Re: Reveal Codes
Andrew - I would like to take you up on your kind offer to send a copy of your RevealCodes3.odt. If you don't mind, I could add it to my notes about RevealCodes at http://audilab.bme.mcgill.ca/~funnell/swil_ooo.html#reveal; otherwise I would just keep it to play with when I have a chance. One of my planned projects for when I retire is to implement RevealCodes for LO/AOO :-) I just checked the handling of direct formatting. If I bold some text directly, it creates an 'automatic style' with an ad-hoc name, in my case 'T6': You're right that it tells you when a style (whether 'automatic' or not) starts and ends. For example, â á - Robert From: Andrew Pitonyak Sent: March 21, 2022 13:52 To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: Reveal Codes First, to identify a few problems with "reveal codes. One problem with "reveal" codes with respect to OpenOffice is related to the use of styles compared to hard coded attributes. I perform most formatting using a style, but it is difficult to understand whether a single character is bold because it was made that way using a style or by a hard coded attribute. Programatically, it is easy to traverse simple text and to recognize where things change. The hard part is understanding exactly why something changed. I do not remember off hand if it tells me when individual attributes change if the change is because of an applied style. Also from memory, I think that it will tell me when a style starts / ends, which makes removing an applied style tricky; something I have never tried programatically. I have certainly written macros that would dump this information, but not in a nice easy to see way. https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/FAQ/Writer/FormattingText/Does_OpenOffice.org_have_a_Reveal_Codes_functionality_similar_to_WordPerfect%3F https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62137 https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/User:TJFrazier/Reveal_Codes In 2004 (approximately), a macro was created by Ian Laurenson to roughly emulate some reveal codes functionality. On my current computer I have LibreOffice (not OpenOffice) installed and I was able to make it work with a few fixes. No idea if it works with the current version of AOO (Apache OpenOffice). If you email me off list, and ask for a copy of my latest Documents/OpenOffice/RevealCodes/Ianz/RevealCodes3.odt, I can send you a copy. You will probably be very unhappy with how it works. Also, it is not something that I use. I considered extending it, but there is always a question of available time. Andrew Pitonyak On Monday, March 21, 2022 10:15 EDT, Alan B wrote: There is no reveal codes in OpenOffice. Reveal Codes was a Wordperfect feature. The Word feature of the same name is activated by Shift+F1. The Word feature may go by the same name but is nothing like the Wordperfect feature because the structure of the files is different. If you have a line (or double line, or dashed line, or etc) across a page, check for borders in the paragraph style both above the line and below the line. I've had that happen to me before and frustrated the heck out of me before I finally figured it out. Still happens sometimes. Don't know what I'm doing to make it happen but have at least figured out how to get rid of it. On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:06 PM Jennie Bickerton wrote: > Hi Steve, > I am having problems in a document with paragraph numbers and > sub-paragraph entries ( 1. and then A. etc.) and also a double line across > the page that I have no idea how it got there. I know in Microsoft there > was an "F#" that would open Reveal Codes so that I could then go in and > remove whatever indent or code I had mistakenly inserted. > Is there any reveal codes in Open Office? > Thank you so much! > Jennie Bickerton -- Alan Boba CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes
First, to identify a few problems with "reveal codes. One problem with "reveal" codes with respect to OpenOffice is related to the use of styles compared to hard coded attributes. I perform most formatting using a style, but it is difficult to understand whether a single character is bold because it was made that way using a style or by a hard coded attribute. Programatically, it is easy to traverse simple text and to recognize where things change. The hard part is understanding exactly why something changed. I do not remember off hand if it tells me when individual attributes change if the change is because of an applied style. Also from memory, I think that it will tell me when a style starts / ends, which makes removing an applied style tricky; something I have never tried programatically. I have certainly written macros that would dump this information, but not in a nice easy to see way. https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/FAQ/Writer/FormattingText/Does_OpenOffice.org_have_a_Reveal_Codes_functionality_similar_to_WordPerfect%3F https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62137 https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/User:TJFrazier/Reveal_Codes In 2004 (approximately), a macro was created by Ian Laurenson to roughly emulate some reveal codes functionality. On my current computer I have LibreOffice (not OpenOffice) installed and I was able to make it work with a few fixes. No idea if it works with the current version of AOO (Apache OpenOffice). If you email me off list, and ask for a copy of my latest Documents/OpenOffice/RevealCodes/Ianz/RevealCodes3.odt, I can send you a copy. You will probably be very unhappy with how it works. Also, it is not something that I use. I considered extending it, but there is always a question of available time. Andrew Pitonyak On Monday, March 21, 2022 10:15 EDT, Alan B wrote: There is no reveal codes in OpenOffice. Reveal Codes was a Wordperfect feature. The Word feature of the same name is activated by Shift+F1. The Word feature may go by the same name but is nothing like the Wordperfect feature because the structure of the files is different. If you have a line (or double line, or dashed line, or etc) across a page, check for borders in the paragraph style both above the line and below the line. I've had that happen to me before and frustrated the heck out of me before I finally figured it out. Still happens sometimes. Don't know what I'm doing to make it happen but have at least figured out how to get rid of it. On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:06 PM Jennie Bickerton wrote: > Hi Steve, > I am having problems in a document with paragraph numbers and > sub-paragraph entries ( 1. and then A. etc.) and also a double line across > the page that I have no idea how it got there. I know in Microsoft there > was an "F#" that would open Reveal Codes so that I could then go in and > remove whatever indent or code I had mistakenly inserted. > Is there any reveal codes in Open Office? > Thank you so much! > Jennie Bickerton -- Alan Boba CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011
Re: Reveal Codes
There is no reveal codes in OpenOffice. Reveal Codes was a Wordperfect feature. The Word feature of the same name is activated by Shift+F1. The Word feature may go by the same name but is nothing like the Wordperfect feature because the structure of the files is different. If you have a line (or double line, or dashed line, or etc) across a page, check for borders in the paragraph style both above the line and below the line. I've had that happen to me before and frustrated the heck out of me before I finally figured it out. Still happens sometimes. Don't know what I'm doing to make it happen but have at least figured out how to get rid of it. On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:06 PM Jennie Bickerton wrote: > Hi Steve, > I am having problems in a document with paragraph numbers and > sub-paragraph entries ( 1. and then A. etc.) and also a double line across > the page that I have no idea how it got there. I know in Microsoft there > was an "F#" that would open Reveal Codes so that I could then go in and > remove whatever indent or code I had mistakenly inserted. > Is there any reveal codes in Open Office? > Thank you so much! > Jennie Bickerton -- Alan Boba CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011
Reveal Codes
Hi Steve, I am having problems in a document with paragraph numbers and sub-paragraph entries ( 1. and then A. etc.) and also a double line across the page that I have no idea how it got there. I know in Microsoft there was an "F#" that would open Reveal Codes so that I could then go in and remove whatever indent or code I had mistakenly inserted. Is there any reveal codes in Open Office? Thank you so much! Jennie Bickerton
Re: reveal codes
On 2017-08-10 7:14, Rory O'Farrell wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Robert Funnell wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote: > Let me clarify. The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc.. I think that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc.. You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the actual internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going on. To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This would be just as useful in OO and LO. - Robert If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates the current formatting style at the cursor position. /View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and paragraph/line ends. I tested the reveal codes macro years ago. last time I tried it, I had to make changes to the underlying code to make it work. I don't remember exactly what it showed, or, how it showed it. Also, it did not entirely work as the system worked in WP, not that I entirely remember how that worked, but, here are some issues with reveal codes in LO / AOO. The first issue is related to styles. So, if you want to know why your text is bold, it may be because there is a style making it so and it may be because someone applied direct formatting. So, coming out of the gate, there is always the question of what does one show with reveal codes? Do you show the styles or just the formatting? For sure this is useful functionality. I don't even remember exactly what WP did. Could I start "BOLD" and then not turn it off? This is not possible the way that AOO is written. I think that the bottom line is that "sure, it would be great", it is possible to do, the created extension provides (does it still work?) some approximation, the developers have not yet considered it sufficiently interesting to work on it (and I think it would require significant time to integrate it). I think that the best path forward would be to open a feature request and then if sufficient people vote for it or express interest, it might be done. Andrew Pitonyak
Re: reveal codes
As far as I can tell, neither of these things helps what I'm referring to. As an example: let's say you apply the Emphasis character style to a sequence of characters, and then later want to add some following characters that don't have that style. If you just position your cursor after the last styled character, the text you add will also be styled. You need to position your cursor after the first _unstyled_ character that follows, insert your new text, and then back up and delete that first unstyled (and now unwanted) character. With RevealCodes turned on in WordPerfect, you would just position your cursor after the end-of-style indicator and start entering unstyled text. well, the only difference is that you may NOT be able to position the cursor outside of the formatting mark. something that reveals the codes would clearly show that this is the case. So, what you would need to do is to place the cursor as close as you can get, and then manually set / change the style. The only functionality that you are missing is things such as: 1. An ability to force the cursor past a formatting mark or style, which may not be possible to do with AOO. No, really. 2. The ability to delete a formatting mark from within "reveal codes" window. I think you could do that in WP anyway. Both of these could be worked around in a native version of the capability, but, for now, that is not available, and, I do not expect it to be available anytime soon since I have not heard that anyone was working on it. So, the question is, (1) how can you request that it be added [open a request] and (2) how can you use what is currently available to solve your existing "problem" to accomplish your goal. The way that I usually work around this is by placing the cursor where I want it and start typing. if it starts working in Bold, and I don't want bold, then I highlight it and make it not bold (as one example). Would it be faster to press the "show me codes" key, move the cursor, then type? Maybe. I don't think that we have the problem with empty tags in AOO that we had in WP, so I don't think that you need to use it to remove empty tags. So, you might want to find that reveal codes macro (I think that someone had a link to it) and give that a try, see about opening a feature request, and, if you are unsure how to work around a specific behavior, describe it. It will not be the same, even if someone can carefully defines how it should work in AOO (because it cannot be exactly the same because of styles). Best of luck andy
