Re: [MD] questions about cover art

I In Buddhist symbolism the lotus is symbolic of purity of the body, speech, and mind as while rooted in the mud, its flowers blossom on long stalks as if floating above the muddy waters of attachment and desire. It is also symbolic of detachment as drops of water easily slide off its petals.

Re: [MD] questions about cover art

Lotus blossom. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 2, 2018, at 4:35 PM, list wrote: > > Hello, > > I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s books > and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is depicted on > several of the covers. I would suspect that

[MD] What we say vs. what we mean

By Maria Kasmirli When we convey a message indirectly like this, linguists say that we implicate the meaning, and they refer to the meaning implicated as an implicature. These terms were coined by the British philosopher Paul Grice (1913-88), who proposed an influential account of implicature

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Tuk: . X Acto there mightn't understand logic since he doesn't even write grammatically correct English. Maybe there are more such people around? Ron sez: Apologies Tuk,I was trying to do too many things at once. Long and short, the criticism still stands. You are dealing with the self reference

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 20, 2016, at 7:40 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko > wrote: > > okay, looks like I should've studied Lila's Child better. However, if it's > true that "matter comes before mind" and "mind comes before matter" then the > MOQ is inconsistent.

[MD] The New York Times: Opinion | A Life of Meaning (Reason Not Required)

I thought this article was interesting in a way How Philosophy is perceived in its current state. Opinion | A Life of Meaning (Reason Not Required) The New York Times If philosophy is to stay relevant, it must bridge the gap between feeling and thought. Read the full story Shared from Apple

Re: [MD] Does a guitar have quality

Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 17, 2016, at 1:44 PM, ngriffis wrote: > > This thread started with that guitar of Tuk's. I would like to add > the idea of "Art" to the discussion. I see it as if there are three centers > of manifest Quality. Ron responds: Associating

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

All, To clarify, it helps to remember that The four levels are a way of classifying ideas. I would go so far to say particularly our own ideas about experience. It is fun to entertain ideas about where organic and inorganic boundaries lay In Terms of explanation. But care must be taken Not to

Re: [MD] SOM

The seven of traps that derive from traditional logic are: The Forever Changeless Trap. In this trap we think of the current condition as being the same forever. The Process-Event Trap. This trap leads us into the error of thinking in terms of object-like events where we would do better to think

[MD] Anti intellectualism as a traditional American value

There is a growing crisis in American culture today, One that we all should be deeply concerned about. It has pervaded so deeply in our collective psyche that it has become virtually invisible. It manifests itself most noticeably in our current political situation and becomes

Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases

Ron had said: Bias is a temperament or outlook Towards static patterns. It is an attitude towards what is known. Marsha replies: Please remember I wrote Words have more than one meaning/connotation.  Here is the is entry for 'bias' that I would choose: 2.  a particular tendency or inclination,

[MD] fact

In the most basic sense, a fact is a verifiable observation or experience, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives:

Re: [MD] fact

A living philosophy is one that properly serves a psychological need. Not, however, as a comforting crutch or as a bandage for one’s neurosis. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives:

Re: [MD] Un-Pure Experience

Marsha:  I take all static patterns of value as seriously as burnt umber, light red, yellow ochre, cadmium yellow, cadmium scarlet, permanent rose, alizarin red, winsor violet, french ultramarine, thalo blue, thalo green, olive green and titanium.  Your suspicions, on the other hand, I do not

[MD] Mythos- the fresh maker

Dave Thomas said: Which leads right into the whole mythos, everything is an analogy business. Then you say, The four levels of static patterns are just a way to sort the mythos, right? All of that sits in contrast to DQ, the generator of the mythos. What this does is reduce all human knowledge

Re: [MD] Fwd: Re: Static Patterns Rock!

Dave M. said: Your quite right that this stuff has a lot of history,  I've read a lot of this stuff in 30 years of study, but where I used the white moon in a black background I am trying to indicate the differences is percepts that allow us to latch on to something in experience to base all

Re: [MD] Fwd: Re: Static Patterns Rock!

