Re: freeBSD logo

[Randy Belk]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Randall Wood wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 08:16:12AM -0800, Peter Giessel wrote:
>> >I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
>> >find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?
>>
>> Vector formats (which would allow you to produce any resolution you want)
>> are available here:
>> http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html
>
> Isn't there some sort of restriction on how the logo can be used?  I wrote a 
> post for my website about FreeBSD (PC-BSD, actually) and went looking for the 
> FreeBSD.  I recall there some restrictions on Daemon.  Or are those days over?
>
> One of my favorite looking mascots, by the way.  What a cutie.
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The BSD Daemon is Copyrighted by Marshall Kirk McKusick, see
http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html.
I contacted Mr. McKusick, and his response is below



-- 
- Amiga, The Computer for the creative Mind!
- UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a
genius to understand the simplicity.
- People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use BSD.
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Re: freeBSD logo

[Randy Belk]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Randy Belk wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Randall Wood wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 08:16:12AM -0800, Peter Giessel wrote:
>>> >I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
>>> >find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?
>>>
>>> Vector formats (which would allow you to produce any resolution you want)
>>> are available here:
>>> http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html
>>
>> Isn't there some sort of restriction on how the logo can be used?  I wrote a 
>> post for my website about FreeBSD (PC-BSD, actually) and went looking for 
>> the FreeBSD.  I recall there some restrictions on Daemon.  Or are those days 
>> over?
>>
>> One of my favorite looking mascots, by the way.  What a cutie.
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>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
>>
>
> The BSD Daemon is Copyrighted by Marshall Kirk McKusick, see
> http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html.
> I contacted Mr. McKusick, and his response is below
>
>
>
> --
> - Amiga, The Computer for the creative Mind!
> - UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a
> genius to understand the simplicity.
> - People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use 
> BSD.
>

Sorry guys, I thought I attached the file but I guess I didn't. Anyway
here is my correspondence with him.
This was concerning my FreeBSD Wallpaper site,
http://picasaweb.google.com/randy.belk/FreeBSDWallpaper.
Sorry for the plug, ;-)

Mr. McKusick's response:

> Mr. McKusick,
>
> I have the site back up and I have also added that your
> are the copyright holder of the BSD Daemon on the top
> right of the page.
>
> I am providing these to the FreeBSD community for free!

Your usage of the BSD Daemon in this context is acceptable.
Please note however that many of the variations that are
used on the wallpaper designs are not owned by me. They have
been created by other people and I do not have the right to
grant your use of those variations on the BSD Daemon. When
you grab a wallpaper to add to your collection you should
ensure that the person that you got it from allows it to be
redistributed.

Marshall Kirk McKusick

-- 
- Amiga, The Computer for the creative Mind!
- UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a
genius to understand the simplicity.
- People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use BSD.
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Re: freeBSD logo

[Randall Wood]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 08:16:12AM -0800, Peter Giessel wrote:
> >I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
> >find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?
> 
> Vector formats (which would allow you to produce any resolution you want)
> are available here:
> http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html

Isn't there some sort of restriction on how the logo can be used?  I wrote a 
post for my website about FreeBSD (PC-BSD, actually) and went looking for the 
FreeBSD.  I recall there some restrictions on Daemon.  Or are those days over?

One of my favorite looking mascots, by the way.  What a cutie.
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Re: freeBSD logo

[Gary Gatten]

Dude, you used the word "cutie"  That's just messed up...

- Original Message -
From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org 
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org 
Sent: Thu Jun 25 16:01:25 2009
Subject: Re: freeBSD logo

On Thursday 25 June 2009 05:16:12 pm Peter Giessel wrote:
> >I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
> >find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?
>
> Vector formats (which would allow you to produce any resolution you want)
> are available here:
> http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html

Isn't there some sort of restriction on how the logo can be used?  I wrote a
+post for my website about FreeBSD (PC-BSD, actually) and went looking for the
+FreeBSD.  I recall there some restrictions on Daemon.  Or are those days 
over?

One of my favorite looking mascots, by the way.  What a cutie.

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Re: freeBSD logo

[Randall Wood]

On Thursday 25 June 2009 05:16:12 pm Peter Giessel wrote:
> >I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
> >find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?
>
> Vector formats (which would allow you to produce any resolution you want)
> are available here:
> http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html

Isn't there some sort of restriction on how the logo can be used?  I wrote a
+post for my website about FreeBSD (PC-BSD, actually) and went looking for the
+FreeBSD.  I recall there some restrictions on Daemon.  Or are those days 
over?

One of my favorite looking mascots, by the way.  What a cutie.

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Re: freeBSD logo

[Peter Giessel]

>I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
>find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?

Vector formats (which would allow you to produce any resolution you want)
are available here:
http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html
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Re: freeBSD logo

[Jerry McAllister]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 05:45:33PM +0300, Dimitar Keranov wrote:

> Hello,
> I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
> find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?

Last I knew you could get such T-shirts at the FreeBSD mall or one
of the other sites listed on the FreeBSD web site.

jerry


> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> D. Keranov
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freeBSD logo

[Dimitar Keranov]

Hello,
I want to make a t-shirt with the caption "The Power to Serve" but I can't
find it in a good resolution. Can you send it to me?

Thanks!


D. Keranov
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Re: Inquiry about using FreeBSD logo

[David Schulz]

http://www.freebsd.org/art.html#USE

On Nov 14, 2006, at 7:02 PM, Sher Shah Farooq wrote:


Dear FreeBSD

My name is Sher Shah Farooq, working in Ministry of IT and Telecom  
as Open Source Security Expert. I am a great fan of FreeBSD  
Operating System and using FreeBSD from the last 6 years. I have  
introduced FreeBSD in Government as well as in hundreds of Private  
organizations. I want to create a user group for FreeBSD User in my  
country and also want your permission that can I use FreeBSD  
logos?. Please let me know as soon as possible.


Sincerely Yours,

Sher Shah Farooq

Security Expert (OSRC)
Pakistan Software Export Board (G) Ltd.
Ministry of IT&T
2nd Floor, Evacuee Trust Building,
Agha Khan Road, Islamabad, Pakistan.
Tel: 92-51-9204074 Ext: 124
Fax: 92-51-9204075
Cell:92-321-9138528
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
URL: www.pseb.org.pk ; www.osrc.org.pk
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!DSPAM:1084,4559a2db6575674931299!





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Inquiry about using FreeBSD logo

[Sher Shah Farooq]

Dear FreeBSD

My name is Sher Shah Farooq, working in Ministry of IT and Telecom as Open 
Source Security Expert. I am a great fan of FreeBSD Operating System and using 
FreeBSD from the last 6 years. I have introduced FreeBSD in Government as well 
as in hundreds of Private organizations. I want to create a user group for 
FreeBSD User in my country and also want your permission that can I use FreeBSD 
logos?. Please let me know as soon as possible. 

Sincerely Yours, 

Sher Shah Farooq

Security Expert (OSRC)
Pakistan Software Export Board (G) Ltd.
Ministry of IT&T
2nd Floor, Evacuee Trust Building,
Agha Khan Road, Islamabad, Pakistan.
Tel: 92-51-9204074 Ext: 124
Fax: 92-51-9204075
Cell:92-321-9138528
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
URL: www.pseb.org.pk ; www.osrc.org.pk
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Re: FreeBSD logo

[Harald Muehlboeck]

Jona Joachim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> You can find it here:
> http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html

On this page there is a link to
. This link is
broken (Error 404).

Is the licence of the logo compatible with one of the free licences on
Wikimedia Commons?  

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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:22 PM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: Henry Lenzi; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>
>
>On May 16, 2006, at 11:15 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad
>>> Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
>>> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:08 AM
>>> To: Henry Lenzi
>>> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ted Mittelstaedt
>>> Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 15, 2006, at 11:57 AM, Henry Lenzi wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
>>>>> this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
>>>>> a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
>>>>> distracted from the presentation of the operating system's
>>>>> features.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ted
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're kidding, right? Say you're kidding.
>>>
>>> Ted says lots of things.
>>>
>>
>> In this case though, I am not "just saying a lot of things"
>>
>> See the following:
>>
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/
>> 001592.
>> html
>>
>> "...Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with
>> misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The
>> FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new
>> logo ..."
>
>That was written by "Ricardo Alves dos Reis" who as far as I can tell
>[1] does not hold any official capacity at the FreeBSD Foundation or
>in the groups of people (committers etc) who had/have a say.  In
>other words, it was one outsider's personal opinion.  It in now way
>says anything about the real reasons for the whole thing.
>

Chad, since your going to be bullheaded (espically considering you
participated in all of these threads) here's some more, from
folks that I think satisfy your requirements for official capacity.
These
are from the threads that are still present in the archives, there is
one thread titled "please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such
as NetBSD" that had a lot of more goodies in it, but I've been unable to
find it.  (maybe it got stripped out from the archives, who knows?):

http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=2773426+0+archive/2005/freeb
sd-questions/20050213.freebsd-questions

"...The leaked document in its
initial form mentioned *replacing* the FreeBSD daemon.  No mention of
cleaning it up was made.  It even included a bunch of guidelines for
contest entries, including:
* The logo must not exploit or offend a person's sex, race,
  religion,..."


http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=128386+0+archive/2005/freebs
d-advocacy/20050213.freebsd-advocacy

"...Yeah, the announcement was prematurely leaked, and was clearly not
ready
for the world to see yet..you'll notice that
most of the BSD-related organizations have at some point opted for a
non-daemon logo..."

http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=3155618+0+archive/2005/freeb
sd-questions/20050213.freebsd-questions

"... I have done maybe a dozen presentations
for FreeBSD to public groups in that time... I,
for one, am damn tired of explaining some stupid Unix inside-joke
to people, at the same time that I'm trying to convince those same
people that FreeBSD is a professional, grown-up operating system..."

http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=59378+0+archive/2005/freebsd
-advocacy/20050213.freebsd-advocacy

"...For entertainment value, I should scan in the anonymous letter I
received
from someone in Kansas a few years ago.  It compared the Beastie to using
Osama Bin Laden as the FreeBSD logo, and was CC'd to my company and
research sponsors..."

Anyway,

The information is out there if you care to dig for it, and I didn't even
cheat
by looking on the committers archives mailing list.  The fact is that the
religious significance of Beastie and reaction to that coloring
perception of
FreeBSD, was a main driving point for a lot of people to
replacing Beastie as the logo, and the core group knew that if they
mentioned this it would cause a huge backlash, a lot worse than what
it did cause as it is, so pains were taken to strip out "official"
mention
that religion was playing a part.

For anyone who really cares, a -complete- read of the major threads in
questions and advoca

RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Philip J. Koenig]

Sorry to be jumping into this late.


On 15 May 2006 at 8:57, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No, you get to vote on the selection of various bits of code changes. 


That sounds more realistic to me than assuming committers are also 
the sole FreeBSD "esthetic committee" too.


> But
> no amount of your voting is going to instantly change the recognized logo
> of FreeBSD from Beastie to the sex-toy.  Ranting on questions has far more
> ability to make or break use of the sex-toy logo by the FreeBSD userbase
> than voting on current.


I must admit that logo seemed a bit strange to me when I saw it on 
the website.  Sorta cold and a bit too abstract for my taste.  

It reminds me of what Mozilla did with their dragon - removed it from 
the browser's splash-screen because some minority of people thought 
it was "demonic" or "evil" or something. So sad.  

I think people need to get over themselves and personally I think the 
"beastie" is nicely irreverent and has a palpable "personality" one 
can relate to, especially since you can be sure that very few 
"gargantuan publicly-held companies" would ever get away with using 
something similiar. 

I wonder if anyone has heard Kirk McKusick's input on this.. then 
again, perhaps he's a bit biased?  :-)



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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC]

On May 16, 2006, at 11:15 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad
Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:08 AM
To: Henry Lenzi
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ted Mittelstaedt
Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo



On May 15, 2006, at 11:57 AM, Henry Lenzi wrote:


It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
distracted from the presentation of the operating system's  
features.


Ted



You're kidding, right? Say you're kidding.


Ted says lots of things.



In this case though, I am not "just saying a lot of things"

See the following:

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/ 
001592.

html

"...Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with
misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The
FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new  
logo ..."


That was written by "Ricardo Alves dos Reis" who as far as I can tell 
[1] does not hold any official capacity at the FreeBSD Foundation or  
in the groups of people (committers etc) who had/have a say.  In  
other words, it was one outsider's personal opinion.  It in now way  
says anything about the real reasons for the whole thing.





Yes, Chad, we all know you love the new logo.  Just quit rewriting
history
to pretend that religion didn't have anything to do with the change.


Please read <http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt> which is  
the "Official" rules and explanation.  Nothing in there that I can find.


Stop rewriting history yourself.  Your post above is embarrassing as  
you try and claim official status for someone's (who appears to be an  
outsider) personal opinion.


Chad




Ted


---
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Your Web App and Email hosting provider
chad at shire.net



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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad
>Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
>Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:08 AM
>To: Henry Lenzi
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ted Mittelstaedt
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>
>
>On May 15, 2006, at 11:57 AM, Henry Lenzi wrote:
>
>>> It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
>>> this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
>>> a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
>>> distracted from the presentation of the operating system's features.
>>>
>>> Ted
>>>
>>
>> You're kidding, right? Say you're kidding.
>
>Ted says lots of things.
>

In this case though, I am not "just saying a lot of things"

See the following:

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/001592.
html

"...Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with
misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The
FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo ..."

Yes, Chad, we all know you love the new logo.  Just quit rewriting
history
to pretend that religion didn't have anything to do with the change.

Ted

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Re: FreeBSD logo

[Jona Joachim]

Adrian Pavone wrote:
> Albert Shih wrote:
> 
>> Hi all
>>
>> No no it's not a new troll for the new/old freebsd's logo ;-)
>>
>> No my question : Where can I find the FreeBSD logo (new or old) to put on
>> my xdm screen.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Albert SHIH
>> Universite de Paris 7 (Denis DIDEROT)
>> U.F.R. de Mathematiques.
>> 7 ième étage, plateau D, bureau 10
>> Heure local/Local time:
>> Mon May 15 22:44:30 CEST 2006
>> ___
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>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
>>
>>
>>  
>>
> If you want Beastie, you can find him at either http://www.freebsd.org/
> or you can always do a search for beastie in http://images.google.com
> 
> In relation to the sex toy, I am not sure of any that don't have a
> background colour/image attached...

