Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Ron, You're a talented artist. Have you found a way to keep 'making art' in your life? Marsha On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:09 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Hokey pokey code of art: Left foot in Left foot out Left foot in Shake it all about Or The dirty Sanchez code of art: In Out Swish left Swish right ? So few appreciate art Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 4:08 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: wabi-sabi code of art: a giant firefly, that way, this way, that way, this --- and it passes by. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] Best Wishes for the New Year.
Greetings, Wishing you all the very best of everything in 2014. Happy New Year! Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
wabi-sabi code of art: a giant firefly, that way, this way, that way, this --- and it passes by. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan, On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Yes. Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context. Are you equating 'meaning' and intellectual patterns? If we used binary code in a cultural setting then the above [binary code] represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s. Is that your story and you're sticking to it? Those ones and zeros have meaning for me because they are a translation of a particular sentence I used as input into a binary translator. Groups of any sequence of eight 1s and 0s _suggest_ meaning to me, even if I don't know that meaning, because I have a distant recollection (experience) of their having meaning. That's my pattern (social or intellectual) and I am hypothetically sticking to it. Taking a book and making a work of art from it changes the intellectual value, wouldn't you say? Yes the context has changed, but I am not sure how you are understanding intellectual value? Gosh, I'm not sure computers still use those ones zeros as on off switches, but I do know that this particular series can be translated into a sentence with meaning. It's sort of like a kidnapper cutting letters from ads and pasting them together to form a ransom note. The meaning is there but it has been changed from its original intent. From my particular point-of-view, the context is always changing, sometimes changing more radically than others. It's all grist for the art mill. Marsha On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:58 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Goodbye Dan. On Dec 28, 2013, at 7:58 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 3:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Yes. Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context. Are you equating 'meaning' and intellectual patterns? Definition, meaning, ideas... they all seem to correlate to intellectual patterns, wouldn't you say? If we used binary code in a cultural setting then the above [binary code] represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s. Is that your story and you're sticking to it? It isn't a story. Those ones and zeros have meaning for me because they are a translation of a particular sentence I used as input into a binary translator. Groups of any sequence of eight 1s and 0s _suggest_ meaning to me, even if I don't know that meaning, because I have a distant recollection (experience) of their having meaning. That's my pattern (social or intellectual) and I am hypothetically sticking to it. The movement of birds and ants _suggest_ meaning to me too even though I don't know that meaning. You seem to be arguing for nothing more than the sake of argument. Taking a book and making a work of art from it changes the intellectual value, wouldn't you say? Yes the context has changed, but I am not sure how you are understanding intellectual value? Gosh, I'm not sure computers still use those ones zeros as on off switches, but I do know that this particular series can be translated into a sentence with meaning. Isn't that what I said? It's sort of like a kidnapper cutting letters from ads and pasting them together to form a ransom note. The meaning is there but it has been changed from its original intent. From my particular point-of-view, the context is always changing, sometimes changing more radically than others. It's all grist for the art mill. Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Obviously having a discussion here is a waste of time. Goodbye. Marsha On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:58 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha On Dec 27, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: She seems like an interesting woman who led a full life though her writing style is not quite my cup of tea. Doing a bit of research I see William James was one of her teachers and mentors. He encouraged her writings though apparently they were never quite on the same page, so to speak. Thank you for the reference. I would say words always have meaning, otherwise they're gibberish. Now, whether or not they convey the intended meaning is questionable if taken out of context. Also, I think the MOQ would say we are continually defining not only words but all static patterns that arise from experience. You may want to define 'writing.' I for one am not particularly captivated by the German language though I do from time to time use Google Translator to discover what someone is trying to say to me. On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 8:20 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Sound sight and sense around sound by sight with sense around by with sound sight sense will apologise truthfully. Com to allowing. As often as not as often as not they as often as not were to be going away. A plan that is made and causes it to be that if they were after all not behaving as if they could by an indifference to an extravagantly prepared advantage which is by nearly their importance advising them to be more than as well as if by the time that it is to be comparatively obtained in an intentional adjustment of the renewal and bestowal of whether by the chance of their adjoining they may be colliding without an impatience which can be changed to an addition of their bestowal which is in a way might it be shadowed as because of this which is an objection to their having it can be an interval of it just the same which is preferably not only a reason because they may be that is if it could be to notice that having looked to see. It should never be an exact copy. What is the difference between starting and starting when may they like it looking part of the time as if very much their hope that they will be without in the meantime furnishing it as an advantage which it is to the more delighted explanation of their being very ready to send very many apples. (Stein, Gertrude, 'How to Write') Marsha: Very dynamic, don't you think? Fitting of the code of art? Too dynamic? This is from the chapter titled 'A Vocabulary of Thinking'. Ms. Stein was a very clever intellectual. Some would say far far more clever than Joyce, but, alas, a woman. Her writing was extremely influential on the Beat writers. I am wondering how these torn pages of words will be experienced in a collage. Do words, without meaning, affect the viewer? Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try to discover a meaning? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Greetings, Sound sight and sense around sound by sight with sense around by with sound sight sense will apologise truthfully. Com to allowing. As often as not as often as not they as often as not were to be going away. A plan that is made and causes it to be that if they were after all not behaving as if they could by an indifference to an extravagantly prepared advantage which is by nearly their importance advising them to be more than as well as if by the time that it is to be comparatively obtained in an intentional adjustment of the renewal and bestowal of whether by the chance of their adjoining they may be colliding without an impatience which can be changed to an addition of their bestowal which is in a way might it be shadowed as because of this which is an objection to their having it can be an interval of it just the same which is preferably not only a reason because they may be that is if it could be to notice that having looked to see. It should never be an exact copy. What is the difference between starting and starting when may they like it looking part of the time as if very much their hope that they will be without in the meantime furnishing it as an advantage which it is to the more delighted explanation of their being very ready to send very many apples. (Stein, Gertrude, 'How to Write') Marsha: Very dynamic, don't you think? Fitting of the code of art? Too dynamic? This is from the chapter titled 'A Vocabulary of Thinking'. Ms. Stein was a very clever intellectual. Some would say far far more clever than Joyce, but, alas, a woman. Her writing was extremely influential on the Beat writers. I am wondering how these torn pages of words will be experienced in a collage. Do words, without meaning, affect the viewer? Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try to discover a meaning? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Yes, but it feels different to have the character from inside the novel speak the words and the author making a statement about the work in relation to his own experience as one aspect of that split personality. But not to worry, I understand it is all story. Yes, from a grownup Dan's point of view, the accusation of plagiarism might seem flattering, but it was not encouraging to a youngster. Yet here you are writing novels. Doubt if it could have been any other way. I didn't start painting seriously until 1998 after a summer in Italy, but I loved it all. I took 4 years of classical guitar lessons. When that didn't work out, I quickly switched to art: book arts, collaging, printmaking. All started after the age of thirty and all very satisfying. In 1998 I left Corporate-IT position to learn to paint. You asked about teachers, and I'll say there were no specific art teachers, but there were important people who taught life lessons. Important in the list is RMP because of his explanation of gumption traps. Having them explained could be equated to the naming of Rumpelstiltskin. What a boon! But there were many others, especially my second husband who was a wonderful classical guitar player. On Dec 22, 2013, at 3:16 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't Phaedrus tell Chris the same thing late in ZMM? `Were you really insane?'' Why should he ask that? No! Astonishment hits. But Chris's eyes sparkle. `Ì knew it,'' he says. [ZMM] Lila's Child came about on account of my love for writing. Robert Pirsig inspired me years ago when I read ZMM while his assistance with LC made me realize what I was missing by not writing. I wish I could say I had teachers who inspired me as well. I cannot. I was a poor student. The closest any of them ever got to praising my writings was to accuse me of plagiarism. It upset me at the time but now I look back and say: wow. They honestly thought my writing was that good that I must have copied it from somewhere. What about you? What inspired you to start painting? Did you always fancy doing it? Or was there a defining moment in your life when you knew you were meant to paint? On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:30 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, From my very limited experience, I'd say that the pre-static (before fear and thinking) response is always to give 150%, but that is not very advantageous for the survival of the self in dangerous situations. I did later notice that from the intensity of the incident, all the thoughts that had been floating through my mind that morning vacated. Gone! It made me laugh at myself! I will get the details concerning the driver some time this weekend, but from what I could see, they were very fortunate to have survived. Outside the line is where the best stuff happens. I recently reread RMP's introduction to the twenty-fifth anniversary edition of ZAMM. He said Phaedrus was never insane. Outside the line is where all the creative stuff happens, but it is extremely dangerous. It surprised me that both Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg did a stint in a hospital for schizophrenia. Tough times, indeed! I had my moments of insanity, but love and responsibility to my children always kept me in check. But now I feel free to fly, and do so in my studio. Not as dangerous as flying over an un-netted sea like Icarus. My studio is my favorite place to be. Do you think that your sister being a writer offered you permission to go back to that childhood longing to be a writer. And there was 'LILA's Child', that must have stirred the juices. Did you get assistance from others? I had helpers get me back to making art, and I am grateful to them. Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Yes, it is interesting. Very! Sensitive, introverted, philosophically-minded intellectuals may be more aware of the conflict between intellectual and social values, and it can initially be quite a shock. But eventually that shock may subside and ... mountains are once more mountains and waters are waters. The first book I've ripped pages from for my art journaling is 'How To Write' by Gertrude Stein. How well will the words and sentence represent a text that is not meant to be read? Drawing outside the line is about confusion, wouldn't you say? At this point, the project is total confusion. What will happen next? What do suppose others do? On Dec 22, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: I just re-read the intro to the 25th edition and from what I gather, Robert Pirsig the author is using Phaedrus to say he (the narrator?) was never insane. We can see that in ZMM from the quote I offered where the dialogue between Chris and 'Phaedrus' only has quotes around the words of Chris. He uses the same quote, in fact. It's also interesting that he mentions reading Henry James' The Turn of the Screw and how he mistook the villainous for the heroine of the story. Like he says, I too think that story accentuates both the strength and weakness of the first person narrative and why so many authors fail at it. It is much easier writing from the third person point of view which is perhaps why that method is the predominate way of writing these days. First person is much more intimate yet the author (and the reader) is trapped inside the character. One way of overcoming that is to write from the point of view of different characters as he does in Lila. Of course the author has to take care in doing so lest they confuse the reader... chapter breaks are best in my opinion. Anyway, interesting stuff... On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 10:29 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Yes, but it feels different to have the character from inside the novel speak the words and the author making a statement about the work in relation to his own experience as one aspect of that split personality. But not to worry, I understand it is all story. Yes, from a grownup Dan's point of view, the accusation of plagiarism might seem flattering, but it was not encouraging to a youngster. Yet here you are writing novels. Doubt if it could have been any other way. I didn't start painting seriously until 1998 after a summer in Italy, but I loved it all. I took 4 years of classical guitar lessons. When that didn't work out, I quickly switched to art: book arts, collaging, printmaking. All started after the age of thirty and all very satisfying. In 1998 I left Corporate-IT position to learn to paint. You asked about teachers, and I'll say there were no specific art teachers, but there were important people who taught life lessons. Important in the list is RMP because of his explanation of gumption traps. Having them explained could be equated to the naming of Rumpelstiltskin. What a boon! But there were many others, especially my second husband who was a wonderful classical guitar player. snip... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] Yule (December 21)
Celebrated on the winter solstice, Yule is a Wiccan holiday marking the death of the Sun-God and his rebirth from the Earth Goddess. Joy to all!! Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
that possibility. We believe if we are good and righteous that goodness and righteousness will follow us the rest of our days and we'll die comfortably in our sleep, old and worn out, with our loving family there beside us, not homeless and alone. Anyway... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:11 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, While inspiring a collage of different experiences, I find 'Butterfly Picnic' to be a little gem. I really like it. *That the woman was watching, but not seeing*. Such a familiar mystery! Your explanation is also interesting from several different angles. - Drawing outside the lines is an interesting metaphor. There is the dependence on the lines to be able to experience the freedom of moving away from them. And didn't your sister draw outside the line by taking you to the museum? Yesterday was an interesting day. It was very busy. My last stop was at the grocery store to shop for food for the weekend. I live two miles from the store and was driving home when I witnessed a very bad accident. The oncoming driver was not killed, but it was very dramatic. I saw the car lose control, hit many guard tails, take flight and twist through the air over an embankment to land right-side up in a gulch. It was surreal. Of course I stopped to help, but more experienced men arrived almost immediately. There was only the driver who was conscious and talking, but trapped in the car. Since I was one of two witnesses, I stayed to offer my name and explanation to the police. What had I watched? What did I see? The whole tenor of the day changed in a few moments, certainly for the driver, but also for this witness. I am still shocked how quickly and dramatically things seem to change. Marsha snip... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
it right, but how did van Gogh know? How do storytellers know? What about the musicians and the poets and the beauty they produce? Where does it come from? A Butterfly Picnic means much more to me than a story about a girl lying naked on a blanket in the sun and being ogled by a dirty old man. The creek water flowing past, the butterflies dancing in the breeze, the food and drink, even the blanket... they all combine to lend an air of majesty to the mundane. That is perhaps what van Gogh meant by painting a simple iris. He must have studied the iris, how it moved, how it grew, how it unfurled itself to the sun, and how it died. He must have become the iris in a real sense. In the same way, by writing the stories that I write, I study the characters. I watch and learn how they walk and talk, how they interact with the world. I might write ten thousand words just learning who they are and what they do. Finally, I become the characters. It is only then that I can attempt in my own small way to bring them to life the same way van Gogh brought that iris to life. He imbued it with a type of immortality... its beauty reaches across the years to enlighten others to the possibilities of madness and insanity. Now, I don't mean to imply I am anywhere close to the artist that van Gogh was. I am an imposter. The Code of Art whispers its secrets to me and though I try to represent those mysteries the best I can, I am but a poor substitute for a real artist. I am like a child coloring with his crayons and doing his best to stay within the prescribed lines yet failing at every effort to do so. Anyway... On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:40 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: An amazing favorite from 2007: A Butterfly Picnic Clumps of small white butterflies with black eyeballs on their wings dance in spiraling circles along the creek. A woman is watching the butterflies play but she isn't seeing them. She sits on a green and white plaid blanket. Along side her a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine poke up out of a brown woven basket. Sunshine tingles over her naked body. A breeze rustles the cattails growing in shallow water beside the creek bank and tickles the grass growing around her blanket. A long unused train trestle runs over the rippling water just a short distance away. Mottled-gray stones at its base are crumbling. A man sits on the trestle on a ledge near the top close by a metal ladder driven into the weathered stone blocks. The woman takes the bread and breaks it, reveling in finding the soft underneath through the crisp crust. She pours the wine. Raising the glass to her lips she looks up to see the man watching her. She starts but quickly remembers that he has always been there. She watches the butterflies play but she isn't seeing them. On Dec 20, 2013, at 12:16 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know if my giving away a few books has anything to do with emptying my teacup but perhaps. I got the idea from World Book Day where they enlist others in an attempt to give away a million books. I thought, why not give away a few of my own instead of those of other authors? I never much cared for the term 'flash fiction' as it seems to accentuate speed over quality. I don't need writing prompts nor do I wait for inspiration to arise. I just write. Whether my stories are amazing or not, I don't know. I appreciate you saying so although the way you put it has me ensconced in the past. I am still deeply involved with my writings on a daily basis. As always, I am happy to send you (or anyone here) an e-copy of my latest work if you so desire. People ask me where my ideas for my stories come from. I don't know. I sit down in front of my computer to an empty screen and a blank mind and in a little while it is full of words. Most of it is crap but sometimes I discover a few pearls amid the swill. Anyway... On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:25 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan Ian and all, I can identify. Have you any idea how many paintings I've dropped off at Goodwill hoping they'd find someone to appreciate them. Clean slate, emptying teacup, or just plain making room for more. Cannot really complain, though, I love every moment in my studio. So on to making some art journals. Knowing how frustrating these MD discussions can be, I miss you both. Dan, your stories - flash fiction? - were always amazing. And, ian, I thought Grayson Perry had some important things to discuss. AND for goodness sake, isn't it about making art out of life??? Maybe to start the year discussing the code of art might be a good thing. Marsha On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen
[MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
And for LILA there will be created 'The Lila Journal'. On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
And to celebrate 10 years at the MD, 'MD: Metaphysician Heal Thyself'. The theme might be how character building it has been to hangout cybernetically with a bunch of intellectually- minded, zen men. I can use RMP quotes and bits pieces of MD dialogue. Indeed, some of the dialogue has been great, others not so great. The juxtaposition: pricelesss! Ahh Luna,,, still quite full... On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:19 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: And for LILA there will be created 'The Lila Journal'. On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan Ian and all, I can identify. Have you any idea how many paintings I've dropped off at Goodwill hoping they'd find someone to appreciate them. Clean slate, emptying teacup, or just plain making room for more. Cannot really complain, though, I love every moment in my studio. So on to making some art journals. Knowing how frustrating these MD discussions can be, I miss you both. Dan, your stories - flash fiction? - were always amazing. And, ian, I thought Grayson Perry had some important things to discuss. AND for goodness sake, isn't it about making art out of life??? Maybe to start the year discussing the code of art might be a good thing. Marsha On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
An amazing favorite from 2007: A Butterfly Picnic Clumps of small white butterflies with black eyeballs on their wings dance in spiraling circles along the creek. A woman is watching the butterflies play but she isn't seeing them. She sits on a green and white plaid blanket. Along side her a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine poke up out of a brown woven basket. Sunshine tingles over her naked body. A breeze rustles the cattails growing in shallow water beside the creek bank and tickles the grass growing around her blanket. A long unused train trestle runs over the rippling water just a short distance away. Mottled-gray stones at its base are crumbling. A man sits on the trestle on a ledge near the top close by a metal ladder driven into the weathered stone blocks. The woman takes the bread and breaks it, reveling in finding the soft underneath through the crisp crust. She pours the wine. Raising the glass to her lips she looks up to see the man watching her. She starts but quickly remembers that he has always been there. Sh e watches the butterflies play but she isn't seeing them. On Dec 20, 2013, at 12:16 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know if my giving away a few books has anything to do with emptying my teacup but perhaps. I got the idea from World Book Day where they enlist others in an attempt to give away a million books. I thought, why not give away a few of my own instead of those of other authors? I never much cared for the term 'flash fiction' as it seems to accentuate speed over quality. I don't need writing prompts nor do I wait for inspiration to arise. I just write. Whether my stories are amazing or not, I don't know. I appreciate you saying so although the way you put it has me ensconced in the past. I am still deeply involved with my writings on a daily basis. As always, I am happy to send you (or anyone here) an e-copy of my latest work if you so desire. People ask me where my ideas for my stories come from. I don't know. I sit down in front of my computer to an empty screen and a blank mind and in a little while it is full of words. Most of it is crap but sometimes I discover a few pearls amid the swill. Anyway... On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:25 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan Ian and all, I can identify. Have you any idea how many paintings I've dropped off at Goodwill hoping they'd find someone to appreciate them. Clean slate, emptying teacup, or just plain making room for more. Cannot really complain, though, I love every moment in my studio. So on to making some art journals. Knowing how frustrating these MD discussions can be, I miss you both. Dan, your stories - flash fiction? - were always amazing. And, ian, I thought Grayson Perry had some important things to discuss. AND for goodness sake, isn't it about making art out of life??? Maybe to start the year discussing the code of art might be a good thing. Marsha On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Speaking of Goodwill, off she went to find a copy of a dictionary to enable collaging those important definitions like static, dynamic, value and troll. She could hardly wait for the joy of ripping and gluing those thin, paper pieces onto her journal page. Laying the book onto the work space it serendipitously opened to the page containing l-o-v-e. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] December 13, 1859
