Re: Primary matter

> On 11 Jul 2018, at 14:02, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Hi Bruno, > > Another long delay… Hi Telmo, No problem. That is why I prefer mail than phone, we can think before answering, or take some rest :) > >> I am not sure I commented your first paragraph, which might be a key for >>

Re: Primary matter

Hi Bruno, Another long delay... > I am not sure I commented your first paragraph, which might be a key for > trying to define what could be an explanation. What would be like a > satisfying explanation of consciousness, meaning, reality, etc. > > > >> On 20 Jun 2018, at 13:51, Telmo Menezes

Re: Primary matter

> On 2 Jul 2018, at 00:04, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 7/1/2018 5:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 29 Jun 2018, at 20:18, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/29/2018 3:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 27 Jun 2018, at 20:43, Brent

Re: Primary matter

On 7/1/2018 5:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Jun 2018, at 20:18, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 6/29/2018 3:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jun 2018, at 20:43, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 6/27/2018 1:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Re: Primary matter

> On 29 Jun 2018, at 20:18, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/29/2018 3:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 27 Jun 2018, at 20:43, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/27/2018 1:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 27 June 2018 at 03:24, Brent Meeker

Re: Primary matter

On 6/29/2018 3:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jun 2018, at 20:43, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 6/27/2018 1:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 27 June 2018 at 03:24, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/26/2018 2:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 25 June 2018 at 19:54, Brent

Re: Primary matter

> On 27 Jun 2018, at 20:43, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/27/2018 1:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> On 27 June 2018 at 03:24, Brent Meeker >> wrote: >>> >>> On 6/26/2018 2:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 25 June 2018 at 19:54, Brent Meeker

Re: Primary matter

> On 27 Jun 2018, at 06:31, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/26/2018 11:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 25 Jun 2018, at 18:37, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/25/2018 3:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 23 Jun 2018, at 08:03, Brent

Re: Primary matter

On 6/27/2018 1:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 27 June 2018 at 03:24, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/26/2018 2:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 25 June 2018 at 19:54, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/25/2018 8:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I don't think that's the case. C seems to me to be capable to

Re: Primary matter

On 27 June 2018 at 03:24, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/26/2018 2:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On 25 June 2018 at 19:54, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 6/25/2018 8:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> I don't think that's the case. C seems to me to be capable to explaining >>> anything

Re: Primary matter

On 6/26/2018 11:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Jun 2018, at 18:37, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 6/25/2018 3:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jun 2018, at 08:03, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 6/22/2018 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Primary matter

On 6/26/2018 2:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 25 June 2018 at 19:54, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/25/2018 8:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I don't think that's the case. C seems to me to be capable to explaining anything (e.g. we're living in the Matrix). The theories of M are certainly

Re: Primary matter

> On 25 Jun 2018, at 18:37, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/25/2018 3:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 23 Jun 2018, at 08:03, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/22/2018 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> This does not mean that a conscious

Re: Primary matter

Hi Telmo, I am not sure I commented your first paragraph, which might be a key for trying to define what could be an explanation. What would be like a satisfying explanation of consciousness, meaning, reality, etc. > On 20 Jun 2018, at 13:51, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Hi Bruno, > >>> I

Re: Primary matter

On 25 June 2018 at 19:54, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/25/2018 8:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > I don't think that's the case. C seems to me to be capable to explaining > anything (e.g. we're living in the Matrix). The theories of M are certainly > incomplete, but if there is empirical data

Re: Primary matter

On 6/25/2018 8:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I don't think that's the case. C seems to me to be capable to explaining anything (e.g. we're living in the Matrix). The theories of M are certainly incomplete, but if there is empirical data inconsistent with those theories it just shows they have

Re: Primary matter

On 6/25/2018 7:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If not, mechanism is refuted (or we are in a malevolent simulation, which is better to never assume, as this can again explains everything, like super determinism or epiphenomenalism (as you said at the relevant place to Brent). Does no one else

Re: Primary matter

On 6/25/2018 3:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jun 2018, at 08:03, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 6/22/2018 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This does not mean that a conscious machine is necessarily more efficacious on all task, What is the added undecideable

Re: Primary matter

On 21 June 2018 at 22:52, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/21/2018 3:55 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On 21 June 2018 at 00:53, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 6/20/2018 4:51 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Bruno, >> I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles.

