Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Feb 2014, at 02:45, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 04, 2014 at 08:49:57PM +1300, LizR wrote: I did wonder once if, since the holographic principle implies that the information in a universe is proportional to the surface area of the Hubble sphere, could it be that the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Feb 2014, at 07:16, meekerdb wrote: On 2/3/2014 10:00 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 12:44:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: Layzer of course didn't know about the holographic principle, which implies that the maximum possible entropy increases in proportion to the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread meekerdb
On 2/3/2014 11:49 PM, LizR wrote: I did wonder once if, since the holographic principle implies that the information in a universe is proportional to the surface area of the Hubble sphere, could it be that the information in the /multiverse/ is proportional to the volume of the Hubble sphere?

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread LizR
On 5 February 2014 06:24, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/3/2014 11:49 PM, LizR wrote: I did wonder once if, since the holographic principle implies that the information in a universe is proportional to the surface area of the Hubble sphere, could it be that the information in the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread Russell Standish
On Tue, Feb 04, 2014 at 08:49:57PM +1300, LizR wrote: I did wonder once if, since the holographic principle implies that the information in a universe is proportional to the surface area of the Hubble sphere, could it be that the information in the *multiverse* is proportional to the volume of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread LizR
On 5 February 2014 14:45, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Tue, Feb 04, 2014 at 08:49:57PM +1300, LizR wrote: I did wonder once if, since the holographic principle implies that the information in a universe is proportional to the surface area of the Hubble sphere, could it

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread ghibbsa
On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 1:45:18 AM UTC, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 04, 2014 at 08:49:57PM +1300, LizR wrote: I did wonder once if, since the holographic principle implies that the information in a universe is proportional to the surface area of the Hubble sphere,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread LizR
I don't know about a summary, but the whole book is available here: http://www.hpcoders.com.au/theory-of-nothing.pdf On 5 February 2014 17:58, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 1:45:18 AM UTC, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 04, 2014 at 08:49:57PM +1300, LizR

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-04 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 06:42:14PM +1300, LizR wrote: I don't know about a summary, but the whole book is available here: http://www.hpcoders.com.au/theory-of-nothing.pdf Thanks Liz. I should also add that I was alluding to the zero information principle (Tegmark may call this the minimal

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-03 Thread Russell Standish
On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 12:44:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: Layzer of course didn't know about the holographic principle, which implies that the maximum possible entropy increases in proportion to the surface area of the Hubble sphere rather than the volume. Vic Stenger has noted that if you

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-03 Thread meekerdb
On 2/3/2014 10:00 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 12:44:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: Layzer of course didn't know about the holographic principle, which implies that the maximum possible entropy increases in proportion to the surface area of the Hubble sphere rather than the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-03 Thread Russell Standish
On Mon, Feb 03, 2014 at 10:16:15PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: On 2/3/2014 10:00 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 12:44:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: Layzer of course didn't know about the holographic principle, which implies that the maximum possible entropy increases in

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-03 Thread meekerdb
On 2/3/2014 11:14 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Feb 03, 2014 at 10:16:15PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: On 2/3/2014 10:00 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 12:44:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: Layzer of course didn't know about the holographic principle, which implies that the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
I did wonder once if, since the holographic principle implies that the information in a universe is proportional to the surface area of the Hubble sphere, could it be that the information in the *multiverse* is proportional to the volume of the Hubble sphere? (Although I guess the multiverse

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 11:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:58 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:31, LizR wrote: Everything else I've said on this subject has been in response to people trying to argue that physics is not time symmetric. So far all such arguments have been a variant on the second law says so and my response has been a variant on the second law

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 2:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: PA is a reality, by itself, indeed an existing Löbian machine, and PA talks about a reality which is vaster than PA, and that no machine can grasp in its entirety. You confuse theory and model here. You can't kick Peano's axioms. Brent -- You

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 17, 2014, at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: PA is a reality, by itself, indeed an existing Löbian machine, and PA talks about a reality which is vaster than PA, and that no mac hine can grasp in its entirety. You confuse

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 16:08, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 17, 2014, at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: PA is a reality, by itself, indeed an existing Löbian machine, and PA talks about a reality which is vaster than PA,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 7:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 16:08, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 17, 2014, at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: PA is a