Re: reveal codes
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Rory O'Farrell wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Robert Funnell wrote: ... To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This would be just as useful in OO and LO. If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates the current formatting style at the cursor position. /View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and paragraph/line ends. As far as I can tell, neither of these things helps what I'm referring to. As an example: let's say you apply the Emphasis character style to a sequence of characters, and then later want to add some following characters that don't have that style. If you just position your cursor after the last styled character, the text you add will also be styled. You need to position your cursor after the first _unstyled_ character that follows, insert your new text, and then back up and delete that first unstyled (and now unwanted) character. With RevealCodes turned on in WordPerfect, you would just position your cursor after the end-of-style indicator and start entering unstyled text. - Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Robert Funnell wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote: > > > Let me clarify. The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags > > with bracketed text, XML code, etc.. I think that the viewing option > > should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows > > what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things > > like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc.. > > You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the actual > internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going on. > > To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing > the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor > before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This > would be just as useful in OO and LO. > > - Robert If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates the current formatting style at the cursor position. /View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and paragraph/line ends. -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote: Let me clarify. The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc.. I think that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc.. You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the actual internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going on. To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This would be just as useful in OO and LO. - Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
hi. did you test libreoffice for this purpose? and i recommend that peist the content of your file in for example notepad++ to see the codes. God bless you! On 8/10/17, Stephen Nichols wrote: > Let me clarify. The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags > with bracketed text, XML code, etc.. I think that the viewing option should > more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what > formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, > typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc.. > > Stephen Nichols > > > On Aug 9, 2017, at 8:35 PM, Robert Funnell > wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote: > >> The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles >> properly there is nothing to reveal. > > Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people. > > And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or after an > invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that the possibility > (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the macros originally > developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page mentioned in an earlier post > in this thread). > > - Robert > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > -- we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation. holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107. in the very authentic narration is: imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation. best website for studying islamic book in different languages al-islam.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
Let me clarify. The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc.. I think that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc.. Stephen Nichols On Aug 9, 2017, at 8:35 PM, Robert Funnell wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote: > The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles > properly there is nothing to reveal. Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people. And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or after an invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that the possibility (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the macros originally developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page mentioned in an earlier post in this thread). - Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 08/09/2017 07:48 PM, Stephen Nichols wrote: > 2) I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP. > But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature? What problem do you think "Reveal Codes" solves. I mean something other the fact that the developers of WP couldn't write bug free code. (Reveal Codes was a quick fix to enable users to fix the presentation markup errors that Wp put into their documents, due to bad coding in their software.) Robert wrote: >Many people have said that it's impossible. A couple of people have worked on macros that demonstrate that it is possible Not impossible, but crafting either internal code, or an extension to display "Reveal Codes" per se, is probably a waste of programmer resources. Johnny wrote: >I think someone built an add-on for this many years ago, but I'm not sure I used an add-on with OOo 1.1.3-ZA Write, and a different add-on for OOo 1.1.3 Calc. IIRC, Ian's macro didn't provide editing functionality. ### If one configures the stylist side-bar, and formatting tool bar appropriately, one can get virtually all of the functionality of Reveal Codes. jonathon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote: The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles properly there is nothing to reveal. Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people. And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or after an invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that the possibility (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the macros originally developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page mentioned in an earlier post in this thread). - Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 10/08/17 5:48 AM, Stephen Nichols wrote: I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a great product. 1) I hate Microsoft. 2) I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP. It is the most powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting issues. The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles properly there is nothing to reveal. I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version. I find OpenOffice a very suitable replacement. But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature? Stephen Nichols Aldie, Virginia - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
2017-08-09 21:48 GMT+02:00 Stephen Nichols : > I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s > a great product. > 1) I hate Microsoft. > 2) I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP. It is the most > powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting > issues. > > I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs > and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version. I find OpenOffice a very > suitable replacement. But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar > feature? > I think someone built an add-on for this many years ago, but I'm not sure if it still works. Or maybe it was made for LibreOffice, I don't remember. Apache OpenOffice is built around styles, kind of. This has its obvious advantages, especially when you want consistent documents and it's very easy to make huge changes very quickly, for instance in a few clicks change the font size for all headers in hundreds of pages at once. I use styles all the time and I never needed ”reveal codes” and I'm pretty sure I'll never need them. Anyway, if that add-on can't be found or if it doesn't work with newer versions of Apache OpenOffice, and if you don't want to adapt to styles, then I would say that Apache OpenOffice is not for you. Pick something else. This discussion has been up quite a few times and it seems obvious to me that this feature will never ever be implemented in Apache OpenOffice, nor in LibreOffice. At least that's what I think. Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg > Stephen Nichols > Aldie, Virginia > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > >
Re: reveal codes
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote: I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a great product. 1) I hate Microsoft. 2) I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP. It is the most powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting issues. I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version. I find OpenOffice a very suitable replacement. But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature? Stephen Nichols Aldie, Virginia You may be interested in looking at bug 3395 from 2002: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 Many people have said that it's impossible. A couple of people have worked on macros that demonstrate that it is possible (cf. my old discussion at http://audilab.bme.mcgill.ca/~funnell/swil_ooo.html#reveal). - Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:48:40 -0400 Stephen Nichols wrote: > I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a > great product. > 1) I hate Microsoft. > 2) I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP. It is the most > powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting > issues. > > I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs > and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version. I find OpenOffice a very > suitable replacement. But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature? > > Stephen Nichols > Aldie, Virginia Because the formatting codes are not simple one/two byte codes -they are XML strings. You need to learn how to use D Styles and may find it helpful to turn on /View /Non printing characters. If you wish to see the XML formatting codes, unzip an OpenOffice file (which is a zipped archive) and examine content.xml with a plain text or an XML editor Be advised, bad editing of this file can damage the OO file, perhaps irreparably. -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
reveal codes
I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a great product. 1) I hate Microsoft. 2) I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP. It is the most powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting issues. I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version. I find OpenOffice a very suitable replacement. But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature? Stephen Nichols Aldie, Virginia - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Simple advice on how to get Reveal Codes inplemented please
On 05/24/2014 07:02 AM, DaveMainwaring wrote: Some of the threads are so long I don't have the energy to follow all the stuff :_) How do I vote, and support this initiative (or any other) ? This is where you vote for that particular issue https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 You must have an account to vote, but it is easy to create one. If you have trouble creating the account, be sure to post back and say so. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Simple advice on how to get Reveal Codes inplemented please