Re: Primary matter

> On 25 Jun 2018, at 13:57, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 22 June 2018 at 13:31, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 20 Jun 2018, at 13:51, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bruno, >>> > I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves > me dissatisfied, but if I try

Re: Primary matter

On 22 June 2018 at 13:31, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 20 Jun 2018, at 13:51, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> Hi Bruno, >> I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves me dissatisfied, but if I try to verbalize this dissatisfaction I feel stuck in a loop.

Re: Primary matter

> On 23 Jun 2018, at 08:03, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/22/2018 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This does not mean that a conscious machine is necessarily more efficacious on all task, >>> What is the added undecideable sentence implied by consciousness? >> “I am conscious”. >

Re: Primary matter

On 6/22/2018 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This does not mean that a conscious machine is necessarily more efficacious on all task, What is the added undecideable sentence implied by consciousness? “I am conscious”. What does that speed up?  Does the speed up from adding an undeciable

Re: Primary matter

> On 21 Jun 2018, at 12:55, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 21 June 2018 at 00:53, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> On 6/20/2018 4:51 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bruno, >>> > I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves > me dissatisfied, but if I try to

Re: Primary matter

> On 21 Jun 2018, at 06:44, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/11/2018 8:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Hi Telmo, >> >> >>> On 11 Jun 2018, at 13:53, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bruno, >>> >>> Sorry for the delay, had a friend visiting. >> >> No problem. From tomorrow (Tuesday) to

Re: Primary matter

> On 20 Jun 2018, at 13:51, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Hi Bruno, > >>> I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves >>> me dissatisfied, but if I try to verbalize this dissatisfaction I feel >>> stuck in a loop. Perhaps this illustrates your point. >> >> >> We might

Re: Primary matter

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 3:52 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > Who is more dogmatic about their world view, the MWI'ists or the CI'ers? > Which sounds more like a religion, "Everything exists, we just can't see > it." or "Shut up and calculate."? > > > "Nor can I ever sufficiently admire [Copernicus

Re: Primary matter

On 6/21/2018 3:55 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 21 June 2018 at 00:53, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/20/2018 4:51 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Bruno, I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves me dissatisfied, but if I try to verbalize this dissatisfaction I feel

Re: Primary matter

On 21 June 2018 at 00:53, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/20/2018 4:51 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> Hi Bruno, >> I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves me dissatisfied, but if I try to verbalize this dissatisfaction I feel stuck in a loop. Perhaps

Re: Primary matter

On 6/11/2018 8:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Telmo, On 11 Jun 2018, at 13:53, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Bruno, Sorry for the delay, had a friend visiting. No problem. From tomorrow (Tuesday) to Friday, I have many oral exams (+ a conference in Nivelles, a city nearby). So take your

Re: Primary matter

On 6/20/2018 4:51 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Bruno, I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves me dissatisfied, but if I try to verbalize this dissatisfaction I feel stuck in a loop. Perhaps this illustrates your point. We might need to do some detour about

Re: Primary matter

Hi Bruno, >> I follow your reasoning, from one of your recent articles. This leaves >> me dissatisfied, but if I try to verbalize this dissatisfaction I feel >> stuck in a loop. Perhaps this illustrates your point. > > > We might need to do some detour about what it would mean to explain >

Re: Primary matter

Hi Telmo, > On 11 Jun 2018, at 13:53, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Hi Bruno, > > Sorry for the delay, had a friend visiting. No problem. From tomorrow (Tuesday) to Friday, I have many oral exams (+ a conference in Nivelles, a city nearby). So take your time to comment and express the