You can find it here:
http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html
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Re: FreeBSD logo

[Adrian Pavone]

Albert Shih wrote:


Hi all

No no it's not a new troll for the new/old freebsd's logo ;-)

No my question : Where can I find the FreeBSD logo (new or old) to put on
my xdm screen.

Regards.


--
Albert SHIH
Universite de Paris 7 (Denis DIDEROT)
U.F.R. de Mathematiques.
7 ième étage, plateau D, bureau 10
Heure local/Local time:
Mon May 15 22:44:30 CEST 2006
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If you want Beastie, you can find him at either http://www.freebsd.org/ 
or you can always do a search for beastie in http://images.google.com


In relation to the sex toy, I am not sure of any that don't have a 
background colour/image attached...

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FreeBSD logo

[Albert Shih]

Hi all

No no it's not a new troll for the new/old freebsd's logo ;-)

No my question : Where can I find the FreeBSD logo (new or old) to put on
my xdm screen.

Regards.


--
Albert SHIH
Universite de Paris 7 (Denis DIDEROT)
U.F.R. de Mathematiques.
7 ième étage, plateau D, bureau 10
Heure local/Local time:
Mon May 15 22:44:30 CEST 2006
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Henry Lenzi]

BTW, I entirely apologize for singling out a religious group. Perhaps
I've should've phrased it as "I hope this didn't have to do with any
concern or discomfort related to religious groups". Maybe I'm reading
much too many polls...

Anyways, I still find it hard to believe it...Although I mentioned
this because I sem to remember having read something a long time ago
about a FreeBSD developer that ran into some trouble because of the
"Devil t-shirt." So, you know, I apologize but try to see where I was
coming from, if I offended anyone.
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Adrian Pavone]

Henry Lenzi wrote:


It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
distracted from the presentation of the operating system's features.

Ted



You're kidding, right? Say you're kidding.
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If only he was.

I say don't be ashamed of Beastie, and if anyone asks, tell them "Hey, 
it's our logo. Deal with that how you want to." If anyone still keeps 
asking, tell them they are ignorant and kick them out. Should shut up 
the rest.


Altough I have been known for being rather blunt with my techniques ... 
Blunt but effective though ;)

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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC]

On May 15, 2006, at 11:57 AM, Henry Lenzi wrote:


It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
distracted from the presentation of the operating system's features.

Ted



You're kidding, right? Say you're kidding.


Ted says lots of things.

---
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Your Web App and Email hosting provider
chad at shire.net



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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Henry Lenzi]

It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
distracted from the presentation of the operating system's features.

Ted



You're kidding, right? Say you're kidding.
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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Birrell
>Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:29 PM
>To: Gary Hayers
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>
>Those people who want to influence decisions like the selection of a new
>logo really only have _one_ way to have a say. Ranting on a mailing list
>is *not* that way.
>

Wrong.  I think you have this idea that the committers think that all
they
have to do is wave their wands and every FreeBSD user will instantly
march in lockstep to what they want.

This is only true for the FreeBSD source code.  If the committers in
FreeBSD
change the source to FreeBSD then the users all pretty much have little
choice but to accept it.  Oh sure they can patch the system if they want,
but the changes are usually good so why would they?  And when the changes
are bad and break things, then if a proper PR is filed that documents
everything, then the committers change it back, or fix the bug.

But not so with the logo change.  Logos only have value when they are
used.  Yes the committers can delete Beastie from FreeBSD's main
website and replace it with the sex toy - although in view of the
multiple
and varied statements by many committers that the sex toy logo is
merely an addition and not displacing Beastie I don't see how they will
be able to do this in the future without losing a lot of public face for
going back on their promises.

But the committers have zero control over what the users use for their
preferred logo.  Most people are going to use the logo they feel best
represents
FreeBSD, only a few misguided people will just blindly use the logo that
the committers tell them to use.  Since most of the userbase preferrs
Beastie they will continue to use Beastie.  The people making castings of
Beastie aren't going to see sales of a casting of the sex toy displace
Beaste,
if they even offer it, the people making stuffed Beasties aren't going to
see
sales of a stuffed sex toy outselling Beastie, etc. etc. etc.

The -only- way the committers can get a lot of people to use the new logo
is to put out a new logo that is better than Beastie.

>If you contribute to FreeBSD and earn the right to a commit
>bit, then you
>get a chance to vote on who becomes a member of the core group
>and things
>like the selection of a new logo.
>

No, you get to vote on the selection of various bits of code changes.
But no amount of your voting is going to instantly change the recognized
logo of FreeBSD from Beastie to the sex-toy.  Ranting on questions has
far more ability to make or break use of the sex-toy logo by the FreeBSD
userbase than voting on current.

>
>So people can "huff and puff and try to blow the house down" in this
>thread, but the only thing that makes any difference is what the people
>who have earned a vote think.
>

No, the only thing that makes a difference when it comes to the logo is
what the people choose to use who are normally using the FreeBSD
logo in their work every day.  And those folks are what you would term
the sales and marketing arm of FreeBSD, not the developers.  And
they are paying attention to what people are saying about the new
sex-toy logo.  The sex-toy logo has very little recognition and
association
with FreeBSD.  The few places that you might -want- to use it is
someplace
like the cover of a magazine, because if you use a recognized logo like
Beastie then prospective purchasers of that magazine are going to think
"ho hum another article about FreeBSD" and pass it by, whereas since they
don't know what the sex-toy represents, they might pick up the mag and
read it.  But, in that case your selling a magazine, not an operating
system.

In instances like the cover of a CD or a business card or a website
where your wanting to use a very instantly recognizable logo denoting
FreeBSD, your going to use Beastie.  And this reason is what is
the reason for most of the areas that have a need for a FreeBSD logo.

Ted

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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gary Hayers
>Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:14 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>
>Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>> No, the majority of people who have posted do not like it,
>>> thats not the
>>> whole community. Maybe you should do your research better.
>>>
>>
>> It's probably a revelation to you but you do not have to poll
>> the entire community to find out if the majority of them don't
>> like something.  This is called "sampling"  The people who
>> have posted are a sample of the community.  The vast majority
>> of this sample don't like it.  Thus the majority of the community
>> doesen't like it.  (those who hold opinions one way or another,
>> that is, and the opinion holders are the only ones that matter
>> in this particular issue)
>>
>> Ted
>
>I am well aware of what sampling means, your argument if
>flawed, you may
>have the sample of the community that does not like it, the people who
>do like it may not find it important enough to post about.

So then as others have said, let's open it to a vote of the
community as to whether or not it needed to be changed in the
first place.  That wasn't done because the people pushing this knew
they would lose.

>Quite frankly
>it is of no importance as the community were not the ones with a say
>about it, the FreeBSD management were and they did.
>

That is nothing more than the might-makes-right argument and it is
as flawed here as it ever was.  FreeBSD isn't a commercial product
in case you missed it, it's the sum total of everyone who contributes
to it and supports it.

The only part of FreeBSD that is under any kind of management is the
source repository itself and website, and the source code is much like
the tip of the iceberg, it is only the obvious embodiment of this
contribution.  Without the many users of that source, FreeBSD is nothing.
And you wouldn't have those users without the gargantum amount of
advocacy and support that goes on with that source.  If the "FreeBSD
management" was soley responsible for all tech support then FreeBSD
would not work.  If that management was solely responsible for
all promotion and all expenditures on promoting FreeBSD they would
go bankrupt in seconds.  Who are you to denegrate the emormous
amount of invisible work that occurs to keep FreeBSD viable, with
your ignorant comment "the community were not the ones with a say
about it"

Ted

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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Gary Hayers]

John Birrell wrote:
Quite frankly 
it is of no importance as the community were not the ones with a say 
about it, the FreeBSD management were and they did.


The new logo was selected using a democratic vote of people who have 
commit privileges to the various parts of FreeBSD. This was conducted many,

many months ago. There were legal issues that needed to be resolved by
the FreeBSD Foundation before the logo could be used. That work is now
complete and so you get to see the new logo.

Those people who want to influence decisions like the selection of a new
logo really only have _one_ way to have a say. Ranting on a mailing list
is *not* that way.

If you contribute to FreeBSD and earn the right to a commit bit, then you
get a chance to vote on who becomes a member of the core group and things
like the selection of a new logo.

When you refer to the "FreeBSD management" you are really referring to the
people who have been elected as members of the core group. They work to
guide the project, but when it comes to things like a new logo, that
decision is made by the people who have the right to change parts of 
FreeBSD.


So people can "huff and puff and try to blow the house down" in this 
thread, but the only thing that makes any difference is what the people

who have earned a vote think.


Perfect, couldn't agree more.

Gary

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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[John Birrell]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 06:14:23AM +0100, Gary Hayers wrote:
> Quite frankly 
> it is of no importance as the community were not the ones with a say 
> about it, the FreeBSD management were and they did.

The new logo was selected using a democratic vote of people who have 
commit privileges to the various parts of FreeBSD. This was conducted many,
many months ago. There were legal issues that needed to be resolved by
the FreeBSD Foundation before the logo could be used. That work is now
complete and so you get to see the new logo.

Those people who want to influence decisions like the selection of a new
logo really only have _one_ way to have a say. Ranting on a mailing list
is *not* that way.

If you contribute to FreeBSD and earn the right to a commit bit, then you
get a chance to vote on who becomes a member of the core group and things
like the selection of a new logo.

When you refer to the "FreeBSD management" you are really referring to the
people who have been elected as members of the core group. They work to
guide the project, but when it comes to things like a new logo, that
decision is made by the people who have the right to change parts of 
FreeBSD.

So people can "huff and puff and try to blow the house down" in this 
thread, but the only thing that makes any difference is what the people
who have earned a vote think.

--
John Birrell
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Gary Hayers]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
No, the majority of people who have posted do not like it, 
thats not the 
whole community. Maybe you should do your research better.




It's probably a revelation to you but you do not have to poll
the entire community to find out if the majority of them don't
like something.  This is called "sampling"  The people who
have posted are a sample of the community.  The vast majority
of this sample don't like it.  Thus the majority of the community
doesen't like it.  (those who hold opinions one way or another,
that is, and the opinion holders are the only ones that matter
in this particular issue)

Ted


I am well aware of what sampling means, your argument if flawed, you may 
have the sample of the community that does not like it, the people who 
do like it may not find it important enough to post about. Quite frankly 
it is of no importance as the community were not the ones with a say 
about it, the FreeBSD management were and they did.


Gary

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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gary Hayers
>Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 8:14 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>
>Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> The community has already spoken, go back and look at all the
>> posts on this and the other lists on the logo, the majority of
>> them don't like it.
>> 
>> Ted
>
>No, the majority of people who have posted do not like it, 
>thats not the 
>whole community. Maybe you should do your research better.
>

It's probably a revelation to you but you do not have to poll
the entire community to find out if the majority of them don't
like something.  This is called "sampling"  The people who
have posted are a sample of the community.  The vast majority
of this sample don't like it.  Thus the majority of the community
doesen't like it.  (those who hold opinions one way or another,
that is, and the opinion holders are the only ones that matter
in this particular issue)

Ted
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Norberto Meijome]

(yes...adding to the fire... oh well)

On Sat, 13 May 2006 21:38:56 -0700
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> this is really a great example of why this logo does nothing to help
> the FreeBSD project.

probably true.

>  What about the logo makes you think of an
> operating system?

well...what in a penguin makes you think of an Open Source derivative of Unix
which was started in Finland? Of all the reasons i've heard for not liking the
logo this is probably the thinnest one. 

I don't particularly like the logo - not because it, apparently, looks like a
sex-toy (come-ON! anything can be thought to look like 'something else' by
*someone* , so i wont even go there) , but because I think I think a much
better logo can be made, which reflects in some way BSD's history, or maybe not
- i don't care, Chuck is still the mascot and it's what I'll keep using until a
good logo comes about.And one that can be easily incorporated into b/w, lesser
colours prints, smaller sizes,etc.

And yes, Ted, i agree with you that this whole logo-finding-excercise seems a
waste of time due to most of the reasons you have explained (so many times).

>  And what about this cover is at all compelling to
> induce someone to pick up the magazine and buy it?

i dont see how this has anything to do with the log anyway... no need to 
flame left right and center...
( YES, having had the devil in the cover would have conveyed the idea of BSD to
more people for sure ... but in which other way than putting the logo out there
can it be made recognisable?)

Regards,
Beto
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Viktor Cemasko]

On Sun, 14 May 2006 17:34:33 +0200 Matthias Apitz wrote:

> I don't like the new logo either, but this is a personal opinion
> only.

Agreed.

> I ask hereby the people who are in charge for such decisions to
> make a web page for a poll of the community. Thx.

me too.
-- 
Best regards,
Cemasko Viktor.
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Matthias Apitz]

El día Sunday, May 14, 2006 a las 04:14:17PM +0100, Gary Hayers escribió:

> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >The community has already spoken, go back and look at all the
> >posts on this and the other lists on the logo, the majority of
> >them don't like it.
> >
> >Ted
> 
> No, the majority of people who have posted do not like it, thats not the 
> whole community. Maybe you should do your research better.

I don't like the new logo either, but this is a personal opinion
only. I ask hereby the people who are in charge for such decisions to
make a web page for a poll of the community. Thx.

matthias

-- 
Matthias Apitz
Manager Technical Support - OCLC PICA GmbH
Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
e <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - w http://www.oclcpica.org/ http://guru.UnixLand.de/
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Gary Hayers]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

The community has already spoken, go back and look at all the
posts on this and the other lists on the logo, the majority of
them don't like it.

Ted


No, the majority of people who have posted do not like it, thats not the 
whole community. Maybe you should do your research better.


