[Sprinklerforum] Re: Baled Pulp Fibers
Would this be similar to baled corrugated box board? These are very dense bundles that can only allow a surface burning. Yes it's class 3. Is this stacked on the floor in large piles or in racks? NFPA 13 should have the answer. Art From: James Crawford Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 4:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Baled Pulp Fibers Looking for a little help from those smarter than me We have a client that wants to store baled pulp fiber to a height of 20' but all I can find is NFPA #13 that allows 15' and FM that allows 16'. Is there anything out there that gives a protection scheme for higher storage? Thank You James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Cel: 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca <mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> Web: www.phaserfire.ca <http://www.phaserfire.ca> _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Station Apparatus Bay
Some of the new 5” hose in the bed of the truck is plastic covered flexible material. Art Tiroly From: Brett Peters Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 4:47 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Station Apparatus Bay possibly but OHII covers 10'-0 of class IV commodity, personally I don't see how the fire trucks or equipment in the apparatus bay would take you past that. Thanks Brett Peters General Manager Installation & Design Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd. br...@proudline.ca <mailto:br...@proudline.ca> 780 490 7602 office ext 202 780 490 7605 fax 780 777 0568 cell 780 718 2676 24h Visit us at www.proudline.ca <http://www.proudline.ca/> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact m...@proudline.ca <mailto:m...@proudline.ca> for more information On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 2:43 PM Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> > wrote: I don’t know that I’d call it a “big” difference and for clarification I’m not comparing this to an ignitable liquid warehouse. But when you look at the level of potential fuel loading (not just diesel) and the value of the contents of an apparatus bay which can easily reach into multiple millions of dollars not including the structure and loss of use in a fire event, I’d love to see the rationale behind the development of criteria for buildings like this. It’s just a point of curiosity. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | <mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$> www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS From: Brett Peters mailto:br...@proudline.ca> > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 4:33 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire Station Apparatus Bay Craig I believe there is a big difference between storage requirements for diesel fuel and fuel in a vehicles fuel tank, if the space was used for the storage of diesel fuel than OH2 might not be adequate but this is not a fuel storage warehouse and the amounts of fuel found in the trucks probably falls within the building code allowances for an unprotected building and certainly with the tables for a building protected with a sprinkler system. Thanks Brett Peters General Manager Installation & Design Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd. br...@proudline.ca <mailto:br...@proudline.ca> 780 490 7602 office ext 202 780 490 7605 fax 780 777 0568 cell 780 718 2676 24h Visit us at www.proudline.ca <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.proudline.ca/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!AlZ8AmeMUVxYNoVJPQ7ArPXFalsEVZOJnOdXtSBo72cKeXRdWM_dWE96_m1EBSFYImnCzLFdhDs_yE9t66M$> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact m...@proudline.ca <mailto:m...@proudline.ca> for more information On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 2:23 PM Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> > wrote: It’s funny, if the diesel fuel was in anything other than a truck, it would be EH2. Some of the criteria makes very little sense, especially in cases like this where a fuel spill would most likely end up being shielded from overhead sprinklers and is a non-miscible hydrocarbon. Wait until we have a fire involving an electric fire apparatus. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | <mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$> www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com> > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 2:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Fire Station Apparatus Bay I’ve seen Apparatus Bays in fire stations protected both as OH1 & OH2. Seems per code OH1 (car parking) would be appropriate? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/bvssystemsinc.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!AFrgnB0i9ZV8hwI9dybPcbue3rE1t2eKusy43_5MkD4PAHEE4yJ9GqO7i0TMVkm-8UzBMjzH3ujNQiAL7ew7Dp6x$> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 _ NOTICE - This communication may contain
[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 21 VERSUS 22
Using an ESFR sprinkler at 100 GPM for 12 sprinklers may be more of a cost savings. Art From: Trillium Fire Sprinkler Design INC Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2022 7:53 AM To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 21 VERSUS 22 Thanks Ken. Exactly what I was thinking. Just needed clarification. Troy From: Ken Wagoner mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com> > Sent: December 2, 2022 11:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 21 VERSUS 22 It would be helpful in we were shown where you came up with the references for both a density of .325 and an increase of 175%, and perhaps most of all where you're directed to "22" (guessing you meant Chapter 22?), as that chapter covers the use of CMSA sprinklers. Table 21.4.1.2.2.1 addresses class II, non-encapsulated storage to 25' height, with 8' aisles to figure 21.4.1.2.2.1(b), and curves A or B. Curve a for high temp sprinklers shows 0.325 gpm/ft² over 2,000 ft², which matches what you've quoted. If ordinary temp sprinklers are selected (curve B) the density jumps to 0.375 gpm/ft². And yes, the density is required to be increased per the graph in Figure 21.4.1.7.1 to 175% of the values from the curves when the height of storage exceeds 20'. That would result in densities of ± 0.569 for high temps and ± 0.656 for ordinary temps. I hope this is of some value, Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 500 West Mechanic Street Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 Phone: (760) 745-6181 Visit the website <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK=1> On 12/2/2022 9:23 AM, Trillium Fire Sprinkler Design INC wrote: I have a warehouse that has double row rack storage to 25 feet with 8 foot aisles. Class II commodity non encapsulated. 21 says that .325 density apply the increase of 175% for the 25 foot storage. Using CMDA sprinklers But then says if using CMDA sprinklers use 22. I am confused! Which chapter do I use. _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org> _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire pump package weight ?
Ask a firte pump sales agent, they will know. -Original Message- From: Sean Lockyer Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 12:25 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire pump package weight ? 1500 gpm, 100 hp -Original Message- From: Art Tiroly Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 12:22 AM To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire pump package weight ? What GPM and what HP? -Original Message- From: Sean Lockyer Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 12:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Fire pump package weight ? About how much would you surmise the weight of an electric horizontal split-case fire pump package (include enclosure) would weigh ? Sean Lockyer Project Designer _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire pump package weight ?
What GPM and what HP? -Original Message- From: Sean Lockyer Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 12:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Fire pump package weight ? About how much would you surmise the weight of an electric horizontal split-case fire pump package (include enclosure) would weigh ? Sean Lockyer Project Designer _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
RE: filling a pre-action system with water
The high pressure water in=rush compresses the air in the system. The velocity slows as the air pressure is compressed. I don't believe there is water hammer potential because the air creates a cushion. Art Tiroly ATCO/Tiroly Fire Protection -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 1:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Matt Grise Subject: filling a pre-action system with water I am curious about how single-interlock pre-action systems get filled up with water: When the detectors activate and open the deluge valve but no sprinkler head is open - how quickly does the piping actually fill up with water? Is it fast enough that you need to worry about a water hammer if the piping fills before the heads start to open? I did not know if the supervisory air just kind of oozes out and lets the water in slowly, or if the valve opens, (maybe kicks the pump on) and really blasts it in there. Does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing? I would definitely appreciate some insight into how it actually goes down. Thanks! Matt ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: question about Storage height
Is the spill container open top? That will be an issue. These sound like plastic totes. If the liquid is not combustible the empty tote is still a lot of plastic Art -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Scott Futrell via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Scott Futrell ; Mike Hairfield Subject: RE: question about Storage height You didn't mention what the liquid is. If it is a hazardous material as recognized by the International Fire Code then the 'empty' container is still considered full unless completely cleaned. Scott Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2 Cell: (612) 759-5556 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 8:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Mike Hairfield Subject: Re: question about Storage height It should be 10 feet even though the other container is empty it's still plastic. Mike From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Steve Mackinnon via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Steve Mackinnon ; Peter Howard Subject: question about Storage height Good morning all, We have a storage situation where the liquid commodity is in a 5 foot plastic storage cube, with an equally sized empty plastic container below. The empty container below is only there to act as a spill collection vessel. The question our office has been banging around, what is the storage height??? Would this be considered 5 feet of storage or 10 feet? Would you take any exception to the plastic containers (like when we change the commodity classification with wood to plastic pallets)? Thank you in advance Steven ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesp rinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.orgdata=04%7C 01%7C%7C0d961840310a423de85308d9e0d49405%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435% 7C1%7C0%7C637788025897874973%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ QIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=gZPzEokK%2FC%2F BPf%2FyCzVVjYGR3%2FRAFZEAkLsE2Cn2Qjk%3Dreserved=0 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Attic protection over a storage occupancy
No building size is indicated. Does the building code require protection? Plastic storage may be considered a high hazard. If protection is a code requirement then the attic requires protection. Without protection a fire in the attic will likely cause a total loss of the building and contents. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Mike Morey via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2021 10:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Mike Morey Subject: Attic protection over a storage occupancy Applicable code/standards would be IBC 2012 and its references (NFPA 13 2010 mainly) I'm not coming up with a "why not" for this, but it doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. I have a wood framed "pole barn" being used for plastic storage in racks. The building is a standard 4:12 wood truss building with plywood sheathing at the bottom of the trusses (with a layer of fiberglass batts on them above) creating a flat ceiling at 18' AFF, walls are exposed 2x construction with fiberglass batts. I can't come up with a reason I can't protect the space below the plywood according to the storage requirements (looking at .6/2600 dry system, rack storage of Gp A plastic to 20' max <5' clear, doing CMDA both because they barely have 18" clear and they want a dry system) and the space above as an unused light hazard attic, potentially with "back to back" style attic heads. Anyone see a flaw with this logic, or any other pitfalls to watch for due to this construction scenario? I don't love this scenario but the customer went out of their way to avoid sprinklering the building origina lly and built it to the bottom dollar, but now a new insurance carrier may require it to be protected. Mike Morey CFPS 3229 * NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project Manager * Fire Protection Group Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company 7614 Opportunity Drive * Fort Wayne, IN * 46825 direct 260.487.7824 / cell 260.417.0625 / fax 260.487.7991 email mmo...@shambaugh.com This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR & Obstruction in Light Hazard
I had a similar problem but worked it out with AHJ and he allowed the obstructions with the ESFR's. Art Tiroly -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, February 01, 2021 12:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: James Crawford Subject: ESFR & Obstruction in Light Hazard WE have a warehouse space that is protected with ESFR sprinkler heads, the space is being used by an indoor tennis club. The want to add some additional HVAC and some of the new ducting would obstruct the ESFR sprinkler heads. My question is do we still need to work to the same obstruction rules for this application, fire load is minimal we would be delivering 1200gpm rather then the 150gpm required, just seem like overkill. Opinions please Thank You James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Cel: 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca<mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> Web: www.phaserfire.ca<http://www.phaserfire.ca> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: 13 R in a single family home
For a home worth multiple millions a 10 minute water supply for life safety may not be the best answer for property values. There may be insurance savings to help pay for the extra cost for 13R. Local requirements for high value homes may be the better value for the sprinkler system. Art Tiroly -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Ken Wagoner via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 3:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Ken Wagoner ; Matthew J Willis ; Steve Leyton Subject: Re: 13 R in a single family home Adding a few logs to this fire I have to share that the comment by Matt is very accurate. I've dealt with many AHJ's here in California who when pushed over some issue on a single family home have responded with, "Just do a 13R system," without truly understanding the difference. Here are a few notes which come to mind: * 13R requires an FDC, where 13D does not * 13R requires conformance with NFPA 25, and 13D does not * 13R requires a 30 minute water supply, 13D requires only 10 minutes of water * 13R requires any pump provided to meet NFPA 20 conditions, as Matt noted below. * 13R requires any pressure tank to be both listed, and conform to NFPA 22, 13D only requires conformance to ASME standards, and makes no reference to NFPA 22 in any portion of the text * 13R requires the total number of fixture units to be addressed in the hydraulic calculations, if the supply serves both the fire sprinkler and domestic water systems, 13D has no such requirement. * 13R requires a hydrostatic test conforming to NFPA 13 if more than 20 sprinklers are provided, and at 50 psi higher than the maximum system pressure if less than 20 sprinklers are in the system, 13D requires hydrostatic testing at system pressure if no FDC is provided. I've almost run out of breath preaching to various AHJ's - if you wish to have calculations flowing up to four sprinklers, rather than the 2 sprinklers routinely called for in 13D, just say so. sincerely, *Ken Wagoner, SET *Parsley Consulting* *350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 *Escondido, California 92025 *Phone 760-745-6181* Visit the website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> * ** On 8/13/2020 11:57 AM, Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum wrote: > Common theme seems to be Townhomes. > > Just wanted throw this out.., > > Beware the subtle shift from 13D to 13R. It is more than just going from a 2 > head calc to a possible 4 head calc and larger pipe. > > 13D is very careful to use the word "Pump" only. NFPA 20 is not referenced in > Chapter 2. > > 13R..., Not so much. > > Happy hunting! > > R/ > Matt > > > Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP > Design Manager /3-D Specialist > Rapid Fire Protection Inc. > 1530 Samco Road > Rapid City, SD 57702 > Office-605.348.2342 > Direct Line-605.593.5063 > Cell-605.391.2733 > Fax:-605.348.0108 > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > On Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 11:53 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Steve Leyton > Subject: RE: 13 R in a single family home > > We're working on a project right now in San Diego with four 4-story townhomes > in a row and it's been code classified as R2; we're designing per NFPA 13 on > that one. > > Steve L. > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 10:29 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Mark.Phelps > Subject: RE: 13 R in a single family home > > San Francisco. > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 8:06 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Kyle.Montgomery > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: 13 R in a single family home > > Out of curiosity, where are people building single family homes that 4+ > stories? I don't think I've ever seen one. > > -Kyle M > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > On Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 7:27 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Matthew J Willis > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: 13 R in a single family home > > Ahh. Excellent catch for us. > > > Other requirements had me as well on mine. > > Thanks for the assist! > > R/ > Matt > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > On Behalf Of Steven Jenkins via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 7:49 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkl
RE: Exemption for sprinklers
What does the building code say regarding this construction and occupancy? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\10NA5B) via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 3:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\10NA5B) Subject: Exemption for sprinklers NFPA 101, 7.14 (2018) permits sprinklers to be omitted from "Normally Unoccupied Building Service Equipment Support Areas". These support areas are not intended to be accessed by persons for maintenance. However, they might have man-doors installed that would make them accessible and when they are over 45,000 square feet, they are required to have man doors installed. There is a provision in NFPA 101 that states the following: 7.14.2.2 Egress from normally unoccupied building service equipment support areas shall be provided by doors complying with 7.2.1 where the normally unoccupied building service equipment support area exceeds 90,000 ft2 (8370 m2) in buildings protected throughout by an approved, supervised automatic sprinkler system in accordance with 9.7.1.1(1). 7.14.2.3 The absence of sprinklers in the normally unoccupied building service equipment support area, as permitted by an exemption of NFPA 13, shall not cause a building to be classified as nonsprinklered for purposes of applying the provisions of 7.14.2.2. I am looking for the exemption in NFPA 13 that would allow a space to have man-doors, and also allow the sprinklers to be omitted from that space so that I can apply 7.14.2.3. Can anyone help by showing me where that might exist in NFPA 13? This provision was added to the 2012 edition of NFPA 101. Thanks Pete Larrimer VA -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Covered Parking in 13R
