[WSG] Digitising services for audio cassettes

[Andrew Ivin]

Hi all,

I hope that this request is not (too) off-topic.
I am trying to track down a service that will digitise the content of audio
cassettes, for eventual web publication.

Can anyone recommend a good service, preferably Australian based?


Thanks very much,


-- 
Andrew
andrew.i...@gmail.com
www.twitter.com/aivin


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Re: [WSG] Mobile sites

[Andrew Harris]

yep, plenty of division ;-)

...but while Sheldon is correct that responsive design can cater quite
well to the most popular mobile devices, there are still a heap out
there that don't recognise media queries or any of the other building
blocks of responsive design. In some parts of the world these more
basic handests dominate internet traffic. If you're targeting the
affluent, western middle class, then you'll probably do alright, but
there are plenty of countries where more basic handsets still reign.

Your specific question, however, was about Accessibility and
Standards. While Standards can be perfectly catered for by a
responsive design, I'm not so sure about Accessibility. Certainly, the
technical aspects of Accessibility can, but there's a wooly area of
Accessibility regarding perceivability that sites can run foul of if
the text and interactions aren't built specifically for mobile. The
most common problem is simply too much text, but there are also issues
around context and mobility that can be better catered for by a
specifically designed mobile site. Probably the best example of this
is a bank or an airline - it's well worth creating a specific site in
their case, because a 'mobile' user quite likely has different needs
and priorities to the desktop user.

It's been said before, but it's more relevant than ever: Know your audience.

It's definitely not for everyone, but if your audience is large, and
your content complex, I think it's worth taking a tiered approach - a
small, dedicated mobile site for the top handful of suitable
interactions; responsive design for the vast majority of adaptable
content; alternative fallback versions for 'difficult' content. In
fact, there's a tier above the dedicated site - the stand alone app -
but that's another argument altogether :-)

And while I've been rabbiting on writing this email Enid has come back
and made a similar point far more economically than I.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


On 16 May 2012 13:12, Doc2626  wrote:
> Grant, I think it's likely that you'll find a lot of division on this
> question. But I'll go ahead and offer my own opinion.
>
> I think it's an unnecessary expense and expenditure of energy to build a
> redundant site simply to suit mobile devices. There is a very workable
> solution using HTML5+CSS3, where a single site design can display quite
> satisfactorily on anything down to a 320px iPhone. Accessibility and
> usability needn't suffer in the process. If properly implemented, the user
> experience can maintain quality across all platforms.
>
> Additionally, if you're not enthusiastic about HTML5+CSS3, you can
> accomplish the same thing using XHTML+RDFa. In fact, since RDFa presently
> enjoys a bit more adoption than HTML5, the SEO benefits can be even greater.
>
> If you're interested, I recently posted a very brief explanation of the
> HTML5+CSS3 technique and will soon be posting a similar item on the RDFa
> option.
>
> Sheldon Campbell
>
> From: grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 7:43 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Mobile sites
>
> Hello,
>
> I was wondering whether having a dedicated mobile site represents an
> improvement with regard to accessibility and standards, or whether it is
> acceptable to have a single site that is adaptable to different screen
> widths (e.g. by means of CSS media queries). Of course, setting up a
> separate mobile site requires additional work and therefore expense.
>
> I would be grateful for comments.
>
> Thank you and regards,
>
> Grant Bailey
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Re: [WSG] Matthew J Robinson is out of the office.

[Andrew Boyd]

Matthew,

reporting that I may have received this email in error, and confirming
that I will delete it. I'm not sure that I have made any copies, but
this is a gmail account, and you never know what those google guys are
up to, really.

Hope you're enjoying going tropo (troppo?).

Best regards, Andrew

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:09 AM,   wrote:
>
> I will be out of the office starting  31/10/2011 and will not return until
> 09/11/2011.
>
> I will respond to your message when I return. I have gone tropo! Please
> send any urgent requests to Content Services
>
>
> The information contained in this email and its attachments may be 
> confidential.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by return 
> email,
> delete this email and destroy any copy.
>
> Any advice contained in this email has been prepared without taking into
> account your objectives, financial situation or needs. Before acting on any
> advice in this email, National Australia Bank Limited (NAB) recommends that
> you consider whether it is appropriate for your circumstances.
> If this email contains reference to any financial products, NAB recommends
> you consider the Product Disclosure Statement (PDS) or other disclosure
> document available from NAB, before making any decisions regarding any
> products.
>
> If this email contains any promotional content that you do not wish to 
> receive,
> please reply to the original sender and write "Don't email promotional
> material" in the subject.
>
>
>
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>



-- 
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Andrew Boyd
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss


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[WSG] accessibility statements... what are they worth?

[Andrew Harris]

Hi all,
I recently had some problems with the Myki website (I like to use the
keyboard to navigate - they don't make it easy!), which prompted me to
visit the site's accessibility page.
http://www.myki.com.au/Home/Accessibility/Accessibility/default.aspx

There, they make a claim about their efforts to reach WCAG AA
compliance. Ever pedantic, I ran a few checks over the site, and found
many errors that would indicate that this simply isn't so. In fact
only one of the five pages I tested actually passed!

Does it have to wait for someone to bring an action against them, or
is there some other sort of trigger that can be used to prompt them to
action? After all, this isn't just some business selling widgets, it's
a public transport ticketing system!

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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Re: [WSG] accessibilty: avoid radio buttons?

[Andrew Boyd]

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 9:14 AM, tee  wrote:
> I am building a site that must meet wcag 2.0 compliant. A web form has radio 
> buttons option, and according to afb.org:
>
> Radio buttons are not supported consistently by all versions of browsers, 
> screen readers, and combinations. A correctly labeled and tagged set of radio 
> buttons is a very difficult control for users of screen-reading technology. 
> If a "choose only one" situation is called for, a select menu is preferable.
>
> Is this a sound advice?
>
> Thanks!
>
> tee

Tee,

does it work with a keyboard only? Can you operate it with a screen
reader like NVDA with your eyes closed? There's a whole lot more to
code-level conformance than those two things, and a whole lot more to
WCAG 2.0 conformance than code-level conformance, but if you get those
two things right then you've made a brilliant start.

Best regards, Andrew

-- 
---
Andrew Boyd
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility Testing

[Andrew Boyd]

There's a range of code level checker options available as add ons for FF, and 
some web based options. 

Andrew Boyd faci...@gmail.com
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss


On 25/06/2011, at 8:36 AM, Jim Croft  wrote:

> The Visionaustralia accessibility toolbar looks interesting but only works on 
> Windows and IE5 and above. This could hardly be described as a 'web srandards 
> compliant' application.
> 
> Has anything been done that is platform independent or for Mac or Linux?
> 
> Jim
> 
> [Mobile]
> 
> On 25/06/2011 4:32 AM, "Doug Burt"  wrote:
> > Hey Gang,
> > 
> > I just downloaded the visonaustralia.org toolbar offered there, seems to 
> > work great and caught a batch of errors I thought were gone after using 
> > another validation program. Neat find Chad, thanks for passing it along 
> > it's 
> > a great resource...
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Doug Burt
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > 
> > On Behalf Of Chad Kelly
> > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 12:40 PM
> > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility Testing
> > 
> > Hi
> > Your best bet would be to look at the tools provided by Vision Australia
> > 
> > visionaustralia.org under accessible solutions.
> > They have a free toolbar you can download.
> > I am also looking at providing web accessibility testing services as a
> > part of the services offered by CPK Web Services. Would anyone be
> > interested in that kind of a service?
> > 
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility Testing

[Andrew Boyd]

Hi,

It's worth looking at what W3C has to say - see 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/Overview.html - but it depends what your goals are. 
Do you want to pick up as many code-level issues as possible or undertake a 
conformance check in accordance with the WCAG 2.0 standard?

Cheers, Andrew

Andrew Boyd faci...@gmail.com
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss


On 25/06/2011, at 2:15 AM, "Spellacy, Michael"  wrote:

> Hi WSG Friends!
> 
> The company I work for is considering dropping WatchFire for testing
> because of the price. I'm really concerned about not being able to test
> code against specific accessibility guidelines like WCAG 1.0 or 2.0. Do
> any of you know of any cheaper (or free) applications that do just as
> good a job?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any recommendations you may have!
> 
> Regards,
> Spell 
> 
> Michael Spellacy 
> Lead User Interface Developer
> TMP Worldwide Advertising & Communications, LLC
> 125 Broad Street, 10th Floor
> New York, NY 10004
> www.tmp.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Site test?

[Andrew Maben]

Looks good on my Touch, except the blue on blue nav is a bit hard to  
read. The transtions look great!


Andrew

Sent from my iPod

On May 21, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Telford Computer Doctor > wrote:



Good morning/afternoon/evening all,

First post here, so go easy ;-)

Just in the process of designing a website for a client, just  
wondering whether iPad, iPhone, mobile users could give me some  
feedback as to the jQuery used - whether it works basically.


http://www.telfordcomputerdoctor.co.uk/lt

Only the homepage is complete at the moment, as it is still in  
design stages.


Thanks in advance,
Mike @ Telford Computer Doctor


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RE: [WSG] HTML/CSS reference

[Andrew Cooper]

 
Hey fellow Web Developer also named Andrew!
The Ultimate HTML Reference (SitePoint) by Ian Lloyd - 
http://reference.sitepoint.com/htmlThe Ultimate CSS Reference (SitePoint) Tommy 
Olsson & Paul O'Brien - http://reference.sitepoint.com/css (this is the one 
that Russ mentioned)

You can get them both in hardback (and eBook format from SitePoint - 
http://www.sitepoint.com) but the online references are more up to date and 
have been amended to include errata and so on. I hope they're of use to you 
(I'm confident they will be!).
All the best,
Andrew Cooper
From: andrew.st...@zebraweb.com.au
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] HTML/CSS reference
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 08:56:48 +1000



Hello all, I was wondering if anyone on this distribution list would have a 
recommendation for a great HTML/CSS reference bible? I’ve been web developing 
for over 10 years but only in the last 2 have I got heavier into the HTML and 
CSS side of things and I’d class myself as an intermediate in terms of 
knowledge so not looking for a starters/beginners/HTML for dummies type of 
reference but more a in depth, tips and tricks for layout, cross-browser 
compatibility tips, do’s and don’ts, etc. I have a load of web references and 
enjoy the links for light reading however am after a book that I can take with 
me on my commute and have as a reference when needed at work etc. Any help 
would be greatly appreciated.  Kind RegardsAndrew 

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[WSG] HTML/CSS reference

[Andrew Staff]

Hello all,
 
I was wondering if anyone on this distribution list would have a
recommendation for a great HTML/CSS reference bible?
 
I've been web developing for over 10 years but only in the last 2 have I got
heavier into the HTML and CSS side of things and I'd class myself as an
intermediate in terms of knowledge so not looking for a
starters/beginners/HTML for dummies type of reference but more a in depth,
tips and tricks for layout, cross-browser compatibility tips, do's and
don'ts, etc.
 
I have a load of web references and enjoy the links for light reading
however am after a book that I can take with me on my commute and have as a
reference when needed at work etc.
 
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
 
Kind Regards
Andrew  
 
 
 


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Re: [WSG] screen reader friendly and keyboard accessible popup?

[Andrew Boyd]

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Smith, Jamie  wrote:
> After the click me link is selected a person using speech read
>
>  Keyboard Accessible Popup
> Click me - This is keyboard accessible, but will the empty link creates
> redundant noise for screen reader?
>
> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.
>
> Close
>  Click me
>
> The person did not like the redundant text and wonder why a regular
> message box wasn't used.