  Hi Ron [Ron] ...you seem to insist on the primacy of an external independent prime creator of pattern that human concepts correspond to and mirror when the Pragmatic assertion is the primacy of human imposition on experience. DM: No I insist there are differences and patterns in primary

Re: [MD] Nihilism, hmmm.

Dave, Enjoyed The Jung and the Restless, I was wondering if you saw any co-relationship between the hero's journey and Paul's two context paper.   Thnx -Ron From: david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org moq_disc...@moqtalk.org Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 8:45 AM

Re: [MD] Fwd: Re: Static Patterns Rock!

David Morey said to Dave Buchanan: I'll take incoherent back for a second,  you say DQ is full of content,  I say it is full of pattern, let's say it is full of X, now why is content so much better a word than pattern, what rules it out? Is there a better word for X? I have tried the split

Re: [MD] static patterns of value

Hello Joe, Evolution sure does limit the not divisible, not bounded, not patterned, not dualistic, not this, not that negation only scenario...some would say that evolution and the good are synonomous, that these ideas are what we mean by the term limit.   I've been asking Marsha how evolution

Re: [MD] DQ/sq, hmmm.

 static value is empty of inherent existence and cannot be found. How is that for a bottom line? Actually, it stinks as a bottom line. It's not thought out at all.   Inhere: to stick, to exist permanently and inseparably in, as a quality, attribute, or element; belong intrinsically, infixed,

[MD] my right to be an asshole

If, nothing is right or wrong and how I behave is simply a matter of my personal history and I can not be judged by it, I should have every right to say and behave anyway I wish and not be held responsible for it right? One persons threatening abusive behaviour is anothers witty and colorful

Re: [MD] DQ is neither this nor that?

Marsha: Here is how I represented the paragraph, with RMP quotes, for clarification: 1.  I accept the MoQ's idea that the world is nothing but value. The Metaphysics of Quality's central idea that the world is nothing but value is not part of any philosophic tradition that I know of.  
 - RMP



Re: [MD] Questions for Marsha.

[Ron] What drives evolution is not this, not that. [Arlo] Marsha's neti neti is another way of saying undefined. No one disputes this. No one has said Dynamic Quality is definable. In this sense, even Dynamic Quality (as a name) is problematic. Consider, what value the modifier Dynamic

Re: [MD] Questions for Marsha.

Marsha: You improve the human situation not with WHY's and HOW's but with maintaining a good and open heart. (Remember: head, hand *heart*)  Imho.  -  Betterness is relative.  Some types of conventional betterness might be based on how well an experience agrees with ones most cherished

Re: [MD] Questions for Marsha.

Marsha: Sorry there seems to be too many hidden assumptions left out of your post for me to make sense of it.  The only thing I might offer to negate the charge of nihilism is that static quality is not annihilated.  Static quality is conventionally real. [Ron] But it neglects the

Re: [MD] Questions for Marsha.

From LILA:  Quality was value.  Marsha says: 2.  Value judgements, like *right or wrong* and *better or worse* do not apply to Dynamic Quality. ... my statement that Dynamic Quality is always affirmative was not a wise statement, since it constitutes a limitation or partial definition of

Re: [MD] Psychopathic Philosophers?

[Arlo previously] Marsha is a 'child' in your analogy? [Dave] Oops, that's right within the static levels of MoQ all knowledge, all words, all communications are only analogies.  Child,child abuser are only analogies therefore child abuse under the MoQ never happens in reality. [Arlo] ??

Re: [MD] Psychopathic Philosophers?

dmb asked:    Can a psychopath be a good philosopher? David Thomas replied(Sarcasm snipped): As you can see from this little snippet would have been an arduous task to apply this theory to all of ZaMM and Lila. Probably it would be easier to take the fully texts and mark the appropriate

Re: [MD] Questions for Marsha.