> the Reveal Codes feature to be most useful in finding oddball > things that may have come in with an imported file, and to debug minor > mishaps that are > not obvious from just looking at the text. One use of Reveal Codes will > tell you whether a tab or a set of spaces is used in a text. Also, to spot > double spaces, if you don't Some of the threads are so long I don't have the energy to follow all the stuff :_) How do I vote, and support this initiative (or any other) ? -- My Avocation: Building "Knowledge Networks" where participants share, learn and grow Writer Jane Ayres: "If I'm not learning, I'm not living." "Speak softly and carry a large microphone" Bill Blinn -
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
yes, voting is how you officially indicate your interest On 05/23/2014 03:39 AM, Helen wrote: I'd love the reveal codes feature -- didn't know there was a vote until I ran across this. On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak < and...@pitonyak.org> wrote: On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote: So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts. That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution) to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time / energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that saying "copy from WP" is sufficient. Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation. https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen. Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature. WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes towards it. https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395 Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code. Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is a very helpful tool. Jack -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
I'd love the reveal codes feature -- didn't know there was a vote until I ran across this. On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak < and...@pitonyak.org> wrote: > > On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote: > >> So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires >> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and >> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show >> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is >> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts. >> > > That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the > need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to > implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a > knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution) > to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed > software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time / > energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature > must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general > usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that > saying "copy from WP" is sufficient. > > Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the > hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the > CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation. > > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 > > So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen. > Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature. > WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to > put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little > spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know > that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a > handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I > lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other > requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes > towards it. > > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395 > > >> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code. >> Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is >> a very helpful tool. >> >> Jack >> > > -- > Andrew Pitonyak > My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt > Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php > > > --- > List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
On 19 May 2014, at 09:38, 許哲崇 wrote: > If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code, > what is the problem? lack of a current wordperfect and why should we pay for it if we are committed to OO? jt --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
On 19 May 2014, at 03:34, mt wrote: > Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the > "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). > I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding > that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find > useful. > > As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two > ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So > if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who > do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the > program. Ah, but WordPress creates HTML pages - open one in a text editor and all is revealed [a knowledge of html is a prerequisite]. I am not amongst those who are demanding the 'reveal codes' feature - at least now, but I do think that an essential part of the development process IS providing useful tutorials or guides in addition to reference manuals. Arcane reference manuals went out in the late 1960's! jt - digital curmudgeon since the mid 1950's. --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote: If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code, what is the problem? No problem at all... :-) The potential issue is that loading in a different editor will cause slightly different things to be displayed (at least that is my experience based on different formats, especially if there is something tricky or complicated about the text). -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
All the more reason why the open source community operating under the Apache umbrella should add a "Reveal Codes" analog to OO. On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Doug wrote: > > On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote: > >> If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code, >> what is the problem? >> >> >> >> The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux. > (WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest > Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.) > > --doug > > > > --- > List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > >
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote: If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code, what is the problem? The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux. (WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.) --doug --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code, what is the problem? 2014-05-19 20:17 GMT+08:00 Andrew Douglas Pitonyak : > > On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote: > >> So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires >> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and >> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show >> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is >> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts. >> > > That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the > need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to > implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a > knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution) > to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed > software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time / > energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature > must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general > usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that > saying "copy from WP" is sufficient. > > Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the > hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the > CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation. > > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 > > So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen. > Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature. > WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to > put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little > spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know > that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a > handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I > lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other > requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes > towards it. > > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395 > > > >> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code. >> Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is >> a very helpful tool. >> >> Jack >> > > -- > Andrew Pitonyak > My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt > Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php > > > > --- > List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > >
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote: So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts. That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution) to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time / energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that saying "copy from WP" is sufficient. Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation. https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen. Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature. WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes towards it. https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395 Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code. Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is a very helpful tool. Jack -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Allow me to add my 'two-pence worth’ to this important discussion. Seems to me that it has been well-explained earlier that a ‘reveal codes’-like solution (apparently as in WordPerfect) is not readily achievable within OO, as the formatting controls of OO don’t lend themselves to such a solution (either technically, or in a way that would enable users to achieve what they want). IMHO, it’s clear from this correspondence that getting formats right can be a difficult task for many users, both casual and not (I regard myself as mid-point, but it can be difficult and frustrating - I don’t knowingly use styles). I particularly find nested lists (very difficult to achieve consistently to what I want (although I’m a big fan of OO generally). I recommend the approach to the OO development team to start with a requirement to improve the formatting handling (particularly lists) - maybe that simple requirement can be generally shared by most contributors - without mandating any particular solution. That should give the developers the licence to examine any type of solution that will improve this apparently contentious and difficult area. Best to all, Steve On 19 May 2014, at 11:11, japples wrote: > So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires > casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and > possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show > consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is > cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts. > > Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code. > Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is a > very helpful tool. > > Jack > > > mt wrote: >> Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to criticise >> styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful. >> >> There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, when >> troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or section >> options, or when special (manual) character formatting has been applied to >> styled paragraphs: this is where "reveal codes" can come in handy. Also, >> typically, "Reveal codes" was used by someone other than the original >> author... funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main >> reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" back when WordPerfect was the >> standard! >> >> Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the >> "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). >> I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding >> that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find >> useful. >> >> As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two >> ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So >> if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who >> do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the >> program. >> >> Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can "take the >> user's perspective" is to listen to end users themselves. Ideally... without >> expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) accusing them to not put >> in the necessary time/effort to learn how to use the program. >> >> Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end (& dumb? >> :-) users. >> >> marina >> --- >> MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8 >> @martadiello >> >> >> >> --- >> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org >> >> >> >> - >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14 >> >> >> Best Regards, Steve Caine --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts. Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code. Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is a very helpful tool. Jack mt wrote: Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful. There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, when troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or section options, or when special (manual) character formatting has been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where "reveal codes" can come in handy. Also, typically, "Reveal codes" was used by someone other than the original author... funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" back when WordPerfect was the standard! Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find useful. As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the program. Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can "take the user's perspective" is to listen to end users themselves. Ideally... without expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) accusing them to not put in the necessary time/effort to learn how to use the program. Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end (& dumb? :-) users. marina --- MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8 @martadiello --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful. There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, when troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or section options, or when special (manual) character formatting has been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where "reveal codes" can come in handy. Also, typically, "Reveal codes" was used by someone other than the original author... funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" back when WordPerfect was the standard! Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find useful. As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the program. Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can "take the user's perspective" is to listen to end users themselves. Ideally... without expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) accusing them to not put in the necessary time/effort to learn how to use the program. Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end (& dumb? :-) users. marina --- MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8 @martadiello --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query
On 05/17/2014 04:35 PM, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: 2014-05-16 20:38 GMT+02:00 japples : Does a list exist for OO users to vote for proposed future functionalities? I would like to vote for Reveal Codes. Reveal Codes is a very useful tool. It works independently of the "Style rules" and does not require the user to take time to search "style rules" then create or edit (causes changes in other documents?) Logically, it seems the more "style rules" the less efficient OO Writer. Guess you could say, reveal codes is like lifting the hood of a vehicle to change spark plugs. While "style rules" feature is similar to re-configuring the vehicle to operate bypassing spark plugs (takes more time and effort by the user). Thanks for your patience - Jack I think I remember some very intense discussions about this a couple of years ago, it was almost like some kind of war or something… Some people said it will never happen since there is nothing to reveal (Apache OpenOffice just doesn't work like that). Still someone managed to write an extension that does this, I think. I guess it fakes it somehow. Some people also think that it's not a good habit using them, and that styles is the way to go and so on. Some people also says that it's a bad habit to use a lot of character styles in text. So it seems like a lot of people are against the idea of reveal codes while others want them. I don't know. I have no use for them personally, so I don't care, but… well… Johnny Rosenberg It has been a long time since I tested the macro, so I don't remember what it showed and what it did not. If you really want to design this, then, it should likely not just be a duplicate of Word Perfect functionality. For example, what if My paragraph style sets character weight (that means how "BOLD" is it). Then, I manually set a bold amount, and, finally, I apply a character style that sets the character weight differently. Now, understand that if I do this in a macro, it is not as simple as bold is on or off, I can set a numeric value for it for all three of these things. This level of subtlety does not exist in the WP reveal codes stuff, it is merely on / off. This could be very confusing if I have the three bold settings so that they are all marginally bold (like say 90% bold, 100% bold, and 110% bold). My head hurts now! I assume that this feature (which would be cool to have) has likely not been seriously attempted for integration since a real implementation would require you to deal with these issues. Also, the macro version of the implementation is far from a working implementation. Think of it as a way to troll the code and then show an XML like version of the text in a dialog with certain change types shown; if my memory is correct. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query
2014-05-16 20:38 GMT+02:00 japples : > Does a list exist for OO users to vote for proposed future > functionalities? I would like to vote for Reveal Codes. > > Reveal Codes is a very useful tool. It works independently of the "Style > rules" and does not require the user to take time to search "style rules" > then create or edit (causes changes in other documents?) > > Logically, it seems the more "style rules" the less efficient OO Writer. > > Guess you could say, reveal codes is like lifting the hood of a vehicle to > change spark plugs. While "style rules" feature is similar to > re-configuring the vehicle to operate bypassing spark plugs (takes more > time and effort by the user). > > Thanks for your patience - > Jack > > > I think I remember some very intense discussions about this a couple of years ago, it was almost like some kind of war or something… Some people said it will never happen since there is nothing to reveal (Apache OpenOffice just doesn't work like that). Still someone managed to write an extension that does this, I think. I guess it fakes it somehow. Some people also think that it's not a good habit using them, and that styles is the way to go and so on. Some people also says that it's a bad habit to use a lot of character styles in text. So it seems like a lot of people are against the idea of reveal codes while others want them. I don't know. I have no use for them personally, so I don't care, but… well… Johnny Rosenberg
Re: Reveal Codes Query
On 16/05/2014 japples wrote: Does a list exist for OO users to vote for proposed future functionalities? I would like to vote for Reveal Codes. The link I've already sent https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 is all we have, but it has this functionality. You can vote, you can comment (but no need to do so unless you have something important to add to the discussion) and you can see the existing discussion and work in progress. Regards, Andrea. --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Reveal Codes Query
Does a list exist for OO users to vote for proposed future functionalities? I would like to vote for Reveal Codes. Reveal Codes is a very useful tool. It works independently of the "Style rules" and does not require the user to take time to search "style rules" then create or edit (causes changes in other documents?) Logically, it seems the more "style rules" the less efficient OO Writer. Guess you could say, reveal codes is like lifting the hood of a vehicle to change spark plugs. While "style rules" feature is similar to re-configuring the vehicle to operate bypassing spark plugs (takes more time and effort by the user). Thanks for your patience - Jack
Re: reveal codes
On 01/21/2013 01:47 PM, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi Eric, Eric Fenster schrieb: Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does. Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where necessary or place a cursor. Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I don't know, but Open Office should. OpenOffice has the feature to search for attributes and formats and mark the text parts accordingly. Have you ever use it? It is very powerful. But one shortcoming is, that it looses the highlighting when you click in the text to edit something. Perhaps it would help to make the marking persistent until the user turns it off explicitly or searches again? Kind regards Regina One comment about the shortcoming: Once you click in the text, you can click Find again to highlight the next occurrence. Below the vertical scroll bar are two double arrows. Once you have defined a search, you can use these to search forward or backward. --Dan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
Hi Eric, Eric Fenster schrieb: Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does. Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where necessary or place a cursor. Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I don't know, but Open Office should. OpenOffice has the feature to search for attributes and formats and mark the text parts accordingly. Have you ever use it? It is very powerful. But one shortcoming is, that it looses the highlighting when you click in the text to edit something. Perhaps it would help to make the marking persistent until the user turns it off explicitly or searches again? Kind regards Regina - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
> document with 100 formatting errors. A correct version of the document must > be available It's not so much about "errors" as the ease of making changes when revising one's text. People who write exactly what their final version should be the first time may have to deal with "errors." The rest of us have to edit and revise to achieve the final result. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
Gosh, I wish we could display a screen shot here of what we're talking about! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
Hello Dan, On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Dan Lewis wrote: > If you miss the way WP works as a text editor, why don't you use WP? Because for maybe a decade and a half now, Microsoft Word has been the gold standard in word processing applications. That's why WP can be saved into a Word-compatible version and not vice versa. Not to mention OpenOffice/LibreOffice can be saved into a Word-compatible version, never WordPerfect compatible. WordPerfect's heyday died before the 20th century did. Even in government agencies and law offices - WP's traditional bailiwick - they also use MS Word so they can work with outsiders. Bottom line: If we want specific WP features, like Reveal Codes (a real attraction to me too), we're going to need to duplicate them within our MS-Word compatible applications. Going back to WP would be madness for most of us. Cheers, Jeff Deutsch Speaker & Life Coach A SPLINT - ASPies LInking with NTs http://www.asplint.com Your mood can affect how you read this e-mail. Please read it with a smile. (http://tonecheck.com) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: reveal codes