Check with the AHJ. I’m not sure you can change from 13 to 13R in the same building. You can use residential rules in a 13 system of course. Do you have combustible concealed spaces in the residential? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 321 via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:02 PM To: Art Tiroly via Sprinklerforum Cc: 321 Subject: Re: Covered Parking in 13R I think so. I have 2 just like this that I am figuring this way13 R upstairs NFPA Parkling downstairs. John W. Farabee 561-707-5150 On Friday, May 29, 2020, 05:50:22 PM EDT, Art Tiroly via Sprinklerforum wrote: Residential use above a parking garage changes the occupancy requirement to a mixed use and NFPA 13 design criteria is required. Therefore protect the garage. Am I on the right track here? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 5:55 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: John Irwin Subject: Covered Parking in 13R I have a 3-story, 13R building. Type IIB construction. On the “engineered” bid set, no sprinklers are shown in the covered parking area. This area is inside the footprint of the first floor, with 2nd floor units being located above the parking area. There are no garage doors and the parking spaces are not separated. To sprinkle or not to sprinkle? John Irwin West Coast Branch Manager Quick Response Fire Protection www.quickresponsefl.com Office: 844-9QUICKFL Cell: 727-282-9243 Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760 East Coast: 3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934 24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” – Benjamin Franklin _ <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Covered Parking in 13R
Residential use above a parking garage changes the occupancy requirement to a mixed use and NFPA 13 design criteria is required. Therefore protect the garage. Am I on the right track here? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 5:55 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: John Irwin Subject: Covered Parking in 13R I have a 3-story, 13R building. Type IIB construction. On the "engineered" bid set, no sprinklers are shown in the covered parking area. This area is inside the footprint of the first floor, with 2nd floor units being located above the parking area. There are no garage doors and the parking spaces are not separated. To sprinkle or not to sprinkle? John Irwin West Coast Branch Manager Quick Response Fire Protection www.quickresponsefl.com Office: 844-9QUICKFL Cell: 727-282-9243 Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760 East Coast: 3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934 24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR HOSE ALLOWANCE
ESFR hose allowance is 250 gpm. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Trillium Fire Sprinkler Design Inc. via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, February 03, 2020 6:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Trillium Fire Sprinkler Design Inc. Subject: ESFR HOSE ALLOWANCE I am using Table 16.2.3.1. Nowhere does it state what the hose allowance requirement is? I only have 18' storage It is stated in Table 16.3.3.1 Over 25' storage I know from previous projects it has been 250 gpm but I am just trying to find it in the code. Any help would be appreciated. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: What storage class is this?
The exposed plastic milk crates drive this into the exposed plastic storage hazard. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Richard Mote via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Richard Mote Subject: What storage class is this? Contract documents call out use group classification S-2 Low Hazard Storage (46,000SF) This is to be a dry system. Commodity being stored in a warehouse cooler area min 37° 49' building with 25' max storage height, single and multirow racks. Milk in plastic, glass, or plastic coated paper containers in plastic milk crates on wood pallets. And eggs in plastic or pulp paper egg cartons in cardboard cartons on wood pallets. None of the pallets are supposed to be incapsulated. I've spent several hours looking through the storage chapters and can't find a category this fits neatly into. Richard L. Mote CET Rimrock Design Services, LLC -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Underground Sprinkler Lines
My client is on a 5 year plan to replace 75-80 YO cast iron UG fire line that is failing. There is a 5 YO booster pump that churns at 190-200 psi and breaks the sections of 5000 Ft. loop. The new PVC 8” and 10” is holding well once they got the thrust blocks and mechanical fittings set properly. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Skyler Bilbo Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 5:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Underground Sprinkler Lines Has anyone installed CPVC piping for an entire fire sprinkler system underground? We are being asked more and more on one story buildings to install wet systems where our mains are in the corridor and lines are in the walls. This involves a whole lot of drilling of 2x4's and installing a bunch of protective nailer plates (a whole lot of man hours). Seems to me like we could do it faster using a trencher, installing the vast majority of the piping underground with stub ups into the walls for sidewalls. I suppose in order to do this correctly, we would have to install a drain, perhaps by stubbing into a sump pit somewhere? I know I have seen a small amount of CPVC piping installed underground in apartments that have open stairwells between units, and those don't have a way to drain the underground portion, even though this would be after the riser controls and fall under NFPA 13(R). I'm really interested to know if anyone has done it, and/or if there are any big reasons not to. To my knowledge, this isn't specifically addressed in our standards. Thanks, Skyler Bilbo 217-819-6404 Cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Well Water - Raw or non-raw
Would the well be considered as potable drining water? Particulates are the problem. If the well draws on a lot of sand it is likely raw water. What is the likelihood of particulates plugging a 1" sprinkler? You could add a strainer to remove particulates. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 5:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Well Water - Raw or non-raw Would a well be considered a raw or non-raw water source? We have a project close by a river that will need a water supply other than the municipal supply (it is not sufficient). The system will be an ESFR system, so if the well is considered raw, then each sprinkler would need return bends and that is going to be prohibitive. <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> MFP_logo_F Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.highta il.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C 14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2 wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linked in.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77% 7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7L sZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Storage Occupancy - Pipe Schedule
I recently did a system upgrade of an OH pipe schedule system with 130 SF/head.. Good water supply and a low storage height made it work easily. Back then only hazardous liquids were designed to extra hazard pipe schedule and K8 - 90 SF/head. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Spencer Tomlinson Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 5:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Storage Occupancy - Pipe Schedule All - I have a unique situation, unique to me anyway. Pipe schedule storage occupancy installed per the 1969 edition of NFPA 13. It looks to me that NFPA 231 didn't come out until 1972, meaning storage would have fallen under what I assume was one of the extra hazard curves in NFPA 13 in 1969 (unless I'm missing something or misinterpreting this, I have a copy of neither but would greatly appreciate anyone who may have access sharing). NFPA 13, 2016 edition will allow for the use of a pipe schedule extension of an existing "extra hazard" system per 11.2.2.3(2). I have hydraulically calculated the extension, and it results in huge piping. Which is fine, but there may be an argument by others that pipe schedule would be allowed. Now, I know that it is certainly not the best approach - but that aside - has anyone run into an instance such as this where the pipe schedule extension has been allowed/approved? Thanks to all in advance. Spencer Tomlinson Principal, PE red logo Ph: 316-202-6412 Fax: 316-202-2346 Cell: 620-955-7293 www.tomlinsonfire.com <http://www.tomlinsonfire.com/> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Indoor Trampoline Park
Due to the change of occupancy the sprinkler system should match the requirements of the new occupancy. If quick response sprinklers are required for code compliance then they need to be changed. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Indoor Trampoline Park Some versions of this discussion have come up over the past weeks. Were having a bit of an issue with an AHJ in converting a Sports Authority to in indoor park. Originally we submitted as Light Hazard because its an assembly occupancy. I didnt necessarily agree with this but anyway The AHJ then wanted all sprinklers changed because they are 286° sprinklers and thus, not permitted in LH. So I spoke to said AHJ and told him I really felt this should be at least an OH occupancy anyway, because of the miscellaneous foam padding and plastics. He agreed (of course verbally and not in writing). We made those changes and a couple more he asked for and thought we were good to go. Today, we received this notice: Mr. Irwin, Just a follow up to our phone call earlier. Thank you for speaking with me earlier. The existing Fire Sprinkler System was designed and engineered to protect a specific hazard for the previous occupancy. There has been concerns about the potential need for reengineering since the beginning of this project. Sprinkler Systems in Assemblies are intended for life safety and are designed as light hazard occupancies with fast activation per NFPA 13. The proposed Fire Alarm System does not include smoke protection and will be primarily activated by the Sprinkler System. The proposed plans are for ordinary group II hazard with high temperature, standard response sprinklers. A delay in activation of the Fire Sprinkler and Fire Alarm Systems, may result in an adverse effect on life safety. This delay may increase the amount of fire damage. Additionally this delay and the proposed 8K sprinklers may increase the amount of water damage. Please provide a signed and sealed letter from the Engineer of Record documenting the effects the proposed fire protection systems will have on occupant notification, occupant evacuation, life safety, and property conservation. Options: * The Engineers letter adequately documents that life safety will not be adversely effected. * The Engineers letter indicates a change in hazard classification and sprinklers. * The Engineers letter indicates the addition of full smoke protection to the fire alarm system. Please be advised that Engineers letter along with the most recent revision will be will be sent out for a third party review by a Fire Protection Engineer. Thank you, Id especially like to know what Matt and Pete think about this. The question is, is it always ok to over protect an occupancy? Assuming this is a LH assembly (which I dont agree it is) can I protect per OH if I want to? As a sprinkler contractor, do I have to take alarm activation in to consideration at all? How would you proceed with this? John Irwin Quick Response Fire Protection jir...@quickresponsefl.com CELL 727-282-9243 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Parts Mezzanine
What is storage class? How wide are shelves for picking. Solid shelves? Are there possible obstructions on the walkways? How high is each level? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 5:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Parts Mezzanine We have a parts mezzanine that uses pick shelves with grated walkways between. It is about 130' x 186' with three levels. Aisles are 3'-4". The roof system is ESFR K17 sprinkler heads @ 52psi. I am using FM 8-9 but cannot seem to find what the design criteria for the mezzanine would be. My first thought was to protect it like a normal storage mezz but the code makes it look more like in-rack protection. Any opinions out there Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Pipe Sch Water Supplies
This is a 55 year old pipe schedule system 130 SF head. This is a change of use and requires a density design. Existing system does not work hydraulically. Therefore I am creating a calculated system which requires replacing small pipe at end of BL’s with 1.5”. Is this not necessary? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 6:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pipe Sch Water Supplies Not sure East you mean: Not meant fro warehousing but you are converting from a F occupancy to warehousing. Nonetheless,tyhere is no schedule for storage. That was deleted many cycles ago. Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives On Oct 29, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Art Tiroly wrote: What is the sprinkler spacing 90-130 SF? Light or OH? Not meant for warehousing. I'm working on one now converting from factory to warehousing. 1”, 1”, 1-1/4” does not calculate at 130 SF/head. Up sizing to get .20/1500 for 8-10’ storage of household furnishings and storage. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [ <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark Eckard Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 4:48 PM To: <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Pipe Sch Water Supplies I remember in some of the older NFPA-13s there were minimum water supply requirements for Pipe Scheduled systems. Does any one have that information? I thought I had it, but I cant seem to locate it. Thank You Mark E. Eckard SET Fire Protection Services, LLC 2126 US Hwy. 41 North Perry, GA 31069 Office: 478-987-7319 (Perry) or (770) 702-0965 (Metro Atlanta) Mobile: 478-244-6653 SYL-216 <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Pipe Sch Water Supplies
What is the sprinkler spacing 90-130 SF? Light or OH? Not meant for warehousing. I'm working on one now converting from factory to warehousing. 1”, 1”, 1-1/4” does not calculate at 130 SF/head. Up sizing to get .20/1500 for 8-10’ storage of household furnishings and storage. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark Eckard Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 4:48 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Pipe Sch Water Supplies I remember in some of the older NFPA-13s there were minimum water supply requirements for Pipe Scheduled systems. Does any one have that information? I thought I had it, but I cant seem to locate it. Thank You Mark E. Eckard SET Fire Protection Services, LLC 2126 US Hwy. 41 North Perry, GA 31069 Office: 478-987-7319 (Perry) or (770) 702-0965 (Metro Atlanta) Mobile: 478-244-6653 SYL-216 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Converting from ESFR to CMDA - Spacing Issues
Can the ESFR's be left in place and just add in rack sprinklers as needed? Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Monday, October 08, 2018 7:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Converting from ESFR to CMDA - Spacing Issues I think you're right. It just doesn't seem like that should be the case. How can this spacing allowance be appropriate for the notoriously unforgiving ESFR criteria, but somehow not OK for the traditionally much more forgiving standard spray sprinklers. Or that Factory Mutual, who you could say has more "skin in the game" than NFPA, would allow it if it were a poor practice. You know what I'm saying? Do you guys think that this spacing arrangement is intentionally prohibited by NFPA 13, or that it's more of a scenario that just isn't specifically addressed? In other words, does anyone think that a sprinkler system with standard spray heads spaced at 10, 10, 9, 11, 10, 10, 9, 11 (per ESFR requirements) would actually be deficient as a result? I'm thinking about taking this to the AHJ to see if they would allow it, but I don't want to suggest doing it if there is good reason to believe that it is a "bad fire protection practice". I appreciate the input. Kyle Montgomery cid:image001.gif@01CAA0CE.8D8066F0 Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 <mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> kmontgom...@aerofire.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 2:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Converting from ESFR to CMDA - Spacing Issues FM allows it because all of their sprinklers are "storage" sprinklers. It doesn't matter if it is CMDA, CMSA or ESFR, it is a "storage" sprinkler for FM so the extended requirements are in play. I don't think you will find any forgiveness on this issue in 13. Every time we've dealt with this in the past, we have had to respace sprinklers along the branchline when that happens. MFP_logo_F Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 1:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Converting from ESFR to CMDA - Spacing Issues We're looking at a project where a portion of an existing ESFR building is being converted to store cartooned expanded plastics. It looks like we've settled on a design criteria that involves changing out the sprinklers at the deck to 11.2K standard spray sprinklers at a 0.45 density and adding 2 levels of in-rack sprinklers. This issue I need to address is this: Existing ESFR sprinklers took advantage of the spacing allowance to avoid being obstructed by structural members. The lines are 10 ft on-center and the head spacing is 10, 10, 9, 11, 10, 10, 9, 11. The new upright sprinklers are limited to 100 square foot maximum spacing. Is there any good option/allowance where we could just replace the heads and keep the spacing? Or are we going to need to relocate every fourth head to maintain 10-foot spacing all the way down the branch line. I'm pretty sure FM Global allows for this, but I haven't found anything in NFPA 13 outside of the ESFR section. It sure seems like if it's appropriate for ESFR heads (arguably the most finicky with regard to spacing/obstructions) that the same spacing should be OK for standard spray sprinklers. Kyle Montgomery cid:image001.gif@01CAA0CE.8D8066F0 Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 <mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> kmontgom...@aerofire.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sprinkler heads popping off randomly
If the fusible link flies apart it is due to heat. High pressure can cause a head to leak but not open the link. Sprinklers with fusible links can slowly melt or creep then the link will eventually open. There must have been excessive heat at the roof at various times. I would check sprinklers head links near those that actuated. Links will start to fail with the link solder cracking Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 5:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sprinkler heads popping off randomly Probably a buildup of pressure from heat rejection off the roof. Check system gauges. A good pilot operated relief valve would open to relieve and close. From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Jeff Normand Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 5:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprinkler heads popping off randomly Does it only happen in the summertime or hot days? 165 F sprinklers at the roof of a warehouse, this would normally require 200 F sprinklers. That would be my first guess but if it is only 1 sprinkler at a time, I just don't know. On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:20 PM Larry Block, Property Manager wrote: Hi to all! I manage a number of most warehousing industrial parks around Los Angeles and only 1 of them has a problem with heads popping off for no apparent reason. We really need some help here in identifying the cause and its correction. Many have said to just replace them but who is to say that this will not happen again soon, if not later. The facts: 1. Concrete tilt up bldg from 1967 with its roof at 20’ H. 2. Heads are Reliable model C with the fusible link 3. Heads will get the 50 year UL testing in 4 years (though I assume the 165degF rating is not relevant here) 4. We have lost 7 heads over 15 years, with 3 in the last 4 months! 5. The link assemblies are never found but the remaining “rings” show no issues. The bronze seats of the head’s water port are always in perfect condition. 6. We see that the head’s “knuckle” that is opposite the fusible link is usually perfectly aligned, but a few of them are offset up to a 1/16” and it appears that when they move like that, they are rotating in an arc from the pivot points . 7. The water utility swears that at the time of these events, there are no pressure surges. 8. No more than one head has ever gone off at a time and are not just at one location or riser. 9. A nearby similar bldg of ours from 1968 with the same heads has never had one such event. We have entertained the possibility of water pressure, birds, electrolysis, dezincification, vibration and are at a loss. Any helpful thoughts? Thanks, Larry Block, Property Manager <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Image removed by sender. Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: No Jockey Pump
