RE: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
Group After reading Ray's reply, I realise I had written LISN instead of CDN. Kindly replace LISN with CDN in my original posting. Rgds From: r...@rpgarner.freeserve.co.uk [SMTP:r...@rpgarner.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:39 PM To: Chris Chileshe; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6 Chris, I would suggest you need to change your test house. A good test house would already have power supplies available fed via filters to the test bench. They would also have ambient measurement information available to proof that their power supply was suitable for testing. I am also somewhat surprised that you make no reference to an ambient test having been performed on your set up. Also contrary to popular belief LISNs are not filters they only purpose is to provide a known impedance. I have in the past seen test houses cause more problems than they solve by not checking or using correct test set ups. Ray Garner EMC Consultant WRSL Message date : Sep 24 2003, 12:19 PM From : Chris Chileshe To : emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Copy to : Subject : DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6 Group, After quite a struggle to get a product through conducted immunity tests (clamp method), I finally discovered that the weak link in the chain was in fact my laboratory power supply which I have been taking along with me to a nearby test house. The problem remained undetected for a number of reasons, not least that I had used the same setup before at a different test house using their PSU ( Solartron ASxxx) and had better results, but mostly because we were using a small chamber dedicated to conducted immunity tests and using a camera to monitor the behaviour of the EUT behind closed doors and not keeping an eye on the PSU. When we eventually tracked the anomalous behaviour of the EUT to the PSU, we tried LISNs and a different PSU both of which improved the test results significantly but the outcome was still not good enough from a product compliance point of view. Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - UK (O.O.O.) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk File: ATT00011.htm This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web
DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
Group, After quite a struggle to get a product through conducted immunity tests (clamp method), I finally discovered that the weak link in the chain was in fact my laboratory power supply which I have been taking along with me to a nearby test house. The problem remained undetected for a number of reasons, not least that I had used the same setup before at a different test house using their PSU ( Solartron ASxxx) and had better results, but mostly because we were using a small chamber dedicated to conducted immunity tests and using a camera to monitor the behaviour of the EUT behind closed doors and not keeping an eye on the PSU. When we eventually tracked the anomalous behaviour of the EUT to the PSU, we tried LISNs and a different PSU both of which improved the test results significantly but the outcome was still not good enough from a product compliance point of view. Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - UK (O.O.O.) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Was Lightning Surge Characterization/Standards THANKS
Ed writes .. Once again, John forces me to resort to deep references. You and me both! However, I'm relieved, as I thought he implied that your name was horse-like Ditto! And the relief was felt here too once a dictionary had been consulted. Everything should be back to normal once I phone mother and tell her I didn't mean any of the things I said last night about her choice of names. I guess this is the part where I sit back and wait for the Out-of-office replies while looking around for any excuse to use epicene to stun someone else in the office (preferably middle management) into using a dictionary. I guess I got comfortable with 'unisex'. Rgds - ChrisTOPHER p/s John writes .. I don't recall any post recently that indicates a female source. Interesting observation. From: Price, Ed [SMTP:ed.pr...@cubic.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:07 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: Lightning Surge Characterization/Standards THANKS -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 9:23 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Lightning Surge Characterization/Standards THANKS I read in !emc-pstc that Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com wrote (in 01c35ce5.8dbac680.chris.chile...@ultronics.com) about 'Lightning Surge Characterization/Standards THANKS' on Thu, 7 Aug 2003: Err.. should that read Ladies and Gentlemen? There may well be some ladies who are members of the group, but I don't recall any post recently that indicates a female source. Of course, your name is epicene Once again, John forces me to resort to deep references. However, I'm relieved, as I thought he implied that your name was horse-like. For mere mortals: Main Entry: ep.i.cene Pronunciation: 'e-p-sEn Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin epicoenus, from Greek epikoinos, from epi- + koinos common List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 15th century 1 of a noun : having but one form to indicate either sex 2 a : having characteristics typical of the other sex : INTERSEXUAL b : EFFEMINATE 3 : lacking characteristics of either sex - epicene noun - ep.i.cen.ism /-sE-ni-zm, e-p-'/ noun Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk File: ATT4.htm This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Automotive Directive
Hi Bob, You wrote .. I have a copy of the Directive 95/54/EEC on order. Unless things have changed from when I last looked, one should be able to download the directive from sources such as http://www.europa.eu.int On naming, unlike the other directives, it ends in EC rather than EEC i.e. 95/54/EC The Directive only contains tests for broadband emissions, narrowband emissions, and radiated immunity. True. It sets limits for emissions based on ... CISPR 12 I think .. and sets the radiated immunity level at 24V/m, so a general test level of 30V/m is the norm. No tests exist for conducted emissions, immunity to transients, or ESD. True. Do (or can) auto manufacturers require tests outside of the Automotive Directive? Yes. And they do. Almost invariably, depending on the product. This is because the directive covers all equipment used in vehicles but makes no distinction between safety critical control-related equipment such as ABS, Steering, Engine management and less critical equipment like car stereos. That it doesn't address the power supply transients has been deemed a shortcoming by some but has been defended by others in some circles where arguments such as the equipment could be self powered have been presented. The Agricultural and Forestry vehicle manufacturers will often insist you apply EN ISO 14982, which covers the requirements of the directive but includes the 'missing' tests. Individual manufacturers then begin placing restrictions on how much quiescent current draw your equipment is allowed to draw in 'stand-by'. Often, it is best to think through how, when, where and by whom the equipment will be connected, and then devise a complete approvals strategy based on this info but I am sure you know all this. In addition to including the additional tests, vehicle manufacturers may also require higher stress levels for radiated immunity. 50V/m and 100V/m are common examples, and the conducted immunity spectrum often extends down from 30Mhz to audio frequencies. Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd (Own Opinions Only .. etc) From: rehel...@mmm.com [SMTP:rehel...@mmm.com] Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:50 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Automotive Directive I have a copy of the Directive 95/54/EEC on order. Can anyone tell me if the following are true: The Directive only contains tests for broadband emissions, narrowband emissions, and radiated immunity. No tests exist for conducted emissions, immunity to transients, or ESD. Do (or can) auto manufacturers require tests outside of the Automotive Directive? Thanks in advance, Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 === This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived
RE: CE or e-mark? Was pls help me
Hi Zhang, If the product is meant for use on vehicles, then you should have it 'e'- marked. The appropriate EMC directive for the e-mark is 95/54/EC and should be available on the internet free. Depending on the what the lamp is for, there may be additional requirements in the SAE standards. To the best of my knowledge, the directive does not require conducted emissions to be performed but some vehicle manufacturers may insist on it as the directive appears to have a number of shortcomings, which I am told are being addressed. Best regards - Chris Chileshe --- (Own Opinions Only etc etc) From: qiaofeng.zh...@nb.chn.tuv.com [SMTP:qiaofeng.zh...@nb.chn.tuv.com] Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 5:52 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:pls help me There is a fluorescent lamp luminaire used in cars which is to be certification.My questions is can it only apply for emc-ce or it shall apply for E-mark and I also want to know the standards of this produce for EMC and E-mark respectively. thanks for any feedback. Zhang qiaofeng This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Medical grade PSU and Grounding techniques
Hello group, I am a novice to medical grade electrical equipment requirements so it is quite likely my query is one that has received responses on this forum time and time again. You will be pleased to note that I received the 'relevant sections' of the standard EN 60601 this morning, and the Forklift truck that dropped them off has left the premises (so I jest, but they might as well have been delivered by Forklift!.. I didn't realise the standard was that size! ). Query Are there any UL standards I should be looking at in conjunction with EN 60601? I have been looking at commercially available medical grade PSU's and I find the 5-way DIN connector extensively used. Is this the preferred connector? If so which standard should I be looking at to design the mating part? If not, is there a section of the standard which recommends connector types? The 5-way DIN connector from different manufacturers appears to have the same pin assignments. Is the metallic ring around the pins assigned a function such as Earth etc? No manufacturer I have looked at seems to have this explained. If the ring around the 5-way DIN is not used for earthing (grounding) is there a requirement for DC powered equipment to be earthed, and if so, how is this achieved? I need to include an indicator (l.e.d.) for a 'power on' condition. Does EN 60601-1, Clause 6.7 apply ( i.e. Red, Yellow, Green and other for such a function )?. Your help is much appreciated, and thanx in advance. Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd (Own views only etc etc) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: surge Z?
It is always a good idea to have a copy of the standard. If it is DC/DC converter, you might find some of the footnotes in the generic immunity standards such as EN 61000-6-2 useful. Example [paraphrased]: Apparatus with a d.c. power input port intended for use with an ac-dc power adaptor shall be tested on the ac power input of the power adaptor specified by the manufacturer, or where none is so specified, using a typical ac-dc power adaptor. The surge test is not applicable to dc power input ports intended to be permanently connected to cables less than 10m There are other notes addressing testing of signal lines. Regards - Chris Chileshe (own views etc etc) From: drcuthbert [SMTP:drcuthb...@micron.com] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 5:15 PM To: 'jrbar...@iglou.com'; drcuthbert; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: surge Z? Thanks to everyone for the numbers. To clarify, the device is a DC/DC converter. We will be applying the surge to the DC input and to the DC output. I have ordered EN 61000-4-5 to get the details. Dave From: John Barnes [mailto:jrbar...@iglou.com] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:45 AM To: drcuthbert; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: surge Z? Dave, Section 6.1 of EN 61000-4-5:1995 says the generator has an effective output impedance of 2 ohms. John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, ESDC Eng., SM IEEE dBi Corporation http://www.dbicorporation.com/ This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Help wanted with succinct subject description for non-specialists
Richard asks.. My questions to the list are: What are your experiences of producing similar material? How well was it received and what is your advice for people producing similar text? Always a difficult (but absolutely essential) task I find. You may have to stand in front of the audience with visual aids and an adequate supply of examples of EMC horrors to keep their attention. If the marketing manager's attention begins to fail them, mention litigation. If you must explain the certification process, list the various (numerous) tests that go into the process, distinguishing between them and the severity levels used (e.g. V/m for RI, kV for ESD etc) It always helps to explain clearly that mitigation usually requires a combination of electrical and mechanical measures. This makes the mechanical engineers sit up. Once you have taken them through it, you will find they are better disposed to read and understand the written work. Try not to be too simplistic, otherwise you will despair when after a seemingly successful presentation, you start hearing phrases like EMC rating of 30V/m. You may have to patiently point out that the unit V/m does not refer to all EMC tests. You might want to make a note of repeat offenders at this stage and run a 3-strikes and you're out policy, ably implemented with an ESD gun and strategically located ground plane. Should you run such a policy, beware of any fluid dynamics presentations to which the repeat offenders might invite you! Good luck, and remember, it is a worthwhile undertaking! Best regards - Chris Chileshe From: King, Richard [SMTP:richard.k...@uk.thalesgroup.com] Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:07 AM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Help wanted with succinct subject description for non-specialists Dear all, I am working on an article about EMC for an internal newsletter. The aim is to increase awareness of the EMC related projects on which my colleagues and I are currently engaged. The target audience is largely composed of engineers specialising in other subject areas (software, systems and hardware), managers and support staff. snip This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Books on Intrinsic safety and ATEX - thanx.
