[Zen] Re: breaking through

[billsmart]

Edgar, Edgar, Edgar...

Qualities to not evolve for a purpose.  That would be engineering, not 
evolution.  New qualities appear primarily by random mutation.  If the quality 
is advantageous (gives the organism an advantage over competing organisms) or 
at least is not a disadvantage it is likely it will be passed on to succeeding 
generations.  If it is a disadvantage it is less likely that it will be passed 
on to succeeding generations.

There is no purpose here, as in there is no goal.  There is only selection 
based on survive-ability.

That's the theory anyway...

...Bill!   

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Mike and Merle and Bill!
> 
> Depends on how you define purpose. The evolutionary purpose of the heart is 
> certainly what Merle says it is... That's why a heart evolved...
> 
> Most arguments are about definitions...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2012, at 6:49 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Merle,
> > 
> > Is this rerally the "purpose" of the heart, or is 'purpose' something we've 
> > super-imposed on top of it. You could say that the purpose of the heart is 
> > also to simply convert de-oxygenated blood into oxygenated blood. All our 
> > vital organs (brain, skin, liver etc) keep us alive and therefore deserve 
> > the title of 'keeping us alive' (What I'm driving at is a holistic picture, 
> > and even the simplest part of us has a 'purpose' to keep us alive - even 
> > bacteria!). It's also interesting to note that 'we' (in terms of ego) don't 
> > have any control over these organs - they just function without any 
> > input/control from us at all (just try holding your breath or not going to 
> > the loo!). If you really meditate and focus on the breath you'll often find 
> > that it feels like the universe is breathing us, rather than the other way 
> > around.
> > 
> > Mike
> > From: Merle Lester 
> > To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"  
> > Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2012, 11:16
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: breaking through
> > 
> >  
> > the purpose of your heart to keep beating is to keep you alive...merle
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > Merle,
> > 
> > Life has no purpose. If you see a purpose it is you that is projecting that 
> > there.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Â bill..look under a microscope... my art is chaos..but then so is a 
> > > cell...and it is not...it functions for a purpose..merle
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Nonsense! If reality had no structure and was completely random and 
> > > chaotic we'd all be dead!
> > > 
> > > That's so obviously true that to deny it is grounds for the luny bin!
> > > 
> > > Sheeesh!
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > >Edgar and Merle,
> > > >
> > > >First of all Edgar is referencing a typo, one of several I noticed after 
> > > >I posted. That should read "It's been closed in by structure", not 'my 
> > > >structure'. Mea culpa.
> > > >
> > > >Edgar's structure is closed because it has structure. Structure defines 
> > > >and limits. The only truly open system is an unstructured system - like 
> > > >reality, like chaos.
> > > >
> > > >Reality does not include illusions. Reality does not support illusions. 
> > > >Illusions are just what they are defined as: illusion, not real. 
> > > >Merriam-Webster Online has an interesting definition: deception.
> > > >
> > > >Definition of ILLUSION (Merriam-Webster Online)
> > > >
> > > >1
> > > >a obsolete : the action of deceiving
> > > >b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : 
> > > >misapprehension (2) : an instance of such deception
> > > >2
> > > >a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something that 
> > > >deceives or misleads intellectually
> > > >b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to 
> > > >cause misinterpretation of its actual nature (2) : hallucination 1 (3) : 
> > > >a pattern capable of reversible perspective
> > > >
> > > >Reality has no boundaries. Illusions deceive you into believing there 
> > > >are boundaries - like structure and logic.
> > > >
> > > >...Bill! 
> > > >
> > > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Bill! and Merle,
> > > >> 
> > > >> I don't understand what Bill! means when he says "MY mind is closed in 
> > > >> HIS structure."
> > > >> 
> > > >> And my theory of reality is not "a closed structure" because it 
> > > >> includes everything that exists including illusion. It's Bill!'s 
> > > >> theory that is closed and dualistic because it excludes illusion as 
> > > >> part of reality... Thus it imposes boundaries that do not actually 
> > > >> exist...
> > > >> 
> > > >> Edgar
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> On Sep 5, 2012, at 1:05 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
> > > >> 
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > i understand what edgar is saying..are you suggesting he is in 
> > > 

[Zen] Re: clarification of the bowl

[billsmart]

JMJM,

Well you have succeeded, at least with me.  I often times think you are so 
wishy-washy you are nobody...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺妙精明 （JMJM）  wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> You are still trying to show me that you are somebody.  Sorry.
> 
> I have come to realized that only when we realized that we are truly 
> nobody, then we could be everybody.  Then we see the wisdom in everything.
> 
> jm
> 
> On 9/5/2012 11:31 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > JMJM,
> >
> > Thanks for your post. I also posted something recently that you 
> > probably had not read before you posted this. That post mirrors some 
> > of what you say, only refers to style rather than perspective.
> >
> > Thanks...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
> > 覺妙精明 （JMJM）  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Bill and all,
> > >
> > > Thank you for responding. If I may share some perspectives
> > >
> > > Some of us grew up as cactus in the desert. Some of us grew up as
> > > orchid in a pot. One can not truly experience the other. No one truly
> > > qualify to judge another. Yet our ego still do.
> > >
> > > The practice of Chan is to focus inward, utilizing external 
> > information,
> > > so to enhance our spirit and liberate our lives. Chan always emphasize
> > > the importance of not to judge externally the practice of others,
> > > especially when comes to dharma, especially when they are forms in the
> > > first place.
> > >
> > > All Buddhists know the basic practice is to detach from ego and detach
> > > from dharma. This suggestion from Buddha, is not for me to point out
> > > who is who, but for each of us to reflect on.
> > >
> > > This is the reasons why sutra are written in riddle like languages. So
> > > that we would not pick sides, then we could sleep on it, reflect
> > > inwardly and wake up from our dream.
> > >
> > > The simplest suggestion I like to make is try to begin by seeing the
> > > value of others, accept them with faith, then someday upon our
> > > awakening, we will realize that all are valuable, all are similar and
> > > all end up in the same place. We label that as oneness.
> > >
> > > We argue, because we don't have the whole picture.
> > >
> > > jm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/5/2012 8:24 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > >
> > > > JMJM,
> > > >
> > > > You sense correctly. I am trying to 'help' Merle by disagreeing with
> > > > Edgar. It's the same as if Edgar told Merle to run out into the 
> > street
> > > > without looking and I disagreed with his advice and told her so.
> > > >
> > > > I am not a teacher though and I've given up trying to intervene.
> > > > Merle's a big girl and she's ultimately responsible for herself so 
> > she
> > > > along can decide what's best for her.
> > > >
> > > > I'll still voice my disagreement with Edgar because I think his views
> > > > on zen are misleading at best and counterproductive or outright
> > > > detrimental at worst.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >  
> > ,
> > > > 覺妙精æËÅ"Ž 
> > > > （JMJM）  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I sense Bill's continual insistence of his disagreement. Bill! is
> > > > > attached to it. Especially when Bill! is trying so hard to 
> > "help" Merle
> > > > > by disagreeing with Edgar. LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/5/2012 8:39 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kristopher,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You keep making excuses for Bill!'s delusions!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Disagreement is not "a form of suffering" unless you are attached
> > > > to it...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sep 5, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Comfortably stuck in cause and effect, you ignore the 
> > sledgehammer!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> It appears to me that Bill! is not denying food is required to
> > > > > >> maintain a body, that forms appear to maintain forms (no 
> > independent
> > > > > >> origination) - he is denying this assumption of "have to" - this
> > > > > >> neediness that goes with it. You don't need to live, and 
> > ultimately
> > > > > >> won't (impermanence). When hungry, eat if you are able. When 
> > this is
> > > > > >> perceived as need (AKA - lack), suffering will arise over your
> > > > > >> ability to do so, over thoughts of death. Your needs, your 
> > sense of
> > > > > >> lack, your suffering.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Disagreement itself, a form of suffering. Misunderstanding, a
> > > > form of
> > > > > >> recognition. Same.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> KG
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On 9/5/2012 10:14 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> O, for God's sakes Bill!
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>

[Zen] Re: logic is an art form

[billsmart]

Logic plays a big part in engineering, not art...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
>  bill..artists can be logical too... logic plays a big part in my art...merle
> 
> 
>   
> Everyone,
> 
> I try to communicate with people on this forum in the way I think would be 
> best to reach them.  In Zen that's called 'skillful means'.  I sometimes 
> refer to it as 'using all the tools in my toolbox'.
> 
> I communicate with Edgar with logic and long exegeses because I believe that 
> is the only 'tool' he believes is valid - logic and understanding.  He in my 
> opinion is a good example of the saying 'when all you have is a hammer 
> everything looks like a nail'.  Logic is his hammer and he want's to apply it 
> to everything.  I believe it is an inappropriate tool to apply to zen, 
> especially if that's the only tool you use.
> 
> I communicate with Anthony with humor because I have seen him respond well to 
> that.
> 
> I communicate with Kris and Mike using zen metaphors and that seems to work 
> well.
> 
> I thought Merle, seeing the way she posted and being an artist, would respond 
> better to metaphors than to logic and dissertations, but I may have misread 
> that one.
> 
> Anyway what I want everyone to know is that when I post my long dissertations 
> to Edgar it is specifically tailored for and primarily directed at him.  I 
> know it's not appropriate for everyone so don't judge me too harshly.  This 
> style is certainly not the one I am most comfortable with, but is one I can 
> employ.
> 
> If anyone specifically addresses me in a post I will respond.  I will also 
> respond to posts in which I'm not addressed if I think I have something to 
> add.  When I post I usually address them to someone specific, and use the 
> style I think is the best way to communicate to them.  It probably won't suit 
> everyone.
> 
> Like I said I have many tools in my toolbox, but am more skillful and 
> comfortable with some than others.
> 
> ...Bill!
>






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Re: [Zen] Bill!'s Posts to Edgar

[billsmart]

Yes, sadly that's the way it seems...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
>  
> Wise choice, because money always prevails over quality.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Friday, 7 September 2012, 16:16
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Bill!'s Posts to Edgar
> 
> 
>   
> Anthony,
> 
> I communicate with Ben Bernanke by practicing quantitative easing. I 
> communicate with you by practicing qualitative easing..Bill! 
> 
> --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> >  
> > How do you communicate with Ben Benanke, who, like you say, is a good 
> > religion practitioner, because he creates a lot of money out of thin air?
> >  
> > Anthony
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2012, 12:20
> > Subject: [Zen] Bill!'s Posts to Edgar
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Everyone,
> > 
> > I try to communicate with people on this forum in the way I think would be 
> > best to reach them. In Zen that's called 'skillful means'. I sometimes 
> > refer to it as 'using all the tools in my toolbox'.
> > 
> > I communicate with Edgar with logic and long exegeses because I believe 
> > that is the only 'tool' he believes is valid - logic and understanding. He 
> > in my opinion is a good example of the saying 'when all you have is a 
> > hammer everything looks like a nail'. Logic is his hammer and he want's to 
> > apply it to everything. I believe it is an inappropriate tool to apply to 
> > zen, especially if that's the only tool you use.
> > 
> > I communicate with Anthony with humor because I have seen him respond well 
> > to that.
> > 
> > I communicate with Kris and Mike using zen metaphors and that seems to work 
> > well.
> > 
> > I thought Merle, seeing the way she posted and being an artist, would 
> > respond better to metaphors than to logic and dissertations, but I may have 
> > misread that one.
> > 
> > Anyway what I want everyone to know is that when I post my long 
> > dissertations to Edgar it is specifically tailored for and primarily 
> > directed at him. I know it's not appropriate for everyone so don't judge me 
> > too harshly. This style is certainly not the one I am most comfortable 
> > with, but is one I can employ.
> > 
> > If anyone specifically addresses me in a post I will respond. I will also 
> > respond to posts in which I'm not addressed if I think I have something to 
> > add. When I post I usually address them to someone specific, and use the 
> > style I think is the best way to communicate to them. It probably won't 
> > suit everyone.
> > 
> > Like I said I have many tools in my toolbox, but am more skillful and 
> > comfortable with some than others.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] christian

[billsmart]

Merle,

I don't know why what I wrote below is not clear.  The religions of 
Christianity and Islam are responsible for inciting and encouraging people to 
commit atrocities.  And that fact continues to this day.

You close your post below with "Right marches on".  I am just adding so does 
Wrong.  'Right' does not exist without 'Wrong'.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  meaning what?..clarify please..merle
> 
> 
>   
> KG and Merle,
> 
> I agree it's people that commit the horrors, but in the case I was talking 
> about it's at the behest and support of their religions (Christianity and 
> Islam in this case).
> 
> ...Bill! 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  you betcha KG..that's it..people do the "dirty work"..merle
> >   
> >  'Christianity' doesn't commit atrocities, or kindnesses. People do. 
> > Regardless of what they call themselves, the ones who commit atrocities are 
> > the one who think as divisively and with as much certainty regarding others 
> > as as you do below.
> > 
> > Right marches on.
> > 
> > KG
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 9/8/2012 12:32 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > 
> >   
> > >Merle,
> > >
> > >Christianity also conducted 20 or more crusades into the
> >   lands controlled by Islamic people that were responsible
> >   for countless horrors in the name of Jesus and 'universal
> >   love'.
> > >
> > >...Bill!
> > >
> > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>  christianity delivers hope and  universal love.
> > >> the teachings are profound and deep
> > >> open your heart..and let the sun shine in!
> > >>  merle
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> On 9/7/2012 6:57 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > >> > Christianity is the biggest scam on the planet
> >   because it promises 
> > >> > everything and delivers nothing!
> > >> 
> > >> All appears so, when one seeks from other.
> > >> 
> > >> KG
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you
> >   recently have read or are reading! Talk about it
> >   today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] christian

[billsmart]

Kris,

I'm not saying *I* believe all that bullshit.  I'm saying I do believe  *they* 
believe it.  *They* being the Christians and Muslims that participate in that 
kind of thing.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey  wrote:
>
> Then you buy into (aka -believe) in that sort of mindless BS every bit 
> as much as they do, albeit from the sidelines where you can point your 
> finger and vicariously share their self-righteousness without 
> recrimination! *L*
> 
> KG
> 
> 
> On 9/8/2012 3:53 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > KG and Merle,
> >
> > I agree it's people that commit the horrors, but in the case I was 
> > talking about it's at the behest and support of their religions 
> > (Christianity and Islam in this case).
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Â you betcha KG..that's it..people do the "dirty work"..merle
> > > Â
> > > Â 'Christianity' doesn't commit atrocities, or kindnesses. People 
> > do. Regardless of what they call themselves, the ones who commit 
> > atrocities are the one who think as divisively and with as much 
> > certainty regarding others as as you do below.
> > >
> > > Right marches on.
> > >
> > > KG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/8/2012 12:32 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > Â
> > > >Merle,
> > > >
> > > >Christianity also conducted 20 or more crusades into the
> > > lands controlled by Islamic people that were responsible
> > > for countless horrors in the name of Jesus and 'universal
> > > love'.
> > > >
> > > >...Bill!
> > > >
> > > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > , Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>  christianity delivers hope and  universal love.
> > > >> the teachings are profound and deep
> > > >> open your heart..and let the sun shine in!
> > > >> Â merle
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 9/7/2012 6:57 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > >> > Christianity is the biggest scam on the planet
> > > because it promises
> > > >> > everything and delivers nothing!
> > > >>
> > > >> All appears so, when one seeks from other.
> > > >>
> > > >> KG
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you
> > > recently have read or are reading! Talk about it
> > > today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Â  Â http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>






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[Zen] Pulp Fiction

[billsmart]

I watched a rerun of the movie PULP FICTION last night.  It was GREAT!

Especially after all the discussions about Purpose, Karma, Cause-and-Effect and 
Chaos.

...Bill!







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[Zen] The 'Model' of Physicality...

[billsmart]

Of course this guy couldn't even tell a live cat from a dead one without
peeking...
 

Re: [Zen] Signing Off - For Now

[billsmart]

Edgar,

Well, that's just another example of how you and I differ.

When I'm on the Zen Forum I'm not counting seconds or practicing zen.

I'm on the Zen Forum.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> Interesting. I count EVERY second of my time on the Zen Forum as doing Zen...
> :-)
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 9, 2012, at 4:21 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > Unfortunately I do not count a lot of my time spent on the Yahoo! Zen Forum 
> > as practicing zen, or even talking about zen. 
> > 
> > But I do enjoy it!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > > 
> > > So you admit other things are more important than Zen!?
> > > :-)
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sep 8, 2012, at 5:51 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > 
> > > > It's almost 5P here and I've been on this computer almost all day. That 
> > > > has to change. I know I got a late start today and did do some other 
> > > > non-Zen Forum and non-Facebook things, but I've spent WAY TOO MUCH time 
> > > > online. I enjoy it, but I enjoy other things more - so I'm calling it a 
> > > > night.
> > > > 
> > > > I've got my routine thrice-weekly 18-hole kinhin scheduled for tomorrow 
> > > > morning so I won't check back here until 3P or 4P tomorrow - my time. 
> > > > That's 3A or 4A USA Central Time...
> > > > 
> > > > Until then...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] Illusion - Change of Term

[billsmart]

Edgar,

I don't like the phrase 'cognitive simulation of reality' although it does 
describe what I'm talking about. It's just too wordy, too complicated. I want a 
plain word or very short phrase. I want a word that better fits into zen which 
is very simple and not complicated. 'Illusion' is of course still the best for 
me but it as I've said seems to be uncomfortable for many others. I guess they 
think if they have 'illusions' they're dumb, but if they think they have 
'cognitive simulations' they're smart (or at least not so dumb). It all seems 
like 'po-TAY-toe, po-TAH-toe' to me.

I've also investigated the term 'perception' which also means what I want to 
convey, but in some dictionaries 'perception' is defined as 'awareness'.  
Although it certainly does include awareness it's a self-awareness, a 
dualistically-based awareness and not the same as the non-dualistically-based 
awareness I call Buddha Nature.  So...that  would probably just introduce 
another instance of confusion or resistance.  It's like Whack-A-Mole.

I like the 'model' term, but have now rejected 'logical' and 'rational' model 
because the thing-a-ma-bob we're talking about is not entirely logical or 
rational. I'm hovering around 'mental model' but the alliteration and the 
sing-song effect of both words having 2 syllables is a little uncomfortable. I 
think I will use it for a while and see how it feels.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> I use the term cognitive simulation of reality for how people model reality 
> in their heads. Every organism operates in reality in terms of and on the 
> basis of its own internal model of reality.
> 
> Functionally it's like a robot which operates on the basis of its own 
> computational model of its environment.
> 
> 
> When you understand how that works it becomes clear that "The reality, the 
> world, that you think you live in is actually entirely in your head."
> 
> Only problem is your head is not entirely in YOUR head.
> 
> Experience is primary, and antecedent to all discrimination...
> 
> However experience manifests consistency, and from that all else follows
> 
> This is fairly easy to understand when speaking of OTHER organisms. It's just 
> basic biology. However then when one tries to understand it from the inside 
> of your own head the understanding becomes much more subtle...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 9, 2012, at 4:59 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > To Anyone Who Cares,
> > 
> > After much reflection and a good round of my thrice-weekly, 
> > regularly-scheduled 18-hole kinhin I've decided to quit using the term 
> > 'illusion'. It is the term I was personally taught and have seen written in 
> > countless books on zen and that I myself have used for over 40 years, but 
> > it seems to conjure up some kind of bad mojo for most of you. I get the 
> > feeling that you think if your are creating 'illusions' that you're doing 
> > something wrong or bad, and that's is definitely not what I want to project.
> > 
> > So...I'm now going to use the term 'model' or 'logical model' or maybe 
> > 'rational model' (I haven't decided which yet). I'm looking for something 
> > that will more palatable to the majority here that seem to have a bad 
> > reaction to the term 'illusion'.
> > 
> > But the meaning I intend to communicate will still be the same...Bill! 
> > 
> >
>





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Re: [Zen] The 'Model' of Physicality...

[billsmart]

Edgar,

What you've stated below is a nice, clean 'mental model', but in my experience 
it's just not how all this really works...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> Nonsense. Everything is exactly as it is in the present moment... The 
> possibilities of the next moment are constrained by the laws of nature 
> because the universe continually computes it's own state of existence and 
> thus it's very existence from moment to moment.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 9, 2012, at 5:29 PM, William Rintala wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I like the idea that at every moment all possibilities exist and that by 
> > extension every moment gives birth to an infinity of possibilities. Some 
> > people say that all possibilities do exist.  That the cat is both alive and 
> > dead at the same time.
> >  
> > Bill not Bill!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it!
> > 
> > 
> > From: billsmart 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sun, September 9, 2012 4:28:12 AM
> > Subject: [Zen] The 'Model' of Physicality...
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Of course this guy couldn't even tell a live cat from a dead one without 
> > peeking...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: suffering

[billsmart]

Kris,

I didn't say 'do zazen with the goal of, or for the purpose of alleviating 
suffering.  I said if you want to alleviate suffering you must drop 
attachments.  To drop attachments you must quit creating dualities (like 
self/other).  And I suggested zazen was a way to do this - realizing Buddha 
Nature - stopping the creation of duality.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey  wrote:
>
> On 9/10/2012 9:04 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > One way to do that is zazen. There are lots of other ways.
> 
> 
> Can't be done. Actions taken against suffering, are themselves forms of 
> suffering as there is attachment to outcome. Intention and expectation.
> 
> Only cessation ends it (by its ceasing to arise), effortlessly. If those 
> other things appear help you realize this, you will do them - so might 
> as well do them with all your heart. It can't hurt, and offers many 
> other benefits.
> 
> KG
>






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[Zen] Re: suffering

[billsmart]

ED,

What I meant was:  Pain is a normal bodily function.  If you alleviate it (like 
taking Valium) it masks the pain but does not really address the source of the 
pain.  If all you want to do is make the pain go away then that's okay.  If 
however you think the pain is an indicator of some problem then you should try 
to look for and address the problem.  I think of it like pain is the messenger, 
and the message might be very important to me.  If you 'kill the messenger' you 
won't know what the message was.