What is city water static pressure? What is the pressure when pump is running? Likely an omission by installer. Could it have been removed? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: No Jockey Pump Hi group, Found a 50 yr. old fire pump at a business that didn't have a jockey pump. Am I missing something. Thanks Tom Reinhardt Fire Inspector/Plan Reviewer Skokie Fire Department 7424 Niles Center Road Skokie, IL 60077 Office: 847-982-5342 thomas.reinha...@skokie.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Self storage warehouses
They will allow car storage with fuel in the tank. Metal partitions will easily transmit heat to the adjacent unit. No propane tanks. Corp allowed to store overflow stock or equipment. 40,000 SF in low bay. Corridors will have drop ceilings with pendant sprinklers. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:39 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Re: Self storage warehouses Make sure they have restrictions on things like rubber tires, flammable liquids, etc. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On Jul 26, 2018 at 3:31 PM, mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > wrote: Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with metal sided partitions. Household goods, mattresses, foam cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A plastic. Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956. This is a change of occupancy. The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard. The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density. Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less? I could not find anything in archives. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Self storage warehouses
Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with metal sided partitions. Household goods, mattresses, foam cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A plastic. Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956. This is a change of occupancy. The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard. The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density. Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less? I could not find anything in archives. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Misc Rack Storage
Two rows of in-rack sprinklers may solve the rack problem. Art Tiroly From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:23 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Misc Rack Storage Regardless of the trailers, do I need to provide .6/2000 for the racks? If so, do I need to do that for the entire 5,000 sqft area? Seems excessive. John Irwin DynaFire Inc. – “Same Day – Next Day” From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Misc Rack Storage I tend to agree – trailers potentially shielding fire load within from sprinklers above (5.4.2). SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 7:06 AM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Re: Misc Rack Storage Wouldn’t the trailer storage bring it up to EH2? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On May 17, 2018 at 9:47 AM, mailto:john.ir...@dynafire.com> > wrote: Here’s the situation … I have a 5,000 sqft, (currently) ordinary hazard mixed use space. The new tenant intends to store two emergency disaster management trailers in this space. However, along two walls, they want to put a 3-teir rack with storage up to 20’ in height. TOS in the center of the unit is 23-9. The racks will contain a mix of group A plastic, emergency supplies in plastic totes, with lids, on non-combustible pallets. Do I really have to upgrade this entire space from OH II to .6/2000? Do I tell them they should just not store over 12’? John Irwin Fire Sprinkler Specialist DynaFire, Inc. – “Same Day – Next Day” 727-282-9243 – Cell “A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption on our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider on our business. He is a part of it. We are not doing him a favour by serving him. He is doing us a favour by giving us an opportunity to do so.” ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: main drain flows
What is the fire flow test for this system? What size is the underground fire line. What size is the riser to be.? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tony Cetani Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 5:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: main drain flows They are looking for the GPM flows out of our main drain during a main drain tests. Since a lot of water is going to be released during the test they want to make sure the sanitary sewer can handle all the water with the main drain fully open under city pressure. Tony From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 1:53 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: main drain flows Tell them you want a hub drain with a self-priming 4 trap. Itll resolve both 1¼ and 2 main drain discharges. Steve From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tony Cetani Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 1:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: main drain flows Long time reader, first time writer ..actually not that long Im a fairly new designer. We have a jurisdiction where they require the main drain to drain to a sanitary sewer and the contractor is asking what the flows will be so they can size their SS line accordingly. The sprinkler system hasnt been designed yet and they said they need to know right now so they can finish their design and submit for permit. Is there a way to figure this out (or get a ball park) just based off city water flow numbers? Thank you Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Special Designs of Storage Protection Section 20.5 (2013 ed.)
Are the aisles narrow like 30-48”? The cat walks are likely considered obstruction to the ESFR roof system. Therefore QR sprinklers are required below the cat walks. See Section 20.7.3. for ESFR. Does this qualify with these 10 requirements? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Zachary Siegrist Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 4:34 PM To: Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Special Designs of Storage Protection Section 20.5 (2013 ed.) All, I am an AHJ and was called to inspect a installation for protection of carton record storage for a single- level catwalk. The existing ceiling level protection is an ESFR system. Section 20.5.6.2.1 states that ceiling sprinklers spaced to cover a maximum of 100 SF shall be standard response spray sprinklers with K-factors per Section 12.6. Is this explicitly stating that there can't be an ESFR system at the deck level (35 feet AFF) b/c of its fast response element? Does Section 12.6.6 make this permissible? Appreciate any feedback I can get. Zach --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: PVC drain line
Creating a PVC drain header for the branch lines should not be done. Same reason as not running PVC with sprinkler head tees. Not an approved material. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Scott Futrell Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:24 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: PVC drain line Yes, I do think that is the way to go, but it is a sprink contractor making the suggestion. I'm trying to justify a response one way or the other. Scott Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2 Cell: (612) 759-5556 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 5:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: PVC drain line I thought I was going to be called crazy for suggesting a valve at the end of each line and then running it in PVC. It would be expensive for sure. Let me know if you are going to go that way and I will be stock in the valve suppliers. Practically, run it in steel and call it good. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesi gn.com%2F=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da4 2e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2 FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D=0> http://www.mfpdesign.com <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebo ok.com%2Fpages%2FMFP-Design-LLC%2F92218417692=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b 4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C6363790166 77342180=H%2BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk%3D=0> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.highta il.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C 14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2 wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linked in.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77% 7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7L sZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Matthew J Willis Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 3:13 PM To: Forum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Subject: RE: PVC drain line So, The answer would be no. Right? Plastic is fine for drain, not listed. But all piping before the valve is. R/ Matt Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid On Mar 30, 2018 4:10 PM, Scott Futrell <sco...@ffcdi.com <mailto:sco...@ffcdi.com> > wrote: I can't see a valve at the end of each line being practical. Then you'd need a lift to drain them when you wanted to use it and these are >25K square foot systems, so many valves. Scott Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2 Cell: (612) 759-5556 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Normand Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 5:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: PVC drain line I say it's fine if you have drain valves at the end of each line and transition to pvc after the valve. But that may be expensive. So I say pvc is ok after the drain valve. But is that practical? On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 4:59 PM, Scott Futrell <sco...@ffcdi.com <mailto:sco...@ffcdi.com> > wrote: A Friday afternoon conundrum for the group. I have a client with corrosion issues in several wet, twenty year old, ESFR, warehouse systems. These are center-fed systems. Yes, center-fed. So all of the branchlines are dead ends. Corrosion scale and sludge is pushed into the ends of the lines. Flushing will be done. End of the day though the client wants to add a tie-in drain line connecting all the ends of all the lines to drain/flush in the future. It has been suggested that schedule 40 PVC might be used for these tie-in drains. My response so far: Practically, plastic should be okay. But, it would not be recognized in NFPA 13. Also, because it could fail in a fire, and we would expect high challenge fires in warehous
RE: Butane
How is the butane contained In steel high pressure cylinders or something larger? If the vessels are kept cool with water spray during a fire then it is safe. Leaks could have flash or explosion hazards potential. Need more info. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 3:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Butane I am looking at a space for a client that want to store butane, a lot of butane. I have been looking through NFPA #30 & #32 for some guidance but I am still unsure, as one of the MSDS sheets says to protect it as outlined in NFPA #30 but my brain is saying it is more like a Level 3 Aerosol. The building is protected with ESFR K17 @ 35psi Any words of wisdom out there? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20180320/15b72ced/attachment.html> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Residential Sprinklers
Using 5.6K QR heads will change the hydraulic calculations and minimum flows allowed by residential sprinklers. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed A. Roisum, SET Sent: Monday, March 05, 2018 4:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Residential Sprinklers Are residential sprinklers required for dwelling units in NFPA 13R? It appears as though they can be QR or residential in the 2012 IBC (903.3.2). For some reason I had in my mind that they needed to be residential within the dwelling unit or sleeping unit?? Thanks. Reed R. Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | http://www.kfiengineers.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Tire Storage
I believe that means a HE foam system plus a sprinkler system with a .30 density. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tony Silva Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 3:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Tire Storage NFPA 13, 2014 Table 18.4(a) Some "Sprinkler Discharge Densities" are given as (for example): "0.30 plus high expansion foam" Does this mean the roof system needs to be high expansion foam with a density of 0.3? I'm just confused with the use of the word "plus" and want to make sure it doesn't mean anything else. Thanks, Tony -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20180223/131521aa/attachment.html> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Apartment Crawl Space
Check out the residential rules in NFPA 13, Section 8.4.5. Similar to 13-R. 4 heads. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 2:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Apartment Crawl Space Looking at a (5) story apartment building so I assume it would need to be per NFPA-13 correct? With that being said is there anything in the Standard that addresses the crawl space underneath? Concealed Space? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com <http://bvssystemsinc.com/> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: High-Rise with Secondary Water Supply
In our jurisdiction the backflow would be required where it enters the building from underground. A long run of black steel pipe is not allowed without a BFP assembly. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 3:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: High-Rise with Secondary Water Supply I’m working on a high-rise that has two water supply lead-ins. One comes in adjacent to the pump room, but the secondary supply has to run 200+ feet through the building. The plan was to have the backflow preventors in the fire pump room. Am I violating any code requirements and/or good design practices by doing this? (Note: I know that I’ll need an appropriate distance between the backflows and the pump suction and/or to use OS valves). A couple of potential concerns have been raised: 1. 200-plus feet of “unmonitored” pipe running through the building. I guess there is some concern you could have a leak and not have any kind of alarm. Is there any code requirement to have a flow switch within a certain distance from where the water supply enters the building? 2. Are there specific code requirements for the pipe type between the underground lead-in and the backflow prevention device? We’ve been asked to provide galvanized pipe in similar scenarios before, but it was suggested that that might not be AWWA-compliant. Thanks for your input. Kyle Montgomery cid:image001.gif@01CAA0CE.8D8066F0 Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 kmontgom...@aerofire.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: FDC sizing on wet automatic standpipes
Is this a residential or light hazard 8 story building? Do you have a 1000 gpm fire pump from city water? Electric or diesel? Reliable power with no outages? 3 - 4 or more standpipe risers? Then you can get answers. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 11:05 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: FDC sizing on wet automatic standpipes I'm not lucky enough to be able to treat the FDC on a wet automatic standpipe as supplemental am I? We have a building with a combined sprinkler and standpipe system that's wet automatic. Building is 8 stories, but separated. etc. etc. Since the standpipe is wet automatic, the FDC isn't the only supply source, so do we still have to calculate it hydraulically? Total standpipe demand is 1000 GPM We're using NFPA 14, 2013 edition. Basically, I'm trying to figure out if its OK to run 4" to the FDC and use a single Siamese instead of 6" piping to a 4-way or two Siamese connections. Benjamin Young --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: lag bolts
Trapeze to spread the load? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: lag bolts Sorry I should have clarified, this is for hangers not EQ bracing Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 roc...@norcalfire.com www.norcalfire.com <http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mitchell, Scott Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: lag bolts Through bolt? J. Scott Mitchell, PE Senior Fire Protection Engineer Mission Engineering CNS Y-12 | 865-576-5258 CNS PTX | 806-477-5883 thMYA3SSEP From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: lag bolts NFPA 13 9.1.5.3.2 states that if 2½ long screws cant be used then 2 can but spacing cant exceed 10 .whats one to do if 3 lags cant be used? We have a 6 main and only 2½ x 12 wood joists to attach to. Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 roc...@norcalfire.com www.norcalfire.com <http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Parking Under MTA Tracks
An recent arson car fire beneath a bridge structure caused the collapse of the steel structure and bridge deck on I-85 in Atlanta. It will take months to repair. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 2:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Parking Under MTA Tracks That is an approach I never thought of, I focused on the tracks and not the concept of the structure. Like you said , I am not sure what occupancy group it would fall under, but technically a structure no different than any other building. Mike Stossel SET 400dpiLogoCropped 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Cordiner Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 2:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Parking Under MTA Tracks Mike, NYC BC 903.2.10.3 Parking Garages, states an automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings classified as enclosed parking garages in accordance with section 406.4 or where open or enclosed parking garage is located beneath other occupancy groups. I wish I could tell you which occupancy group elevated train tracks fall under but regardless the only exception is an R-3 so automatic sprinklers appear to be required. I've attached a link to the BC site. Hope this helps. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/buildings/codes/2014-construction-codes.page Regards, Wayne T. Cordiner, Jr. 917-426-5844 On Jun 27, 2017, at 19:22, Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com> wrote: Does anyone know of an NFPA code that addresses parking under train tracks? I have a customer in New York City that is going to rent the space under the tracks for parking. One of the requirements that New York City has made is that proper fire protection is provided, but gave no indication as to what this is. I checked NFPA 130 thinking that standpipes maybe required, but I could not find any information pertaining to this scenario. Any ideas or direction is greatly appreciated, and thank you in advance for the help. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would set. John Paulsen – SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P – 614-782-2438 F – 614-782-2374 C – 614-348-8206 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials. Now, using Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from doing an entire system in it. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote: Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: Thanks. How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system? That is important to convey Ary From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Normand Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire system. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: They need store packaging material, idle pallets. Ceiling is also too costly. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. What are they storing? Could they put in a false ceiling? Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse. He does not want to heat the building. Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high building are not available. I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building. Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation. This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines and cross mains. In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler system. What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from freezing. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 <tel:%28216%29%20621-8899> 216-570-7030 <tel:%28216%29%20570-7030> cell <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Image removed by sender. Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses
RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
Thank you for all your comments. I want to get this building heated and not do a heat trace system. I will keep fighting to keep them from making this mistake. I have offered them an HVAC PE to do a work up but they don’t want to spend the money. They don’t like engineers or construction managers. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials. Now, using Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from doing an entire system in it. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote: Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: Thanks. How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system? That is important to convey Ary From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Normand Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire system. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: They need store packaging material, idle pallets. Ceiling is also too costly. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. What are they storing? Could they put in a false ceiling? Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse. He does not want to heat the building. Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high building are not available. I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building. Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation. This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines and cross mains. In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler system. What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from freezing. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 <tel:%28216%29%20621-8899> 216-570-7030 <tel:%28216%29%20570-7030> cell <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
Thanks. How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system? That is important to convey Ary From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Normand Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire system. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: They need store packaging material, idle pallets. Ceiling is also too costly. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. What are they storing? Could they put in a false ceiling? Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse. He does not want to heat the building. Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high building are not available. I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building. Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation. This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines and cross mains. In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler system. What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from freezing. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
What about using Single Interlock Pre-action. We got a bid for a "Quell" pre-action dry system with detection that is crazy expensive with a 2500 gpm fire pump. Good city water is adequate for an ESFR system without a pump from a 20" water main. What is the poor reliability aspect Concern? Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. ? You could use heat detection in lieu of smoke detection depending on environmental conditions. Heat tracing a complete system is a disaster waiting to happen IMHO. Also the Heat trace system must be electronically supervised to insure operability. So he will need a fire alarm system for it to connect to. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 craig.pr...@ch2m.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. [EXTERNAL] I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse. He does not want to heat the building. Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high building are not available. I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building. Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation. This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines and cross mains. In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler system. What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from freezing. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
They need store packaging material, idle pallets. Ceiling is also too costly. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. What are they storing? Could they put in a false ceiling? Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse. He does not want to heat the building. Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high building are not available. I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building. Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation. This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines and cross mains. In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler system. What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from freezing. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Heating cable and 1" wrap.
I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse. He does not want to heat the building. Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high building are not available. I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building. Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation. This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines and cross mains. In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler system. What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from freezing. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Pump pads
I saw it done some years ago by pipe fitters and it made me laugh. The fittings were below the concrete floor so they gouged to floor for the flanges. If you need to go back underground the ell won’t fit at the floor. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 12:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Pump pads We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Steam Driven Fire Pumps
I have seen a seen steam turbine driven fire pump about 30 years ago. Call a fire pump rep and they should know. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 3:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam Driven Fire Pumps A building owner needs a fire pump and would like steam driven. Are these even made/approved anymore, for new installations? thanks in advance! Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dip tanks
A safer solvent wash tank would have an automatic closing lid actuated by a fusible link. Would a Stoddard solvent with a flash point over 100*F be acceptable? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 3:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Dip tanks I have been looking through NFPA #34 (2007) to find out if there is a minimum or maximum size for a dip tank and the requirements for them We have a client with a small dip tank for cleaning parts prior to powder coating, the tank holds less than 2 gallons of flammable liquid and has a surface area of less than 2 ft². The tank is metal and has a lid when not in use. The tank is in a ventilated area, inside a paint booth. This is a small operation and the bake oven is also in the paint booth, the concern I see is the electrical associated with the bake ovens and the proximity to the dip tank. All the dipping is manual. The sequence is dipping, drying, power coating then baking, like I said small operation Is there anything I am missing. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sketching software
You could make PDF's details from AutoCAD drawings to add to documents. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Scott Futrell Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 1:24 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Sketching software Does anyone have suggestions for software to make good, neat, details for use on a desktop or Android tablet? Not AutoCad or HydraCad, just something to use to make details to put in reports, letters, presentations. To make details of pipe and fittings both above ground and underground? Thanks in advance, Scott Futrell Futrell Fire Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2 Cell: (612) 759-5556 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2
Get a 3000 gpm flow test with multiple hydrants as required. What size is the city main? With 180 gpm per head you need bigger pipe to lower pump pressure. (I do hydraulic analysis to solve problems like this.) Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Colin Carew (Cambridge) Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 4:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 The system demand is 2210.4 , From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: April-06-17 4:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 You can't use the PRV to relieve excess pressure under normal conditions due to an over designed pump. There can be unexpected times in a municipal supply where pressure spikes occur for various reasons. If your pump selection puts you close to the maximum system working pressure under normal conditions and a spike in the supply were to occur, with no means of relief, downstream system damage could occur. One other concern over this selection is that it is a 1500 gpm pump with only a 1583 gpm tested source flow rate. The pump may not be capable of reaching the 150 % mark unless you know if the municipal supply can actually provide more than 1583 gpm. Not knowing the actual system demands makes it difficult to address this issue any farther. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 craig.pr...@ch2m.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 4:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 [EXTERNAL] Looks like you could be above 200 PSI churn or system pressure. The standard (2013 referenced) does not allow you to use the relief as a means of blowing off excess pressure above 175. Tom Is the 140 psi total pressure or pump rating? The pressure relief valve comes into play if the combination of supply pressure and pump pressure exceeds the allowable system pressure, which for most cases is 175 psi. So if you had fluctuating supply pressures, during a higher than normal pressure event, the system could relieve and not damage your downstream, 175 psi rated system. Is this a diesel or electric? How much pressure do you need at these heads? Craig L. Prahl Hi Forum , Could someone shed some light on the requirements for 4.7.7.2 . I have a project where the quoted fire pump comes with a Pressure relief valve and waste cone . City pressure is 58/56/1586 , we are using a 1500gpm pump at 140 psi to get the flow and pressure we need to supply a freezer using LP-46 heads . I find many references to the use of Pressure relief valves being Used but 4.7.7.2 is causing me to scratch my head . Colin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2
The LP-46 only requires 15-20 psi end head. I don't understand the excessive pressure you require. The 58/56/1583 is a great suction source. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 4:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 You can't use the PRV to relieve excess pressure under normal conditions due to an over designed pump. There can be unexpected times in a municipal supply where pressure spikes occur for various reasons. If your pump selection puts you close to the maximum system working pressure under normal conditions and a spike in the supply were to occur, with no means of relief, downstream system damage could occur. One other concern over this selection is that it is a 1500 gpm pump with only a 1583 gpm tested source flow rate. The pump may not be capable of reaching the 150 % mark unless you know if the municipal supply can actually provide more than 1583 gpm. Not knowing the actual system demands makes it difficult to address this issue any farther. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 craig.pr...@ch2m.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 4:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 [EXTERNAL] Looks like you could be above 200 PSI churn or system pressure. The standard (2013 referenced) does not allow you to use the relief as a means of blowing off excess pressure above 175. Tom Is the 140 psi total pressure or pump rating? The pressure relief valve comes into play if the combination of supply pressure and pump pressure exceeds the allowable system pressure, which for most cases is 175 psi. So if you had fluctuating supply pressures, during a higher than normal pressure event, the system could relieve and not damage your downstream, 175 psi rated system. Is this a diesel or electric? How much pressure do you need at these heads? Craig L. Prahl Hi Forum , Could someone shed some light on the requirements for 4.7.7.2 . I have a project where the quoted fire pump comes with a Pressure relief valve and waste cone . City pressure is 58/56/1586 , we are using a 1500gpm pump at 140 psi to get the flow and pressure we need to supply a freezer using LP-46 heads . I find many references to the use of Pressure relief valves being Used but 4.7.7.2 is causing me to scratch my head . Colin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Paint Booth Exhaust Stack
Is that the total duct length or is there a riser to the roof? Are there heads in the plenum behind the filter? Where is the exhaust fan? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Paint Booth Exhaust Stack NFPA #33 (2016 ed) section 9.4.6 (2) Horizontal Exhaust ducts shall have sprinklers located on 12'-0" centers beginning no more that 6'-0" from the duct entrance. If the horizontal run is only 2'-0" do you require a sprinkler head to protect this section of the duct, (is there a minimum distance) Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Built-up roof deck as a limited-combustible construction
If it is covered with gravel and there is no exposed combustible material then could a fire propagate in this concealed space? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David Bitton Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 5:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Built-up roof deck as a limited-combustible construction Hello Todd, The original building plans are not available. I am considering this to be a Class II metal deck roof, and assuming tar and gravel, foam insulation, a combustible vapor barrier, and combustible adhesive over a steel deck. David From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 5:00 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Re: Built-up roof deck as a limited-combustible construction Any more details on what the built up roof consists of? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On Mar 10, 2017 at 4:57 PM, mailto:dbit...@questlosscontrol.com> > wrote: Hello, I have a 35 ft high building being built adjacent to a 22 ft high building which has a built-up, insulated metal deck roof. The structural engineer has devised a sloped "snow shed" between the addition and the lower building in order to distribute the increased snow load at this juncture. This will create an inaccessible concealed space on the roof which will be of noncombustible construction, with the exception of its base, which will be the built-up metal deck roof of the existing building. Would you consider this as meeting the definition of "limited combustible construction", meaning that the space would not require sprinkler protection? David Bitton, ing./Eng. Quest Loss Control Services Inc. 5100, rue de la Savane, bureau 200 Montréal, Québec H4P 1T8 T: (514) 341-4545 C: (514) 996-7483 www.questlosscontrol.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Built-up roof deck as a limited-combustible construction
Is it a flat roof? Is it covered with gravel or stone? If it is built of felt paper and asphalt/tar it will burn. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David Bitton Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 4:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Built-up roof deck as a limited-combustible construction Hello, I have a 35 ft high building being built adjacent to a 22 ft high building which has a built-up, insulated metal deck roof. The structural engineer has devised a sloped "snow shed" between the addition and the lower building in order to distribute the increased snow load at this juncture. This will create an inaccessible concealed space on the roof which will be of noncombustible construction, with the exception of its base, which will be the built-up metal deck roof of the existing building. Would you consider this as meeting the definition of "limited combustible construction", meaning that the space would not require sprinkler protection? David Bitton, ing./Eng. Quest Loss Control Services Inc. 5100, rue de la Savane, bureau 200 Montréal, Québec H4P 1T8 T: (514) 341-4545 C: (514) 996-7483 www.questlosscontrol.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Size of main service - dry parking garage -
>From the information presented the question can’t be answered. To do a hydraulic analysis you need: A water flow test near the point of the connection. Length of the underground fire main from the connection to the riser. Elevation of the dry system highest sprinkler. Is there a fire hydrant supplied from the proposed 4” main? If yes then the main shall be 6”. Best analysis is to do a preliminary hydraulic calculation to determine if 4” is adequate. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of very Cool Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2017 8:52 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Size of main service - dry parking garage - Hi: I am trying to find if a 4" main is adequate for a dry system to serve a parking garage. Here is what I am calculating. Would appreciate any feedback: The area of application would be 1500 SF, which needs to increase by 30% as per Section 11.2.3.2.5, to 1950 SF. Water demand = 1950 x .15 = 293 GPM Add 250 hose allowance: 293 + 250=543 GPM Velocity at 4" main and 543 GPM =13.7 FPS, therefore ok Thank you Ramez --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Floating Dock
How much movement where dock connects to shore? Metraflex Co has flex U loop that may be of value. Can you support pipe on the floor outside the hand rail? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark Phillips Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Charles Thurston Subject: Re: Floating Dock Galvanized sch 40 Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to land connection. I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling every six inches on a three foot section Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com> wrote: Hello Sprinklerforum, Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river. Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in 5 years ago. -- Best regards, Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com<mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com> MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety 1445 Cannon Road Myrtle Beach, SC 29577 (843) 916 - 8787 (843) 839 - 3473 facsimile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Commodity class upgrade?