Hi Joe, There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception” (Aldous Huxley) Marsha On Dec 16, 2013, at 4:27 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All, IMHO emotions are indefinable. Definition does not describe a totality for emotion. E.G. Love. DQ/SQ metaphysics and emotions are bedfellows. Joe On 12/15/13 4:49 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Joe, Do the emotions that you sometimes write about come before perceptions and conceptions? Marsha On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:50 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All; If a man is not in a mood what is he in? I wish I were not alive? The heavens above the earth are the epitome of unknown reality. I am sure curiosity has meaning in individuality. 1 is lazy and reacts to 2. AHHH life! Joe On 12/13/13 8:57 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: But how long can a man be in a mood to watch the heavens? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] December 13, 1859
Hi Joe, Do the emotions that you sometimes write about come before perceptions and conceptions? Marsha On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:50 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All; If a man is not in a mood what is he in? I wish I were not alive? The heavens above the earth are the epitome of unknown reality. I am sure curiosity has meaning in individuality. 1 is lazy and reacts to 2. AHHH life! Joe On 12/13/13 8:57 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: But how long can a man be in a mood to watch the heavens? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] December 13, 1859
December 13, 1859 P. M. - On river to Fair Haven Pond. My first true winter walk is perhaps that which I take on the river, or where I cannot go in the summer. It is the walk peculiar to winter, and now first I take it. I see that the fox too has already taken the same walk before me, just along the edge of the button-bushes, where not even he can go in the summer. We both turn our steps hither at the same time. There is now, at 2:30 P. M., the melon-rind arrangement of the clouds. Really parallel columns of fine mackerel sky, reaching quite across the heavens from west to east, with clear intervals of blue sky, and a fine-grained vapor like spun glass extending in the same direction beneath the former. In half an hour all this mackerel sky is gone. What an ever-changing scene is the sky with its drifting cirrhus and stratus! The spectators are not requested to take a recess of fifteen minutes while the scene changes, but, walking commonly with our faces to the earth, our thoughts revert to other objects, and as often as we look up the scene has changed. Now, I see, it is a column of white vapor reaching quite across the sky, from west to east, with locks of fine hair, or tow that is carded, combed out on each side, - surprising touches here and there, which show a peculiar state of the atmosphere. No doubt the best weather-signs are in these forms which the vapor takes. When I next look up, the locks of hair are perfect fir trees with their recurved branches. (These trees extend at right angles from the side of the main column.) This appearance is changed all over the sky in one minute. Again it is pieces of asbestos, or the vapor takes the curved form of the surf or breakers, and again of flames. But how long can a man be in a mood to watch the heavens? http://hdt.typepad.com/henrys_blog/2011/12/december-13-1859.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Joe, I consider metaphysics to be a conceptual model of reality. Can we agree on this point? Marsha p.s. For those who are Door fans, I hope you've watched 'The Doors: Mr. Mojo Risin': The Story of L.A. Woman'. On youtube: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EYigFBVNwXU On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and all, Love does not grow from a feeling perspective. Love flows from metaphysical individuality. I am alone! Feeling, idea, decision all participate in the growing love for individuality. You Know, like: By this will all men know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. Imho Joe On 12/11/13 3:43 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Feel it in your fingers, feel it in your toes Love is all around you and so the feeling grows It is written on the wind, it's everywhere you go So if you really love me, come on and let it show On Dec 10, 2013, at 3:36 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and all, I suppose idiosyncrasies are discernable. For the discernment of reality by an individual sentient DQ/SQ is a proper format. I experience the indefinable. How is that possible? SOM based in definition is inadequate to describe social indefinable reality. There is no logical argument in defined words able to discern the indefinable/individual being in reality. DQ perception is the ball to run with. DQ/SQ indefinable/definable base for knowledge. Pirsig realized that the existence of an indefinable is still discernable! DQ individuality is known beyond definition. DQ is observed in the experience of individuality and 1 follows. The reality of the individual is DQ/SQ metaphysical reality. Words used for the communication of individuality are indefinable and difficult to argue in reality. Metaphysics! Joe On 12/10/13 12:51 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: We are suspended in language, and your posts are suspended in your particular idiosyncrasies. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Feel it in your fingers, feel it in your toes Love is all around you and so the feeling grows It is written on the wind, it's everywhere you go So if you really love me, come on and let it show On Dec 10, 2013, at 3:36 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and all, I suppose idiosyncrasies are discernable. For the discernment of reality by an individual sentient DQ/SQ is a proper format. I experience the indefinable. How is that possible? SOM based in definition is inadequate to describe social indefinable reality. There is no logical argument in defined words able to discern the indefinable/individual being in reality. DQ perception is the ball to run with. DQ/SQ indefinable/definable base for knowledge. Pirsig realized that the existence of an indefinable is still discernable! DQ individuality is known beyond definition. DQ is observed in the experience of individuality and 1 follows. The reality of the individual is DQ/SQ metaphysical reality. Words used for the communication of individuality are indefinable and difficult to argue in reality. Metaphysics! Joe On 12/10/13 12:51 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: We are suspended in language, and your posts are suspended in your particular idiosyncrasies. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] fact
Say something about intuition. On Dec 10, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Richard Skillen skillen.rich...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Value rigidity is the unwillingness to change our static constructs from experience. I see facts arising from the logical deductions of our experience derived intuition. Static yet malleable. Regards, Richard On 10 Dec 2013, at 08:30, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, If you think reading of the monkey trap analogy is enough to verify it as a fact drawn from experience, we are far from agreement. The monkey trap analogy is a supposed explanation of value rigidity. I accept it hypothetically as an apt explanation. By the way, here is the dictionary definition I use for hypothetical: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/hypothetical?region=usq=Hypothetical Marsha --- On Dec 9, 2013, at 10:13 PM, X Acto xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: In the most basic sense, a fact is a verifiable observation or experience, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. --- Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: It is drawn from the experience of Reading the pirsig quote , --- Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases On Dec 6, 2013, at 7:12 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, And? Was the analogy of the monkey with its hand caught in the coconut drawn from any kind of fact that you experienced? How are you defining a fact and is the interpretation of facts subject to cognitive biases (stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments to the past). I think it best to consider static patterns of value (stuff in the encyclopedia) as hypothetical. Of course the requires paying attention. Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] fact
Ron, If you think reading of the monkey trap analogy is enough to verify it as a fact drawn from experience, we are far from agreement. The monkey trap analogy is a supposed explanation of value rigidity. I accept it hypothetically as an apt explanation. By the way, here is the dictionary definition I use for hypothetical: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/hypothetical?region=usq=Hypothetical Marsha --- On Dec 9, 2013, at 10:13 PM, X Acto xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: In the most basic sense, a fact is a verifiable observation or experience, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. --- Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: It is drawn from the experience of Reading the pirsig quote , --- Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases On Dec 6, 2013, at 7:12 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, And? Was the analogy of the monkey with its hand caught in the coconut drawn from any kind of fact that you experienced? How are you defining a fact and is the interpretation of facts subject to cognitive biases (stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments to the past). I think it best to consider static patterns of value (stuff in the encyclopedia) as hypothetical. Of course the requires paying attention. Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Hi Joe, I think of most of your posts as a Rorschach test. It's sometimes fun to respond, but mostly I don't understand your point. We are suspended in language, and your posts are suspended in your particular idiosyncrasies. Marsha On Dec 9, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV, Negation, not this not that, cannot locate the reality of dynamic quality. Reality requires a positive assertion in existence. Reality does not exist in the throat of negation. I.E., nothing. Negation only clears away debris for the understanding of DQ. The reality of Existence is questioned in the negative duality of SOM, not this not that!. The reality of indefinable DQ quality is not a negative term. DQ an indefinable limit of cognition passes through positive, indefinably existing reality, creation, not nothing. IMHO Joe On 12/9/13 1:38 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: No, I think I will stay with Dynamic Quality as not this, not that. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] fact
Just for clarification, Ron. As said, I have no need for you to adopt my view. On Dec 10, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: And? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 10, 2013, at 3:30 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, If you think the reading of the monkey trap analogy is enough to verify it as a fact drawn from experience, we are far from agreement. The monkey trap analogy is a supposed explanation of value rigidity. I accept it hypothetically as an apt explanation. By the way, here is the dictionary definition I use for hypothetical: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/hypothetical?region=usq=Hypothetical Marsha --- On Dec 9, 2013, at 10:13 PM, X Acto xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: In the most basic sense, a fact is a verifiable observation or experience, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. --- Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: It is drawn from the experience of Reading the pirsig quote , --- Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases On Dec 6, 2013, at 7:12 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, And? Was the analogy of the monkey with its hand caught in the coconut drawn from any kind of fact that you experienced? How are you defining a fact and is the interpretation of facts subject to cognitive biases (stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments to the past). I think it best to consider static patterns of value (stuff in the encyclopedia) as hypothetical. Of course the requires paying attention. Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Hi Joe, The perception of DQ? Do you mean Dynamic Quality as perceived by the senses: smell, sight, touch, taste, sound? Wouldn't that suggest a DQ differentiation between senses, a differentiation between sight and smell, for example? No, I think I will stay with Dynamic Quality as not this, not that. I addressed love in this quote by Henry David Thoreau: December 10, 1840 I discover a strange track in the snow, and learn that some migrating otter has made across from the river to the wood, by my yard and the smith’s shop, in the silence of the night. - I cannot but smile at my own wealth, when I am thus reminded that every chink and cranny of nature is full to overflowing. - That each instant is crowded full of great events. http://hdt.typepad.com/henrys_blog/2008/12/page/3/ --- It's full to overflowing. Imho. Maybe you experience love differently. Marsha On Dec 7, 2013, at 3:53 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All, DQ/SQ! DQ individuality explores cognitive biases, remaining indefinable. SQ static quality by definition will never stand alone in DQ individuality. The perception of DQ precedes definition. Love remains indefinable. Joe On 12/7/13 12:27 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: While the static is useful and human beings are dependent on such patterns, static patterns of value ARE the cognitive biases. What else could they be? Better not to get boxed into an either/or corner. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