Group, Thank you everyone for your replies and pointers. As usual, your advice has been well informed and most useful. Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Chris Chileshe [SMTP:chris.chile...@ultronics.com] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 1:00 PM To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Subject:Books on Intrinsic safety and ATEX Group, The last response to recommended reading on basic EMC was very good. Are there some recommended texts on application of the intrinsic safety standards, designing for I.S. and/or application of the directive? Any thoughts/pointers welcome Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd, UK This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: CISPR 22 A1:2000
Ladies and Gents, Kindly assign subject headers to your e-mails. It helps with mail sorting (both manual and auto) and identification of viruses. Mail without a subject header always looks very suspicious. Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [SMTP:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:09 AM To: 'Conway, Patrick R'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:RE: Patrick, I performed some A/B comparison measurements several years ago when this was still working its way through CISPR to aid in the determination of the US vote. I found that some emissions go down (some by a bunch) and others may go up when you add the clamps. You will need to re-test products for Europe as you can't predict what the change will by just by inspection. BTW, this amendment to CISPR 22 passed by 1 vote. The US voted no as the clamps were not adequately defined in the proposal. Ghery Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: Conway, Patrick R [mailto:conw...@louisville.stortek.com] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 2:53 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: All- I'd like to know if there are any opinions about... It is my understanding the CISPR 22 A1:2000 will require the use of ferrite clamps during RE tests of table-top equipment. Has anyone started using these devices during their testing? Has anyone seen a difference in their test results with the use of these devices? Best Regards, Patrick Conway NCE StorageTek EMC Advisory Engineer 303.661.6391 303.661.6717 (FAX) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Books on Intrinsic safety and ATEX - summary
The replies I got and some useful web sources ... __ The Canadian Standards association published a book Hazardous Locations, A guide for the design, construction and installation of Electrical Equipment. It was written Pre-ATEX Directive, and I do not know if it has been updated since then, but I find that it is a great reference document. __ ... an excellent primer on explosion protection by R. Stahl .. http://www.rstahl.com/Exprotection/index.htm Click on the pdf Basics of Explosion Protection for an in depth look at this subject. It's about 4.5 Mb. The answers to your questions are in there plus a whole lot more. _ The best resource I know of is Factory Mutual Research, Most of their standards are free or extremely cheap. And they always answer the phone. I am told they also are good with email, although I haven't bothered to test that. _ Consider Intrinsically Safe Instrumentation Guide Robin Garside, Hexagon via RS components 907-894. Web source: Dr. -Ing. Hans-Jurgen Linstrom Basic requirements for explosion protection http://www.bartec.se/pdf/explo.pdf ___ Web source: CEAG Sicherheitstechnik GmbH Cooper Crouse-Hinds Principles of Explosion Protection http://www.safeexit.dk/files/pdf/Terminologi%20Ex.pdf ___ Adams, J. Maxwell, Electrical Safety - a guide to the causes and prevention of electrical hazards, The Institution of Electrical Engineers, IEE Power Series 19, London, 1994 (ISBN 0 85296 806 X) ___ Regards - Chris This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Books on Intrinsic safety and ATEX
Group, The last response to recommended reading on basic EMC was very good. Are there some recommended texts on application of the intrinsic safety standards, designing for I.S. and/or application of the directive? Any thoughts/pointers welcome Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd, UK This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: STOP-ocoss
Could this be the Statutory Term of presumption of conformity of superseded standard? Of course I jest! I tried to take the easy way out by splitting up the word and effectively changing the short form to a phrase Doc of POCOSS but then realised that was all wrong and intuitively means Document of Presumption of Conformity of Superseded Standard. There is no way out! As people working with international standards, we need to be able to correctly pronounce John's word (sorry John, my google search came up with, not a short list, but exactly one hit ). It would have been nice to come to some sort of consensus on how the word is to be pronounced if we are to save face at meetings. It is now just a matter of time before the standards themselves carry the word Docopocoss, and having not agreed on a pronunciation, we'll find ourselves opting out of public embarrassment by referring to the cessation date and looking around the table quickly for some brave soul to risk all by saying out loud Oh! The docopocoss I guess Ed's rhyme will have to suffice for now. Best regards - Chris This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: ENGLISH, STILL OFF TOPIC!
Ted, I have just been to the site and agree it is excellent. I cannot believe the many differences! It is almost a wonder we communicate at all!! Once or twice I went That's why he didn't understand or So that's what she meant. Of course a lot of it can be deduced from context, but there are some really interesting ones there .. but still no 'strangler' under motoring. - Chris (UK) -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [SMTP:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:37 PM To: Subject:ENGLISH, STILL OFF TOPIC! The website recommended I think by Jacob earlier at http://www.effingpot.com is excellent. I had no idea there were so many peculiar 'Bringlish' words and phrases, and I'm speaking as a Brit. Recommended reading for all, very entertaining and good for Anglo-American relations! Ed, thanks for the Amphibicar pic. Working on it must be a real relief after MIL this and ANSI that!. Best Regards Ted Rook, Console Engineering, ext 4659 Please note our new location and phone numbers: Crest Audio Inc, 16-00 Pollitt Drive Fair Lawn, NJ 07410 USA 201 475 4600 telephone receptionist, 8.30 - 5 pm EST. 201 475 4659 direct line w/voice mail, 24 hrs. 201 475 4677 fax, 24 hrs. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Baffled by EFT test results (EN61000-4-4)
Hi Group, So I went ahead and built a test PCB with my inductors and ferrites in PI filter formation with capacitors - just like I threatened to do a few months ago ( e-mail subject header Designing for low power radiated and conducted immunity describing a small 3-wire low power DC pressure sensor). The analog circuit simulating a pressure sensor is simply a 5V regulator (LP2985) supplying a AD623 IN-amp monitoring the differential voltage across a wheatstone bridge (4k7) connected to the same 5V rail. The output then simply connects to an Avometer (through a PI filter of course). A variant of the test PCB doesn't even have the regulator. It is that simple. I took the PCB through radiated immunity testing to EN 61000-4-3 and met 100V/m, and through conducted immunity testing to EN 61000-4-6 and met the 10V level. All tests were done with unscreened cable. I also proved the protected circuit was susceptible when the filter was removed. Having decided I had sized my inductors, ferrites and caps appropriately, and done the PCB layout correctly, I then proceeded to add small SMT varistors for transients to EN 61000-4-4. The test PCB was again good for 2kV. I then shuffled the relative positions of the varistors in the circuit (initially pre- PI filter, then post PI filter ) and it didn't seem to make any difference. The idea was to get some permutations of varistor location and then repeat the RF immunity tests in case the varistors introduced susceptibility (an observation I have made in the past). I then took the varistors off the board altogether and still the PCB meets the 2kV stress levels ( I am using the levels of EN 61000-6-2 ). I am not too keen to raise the stakes to 4kV just now because there are more tests I would like to perform on the PCB before I let it go up in smoke. This is probably the first time I have seen anything get through transients testing without any explicit measures to mitigate against failure. Has anyone experienced this? Is there an explanation for this? I have always used varistors almost as a matter of course, so you can understand my surprise. Could it be I have over-designed my RF filter to the point it is good enough for the EFTs as well? The caps are only rated for 50V though ( the clamping voltages of the varistors). Could it be the caps are in fact rated for such transients although this may not be stated explicitly? Should I prolong the exposure of the varistor-free circuit at 2kV to see if I am dealing with delayed failure potentially? I have been setting my burst duration to 1 minute. Any pointers? Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Testing for dry joints - :)
Scott asks .. So I give up - just what exactly is a dry joint? Dry joint: Electrical context: - A solder joint in which the electrical connection between two conductors has been poorly formed by the solder material; a consequence of incomplete formation or surfaces not properly wetted by the soldering material. Testing for these - as this group has shown - can be quite difficult. For more information on this type of dry joint, visit http://www.circuitsassembly.com Glastonbury Context: - Crushed weed or herbs of various descriptions usually rolled up in light paper ( tabloid newspapers make excellent wrappers) and used exactly like cigarettes. Testing for a dry joint should be done in secrecy as there are legal connotations associated with their use. In the interest of keeping this forum blameless, the quest for more information on this type of joint will be left to the reader. Rastafarian context: - Sensemelia dat bringz I an' I guud vibes man! Jah be prezd! Tess-teeng nat necessary. U av' some', u gretful, U pass it round, U a good frend, but wen U pass it around, keep it an de left 'and side. Night club context: - A night club that has run out of liquor. Testing for these is visual. They will usually have no revelers. Butcher's context: - Leg of lamb of the Halal variety, dried or well done . Testing for these is essential as 'succulent' might be the preferred end result of the culinary process. Surgeon's context: - Quality and effectiveness of lubrication following hip replacement. Testing inevitable. Homeless context: - Welcome refuge on rainy nights. Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Scott Douglas [SMTP:dougl...@naradnetworks.com] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 8:34 PM To: Chris Chileshe; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: Testing for dry joints Chris, So I give up - just what exactly is a dry joint? Scott At 09:55 AM 10/9/2002 +0100, Chris Chileshe wrote: Hi Group, Probably not the appropriate forum but here goes anyway. A colleague is finding numerous problems with subtle dry joints (partial) between connectors and PCBs and is wondering if there is a way - short of new procedures in process control - that dry joints can be tested for? The specific problem is that the joints appear to be electrically sound to start with, meaning the units are getting through function test, but once exposed to endurance (lengthy) tests or worse still, actual practical use, the gremlins begin to show. The fault analysis almost invariably leads to a connector dry joint. The connectors are rated for 6A DC continuous. Any ideas how these can be picked up early or what measures you have in production to eradicate these problems? Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line
RE: requirement for surge and EFT
Hi George, I haven't got a copy of EN55024, but if it is anything like the format of EN61000-6-2, then the info you are looking for will appear as 'notes' under immunity testing of dc input and output ports will read ... [EFTs Surge] Not applicable to input ports intended for connection to a battery or a rechargeable battery which must be removed or disconnected from the apparatus for recharging. Apparatus with a d.c. power input port intended for use with an ac-dc power adaptor shall be tested on the a.c. power input of the ac-dc power adaptor specified by the manufacturer or, where none is specified, using a typical ac-dc power adaptor. The test is not applicable to d.c. power input ports intended to be permanently connected to cables less than 10m in length This excerpt from BS EN 61000-6-2:1999 Table 3, Note 3. Not sure if EN55024 has similar statement. Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd -Original Message- From: George Stults [SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:13 PM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject:requirement for surge and EFT Hello Group, I am talking with an offshore manufacturer who is suggesting that their CE marked ITE gear does not have to pass Surge and EFT since it runs off 12Vdc, normally provided by an AC/DC power supply, which is supplied in the same package. They suggest that the AC/DC power supply, but not the ITE, has to pass Surge, etc. I'm sure that the whole system has to pass, but I don't know chapter and verse to quote. I suppose the scope should be spelled out in EN55024 but I don't have a copy of it, yet. Thanks in advance. George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Testing for dry joints - Thank you
Thank you everyone for your very informed replies on the subject. 'Endurance' and 'use' does indeed involve vibration. The units are used on off-highway heavy duty vehicles and forklifts. The contacts are not gold-plated and I am glad I didn't make that clear because the info forthcoming (Thank you JW) is quite relevant to a second product I am working on. What is clear is that it is best to sort out the process. Saves one a lot of grief later on. Your replies have provided the much needed leverage to get process control to take responsibility. Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Testing for dry joints
Hi Group, Probably not the appropriate forum but here goes anyway. A colleague is finding numerous problems with subtle dry joints (partial) between connectors and PCBs and is wondering if there is a way - short of new procedures in process control - that dry joints can be tested for? The specific problem is that the joints appear to be electrically sound to start with, meaning the units are getting through function test, but once exposed to endurance (lengthy) tests or worse still, actual practical use, the gremlins begin to show. The fault analysis almost invariably leads to a connector dry joint. The connectors are rated for 6A DC continuous. Any ideas how these can be picked up early or what measures you have in production to eradicate these problems? Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz
Ian wrote .. I believe the generic standard EN61000-6-2 refers to testing using pulsed modulation at 900MHz only. to which John replies .. I can't find any mention of that in EN 61000-6-2. Agreed. I test to EN 61000-6-2 and I have never come across this requirement. I have just been re-reading BS EN 61000:6-2:1999 and I still can't find this requirement. Was this an error on the part of the originator in which case I can rest assured my test results and DoCs are valid? Regards - Chris This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Automotive EMC Standards
Hi Robert, I think you will find ISO 7932 gives general guidance for the enumeration of Bacillus cereus i.e. microbiology. Only a typo I know, but what a difference it can make when you actually order the standard! I believe you meant ISO 7637. I have never had to design for a cigarette lighter adapter, so somewhat uncertain about the quality of that supply. The following assumes it is as noisy as the rest of the vehicle supply. First, decide if your ESA ( electronic sub-assembly) is meant for use exclusively in agricultural equipment or in commercial road vehicles. If the former, apply ISO 14982 as the generic EMC standard. If the latter, then apply the automotive directive 95/54/EC. If both, then use the automotive directive making sure that the severity levels applied are at no point lower than the requirements of ISO 14982. THEN, ensure that the additional tests called up by ISO 14982 are included. ISO 7637-3 should address supply transients in both 12 and 24V systems. ISO 7637-1 relates to 12V systems and ISO 7637-2 to 24V systems. These standards cover the vehicle supply system transients, called automotive test pulses, effectively the equivalents of EFTs, surge and voltage dips in generic EMC testing. Take particular note of test pulse 5, the automotive load dump, which is very severe and has a habit of sending prototypes up in smoke. Check early if test pulse 4, the cranking pulse, will affect your equipment. Add to the list ISO TR 10605 for ESD. The levels from when I last checked are 8kV contact, 15kV air discharge for ESA's accessible only from within the vehicle, and 25kV for ESA's that can be accessed from outside the vehicle e.g. through open window. (ISO 11498 may call for lower ESD ratings). Add ISO 11452 for radiated immunity using limits prescribed by customer, ISO 14982 (agricultural equipment) or automotive directive (30V/m) in that order of priority. The test frequencies are nominally 150kHz to 1Ghz but you will find most vehicle manufacturers insist on tests starting at around 10kHz. ISO 11452 is in 7 parts, with a general section and 6 test methods, including part 2: Absorber lined chamber, 3: TEM cell, 4: Bulk current injection, 5: Stripline, 6: Parallel plate antenna and part 7: Direct RF power injection. Each of these has an applicable frequency range in the spectrum 10kHz-18Ghz with overlap of course. SAEJ1113 gives the test setup for coupling of audio-frequency noise and repeats (and quotes) ISO 7637 and ISO TR 10605. I don't think it is required by the automotive directive by most vehicle manufacturers will insist on it. Add CISPR 25 for conducted emissions ( note: not required by automotive directive but again vehicle manufacturers might insist). Add the test method and limits of the automotive directive 95/54/EC for radiated emissions. Safety is covered by the SAE standards. Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd -Original Message- From: robert.s...@flextronics.com [SMTP:robert.s...@flextronics.com] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 1:17 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Automotive EMC Standards We are developing a device which will have a charging adapter using a 12V cigarette lighter. What EMC standards for emission and immunity cover such devices. We have looked at ISO 7937-2. it seems to cover only 24V commercial vehicles. There is a draft version that we do not have, but the tile mentions 12 and 24 volt system vehicles. Can someone please direct us to the correct standard? Thank you, Robert Seay Flextronics Compliance Labs 762 Park Avenue Youngsville, NC 27596 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus
RE: Current from Car 12V cigarette lighter socket / 42 VDC
Jim, Does equipment intended to be connected to the lighter have to conform to the automotive transient immunity requirements (ISO 7637/ SAE J1113) in its own right i.e. not assume the power to the lighter is a 'clean' supply? Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Jim Eichner [SMTP:jim.eich...@xantrex.com] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 7:05 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC - forum' Subject:RE: Current from Car 12V cigarette lighter socket / 42 VDC Well that's the $1M question, isn't it! My involvement is tangential at best, but my understanding is that the effort is not going to be coordinated as a grand simultaneous roll-out. Rather each mfr of cars, trucks, boats, etc, will get around to it based on their own needs. The drivers for this effort vary widely - vehicle emissions, increased electrical loads, drive-by-wire technology, etc. - and the 42Vdc agenda for a given mfr is to some extent determined by the agenda for those features or regulations. There is much technology still to be developed and much standardization work still to be done, but the work is well in progress. Is there anyone on the forum who has a more inside view of this and can share some information with us? In the meantime, have a look at the web. Searching on 42V can yield a lot of hits. Here's one I found that summarizes things a bit: http://www.sae.org/42volt/dual_higher_sum.pdf Jim Eichner, P.Eng. Manager, Engineering Services Xantrex Technology Inc. e-mail: jim.eich...@xantrex.com web: www.xantrex.com Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really exists. Honest. No really. Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. -Original Message- From: Price, Ed [mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 6:42 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC - forum' Subject: RE: Current from Car 12V cigarette lighter socket / 42 VDC Pardon the slight topic shift, but when will we be seeing 42 VDC automotive systems? I understand that there has already been some fleet vehicle production with the 42 VDC standard, but when will it be introduced to the consumer market? Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/
RE: EMI from heatsinks - humor
Bill's AutoSignature reads .. Friends are those people who know the words to the song in your heart and sing them back to you when you have forgotten the words. (unattributed) *** Visit us at www.artesyn.com/cp ** Friends or incompetent surgeons who leave their minidisc player in your chest after a bypass! -Original Message- From: Fleury, Bill [SMTP:bi...@artesyncp.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 6:18 PM To: 'rgeorger...@carrieraccess.com' Cc: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject:EMI from heatsinks Richard, I have three different articles about this subject. I think I found them on CDs from recent IEEE EMC Symposiums but I don't remember which ones or even if they were all on the same CD. I saved the files so I can e-mail them to you if you wish; as I don't think the files are that big. Regards, Bill Fleury ***Artesyn Communication Products, LLC** Bill Fleury Email: bi...@artesyncp.com Compliance Engineer Phone: 608-826-8375 8310 Excelsior DriveFax: 608-831-8844 Madison, WI 53717 Friends are those people who know the words to the song in your heart and sing them back to you when you have forgotten the words. (unattributed) *** Visit us at www.artesyn.com/cp ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Designing for low power conducted and radiated immunity - Thanx
Hi group, Thank you everyone for your great responses on the subject. Sorry I couldn't acknowledge your postings earlier than this and sorry I haven't acknowledged your postings individually. Had to go away somewhere - at short notice. Only just returned. I believe the gist of your responses was that it is a bit of a tall order to try and get a filter that will let 25kHz signals through and reject RF at 150kHz. To this end, I am thinking I may have to design a separate filter circuit for the output while keeping my original filter strategies on the DC lines. Any fundamental flaws in this reasoning? Gert and others raise a few points I would like to comment/pursue/query etc. Note that I have to assume screened cable is not an option initially and further that the output it is a PWM square wave with a maximum fundamental frequency of 25kHz and not 25kbit.. 2/ It has not been proved that the sensor actually degrades when exposed to the signals. My fault. I didn't supply you with enough information. I have the analog version of the sensor. Before addition of the pi-filters it was very susceptible. With only LC filtering, it was much better but still showed mild susceptibility during conducted immunity tests although the radiated immunity was vastly improved. With PI filters, it was immune over the full test spectrum 150k-1G. 3/ A CM coil may be applied with a asym signal if certain conditions are met (esp. grounding ) I have had bad experiences with trying to use CM chokes on asym. lines, but you make a point about grounding, so maybe worth another look? 5/ standard EMI filters of the pi-type will probably do the job. I recommend using off the shelve parts available easily. I have heard conflicting reports on these devices. I have heard from certain 'well-informed' sources that the SMT PI-filters which one can get from the big manufacturers do not work quite as well as filters made from discrete SM devices. Any experiences worth sharing - anyone? Is it all about 'horses for courses' i.e. the right filters for the job. 7/ The value of reasonable impedance does not need to be that high 300- 500 Ohms is sufficient. Don't over do. That is a good point. I work to a minimum of 300 Ohms - and where I have to squeeze every last bit of the spectrum into the useable range on a ferrite, will accept slightly lower (usually means using larger caps-to-case to maintain the impedance ratio). Thank you again for the wonderful responses. - Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Chris Chileshe Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:31 AM To: 'emc-pstc' Subject: Designing for low power conducted and radiated immunity Dear all, On the evidence of the quality of responses I have seen on more difficult queries, I think this should be fairly straightforward for all you RF engineers out there. My product is a small 3-wire pressure sensor which sends out a digital bit stream encryption of the pressure measured. It's current draw is around 30mA max. The bit stream is around 25kHz, 5V TTL. The 3-wires are simply supply (5-10VDC), Output (5V logic) and Ground. I am trying to make the product pass conducted RF immunity tests to EN 61000-4-6 (150kHz - 80Mhz) at 10V and radiated immunity tests to EN 61000-4-3 (80Mhz - 1Ghz) at 30V/m. There is an intrinsic safety limit on the overall capacitance I can use in the product. My general thoughts are to use a PI-filter on each of the 3 lines with the vertical section of the filter being ceramic capacitors to the metal case enclosure. A limit of about 10nF exists (for other reasons) on these capacitors. The horizontal section of the PI will be made up of a series connection of a ferrite (for high frequency suppression) and an inductor for the lower frequencies where the ferrite is transparent - in that order. My problems (sorry .. challenges) are as follows: 1 - I need to let a bit stream through at 25kHz, but reject RF at 150kHz without a common mode choke (output is not differential). Is this a tall order? 2 - The inductors that give me a reasonable value of impedance at these sub 1Mhz frequencies tend to be largish and have Self Resonant Freqs. in the test spectrum albeit some of them (SRFs) are in the radiated immunity band where I expect the ferrite to be in charge of attenuation. Is this likely to cause me problems? 3 - Can I find a single ferrite that will cover the entire RF test spectrum of EN 61000-6-2 ( 150kHz - 1Ghz) or is it generally accepted that even the so called 'wideband' ferrites (SMT 0603/0805 max) are good down to about 5MHz but no lower? Any relevant comments welcome. Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet
RE: Korea and China - Thanks
Patrick writes .. Fortunately for me this issue went away fast as it came up and I was told I don't need to pursue this any further for now. I am afraid this realisation comes too late! The group has already sent its responses. I don't see that you have much of a choice now but to *proceed* with the Korean and Chinese approvals regardless! You might want to keep a box of paracetamols handy for the headaches though. Best regards -Original Message- From: pfitzgib...@attbi.com [SMTP:pfitzgib...@attbi.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:05 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Korea and China - Thanks Hello everyone. I want to thank everybody who sent me information on the list and privately. Fortunately for me this issue went away fast as it came up and I was told I don't need to pursue this any further for now. It looked like I was going to have big headaches - what ever would we do without marketing :-). Thanks again for everyone's help. This is truly a rich forum with a lot of expertise. Patrick --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Designing for low power conducted and radiated immunity
Dear all, On the evidence of the quality of responses I have seen on more difficult queries, I think this should be fairly straightforward for all you RF engineers out there. My product is a small 3-wire pressure sensor which sends out a digital bit stream encryption of the pressure measured. It's current draw is around 30mA max. The bit stream is around 25kHz, 5V TTL. The 3-wires are simply supply (5-10VDC), Output (5V logic) and Ground. I am trying to make the product pass conducted RF immunity tests to EN 61000-4-6 (150kHz - 80Mhz) at 10V and radiated immunity tests to EN 61000-4-3 (80Mhz - 1Ghz) at 30V/m. There is an intrinsic safety limit on the overall capacitance I can use in the product. My general thoughts are to use a PI-filter on each of the 3 lines with the vertical section of the filter being ceramic capacitors to the metal case enclosure. A limit of about 10nF exists (for other reasons) on these capacitors. The horizontal section of the PI will be made up of a series connection of a ferrite (for high frequency suppression) and an inductor for the lower frequencies where the ferrite is transparent - in that order. My problems (sorry .. challenges) are as follows: 1 - I need to let a bit stream through at 25kHz, but reject RF at 150kHz without a common mode choke (output is not differential). Is this a tall order? 2 - The inductors that give me a reasonable value of impedance at these sub 1Mhz frequencies tend to be largish and have Self Resonant Freqs. in the test spectrum albeit some of them (SRFs) are in the radiated immunity band where I expect the ferrite to be in charge of attenuation. Is this likely to cause me problems? 3 - Can I find a single ferrite that will cover the entire RF test spectrum of EN 61000-6-2 ( 150kHz - 1Ghz) or is it generally accepted that even the so called 'wideband' ferrites (SMT 0603/0805 max) are good down to about 5MHz but no lower? Any relevant comments welcome. Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Required: Ability to WHAT?