Gary

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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Fabian Keil]

"Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Fabian Keil

> >"Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> >-Original Message-
> >> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> >Axel S. Gruner

> >> >Am Mittwoch, den 10.05.2006, 02:05 -0700 schrieb Ted Mittelstaedt:
> >> >> My guess is it will be a long, long time before you see CDROMs
> >> >> from anybody that have deleted Beastie and have the sex toy.
> >> >
> >> >At LinuxTag 2006 in Wiesbaden we had prepared a lot of CDs
> >with the new
> >> >Logo (what you call a "sex toy"?). We also used the new logo
> >as a flag
> >> >on our booth.
> >> >You will find a few pictures here:
> >> >http://www.encephalon.de/photo/bsd_bilder/lt2006/index.html
> >> >
> >> >So, the "long long time" was a really short time ;-).
> >> >
> >>
> >> I think you missed the part of the post where I said:
> >>
> >> "people have to pay for, to see if those last as a product,"
> >>
> >> The context of the post made it pretty clear I was talking about
> >> commercial CD's that are sold, not given away.
> >
> >Issue 3/2006 of the German magazine freeX has the new logo on
> >its cover, on the included disc and it appears several times
> >in the articles.
> >
> >http://www.cul.de/images/freex32006cg.jpg
> >
> 
> Actually this isn't the logo, the nipples on it aren't recessed, but in
> any case
> this is really a great example of why this logo does nothing to help
> the FreeBSD project.  What about the logo makes you think of an
> operating system?  And what about this cover is at all compelling to
> induce someone to pick up the magazine and buy it?

I wasn't arguing for or against the new logo.
I just pointed out that it already is in commercial use.

Fabian
-- 
http://www.fabiankeil.de/


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Andrew Wingorodov]

>But to ignoramusus the new logo doesen't look like a devil image,
>it looks like a sex toy. 

It similarly to not to horns of a daemon, but female breasts.
Bad idea.

-- 
Andrew Wingborn
http://andr.ru/
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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Varuna
>Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 11:13 PM
>To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Cc: Henry Lenzi; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ted Mittelstaedt
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>

>
>That's ironic to me because what I perceive with the 3d glass 
>look is that the 
>devil image has been given a seriousness whereas Beastie said cute and 
>mischievous.  
>

But to ignoramusus the new logo doesen't look like a devil image,
it looks like a sex toy.  Thus they don't view it as a serious
devil, just a serious sex toy, and apparently these days sex toys
are OK but if you make fun of The Prince of Darkness by making a
cute little logo of him, your going to Hell.

Ted
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Marc G. Fournier]

On Sat, 13 May 2006, Varuna wrote:


On Saturday 13 May 2006 21:57, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Henry Lenzi
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo




I really hope the rationale wasn't something
like evangelical christians having problem with "the little red
devil."


It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
distracted from the presentation of the operating system's features.

Ted
___



That's ironic to me because what I perceive with the 3d glass look is that the
devil image has been given a seriousness whereas Beastie said cute and
mischievous.


I have to admit, when I first saw the new logo, it kinda lost me as to why 
we were changing from something 'cute' to something 'sterile' :(  To me, 
Beastie will always == FreeBSD, and even though there is a new "Official 
Logo", I'll stick with proudly displaying Beastie on my web site *shrug*


Beastie will only ever die if ppl stop displaying him ...


Marc G. Fournier   Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Yahoo!: yscrappy  ICQ: 7615664
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Varuna]

On Saturday 13 May 2006 21:57, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> 
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Henry Lenzi
> >Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:04 AM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
> >
> 
> > I really hope the rationale wasn't something
> >like evangelical christians having problem with "the little red
> >devil."
> 
> It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
> this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
> a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
> distracted from the presentation of the operating system's features.
> 
> Ted
> ___


That's ironic to me because what I perceive with the 3d glass look is that the 
devil image has been given a seriousness whereas Beastie said cute and 
mischievous.  

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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Henry Lenzi
>Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:04 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>

> I really hope the rationale wasn't something
>like evangelical christians having problem with "the little red
>devil."

It was, I am sorry to say.  The core developer that pushed for all
this said he was tired of when presenting FreeBSD to have to field
a bunch of questions by people hung up over the devil image, it
distracted from the presentation of the operating system's features.

Ted
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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

-Original Message-
From: David Stanford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:11 AM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo

On 5/13/06, Ted Mittelstaedt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>>Your missing something - "they" didn't ask all us users if we wanted
>>a new logo or not. 

>I wasn't aware they had to (?).

I wasn't aware we had to praise and thank them for something
we didn't want.

>my statement meant that I hoped the Project isn't swayed out of
>using the logo because of childish posts such as these.

They put the new logo in over lots of objections so I doubt
that childish posts will make any difference.

> I would love to hear how this,
> among your *many* other posts, has contributed to this list. 

Sure, as soon as you say how your post chastising the people that
think the new logo looks like a sex toy has made a contribution to
the list.

>>The community doesen't want the new logo and the majority of the
>>community
>>prefers Beastie over the sex-toy.

>You speak for the community? 

The community has already spoken, go back and look at all the
posts on this and the other lists on the logo, the majority of
them don't like it.

You probably should have done this research before posting.

>Agreed, and this will be my last post on the subject

Good, we don't need more posting on this topic from
people who haven't bothered to read the overwhelming posts
against the new logo.

Ted
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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Fabian Keil
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 3:06 AM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
>
>
>"Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> >-Original Message-
>> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
>Axel S. Gruner
>> >Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:46 AM
>> >To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>> >Subject: RE: New FreeBSD Logo
>> >
>> >
>> >Am Mittwoch, den 10.05.2006, 02:05 -0700 schrieb Ted Mittelstaedt:
>> >> My guess is it will be a long, long time before you see CDROMs
>> >> from anybody that have deleted Beastie and have the sex toy.
>> >
>> >At LinuxTag 2006 in Wiesbaden we had prepared a lot of CDs
>with the new
>> >Logo (what you call a "sex toy"?). We also used the new logo
>as a flag
>> >on our booth.
>> >You will find a few pictures here:
>> >http://www.encephalon.de/photo/bsd_bilder/lt2006/index.html
>> >
>> >So, the "long long time" was a really short time ;-).
>> >
>>
>> I think you missed the part of the post where I said:
>>
>> "people have to pay for, to see if those last as a product,"
>>
>> The context of the post made it pretty clear I was talking about
>> commercial CD's that are sold, not given away.
>
>Issue 3/2006 of the German magazine freeX has the new logo on
>its cover, on the included disc and it appears several times
>in the articles.
>
>http://www.cul.de/images/freex32006cg.jpg
>

Actually this isn't the logo, the nipples on it aren't recessed, but in
any case
this is really a great example of why this logo does nothing to help
the FreeBSD project.  What about the logo makes you think of an
operating system?  And what about this cover is at all compelling to
induce someone to pick up the magazine and buy it?

Ted

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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Riemer Palstra]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 09:59:59AM -0400, fbsd wrote:
> The point being it was not  announced  on the questions list.

Oh, where would an announcement go... like, the announcement
mailinglist?

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:26:38 +0900
From: Jun Kuriyama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [FreeBSD-Announce] FreeBSD logo design competition

[ ... ]

Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:47:00 +0900
From: Jun Kuriyama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: freebsd-announce@FreeBSD.org
Subject: [FreeBSD-Announce] New Logo

> Quite trying to make a non-subject out of something that effects us
> all.

Yes, it affects us al. And yes, we all had our chance of giving input
while this was still open for discussion.

-- 
Riemer PalstraAmsterdam, The Netherlands
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.palstra.com/
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Erik Trulsson]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 09:59:59AM -0400, fbsd wrote:
> The point being it was not  announced  on the questions list.

Why should it be?  This is not the place for announcments and never
has been.  This list is for asking questions about FreeBSD and answering
those questions.

Announcments can be expected to appear on the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
list, which is exactly where the logo contest was announced.

There are several other lists hosted at freebsd.org.  If you think
all important discussions happen on questions@ then you are not only
badly mistaken, but will also miss most discussions.


> The point being the logo affects all the users just not the core
> committers.

Only if they choose to let it do so.

> 
> Quite trying to make a non-subject out of something that effects us
> all.
> The official logo represents all of us users to the world as a
> whole.

No, the logo is supposed to represent FreeBSD, not the users thereof.

> 
> Cant you get that through your collectives heads.

Can't you learn to spell correctly or to use correct punctuation?

> 
> How dare you be little this subject.

Very easily. It is not a subject of much importance.

> 
> Maybe you are to close to the internal FreeBSD business to be able
> to see
> the turn meaning of what changing the logo means to the users.

I suspect that the correct answer of what the logo means to most users is
'Very little'.  The is how much the new logo (or the old image of Beastie
for that matter) affects me anyway.

> 
> Maybe now is the time to ask the list if that want to vote on
> keeping the new logo? Or on if a new logo is wanted at all?

What makes you think that this list (or any other public list for
that matter) has a vote on the question?  FreeBSD is not a democracy.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jerry
> McAllister
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:25 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Beech Rintoul;
> Chad
> Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
> Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
> 
> 
> >
> > As a long time reader of this list I did not see any
> > announcement of it here. Only after selection of the
> > new logo was made was it talked about on this list.
> > People were very up set with it them and the ground
> > swell over this has only gotten bigger.
> 
> It was clearly announced with dates and how to make submissions
> and all and then the closure of the submissions was announced.
> There was a lot of griping on the list about why bother and
> such, but not much real objection until the robo-beastie - or
> would it be space-beastie - was chosen.
> 
> Though I am not fond of the new thing, it is not because the process
> of acquiring it was not announced.   I do think there was a failure
> to get better input on the candidates after submissions were made.
> The process, or lack thereof, of selecting was rather lame.
> 
> > Loyal long time users are feeling insulted about being
> > left out from the decision about the need for a new logo.
> 
> They were not left out, except by their own choice of not making
> any submission.
> 
> > A post in the archive give some lame reasons for a new logo
> > which many people disagreed with even then but still the
> > new legal FreeBSD foundation went ahead any how putting it
> > on the official website removing the "beastie" logo.
> >
> > I for one do not see any need to change the logo at all.
> > It's just as professional as the "penguin".
> >
> > I would say special effort was made to keep this whole
> > new logo thing a secret from the general user population.
> 
> Nope, it was well publicized.
> 
> > That also goes for the formation of the new legal FreeBSD
> > foundation.
> > Not a word of it happening on this list until it was a done deal.
> > You can see from this thread just how big a stink this is making.
> 
> Many words were posted.
> 
> > Lets point the finger at the real reason for the new logo.
> > As part of the new legal FreeBSD foundation, the people who
> > set it up though it's better to own the complete legal rights
> > to the logo. The "beastie" logo legal rights is owned by
> > an individual. So being pressed for time they choose to keep it
> > off the questions list and pushed it through selecting what
> > ever logo they had just to meet the filing dead line for
> > the new legal FreeBSD foundation formation.
> 
> Maybe, who knows.
> 
> >
> > For those of you who think this subject is flame bait,
> > YOU ARE WHY THIS NEW LOGO IDEA WAS EVEN ABLE T

Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Henry Lenzi]

>you are attempting to destroy the new logo's image by imaturely
>calling it a "sex toy" and in turn are slowly taking away from those
>precious dollars put into aquiring it.


I'm sorry to say, but it was a bad choice.
The little devil has been with us for a long time. Apple has an apple,
Windows has a window, Linux has a penguin, we have an abstract red
thing no one can describe. When they do, they say things like "tits"
or "sex toy". It is too abstract. You want a logo people can easily
describe:

- Well, I use the FreeBSD oerating system.
- I've heard of it...Is it the one with the little red devil?
- Yeah, that's the one

Don't call people immature because they have a different opinion. I
doubt the new logo would last an hour in a advertising firm's
brainstorming session. I really hope the rationale wasn't something
like evangelical christians having problem with "the little red
devil."
And don't say people are being destructive when they simply are
questioning what some, like me, seem to think was a wrong "branding"
strategy, if you will (although some will not articulate it like
that). Were it not important, we would have white simple HTML pages on
www.freebsd.org. Granted, it's not terribly important, but like any
thing that's out there, people will comment. This being a free
project, people feel entitled to comment on the project's list.
Rightly so.

My 2 cents,

Henry Lenzi
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[Adrian Pavone]

The community doesen't want the new logo and the majority of the
community
prefers Beastie over the sex-toy.


Not that I want to upset anything, but I thought Beastie was the logo. 
Where might a see a copy of the "sex-toy"? Is it that ugly sphere with 
the 2 cones for ears?

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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[David Stanford]

On 5/13/06, Ted Mittelstaedt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Stanford
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:32 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>
>Why, oh why, would you post this?
>
>So help me to understand...The FreeBSD Project takes great effort in
>not only producing a truly _great_ operating system, trademarked as
>being fast, robust, stable and secure, provides it to the world for
>_free_, but also takes on the additional chore of attempting to
>promote its growth in the corporate market by  introducing a new
>logo...and then some, all for the community. And your repayment is to
>aid in these, now, endless rants of verbal bashing of the Project's
>logo, which had an obvious goal of gaining wider popularity among
>busnesses for the purposes of making it bigger and better for, yes,
>_you_ and every other one of its users.

Your missing something - "they" didn't ask all us users if we wanted
a new logo or not.



I wasn't aware they had to (?).


Maybe I'm going out on a limb
>here, and maybe I'm solo dangling out there on it, but I feel a need
>to say something in defense. They spent

they wasted



IYOO


much valued donation money for
>the logo and in legal fees, I'm sure, to obtain it, so I would assume
>(and hope) it's here to stay.

Unlikely.  Most corporate logos change every 10-20 years or so.  Some
also have a raft of logos.  For example Chrysler used to use the
medallion for it's logo.  Then they switched to the pentagram.  Now
they are back to the medallion and it's been redone.AT&T has also
changed logos, they used to use the bell then the Death Star, now
they are using a modifed Death Star.  Fads and fashions
in logos come and go.  The current FreBSD sex toy logo is very
much a current fashion, as abstract logos like that are all the
rage now.  But it's just going to get dated all the faster for that.



You have entirely too much time on your hands. But my statement meant that I
hoped the Project isn't swayed out of using the logo because of childish
posts such as these.