There is no invalid XML involved in the situations being discussed. The XML of the saved document is correct. Also, OpenOffice does not work on the XML directly -- it uses an internal model of the document and imports to that and exports from that when accessing files.] - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarr...@iol.ie] Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 09:06 To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: reveal codes A short response to many of the points raised in this thread, to quote which points would be tedious and not very relevant to this posting. Would it be possible to reach a broad equivalent of "reveal codes" by incorporating an XML analysis screen.facility, which would look at the underlying XML code and highlight what it felt were departures from correct syntax? Such an analysis would be useful for irregular formatting in Write, much as the "reveal codes" advocates require, but perhaps more importantly for the many cases of broken .ODF files, usually Calc, where an error message indicates an (undefined) error at row,column. Several such cases occur every month, which can often be cured by deleteing a bad formatting sequence at XML level. -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 01/21/2013 11:29 AM, Eric Fenster wrote: Try /View /Non printing characters. This allows one to exactly position the cursor. That's totally different. It shows paragraph breaks and spaces, not formatting codes. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org What difference does it make? LO does not have formatting codes. Why insist that it should? If you miss the way WP works as a text editor, why don't you use WP? How much work would it take to develop them? Is this really worth the expense, time, etc. to do it? What are you willing to do to help? Why not learn how to use LO better? There seems to be several people who would like formatting codes. Why don't this group get together and build an extension that will do what you want it to do? Show us that it can be done. Yes, I am disappointed with this continued discussion of why format codes are better than styles. Of course it is very likely that some information about what has to be done when using formatting codes is not included. And yes, some information is also left out when mentioning what has to be done when using styles. A real test is to take a 1000 word text document with 100 formatting errors. A correct version of the document must be available so that the people making the corrections know what the final formatting should be. List how to correct the errors using formatting codes. Then list how to correct the errors using styles. Then compare how many steps each one of these took. How much time did it take to do each one? It is easy to make statements about either one, and this has been done recently as well as when there was an extended discussion about this same issue. Very little if anything has been said that was not said one time and usually many times then. --Dan
Re: reveal codes
A short response to many of the points raised in this thread, to quote which points would be tedious and not very relevant to this posting. Would it be possible to reach a broad equivalent of "reveal codes" by incorporating an XML analysis screen.facility, which would look at the underlying XML code and highlight what it felt were departures from correct syntax? Such an analysis would be useful for irregular formatting in Write, much as the "reveal codes" advocates require, but perhaps more importantly for the many cases of broken .ODF files, usually Calc, where an error message indicates an (undefined) error at row,column. Several such cases occur every month, which can often be cured by deleteing a bad formatting sequence at XML level. -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: reveal codes
@Brian, Yes I think we are like-minded on this. To the extent that there is provision for alteration, it has to be provided in a safe manner and not by manipulating the document representation directly. I don't see a particular problem with a Reveal/Review Styling allowing certain safe alterations, although it increases the complexity of an implementation. Of course, a Reveal/Review implementation has to be available first before one can use it to remedy unintended or blocked situations. (This is not the same as hacking the XML, which is not in memory anyhow in the case of OpenOffice, where one could break the structure, although there are XML editors that require a schema to be honored.) I'm satisfied that there is a case for a feature that provides a safe equivalent of what Reveal Codes provides in WordPerfect. I don't know how to get past that point, nor do I know anyone who is able to do so and is also willing to do so. - Dennis ANOTHER CASE THAT WORKS One of my favorites that does reveal structure and format coding is Microsoft FrontPage 2003 (the last version now that it is abandon-ware). I can put the cursor anywhere and a little ribbon strip at the top of the WYSIWYG text window will show the linear nesting of structure that covers that position. I can also click on one of those and the text covered by that structure will be high-lighted. I can also ask to edit a particular structure's attributes (e.g., a font setting) or even remove a given structure from the hierarchy (such as the span of a font setting, but not its content). These are all benign operations -- the result is always valid. (I could also switch to the raw HTML and damage the document any way I wanted, although FrontPage will repair it in some inscrutable fashion if I mess up.) Where styling comes into this would have to do with CSS, including in-line CSS properties. I've not explored that particular case, although I know CSS styles can be viewed/reviewed. OpenOffice and ODF are more complex in this respect, and I have no idea how to provide a counterpart in OpenOffice. I can imagine having an equivalent feature in an ODF-based editor, but it would probably be one that is designed for that from the beginning. (I can imagine considerable value to such a provision during development and troubleshooting of an implementation, and it should be part of the product.) -Original Message- From: Brian Barker [mailto:b.m.bar...@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 00:34 To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: RE: reveal codes At 16:42 20/01/2013 -0800, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: >I agree that an equivalent means of inspecting what formatting >features apply at a point in the text, and where they come from, >would be extremely valuable in trouble-shooting these style-based >documents. Being able to see the span of the application of a >format feature (or of an applied style) would also be very >useful. This is particularly important, it seems to me, because the >created structures and the styles they introduce are not >invertible. It is difficult to see where they are and to reverse >their effects by making more formatting operations and it is >conceivable that there are bugs in all of that as well. > >To that extent, I tend to disagree with Brian Barker. It should be >possible to manipulate the styles in rational ways, similar to what >is available with the "Styles and Formatting" pop-out. This would >not be by getting under the hood and pulling wires, but having a >tool that accomplishes an available manipulation in a valid way. For what it's worth, I don't see where we are disagreeing. Don't we both agree that (1) a clearer way of seeing exactly why a document is behaving in a particular way is desirable, but that (2) users modifications should continue to be carried out through a proper interface, not by trying to tinker with non-existent "tags"? Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
> Try /View /Non printing characters. This allows one to exactly position the > cursor. That's totally different. It shows paragraph breaks and spaces, not formatting codes. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 06:13:50 -0800 (PST) Eric Fenster wrote: > > using it to position the cursor either inside or outside a particular > > formatting code. > > YES, positioning the cursor was very helpful. > > Also, finding where certain functions were turned on/off. Try /View /Non printing characters. This allows one to exactly position the cursor. -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
> using it to position the cursor either inside or outside a particular > formatting code. YES, positioning the cursor was very helpful. Also, finding where certain functions were turned on/off. An example. I open a new Open Office doc and paste the contents of a mail message. The cursor at the beginning of the doc says I'm in Times New Roman (default), but my text is in Arial. I change font window to Times New Roman, but nothing happens. Subsequent text still Arial. If this were WP, I would see the Arial code following my Times New Roman code and would just click on it to delete. The text would change to what I want. To do this in Open Office, I have to select all the text I want to change, then change the font window. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 22:31:42 -0500, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: I don't believe that the Styles box includes automatic styles which are created (and not visibly named) as the result of in-line actions. No new styles are created, but the text is formatted the way you want it. Think of the style as a template where there may be exceptions. If you find you use the exceptions often and they are consistent, you may want to consider creating a new style based on the original. -- Rod Lockwood - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 01/21/2013 03:41 AM, Brian Barker wrote: At 20:50 20/01/2013 -0500, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote: The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes. Not sure I agree. Perhaps I didn't make clear that I was responding to the previous contributor's mention of "a single troubling code" and taking it literally: one code that shouldn't be there, not a matching pair of codes. It was for these rogue single codes that Word Perfect's "reveal codes" was particularly useful. Point taken :-) I don't remember if I ever used Reveal Codes for this kind of corruption in WordPerfect, but I do remember often using it to position the cursor either inside or outside a particular formatting code. This is the use for which I would like to see something comparable (Reveal Styles) in OO. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 01/21/2013 03:41 AM, Brian Barker wrote: At 20:50 20/01/2013 -0500, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote: The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes. Not sure I agree. Perhaps I didn't make clear that I was responding to the previous contributor's mention of "a single troubling code" and taking it literally: one code that shouldn't be there, not a matching pair of codes. It was for these rogue single codes that Word Perfect's "reveal codes" was particularly useful. Point taken :-) -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
At 10:57 20/01/2013 -0800, Eric Fenster wrote: For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats. Click immediately after the page break and press Backspace: even easier! And all without opening "reveal codes" and looking for the (non-existent) tag. (This assumes that the page break was introduced as local formatting, of course. Usually, if there is any problem, it won't have been.) Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
At 14:45 20/01/2013 -0500, Doug McGarrett wrote: Why must you insist on making the writer go thru hoops to fix something when Reveal Codes can do it for him quickly and easily? Just let us have the capability--if *you* want to go thru those hoops, then go ahead--I don't want to have to! That's not what I suggest at all. I agree that a clearer display of formatting would be desirable. Call that "reveal codes" if you like, but remember that the codes don't actually exist. But if OpenOffice let you make changes by deleting an invented code or two, other users of the higher-level interfaces currently supplied could no longer rely on their integrity. It's not so much that I'm insisting on your doing things my way as asking that you should not be allowed to achieve a change that breaks everyone else's way. And it really isn't going through hoops to modify any document the proper way: like most things, the proper way is, in the long term, the easy way. The difficulty, if any, is being able to see what the problem is. Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
At 20:50 20/01/2013 -0500, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote: The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes. Not sure I agree. Perhaps I didn't make clear that I was responding to the previous contributor's mention of "a single troubling code" and taking it literally: one code that shouldn't be there, not a matching pair of codes. It was for these rogue single codes that Word Perfect's "reveal codes" was particularly useful. Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
At 10:51 20/01/2013 -0800, Eric Fenster wrote: But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation. It wasn't authoritarian at all: I'm sorry if you thought it was. I wasn't telling anyone that they shouldn't add or remove formatting: of course not. I was merely pointing out that asking for a clearer display of document structure was one thing (and a good one), but that allowing changes by means of editing such a display (exactly as Word Perfect allows) would be impossible without upsetting the way OpenOffice works. If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating? Well, first - that there are no such codes. There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal. You are limiting your discussion to local formatting. If OpenOffice did that, there would be less disagreement. Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: reveal codes