Oh I don't know. Maybe the ad. proceeded to read ... Your job will entail constant telephoning of the above institutes and ordering pizza, with extra mozzarella and pepperoni. You will be occasionally required to issue bomb threats when any of the above organisations convenes for meetings or social events. Submission of computer viruses by e-mail to mainframes holding existing Bellcore, ANSI, IEEE, NEMA and JIC standards will be required to be accidental and must carry a disclaimer, and issued only from hotmail accounts from home based computers. Remuneration will be commensurate with agitation of said organisations, and where frustration leads to suicide, assisted or otherwise, a bonus claim may be made within 30 days of the event. Benefits include a telephone with caller-id suppression, and various nasal grips for vocal disguises. -Original Message- From: Cortland Richmond [SMTP:72146@compuserve.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 6:07 PM To: ieee pstc list Subject:Required: Ability to WHAT? I swear this is true. From job requirements for a job, on monster.com: .Ability to research and interrupt Bellcore, ANSI, IEEE, NEMA, and JIC standards as applies to telecommunication and electrical equipment required. Cortland Richmond --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Conductive Conformal Coatings for reducing PCB Emissions
Thank you for the clarification Charles. Mat, that's a technology that seems to have just passed me by! I look forward to the comments on this. Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Charles Grasso [SMTP:chasgra...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:24 PM To: chris.chile...@ultronics.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:RE: Conductive Conformal Coatings for reducing PCB Emissions Actually Chris there was a product that provided for a solder mask then had a conductive film ontop of that. The manufacturers could also tie this outer skin to the grounds on the printed circuit boord finally making the Faraday cage !! Papers I have read on this showed an excellent reduction in emissions (20dB) - neglecting the effects of the ICs I know that AMP used to market this but it did not seem to achieve markey acceptance. Charles Grasso From: Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com Reply-To: Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Conductive Conformal Coatings for reducing PCB Emissions Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:21:55 +0100 Mat, Can we assume you mean conductive spray coatings for plastic caseworks? Wouldn't a conductive conformal coating would short out all the components on the PCB? Or is a two-pass technology with the ordinary insulating coating over the components and a conductive layer on the outside? Awaiting your clarification. - Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Aschenberg, Mat [SMTP:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 3:36 PM To:emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Conductive Conformal Coatings for reducing PCB Emissions Hi All, A while back there was a push to use conductive conformal coatings for PCB emissions. Does anyone know if the technology still exists and if so who makes it?? Thanks --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list _ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http
RE: ESAs certification to 95/54/EC
More info - very good info I think - at http://www.rfi-wireless.com/pages/press/articles/ART014.htm Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Fang Han [SMTP:f...@qualcomm.com] Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 6:45 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:ESAs certification to 95/54/EC Hi Colleagues, It looks like all products for vehicle application, even they have been certified to EMC Directive or RTTE Directive, must be certified to 95/54/EC (vehicle EMC directive) before Oct 1, 2002. It seems to me that the certification route for vehicle EMC directive is different with EMC directive or RTTE directive certification. I am looking for an accredited lab/body that is authorized to certify ESAs products to 95/54/EC. I wonder if all these labs/bodies are located in Europe or there are some in USA. I understand that these labs/bodies should be authorized by the Ministry of Transportation of a EU member state. A certification done by such a lab will be accepted by all other EU member states. I appreciate it very much if someone familiar with this can shed some light. Thanks a lot, Fang This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk File: ATT5.htm This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: case of units
Spot on Tom! I have always stuck with lower case k - even when entering values in a database which is all in upper case! Of course, this scientific correctness lasts only a few days before someone spots my wonderful room temperature components, dips them in liquid nitrogen and the next thing I know they are all temperatures in Kelvin (10K)!! I will admit though, to not putting any space between the number and the unit, but I remember the look my physics teacher used to give us if someone had the misfortune to call the unit degrees Kelvin instead of plain Kelvin. For your information http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/ has it all. Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: T.Sato [SMTP:vef00...@nifty.ne.jp] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:39 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: case of units On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:17:18 -0700, Robert Macy m...@california.com wrote: Still use KHz For me it's a logical carrier over from small letter = small value capital letter = large value SI units are originally described in The International System of Units (strictly, in French) from BIPM, and it states kilo is k, not K. Although they are very rarely used these days, h (hecto = 10^2) and da (deca = 10^1) are written in small letters, too. Regards, Tom -- Tomonori Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp URL: http://member.nifty.ne.jp/tsato/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Thermal Testing
I have found the Pico data logger (with type K thermocouples) ideal for my requirements. It connects between about 8 thermocouples ( I use type K) and a PC ( RS232 ). http://www.picotech.com/thermocouple.html Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd -Original Message- From: richwo...@tycoint.com [SMTP:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:14 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Thermal Testing Do any of you monitor and record component temperatures during safety testing using PCs and data capture I/O cards? If so, what hardware and software to you use? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: A very nice game
Bill, Do we know which virus it was? Regards -Original Message- From: Bill Ellingford [SMTP:bill.ellingf...@motion-media.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 12:37 PM To: 'jmw'; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:RE: A very nice game Importance: High URGENT Please be aware that the above E-mail to the EMC group contained a virus. Fortunately our system removed it from the message. Bill Ellingford -Original Message- From: jmw [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: 24 April 2002 22:59 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: A very nice game -- Virus Warning Message (on gemini2) setup.exe is removed from here because it contains a virus. - * --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Output short circuit testing
Hi Group, In a previous life when I developed frequency converters, we used to perform short circuit tests to UL508C. I am developing automotive ESA's which may find use in non-automotive applications ( Mains - DC power source ). Is output short circuit testing covered by some generic standard, safety or otherwise that one can use as a guideline for test setups, parameters and performance criteria? Thanx in advance. - Chris Chileshe This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Vehicle EMC and Safety standards
Hi Alex, The EMC standards governing vehicle electrical sub-assemblies (ESAs) are as follows: 1 - Radiated emissions - 95/54/EC (automotive directive) and CISPR 25 2 - Conducted emissions - CISPR 25 ( omitted by directive ) 3 - ESD is governed by ISO 10605. The test levels are 15kV air discharge for ESAs that can only be accessed from inside the vehicle and 25kV for ESAs that can be accessed from outside the vehicle (e.g. through open window). Contact discharge is 8kV for points accessible during normal operation. 4 - Fast transients and Bursts are replaced by ISO 7637/SAE J1113/11 in the form of test pulse 3a and Test pulse 3b 5 - Surge immunity is replaced by the automotive load dump, ISO 7637 Test pulse 5. This is the most destructive of the transients. 6 - Transient immunity is completed by the other test pulses in ISO 7637 (test pulse 1,2, 6) Test pulse 4 simulates the supply transient during cranking. You may want to look closely at the behaviour of your machines during this phase as access to memory can often result in corruption of data. Additional requirements may exist like twice the supply voltage for a jump start on a 12V battery. Note that the transient test levels specified for 12V and 24V vehicles are different and governed by ISO 7637-1 and ISO 7637-2 respectively. 7 - Radiated immunity - ISO 11452. Minimum test level is 25V/m (SAR) to meet requirements of the directive, but most vehicle manufacturers might ask for higher test levels like 50V/m and even 100 - 200V/m for safety critical ESAs. Frequency range is nominally 150kHz - 1GHz but it is common practice and vehicle manufacturers do tend to insist on tests starting at 10kHz. The Bulk current Injection test is also useful verification that you have left no stone unturned. It is described in detail in ISO 11452 Part 4 Depending on where your terminals will be fitted, the operating temperature range may change from the commercial, especially the lower limit which may have to shift from 0 to -40?C but I imagine you have accounted for this already and besides, financial transactions may be rather low on the list of priorities for a driver entering a cab at -40, but I haven't been to Russia on a cold day so ignore me. Of course I jest. For general safety, you will have to refer to the SAE standards. I cannot say for sure if EN60950 is adequate. http://www.sae.org/technicalcommittees/index.htm Hope this helps Regards - Chris Chileshe - Principal Electronics Design Engineer - Ultronics Ltd - http://www.senstronics.com -Original Message- From: Alex McNeil [SMTP:alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 11:35 AM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Vehicle EMC and Safety standards Hi Group, Our financial transaction terminals are mostly used in the commercial area e.g. shops and offices, which use a separate AC/DC power supply block connected to the mains There is a requirement for these same products to be used in vehicles e.g. Taxis and Buses. These would use the power from the batteries possibly from the cigarette lighter holder (12Volts). I have obviously had to design in additional filter circuitry to account for this type of DC Supply source. My question is, will there be additional EMC and Safety requirements in Europe or North America (other than those already approved for use in commercial areas) for vehicle/mobile use? Already Approved to: EMC: EN55022 Class B, *EN55024, EN6100-3-2, EN61000-3-3, FCC Part 15, ICES-003 Safety: EN60950 (also UL/CSA) *The only additional test I can think of is for the EN55024 to include the DC Power Port tests (excluded before due to the terminal being supplied from an AC/DC power source). As usual I look forward to your invaluable replies. Kind Regards Alex McNeil Principal Engineer Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 Fax: +44 (0)131 479 8321 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com --- This message is from th
RE: Resistors pulse loading capabilities
Hi Massimo, Try http://www.vtm.co.uk/. They had a good calculation method in the printed version of their catalog which does not seem to be available on the website ( I haven't looked very hard for it). It worked well for sizing in-rush limiting resistors. Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Massimo Polignano [SMTP:massimo.polign...@esaote.com] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:03 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Resistors pulse loading capabilities Does anybody out of there know what are the methods to evaluate resistors pulse loading capabilities (maximum peak pulse voltage without failing to open circuit)? Is there any standard models? This could be very useful to design the power supply circuit parts involved in a surge immunity test. Thanks in advance. m.p. - ESAOTE S.p.A. Massimo Polignano Research Product DevelopmentDesign Quality Control Mngr Via di Caciolle,15tel:+39.055.4229402 I- 50127 Florence fax:+39.055.4223305 e-mail: massimo.polign...@esaote.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: TEM Cells
Hi Kate, Not sure about practical, but ISO 11452 Part 3 describes the calculation method for the electric field inside a TEM cell. It uses the formula |E| = sqrt(P x Z) / d Where |E| is the absolute value of electric field measured in Volts/m P is the net power, in watts, to be understood as total forward power - total reflected power, Z is the characteristic impedance of the TEM cell in ohms ( typically 50 Ohms) and d is the separation in metres, between the floor and the septum of the TEM cell ( about half the height of the cell). Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: k.macl...@aprel.com [SMTP:k.macl...@aprel.com] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 8:57 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:TEM Cells Hi, Folks - We have noticed that not everybody is using the same formula for calculating E-field inside of a TEM cell. Does anyone out there have practical formulas (and/or any other useful information...) relating power to the E-field? Many thanks in advance, Cheers, Kate Kathy M. MacLean President, APREL Laboratories -EMC-RF Safety-Antenna Design/Test-SAR/MPE-SAR/Near-Field Tools-Acoustics-Wireless- 51 Spectrum Way, Nepean, Ontario K2R 1E6 (613) 820-2730 fax (613) 820-4161 cell (613) 791-3777 Web site: http://www.aprel.com - watch for our new web site coming soon! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: CE Marking - Prototypes