Furthermore, by continuing to post
>threads like this you (and others) are hardly contributing to the
>Project (or this list) and, in fact, are doing the exact opposite -
>you are attempting to destroy the new logo's image by imaturely
>calling it a "sex toy" and in turn are slowly taking away from those
>precious dollars put into aquiring it.

Why throw more good money after bad?



Not sure I know what this means. However, I would love to hear how this,
among your *many* other posts, has contributed to this list.


Maybe it's not the greatest
>logo, but, regardless, the logo doesn't affect the code. Try to keep
>that in mind. FreeBSD is a gift. And anyone who doesn't see that
>should take another look at Microsoft's pricing options for a simple
>Home edition of XP (now $99, five years after its initial release).
>Please do the community a favor: Just say thanks and move along.
>

The community doesen't want the new logo and the majority of the
community
prefers Beastie over the sex-toy.



You speak for the community?


**Of course, this was not aimed at the general community, but more
>specifically at the folks wasting everyone's inbox space the past few
>days with this nonsense.**
>

like yourself?



Agreed, and this will be my last post on the subject - though, I'm sure it
won't be yours...

Ted




-David
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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: Greg Barniskis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:36 AM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: cpghost; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
>
>
>Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>
>>
>> I take affront to such answers because of the simple fact that it's
>> obvious that your perfectly valid answer isn't a real answer.  A real
>> answer would be something that would get rid of this continual
>> resurgence of this discussion.
>
>Thus the suggestion that folks pursue it in a forum where PR might
>actually be germane, and in a way that might actually bear results.

But that isn't a real answer since the people that put in the new
logo don't want to change things no matter how many people scream
about it.  As long as the new logo is in place and it is as bad as
it is, we are going to see this erupt here periodically.  Why?  Because
as new people come in and start using questions@ they are going to
comment about it and the whole argument is going to start over again.

If barking about it on a different forum would actually make a difference
you would see people doing it on that forum.  But it won't, and we
all know it.

This is exactly like the motorcycle helmet law arguments.  The slight
majority of motorcycle riders are opposed to helmet laws, why?  Because
too large a percentage of riders are flipping idiots and the rest of the
anti-helmet-law percentage of riders are stuck in some born-to-be-wild
fantasy about how they aren't opposed to helmets, but people should
have a 'choice'.

But it's apparent
to the rest of the general population that since too many riders are
flipping idiots, we have to mandate helmet laws.  So we do, and
that has become a sore point on online motorcycle forums and you
can expect to see periodic eruptions of the argument on those
forums, basically forever.

>
>Despite what 24-hour cable news channels might like to have us
>believe, % self-selected email senders <> % actually holding
>opinions. Asserting that these are valid statistics is nonsense.
>

Which is why I said "based on responses" I assume people reading
that would be intelligent enough to understand self-selected results.
But not all self-selected results are viewed as bullcrap.  Consumer
Reports
rakes in millions if not hundreds of millions of bucks and it's
auto ratings are completely self-selected, and is highly respected by
many
people.  Are you saying that Consumer Reports auto ratings are
nonsense? ;-)

>Like many folks who really don't care about the logo all that much
>one way or the other, I simply won't be reading or posting on this
>subject any more (making any future post counts that much less valid
>as statistics).
>

Since you don't have an opinion one way or another on the new logo
vs the old logo, you really shouldn't have posted to this thread in
the first place.

Ted

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RE: New FreeBSD logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Stanford
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:32 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo
>
>
>Why, oh why, would you post this?
>
>So help me to understand...The FreeBSD Project takes great effort in
>not only producing a truly _great_ operating system, trademarked as
>being fast, robust, stable and secure, provides it to the world for
>_free_, but also takes on the additional chore of attempting to
>promote its growth in the corporate market by  introducing a new
>logo...and then some, all for the community. And your repayment is to
>aid in these, now, endless rants of verbal bashing of the Project's
>logo, which had an obvious goal of gaining wider popularity among
>busnesses for the purposes of making it bigger and better for, yes,
>_you_ and every other one of its users.

Your missing something - "they" didn't ask all us users if we wanted
a new logo or not.

>Maybe I'm going out on a limb
>here, and maybe I'm solo dangling out there on it, but I feel a need
>to say something in defense. They spent

they wasted

> much valued donation money for
>the logo and in legal fees, I'm sure, to obtain it, so I would assume
>(and hope) it's here to stay.

Unlikely.  Most corporate logos change every 10-20 years or so.  Some
also have a raft of logos.  For example Chrysler used to use the
medallion for it's logo.  Then they switched to the pentagram.  Now
they are back to the medallion and it's been redone.AT&T has also
changed logos, they used to use the bell then the Death Star, now
they are using a modifed Death Star.  Fads and fashions
in logos come and go.  The current FreBSD sex toy logo is very
much a current fashion, as abstract logos like that are all the
rage now.  But it's just going to get dated all the faster for that.

>Furthermore, by continuing to post
>threads like this you (and others) are hardly contributing to the
>Project (or this list) and, in fact, are doing the exact opposite -
>you are attempting to destroy the new logo's image by imaturely
>calling it a "sex toy" and in turn are slowly taking away from those
>precious dollars put into aquiring it.

Why throw more good money after bad?

>Maybe it's not the greatest
>logo, but, regardless, the logo doesn't affect the code. Try to keep
>that in mind. FreeBSD is a gift. And anyone who doesn't see that
>should take another look at Microsoft's pricing options for a simple
>Home edition of XP (now $99, five years after its initial release).
>Please do the community a favor: Just say thanks and move along.
>

The community doesen't want the new logo and the majority of the
community
prefers Beastie over the sex-toy.

>**Of course, this was not aimed at the general community, but more
>specifically at the folks wasting everyone's inbox space the past few
>days with this nonsense.**
>

like yourself?

Ted

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Re: New FreeBSD Logo (was ACPI / APM Question)

[Graham Bentley]

Figure this may get more attention - LOL !!!

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:31:50 +0100
From: "Graham Bentley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: ACPI / APM Question
To: 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I am running 6.0 on a little rackserver.
Alot of the time its inactive and I was
wondering about trying to setup ACPI
the main reason being to spin down the 
disc / PSU so its a bit quieter (its in my 
office) I would require it to wake on
LAN activity. How feasable is this
and what steps do I need to take
to set it up ?

I am reading acpiconf man right now
but I suspect more is required.

I have set the BIOS to WOL, spin
down disc after 15 mins and ACPI
suspend type to S1.

Just tested acpiconf -s 4 and it
shuts the system down completely?

Any help appreciated - Thanks!




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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Greg Barniskis]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:





To those taking affront at such answers, no one is saying "oh, fork
you!" in some intentionally rude or belittling way (at least, I'm
not), they're saying forking (process-wise) to the appropriate forum
is the logical thing to do.



I take affront to such answers because of the simple fact that it's
obvious that your perfectly valid answer isn't a real answer.  A real
answer would be something that would get rid of this continual
resurgence of this discussion.


Thus the suggestion that folks pursue it in a forum where PR might 
actually be germane, and in a way that might actually bear results. 
Continual barking on questions@ about how upset folks are has got to 
be among the very least effective ways of seeking change (other than 
changes to killfiles).




Based on responses I'd estimate about 60% of FBSD users didn't want
the logo changed before the contest.

Based on responses post-contest results, I think about 90% of users hate
the new logo.  


Despite what 24-hour cable news channels might like to have us 
believe, % self-selected email senders <> % actually holding 
opinions. Asserting that these are valid statistics is nonsense.


Like many folks who really don't care about the logo all that much 
one way or the other, I simply won't be reading or posting on this 
subject any more (making any future post counts that much less valid 
as statistics).



--
Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator
South Central Library System (SCLS)
Library Interchange Network (LINK)
, (608) 266-6348
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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Jerry McAllister]

> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/05/2006 11:42:17:
> > 
> >> hi,
> >>
> >> On 5/9/06, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Then take this to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  It's just flame bait here.
> >> I don't want a chat, I want to know where I can find out how we ended
> >> up with such a terrible logo.  It seems people think it's a big joke? 
> >> The new logo already looks dated, and will only get worse with time.
> >>
> >  
> > This happened ages ago and was announced in the news section of the 
> > website
> > 
> > See - http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/result/
> > 
> > John
> 
> it was only announced after the selection was over. freebsd users were
> not involved. this is not right. :-(

that is not true.
The intent to change the logo - or create one - was announced and a
"contest" for choosing a logo was announced and entries were solicited
well before the choice of logo was done.

> also, the other entries were not published. so we can't really compare.

That is true and I think that may have been a poor choice but it probably
would have resulted in even more noise on the lists rather than less.

> it seems like the whole thing was intended to be quiet and public was
> just left out of the process.

Not completely left out, but less involved than might be ideal.

I just wish the FreeBSD community had more ability to create meaningful
logos.   Their talents seem to all lie in the area of creating and
managing software systems...

By the way, here where I work,  they made a big fuss and came up with
a new 'logo' that we are required to have on our cards and such and
it is totally meaningless and unrelated to what our department is
or does.  It is, at least a little bit artsey and attractice, but
I think this logo problem is endemic in the field.

jerry

> 
> martin
> 
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Re: New FreeBSD logo

[David Stanford]

Why, oh why, would you post this?

So help me to understand...The FreeBSD Project takes great effort in
not only producing a truly _great_ operating system, trademarked as
being fast, robust, stable and secure, provides it to the world for
_free_, but also takes on the additional chore of attempting to
promote its growth in the corporate market by  introducing a new
logo...and then some, all for the community. And your repayment is to
aid in these, now, endless rants of verbal bashing of the Project's
logo, which had an obvious goal of gaining wider popularity among
busnesses for the purposes of making it bigger and better for, yes,
_you_ and every other one of its users. Maybe I'm going out on a limb
here, and maybe I'm solo dangling out there on it, but I feel a need
to say something in defense. They spent much valued donation money for
the logo and in legal fees, I'm sure, to obtain it, so I would assume
(and hope) it's here to stay. Furthermore, by continuing to post
threads like this you (and others) are hardly contributing to the
Project (or this list) and, in fact, are doing the exact opposite -
you are attempting to destroy the new logo's image by imaturely
calling it a "sex toy" and in turn are slowly taking away from those
precious dollars put into aquiring it. Maybe it's not the greatest
logo, but, regardless, the logo doesn't affect the code. Try to keep
that in mind. FreeBSD is a gift. And anyone who doesn't see that
should take another look at Microsoft's pricing options for a simple
Home edition of XP (now $99, five years after its initial release).
Please do the community a favor: Just say thanks and move along.

**Of course, this was not aimed at the general community, but more
specifically at the folks wasting everyone's inbox space the past few
days with this nonsense.**

-David

On 5/11/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 Oh my gosh,

I thought people were exagerating about the sextoy logo, but after some late
night research i found this, and was frankly disgusted.

  http://www.toy-company.co.uk/index.html?target=p_1876.html&lang=en-gb

It's like Linux having a midget in a PVC Nun outfit and calling him "Fux the
Penguin".

Best of luck,


reflex
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New FreeBSD logo

[reflex]

Oh my gosh,

I thought people were exagerating about the sextoy logo, but after some late
night research i found this, and was frankly disgusted.

http://www.toy-company.co.uk/index.html?target=p_1876.html&lang=en-gb

It's like Linux having a midget in a PVC Nun outfit and calling him "Fux the
Penguin".

Best of luck,


reflex
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Fabian Keil]

"Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Axel S. Gruner
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:46 AM
> >To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> >Subject: RE: New FreeBSD Logo
> >
> >
> >Am Mittwoch, den 10.05.2006, 02:05 -0700 schrieb Ted Mittelstaedt:
> >> My guess is it will be a long, long time before you see CDROMs
> >> from anybody that have deleted Beastie and have the sex toy.
> >
> >At LinuxTag 2006 in Wiesbaden we had prepared a lot of CDs with the new
> >Logo (what you call a "sex toy"?). We also used the new logo as a flag
> >on our booth. 
> >You will find a few pictures here: 
> >http://www.encephalon.de/photo/bsd_bilder/lt2006/index.html
> >
> >So, the "long long time" was a really short time ;-).
> >
> 
> I think you missed the part of the post where I said:
> 
> "people have to pay for, to see if those last as a product,"
> 
> The context of the post made it pretty clear I was talking about
> commercial CD's that are sold, not given away.

Issue 3/2006 of the German magazine freeX has the new logo on
its cover, on the included disc and it appears several times
in the articles.

http://www.cul.de/images/freex32006cg.jpg

Fabian
-- 
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Beech Rintoul]

On Thursday 11 May 2006 00:10, you wrote:
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Barniskis
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:07 AM
> >To: cpghost
> >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> >Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
> >
> >
> >These are indeed all perfectly valid questions. What I was trying to
> >express is that the askers really don't seem to be accepting (or
> >even seeing) the perfectly valid answers:
> >
> >* See the archives where this was beaten to death multiple times.
> >* The best place to pursue such matters is in those forums chartered
> >for PR and general chatter.
> >* Read [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >To those taking affront at such answers, no one is saying "oh, fork
> >you!" in some intentionally rude or belittling way (at least, I'm
> >not), they're saying forking (process-wise) to the appropriate forum
> >is the logical thing to do.
>
> I take affront to such answers because of the simple fact that it's
> obvious that your perfectly valid answer isn't a real answer.  A real
> answer would be something that would get rid of this continual
> resurgence of this discussion.
>
> Based on responses I'd estimate about 60% of FBSD users didn't want
> the logo changed before the contest.
>
> Based on responses post-contest results, I think about 90% of users hate
> the new logo.  Now, the folks that didn't want the logo changed, well you
> can assume most
> of them aren't going to like the new logo.  But it's pretty clear that
> quite a large number of the "lets change the logo" proponents don't
> like what they got.
>
> Thus, the alleged "problem" of Beastie being used as the logo, wasn't
> solved.  No amount of referring people to other lists is going to
> satify anyone - because it's still a problem.
>
> When FreeBSD changed to CAM and broke support for the Adaptec 1520
> SCSI card, tons of people complained on this forum, and many other
> in-appropriate forums.  This continued despite repeated statements from
> the developers in charge of such things that the Adaptec 1520 chipset
> is terrible, find another one, etc. etc.  Finally someone wrote the
> driver and the complaints went away - because the real answer had
> happened.
>
> If core simply cannot tolerate Beastie as the logo, so they simply
> have to have something else, then the only real answer is to ditch the
> sex toy and draw another "new" logo to replace it.  Hell, commercial
> companies do this all the time.
>
> That would be the logical response.  But, core won't do it because
> egos are involved here, and to do this would be an open admission
> that they fucked up.
>
> Seems to be that the core developers have no problem admitting when
> they have fucked up some technical decision about how FreeBSD is
> structured internally.  But, when it comes to something like a poor
> result of a silly contest, they are unable to grok that.  Very very
> strange.
>
> Ted

You were right about the printing. I had to get something from the printer 
this afternoon, so I printed out a copy of the new logo and took it with me.
I ask them how much for 1K CD case inserts. They said it would have to be done 
4 color and they would be .30 - .40 ea with setup. And that's not even 
including the CD labels themselves. I've had full color brochures printed for 
not much more than that. I didn't even bother asking about server stickers.