At 16:42 20/01/2013 -0800, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: I agree that an equivalent means of inspecting what formatting features apply at a point in the text, and where they come from, would be extremely valuable in trouble-shooting these style-based documents. Being able to see the span of the application of a format feature (or of an applied style) would also be very useful. This is particularly important, it seems to me, because the created structures and the styles they introduce are not invertible. It is difficult to see where they are and to reverse their effects by making more formatting operations and it is conceivable that there are bugs in all of that as well. To that extent, I tend to disagree with Brian Barker. It should be possible to manipulate the styles in rational ways, similar to what is available with the "Styles and Formatting" pop-out. This would not be by getting under the hood and pulling wires, but having a tool that accomplishes an available manipulation in a valid way. For what it's worth, I don't see where we are disagreeing. Don't we both agree that (1) a clearer way of seeing exactly why a document is behaving in a particular way is desirable, but that (2) users modifications should continue to be carried out through a proper interface, not by trying to tinker with non-existent "tags"? Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
At 12:32 20/01/2013 -0800, Eric Fenster wrote: Is this discussion happening among people on different planets? Yes, almost certainly! Fans of local formatting will see no problem in tinkering with the document at a low level, whereas fans of styles (and even those who are not but appreciate that this is how OpenOffice works) will see the impossibility of providing this facility. Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
> That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on the "Bold" icon. It's not that simple. In Open Office you have to be careful about selecting spaces AFTER a word. If you select a word to make bold and happen to include the space after the word, then come back when editing your text and remove the bold or remove the word but fail to take account of what you originally did to the space following the word, the bold code is still there, invisible. You start typing your replacement word or additional text and it is bold, unintentionally. With reveal codes, you see and can remove what has become a stray, unwanted bold code. Again, reveal codes is voluntary, in a separate window, it doesn't clutter your basic text but gives much fuller and easier control over it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: reveal codes
I'm assuming that the text in the original message, below, is from Martin. There is a structure being created, even though all you see is your selection, your clicking of the bold button (or use of Format | Character to do the same), and the selected text of one or more characters being rendered in boldface. If it is all in the same paragraph and just text, a structural element is being created. (Otherwise, multiple adjacent structures might be created and they are independent thereafter.) There will be an automatically-defined style that causes the bolding. If you select the text again and remove the boldface, there may or may not be some residual structure and a different style in its place. This is mostly invisible except when it isn't. Then it becomes difficult to overcome some weird effect that you can't overcome because of this invisible structuring and styling and some sort of conflict that results. You can't even get your hands on what it is. Some sort of Reveal Styling would allow you to remedy that. For good or ill, this is the only way what you did can be represented in the native ODF Format of OpenOffice-lineage software, including Apache OpenOffice. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Martin Groenescheij [mailto:mar...@groenescheij.com] Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 20:28 To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: reveal codes [ ... ] > I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation. > > If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal > type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" > to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold > code and deleting it, what great law am I violating? That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on the "Bold" icon. I don't need a reveal code for that simple task. > > There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal. > [ ... ] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 21/01/2013 5:51 AM, Eric Fenster wrote: I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP. First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control. You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it. This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text. Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option. But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation. If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating? That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on the "Bold" icon. I don't need a reveal code for that simple task. There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 21/01/2013 6:09 AM, James Plante wrote:
Or just stick your cursor in front of the paragraph following the offending
page break and press delete.
But there wouldn't BE a hard page break present if page styles had been used correctly to
begin with. Writer's use of styles assures consistency throughout the whole document. But
learning to "use styles correctly" is no easy job. I've had quite a few
wrestling matches with it over that kind of thing myself. But overall, it's worth the
fight to make it work.
I agree that learning to "use styles correctly" it the way to go, but
the real issue is that you receive documents from other sources / users
who don't understand styles or use other editors. Hence learning to "use
styles correctly" isn't always the solution.
Anything's easy once you learn how. ('Till then, though, you can invent some
new profanity. :-)
Jim Plante
On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Eric Fenster wrote:
just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting.
Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the
cursor on a code and DEL
For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added
during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats.
-
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RE: reveal codes
I don't believe that the Styles box includes automatic styles which are created (and not visibly named) as the result of in-line actions. There may be other indications, but not that. I'm certain that a feature to reveal all the styling that applies somewhere would be useful. I don't think that's the barrier so much. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rod Lockwood [mailto:rodlockw...@provide.net] Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 19:15 To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: reveal codes [ ... ] Also, you can see what the formatting is at any given point by looking at the apply styles box, if you have it visible on your toolbar. You are then able to fix the problem by highlighting the area and applying/changing the style. If that doesn’t work, then you need to change the style, create a modification of the style, or override the style with a manual change. I do not understand what is meant by “at that level”. It is not as if you are changing the programming code. You are just using the options already available in the toolbar. Another way to find formatting problems is to call up the styles box, have it show the applied styles, and watch what happens when you move your cursor over an area of text. The box will highlight the style that is being used at the cursor. However, as I recall, I had a problem where the old style was still lingering at the end of the paragraph unseen. It should have been removed, but since it was not showing, I left it and it caused problems later on. Seems to me this is a feature that could be useful, or at least a different approach to solving a problem that some people are used to having and that others may find that they prefer it as well. Sort of like the old autosave feature I would like as an option, but some people think is inferior to the current autorecovery system most office suites use today. Besides, if a feature does not work out, you can always remove it in a later version, but at least you give people an option and you give the feature a chance to prove itself. -- Rod Lockwood - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
First off, you would not need to clear the formatting of the entire document. You are able to highlight just the problem area and clear the formatting there only. Also, you can see what the formatting is at any given point by looking at the apply styles box, if you have it visible on your toolbar. You are then able to fix the problem by highlighting the area and applying/changing the style. If that doesn’t work, then you need to change the style, create a modification of the style, or override the style with a manual change. I do not understand what is meant by “at that level”. It is not as if you are changing the programming code. You are just using the options already available in the toolbar. Another way to find formatting problems is to call up the styles box, have it show the applied styles, and watch what happens when you move your cursor over an area of text. The box will highlight the style that is being used at the cursor. However, as I recall, I had a problem where the old style was still lingering at the end of the paragraph unseen. It should have been removed, but since it was not showing, I left it and it caused problems later on. Seems to me this is a feature that could be useful, or at least a different approach to solving a problem that some people are used to having and that others may find that they prefer it as well. Sort of like the old autosave feature I would like as an option, but some people think is inferior to the current autorecovery system most office suites use today. Besides, if a feature does not work out, you can always remove it in a later version, but at least you give people an option and you give the feature a chance to prove itself. -- Rod Lockwood - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 01/20/2013 01:57 PM, Eric Fenster wrote: just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting. Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the cursor on a code and DEL I assume that this only works for hard formatting, and not for style related formatting. For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats. Yeah, you are correct with that one... Many of these, however, you can already reveal and show in the document. (it is in the formatting aids section). Never thought about it that way. I suppose that there is already partial support for this and that would likely be the hook to use. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote: The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes. Not sure I agree. If a font is set in AOO, it might be from a paragraph style, character style, direct formatting, or I guess maybe even font mapping. Now, if it is set by a style, which style? For example, if you see that the character style is "_computer_literal", is that the style that set the font? Perhaps not. It might be the parent style to _computer_literal. If things are difficult to understand in the document, I am more likely to blame the user well, unless you are reading one of my documents; then for sure the problem is the reader not the writer :-) -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal codes?
On 01/20/2013 02:54 PM, Eric Fenster wrote: Reveal codes for Word Perfect were designed to control formatting. Styles were designed to control formatting. In fact, WP also has STYLES. It's not about the same thing. How does WP deal with formatting applied using a style? I have not used or seen that feature in so many years, that I just don't remember how that works. If you have one style that contains 12 formatting changes, it would be an interesting problem to then deal with that format change without considering styles. I know nothing about styles in WP, are they similar to those used in OO? How many types (page, paragraph, character, outline, graph...)? -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal codes?