It would be like taking a pill to alleviate hunger or thirst.  Useful 
sometimes?  Maybe.  Use with caution?  Absolutely.  

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill! -
> 
> You response is quite illuminating, but please say more about:"To just
> alleviate pain without attending to its
> source might prove to be problematic."
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> ED,
> 
> That may be so. I don't really know. And if they do it might be
> psychosomatic,
> not that that really matters. Pain is of course an indication that
> somethings
> wrong and needs attention. To just alleviate pain without attending to
> its
> source might be prove to be problematic. That's the case whether it be
> zazen,
> religious beliefs or Valium.
> 
> Pain is real. Suffering (in the way the term is used in Buddhism) is not
> real.
> It's a 'mental model' (aka 'illusion') which is the result of
> attachments which
> are in turn dependent upon the creation of the dualistic concept of
> 'self'.
> 
> That's IMO anyway...
> 
> ,,,BIll!
> 
> 
> 
> > Bill! and Mike,
> >
> > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate
> pain?
> >
> > --ED
>






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[Zen] Re: suffering

[billsmart]

Kris,

'My opinion' is my default 'mental model', or I guess I could call it 'Bill!'s 
mental model'.  It is the default model I use to communicate with others.  Is 
it a better (closer to Reality) 'mental model' than others?  I couldn't claim 
that, but I can say it's the most comfortable for me.

I posted many posts ago about having and using different 'tools in my tool 
bag'.  Another way to say this is that I believe I can communicate using 
different 'mental models' - like the scientific 'mental model' with Edgar, and 
the Christian 'mental model' with Merle, and the Buddhist 'mental model' which 
those on the site who prefer that.

I know I'm just simulating the other 'mental models', like a MAC OS simulating 
a WIN OS to be able to run WIN-specific applications, but I think that's better 
than trying to force everyone to communicate using my default 'mental model' 
all the time.

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey  wrote:
>
> On 9/11/2012 9:23 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > Pain is real. Suffering (in the way the term is used in Buddhism) is 
> > not real. It's a 'mental model' (aka 'illusion') which is the result 
> > of attachments which are in turn dependent upon the creation of the 
> > dualistic concept of 'self'.
> >
> > That's IMO anyway...
> 
> Is the opinion 'real'?
> 
> If so, then 'suffering' as a 'mental mode' is real in the same way. If 
> not, there's no suffering and no opinions of it.
> 
> Either way, these appear. Only the form of expression differs. 
> Real/unreal is just more thinking. No problem. Really. ;)
> 
> KG
>






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Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power

[billsmart]

Edgar,

That's not my understanding of Hui Neng's poem.  My understanding (aka, 
accommodate it in my default mental model)is:

Dust is illusion - Maya.  The mirror is your discriminating, dualistic mind.  
Dust clinging to the mirror is attachment.  The first monk's poem of 'keeping 
the mirror clean' means continually severing attachments.  Hui Neng's poem 'no 
mirror where dust can alight' means  realizing your discriminating, dualistic 
mind is illusory - it's not really there.  Only Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Mike,
> 
> This is a misunderstanding of Hui Neng's poem...
> 
> It's not that the dust has nowhere to settle but that the dust itself is 
> DUSTLESS...
> 
> Meaning that everything in reality is a manifestations of Buddha Nature, even 
> dust.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 13, 2012, at 7:08 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Chris,
> > 
> > >because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete 
> > >as it is
> > 
> > I often ask myself the same thing. Hui-eng's poem was accepted by his 
> > master because he spoke of there being no mirror to polish so there is no 
> > where for the dust to settle. Yet Buddha spoke about people having 
> > different amounts of dust in their eyes. It's not really an either/or 
> > argument (I don't want to end up as a fox for 500 rebirths!). One speaks of 
> > ultimate truth - the other a conventional truth. I'm still largely a 
> > prisoner of conditions, even though I intuitively know that these 
> > conditions are illusionary. But to "just drop them", as so many people here 
> > are want to say, is rather easier to say than actually do. So I keep 
> > polishing, because even though mirror may, or may not, exist - I know that 
> > the dust does. [insert ironic statements here ; )].
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > From: ChrisAustinLane 
> > To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"  
> > Cc: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"  
> > Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 0:38
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power
> > 
> >  
> > I must second this. I have saved an email from you Mike where in you ask 
> > some tormenter if they do not find the world a bit cleaner after a sesshin 
> > (part of the endless words on polishing vs. ceasing). I have not replied 
> > because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete as 
> > it is. Too funny but still. 
> > 
> > I have the sort of live where I generally enjoy the retreat quite a lot, 
> > nothing as hard for me as semi-sincere and semi-aware parenting (alas that 
> > one must see one's flaws as a parent, the gap between preference and 
> > reality, in order to be a decent parent), but they definitely make things 
> > easier; if not by insight at least by spaciousness. 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Austin-Lane
> > Sent from a cell phone
> > 
> > On Sep 12, 2012, at 15:49, mike brown  wrote:
> > 
> >> Merle,
> >> 
> >> Have you never been on a retreat? It's a great way to be free of the day 
> >> to day distractions which prevent us from going really deep within 
> >> ourselves. It's certainly not an escape from the world and can be one of 
> >> the most difficult and challenging times we can experience. But the 
> >> insights we can get from it, which might not be possible with our busy 
> >> schedules, help us to deal with the stuff everyday life throws at us. 
> >> Don't knock it til you try it! : )
> >> 
> >> Mike
> >> 
> >> From: Merle Lester 
> >> To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"  
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 23:07
> >> Subject: [Zen] the real world and zen power
> >> 
> >>  
> >> 
> >>  ..if you sit around meditating all day...just as some folk in other 
> >> religions pray/ chant all day then "nothing " is happening to upset the 
> >> apple cart so to speak going out in the real world...facing 
> >> it...that's when the "trouble " starts...that's when you need the "tools 
> >> of survival" to get through the day..
> >> .reality dawns 
> >> and reality can be a" bag of allsorts" as you all well know
> >> that's when you need the" zen power" to get you through the day!
> >> merle
> >> 
> >>  
> >> JM,
> >> 
> >> >Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without moving. 
> >> > Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint 
> >> >was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told.  Yak..
> >> 
> >> Just out of interest, here's a schedule for a Vipassana retreat. 
> >> Compulsory/not compulsory just means that you can meditate in your own 
> >> room or in the main hall. You can see that there is a minimum of 10 hours 
> >> a day meditation over 10 days - ALL conducted in Noble silence with no 
> >> reading or writing material, music, books or cell phones etc.
> >> 
> >> 4:00 â€" 04:30 Get Up & Take a Shower
> >> 04:30 â€" 06:30 Meditation in the Main Hall (not compulsory)
> >> 06:30 â€" 08:00 Breakfast & Rest
> >> 08:00 â€" 10:00 Group Meditation in Hall (compulsory)
> >> 10:00 â€" 

[Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA

[billsmart]

Anthony,

Moo!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill!/Merle,
>  
> At least the way Tibetan monks conduct sex rituals sounds like treating women 
> like cattle. That is in the name of reaching highest compassion 
> and emptiness in the process.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012, 16:46
> Subject: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA
> 
> 
>   
> He (IMO) is just a walking bumper-sticker machine. How could you take anyone 
> seriously who purports to be a big-time Buddhist teacher while encouraging 
> his people to cling to their attachments to their culture and language, and 
> supports a theocracy which enslaves and exploits non-clerics by keeping them 
> in ignorance and treats women like cattle?
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> >  bill that's not very nice...i have many of his books...and his 
> > teachings are sound...merle
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Anthony,
> > 
> > Don't put too much stock in anything The Dalai Lama says. He's now just 
> > another out-of-work politician...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> > >
> > > Edgar,
> > > That garbage was obtained from Internet, more than one source. Does it 
> > > sound reasonalbe?
> > > Anthony
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From: Edgar Owen 
> > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012, 7:31
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > Anthony,
> > > 
> > > I don't know where you get this garbage Antony?
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > On Sep 13, 2012, at 6:21 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > > 
> > > > Dalai Lama says, if you are faced with two glasses, one containing 
> > > > wine, the other urine, you must drink both without hesitation, in order 
> > > > to qualify for the sex yoga you describe. Right?
> > > > 
> > > > Anthony
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > From: Edgar Owen 
> > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 8:30
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Anthony, 
> > > > 
> > > > Sure, it's possible I do it all the time...
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Sep 12, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> Edgar,
> > > >> 
> > > >> You say, ' Remember Tantra, and some Taoist schools, use this 
> > > >> attachment to generate intensity of chi in the sexual chakras, but 
> > > >> then instead of releasing it in orgasm, directs it up through the 
> > > >> other chakras flooding the whole body to invigorate the whole being 
> > > >> and fill it with pure objectLESS love. In this way the whole being 
> > > >> glows with chi in the form of pure unmediated love and radiates Buddha 
> > > >> Nature back out into the universe...'
> > > >> 
> > > >> Is it really possible? Or just an excuse for the pleasue of actual 
> > > >> organism, no matter if the body is invigorated with love or not?
> > > >> 
> > > >> Anthony
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> From: Chris Austin-Lane 
> > > >> To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 22:19
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> On Sep 12, 2012 5:06 AM, "Edgar Owen"  
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Hi Mike,
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> I rarely use most of the old words 
> > > >>> from the texts since I find many of 
> > > >>> them confused and overlapping.
> > > >> The very nature of words. 
> > > >> But fresh language that captures the freshness of the current moment 
> > > >> is always welcome. 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> As for the high heels clicking towards you on the sidewalk. Enjoy but 
> > > >>> don't get too attached! Recognize that as one of the BIGGEST 
> > > >>> attachments men especially have to deal with. Just realize it's true 
> > > >>> nature, a biological trick evolution plays on men to perpetuate the 
> > > >>> species no matter at what cost!
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Remember Tantra, and some Taoist schools, use this attachment to 
> > > >>> generate intensity of chi in the sexual chakras, but then instead of 
> > > >>> releasing it in orgasm, directs it up through the other chakras 
> > > >>> flooding the whole body to invigorate the whole being and fill it 
> > > >>> with pure objectLESS love. In this way the whole being glows with chi 
> > > >>> in the form of pure unmediated love and radiates Buddha Nature back 
> > > >>> out into the 

[Zen] Re: mandalas

[billsmart]

Merle,

If you mandalas are a good expression of yourself, you're in very good shape!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  you are a sweetie bill.
> 
> ..sometimes more than often... i loose confidence...why am i doing this?..
> 
> .i have no choice really..it's what gets me through the day...it's my way of 
> expressing myself
> 
> ..cheers merle
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> When I see rainbows I see your mandalas...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > B..this is from a very dear friend of mine... here is what he says about 
> > the site i sent..(.another friend sent me the site and the rainbow was from 
> > her house.)
> > 
> > ..i get rainbows here too..they are beautiful as they are a sign of 
> > hope...and when you see  a rainbow one feels "ah ha all is well with the 
> > world"
> > 
> > ..i am sorry you are colour blind B.
> > 
> > .. this is indeed sad.
> > ..so what colours do you see?... at least you can see...that is good..
> > . some humans are blind
> > ...take care.
> > .cheers merle
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > >â€Å"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose� â€" Antonio 
> > >to Bassanio, Act 1 
> > Scene 3, â€Å"The Merchant of Venice� by William Shakespeare.
> > > 
> > >I tend to regard with some loathing people who come out with lines, 
> > especially when written, that start with something like â€Å"Jesus says 
> > that ...�, 
> > then proceed to quote or more often misquote, add their own interpretation 
> > either as part of the misquote or as a conclusion supposedly proven by the 
> > quote 
> > or misquote, and of course never ever provide an actual reference to the 
> > source 
> > document so that their claims, be they misleading or not, can be 
> > verified.  
> > Sadly, a lot of people tend to get sucked in by their bullshit.  No 
> > reference means no authority and no validity.
> > > 
> > >Ok, now take another look at that article by Mr. Zen-for-the-rest-of us 
> > Mike Young.  http://www.zenfortherestofus.com/pain.html  
> > Go to paragraph 2.  Note the total lack of a reference.  He just rips 
> > misquotes out of context.  Go to paragraph 3 and you’ll find the 
> > same 
> > thing.  It makes no difference that I have some serious dislike for St. 
> > Paul.
> > > 
> > >Alright, here’s a reference for you.  Matthew 6:33.  Check 
> > >out 
> > any version you like (you probably have a King James version lying around 
> > somewhere) and you’ll find that it’s not quite the same 
> > wording that the 
> > Reverend Young offers up.  Any version!!!  Here, check out a 
> > few:  http://bible.cc/matthew/6-33.htm  The 
> > meaning might be close, but nonetheless it’s ripped out of context 
> > and instead 
> > of making its original point it now provides some excuse for the Reverend 
> > Young 
> > to fallaciously authorize whatever he’s trying to say.  And if 
> > you read 
> > carefully enough, you’ll find that the misquote doesn’t 
> > really have all that 
> > much to do with whatever points he thinks that he is trying to make.  It 
> > does say to some gullible readers though that the Reverend Young can quote 
> > Jesus 
> > so he must know what he is talking about.
> > > 
> > >I really despair when I see this kind of crap.
> > > 
> > >Love
> > >John
> > > 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: mandalas

[billsmart]

Anthony,  Pronounce it like 'crop' but trill the 'r' and you've got it!  
...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill!
>  
> I have to stop saying that, because everytime I do, I sound like saying' 
> sawadi crap'.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012, 13:32
> Subject: [Zen] Re: mandalas
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> I have 10 grandchildren. All live in the USA so I don't get to see them very 
> often.
> 
> Have a good visit, and tell your Thai friend 'Sawadi Khrop!) for me when you 
> see her next... (Only you would say 'Sawadi Ka')...
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >   thank you bill!..i am going off line now..staying overnight with 
> > grandkids ...oskar seabert 4 and annika mai..2
> > thai food is great ..i usually have a veggie dish or tom yum  soup..
> > .funny when i was in thailand in 1974..and pregnant..the smell of coriander 
> > made me nauseous..so i did not eat any of that delicious food.
> > ..i went seeking italian.
> > .landing in london was heaven..straight to eat roast beef with all the 
> > trimmings..
> > . saying that i had spent 3 months in asia...and european food was 
> > something to die for by then
> >  catch you later...enjoy your weekend..cheers merle
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > If you mandalas are a good expression of yourself, you're in very good 
> > shape!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  you are a sweetie bill.
> > > 
> > > ..sometimes more than often... i loose confidence...why am i doing this?..
> > > 
> > > .i have no choice really..it's what gets me through the day...it's my way 
> > > of expressing myself
> > > 
> > > ..cheers merle
> > > 
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > When I see rainbows I see your mandalas...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > B..this is from a very dear friend of mine... here is what he says 
> > > > about the site i sent..(.another friend sent me the site and the 
> > > > rainbow was from her house.)
> > > > 
> > > > ..i get rainbows here too..they are beautiful as they are a sign of 
> > > > hope...and when you see ÃÆ'‚ a rainbow one feels "ah ha 
> > > > all is well with the world"
> > > > 
> > > > ..i am sorry you are colour blind B.
> > > > 
> > > > .. this is indeed sad.
> > > > ..so what colours do you see?... at least you can see...that is good..
> > > > . some humans are blind
> > > > ...take care.
> > > > .cheers merle
> > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å"The devil can cite Scripture for his 
> > > > >purposeÃÆ'¢â‚¬ï¿½ ÃÆ'¢â‚¬" 
> > > > >Antonio to Bassanio, Act 1 
> > > > Scene 3, ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å"The Merchant of 
> > > > VeniceÃÆ'¢â‚¬ï¿½ by William Shakespeare.
> > > > >ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > >I tend to regard with some loathing people who come out with lines, 
> > > > especially when written, that start with something like 
> > > > ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å"Jesus says that 
> > > > ...ÃÆ'¢â‚¬ï¿½, 
> > > > then proceed to quote or more often misquote, add their own 
> > > > interpretation 
> > > > either as part of the misquote or as a conclusion supposedly proven by 
> > > > the quote 
> > > > or misquote, and of course never ever provide an actual reference to 
> > > > the source 
> > > > document so that their claims, be they misleading or not, can be 
> > > > verified.ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Sadly, a lot of people tend to get sucked in by their 
> > > > bullshit.ÃÆ'‚  No 
> > > > reference means no authority and no validity.
> > > > >ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > >Ok, now take another look at that article by Mr. Zen-for-the-rest-of 
> > > > >us 
> > > > Mike Young.ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > http://www.zenfortherestofus.com/pain.htmlÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Go to paragraph 2.ÃÆ'‚  Note the total lack of a 
> > > > reference.ÃÆ'‚  He just rips 
> > > > misquotes out of context.ÃÆ'‚  Go to paragraph 3 and 
> > > > youÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢ll find the same 
> > > > thing.ÃÆ'‚  It makes no difference that I have some 
> > > > serious dislike for St. 
> > > > Paul.
> > > > >ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > >Alright, hereÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s a reference for 
> > > > >you.ÃÆ'‚  Matthew 6:33.ÃÆ'‚  Check out 
> > > > any version you like (you probably have a King James version lying 
> > > > around 
> > > > somewhere) and youÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢ll find that 
> > > > itÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s not quite the same wording 
> > > > t

[Zen] Re: mandalas

[billsmart]

Thais do pronounce 'r' but usually they trill it, like Spanish-speakers.

Also there are many consonants and vowels they have that English doesn't and 
with which English-speakers struggle.  A good example is the Thai word for 
'shrimp'.  It's transliterated as either 'gung' or 'kung'.  That's because the 
beginning consonant is actually in between the English soft 'g' and the hard 
'k' sound.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
>  
> Now Thais have stopped pronouncing 'r', instead, they all say 'l'. That is 
> why last time when you ordered fried rice, you were pressented with 'flight' 
> lice'.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> From: billsmart 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 16 September 2012, 15:37
> Subject: [Zen] Re: mandalas
> 
> 
>   
> Anthony, Pronounce it like 'crop' but trill the 'r' and you've got it! 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!
> >  
> > I have to stop saying that, because everytime I do, I sound like saying' 
> > sawadi crap'.
> >  
> > Anthony
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012, 13:32
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: mandalas
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > I have 10 grandchildren. All live in the USA so I don't get to see them 
> > very often.
> > 
> > Have a good visit, and tell your Thai friend 'Sawadi Khrop!) for me when 
> > you see her next... (Only you would say 'Sawadi Ka')...
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   thank you bill!..i am going off line now..staying overnight 
> > > with grandkids ...oskar seabert 4 and annika mai..2
> > > thai food is great ..i usually have a veggie dish or tom yum 
> > >  soup..
> > > .funny when i was in thailand in 1974..and pregnant..the smell of 
> > > coriander made me nauseous..so i did not eat any of that delicious food.
> > > ..i went seeking italian.
> > > .landing in london was heaven..straight to eat roast beef with all the 
> > > trimmings..
> > > . saying that i had spent 3 months in asia...and european food was 
> > > something to die for by then
> > >  catch you later...enjoy your weekend..cheers merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > If you mandalas are a good expression of yourself, you're in very good 
> > > shape!
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ you are a sweetie bill.
> > > > 
> > > > ..sometimes more than often... i loose confidence...why am i doing 
> > > > this?..
> > > > 
> > > > .i have no choice really..it's what gets me through the day...it's my 
> > > > way of expressing myself
> > > > 
> > > > ..cheers merle
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > When I see rainbows I see your mandalas...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > B..this is from a very dear friend of mine... here is what he says 
> > > > > about the site i sent..(.another friend sent me the site and the 
> > > > > rainbow was from her house.)
> > > > > 
> > > > > ..i get rainbows here too..they are beautiful as they are a sign of 
> > > > > hope...and when you see ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ a 
> > > > > rainbow one feels "ah ha all is well with the world"
> > > > > 
> > > > > ..i am sorry you are colour blind B.
> > > > > 
> > > > > .. this is indeed sad.
> > > > > ..so what colours do you see?... at least you can see...that is good..
> > > > > . some humans are blind
> > > > > ...take care.
> > > >

[Zen] Re: bedtime reading

[billsmart]

Merle,

That book probably has documented part of why the Western image of the Dalai 
Lama 'creeps me out'.  (I'm beginning to really like that phrase - thanks 
Chris).  I may present an inverse perspective of mine because he hasn't 
'conquered' me yet, and if fact it's what I perceive as his marketing-type 
efforts to 'conquer' me that I object to.  I do agree that even with all the 
nationalistic tactics, some which I considered ill-conceived and very tragic, 
he hasn't seemed to have swayed China.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> bedtime reading for me..." how the dalai lama conquered the world but lost 
> the battle with china.".." tragedy in crimson"...tim johnson
> i'm preparing for a "battle "
>  merle
>  
> Merle
> www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
>






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[Zen] Re: bedtime reading

[billsmart]

Merle,

You creep me out sometimes!