Beech

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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Barniskis
>Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:07 AM
>To: cpghost
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
>
>
>These are indeed all perfectly valid questions. What I was trying to
>express is that the askers really don't seem to be accepting (or
>even seeing) the perfectly valid answers:
>
>* See the archives where this was beaten to death multiple times.
>* The best place to pursue such matters is in those forums chartered
>for PR and general chatter.
>* Read [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>To those taking affront at such answers, no one is saying "oh, fork
>you!" in some intentionally rude or belittling way (at least, I'm
>not), they're saying forking (process-wise) to the appropriate forum
>is the logical thing to do.
>

I take affront to such answers because of the simple fact that it's
obvious that your perfectly valid answer isn't a real answer.  A real
answer would be something that would get rid of this continual
resurgence of this discussion.

Based on responses I'd estimate about 60% of FBSD users didn't want
the logo changed before the contest.

Based on responses post-contest results, I think about 90% of users hate
the new logo.  Now, the folks that didn't want the logo changed, well you
can assume most
of them aren't going to like the new logo.  But it's pretty clear that
quite a large number of the "lets change the logo" proponents don't
like what they got.

Thus, the alleged "problem" of Beastie being used as the logo, wasn't
solved.  No amount of referring people to other lists is going to
satify anyone - because it's still a problem.

When FreeBSD changed to CAM and broke support for the Adaptec 1520
SCSI card, tons of people complained on this forum, and many other
in-appropriate forums.  This continued despite repeated statements from
the developers in charge of such things that the Adaptec 1520 chipset
is terrible, find another one, etc. etc.  Finally someone wrote the
driver and the complaints went away - because the real answer had
happened.

If core simply cannot tolerate Beastie as the logo, so they simply
have to have something else, then the only real answer is to ditch the
sex toy and draw another "new" logo to replace it.  Hell, commercial
companies do this all the time.

That would be the logical response.  But, core won't do it because
egos are involved here, and to do this would be an open admission
that they fucked up.

Seems to be that the core developers have no problem admitting when
they have fucked up some technical decision about how FreeBSD is
structured internally.  But, when it comes to something like a poor
result of a silly contest, they are unable to grok that.  Very very
strange.

Ted

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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: Ceri Davies [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:31 AM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt; Jonathan Horne; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
>
>
>On 10/5/06 09:18, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Someone already posted a professional analysis.  The summary was that
>> the new logo was amateurish with some serious flaws.
>Amateurish because
>> a ball is about the easiest thing you can produce in
>Photoshop and very
>> unoriginal.  Serious flaws because due to all the shading this logo is
>> impossible to accurately reproduce on small items like business cards,
>> and on larger items the shading makes it very expensive to
>reproduce due
>> to the number of colors used.
>
>In fact, there are reduced colour versions for exactly that
>reason.  Since
>you didn't bother to look for them, I guess this isn't the real
>issue for
>you, though.
>

I was merely relating what the summary was.  But, I think you fail to
understand the point - the summary said that
the shading is impossible to reproduce accurately on small items, a
reduced color image simply is an official statement of "yeah, we know
it's
flawed in that it cannot be accurately reduced, so here's a substitute"

It is like you got a car that is leaking oil at a rate of a quart a week
and
someone's "fix" for it is to give you a coupon for 4 free cases of oil.

I guess that's technically a "fix", hope your rod bearings stand up to
it, though.

Ted

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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Barniskis
>Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:03 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
>
>
>The logo issue is a horse that has been solidly beaten to death, 
>raised as a zombie, chased with torches and pitchforks, burnt to 
>crispiness, buried and then (surprise!) brought to life again this 
>week for another 1,001 rounds of beating and flaming. Tiresome, really.
>
>No one is belittling the subject, only pointing out that it's both 
>OT and done with. The appearance of the logo on the Web site is not 
>a beginning, it's a finality. If you want to hack and burn the 
>undead, go play Oblivion. ;)
>

Greg,

  Doesen't it occur to you that the fact that this horse keeps getting
resurrected indicates the new logo was a bad idea and needs to go
away?

  When Beastie was the logo, we didn't see arguments over the logo
erupt every 6 months or so in the questions mailing list.

  The mark of a fool is that he cannot learn from his mistakes.

Ted
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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of DAve
>Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:15 AM
>To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
>
>
>
>To be blunt about it, you and everyone else had their chance.
>My wife, a
>designer, knew FreeBSD had a logo contest and she wouldn't know FreeBSD
>from a martian if it were not for my T-shirt.
>
>Anyone could have contributed. But like beta testing, most simply
>ignored the request to participate, preferring to wait until someone
>else did the hard work and made the tough decisions, then chose
>to bitch
>when the result was not want they wanted. It's apathy. Yea, I'm more
>than annoyed and this has been a long time coming.
>

Dave,

  This isn't true, there were a lot of submissions for the logo
contest.

>How many people actually keep a development server running just to help
>open source developers test patches or updates, even when those patches
>and updates do not affect them?
>

I do, and I used it to produce a patch to the bge driver a few
weeks ago to stop panics on the HP DL320 G4.  The patch was
submitted to the PR database per instructions.

And guess what - that patch hasn't been applied.  Not only that,
but the developer assigned to the driver hasn't even posted
a reason why he DOESEN'T want to apply it.

If you want to get pissed off about apathy, please get pissed
off about stuff like that.

Ted

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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Axel S. Gruner
>Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:46 AM
>To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: RE: New FreeBSD Logo
>
>
>Am Mittwoch, den 10.05.2006, 02:05 -0700 schrieb Ted Mittelstaedt:
>> My guess is it will be a long, long time before you see CDROMs
>> from anybody that have deleted Beastie and have the sex toy.
>
>At LinuxTag 2006 in Wiesbaden we had prepared a lot of CDs with the new
>Logo (what you call a "sex toy"?). We also used the new logo as a flag
>on our booth. 
>You will find a few pictures here: 
>http://www.encephalon.de/photo/bsd_bilder/lt2006/index.html
>
>So, the "long long time" was a really short time ;-).
>

I think you missed the part of the post where I said:

"people have to pay for, to see if those last as a product,"

The context of the post made it pretty clear I was talking about
commercial CD's that are sold, not given away.

But I suppose that interpreting context is too advanced a task
to ask of some people.

Ted
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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[martinko]

Bill Moran wrote:
> On Wed, 10 May 2006 13:49:20 +
> "Kep Woof" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Take a look at the netbsd logo if you want to see how it's done.  It
>> means something.  It's neat.  It represents the project.  What we (the
>> users) seem to have ended up with is a fussy and unelegent logo that
>> has nothing to do with anythin, save for a pair of post-modern ice
>> cream cones harking back to beastie.
> 
> My brother went to school for graphic arts.  When the contest was
> announced, we spend _several_weeks_ brainstorming, he and I, trying
> to come up with something that looked as cool as the NetBSD logo, while
> representing FreeBSD.
> 
> We finally gave up without making a submission.  The problem is that
> NetBSD (and OpenBSD as well, for that matter) somehow have more culture
> to them on the graphic arts side.  NetBSD has long had the image of
> daemons raising the flag (mirroring the WWII photograph) which
> translated nicely into a logo.  OpenBSD has long had the Blowfish,
> which can be rendered a number of interesting ways.
> 
> And FreeBSD has what?  The Beastie ... but the Beastie is *BSD in
> general, so what else is there ... ?
> 
>> The simple fact is, when you look at the new logo it only makes sense
>> if you previously understand what it represents.  The effect is that
>> it represents nothing in particular, which is why it fails so
>> fantasically.  What are the key values of FreeBSD?  I'd guess
>> something like Freedom, Stability, Robustness, quality.  Those values
>> are not communicated in the new logo, and I think that's something
>> that somebody with freebsd.org in their email address should seriously
>> address.
> 
> You're exactly right.  Somebody other than you should take care of this.
> This is everyone's fault but yours.  If you'd been in the loop from the
> start, this never would have happened.  My goodness, why didn't we
> consult you earlier ... you obviously have all the answers.
> 
> This is free software man, if you don't like it, fix it
> yourself.  If you can't fix it, _ask_ someone else, or put up some
> cash to pay someone who can.  But quit whining.
> 
> You are a Troll.  If you weren't a Troll, you'd have taken this to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead of staying on this
> list.

bill, i'm afraid, this is not quite true.
as for me, for instance, i had some objections and comments on logo and
font as originally published. but i didn't get any serious responses on
mailing lists. later i tried to get in touch with the creator and/or
responsible people but to no avail.
clearly, in this case it hasn't been easy for community to reach the
right people nor it has been easy to influence the whole selection and
stuff.

m:(

> 
> Go use Microsoft, they pay professional graphic artists big bucks to
> design their logos and their marketing materials, and you fund that
> with your Windows license fees.
> 
> Or, _contribute_ something back to the wonderful free software
> community other than a lengthy email thread of whining.
> 

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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[martinko]

Ceri Davies wrote:
> On 10/5/06 23:37, "martinko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>> 
>>> On 9/5/06 15:57, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>   
 At 07:01 AM 5/9/2006, you wrote:
 
> I have to agree with the original poster. The logo is crap, and so
> is the font they've started to use since the announcement of
> FreeBSD6.1-RELEASE. At
>   
 Me Too.  At first I thought it was just a petty complaint.

 But if you're trying to "sell" FreeBSD to a boss or customer, a
 serious, business-like web site surely helps.  The new one seems to
 borrow too much from the "hax0r" community's appearance.

 And the font overflows and looks like complete shit on my
 browser;  usually this would just be blamed on using a "Non Microsoft
 Browser" (FireFox on windoze) but until we have IE for FBSD, it seems
 a legit complaint.
 
>>> The font overflows?  We didn't change the font.
>>>
>>> Ceri
>>>   
>> well, i would expect the page to scale somehow better when i try to
>> increase font size in mozilla. but if it can't even render properly when
>> i choose "officially" via "large" text size option right on the page,
>> then i must conclude it's not good and not ready for the public. :-(
>> 
>
> That's an issue for www@ -> over there.  It also has nothing to do with the
> logo.
>
> Ceri
>   

sure, i was replying on rendering issue ("font overflows").
anyway, i'm sending this to www@ as you suggested.

martin
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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[martinko]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/05/2006 11:42:17:
> 
>> hi,
>>
>> On 5/9/06, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Then take this to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  It's just flame bait here.
>> I don't want a chat, I want to know where I can find out how we ended
>> up with such a terrible logo.  It seems people think it's a big joke? 
>> The new logo already looks dated, and will only get worse with time.
>>
>  
> This happened ages ago and was announced in the news section of the 
> website
> 
> See - http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/result/
> 
> John

it was only announced after the selection was over. freebsd users were
not involved. this is not right. :-(
also, the other entries were not published. so we can't really compare.
it seems like the whole thing was intended to be quiet and public was
just left out of the process.

martin

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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Ceri Davies]

On 10/5/06 23:37, "martinko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ceri Davies wrote:
>> On 9/5/06 15:57, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> At 07:01 AM 5/9/2006, you wrote:
 I have to agree with the original poster. The logo is crap, and so
 is the font they've started to use since the announcement of
 FreeBSD6.1-RELEASE. At
>>> Me Too.  At first I thought it was just a petty complaint.
>>> 
>>> But if you're trying to "sell" FreeBSD to a boss or customer, a
>>> serious, business-like web site surely helps.  The new one seems to
>>> borrow too much from the "hax0r" community's appearance.
>>> 
>>> And the font overflows and looks like complete shit on my
>>> browser;  usually this would just be blamed on using a "Non Microsoft
>>> Browser" (FireFox on windoze) but until we have IE for FBSD, it seems
>>> a legit complaint.
>> 
>> The font overflows?  We didn't change the font.
>> 
>> Ceri
> 
> well, i would expect the page to scale somehow better when i try to
> increase font size in mozilla. but if it can't even render properly when
> i choose "officially" via "large" text size option right on the page,
> then i must conclude it's not good and not ready for the public. :-(

That's an issue for www@ -> over there.  It also has nothing to do with the
logo.

Ceri
-- 
That must be wonderful!  I don't understand it at all.
  -- Moliere



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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[martinko]

Ceri Davies wrote:
> On 9/5/06 15:57, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> At 07:01 AM 5/9/2006, you wrote:
>>> I have to agree with the original poster. The logo is crap, and so
>>> is the font they've started to use since the announcement of
>>> FreeBSD6.1-RELEASE. At
>> Me Too.  At first I thought it was just a petty complaint.
>>
>> But if you're trying to "sell" FreeBSD to a boss or customer, a
>> serious, business-like web site surely helps.  The new one seems to
>> borrow too much from the "hax0r" community's appearance.
>>
>> And the font overflows and looks like complete shit on my
>> browser;  usually this would just be blamed on using a "Non Microsoft
>> Browser" (FireFox on windoze) but until we have IE for FBSD, it seems
>> a legit complaint.
> 
> The font overflows?  We didn't change the font.
> 
> Ceri

well, i would expect the page to scale somehow better when i try to
increase font size in mozilla. but if it can't even render properly when
i choose "officially" via "large" text size option right on the page,
then i must conclude it's not good and not ready for the public. :-(

martin

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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[cpghost]

On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 09:04:31PM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
> On 9/5/06 11:56, "cpghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Semi-seriously, www@: how about offering people a chance to individually
> > customize that logo away? It's not really THAT important, but setting
> > up a transparent proxy just to filter that banner out is kind of silly
> > waste of time.
> 
> Specify your own stylesheet, move along.