Re: Primary matter

Hi Bruno, Sorry for the delay, had a friend visiting. > Ah! Let me try to answer.Keep in mind that I assume elementary arithmetic and > thus computations, etc. > (I am not sure I need YD here, but it can help). > > >> >> - Why does consciousness even exist? > > Consciousness is somehow the

Re: Primary matter

> On 10 Jun 2018, at 19:25, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:41 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​>>​I don't care who led what, and neither physics nor mathematical logic is > religion. I asked 3 times but you did not provide one single example

Re: Primary matter

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>>​ >> I don't care who led what, and neither physics nor mathematical logic is >> religion. I asked 3 times but you did not provide one single example of an >> improvement in theology between 500BC and 500AD . Not one. > > > ​>​ > *The

Re: Primary matter

> On 8 Jun 2018, at 20:14, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 6:49 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​​>> ​Here? Where? You said there were many improvements in theology between > 500BC and 500AD and I asked for examples, and for the second time you were >

Re: Primary matter

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 6:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> Here? Where? You said there were many improvements in theology between >> 500BC and 500AD and I asked for examples, and for the second time you were >> unable to provide a single one. ​ > > > ​>* ​* > *I provided them; already

Re: Primary matter

> On 8 Jun 2018, at 13:10, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/8/2018 3:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> You confuse religion with argument per authority, and tat will continue as >> long as theology does not come back to science, which put reason before >> texts, and is modest in never

Re: Primary matter

On 6/8/2018 3:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You confuse religion with argument per authority, and tat will continue as long as theology does not come back to science, which put reason before texts, and is modest in never claiming truth, but only means of testing ideas. No, you are confusing

Re: Primary matter

> On 7 Jun 2018, at 23:11, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/7/2018 10:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 7 Jun 2018, at 02:26, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/6/2018 10:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It does. When the machine opts for <>p in the doubt between p and <>p, if

Re: Primary matter

> On 7 Jun 2018, at 21:58, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/7/2018 1:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> ee above, i.e. because it is necessary. Science may well determine when >>> and where and what relations there are. But not why. That's the >>> "engineering" solution to the hard problem

Re: Primary matter

> On 7 Jun 2018, at 20:01, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​> ​I meant: here are the improvements described, in the works of Pythagorus > to Damascus. > > ​Here? Where? You said there were many improvements in

Re: Primary matter

On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 06:41:35PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > > One way of moving forward is that when you talk about the "Robust" > > universe case, you are effectively postulating Platonism of > > computations. > > ? > > I have used “robust” only for a physical universe. It is a

Re: Primary matter

On 6/7/2018 10:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 7 Jun 2018, at 02:26, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/6/2018 10:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It does. When the machine opts for <>p in the doubt between p and <>p, if it let it go, in some sense, it transforms itself into a more speedy and more

Re: Primary matter

On 6/7/2018 1:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ee above, i.e. because it is necessary. Science may well determine when and where and what relations there are. But not why. That's the "engineering" solution to the hard problem of consciousness for which I am often criticized. Because you limit

Re: Primary matter

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > I meant: here are the improvements described, in the works of Pythagorus > to Damascus. > ​Here? Where? You said there were many improvements in theology between 500BC and 500AD and I asked for examples, and for the second time you

Re: Primary matter

> On 7 Jun 2018, at 03:28, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> >>> On 5 Jun 2018, at 03:34, Bruce Kellett < >>> bhkell...@optusnet.com.au >>> > wrote: >>> >>> The difference is perhaps

Re: Primary matter

> On 7 Jun 2018, at 02:26, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/6/2018 10:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> It does. When the machine opts for <>p in the doubt between p and <>p, if it >> let it go, in some sense, it transforms itself into a more speedy and more >> efficacious machine, with

Re: Primary matter

> On 6 Jun 2018, at 14:48, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >>> Yes, but why are the "lights on" inside me? Why are we not mechanisms, >>> that do exactly what you describe, but without a first-person >>> experience of it? >> >> >> Ah, there's your problem. Science doesn't answer "why" questions.