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 18:50, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 7:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 16:08, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 17, 2014, at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: PA is a

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:50 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 7:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 16:08, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 17, 2014, at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: PA

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 10:16 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:50 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 7:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 16:08, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 19:45, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:16 PM, Jason Resch wrote: The laws of arithmetic prevent you from writing down more than 2 distinct factors of 17. 17 = (17/4)*4 I've got a million of'em. ... using integers, which we know were created by

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I am not convinced, as I tend to not believe in any primitive time and space, at least when I tend to believe in comp (of course I *know* nothing). QM is indeed reversible (in large part), but using this

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 20:00, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in fact it may have been done). You have two emitters with polarizers and a detector at which you post-select

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 01:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:03 PM, LizR wrote: By the way, I may have this wrong but it seems to me your hyperdeterminism objection is an objection to block universes generally. I can't see how the big crunch (or timelike infinity) being a boundary condition

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:05, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle properties conform to what a computer's random number generator outputs, and then the digits of Pi, and then the binary expansion of the square root of 2, all

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:09 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It [entropy] is NOT the log of the number of ways a macro-state could form. That would be ambiguous in any case (do different order of events count as different ways? Yes obviously. the Boltzmann formula shows the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 11:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:58 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle properties

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:53 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 11:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:58 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 1:48 AM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 20:00, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 07:56, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/16/2014 1:48 AM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 20:00, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in fact

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 4:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, that's my point. Price make a logical point, though. But we have to abandon QM for QM + a lot of extra-information to select one reality. In that case why not come back to Ptolemeaus. The idea that it is the sun which moves in the sky is

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:08 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 January 2014 03:51, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:10 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 08:40, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:08 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 January 2014 03:51, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: (SNIP) Still, the fact remains that if your local realistic time-symmetric theory of physics

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 10:32 AM, Jason Resch wrote: They only 'seem to' because you neglect the fact that in the experiment you don't use the digits of pi from Platonia, you use their physical instantiation as calculated in the registers of a computer or written ink on a page. And what is

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 12:31, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/16/2014 10:32 AM, Jason Resch wrote: They only 'seem to' because you neglect the fact that in the experiment you don't use the digits of pi from Platonia, you use their physical instantiation as calculated in the registers

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 11:00 AM, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 07:56, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/16/2014 1:48 AM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 20:00, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 12:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You do use both in the forward case, but people kind of slide over the initial condition which is that you produce two particles with net-zero spin. It might seem more symmetric if we did the forward case by creating a lot of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 5:31 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/16/2014 10:32 AM, Jason Resch wrote: They only 'seem to' because you neglect the fact that in the experiment you don't use the digits of pi from Platonia, you use their physical instantiation as calculated in the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 4:46 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 5:31 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/16/2014 10:32 AM, Jason Resch wrote: They only 'seem to' because you neglect the fact that in the experiment you don't use

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR wrote: Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be misconstrued by someone who's being very nitpicky and looking for irrelevant loopholes to argue about, so let's try again. Now how about discussing what I've actually claimed, that the time symmetry of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR wrote: Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be misconstrued by someone who's being very nitpicky and looking for irrelevant loopholes to argue about, so let's try again. Now how about

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 11:10, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR wrote: Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be misconstrued by someone who's being very nitpicky and looking for irrelevant loopholes to argue about,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:10 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR wrote: Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be misconstrued by someone who's being very nitpicky and looking for irrelevant

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 11:10, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR wrote: Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be misconstrued by someone who's

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 4:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I am not convinced, as I tend to not believe in any primitive time and space, at least when I tend to believe in comp (of course I *know* nothing). QM is indeed reversible (in large part), but using this to select one branch by boundary condition, is

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 01:13, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 11:10, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR wrote: Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be misconstrued by someone who's being

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 03:51, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:10 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR wrote: Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 4:03 PM, LizR wrote: By the way, I may have this wrong but it seems to me your hyperdeterminism objection is an objection to block universes generally. I can't see how the big crunch (or timelike infinity) being a boundary condition on the universe is a problem in a block universe