I never said I 'hated' the Dalai Lama.  I dislike his image, and I've even 
softened that somewhat recently by saying I dislike the Western media's 
portrayal of his image, especially when he had two images - one as a 'Buddhist' 
spiritual leader and one as a nationalistic political leader.  This is what I 
meant when I echoed your phraseology that he hand not 'conquered' me.  And also 
just recently (6 mos ago?) I know the Dalai Lama has relinquished his role as 
the political leader of Tibet so that removes another Lamai-esque pea from 
under my mattress.

I don't know Tim Johnson, have never read his book and don't intend to.  I was 
commenting on YOUR short remarks about his book.

I have never been to China outside of two major airports.  I have never been to 
Tibet.  I have never met the Dalai Lama.  What's that got to do with anything?  
Are you suggesting that I shouldn't be able to have an opinion on anything or 
anyone that I have not researched first-hand or met myself?

Like I said above, all my opinions are based on Western media (and maybe some 
other cultures') reports - as I'm sure most of yours are also.  What's the 
problem with that?

I already posted 5 or 6 links of my 'evidence'.

I don't know any Tibetans.  I know some Chinese citizens and many US citizens 
of Chinese heritage, and many Thais of Chinese heritage.

There!  I've answered or addressed all your charges but still don't know what 
all this has to do with my negative opinions concerning the Dalai Lama.

Creepy!

...Bill!

P.S.  Good luck with the python management.  We get those from time to time, 
but more often large, non-venomous, non-constrictor and the occasional cobra.


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  biL...you freak me out...your hatred for the dalai lama... it's 
> disgusting... do you know tim johnson the author? no..have you been to china 
> ..no..have you been to tibet..no..have you met the dalai lama..no...where is 
> your evidence?...do you know any tibetans..no.. chinese no.
> 
> ..as i type my barry calls me.
> 
> .yikes there is a diamond python on the balcony..jesus..the dogs they are at 
> risk...
> 
>  you do not need conquering bilL..you need to open your mind, heart and soul
> 
> and listen
> 
>  merle
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> That book probably has documented part of why the Western image of the Dalai 
> Lama 'creeps me out'.  (I'm beginning to really like that phrase - thanks 
> Chris).  I may present an inverse perspective of mine because he hasn't 
> 'conquered' me yet, and if fact it's what I perceive as his marketing-type 
> efforts to 'conquer' me that I object to.  I do agree that even with all the 
> nationalistic tactics, some which I considered ill-conceived and very tragic, 
> he hasn't seemed to have swayed China.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > bedtime reading for me..." how the dalai lama conquered the world but lost 
> > the battle with china.".." tragedy in crimson"...tim johnson
> > i'm preparing for a "battle "
> >  merle
> >  
> > Merle
> > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
> >
>





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Re: [Zen] Fwd: [evol-psych] News: Compassion meditation may boost neural basis of empathy, study finds

[billsmart]

Merle,

I know you didn't address this question to me but I'll answer as if you had.

I'm 'hiding' (not responding to your most recent posts)for two reasons:

1.  They don't interest me.  Many of your posts as far as I'm concerned are not 
about anything even remotely associated with zen.  A good recent example is the 
one about the German water bed.

2.  I almost never go to links posted unless the links are in support of 
something the poster wrote.  I NEVER go to links with no explanation attached, 
and 'Gee, I really liked this' is not what I call an explanation.  3 or 4 of 
your most recent posts were like this.

I'm interested in what YOU think and what YOUR experiences in zen have been, 
not just following pointers to SOMEONE ELSE'S thoughts and opinions who do not 
participate in the Zen Forum and with whom I cannot interact.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> hi edgar..where is everyone hiding?..merle
> 
>   
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >Compassion meditation may boost neural basis of empathy, study 
> findsOctober 4th, 2012 in Psychology & Psychiatry 
> >The idea behind the compassion-based meditation is that 
> "the feelings we have about people can be trained in optimal ways," says 
> Lobsang 
> Tenzin Negi, who developed the protocol.
> >
> >
> >(Medical Xpress)â€"A compassion-based meditation program can 
> significantly improve a person's ability to read the facial expressions of 
> others, finds a study published by Social Cognitive and Affective 
> Neuroscience. 
> This boost in empathic accuracy was detected through both behavioral testing 
> of 
> the study participants and through functional magnetic resonance imaging 
> (fMRI) 
> scans of their brain activity.
> >"It's an intriguing result, suggesting that a behavioral intervention could 
> enhance a key aspect of empathy," says lead author Jennifer Mascaro, a 
> post-doctoral fellow in anthropology at Emory University. "Previous research 
> has 
> shown that both children and adults who are better at reading the emotional 
> expressions of others have better relationships."
> >The meditation protocol, known as Cognitively-Based Compassion Training, or 
> CBCT, was developed at Emory by study co-author Lobsang Tenzin Negi, director 
> of 
> the Emory-Tibet Partnership. Although derived from ancient Tibetan Buddhist 
> practices, the CBCT program is secular in content and presentation.
> >The research team also included senior author Charles Raison, formerly a 
> psychiatrist at Emory's School of Medicine and currently at the University of 
> Arizona, and Emory anthropologist James Rilling.
> >When most people think of meditation, they think of a style known as 
> "mindfulness," in which practitioners seek to improve their ability to 
> concentrate and to be non-judgmentally aware of their thoughts and feelings. 
> While CBCT includes these mindfulness elements, the practice focuses more 
> specifically on training people to analyze and reinterpret their 
> relationships 
> with others.
> >"The idea is that the feelings we have about people can be trained in 
> >optimal 
> ways," Negi explains. "CBCT aims to condition one's mind to recognize how we 
> are 
> all inter-dependent, and that everybody desires to be happy and free from 
> suffering at a deep level."
> >Study participants were healthy adults without prior meditation experience. 
> Thirteen participants randomized to CBCT meditation completed regular weekly 
> training sessions and at-home practice for eight weeks. Eight randomized 
> control 
> subjects did not meditate, but instead completed health discussion classes 
> that 
> covered mind-body subjects like the effects of exercise and stress on 
> well-being.
> >To test empathic accuracy before and following CBCT, all participants 
> received fMRI brain scans while completing a modified version of the Reading 
> the 
> Mind in the Eyes Test (RMET). The RMET consists of black-and-white 
> photographs 
> that show just the eye region of people making various expressions. Those 
> being 
> tested must judge what the person in the photograph is thinking or feeling. 
> >Eight out of the 13 participants in the CBCT meditation group improved their 
> RMET scores by an average of 4.6 percent, while the control participants 
> showed 
> no increase, and in the majority of cases, a decrease in correct answers for 
> the 
> RMET.
> >The meditators, in comparison to those in the control group, also had 
> significant increases in neural activity in areas of the brain important for 
> empathy, including the inferior frontal gyrus and dorsomedial prefrontal 
> cortex. 
> These changes in brain activity accounted for changes in the empathic 
> accuracy 
> scores of the participants.
> >"These findings raise the intriguing possibility that CBCT may have enhanced 
> empathic abilities by increasing activity in parts of the brain that are of 
> central importance for our ability to recognize the emotional states of 

[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice

[billsmart]

Jim,

Caveat:  Everything I tell you is only my opinion.

You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite 
into the lemon and find out for yourself.  The books can't do that for you.  
They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends 
there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a 
hindrance to you in taking that final step.

The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is 
non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object).  It is what I 
often call 'Just THIS!'  When experienced it has no name, no description - it 
is Just THIS!  Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it 
is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it.  It is what 
all the books you have read are trying to do. 

IMO the image you described below as called "mental-integration-itself" is 
illusory - samsara.  As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems 
to be an "...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image 
simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in 
some way."  What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, 
you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the 
image has parts, etc...

The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism:  "In 
a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the 
image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while 
becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself."  A lot would 
depend on just what you meant by the phrase "clear empty 
mental-integration-itself."  If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of 
this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image 
has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' 
of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or 
at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.'  I'd have 
to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'?

If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has 
no form, that's one thing.  If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just 
EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely.

Again, all this is just IMO.

Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 
'mediation'.  How do you do about that?  If you could explain that a little 
more it would help.  Here's an example of how I sit (zazen):

I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I 
drop the following and there is Just THIS!.  In Japanese this is called 
'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no 
mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like 
a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation.

Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM!

...Bill!


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7"  wrote:
>
> I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become aware of 
> something I will call "mental-integration-itself" although those words are 
> only an approximation. I will therefore report some background and details, 
> below, to see if I can get this across. What I need is advice on whether or 
> not mental-integration-itself is enough on the path that I should spend a lot 
> of time noticing it. Also, of course, if anyone sees a way I can improve on 
> the mental-integration-itself awareness I have so far, I would be grateful.
> 
> Both Dzogchen and Zen say that somehow, satori and samsara are the same. I 
> have tried for years to understand what that would feel like. Here are a 
> several examples from a vast number of comments:
> 
> Cleary, Thomas, trans. (2002) SECRETS OF THE BLUE CLIFF RECORD, ZEN COMMENTS 
> BY HAKUIN AND TENKEI, Boston& London: Shambhala
> 
> Page 76, "If potential does not leave a static position, it falls into a sea 
> of poison ...
> 
> "[Hakuin] The entirety of this introduction applies to the example. 
> `Potential' is what appears before being expressed in words; the `static 
> position' is the cave of satori...
> 
> "[Tenkei] If you realize an awakening but do not eliminate leaking of views, 
> you stick to the absolute stasis of transcendence in the realm of satori, 
> which is to `fall into a sea of poison' ... "
> 
> Rabjam, Longchen, Richard Barron, trans., Padma Translation Committee (2001) 
> THE PRECIOUS TREASURY OF THE BASIC SPACE OF PHENOMENA, Junction City" Padma 
> Publishing.
> 
> Page 7, "However things appear or sound, within the vast realm of  basic 
> space they do not stray from the spontaneous equalness as dharmakaya, 
> awakened mind...
> 
> Page 15, "On this infinite foundation, extending everywhere impartially, the 
> stronghold of awakened mind does not distinguish between 

[Zen] Without Art...

[billsmart]

Here's one for Merle...


...Bill!

[Zen] Old Zen, New Zen

[billsmart]

This is an interesting article by Dosho Mike Port about what he sees are
the benefits and detriments the Western Baby Boomers have made to zen
culture.
He contrasts the more intensive, individual-focused 'traditional style'
training which up until 20 or so years ago was the only training
available with the more convenient and less demanding,
community-oriented 'Boomer-style' programs which are more popular now.
I've experienced both and do have a definite opinion on which I
prefer...although I think the order in which they are experience might
influence that.  I'll hold my opinion until asked so you can read this
and then for your own first.
Enjoy...
http://sweepingzen.com/zen-is-going-to-hell-and-its-the-boomers-fault 


...Bill!

[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen

[billsmart]

Joe,

Thanks for your response.

I have been a formal student of two Japanese Zen Buddhist teachers and a more 
casual student of a Korean teacher.  I have never talked or had any contact 
with Chinese teachers (I assume you're referring to 'Chan Buddhism') before 
JMJM joined the forum.  I have also had more than just a few discussions with a 
person who fits the description you made below - a philosophy professor who 
specialized in Plato and did receive Inca from a Korean Zen Master.

The two Japanese teachers were very similar but one had been the student of the 
other.  One emphasized Rinzai and one Soto, but both used a number of 
techniques in their programs.

The Korean teacher mainly used koans but that was not my relationship with him.

The philosophy professor spent most of his time trying to show the similarities 
between zen and Plato.  That was interesting on one level, but not something 
that really seemed important to me.  I did like to see how what seemed to be 
the same things represented in very different manners.  That seemed to me to 
speak more to communication about or teaching techniques employed in zen 
training rather than zen practice itself.

What little knowledge of Chinese Chan Buddhism comes from reading JMJM's posts 
and some dialog with him.  I have a good impression of it but their emphasis on 
'chi' and 'chakras' leave me cold.  Since I believe such things are Samara I 
see those topics as teaching techniques at best and misinformation at worst.

Now I just sit shikantaza (just sit, no-mind or empty-mind).  My practice is to 
continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha Nature) up off the cushion 
and more fully integrate it into my daily life.

I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "desert_woodworker"  
wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> What "you" (one) receive(s) by way of training depends on who you study with.
> 
> I have felt for long that the western successors of Japanese teachers were 
> beginning to really water-down the practice, and its integrity.  (It will 
> bounce back after a few generations, I suspect.  The world is in no hurry, if 
> you haven't noticed; and, Darwinism operates in all quarters).
> 
> I've practiced with both American and Australian successors of Japanese 
> teachers; and, with original Chinese teachers.  I feel more at home with the 
> latter, and I find more awakenings happening in their midst than in the 
> formers's midst.  It's *very* clear.
> 
> What I offer is only one man's "take"; but I have been around a bit in the 
> past 35 years of formal practice, and I thank my lucky stars.
> 
> What I see as most destructive to the integrity of Zen practice is the 
> western psychologization of the underpinnings of the tradition.  The Jungian 
> stuff imposed by Jungian Analysts who are also dharma heirs of earlier 
> Western teachers or Japanese teachers is especially worrying to one who has a 
> hope for Western Zen practice following Japanese lines.  But, again, that 
> line may regain health in a few generations.
> 
> This is why I follow exclusively Chinese lines, and help to give them a push. 
>  If a Western successor of a Japanese teacher needs a push, I will be sure to 
> push him or her too, especially gladly, and quickly retreat for ever.
> 
> This emphasis is mine, it's not for everyone.  I bear no enmity; only amity 
> for closest folks, no matter who taught them.
> 
> Cheers; strong practice!,
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > "billsmart"  wrote:
> >
> > This is an interesting article by Dosho Mike Port about what he sees are
> > the benefits and detriments the Western Baby Boomers have made to zen
> > culture.
>






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[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen

[billsmart]

Merle,

I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description.  That sentence 
was just chum in the waters.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to 
> send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle
> 
> 
> I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time.
> 
> ...Bill!
>






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[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice

[billsmart]

Merle,

READ THIS POST CAREFULLY

I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course' and I 
NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means.

You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while interjecting 
some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID NOT MAKE. 

I said I was not interested in your recent posts becauseand then told you.  
I didn't say it was CRAP.  I just said it didn't interest me.  There are a lot 
of non-crap, very good things that don't interest me or at least prompt me to 
post on them.

I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know what your 
destination was.

As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your post below 
implies you are living your life in the future, not NOW!

My advise is don't wait for 20 days until the marmalade is ready.  Spread your 
'gossamer wings' NOW.

...Bill!


I didn't say you 'were not zen enough'.  From you post below I see some of your 
goals and plans, but I do not see what YOU ARE DOING NOW.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  you said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an expert?
> 
>  my target at this moment is to bottle the seville marmalade i am in the 
> process of making 
> 
>  and 20 days down the track have it on toast in the morning
>  
> when i can zen through the day
> 
> with my gossamer wings praying
> 
>  merle
> 
> 
> 
>  youMerle,
> 
> Jim was asking for advice.  I gave him a little peek at 'my way'.
> 
> I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies you have 
> a destination, a target.  Do you?  If so what is it?
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  we all have our own ways bill!..you who seem to think i'm off course
> > 
> > ...as the old  song goes...  "what ever gets you there go for it"
> > 
> >  merle...
> > 
> >   
> > Jim,
> > 
> > Caveat:  Everything I tell you is only my opinion.
> > 
> > You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to 
> > bite into the lemon and find out for yourself.  The books can't do that for 
> > you.  They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their 
> > usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've 
> > learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step.
> > 
> > The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it 
> > is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object).  It is 
> > what I often call 'Just THIS!'  When experienced it has no name, no 
> > description - it is Just THIS!  Later we put names on it and give it a 
> > description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our 
> > description of it.  It is what all the books you have read are trying to 
> > do. 
> > 
> > IMO the image you described below as called "mental-integration-itself" is 
> > illusory - samsara.  As soon as you become aware of it as something that 
> > seems to be an "...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image 
> > simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the 
> > image in some way."  What you are describing here is still dualistic - 
> > there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is 
> > located there, the image has parts, etc...
> > 
> > The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism:  
> > "In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front 
> > of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from 
> > awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty 
> > mental-integration-itself."  A lot would depend on just what you meant by 
> > the phrase "clear empty mental-integration-itself."  If you are still 
> > clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I 
> > experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image 
> > appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then 
> > the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the 
> > background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.'  I'd have to again ask, what do 
> > you mean by 'empty'?
> > 
> > If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you 
> > has no form, that's one thing.  If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no 
> > image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely.
> > 
> > Again, all this is just IMO. 
> > 
> > Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean 
> > by 'mediation'.  How do you do about that?  If you could explain that a 
> > little more it would help.  Here's an example of how I sit (zazen):
> > 
> > I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and 
> > then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!.  In Japanese this is 
> > called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'jus

[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen

[billsmart]

KG,

The only hindrance is self.

When self melts away so does self/no-self, mind/no-mind, beliefs, opinions, 
appearances, hindrances/encouragements, etc...  Self follows a path.  Without 
self there is no path to follow, nowhere to go.  Just THIS!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey  wrote:
>
> "Self'/no-self', 'mind'/'no-mind' - such beliefs (or "opinions" if you 
> prefer to think personal attachments differ from personal expressions of 
> them) are hindrances, but being 'empty' can only appear to hinder.
> 
> So long as such stories are appealing, you will pursue them. Doing so, 
> one imagines the 'path' to appear long and narrow, and following it will 
> appear to require great effort.
> 
> Path defines self, self defines path. One in the same. All hindrances 
> arise from thinking otherwise.
> 
> KG
> 
> On 10/6/2012 1:39 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > The only hindrance to fully realizing Buddha Nature (IMO) is clinging 
> > to self...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 
> > Kristopher Grey  wrote:
> > >
> > > On 10/6/2012 1:09 AM, billsmart wrote:
> > > > My practice is to continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha
> > > > Nature) up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into my 
> > daily life.
> > >
> > > Seeing 'no-mind' as being more or less 'Buddha Nature" than mind is the
> > > only hindrance to realizing life as the integral expression of this.
> > >
> > > Practice, wherever it may appear to lead, is non other than this,
> > > appearing as a form of expression.
> > >
> > > KG
> > >
> >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen

[billsmart]

Merle,

I already told you why I didn't watch the video.  The description didn't 
interest me.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  
>  why did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard work
> sorry i thought you did!
>  merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description.  That sentence 
> was just chum in the waters.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to 
> > send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle
> > 
> > 
> > I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: New Zen: on the run

[billsmart]

Merle,

Don't hold back on this.  Tell us what you really think...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> what a wet blanket he is!. a nark to put in mildly!
> 
> .evolve mr. guru
> 
>  embracing zen is NOT about sitting on tiny rubbery  mats for 2/3 hours 
>  breathing in and out going blue in the face and getting blood clots in 
> one's legs
> 
> at the end of the day
>  you embrace life with zen
>  and practise on the run
>  merle
> 
> http://sweepingzen.com/zen-is-going-to-hell-and-its-the-boomers-fault  
> 
> 
> ...Bill!
>






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[Zen] Re: New Zen :NOW

[billsmart]

Merle,

Like you say, that's an old saying - an old, old saying, and you know what they 
say about old sayings, "There are two kinds of people in this world:  those 
that believe old sayings and those that don't".

Seriously though I didn't judge the video, I made a decision (judgement) based 
on the description.  I decided not to view it.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  jesus..that's bloody insight for ya!
> 
>  the old saying goes: "never judge a book by it's cover and a man by his 
> clothes"
> merle
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> Absolutely!  Or in this case the blurb on the inside and back of its 
> jacket...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  right...so you judge a book by it's cover too?,,merle
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > I already told you why I didn't watch the video.  The description didn't 
> > interest me.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > >  why did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard 
> > > work
> > > sorry i thought you did!
> > >  merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description.  That 
> > > sentence was just chum in the waters.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me 
> > > > NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking 
> > > > inside..merle
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>






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Fw: [Zen] Re: Island ( 1962 ) by Aldous Huxley

[billsmart]

No, I have not read the book ISLAND.  I have read a couple others by Huxley: 
ANIMAL FARM and 1984...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>   
> What book?
> 
> 
>  http://www.huxley.net/island/
> 
> 
> 
> merle
>






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Re: [Zen] Baby Photo

[billsmart]

Actually this is in response to Merle's query to Edgar asking where everyone is 
hiding.  I was showing what kind of chum she needs to spread on the waters to 
attract an Edgar.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>   indeed..merle
> 
> 
>   
> LOL! Merle Sensei is getting Bill to loosen up and enjoy himself! He's coming 
> back to play in the world of forms and causality again..
> 
> This btw is my baby photo too, and everyone else's. We were all born in the 
> same crib...
> 
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
>   
> >
> >
> >...Bill!
> >
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] Hisorty

[billsmart]

Edgar,

I agree, but I accepted the graphics 'History is a fiction...' as being the 
same thing as 'history is an illusion'.