Re: Primary matter

> On 7 Jun 2018, at 01:46, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > ​>> ​ From -500 to +500, theology has progressed a lot. > > I​>> ​I'd like to see some examples of that. > > ​> ​Pythagorus, Heraclitus, Parmenides,

Re: Primary matter

On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 08:26:34PM -0700, Brent Meeker wrote: > Interesting story.  But hasn't the Sun been getting hotter, which would mean > moving from yellow toward green rather than the other way.  And it's still > still more a yellow than green store. The peak of the sun's spectrum is about

Re: Primary matter

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/5/2018 8:12 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> On 4 June 2018 at 20:30, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> On 6/4/2018 3:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Most scientists and scientifically-literate people I know assume that consciousness

Re: Primary matter

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 23:26, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/5/2018 7:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> On 4 June 2018 at 23:48, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> On 6/4/2018 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> I am very grateful for mother medicine, but >>> we should not pretend that its

Re: Primary matter

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 16:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 4 June 2018 at 17:11, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 3 Jun 2018, at 20:40, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On 2 June 2018 at 17:10, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I'd like

Re: Primary matter

Interesting story.  But hasn't the Sun been getting hotter, which would mean moving from yellow toward green rather than the other way.  And it's still still more a yellow than green store.  So why don't the red/blue pigmented plants out compete the green ones.  I think there must be more to

Re: Primary matter

From: *Bruno Marchal* mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> On 5 Jun 2018, at 03:34, Bruce Kellett > wrote: The difference is perhaps most easily captured in the use of the word "exists". If we say that there "exists" an integer between 2 and 4, then that could be

Re: Primary matter

On 6/6/2018 10:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It does. When the machine opts for <>p in the doubt between p and <>p, if it let it go, in some sense, it transforms itself into a more speedy and more efficacious machine, with respect to its most probable history. So, consciousness brings a

Re: Primary matter

On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 03:16:31PM -0700, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/6/2018 8:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > But in the early days of life on this planet random > > > mutation and natural selection stumbled upon a key molecule in the > > > photosynthesis process, chlorophyll, that just

Re: Primary matter

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > ​>> ​ > * From -500 to +500, theology has progressed a lot.* > I > ​>> ​I > 'd like to see some examples of that. > *​> ​Pythagorus, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Plato, Moderatus of Gades, > Plotinus, Proclus, Porphyry, … Damascius. That

Re: Primary matter

On 6/6/2018 8:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: But in the early days of life on this planet random mutation and natural selection stumbled upon a key molecule in the photosynthesis process, chlorophyll, that just happens to be green and it works OK, not perfectly but OK. In Evolution you don't have

Re: Primary matter

On 6/6/2018 5:48 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Yes, but why are the "lights on" inside me? Why are we not mechanisms, that do exactly what you describe, but without a first-person experience of it? Ah, there's your problem. Science doesn't answer "why" questions. That's what I mean by people

Re: Primary matter

> On 4 Jun 2018, at 16:13, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 3 June 2018 at 23:01, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> On 6/3/2018 4:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On 1 June 2018 at 22:37, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/1/2018 7:49 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> Physical

Re: Primary matter

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 16:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 4 June 2018 at 23:48, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> On 6/4/2018 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> I am very grateful for mother medicine, but >> we should not pretend that its operative assumptions solve the >> fundamental questions.

Re: Primary matter

Hi Russell, > On 5 Jun 2018, at 01:32, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 03:50:33PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> You seem to confuse arithmetical realism, used in all branches of science, >> and Platonism (which is part of the consequence). To define mathematically >>

Re: Primary matter

On 6 June 2018 at 17:08, John Clark wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 8:48 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> Science answers plenty of certain types of "why" >> questions: > > > It would be more accurate to say Science answers "how” questions; "why" > questions imply intent and

Re: Primary matter

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 8:48 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: ​> ​ > *Science answers plenty of certain types of "why"​ ​questions:* > It would be more accurate to say Science answers "how” questions; "why" questions imply intent and intent needs somebody to have a intention and there may not be one.