Jamie,

this just proves to me that nobody really likes "Lorem ipsum..." :)

Seriously though, I am not sure I get what you are saying. Is the
problem that the link text is read twice to the screen reader user?
And just out of interest, which screen reader were they using?

Best regards, Andrew


-- 
---
Andrew Boyd
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss


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Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Andrew Cunningham]

On 25/01/2011 12:34 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:
> One word : semantics.
> 

Assuming authors use the element in the same way, and assuming the
element has only one semantic meaning possible.

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Project Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Mobile: 0459-806-589
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Andrew Stewart]

Is there a js file somewhere that would allow me to just insert the following 
into my pages:


http://cdn.domain.com/ie6.js";> 


It would then pop up a warning to the user (but only once per session) that 
their browser was out of date, and give them links to more modern browsers - 
like what Google does, but in a way that would allow me to just insert that 
code and not have to worry about it. Also I think there would be value in 
having the same warning shown to users across multiple sites - might help to 
ram the message home a bit stronger :)

Like the OP I too want to have something other than just a broken page, but 
considering the value that IE 6 users bring to my site I am not prepared to 
spend more than a few minutes to cater for them.

Andy

On 19 Dec 2010, at 12:59, Grant Bailey wrote:

> Big companies such as Google and Youtube have had to deal with the IE6 
> problem on a large scale. Their pages display a warning message to advise IE6 
> users that the page may not display correctly, and suggest upgrading to a 
> more recent browser.
> 
> Personally I think it is reasonable to take this approach, given the age of 
> IE6 and its declining market share. However I would be interested in the 
> attitude of other developers.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Grant Bailey
> 
> On 19/12/2010 2:03 AM, Anthony Gr. wrote:
>> Sorry :)
>> 
>> ...
>> of course.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Anton.
>> 
>> 
>> 2010/12/18 Anthony Gr.:
>>> Hi. I think, this example will help you:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Anton
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2010/12/18 tee:
 I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
 has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due 
 to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to 
 see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
 
 Can this be done?
 
 Thanks!
 
 tee
 
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[WSG] spam in the site...

[Andrew Harris]

A query about the http://webstandardsgroup.org/ site.

There's a heap of spammy stuff in it... eg: check the resources section!
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/resource.cfm

The decreasing signal to noise ratio just makes the site useless, is
anyone maintaining/managing it?

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] Mobile urls

[Andrew Cunningham]

On 15/11/2010 6:15 PM, Michael MD wrote:
>> Although the most interesting aspect of BBC mobile content esp. for complex 
>> script languages is the choice between a textual version and an image 
>> >version:
> 
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/mobile/india/2010/11/101114_raja_resign_final_skj.shtml
> 
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/mobile/image/india/2010/11/101114_raja_resign_final_skj/
> 
>> Since mobile devices are years behind desktops and laptops in text rendering 
>> capabilities.
> 
> 
> Wow, thats insane given the high prices charged for data by some phone 
> companies!
> ...but yes its probably the only way you can do it for those languages on a 
> lot of devices.
> 
> 

Esp. since in some countries, mobile access to internet is more common
that desktop access to internet, and data charges can be prohibitive.

most common approaches to language support on mobiles devices involves:

* jail breaking the device and hacking support into device
* using images
* using legacy encodings
* using pseudo-Unicode solutions (essentially an 8-bit legacy glyph
based encoding superimposed over a Unicode block).

Sometimes I feel I'm back in the 90s.

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Project Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Mobile: 0459-806-589
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
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Re: [WSG] Mobile urls

[Andrew Cunningham]

Although the most interesting aspect of BBC mobile content esp. for
complex script languages is the choice between a textual version and an
image version:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/mobile/india/2010/11/101114_raja_resign_final_skj.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/mobile/image/india/2010/11/101114_raja_resign_final_skj/

Since mobile devices are years behind desktops and laptops in text
rendering capabilities.

On 15/11/2010 12:22 PM, Jason Grant wrote:
> First time I have come across the first convention you outline Sam, but
> it is an interesting proposition.
> 
> I have a feeling that it is a better way (in the long term) to treat
> content, rather than having a mobile specific site. 
> 
> However, sticking an MP extension onto a page name is arguably nothing
> different to having that MP as a subdomain indicator (e.g.
> example.com/mp/page.html <http://example.com/mp/page.html> instead of
> example.com/pagemp.html <http://example.com/pagemp.html>). 
> 
> BBC also seems to mix in stuff like
> this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/index.html 
> 
> I don't think that currently there are 'generally accepted' ways of
> handling mobile content. There are at least 3 ways in which I can think
> people will handle mobile stuff right now and they are all as common as
> anything else. 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jason 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 1:05 AM, Sam Dwyer  <mailto:dwyer@abc.net.au>> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to handle mobile
> versions of content? Specifically arguments for and against how the
> BBC handles different formats – including mobile, simply by
> appending a format type to the end of a canonical url.
> 
> Ie.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5 is the base url
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5.mp is the mobile version
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5.xml is the same data in xml
> format
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5.rdf is the rdf
> representation of the data
> 
>  
> 
> VS the generally accepted alternative to doing mobile which is to
> provide a different domain, such as mob. Or m.
> 
> Ie.
> 
> http://m.smh.com.au/
> 
> http://m.abc.net.au/
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on pros/cons of the two methodologies? Just
> curious to see if anyone else has implemented the BBC method?
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Sam Dwyer
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
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Mobile: 0

Re: [WSG] lazyweb://schema.agnostic.URLs

[Andrew Harris]

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Patrick H. Lauke
 wrote:
> It really just depends on what you're trying to do though.

Precisely, and the IE hit certainly pales into insignificance compared
to the benefits for us.
We run a lot of sites, an awful lot of pages, and an awful lot of
visitors. Any resources - even the Uni logo in the corner - that can
be shared effectively are going to make a substantial difference. Our
current style sheets have absolute URLs to these shared graphics,
which caused 'mixed content' problems in secure environments.

> shared assets between http and https versions that are cached
> even when moving from insecure to secure.

I actually expect to see a cached version of each, not a single, shared object.
We'll be doing a bit more testing, but at this stage, it looks like a
thumbs up for our situation.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] lazyweb://schema.agnostic.URLs

[Andrew Harris]

oh, thank you!

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Mathew Robertson
 wrote:
> works fine.
> http://www.no-http.org/
> http://www.webreference.com/html/tutorial2/3.html
> cheers,
> Mathew Robertson

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[WSG] lazyweb://schema.agnostic.URLs

[Andrew Harris]

I remember a discussion about this a long time ago, can't remember if
it was on this list, but someone might remember...

* We're a big university: lots of pages!
* We want to use one master style sheet as much as possible, to
maximise caching, minimise management etc.
* The images referenced in the style sheet are absolutely referenced
so that sites that are not on the same domain can still benefit from
centralised, cached images and not have to have duplicate local
copies.
* This breaks a bit when a site switches a user to SSL :-(

I once read that you could reference an absolute URL independent of
the schema, so that instead of:
http://some.domain.com/a/path
you could use:
//some.domain.com/a/path
and that the reference would just adopt the current schema, http or
https making everybody happy.

Initial limited tests show me that this might work, but I can't find
the source of the information now, or even whether it's correct usage
- can anyone shed some light?
or even offer an alternative solution!

I'm vaguely thinking there might be an elegant apache solution for
serving the right CSS.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
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[WSG] to submit or not to submit?

[Andrew Harris]

Interesting discovery today regarding the use of the return key to
submit a form...

Our ageing standard uni template has always had a mild form of
validation on the site search box, where the submit button (input)
remains disabled until something other than the standard text is
entered into the text input. see it here:
http://www.unimelb.edu.au/about/ We did this when we realised that by
far the most common search term was an empty search, or one with some
sort of default text. It seemed to work as far as avoiding those dud
searches, but as I was working on a successor to the template and
revisiting the old search box, I noticed that even with the submit
button disabled, I could use the return key to submit the form.

Further investigation revealed that the mac versions of Firefox,
Camino and Opera would not submit, but Chrome (mac & PC), Safari (mac)
and IE6/7 would submit. Those were all I had on my machine at the time
so I haven't done any more tests, but I thought it was curious.

Any ideas on what might be the 'standard' behaviour - if one is
specified? failing that, how about just a 'desired' behaviour ;-)

-- 
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and...@woowoowoo.com
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Re: [WSG] A question about RTL

[Andrew Cunningham]

 
On Tue, August 17, 2010 14:41, Mathew Robertson wrote:
> The problem itself is that bidi is hard and there are some corner
> cases that arn't well defined -> basically, if you want to display LTR
> text, on RTL layout, then you will probably find stuff that doesn't
> work right  (AFAIK this is sanctioned as undefined behaviour).
>

It doesn't help that different browsers have somewhat different behaviour
in this scenario.

There has been discussions on what is needed in HTML5 to get better bidi
support, but guess it will be a while before we see such things.

Currently the best approach is to use markup correctly, and use bidi
control characters as needed.

Embedding LTR only text in a RTL block is likely to cause grief, as does
RTL text in a LTR block

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Research and Development Coordinator
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andr...@vicnet.net.au



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[WSG] HTML5 offline storage question

[Andrew Harris]

Hi all, I'm asking around the traps on a question which has come up at work.

We want to develop an iPad app to will allow users to download from a
website (like a synch) large quantities (hundreds of MB) of documents
(pdf and word) for reading offline.

Is the offline storage tool in HTML5 designed for this sort of heavy lifting?
are there storage limitations?
on an iPad?

I've found a few examples of the tool in action and read bits and
pieces, but it all seems to be about storing small chunks of data, not
humunguous great whumps of it.

-- 
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and...@woowoowoo.com
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Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Andrew Boyd]

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 3:25 PM,   wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am on holiday until Monday 9th August.  If you need to speak to someone in 
> the team before then please contact Richard Garbutt for operational issues 
> and Dr Andy Jupe for financial or contractual matters.
>
> Best wishes
>
> John Cowles

Hope you're enjoying that holiday, John. This is the 4th email
notification that I've received for it.

Best, Andrew

-- 
---
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http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss


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Re: [WSG] Korean fonts

[Andrew Cunningham]

or

On 9/07/2010 3:51 PM, Matthew Pennell wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Brett Goulder  <mailto:brett.goul...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> font-family:"돋움", Dotum, sans-serif;
> This should work, this is from Cyworld.



alternatively, assuming you aren't targeting Windows only:

AppleGothic (애플고딕) – default Korean font on Apple Mac OS X.
Dotum (돋움), DotumChe (돋움체), Gulim (굴림) – Korean version of the
fonts found in Microsoft Windows, all regions of Windows XP or later.
GulimChe (굴림체) – Distributed with all regions of Windows 2000 and later
Malgun Gothic (맑은 고딕) – distributed with Windows Vista as default
interface font.
UnDotum (은돋움) – one of Un-series fonts initially derived from Korean
LaTeX fonts with the same name. freely available and licensed under GPL.
included in a number of Linux distributions
Baekmuk Gulim (백묵굴림) – freely available and included in a number of
Linux distributions

Can't remember what the default Windows 7 korean font is.

so maybe:

font-family:
애플고딕, AppleGothic, "맑은 고딕", "Malgun Gothic", 돋움, Dotum, 은돋
움, UnDotum, 백묵굴림, "Baekmuk Gulim", sans-serif;

alternatively if you don't want a dodum typeface, but would prefer a
Myeongjoche style typeface the follwoing fonts are available:

Batang (바탕), BatangChe (바탕체), Gungsuh (궁서), GungsuhChe (궁서체)
UnBatang (은바탕), UnGungsuh (은궁서) - included in most Linux distributions
Baekmuk Batang (백묵 바탕) - included in most Linux distributions

so maybe something like:

font-family: 바탕, Batang, 은바탕, UnBatang, "백묵 바탕", "Baekmuk
Batang", serif;


Andrew

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Project Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

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<>

Re: [WSG] Korean fonts

[Andrew Cunningham]

On 9/07/2010 8:44 AM, David Hucklesby wrote:
> Can you please suggest a font stack suitable for a site that's entirely
> in Korean?
> 

depends on who the audience is, where they are.