Concerning the matter of exploding products .. Probably worth adding that it is a mammoth and near-impossible task trying to restore your reputation if you have a product explode at an exhibition, and make no mistake, the competition will use it in their adverts! Customers tend to remember such events more vividly than those where your products have impressed. Indeed, at an exhibition I attended, I still cannot recall the name of an exhibitor (Japanese) who had very impressive robotic controls on display but I do not require much encouragement to recall the unfortunate exhibitor with an exploding product. I admit we all thought it was due to the competence - or lack thereof - of the Claudia Schaeffer lookalike (shame on us!) exhibiting the products but as we later got to find out in the magazine reporting the event, it was a flaw in the prototype (partly hand-built to meet the exhibition date deadline - uncropped pins violated a clearance dimension)! Be warned! - Regards - Chris (Own Opinions Only) -Original Message- From: Gregg Kervill [SMTP:gr...@test4safety.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:13 AM To: 'Chris Chileshe'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: CE Marking - Prototypes PLEASE consider this in the context of what is expected in the US, from the UK. When I have exhibited the exhibition package will specify something about NOT connecting any equipment that is not UL Listed. Failure to adhere to this clause usually promised summery expulsion. So why should we not expect any less commitment to exhibiting from the US into Europe I agree there is a lot of non-compliant (and sometimes potentially dangerous) equipment on show but that should make us more cautious. PLEASE DO NOT add on big filters without considering (AND MEASURING) the issue of Earth Leakage. Similarly - make sure that you know the earth leakage current for each item that in in your booth. Otherwise your extension lead may fail to meet OSHA or the local code requirements. As for 'exploding' products - I was lecturing each morning and afternoon at an exhibition in London (product safety) and at 11:45 and 4:45 each day 50 people would leave the lecture hall and 'hit' the exhibition. On the last Friday I visited a PSU supplier near the lecture hall and asked him about a (non-compliant) product label. The poor guy nearly exploded. Every morning and afternoon 50 people came to his booth to tell him why his labels were non-compliant! True story and maybe a useful one - check out the local competition and list their non-compliances - then explain (to visitors) the mistakes that you have avoided - making sure NOT to mentions names. Point - Aim and Fire! Best regards Gregg --Original Message- -From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org -[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Chris Chileshe -Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 4:11 AM -To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org -Subject: RE: CE Marking - Prototypes - - - -Regarding products for demo's and exhibitions, Enci writes .. - - Therefore the application of CE Marking or lack thereof is -meaningless. - -You would think so wouldn't you. A small problem arises in -that if you have -competitors with a CE marked product, they will make it a -point to display -this and this means potential customers will be signing deals -with them -and not you because they have better and more reliable information on -delivery dates. If you have no competitors, then you are OK. - -CE marked or not, make sure that the product is safe and -further, that it -will not go bang when connected to a supply with everybody else's non -compliant stuff. It might be an idea to take a large filter if -one is affordable. - -There is nothing quite as memorable as a product that explodes at an -exhibition. In fact, it makes the exhibition worth attending -the next time, -and considering it has been the talk of the industry since the -last time, you -will get an unusually large crowd, and a quick check through their -business cards will reveal they are competitors and not customers -if the former exist! - -Having said this much, I feel it important that I state that -these experiences -were not personal to me or my current or previous employers. -That's the -truth. - -Best regards - -- Chris - - --Original Message- -From: Enci [SMTP:e...@cinepower.com] -Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 12:18 PM -To:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org -Subject: RE: CE Marking - Protoypes - - - - -Well, I found the guide I was looking for, and the key issue is the -placing on the market or taking into service. The guide -clearly states -demonstrating at an exhibition is not considered to be placing on the -market. It also says a notice is required, as descibed below. -Therefore the -application of CE Marking or lack thereof is meaningless. - -Enci - - -Prototype, equipments for demostration aren't covered by the -EMC or RTTE -directive. -This is article
Generic emissions - EN 61000-6-3
Hi Group, I have just been touring the BSI website and discovered that the generic emissions standard EN 50081-1 for residential, commercial and light industrial, although current, has been superceded by EN 61000-6-3. If anyone has got a copy of this standard already, could they kindly advise - without resorting to replicating the entire standard on this forum!! - if there are major differences to be expected which would justify switching to this standard to avoid retesting in future - or is it a question of the emissions spectra now required for frequencies beyond 1GHz? Have the limits prescribed by EN50081-1 for the range 150kHz - 30Mhz - 1GHz stayed the same? Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - http://www.senstronics.com -Original Message- From: Chris Chileshe [SMTP:chris.chile...@ultronics.co.uk] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 9:11 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: CE Marking - Prototypes Regarding products for demo's and exhibitions, Enci writes .. Therefore the application of CE Marking or lack thereof is meaningless. You would think so wouldn't you. A small problem arises in that if you have competitors with a CE marked product, they will make it a point to display this and this means potential customers will be signing deals with them and not you because they have better and more reliable information on delivery dates. If you have no competitors, then you are OK. CE marked or not, make sure that the product is safe and further, that it will not go bang when connected to a supply with everybody else's non compliant stuff. It might be an idea to take a large filter if one is affordable. There is nothing quite as memorable as a product that explodes at an exhibition. In fact, it makes the exhibition worth attending the next time, and considering it has been the talk of the industry since the last time, you will get an unusually large crowd, and a quick check through their business cards will reveal they are competitors and not customers if the former exist! Having said this much, I feel it important that I state that these experiences were not personal to me or my current or previous employers. That's the truth. Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Enci [SMTP:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 12:18 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: CE Marking - Protoypes Well, I found the guide I was looking for, and the key issue is the placing on the market or taking into service. The guide clearly states demonstrating at an exhibition is not considered to be placing on the market. It also says a notice is required, as descibed below. Therefore the application of CE Marking or lack thereof is meaningless. Enci Prototype, equipments for demostration aren't covered by the EMC or RTTE directive. This is article 8.2 of RTTE a similar article exist in the EMC directive 2. At trade fairs, exhibitions, demonstrations, etc., Member States shall not create any obstacles to the display of apparatus which does not comply with this Directive, provided that a visible sign clearly indicates that such apparatus may not be marketed or put into service until it has been made to comply. Ciao Paolo --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web
RE: CE Marking - Prototypes
Regarding products for demo's and exhibitions, Enci writes .. Therefore the application of CE Marking or lack thereof is meaningless. You would think so wouldn't you. A small problem arises in that if you have competitors with a CE marked product, they will make it a point to display this and this means potential customers will be signing deals with them and not you because they have better and more reliable information on delivery dates. If you have no competitors, then you are OK. CE marked or not, make sure that the product is safe and further, that it will not go bang when connected to a supply with everybody else's non compliant stuff. It might be an idea to take a large filter if one is affordable. There is nothing quite as memorable as a product that explodes at an exhibition. In fact, it makes the exhibition worth attending the next time, and considering it has been the talk of the industry since the last time, you will get an unusually large crowd, and a quick check through their business cards will reveal they are competitors and not customers if the former exist! Having said this much, I feel it important that I state that these experiences were not personal to me or my current or previous employers. That's the truth. Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Enci [SMTP:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 12:18 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: CE Marking - Protoypes Well, I found the guide I was looking for, and the key issue is the placing on the market or taking into service. The guide clearly states demonstrating at an exhibition is not considered to be placing on the market. It also says a notice is required, as descibed below. Therefore the application of CE Marking or lack thereof is meaningless. Enci Prototype, equipments for demostration aren't covered by the EMC or RTTE directive. This is article 8.2 of RTTE a similar article exist in the EMC directive 2. At trade fairs, exhibitions, demonstrations, etc., Member States shall not create any obstacles to the display of apparatus which does not comply with this Directive, provided that a visible sign clearly indicates that such apparatus may not be marketed or put into service until it has been made to comply. Ciao Paolo --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EN 61000-3-3 - Now Andrew's waveforms
Andrew, What on earth is that? You wouldn't happen to have the harmonic spectra for these waveforms would you? I believe the last time I saw a mains voltage fundamental struggle so hard to make an impression was during my research days at Uni when I had an erroneous switching pattern in an EPROM controlling the triggering of power semiconductors in an ASVC (Advanced Static VAR compensator)! And even that was symmetrical in the positive and negative half cycles! Fancy having a zero crossing detector on that supply! Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Andrew Carson [SMTP:acar...@uk.xyratex.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:06 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: EN 61000-3-3 compliant heater controller Time for some sarcasm, Harmonics is a total imaginary situations, It never causes real problems and I never recorded two attached distorted wave forms ! This issues had nothing to do with neutral currents, it was that distorted wave form causing the problem Suppose we could have a little competition, who's seen the worst level of harmonic distortion, I think number 2 will take some beating. My two pennies worth on a wet wednesday afternoon. Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk File: harm2.jpgFile: harm1.jpg This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Zero Crossing Question
I agree with Scott's take on this, and I can vouch for the experiences others have cited where a seemingly suitable alternative has in reality proved otherwise. I have seen this with both semiconductors (opto isolators) and passives (VSD DC link capacitors and ferrites). If the datasheets are *identical*, then I say use the parts that work and put the question to On semi why their part behaves differently. Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Scott Lacey [SMTP:sco...@world.std.com] Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 4:47 PM To: Bouse, John Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: Zero Crossing Question Zero Crossing QuestionJohn, I think you already have the answer to the problem. You stated that Harris or Intersil IC's work properly regardless of the mains polarity. Some years back I had an issue where another manufacturer's replacement was substituted for a Sprague ULN2003 Darlington Array that I had specified in a design. I was using the ULN2003 to buffer a reset pulse distributed in a system. The other brand was not capable of switching quickly enough in this application. Replacing the ICs with the specified part solved the problem. I would not waste valuable engineering time resolving an issue that only occurs with one vendor's part. Just one man's opinion, Scott Lacey Simplicate, don't complicate! -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Bouse, John Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 9:20 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Zero Crossing Question Hi Group, Our manufacturing personnel encountered a strange problem: when the mains plug used on a 230V/50Hz equipment that has an internal zero crossing reference integrated circuit (specifically, a CA3059) is reversed (this can occur in countries such as Germany, Italy, France and Switzerland), the zero crossing pulses appear with a 20 millisecond spacing, rather than the expected 10 millisecond spacing. Harris or Intersil IC's work properly regardless of the mains polarity. ON Semiconductor IC's appear to be polarity sensitive. They will produce the proper number of pulses with only one mains polarity. The incorrect spacing of these zero crossing pulses affects the normal operation of the equipment. Has anyone encountered and, hopefully, solved this problem? Regards, John Bouse PKI This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk File: ATT2.htm This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Switch Inrush Ratings - do google!
