On 24 Sep 2012, at 18:16, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Monday, September 24, 2012 5:13:11 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 23 Sep 2012, at 20:11, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Sunday, September 23, 2012 11:28:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal
wrote:
On 23 Sep 2012, at 15:05, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Brian,
On 24 Sep 2012, at 19:44, Brian Tenneson wrote:
Hi Bruno
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
wrote:
Hi Brian,
On 13 Sep 2012, at 22:04, Brian Tenneson wrote:
Bruno,
You use B as a predicate symbol for belief I think.
I use for the modal
On 25 Sep 2012, at 05:45, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com
wrote:
Pain is anything but epiphenomenal. The fact that someone is able
to talk about it rules out it being an epiphenomenon.
The behaviour - talking about the pain
Hi Bruno Marchal
Do you believe that a computer has a physical mind
that can be conscious ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/25/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver:
Hi Bruno Marchal
The immanent is that which is in spacetime, is extended and physical.
The transcendent is that which is outside of spacetime, is not extended and is
nonphysical.
Platonia is transcendent, numbers are transcendent, arithmetic is transcendent.
Yet you seem to believe that mind
Hi Bruno Marchal
In idealism the ideal world is the reflection of the actual world,
so that the material brain is reflected in the ideal mind,
but one critical difference.
Thought requires that somewhere there's a someone or something
in the driver's seat. I can't imagine a material self, it
Hi John Clark
Leibniz's supreme monad, or if you like, Plato's All
observes all, everywhere, all of the time.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/25/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: John Clark
In a mathematical universe, platonia is the world of the platonic solids,
the laws of newton, the equations of schrödinger, The general laws of
gravity, the M theory, the peaks in the fitness landscape of every specie
and the Nash equilibriums in social environments. It is not a harsh
universe,
Hi Stephen P. King
I don't deny that a computer can optimize itself,
but I deny that the operation is autonomous,
meaning independent, for ultimately it is software
dependent, using a program written by an outsider.
True intelligence and true consciousness must be
to whatever extent possible
Hi Stephen P. King
Yes, I think that the structures and
attributes of matter are provided
by a creator (the All, the supreme
monad, or God). Plato used the analogy
of geometrical shapes for his structures.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/25/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near
Hi Stephen P. King
No, the subject has to perceive the object,
not be the object. He must be apart from the
object of perception. Perception, intelligence,
consciousness all require such an external
observer/chooser.
Think of a chess game. The players are
not the rooks and pawns, they
Hi Stephen P. King
No. Think of how decisions are made. There has
to be an external thinker who is not
part of the problem who makes the decision.
In a chess game, the rooks and pawns do not
choose their own moves. The players,
who are external, do.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
Hi Stephen P. King
You people think that judging is racism.
But we cannot live without making judgments.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/25/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Stephen P. King
Hi Stathis Papaioannou
If you tell me that my mother has just died and I cry,
the process is initiated not by the objective brain, but
by a subjective thought. And more importantly, there has
to be a self to cause that thought and that reaction.
It was MY mother ! I feel sad.
The brain does
Hi smitra
If the moon doesn't exist, how were we able to land men on it ?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/25/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: smitra
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-24,
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
Yes, I think that the structures and
attributes of matter are provided
by a creator (the All, the supreme
monad, or God). Plato used the analogy
of geometrical shapes for his structures.
But if
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:36 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:
some people just want to say I believe in God so they warp the
definition of God until they can
On the opposite end of the spectrum, might there be those who warp the
definition, or cherry pick particular definitions,
Hi Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal
Do you believe that a computer has a physical mind
that can be conscious ?
My personal beliefs are private.
With comp a computer (universal machine/number) has no physical mind,
nor a primitive physical body. But it has an infinity of non physical
Hi Roger,
My idea about this is that the Moon and that we landed on it exists in
parallel with the Moon not existing or existing but we not landing on
it, or we already having a base on the oon etc. etc. etc. Then which of
these possibilities is real depends on the knowledge you happen to
On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 1:17:08 AM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comwrote:
On Monday, September 17, 2012 6:18:00 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
Craig,
Do you think if your brain were cut in half, but then perfectly put back
On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:36:45 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote:
There was no email message from the perspective of 'objective reality'
that you assume exists independently of all experience.
That's
On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:43:29 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 25 Sep 2012, at 05:45, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Jason Resch
jason...@gmail.comjavascript:
wrote:
Pain is anything but epiphenomenal. The fact that someone is able
On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 3:02:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 24 Sep 2012, at 18:16, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Monday, September 24, 2012 5:13:11 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 23 Sep 2012, at 20:11, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Sunday, September 23, 2012 11:28:49 AM
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
They have mechanistic characteristics as well, but they are not defined
as that only.
Craig doesn't inform us how he received this revelation.