Re: Primary matter

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 03:34, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> >> >> You seem to confuse arithmetical realism, used in all branches of science, >> and Platonism (which is part of the consequence). To define mathematically >> what a computation is, we need

Re: Primary matter

> On 4 Jun 2018, at 21:05, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/4/2018 6:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> There is not one argument here. >> >> You seem to confuse arithmetical realism, used in all branches of science, >> and Platonism (which is part of the consequence). To define

Re: Primary matter

> On 4 Jun 2018, at 19:12, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​> ​ From -500 to +500, theology has progressed a lot. > > ​I'd like to see some examples of that. Pythagorus, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Plato, Moderatus of

Re: Primary matter

>> Yes, but why are the "lights on" inside me? Why are we not mechanisms, >> that do exactly what you describe, but without a first-person >> experience of it? > > > Ah, there's your problem. Science doesn't answer "why" questions. That's > what I mean by people having an exaggerated idea of what

Re: Primary matter

On 6/5/2018 8:12 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 4 June 2018 at 20:30, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/4/2018 3:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Most scientists and scientifically-literate people I know assume that consciousness emerges from brain activity without ever really thinking about the

Re: Primary matter

On 6/5/2018 7:58 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: If I understand correctly, you define free-will as the ability to act independently from other people, biological instincts and so on. My problem is that free-will must be free from something. I can accept it as a relative concept -- my free-will in

Re: Primary matter

On 6/5/2018 7:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 4 June 2018 at 23:48, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/4/2018 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I am very grateful for mother medicine, but we should not pretend that its operative assumptions solve the fundamental questions. What fundamental question do

Re: Primary matter

On 4 June 2018 at 20:30, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/4/2018 3:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> Most scientists and scientifically-literate people I know assume that >> consciousness emerges from brain activity without ever really thinking >> about the ramifications of this hypothesis. I have

Re: Primary matter

On 4 June 2018 at 17:11, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 3 Jun 2018, at 20:40, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On 2 June 2018 at 17:10, John Clark wrote: >>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Telmo Menezes >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'd like to see Bruno actually quote some well known philosophers or

Re: Primary matter

On 4 June 2018 at 23:48, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/4/2018 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > I am very grateful for mother medicine, but > we should not pretend that its operative assumptions solve the > fundamental questions. > > What fundamental question do you refer to? How to detect

Re: Primary matter

On 6/4/2018 4:39 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 02:48:01PM -0700, Brent Meeker wrote: It's a necessary feature of intelligence.  Intelligence requires "what-if" modeling of situations in order to foresee consequences. Even a the lower animal level this implies modeling

Re: Primary matter

On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 03:50:33PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > You seem to confuse arithmetical realism, used in all branches of science, > and Platonism (which is part of the consequence). To define mathematically > what a computation is, we need arithmetical realism. In SANE04, my

Re: Primary matter

From: *Bruno Marchal* mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> You seem to confuse arithmetical realism, used in all branches of science, and Platonism (which is part of the consequence). To define mathematically what a computation is, we need arithmetical realism. In SANE04, my definition is redundant

Re: Primary matter

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 7:07 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >> ​>​ >> Free-will is NOT *often* described that way, I have but I've never heard >> ​ >> anyone else do so; > > > ​> ​ > I'm _sure_ you've heard me describe it that way. It's in my book. ​I'm glad to hear I'm not alone!​ > ​> ​ > My

Re: Primary matter

On 6/4/2018 4:07 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 01:12:57PM -0400, John Clark wrote: ​>* ​* *Free-will is often defined by an ability to do something randomly, * Free-will is NOT *often* described that way, I have but I've never heard anyone else do so; I'm _sure_

Re: Primary matter

On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 02:48:01PM -0700, Brent Meeker wrote: > > It's a necessary feature of intelligence.  Intelligence requires "what-if" > modeling of situations in order to foresee consequences. Even a the lower > animal level this implies modeling oneself in the simulation. In higher, >

Re: Primary matter

On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 01:12:57PM -0400, John Clark wrote: > > ​>* ​* > > *Free-will is often defined by an ability to do something randomly, * > > > Free-will is NOT *often* described that way, I have but I've never heard > anyone else do so; I'm _sure_ you've heard me describe it that way.