There is a lot to be said for this approach. Unfortunately, I had just sent out an e-mail on EN 61000-4-6 and EN 50141 when I started following the thread on Switch Inrush Ratings. I eventually came to the postings making reference to the John Woodgate approach and realised I hadn't done all I could before posting the query. Realising I hadn't googled, I made a hasty attempt to correct this, frantically wiping the sweat off my brow as I started my browser ( air conditioners are of limited effectiveness in times like these - mercifully the anti-perspirant isn't!). I got the distinct feeling of one walking clear across the street to one's car only to realise the draft around one's legs is not a necessary evil and could have been easily prevented had one bothered to check that one had one's pants on! I promptly googled, and realised I should have googled .. no .. that I should have been googling all this time. Sigh! I guess all I can do now is sit and wait for the replies confirming my take on the two standards was indeed correct. Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [SMTP:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:17 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: Switch Inrush Ratings I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200201102027.maa26...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'Switch Inrush Ratings', on Thu, 10 Jan 2002: Taking John Woodgate's usual response to such an inquiry, I did a Google search on inrush. I don't think I use that response any more often than others, But it's good advice. Also, if you Googled before asking here, please say so. Then when someone says 'Google!', you won't need to say (as some do in other, less polite fora), ' Do you think I'm a BF? I tried that already!'. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
EN 50141 and EN 61000-4-6
Hi group, I am testing to the generic immunity standard EN 61000-6-2 which refers to EN 61000-4-6 for immunity to conducted disturbances induced by radio-frequency fields. A query has arisen that EN 50141 is missing from my list of tests. Is my understanding correct that these two standards are essentially the same? I do not have a copy of either and currently awaiting delivery of EN 61000-4-6 which I have recently purchased. Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: LISN for automotive directive
I would like to see if the one per CISPR 25 suits for this purpose or not. I am not sure that 95/54/EC requires you to perform conducted emissions, but if you do, the standard will be CISPR-25, so the short answer is YES. Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: KC CHAN [PDD] [SMTP:kcc...@hkpc.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:48 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:LISN for automotive directive Hi all I am looking for a LISN for the automobile conducted emission testing under the automotive directive 95/54, one of the suppliers has suggested the one per CISPR 25. Since there is no clear construction in the automotive directive, I would like to see if the one per CISPR 25 suits for this purpose or not. Thank you KC Chan --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive antivirus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: www.star.net.uk This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive antivirus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Components to suppress fast transient / bursts
Hi Amund, A properly sized varistor ( sometimes with capacitor in parallel) is quite effective. You will find IEC 1000-4-4 mentioned in some varistor datasheets. Just mind that you have the energy rating correctly specified and for really high speed response, opt for surface mount. The varistors have a parameter called the clamping voltage and you need to be careful that all your protected front end is rated to at least that voltage. Varistor sources include ( I think) EPCOS, Keko-Varicon, Murata, Littelfuse, TDK components, Panasonic etc. You can opt for tranzorbs from the likes of General Semi (Vishay), ST Microelectronics etc for tighter clamping voltages but these are semiconductor types and tend to 'break' when subjected to high energy transients like the surge (EN 610004-5) or automotive load dumps (ISO 7637-1, 2 Test pulse 5). Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: am...@westin-emission.no [SMTP:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:51 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Components to suppress fast transient / bursts Hi all, I do not have any experience with components which could suppress a 2kV (5ns/50ns) electrical fast transient (Burst). Anybody in the group who could come up with some suggestions ? Best regards Amund Westin,Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: John Woodgate Departure
Dear all, I guess I should have known better than to open a can of worms and then have the audacity to take a day off!! I returned today ( Tuesday) to find my in-folder overflowing with opinions on this matter. It is quite obvious that John's presence is treasured by quite a large percentage of the list. However, there has been noticeable shift in the tone of the messages addressing the issue in that there is some degree of casting the administrator as the villain of the peace here (contrary to the Hollywood norm which always has the English guy as the villain!). This is neither right nor fair (I am not talking about Hollywood anymore although it wouldn't do them any harm to take notes!!). It was certainly not the intention of my original posting and my appeal was to both John and the list admin. My apologies to the list administrator for this misunderstanding and unfortunate change in ethos. I think it best we leave the matter to John and the administrator to resolve. To this end, Chris Maxwell writes .. If there is any peacemaking to be done here, I suggest that John and the admin in question work it out off-line. Agreed. Chris adds... I suggest that if a third party get involved, that it also be off-line. (I suggest Tania. She'll straighten them out :-)) So ... what are you saying Chris .. Kofi Annan not good enough for you? But seriously, let us not point fingers and leave the gentlemen to work it out. The most we can do is appeal to John to reconsider HIS decision. Best regards everyone. - Chris -- Don't you just love the swooshing sound deadlines make as they go flying past! _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Conducted emissions - frequencies lower than 150kHz
Is Minks the plural for 'Mink' or is it always Mink in both singular and plural? Have I been misinformed? Regards - Chris _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: My departure
Any possibility of reconsidering your decision John? I think it would be a real shame to lose John's presence on the list. While it would obviously be possible for us to contact him directly ( and I for one have done so in the past), I have always found it educational to read John's responses to others' queries, and then related it all to my own products. True, there have been times when some of John's responses have been somewhat 'direct' and possibly frightening for the uninitiated newcomer, but a week on the list and you learn to expect responses like: Surely you don't expect us to replicate the entire scope of EN abc on this forum to the less specific queries like: Can someone tell me what EN abc covers but as with all lists it is just a matter of time before you pick up on the different personalities, and learn to expect a certain 'tone' from contributions by the likes of John, The many Chris's, Ken, Bob, Tania, Rich, Ed, Kyle, Amund to mention but a few. One also knows when to expect responses on IT, Audio, Power, Automotive, Marine, Aerospace etc. I would therefore like to appeal to John and the administrator - and indeed to Kofi Annan should he find time in his otherwise busy schedule, to try and work this out for the sake of all of us. Thank you. - Chris -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [SMTP:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 9:07 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:My departure As a result of representations from one of the administrators, which I consider totally unjustified, I am leaving the group. I regret having to break contact with those that responded favourably to my input. You are free to e-mail me if you wish. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Components connected to PE
Hi Group, I have one of those scenarios where EMC meets product safety. For the purpose of RFI, I have a requirement to connect RF bypass capacitors from the input lines of a Low voltage DC (30V max, SELV) piece of equipment to PE. As I recall when I worked in ac voltage converters, we used to connect Y-rated capacitors between phase and PE. Is it still a requirement that I need a Y-rated capacitor for this LV product or can I get away with a much smaller capacitor with a varistor in parallel? All comments welcome. I trust the wording is clear but please let me know if a sketch in word is required. Thanx in advance. Regards - Chris _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Marine Equipment
Bob, You will find a very useful guide on applying the directives at the site http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/ It has links to both the EMC directive and the Marine equipment directive and also a FAQ. My understanding is that equipment specifically covered by the Marine equipment directive is exempt from the EMC directive even if it falls under the EMC directive i.e. when equipment falls under both Marine and EMC directive, Marine equipment directive has precedence. Thus, exemption requires that the equipment is specifically included in the scope of the marine equipment directive, otherwise it becomes subject to the EMC directive. If the lighting system you mention is covered by the scope of the Marine equipment Directive 96/98/EC, then that is the one you want to apply, otherwise, EMC Directive 89/336/EEC ( I think there is amendment to this one) is the one. Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: rehel...@mmm.com [SMTP:rehel...@mmm.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 3:01 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Marine Equipment It is my understanding that marine equipment is exempt from the EMC Directive and from FCC regulations. Can anyone tell me what standards would cover a battery operated lighting system running at 100 VAC, 1500 Hz for both Europe and the U.S.? Thanks, Bob Heller 3M Product Safety, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Component ESD Immunity Testing
Ravinder, I can attest to the 2kV ESD immunity of ICs because I have done such tests myself. I am now in the process of trying to raise the ESD immunity level to 4kV on one particular pin. Have you - or anyone else on this group - had any experience working with small surface mount varistors (EIA 0603 or 0805 size) specifically for ESD protection. I have only ever worked with large disc varistors primarily for surge protection (EN61000-4-5) and therefore a little sceptical about the effectiveness of an 0603 device at 4kV although I imagine they should be able to deal with ESD (EN 61000-4-2). Any advice? Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Ravinder Ajmani [SMTP:ajm...@us.ibm.com] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:45 PM To: EMC-PSTC Subject:Re: Component ESD Immunity Testing I have been asked on several occasions to test some particular IC on the card, whenever there have been instances of IC failures during product manufacturing/testing. Most ICs are built to withstand an ESD event of 2 kV, and I have found this to be true in my tests. If IC happens to be OK then I try to improve the card design to reduce/eliminate the product failures. Regards, Ravinder PCB Development and Design Department IBM Corporation Email: ajm...@us.ibm.com *** Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. . Mark Twain plaw...@west.net (Patrick Lawler) To: EMC-PSTC emc-p...@ieee.org Sent by: cc: owner-emc-pstc@majordom Subject: Re: Component ESD Immunity Testing o.ieee.org 10/01/2001 08:27 AM Please respond to plawler We have an engineer who did ESD testing once on the pins of ICs buried in a power supply assembly. The unit passed, and he thought it was a great way to show product robustness. However, when I asked him if he would redesign power supplies that failed his special test, he replied he wouldn't. Would _you_ redesign your system if it failed? Patrick Lawler plaw...@west.net On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:02:10 -0600 , Aschenberg, Mat matt.aschenb...@echostar.com wrote: Since all of you have your ESD hats on. Are there standards for testing of components on a pwb? There is some concern here that we should be testing individual components on the pwb. Thanks for your help. Mat Aschenberg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy
RE: Steel Balls vs. Chickens
Out of the curiosity, do they freeze the chickens complete with feathers or do they get them ready dressed from Wall Mart? - Chris _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CE Mark and GOST
Hi John, I am not familiar with GOST and I don't doubt there are people on this forum better informed to address your query. What I do know is that CE is not required outside the scope of the EU membership. At present, AFAIK, the EU member states are: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and UK. My information may be a little outdated. A country outside the scope of the EU may choose to take advantage of the product quality inherent in the process that leads to the mark by insisting on CE-marked imports, but really, the mark only has legal implications within the EU. I am not sure about the Russian market, and perhaps some of our Russian based compliance engineers may help here. Alternatively, the persons importing the product would be able to advise. Regards - Chris Chileshe -Original Message- From: Bouse, John [SMTP:john.bo...@perkinelmer.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:23 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:CE Mark and GOST Hello Group, Is the CE Mark sufficient to allow products (laboratory instruments, for example) to be sold/shipped into the Russian Federation, or is the GOST mark also required? Regards, John Bouse PKI Shelton, CT USA === -Original Message- From: Chris Chileshe [mailto:chris.chile...@ultronics.co.uk] Sent: September 13, 2001 12:38 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: CE Mark Hi Ralph, The CE mark is not exclusive to EMC. Indeed, it refers to compliance with all directives relevant to the product, so a teddy bear will be CE marked if it meets the requirements of the toy directive and all relevant safety directives. Pressure vessels will have to meet the requirements of the pressure directive and so on, and if any product crosses boundaries, it has to meet all the applicable directives. However, the CE mark is a declaration of conformity and you can self certify. This means I can disappear into my garage for a few weeks and emerge with a CE marked product - and it would be perfectly legal - as long as the declaration is true i.e. I have done what needs to be done to prove compliance, and one way to do this would be to test to applicable harmonised standards. Validity of self certification may change in due course but at the moment, that is how it is. I like Chris Maxwell's spin on the meaning of CE, and it would be true if every firm made a distinction between the compliance engineer and the designer. In all the companies I have worked for - we do it all i.e. the designer designs to spec, takes the product through type approval tests, then through precompliance and then through full compliance. So the electronics designers are responsible for meeting all the applicable directives (EMC, electrical safety) and functional type approval and they do so by product proving and EMC testing the product themselves - to the applicable standard. They are also responsible for the technical documentation for the electrical aspects of the product. The mechanical engineers and hydraulics engineers do likewise and when it's all done, the fall guy (engineering director) puts his signature on the declaration of conformity. What this means is that if the declaration should subsequently be proven false, he is the one who goes to the gallows. Wait a minute! I used to think everyone worked that way, but I get the feeling I may be doing too much! That does it! I am off to see the payroll people soon after sending this e-mail and hopefully will emerge with a CE marked cheque - or CE marked letter of dismissal!! You can never be too sure with these accounts people. Regards y'all - Chris Chileshe -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [SMTP:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:57 PM To: Chris Chileshe; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: CE Mark I think its fair to state that CE also equates to designed in level of immunity to electromagnetic interference, i.e. reduced sensitivity or susceptibility. In my view , a highly desireable because it prevents a lot of what's out there from coming in and conversely a lot of what's inside from coming out. It's a compromise but better than nothing. Ralph cameron EMC Consulting and Suppression of Consumer Electronics (after sale) snip _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc
RE: CE Mark
Hi Ralph, The CE mark is not exclusive to EMC. Indeed, it refers to compliance with all directives relevant to the product, so a teddy bear will be CE marked if it meets the requirements of the toy directive and all relevant safety directives. Pressure vessels will have to meet the requirements of the pressure directive and so on, and if any product crosses boundaries, it has to meet all the applicable directives. However, the CE mark is a declaration of conformity and you can self certify. This means I can disappear into my garage for a few weeks and emerge with a CE marked product - and it would be perfectly legal - as long as the declaration is true i.e. I have done what needs to be done to prove compliance, and one way to do this would be to test to applicable harmonised standards. Validity of self certification may change in due course but at the moment, that is how it is. I like Chris Maxwell's spin on the meaning of CE, and it would be true if every firm made a distinction between the compliance engineer and the designer. In all the companies I have worked for - we do it all i.e. the designer designs to spec, takes the product through type approval tests, then through precompliance and then through full compliance. So the electronics designers are responsible for meeting all the applicable directives (EMC, electrical safety) and functional type approval and they do so by product proving and EMC testing the product themselves - to the applicable standard. They are also responsible for the technical documentation for the electrical aspects of the product. The mechanical engineers and hydraulics engineers do likewise and when it's all done, the fall guy (engineering director) puts his signature on the declaration of conformity. What this means is that if the declaration should subsequently be proven false, he is the one who goes to the gallows. Wait a minute! I used to think everyone worked that way, but I get the feeling I may be doing too much! That does it! I am off to see the payroll people soon after sending this e-mail and hopefully will emerge with a CE marked cheque - or CE marked letter of dismissal!! You can never be too sure with these accounts people. Regards y'all - Chris Chileshe -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [SMTP:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:57 PM To: Chris Chileshe; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: CE Mark I think its fair to state that CE also equates to designed in level of immunity to electromagnetic interference, i.e. reduced sensitivity or susceptibility. In my view , a highly desireable because it prevents a lot of what's out there from coming in and conversely a lot of what's inside from coming out. It's a compromise but better than nothing. Ralph cameron EMC Consulting and Suppression of Consumer Electronics (after sale) snip _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CE Mark
This understanding (appended e-mail below) is correct AFAIK. I also checked out the website http://www.conformance.co.uk and they seem to agree with the notion it doesn't really mean anything *any more*. Here is an excerpt from their site .. .. We quite often get asked what the 'CE' in the CE logo stands for. If anything it probably stands for Communitee Europeen being the French way of saying European Community. It could also represent Conformite Europeen. However, it is far from certain that whoever invented the mark (some bureaucrat in Brussels) had anything particular in mind other than to create a logo which would be universally recognised in the European Union, and given all the national prejudices about language in the different countries of the EU, even if the original inventor had something specific in mind, it was probably conveniently forgotten by the time it became 'official'. So, officially, it's just a logo and has no linguistic meaning. ... Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: wmccaffe...@npeurope.com [SMTP:wmccaffe...@npeurope.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:44 PM To: Jody Leber Cc: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Re: CE Mark Hi Jody According to sources within the European Commission the letters CE now have no meaning. Communitie European seems to have been assumed from the inception of the directives but now CE means CE. Slaint _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: ENV 50121-5
Chris Maxwell writes... However; I have been burned by buying standards that sounded like they would apply; but really don't. Just had a dose of that myself last week!! I agree that the scope should be in the public domain so we can verify relevance before committing to purchase. I for one really wouldn't mind spending a whole day (week even!) reading the various scopes if I know that the decisions I will make about which standards to purchase, will be correct. As things stand at the moment, I spend that week waiting for the wrong standard to arrive in the post! I have at times resorted to a trip to the local public library to check on the scope but even that has taken a whole day because I keep *asking* for the wrong standards based on what I thought would be the applicable standard. Finding the right standard really should be a lot more straightforward. Is there anything we can do about this? - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - http://www.ultronics.com -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [SMTP:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:31 PM To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: ENV 50121-5 Hi John, I agree with your view; which I understand to be. 1. Nobody can paraphrase an entire standard in a email without huge chances for error... and 2. A company should buy the standard if they plan on using it. This reminds me of a thorn in my side which I hope will get the attention of those that deal in standards. I know I have a reputation for being stumpish, so I'll keep it short. The thorn is... I believe that the at least the scope statement of any standard should be public information that can be accessed as part of the regulatory body websites (whether it's CENELEC, ACA whoever). There should also be no fear of people being whacked for copywrite violations because they share the scope statement from a standard. Sometimes, the title just isn't descriptive enough. We do purchase standards that we know will apply to our products. However; I have been burned by buying standards that sounded like they would apply; but really don't. I assume that a few others have had similar experiences; and that's why we see so many questions in the EMC-PSTC regarding standards applicability. Some companies do care about the cost of that $75 standard. (definitely not the opinions of my employer...) Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [SMTP:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:56 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ENV 50121-5 I read in !emc-pstc that Biggs, Daniel (IndSys, GEFanuc, NA) daniel.bi...@gefanuc.com wrote (in A9713061F01AD411B0F700D0B746CA6801 550...@vacho6misge.cho.ge.com) about 'ENV 50121-5', on Thu, 6 Sep 2001: I am looking for a short description of ENV 50121-5. What does it cover? Railway applications. Electromagnetic compatibility. Fixed installations. What tests does it specify? What limits does it specify for tests? What you are effectively asking for is the whole text of the standard. Not sensible, not possible. Pay your USD75 or so for it. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived
CE marking 'e' mark products
Hello Group, Most of my designs have been engineered for the 'e' mark i.e. vehicle automotive EMC. This means the front end is ISO 7637 (transients) compliant. I now have a requirement to extend the operating environment to any 12-30V DC power supply running off mains, in a bid to CE mark the product. I believe I need to perform ESD and RF emissions and immunity, but what about the Fast Transients and Surge tests? Is my product exempt because it does not actually connect to the mains supply, and if so, is there a requirement I can place on the user's power supply (apart from the usual tolerances) that in someway guarantees that any EFTs and Surge voltages are dealt with satisfactorily i.e. not coupled through? Would appreciate your advice. Best regards - Chris Chileshe http://www.ultronics.co.uk _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: ESD Testing
Richard wrote ... Do any of you perform ESD testing at or above 15 kV to improve product robustness? Yes. ISO TR 10605/SAE J1113. 25kV air discharge, 8kV contact What type of user environment Automotive What types of products What is the rational for testing above 15 kV Points accessible from *outside* the vehicle e.g. steering wheels. What test equipment is used above 15 kV Schaffner NSG432, EM TEST ESD-30C What test procedure is used above 15kV I've only tested upto 25kV. Same as for 15kV. Air discharges to body of product, to plane in vicinity of product and to wiring loom. What is the pass/fail criteria above 15 kV We use the same as for 15kV. We aim for ISO Class A (no malfunction) for devices accessible during operation. We opt for Class A @ 15kV, Class B @ 15kV for devices not normally accessible in operation but could become accessible during maintenance. Hope this helps. Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - http://www.ultronics.co.uk -Original Message- From: wo...@sensormatic.com [SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:56 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:ESD Testing Do any of you perform ESD testing at or above 15 kV to improve product robustness? I have the following questions. o What types of products o What type of user environment o What is the rational for testing above 15 kV o What test equipment is used above 15 kV o What test procedure is used above 15kV o What is the pass/fail criteria above 15 kV Thanks, Richard Woods --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
Kyle writes .. Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Ah! I believe one exists! For PCB's anyway. I did not believe it when I read about in an EMC magazine (Compliance journal I think), so I asked for a demo last month and true to his word, the man came in and showed me their new invention: the 'EMC Scanner'. I had him scan one of my PCB's and indeed it picked up all the frequencies I had picked up at the test house, but in addition, gave me a graphical picture where exactly (down to the IC!) the emissions were coming from! Check out http://www.etsi.co.uk Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [SMTP:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 2:08 PM To: 'Doug McKean'; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject:RE: TV nostalgia Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). A rig like this could add a pc for compliance recognition/cataloging and perhaps someday eliminate the need for OATS, TEM cells and other investigatinve methods. The system could also harass on a per sample basis in situ mfg. product. -kyle, KC0IQE -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: TV nostalgia snip Now, if we could just train ourselves to sniff out some of those pesky EMI problems ... - Doug McKean _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. File: ATT1.htm _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Clock Dithering - some more information
I found the report Jack refers to on the website, and I think it is well worth reading. Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd -Original Message- From: Jacob Schanker [SMTP:j.schan...@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:39 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:Clock Dithering - some more information I followed the recent discussion threads on this topic, but it is not in my main stream of interest. However, I just remembered an extensive report I had seen on the subject. The report is Investigation into possible effects resulting from dithered clock oscillators on EMC measurements and interference to radio transmission systems By David Lauder and James Moritz of the Univ. of Hertfordshire Regional Electronics Centre, dated 18 March 2000. It was prepared for the UK Radiocommunications Agency. Although I am looking at a paper copy, I am pretty sure that I originally downloaded it from the UK RA website, http://www.radio.gov.uk The report expresses concern about the effects of DCOs on digital TV and COFDM transmissions. Regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Automotive transients ISO 7637 Part 3
Hi group, I was browsing the ISO website and discovered a part 3 to ISO 7637. Does anyone know if there are new automotive test pulses not already covered by part 1 (12V vehicles) and part 2 (24V vehicles)? The brief on part 3 seems to address vehicles powered from 12 and/or 24V sources. Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
ISO TR 10605 test setup (ESD)
Hi group For those of you unfamiliar with ISO TR 10605, it is the ESD test standard for automotive electronics (8kV contact, 25kV air). I am trying to perform quick ESD tests on a product which has bottom entry proprietary cable. Picture if you an upside-down bottle of coke with push buttons at the top and cable entry at the bottom end. The cable itself is screened multicore with a molded end connector so there is a minimum length it must protrude from the product before it even thinks about bending. This is about an inch and a half (about 40mm). According to ISO TR 10605, if insulation is required under the EUT, the insulation must support the EUT some 25mm above the ground plane. Question 1: Does this insulation have to be 25mm thick or can I make a table like structure with thinner insulating sheet and supporting pillars at the corners? Question 2: Would a more 'compliant' test set-up have the bottle of coke lying on its side rather than standing vertically as it would in practice? The setup for the ESD test shows a ground strap connect the plane to a grounding rod. We had a specialised ESD test area where I worked before but we took everything for granted and didn't really bother finding out where or how the ground connection was made! Question 3: Can I connect the ground strap via say a UK 3-pin plug (with live and neutral prongs removed) into a mains socket or is this asking for trouble (RCD's etc). Grateful for any advice Regards - Chris Chileshe _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call 01285 884400. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Typing Shortcuts - the directive
Hi group, Sorry I haven't been able to reply to your e-mails following release of the directive. An organisation called the RSPCT (Royal Society for Prevention of Confusion to Teenagers) was immediately formed here in the UK and I gather I will need to appear before a tribunal. Now enough with the frivolity before you get me in more trouble. I believe we were discussing radiated emissions setups and the use of mercury in test equipment? TTYL - Chris -Original Message- From: pgodf...@icomply.com [SMTP:pgodf...@icomply.com] Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:05 PM To: chris.chile...@ultronics.co.uk; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: Typing Shortcuts - the directive File: ATT1.txt; charset = windows-1252 _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call 01285 884400. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Typing Shortcuts - the directive