Not a bad idea; thanks for that! Will try [User-CSS, I mean ;-)].

Regards,
-cpghost.

-- 
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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[cpghost]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 02:33:14PM -0400, Kris Kennaway wrote:
>>> Not everyone reads the questions list.  Heck, not even all the
>>> developers do, due to the low signal/noise ratio here.
>> 
>> Uh-oh! A mindset like this would explain a lot of things. :-(
>> 
>> Fortunately, there *are* developers here who do take users'
>> questions seriously.
> 
> You missed the point.
> 
> Signal = questions from users about FreeBSD technical support.
> 
> Noise = lots of whining about the logo.

Kris, compared to the whole volume of technical questions, the
logo-related threads/postings are an infinitely small part.
I won't bother counting on- and off-topic postings in the last
couple of months to show how high S/N really is here.

> On the plus side, if you guys keep it up I'll be able to dramatically
> improve my view of the S/N ratio by adding those with nothing better
> to contribute than their indignation to my killfile (some are there
> already) so I *can* focus on the user questions.

Feel free to do so. You've been of great help on this list many
times before (thank you), so I'll hate being on your killfile, even
for tech questions. But since it's your spare time, I understand this.
Bye, Kris. Keep up the excellent work.

> Kris

Regards,
-cpghost.

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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Kris Kennaway]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 05:47:44PM +, cpghost wrote:
> On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 05:28:55PM +0200, Erik Trulsson wrote:
> > > Many professional logo design people never even knew about
> > > the contest to redesign the logo because it was not posted
> > > to the questions list where everyone reads.
> > 
> > Not everyone reads the questions list.  Heck, not even all the
> > developers do, due to the low signal/noise ratio here.
> 
> Uh-oh! A mindset like this would explain a lot of things. :-(
> 
> Fortunately, there *are* developers here who do take users'
> questions seriously.

You missed the point.

Signal = questions from users about FreeBSD technical support.

Noise = lots of whining about the logo.

On the plus side, if you guys keep it up I'll be able to dramatically
improve my view of the S/N ratio by adding those with nothing better
to contribute than their indignation to my killfile (some are there
already) so I *can* focus on the user questions.

Kris

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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Chris Howells]

cpghost wrote:


Uh-oh! A mindset like this would explain a lot of things. :-(


Yes, it explains that some people are too busy to read hundreds of 
messages on this list, and would rather do something else like coding.

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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Jeff Rollin]

> > Since we're talking about logos: when will the next time window
> > open for a new try? I humbly suggest using 'FreeBSD' (the text,



Good idea. The word "FreeBSD" as it stood at the top of the
freebsd.orgmainpage the day before the release of
6.1-RELEASE was nice.



> There were tens of submissions that just had the word 'FreeBSD'.

Ah, good to know. Thank you.

>  The word
> 'FreeBSD' isn't a logo, or they looked crappy, so they lost.

What about 'SONY' or 'IBM'? They are logos too. Granted, not as
long as 'FreeBSD', but a word doesn't disqualify as a logo just
because it's a word.



"Technics" is even longer. "Daewoo" and "Sanyo" are shorter, but foreign to
all but the Koreans (in the first case) and the Japanese (in the second)

Plus, the Koreans and the Japanese don't write in the Roman alphabet
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Greg Barniskis]

cpghost wrote:

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 10:03:04AM -0500, Greg Barniskis wrote:
No one is belittling the subject, only pointing out that it's both 
OT and done with. The appearance of the logo on the Web site is not 
a beginning, it's a finality.


questions@ is for general user questions. The sex-toy just appeared
on the main website, and a user then asked questions about it. That's
a perfectly valid forum, *especially* considering the current time frame.


Point taken. I could have phrased that better.

* What/when/how did this happen?
* How and when can it be undone?
* Why didn't I hear about this before?

These are indeed all perfectly valid questions. What I was trying to 
express is that the askers really don't seem to be accepting (or 
even seeing) the perfectly valid answers:


* See the archives where this was beaten to death multiple times.
* The best place to pursue such matters is in those forums chartered 
for PR and general chatter.

* Read [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To those taking affront at such answers, no one is saying "oh, fork 
you!" in some intentionally rude or belittling way (at least, I'm 
not), they're saying forking (process-wise) to the appropriate forum 
is the logical thing to do.


And [in response to the opposition party] no, I don't buy the 
assertion that questions@ is the correct forum to continue fighting 
in simply because it's popular. That's like saying spam is good 
because it reaches a lot of people cheaply. Forums have charters for 
reasons.


--
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South Central Library System (SCLS)
Library Interchange Network (LINK)
, (608) 266-6348
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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Ceri Davies]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 07:00:49PM +0100, Jeff Rollin wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I for one do not see an need to change the logo at all.
> >
> >That's no reason to tell lies.
> 
> There's no reason to accuse people of telling lies without having any
> evidence, either.

Statements were made which are provably untrue.  Call it what you want.

> Can't wait till you get caught out.

Sure.

Ceri
-- 
That must be wonderful!  I don't understand it at all.
  -- Moliere


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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Ceri Davies]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 05:51:10PM +, cpghost wrote:
> On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 06:40:01PM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
> > On 10/5/06 18:24, "cpghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 02:44:03PM +, Kep Woof wrote:
> > >>> This is free software man, if you don't like it, fix it
> > >>> yourself.
> > >> 
> > >> What is the procedure to fix a logo?
> > > 
> > > use send-pr(1), of course!
> > > 
> > > Since we're talking about logos: when will the next time window
> > > open for a new try? I humbly suggest using 'FreeBSD' (the text,
> > > no graphics) as logo. The only parameter would be choosing the
> > > right distinctive font (let's call it the FreeBSD-Font) for it.
> > > Was that suggested back then? We used to have a 'FreeBSD' image
> > > on the old website. Perhaps that should have been used as a logo?
> > > ANYTHING would have been better than that current ugly sex-toy.
> > 
> > There were tens of submissions that just had the word 'FreeBSD'.
> 
> Ah, good to know. Thank you.
> 
> >  The word
> > 'FreeBSD' isn't a logo, or they looked crappy, so they lost.
> 
> What about 'SONY' or 'IBM'? They are logos too. Granted, not as
> long as 'FreeBSD', but a word doesn't disqualify as a logo just
> because it's a word.

I wouldn't sweat (or trust my memory to remember) the details.  Most of
them definitely said "Free BSD" though.

Ceri
-- 
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  -- Moliere


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Description: PGP signature

Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Jeff Rollin]

> I for one do not see an need to change the logo at all.

That's no reason to tell lies.



There's no reason to accuse people of telling lies without having any
evidence, either.

Can't wait till you get caught out.

Jeff.
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Pietro Cerutti]

Could we please stop this flood??

--
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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[cpghost]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 06:40:01PM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
> On 10/5/06 18:24, "cpghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 02:44:03PM +, Kep Woof wrote:
> >>> This is free software man, if you don't like it, fix it
> >>> yourself.
> >> 
> >> What is the procedure to fix a logo?
> > 
> > use send-pr(1), of course!
> > 
> > Since we're talking about logos: when will the next time window
> > open for a new try? I humbly suggest using 'FreeBSD' (the text,
> > no graphics) as logo. The only parameter would be choosing the
> > right distinctive font (let's call it the FreeBSD-Font) for it.
> > Was that suggested back then? We used to have a 'FreeBSD' image
> > on the old website. Perhaps that should have been used as a logo?
> > ANYTHING would have been better than that current ugly sex-toy.
> 
> There were tens of submissions that just had the word 'FreeBSD'.

Ah, good to know. Thank you.

>  The word
> 'FreeBSD' isn't a logo, or they looked crappy, so they lost.

What about 'SONY' or 'IBM'? They are logos too. Granted, not as
long as 'FreeBSD', but a word doesn't disqualify as a logo just
because it's a word.

Regards,
-cpghost.

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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[cpghost]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 05:28:55PM +0200, Erik Trulsson wrote:
> > Many professional logo design people never even knew about
> > the contest to redesign the logo because it was not posted
> > to the questions list where everyone reads.
> 
> Not everyone reads the questions list.  Heck, not even all the
> developers do, due to the low signal/noise ratio here.

Uh-oh! A mindset like this would explain a lot of things. :-(

Fortunately, there *are* developers here who do take users'
questions seriously.

cpghost.

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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Ceri Davies]

On 10/5/06 18:24, "cpghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 02:44:03PM +, Kep Woof wrote:
>>> This is free software man, if you don't like it, fix it
>>> yourself.
>> 
>> What is the procedure to fix a logo?
> 
> use send-pr(1), of course!
> 
> Since we're talking about logos: when will the next time window
> open for a new try? I humbly suggest using 'FreeBSD' (the text,
> no graphics) as logo. The only parameter would be choosing the
> right distinctive font (let's call it the FreeBSD-Font) for it.
> Was that suggested back then? We used to have a 'FreeBSD' image
> on the old website. Perhaps that should have been used as a logo?
> ANYTHING would have been better than that current ugly sex-toy.

There were tens of submissions that just had the word 'FreeBSD'.  The word
'FreeBSD' isn't a logo, or they looked crappy, so they lost.

Ceri
-- 
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  -- Moliere



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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ceri Davies]

On 10/5/06 15:15, "DAve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> http://pixelhammer.com/aw_jeez.jpg
> 
> This has gone too far. Searching shows that the FreeBSD questions list
> had mention of this over a year ago.
> 
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/htdig/freebsd-questions/2005-February/076063.
> html
> 
> To be blunt about it, you and everyone else had their chance. My wife, a
> designer, knew FreeBSD had a logo contest and she wouldn't know FreeBSD
> from a martian if it were not for my T-shirt.
> 
> Anyone could have contributed. But like beta testing, most simply
> ignored the request to participate, preferring to wait until someone
> else did the hard work and made the tough decisions, then chose to bitch
> when the result was not want they wanted. It's apathy. Yea, I'm more
> than annoyed and this has been a long time coming.
> 
> How many people actually keep a development server running just to help
> open source developers test patches or updates, even when those patches
> and updates do not affect them?
> 
> How many donate to the souls who write the tools we use every day? Or do
> they just read the maillists when they need help, never offering to help
> others, and then get an attitude when the help they request doesn't
> arrive? A lot.
> 
> I constantly dog my employers to donate, let me have work time to help
> out on lists, purchase the books (Mailscanner and Rails) that help the
> developers, keep a development box for testing. They complain even
> though they could not compete in the market place had they been required
> to purchase licenses for all the software they use.
> 
> The Internet is the industry that open source built, and it has created
> a society of hand out junkies who think they should get everything their
> way, for free, right now.
> 
> This job isn't fun anymore.

Hear, hear.

Ceri
-- 
That must be wonderful!  I don't understand it at all.
  -- Moliere



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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[cpghost]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 10:03:04AM -0500, Greg Barniskis wrote:
> No one is belittling the subject, only pointing out that it's both 
> OT and done with. The appearance of the logo on the Web site is not 
> a beginning, it's a finality.

questions@ is for general user questions. The sex-toy just appeared
on the main website, and a user then asked questions about it. That's
a perfectly valid forum, *especially* considering the current time frame.
Questions like these, and the following threads are bound to come every
now and then, also and especially here on [EMAIL PROTECTED] The logo advocates
and the committee that picked the current logo brought it on themselves
and will have to live with it. Just like we users have to live with their
unfortunate decision.

-cpghost.

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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Ceri Davies]

On 10/5/06 09:18, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jonathan Horne
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 7:23 PM
>> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>> Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo
>> 
>> 
>> i dont mind saying that i think i must be about the only one
>> who likes the
>> new art.  i think its very modern looking, crisp and abreviated,
>> un-childish, but at the same time not too serious or ominous.
>> 
>> ive actually thought about printing out some examples of both versions,
>> carrying it down to our artists in our print studio, and "taste testing"
>> them with professional artists who couldnt give one care about anything
>> technical.  *shrug* would be an interesting experiment, to say
>> the least.
>> 
> 
> Someone already posted a professional analysis.  The summary was that
> the new logo was amateurish with some serious flaws.  Amateurish because
> a ball is about the easiest thing you can produce in Photoshop and very
> unoriginal.  Serious flaws because due to all the shading this logo is
> impossible to accurately reproduce on small items like business cards,
> and on larger items the shading makes it very expensive to reproduce due
> to the number of colors used.

In fact, there are reduced colour versions for exactly that reason.  Since
you didn't bother to look for them, I guess this isn't the real issue for
you, though.

Ceri
-- 
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  -- Moliere



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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Ceri Davies]

On 10/5/06 16:42, "Jeff Rollin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> 
>> Does anyone else think its a logo get over it? When was the last time an
>> IT admin went I installed Win 2k3 becuase it has that cool logo thing
>> that I like for a screensaver?
> 
> 
> I think it's a bigger problem than that. When was the last time Steve
> Ballmer responded to a complaint that his shiny new elephant d*ck
> screensaver crashed the system with the words "Go fuck yourself"? That's the
> kind of response some who claim to be high-ups in the FreeBSD community are
> giving here.

Not a single "high-up", whatever that means, has responded to this thread.

Could be nice if people would stop lying while trying to make a point.

Ceri
-- 
That must be wonderful!  I don't understand it at all.
  -- Moliere



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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Ceri Davies]

On 10/5/06 15:25, "fbsd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Your negtave comments are foundless.
> A public vote is not an logistical near-impossibility.
> Hell just creating a special list to submit an email
> to as your yes or not vote is a simple solution and other
> solutions could be found one way or the other.

I guess that's why the USENET voting procedures didn't just get abandoned.