Marsha:   I'm interested in what we can know and how can we know it.  Without dismissing the idea with some proclamation of 'absolute, amoral, cultural relativism,' what does it mean when Nagarjuna states that all truth is relative and conventional?  If Buddhism's conventional truth in some

Re: [MD] Questions for Marsha.

  Marsha: RMP has said that Truth is not supposed to be determined by social popularity.  So then, by what zero-point or specific standards are logical consistency and economy of explanation to be determined?  [Ron] You answered your own question with: But yes, it is all about what we

Re: [MD] Psychopathic Philosophers?

dmb said: I think it's an uncanny description of Marsha's attitude, don't you? DT replied: Honestly? I think trying to evaluate a serious biological condition on the basis of email list posts by even by someone trained and certified to practice psychology or psychiatry would be irresponsible.

Re: [MD] Meditation takes 'gumption'.

Marsha: Why do I so often mention mindfulness meditation and agrees with my experience?  Here is two simple paragraphs from 'Mindfulness in Plain English' that might explain my persistence: Vipassana is a form of mental training that will teach you to experience the world in an entirely new

Re: [MD] hard enlightenment

  Marsha had said: Here's that Buddhist story about meditation that is represented by the small, blank, polished, onyx tile I wear hanging at my neck.  A Buddhist monk was meditating when his master walked in. Master: Why are you meditating? Monk: Because I want to become a Buddha! The

Re: [MD] The Intellectual Level

  x-man, You want to pose as a moralist?  That's amusing.  Here's a quote you missed: There are so many kinds of problem people like Rigel around, he thought, but the ones who go posing as moralists are the worst. Cost-free morals. Full of great ways for others to improve without any

Re: [MD] The Intellectual Level

 [Ron]  They are beliefs and criticism, but they are based in Bob Pirsigs idea  that we can not only judge other people but other cultures based on their value of intellectual quality. we most certainly can morally judge people based on their intellectual values.   Eddo responds

Re: [MD] The Intellectual Level

, but we most certainly can morally judge people based on their intellectual values.    .. On Aug 25, 2013, at 8:59 AM, X Acto xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Ron had said to Ian: Notice Ian, Dave never said agreement is bland. He said you announced your agreement with one bland statement. He

Re: [MD] The Intellectual Level

Ron had said to Ian: Notice Ian, Dave never said agreement is bland. He said you announced your agreement with one bland statement. He specifically stated your statement was bland. dmb says: This isn't a very important point but it does speak to the need for us all to write and

Re: [MD] the disease, the cure, the volume of material

  Marsha: Are there still areas of inquiry and discovery, or should one blindly swallow dmb's argument of a volume of material, the disease and the cure; therefore he is right?  Ian asked a question that has not been properly addressed.    [Ron] There are still areas of discovery it just

Re: [MD] The Intellectual Level

Ian had said: To avoid the (unnecessary) mixing up, to avoid (unnecessarily) working the SOMism to death, let's disentangle any (low quality) narrow, GOF-SOMist-intellectual discourse from a wider (high quality, enlightened, extended) MoQ-ish-intellectual discourse - by expressing what more

Re: [MD] The Intellectual Level

Ian:    without any visible agreements, actual positions get ignored, perceived positions get misquoted (as straw men) and thrown back as misleading positions in ad-hominem arguments. (Half a dozen examples in this thread alone.)   [Ron points out] Notice Ian, how you are making an appeal to

[MD] Evasion

On Aug 9, 2013, at 11:09 AM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR ajb...@psu.edu wrote: Like Marsha, you seem to think that incoherence is a necessary 'step' to free oneself from the choking dogma of intellectual patterns. Marsha said: Provide proof that I ever made a statement that incoherence is a

Re: [MD] Mixed up, My Dear

Ian had said: Just to be absolutely clear: I don't say Context 2 is narrow SOM. I say some people take a too narrow SOM view of Context 2. [Ron] Exactly who would that be? Also Just to be absolutely clear: The whole meaning of context 2 is that narrow rigid assumptions are cast aside for