On Dec 6, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2013, at 10:25 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: I think by 'value rigidity' RMP means, in the Buddhist sense, attachment. Ron: I would agree, but where I think RMP diverges from Buddhism Is how to overcome attachment , To me, he clearly states that the Intellectual skills of reflection, analysis and re-assessment Of current value patterns is Essential in this endeavor . Sure we all have a degree of bias In our thinking this is given, but What counts is the method and Intent of overcoming them. Marsha: There certainly is value in analysis, and I doubt that many Buddhists would disagree with this. Reflection, analysis and re-assessment has its place. But there is also great value in dropping all the preconceived, mechanical assumptions used in analysis to allow for 'spur of the moment' - the spontaneous - the fresh and new - the dynamic to emerge. When the prejudice against 'spur of the moment' Dynamic Quality is removed new worlds of reality open up. - LILA. While the static is useful and human beings are dependent on such patterns, static patterns of value ARE the cognitive biases. What else could the be? Better not to get boxed into an either/or corner. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Ron, On Dec 7, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2013, at 10:25 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: I think by 'value rigidity' RMP means, in the Buddhist sense, attachment. Ron: I would agree, but where I think RMP diverges from Buddhism Is how to overcome attachment , To me, he clearly states that the Intellectual skills of reflection, analysis and re-assessment Of current value patterns is Essential in this endeavor . Sure we all have a degree of bias In our thinking this is given, but What counts is the method and Intent of overcoming them. Marsha: There certainly is value in analysis, and I doubt that many Buddhists would disagree with this. Reflection, analysis and re-assessment has its place. But there is also great value in dropping all the preconceived, mechanical assumptions used in analysis to allow for 'spur of the moment' - the spontaneous - the fresh and new - the dynamic to emerge. When the prejudice against 'spur of the moment' Dynamic Quality is removed new worlds of reality open up. - LILA. While the static is useful and human beings are dependent on such patterns, static patterns of value ARE the cognitive biases. What else could the be? Better not to get boxed into an either/or corner. Ron: I don't think anyone would disagree That analysis must be grounded in Empirical experience but I hesitate to say that all static patterns are biases because Bias is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective and a refusal to even consider the possible merits of alternative points of view. Bias is a temperament or outlook Towards static patterns. It is an attitude towards what is known. But if you understand all knowledge as attachment and rigid And bias then overcoming value Rigidity knowledge would be To kill all intellect but it would Fail in solving low quality situations Such as the monkey trap, it would Fail to use reflection and analysis Because they too are bias and are Part of the rigidity to be overcome . That's why I would not assert that all Static patterns are cognitive biases. It certainly would box us into an either/or situation of throwing out The baby with the bath water. Marsha: Please remember I wrote Words have more than one meaning/connotation. Here is the is entry for 'bias' that I would choose: 2. a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Bias?s=t) And to extend my understanding, here is the entry for 'prejudice' that I would consider: 2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Prejudice?s=t) Marsha: So we differ in our understanding. Please remember that I also wrote that the static is useful and human beings are dependent on such patterns. Most of what you've presented in this post I do not relate to, and I have no need for you to adopt my view. Vive La Difference! Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Ron, Please ignore last email. I just upgrade to OS X Mavericks and the the system needs some adjustments. The last email was messed up. On Dec 7, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2013, at 10:25 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: I think by 'value rigidity' RMP means, in the Buddhist sense, attachment. Ron: I would agree, but where I think RMP diverges from Buddhism Is how to overcome attachment , To me, he clearly states that the Intellectual skills of reflection, analysis and re-assessment Of current value patterns is Essential in this endeavor . Sure we all have a degree of bias In our thinking this is given, but What counts is the method and Intent of overcoming them. Marsha: There certainly is value in analysis, and I doubt that many Buddhists would disagree with this. Reflection, analysis and re-assessment has its place. But there is also great value in dropping all the preconceived, mechanical assumptions used in analysis to allow for 'spur of the moment' - the spontaneous - the fresh and new - the dynamic to emerge. When the prejudice against 'spur of the moment' Dynamic Quality is removed new worlds of reality open up. - LILA. While the static is useful and human beings are dependent on such patterns, static patterns of value ARE the cognitive biases. What else could the be? Better not to get boxed into an either/or corner. Ron: I don't think anyone would disagree That analysis must be grounded in Empirical experience but I hesitate to say that all static patterns are biases because Bias is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective and a refusal to even consider the possible merits of alternative points of view. Bias is a temperament or outlook Towards static patterns. It is an attitude towards what is known. But if you understand all knowledge as attachment and rigid And bias then overcoming value Rigidity knowledge would be To kill all intellect but it would Fail in solving low quality situations Such as the monkey trap, it would Fail to use reflection and analysis Because they too are bias and are Part of the rigidity to be overcome . That's why I would not assert that all Static patterns are cognitive biases. It certainly would box us into an either/or situation of throwing out The baby with the bath water. Marsha: Please remember I wrote Words have more than one meaning/connotation. Here is the is entry for 'bias' that I would choose: 2. a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Bias?s=t) And to extend my meaning, here is the entry for 'prejudice' that I would consider: 2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Prejudice?s=t) Turtles all the way down... Please remember that I also wrote that the static is useful and human beings are dependent on such patterns. Most of what you've presented in this post I do not relate to, and I have no need for you to adopt my view. So we differ in our understanding. Vive La Difference! Marsha ___ ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Ron, And? Was the analogy of the monkey with its hand caught in the coconut drawn from any kind of fact that you experienced? How are you defining a fact and is the interpretation of facts subject to cognitive biases (stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments to the past). I think it best to consider static patterns of value (stuff in the encyclopedia) as hypothetical. Of course the requires paying attention. Marsha On Dec 6, 2013, at 6:00 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha , Of course the analogy is to Get a point across, that facts Exist in experience , facts are Not hypotheses. The hypothetical story was used To illustrate a point RMP was Making about value rigidityThere is a fact this monkey should know: if he opens his hand he's free. But how is he going to discover this fact? By removing the value rigidity that rates rice above freedom. How is he going to do that? Well, he should somehow try to slow down deliberately and go over ground that he has been over before and see if things he thought were important really were important Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:44 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, Okay, low value is low value, but how is using the monkey trap analogy not a hypothetical? Marsha On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:52 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Using the monkey trAp analogy, It would seem (to me) that there Is nothing hypothetical about being In a low quality environment/situation. The bias lies in the value rigidity. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:22 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hypothetical is a good approach, because as pattern recognition entities, we are susceptible to a HUGE list of cognitive biases: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Ron, I asked you how you were defining 'fact'. It is for you to answer. It is you who are squirming away. Analogy: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Analogy?s=t I think by 'value rigidity' RMP means, in the Buddhist sense, attachment. Marsha On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, It is drawn from the experience of Reading the pirsig quote , exactly What do you suppose RMP means When he uses the term fact? You are getting ridiculous trying to squirm away from the point of the Quote, what do you think pirsig meant by the monkey analogy? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2013, at 7:12 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, And? Was the analogy of the monkey with its hand caught in the coconut drawn from any kind of fact that you experienced? How are you defining a fact and is the interpretation of facts subject to cognitive biases (stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments to the past). I think it best to consider static patterns of value (stuff in the encyclopedia) as hypothetical. Of course the requires paying attention. Marsha On Dec 6, 2013, at 6:00 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha , Of course the analogy is to Get a point across, that facts Exist in experience , facts are Not hypotheses. The hypothetical story was used To illustrate a point RMP was Making about value rigidityThere is a fact this monkey should know: if he opens his hand he's free. But how is he going to discover this fact? By removing the value rigidity that rates rice above freedom. How is he going to do that? Well, he should somehow try to slow down deliberately and go over ground that he has been over before and see if things he thought were important really were important Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:44 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, Okay, low value is low value, but how is using the monkey trap analogy not a hypothetical? Marsha On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:52 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Using the monkey trAp analogy, It would seem (to me) that there Is nothing hypothetical about being In a low quality environment/situation. The bias lies in the value rigidity. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:22 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hypothetical is a good approach, because as pattern recognition entities, we are susceptible to a HUGE list of cognitive biases: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Ron, I do not understand your questions Please clarify. On Dec 6, 2013, at 9:33 AM, Ron Kulp wrote: Marsha, The topic is and always was What Bob Pirsig means, since You posted it originally I'd say The onus is on you, what were You trying to say with the quote? How does hypothetical relate To how RMP accounts for value Rigidity being overcome? Then I can make some valid Criticism. Right now I'm not Understanding how the two Relate in your interpretation. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:53 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, I asked you how you were defining 'fact'. It is for you to answer. It is you who are squirming away. Analogy: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Analogy?s=t I think by 'value rigidity' RMP means, in the Buddhist sense, attachment. Marsha On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, It is drawn from the experience of Reading the pirsig quote , exactly What do you suppose RMP means When he uses the term fact? You are getting ridiculous trying to squirm away from the point of the Quote, what do you think pirsig meant by the monkey analogy? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2013, at 7:12 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, And? Was the analogy of the monkey with its hand caught in the coconut drawn from any kind of fact that you experienced? How are you defining a fact and is the interpretation of facts subject to cognitive biases (stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments to the past). I think it best to consider static patterns of value (stuff in the encyclopedia) as hypothetical. Of course the requires paying attention. Marsha On Dec 6, 2013, at 6:00 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha , Of course the analogy is to Get a point across, that facts Exist in experience , facts are Not hypotheses. The hypothetical story was used To illustrate a point RMP was Making about value rigidityThere is a fact this monkey should know: if he opens his hand he's free. But how is he going to discover this fact? By removing the value rigidity that rates rice above freedom. How is he going to do that? Well, he should somehow try to slow down deliberately and go over ground that he has been over before and see if things he thought were important really were important Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:44 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, Okay, low value is low value, but how is using the monkey trap analogy not a hypothetical? Marsha On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:52 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Using the monkey trAp analogy, It would seem (to me) that there Is nothing hypothetical about being In a low quality environment/situation. The bias lies in the value rigidity. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:22 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hypothetical is a good approach, because as pattern recognition entities, we are susceptible to a HUGE list of cognitive biases: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] suffering