Exposed plastic containers would become Class A exposed plastics in my conservative analysis. They shed water so wetting can’t take place. How big are the boxes? Is it a pallet loads of plastic boxes with combustibles. Is it more than 15% of the weight of matertials No access to NFPA today Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 216-570-7030 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 2:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Commodity class upgrade? I have a project where they are storing class III commodities in plastic totes. The product is stored on racks with 12' to top of storage. Does the plastic totes cause me to increase / modify the commodity class? I swear I read something about that in the storage chapters but I can't seem to locate it. This jurisdiction is under the 2013 edition of NFPA 13. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Combustible concealed space under stair
Is this an enclosure. Access door like a closet.? Electrical equipment? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 10:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Combustible concealed space under stair NFPA 13 (07ed) section 8.15.1.2.9 Could this section be applied to a small combustible concealed space under stairs that is under 55 SF? Thanks, Dewayne --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Artifical Turf
ESFR heads require flue spaces 9' apart and no solid shelves. Solid shelves or no flues may require in-rack sprinkles. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 7:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Artifical Turf We are looking at a client the stores artificial turf in rolls and would like to store on racking. The racking is multi row racking and the turf is made from polyethylene. My first thought is to protect the same as carpet storage, or can it be protected as non-expanded group ""A" plastics. The existing sprinkler system is ESFR K17 operating at 52 psi. Thoughts Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Floor mounted obstructions - ORDINARY HAZ
Review all the obstruction rules. It should become clear. 18” from storage to deflector is required. There are also distance to wall obstructions that may be helpful. I don’t have 13 available at home. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 2126-570-7030 : Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 12:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Floor mounted obstructions - ORDINARY HAZ Jeff: Amen on the “not clearly stated”! I saw that paragraph, but it appeared to me to refer more to obstructions from the ceiling not the floor. I’m trying to throw over the top of the partition and it would be nice if NFPA-13 could give a spacing table for Ordinary Hazard like it does for “Light Hazard only”. That’s the frustrating part, common sense says the same or similar spacing would apply, but Ordinary Hazard is not included. Thanks, John Paulsen – SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P – 614-782-2438 F – 614-782-2374 C – 614-348-8206 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Normand Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 12:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Floor mounted obstructions - ORDINARY HAZ Not that clearly stated but here's the NFPA 13 2016 edition 8.6.5.3.1 Continuous or noncontinuous obstructions that interrupt the water discharge in a horizontal plane more than 18 in. (450 mm) below the sprinkler deflector in a manner to limit the distribution from reaching the protected hazard shall comply with 8.6.5.3. 8.6.5.3.2 The requirements of 8.6.5.3 shall also apply to obstructions 18 in. (450 mm) or less below the sprinkler for light and ordinary hazard occupancies. A.8.6.5.3.3 When obstructions are located more than 18 in. (450 mm) below the sprinkler deflector, an adequate spray pattern develops and obstructions up to and including 4 ft (1.2 m) wide do not require additional protection underneath. Examples are ducts, decks, open grate flooring, catwalks, cutting tables, overhead doors, soffits, ceiling panels, and other similar obstructions. On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 11:10 AM, John Paulsen <j...@crwnfire.com <mailto:j...@crwnfire.com> > wrote: I am trying to determine the proper deflector distance from a partition with the top located 18” below the sprinkler deflector. This is an Ord Haz Grp II Self Storage facility with standard spray QR Tyco TY-FRB TY3131 uprights. Sec 8.6.5.2 doesn’t give a table like 8.6.5.2.2 which is for Light Hazard only. If I have to space the heads as if the low partitions went all the way to the deck, I will violate the 6’ minimum rule. What am I missing here? Thanks, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Tank Capacity
Hose demand is usually not art of the equation with good city hydrant supply available. If you omit hose than it all works. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dale Wingard Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 4:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Tank Capacity Thanks everyone. I just thought that it was always an acceptable practice. The situation is I have a new owner of a warehouse with an existing ground tank and pump house. We will be replacing the pump. The tank is only 3000 gallons short of the largest system demand plus the outside hose times the duration requirement. The city supply to the tank will be more than able to make up the difference. The underwriter is saying that the “reliable automatic refill” cannot be considered. I was wanting to show proof that it was acceptable prior to the 2013 edition. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 3:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Tank Capacity It was in one edition of 13R wayback when. I don't think it had ever been "allowed" by 22 until recently but it only makes sense. Now define reliable refill rate for this application emphasizing reliable. On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:48 PM Brad Casterline <bcasterli...@gmail.com> wrote: Requirements for break tanks were added NFPA 20 (2007), according to page 20-2. Brad On Jan 27, 2017 2:41 PM, "Mike B Morey" <mmo...@shambaugh.com> wrote: The earliest reference I can find is NFPA 25 2007 in section 5.30, it has moved around since, but as others have pointed out, it's defined in there as a break tank. _ Mike Morey CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project Manager • Fire Protection Group Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 direct 260.487.7824 <tel:(260)%20487-7824> / cell 260.417.0625 <tel:(260)%20417-0625> / fax 260.487.7991 <tel:(260)%20487-7991> email mmo...@shambaugh.com From:Dale Wingard <da...@aaafp.com> To:"sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org" <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Date:01/27/2017 02:52 PM Subject:Tank Capacity Sent by:"Sprinklerforum" <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> _ NFPA 22 (2013 Edition) excerpt- 4.1.4 A tank shall be sized so that the stored supply plus reliable automatic refill shall be sufficient to meet the demand placed upon it for the design duration. I have researched earlier editions but I have not been able to find where the reliable automatic refill has been previously allowed; however, I recall this being the case. Am I overlooking something? Thanks, [attachment "Dale Wingard SET.vcf" deleted by Mike B Morey/Shambaugh/EMCORGROUP] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org=DwICAg=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg=ZIlAYkYGG--WYErIebjpFDdfGghXLB-667jMo2EgODU=qOSLfkv2O4_vGbMHmTDjJ1Ouas46DTZW6qD5O1rpvcc=> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org=DwICAg=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg=ZIlAYkYGG--WYErIebjpFDdfGghXLB-667jMo2EgODU=qOSLfkv2O4_vGbMHmTDjJ1Ouas46DTZW6qD5O1rpvcc= This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Sent from Gmail Mobile --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: PIV Supervion, lock or tamper switch?
Local code determines when and where protection is required. NFPA shows how it is to be done. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Pro From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Owen Evans Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 12:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: PIV Supervion, lock or tamper switch? As most of you know, I work exclusively with 13D systems. I do on occasion get questions on the big boy systems, 13 and 13R. The property in question is a boutique hotel, two buildings. One building is a two story, fifty room hotel and the other building is two story, restaurant on the first floor and banquet facility on second floor with a roof deck. Each building has a FDC and a PIV. I am in California which is under the 2013 IFC. I recently had the question asked "does the PIV require electrical supervision?" NFPA states a lock is adequate, the 2013 IFC states electrical supervision is required, with exceptions. I get different answers form different people. I'm thinking it's the more restrictive 2013 IFC. Which is it? Thank you, Owen Evans ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: College Lab Classrooms
A worst case would be quantity of flammable liquids. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of wmens...@comcast.net Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 11:39 AM To: sprinklerforum Subject: Re: College Lab Classrooms Thank you everyone. Since this is a science lab I am going with OH2 to be safe. _ From: "Reed A. Roisum, SET" <raroi...@kfi-eng.com> To: "sprinklerforum" <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 11:07:56 AM Subject: RE: College Lab Classrooms Check out NFPA 45 Table 9.1.1(b). This will give you a fire hazard class based on quantities of flammable and combustible liquids. Then if you look in chapter 6 (6.1.1.1) it will tell you whether it is OH1 or OH2. I know the MN Fire Code for instance says “Chemistry Labs” are OH2 but it makes sense to me that it would depend on the type and quantities of combustible liquids. Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | <http://www.kfiengineers.com/> KFIengineers.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of wmens...@comcast.net Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 9:36 AM To: sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: College Lab Classrooms Quick question. College Lab classrooms. Light or Ordinary hazard? Bill Menster WFM Consulting Inc. 2416 Malaya Ct. Punta Gorda, FL 33983 ph. 941-421-9786 fax 941-391-6133 wmens...@comcast.net www.wfmconsultinginc.com <http://www.wfmconsultinginc.com/> __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com <http://www.symanteccloud.com/> __ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sidewall Sprinkler in Peaked Skylight
What is RCMP? Is the skylight less than 3 Ft high? Is the volume less than 1000 Cu.Ft.? If yes to both no sprinklers are required in the skylight. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire/Tiroly -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of P & P Sprinklers Ltd Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 6:45 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Sidewall Sprinkler in Peaked Skylight We are sprinklering 2 new RCMP buildings, both having the same design and layout. The roof has a 12/12 pitch and has a skylight running along the ridge 27 ft in length and 5 ft wide. How would one go about properly protecting this skylight? It seems by code it isn't allowed to put a sidewall in the peak at both ends, though that is exactly what is shown in the engineers plans. Has anyone come across this situation? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR retrofit
Measure the ID of the brass nipple. The ID is near 1”. Can you get a 1x3/4 male reducer. Think about velocity and turbulence at ~ 125 gpm Art Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 4:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: ESFR retrofit I am looking at a warehouse space that needs to upgrade from K14 ESFR to K22. Typically this would involve plugging the ¾” outlets and cutting in new 1” mechanical T’s. I had someone ask why we could not use a ¾” brass nipple and a ¾” to 1” reducer to up-size the outlet to hold a 1” head. I feel like this is not allowed, but I could not find specifically where. It would not really be an extension fitting. ¾” brass is allowed. Each change of size is done with a single piece reducer. The ¾” tee and nipple would be included in the calculations… Any help on where the code addresses this setup? Thanks! Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II Vice President – New Construction Alliance Fire Protection 130 w 9th Ave. North Kansas City, MO 64116 *Licensed in KS & MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.526.7443 cell www. AFPsprink.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sprikler obstruction.