Re: [MD] Marsha My Dear

[Arlo previously] Rather, we get people who have latched onto this rather literally and are using it to justify two 'competing' views rather than understanding their symbiotic and synthetic co-occurence as, I think, both Pirsig and Northrop would've hoped. [djh] Do you honestly think Marsha

Re: [MD] Marsha My Dear

  Ian, I can appreciate your endeavors to appeal to everyone getting along, but, what I have learned about Quality is that people simply are NOT going to get along! the important aspect to concentrate on is HOW we dont get along. If we can argue our beliefs clearly and explain our reasons why we

Re: [MD] Marsha My Dear

I for one, am glad Marsha is atleast adhereing to some sort of Buddhist understanding where before she even rejected Buddhism for being male dominated.   I mean, she's a fukn contrarian for christ sake, she rejects stuff just because someone accepts it not for any intelligible reason but just to

Re: [MD] Marsha My Dear

Ant, I just spent most of my day digging a 2 ton lift jack out of 3 feet of mud  under interstate 95 on the east coast, in the rain.   Thnx for the chuckels   -R   From: Ant McWatt antmcw...@hotmail.co.uk To: moq discuss moq_disc...@moqtalk.org Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 7:15 PM Subject:

Re: [MD] Other Ways of Being Young

Ant, Thanks for that link, I enjoyed Masaryk,s style and appreciated how he took the reader on a journey of his own discovery. The idea of his Kantian-Jungian archetypes was interesting especially the form of the prime mover.   -Ron   .. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.

Re: [MD] The Two Contexts of the MOQ

David Harding quoted Robert Pirsig July 28th:   Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside definition, this means that a 'Metaphysics of Quality' is essentially a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity. (LILA, Chapter 5)  

Re: [MD] kill all intellectual patterns

[David] But can you not see how this is against the MOQ which differs from Zen in that the still values static patterns and the trail of evolution they create? [Marsha] I value static patterns, and I am not sure that Zen does not value static quality.  Doesn't Buddhism warn against a

Re: [MD] kill all intellectual patterns

[Marsha] It might be difficult for those who have not practiced mindful-awareness to imagine functioning without any accompanying linguistic narration [Arlo] To the contrary, I wish some people would go live their lives without any accompanying linguistic narration. Ron: You said it,   It

Re: [MD] The Two Contexts of the MOQ

Sorry guys, I forgot where it was all going and it makes little difference now anymore  it's probably not going to go anywhere productive. thank you for responding but lets just forget I said anything.   Thanx -Ron From: Ant McWatt antmcw...@hotmail.co.uk To: moq discuss moq_disc...@moqtalk.org

Re: [MD] The Two Contexts of the MOQ

Marsha:   If she had demonstrated a consistent non-attachment to static patterns (killed them all), she might have risen to that of a wise sage.  RMP: while sustaining biological and social patterns, follow dynamic quality [Ron comments:] Well, that was Lila's whole problem, attachment to

Re: [MD] The Two Contexts of the MOQ

Dmb, Ant, Yea, I really shouldnt post after a double shift. Lets see what was I on about.?..   Oh yea, The first question is aimed primarly at the specifics of pragmatic truths function within radical empiricism. Specifically  within the context of meaningful ideas I wondered if it consisted of

Re: [MD] The Two Contexts of the MOQ

Paul said to Dan: ... I said assimilating a mystic experience by which I mean something like, having temporarily left the mythos one should not see the shattering of intellectual patterns as some kind of permanent destruction of reality. [Paul previously]: I’m suggesting that the MOQ

Re: [MD] The Two Contexts of the MOQ

Dan comments: I offer this rather long quote in an effort to explain how I felt when you suggested I am saying that Robert Pirsig is buttering up the readers. I think it is as insulting being told I am pandering to my readers by making an effort to better my writings by offering them a firm

Re: [MD] The Two Contexts of the MOQ

Paul says to Dan: First off, my intention is never to insult or in any way disrespect you, or anyone here.  I apologise if I made you feel insulted. Dan Quotes ZMM: In class, the Professor of Philosophy, noting Phædrus' apparent good behavior and diligence, has decided he may not be such a

Re: [MD] DQ vs. Intellect?