If most users are using Korean localised operating systems, then the
range of core fonts that can be used in a font stack is quite large.

For users suing a non-Korean OS, the choice of fonts are limited. And
you'd take into account variation in fonts across OS versions.


> I am assisting a student Web designer who is developing a site in
> Korean--a language with which I am entirely unfamiliar. Using a font
> stack out of Dreamweaver, none of which have any Korean glyphs AFAICT,
> browsers make their own choices, it seems. But IE's choice is a
> particularly ugly one...
> 
> Many thanks for any help you can offer.
> 
> Cordially,
> David
> -- 
> 
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-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Project Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~andrewc/
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http://www.vicnet.net.au
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[WSG] that old IE6 thing...

[Andrew Harris]

I know this was a recent discussion, and I don't want to revive an
already well worn subject, but I just noticed something amazing on a
multi user blog site I manage.

Two blogs, same base domain, same template, same environment, same university.

Blog 1:
Audience: Librarians
IE6: 42.2%
Firefox (all versions): 23%

Blog 2:
Audience: Students
IE6: 9.8%
Firefox (all versions): 40.5%

Proving once again, that knowing your audience is key. (and perhaps
that librarians are a bit slow to upgrade ;)

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]

[Andrew Stewart]

Mike

I totally understand that you don't want to publicise sensitive  
information, but I fear that you may have misunderstood my question -  
I wasn't asking for £ values. My question was what percentage of your  
revenue comes from IE6 users? Would it be fair to assume that it is  
much less than the 9.64% of traffic that comes from IE6?


I am involved in brochure-style websites but I would imagine  
"percentage of revenue" is very important metric for e-commerce sites,  
but people only ever seem to discuss visitors/page-views etc.


Thanks,

Andy

On 14 Jun 2010, at 22:45, Foskett, Mike wrote:


Sorry Andy,

Given the competitive nature that exists between the large UK  
retailers I feel professionally uncomfortable releasing such data.

That's why actual numbers were replaced with percentages.

Mike

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Stewart

Sent: 11 June 2010 13:16
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]

Mike,

Thanks for this, whilst the sites I manage are pretty low-traffic, I  
too have been seeing IE6 traffic of about 10-15%.


By mentioning "shoppers" I guess you are running an e-commerce site.  
I would be very interested to know how your revenue is split across  
browsers. It seems that IE6 users are either in a corporate system  
using an XP standard operating environment or people using older  
computers who may be a bit out-of-date when it comes to technology.  
Would it be reasonable to assume that the second category probably  
don't spend much money online? - so maybe the percentage of revenue  
gained from IE6 users may be much lower that 10% ?


Thanks,

Andy


On 11 Jun 2010, at 21:32, Foskett, Mike wrote:


Hi all,

Ref "Links for light reading" article: 
http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/

Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold  
across USA and Europe.


I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010.
A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only.
And I couldn't agree less with the article.

Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be  
readily ignored.
While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages  
should be fine.
I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of  
general use worldwide.


Internet explorer only:
IEv8: 48.26%
IEv7: 37.14%
IEv6: 14.58%
Other: 0.02%

In general:
IE: 66.12%
Firefox: 16.25%
Safari: 8.06%
Chrome: 6.89%
Others: 2.67%

So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by  
the article.

Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore.
And by the way who actually said 5% is the "ignorable" threshold?
I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally.


Regards,


Mike Foskett
http://websemantics.co.uk/


This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all  
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and not Tesco.


Tesco Stores Limited
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Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]

[Andrew Stewart]

Mike,

Thanks for this, whilst the sites I manage are pretty low-traffic, I  
too have been seeing IE6 traffic of about 10-15%.


By mentioning "shoppers" I guess you are running an e-commerce site. I  
would be very interested to know how your revenue is split across  
browsers. It seems that IE6 users are either in a corporate system  
using an XP standard operating environment or people using older  
computers who may be a bit out-of-date when it comes to technology.  
Would it be reasonable to assume that the second category probably  
don't spend much money online? - so maybe the percentage of revenue  
gained from IE6 users may be much lower that 10% ?


Thanks,

Andy


On 11 Jun 2010, at 21:32, Foskett, Mike wrote:


Hi all,

Ref "Links for light reading" article: 
http://mashable.com/2010/06/01/ie6-below-5-percent/

Which basically states IEv6 has dropped below the 5% threshold  
across USA and Europe.


I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010.
A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only.
And I couldn't agree less with the article.

Our figures are from such a large representation they cannot be  
readily ignored.
While I cannot print the actual numbers, the browser percentages  
should be fine.
I thought they may be of use to others working in the UK and of  
general use worldwide.


Internet explorer only:
IEv8: 48.26%
IEv7: 37.14%
IEv6: 14.58%
Other: 0.02%

In general:
IE: 66.12%
Firefox: 16.25%
Safari: 8.06%
Chrome: 6.89%
Others: 2.67%

So IEv6 is still at 9.64% overall. Virtually double that stated by  
the article.

Sorry for the bad news but IEv6 is still too relevant to ignore.
And by the way who actually said 5% is the "ignorable" threshold?
I'd of thought more like 2-3% personally.


Regards,


Mike Foskett
http://websemantics.co.uk/


This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all  
emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender  
and not Tesco.


Tesco Stores Limited
Company Number: 519500
Registered in England
Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt,  
Hertfordshire EN8 9SL

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RE: [WSG] HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives

[Andrew Cunningham]

On Tue, May 18, 2010 02:06, Ted Drake wrote:
> This has some nice descriptions about why you'd use certain strategies
> for alternate text. I'm gonna start throwing in some aria-describedby
> attributes right away.

Although what is lacking so far is good alternatives for text as distinct
from text alternatives.

Some of the discussions in the ICT4D area and in other avenues is the need
for support or oral rather than literate models for the web.

-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Research and Development Coordinator
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
Australia

andr...@vicnet.net.au




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Re: [WSG] Help with mobile MIME type always fails test

[Andrew Harris]

Well, well, well, you learn something new every day eh?

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 9:47 AM,   wrote:
> Just cancel on the login but load the page into the test site please to see 
> the results.

I still couldn't get into a page, but it doesn't matter - I think I
see the problem.

According to dot-mobi: "For XHTML-MP, the recommended MIME type is
application/vnd.wap.xhtml+xml or application/xhtml+xml. Unlike HTML,
XHTML-MP should not be served as text/html."

Consequently the mobile site I maintain at: http://m.unimelb.edu.au
also generates a warning. On the other hand, I get the feeling it's
pretty much an 'edge case' as far as failure goes. Serving as
text/html isn't going to break many browsers. I suspect only most
primitive wap only browsers will fail to load the content. If you look
at dot-mobi's little graph, it indicates that such browsers are likely
to be on mobiles greater than 5 years old - pretty minor stuff given
that, if you're anything like our site, more than 95% of your mobile
traffic is going to be from Apple devices.

However, there's nothing wrong with being fussy, so getting you server
to use the correct MIME type will require you either getting into the
apache.conf file or using .htaccess to set the mime type for the file
extensions you're using. This can get tricky and will break things if
you don't know what you're doing. (I don't!)

In my case - using the MySource Matrix CMS, it's just a matter of
adding a line to the beginning of my mobile template, if you are
running a CMS you may have a similar setting. I'm going to leave that
until Monday when I've got time to back out of it if it causes
problems :-)

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] Background music on web pages

[Andrew Cunningham]

HI

On 28/02/2010 6:18 PM, Brett Goulder wrote:
> I would just point your client to some usability articles and educate
> them why background music is very bad.
> 

although I tend to hate background music, even when it was in vogue way
back when 

There are valid accessibility reason for playing sound files on page load.

On one project i'm starting work on we are working with what UNESCO
tends to refer to as a lesser used language on the internet.

A lot of information needs to presented, but we also need to take into
account mother language literacy levels, which are quite low in the
target communities. So need to for usability and accessibility reasons
to look at non-textual alternatives to textual material.

So options to enable the playing of audio on page load is quite useful.

Doesn't get around that problem of site navigation, maybe sound snippets
and icons may help, but rendering complex semantics into small icons can
be difficult if not impossible.

This project has definitely shown me how much the web is mired in a
literate model, and am stuggling with how to adapt to a model based on
orality rather than literacy.


> My 2 cents would be to just not do it.

for music I'd agree, for other purposes 

> http://completeusability.com/regrettable-background-music/
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce P wrote:
>> Smal player and an off button one can find immediately is a
>> prerequisite :)
>>
>> Bruce
>> - Original Message - From: "Lesley Lutomski"
>> 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:50 AM
>> Subject: [WSG] Background music on web pages
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I apologise if this is off-topic, but I'd really appreciate some advice.
>>>
>>> I have clients who insist they want background music on their Web
>>> site. I've tried to dissuade them, but without success.  What is the
>>> most acceptable/least intrusive method of doing this?  UK licensing
>>> requirements differ depending on whether the music is downloadable or
>>> not, so I need to sort out the method in order to advise them on the
>>> licences. I'm still hoping the complexities of the licensing system
>>> will succeed where I've failed and put them off the whole notion, but
>>> in case not, I'd be most grateful for some input here.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Lesley
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: [WSG] Background music on web pages

[Andrew Cunningham]

On 28/02/2010 12:36 AM, Henrik Madsen wrote:
> 
> 80s Kevin? Mid 90s at the latest.
> 
don't you mean mid-90s at the earliest?



-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Project Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
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Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

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Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

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RE: [WSG] Progressive Enhancement

[Andrew Cooper]

 
Hi Tom,

 

SitePoint has a good few articles on this topic, they're pretty recent too, in 
terms of not being so many years old. Have a look here:

 


http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/10/06/progressive-enhancement-1-html/
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/10/07/progressive-enhancement-2-css/
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/10/08/progressive-enhancement-3-javascript/
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/09/22/progressive-enhancement-graceful-degradation-basics/
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/09/23/progressive-enhancement-graceful-degradation-choice/
 

Also, I'd be interested in seeing what findings you currently have, if you can 
send them to me, that would be great thanks. Hope that list helps too.

 

Andrew Cooper
 
> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 10:23:49 -0500
> Subject: [WSG] Progressive Enhancement
> From: tom...@gmail.com
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> Does anyone have any good resources for current progressive
> enhancement techniques and also talking points? Google has shown me
> rather old articles, so I thought I'd hit you guys up for what you are
> doing in this area now.
> 
> I am going to be doing a presentation to coworkers and I'd like to
> have *up-to-date* info on what the most agreed upon and accepted
> concepts and most used techniques are as of late. I know it can get
> controversial, but there must be a majority consensus on at least some
> things.
> 
> Off-list would be fine, and probably preferred. If others are
> interested, email me and I can forward findings to you.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help as I dig into this.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
> ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

[Andrew Maben]

Please let this be the final word...

A

On Jan 31, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


On 01/02/2010 00:24, Jason Grant wrote:

@Thierry
Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in
'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end).


Even large corporations can be as misguided as you, Jason.


Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML?
Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in
'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running'
the HTML5 spec.


And they're also part of the effort for accessibility
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#acknowledgments

Whether they then follow the guidance they themselves have worked  
on is another matter, as with any large corporation. However, this  
does not give you a get-out-of-jail-free card.