I was feeling generous...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> Actually more to the point the entire past is an illusion that exists only as 
> a logical projection from the present...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Even Calvin and Hobbes know this...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: Baby Photo

[billsmart]

I think the Photographer of this photo isn't interested in either cash or 
credit.  I've been told He is only interested in my soul.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> Please give the photographer some credit! [even if (s)he'd prefer Cash].
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Here's an old photograph of me.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: Baby Photo

[billsmart]

Joe,

I passed on commenting on your previous post about this, and I still don't know 
if you're jesting or not.

In case you're not, just ask yourself...if this was a 'photo', who would have 
been around to take it?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "desert_woodworker"  
wrote:
>
> "Big-Bang" is a theory that will probably be replaced nine times in the next 
> millennium.  Ad infinitum.  Wait and see!
> 
> And, the "photo" might be concocted.
> 
> Some latter-day wannabee Immortal PhotoShopped it, I suspect.  ;-)
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > This btw is my baby photo too, and everyone else's. We were all born in the 
> > same crib...
>






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[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice

[billsmart]

Jim,

Thanks for your candid response.

First and foremost I agree with whomever previously posted that you should try 
to find a 'sangha' (Zen Buddhist center) near you to get first-hand 
instructions on how to sit zen meditation (zazen).  That's the absolute best 
way.

Second and foremost even more, I am not a teacher of zen.  I was at one period 
in my life authorized by a Zen Buddhist Roshi ('authenticated' teacher) to 
instruct people in the mechanics of zazen.  I would feel comfortable teaching 
you that, but you could also find that out online at many different sites.  
However this would only teach you how to sit, but I could not with good faith 
try to instruct you using any of the other teaching techniques which have been 
developed to induce 'kensho' (a first glimpse of Buddha Nature) or 'satori' (a 
more in depth and longer-lasting realization of Buddha Nature).  I use the term 
'Buddha Nature' instead of the term 'enlightenment' because that is the 
terminology my teachers used, and because the term 'enlightenment' has been 
adopted by popular culture and overused so much it is almost a useless term now.

Now, IMO!!!...

Of the three states you have described below I would say that #1 is the closest 
to describing a realization of Buddha Nature.  When you describe 'a space 
without thoughts' that IMO is very close.  I don't know if this 'space' is very 
short (like just a second or so) between thought, or if it is a more prolonged 
period (like a minute or more).  Anyway, I would say if this 'space without 
thoughts' is also without any sense of 'self' or any other concepts then it is 
Buddha Nature, or at least very, very close.  One thing I could tell you is 
that although when you first realize Buddha Nature ('kensho')it might be a very 
momentous and enthralling experience, Buddha Nature itself is not anything 
exceptional.  It is everyday life.  It is the experience you have when you bite 
into that lemon.  If at that time there is only 'space without thoughts' then 
there Just THIS!  Only what you would describe later as 'taste'.  The whole 
world is Just TASTE!  Nothing more.  It's later that you characterize the taste 
as sour or sweet, good or bad, and call it 'lemon'.  Buddha Nature is Just 
TASTE!, or what I call Just THIS! or Only THIS!.

I hope this helps, and I'm sure you will get other posts that may help too; but 
the most helpful thing I could tell you would be to encourage you to find a Zen 
Center near you and go for a beginning seminar.  If you need help doing that 
just ask in a post, or send me an email telling me generally where you live.  I 
have no special tools to search for something like this and would just use Bing 
or Google, so if you're proficient or comfortable using those tools you can do 
that yourself.

Thanks again for your post and good luck...

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7"  wrote:
>
> Thank you for your thoughts. I think you are right, for after all, I am still 
> being dualistic. The problem is that I can't find the lemon to bite into.
> 
> For example, I have three kinds of "emptiness" meditations, but none of them 
> could be correct because none of them enlighten me. Although they are 
> incorrect, you asked about how I meditate, so I will briefly describe them.
> 
> 1. Ordinary space. If I sit and don't think, there is a space without 
> thoughts, relaxation, etc.. The space is a little like when I look at the 
> sky. However, that hasn't enlightened me.
> 
> 2. Then there is subtle space, which I discovered by trying to see what is 
> behind my head. It is much subtler than ordinary space, not really so much 
> seen as just sort of something I am aware of. Compared with it, ordinary 
> space is coarse and heavy.
> 
> 3. Then there is an emptiness I don't have control of, but it hasn't 
> enlightened me. In it, I suddenly discovered that I shrunk to a point and 
> disappeared, and am now re-expanding into my ordinary field of awareness. So 
> it is a kind of discontinuity of consciousness - more than something like 
> sleep. When it happens, there are unexpected ideas in my head when I have 
> returned from the discontinuity.
> 
> But none of those are right, because they didn't cause me to become 
> enlightened.
> 
> Jim
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "billsmart"  wrote:
> >
> > Jim,
> > 
> > Caveat:  Everything I tell you is only my opinion.
> > 
> > You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to 
> > bite into the lemon and find out for yourself.  The books can't do that for 
> > you.  They can encourage 

[Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW

[billsmart]

Jim,

Bankei did mean something profound.  He was doing his best to describe the raw, 
unfiltered, holistic (non-dualistic) experience Zen Buddhists call Buddha 
Nature.  He did this in the context of hearing a bell.  He did not try to 
explain it.  He tried to describe it.

He used some terms that are very important.  Now these terms have been 
translated into English so we don't really know EXACTLY what he said, but if 
the translation was close then he's using terms in a way that we don't use them 
in everyday English.

He referred to a 'Buddha Mind' that is 'aware' of the sound before we 'hear' 
the sound.  This is clearly telling us that he believes Buddha Mind is not the 
same as, or at least precedes, the 'mind' that 'hears' or perceives 
(characterizes, judges, names, etc...) the sound.  I call that 'second mind' 
the 'discriminating mind'.

He also uses the term 'aware' to describe the experience of the 'Buddha Mind' 
whereas he uses the term 'hear' to describe the experience of the 
'discriminating' mind.

Bill put that into a modern scientific, physiological explanation.  He made no 
effort to describe the two experiences, but only the mechanisms that explain 
them - illusory though they may be.  Bill is just telling a story that puts the 
experience into some kind of logical and understandable context.  Bankei did 
not try to do that because IMO Bankei did not think 'understanding' was 
important or even pertinent in this matter.

As usual..CAVEAT EMPTOR!  All this is just my attempt to communicate with you 
my experiences.  I'm doing just what Bill has done.  I'm trying to put my 
experience into a logical context.

If I were to emulate Bankei I'd only say Just THIS!

...Bill!
 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7"  wrote:
>
> That is certainly a very intelligent analysis and you might be right. I don't 
> know.
> 
> On the one hand, Bankei lived from 1622 to 1693. The intellectual culture 
> then didn't know about vibrations in the air - eardrum - neuron pathway. 
> However, being a Zen master, it is possible that 
> Bankei did know what would be discovered in the future, so he didn't say that 
> expecting anyone at that time to understand. He only meant it as proof to 
> modern readers that he knew a lot about science before anyone else did. That 
> would be quite interesting in itself.
> 
> I am tending to think that Bankei meant something more profound, but I am 
> very uncertain about that. Above all, I don't understand time, so I can't say 
> for sure that there is something profound that Bankei could have meant.
> 
> Jim
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
> >
> > I apologize for possibly missing other posts to this. I read these posts 
> > all 
> > backwards
> > 
> > I think that the concept is that there is a bell which causes the air to 
> > vibrate.  
> > 
> > The vibration of the air reaches an ear. (sound cannot be transmitted in 
> > a 
> > vacuum)Â 
> > 
> > There is a instant where the vibration reaches the ear and the electrical 
> > impulses are transmitted through the auditory nerve.  At that instant, the 
> > sound is heard but the mind has not processed the information.  That 
> > exquisite 
> > instant, that thinest of thin moments is what I took to be the meaning of 
> >  "The 
> > bell rings, but you hear the sound before it rings. The mind that is aware 
> > of 
> > the bell before it rings is the Buddha-mind. If however you hear the bell 
> > and 
> > then say it is a bell, you are merely naming what's been born, a thing of 
> > no 
> > importance."Â  Not seeing the future but recognizing that instant, that 
> > moment 
> > before hearing is heard.
> > 
> > Â B 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: jfnewell7 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sat, October 6, 2012 10:25:56 PM
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW
> > 
> > Â  
> > Yes, certainly, technically, if one is meditating and then thinks of the 
> > past or 
> > future, it tends to add some chaos to the meditation. 
> > 
> > 
> > However, I wonder if this as an absolute. In Stryke, Lucien and Takashi 
> > Ikemoto, 
> > (1965), ZEN: POEMS, PRAYERS, SSERMONS, ANECDOTES, INTERVIEWS, Garden City: 
> > Doubleday Anchor
> > 
> > page 87: "BANKEI: The bell rings, but you hear the sound before it rings. 
> > The 
> > mind that is aware of the bell before it rings is the Buddha-mind. If 
> > however 
> > you hear the bell and then say it is a bell, you are merely naming what's 
> > been 
> > born, a thing of no importance."
> > 
> > I haven't experienced hearing things before they happen, so I don't 
> > understand 
> > very well what Bankei was saying. However, if we can see the future in the 
> > NOW, 
> > that changes things.
> > 
> > This could tie in with some modern physics, or perhaps not. Some physicists 
> > are 
> > postulating that there is

[Zen] Re: Baby Photo

[billsmart]

Joe,

Okay then!

I just posted it as a joke.

I don't really care how or when people think the universe began or how and when 
it will end.  I'm only interested in NOW!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "desert_woodworker"  
wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> Your first instinct was correct.
> 
> But I doubt Big Bang is a finished notion.  It's in trouble now, and the 
> trouble in Physics is a big embarrassment to fundamental Science.  But we do 
> the best we can!  All the observations until lately point to a reasonable 
> synthesis that results in a concept like a Big Bang.  But it's a seriously 
> threadbare theory now, even as some parts of the DATA have become more 
> polished and refined.  In a hundred years, people will have a good laugh 
> about what we think is a finished product.  In a thousand, our ideas will 
> seem quaint and strange and really impoverished.  It's happened before!  And 
> the speed of overturn of theories has increased exponentially... if not 
> faster.
> 
> Don't ask me about 1 years from now.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > "billsmart"  wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> > 
> > I passed on commenting on your previous post about this, and I still don't 
> > know if you're jesting or not.
>






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[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice

[billsmart]

Jim,

IMO...and some 'tough love'...

This Bodhisattva fantasy is an attachment of yours.  Drop it!

I have an original 'zen story' for that:  Pay attention to the kindly 
Bodhisattvas that look after you when you fly and remember their words, "Be 
sure to put you your own oxygen mask first before attempting to help those 
around you."

Just sit!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7"  wrote:
>
> What I am lacking is the ability to project an insight which would almost 
> instantly rescue every being in the universe from suffering.
> 
> That probably, actually, isn't even a possible goal. However, I am still 
> lacking the ability to quickly rescue a reasonable number of beings on a 
> single planet.
> 
> Jim
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Jim,
> > 
> > What do you imagine you are lacking?
> > 
> > There is nothing lacking - ever. Let me rephrase that. Individual things 
> > can be lacking but Buddha Nature is never lacking since everything is a 
> > manifestation of Buddha Nature... It's just a matter of realizing that 
> > directly...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Oct 6, 2012, at 11:32 PM, jfnewell7 wrote:
> > 
> > > I don't see how. There are good teachers who can do a lot of things I 
> > > can't do.
> > > 
> > > Jim
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Â you might already be enlightened have you considered this?.
> > > > .searching for the light with a broomstick is about what you seem to be 
> > > > doing here
> > > > merle
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Â 
> > > > Thank you for your thoughts. I think you are right, for after all, I am 
> > > > still being dualistic. The problem is that I can't find the lemon to 
> > > > bite into.
> > > > 
> > > > For example, I have three kinds of "emptiness" meditations, but none of 
> > > > them could be correct because none of them enlighten me. Although they 
> > > > are incorrect, you asked about how I meditate, so I will briefly 
> > > > describe them.
> > > > 
> > > > 1. Ordinary space. If I sit and don't think, there is a space without 
> > > > thoughts, relaxation, etc.. The space is a little like when I look at 
> > > > the sky. However, that hasn't enlightened me.
> > > > 
> > > > 2. Then there is subtle space, which I discovered by trying to see what 
> > > > is behind my head. It is much subtler than ordinary space, not really 
> > > > so much seen as just sort of something I am aware of. Compared with it, 
> > > > ordinary space is coarse and heavy.
> > > > 
> > > > 3. Then there is an emptiness I don't have control of, but it hasn't 
> > > > enlightened me. In it, I suddenly discovered that I shrunk to a point 
> > > > and disappeared, and am now re-expanding into my ordinary field of 
> > > > awareness. So it is a kind of discontinuity of consciousness - more 
> > > > than something like sleep. When it happens, there are unexpected ideas 
> > > > in my head when I have returned from the discontinuity.
> > > > 
> > > > But none of those are right, because they didn't cause me to become 
> > > > enlightened.
> > > > 
> > > > Jim
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "billsmart"  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you 
> > > > > need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books 
> > > > > can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that 
> > > > > point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say 
> > > > > much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking 
> > > > > that final step.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, 
> > > > > and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no 
> > > > > subject/object). It is what I often call

[Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW

[billsmart]

Jim,

There is only Now.  Past is just a memory.  Future is a projection.  There is 
only Now.

Time is an illusion.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7"  wrote:
>
> Yes, of course. We don't know what Bankei meant, and wouldn't even if the 
> words were translated exactly, because words are inadequate to fully describe 
> consciousness.
> 
> In some of the world's traditions, there is a theory that all times exist 
> simultaneously, and we just think me are moving through time. If that is 
> true, then when enlightened, we would have a NOW which included all the past 
> and all the future, seen all at once forever.
> 
> I can't say whether or not that theory is true. I don't know whether the real 
> NOW moves through time, so the past really is gone and the future really 
> hasn't happened, or the real NOW forever includes all moments of time.
> 
> If we could find out, it would affect our judgment of when we are seeing 
> accurately. For example, if NOW spreads eternally, and we see a NOW which is 
> only a short moment, we would know that we aren't actually seeing the real 
> NOW yet. On the other hand, if the real NOW is only a short moment, then we 
> would know that we either are seeing the real NOW, or we are close.
> 
> But since I am unable to tell you which theory is true, I couldn't decide 
> whether or not your experience is true, even if I could directly detect what 
> is in your consciousness.
> 
> Jim   
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "billsmart"  wrote:
> >
> > Jim,
> > 
> > Bankei did mean something profound.  He was doing his best to describe the 
> > raw, unfiltered, holistic (non-dualistic) experience Zen Buddhists call 
> > Buddha Nature.  He did this in the context of hearing a bell.  He did not 
> > try to explain it.  He tried to describe it.
> > 
> > He used some terms that are very important.  Now these terms have been 
> > translated into English so we don't really know EXACTLY what he said, but 
> > if the translation was close then he's using terms in a way that we don't 
> > use them in everyday English.
>






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[Zen] Re: wecome

[billsmart]

Edgar,

Correction:  SOME of us missed you...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
>   thank you edgar..i see you are onboard again1...welcome back..we all 
> missed you..merle
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> I'm getting it fine. Bill doesn't control what goes to anyone's spam box. 
> It's controlled by some idiot kid out of college newly employed by Yahoo or 
> your mail reader whose only knowledge of what passes for communication is 
> probably tweets...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 17, 2012, at 6:04 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
> 
>   
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > again in spam box...bi what is going on..why some posts in spam 
> >box?..merle
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >B..she was not normal weight for a human being!..merle
> >
> >
> >  
> >You need to watch the whole video Merle.  The women in question is not obese.
> >
> >
> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  the woman is an idiot..i trust B you are not lumping me with her...she 
> >> is obese and stupid to boot..and what she votes?
> >> HELP!
> >>  merle
> >>   
> >> I thought that it was interesting that after our monolog regarding Global 
> >> warming  my cousin posted this from Chris Matthew's show.
> >>  
> >> http://www.upworthy.com/woman-gets-called-out-for-saying-obama-is-a-communist-cant-explain-what-a-commun?c=la3 
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >> 
> >>  B 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: just so beautiful

[billsmart]

Merle,

You would ask.  And you did.  So now you know...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  don't do facebook bill..
> so how would i know?..
> merle ~
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> That's a emulation of a Facebook option.  On Facebook you may click the LIKE 
> Button below anyone's post to show your agreement.  You can also leave 
> Comments but don't have to.  You can just click LIKE!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > huh?..merle
> > 
> >   
> > LIKE!..
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > I'd say that Edgar has a good head on his shoulders, ...and, that that is 
> > > beside the point (of the subject of the present Forum).
> > > 
> > > My T'ai Chi teacher Da Liu had a way of criticizing students: he'd say 
> > > about someone, in a whole class full of people, in front of that person, 
> > > for example:
> > > 
> > > "Oh, Reggie is very STRONG!" 
> > > 
> > > Of course, in t'ai chi, strength is useless.
> > > 
> > > --Joe
> > > 
> > > > Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > bill...sorry to disappoint you... however edgar also says it like it 
> > > > IS..merle
> > >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: understanding zen

[billsmart]

Edgar,
In Dogen's quote below you are stuck on what you perceive as his
emphasis on 'study'.  He mentions 'study' in the beginning of his
statement and it is also a useful tool at the beginning of zen practice.
Dogen then switches his focus to 'forget'.  It's only at that point in
your zen practice, when you cease your thirst for 'study' and quest for
information and knowledge, that the real breakthrough comes -
realization of Buddha Nature.
I know it is very difficult for you to let go of your attachment to your
intellect, but if you ever hope to realize Buddha Nature you are going
to have to 'forget' all that, just let go and take that terrifying leap
into the abyss.
The phrase 'Ten Thousand Things' does indeed relate to the world of
forms: samsara, the world of illusions, the world as seen through the
dualistic prism of your intellect which as part of it's post-processing
of sensual experience creates this world of forms.

The enlightenment to which Dogen refers is the realization that this
world of forms is indeed illusory.  And it's very important that I
stress that when I say realization I don't mean understanding.  I mean
to realize - to 'make real', or in this case I mean to truly experience
as real.
Perhaps the reason you have failed in "...trying to explain..." things
to me is because zen is not about understanding.  Zen is about
experience.
I hope you will realize your ongoing study of your self is fruitless and
you will take that leap to forget your self, and then experience Buddha
Nature.  I guarantee you if you do that you will never need to settle
for explanations again.
Glad to see you survived Sandy.  I hope you did not suffer an inordinate
amount of damage and will recover from any losses quickly.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> If only you would understand and take to heart what Dogen is really
saying here!
>
> Note his EMPHASIS on study. I.e. using his mind.
> Note his EMPHASIS that it is the ten thousand things, that is the
world of FORMS, that is the source of his enlightenment.
>
> This is exactly what I've been trying to explain to you and that you
keep rejecting...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 4:10 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Merle,
> >
> > There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it
all kinds of other activities while shopping; but when I am shopping, I
just shop - nothing else. There is an old zen adage to that effect: "In
walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble."
> >
> > You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the
idea I was "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do have a
very vivid imagination, I'll grant you that.
> >
> > I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are
being true to your self, and are following the path you've made for your
self - if that works for you.
> >
> > It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my path
is much less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to put into
practice a little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To study the
Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the
self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand
things." - Dogen
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > > Â bil you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more
to life than shopping!
> > > i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books
and teachers
> > > Â be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one
you make yourself!..merle
> > > Â
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people
think something they probably don't and certainly didn't say.
> > >
> > > Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you
as far as I can remember.
> > >
> > > Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen
teacher? NO ONE to my knowledge.
> > >
> > > I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked
and alert...".
> > >
> > > When I shop, I shop.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  bill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and
alert..
> > > >
> > > > you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had
with total strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me their
life stories..and i point them to zen!
> > > >
> > > >  i am a teacher after all which all of you in the group
deny to me
> > > >
> > > > merle
> > > >
> > > >  merle
> > > > ÂÂ
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do?
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > edgar.
> > > > >
> > > > > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see
it except i cannot explain it like 

Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?

[billsmart]

Zendervish,

You asked:
> How would you know if you experienced "Buddha Nature?"

That's a good question.  I posted an answer to this but then deleted it 
realizing it was insufficient.  In that post I used an analogy of experiencing 
'hot' when touching fire, but that was really not a good example.  I'll still 
use the examples of fire and Buddha nature to answer your question but in a 
slightly different way.

*** FIRE ***

When I touch fire I have a sensory experience.  When you touch fire you have a 
sensory experience.  I don't really know if my experience and your experience 
are exactly the same, but I assume it is.

When I touch fire my reaction might be 'Ouch!'  When you touch fire your 
reaction might be 'Oo-wee!', or sticking your fingers in your mouth.  Our 
initial reactions are pre-thinking, pre-intellect.

THIS IS THE END OF THE EXPERIENCE - what follows below is Maya (illusory):

If this was the first time we have ever had this experience we might then 
think, 'What was that?', and make a judgement 'That felt bad', and categorize 
the experience, 'Touching fire is dangerous'.  We may want to describe our 
experience to others, 'bad', 'pain', 'intense' and eventually give it a name, 
'hot' or 'burn'.

On the other hand if we had heard about or read about a description of an 
experience that seemed the same as this one, and knew a name for that 
experience was 'burn', we might just adopt that name and describe our 
experience as 'burn', and assume it was the same as the 'burn' described by 
others.