> If you are insulted by my comments then I guess you
> belong the self righteous snobs group and I dont care about you.

Funny, that.

Ceri
-- 
That must be wonderful!  I don't understand it at all.
  -- Moliere



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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Ceri Davies]

On 10/5/06 13:13, "fbsd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> As a long time reader of this list I did not see any
> announcement of it here. Only after selection of the
> new logo was made was it talked about on this list
> People were very up set with it them and the ground
> swell over this has only gotten bigger.
> 
> Loyal long time users are feeling insulted about being
> left out from the decision about the need for a new logo.
> A post in the archive give some lame reasons for a new logo
> which many people disagreed with even then but still the
> new legal FreeBSD foundation went ahead any how put it
> on the official website.
> 
> I for one do not see an need to change the logo at all.

That's no reason to tell lies.

Ceri
-- 
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  -- Moliere



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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[cpghost]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 02:44:03PM +, Kep Woof wrote:
> >This is free software man, if you don't like it, fix it
> >yourself.
> 
> What is the procedure to fix a logo?

use send-pr(1), of course!

Since we're talking about logos: when will the next time window
open for a new try? I humbly suggest using 'FreeBSD' (the text,
no graphics) as logo. The only parameter would be choosing the
right distinctive font (let's call it the FreeBSD-Font) for it.
Was that suggested back then? We used to have a 'FreeBSD' image
on the old website. Perhaps that should have been used as a logo?
ANYTHING would have been better than that current ugly sex-toy.

-cpghost.

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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[cpghost]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 01:49:20PM +, Kep Woof wrote:
> What are the key values of FreeBSD?  I'd guess
> something like Freedom, Stability, Robustness, quality.

The current logo looks like a FAT bloated Beastie that swallowed
up too much code... [recently compiled 4.11 and 6.1, and it shows...] :-)
Just kidding, of course: the *code* is excellent; unlike that poor
logo design (wondering why they didn't add a nice necktie to please
the suits). :-)

-cpghost.

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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC]

On May 10, 2006, at 2:41 AM, Beech Rintoul wrote:


On Wednesday 10 May 2006 00:30, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:

On May 10, 2006, at 2:25 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

He became a mascot only after the 'new-logo' people
started agitating for the sex-ball.  Prior to that all the
literature referred to him as a logo, when the word logo was
used.  (which wasn't often, but it was used)

This is nothing more than an argument of appeasement and
has been explained before in this forum, please quit insulting
our intelligence.  We all know that Beastie's place as the
logo has been supplanted, and your side won, and your crude
attempt to explain away Beastie is insulting.  You won, be
content with that.


Wow, Ted a top-poster!

A professional evaluation of "beastie" showed he was not a logo and
had served as a poor-one at that in his ersatz role as a wanna-be
logo.   (Note that I did not say that Beastie was poor but that he
had served as a poor logo based on professional criteria of what
makes a good logo).  Beastie has his place.

Chad


That's all well and good, but I for one don't plan to replace the  
"powered by"
beastie logo on any of my sites with that sex-toy. It would be  
interesting to

see how many webmasters agree with me.


We have had this out before.  No one is asking you or forcing you to  
replace any beastie you have anywhere.  Can me move on?  The post I  
made was specifically in response to one from Ted where he made  
claims about professional reviews of the new logo.


For the record, the new logo doesn't impress me either.

move along

Chad



Beech





Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Björn  
König

Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:35 PM
To: Lawrence Horvath
Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo

Lawrence Horvath schrieb:

I quite like the new logo, i think the new one is far more
professional then the old one, though i liked them both.


I would say that there isn't an old one. Beastie is a little bit
older
than FreeBSD and I would understand it as mascot, not as a logo.
So the
new logo is not a replacement, but rather something that is
missing for
many years; and Beastie is still alive.

Regards
 Björn
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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Kyrre Nygard]

At 17:42 10.05.2006, Jeff Rollin wrote:


Does anyone else think its a logo get over it? When was the last time an
IT admin went I installed Win 2k3 becuase it has that cool logo thing
that I like for a screensaver?



I think it's a bigger problem than that. When was the last time Steve
Ballmer responded to a complaint that his shiny new elephant d*ck
screensaver crashed the system with the words "Go fuck yourself"? That's the
kind of response some who claim to be high-ups in the FreeBSD community are
giving here.

That kind of attitude helps no one, least of all FreeBSD's reputation.


Freeze! This is the BSDPD. Stop this shit immediately!

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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[jedrek]

Hi,

> However, where were the other designs?  

I was wondering about that myself...

> Take a look at the netbsd logo if you want to see how it's done.  

Netbsd logo is very nice indeed.

> The simple fact is, when you look at the new logo it only makes sense
> if you previously understand what it represents.  The effect is that
> it represents nothing in particular, which is why it fails so
> fantasically.  What are the key values of FreeBSD?  I'd guess
> something like Freedom, Stability, Robustness, quality.  Those values
> are not communicated in the new logo, and I think that's something
> that somebody with freebsd.org in their email address should seriously
> address.

Kep totally has a point here.  Freebsd need's a logo that represents
what the name stands for and the "sex toy" isn't it.  

-- 
jedrek


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Description: PGP signature

Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Jeff Rollin]

Does anyone else think its a logo get over it? When was the last time an
IT admin went I installed Win 2k3 becuase it has that cool logo thing
that I like for a screensaver?



I think it's a bigger problem than that. When was the last time Steve
Ballmer responded to a complaint that his shiny new elephant d*ck
screensaver crashed the system with the words "Go fuck yourself"? That's the
kind of response some who claim to be high-ups in the FreeBSD community are
giving here.

That kind of attitude helps no one, least of all FreeBSD's reputation.
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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Erik Trulsson]

On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 10:25:32AM -0400, fbsd wrote:
> Thank you for making my point.
> This should have been announced on all lists.
> Just not the announcement list.

Wrong.  That is exactly what the announcment list is for.

> Changing the logo is really a big thing.

Not really.

> 
> See the outcome of the short sightedness of that decision.

Yeah, we get lots of whining people like yourself wasting bandwidth.

> 
> And why should just the core committers be
> the only ones given a vote.

Since they are the ones doing most of the job, it seems like
a reasonable place to draw the line.

> Most of them are too busy to even have been
> aware this was happening.

Really?


> 
> Many professional logo design people never even knew about
> the contest to redesign the logo because it was not posted
> to the questions list where everyone reads.

Not everyone reads the questions list.  Heck, not even all the
developers do, due to the low signal/noise ratio here.

> 
> What makes you think that the announcement list gets even
> a fraction of the readers the questions list does.

The fact that it is a much more important list to read.
If you only read one freebsd.org mailing list it should be
announce@ since that is where all important announcments are made
(including security advisories.)

> 
> Hell the questinos list gets enought junk post all ready,

Yes, but that does not mean you have to provide even more evidence
of that.

> what's the harm in posting such an inportment message to the
> list to begin with, not doing so makes no sense at all.
> 
> Somebody messed up big time and now they have to deal with the
> results of their stupid mistakes.
> 
> You core committer people have to break out of this
> private club mentality thing you all adhere to.
> 
> The logo effects all users and as such we should have vote in the
> matter.

Bullshit.


> What were you all thinking? This was a bad idea from the get go.
> 
> 
> Just because core committer have the ability to write high level
> code
> does not give them the right to thumb your collective noses
> at the rest of us users in the matter of needing a new logo.
> 
> In moving to an new legal status by forming the FreeBSD
> foundation us users just look the other way just long as
> the software stays free of cost and no new legal restraints
> are imposed on the software use.
> 
> But changing the logo effects all users and sham on you
> self righteous snobs to even think you have the right to
> exclude the user community from the logo decision.
> 
> Get off your high horses and serve your users like your suppose to.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the developers
have any obligations to you.  That is not the case.

> 
> 
> I think the new logo should be shit canned and the whole
> question of replaceing the "beastie" logo brought up for
> a general vote bye all members of all the Freebsd mailing lists.

And I think you should stop whining about the logo and do something
useful instead.

> 
> Your negtave comments are foundless.

Much like your allegations then?

>
> A public vote is not an logistical near-impossibility.
> Hell just creating a special list to submit an email
> to as your yes or not vote is a simple solution and other
> solutions could be found one way or the other.
> 
> If you are insulted by my comments then I guess you
> belong the self righteous snobs group and I dont care about you.
> 
> This is address the the users who like me are out raged by this.
> 
> If you dont like the new logo then lets make our combined voices
>  make a differance by emailing the new foundation's forming members.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Nick Withers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:37 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 May 2006 08:13:24 -0400
> "fbsd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > As a long time reader of this list I did not see any
> > announcement of it here.
> 
> That's because this is the freebsd-questions list. It was
> announced on the freebsd-announce list. Y'know, the one where
> announcements are made...
> 
> > Only after selection of the new logo was made was it
> > talked about on this list People were very up set with it
> > them and the ground swell over this has only gotten bigger.
> 
> Again, this is the freebsd-questions list. I don't really think
> that this is actually the most appropriate place for discussion
> of such things (and therefore I should probably apologise for
> contributing to this lil' thread!).
> 
> > Loyal long time users are feeling in

Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Jeff Rollin]

> Take a look at the netbsd logo if you want to see how it's done.  It
> means something.  It's neat.  It represents the project.  What we (the
> users) seem to have ended up with is a fussy and unelegent logo that
> has nothing to do with anythin, save for a pair of post-modern ice
> cream cones harking back to beastie.

My brother went to school for graphic arts.  When the contest was
announced, we spend _several_weeks_ brainstorming, he and I, trying
to come up with something that looked as cool as the NetBSD logo, while
representing FreeBSD.



The NetBSD sucks too, imao-fyi.
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Jeff Rollin]

I'm going to put my 2 cents (or at the current conversion rate, 1 (British)
penny!) in here, I think.

I consider myself a new FreeBSD user. I have used it before (around 4.8),
but never really did much with it. I find that I don't very often dual boot
OSes, so I've had nothing but Gentoo on my desktop till now. I finally
decided to put FreeBSD 6.0 on my laptop, alongside SuSE, and give it a try.

I don't expect to have a "vote" on whether the FreeBSD logo is any good or
not. But I can still express an opinion.

I'm here to tell you that Beastie has recognition from outside the community
as well. That's what logos are for. We in the BSD community, new members as
well as old, know who we are. As I said, I did not vote on the new logo
business, but if I did, I would have said no.

Why didn't I? Well it wasn't because I agreed with it, or because I didn't
know about it. I simply didn't consider that I had a right to vote, given
that at the time I wasn't even using FreeBSD. People can, and do, use the
FreeBSD logo to spread awareness of the OS. That is a good thing. I take the
view FreeBSD is intimately connected with Beastie. If the "corporate" and
"religious fundie" arguments hold water, then why is Beastie still the
FreeBSD mascot?

I disagreed because, apart from not seeing the point of pandering to a few
religious fundies (and those among you who object to such a characterisation
should know that I consider myself pretty religious, too, just not a
fundie), as I said, Beastie has brand recognition. Sometimes, it's true, you
just HAVE to bite the bullet and get a new brand, but there's no point doing
it unless its absolutely necessary. I can't remember the last time I saw a
different version of the IBM logo except on sites about IBM history. Why?
Because people recognize it. It has the advantage of not being too closely
identified with a particular era, of course, but so does Beastie. For
another example of the same, I believe SONY will suffice.

For a few years I've had THE DESIGN AND IMPLEMENTATION OF THE 4.4BSD O.S. It
has Beastie on the cover. I'd be more concerned about looking like a geek in
synagogue if someone caught me there with it, than a Satanist.

I think I'm justified in saying that Linux distributions are more widely
accepted than probably all the BSD's put together, certainly in terms of
brand recognition amongst the wider public. Having a penguin as the logo
doesn't seem to have hurt, even when you consider that (for whatever
reason), the root of Linus's fondness for penguins comes from being bitten
by one.

When ST:TOS came out, the production co. wanted to drop Spock because they
thought his appearance was too "devilish", despite the fact that in the
first (pilot) episode, he *even smiled*. Needless to say, Roddenberry (sp?)
stuck to his guns and today Spock is one of the best-loved ST characters,
known even outside the Star Trek fan community. I'm sure a few religious
fundies still probably object to him (have they found a passage in Leviticus
implying "God hates aliens/logic" yet?).

My question to you is this: Who amongst the fanbase, the wider public, or at
Paramount gives a damn?

Turned into more like my 2 pounds, but there we go.

Yours,

Jeff.
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Greg Barniskis]

fbsd wrote:

The point being it was not  announced  on the questions list.


Non-technical announcements are not in the questions@ charter.


The point being the logo affects all the users just not the core
committers.


And it affects you in exactly the same way as thousands of other 
choices made by core without your explicit involvement or approval. 
Love the new feature and use it, or, don't use it. It's real simple.


Why don't the complainers on this subject seem to understand that 
they are in no way compelled to adopt, deploy, endorse or enjoy the 
project logo? Use Beastie if you like, there is absolutely no one 
telling you that you can't (except, um, its copyright holder).



Quite trying to make a non-subject out of something that effects us
all.


Quit using question@ as a beauty contest / "user rights" forum, 
please. It *is* far OT, especially since there are other forums 
specifically for such subject matter.


The logo issue is a horse that has been solidly beaten to death, 
raised as a zombie, chased with torches and pitchforks, burnt to 
crispiness, buried and then (surprise!) brought to life again this 
week for another 1,001 rounds of beating and flaming. Tiresome, really.


No one is belittling the subject, only pointing out that it's both 
OT and done with. The appearance of the logo on the Web site is not 
a beginning, it's a finality. If you want to hack and burn the 
undead, go play Oblivion. ;)



Maybe now is the time to ask the list if that want to vote on
keeping the new logo? Or on if a new logo is wanted at all?


Wrong forum, years too late.


--
Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator
South Central Library System (SCLS)
Library Interchange Network (LINK)
, (608) 266-6348
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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Kep Woof]

Hi,

On 5/10/06, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


You're exactly right.  Somebody other than you should take care of this.