Hey, http://www.google.co.uk still uses tables (!!!) for layout.  
Maybe I should stop using CSS altogether then, if they don't either?


I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why  
their

AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where
'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean:
time, money and skill, as outlined in my article.


For the last time: accessibility != making it work without  
JavaScript. It does mean that, with JavaScript, it's still  
accessible and usable (with keyboard, or screenreader, or screen  
magnifier, etc).


Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to  
continue

down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route?


Look, let's do it this way: let's agree to disagree. You can go off  
and feel that you've proven your point, while the rest of us can  
get on with actually understanding the implications of modern,  
standards-based, usable and accessible web development.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

[Andrew Stewart]

Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made  
accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use?


On 1 Feb 2010, at 10:31, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]

On Behalf Of Andrew Stewart
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:51 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

http://www.google.com/finance?q=gbpaud


I'm sorry, but this is a piece of garbage.
They are removing "outline" on real links, but they leave it on  
elements

that don't trigger any behavior via keyboard input.
If they ignore such basics I don't expect the rest of the page to be  
much

"better".


--
Regards,
Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com







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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

[Andrew Stewart]

My point about OS/browsers is that they can easily adjust the colours  
displayed to the screen for the whole operating system, which makes  
the whole computer more useable by colour blind users. Which is a much  
better solution than spending hours removing reds/greens etc from your  
site because it can be adjusted for specific users and will work with  
every website/application.


But to go back to the main concrete point of my email - is google  
finance accessible? - and if it isn't please explain how. Whilst there  
are no-javascript and no-flash versions of google finance they are  
such a poor imitation of the full site, I don't think they really  
count. Yes they display the same information but not in a usable manner.


Andy

--
a...@universalsprout.com

Andrew Stewart

Sydney :: +61(0)416 607 113
London :: +44(0)7900 245 789

www.universalsprout.com :: websites that sprout

On 1 Feb 2010, at 10:10, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


On 31/01/2010 22:50, Andrew Stewart wrote:
Whilst I think there are some silly impenetrable sites on the  
internet,

I don't think web developers should really be that concerned with
accessibility - not because it isn't worth it, but because we have
hardly any power over what the user sees. The real people that  
should be
concentrating on accessibility are people working on creating  
browsers

and operating systems because they can really do something about it.


Garbage in, garbage out. If you don't structure your content  
properly, add necessary hooks, and generally show basic awareness of  
what the problems are and circumvent them, there is no magical pixie- 
dust-powered technology in the browser or OS that can "accessify"  
your content.


And, for the last time, can we drop this whole "accessibility = non- 
JavaScript solution according to WCAG 1" slant? WCAG 2 has been out  
for over a year now, and that's the yardstick we use. And yes, WCAG  
2 allows for scripting, or any other accessibility-supported  
technologies. But that still means that these technologies need to  
be used in a responsible and correct way...because that's the "power  
over what the user sees".


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

[Andrew Stewart]

Accessibility does matter, but I do think that many people on this  
list do get too close to the "accessibility at all cost" point of view.


Lets take the example of google finance http://www.google.com/finance?q=gbpaud 
 quite a cool site using flash and js to navigate quite a large  
amount of data (make sure you expand the slider at the bottom of the  
flash graph to change the time scale and see how the list of news  
articles on the right changes). How could this site be modified to be  
meaningfully controlled by using the keyboard alone? I would be very  
interested to hear people's opinions on the following points:


• is this site accessible? and if not, please give real examples of  
saying how it is hard for people with disabilities to use
• how could you make it more accessible without introducing a huge  
amount of extra work for the developers and without having an adverse  
effect for non-disabled users?


Whilst I think there are some silly impenetrable sites on the  
internet, I don't think web developers should really be that concerned  
with accessibility - not because it isn't worth it, but because we  
have hardly any power over what the user sees. The real people that  
should be concentrating on accessibility are people working on  
creating browsers and operating systems because they can really do  
something about it.


Andy

--
a...@universalsprout.com

Andrew Stewart

Sydney :: +61(0)416 607 113
London :: +44(0)7900 245 789

www.universalsprout.com :: websites that sprout



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Re: [WSG] vegetable page vallidation

[Andrew Maben]

Please stop further wasting everyone's time with useless comments.  
Thank you.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."



On Jan 20, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:



yes





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RE: [WSG] css tutorial

[Andrew Cooper]

 
Hi Marvin,

 

If you're looking for help on CSS and some reference materials then I can't 
recommend the SitePoint CSS Reference [Located at: 
http://reference.sitepoint.com/css] highly enough. And as Chris said, I'd avoid 
W3Schools.com like the plague, it is severely lacking in up to date tutorial 
materials.

 

All the best,

 

Andrew Cooper

 

P.S This is my first reply in the WSG Mailing List! :)
 
> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:35:45 -0500
> From: ch...@cfajohnson.com
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] css tutorial
> 
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, Doug Burt wrote:
> 
> > Marvin,
> > You may want to try checking out the W3Schools at
> > http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
> > That site should provide you with way more than enough information to do a
> > couple of tutorials..
> 
> Unless their CSS tutorial is better than their HTML, I'd avoid
> w3schools like the plague!
> 
> 
> > - Original Message - From: "Marvin Hunkin" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:56 PM
> > Subject: [WSG] css tutorial
> > 
> > 
> > > hi.
> > > well a member of blind geeks.
> > > and asked to write a short basic tutorial on css.
> > > did learn css in my web design course in 2007.
> > > and di use it a bit to tweek a web project recently.
> > > but my question is:
> > > what resources and what links to some tutorials to get a handle on how to
> > > write a short css tutorial.
> > > and how to write one.
> > > and what do i need to put in it.
> > > just asking.
> > > i do know css, but a bit rusty.
> > > and totally blind.
> > > so the biggest problem, where things are located on screen.
> > > so any one got any ideas where to start and how to write a tutorial for 
> > > this
> > > technical group.
> > > Marvin.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ***
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> ===
> Author:
> Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
> Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
> 
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Re: [WSG] a tiny usability question on web form

[Andrew Maben]

I think this *is* a usability issue.

How vital is it to have states available as a pull-down, rather than  
a simple text field? If the pull-down is non-negotiable, my  
suggestion would be to move the country choice to the top of the  
address section: I think that might be a little less jarring than  
placing it in the middle.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."



On Jan 5, 2010, at 10:52 AM, tee wrote:





On Jan 5, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Elias Abunassar wrote:


Conduct research.

Sent from my iPhone


Please do not assume people don't do homework before they post :-)

I did conduct research before I posted my message.

Here are the problems:

1. I have difficulty to locate sites in different countries that  
the web forms have address. Google is not useful in this case.



2. web forms that have addresses and they are mostly eCommerce  
sites, and it seems they all use templates that come with the  
eCommerce system, and they are generic, more like tagsoup address  
and country field is placed at the last (exclude phone/fax fields).  
I checked over 30 sites from 10 countries, no exception.


tee



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Re: [WSG] breaks, lists in a form or not, and more or less divs

[Andrew]

I'm sorry but that is ridiculous.

We are talking about a poem and I assure you that the lines have a  
very definite semantic significance. Therefore the separation of the  
text into lines *must* be retained even in the absence of CSS. Any  
solution other than the  tag is needlessly complicated. Though  
perhaps  might be acceptable in the case of concrete poetry. But  
some thing like this http://blog.richmond.edu/openwidelookinside/files/2008/12/shape-poem-01.gif 
 can only be presented as an image.


Andrew

Sent from my iPod

On Jan 5, 2010, at 1:40 AM, Jayachandran Kandasamy > wrote:



Use padding / margin thru CSS instead of BRs...

Thank u

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson > wrote:

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, Jayachandran Kandasamy wrote:

> Hi Dwaal,
>
> Please dont practice to use BR tags for line breaks..

  Why not? That's what they're for.

> it is not standard web development

  The W3C says otherwise.

> and lot of compatibility issues will occur across browsers and
> internet devices :) :)

  ??? Can you be more specific?

  Of course one shouldn't use them in continuous blocks of text (the
  browser will take care of it), but where a line break is needed
  they are fine.


> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Frances de Waal   
wrote:

>
> > Hi there,
> >
> > May I ask your opinion about some semantic/HTML basics?
> >
> > In case of a poem, if I place every verse in a paragraph, what  
do I do with
> > each line of text in the verse? Is this one of the very few  
occasions to use
> > breaks? A verse doesn't seem a list to me... or is it? I like  
your opinion.

> >
> > In the very few tutorials I have seen about how to markup a form
> > semantically, both were using  a list in the form. To me that  
seems totally
> > unneccessary plus too much markup. Does anyone know what can be  
the reason

> > of doing it that way?
> >
> > InContextEditing, the online CMS from Adobe, needs a extra div  
for every
> > editable region. This makes me avoiding the tool. Some keep  
saying that
> > extra divs don't make any difference to a page at all. I agree  
they have no
> > meaning semantically, but they do create extra code which is not  
neccessary
> > for the content. But then again, we don't talk about 100 divs  
here. So,
> > besides of best practice, is there any place where the extra  
divs may have

> > bad influence?
> >
> >  Frances de Waal
> > www.waalweb.nl
> >
> >  
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  ===
  Author:
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  Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)


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Re: [WSG] [WSG Announce] Some links for light reading (22/12/09)

[Andrew Maben]

Yes, Russ - you're doing a great [and indispensable!] job. Keep the  
links coming, please.


Thanks, and Happy Holidays,

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."



On Dec 23, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote:

You didn't give up did you Russ??? There is always hope if we  
choose to

see it right?
Please keep sending your links and don't let the "bad" apples spoil  
the

whole bunch :)

Sincerely!

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Russ Weakley
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] [WSG Announce] Some links for light reading
(22/12/09)

...Ahhh... I give up... there is no hope.

Russ


On 22/12/2009, at 10:46 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Will HTML5 make the Web even more invalid?
<http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/html5-make-web-more-invalid/>


Can you provide any reason why you keep posting links to this site?
Yes the blog _seems_ to be about web standards, but the posts are  
just



speculation of poor quality and based on the lack of information,
misunderstanding and false assumptions.

Sure, the guy has financial interest of keeping xhtml afloat, so he
may see the HTML5 as a threat, but that's not a good enough reason to
spout nonsense.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/




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[WSG] Andrew is out of the office... [SEC=No Protective Marking Present]

[Andrew . Remely]

 
I will be out of the office starting  04/12/2009 and will not return until
08/12/2009.

For urgent matters please contact on my mobile phone

Help the Starlight Foundation connect sick kids to the joy of Christmas - make 
a donation any Medicare office or visit  www.starlight.org.au   

__

NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee named above 
and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the 
intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not 
disseminate, copy or take any action based upon it. If you received this 
message in error please notify Medicare Australia immediately. Any views 
expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the 
sender specifically states them to be the views of Medicare Australia.

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
***


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RE: [WSG] 8 invites for Google Wave [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew A. Savelyev]

I got 18. Please let me know, if you need one.

Best,
Andrew A. Savelyev


From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Krishna Huliyar
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 1:37 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] 8 invites for Google Wave [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

I got 14. please let me know, if you need one.

Cheers,
Krishna
2009/12/4 Juarez P. A. Filho 
Just to let you know I have 12 invites :)


Best Regards,
Juarez P. A. Filho
Web Addict/Consultant
http://juarezpaf.com | http://twitter.com/juarezpaf 


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams." 
Eleanor Roosevelt




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-- 
ಎಲ್ಲಿ ಜೀವನ ನಡೆವುದೋ ಅದೆ ನಮ್ಮೂರು
ಯಾರು ಸ್ನೇಹದಿ ಬರುವರೋ ಅವರೆ ನಮ್ಮೋರು
elli jIvana naDevudO ade nammUru
yAru snEhadi baruvarO avare nammOru
Sent from Melbourne, Vic, Australia 
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Re: [WSG] developing a web strategy...