On 01/20/2013 10:50 AM, Eric Fenster wrote: What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? I expect low since I don't see much call for it. Those who use and love it, however, really really want it. Have not tried this in a long time, and it is a far cry from what you desire, but, go here: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/hillview/OOo/ I think that RevealCodes3.sxw (http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/hillview/OOo/RevealCodes3.sxw) is the latest version. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: reveal codes
Eric, and all, (This list does not preserve document attachments. Feel free to add yours to the others already at the enhancement request on Bugzilla: <https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395>.) The reality is that unless someone with the skills to take on creation of some sort of Reveal Styling or whatever it would be steps up and learns enough about the OpenOffice code to do it, debating the desirability of it is not going anywhere. It takes willing volunteer(s) with sufficient mastery of the software. Perhaps if someone (or a group) offered a significant bounty, that might work although I think that's usually a bad idea. - Dennis WHY STYLES CONTINUE TO BE BROUGHT UP IN THIS CONTEXT the reason for bringing up styles is that there are only styles and nothing but styles (and structures) in OpenOffice and in the ODF format. OpenOffice doesn't control formatting by setting codes in the text stream. The codes that are thought of, in the case of WordPerfect, are simply not there in ODF and the way OpenOffice operates. There are no in-line formatting codes comparable to ones used in WordPerfect and some other formats. The only thing in-line is the name of a style as an attribute of a structural element (whether a span, a paragraph, or one of the many things that includes/includes-in a paragraph). Although there are in-line actions in the UI, such as Format Character, bold, underline, etc., these all are implemented by creation of structural elements and styles referenced from them. From then on, it is essentially all styles. (There is no shift-in/shift-out of formatting in the runs of text.) There are some special codes (e.g., to force multiple spaces, to tab, force a hard line break, and some other markers) that are unrelated to formatting over one-or-more characters in the text. Because style mentions can be nested along with the structure, and there are also search hierarchies among the styles for where a particular formatting feature is obtained, the ODF/OpenOffice document model makes it difficult to portray what was simple for WordPerfect. I agree that an equivalent means of inspecting what formatting features apply at a point in the text, and where they come from, would be extremely valuable in trouble-shooting these style-based documents. Being able to see the span of the application of a format feature (or of an applied style) would also be very useful. This is particularly important, it seems to me, because the created structures and the styles they introduce are not invertible. It is difficult to see where they are and to reverse their effects by making more formatting operations and it is conceivable that there are bugs in all of that as well. To that extent, I tend to disagree with Brian Barker. It should be possible to manipulate the styles in rational ways, similar to what is available with the "Styles and Formatting" pop-out. This would not be by getting under the hood and pulling wires, but having a tool that accomplishes an available manipulation in a valid way. The reality is that unless someone with the skills to take on creation of some sort of Reveal Styling or whatever it would be steps up and learns enough about the OpenOffice code to do it, debating the desirability of it is not going anywhere. It takes willing volunteer(s) with sufficient mastery of the software. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Eric Fenster [mailto:eric...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:52 To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: reveal codes I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP. First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control. You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it. This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text. Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option. > But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; > instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to > solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation. If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating? There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal. ---
Re: reveal codes
> while low-level tags are a 'dirty' path-- which is a nightmare for a person sticking to styles and structure. Is this discussion happening among people on different planets? Nothing about deleting a BOLD tag while editing is sabotaging styles or is even relevant to styles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
Well stated Doug. Thanks Thank you, Frank Dillingham -Original Message- From: Doug Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 14:49:49 To: Reply-To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: reveal codes On 01/20/2013 01:51 PM, Eric Fenster wrote: > I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with > the Reveal Codes function in WP. > > First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and > off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the > screen is under complete control. > > You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another > -- IF you want it. > > This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which > are all or nothing and litter the entire text. > > Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite > happily alongside the reveal codes option. > >> But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; >> instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to >> solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. > I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation. > > If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal > type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" > to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold > code and deleting it, what great law am I violating? > > There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal. > > > +1 --doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal codes?
On 01/20/2013 02:54 PM, Eric Fenster wrote: Reveal codes for Word Perfect were designed to control formatting. Styles were designed to control formatting. In fact, WP also has STYLES. It's not about the same thing. While we're at it: The other thing WP can do (Ctrl-W) is insert all sorts of characters that are not on the keyboard, and many are not attainable by the Compose key either. I think there are 10 screens worth of characters and symbols, each one having some 40 or so available. At some point, MS Word actually copied this verbatim, Ctrl-W and all, but then they took it out--maybe the WP people sued them. That must have been about 1990. So I don't know if OO can put that feature in, or if WP would sue them. But it sure is handy sometimes. If you OO devs are reading this, please consider adding both Reveal Codes and Ctrl-W. --doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 19:46:18, Doug wrote: > Why must you insist on making the writer go thru hoops to fix something > when Reveal Codes can do it for him quickly and easily? Just let us have > the capability--if *you* want to go thru those > hoops, then go ahead--I don't want to have to! formatting through styles is a 'clean' way, while low-level tags are a 'dirty' path-- which is a nightmare for a person sticking to styles and structure. these're simply two incompatible ways of seeing things, and the philosophy of oo is likely to be the 'styles' one. however, you're always welcome to open any oo document as a zip archive and view--or even edit--the low-level picture with all tags included within content.xml. there were cases when i was about to do that, desperate to fix some particular problem by usual gui means, but in the end i always managed to find a more conventional way of fixing things. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
If attachments work here, there will be a screen shot of WP with the Reveal Codes window open. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 01/20/2013 02:15 PM, Eric Fenster wrote: It's up to X5 now, and relatively affordable, I looked for it a couple hours ago. It was up to X6, impossible to buy without the entire suite and the cost was $230. There were times when the price was very low. I have WP 9, and it's pretty unstable. I just looked in Google. Walmart has the home and school edition or WP Office X6 for $96, and the Standard edition for $136. www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=WordPerfect&ResuldtDisplayType=1&adid=220130832152&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=b&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=18458881347&wl4= --doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal codes?
> Reveal codes for Word Perfect were designed to control formatting. Styles > were designed to control formatting. In fact, WP also has STYLES. It's not about the same thing. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 01/20/2013 01:51 PM, Eric Fenster wrote: I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP. First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control. You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it. This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text. Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option. But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation. If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating? There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal. +1 --doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal codes?
On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Robert Funnell wrote:
At https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 you can see some
of the history of this request. I would love to see it but I don't
know if it will ever happen.
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Eric Fenster wrote:
What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone
as it is. The feature really helps control formatting
Reveal codes for Word Perfect were designed to control
formatting. Styles were designed to control formatting. They are two
different ways to do accomplish the same thing. Some obviously like to
use one, and others like to use the other.
--Dan
Re: reveal codes
On 01/20/2013 12:45 PM, Brian Barker wrote: At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote: I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it. I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words! If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple way to discover this. (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are Writer's or mine!) But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. Brian Barker /snip/ Why must you insist on making the writer go thru hoops to fix something when Reveal Codes can do it for him quickly and easily? Just let us have the capability--if *you* want to go thru those hoops, then go ahead--I don't want to have to! --doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
> It's up to X5 now, and relatively affordable, I looked for it a couple hours ago. It was up to X6, impossible to buy without the entire suite and the cost was $230. There were times when the price was very low. I have WP 9, and it's pretty unstable. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On 01/20/2013 11:10 AM, Helen wrote: I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code. On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Rory O'Farrell wrote: On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST) Eric Fenster wrote: What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting. /snip/ WordPerfect is still around. It's up to X5 now, and relatively affordable, I believe--I've been upgrading mine thru the years, and I still use it when I want to do any serious writing. Nothing beats it, especially MS Word. I never saw it crash, in all the years I've used it. Unfortunately, there is no Linux version. (I know there once was, but it won't install on a modern system.) --doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
Or just stick your cursor in front of the paragraph following the offending
page break and press delete.