Dan: As I said (repeated ad nauseum) to Harding, there is no enlightenment. It is only those who have yet to climb the mountain that the mountain exists. Once at the top, one can see there never was any mountain at all. Going back down into the valley the mountain exists once again but only

[MD] Correspondence and Pragmatic theories of truth

Wiki sez- Historically, most advocates of correspondence theories have been ontological realists; that is, they believe that there is a world external to the minds of all humans. This is in contrast to metaphysical idealists who hold that everything that exists is, in the end, just an idea in

Re: [MD] Is this quote philosophical?

[Marsha] I asked the question to hear the different replies that might be offered? Marsha: Judgement calls of how a text is 'artfully' or 'artlessly' deployed are based on the results of everyone's different history and current patterns of value.  You might call that 'contextual', or possibly

Re: [MD] DQ vs. Intellect?

Dan: As I said (repeated ad nauseum) to Harding, there is no enlightenment. It is only those who have yet to climb the mountain that the mountain exists. Once at the top, one can see there never was any mountain at all. Going back down into the valley the mountain exists once again but only as

Re: [MD] theories of truth and art

Marsha had said: The subject is intellectual static patterns of value.  You presented that intellectual patterns are defined as art.  If this is what you think, can you offer an explanation?  Within the definition of art there are many entries.  Does any one in particular appeal to

[MD] theories of truth and art

Marsha had said: The subject is intellectual static patterns of value.  You presented that intellectual patterns are defined as art.  If this is what you think, can you offer an explanation?  Within the definition of art there are many entries.  Does any one in particular appeal to you? 

Re: [MD] theories of truth

  Woman of Mars said: x-man, Your question: What does it mean to sustain social patterns when following DQ? Perhaps you think there is one right answer to the question, and you know that truth.  What is it?  [X-man replieth] Mostly its a criticism about how much of a sloppy reader you

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Marsha asserts what it means to sustain social patterns: xman, Maybe you'll understand this statement:  Always do your best. Ron sez: Right, excellence, art, ring a bell? .. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Khoo had said; Marsha said:  It is the West's over involvement with intellectual patterns that prevents having this experience This is an eureka moment for the discussion group. Something worthwhile to comment on. The actual evil is not in the concepts or objects or the patterns in themselves

Re: [MD] Art

Dmb quotes: The priest presents for consideration a compound of inherited forms [static patterns] with the expectation (or, at times, even requirement) that one should interpret and experience them in a certain authorized way, whereas the artist first has an experience [DQ] of his own, which

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Marsha sez to Dmb: Here's the truth... How does RMP state morality can best be served: RMP writes: While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served. Notice:  only perceived

Re: [MD] theories of truth

dmb said to djh: Your claim is contradictory nonsense. According to Pirsig and the English language, degeneracy is not good.  djh replied to dmb:  Anything static is mystically degenerate - but that mystic degeneracy is statically good. dmb says: Think about it for just a minute, David.

Re: [MD] theories of truth

dmb said to djh: Your claim is contradictory nonsense. According to Pirsig and the English language, degeneracy is not good.  djh replied to dmb:  Anything static is mystically degenerate - but that mystic degeneracy is statically good. dmb says: Think about it for just a minute, David.