[Andrew Harris]

Yes, people are welcome to recommend themselves, however this is a big
organisation and it's going to be one hell of a piece of work.
Individuals are unlikely to get a call - established companies with a
track record are what we are looking for. It's just not one of those
things you can look up in the Yellow Pages :-)

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Nathanael Boehm  wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Just to clarify, considering that there are probably quite a few consultants
> and agencies on this mailing list who would be interested in this work - are
> you ok with them recommending themselves or submitting proposals etc? What
> are you wanting out of this process?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nathanael Boehm

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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[WSG] developing a web strategy...

[Andrew Harris]

I suppose this is a bit off topic*, please bear with me, I make a
habit of these oddball requests.

We are (finally) looking to develop a new and comprehensive web
strategy for our large and diverse university (unimelb).

One immediate proviso is that the strategy should be developed by
someone who is seen as an authority and is independent. Preferably an
organisation with a track record - either here or overseas.

Suggestions? Good/bad experiences?

Please reply directly if you think it's not relevant to the list.

* obviously, a web strategy will include, at some point, a discussion
of web standards, so there's the tie-in!

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

How I love this community!
I haven't solved my problems yet, but based on the comments and ideas
I've gathered in the past few days, the site has improved
substantially. This latest comment from Philippe...

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Philippe Wittenbergh  wrote:
> Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it
> should. That is server misconfiguration.

I dismissed at first, thinking our CMS wouldn't allow me to tweak such
fundamental settings, but it led me into the bowels of the support
forums where I dredged up the little slice of code I needed. Now, the
sitemap.xml as well as the kml and gpx feeds are all served correctly
as text/xml - did I say how I love this community? - and I've a
grudging respect for MySource Matrix too!

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

> Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it
> should. That is server misconfiguration. I'm not surprised Googlebot doesn't
> pick it up.

yes, quite right, unfortunately, I don't think I can get the CMS to
serve it correctly as xml, however google digested it happily enough -
just failed to spider all URLs - something which I now know is normal.

The only puzzle I still have is with the search results in our Custom
Search Engine (still off topic!) but why would the public search
return a different amount to the custom search? I have to admit, after
5 months of no change, this week it's gone from 1 result to 21 - go
figure!

Thanks again to all who replied.

It's just reinforced to me that if you want an internal search engine
that really works and is controllable, that leaving it up to the magic
donkeys at google is really not an option. Still trying to convince
our fine institution of that ;-)

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

ahh - no.

I did change some stuff on the site, but not the xml file - I suspect
whatever you were looking at it with the first time had to put the
html tags around it just to make sense of it.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Swami Neelamber  wrote:
> Sorry Hassan! It would seem it's been changed.
> Andrew's been beavering away, as one does.
>
> His original "XML" file I downloaded from the same URI as you
> did: <http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml>, right onto my desktop (it's
> still there), and I believe I probably did that a number of hours before you
> looked.
> Sorry for the confusion. Keep breathing.
>
> Swami  :)
>
>
>
> www.blueskyzen.com/design
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Hassan Schroeder 
> wrote:
>>
>> Swami Neelamber wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not totally sure about that  you've used top and bottom
>>> of your *sitemap.xml* file?
>>
>> Don't know what you're looking at but there are no such tags in the
>> document at <http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml>
>>
>> --
>> Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
>> webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
>> twitter: @hassan
>>                          dream.  code.
>>
>>
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-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

Bother! that last reply was supposed to be off list!
Oh well, the discussion had got around to web standards by that point,
so it's fair game.

...and it's a friday afternoon, cut me some slack!!

Thanks to all those who have replied off list. By way of reporting
back to the list, I'll say...

1) Sitemaps are not the magic fix I thought they were.
2) Inbound links and organic indexing are vital.
3) My map pages are pretty short on text - google likes text.

One thing that no-one picked up on was that I still haven't inserted
some common metadata tags - I know they say google doesn't look at the
metadata tags, but it makes me wonder.

Funny how asking your peers to check your work suddenly makes you
aware of basic things you'd missed...
 yes, my pages weren't valid - but they are now!!!  ;-p

--
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

Craig,
OK - that's a really interesting comment.

I had, as far as I knew, used the right formatting, the sitemap validates as
XML and Google's webmaster tools accepted it as a valid feed (after a few
tweaks!)

I followed this document, which I understand is the definitive source.
http://www.sitemaps.org/protocol.php
and my sitemap looks pretty much like that - apart from a couple of
whitespace discrepancies.

The fact that it worked for some of the URLs makes me think it's not a
problem with the sitemap, but it's all interesting stuff.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Craig Jones
wrote:

>  Hi Andrew,
> This is my firts time trying to help...
> It doesn't appear that your sitemap is written in xml
> The sitemap should look like this
> http://www.sitemaps.org/schemas/sitemap/0.9
>
> http://www.sitemaps.org/schemas/sitemap/0.9/sitemap.xsd";>
> 
> www.unimelb.edu.au/campuses/maps.html
> 
> 
> www.unimelb.edu.au/campuses/maps2.html
> 
> 
> then submit you new sitemap in google webmaster tools
> Goodluck
> Craig
>
>
> Andrew Harris wrote:
>
> Yes, I know it's off topic, but I really need a hand with a mystifying
> problem. I've tried the google forums, but have received no replies.
> If there are any listers who understand the free Google Custom Search
> Engine, webmaster tools, sitemaps and indexing problems, then I'd
> really appreciate you contacting me directly in regards to some
> problems I'm having.
>
> Just to give an idea of my 
> quandary...http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml 
> (100+ URLs submitted 5 months 
> ago)http://www.google.com/search?q=site:maps.unimelb.edu.au (34 results = 
> pathetic!)http://go.unimelb.edu.au/6t6 (1 result = totally pathetic!)
>
> Hopefully, it's nothing completely bleeding obvious that will
> humiliate me in front of my peers ;-)
>
>
>
>
> --
>
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-- 
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and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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[WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

Yes, I know it's off topic, but I really need a hand with a mystifying
problem. I've tried the google forums, but have received no replies.
If there are any listers who understand the free Google Custom Search
Engine, webmaster tools, sitemaps and indexing problems, then I'd
really appreciate you contacting me directly in regards to some
problems I'm having.

Just to give an idea of my quandary...
http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/
http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml (100+ URLs submitted 5 months ago)
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:maps.unimelb.edu.au (34 results = pathetic!)
http://go.unimelb.edu.au/6t6 (1 result = totally pathetic!)

Hopefully, it's nothing completely bleeding obvious that will
humiliate me in front of my peers ;-)

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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RE: [WSG] Accessible Image Map Editors [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew . Remely]

> i need to create a image map for a web page i am developing for one
> of my
> online programming classes
> any recommendations would be appreciated.

Marvin

I presume you’re using the image map to illustrate a particular principle 
and encourage interaction in some way? What I’m getting at is there a 
pedagogic principle at work here? So making the image maps accessible may 
allow users to navigate through to other content etc. But if the image map 
is underpinning some particular approach to the delivery of learning that 
is highly visual and interactive in nature you may need to provide an 
alternative learning approach rather then just making the image map 
accessible. 

An extreme example to try and illustrate my point. You design an 
interactive activity where you say to students meet at the top of a long 
flight of stairs where we will discuss the effects of exercise on heart 
rate. Using a lift could provide an accessible alternative for someone in 
wheelchair to get to the discussion. But this wouldn’t achieve part of the 
outcome of the lesson; that is to experience first hand the effects of 
exercise on heart rate. In this case you may need to re-design exercise to 
make it accessible, i.e. use a hill instead of stairs. 

Andrew 


Medicare Australia is reimbursing the cost of external breast prostheses. For 
information and to check your eligibility call 132 011 or visit our  website. 

__

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Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1? - ADMIN

[Andrew Newman]

More than one H1 on a page: good or bad?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM


On 20/10/2009, at 1:09 PM, Russ Weakley wrote:


ADMIN

Hi all,

The conversation has been great, but we are now heading into heated  
discussion and direct attacks - which is unacceptable. Please remain  
civil and receptive or the thread will be closed.


Thanks
Russ
(civility police)




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[WSG] Andrew is out of the office... [SEC=No Protective Marking Present]

[Andrew . Remely]

 
I will be out of the office starting  08/10/2009 and will not return until
12/10/2009.


Medicare Australia is reimbursing the cost of external breast prostheses. For 
information and to check your eligibility call 132 011 or visit our  website. 

__

NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee named above 
and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the 
intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not 
disseminate, copy or take any action based upon it. If you received this 
message in error please notify Medicare Australia immediately. Any views 
expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the 
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Re: [WSG] accessibility: government

[Andrew Boyd]

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:40 AM, Luc wrote:
> Good afternoon list,
>
> Does anybody know if their exists a list of what is required in terms of 
> accessibility
> features for each country (governments)?
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>  Luc

Hi Luc,

here in Australia we have a couple of pieces of legislation, the main
one being the Disability Discrimination Act - there is a guide to it
at http://hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/dda_guide/dda_guide.htm
There are some Better Practice Guidelines that touch on a lot of
accessibility issues (amongst others) at
http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/better-practice-and-collaboration/better-practice-checklists/index.html

Others may wish to add to the list above.

Best regards, Andrew

-- 
---
Andrew Boyd
http://uxaustralia.com.au -- UX Australia Conference Canberra 2009
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss
http://resilientnationaustralia.org Resilient Nation Australia


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[WSG] legal list numbering

[Andrew Harris]

How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
1.1 blah blah blah
1.2 blah blah blah
1.2.1 blah blah blah
1.2.2 blah blah blah
1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
2.1 blah blah blah
2.1.1 blah blah blah*

I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but
they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical
structure... nested ordered lists!

I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5.

* BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can
mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their
meaning.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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[WSG] Re: An Acceptable Dropdown [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew . Remely]

Interesting example - when I opened this page to have look it took a 
little time for all of the sub/drop-down menus to get working. So my first 
experience of this site was the key navigation not working. It did come 
good so not all was lost!

I'll be interested to see the comments on standards compliance...
You can claim your Medicare rebate at the doctor's. Ask if they offer  Medicare 
electronic claiming  next time you visit. =

__

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message in error please notify Medicare Australia immediately. Any views 
expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the 
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Re: [WSG] How Important Is Web Accessibility?

[Andrew Maben]

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How hard can that be?

On Aug 18, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Scott Andrews wrote:


Dont just auto mail me back. Actually delete me




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Re: [WSG] The of the document

[Andrew Stewart]

Do a search for something small to medium scale, for instance a  
doctor's surgery, a restaurant, a musician, a theatre etc. (I guess a  
large proportion of internet searches are for things like this). Now  
have a look at the number one entry returned in your search engine and  
examine the head. In my experience it probably won't have any meta  
data, and yet there it was at the top of the list.


There is so much great content out there presented in terrible ways  
and the success of search engines is that they are able to  
interoperate all that mess and return relevant results to people's  
searches. Part of me feels that most SEO is a bit of a waste of time -  
if you have good content, the search engines are clever enough that  
they will find it. I am not saying that you should put barriers  
between your content and the search engines, but maybe all the time  
and effort you spend forming the correct keywords would be better  
spent improving the quality of your content.