Maybe someone who had never touched fire or had the experience named 'burn' 
touches dry ice.  That person would experience much the same things as the 
person who touched fire, and that person might beleive that by touching dry ice 
he has experienced 'burn'.  Someone else hearing this account may reject that 
and say this person had not experience 'burn' because he did not touch fire, 
but touched dry ice and declare this 'burn' experience invalid or at least 
mis-identified.

*** BUDDHA NATURE ***

Experience of Buddha Nature is much the same as this.  Your discriminating mind 
halts and you do experience something.  You do have a reaction.  That reaction 
varies from person to person.

THIS IS THE END OF THE EXPERIENCE - what follows below is Maya (illusory).

If this was the first time we have ever had this experience we might then 
think, 'What was that?', and make a judgement 'That felt good', and categorize 
the experience, 'Halting your discriminating mind is very desireable'.  We may 
want to describe our experience to others, 'good', 'clear', 'free' and 
eventually give it a name: 'Mu!', or 'The Oak Tree in the Garden', or slapping 
the floor, or just turning around and walking away - or in my case 'Just THIS!'.

On the other hand if we had heard about or read about a description of an 
experience that seemed the same as this one, and knew a name for that 
experience was 'Buddha Nature', we might just adopt that name and describe our 
experience as 'Buddha Nature', and assume it was the same as the 'Buddha 
Nature' described by others.

Maybe someone who had never halted their discriminating mind or had the 
experience named 'Buddha Nature' has some kind of mystical experience.  That 
person would experience much the same things as the person who halted their 
discriminating mind, and that person might beleive that this mystical 
experience was 'Buddha Nature'.  Someone else hearing this account may reject 
that and say this person had not experienced 'Buddha Nature' because he did not 
halt his descriminating mind, but had an illusory mystical experience and 
declare this 'Buddha Nature' experience invalid or at least mis-identified.



So now I'll answer your question by repeating (and modifying slightly in light 
of the explanations above) my answer I posted to a similar question from Siska 
several days ago:

The most important reason and the only one that really matters is that I have 
experienced halting my discriminating mind while working on the koan Mu.  Once 
you have experienced halting your discriminating mind you know that there is 
only one experience like this and there can be no mistaking it for something 
else. I beleive all experiences of halting your discriminating mind are the 
same.
 
Secondary reasons are:
- my experience was formally validated by two teachers (zen masters)of both the 
Renzai and Soto Japanese Zen Buddhist schools.  They both used various names 
for this experience such as 'kensho' or 'satori' or 'Buddha Nature' or 'Buddha 
Mind' or 'Big Mind'.
- my experience was informally validated by many other teachers and other zen
practitioners
- my experience corresponds (in my opinion) with both historical and modern-day
written accounts of the same experience

*

So I really can't say for sure that I experienced the same experience as 
Siddharta Buddha, or Joshu, or Koryu Roshi - but I beleive I did.  And the 
important thing is not whether my exp

[Zen] Re: Zen elements?

[billsmart]

There is presently only one official 'teacher' on the Zen Forum that I know of: 
JMJM.  He does preach some, but always ends his sermons with 'I have said not a 
word' and therefore remains blameless.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill, do teachers on the Zen Forum preach a lot?   --ED
> 
> PS: Is not 'Zen Forum' an oxymoron?
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Mayka,
> >
> > Thanks for your excellent definition of 'preaching'. I agree with it.
> >
> > In that sense I do not beleive zen teachers 'preach'. If they do
> they've lost the immediateness and sponteneiety that characterizes zen.
> I do suspect many Buddhist teachers preach. Chrisitians, Jews and
> Muslims preach a lot. IMO.
> >
> > ...Bill!
>






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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

You wrote:

[Ed] However to the more than 99.% of humans who do not experience
satori, 'Maya' is very, very real.  Therefore, I submit to the Zen Forum the
proposition that how the very, very few experience reality (or non-reality)
is not relevant to the world.

I of course don't know the ratio of humans that have or have not experienced
satori, but I doubt if it's that small.  When I was frequenting the Zen
Center of Los Angeles, especially during sesshin (intense teaching retreat)
I would estimate that about 25% of the new participants experienced kensho
(a mini-satori) on their first or second sesshin.  It's not an uncommon
occurrence at all.

As far as it being 'relevant to the world', I couldn't say.  But I can
guarantee you it's very relevant to those that experience it.

...Bill!


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:16 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
Definitions of illusion on the Web: 
• an erroneous mental representation 
• something many people believe that is false; "they have the illusion that
I am very wealthy" 
• delusion: the act of deluding; deception by creating illusory ideas 
• magic trick: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 
• An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain
normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. While illusions
distort reality, they are generally shared by most people. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion
 
Bill,
Thanks for clarification of the sense in which persons who are enlightened
(are in a state of satori)  experience reality (or non-reality)  - namely,
as 'Maya' (illusory).
However to the more than 99.% of humans who do not experience
satori, 'Maya' is very, very real.
Therefore, I submit to the Zen Forum the proposition that how the very,
very few experience reality (or non-reality) is not relevant to the world.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> What I meant to say was that if you are living in a world of illusions
(maya) compassion is a badge of honor and something you need to cultivate
and practice.
> 
> If you are not living in a world of illusions there is no compassion, no
honor, nothing to cultivate and nothing to practice. There is Just THIS!
> 
> ...Bill!
 



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

This is an addendum to my post below and better addresses the topic of
'relevance' which you brought up.  To do that I will relate one of my
favorite stories that better illustrates my point:

A man and woman who lived near the ocean awoke one morning after a terrible
storm the night before to find the entire coastline in front of their house
littered with thousands and thousands of starfish.  The starfish had been
washed ashore during the storm and now the tide was retreating and the
starfish were left stranded on the beach to die.

The woman immediately ran down to the beach and started picking up starfish
and throwing them back into the ocean.  Her husband, seeing her frantic
actions, went down to her, held her in his arms and said, "Dear, there is no
use in doing that.  The sun is already out.  They will all die very soon.
It's an act of nature.  There are just too many starfish here for your
efforts to make any difference."

The woman broke free of him, picked up a starfish. threw it into the
receding waters, turned to him and said, "I made a difference to that one!".

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:21 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Ed,

You wrote:

[Ed] However to the more than 99.% of humans who do not experience
satori, 'Maya' is very, very real. Therefore, I submit to the Zen Forum the
proposition that how the very, very few experience reality (or non-reality)
is not relevant to the world.

I of course don't know the ratio of humans that have or have not experienced
satori, but I doubt if it's that small. When I was frequenting the Zen
Center of Los Angeles, especially during sesshin (intense teaching retreat)
I would estimate that about 25% of the new participants experienced kensho
(a mini-satori) on their first or second sesshin. It's not an uncommon
occurrence at all.

As far as it being 'relevant to the world', I couldn't say. But I can
guarantee you it's very relevant to those that experience it.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:16 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
Definitions of illusion on the Web: 
• an erroneous mental representation 
• something many people believe that is false; "they have the illusion that
I am very wealthy" 
• delusion: the act of deluding; deception by creating illusory ideas 
• magic trick: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 
• An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain
normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. While illusions
distort reality, they are generally shared by most people. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion
 
Bill,
Thanks for clarification of the sense in which persons who are enlightened
(are in a state of satori)  experience reality (or non-reality)  - namely,
as 'Maya' (illusory).
However to the more than 99.% of humans who do not experience
satori, 'Maya' is very, very real.
Therefore, I submit to the Zen Forum the proposition that how the very,
very few experience reality (or non-reality) is not relevant to the world.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> What I meant to say was that if you are living in a world of illusions
(maya) compassion is a badge of honor and something you need to cultivate
and practice.
> 
> If you are not living in a world of illusions there is no compassion, no
honor, nothing to cultivate and nothing to practice. There is Just THIS!
> 
> ...Bill!
 

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RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

[BillSmart]

Ed,

Everything you think about is illusory.  Illusions are illusory.
Interpretations are illusory. Doctrines are illusory.  Philosophical
traditions are illusory.

Everything you experience is reality.  Reality is not illusory.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 11:44 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

  
 
Reality in Buddhism is not necessarily illusory, but it does have a diverse
set of contrasting interpretations. See below.
--ED
 
"Buddhism evolved a variety of doctrinal/philosophical traditions, each with
its own ideas of reality. 
"The Buddha promoted experience over theorizing. According to Karel Werner,
Experience is ... the path most elaborated in early Buddhism. The doctrine
on the other hand was kept low. The Buddha avoided doctrinal formulations
concerning the final reality as much as possible in order to prevent his
followers from resting content with minor achievements on the path in which
the absence of the final experience could be substituted by conceptual
understanding of the doctrine or by religious faith, a situation which
sometimes occurs, in both varieties, in the context of Hindu systems of
doctrine.[4]
The Mahayana developed those statements he did make into an extensive,
diverse set of sometimes contrasting descriptions of reality "as it really
is."[5]
The Theravada school teaches that there is no universal personal god. The
world as we know it does not have its origin in a primordial being such as
Brahman or the Abrahamic God. What we see is only a product of transitory
factors of existence, which depend functionally upon each other. 
'The Buddha is said to have said: "The world exists because of causal
actions, all things are produced by causal actions and all beings are
governed and bound by causal actions. They are fixed like the rolling wheel
of a cart, fixed by the pin of its axle shaft." (Sutta-Nipata 654)[4]
The word 'illusion' is frequently associated with Buddhism and the nature of
reality. 
Some interpretations of Buddhism teach that reality is a coin with two
sides: impermanence or anicca and the "not-self characteristic" or anatta,
referred to as "emptiness" in some Mahayana schools."
Above excerpts are from: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_in_Buddhism :
 



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RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

[BillSmart]

Ed,

My comments are embedded below:

[Ed] "You must understand that a perspective on life that is derived from an
inner experience is different from one that is arrived at intellectually." 
--Kobori-Roshi (1918-1992)

I've never heard of Kobori-Roshi before, which makes absolutely no
difference - except I don't know if he spoke or wrote this quote in English
or if it was translated.  Kobori-Roshi is either very, very wrong or he has
been misquoted.  There is no such thing as an 'inner experience'.  An
experience is an experience.  There is no outer or inner about it.  Also, I
don't know in what context he has made this quote, and especially why he
commented about 'a perspective on life'.  Zen practice does not give you a
'perspective on life'.  Perspectives are thought, and thought is illusory.
Zen practice gives you a pure, unadulterated, uncensored experience of life
- not a perspective.

[Ed]  "Taste as much of this as you can. Swallow what you need and spit out
the rest." -- Taizan Maezumi-Roshi (1931-1995) (To his disciples with regard
to importing Japanese Zen Teachings into the West.)

I studied under Maezumi Roshi for over 10 years.  I agree with the above and
have applied it to my zen practice, but don't see how it has any bearing on
what we've been discussing.

...Bill!
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> Everything you think about is illusory. Illusions are illusory.
> Interpretations are illusory. Doctrines are illusory. Philosophical
> traditions are illusory.
> 
> Everything you experience is reality. Reality is not illusory.
> 
> …Bill!
 



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RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

[BillSmart]

Mayka,

You wrote: "... starting a new [anew] all over again once and again and again."

This is the essence of zen.  This is in my opinion what the Buddhist doctrine 
of reincarnation stems from.  It is not a rebirth into a new being after your 
body dies.  It is a continual rebirth into a new being very moment.  Every 
moment is new.  Every moment is now.

This is also what I believe Jesus taught about being 'reborn' of the Father, 
and the Christians myths of resurrection stem from.

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 8:41 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

  

ED; I believe that, in living your life, you have no problem telling the 
difference.
Mayka; I don't think in terms of illusion or reality in daily life.  I often 
live in a world of illusion.  I wish I could tell you differently but that 
wouldn't be honest.  .  It made me laugh your say about me an expert!.  The 
only thing I'm an expert is in starting a new all over again once and again and 
again.  Not a big deal.  I'm going nowhere.
 
Mayka
 
 
--- On Sat, 6/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 6 November, 2010, 12:12
  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Hi ED:
>  
> Every time I've tried to explain the differences between illusion and reality 
> my mind seems to get entangled, like in clear sunny day coming all of a 
> sudden a thick mist. 
Hi Mayka,
And, so what if your mind gets confused? You may not be able to satisfactorily 
explain the difference between illusion and reality - but then neither can 
anyone else. However, I believe that, in living your life, you have no problem 
telling the difference.
> The other day as soon I sent the posting to the web I wondered: Wouldn't be 
> another illusion to make distinctions between illusions and reality?
>From the very beginning, no illusion, no reality:  "In the Bible it is said 
>that "In the Beginning, there was the Word," but in the deepest realm of Zen 
>meditation there is no single word."  --Nanrei Kobori-Rohi (1918-1992)
 
> Today I see you in a new light. Thank you for being there with all your 
> massive questioning and never answer one, hehe...!
>  
> Mayka
As Suzuki Roshi has pointed out, the Zen Mind is like the Beginner's Mind, with 
many, many possibilities. Perhaps, Mayka, you are developing a Zen mind. I had 
wrongly judged you as having the mind of an expert -with very, very few 
possiblities in it. ;-)
--ED
 
 




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RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

[BillSmart]

Ed,

To answer your question below: " Bill's position on illusory objects of mind is 
known. I don't know his on mind itself. I think he thinks mind exists. 
Otherwise, with what does he experience things?

If by 'mind' you mean the mind that thinks, discriminates, creates dualisms, 
etc..., then I believe that it is illusory.  It 'exists' as an illusion only.  
It can fade-in and fade-out.  It's not real.

'You' do not experience 'things'.  This is classic dualism.  This is a 
discriminating mind illusion.  As soon as you create a 'you', you create an 
'other' or 'things'.  This dualistic split allows you to create a 
subject/object relationship.  'You' are the subject and 'things' are the 
objects, and 'experience' is the relationship between subject and object.  And 
after that you can do all kinds of discriminations like declare the 'thing' 
good or bad, near or far, give it a name, a color, a value, etc...

Zen encourages you to STOP all of this.  Just experience.  Only experience.  No 
'you', no 'things' - Just THIS!.

Kabeesh?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:37 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

  
ED,
 
When Asanga founded the philosophy of Mind Only, he said the objects of mind 
(which you perceive) exist (i.e. not illusory). Then his followers developed 
into different sects. Some say both mind and its objects exist. Others insist 
that the objects are illusions. Even the mind itself is illusory. Bill's 
position on illusory objects of mind is known. I don't know his on mind itself. 
I think he thinks mind exists. Otherwise, with what does he experience things?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 6/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 6 November, 2010, 9:32 PM
  

Bill,
That's your position, and I honor and respect it.
"You must understand that a perspective on life that is derived from an inner 
experience is different from one that is arrived at intellectually."  
--Kobori-Roshi (1918-1992)
"Taste as much of this as you can. Swallow what you need and spit out the 
rest." -- Taizan Maezumi-Roshi (1931-1995) (To his disciples with regard to 
importing Japanese Zen Teachings into the West.)
I say "Yes" to both Teachers.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> Everything you think about is illusory. Illusions are illusory.
> Interpretations are illusory. Doctrines are illusory. Philosophical
> traditions are illusory.
> 
> Everything you experience is reality. Reality is not illusory.
> 
> …Bill!
 




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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

 

[bow]…[turn around]…[walk away]

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 1:18 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

 

  


Bill,

 

They are my words. It is now clear that you are part of the sect that follows 
Asanga that insists everything is illusion. If that is the case, the 'THIS' of 
'just this' is also an illusion. What else remains?

 

Anthony

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 11:30 AM

  

Ed,

To answer your question below: " Bill's position on illusory objects of mind is 
known. I don't know his on mind itself. I think he thinks mind exists. 
Otherwise, with what does he experience things?

If by 'mind' you mean the mind that thinks, discriminates, creates dualisms, 
etc..., then I believe that it is illusory. It 'exists' as an illusion only. It 
can fade-in and fade-out. It's not real.

'You' do not experience 'things'. This is classic dualism. This is a 
discriminating mind illusion. As soon as you create a 'you', you create an 
'other' or 'things'. This dualistic split allows you to create a subject/object 
relationship. 'You' are the subject and 'things' are the objects, and 
'experience' is the relationship between subject and object. And after that you 
can do all kinds of discriminations like declare the 'thing' good or bad, near 
or far, give it a name, a color, a value, etc...

Zen encourages you to STOP all of this. Just experience. Only experience. No 
'you', no 'things' - Just THIS!.

Kabeesh?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 ] On 
Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:37 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory

ED,

When Asanga founded the philosophy of Mind Only, he said the objects of mind 
(which you perceive) exist (i.e. not illusory). Then his followers developed 
into different sects. Some say both mind and its objects exist. Others insist 
that the objects are illusions. Even the mind itself is illusory. Bill's 
position on illusory objects of mind is known. I don't know his on mind itself. 
I think he thinks mind exists. Otherwise, with what does he experience things?

Anthony

--- On Sat, 6/11/10, ED http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com> > 
wrote:

From: ED http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com> >
Subject: Re: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 
Date: Saturday, 6 November, 2010, 9:32 PM


Bill,
That's your position, and I honor and respect it.
"You must understand that a perspective on life that is derived from an inner 
experience is different from one that is arrived at intellectually." 
--Kobori-Roshi (1918-1992)
"Taste as much of this as you can. Swallow what you need and spit out the 
rest." -- Taizan Maezumi-Roshi (1931-1995) (To his disciples with regard to 
importing Japanese Zen Teachings into the West.)
I say "Yes" to both Teachers.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 , 
 wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> Everything you think about is illusory. Illusions are illusory.
> Interpretations are illusory. Doctrines are illusory. Philosophical
> traditions are illusory.
> 
> Everything you experience is reality. Reality is not illusory.
> 
> …Bill!


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http:/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony and Kristy,

I don't disagree with your observations below, but couldn't you say the same 
thing about any activity into which you put your whole being - not just sex?

For example - bowling?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 4:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Kristy,
 
I understand. I am 71. When I was young, I had similar experiences, though not 
so often, as it depended on occassions and surroudings. Like you say, that 
explains why Tantrism puts so much significance on sexism, as it definitely is 
'spiritual', in addition to physical. However, there are other ways. How about 
heroin and other drugs? They induce similar experiences. I have not tried them, 
but read some 'fantastic' descriptions. On the other hand, near death 
experiences seem to be another type. There is bliss, but does not appear to be 
'mind blowing'. 
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 6:44 PM
  
Anthony,
 
As I have neither the time nor expertise to substitute  there.. let me offer a  
more serious thought. 
 
If you  truly are asking a question about if or how sexuality  intersects with 
spirituality, I can say that I had an experience wherein there was such a 
fusion of physical body and soul / heart / mind energies (however you  
interpret those), that it was  as if space and time fell away or  did not 
exist. There were no egos, secrets, inhibitions or thoughts. Consciousness and 
physicality merged. Its primal energy and primordial spirit. Animal intensity 
but somehow driven by a soul awareness for which there are no words. An 
intensity beyond measure and impossible to duplicate exactly. An intimacy so 
profound it felt like touching God-source (however  defined). A complete 
acceptance of energy flow.
 
 
I couldn't speak for a day. My body tingled for nearly a week. I had no desire 
for food and drank only small amounts of water at a time for days. Its just 
un-defineable. Its experential.
 
But , for me, it left me believing in "spirit" (beit mind /heart or soul).  k
 
 
--- On Sat, 11/6/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:

From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 4:50 PM
  
K and E,
 
My local zen center just had the teacher quit. Who will apply for the job to 
supervise the activities in the basement?
 
A

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 2:43 AM
  

Good Morning Ed,
 
I think you may be confusing femininst with fem-domme here. Its likely that Tim 
understands the joys of ball-clamps better than most.
 
As for Anthony-- if pain and pleasure  are the yin /yang of lust, perhaps a 
dungeon in the basement of his local zen center is precisely where he should 
begin his journey.
 
Rainy here today. I love a rany day now and again. A day for tea and 
contemplation, or simply a day to stay in bed? Perhaps the net experience is 
the same. 
 
Be well.. k
 
 

--- On Sat, 11/6/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 8:57 AM
  

 
 
OTOH, one ball-breaking liaison with an American feminist might cure A's 
curiosity about Tantric sex for good!  ;-)  e
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> *chuckles*
> 
> Well then-- I dare say that you have a homework assignment this weekend. 
> Please don't spare us any of the details Monday morning.
>  
> Is it comparable with buddhism? I can offer that Bill IS correct on this 
> point because it truly is 'just this'!  A true experience of universal 
> one-ness, with no need for ego, intellect or thought of any kind. I invite 
> you to seek your tantric tigress and let the flow of energy be your guide.  
> Enjoy ;)  k
 
> Kristy,
> I haven't had a mind blowing experience for a long time, but I will search in 
> my memory to locate it. 
> My curiosity on Tantrism in regard to sex remains. Is it compatible with 
> Buddhism? 
> Anthony

 
> Anthony;)
>  
> One experience of truly mind-blowing sex can tell you this.  Enjoy your 
> weekend...K
 
> .."they shed light on the relationship with lust and spiritualism.
>  
> I am curious why Tantrism attaches so much significance to that.
>  
> Anthony







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The mess

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I do indeed have a good idea on what is permanent.  In fact I have a list.  It 
changes every day.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 4:57 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Kristy,
 
Chuckles. It is hard to figure out a better reply. However, unfortunately all 
fun is transient. Maybe Bill has an idea on what is permanent.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 8/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 8 November, 2010, 12:16 PM
  
*s*
 
 Perhaps.. but it sure isn't as much fun. I'll ponder a better reply ;)  
 
Kristy

--- On Sun, 11/7/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 7, 2010, 9:11 PM
  
Anthony and Kristy,

I don't disagree with your observations below, but couldn't you say the same 
thing about any activity into which you put your whole being - not just sex?