Re: Primary matter

On 6/4/2018 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I am very grateful for mother medicine, but we should not pretend that its operative assumptions solve the fundamental questions. What fundamental question do you refer to? How to detect consciousness? How to produce consciousness? How to prove (in

Re: Primary matter

On 6/4/2018 6:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is not one argument here. You seem to confuse arithmetical realism, used in all branches of science, and Platonism (which is part of the consequence). To define mathematically what a computation is, we need arithmetical realism. Science

Re: Primary matter

On 6/4/2018 3:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Most scientists and scientifically-literate people I know assume that consciousness emerges from brain activity without ever really thinking about the ramifications of this hypothesis. I have had this conversation several times, and I can usually tell

Re: Primary matter

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> *​* > * From -500 to +500, theology has progressed a lot.* > ​ I'd like to see some examples of that. Religion didn't progress logically it just got dumber. Moses didn't claim to be God, Jesus did. And the entire crucifixion thing is

Re: Primary matter

> On 3 Jun 2018, at 21:56, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/3/2018 3:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> On 1 June 2018 at 19:41, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> On 6/1/2018 12:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 31 May 2018 at 19:57, Brent Meeker wrote: > > On 5/31/2018 2:06 AM, Telmo

Re: Primary matter

> On 3 Jun 2018, at 20:40, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 2 June 2018 at 17:10, John Clark wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Telmo Menezes >> wrote: >> >> I'd like to see Bruno actually quote some well known philosophers or >> scientist using the term. >>> >>> >>>

Re: Primary matter

> On 2 Jun 2018, at 17:10, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > >> I'd like to see Bruno actually quote some well known philosophers or > >> scientist using the term. > > > Materialism vs. Idealism is one of the

Re: Primary matter

On 3 June 2018 at 23:01, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/3/2018 4:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On 1 June 2018 at 22:37, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 6/1/2018 7:49 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Physical theories of the brain, based on extensive empirical research, > have

Re: Primary matter

> On 1 Jun 2018, at 19:41, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 6/1/2018 12:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> On 31 May 2018 at 19:57, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> On 5/31/2018 2:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: You're a bit naughty Brent. You sometimes use this maneuver of nonchalantly

Re: Primary matter

> On 1 Jun 2018, at 14:35, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> >>> On 1 Jun 2018, at 11:46, Bruce Kellett < >>> bhkell...@optusnet.com.au >>> > wrote: >>> >>> From: Bruno Marchal

Re: Primary matter

On 3 June 2018 at 21:56, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 6/3/2018 3:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On 1 June 2018 at 19:41, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 6/1/2018 12:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 31 May 2018 at 19:57, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 5/31/2018 2:06 AM,

Re: Primary matter

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: ​>* ​* > > *There have been tremendous philosophical advances in modern history > outside of the natural sciences.* Like what? Edwin Hubble was not payed by the philosophy department of any university and yet he made philosophical

Re: Primary matter

On 6/3/2018 4:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 1 June 2018 at 22:37, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/1/2018 7:49 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Physical theories of the brain, based on extensive empirical research, have linked the mind and consciousness to physical brain activity in irrefutable ways.

Re: Primary matter

On 6/3/2018 3:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 1 June 2018 at 19:41, Brent Meeker wrote: On 6/1/2018 12:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On 31 May 2018 at 19:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 5/31/2018 2:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: You're a bit naughty Brent. You sometimes use this maneuver of

Re: Primary matter

On 2 June 2018 at 17:10, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > >>> >> I'd like to see Bruno actually quote some well known philosophers or >>> >> scientist using the term. >> >> >> >> > Materialism vs. Idealism is one of the oldest philosophical debates, >

Re: Primary matter

On 3 June 2018 at 13:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On 1 June 2018 at 22:37, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> On 6/1/2018 7:49 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Physical theories of the brain, based on extensive empirical research, have linked the mind and consciousness to physical brain

  1   2   >