Is seems to more than opinion? On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:24 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: The topic of value rigidity Seems to rest on the concept Of facts. Not opinion or hypothesis. Reflection and reasoning from facts. Ego keeps us from being empirical . Causes us to make assumptions like Facts are just opinions. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:37 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: To me, this is the type of suffering the Buddha addressed. I keep wanting to go back to that analogy of fishing for facts. I can just see somebody asking with great frustration, ``Yes, but which facts do you fish for? There's got to be more to it than that.'' But the answer is that if you know which facts you're fishing for you're no longer fishing. You've caught them. I'm trying to think of a specific example. -- All kinds of examples from cycle maintenance could be given, but the most striking example of value rigidity I can think of is the old South Indian Monkey Trap, which depends on value rigidity for its effectiveness. The trap consists of a hollowed-out coconut chained to a stake. The coconut has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole. The hole is big enough so that the monkey's hand can go in, but too small for his fist with rice in it to come out. The monkey reaches in and is suddenly trapped...by nothing more than his own value rigidity. He can't revalue the rice. He cannot see that freedom without rice is more valuable than capture with it. The villagers are coming to get him and take him away. They're coming closer -- closer! -- now! What general advice...not specific advice...but what general a dv ice would you give the poor monkey in circumstances like this? Well, I think you might say exactly what I've been saying about value rigidity, with perhaps a little extra urgency. There is a fact this monkey should know: if he opens his hand he's free. But how is he going to discover this fact? By removing the value rigidity that rates rice above freedom. How is he going to do that? Well, he should somehow try to slow down deliberately and go over ground that he has been over before and see if things he thought were important really were important and, well, stop yanking and just stare at the coconut for a while. Before long he should get a nibble from a little fact wondering if he is interested in it. He should try to understand this fact not so much in terms of his big problem as for its own sake. That problem may not be as big as he thinks it is. That fact may not be as small as he thinks it is either. That's about all the general information you can give him. ... On the road now and talking about traps again. The next one is important. It's the internal gumption trap of ego. Ego isn't entirely separate from value rigidity but one of the many causes of it. If you have a high evaluation of yourself then your ability to recognize new facts is weakened. Your ego isolates you from the Quality reality. When the facts show that you've just goofed, you're not as likely to admit it. When false information makes you look good, you're likely to believe it. On any mechanical repair job ego comes in for rough treatment. You're always being fooled, you're always making mistakes, and a mechanic who has a big ego to defend is at a terrific disadvantage. If you know enough mechanics to think of them as a group, and your observations coincide with mine, I think you'll agree that mechanics tend to be rather modest and quiet. There are exceptions, but generally if they're not quiet and modest at first, the work seems to make them that way. And skeptical. Attentive, but skeptical, But not egoistic. There's no way to bullshit your way into looking good on a mechan i ca l repair job, except with someone who doesn't know what you're doing. -- I was going to say that the machine doesn't respond to your personality, but it does respond to your personality. It's just that the personality that it responds to is your real personality, the one that genuinely feels and reasons and acts, rather than any false, blown-up personality images your ego may conjure up. These false images are deflated so rapidly and completely you're bound to be very discouraged very soon if you've derived your gumption from ego rather than Quality. If modesty doesn't come easily or naturally to you, one way out of this trap is to fake the attitude of modesty anyway. If you just deliberately assume you're not much good, then your gumption gets a boost when the facts prove this assumption is correct. This way you can keep going until the time comes when the facts prove this assumption is incorrect. - ZAMM Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org
[MD] list of cognitive biases
Hypothetical is a good approach, because as pattern recognition entities, we are susceptible to a HUGE list of cognitive biases: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Greetings, Wiki (regular) also offers a HUGE list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Take two and feel humble in the morning... Marsha On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:22 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hypothetical is a good approach, because as pattern recognition entities, we are susceptible to a HUGE list of cognitive biases: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] list of cognitive biases
Ron, Okay, low value is low value, but how is using the monkey trap analogy not a hypothetical? Marsha On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:52 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Using the monkey trAp analogy, It would seem (to me) that there Is nothing hypothetical about being In a low quality environment/situation. The bias lies in the value rigidity. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:22 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hypothetical is a good approach, because as pattern recognition entities, we are susceptible to a HUGE list of cognitive biases: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] suffering
To me, this is the type of suffering the Buddha addressed. I keep wanting to go back to that analogy of fishing for facts. I can just see somebody asking with great frustration, ``Yes, but which facts do you fish for? There's got to be more to it than that.'' But the answer is that if you know which facts you're fishing for you're no longer fishing. You've caught them. I'm trying to think of a specific example. -- All kinds of examples from cycle maintenance could be given, but the most striking example of value rigidity I can think of is the old South Indian Monkey Trap, which depends on value rigidity for its effectiveness. The trap consists of a hollowed-out coconut chained to a stake. The coconut has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole. The hole is big enough so that the monkey's hand can go in, but too small for his fist with rice in it to come out. The monkey reaches in and is suddenly trapped...by nothing more than his own value rigidity. He can't revalue the rice. He cannot see that freedom without rice is more valuable than capture with it. The villagers are coming to get him and take him away. They're coming closer -- closer! -- now! What general advice...not specific advice...but what general adv ice would you give the poor monkey in circumstances like this? Well, I think you might say exactly what I've been saying about value rigidity, with perhaps a little extra urgency. There is a fact this monkey should know: if he opens his hand he's free. But how is he going to discover this fact? By removing the value rigidity that rates rice above freedom. How is he going to do that? Well, he should somehow try to slow down deliberately and go over ground that he has been over before and see if things he thought were important really were important and, well, stop yanking and just stare at the coconut for a while. Before long he should get a nibble from a little fact wondering if he is interested in it. He should try to understand this fact not so much in terms of his big problem as for its own sake. That problem may not be as big as he thinks it is. That fact may not be as small as he thinks it is either. That's about all the general information you can give him. ... On the road now and talking about traps again. The next one is important. It's the internal gumption trap of ego. Ego isn't entirely separate from value rigidity but one of the many causes of it. If you have a high evaluation of yourself then your ability to recognize new facts is weakened. Your ego isolates you from the Quality reality. When the facts show that you've just goofed, you're not as likely to admit it. When false information makes you look good, you're likely to believe it. On any mechanical repair job ego comes in for rough treatment. You're always being fooled, you're always making mistakes, and a mechanic who has a big ego to defend is at a terrific disadvantage. If you know enough mechanics to think of them as a group, and your observations coincide with mine, I think you'll agree that mechanics tend to be rather modest and quiet. There are exceptions, but generally if they're not quiet and modest at first, the work seems to make them that way. And skeptical. Attentive, but skeptical, But not egoistic. There's no way to bullshit your way into looking good on a mechanica l repair job, except with someone who doesn't know what you're doing. -- I was going to say that the machine doesn't respond to your personality, but it does respond to your personality. It's just that the personality that it responds to is your real personality, the one that genuinely feels and reasons and acts, rather than any false, blown-up personality images your ego may conjure up. These false images are deflated so rapidly and completely you're bound to be very discouraged very soon if you've derived your gumption from ego rather than Quality. If modesty doesn't come easily or naturally to you, one way out of this trap is to fake the attitude of modesty anyway. If you just deliberately assume you're not much good, then your gumption gets a boost when the facts prove this assumption is correct. This way you can keep going until the time comes when the facts prove this assumption is incorrect. - ZAMM Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Reith Lectures
Hi Ian, I had no expectations, so just enjoyed Perry talking about art. While he was quite humorous, underneath he was quite insightful. The reference to ZAMM was in the QA. Thanks for announcing the lectures. Marsha On Dec 3, 2013, at 4:12 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I didn't notice that Marsha, By the time I got to the 4th lecture, I must have been flagging. I blogged notes about the first three, but got side-tracked by day-job pressures by the time I got to the fourth. I found the whole series credible and sensible, but the art critical press found it all too boring - not earth-shatteringly anti-establishment enough - so positive public media comment dropped off very quickly after the final lecture. I must listen again. Ian On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 7:13 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, I just finished the fourth and final lecture by Grayson Perry. Lo and behold, Perry mentions and paraphrases a quote (stated as a favorite of his) from ZAMM. Bravo for the lectures and his good taste in quotes. Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Reith Lectures