Thank you. Does the same effect occur next to a duct we wonder. The ceiling area forms a pocket that is 4’ from an adjacent wall 4Ft away to sprinkler that is next to a duct. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Larry Keeping Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 4:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sprikler obstruction. >From the 1984 Technical Committee Reports for Proposal 13-401: “SUBSTANTIATION Guidance is needed for the placement of standard sprinklers (ie non sidewall heads) in relation to their horizontal proximity to walls. Dead air spaces in corners can effect a sprinkler’s operation time. The minimum clearance for sidewall was used (NFPA 13 4-5.4). A recent installation in a 300 ft long by 9 ft wide corridor caused this concern when the sprinklers were located only 1 in off the wall.” Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: October-20-16 9:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sprikler obstruction. What is the reasoning for the 4” minimum space to a wall or duct? It isn’t activation or spray pattern since sidewall sprinklers operate in a recessed escutcheon. Art at ATCO Fire From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 5:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprikler obstruction. For standard spray sprinklers: 4" from the duct unless a sidewall (you could use a vertical type) and no closer the 6' from the next closest sprinkler. The rules are pretty clear. Unless you can find a sprinkler who's listing negates these rules you're stuck. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: 12x16” Duct is tight to ceiling. Up right Sprinkler is about 6” from ceiling on exposed pipe. Fire Marshall’s issue is that the sprinkler is about 2.5” from the face of the duct. Adjacent sprinkler is about 6’-0 away. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cesar Lira Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 4:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sprikler obstruction. What size is the duct and what is the distance between the sprinkler and the top of duct. De: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] En nombre de IPA Enviado el: miércoles, 19 de octubre de 2016 02:02 p. m. Para: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Asunto: Re: Sprikler obstruction. Is the duct below the sprinkler deflector? On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: Does an upright sprinkler have to be moved when a new duct was added less than 4” away from the existing sprinkler. I understand when a new sprinkler is installed it shall be 4” away from a wall. I have adequate coverage from the adjacent sprinkler in this basement meeting room space. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell _ <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> Imagen quitada por el remitente. Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _ <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> Image removed by sender. Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman 4110 Olson Dr., NW Gig Harbor, WA 98335 rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sprikler obstruction.
The 12”duct is not a wall. Then sidewall sprinklers would not function properly either. An old timers reason was how to install a screwed tee with two wrenches less than 4” from an object. This sprinkler was there before the duct. This question comes from a fire prevention officer. Art at ATCO From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 1:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprikler obstruction. Doesn't it have something with the heat plume and how it "bends" at the wall / ceiling interface. Heat detectors can't be within four inches of a wall either, if I recall correctly. And that make sense as a sprinkler is a form of heat detector any way. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Oct 20, 2016, at 9:36 AM, rongreenman . <rongreen...@gmail.com> wrote: I was told it has to do with pattern development, splash back from the wall interference. This is sitting in my bucket of potential to probably old fitters' (wives') tales until I get confirmation from more reliable/knowledgeable sources than the guy that told me this. On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 6:41 AM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: What is the reasoning for the 4” minimum space to a wall or duct? It isn’t activation or spray pattern since sidewall sprinklers operate in a recessed escutcheon. Art at ATCO Fire From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 5:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprikler obstruction. For standard spray sprinklers: 4" from the duct unless a sidewall (you could use a vertical type) and no closer the 6' from the next closest sprinkler. The rules are pretty clear. Unless you can find a sprinkler who's listing negates these rules you're stuck. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: 12x16” Duct is tight to ceiling. Up right Sprinkler is about 6” from ceiling on exposed pipe. Fire Marshall’s issue is that the sprinkler is about 2.5” from the face of the duct. Adjacent sprinkler is about 6’-0 away. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cesar Lira Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 4:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sprikler obstruction. What size is the duct and what is the distance between the sprinkler and the top of duct. De: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] En nombre de IPA Enviado el: miércoles, 19 de octubre de 2016 02:02 p. m. Para: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Asunto: Re: Sprikler obstruction. Is the duct below the sprinkler deflector? On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: Does an upright sprinkler have to be moved when a new duct was added less than 4” away from the existing sprinkler. I understand when a new sprinkler is installed it shall be 4” away from a wall. I have adequate coverage from the adjacent sprinkler in this basement meeting room space. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell _ <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _ <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman 4110 Olson Dr., NW Gig Harbor, WA 98335 rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mai
RE: Sprikler obstruction.
What is the reasoning for the 4” minimum space to a wall or duct? It isn’t activation or spray pattern since sidewall sprinklers operate in a recessed escutcheon. Art at ATCO Fire From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 5:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprikler obstruction. For standard spray sprinklers: 4" from the duct unless a sidewall (you could use a vertical type) and no closer the 6' from the next closest sprinkler. The rules are pretty clear. Unless you can find a sprinkler who's listing negates these rules you're stuck. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com <mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > wrote: 12x16” Duct is tight to ceiling. Up right Sprinkler is about 6” from ceiling on exposed pipe. Fire Marshall’s issue is that the sprinkler is about 2.5” from the face of the duct. Adjacent sprinkler is about 6’-0 away. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> ] On Behalf Of Cesar Lira Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 4:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sprikler obstruction. What size is the duct and what is the distance between the sprinkler and the top of duct. De: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] En nombre de IPA Enviado el: miércoles, 19 de octubre de 2016 02:02 p. m. Para: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Asunto: Re: Sprikler obstruction. Is the duct below the sprinkler deflector? On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com <mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > wrote: Does an upright sprinkler have to be moved when a new duct was added less than 4” away from the existing sprinkler. I understand when a new sprinkler is installed it shall be 4” away from a wall. I have adequate coverage from the adjacent sprinkler in this basement meeting room space. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell _ <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _ <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman 4110 Olson Dr., NW Gig Harbor, WA 98335 rongreen...@gmail.com <mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sprikler obstruction.
12x16” Duct is tight to ceiling. Up right Sprinkler is about 6” from ceiling on exposed pipe. Fire Marshall’s issue is that the sprinkler is about 2.5” from the face of the duct. Adjacent sprinkler is about 6’-0 away. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cesar Lira Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 4:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sprikler obstruction. What size is the duct and what is the distance between the sprinkler and the top of duct. De: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] En nombre de IPA Enviado el: miércoles, 19 de octubre de 2016 02:02 p. m. Para: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Asunto: Re: Sprikler obstruction. Is the duct below the sprinkler deflector? On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: Does an upright sprinkler have to be moved when a new duct was added less than 4” away from the existing sprinkler. I understand when a new sprinkler is installed it shall be 4” away from a wall. I have adequate coverage from the adjacent sprinkler in this basement meeting room space. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell _ <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> Imagen quitada por el remitente. Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Sprikler obstruction.
Does an upright sprinkler have to be moved when a new duct was added less than 4" away from the existing sprinkler. I understand when a new sprinkler is installed it shall be 4" away from a wall. I have adequate coverage from the adjacent sprinkler in this basement meeting room space. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: FM Global
You will also have to meet local code requirements per NFPA 13 for submittal whichever is geater. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 10:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: FM Global Thanks guys, I didn’t even know about 3-26. We will confirm everything with FM before submitting. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: FM Global When I have done “non-factory” projects with FM global (most recently a retirement home) they were very flexible in modifying their requirements to suit the project. In occupancies that don’t directly correlate to their core business I have had good luck with compromises. Cesar is right – confirm all design guidelines in writing from FM if they are any different from the ones spelled out in the data sheets. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II Vice President – New Construction Alliance Fire Protection 130 w 9th Ave. North Kansas City, MO 64116 *Licensed in KS & MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.526.7443 cell www. AFPsprink.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cesar Lira Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 9:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: FM Global Hi Dewayne. Accord to 3-26 table 1. Both areas Seating areas and kitchen are a HC1 Hazard and sprinkler design is 0.1/1500 + 250 gpm using a 5.6 k factor sprinklers. Also you need to wait for FM insurance recommendations. CLR De: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] En nombre de Dewayne Martinez Enviado el: jueves, 29 de septiembre de 2016 08:14 a. m. Para: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Asunto: FM Global We are doing a small restaurant tenant in a strip mall that is insured by FM Global. I have contacted the GC asking for the FM contact but thought maybe the forum could provide some insight. 1)Does FM allow reduced design areas? 2)Seating area 01./1500 +100gpm and kitchen 0.15/1500 +250gpm sound right? Thanks, Dewayne --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Open-Grid Ceilings - Egg crate
Sprinklers above the egg crate will have obstructed flow spray pattern. How far below the deck are the sprinklers in the egg crate ceiling? If more than 12"??? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of J.P. Merlino/Ing. L.Lagomarsino & Asoc. Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 6:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Open-Grid Ceilings - Egg crate Dear Sirs: NFPA 13 Ed. 2016 - 8.15.14 If we have an open grid egg-crate that meets 70% open space but the depth of the material (2 in) exceeds the least dimension (1 in) it does not comply with the allowance not to install sprinkler beneath and we must install in the egg-crate (or beneath). But the standard is silent on what to do with the space over the egg-crate. Shall we have two layers of sprinklers, one in the egg-crate and the other over the egg-crate as if the egg-crate does not exist? I appreciate your thoughts or if we are missing something. best regards J.P. Merlino --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Ceiling Pockets
Thank you. Some of the window pockets are 30-50 Ft. long but still under 1000 Cu.Ft.. Old ceiling was 14 Ft. Drop ceiling is 10 Ft. It seems the volume should be the prime consideration not a 4Ft high pocket along an outside window wall. When you divide 1000 by 3 = 333.3 SF. That is a big area with no sprinklers. Depends on the shape of the pocket. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets That makes sense, until you start taking it to extremes. What about a 10' deep pocket under 1000 sq ft? I guess the committee had to draw a line somewhere and 3' was the line. Even though it is potentially a bunch of extra sprinklers, the smaller orifices should limit the hydraulic impact. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack On 9/13/2016 10:29 AM, Art Tiroly wrote: Thank you. Some of the window pockets are 30-50 Ft. long but still under 1000 Cu.Ft.. Old ceiling was 14 Ft. Drop ceiling is 10 Ft. It seems the volume should be the prime consideration not a 4Ft high pocket along an outside window wall. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of T. Silva Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 12:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Skylights and similar pockets not exceeding 32 sq.ft. and separated from other pockets by minimum 10 feet do not require sprinklers. I would try to use that. Tony _ From: "Travis Mack" <tm...@mfpdesign.com> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:34:20 AM Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Just put a 2.8k sprinkler in the pocket. At least that minimizes the hydraulic impact to the system. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2016, at 8:21 AM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: I have 4 Ft wide x 4 Ft deep window pockets in a 100 year old class room building with new drop ceilings. Adding a sprinkler to a window pocket because it is over 3 Ft. deep makes no sense to me in these class rooms. If a pocket sprinkler activates and washes the windows it does nothing for the fire 8-12 Ft. away. I plan to ask for a variance from the Ohio State plans examiner at submittal though likely to no avail. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets It's all about activation Ron/Bruce. Roland's insight as to the pass/fail criteria was a stroke of genius. I like to explain it and then Roland corrects me. So I'll forego my part and wait for Roland to get his ears on. Brad On Sep 12, 2016 4:41 PM, "Bruce Verhei" <bver...@comcast.net> wrote: Ron is briefer. On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:39, Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net> wrote: Isn't the idea of using a Volume completely different than viewing his as an Area, such as a large sail sewing table that obstructs coverage as well as delaying operation? Wasn't 1,000 cu ft a consensus guesstimate saying we'd allow a space this big for heat to accumulate in before banking down to activate heads? And experience presumably has shown it works, usually? Putting a head to cover part of it is better if fire is under that head. If fire is away from head will you delay heat from banking down, resulting in a worse situation? I don't know. And I would guesstimate original designer doesn't either. Best Bruce Verhei On Sep 12, 2016, at 11:21, T. Silva <silva...@shaw.ca> wrote: _ NFPA 13, 2013 8.6.7.2 (1) "The total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 1000 cu.ft." Is the 1000 cuft only the volume of the pocket that is not sprinklered? For example, there is a pocket that is 30" long x 20' wide x 2' deep, creating a 1200 cuft ceiling pocket. If one row of sprinklers are provided in this pocket (along the 30 foot length), to provi
RE: Ceiling Pockets
Thank you. Some of the window pockets are 30-50 Ft. long but still under 1000 Cu.Ft.. Old ceiling was 14 Ft. Drop ceiling is 10 Ft. It seems the volume should be the prime consideration not a 4Ft high pocket along an outside window wall. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets If I wer interpreting I'd be thinking pockets at the roof that are not skylights are what are similar to skylights, not pockets in walls. Fortunately for you I'm not the one you need to convince. Essentially you have a broken soffit with a raised floor (presuming the windows aren't at the regular floor level. On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, T. Silva <silva...@shaw.ca> wrote: Skylights and similar pockets not exceeding 32 sq.ft. and separated from other pockets by minimum 10 feet do not require sprinklers. I would try to use that. Tony _ From: "Travis Mack" <tm...@mfpdesign.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tm...@mfpdesign.com');> > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org');> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:34:20 AM Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Just put a 2.8k sprinkler in the pocket. At least that minimizes the hydraulic impact to the system. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2016, at 8:21 AM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','atir...@atcofirepro.com');> > wrote: I have 4 Ft wide x 4 Ft deep window pockets in a 100 year old class room building with new drop ceilings. Adding a sprinkler to a window pocket because it is over 3 Ft. deep makes no sense to me in these class rooms. If a pocket sprinkler activates and washes the windows it does nothing for the fire 8-12 Ft. away. I plan to ask for a variance from the Ohio State plans examiner at submittal though likely to no avail. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org');> ] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org');> Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets It's all about activation Ron/Bruce. Roland's insight as to the pass/fail criteria was a stroke of genius. I like to explain it and then Roland corrects me. So I'll forego my part and wait for Roland to get his ears on. Brad On Sep 12, 2016 4:41 PM, "Bruce Verhei" <bver...@comcast.net <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bver...@comcast.net');> > wrote: Ron is briefer. On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:39, Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bver...@comcast.net');> > wrote: Isn't the idea of using a Volume completely different than viewing his as an Area, such as a large sail sewing table that obstructs coverage as well as delaying operation? Wasn't 1,000 cu ft a consensus guesstimate saying we'd allow a space this big for heat to accumulate in before banking down to activate heads? And experience presumably has shown it works, usually? Putting a head to cover part of it is better if fire is under that head. If fire is away from head will you delay heat from banking down, resulting in a worse situation? I don't know. And I would guesstimate original designer doesn't either. Best Bruce Verhei On Sep 12, 2016, at 11:21, T. Silva <silva...@shaw.ca <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','silva...@shaw.ca');> > wrote: _ NFPA 13, 2013 8.6.7.2 (1) "The total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 1000 cu.ft." Is the 1000 cuft only the volume of the pocket that is not sprinklered? For example, there is a pocket that is 30" long x 20' wide x 2' deep, creating a 1200 cuft ceiling pocket. If one row of sprinklers are provided in this pocket (along the 30 foot length), to provide a protected area of 30' x 10' (1) Is the the total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket still 1200 cuft? or (2) Reduced to 600 cuft, discounting the sprinklered area? Thanks, Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org');> http://lists.