Andy

--
a...@universalsprout.com

Andrew Stewart

London :: +44(0)7900 245 789
Sydney :: +61(0)416 607 113

www.universalsprout.com :: websites that sprout



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[WSG] Re: The of the document [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew . Remely]

This might be pushing this slight off ‘standard’.
I noticed the question asked about headers and ‘good search ranking’. In 
respect to the  tag one of the most useful and simple optimisation 
for search is a clear and descriptive title. This is often what users use 
to make decisions on the relevance of different search results.
Recently I’ve been doing some benchmarking testing of an intranet search. 
One of the things that was working against good ‘discoverability’ was 
misleading or meaningless titles. Worst still there were multiple pages 
with similar titles. Also worth checking that you’ve got this sorted out 
for other things like PDF, .doc etc as most search engine index this 
content as well. I think a few content people weren’t that wrapped when I 
suggested that most of the problem with search were content related and 
not in the application.
And finally the “charset=utf-8" declaration. I would have thought that it 
is more important that the declaration matches the encoding you’ve used in 
the HTML? So if you're going with UTF make sure your page is actually UTF 
eps. any special characters. If using something like ISO then declare ISO 
etc.

Andrew
You can claim your Medicare rebate at the doctor's. Ask if they offer  Medicare 
electronic claiming  next time you visit. 

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Re: [WSG] Back to basics! [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew . Remely]

[snip]> Yes! Using UTF-8 in your web pages means NOT having to use HTML
> entities for text such as ñ or ê. The only HTML entities you
 
> need to use in your character data are & for '&' ampersand, < fo
r 
> '<' less-than, and > for '>' greater-than so that those characters 
> don't confuse the HTML parser.


If you’re using a CMS, XML and/or some other sort of phasing exercise care 
with character coding and declarations. I’ve seen some bugs with special 
characters not displaying properly in the final HTML. After much poking 
around it turned out to be a CMS spitting out UTF and a phaser expecting 
ISO characters. Obvious stuff but can be a real pain to diagnose.

Andrew 


You can claim your Medicare rebate at the doctor's. Ask if they offer  Medicare 
electronic claiming  next time you visit. 

__

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Re: [WSG] Back to basics!

[Andrew Cunningham]

I just use a modified keyboard layout that allows me to directly type 
necessary punctuation directly form the keyboard. no messing around with 
entities or NCRs.


Andrew

designer wrote:

Hi all,

Could anyone tell me where there is information regarding character 
code 'usage' that is simple.  I always use UTF-8 and, e.g., if I want 
to put a left quote in my text I can use " or “  Which is 
recommended?


Any help, links etc most welcome. (I have googled, but . . .)

Thanks,

Bob



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--
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~andrewc/
http://www.openroad.net.au
http://www.vicnet.net.au
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url:http://www.vicnet.net.au/
version:2.1
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[WSG] IE7 scrollbar problem

[Andrew Maben]

I have spent a lot of time Googling this problem with no luck. I  
suspect it may be one of those things that are so obvious I just  
can't see. So I'm turning to the list for help.


The page in question is: http://spark.andrewmaben.com/index.php? 
page=information and the CSS is at http://spark.andrewmaben.com/ 
resources/sparks2.css (Specifically line 655 ff).


In IE7 (and I imagine other versions) when clicking on the "Schools"  
tab in the center panel, the school info appears with no scrollbar, a  
second click "magically" reveals both horizontal and vertical  
scrollbars, and clicking on another tab and then re-clicking  
"Schools" reveals a vertical scrollbar (the desired result). Works  
fine in Safari/Mac, Firefox/Mac/PC. HTML is valid 4.01 strict. There  
are CSS errors due to the use of some proprietary properties, but I  
don't think they are a factor.


The "Schools" panel has a table contained within a fixed height div  
with overflow:auto. The "Other" panel, with a paragraph with  
overflow:auto is fine in IE7.


I'd really appreciate any suggestions.

(And yes, I know - mea culpa, I fell back on a layout table to hold  
the Weather).


Thanks,


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."







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Re: [WSG] utf8 character display problem

[Andrew Cunningham]

Richard Ishida's i18n checker is a useful tool for this type of case. 
Available at



http://rishida.net/tools/i18nchecker/index.php



Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Here's the issue:

We are working on a site that incorporates Russian text. It displays OK on
our development server, but when transferring the files to the live server
we get garbled output.


<…>
  

However, the same file uploaded to the live server displays the last menu
item incorrectly:

http://www.imperial-russian-dating.com/utf8-test.php

The file has been saved as utf8 encoded in the editor (Komodo) and then
uploaded to each server.

Any ideas ?



There are headers sent by your live server:
Connection:close
Content-Length:862
Content-Type:text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Date:Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:22:43 GMT
Server:Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS)
X-Powered-By:PHP/5.1.6

Take a look at Content-Type header: it specifies charset as iso-8859-1. Charset
specified in HTTP has preference over charset in META. If you have
access to your
server configuration look for AddDefaultCharset directive in Apache
config. You can either
change it to UTF or comment it out.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)

[Andrew Stewart]

On 30 Jun 2009, at 16:46, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:

For an example of a high-contrast version may I suggest to check out  
the Sydney Morning Herald's Travel section (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/ 
). Click on "Low vision" in the navigation bar (We're going to  
replace "low vision" with "high contrast" since the former can be  
perceived as discriminatory). The styles you see then have been  
developed together with a vision-impaired person.


They're not pretty, but usable.


I believe a better solution to this issue is to work at the level of  
the browser, or operating system, rather than on site by site basis.  
i.e creating really intelligent browser plug-ins or applications that  
are able to interpret the mess on the internet and make it more usable  
to all. This solution means that everyone could customise their  
experience to make it suitable for them. On the smh travel site you  
have only two options (normal and low vision) to cater for the many  
hundreds of levels of vision impairment. The current situation seems  
to be that most designers do nothing about accessibility, a few make  
an attempt and fail, but only a few get anywhere towards succeeding.


If a company/designer has a certain amount of time/money to spend on  
accessibility, perhaps the best way to spend it would be to donate it  
to free accessibility projects. I think this would probably have a  
greater positive effect on the web. After all, the few people that do  
spend any time at all on making their websites accessible, probably  
aren't going to be experts in accessibility, so probably won't do a  
very good job of it.


Perhaps the WSG would be a good institution for co-ordinating such a  
scheme for donating money to accessible software projects?


Andy

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Re: [WSG] accessible free web hosting account

[Andrew Stewart]

Craig, thank you for your response, this is the kind of thing that I  
am after, however you did quote the most controversial part of me  
email without the following sentence that slightly moderated it. I do  
agree that having the web 100% accessible is the goal, but what is the  
best way of getting there? I assume that we are not there at the  
moment and rewriting all the content already there is not that  
practical.


The web is moving into many complex areas of multimedia, for example  
should youtube be required by law to supply subtitles and voice-overs  
on all its videos? - maybe not, but where do you draw the line? For  
example there was a site I visited recently where you could control a  
dodgeball cannon with a webcam in real-time, firing at people in a  
warehouse somewhere in England. How would you suggest dealing with  
that site?


It is clear that a publicly funded website like that for the Olympic  
Games should be accessible, but are you suggesting that the same rules  
should apply to a high-school student doing a website for a school  
project? - again another tough line to draw. The scale of the internet  
means that the Australian laws will only have a very small impact on  
the internet as a whole.


Perhaps concentrating on improving assistive technology to cope with  
the varied state of the internet is a better solution than trying to  
improve the accessibility of websites. This would also make a lot of  
the content that is currently inaccessible accessible.


Andy


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Re: [WSG] accessible free web hosting account

[Andrew Maben]

On Jun 25, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Craig Henneberry wrote:


then why should companies bother?


Um - because companies are composed of people, and because ethics  
should be an important component of people's lives? AKA "Because it's  
the right thing to do."


Oh, and also because accessibility is mandated by law.

Andrew Maben

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."






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Re: [WSG] accessible free web hosting account

[Andrew Stewart]

Hi Marvin and everyone else,

I have been doing some research into web site accessibility and I  
would be interested to know a little bit about your experiences of  
using a screen reader and also if there are any designers out there  
that have experience of designing for, or using a screen reader.


At the recent WSG meeting at the Australian museum I met a designer  
who had just spent days trying to design a site to make it usable by  
colour blind users. A much better solution may be for colour blind  
users to tweak the colours of their operating system so that  
everything on their computer displays correctly. This also means the  
user can fine tune the displayed colours to cater for their exact type  
of colour deficiency. I have heard of software that does this, but it  
does not seem to be that successful. I guess this is a similar concept  
to a screen reader that works at the level of the operating system  
rather than on a website by website basis. I would be interested to  
know of your experiences of using the web - are there some sites that  
work fine and others that are terrible? Can you tell if the designer  
has taken the time to consider screen readers? Are there lots of  
differences between different screen readers?


Your other point about free hosting eludes to another uncomfortable  
issue - whilst a lot of things on the web are cheap, they are not  
free. I guess that in many cases a screen reader compromises your use  
of the internet, possibly making you less likely to return revenue to  
the companies that are paying for everything to be online. Most people  
would love to make every website 100% accessible to everyone. However,  
if it costs a lot of time and money, but returns very little revenue  
from the small number of users with screen readers, then why should  
companies bother? In effect this is asking the majority of people  
without screen readers to subsidise the users with screen readers.  
Maybe this is the best thing to do, but I think we would all benefit  
from some discussion on the issue.


I should probably mention that I am primarily a flex/flash developer  
creating very visual sites that I doubt would work at all with a  
screen reader. But unlike every flash/flex developer I have met, I am  
very interested in accessibility, SEO, and standards.


Thanks,

Andy

--
a...@universalsprout.com

Andrew Stewart

London :: +44(0)7900 245 789
Sydney :: +61(0)416 607 113

www.universalsprout.com :: websites that sprout

On 25 Jun 2009, at 16:56, Marvin Hunkin wrote:


hi.
looking for a free web hosting account that can handle side  
scripting, able
to use such technologies as visual web developer, sql server,  
visualbasic,

java script,etc.
i am in devonport, tasmania, australia.
i do not have a credit card, so a paid account is out of the question.
i am a blind web site designer, using the jaws for windows screen  
reader

from http://www.freedomscientific.com
so if any one can help out and recommend a good one which also has  
plenty of

large space.
and using windows vista, let me know.
cheers Marvin.
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/ 
JawsOz/





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Re: [WSG] Outlook 2010

[Andrew Stewart]

Nathan,

I think you are slightly missing the point, I for one don't care too  
hoots if microsoft uses its own rendering engine or not. All I care is  
that they use one that works and I think this is the main point of the  
campaign. I pretty much left web design a few years back because I  
hated the lack of cross-browser compatibility, but the issues with  
email clients are even worse - some don't support background images,  
or even css.


Andy

--
a...@universalsprout.com

Andrew Stewart

London :: +44(0)7900 245 789
Sydney :: +61(0)416 607 113

www.universalsprout.com :: websites that sprout

On 24 Jun 2009, at 22:57, Nathan de Vries wrote:


On 24/06/2009, at 9:58 PM, Matthew Pennell wrote:
This is so stupid - the reason that Outlook uses Word instead of a  
decent rendering engine is because of the same standards advocates  
complaining so much about IE6 being bundled with Windows! You can't  
have your cake and eat it too...


You seem very sure of yourself on this one, but wasn't Office 2007  
launched at the same time as Windows Vista which included IE7 at  
that time? Also, if an developer wants to use embedded IE within  
their application they can bundle the version they'd like to use.  
Why is Microsoft any different?


I agree with you that Microsoft not being allowed to package their  
own browser with their operating system is a farce, but it's a bit  
of a stretch to say that it's driven their decision to switch to  
using Word as the rendering engine for Outlook.