Ian, Two years after my husband died, I, at 52, left the IT/Corporate environment to learn to paint and basically make art. I had no illusions of fame or fortune, and I have not once regretted the decision. I don't know the cultural Perry; who I heard was a human being talk of art as making meaning and talking about taking refuge in art and as a bonus having a favorite quote from 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,'. He had my heart from the first lecture. And yes, he spoke from the wisdom of experience. - Funny thing too, when I left the professional life, I too, had to wear a costume of sorts as a rite of passage to a different way of being. Marsha On Dec 3, 2013, at 11:37 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: Understood Marsha. In fact there has been a media backlash against Perry since his rise to Reith lecture fame. He's become what we call euphemistically in little-old-UK a national treasure - someone we all love and defend for no obvious reason at the present time. Like you I think what he says is enlightened, by the wisdom of experience, even (especially) when it's not shockingly original (part of his point of course). Ian On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 10:04 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Ian, I had no expectations, so just enjoyed Perry talking about art. While he was quite humorous, underneath he was quite insightful. The reference to ZAMM was in the QA. Thanks for announcing the lectures. Marsha On Dec 3, 2013, at 4:12 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I didn't notice that Marsha, By the time I got to the 4th lecture, I must have been flagging. I blogged notes about the first three, but got side-tracked by day-job pressures by the time I got to the fourth. I found the whole series credible and sensible, but the art critical press found it all too boring - not earth-shatteringly anti-establishment enough - so positive public media comment dropped off very quickly after the final lecture. I must listen again. Ian On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 7:13 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, I just finished the fourth and final lecture by Grayson Perry. Lo and behold, Perry mentions and paraphrases a quote (stated as a favorite of his) from ZAMM. Bravo for the lectures and his good taste in quotes. Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Fwd: What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ron, Sorry, I have no notion how to make the question any clearer. I thought since you had something to say about 'intellect,' you might have a hypothetical opinion as to how 'intellect' fits within the MoQ's levels? Hahaha! Just one of the wonderings that at times dance through my flow of patterns. Marsha On Dec 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, I do not understand your question Please clarify . Sent from my iPhone On Dec 1, 2013, at 5:00 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, What relationship might 'intellect' have to intellectual static patterns of value of which the Intellectual Level is composed? Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: . Emerson's essay on intellect Is a brilliant example of the distinction Made between objective conceptions Of truth and artistic ones, after deconstructing the objective conceptions of his day he writes: Intellect lies behind genius, which is constructive. Intellect is the simple power anterior to all action or construction. He begins to associate intellect As the fruit of art and the spontaneous ... If we consider what persons have stimulated and profited us, we shall perceive the superiority of the spontaneous or intuitive principle over the arithmetical or logical. The first contains the second, but virtual and latent. We want, in every man, a long logic; we cannot pardon the absence of it, but it must not be spoken. Logic is the procession or proportionate unfolding of the intuition; but its virtue is as silent method; Intellect is the unfolding of intuition We are all wise. The difference in persons is not in wisdom but in art. The principle of art lies in community And communication .. To genius must always go two gifts, the thought and the publication. The first is revelation, always a miracle, which no frequency of occurrence or incessant study can ever familiarize, but which must always leave the inquirer stupid with wonder. It is the advent of truth into the world, a form of thought now, for the first time, bursting into the universe, a child of the old eternal soul, a piece of genuine and immeasurable greatness. It seems, for the time, to inherit all that has yet existed, and to dictate to the unborn. It affects every thought of man, and goes to fashion every institution. But to make it available, it needs a vehicle or art by which it is conveyed to men. . Sent from my iPhone On Nov 30, 2013, at 3:37 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ralph Waldo Emerson: Intellect Our spontaneous action is always the best. You cannot, with your best deliberation and heed, come so close to any question as your spontaneous glance shall bring you, whilst you rise from your bed, or walk abroad in the morning after meditating the matter before sleep on the previous night. Our thinking is a pious reception. Our truth of thought is therefore vitiated as much by too violent direction given by our will, as by too great negligence. We do not determine what we will think. We only open our senses, clear away, as we can, all obstruction from the fact, and suffer the intellect to see. We have little control over our thoughts. We are the prisoners of ideas. They catch us up for moments into their heaven, and so fully engage us, that we take no thought for the morrow, gaze like children, without an effort to make them our own. By and by we fall out of that rapture, bethink us where we have been, what we have seen, and repeat, as truly as we can, what we have be held. As far as we can recall these ecstasies, we carry away in the ineffaceable memory the result, and all men and all the ages confirm it. It is called Truth. But the moment we cease to report, and attempt to correct and contrive, it is not truth. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_36Y4mG_CI Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Fwd: What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ron, This is my own hypothetical interpretation, of course. RMP wrote of consciousness, Consciousness can be described as a process of defining Dynamic Quality- (LC, Annotation 57). This puts consciousness between Dynamic Quality and defining applying static patterns of value. I consider 'intellect' to be an aspect of consciousness. Some schools of Buddhism consider consciousness to be comprised of six different consciousnesses: mind consciousness and the five sense consciousnesses. 'Intellect', I think, is mind consciousness or one aspect of mind consciousness. Thanks for asking. Marsha On Dec 2, 2013, at 5:37 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, Since you posted Emersons essay On intellect , perhaps you should State your own hypothetical opinion as to how 'intellect' fits within the MoQ's levels then I might Understand your question better. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 2, 2013, at 3:39 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, Sorry, I have no notion how to make the question any clearer. I thought since you had something to say about 'intellect,' you might have a hypothetical opinion as to how 'intellect' fits within the MoQ's levels? Hahaha! Just one of the wonderings that at times dance through my flow of patterns. Marsha On Dec 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, I do not understand your question Please clarify . Sent from my iPhone On Dec 1, 2013, at 5:00 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, What relationship might 'intellect' have to intellectual static patterns of value of which the Intellectual Level is composed? Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: . Emerson's essay on intellect Is a brilliant example of the distinction Made between objective conceptions Of truth and artistic ones, after deconstructing the objective conceptions of his day he writes: Intellect lies behind genius, which is constructive. Intellect is the simple power anterior to all action or construction. He begins to associate intellect As the fruit of art and the spontaneous ... If we consider what persons have stimulated and profited us, we shall perceive the superiority of the spontaneous or intuitive principle over the arithmetical or logical. The first contains the second, but virtual and latent. We want, in every man, a long logic; we cannot pardon the absence of it, but it must not be spoken. Logic is the procession or proportionate unfolding of the intuition; but its virtue is as silent method; Intellect is the unfolding of intuition We are all wise. The difference in persons is not in wisdom but in art. The principle of art lies in community And communication .. To genius must always go two gifts, the thought and the publication. The first is revelation, always a miracle, which no frequency of occurrence or incessant study can ever familiarize, but which must always leave the inquirer stupid with wonder. It is the advent of truth into the world, a form of thought now, for the first time, bursting into the universe, a child of the old eternal soul, a piece of genuine and immeasurable greatness. It seems, for the time, to inherit all that has yet existed, and to dictate to the unborn. It affects every thought of man, and goes to fashion every institution. But to make it available, it needs a vehicle or art by which it is conveyed to men. . Sent from my iPhone On Nov 30, 2013, at 3:37 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ralph Waldo Emerson: Intellect snip... http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_36Y4mG_CI http://www.emersoncentral.com/intellect ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Fwd: What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ron, What relationship might 'intellect' have to intellectual static patterns of value of which the Intellectual Level is composed? Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: . Emerson's essay on intellect Is a brilliant example of the distinction Made between objective conceptions Of truth and artistic ones, after deconstructing the objective conceptions of his day he writes: Intellect lies behind genius, which is constructive. Intellect is the simple power anterior to all action or construction. He begins to associate intellect As the fruit of art and the spontaneous ... If we consider what persons have stimulated and profited us, we shall perceive the superiority of the spontaneous or intuitive principle over the arithmetical or logical. The first contains the second, but virtual and latent. We want, in every man, a long logic; we cannot pardon the absence of it, but it must not be spoken. Logic is the procession or proportionate unfolding of the intuition; but its virtue is as silent method; Intellect is the unfolding of intuition We are all wise. The difference in persons is not in wisdom but in art. The principle of art lies in community And communication .. To genius must always go two gifts, the thought and the publication. The first is revelation, always a miracle, which no frequency of occurrence or incessant study can ever familiarize, but which must always leave the inquirer stupid with wonder. It is the advent of truth into the world, a form of thought now, for the first time, bursting into the universe, a child of the old eternal soul, a piece of genuine and immeasurable greatness. It seems, for the time, to inherit all that has yet existed, and to dictate to the unborn. It affects every thought of man, and goes to fashion every institution. But to make it available, it needs a vehicle or art by which it is conveyed to men. . Sent from my iPhone On Nov 30, 2013, at 3:37 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ralph Waldo Emerson: Intellect Our spontaneous action is always the best. You cannot, with your best deliberation and heed, come so close to any question as your spontaneous glance shall bring you, whilst you rise from your bed, or walk abroad in the morning after meditating the matter before sleep on the previous night. Our thinking is a pious reception. Our truth of thought is therefore vitiated as much by too violent direction given by our will, as by too great negligence. We do not determine what we will think. We only open our senses, clear away, as we can, all obstruction from the fact, and suffer the intellect to see. We have little control over our thoughts. We are the prisoners of ideas. They catch us up for moments into their heaven, and so fully engage us, that we take no thought for the morrow, gaze like children, without an effort to make them our own. By and by we fall out of that rapture, bethink us where we have been, what we have seen, and repeat, as truly as we can, what we have behe l d. As far as we can recall these ecstasies, we carry away in the ineffaceable memory the result, and all men and all the ages confirm it. It is called Truth. But the moment we cease to report, and attempt to correct and contrive, it is not truth. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_36Y4mG_CI Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] the task