RE: Ceiling Pockets
Thank you. Some of the window pockets are 30-50 Ft. long but still under 1000 Cu.Ft.. Old ceiling was 14 Ft. Drop ceiling is 10 Ft. It seems the volume should be the prime consideration not a 4Ft high pocket along an outside window wall. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of T. Silva Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 12:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Skylights and similar pockets not exceeding 32 sq.ft. and separated from other pockets by minimum 10 feet do not require sprinklers. I would try to use that. Tony _ From: "Travis Mack" <tm...@mfpdesign.com> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:34:20 AM Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Just put a 2.8k sprinkler in the pocket. At least that minimizes the hydraulic impact to the system. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2016, at 8:21 AM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: I have 4 Ft wide x 4 Ft deep window pockets in a 100 year old class room building with new drop ceilings. Adding a sprinkler to a window pocket because it is over 3 Ft. deep makes no sense to me in these class rooms. If a pocket sprinkler activates and washes the windows it does nothing for the fire 8-12 Ft. away. I plan to ask for a variance from the Ohio State plans examiner at submittal though likely to no avail. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets It's all about activation Ron/Bruce. Roland's insight as to the pass/fail criteria was a stroke of genius. I like to explain it and then Roland corrects me. So I'll forego my part and wait for Roland to get his ears on. Brad On Sep 12, 2016 4:41 PM, "Bruce Verhei" <bver...@comcast.net> wrote: Ron is briefer. On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:39, Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net> wrote: Isn't the idea of using a Volume completely different than viewing his as an Area, such as a large sail sewing table that obstructs coverage as well as delaying operation? Wasn't 1,000 cu ft a consensus guesstimate saying we'd allow a space this big for heat to accumulate in before banking down to activate heads? And experience presumably has shown it works, usually? Putting a head to cover part of it is better if fire is under that head. If fire is away from head will you delay heat from banking down, resulting in a worse situation? I don't know. And I would guesstimate original designer doesn't either. Best Bruce Verhei On Sep 12, 2016, at 11:21, T. Silva <silva...@shaw.ca> wrote: _ NFPA 13, 2013 8.6.7.2 (1) "The total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 1000 cu.ft." Is the 1000 cuft only the volume of the pocket that is not sprinklered? For example, there is a pocket that is 30" long x 20' wide x 2' deep, creating a 1200 cuft ceiling pocket. If one row of sprinklers are provided in this pocket (along the 30 foot length), to provide a protected area of 30' x 10' (1) Is the the total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket still 1200 cuft? or (2) Reduced to 600 cuft, discounting the sprinklered area? Thanks, Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Ceiling Pockets
I have 4 Ft wide x 4 Ft deep window pockets in a 100 year old class room building with new drop ceilings. Adding a sprinkler to a window pocket because it is over 3 Ft. deep makes no sense to me in these class rooms. If a pocket sprinkler activates and washes the windows it does nothing for the fire 8-12 Ft. away. I plan to ask for a variance from the Ohio State plans examiner at submittal though likely to no avail. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets It's all about activation Ron/Bruce. Roland's insight as to the pass/fail criteria was a stroke of genius. I like to explain it and then Roland corrects me. So I'll forego my part and wait for Roland to get his ears on. Brad On Sep 12, 2016 4:41 PM, "Bruce Verhei" <bver...@comcast.net <mailto:bver...@comcast.net> > wrote: Ron is briefer. On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:39, Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net <mailto:bver...@comcast.net> > wrote: Isn't the idea of using a Volume completely different than viewing his as an Area, such as a large sail sewing table that obstructs coverage as well as delaying operation? Wasn't 1,000 cu ft a consensus guesstimate saying we'd allow a space this big for heat to accumulate in before banking down to activate heads? And experience presumably has shown it works, usually? Putting a head to cover part of it is better if fire is under that head. If fire is away from head will you delay heat from banking down, resulting in a worse situation? I don't know. And I would guesstimate original designer doesn't either. Best Bruce Verhei On Sep 12, 2016, at 11:21, T. Silva <silva...@shaw.ca <mailto:silva...@shaw.ca> > wrote: _ NFPA 13, 2013 8.6.7.2 (1) "The total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 1000 cu.ft." Is the 1000 cuft only the volume of the pocket that is not sprinklered? For example, there is a pocket that is 30" long x 20' wide x 2' deep, creating a 1200 cuft ceiling pocket. If one row of sprinklers are provided in this pocket (along the 30 foot length), to provide a protected area of 30' x 10' (1) Is the the total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket still 1200 cuft? or (2) Reduced to 600 cuft, discounting the sprinklered area? Thanks, Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Ceiling pockets
He intent is to use either 8.7.7 or 8.8.7 for large pockets. The volume of the pocket seems more important than the depth. A 4x4x40-50' pocket should not need sprinklers next to glass windows. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 3:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ceiling pockets If you qualify, you might be able to use 8.8.7.3. Note the wording ". . and similar pockets." Section 8.5.7 doesn't limit the depth to 3'. Ed Kramer Bamford Fire From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 11:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Ceiling pockets In section 8.8.7 sprinklers may be omitted from 1000 Cu.Ft. ceiling pockets. This large volume is allowed but is further restricted by a 3 Ft. maximum pocket height. I have long narrow pockets along high windows with a new drop ceiling that has a pocket 4 Ft. above the new ceiling. The volumes are less than 1000 Cu.Ft. I don't understand the restriction to 3 Ft. since the air volume seems to be the relevant restriction. Do I need to add sprinklers to a ceiling pocket along the windows when I have floor coverage. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Image removed by sender. Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> www.avast.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Ceiling pockets
In section 8.8.7 sprinklers may be omitted from 1000 Cu.Ft. ceiling pockets. This large volume is allowed but is further restricted by a 3 Ft. maximum pocket height. I have long narrow pockets along high windows with a new drop ceiling that has a pocket 4 Ft. above the new ceiling. The volumes are less than 1000 Cu.Ft. I don't understand the restriction to 3 Ft. since the air volume seems to be the relevant restriction. Do I need to add sprinklers to a ceiling pocket along the windows when I have floor coverage. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: acid corosion
Sorry for the repetition. I did not think this was getting through. Art [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 3:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: We have an issue with sprinkler water becoming acidic 5.5-6 PH. System is 6 months old. The Bellville seal corrodes and cracks resulting in drips from sprinkler. 6 sprinklers so far. Columbus water is not acidic. Test from back flow drain shows acid 5.6 PH Manufacturer says it is acid water corrosion that damages seal. Other tests also acidic. Goes acidic in two weeks. Foul smelling with particulates. Some black pipe, mostly CPVC in an old Frat house System drained and filled 6 times. What can be causing low PH in a few weeks. Pictures show corrosion inside the sprinkler throat and seal. There is also an glycerin antifreeze system that does not have this problem. Suggestions please Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=oa-2368-c> Image removed by sender. Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campai gn=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=oa-2368-c> www.avast.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE:
We have an issue with sprinkler water becoming acidic 5.5-6 PH. System is 6 months old. The Bellville seal corrodes and cracks resulting in drips from sprinkler. 6 sprinklers so far. Columbus water is not acidic. Test from back flow drain shows acid 5.6 PH Manufacturer says it is acid water corrosion that damages seal. Other tests also acidic. Goes acidic in two weeks. Foul smelling with particulates. Some black pipe, mostly CPVC in an old Frat house System drained and filled 6 times. What can be causing low PH in a few weeks. Pictures show corrosion inside the sprinkler throat and seal. There is also an glycerin antifreeze system that does not have this problem. Suggestions please Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
FW: Leaking sprinkler due to corrosion
From: Art Tiroly [mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 2:07 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' Subject: Leaking sprinkler due to corrosion We have an issue with sprinkler water becoming acidic 5.5-6 PH. System is 6 months old. The Bellville seal corrodes and cracks resulting in drips from sprinkler. 6 sprinklers so far. Columbus water is not acidic. Test from back flow drain shows acid 5.6 PH Manufacturer says it is acid water corrosion that damages seal. Other tests also acidic. Some black pipe, mostly CPVC in an old Frat house System drained and filled 6 times. What can be causing low PH in a few weeks. Pictures show corrosion inside the sprinkler throat and seal. There is also an antifreeze system that does not have this problem. Suggestions please Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Leaking sprinkler due to corrosion
We have an issue with sprinkler water becoming acidic 5.5-6 PH. System is 6 months old. The Bellville seal corrodes and cracks resulting in drips from sprinkler. 6 sprinklers so far. Columbus water is not acidic. Test from back flow drain shows acid 5.6 PH Manufacturer says it is acid water corrosion that damages seal. Other tests also acidic. Some black pipe, mostly CPVC in an old Frat house System drained and filled 6 times. What can be causing low PH in a few weeks. Pictures show corrosion inside the sprinkler throat and seal. There is also an antifreeze system that does not have this problem. Suggestions please Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Acidic Corrosion
We have an issue with sprinkler water becoming acidic 5.5-6 PH. System is 6 months old. The Bellville seal corrodes and cracks resulting in drips from sprinkler. 6 sprinklers so far. City water is not acidic. Test from back flow drain shows acid 5.6. Manufacturer says it is acid water corrosion. Other tests also acidic. Some black pipe, mostly CPVC in an old Frat house System drained and filled 6 times. What can be causing low PH in a few weeks. Pictures show corrosion inside the sprinkler throat and seal. There is also an antifreeze system that does not have this problem. Suggestions please Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Calculating extended coverage
What state are you in? Can I assume you are planning quick response sprinklers. Then why not 900 SF area of application allowance? What part of the code is AHJ using for this requirement. There are residential rules in 13. Use residential heads with .10 density Art Tiroly Tiroly and Associates From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Stough Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 10:51 AM To: Sprinkler Forum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Calculating extended coverage I have a nursing care facility that I am trying to calc. Must be 13 (2007) light. Can not use room design or residential method per state AHJ. The building is shaped like an upper case H with the bottom legs cut off. There are 4 rooms on one side of the corridor and 3 rooms on the other side of the corridor in each upper leg that use extended coverage sprinkler in each room. Also 1 standard spray sprinkler in a closet and one standard spray sprinkler in a bathroom in each room. Sprinklers in the corridor are standard spray also. Since I am using extended coverage sprinklers, I need to calculate 5 minimum. The sprinklers cover 16'3 X 14', so need to calc at the 18' X 18' rate. 22.4.6.2 allows me in "rooms like closets, washrooms and similar small compartments requiring only one sprinkler shall be permitted to be omitted from calculations within the area of application". Can I calculate 6 extended coverage sprinklers, without the corridor or "small rooms or compartments" for my 1500 sq ft? Or should I calc 5 extended coverage and the hallway sprinklers in the 1500 sq ft? Jay Stough NICET IV LAYOUT NICET III ITM ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Two Backflows
Water company requires BFP not NFPA 13, 24. Art Tiroly From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Two Backflows I use RPZ as a generic term. Also I am going under the assumption that I MUST separate my sprinkler from the domestic at the point of connection. However it was brought to my attention that this may not be required in NFPA anyway. While the thought of sprinkler water and domestic water sickens me a bit . can someone show me where NFPA says I must separate them with a backflow? John Irwin Sprinkler Construction Manager Critical System Solutions, LLC Cell: 813.618.2781 Email: jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com <mailto:jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Two Backflows I don't think there's any prohibition and we've been asked to do this before. I would check with serving water and fire departments to be sure that both devices satisfy the requirement of their respective masters. RPZ's are not UL classified for fire service and usually configured with non-indicating valves for general water service. NFPA standards require ALL valves controlling fire protection water supplies to be LISTED (for fire service) indicating type and building code requires them to be supervised. Have fun . Steve From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 8:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Two Backflows I am working on a project where the developer and site contractor have decided that fire and domestic should share an underground line around the site and to the building. At the street there is a meter assembly and a Wilkins 375A RPZ. I would need to install an additional backflow at my point of connection because the line is shared all the way to the water room. Other than being a dumb way to do this and having two pressure losses in my calculations, is there any code that says I can't gave two RPZs in my water line? John Irwin Sprinkler Construction Manager Critical System Solutions, LLC 2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300 St. Petersburg, FL 33716 Office: 727.209.5122 Fax: 727.209.5126 Cell: 813.618.2781 Email: jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com <mailto:jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Forward Flow for a Backflow Preventer
Easy. Calculate GPM through the 1" pipe and fittings in drain line. Doubt you will 100 gpm. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Forward Flow for a Backflow Preventer I did an article in Sprinkler Age (2013 but not sure which issue) on ow to calculate it as well as other options for the forward flow test. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 10:15 AM, James Crawford <jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> wrote: > > I know this has been discussed but can’t seem to find it. > > > > NFPA #13 (2013) 8.17.4.6.1 Means shall be provided downstream of all > backflow prevention valves for flow tests at system demand. > > > > We have a small office system, system demand 160 gpm, we have 100 psi > static pressure, the system has a 2 ˝” riser so a 1 Ľ” drain, how much > water can we get out of an 1 Ľ” drain? > > > > Is there anything out there to help determine the size and or number > of outlets required to forward flow at different system demands? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Class IIIB Liquid Storage
Design requirements are in NFPA 30. How high is storage? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 1:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Class IIIB Liquid Storage A client has a building that is protected with an Ordinary Hazard Group 3 system. They want to store class IIIB combustible liquids in 16 gal and 55 gal drums. Table 9.6.1 gives the MAQ for a IIIB as 13,200 gal with note 1 & 4 and note 4 states that the quantities are not limited if the building is equipped with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with NFPA #13. This seems to imply that they could store an unlimited amount of class IIIB liquids. Table 12.6.2.2 gives the MAQ as 55,000 gal if the building is protected with a sprinkler system designed for class 4 commodities to 20'. Am I missing something Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: EC sprinkler identification