For example - bowling?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 4:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Kristy,

I understand. I am 71. When I was young, I had similar experiences, though not 
so often, as it depended on occassions and surroudings. Like you say, that 
explains why Tantrism puts so much significance on sexism, as it definitely is 
'spiritual', in addition to physical. However, there are other ways. How about 
heroin and other drugs? They induce similar experiences. I have not tried them, 
but read some 'fantastic' descriptions. On the other hand, near death 
experiences seem to be another type. There is bliss, but does not appear to be 
'mind blowing'. 

Anthony

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 6:44 PM

Anthony,

As I have neither the time nor expertise to substitute there.. let me offer a 
more serious thought. 

If you truly are asking a question about if or how sexuality intersects with 
spirituality, I can say that I had an experience wherein there was such a 
fusion of physical body and soul / heart / mind energies (however you interpret 
those), that it was as if space and time fell away or did not exist. There were 
no egos, secrets, inhibitions or thoughts. Consciousness and physicality 
merged. Its primal energy and primordial spirit. Animal intensity but somehow 
driven by a soul awareness for which there are no words. An intensity beyond 
measure and impossible to duplicate exactly. An intimacy so profound it felt 
like touching God-source (however defined). A complete acceptance of energy 
flow.


I couldn't speak for a day. My body tingled for nearly a week. I had no desire 
for food and drank only small amounts of water at a time for days. Its just 
un-defineable. Its experential.

But , for me, it left me believing in "spirit" (beit mind /heart or soul). k


--- On Sat, 11/6/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:

From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 4:50 PM

K and E,

My local zen center just had the teacher quit. Who will apply for the job to 
supervise the activities in the basement?

A

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 2:43 AM


Good Morning Ed,

I think you may be confusing femininst with fem-domme here. Its likely that Tim 
understands the joys of ball-clamps better than most.

As for Anthony-- if pain and pleasure are the yin /yang of lust, perhaps a 
dungeon in the basement of his local zen center is precisely where he should 
begin his journey.

Rainy here today. I love a rany day now and again. A day for tea and 
contemplation, or simply a day to stay in bed? Perhaps the net experience is 
the same. 

Be well.. k



--- On Sat, 11/6/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 8:57 AM


OTOH, one ball-breaking liaison with an American feminist might cure A's 
curiosity about Tantric sex for good! ;-) e

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> *chuckles*
> 
> Well then-- I dare say that you have a homework assignment this weekend. 
> Please don't spare us any of the details Monday morning.
> 
> Is it comparable with buddhism? I can offer that Bill IS correct on this 
> point because it truly is 'just this'! A true experience of universal 
> one-ness, with n

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

 

Why do you think a monastery is different from any other place?

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


ED,

 

The point is they don't let you see and learn from.

 

If they do, what price is the ticket? I would stand in a long line to purchase 
it.

 

Anthony

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 6:42 AM

  

 

 > But it is a different matter when it is performed in a monastry.



What's the difference?

(I think it's OK, provided engaged in on the monastery roof, for all to see and 
learn from.   ;-) )

--ED

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Kristy,
>  
> I appreciate your candor and enjoy your stories. I understand you had an 
> eventless nde, but colorful sex experiences. You should be satisfied. Why 
> should you question dharma, scriptures and the meaning of exitence? 
>  
> I know sex climax, LSD and ndes are all different, hard to compare. 
> Forgetting how a senior runner should perform for the time being, my original 
> question is how Tantra reconcile sexuality and Buddhism (LSD and nde are not 
> yet in the game). I am not against sex, as long as it is carried out in an 
> appropriate place, including an 'orgyhouse'. But it is a different matter 
> when it is performed in a monastry.
>  
> Anthony

 

 





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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Lovely?  Maybe - but with LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of THORNS!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 11:05 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Nothing to forgive ED.  You're also lovely in your own way.
Mayka

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 16:01
  

Mayka,
Do forgive me - it is just my ego obsessed with what is best for itself.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> ED;
>  
> If you would like to  to know about whatever you want to know about Anthony 
> better ask him directly and not me. But if you ask me about the role he plays 
> in the forum I would say that he's a lovely character.  I never seen his ego 
> deffending itself and no matter how badly at times he's been provoked.  I 
> admire his modesty and kind character towards everyone.>  
> Mayka
> The "I/me/mine" in me responds:  Does Anthony know or care about what others 
> in the forum know are best for themelves?
--ED

> > Only Anthony himself knows what is the best for him and not you.
> > Mayka



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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

 

If emptiness was on my list, I wouldn't have a list.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:13 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


Bill,

Is not 'emptiness' a permanent member on your list?

--ED

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> I do indeed have a good idea on what is permanent. In fact I have a list.
It changes every day.
> 
> ...Bill!

 





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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

 

I don’t know.  That’s a good question.  All I know is the list is correct each 
day after I update it.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:14 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


Bill,

 

There is a contradiction here. If something is on your permanence list on a 
certain day. The next day, it disappears. Is that item still permanent, only 
hidden by you somewhere else, or it has become transient?

 

Anthony

 

This may be the fifteenth item on the 14 unsolvable questions on Buddha's list.

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 4:43 PM

  

Anthony,

I do indeed have a good idea on what is permanent. In fact I have a list. It 
changes every day.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On 
Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 4:57 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Kristy,

Chuckles. It is hard to figure out a better reply. However, unfortunately all 
fun is transient. Maybe Bill has an idea on what is permanent.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 8/11/10, Kristy McClain http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=healthyplay1%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

From: Kristy McClain http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=healthyplay1%40yahoo.com> >
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Date: Monday, 8 November, 2010, 12:16 PM

*s*

Perhaps.. but it sure isn't as much fun. I'll ponder a better reply ;) 

Kristy

--- On Sun, 11/7/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>  
http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> > wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>  
http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> >
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Date: Sunday, November 7, 2010, 9:11 PM

Anthony and Kristy,

I don't disagree with your observations below, but couldn't you say the same 
thing about any activity into which you put your whole being - not just sex?

For example - bowling?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On 
Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 4:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Kristy,

I understand. I am 71. When I was young, I had similar experiences, though not 
so often, as it depended on occassions and surroudings. Like you say, that 
explains why Tantrism puts so much significance on sexism, as it definitely is 
'spiritual', in addition to physical. However, there are other ways. How about 
heroin and other drugs? They induce similar experiences. I have not tried them, 
but read some 'fantastic' descriptions. On the other hand, near death 
experiences seem to be another type. There is bliss, but does not appear to be 
'mind blowing'. 

Anthony

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=healthyplay1%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

From: Kristy McClain http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=healthyplay1%40yahoo.com> >
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 6:44 PM

Anthony,

As I have neither the time nor expertise to substitute there.. let me offer a 
more serious thought. 

If you truly are asking a question about if or how sexuality intersects with 
spirituality, I can say that I had an experience wherein there was such a 
fusion of physical body and soul / heart / mind energies (however you interpret 
those), that it was as if space and time fell away or did not exist. There were 
no egos, secrets, inhibitions or thoughts.

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

Why do you think some things are sacred and some things are not?  ...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:16 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill,
 
Of course, a monastry is different, as it is a place for sacred sex, in 
contrast to an orgyhouse, where there is nothing sacred.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 4:46 PM
  
Anthony,
 
Why do you think a monastery is different from any other place?
 
…Bill! 
  
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  
  
ED,
 
The point is they don't let you see and learn from.
 
If they do, what price is the ticket? I would stand in a long line to purchase 
it.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 6:42 AM 
  
 
 > But it is a different matter when it is performed in a monastry.


What's the difference?
(I think it's OK, provided engaged in on the monastery roof, for all to see and 
learn from.   ;-) )
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Kristy,
>  
> I appreciate your candor and enjoy your stories. I understand you had an 
> eventless nde, but colorful sex experiences. You should be satisfied. Why 
> should you question dharma, scriptures and the meaning of exitence? 
>  
> I know sex climax, LSD and ndes are all different, hard to compare. 
> Forgetting how a senior runner should perform for the time being, my original 
> question is how Tantra reconcile sexuality and Buddhism (LSD and nde are not 
> yet in the game). I am not against sex, as long as it is carried out in an 
> appropriate place, including an 'orgyhouse'. But it is a different matter 
> when it is performed in a monastry.
>  
> Anthony
 
 


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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Mayka,

Oh yes!  And Ed has quite an aroma also.  But those are just the things you 
have to put up with if you’re going to catch a baby tiger…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:04 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Do you think so?. 

--- On Wed, 10/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 1:19
  
Lovely? Maybe - but with LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of THORNS!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 11:05 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Nothing to forgive ED. You're also lovely in your own way.
Mayka

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 16:01


Mayka,
Do forgive me - it is just my ego obsessed with what is best for itself.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> ED;
> 
> If you would like to to know about whatever you want to know about Anthony 
> better ask him directly and not me. But if you ask me about the role he plays 
> in the forum I would say that he's a lovely character. I never seen his ego 
> deffending itself and no matter how badly at times he's been provoked. I 
> admire his modesty and kind character towards everyone.> 
> Mayka
> The "I/me/mine" in me responds: Does Anthony know or care about what others 
> in the forum know are best for themelves?
--ED

> > Only Anthony himself knows what is the best for him and not you.
> > Mayka

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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Mayka and Ed,

Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 1:21 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Mayka,
Or perhaps as Bill might say:  Whatever is happening, the practicing
zenist's mind's effort is always directed toward remaining calm, alert and
aware in the here and now, in the state of 'just THIS', and as much as
possible without judgment, grasping, pushing away, conception-formation or
comment.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> ED:
>  
> In real life and face to face with people in the arena of zen there are no
women or men but just practicioners who sit down together and practice
together.  There is not as much chatting but all activities are made in
minfulness. 
>  
> Mayka

 
> Mayka,
> You describe situations, preferences, choices and challenges that every
human encounters in interactions with other humans in the normal course of
life.
> The crucial question is: With what sort of mind does a zenist greet them
all?
> --ED

 
> Chris, ED and all:
>  
> To me is not a question about men or women but human beings.  There are
times I don't get on with certain type of men and there are times I find
difficult to get on with certain type of women.  There are very competitive
men and there are very competitive women but there are also all those to
whom value the most the quality contact they have with other human beings
regardless they are men or women.  In real life I also have some male
friend to whom first encounter was a disaster and then after some
disagrements and fights become very close friends. There is no difference
here for as long as the person in front of us is of the same wave of
thinking.  
> 
> Mayka
 
 



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

Since this is an e-forum I guess it would be more correctly called
e-stink...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:30 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
 
 
Bill,
"Stage seven is the glow in which you are radiating yourself as truth. You
will feel totally in contact with yourself, and your presence will radiate
from you like a glow. This will continue until you have fully presented
yourself to others. The Zen people refer to this as "the Zen stink".  See:
http://www.godening.com/FAQ.htm
Surely not stage seven already?  ;-) ;-) ;-)
Aromatically and thornily yours,
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> Oh yes! And Ed has quite an aroma also. But those are just the things you
have to put up with if you're going to catch a baby tiger
¦Bill!



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Mayka,

You don't need a high level of intelligence to understand my last post.  All 
that's required is that you've read the posts for the past several days.

I don't think your intelligence level is appreciably different than Anthony's, 
but that doesn't matter on this forum.  Intelligence (as in IQ) is not a 
requirement for zen. In fact sometimes I think a high IQ is a detriment.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:28 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill:
 
You sound mysterious.  I wonder what you're trying to tell me.  Do remember 
that my intelligence is in much lower degree than the one from Anthony.
 
Mayka

--- On Wed, 10/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 7:16
  
Mayka,

Oh yes! And Ed has quite an aroma also. But those are just the things you have 
to put up with if you’re going to catch a baby tiger…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:04 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Do you think so?. 

--- On Wed, 10/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 1:19

Lovely? Maybe - but with LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of THORNS!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 11:05 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Nothing to forgive ED. You're also lovely in your own way.
Mayka

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 16:01

Mayka,
Do forgive me - it is just my ego obsessed with what is best for itself.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> ED;
> 
> If you would like to to know about whatever you want to know about Anthony 
> better ask him directly and not me. But if you ask me about the role he plays 
> in the forum I would say that he's a lovely character. I never seen his ego 
> deffending itself and no matter how badly at times he's been provoked. I 
> admire his modesty and kind character towards everyone.> 
> Mayka
> The "I/me/mine" in me responds: Does Anthony know or care about what others 
> in the forum know are best for themelves?
--ED

> > Only Anthony himself knows what is the best for him and not you.
> > Mayka

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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

In your post below you made two statements:

1. "Men behave toward each other differently when women are around than when
no women are around."
2. "Women behave toward each other differently when men are around than when
no men are around."

You could only have experienced one of these.  Which is it?

...Bill!

 

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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I am definitely underwhelmed at the sayings of the Dalai Lama.

He's supposed to be a big-time Buddhist leader and continues to encourage his 
countrymen to cling to their attachment to their culture and language.  Most of 
his quotes sound like bumper-stickers seen on 1960-vintage cars.

Don't worry about being 10,000 miles behind him.  That's not necessarily so.  
It all depends on which direction you're traveling.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:43 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill,
 
Whatever Dalai Lama says is sacred, because he is a Bodhisatva reincarnate. I 
try to emulate him, but found myself more than ten thousand miles behind.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 10/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 9:23 AM
  
Anthony,

Why do you think some things are sacred and some things are not? ...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:16 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Bill,

Of course, a monastry is different, as it is a place for sacred sex, in 
contrast to an orgyhouse, where there is nothing sacred.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 4:46 PM

Anthony,

Why do you think a monastery is different from any other place?

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


ED,

The point is they don't let you see and learn from.

If they do, what price is the ticket? I would stand in a long line to purchase 
it.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 6:42 AM 


> But it is a different matter when it is performed in a monastry.

What's the difference?
(I think it's OK, provided engaged in on the monastery roof, for all to see and 
learn from. ;-) )
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Kristy,
> 
> I appreciate your candor and enjoy your stories. I understand you had an 
> eventless nde, but colorful sex experiences. You should be satisfied. Why 
> should you question dharma, scriptures and the meaning of exitence? 
> 
> I know sex climax, LSD and ndes are all different, hard to compare. 
> Forgetting how a senior runner should perform for the time being, my original 
> question is how Tantra reconcile sexuality and Buddhism (LSD and nde are not 
> yet in the game). I am not against sex, as long as it is carried out in an 
> appropriate place, including an 'orgyhouse'. But it is a different matter 
> when it is performed in a monastry.
> 
> Anthony



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

Being a US citizen and according to the new rules and regulations placed on the 
financial sector, any offers based on derivatives are no longer allowed.

I checked my list today.  There is only one thing on it: 'impermanence'...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:40 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill,
 
Are widow ghosts on the list? Being 'derivatives' of human beings, they have no 
thorns.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 10/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 9:19 AM
  
Anthony,
 
I don’t know.  That’s a good question.  All I know is the list is correct each 
day after I update it.
 
…Bill! 
  
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:14 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  
  
Bill,
 
There is a contradiction here. If something is on your permanence list on a 
certain day. The next day, it disappears. Is that item still permanent, only 
hidden by you somewhere else, or it has become transient?
 
Anthony
 
This may be the fifteenth item on the 14 unsolvable questions on Buddha's list.

--- On Tue, 9/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 November, 2010, 4:43 PM 
  
Anthony,

I do indeed have a good idea on what is permanent. In fact I have a list. It 
changes every day.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 4:57 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Kristy,

Chuckles. It is hard to figure out a better reply. However, unfortunately all 
fun is transient. Maybe Bill has an idea on what is permanent.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 8/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 8 November, 2010, 12:16 PM

*s*

Perhaps.. but it sure isn't as much fun. I'll ponder a better reply ;) 

Kristy

--- On Sun, 11/7/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 7, 2010, 9:11 PM

Anthony and Kristy,

I don't disagree with your observations below, but couldn't you say the same 
thing about any activity into which you put your whole being - not just sex?

For example - bowling?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 4:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Kristy,

I understand. I am 71. When I was young, I had similar experiences, though not 
so often, as it depended on occassions and surroudings. Like you say, that 
explains why Tantrism puts so much significance on sexism, as it definitely is 
'spiritual', in addition to physical. However, there are other ways. How about 
heroin and other drugs? They induce similar experiences. I have not tried them, 
but read some 'fantastic' descriptions. On the other hand, near death 
experiences seem to be another type. There is bliss, but does not appear to be 
'mind blowing'. 

Anthony

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 6:44 PM

Anthony,

As I have neither the time nor expertise to substitute there.. let me offer a 
more serious thought. 

If you truly are asking a question about if or how sexuality intersects with 
spirituality, I can say that I had an experience wherein there was such a 
fusion of physical body and soul / heart / mind energies (however you interpret 
those), that it was as if space and time fell away or did not exist. There were 
no egos, secrets, inhibitions or thoughts. Consciousness and physicality 
merged. Its primal energy and primordial spirit. Animal intensity but somehow 
driven by a soul awareness for which there are no words. An intensity beyond 
measure and impossible to duplicate exactly. An intimacy so profound it felt 
like touching God-source (however defined). A complete acceptance of energy 
flow.

I couldn't speak for a day. My body tingled for nearly a week. I had no desire 
for food and drank only small amounts of water at a time for days. Its just 
un-defineable. Its experential.

But , for me, it left me believing in "spirit" (beit mind /heart or soul). k

--- On Sat, 11/6/10, Anthony Wu 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

Yes, the attempt at communication using words and sentence fragments that do
not themselves reflect dualisms (subject/object) is customary in zen.  It's
closer to poetry than prose.  I picked it up when going through koan study.
If you response to your teacher is verbal, it is usually rejected if it is
too dualistic in form.  Many times responses are non-verbal, like
[bow]-[turn around]-[walk away].

I sometimes refer to two different kinds of communication: 'zen talk' and
'talk about zen'.  Most of my posts are 'talk about zen', and not a direct
expression of zen.  This post is 'talk about zen'.  The second half of my
response below is an attempt at 'zen talk'.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:19 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
 
Bill,
Nice succinct answer. 
And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without subject or
object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to training the
mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing reality?
Thank you, ED
 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
Mayka and Ed,

Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!

...Bill!


Mayka,
Or perhaps as Bill might say:  Whatever is happening, the practicing
zenist's mind's effort is always directed toward remaining calm, alert and
aware in the here and now, in the state of 'just THIS', and as much as
possible without judgment, grasping, pushing away, conception-formation or
comment.
--ED
 
> ED:
>  
> In real life and face to face with people in the arena of zen there are no
women or men but just practicioners who sit down together and practice
together.  There is not as much chatting but all activities are made in
minfulness.
>  
> Mayka

 
> Mayka,
> You describe situations, preferences, choices and challenges that every
human encounters in interactions with other humans in the normal course of
life.
> The crucial question is: With what sort of mind does a zenist greet them
all?
> --ED

 
> Chris, ED and all:
>  
> To me is not a question about men or women but human beings.  There are
times I don't get on with certain type of men and there are times I find
difficult to get on with certain type of women.  There are very competitive
men and there are very competitive women but there are also all those to
whom value the most the quality contact they have with other human beings
regardless they are men or women.  In real life I also have some male
friend to whom first encounter was a disaster and then after some
disagrements and fights become very close friends. There is no difference
here for as long as the person in front of us is of the same wave of
thinking. 
>
> Mayka



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

You interpretation of 'zen stink' as being 'unpleasant to those who have not
reined in their aversions' has merit.

On the other it is a historical stylistic affectation in zen to compliment
others by saying things that appear to be negative and criticisms.  An
example would be calling someone's teaching style like a 'doting old
grandmother', which is a way of saying they are very gentle in their
teaching and perhaps don't require their students to work as independently
as other teacher.  'Zen stink' could just as well be interpreted as someone
who is so enthusiastic about their experience that their exuberance is a
little 'over-the-top'.

Either way I don't consider it a real criticism. It's just a colorfully
expressed observation.

...Bill! 

   
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:25 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Bill,
A stink by any name is still a stink, unpleasant to those who have not
reined in their aversions. OTOH, in some religious/spiritual traditions,
everything is God.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
Ed,

Since this is an e-forum I guess it would be more correctly called
e-stink...Bill!
 
 
 
Bill,
"Stage seven is the glow in which you are radiating yourself as truth. You
will feel totally in contact with yourself, and your presence will radiate
from you like a glow. This will continue until you have fully presented
yourself to others. The Zen people refer to this as "the Zen stink".  See:
http://www.godening.com/FAQ.htm
Surely not stage seven already?  ;-) ;-) ;-)
Aromatically and thornily yours,
--ED
 
> Mayka,
>
> Oh yes! And Ed has quite an aroma also. But those are just the things you
have to put up with if you're going to catch a baby tiger
¦Bill!



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

Actually I was just commenting on the logic of the two statements in what I
thought would be a humorous way.

The real subject is more complicated than it first appears.