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 4:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 03:51, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com mailto:laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:10 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 13:57, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:03 PM, LizR wrote: By the way, I may have this wrong but it seems to me your hyperdeterminism objection is an objection to block universes generally. I can't see how the big crunch (or timelike infinity) being a

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread Jason Resch
Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle properties conform to what a computer's random number generator outputs, and then the digits of Pi, and then the binary expansion of the square root of 2, all variously as the experimenters change the knobs as to

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in fact it may have been done). You have two emitters with polarizers and a detector at which you post-select only those particles that arrive and form a singlet. Then you will find that the correlation counts

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 5:13 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 13:57, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:03 PM, LizR wrote: By the way, I may have this wrong but it seems to me your hyperdeterminism objection is an objection to block universes

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
Thanks. I probably haven't time for the book, but will try to understand the paper. On 16 January 2014 16:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 5:13 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 13:57, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:03 PM, LizR wrote: By the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle properties conform to what a computer's random number generator outputs, and then the digits of Pi, and then the binary expansion of the square root of 2, all variously

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in fact it may have been done). You have two emitters with polarizers and a detector at which you post-select only those particles that

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-15 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:58 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle properties conform to what a computer's random number generator outputs, and then the digits of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-14 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: We know better than to think classical physics represents an exact description of our universe, but it certainly describes a logically possible mathematical universe Maybe but we don't know that with certainty, if we

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-14 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:41 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Retro-causality (time symmetry is a better term) only exists at the quantum level. Why? Where is the dividing line? And with a Schrodinger's Cat type device a quantum event can easily be magnified to a macro-event as large as

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-14 Thread meekerdb
On 1/14/2014 8:33 AM, John Clark wrote: but rather as the number of possible microstates the system might be in at this moment given that we only know the macrostate We don't even know for a fact that some macroscopic objects, like Black Holes for example, even contain

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-14 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 05:33, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: We know better than to think classical physics represents an exact description of our universe, but it certainly describes a logically possible

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-14 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 06:11, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:41 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Retro-causality (time symmetry is a better term) only exists at the quantum level. Why? Where is the dividing line? And with a Schrodinger's Cat type device

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-14 Thread LizR
Sorry, I realise that last sentence could be misconstrued by someone who's being very nitpicky and looking for irrelevant loopholes to argue about, so let's try again. Now how about discussing what I've actually claimed, that the time symmetry of fundamental physics could account for the results

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrot In classical physics there is no limit in principle to your knowledge of the microstate. Yes, 150 years ago every physicist alive thought that, today we know better. And in quantum physics, there is nothing in

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:47 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Retro-causality (time symmetry is a better term) only exists at the quantum level. Why? Where is the dividing line? And with a Schrodinger's Cat type device a quantum event can easily be magnified to a macro-event as large as

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Jan 2014, at 16:53, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrot In classical physics there is no limit in principle to your knowledge of the microstate. Yes, 150 years ago every physicist alive thought that, today we know better.

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:06 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'm not sure what time is symmetrical means to you. The term is self evident. It's the equations of dynamical evolution that are t-symmetric in physics Yes, time symmetrical laws of physics would usually mean that time

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 10:53 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrot In classical physics there is no limit in principle to your knowledge of the microstate. Yes, 150 years ago every physicist alive thought that,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread meekerdb
On 1/12/2014 8:20 AM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:47 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Retro-causality (time symmetry is a better term) only exists at the quantum level. Why? Where is the dividing line? And with a Schrodinger's Cat type device a

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: The entropy is defined not in terms of some vague notion of the number of ways the system could have gotten into its present microstate, but rather as the number of possible microstates the system might be in at this

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-12 Thread LizR
On 13 January 2014 05:20, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:47 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Retro-causality (time symmetry is a better term) only exists at the quantum level. Why? Where is the dividing line? And with a Schrodinger's Cat type device a

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: I never claimed Liouville's theorem was a fundamental law of physics in itself, Good, I agree. rather it is derivable as a mathematical consequence of certain features of the fundamental laws. And of the initial conditions!