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Djh says:  The MOQ expands rationality by allowing us to discuss *all* values not just intellectual values. Included as part of all values are even those undefined better values which create intellectual patterns to begin with.  From this Dynamic Quality perspective static quality is

Re: [MD] theories of truth

dmb says: The contradiction is both clear and epic. Where Pirsig says, the world is primarily a moral order and value is the fundamental ground-stuff of the world,  DJH says, All things are mystically degenerate. Marsha: This is much like the contradiction where RMP says Change is

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Marsha: An immoral action, like degeneracy, is when a lower level morality tries to take priority over a higher level morality.  The code of art is a higher level than inorganic, biological, social and intellectual.  You know this. [Ron sez] RIGHT!     And that code of art is that what is

Re: [MD] moral codes

Marsha quotes: There are so many kinds of problem people like Rigel around, he thought, but the ones who go posing as moralists are the worst. Cost-free morals. Full of great ways for others to improve without any expense to themselves. There's an ego thing in there, too. They use the

Re: [MD] theories of truth

To conclude Truth [singular](added by Marsha) connects with is which is is  [verb] 1.  3rd person singular present indicative of be. Be verb (used without object) 1. to exist or live 2. to take place; happen; occur: So Marsha is asserting that Truth is a singular experience in process.

Re: [MD] Independent reality?

  Jan-Anders said: In my view, MOQ  IS at the 5th level, because metaphysics is based above, or outside the intellectual level. dmb says: Metaphysics is above the intellectual level? Metaphysics is just a branch of philosophy. It's the area of philosophy that deals with the most basic

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Warwoman sez to Dmb: The automobile, the airplane and the bicycle do not translate into a legitimate replacement for 'a static intellectual pattern'.  The automobile, the airplane and the bicycle represent a straw man argument:   Ron sez: . Read carefully this time because you are doing the 

Re: [MD] theories of truth

djh responds to Dmb: I think you're both correct and incorrect here. You're correct that Mysticism and Intellectual quality do indeed work together.  But the key point here is that they work together by being mutually exclusive and in opposition! [Ron] So you criticize Dmb for being

Re: [MD] theories of truth

djh responds to Dmb: I think you're both correct and incorrect here. You're correct that Mysticism and Intellectual quality do indeed work together.  But the key point here is that they work together by being mutually exclusive and in opposition! [Ron] So you criticize Dmb for being a

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Ron (xacto) said: Dig this. The reason why they termed the Parmenidian one as fixed and eternal was that they realized change was conceptual. Zeno's paradoxes are supposed to illustrate this. Ergo that which is changeless does not perish and come to be, so it was deemed eternal. ALSO what is

Re: [MD] theories of truth

Subject: Re: [MD] theories of truth Strictly speaking, the creation of any metaphysics is an immoral act since it's a lower form of evolution, intellect, trying to devour a higher mystic one. The same thing that's wrong with philosophology when it tries to control and devour philosophy is

Re: [MD] D i a l e c t i c

Socrates favoured _truth_ as the highest value, proposing that it could be discovered through reason and logic in discussion: ergo, dialectic. Socrates valued rationality (appealing to logic, not emotion) as the proper means for persuasion, the discovery of truth, and the determinant for

Re: [MD] D i a l e c t i c

  dmb said: Pirsig favors pragmatic truth as a species of value, asserting that they (plural) are invented to serve human purposes. Pirsig values an expanded rationality (appealing to logic and the affective domain) and the art of rhetoric as the proper means of persuasion, excellence in

Re: [MD] D i a l e c t i c

Socrates favoured _truth_ as the highest value, proposing that it could be discovered through reason and logic in discussion: ergo, dialectic. Socrates valued rationality (appealing to logic, not emotion) as the proper means for persuasion, the discovery of truth, and the determinant for

[MD] Buddhist dialectic

Buddhism has developed sophisticated, and sometimes highly institutionalized traditions of dialectics during its long history. Nalanda University, and later the Gelugpa Buddhism of Tibet, are examples. The historical development and clarification of Buddhist doctrine and polemics, through

Re: [MD] D i a l e c t i c

 It is generally thought dialectics has become central to Continental philosophy, while it plays no part in Anglo-American philosophy. In other words, on the continent of Europe, dialectics has entered intellectual culture as what might be called a legitimate part of thought and philosophy,