Sometimes you have to wake me up. I just saw this question. Went to google. Tyco uses EC #'s. I saw EC 5, 8, 11, 14 but no EC 10 in there listing. Call Tyco they can help. What size is pipe thread. 1/2 or 3/4"? Art -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 3:01 PM To: SprinklerFORUM Subject: EC sprinkler identification Extended coverage link horizontal sidewall with EC-10 on the deflector. Any clue on the mfg? Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Old pipe schedule
What is the sprinkler spacing? Staggered spacing was quite common before 1940. Newer heads installed? High pressure water supply connected? It likely will barely do .10 density or maybe .15 with moderate pressure. FM used to allow 3-5 psi at end head for pipe schedule. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Old pipe schedule I am working on a project in a mill that was constructed in 1884. On the top floor, the branch piping is 3/4 - 1 - 1. Was there an older version of pipe schedule that allowed smaller pipe or is this just undersized? Hopefully some of you history buffs (or at least those with a bunch of old stuff) would know. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sprinkler Distance from insulated ceilings
Sprinklers don't spray upward. If Foam plastic insul is combustible it burns faster than the sprinklers can operate and water is not sprayed upward. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Richard Carr Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 12:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sprinkler Distance from insulated ceilings 1"-12" below insulation. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com 904-781-8227 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Sprinkler Distance from insulated ceilings Can someone explain to me(sorry I just can't seem to visualize what they are saying. I have a company that wants to spray insulation up on the metal deck of the warehouse. The building is currently sprinklered with branch lines and uprights. I have looked at NFPA 13 2010 sections 8.5.4.1.3.1 and 8.5.4.1.3.2. How far must the deflector be from the sprayed insulation. Just for note I have researched the flame spread and smoke index of the insulation. Thanks Tom Reinhardt Fire Inspector/Plan Reviewer Skokie Fire Department 7424 Niles Center Road Skokie, IL 60077 Office: 847-982-5342 thomas.reinha...@skokie.org<mailto:thomas.reinha...@skokie.org> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Oversized fire pump
In Ohio we are required to provide a low suction control panel that will shut the pump off and sound an alarm. Later we now must provide a pressure sustaining valve that throttles the fire pump discharge flow to maintain a predetermined low suction pressure 10 psi on the suction to protect the public water pressure Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 11:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Oversized fire pump Mark, The 18 psi suction pressure is at the suction flange of the pump. There is friction loss in the underground piping and BFP so the pressure at the street will be greater. Given we have a steep curve (90 static and goes to 0 at 1900 gpm) and the size of the pump (1500 at 85), I am concerned if we have a big draw in an uncontrolled situation, unlike a pump test, do we have the potential of a serious problem. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2] On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 11:13 AM, mphe...@aerofire.com <mphe...@aerofire.com> wrote: Todd, When you talk about drawing the suction pressure down to 20 psi, is your reference point at the pump suction gauge, or at the connection to the city water main? Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 8:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Oversized fire pump No the water supply was the same. Not sure where this came from but could be an IOR mistake. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2] On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:46 AM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com <craig.pr...@ch2m.com> wrote: It may have been sized correctly in 2009 but the municipal water supply has degraded since then. Suction control valve is the way to go to fix the problem. That will keep the supply from being drawn down below 20 psi. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 7:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Oversized fire pump I am working on a facility with a fire pump that was oversized for the available public water supply. The pump is 1500 gpm at 85 psi. At 1500 gpm, the suction pressure drops to 18 psi. This is characteristic of the water supply and is not due to a shut valve or other obstruction. The pump was installed in 2009. Are there any safeguards that I should recommend for this situation? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Galvanized in 1986 wet system
Some threadable light wall pipe was galvanized on the outer pipe wall but not inside the pipe. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 9:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Galvanized in 1986 wet system It states it was a wet system, so the c-factor would not have been an influence. I think Todd hit it on the head...extra materials in shop to go through. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign On 1/31/2016 7:03 PM, Vince Sabolik wrote: > If there is a pattern it was probably done for a better c factor - 120 vs 100. I did some like this. > > On Jan 31, 2016, Todd Williams <fpdcdes...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Sounds like someone may have needed to clean out the shop. Are the >> pieces randomly installed or is there a pattern? >> >> Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT >> 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic >> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2] >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 8:42 PM, >> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: >> Gentlemen, >> I have never seen this before. There is a mixture of galvanized and >> black steel pipe used in a wet system in a normal circa 1986 4-story >> office building in the Southeast. >> >> Because I have never seen this before in thousands of buildings, I am >> assuming that this is a problem. >> >> Does anyone have further information? >> >> Thank you for your insight. >> ___ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org ___ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org > Somehow, Verizon got this to you! > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Locker Rooms
I think the allowable storage in light hazard occupancy is 6-7Ft. Think about a light hazard library with rows of book shelves. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of aaron rohr Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 9:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Locker Rooms Really, Ask him if he wants all cabinets to be covered by OH1? Do you think the heads are listed for closed compartments? Is NFPA 13 intended to cover every space? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Calcs with soffits
We have a discussion about sidewall and pendant sprinklers in a 36" x 16" soffit that surrounds a dorm rooms in a jail. Do the QR pendant sprinklers need to be calculated with the QR sidewall sprinklers in the 900 SF area? We have 14 sprinklers flowing in areas that seems excessive and not required. Can't find where this covered in 13. Appreciate your help. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Calcs with soffits
We are required to install 5.6K Institutional sprinklers due to jail occupancy. The pendant sprinklers are 16" below the ceiling. The room would need to be an inferno to fuse all the pendants. Any other opinions please. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Calcs with soffits Can you use 4.2 or 2.8k sprinklers to cut down discharge? I don't think anything in 13 will say not to calc all in a room. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 5, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: > > We have a discussion about sidewall and pendant sprinklers in a 36" x 16" > soffit that surrounds a dorm rooms in a jail. > > Do the QR pendant sprinklers need to be calculated with the QR > sidewall sprinklers in the 900 SF area? We have 14 sprinklers flowing > in areas that seems excessive and not required. Can't find where this covered in 13. > > Appreciate your help. > > Art Tiroly > ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly > 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 > 216-621-8899 > 216-570-7030 cell > > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips
How did you get a pitot higher than the residual? Can't happen. Gage error? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Colin Carew (Cambridge) Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips Hey Brad for sure , Our first test static and residual - 73 / 68 with 75 pito on play pipe with 1¼ tip 2nd test static and residual - 74 / 69 and my flow after coefficient is right in line with yours ! We did the test at approximately the same time 9pm at night . hydrants were on 12 main ( mains are less than 10 years old and on loop . ) -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: May-13-15 9:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips Thanks! If the Coefficient of Discharge for a 'pollard diffuser' is .9--- h= 42/.433=97 ft v=(2gh)^.5=79 ft/sec ((2.5/24)^2)*pi= .034 ft^2, * 79 ft/sec= 2.69 ft^3/sec, *7.48*60= 1207 GPM, * .9= 1086 GPM. (using 29.84*c*d^2*p^.5 gives 1088 GPM, but I like seeing the velocity, and I rounded down). Without the static and residual for both though we cannot compare the graphs, which is what I was interested in. Would it be too 'proprietary' to post those? Even though the gauged hydrant did not change elevation between the two tests, it is possible (and likely) there was different amounts of domestic use during the tests. Roland, before you have to nip me in the bud again I want you to know I am not trying to make this thread a clearing house for tons of water flow data :) Brad -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Colin Carew (Cambridge) Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 6:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips New flow test results - 2½ pollard diffuser - Pito of 42 - -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: May-07-15 10:33 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips you're welcome! please post the static, residual, and flow here from both tests-- it would be informative to see how they compare!!! Brad -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Colin Carew (Cambridge) Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 9:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips Its ordinary Group 2 , based on just that 300 for the system demand . I used the in-correct coefficient . thanks ! I am going to do another test , luckily in my bad luck this is close to my office . -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: May-07-15 10:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips What is your estimated demand? Coefficient of Discharge for playpipes is .97--- h= 70/.433=161.66 ft v=(2gh)^.5=102.03 ft/sec ((1.25/24)^2)*pi= .008522 ft^2, * 102.03 ft/sec= .8695 ft^3/sec, *7.48*60= 390 GPM, * .97= 379 GPM. Brad -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Colin Carew (Cambridge) Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 9:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips Hey All , I just did a flow test last night . Instead of flowing just the 2½ butt and getting the pitot pressure like I have done for years , We used (1) Play pipe with 1 1/4 Tip . When I convert the pito of 70 to GPM with the 0.90 Coefficient to = 363.41 GPM .Should I have flowed both sides with two play pipes to determine a higher flow rate . I have an old flow test from Two years ago that has a flow rate of 1186 Gpm . I am going to do another test next week and just flow the 2½ butt with no playpipes . Colin ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list
RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips
I got a flow test with a much higher pitot than residual due to a 51 Ft. elevation change. Art ATCO -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 1:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips Also, I think you missed what Art said, he was referring to the Pitot pressure in excess of the residual, and actually, I believe that can happen when testing with a Playpipe due to the increase in velocity. Or I could have just made that up steve. :-0 Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Flow test - Playpipe w/ 1 1/4 Tips Technically it can happen. When the supply drops, additional supply pumps kick on, creating a residual pressure greater than the static. No guidance in NFPA 24 in how to address so if one applies a literal read, you extrapolate toward infinity. It's in the works to address. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org http://www.firesprinkler.org/ On May 13, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Art Tiroly atir...@atcofirepro.com wrote: How did you get a pitot higher than the residual? Can't happen. Gage error? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Main Drain Coefficient
Without a pitot at the outlet no way to tell. You can try to hydraulic calculate the flow through the 2 valve, ells and pipe length using static/residual psi at the riser. Art -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Frazier Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 3:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Main Drain Coefficient I understand the intent, however I need to calculate the gallons. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 3:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Main Drain Coefficient It is not the intent of a main drain test to measure the flow, only the pressure drop. Steve L. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Frazier Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 12:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Main Drain Coefficient Is it necessary to use a coefficient for a main drain test like you do on a fire hydrant? I know you use the coefficient because the stream doesn't have a perfect discharge column. If you do need to use it, what would it be for a 45° or a 90°? Jeremy Frazier P:571-931-1004 F:571-931-1010 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: MAPP Construction
Who is MAPP Construction? Who is the AHJ? Art -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of proud-texan Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: MAPP Construction If any of you have had experience with a GC called MAPP Construction please contact me off forum. Your experience and evaluation would be greatly appreciated because they are demanding that we deviate from NFPA and are holding $$ because we will not. (bship...@mmmpha.com) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Stainless Steel pipe in sprinkler systems
The problem may be joining pipe and outlets. What about copper? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Morey, Mike Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 9:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Stainless Steel pipe in sprinkler systems I'm sure this has been addressed but I'm not finding it after some searching, are there stainless pipes that fall into the general approvals of NFPA 13 (I don't have full access to ASTM/ANSI but the stuff called out in NFPA 13 doesn't seem to be for stainless pipe), or is there specifically approved stainless pipe/fittings for sprinkler work? Or will we need to get a variance based on it being better? We're working in a clean environment and are probably going to provide socket weld fittings or threaded fittings and back weld them (other than the heads obviously). Socket weld fittings are mentioned, but the only mention of stainless anywhere in the standard is the C factor table. Mike Morey, CFPS, SET Planner Scheduler/Designer BMWC Constructors, Inc. 1740 W. Michigan St, Indianapolis, IN 46222 O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111 mo...@bmwc.comhttps://owa.bmwc.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=hEc2LsZXLUqfB3v1fAsIUDt QSkfsw9AIUxDXhx81O08DpGEK3NHRaSbWuncnZEk-mLpe2vYiBJY.URL=mailto%3amanta%40b mwc.com | www.bmwc.comhttps://owa.bmwc.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=hEc2LsZXLUqfB3v1fAsIUDtQS kfsw9AIUxDXhx81O08DpGEK3NHRaSbWuncnZEk-mLpe2vYiBJY.URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.bmw c.com%2f ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