But there wouldn't BE a hard page break present if page styles had been used
correctly to begin with. Writer's use of styles assures consistency throughout
the whole document. But learning to "use styles correctly" is no easy job. I've
had quite a few wrestling matches with it over that kind of thing myself. But
overall, it's worth the fight to make it work.
Anything's easy once you learn how. ('Till then, though, you can invent some
new profanity. :-)
Jim Plante
On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Eric Fenster wrote:
>> just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting.
>
> Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the
> cursor on a code and DEL
>
> For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been
> added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc
> reformats.
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
-
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For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 1:45 PM, James Plante wrote: > If the document looks wrong, and you can't find out why, then just select > "default formatting" to clear all formatting. Then reapply the correct > format. Two mouse-clicks, no waiting. > > I did try that, it failed to resolve the problem also. > Jim Plante > > On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Brian Barker > wrote: > > > At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote: > >> I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant > something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is > not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your > document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element > that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy. Press > Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it. > > > > I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words! > > > > If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the > formatting element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple way to > discover this. (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are > Writer's or mine!) But users must not be allowed to make changes at that > level; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem > is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. > > > > Brian Barker > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > -- Alan Boba CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011
Re: reveal codes
> just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting. Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the cursor on a code and DEL For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP. First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control. You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it. This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text. Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option. > But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; > instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to > solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation. If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating? There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
If the document looks wrong, and you can't find out why, then just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting. Then reapply the correct format. Two mouse-clicks, no waiting. Jim Plante On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Brian Barker wrote: > At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote: >> I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant >> something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is >> not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your >> document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element >> that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal >> Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it. > > I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words! > > If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting > element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple way to discover this. > (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are Writer's or > mine!) But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level; instead, > they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it > where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. > > Brian Barker > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote: I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it. I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words! If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple way to discover this. (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are Writer's or mine!) But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure. Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it. On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote: > At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote: > >> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote: >> >>> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? >>> >>> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as >>> it is. The feature really helps control formatting. >>> >> >> I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for >> many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of >> Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and >> delete a single troubling code. >> > > The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program > is faulty. > -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse11.4
Re: reveal codes
At 12:21 20/01/2013 -0500, Alan Boba wrote: On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote: At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote: On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote: What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting. I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code. The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes. My 2¢, I've run across some troubling documents with formatting that seemed impossible to manage. (Could post sample if its desirable). In those few rare cases much frustration and time could have been saved with a reveal codes feature. I agree. As Dennis Hamilton said, "ability to reveal the styling that applies at any given place in the text would be very handy in trouble-shooting a document." But the user must *not* be allowed to tinker with formatting at this level, instead being required to make the changes in the right pace - which will now have become apparent. My recollection of Wordperfect history is reveal codes was a workaround added to allow users to correct format bugs that early versions of the program had. That's interesting. I didn't know this, but it makes complete sense. Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote: > At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote: > >> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote: >> >>> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? >>> >>> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as >>> it is. The feature really helps control formatting. >>> >> >> I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for >> many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of >> Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and >> delete a single troubling code. >> > > The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program > is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that > this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single > troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them > and introduce mistakes. > > My 2¢, I've run across some troubling documents with formatting that seemed impossible to manage. (Could post sample if its desirable). In those few rare cases much frustration and time could have been saved with a reveal codes feature. In the situations I experienced no amount of un/formatting copy paste of desired text or application of styles would eliminate a border that seemed to be associated with a paragraph but wouldn't be eliminated. The "final solution" was rewrite and reformat a third of the document in a new document and copy paste the 2/3 of the document not affected by the format bug into the new document. My recollection of Wordperfect history is reveal codes was a workaround added to allow users to correct format bugs that early versions of the program had. Certainly AOO has some of its own format bugs. Perhaps its better to give users the ability to correct bugs by tinkering directly with the formatting codes then to make them wait for bug fixes.
RE: reveal codes
This conversation has been going on since at least 2002. This bug report (enhancement request) has extensive commentary: <https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395>. (After getting a taste for the initial discussion, it might be useful to read the extensive comments from newest, at the end, back toward the older ones.) In the past there have been plug-ins to reveal styling in a way that accomplishes some of what Word Perfect Reveal Codes does. There does not seem to have been any active work on that in recent times. In direct response to the question, I would say that the chance is slim. Many of us can talk about what would work and how complex the problem is, but no one with mastery of the format and the OpenOffice-lineage implementation has raised their hand to actually do something. (I hesitate to think about the internationalization and accessibility problems that add to this.) Also, however it works, it will be style-centric because that's the ODF and OpenOffice model. I completely agree that ability to reveal the styling that applies at any given place in the text would be very handy in trouble-shooting a document. There's no assurance that anything like that will be done in the predictable future. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarr...@iol.ie] Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 08:06 To: users@openoffice.apache.org Cc: Eric Fenster Subject: Re: reveal codes On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST) Eric Fenster wrote: > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? > > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it > is. The feature really helps control formatting. > Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks. -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 08:27:19 -0800 (PST) Eric Fenster wrote: > Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does. > > Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where languages > change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where necessary or place a > cursor. Bold and Italics should best be applied as Character Styles (strong emphasis and emphasis, respectively); Foreign language insrtions could be character style Quoation. As OpenOffice is a WYSIWYG editor, they show up on screen where they start and stop. On the en-Forum there is a useful listing of the predefined styles http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=48530 > > Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using Word > Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I don't know, > but Open Office should. This seems to me to be dinosaur mentality. I once wrote a macro processor to strip formatting codes from Wordstar and print a book to an unsupported output device. I haven't had to do that since 1988, thanks to WYSIWYG. > > --- On Sun, 1/20/13, Rory O'Farrell wrote: > > > From: Rory O'Farrell > > Subject: Re: reveal codes > > To: users@openoffice.apache.org > > Cc: "Eric Fenster" > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2013, 6:06 AM > > On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 > > (PST) > > Eric Fenster > > wrote: > > > > > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la > > Word Perfect? > > > > > > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, > > as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control > > formatting. > > > > > Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for > > this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to > > reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks. > > -- > > Rory O'Farrell > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote: On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote: What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting. I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code. The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes. Any word processor needs a simple way of displaying the structure of a document, so that the user can easily see why it is how it is, but that does not have to be in the form of tags before and after any item; in fact, there are better ways. I'm not sure that OpenOffice Writer lives up to this requirement, in fact - or perhaps I haven't learned enough about how to use it? No: styles do not replace the need to be able to see how a document works, but they may preclude the user making low-level changes as you wish to do. Incidentally, it once was a well-known fact in programming circles that people brought up on low-level approaches find it difficult to transfer to higher-level ways of thinking. Persevere, and you will like the ways of Writer! Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal codes?
At https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 you can see some of the history of this request. I would love to see it but I don't know if it will ever happen. On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Eric Fenster wrote: What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does. Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where necessary or place a cursor. Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I don't know, but Open Office should. --- On Sun, 1/20/13, Rory O'Farrell wrote: > From: Rory O'Farrell > Subject: Re: reveal codes > To: users@openoffice.apache.org > Cc: "Eric Fenster" > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2013, 6:06 AM > On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 > (PST) > Eric Fenster > wrote: > > > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la > Word Perfect? > > > > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, > as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control > formatting. > > > Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for > this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to > reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks. > -- > Rory O'Farrell > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: reveal codes
I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code. On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Rory O'Farrell wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST) > Eric Fenster wrote: > > > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? > > > > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as > it is. The feature really helps control formatting. > > > Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for this. Also useful is > /View /Nonprinting characters, to reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph > breaks. > -- > Rory O'Farrell > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org > > -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse11.4
Re: reveal codes
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST) Eric Fenster wrote: > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect? > > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it > is. The feature really helps control formatting. > Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks. -- Rory O'Farrell - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