Re: [MD] One Day We'll Wake Up

One day we will wake up and find that everything is perfect as it is. That the cage we feel trapped in is an illusion and we are already and always have been free. One day we will wake up and find that we squandered our lives struggeling against a giant that does not exist.  Ah to be content

Re: [MD] Misunderstandings are driven by what we value not by the logic we use.

djh responds to Dmb: You have misunderstood my argument dmb. By all means - feel free to discuss logical inconsistencies with those who value similar things to you and are happy to discuss them... All I'm saying is that when discussing something intellectual with someone who doesn't

[MD] D i a l e c t i c

djh responds: I disagree.  As mentioned to dmb - *huge* chunks of Lila (most of the book) - would never be written if we spend no time understanding folks values.  What people value - what's a good life - living a good life - that's the whole point of philosophy.    {Ron} We ARE talking

Re: [MD] Misunderstandings are driven by what we value not by the logic we use.

djh responds to Dmb: You have misunderstood my argument dmb. By all means - feel free to discuss logical inconsistencies with those who value similar things to you and are happy to discuss them... All I'm saying is that when discussing something intellectual with someone who doesn't value

Re: [MD] SOM the MOQ's four levels

Dan G said: Experience is pre-conceptual. That is why there is always a lag between experience and recognition. ...Experience and our conception of experience are never identical. Once we have pigeon-holed experience into categories it is no longer experience. It becomes a memory of

Re: [MD] Putting SOM back into the MOQ by excluding SQ, let's not do that say some of us

Hello Arlo, I'd like to preface again by establishing that I am using this occasion to sharpen rhetorical skills and hopefully wring a little clarity out of what we mean when contributers say that what makes Pragmatic truths verifyable in experience is their success and satisfaction in the

Re: [MD] Intellectual Discussion and Dialectic - Finding agreement, Quality and beauty in the world.

Dan: Forgive me for saying so, but you seem to be falling into a bit of redundancy here and that redundancy is leading you astray. Remember, ideas are patterns of value. Morals and quality are synonymous in the MOQ. I doubt anyone here only keeps an eye on logical consistency. But if a

Re: [MD] Concepts Reality

Dave, Great post,   I took that line as attempting to make an extension of the progression of the criticism, It automatically seemed like a weak point and you're explanation  has a pretty good reason as to why it seems that way to me. Thanks for clarifying that. I particularly enjoyed the

Re: [MD] Concepts Reality

Ron said: ... Bob and Jimmy are talkin bout the distinction while Fred's talkin reification. [AND]  Where Bob states simply that the discrepancy has value, Fred seems to cast a rather dour atmosphere in regards to the rendering of one from the many and doesn't really seem to value the

Re: [MD] philosophology

Marsha Quotes: I also have a concern of my own. This is the concern that philosophers, instead of coming to grips with the philosophy at hand, sometimes dismiss it by saying, “Oh he is saying the same as someone else,” or “someone else has said it much better.” This is the latter half of the

Re: [MD] philosophology

Marsha: Can you read?  The subject line says 'philosophology'.  Read again what Annotation 133 says about philosophology and try to understand RMP's words in that context.  Do you understand the word 'context'?        RMP: This kind of comparison is what I have meant by

Re: [MD] Concepts Reality

 Ron: Bob and Willy  are talkin bout the value of the distinction while Freds talkin reification. I think when we begin to compare them it is important to note the tradition of the philosophic  questions that they are responding to. As Willy pointed out in Pragmatism the question of the one and

Re: [MD] Is experience just DQ?

= On Sun. April 14, 2013 at 8:30 AM, X-Acto wrote: Keeping in mind that the individual originates from The common good as well. This is the tangle you face in your explanation.  One may not be without the other out of necessity. Ham: Fundamentally, everything originates from a source

Re: [MD] Indeterminate?

Marsha: How about It's all a ghost,  Isn't the law of non-contradiciton one of the laws of logic?  Ghosts and more ghosts.    Ron: What gives those ghosts meaning is their neccessity in the immediate now of experience. The law of non-contradiction is the first rule of meaning, you re either

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