A WBAI interview (1960) from a series of interviews with modern poets: David Ossman (interviewer): What was it you said disturbed you? A departure from the ordered? Robert Duncan (poet): It sure wasn't! In the first place, there's nothing in this world you experience if it isn't an order. If it were really not an order, you wouldn't see it or hear it or know it or anything. The reason you see this ashtray is because it's an order; all elements that might be there, that you have not yourself brought into order, you do not see. I am a devout gestaltist. I believe that you only see patterns, and those are already orders. So the disordered is literally impossible. What you can have, though, is a bringing more and more into conscious order. I think that what people call disorder is not the world but stands for their very low tolerance of mixed orders. ... (Duncan, Robert, 'A Poet's Mind', p. 11) Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ralph Waldo Emerson: Intellect Our spontaneous action is always the best. You cannot, with your best deliberation and heed, come so close to any question as your spontaneous glance shall bring you, whilst you rise from your bed, or walk abroad in the morning after meditating the matter before sleep on the previous night. Our thinking is a pious reception. Our truth of thought is therefore vitiated as much by too violent direction given by our will, as by too great negligence. We do not determine what we will think. We only open our senses, clear away, as we can, all obstruction from the fact, and suffer the intellect to see. We have little control over our thoughts. We are the prisoners of ideas. They catch us up for moments into their heaven, and so fully engage us, that we take no thought for the morrow, gaze like children, without an effort to make them our own. By and by we fall out of that rapture, bethink us where we have been, what we have seen, and repeat, as truly as we can, what we have beheld. As far as we can recall these ecstasies, we carry away in the ineffaceable memory the result, and all men and all the ages confirm it. It is called Truth. But the moment we cease to report, and attempt to correct and contrive, it is not truth. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_36Y4mG_CI Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ron, I posted the youtube presentation of the entire (read aloud) essay. You may check my original post and I will post it again so you might be a good listener. So what is your complaint? Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Emerson's essay on intellect Is a brilliant example of the distinction Made between objective conceptions Of truth and artistic ones, after deconstructing the objective conceptions of his day he writes: Intellect lies behind genius, which is constructive. Intellect is the simple power anterior to all action or construction. He begins to associate intellect As the fruit of art and the spontaneous ... If we consider what persons have stimulated and profited us, we shall perceive the superiority of the spontaneous or intuitive principle over the arithmetical or logical. The first contains the second, but virtual and latent. We want, in every man, a long logic; we cannot pardon the absence of it, but it must not be spoken. Logic is the procession or proportionate unfolding of the intuition; but its virtue is as silent method; Intellect is the unfolding of intuition We are all wise. The difference persons is not in wisdom but in art. The principle of art lies in community And communication .. To genius must always go two gifts, the thought and the publication. The first is revelation, always a miracle, which no frequency of occurrence or incessant study can ever familiarize, but which must always leave the inquirer stupid with wonder. It is the advent of truth into the world, a form of thought now, for the first time, bursting into the universe, a child of the old eternal soul, a piece of genuine and immeasurable greatness. It seems, for the time, to inherit all that has yet existed, and to dictate to the unborn. It affects every thought of man, and goes to fashion every institution. But to make it available, it needs a vehicle or art by which it is conveyed to men. If Marsha were to post the entire essay. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ron, I posted the youtube presentation of the entire (read aloud) essay. You may check my original post and I will post it again so you might be a good listener. So what is your complaint? Youtube for listening: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_36Y4mG_CI Text: http://www.emersoncentral.com/intellect.htm Marsha Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Emerson's essay on intellect Is a brilliant example of the distinction Made between objective conceptions Of truth and artistic ones, after deconstructing the objective conceptions of his day he writes: Intellect lies behind genius, which is constructive. Intellect is the simple power anterior to all action or construction. He begins to associate intellect As the fruit of art and the spontaneous ... If we consider what persons have stimulated and profited us, we shall perceive the superiority of the spontaneous or intuitive principle over the arithmetical or logical. The first contains the second, but virtual and latent. We want, in every man, a long logic; we cannot pardon the absence of it, but it must not be spoken. Logic is the procession or proportionate unfolding of the intuition; but its virtue is as silent method; Intellect is the unfolding of intuition We are all wise. The difference persons is not in wisdom but in art. The principle of art lies in community And communication .. To genius must always go two gifts, the thought and the publication. The first is revelation, always a miracle, which no frequency of occurrence or incessant study can ever familiarize, but which must always leave the inquirer stupid with wonder. It is the advent of truth into the world, a form of thought now, for the first time, bursting into the universe, a child of the old eternal soul, a piece of genuine and immeasurable greatness. It seems, for the time, to inherit all that has yet existed, and to dictate to the unborn. It affects every thought of man, and goes to fashion every institution. But to make it available, it needs a vehicle or art by which it is conveyed to men. If Marsha were to post the entire essay. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Michael, Do you have a complaint with this particular essay? And I agree with Mr. Pirsig about doing well. I believe posters on this forum would all like to do well, and better. Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 11:38 AM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: My only problem with the American Transcendentalists is leaving behind this world. Mr. D. H. Lawrence puts it into the mouth of his Jesus, who survives the Cross and rethinks his mission, and repents a bit, and in the end thinks: From what, and to what, could this infinite whirl be saved? Mr. Pirsig doesn't seem to worry too much about saving. He just wants us to do well. You can kind of tell these things. MRB On 11/30/2013 2:37 AM, MarshaV wrote: Ralph Waldo Emerson: Intellect Our spontaneous action is always the best. You cannot, with your best deliberation and heed, come so close to any question as your spontaneous glance shall bring you, whilst you rise from your bed, or walk abroad in the morning after meditating the matter before sleep on the previous night. Our thinking is a pious reception. Our truth of thought is therefore vitiated as much by too violent direction given by our will, as by too great negligence. We do not determine what we will think. We only open our senses, clear away, as we can, all obstruction from the fact, and suffer the intellect to see. We have little control over our thoughts. We are the prisoners of ideas. They catch us up for moments into their heaven, and so fully engage us, that we take no thought for the morrow, gaze like children, without an effort to make them our own. By and by we fall out of that rapture, bethink us where we have been, what we have seen, and repeat, as truly as we can, what we have behel d . As far as we can recall these ecstasies, we carry away in the ineffaceable memory the result, and all men and all the ages confirm it. It is called Truth. But the moment we cease to report, and attempt to correct and contrive, it is not truth. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_36Y4mG_CI Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] Reith Lectures
Greetings, I just finished the fourth and final lecture by Grayson Perry. Lo and behold, Perry mentions and paraphrases a quote (stated as a favorite of his) from ZAMM. Bravo for the lectures and his good taste in quotes. Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Andre, The entire essay was too long to post. The particular paragraph that was posted was a quote, by Emerson, from the Intellect Essay, which mentions spontaneous that as you can see reflects the topic in the subject line. I've enjoyed reading Emerson, I enjoyed this essay, but perhaps you would have chosen a different paragraph, a different topic, or maybe a different essay or different author. Such is life! Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha asked Ron: I posted the youtube presentation of the entire (read aloud) essay. You may check my original post and I will post it again so you might be a good listener. So what is your complaint? Andre: The part you did NOT bother to quote Marsha. And you know full well what Ron is hinting at. It's another variation on your all too familiar Lucy tricks. The role the intellectual level plays as being seen as the 'unfolding of intuition'...the generator of truth: 'It is the advent of truth into the?world, a form of thought now, for the first time, bursting into the?universe, a child of the old eternal soul, a piece of genuine and?immeasurable greatness.'' It confirms your anti-intellectual attitude which YOU still consider full of trappings like reification and objectification (hence your 'static' being 'ever-changing'...as a way out of your conviction that the intellectual level IS SOM). That part which ought to be 'killed'...taken from Pirsig's MoQ which, in HIS hands is as solid as a rock and in YOUR hands as brittle as the cast-iron seats of the Victorians. This is entirely YOUR weakness in the arguments (I won't call it a discussion because you never discuss things here on this discuss!) That is why you still see the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as illusory. Why you see the holocaust as illusory. SHAME on you. To you static patterns of value have no meaning or relevance. They do not have importance nor a role to play in the evolutionary unfolding. No role in the ascension nor descension ( in Wilber's terms) It is a gross betrayal of DQ/sq which you prove, time and again, to completely misunderstand and misconstrue because of this confusion. You talk about 'dependent arising' whilst you fail to realize the significance of this concept...the intimate play with each other yet.sq is (like) an illusion. Therefore DQ is (like)an illusion as well (what the fuck is the difference between 'like an illusion' and 'illusion'). The question is very simple but do not bother to answer it. It will be so much more bullshit of which you are new-aged-ly full. Your retort and so called question to Ron betray this attitude and confusion...always leaving open your Lucy slithering tactics. You will not mend your ways. Your attitude on this discuss is deplorable. Keep your own soul-searching to yourself Marsha and wander around in your own Versaille-room full of mirrors...the favourite of you know who. You do not belong on this discuss. Perhaps you should devote your ego-centered energies on the Patanjali-site twittering section. ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Michael, Perhaps you will present some statements by Emerson that demonstrate the leaving behind this world that concerns you. Marsha --- On Nov 30, 2013, at 5:50 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Marsha - Not especially, though Emerson has that leaving-behind thrust to him even when he's all hearty and worldly. MRB On 11/30/2013 12:57 PM, MarshaV wrote: Michael, Do you have a complaint with this particular essay? And I agree with Mr. Pirsig about doing well. I believe posters on this forum would all like to do well, and better. Marsha On Nov 30, 2013, at 11:38 AM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: My only problem with the American Transcendentalists is leaving behind this world. Mr. D. H. Lawrence puts it into the mouth of his Jesus, who survives the Cross and rethinks his mission, and repents a bit, and in the end thinks: From what, and to what, could this infinite whirl be saved? Mr. Pirsig doesn't seem to worry too much about saving. He just wants us to do well. You can kind of tell these things. MRB On 11/30/2013 2:37 AM, MarshaV wrote: Ralph Waldo Emerson: Intellect Our spontaneous action is always the best. You cannot, with your best deliberation and heed, come so close to any question as your spontaneous glance shall bring you, whilst you rise from your bed, or walk abroad in the morning after meditating the matter before sleep on the previous night. Our thinking is a pious reception. Our truth of thought is therefore vitiated as much by too violent direction given by our will, as by too great negligence. We do not determine what we will think. We only open our senses, clear away, as we can, all obstruction from the fact, and suffer the intellect to see. We have little control over our thoughts. We are the prisoners of ideas. They catch us up for moments into their heaven, and so fully engage us, that we take no thought for the morrow, gaze like children, without an effort to make them our own. By and by we fall out of that rapture, bethink us where we have been, what we have seen, and repeat, as truly as we can, what we have behe ld. As far as we can recall these ecstasies, we carry away in the ineffaceable memory the result, and all men and all the ages confirm it. It is called Truth. But the moment we cease to report, and attempt to correct and contrive, it is not truth. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_36Y4mG_CI Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] the task