I'm trying to understand what has happened and why.  I'm trying to
take care of this, and you, with your accusations and vitriol are'nt
helping.  I want to understand the process by which the logo was
chosen so I may influence future decisions.


This is everyone's fault but yours.  If you'd been in the loop from the
start, this never would have happened.  My goodness, why didn't we
consult you earlier ... you obviously have all the answers.


Excuse me?  Now this is clearly flame baiting.


This is free software man, if you don't like it, fix it
yourself.


What is the procedure to fix a logo?  A logo doesn't work the same as
a piece of source code, which is why commiters shouldn't have been the
only people with an opinion that counts.  It's the users that use the
software.  We're an essential part of the community, we buy cd's, show
our friends, retire windows boxes here and there.  The logo is our
badge, and anyone that's ever been to a convention knows that.


If you can't fix it, _ask_ someone else, or put up some
cash to pay someone who can.


I can't help but think that cash has little to do with this.  I'm sure
between us we could raise a few thousand dollars for someone to design
a proper logo, but i'm sure it's not as simple as that.


But quit whining.


I'm not whining, I'm trying to understand.


You are a Troll.  If you weren't a Troll, you'd have taken this to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead of staying on this
list.


I'm not a troll.  It seems like a rather convenient way to silence
someone to me.  Is my question advocacy related?  I don't think so. 
It has a much wider scope than that.



Go use Microsoft, they pay professional graphic artists big bucks to
design their logos and their marketing materials, and you fund that
with your Windows license fees.


How is that related or helpful?


Or, _contribute_ something back to the wonderful free software
community other than a lengthy email thread of whining.


I'm trying to, but it has to start somewhere.  I'm trying to
understand how the logo was chosen, and why.  It would seem to have
far greater ramifications than you think.


kep
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Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[Jeff Rollin]

> Ted

The most interesting time I've had with beastie was setting up servers and
a
website for a Baptist org here in Alaska. I put beastie on the site
thinking
it would never be approved. They were seeking donations and were very
sensitive about the site's image. Not only did the clergy approve the site
with the "powered by" logo, they thought beastie was "cute".



Well, as we're  on a religious theme, Thank God for common sense. How many
religious people worldwide even HAVE devils in their religion, I wonder.

Even after several irate emails about displaying the "devil" on a church

site,
the logo remained. It was decided that several narrow minded people did
not
warrant removing it. I didn't even have to explain what a daemon is.



Again, amen. Do we really want narrow-minded people in our community? Does
anyone?

Several months later the site won an award at one of their national

conventions. The plaque featured a screen shot of the front page complete
with beastie!



That's devilishly good news,

If people are refraining from using FreeBSD because of beastie (which I

don't
believe), they really need to just grow up.



Hear, hear

If the Baptists don't have any

problem with him, I can't imagine anyone else objecting.



I can, but  then as you say, they need to grow up.

Jeff.
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Re: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[Richard Collyer]

fbsd wrote:

Thank you for making my point.
This should have been announced on all lists.
Just not the announcement list.
Changing the logo is really a big thing.


Yes. But the point of having a announce list is so that important 
announcements are not jumbled in with lots of "where can I download 
freebsd".


Does anyone else think its a logo get over it? When was the last time an 
IT admin went I installed Win 2k3 becuase it has that cool logo thing 
that I like for a screensaver?



Regards,
Richard
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RE: New freeBSD logo on freebsd.org

[fbsd]

Thank you for making my point.
This should have been announced on all lists.
Just not the announcement list.
Changing the logo is really a big thing.

See the outcome of the short sightedness of that decision.

And why should just the core committers be
the only ones given a vote.
Most of them are too busy to even have been
aware this was happening.

Many professional logo design people never even knew about
the contest to redesign the logo because it was not posted
to the questions list where everyone reads.

What makes you think that the announcement list gets even
a fraction of the readers the questions list does.

Hell the questinos list gets enought junk post all ready,
what's the harm in posting such an inportment message to the
list to begin with, not doing so makes no sense at all.

Somebody messed up big time and now they have to deal with the
results of their stupid mistakes.

You core committer people have to break out of this
private club mentality thing you all adhere to.

The logo effects all users and as such we should have vote in the
matter.
What were you all thinking? This was a bad idea from the get go.


Just because core committer have the ability to write high level
code
does not give them the right to thumb your collective noses
at the rest of us users in the matter of needing a new logo.

In moving to an new legal status by forming the FreeBSD
foundation us users just look the other way just long as
the software stays free of cost and no new legal restraints
are imposed on the software use.

But changing the logo effects all users and sham on you
self righteous snobs to even think you have the right to
exclude the user community from the logo decision.

Get off your high horses and serve your users like your suppose to.


I think the new logo should be shit canned and the whole
question of replaceing the "beastie" logo brought up for
a general vote bye all members of all the Freebsd mailing lists.

Your negtave comments are foundless.
A public vote is not an logistical near-impossibility.
Hell just creating a special list to submit an email
to as your yes or not vote is a simple solution and other
solutions could be found one way or the other.

If you are insulted by my comments then I guess you
belong the self righteous snobs group and I dont care about you.

This is address the the users who like me are out raged by this.

If you dont like the new logo then lets make our combined voices
 make a differance by emailing the new foundation's forming members.




-Original Message-
From: Nick Withers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org


On Wed, 10 May 2006 08:13:24 -0400
"fbsd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As a long time reader of this list I did not see any
> announcement of it here.

That's because this is the freebsd-questions list. It was
announced on the freebsd-announce list. Y'know, the one where
announcements are made...

> Only after selection of the new logo was made was it
> talked about on this list People were very up set with it
> them and the ground swell over this has only gotten bigger.

Again, this is the freebsd-questions list. I don't really think
that this is actually the most appropriate place for discussion
of such things (and therefore I should probably apologise for
contributing to this lil' thread!).

> Loyal long time users are feeling insulted about being
> left out from the decision about the need for a new logo.
> A post in the archive give some lame reasons for a new logo
> which many people disagreed with even then but still the
> new legal FreeBSD foundation went ahead any how put it
> on the official website.
>
> I for one do not see an need to change the logo at all.

Perhaps not, but then again, this is why there's a core team to
make decisions for the project. Granted they're not elected by
every user who's ever heard the word "FreeBSD", but I can't
even begin to imagine the logistical near-impossibility this
would be.

Committers were given the chance to vote, and voted for the new
design (again, see http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/result/,
which also has a link to the archived original announcement
to freebsd-announce).

> I would say special effort was made to keep this whole
> new logo thing a secret from the general user population.

See above, it was announced very publically on the
freebsd-announce list.

(snip)

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:48 AM
> To: Kep Woof
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/05/2006 11:42:17:
>
> > hi,
> >
> > On 5/9/06, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PRO

Re: New FreeBSD Logo

[DAve]

fbsd wrote:

As a long time reader of this list I did not see any
announcement of it here. Only after selection of the
new logo was made was it talked about on this list.
People were very up set with it them and the ground
swell over this has only gotten bigger.


http://pixelhammer.com/aw_jeez.jpg

This has gone too far. Searching shows that the FreeBSD questions list 
had mention of this over a year ago.


http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/htdig/freebsd-questions/2005-February/076063.html

To be blunt about it, you and everyone else had their chance. My wife, a 
designer, knew FreeBSD had a logo contest and she wouldn't know FreeBSD 
from a martian if it were not for my T-shirt.


Anyone could have contributed. But like beta testing, most simply 
ignored the request to participate, preferring to wait until someone 
else did the hard work and made the tough decisions, then chose to bitch 
when the result was not want they wanted. It's apathy. Yea, I'm more 
than annoyed and this has been a long time coming.


How many people actually keep a development server running just to help 
open source developers test patches or updates, even when those patches 
and updates do not affect them?


How many donate to the souls who write the tools we use every day? Or do 
they just read the maillists when they need help, never offering to help 
others, and then get an attitude when the help they request doesn't 
arrive? A lot.


I constantly dog my employers to donate, let me have work time to help 
out on lists, purchase the books (Mailscanner and Rails) that help the 
developers, keep a development box for testing. They complain even 
though they could not compete in the market place had they been required 
to purchase licenses for all the software they use.


The Internet is the industry that open source built, and it has created 
a society of hand out junkies who think they should get everything their 
way, for free, right now.


This job isn't fun anymore.

DAve

--
This message was checked by forty monkeys and
found to not contain any SPAM whatsoever.

Your monkeys may vary
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Re: New freebsd logo on freebsd.org

[Bill Moran]

On Wed, 10 May 2006 13:49:20 +
"Kep Woof" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[snip]

> Take a look at the netbsd logo if you want to see how it's done.  It
> means something.  It's neat.  It represents the project.  What we (the
> users) seem to have ended up with is a fussy and unelegent logo that
> has nothing to do with anythin, save for a pair of post-modern ice
> cream cones harking back to beastie.

My brother went to school for graphic arts.  When the contest was
announced, we spend _several_weeks_ brainstorming, he and I, trying
to come up with something that looked as cool as the NetBSD logo, while
representing FreeBSD.

We finally gave up without making a submission.  The problem is that
NetBSD (and OpenBSD as well, for that matter) somehow have more culture
to them on the graphic arts side.  NetBSD has long had the image of
daemons raising the flag (mirroring the WWII photograph) which
translated nicely into a logo.  OpenBSD has long had the Blowfish,
which can be rendered a number of interesting ways.

And FreeBSD has what?  The Beastie ... but the Beastie is *BSD in
general, so what else is there ... ?

> The simple fact is, when you look at the new logo it only makes sense
> if you previously understand what it represents.  The effect is that
> it represents nothing in particular, which is why it fails so
> fantasically.  What are the key values of FreeBSD?  I'd guess
> something like Freedom, Stability, Robustness, quality.  Those values
> are not communicated in the new logo, and I think that's something
> that somebody with freebsd.org in their email address should seriously
> address.

You're exactly right.  Somebody other than you should take care of this.
This is everyone's fault but yours.  If you'd been in the loop from the
start, this never would have happened.  My goodness, why didn't we
consult you earlier ... you obviously have all the answers.

This is free software man, if you don't like it, fix it
yourself.  If you can't fix it, _ask_ someone else, or put up some
cash to pay someone who can.  But quit whining.

You are a Troll.  If you weren't a Troll, you'd have taken this to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead of staying on this
list.

Go use Microsoft, they pay professional graphic artists big bucks to
design their logos and their marketing materials, and you fund that
with your Windows license fees.

Or, _contribute_ something back to the wonderful free software
community other than a lengthy email thread of whining.

-- 
Bill Moran
Collaborative Fusion Inc.
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RE: New FreeBSD Logo

[fbsd]

The point being it was not  announced  on the questions list.
The point being the logo affects all the users just not the core
committers.

Quite trying to make a non-subject out of something that effects us
all.
The official logo represents all of us users to the world as a
whole.

Cant you get that through your collectives heads.

How dare you be little this subject.

Maybe you are to close to the internal FreeBSD business to be able
to see
the turn meaning of what changing the logo means to the users.

Maybe now is the time to ask the list if that want to vote on
keeping the new logo? Or on if a new logo is wanted at all?




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jerry
McAllister
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:25 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Beech Rintoul;
Chad
Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Subject: Re: New FreeBSD Logo


>
> As a long time reader of this list I did not see any
> announcement of it here. Only after selection of the
> new logo was made was it talked about on this list.
> People were very up set with it them and the ground
> swell over this has only gotten bigger.

It was clearly announced with dates and how to make submissions
and all and then the closure of the submissions was announced.
There was a lot of griping on the list about why bother and
such, but not much real objection until the robo-beastie - or
would it be space-beastie - was chosen.

Though I am not fond of the new thing, it is not because the process
of acquiring it was not announced.   I do think there was a failure
to get better input on the candidates after submissions were made.
The process, or lack thereof, of selecting was rather lame.

> Loyal long time users are feeling insulted about being
> left out from the decision about the need for a new logo.

They were not left out, except by their own choice of not making
any submission.

> A post in the archive give some lame reasons for a new logo
> which many people disagreed with even then but still the
> new legal FreeBSD foundation went ahead any how putting it
> on the official website removing the "beastie" logo.
>
> I for one do not see any need to change the logo at all.
> It's just as professional as the "penguin".
>
> I would say special effort was made to keep this whole
> new logo thing a secret from the general user population.

Nope, it was well publicized.

> That also goes for the formation of the new legal FreeBSD
> foundation.
> Not a word of it happening on this list until it was a done deal.
> You can see from this thread just how big a stink this is making.

Many words were posted.

> Lets point the finger at the real reason for the new logo.
> As part of the new legal FreeBSD foundation, the people who
> set it up though it's better to own the complete legal rights
> to the logo. The "beastie" logo legal rights is owned by
> an individual. So being pressed for time they choose to keep it
> off the questions list and pushed it through selecting what
> ever logo they had just to meet the filing dead line for
> the new legal FreeBSD foundation formation.

Maybe, who knows.

>
> For those of you who think this subject is flame bait,
> YOU ARE WHY THIS NEW LOGO IDEA WAS EVEN ABLE TO GET OFF
> THE GROUND IN THE FIRST PLACE.
>
> Sham on you, shut your pie hole.

That was unnecessary and adds nothing to the discussion.

> I want to know the email addresses of the people in control of
> the new foundation and everyone on this list who does not like
> the new logo  and/or the way in which it was forced upon us
> should email them to voice our dissatisfaction directly to them.
> Because its obvious posting on this list has no effect or value
> in determining what happens to the legal FreeBSD organization
> and thus the logo used to represent us.

> If you want your voice in this matter to be effective you have
> to email those in legal control of the FreeBSD foundation.
> It's time they stop hiding and become accountable for
> their stupid collective actions.

Use whatever logo you want.
Give up trash talking.

> Its time the FreeBSD foundation offer an binding vote by the
general
> user population from all the FreeBSD lists to settle this question
> once and for all about the "beastie" logo being the
> official FreeBSD foundation logo. This even includes our brothers
> and sisters in other countries who have their own FreeBSD.org
> websites and don't even know about this logo problem yet.

There never has been a binding vote on anything outside of possibly
the core group.   Why would a dumb piece of graphics need it.
You are missing something.

jerry

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