Generally I think all people feel more free to act naturally around people
they know or believe share the same values.  Around others they are more
guarded or play a role they think is appropriate.

This could apply to same/different gender; but could also apply to
same/different race, nationality, religion age-group, etc...

This is, in my opinion, because of their egos (self).  When self melts away
these differences are not perceived to be important.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Bill,
All questions will be anwered in the course of our dialog.
However, in your opinion, judgment, knowledge, belief, observation or
experience, is the first statement true or false or something else?
In your opinion, judgment, knowledge, belief, observation or experience, is
the fsecond statement true or false or omething else?
Thanks, ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> In your post below you made two statements:
> 1. "Men behave toward each other differently when women are around than
when
> no women are around."

> 2. "Women behave toward each other differently when men are around than
when
> no men are around."
> You could only have experienced one of these. Which is it?
> 
> ...Bill!
 
 



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

I only have a low opinion of the Dalai Lama, not the Tibetans as a people.
In my opinion Tibetan Buddhism is not actually Buddhism, it is Lamaism in
some after-the-fact Buddhist wrappings.

All of these opinions are based on reading and are based on logic, not
direct experience.

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Boll,
You *appear* to have an aversion to Tibetans, Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai
Lama.
If you should choose to do so, I would like to hear whether you believe that
the aversion is based on compassion, and/or facts and logic and/or emotional
reactivity, and/or your experiences. 
Thank you, ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
Anthony,

I am definitely underwhelmed at the sayings of the Dalai Lama.

He's supposed to be a big-time Buddhist leader and continues to encourage
his
countrymen to cling to their attachment to their culture and language. Most
of
his quotes sound like bumper-stickers seen on 1960-vintage cars.

Don't worry about being 10,000 miles behind him. That's not necessarily so.
It
all depends on which direction you're traveling.

...Bill!



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RE: [Zen] Would zazen cure their malaise?

[BillSmart]

Ed,

You asked:  "...how many decades of zazen does it take to diffuse the stink
of the self's deluded feelings of specialness?"

My answer: None.

...Bill!


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Would zazen cure their malaise?

  
 
Rose,
Surely your mummy and daddy raised you to feel/think that you were/are a
princess and very, very special, (more special than all the other little
girls who were also raised by their mummies and daddies to feel/think that
they were princesses and very, very special?) No?
--ED
PS: Bill, in your estimation how many decades of zazen does it take to
diffuse the stink of the self's deluded feelings of specialness?
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P  wrote:
>
> I saw this article Ed. As a British woman, I would prefer less adventure
in my life, and don't mind housework :) Adventure imo is waaay overrated -
maybe this is why some of these women feel unsatisfied, they believe they're
missing out on something. As for wearing red, I've never noticed a
difference in mood from doing this. Maybe I'll give it another try...lol.
> 
> Rose
> Would zazen cure their malaise?  --ED

> 

> Millions of British women bored by their lives because of 'endless
housework, no money and a dull sex life' 
> 
> 
> By Daily Mail Reporter
> 11th November 2010
> Millions of women have complained they are stuck in a rut because their
lives are too ordinary, new research claimed yesterday. 
> 
> Six in ten disenchanted women in Britain say a lack of money, boredom with
the same routine and appearance and a general humdrum has made their lives
deathly dull. 
> 
> Of the 4,000 women polled, 28 per cent said they felt more 'ordinary' than
they did five  years ago. 
> 
> 
> Stuck in a rut: Women complained a lack of adventure and endless housework
had turned their lives humdrum
> The report reveals how a 'malaise' is affecting the way women look, feel
and style themselves and their surroundings. 
> 
> The unsatisfied lot blamed a limited social life and lack of adventure in
style and the bedroom as the key reasons for their malaise. 
> 
> A lack of confidence which makes women feel insecure about how witty or
clever they feel was also blamed. 
> 
> To make it worse, four in ten women are dreading a winter of discontent as
they say the cold season is when they feel most average.
> A quarter of women admit that feeling generic affects their confidence and
holds them back in life and work. 
> 
> One in five fret that their dress sense is slipping and fear they are
starting to look like their mothers. 
> 
> The report came from research carried out by fashion internet site
very.co.uk. 
> 
> The general malaise is also infecting women's wardrobes with black being
the most common colour in half of women's wardrobes. 
> 
> Those polled also admit to a pedestrian uniform of jeans and a t-shirt (37
per cent) or an unflattering ensemble of jogging bottoms and a cardigan (35
per cent), with only one in ten women regularly wearing something bright and
bold. 
> 
> Something as simple as wearing red can boost a woman's confidence,
according to research
> Behavioural expert Judi James said: 'The research shows how easy it is for
us to fall into an ordinary trap. Worrying about jobs and finances makes us
want to take fewer risks which in turn can make us feel more ordinary and
have an affect on our happiness, confidence and self-esteem. 
> 
> 'Making small but regular changes like breaking bland habits, consciously
adjusting body language to be more upbeat, and using mood-enhancing colours
in both dress and decor can be an easy and instant way to reboot positivity
and happiness levels.'   

> 
> The report, entitled Very Ordinary Britain, quizzed women aged 18 to 65 on
how happy they were with different aspects of their life. 
> 
> A lack of time, energy and a fear of speaking up and rocking the boat
means that one woman in three is sticking with the status quo.  
> 
> 
> Most claim they are happy in their current relationships - but one in ten
felt like they could do with ditching their current partner and having a
change. 
> 
> A fifth said they were bored of their sex life, while 48 per cent said
they would be happier with life if they had more decent clothes to wear.  

> 
> More than half said they would feel better if they treated themselves to a
whole new wardrobe or a make-over. 
> 
> Nearly all admit that adding colour to their appearance makes them feel
happier and more attractive to the opposite sex. A third (32 per cent) think
wearing colours has helped them in job interviews, and a fifth (21 per cent)
think it makes them work harder.  
> 
> For two fifths of women, wearing the colour red is the biggest counter to
feeling extraordinary. 
> 
> A disenchanted four in ten said they would do things differently if they
had the

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone).  That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture.  For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed.  In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns.  This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:53 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
The Geography of Thought: How Culture Colors the Way the Mind ...
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the
oriental way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, while
the latter analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, adverbials
and other nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, the
westerners are more discriminating (in general).
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle that one
should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one aspires to
attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not
discriminate between subject and object.
> --ED
> > ED,
> > 
> > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill is
completely adjusted to Thailand, and the zen way. They are very grammatical
here.
> > 
> > Anthony
 
> > Bill,
> > Nice succinct answer. 
> > And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without
subject or object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to
 training the mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing
reality?
> > Thank you, ED
 
> > Mayka and Ed,
> > 
> > Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
> > pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!
> > 
> > ...Bill!



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Lluis,

In the example I used ‘Hungry?’ you are correct that the subject (you) is
implied probably because it is a question.  How about ‘Hungry!’;  or better
yet ‘Fire!’?.  In the case of ‘Fire!’ there is no subject/object implied –
just ‘Fire!’, Just THIS!

It’s interesting to learn that Finnish has a lot of words to define
relationships.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 4:06 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
I beg to differ in two non zen questions
-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same
in english.
 
-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the
relationship within family.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

 

Actually Thai does not really have three tenses as I said, not in the same way 
as English or Spanish has.  They only have one form of a verb – Present tense.  
They use modifiers to designate other tenses, but only two other tenses I know 
of – Past and Future.

 

An example would be the transliteration of the Thai word for ‘go’ is ‘bai’ 
(pronounced like ‘bye’).  So:

 

‘go’ would be ‘bai’

‘gone’ or ‘have gone’ would be ‘bai laow’ (like ‘go already’)

‘will go’ would be ‘ja bai’

 

That’s it.  As far as I know there is no way to translate something like ‘By 
next Tuesday I will have been going to class for 5 weeks’.

 

Thai’s also have 5 tones: high, medium, low, rising and falling.  These tones 
could be applied to any word (syllable) such as ‘mai’.  The syllable ‘mai’, 
depending on the tone used, could mean: ‘new’, ‘wood’, ‘no’, ‘burn’ or denote a 
question if placed at the end of a statement (with a rising tone).  So the 
question ‘New word doesn’t burn, does it?’ could be expressed using only the 
syllable ‘mai’ with different tones like this: ‘wood new no burn [question]’.

 

How would you say that in Finnish?

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


Bill,

 

Oriental languages do not deemphasize time or personal relationships. They rely 
on adjectives, adverbs, pronouns etc to donate time and relationships, while 
westerners inflect the words for the same purposes.

 

I am surprised to hear Thai has three tenses. Where are they?

 

Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 3:09 PM

  

Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 ] On 
Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:53 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
The Geography of Thought: How Culture Colors the Way the Mind ...
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 , 
Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the
oriental way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, while
the latter analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, adverbials
and other nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, the
westerners are more discriminating (in general).
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle that one
should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one aspires to
attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not
discriminate between subject and object.
> --ED
> > ED,
> > 
> > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill is
completely adjusted to Thailand, and the zen way. They are very grammatical
here.
> > 
> > Anthony
 
> > Bill,
> > Nice succinct answer. 
> > And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without
subject or object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to
 training the mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing
reality?
> > Thank you, ED
 
> > Mayka and Ed,
> > 
> > Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
> > pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!
> > 
> > ...Bill!

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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I’m sure you’ve seen a dog with only three legs.  It doesn’t suffer, at least 
doesn’t suffer from the self-pity that most humans would have.

The self-pity (or envy) is what the Buddhist ‘suffering’ refers to – not 
physical discomforts such as pain, hunger, etc…

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:51 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
ED,
 
Your picture says, 'if you don't ask, you don't suffer'. That is nonsense. 
Suffering exists whether you ask or not. The difference is whether you know it.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 10:48 AM
  

Anthony,
Expressed simply and with greater inclusivenes, all living things (humans, 
animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, etc.)  seek their own self-interest, namely, 
to eat, survive and reproduce.
--ED
 
The Science of "Why We Suffer"

http://appliedbuddhism.com/2010/08/30/the-science-of-%E2%80%9Cwhy-we-suffer/
 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> I am 90% in agreement with you. That is the result of human's greed, aversion 
> and delusion.
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> 
> That's the way human nature has evolved.
> 
> --ED

 
> > ED,
> >
> > You are saying (almost): everybody is a hypocrite. Is that the way the
> > world is?
> >
> > anthony




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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

Thai’s do an unusual thing with names.  Their names are basically the same as 
Western names: given name – family name.  But when they list them 
alphabetically, like in a phone book, they alphabetize by the first (given) 
name.   That presents as  little problem for computer programs…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:23 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
ED/Lluis,
 
I know nothing about Finnish, but I heard it is related to Hungarian, both have 
something to do with Jenghis Khan or Atila's migration to the west. I also 
heard the Hungarians put their given names after the familay names. For 
example, it will be Smart Bill (sounds better), instead of Bill Smart. Is that 
right?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 2:56 AM
  
 
"Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
depending on their roles in the sentence.
Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.
The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
Hi, Bill
 
I beg to differ in two non zen questions
-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
english.
 
-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
relationship within family.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 

  
Anthony,

I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf





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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

You surprise me!  Your Thai is very good, and you even used the word ‘ha’ for 
‘look for’.  That’s an Issan word.  That's my area of Thailand.  The Bangkok 
Thai word would be ‘pope’ as in ‘discover’.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:36 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
ED/Lluis,
 
Thai should definitely be moved closer to Chinese. They are so similar.
 
You can ask Bill. Most westerners in the beginning are bewildered by a sentence:
 
Mi khon ma ha khun (have man come look-for you, meaning somebody is here to see 
you. In Chinese, there are exactly five same words: you ren lai zhao ni).
 
Japanese and Koreans are outstanding in Asia. There are inflections in their 
verbs and adjectives. Maybe they are related with Hungarians and Finnish.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 5:33 AM
  

Hi Lluis,
'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of 
languages.  See chart below.
With best wishes,
--ED
 
http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm
Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations
The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements and distribution prior to the 
early historical presence of Indo-European speakers across northern Europe and 
Asia. I have never seen explanations of the actual evidence for the 
Basque-Chinese connection. 

 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Well, I am at lost in what you mind
> 
> I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
> (so, roots in east).
> But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
 
Hi Lluis,
> "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
> typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
> inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
> depending on their roles in the sentence.
> 
> Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
> languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
> Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
> spoken around the Baltic Sea.
> 
> The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
> neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
> language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
> therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
> Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
>Wist best wishes, 
> --ED
 
> Hi, Bill
> 
> I beg to differ in two non zen questions
> -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
> The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
> english.
> 
> -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
> relationship within family.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
 
> Anthony,
> 
> I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
> thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.
> 
> For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
> saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
> casual in your speech.
> 
> I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
> example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
> there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
> identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
> there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
> think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

Issan is indeed a Thai dialect.  It's kind of a blend of Thai and Lao.

It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai ethnic mix.  
Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems to also have 
a lot of Indian qualities.  And physically I think the people that look the 
closest to Thais are Filipinos.  In fact several times my wife was approached 
by Filipinos while we were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino 
also.

...Bill!   

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:42 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill,

It does not matter whether 'ha' is a dialect or a standard word, though it is 
in the textbook. My point is to stress the same root shared by Thais and 
Chinese Hans. More than 4 thousand years ago, in north China, there were 3 
emperors, the Yellow Emperor, the White Emperor and Ciyou. The latter was the 
strongest and defeated the other two repeatedly. But eventually the two united 
and prevailed over Ciyou. Then he had to flee southward to spread his 
descendents in southern provinces. A group of offspring are now the Thais. You 
can imagine how many wives Ciyou had to take to produce such a big number of 
people?

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 11:44 AM
  
Anthony,

You surprise me! Your Thai is very good, and you even used the word ‘ha’ for 
‘look for’. That’s an Issan word. That's my area of Thailand. The Bangkok Thai 
word would be ‘pope’ as in ‘discover’.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:36 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

ED/Lluis,

Thai should definitely be moved closer to Chinese. They are so similar.

You can ask Bill. Most westerners in the beginning are bewildered by a sentence:

Mi khon ma ha khun (have man come look-for you, meaning somebody is here to see 
you. In Chinese, there are exactly five same words: you ren lai zhao ni).

Japanese and Koreans are outstanding in Asia. There are inflections in their 
verbs and adjectives. Maybe they are related with Hungarians and Finnish.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 5:33 AM


Hi Lluis,
'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of 
languages. See chart below.
With best wishes,
--ED

http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm
Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations
The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements and distribution prior to the 
early historical presence of Indo-European speakers across northern Europe and 
Asia. I have never seen explanations of the actual evidence for the 
Basque-Chinese connection. 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Well, I am at lost in what you mind
> 
> I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
> (so, roots in east).
> But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís

Hi Lluis,
> "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
> typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
> inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
> depending on their roles in the sentence.
> 
> Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
> languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
> Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
> spoken around the Baltic Sea.
> 
> The Finns are more genetically simil

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed and Lluis,

Maybe the Basques are direct descendents of the Ancient Astronauts, or
survivors of Atlantis.  What do you think?  …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Thanks for map
> 
> They forget the basques...
 
Hi Lluis,
The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been
fully resolved yet.
 
>From wiki:
"Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought
that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the
spread of Indo-European languages there.
It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western
Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes
were already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the
Vascones, the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they
already spoke Basque in that time.
The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque
contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the
large Indo-European language family. 
Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in
situ, in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other
modern European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or
prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of
cultural transmission.[19]
Theories about Basque origins
The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a
pre-Indo-European population of Europe.
DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test
the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's
disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result
of DNA analysis, "...there is a general scientific consensus that the
Basques represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who
dwelt in Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic
and genetic evidence..."
Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility
of a connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and
Cornwall. The shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a
genetic bottleneck during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the
two peoples were in Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably
45,000 to 50,000 years ago.
Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from
the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism
preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis
tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques
in the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from
West Asia."
> Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they
are not related genetically
> 
> a) something is missing in study
> b) language has nothing to do with population origin
> 
> Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
> I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans
are completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
> 
> Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what
ever one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
> A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation,
that could show a very distorted image of reality.
> Would be like to see world through a small hole.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed and Lluis,

It’s an accepted fact that 64.7% of all statistics are just made up on the
spot and not based on any kind of research at all.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:00 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Ed
 
Thanks for map
 
They forget the basques...
 
Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they
are not related genetically
 
a) something is missing in study
b) language has nothing to do with population origin
 
Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans
are completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
 
Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever
one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation,
that could show a very distorted image of reality.
Would be like to see world through a small hole.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: ED 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Genetic map of Europe
http://bigthink.com/ideas/21358
"Two observations spring to mind immediately: the fact that most populations
overlap so intimately with their neighbours. And that Finland doesn't.
The isolation of Finnish genetics can be explained by the fact that they
were at one time a very small population, preserving its genetic
idiosyncrasies as it expanded."
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Sorry for my poor english
> I tried to mean that the rest of europeans, excluding finnish, and for
that, hungarians, lapons and seems basques, speak an indo european idiom.
And probably population origin in Asia
> 
> Finnish are also westerner in my mindset (yes, it s said that they come
here as invaders, with Attila; so maybe central asia origin)
> 
> I do not see them as easterner language..But not being a linguist, I maybe
very well wrong,
> 
> Anyway, there is (or at least was) an extreme moviment in Hungarian that
relates them as related to japanese, the turanism. 
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
 



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from SOt. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

When others sit down and shut up, those are the happiest moments for me…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 6:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from SOt. Thomas Aquinas

  
Of course, sit down and shup up are the happiest moment.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 7:20 AM
  

Mayka,
And many happy returns of the same to you!  ;-)
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
ED;
 
Sit down
Shut up
And you will know 
 
Mayka
 




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!QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action.  That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism.  If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had.  There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)


DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
 frog
  plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'?  The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences.  Language
evolved, not engineered.  It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a
logical structure on an evolved system.  The grammatical rules that we
associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT
with the language.  For example humans could speak and communicate very well
before anyone ever decided to categorize words into nouns, verbs, subjects
and objects.  All this grammar is imposed upon language in an attempt to
'understand' language.  'Understand' always means 'impose a logical
structure'.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Hungry! has also an implied subject: I am hungry!
 
Fire! has also one, "it" : It is in fire! (although could be also "there is
a fire!" and that would be impersonal, I suppose)
Uggh!
Y only know true impersonals (no subject ) in spanish, catalan and french
 
On vende .
Se vende botellas ("se venden botellas" is a pasiva refleja, not a true
impersonal That drived me crazy in Bacchaloreat)
 
Seems that westerners are tied to sujects and verbs.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

In the example I used ‘Hungry?’ you are correct that the subject (you) is
implied probably because it is a question. How about ‘Hungry!’; or better
yet ‘Fire!’?. In the case of ‘Fire!’ there is no subject/object implied –
just ‘Fire!’, Just THIS!

It’s interesting to learn that Finnish has a lot of words to define
relationships.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 4:06 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
I beg to differ in two non zen questions
-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same
in english.
 
-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the
relationship within family.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
ide

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

[BillSmart]

Kristy,

I buy from Amazon occasionally, and plan to continue to do so.  They have a 
broad selection of topics,  easy search facilities and do a good job with 
international shipping.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

  
Anthony,
 
Not to interrupt the dialogue here, but I happened to see this when searching a 
medical topic.  *!*??($...@^  
 
Have you read this?  I'm assuming no one here is buying from Amazon...
 
Have a good week:)  k
 
 
Sex, Sin, and Zen: A Buddhist Exploration of Sex from Celibacy to Polyamory and 
Everything in Between [Paperback]
Brad Warner  
Brad Warner (Author) 
› Visit Amazon's Brad Warner Page
Find all the books, read about the author, and more.
See search results for this author 
Are you an author? Learn about Author Central 
(Author) 
4.3 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (10 customer reviews) 
10 Reviews 
5 star:(6) 
4 star:(2) 
3 star:(1) 
2 star:(1) 
1 star: (0) 

› See all 10 customer reviews...  



List Price: $14.95 
Price: $10.17 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. 
Details  
You Save: $4.78 (32%)  
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 
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In Stock.
Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.  

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--- On Sat, 11/13/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:

 




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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

[BillSmart]

Kristy,

 

I’ve heard about the pedophile book also.  If it has broken any laws, then that 
can and should be dealt with directly, but I refuse to let Anderson Cooper 
(CNN) and hopefully not even Amazon decide what  (legal) books are appropriate 
for me.

 

…Bill!

  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:37 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

 

  


Bill,

 

I know. I  have bought as well.   I was just referring to the recent *buzz* 
over the "How-to-Be-a-Better-Pedophile" book offered  on Amazon.  Resulting in 
an outrage and the Ban-Amazon websites.  Yes-- I know.  People care more about 
cheap books--  They say we vote with our wallet.  Do we or don't we?

 

But actually, I was just asking Anthony  if he knew of this book?

 

Be well:)

 

Kristy



--- On Sun, 11/14/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 14, 2010, 9:07 PM

  

Kristy,

I buy from Amazon occasionally, and plan to continue to do so. They have a 
broad selection of topics, easy search facilities and do a good job with 
international shipping.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 ] On 
Behalf Of Kristy McClain
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Anthony,

Not to interrupt the dialogue here, but I happened to see this when searching a 
medical topic. *!*??($...@^ 

Have you read this? I'm assuming no one here is buying from Amazon...