Cheers,

Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] website fonts

[Andrew Cunningham]

Felix Miata wrote:


On 2009/06/22 12:58 (GMT+1000) James Ellis composed:

To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your
example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's
choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big
money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them.
  


I wish it was possible for users of all languages to set their preferred 
font for their language in all browsers. IT IS NOT possible. Doesn't 
matter which browser you use there are writing scripts for which a user 
can not set or specify a default font through the browsers user 
interface. The best you can do is write a stylesheet to override a sites 
CSS rules. But not all users are able to write their own stylesheets.


Andrew

--
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

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Re: [WSG] OT: Dominos Pizza - Looking for someone who's worked there

[Andrew Boyd]

...and if anyone knows who designed the dominos.com.au online ordering  
system, please let me know. I'd like to have a quiet word with them :)


Cheers, Andrew

Andrew Boyd faci...@gmail.com
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss


On 16/06/2009, at 10:51 AM, "Mike Kear"  wrote:

This is off-topic for this list so please respond direct to me  
rather than

the list ...

I'm looking to have a quick chat to someone who's worked at Dominos  
Pizza

some time in the last 5 years - not necessarily in the IT area - even
someone who's delivered pizzas would do.  But if you've worked there  
or know
something of how they operate, I'd be grateful if you could contact  
me.

(Just being a customer isn't enough - I am too)

I need to ask a fairly basic question about an aspect of their  
operations -
I wont be asking you to break any confidences and its not for any  
competing

project.

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0422 985 585
02-4577-4898
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
http://afpwebworks.com
Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month




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Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div

[Andrew Stewart]

I agree with you on pretty much everything. My point is that I wish  
there was more detailed analysis of users with JS etc.


Lets take the example of a social networking site that earns revenue  
by pay per click advertising. If we assume that maybe 10% of users  
don't have JS, it is also possible that these users are not going to  
be heavy internet users if they are using outdated browsers an using  
an inferior (non-JS) version of the site. Therefore, it is probable  
that more than 90% of the site's revenue would be coming from the 90%  
of users with JS. In other words "visitors with JS installed" might  
not be a useful metric. I accept that mobile phones and many other  
things could also account for visitors without JS, but that just  
proves my point further that the simple with-and-without-JS metric is  
not that informative. I would be happy if I was proved wrong and that  
these 10% of people with abnormal browsers did account for 10% of  
revenue, but I doubt it.


How about measuring the percentage of the total time spent on the site  
spent by users with JS, or better still, the percentage of clicks on  
adds by users with JS?


I agree that it is hard to fault progressive enhancement, but what  
about when we get on to flash, silverlight etc. With those  
technologies, providing a html alternative probably adds significant  
developer time.


I am sure we could all find great examples of sites that are successes  
and are great examples of progressive enhancement, but I would be  
really interested if anyone knew of a site that failed because it  
didn't cater for users without JS or flash.


On 15 Jun 2009, at 14:48, Paul Novitski wrote:


At 6/14/2009 06:02 PM, Andrew Stewart wrote:

If you can improve the user experience using JS (why else would you  
be
spending time on it) then you must accept that the user experience  
for

those 10% without JS is going to be worse and hence they are less
likely to buy from you, or give you some kind of revenue. Is it  
really

worth spending all this effort to cater for users that in the end may
only account for a tiny percentage of sales?



Conversely, if you start out by building a robust site with server- 
side scripting, and then add JavaScript as an enhancement on top,  
you'll be spending the extra time catering to those with JavaScript,  
not those without, and by your way of thinking those are the folks  
who are more likely to bring in more revenue, so the financial model  
would fit the demographics.


However, if someone's not using JavaScript on your site, they  
probably aren't using it on sites in general. Rather than compare  
their likelihood to buy with others of your customers who do run JS,  
compare their experience on your site with their experience on other  
sites -- the folks you're competing with. If someone is driven to  
your site because the competing sites are broken or clumsy without  
JS, then making your own site work competently without JS is a  
revenue generator. If you try to cut costs by shutting out that 10%  
or whatever of potential buyers, you're simply driving them to  
competitors whose sites they can use. I don't see the bottom-line  
benefit of that.


Ten percent, by the way, is an enormous number.

I mean, you have to start out by building a robust site -- that's  
bottom-line, right? You don't go into it with a goal to build a  
broken one. Is it more time-consuming to build a site that works  
with and without JavaScript than to build one that breaks without  
it? Where would the time-savings come in the development plan? If  
you're validating a form with JS, you still have to validate it  
server-side so you don't invite hackers. If you're using Ajax to  
update the server, you still need to write those server-side modules  
to receive, validate, and process the data; whether the update  
mechanism is an HTML form submit or a JavaScript XMLHttpRequest you  
still have to write the same core back-end code. We can certainly  
imagine pages such as drag-&-drop layout modifiers whose user  
interfaces would likely have to be radically different if pulled off  
completely server-side, but by far most websites have user  
interfaces that can look very similar if not identical without  
JavaScript; it's just their response time that isn't as  
instantaneous when it comes to, say, forms morphing as the user  
drills into the options. That said, client-server round trips on  
broadband are pretty fast these days and people are accustomed to  
waiting for page refreshes on most sites, so I don't think most  
people would consider that aspect to be a sale-killer. I don't see,  
for example, Amazon.com suffering for lack of sales because people  
are too impatient to wait for page refreshes.




I am not saying this is
definitely the case, but plain statistics about how many users have  
JS

or flash 

Re: [WSG] functionality without JavaScript [WAS: returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div]

[Andrew Stewart]

I think the point is if you should be spending time developing  
something with a bad user experience that hardly anyone will use. Yes  
you could implement a spreadsheet app with tons of page requests, but  
the user experience would be so bad that people probably wouldn't want  
to use it.


On 15 Jun 2009, at 16:42, nedlud wrote:


Out of curiosity, what sort of feature are you talking about that
can't be done server side (ie, *without* AJAX)?

I'll confess to relying heavily on server side JS on some projects,
but I did so because I knew those apps would be used exclusively on an
intranet where the SOE was known to support JS. The user experience is
definitely enhanced from the use of client side JS (it was a kind of
online spread sheet used by the finance dept), but it's nothing I
couldn't have done, with a little work, on the server side (and *lots*
of page submissions).

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 4:29 PM, raven wrote:

Hi.


If a website client of yours hired
you to manage an actual storefront and you
arbitrarily slammed the door in the face of every
100th, 200th, or even 1000th customer, how long
do you think would you keep your job?
If some js feature bring me 100 costumers i can effort loose 1,  
which don't support js.

Another question that i try to keep all of them, if it's possible.

Graceful degradation is better than nothing, but progressive  
enhancement rocks.

ACK. It rocks.
Problem:
Often some js feature (AJAX for example) is key to the project.
Than first i develop server side scripts and front end, which  
depends on AJAX.
And after i finish, if there is enough time and budget is OK, i  
modify front end (if needed) and write additional server side  
scripts so user may work without js.

If code is good — add such accessibility feature is not a problem.
But if you get project with low budget and where deadline was  
yesterday, than accessibility must first be sacrificed. If project  
stay alive — you may return to this question.
Yes, progressive enhancement rocks. But, if don't use it wisely,  
you'll starve.



Also I do support witches, but that's off-topic.
Sorry for my English. I need more practice. Much much more  
practice. :)


Regards.
Raven aka Silent Imp.


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Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div

[Andrew Stewart]

On 15 Jun 2009, at 10:05, matt andrews wrote:


Here's a number for you: when I added JS usage stats gathering about a
year ago to a large site I was working on, I was quite surprised to
find that 10% (rounded to the nearest percent) of unique users were
not running Javascript.  This was one of the major net dating sites in
Europe, with > 1 million membership, so it was a fairly mainstream (as
opposed to tech/webdev) user population.

Many mobile browsers don't support JS. Many corporate networks enforce
JS being turned off.  Search bots typically don't support JS.  Short
answer: you cannot rely on JS being there.



If you can improve the user experience using JS (why else would you be  
spending time on it) then you must accept that the user experience for  
those 10% without JS is going to be worse and hence they are less  
likely to buy from you, or give you some kind of revenue. Is it really  
worth spending all this effort to cater for users that in the end may  
only account for a tiny percentage of sales? I am not saying this is  
definitely the case, but plain statistics about how many users have JS  
or flash or siverlight etc don't tell you the full story. If a  
developer has X amount of hours to spend on a site, then it is  
possible that the most effective way to increase revenue of that site  
might be to forget about people without JS etc and just create the  
best experience for the majority of internet users.


Sorry if this sounds a bit like heresy.



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Re: [WSG] valid meta tags

[Andrew Cunningham]

Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:



W3C suggests using "meta http-equiv='content-language'" in a subtly 
different way from the "lang" and "xml:lang" attributes:




There are important differences between "meta 
http-equiv='content-language'" and "lang" and "xml:lang" attributes


the "lang" and "xml:lang" attributes can only contain a single language

"meta http-equiv='content-language'" can contain a list of languages

--
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~andrewc/
http://www.openroad.net.au
http://www.vicnet.net.au
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Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars

[Andrew Maben]

!

I'll let others answer your main question. But as for the invisible  
URL, you might point out that this will make it all the easier for  
phishers to fake the site. And anyway, AFIK the URL will still be  
available in the browser's history.


BTW, has anyone come up with a bulletproof way to tell a client his  
stupid idea is stupid? Without losing the account?


Andrew

Sent from my iPod

On May 4, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Frogspoon  wrote:


Good morning all,

I have a quick question regarding browser toolbars and  
functionality. I have a client who is requesting a web application  
(online form) be built where they will lose some if not all browser  
navigation control and functionality, much like you would see on a  
Internet banking page. I'm against the idea personally but wanted to  
find out if there are any such standards out there that strongly  
encourage you keep these on your web page for usability and  
accessibility reasons. Finally, they wanted to the URL to be hidden  
as well, surely this is not recommended??


I'd appreciate any help on these questions,

Cheers

Frog


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Re: [WSG] Where is browser compatibility in wcag?

[Andrew Cunningham]

I tend to follow a hierarchy of needs.


At the most basic level, the text needs to be correctly rendered.


This implies that a web site may be dependant on specific versions of 
operating systems or browsers. This is the reality of text layout/font 
rendering systems.



In theory supporting older browsers is good, but if the text will never 
be displayed or rendered in older browsers, the exercise in supporting 
older browsers becomes pointless and meaningless.



Andrew



Matthew Pennell wrote:

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] 
<mailto:aboeh...@addictivemedia.com.au>> wrote:



I went through WCAG 1 and WCAG 2, and I expected an appropriate
guideline to
show up under Priority 1 (or Level A), but nothing. Or am I missing
something in the obscure wording of the document that is WCAG?


A user's choice of technology is not an accessibility issue. If people 
want to view content on the web, they have to make sure they are using 
suitable hardware and software - using a 10-year-old browser doesn't 
qualify, IMO. Should I be able to view a site on my Commodore 64?


- Matthew


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Andrew Cunningham
Senior Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~andrewc/
http://www.openroad.net.au
http://www.vicnet.net.au
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au



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Re: [WSG] IE7 CSS fix

[Andrew Maben]

On Apr 2, 2009, at 9:49 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Sorry, but this Norwegian can't see the point in being stuck in the  
past

just because someone else thinks that's "good enough".
Life's too short, and after having worked in front of these screens  
for

nearly thirty years I'm getting a bit bored and impatient.


+ 1 Georg

The only good enough is excellent.

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Andrew Maben]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:33 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


differentiation with
superior products or marketing


ROFL!