I guess we better start with the directive. Sigh! Here goes ... __ Having regard to the existence of the net acronyms and typing shortcuts, and in particular, the emc-pstc DL thereof, In cooperation with subscribers, clearly frequent visitors to chat rooms, moonlighting as safety and compliance personnel Having some regard to the opinion of the professional, student and teenage communities, and in particular, organisations of a nerdistic persuasion, Whereas it is necessary to adopt measures with the aim of progressively establishing the global market over a period expiring at the second coming of Christ Whereas the global market, comprises an area without internal frontiers in which free exchange of acronyms is ensured over the net and text-ready mobile communications devices Whereas member states are responsible for providing adequate translation for communication by acronyms where message meanings may be degraded by exposure to the unfamiliar and therefore pose a communication hazard Whereas member states are also responsible for providing adequate protection for acrommunications receivers in the form of uninitiated recipients; the immunity levels may vary between member states. Whereas Global Council Directive 2001/EMC-PSTC/GC of June 14th on the initial stage of the recognition of type-approval for the acronyms used in public covers in particular, the confusion (emissions) caused by uncertified acronyms when used in normal communication Whereas it is still necessary to provide adequate translation for acronyms ideally in methods precluding the use of other acronyms, for protection of message recipients against effects such as dyslexia on the parts of the sender and receiver or both Whereas in some member states, mandatory provisions define in particular the permissible acronyms and length thereof, that may be used in any one exchange and the character set must be agreed and harmonised Whereas no member state shall authorise the use of the acronyms AFAIK and CMIIW (see below) pursuant to a goal to preclude words starting with phonetically silent letters; excepting that such an acronym confuses a teenager, in which case its use is legal. Whereas member states shall encourage the use of special acronyms exclusive to their respective criminal fraternity to enable their ease of capture by security forces monitoring mother's day cards. To this end, the acronym YTTM? shall invariably translate to 'You talking to me?' and shall be dispensed with a distinctively Robert De Niro accent. Whereas the national provisions ensuring such protection of recipients must be harmonised in order to guarantee the free movement of acronyms without lowering existing and justified levels of coherence, tone and morals. For the purpose of this directive, the Jerry Springer show in participating member states is exempt. Whereas Global Community Legislation as it stands at present provides that, notwithstanding one of the fundamental rules of the community, namely, free movement of information, classified or otherwise, barriers to intra-community exchange resulting from disparities in national servers on the filtering of messages have to be accepted in so far as those provisions may be recognised as necessary to satisfy essential requirements of the member nation's religious, social or political ethics e.g. acronyms which inadvertently or otherwise translate to vulgarity or cause offence in member states. Whereas the Global Council recognises the existence of member states whose alphabets are not traditionally western, the practicality of using these 'Class I' alphabets for acronyms in environments other than those exclusively employing the alphabet for regular communication, is limited and therefore not covered by the scope of this directive. Whereas member states shall discourage the use of net acronyms when exchanging information with Class I recipients; excepting that the acronym is in hieroglyphics, in which case a Nobel prize is due. Whereas member states shall discourage the use of net acronyms in environments where they impair the effective transfer of information, namely in verbal communication. Notwithstanding, Manhattan shall be deemed exempt from this requirement and acronyms may be used in free speech. Whereas it is nevertheless possible that acronyms may cause offence, whereas provision should therefore be made for a procedure to reduce this hazard Whereas member states shall advise users on the need for caution in using the acronym 'CUL' as 'Cul de sac' may lead to charges of sexual harassment. Whereas declaration of conformity will require certification by a competent body (See note 3 ) Whereas NC (Net compliant) declaration of conformity concerning the acronym constitutes presumption of its conformity with this directive Notes For the purpose of this directive 1 - Acronym means net acronyms. Acronyms and abbreviations
RE: Supply i/p o/p filtering
I would be grateful if any private replies to this e-mail would be copied to me as well. Sounds a lot like a DC to DC converter I will be looking at in a couple of months. Best regards Chris Chileshe Ultronics ltd. mailto:chris.chile...@ultronics.co.uk -Original Message- From: andrew.p.pr...@baesystems.com [SMTP:andrew.p.pr...@baesystems.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:06 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Supply i/p o/p filtering Hi there, Has anybody got any circuits for input and output filtering of dc to dc switch mode supplies, looking to filter a supply with a clock rate of 300kHz, that is a switching a 28Vdc square wave into a transformer. Ouput supplies and 0V taken from transformer tapings. Note: at present 0V not referenced to ground on output. Input has a cm choke and X cap Regards Andy This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call 01285 884400. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call 01285 884400. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: EMC Wall Charts
Just before Derek gets flamed, can I just mention that I got a set of these free from Schaffner earlier this year (paper versions) and would heartily recommend them for any office, lab or test house that is remotely EMC related. The information is quite invaluable and if you don't like them, you can use them to cover up sections of the wall disfigured by electrolyte from exploding capacitors during surge testing. Best regards - Chris Chileshe -Original Message- From: lfresea...@aol.com [SMTP:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:35 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:EMC Wall Charts Hi all, I think this is OK, tell me if not! Schaffner has put out a series of colour wall charts. There are 4 covering emissions, immunity and automotive test requirements. There are Adobe Acrobat versions, or there are 0.7m by 1m paper versions. The Adobe Acrobat version can be downloaded from the website. Go to www.schaffner.com, then move your mouse over the EMC information button, a drop down list will include the wall charts as an option. Paper copies need to obtained ( for Free! ) from your local rep I hope notification these charts are available is an acceptable use of the list. Derek Walton L F Research/Schaffner --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
CPU clock emissions
Hi group, It's Friday and thinking hurts the head on a Friday, so I'll take the easier option and just ask. I have just returned from emissions testing on a new product. The product uses a DSP which runs off an 8Mhz oscillator and internally 'ups' this to 40Mhz. It also has a CLOCK_OUT pin which is currently floating. I have 'beyond the limit' emissions at 40Mhz and higher harmonics of this frequency. Has anyone got any good simple, cost effective ideas how to suppress these emissions which are apparent in both radiated and conducted emissions? Would appreciate your personal experiences on suppressing these narrowband emissions are welcome. Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Final EMC Testing In-House
Hi Joe, Not sure I've understood your question correctly. Are you asking 1) If there are further tests that need to be added to your list to complete the EMC requirements (excluding of course radiated emissions and immunity) or 2) What extra equipment you need to perform the tests you have already listed. If 1), then I believe you have covered all the tests, assuming supply frequency variations are captured in Voltage fluctuations. If 2), then following the standard should highlight the need for appropriate ground planes, grounding connections, correct cable lengths and types of insulation where appropriate. It might be an idea to establish clearly what your line impedance is when you do the harmonic measurements. Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: marti...@appliedbiosystems.com [SMTP:marti...@appliedbiosystems.com] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 5:24 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Final EMC Testing In-House Group, We are planning to perform final EMC testing in-house for the following tests per EN 61326: EN 61000-4-2 ESD EN 61000-4-4 Line Transients EN 61000-4-5 Surge EN 61000-4-6 Conducted Immunity EN 61000-4-11 Voltage Interruptions EN 61000-3-2 Harmonics EN 61000-3-3 Voltage Fluctuations With the exception of purchasing test equipment that meets the standards, what else is required for us to perform final testing? Please note that we are not planning to perform Radiated Emissions and Radiated Immunity testing. Your help is appreciated Joe Martin Applied Biosystems --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Shielded Room
Hi Jim, Try http://www.emctest.com/ The standards will depend on what needs to be tested in the room as the field strengths, absorber materials, types of antennae and physical size if the EUT all have a part to play. Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - Cheltenham, UK -Original Message- From: Jim Bacher [SMTP:jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 3:31 PM To: Acon Harsono; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: davehe...@mediaone.net Subject:Re:Shielded Room forwarding for a_hars...@telkom.net Reply Separator Subject:Shielded Room Author: Acon Harsono a_hars...@telkom.net List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 2/15/01 6:46 PM Hello All, I am studying the Shielded Room for Conducted RFI testing. Can anybody tell me the technical requirements or standards for the shielded room ? Thank you, Acon Harsono SUCOFINDO Laboratory - Indonesia Tlp.: +62 21 88321176 ext. 1862 Fax.: +62 21 88321166 email: a_hars...@telkom.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: WVTA
Hi guys, http://www.vca.gov.uk might be a good start point. Regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Jim Bacher [SMTP:jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 5:25 PM To: Mr. Paul Chan; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:Re:WVTA forrwarding for paul_c...@hkstc.com Reply Separator Subject:WVTA Author: Mr. Paul Chan paul_c...@hkstc.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 2/13/01 12:14 PM Dear Group, I have been asked about the EU 'WVTA' Whole Vehicle Type Approval. Have you got any information about this approval, such as web-site. Thanks Paul Chan HKSTC --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Is Tetra safe?
Hi all, I read Hjalmar Arnason's posting on safety markings in Iceland and noticed the Tetra number in the signature. I gather that the US has decided against the use of Tetra. It is just slowly being phased in by Dolphin Telecommunications here in the UK and is on trial by a number of the emergency services. There was an article on Tetra on British television only yesterday (06-Feb-2001, Channel 4 news, http://www.channel4.com/news) suggesting there were potential hazards with the system. Anyone out there with definitive knowledge on the effect of the Tetra pulsed radio frequency on the brain (calcium cell migration leading to changes in behaviour, personality, memory etc) and is there a standard being devised for compliance. Regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Limited - Cheltenham, UK -Original Message- From: Hjalmar Arnason [SMTP:hjal...@tetra.is] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 8:47 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: Iceland Hi all I had already given my comment to Mr. Woods since his was the original question but as far as I can tell we accept markings in English, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian. I have not seen any safety markings in Icelandic on equipment, except on those manufact. here. Those who can read/write English and Icelandic have little problem reading the other language's. For further info try: http://www.pta.is/ http://www.ls.is/english/english.html http://www.stjr.is/ivr/ wbr-Hjalmar. STIKLA ehf Hjalmar Arnason Manager Technical Operations Hlidasmara 11 201 Kopavogi Iceland hjal...@tetra.is gsm. +354 8626265 nmt. +354 8526265 tetra.+354 6386265 ph. +354 5455703 fax. +354 5455709 http://www.tetra.is/ -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gary McInturff Sent: 5. februar 2001 16:11 To: 'am...@westin.org'; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Iceland UL60950 in 1.7.12 Allows the following. Instructions and equipment marking related to safety shall be in a language which is acceptable in the country in which the equipment is installed. Note 1 - Documentation intended for use only by Service personnel is permitted in the English language only. Note 2 - Germany, safety related information also for service personnel has to be in the German language. So if Iceland accepts the harmonized standards they should accept just those two. I didn't say I recommend it, but space becomes an issue after awhile. As a minimum I put the stuff in English, French, and German, then as marketing identifies new countries and translate the manual further they end up adding additional translations for the safety markings as well. Someone earlier asked about finding translators. Generally, speaking you can find them at nearby universities. They along with some of the professional translations services sometimes have problems translating technical documents, I assume because of the acronyms and industry-centric vocabulary. Gary -Original Message- From: am...@westin.org [mailto:am...@westin.org] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 1:02 AM To: wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Iceland Richard, Is the official language in Iceland Icelandic? Yes Being a member of the EFTA,I understand that they adopt the EU Declarations and harmonized standards. Yes they do. In cases where a directive or harmonized standard requires information to be in the national language, is Icelandic the only acceptable language? I am not sure. I previously understood that Norwegian was accepted, but now I am not sure. Norway and Iceland had common language way back in time (some hundreds years ago). Today Norwegian and Icelandic languages are quite different, and I am quite sure that they do not use/accept/understand Norwegian language up north in Iceland. Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail
RE: UL standards for Automotive ESAs
Thank you for the welcome and thank you to everyone who replied to my query on the subject. Perhaps I should have mentioned that I have spent long hours in the past browsing the UL and associated websites for any such standard and have not had much success. Patty Knudsen replied and wrote she believed there was no UL standard for automotive ESA safety and I am inclined to believe that is the case, unless anyone else out there knows better. I have been directed to the SAE website and must say it looks quite promising. The URL is http://www.sae.org/servlets/index I thought I'd send an update to the list in case there was anyone else interested in the subject or would beg to differ. Best regards - Chris This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
UL standards for Automotive ESAs
Hi all, New subscriber here. I have recently moved from designing variable speed drives to automotive electronics and hence aiming for the 'e' as opposed to the CE mark. As part of our drives release procedure, we were required to meet UL standards and used to test to UL 508C. I have clearly established the other standards I need to be designing to such as ISO-7637, ISO 10605, ISO-11452, CISPR-25, CISPR-12 and CISPR-16, but I have been rather hard pushed to find a UL equivalent for automotive electronics i.e. is there a UL safety standard for vehicle Electronic Sub-assemblies (ESA), the likes of engine management units etc? Would appreciate some advice. Regards Chris Chileshe Ultronics Ltd Cheltenham, Glos. UK This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