Molecules aren't only machines either,
Craig doesn't inform us how he
On 9/25/2012 8:46 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Hi Roger,
My idea about this is that the Moon and that we landed on it exists in parallel with the
Moon not existing or existing but we not landing on it, or we already having a base on
the oon etc. etc. etc. Then which of these possibilities is
On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:33:30 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote:
They have mechanistic characteristics as well, but they are not defined
as that only.
Craig doesn't inform us how he received this revelation.
On 9/25/2012 12:07 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
No process or substance, function or form is remotely a substitute for
consciousness.
Well that will be a greatly relief to those engineers producing aritificial
intelligences. They won't have to worry about the ethical implications of producing
Roger:
Please then describe for us in detail however painstaking
that model of consciousness which you hold, and your means
of determining intelligence. That is, present for us in
clear text your measures; the waving of hands is specifically
disallowed as an offering of answer to this
On 9/25/2012 12:24 PM, William R. Buckley wrote:
From:everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-
l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:26 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Can a computer make independent choices ?
Hi Stephen P.
Citeren meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:
On 9/25/2012 8:46 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Hi Roger,
My idea about this is that the Moon and that we landed on it exists
in parallel with the Moon not existing or existing but we not
landing on it, or we already having a base on the oon etc. etc.
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote:
On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 1:17:08 AM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comwrote:
On Monday, September 17, 2012 6:18:00 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
Craig,
On 9/25/2012 8:26 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
I don't deny that a computer can optimize itself,
but I deny that the operation is autonomous,
meaning independent, for ultimately it is software
dependent, using a program written by an outsider.
Hi Roger,
Please think a while
On 9/25/2012 8:40 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
No, the subject has to perceive the object,
not be the object. He must be apart from the
object of perception. Perception, intelligence,
consciousness all require such an external
observer/chooser.
Do we perceive the object
On 9/25/2012 8:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
No. Think of how decisions are made. There has
to be an external thinker who is not
part of the problem who makes the decision.
In a chess game, the rooks and pawns do not
choose their own moves. The players,
who are external, do.
On 9/25/2012 8:47 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
You people think that judging is racism.
But we cannot live without making judgments.
I agree 100%. It is only the judgements based on mere emotion that
are almost always wrong and should be avoided. We must always remember
On 9/25/2012 10:24 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net
mailto:rclo...@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
Yes, I think that the structures and
attributes of matter are provided
by a creator (the All, the supreme
On 9/25/2012 11:46 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Hi Roger,
My idea about this is that the Moon and that we landed on it exists in
parallel with the Moon not existing or existing but we not landing on
it, or we already having a base on the oon etc. etc. etc. Then which
of these possibilities
On 9/25/2012 3:33 PM, meekerdb wrote:
On 9/25/2012 12:24 PM, William R. Buckley wrote:
From:everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-
l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:26 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Can a computer make
On 9/25/2012 4:32 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Citeren meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:
On 9/25/2012 8:46 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Hi Roger,
My idea about this is that the Moon and that we landed on it exists
in parallel with the Moon not existing or existing but we not
landing on it, or
So suppose there is a choice to be made. A or B. Is there software that
enables the computer to independently choose A or B.
What about a neural network of many nodes and connections that has been
through many epochs to the point where its outputs perfectly
*resemble*pseudorandom number
On 9/25/2012 3:44 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 9/25/2012 3:33 PM, meekerdb wrote:
On 9/25/2012 12:24 PM, William R. Buckley wrote:
From:everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-
l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:26 AM
To:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote:
On 9/25/2012 10:24 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
Yes, I think that the structures and
attributes of matter are provided
by
On 9/25/2012 6:48 PM, meekerdb wrote:
On 9/25/2012 3:44 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 9/25/2012 3:33 PM, meekerdb wrote:
On 9/25/2012 12:24 PM, William R. Buckley wrote:
From:everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-
l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough
Sent: Tuesday,
On 9/25/2012 7:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Stephen P. King
stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote:
On 9/25/2012 10:24 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Roger Clough
rclo...@verizon.net
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
Cells may not be only machines though, they are also self-organizing life
experiences. They have mechanistic characteristics as well, but they are not
defined as that only. Molecules aren't only machines either, but
On 9/25/2012 4:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
Yes. If we cannot prove that their existence is self-contradictory
Propositions can be self contradictory, but how can existence of something be
self-contradictory?
Brent
then we should consider them as possible. Just because I cannot experience
On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:27 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 9/25/2012 4:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
Yes. If we cannot prove that their existence is self-contradictory
Propositions can be self contradictory, but how can existence of
something be self-contradictory?
Brent
On 9/25/2012 8:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:27 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 9/25/2012 4:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
Yes. If we cannot prove that their existence is self-contradictory
Propositions can be self contradictory, but how can existence of
On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
Hi Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal
Do you believe that a computer has a physical mind
that can be conscious ?
My personal beliefs are private.
With comp a computer (universal machine/number) has no physical
mind, nor
On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 9/25/2012 8:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:27 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 9/25/2012 4:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
Yes. If we cannot prove that their existence is self-contradictory
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