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: As a lot of people have now pointed out, physics can be local and relistic if time symmetry is valid. If time is symmetrical then retro-causality exists, so how can realism hold? How can the outcome of a coin flip today have a

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:20 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: I never claimed Liouville's theorem was a fundamental law of physics in itself, Good, I agree. rather it is derivable as a mathematical consequence of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:43 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: As a lot of people have now pointed out, physics can be local and relistic if time symmetry is valid. If time is symmetrical then retro-causality exists,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 10, 2014, at 11:43 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: As a lot of people have now pointed out, physics can be local and relistic if time symmetry is valid. If time is symmetrical then retro-causality exists, so

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread LizR
On 11 January 2014 06:43, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: As a lot of people have now pointed out, physics can be local and relistic if time symmetry is valid. If time is symmetrical then retro-causality exists, so how

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread LizR
On 11 January 2014 08:52, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 10, 2014, at 11:43 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com lizj...@gmail.com wrote: As a lot of people have now pointed out, physics can be local and relistic

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-10 Thread meekerdb
On 1/10/2014 9:43 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote: As a lot of people have now pointed out, physics can be local and relistic if time symmetry is valid. If time is symmetrical I'm not sure what time is

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/9 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Well, read Bell. I have. It shows how QM violates his inequality. I know, I demonstrated exactly that on this very list using my own language. And Bell knew of course that

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: I think you will find relatively few physicists who expect that any new fundamental theory like quantum gravity will fail to have these [time] symmetries If so then time's arrow, that is to say time's asymmetry, is not

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: All the physicists I know regard the second law of thermodynamics as a statistical, not fundamental, law. Exactly, and because statistics is based on pure logic and not on the trendy physical theory of the day if you asked

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote For example, in Life one could define macrostates in terms of the ratio of white to black cells [...] In the Game of Life the number of black cells is always infinite, so I don't see how you can do any ratios. John K

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Well, read Bell. I have. It shows how QM violates his inequality. I know, I demonstrated exactly that on this very list using my own language. And Bell knew of course that his inequality was not consistent with Quantum

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 6:59 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I'm arguing that time is symmetric, Good luck winning that argument when nearly everything we observe, from cosmology to cooking, screams at us that time is NOT symmetric. Not at the quantum level, If so then obviously the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:11 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The equations of Newtonian dynamics are time-symmetric, I know. similarly for relativity both SR and GR - I know and quantum mechanics is, too. I know. The only thing in the entirety f physics that isn't based on time

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2014, at 17:53, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Well, read Bell. I have. It shows how QM violates his inequality. I know, I demonstrated exactly that on this very list using my own language. And Bell knew of course

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2014, at 18:24, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote For example, in Life one could define macrostates in terms of the ratio of white to black cells [...] In the Game of Life the number of black cells is always infinite,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:58 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:11 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The equations of Newtonian dynamics are time-symmetric, I know. similarly for relativity both SR and GR - I know and quantum mechanics is, too.

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:08 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: I think you will find relatively few physicists who expect that any new fundamental theory like quantum gravity will fail to have these [time]

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:24 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote For example, in Life one could define macrostates in terms of the ratio of white to black cells [...] In the Game of Life the number of black

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:53 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be to me, the Bell's inequality experimental violation is a quite strong evidence for MW, that is QM-without collapse. To me Bell's inequality experimental

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2014 9:45 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 6:59 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I'm arguing that time is symmetric, Good luck winning that argument when nearly everything we observe, from cosmology to cooking,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2014 9:58 AM, John Clark wrote: That and the equations of cosmology. The equations of cosmology, Einsteins or Wheeler-Dewitt, are T-symmetric. You seem to have confused the equations of evolution and the boundary conditions. Brent -- You received this message because you are

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: And as I've said, there is also the fact that if the laws of physics don't conserve phase space volume, the 2nd law wouldn't hold either. You've got it backwards, there is no fundamental law of physics concerning the

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:58 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: And as I've said, there is also the fact that if the laws of physics don't conserve phase space volume, the 2nd law wouldn't hold either. You've

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-09 Thread LizR
On 10 January 2014 06:58, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:11 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The equations of Newtonian dynamics are time-symmetric, I know. similarly for relativity both SR and GR - I know and quantum mechanics is, too. I know.

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