Have a good week:) k


Sex, Sin, and Zen: A Buddhist Exploration of Sex from Celibacy to Polyamory and 
Everything in Between [Paperback]
Brad Warner 
Brad Warner (Author) 
› Visit Amazon's Brad Warner Page
Find all the books, read about the author, and more.
See search results for this author 
Are you an author? Learn about Author Central 
(Author) 
4.3 out of 5 stars See all reviews (10 customer reviews) 
10 Reviews 
5 star: (6) 
4 star: (2) 
3 star: (1) 
2 star: (1) 
1 star: (0) 

› See all 10 customer reviews... 

--
List Price: $14.95 
Price: $10.17 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. 
Details 
You Save: $4.78 (32%) 
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 

In Stock.
Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available. 

Want it delivered Tuesday, November 16? Order it in the next 19 hours and 49 
minutes, and choose One-Day Shipping at checkout. Details 


--- On Sat, 11/13/10, Anthony Wu http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wuasg%40yahoo.com.sg> > wrote:

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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language.  I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind.  When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language.  It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well.  In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.'  It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans.  And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience.  As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language
evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a
logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we
associate with languages hav

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Mayka,

That's a very good question.

A zen haiku, if it is indeed meant to communicate a direct experience, should 
only communicate Just THIS!.  That being the case it deals with only NOW, and 
not a series of events that happen over time.  Just THIS! has no time, no 
action.  There is only the visual awareness of the frog, the visual awareness 
of the pond and the aural (sound) awareness of the sound of the frog jumping 
into the pond.

The order these are presented would make no difference since in the direct 
experience they all appear together at the same time, the only time - NOW.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:09 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill and Lluis:
 
Woud it be any difference in its meaning the altered order translated in the 
different languages?. 
 
LLuis said:
Rana = Frog
Charco = Pond
Chop!   = Plop
 
Bill Said:
pond = charco
frog =  rana
plop! = chop!  (James Kirkup)
 
Thanks 
Mayka

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:

From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 15:02
  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages have 
a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement, making this 
way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have never heard 
before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language. 
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are not 
for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other way), 
or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the frog 
makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language
evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a
logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we
associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT
with the language. For example humans could speak and communicate very well
before anyone ever decided to categorize words into nouns, verbs, subjects
and objects. All this grammar is imposed upon language in an attempt to
'understand' language. 'Understand' always means 'impose a logical
structure'.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Chris and Lluis,

 

I’m not saying that humans do not have physical qualities that have evolved and 
are a pre-requisite to language.  You describe these in your post below as a 
“…genetic disposition towards certain types of linguistic forms.”.  This could 
include a range of frequencies that our vocal chords can generate and the range 
of frequencies that our ear can hear, as well as this “…bias in the brain…” 
that Chomsky probably refers to as ‘metalanguage’.

 

I believe your claim below that  “Chomsky does make a big distinction between 
the actual languages as spoken by people and the subsequent theories about that 
language made up by the people.” expresses the same idea as I meant when I 
differentiated between spoken language and grammar.

 

…Bill! 



 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
ChrisAustinLane
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  

The most interesting fact that Chomsky discovered is that children learning a 
language have a wide variety of possible mistakes that they never make. I don't 
recall the examples now, but every kids struggles to make certain tricky sounds 
and with subject verb agreement, but linguists have big sets of data from 
recording kids and have found patterns of error that are not once made. This 
evidence of a bias in the brain away from random generation of possible 
sentences is why some guess there is some genetic disposition towards certain 
types of linguistic forms. 

Chomsky does make a big distinction between the actual languages as spoken by 
people and the subsequent theories about that language made up by the people. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:27, mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> > wrote:

> Lluis,
> 
> Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
> 'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
> discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
> could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
> to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
> be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
> attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
> know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
> exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
> structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.
> 
> So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
> 'metalanguage', that I disagree.
> 
> I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
> something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
> communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
> because most languages are dualistically-based.
> 
> I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
> sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
> 'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
> later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
> there.'
> 
> ...Bill! 
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com   
> [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com  ] On 
> Behalf
> Of Lluís Mendieta
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com  
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
> 
> 
> Hi, Bill
> 
> Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
> But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages
> have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
> making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
> never heard before.
> So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
> Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
> Just the language (or just this)
> 
> The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
> communicated.
> Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
> not for you.
> You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
> way), or you feel not.
> No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
> 
> Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
> 
> P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
> Rana
> Charco
> Chop!
> 
> would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
> frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: billsm...@hhs1963.org   
> To: Zen_

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium.  This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence.  I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other.  Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.  Just observe (through  
reading)  the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was

RE: [Zen] Maezumi Roshi and Dharma heirs

[BillSmart]

Ed,

I received zen training at ZCLA beginning right after its opening in 1967.
My first teacher there was Koryu Roshi, a lay Rinzai Zen Master.  His Dharma
successor was Maezumi Roshi.  I began my koan study under Koryu Roshi and
continued it under Maezumi Roshi when Koryu Roshi returned to Japan because
of his age and health.  I believe he was over 80 at that time.  He was the
Dharma successor of a Japanese Zen Master named Joko Roshi (not to be
confused with Charlotte Joko Beck).  He was also a Japanese lay teacher in
the Rinzai line and did not ordain his successors.  Koyru Roshi did not
offer ordination either.  He definitely stressed lay practice.

The total period of which I was directly associated with ZCLA was about 10
years, but about half was with Koryu Roshi and half with Maezumi Roshi - not
10 years with Maezumi.

The only two Dharma successors I really knew well were Tetsugen (Bernie as I
called him) who I still keep in touch with, and Gempo (who we all called
Gempo).  I am less familiar with Joko since by the time she was studying
with Maezumi I had moved to Oregon and only attended sesshins 2 or 3 times a
year.  During that period I did keep in very close contact with Maezumi and
in fact hosted him in my home in Oregon during a visit he made there to
attend a function at the University of Oregon.

While I was studying under Maezumi he did not display any ‘idiosyncrasies’
that I felt detracted from my training.  I certainly know what you are
referring to, but none of his personal issues ever affected me - to my
knowledge.

As you probably know Tetsugen and Gempo turned out very differently.
Tetusgen has given up his title of roshi and teaches now as a lay teacher.
Gempo has retained his title of roshi, but has developed his own training
program (Big Mind) which include Western psychological techniques.

Both of them, however, certainly did not turn out to be fundamentalist Zen
Buddhist teachers.

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:14 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Maezumi Roshi and Dharma heirs

  
 
Bill,
You said you had studied with Maezumi Roshi for ten years. In view of the
roshi's idiosycracies, in your experience, did his Dharma successors (and in
particular Loori and Merzel) turn out to be kosher/halal teachers?
Thanks,
--ED
 
Maezumi-roshi gave Dharma transmission to the following individuals:
Tetsugen Bernard Glassman
Dennis Genpo Merzel
Charlotte Joko Beck
Jan Chozen Bays
John Daido Loori
Gerry Shishin Wick
John Tesshin Sanderson
Alfred Jitsudo Ancheta
Charles Tenshin Fletcher
Susan Myoyu Andersen
Nicolee Jikyo McMahon
William Nyogen Yeo
 



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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent.  Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma.  It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings.  Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”.  

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?”  Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi, Bill

Well, I am jus

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

[BillSmart]

Ed and Kristy,

I didn't mean to be overly restrained.  I can only give you my impressions of 
them before they became Dharma successors and were just two of a group of monks 
and students at the center - albeit 2 of the most senior and seemingly advanced 
students.  I will say that I was always more comfortable with Bernie then 
Gempo.  Gempo just seemed a little less approachable, but I’ve always just 
wrote that off as just a personality mismatch.

…Bill!


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 5:08 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

  
Ed,
 
Well then, it seems we all are "underwhelmed" by Gempo...k


--- On Tue, 11/16/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 10:43 AM
  


Kristy,

My (slight) interest in Gempo was aroused by your mention of him.

Bill has been restrained in his speech about his dharma brothers.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain 
wrote:
>
> Though Ed and Bill seem more knowledgeable about Gempo and Big Mind
than I.Â




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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

No THEORY or CONCEPT is absolutely any better than another.  One theory may fit 
the observed 'facts' better in one circumstance, and another competing theory 
may fit the 'facts' better in a different circumstance.

A better theory for me than karma is no karma.  No karma, no self, no theories, 
Just THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:21 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

  
Kristy,
 
If karma did not exist, why were you born a smart woman, why I, stupid man? 
What is a better theory than karma?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, Kristy McClain  wrote:

From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 6:18 AM
  
Anthony,
 
You are starting with a premise that karma exists. How do you know it does?  k 

--- On Tue, 11/16/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:

From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 1:13 PM
  
Mayka/ED,
 
Most of us are deeply bound by karma so that we are bored by 'just this'. I 
believe we can find satisfaction by just sitting down and eventual 
enlightenment, but we are way from that 'goal'. So perhaps Bill can improve his 
way of teaching like guiding children away from their toys.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 16/11/10, Maria Lopez  wrote:

From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 16 November, 2010, 7:17 PM
  
ED:
 
Thank you for both links.  It's been particularly interesting reading 
controversial Brad W reply in connection with Big Mind and Genpo Roshi...and my 
conclusion about the whole thing is,  that hearts feel profoundly grateful for 
having found Thich Nhat Hanh dharma in those years in which his home was not 
too crowded, not too  polluted by westerners speculation, aggression and most 
of it self, ego.  There are teachings that shouldn't be passed onto westerners 
in such a light way.  Big Mind might be one of those (I wouln't know because 
first hearing was in American websites) .  And yet there is the possibility 
that in the original eastern environment (perhaps under a differente name)  
have the effect of a most powerful way of breaking through the self by exposing 
it. Building up a bond in the process with other practitioners sailing in the 
same boat.
 
People don't want the simplicity of Buddhism and not certainly zen.  I wouldn't 
put the blame to anyone but just in oneself incapacity of seeing what is there 
presented in simplicity.  For instance Anthony himself has  pointed out more 
than once the boredom of "just this" or sitting down.  We look for excitement 
all the time.  No one external to blame afterwards if we get hurt but just 
oneselves 
 
Mayka

--- On Tue, 16/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 16 November, 2010, 5:44
  

"Big Mind"
"Merzel began developing the "Big Mind" process in 1999, after having taught 
more traditional Zen meditation and koan study for more than twenty years. The 
process is intended to allow anyone — including non-Buddhists — to experience 
"the enlightenment of the Buddha". 
The process is designed as a combination of Eastern meditation and Western 
psychological techniques to transmit the essence of Zen teachings in a way that 
is readily accessible and relevant to Westerners, a realization they can 
further deepen through meditation.
The Big Mind process is claimed to enable participants to get in touch with 
various aspects of themselves by inviting them to identify as and speak from 
these aspects or states of mind. 
The teacher walks participants through interactions with different aspects of 
their mind, including ordinary, finite ones such as the Protector, the Skeptic 
and Desiring Mind; and possibly less familiar, "transcendent" ones such as the 
"Non-Seeking/Non-Grasping Mind", "the Way", and "Big Mind and Big Heart".
Since 1999, he has offered workshops to more than 20,000 individuals all around 
the world. In addition to presentations in cities in North America and Europe, 
Genpo Roshi has made "Big Mind" available on DVDs and online.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Genpo_Merzel#cite_note-4
Also see: 
http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2010/04/big-mind-sucks-part-million.html
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
Chris,
 
To the contrary. I do not recommend Big Mind , necessarily.  In fact, I have 
said here that it is not a process that works for me. It seems a bit like group 
therapy, but not about zen.  
 
I know it well, as I have a home in UT, (though I live in CA).  Gempo Roshi's  
zen center is just two miles from my home there.   I did attend many meditation 
 groups , classes and even a few  retreats there..   I am friends with Diane 
Musho Hamilton, and

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

‘Cooking it up’ is a good theory, and as good as the Vulture Peak version.  The 
important thing is that you liked it.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM
  
Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' I

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

If you want Chris to post more, don’t tell him you want him to post more.  That 
won’t upset him.

If you want to upset him try making fun of his bicycle, or urge ED to post more.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:40 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

  
Chris,
 
I want you to post more. How do I upset you more?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, ChrisAustinLane  wrote:

From: ChrisAustinLane 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" 
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:18 PM
  
ED:  

Your posts do have a tendency to come off as being sly and a bit mean, despite 
your claim to have transcended karma, I mean Judeo-Christian notions of 
morality. 

You will recall that Mayka's posts also rub some people the wrong way, a 
phenomenon that has been thoroughly dissected here and attributed to some 
interesting linguistic goings on and the off bit of whoop ass. 

Perhaps you will share what you see as the causes for people to mis-read your 
intent in your posts.  Perhaps you won't trust this forum that much. 

If you say that the causes are all external to you, I have to comment that 
there is not a dividing line between ED and Mayka. 

For the record, I found your use of the word "restrained" to described Bill's 
right speech to make me think you were being sly, and your reply to Mayka to 
definitely communicate negative emotional content. 

Thanks, 
Chris Austin-Lane, who definitely is more likely to post here when upset than 
when not upset 
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 17, 2010, at 6:25, "ED"  wrote:

Mayka:
Is it mama patting Billy on the head for being a good boy? 
Or is it a product of the fecal finger-pointing Judeo-Christian tradition?
Or is it the historical Spanish inquisitorial spirit rearing its ugly head?
Or is it something else?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Bill:
>  
> You would have been in your right not to give a reply to malicious posting.  
>  
> Mayka

 
> Ed and Kristy,
> 
> I didn't mean to be overly restrained. I can only give you my impressions of 
> them before they became Dharma successors and were just two of a group of 
> monks and students at the center - albeit 2 of the most senior and seemingly 
> advanced students. I will say that I was always more comfortable with Bernie 
> then Gempo. Gempo just seemed a little less approachable, but I've always 
> just wrote that off as just a personality mismatch.
> 
> ...Bill!

 
> Ed,
> 
> Well then, it seems we all are "underwhelmed" by Gempo...k

 
> Kristy,
> 
> My (slight) interest in Gempo was aroused by your mention of him.
> 
> Bill has been restrained in his speech about his dharma brothers.
> 
> --ED
 




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RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[BillSmart]

Ed and Kristy,

First of all I do want to echo Kristy’s first point which she phrased as a 
question.  I too would much rather ED (or anyone who posts) tell us your 
opinion on something.  Second best (but still acceptable) is for you to first 
express your opinion and then back it up with a reference to someone else.  I 
think the worst case is when you just post a URL to someone else’s opinion.  
You may think this is a way to pass information in a neutral manner, but it is 
second-hand information, and information on which there can be no interactive 
discussion with the originator of the opinion.

Usually I don’t even go to links if there it is not there to support something 
else in the post; but I did go to this one and looked at about the first 2 
minutes of the video.

So secondly I must adamantly disagree with Genpo on the dynamics of a zen 
teacher-student relationship.  He described it as a necessarily hierarchical 
relationship: the teacher (roshi) higher than the student.  He used an example 
a water system were the Dharma was the water, the roshi was the faucet and the 
student was an empty cup.  The dynamics of the relationship were that the 
Dharma necessarily flowed through the teacher to the student.  This is 
absolutely incorrect.

The dynamics and relationships are not hierarchical, they are horizontal or 
parallel.  Using the water system analogy, BOTH the teacher and the student 
comprise the complete water system.  The are both the water source, the pipes 
and the faucet.  Presumably the teacher has experience in turning on the faucet 
and accessing the water, and the student does not.  The teacher can only 
demonstrate how he/she accesses the water and make some suggestions.  The 
student must learn how to turn on the faucet for himself.

The point is that Dharma does not flow THROUGH the teacher to the student.  If 
that’s the relationship Genpo believes is necessary and that he demands, then 
he has strayed very far from the teachings of Maezumi Roshi.

I will direct you to a link which will fully support my position on this.  To 
access the link you only need to sit quietly and count your breathes.

…Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:06 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

  
Ed,
 
So do you have a comment about this?
 
To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Genpo say  this to  a student, I 
do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to confront the student with 
his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".  Gempo was visably irritated, and his 
body language, tone of voice and entire behavior indicated that he, himself,  
had simply lost control.  As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand 
this guy.  He can talk non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling 
on and on with what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as 
brilliant,  I cannot understand most of what he says.
 
I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack Kornfield, TNH, 
Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But perhaps it is also telling to 
note that this is a teaching style I avoided as not right for  me.
 
Kristy


--- On Wed, 11/17/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 1:21 PM
  
 
The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs  (8:44)




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RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[BillSmart]

I've got more to say on this subject.

A water system is not a good analogy to use at all.  Just breathing would be a 
better analogy.

When the teacher breathes he/she is very aware of the air going in and out of 
his/her lungs.  The student breathes, but he/she is not aware of the air going 
in and out.  The student is too busy thinking about other things and doesn't 
pay any attention to the air.  Both breathe.  One does it mindfully and one is 
not aware of it.  The teacher doesn't control the air and is certainly not the 
'faucet' from which the student has to get his/her air.

The teacher teaches awareness of what already is and readily available.

There is never any dependency of the student on the teacher.  From what I've 
seen of Genpo's teaching approach, however, it appears to spring from a 
dependency of the teacher on the student - a dependency of Genpo to be 
recognized as the necessary conduit (faucet) to the Dharma by his students.

...Bill!

> -Original Message-
> From: billsm...@hhs1963.org [mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:23 AM
> To: 'Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi &
> Andrew Cohen
> 
> Ed and Kristy,
> 
> First of all I do want to echo Kristy’s first point which she phrased
> as a question.  I too would much rather ED (or anyone who posts) tell
> us your opinion on something.  Second best (but still acceptable) is
> for you to first express your opinion and then back it up with a
> reference to someone else.  I think the worst case is when you just
> post a URL to someone else’s opinion.  You may think this is a way to
> pass information in a neutral manner, but it is second-hand
> information, and information on which there can be no interactive
> discussion with the originator of the opinion.
> 
> Usually I don’t even go to links if there it is not there to support
> something else in the post; but I did go to this one and looked at
> about the first 2 minutes of the video.
> 
> So secondly I must adamantly disagree with Genpo on the dynamics of a
> zen teacher-student relationship.  He described it as a necessarily
> hierarchical relationship: the teacher (roshi) higher than the student.
> He used an example a water system were the Dharma was the water, the
> roshi was the faucet and the student was an empty cup.  The dynamics of
> the relationship were that the Dharma necessarily flowed through the
> teacher to the student.  This is absolutely incorrect.
> 
> The dynamics and relationships are not hierarchical, they are
> horizontal or parallel.  Using the water system analogy, BOTH the
> teacher and the student comprise the complete water system.  The are
> both the water source, the pipes and the faucet.  Presumably the
> teacher has experience in turning on the faucet and accessing the
> water, and the student does not.  The teacher can only demonstrate how
> he/she accesses the water and make some suggestions.  The student must
> learn how to turn on the faucet for himself.
> 
> The point is that Dharma does not flow THROUGH the teacher to the
> student.  If that’s the relationship Genpo believes is necessary and
> that he demands, then he has strayed very far from the teachings of
> Maezumi Roshi.
> 
> I will direct you to a link which will fully support my position on
> this.  To access the link you only need to sit quietly and count your
> breathes.
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Kristy McClain
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:06 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi &
> Andrew Cohen
> 
> 
> Ed,
> 
> So do you have a comment about this?
> 
> To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Genpo say  this to  a
> student, I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to
> confront the student with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".  Gempo
> was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and entire
> behavior indicated that he, himself,  had simply lost control.  As for
> Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand this guy.  He can talk
> non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling on and on with
> what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as
> brilliant,  I cannot understand most of what he says.
> 
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack
> Kornfield, TNH, Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But
> perhaps it is also telling to note that this is a teaching style I
> avoided as not right for  me.
> 
> Kristy
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 11/17/10, ED  wrote:
> 
> From: ED 
> Subject: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew
> Cohen
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 1:21 PM
> 
> 
> The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs  (8:44)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

There are no prescribed ‘techniques’ for communicating Buddha Nature, which is 
the attempt of all koans.  The communication has to be spontaneous and come 
directly from Buddha Nature.  Sometimes it is a sentence or two.  Sometimes it 
is just one or two words.  Sometimes it is just a sound.  Sometimes it’s a 
gesture or even just silence.  There is no ‘right’ way, although not just any 
response is acceptable.

In the last two koans below the same zen master, Nansen, responded to the same 
question: ‘What is the Way?’ in two different and seemingly contradictory way.  
(‘What is the Way?’ is asking something like ‘How can I become enlightened?’,  
or ‘How can I experience Buddha Nature?’. ) In the first he says: ‘Ordinary 
mind is the Way’.  In the second he says, “Mind is not Buddha, knowing is not 
the Way”.

…Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

Thanks for the koans.

What is the communication technique in the last two koans?

I think I've read some sufi stories before, but can't remember anything similar 
to koans at the moment. I'll share the story when I remember.

siska

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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:29:31 +0700
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Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

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Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
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Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

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siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

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Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
dis

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

 

I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too.

 

Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings.  This includes 
the Bible.  No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly 
true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or 
attributed to one person.

 

For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or 
not (unless you’re a fundamentalist 
Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank).  The story is a teaching tool and 
its historical accuracy is not really the point.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  

Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska

  _  

From: Anthony Wu  

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)

To: 

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.

 

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM

  

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

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Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
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Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
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