(sorry, Russ)

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Andrew Maben]

Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds  
weight to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it  
just makes a weak point weaker.


To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as  
to the context of "user benefit", "call to action". I find it useful  
to remember that the common conception of "visitors" "coming to" your  
site has it backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of  
allowing your site to visit their browser. As such it is probably  
better, and certainly more polite, to restrict the scope of one's  
calls to action to the site, and leave decisions about the browser  
environment to the user.


As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the  
opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while  
broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand.


Respectfully.

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."



On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote:


On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote:
The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a  
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and  
developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for  
said company.  While on its face this may appear as a user  
benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and  
its creator.


Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user  
benefit? You've got to be kidding me.


While some may be inclined to include a "favorites" link on a web  
page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function  
requires the user to support a proprietary process as well.


Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's  
possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively  
affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures  
vendors in positive ways, more often than not leading to  
standardisation. If vendors sat around holding hands trying to  
reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers,  
innovation would halt altogether.



Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Andrew Maben]

I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for "this list", but on  
my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously  
our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important  
part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise  
to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes  
educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a "new  
medium" and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or  
counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on  
"banner blindness", naive site owners often still want banner-like  
graphics.


In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to  
explain "marketing" to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years)  
the "call to action" falls *outside* the "vendor" environment (the  
site) and into the "customer" environment (the browser). As mentioned  
by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user,  
should s/he choose.


Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best  
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage  
a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these  
provide value to both "vendor" and "customer" - and are not limited  
to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant.


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."





On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:




-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does  
it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps  
everything

else?

Steve



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Andrew Maben]

I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for "this list", but on  
my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously  
our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important  
part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise  
to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes  
educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a "new  
medium" and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or  
counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on  
"banner blindness", naive site owners often still want banner-like  
graphics.


In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to  
explain "marketing" to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years)  
the "call to action" falls *outside* the "vendor" environment (the  
site) and into the "customer" environment (the browser). As mentioned  
by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user,  
should s/he choose.


Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best  
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage  
a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these  
provide value to both "vendor" and "customer" - and are not limited  
to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant.


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."


(Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version)

On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:




-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does  
it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps  
everything

else?

Steve



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Andrew Maben]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not.
Or quit, or be fired.  Those are the options.


If you have not been hired for your expertise, yes. Otherwise you are  
honor-bound to present the arguments, not just blindly obey -  
naturally if the boss chooses to ignore you then you have to do as  
you are told. But if you are working for someone who insists on  
acting against his own interests you'll be out of a job soon enough  
anyway


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Andrew Maben]

The argument continues to be shaky at best. "...compel a user..." in  
particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the  
realities of the web as a medium.


I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is  
this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used  
feature? I would guess that the answer is "no" in both cases - but by  
all means prove me wrong!


Andrew

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


As was mentioned, it's a "call to action".  Those who are familiar
with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
jumping through the hoops the browsers require.

It's the same principle as putting "Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
more info."  Instead of just putting "918-878-8787".

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

designer wrote:

Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to  
favourites?

As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a
system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.

In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two
reasons why you might want to have such a feature.

1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their  
browser has

built in.

... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't
know how to go back to them.

2. To cover up a "Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to
your bookmarks, pretty please" message with something resembling
something useful.

... which is just tacky.

Are there any other reasons?

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Andrew Maben]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:

It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to  
action.


But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser  
functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what  
it is.


So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."


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Re: [WSG] Testing in IE7 both Win XP and Vista

[Andrew Cunningham]

testing on one should be enough.


Athough Vista has more fonts, the core fonts exist on both systems.


Any font differences (between versions 3.0.6 and 5.0 of core fonts) will 
only affect lesser used languages, and are mostly likely to be 
irrelevant in this case.



michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote:


The only difference that you are likely to see is going to be due to a
different set of default fonts - iirc a few more were introduced with
Vista.

Regards,
Mike

 


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Peter Mount
Sent: 15 March 2009 01:07
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Testing in IE7 both Win XP and Vista

Hello

Is it necessary to test web sites in IE7 on both Win XP and Vista? Or is
it good enough to just test in IE7 on Vista?

I'm just worried about IE7 rendering differently on Win XP compared to
Vista.

Thanks


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--
Andrew Cunningham
Senior Manager, Research and Development
Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph: +61-3-8664-7430
Fax: +61-3-9639-2175

Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au
Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~andrewc/
http://www.openroad.net.au
http://www.vicnet.net.au
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au



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Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest

[Andrew Maben]

Whatever the arguments may be pro or con the original post, once  
again the petty whining about it has wasted considerably more of my  
time, and tried my patience infinitely more than that original post.


Um, doesn't this group have moderators? Moderators who have  
repeatedly shown themselves to be models of tact and good judgement?


If you don't like a post - delete it and get on with your life. Thank  
you.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."


P.S. Personally I feel the fact that someone is making an open source  
standards-compliant CMS is to be applauded. Very obviously YMMV.



On Mar 16, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:

I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If  
everyone

on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is
prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of  
content. I
don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the  
numerous

Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or  posts, and I do
think you're over-reacting just a tad.


Agreed...it's good to know about new products.  It takes
one second to delete the product.  I'll be everyone wastes
significantly more time than that every day...

Rick


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]

On Behalf Of Mark Harris
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest

Glen Wallis wrote:

Am I the only person on this list who is sick of the constant and

blatant

advertising for this Content Management System? Don't we have rules

against

this? If so, they are not being enforced.



I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If  
everyone

on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is
prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of  
content. I
don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the  
numerous

Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or  posts, and I do
think you're over-reacting just a tad.

Cheers

~mark


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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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03/15/09 14:07:00




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Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest

[Andrew Duck]

Couldn't agree more. 

Regards, 
Andrew 


andrew duck 
executive director | asia-pacific | quiqcorp.com 
155 high street | po box 6363 | christchurch 8011 new zealand 
p +64 3 341 7692 | f +64 3 341 7693 | m +64 212 934 985 (nz) | e 
andrew.d...@quiqcorp.com 

- Original Message - 
From: kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Monday, 16 March, 2009 5:14:27 PM GMT +07:00 Bangkok, Hanoi, Jakarta 
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest 

I agree with this bloke - it's starting to look like blatant advertising. 

www.humdingerdesigns.co.uk 


-Original Message- 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Glen Wallis 
Sent: 16 March 2009 08:10 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Subject: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest 

Am I the only person on this list who is sick of the constant and blatant 
advertising for this Content Management System? Don't we have rules against 
this? If so, they are not being enforced. 

-Original Message- 
From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:w...@webstandardsgroup.org] 
Sent: Monday, 16 March 2009 6:42 PM 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Subject: [BULK] WSG Digest 
Importance: Low 

* 
WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST 
* 


From: Sigurd Magnusson  
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:10:09 +1300 
Subject: Re: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back? 

Most websites we build at SilverStripe have IE 6.0 as a minimum, and even 
then, we're unpatiently anticipating the time when we can drop IE 6. 

FireFox (2), Safari (3), Chrome (latest) users are more encouraged to keep 
up to the latest versions, and have more aggressive update mechanisms, so we 
just use the bracketed versions as minimum. 

We have not given thought to Netscape for years. 

The same applies to when we're working on the administration interface of 
our open source SilverStripe CMS (www.silverstripe.org.) 

Cheers, 
Sig. 


On 15/03/2009, at 8:32 PM,  wrote: 

> * 
> WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST 
> * 
> 
> 
> From: Brett Patterson  
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:19:00 -0400 
> Subject: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back? 
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> I was just reading from a book that talked about some code that would 
> not work in Internet Explorer 3.0, but would in Internet Explorer 4.0 
> and later, and Netscape Navigator 3.0 and later. This brought up a 
> question that I could not find direct and consistent answers while 
> searching the Internet...so, how far back would it be acceptable to 
> design for, when it comes to backwards browser compatibility? I have 
> been told from some sites, that Internet Explorer 5.0/later and 
> Netscape Navigator 4.0/later, as well as Firefox 1.5/later and Opera 
> 6.0/later. Is this correct? 
> 
> -- 

* 
From: James Jeffery  
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:44:56 + 
Subject: Blueprint & Grids 

After reading 'Transcending CSS' I have learnt that grids are not a 
replacement for table based layouts (as has been drummed into me by so 
called evangelists on IRC). I understand the importance of grids in print 
and non-web media and now want to start using them. 

I've started using Blueprint. I quickily scrolled through the CSS file and 
got a grasp for it. 

My problem is this. In the book I am seeing examples where they are using 4 
and 5 columns. I have developed a layout, which uses the divine proportion. 
So far I have the container, and 2 divs. Now, within these grids do I use 
more columns to go with the layout and structure of the design? And if so, 
how can I overlap? For example, in the "main-content" area I might have 5 
columns, now lets say using Blueprint and my own CSS I want to use 4 columns 
for the content and 1 for meta date per article. How do I use all 4 and 
leave the one? 

Sounds like a silly, vaugue, question ... I know. But I'm a little taken by 
this and am eager to learn because I feel this is going to greatly boost 
productivity. 

Thanks 

-- 
James Jeffery 
Web Developer and iPhone Applications Developer 
m: 07964722061 


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Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest

[Andrew Boyd]

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:14 PM,  wrote:

> I agree with this bloke - it's starting to look like blatant advertising.
>
> www.humdingerdesigns.co.uk
>
>
and this response is brought to you by BarCampCanberra2™
BarCampCanberra2™ Twice the Fun, Twice the Learning, Twice the Excitement!

http://barcamp.org/BarCampCanberra2

Cheers, Andrew

-- 
---
Andrew Boyd
http://uxaustralia.com.au -- UX Australia Conference Canberra 2009
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss
http://govux.org -- the government user experience forum
http://resilientnationaustralia.org Resilient Nation Australia


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Re: [WSG] Chrome now higher traffic than IE

[Andrew Harris]

hmmm - this is not reflected on our main site... from the past three days:

1.  Internet Explorer   642,173 61.98%  
2.  Firefox 286,669 27.67%  
3.  Safari  89,030  8.59%   
4.  Chrome  11,195  1.08%

which is, I imagine, par for a 'mainstream' site.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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[WSG] Semantics: Microformats, RDFa

[Andrew Maben]

There seem to be some Microformats proponents on the list, but I  
don't recall much mention of RDFa.


I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on their relative merits, both  
immediately and in the longer term?


Thanks,


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."







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Re: [WSG] IE and the element

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 24, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:


 the point is that it *behaves*
like a button. In other words its purpose is to provide a specific  
kind of

functionality


and if I remember correctly, the functionality to be provided as  
originally stated was a link to a "next page". I'd suggest that that  
specific functionality - linking - is adequately provided by the  
anchor tag, and it is inappropriate to use a button (of any kind) to  
provide that functionality.


(And I believe it's irrelevant that various screens specific to an OS  
use buttons to progress from screen to screen, e.g. MacOS's use of a  
"Continue" button during software installation. If it's a web site  
provide a consistent, standard *web* interface).


$0.02


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."





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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:


On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ben Lau  wrote:

Hi all,

Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs  
around your

HTML document?


No.

p.s. ignore all the long-winded answers.


Agreed.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."





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Re: [WSG] friends? - was( Failed A Job :()

[Andrew Maben]

On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:40 PM, James Jeffery wrote:


Some people are rich because they are tight.


This has strayed a long way from standards...! But I just have to add  
to the above. Having been the beneficiary of extraordinary acts of  
kindness from truly poor (financially - but how rich in spirit)  
people while traveling, I've come to the conclusion that many people  
are generous because they are poor, and its corollary, many people  
are tight because they are rich.


Now back to work...


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
art.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."







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