December 10, 1840 I discover a strange track in the snow, and learn that some migrating otter has made across from the river to the wood, by my yard and the smith’s shop, in the silence of the night. - I cannot but smile at my own wealth, when I am thus reminded that every chink and cranny of nature is full to overflowing. - That each instant is crowded full of great events. http://hdt.typepad.com/henrys_blog/2008/12/page/3/ On Nov 28, 2013, at 2:41 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and all, Inner dialogue is vague. Every word has a place in metaphysics. The word that I question is Love. In a logos logic duality love proposes a reality for duality as DQ/SQ love. DQ/SQ is a more precise definition for love than S/O love! Joe On 11/28/13 4:23 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: I care about philosophy and poetry and believe both are a way to clarify questions through inner dialogue, a sort of dialogue with ones heart. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] the task
From a MoQ value perspective, what do you think is the task of the philosopher? King or poet, or something else entirely? What is the task of the rhetorician? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] the task
J-A, Certainly they would not seem serious questions if you already know it all. Marsha On Nov 28, 2013, at 6:14 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson janander...@telia.com wrote: Dear Marsha The first thing one should ask is: Are you serious? Jan-Anders 28 nov 2013 kl. 11:50 skrev MarshaV val...@att.net: From a MoQ value perspective, what do you think is the task of the philosopher? King or poet, or something else entirely? What is the task of the rhetorician? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] the task
J-A, I care about philosophy and poetry and believe both are a way to clarify questions through inner dialogue, a sort of dialogue with ones heart. And so I present my questions to you in hopes that you might share in that exploration - not absolutes, but explorations. Marsha On Nov 28, 2013, at 6:58 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson janander...@telia.com wrote: Sure, but are you serious? 28 nov 2013 kl. 12:42 skrev MarshaV val...@att.net: J-A, Certainly they would not seem serious questions if you already know it all. Marsha On Nov 28, 2013, at 6:14 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson janander...@telia.com wrote: Dear Marsha The first thing one should ask is: Are you serious? Jan-Anders 28 nov 2013 kl. 11:50 skrev MarshaV val...@att.net: From a MoQ value perspective, what do you think is the task of the philosopher? King or poet, or something else entirely? What is the task of the rhetorician? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Missing the Buddha entirely
GENESIS byTheodore Roethke This elemental force Was wrested from the sun; A river's leaping source Is locked in narrow bone. This wisdom floods the mind, Invades quiescent blood; A seed that swells the rind To burst the fruit of good. A pearl within the brain, Secretion of the sense; Around a central grain A meaning grows immense. --- Hi low Joe, Poetry embraces DQ/sq. Marsha On Nov 26, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All, We are trying to delineate the scope of metaphysics DQ/SQ. Poetry can exceed logic puts us outside of the logical consideration of DQ/SQ reality. It becomes a false statement as poetry does not exceed logic DQ/SQ in being meaningful. Logic embraces DQ/SQ. IMHO Joe. On 11/25/13 1:12 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings Joe, A word's meaning is analogy built of analogy built of analogy, etc., etc., etc., ... Poetry can exceed logic. Triphammer Bridge by A.R. Ammons I wonder what to mean by sanctuary, if a real or apprehended place, as of a bell rung in a gold surround, or as of silver roads along the beaches of clouds seas don't break or black mountains overspill; jail: ice here's shapelier than anything, on the eaves massive, jawed along gorge ledges, solid in the plastic blue boat fall left water in: if I think the bitterest thing I can think of that seems like reality, slickened back, hard, shocked by rip-high wind: sanctuary, sanctuary, I say it over and over and the word's sound is the one place to dwell: that's it, just the sound, and the imagination of the sound -- a place. On Nov 25, 2013, at 3:52 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All: Logos/Logic! The word (logos) embodies logic. Meaning is embedded in the word (logos). Without logic a word has no meaning DQ/SQ. A word DQ embodies indefinable logic. Imho Joe On 11/25/13 2:09 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: His Quality was a metaphysical entity, not a mystic one. Or was it? What was the difference? He answered himself that the difference was one of definition. Metaphysical entities are defined. Mystical Ones are not. That made Quality mystical. No. It was really both. Although he'd thought of it purely in philosophical terms up to now as metaphysical, he had all along refused to define it. That made it mystic too. Its indefinability freed it from the rules of metaphysics. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Missing the Buddha entirely
He stood on a mound of sand beside some juniper bushes and said 'A!' He threw out his arms. Free! No idols, no Lila, no Rigel, no New York, no more America even. Just free! He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn't whirled like that for years. Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish. (RMP,'LILA', Chapter 32) Good book!!! On Nov 26, 2013, at 3:26 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: It was raining, a little, at the beginning of ZAMM. Most rain comes from the ocean. : ) MRB On 11/26/2013 1:53 AM, MarshaV wrote: Michael, It is interesting and wonderful how each person reflects RMP's words and ideas. Marsha On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:15 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: And so we make our way from the precision motorcycle on the hard man-made road at the beginning of ZAMM to the strange, shocked, empty, open clarity of a boat-in-water at the end of Lila. Is this not like another famous closing? “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.” Perhaps we've gone from the adolescence of On the Road to every life's getting -ready for a great sea-voyage. MRB On 11/25/2013 4:21 AM, MarshaV wrote: Then, on impulse, Phædrus went over to his bookshelf and picked out a small, blue, cardboard-bound book. He'd hand-copied this book and bound it himself years before, when he couldn't find a copy for sale anywhere. It was the 2,400-year-old Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu. He began to read through the lines he had read many times before, but this time he studied it to see if a certain substitution would work. He began to read and interpret it at the same time. He read: The quality that can be defined is not the Absolute Quality. That was what he had said. The names that can be given it are not Absolute names. It is the origin of heaven and earth. When named it is the mother of all things -- . Exactly. Quality [romantic Quality] and its manifestations [classic Quality] are in their nature the same. It is given different names [subjects and objects] when it becomes classically manifest. Romantic quality and classic quality together may be called the ``mystic.'' Reaching from mystery into deeper mystery, it is the gate to the secret of all life. Quality is all-pervading. And its use is inexhaustible! Fathomless! Like the fountainhead of all things -- Yet crystal clear like water it seems to remain. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Missing the Buddha entirely
Phædrus remembered Hegel had been regarded as a bridge between Western and Oriental philosophy. The Vedanta of the Hindus, the Way of the Taoists, even the Buddha had been described as an absolute monism similar to Hegel's philosophy. Phædrus doubted at the time, however, whether mystical Ones and metaphysical monisms were introconvertable since mystical Ones follow no rules and metaphysical monisms do. His Quality was a metaphysical entity, not a mystic one. Or was it? What was the difference? He answered himself that the difference was one of definition. Metaphysical entities are defined. Mystical Ones are not. That made Quality mystical. No. It was really both. Although he'd thought of it purely in philosophical terms up to now as metaphysical, he had all along refused to define it. That made it mystic too. Its indefinability freed it from the rules of metaphysics. On Nov 24, 2013, at 10:19 AM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: The Buddha who can be missed isn't the Buddha. The misser who misses the Buddha, though, probably is the misser. There's the rub! MRB On 11/24/2013 9:15 AM, MarshaV wrote: Hi Ron, To understand what he [Phædrus] was trying to do it's necessary to see that part of the landscape, inseparable from it, which must be understood, is a figure in the middle of it, sorting sand into piles. To see the landscape without seeing this figure is not to see the landscape at all. To reject that part of the Buddha that attends to the analysis of motorcycles is to miss the Buddha entirely. There is a perennial classical question that asks which part of the motorcycle, which grain of sand in which pile, is the Buddha. Obviously to ask that question is to look in the wrong direction, for the Buddha is everywhere. But just as obviously to ask that question is to look in the right direction, for the Buddha is everywhere. About the Buddha that exists independently of any analytic thought much has been said...some would say too much, and would question any attempt to add to it. But about the Buddha that exists within analytic thought, and gives that analytic thought its direction, virtually nothing has been said, and there are historic reasons for this. But history keeps happening, and it seems no harm and maybe some positive good to add to our historical heritage with some talk in this area of discourse. When analytic thought, the knife, is applied to experience, something is always killed in the process. That is fairly well understood, at least in the arts. Mark Twain's experience comes to mind, in which, after he had mastered the analytic knowledge needed to pilot the Mississippi River, he discovered the river had lost its beauty. ... ZAMM was a GREAT BOOK!!! LILA too! Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Missing the Buddha entirely
Then, on impulse, Phædrus went over to his bookshelf and picked out a small, blue, cardboard-bound book. He'd hand-copied this book and bound it himself years before, when he couldn't find a copy for sale anywhere. It was the 2,400-year-old Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu. He began to read through the lines he had read many times before, but this time he studied it to see if a certain substitution would work. He began to read and interpret it at the same time. He read: The quality that can be defined is not the Absolute Quality. That was what he had said. The names that can be given it are not Absolute names. It is the origin of heaven and earth. When named it is the mother of all things -- . Exactly. Quality [romantic Quality] and its manifestations [classic Quality] are in their nature the same. It is given different names [subjects and objects] when it becomes classically manifest. Romantic quality and classic quality together may be called the ``mystic.'' Reaching from mystery into deeper mystery, it is the gate to the secret of all life. Quality is all-pervading. And its use is inexhaustible! Fathomless! Like the fountainhead of all things -- Yet crystal clear like water it seems to remain. --- On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:09 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Phædrus remembered Hegel had been regarded as a bridge between Western and Oriental philosophy. The Vedanta of the Hindus, the Way of the Taoists, even the Buddha had been described as an absolute monism similar to Hegel's philosophy. Phædrus doubted at the time, however, whether mystical Ones and metaphysical monisms were introconvertable since mystical Ones follow no rules and metaphysical monisms do. His Quality was a metaphysical entity, not a mystic one. Or was it? What was the difference? He answered himself that the difference was one of definition. Metaphysical entities are defined. Mystical Ones are not. That made Quality mystical. No. It was really both. Although he'd thought of it purely in philosophical terms up to now as metaphysical, he had all along refused to define it. That made it mystic too. Its indefinability freed it from the rules of metaphysics. On Nov 24, 2013, at 10:19 AM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: The Buddha who can be missed isn't the Buddha. The misser who misses the Buddha, though, probably is the misser. There's the rub! MRB On 11/24/2013 9:15 AM, MarshaV wrote: Hi Ron, To understand what he [Phædrus] was trying to do it's necessary to see that part of the landscape, inseparable from it, which must be understood, is a figure in the middle of it, sorting sand into piles. To see the landscape without seeing this figure is not to see the landscape at all. To reject that part of the Buddha that attends to the analysis of motorcycles is to miss the Buddha entirely. There is a perennial classical question that asks which part of the motorcycle, which grain of sand in which pile, is the Buddha. Obviously to ask that question is to look in the wrong direction, for the Buddha is everywhere. But just as obviously to ask that question is to look in the right direction, for the Buddha is everywhere. About the Buddha that exists independently of any analytic thought much has been said...some would say too much, and would question any attempt to add to it. But about the Buddha that exists within analytic thought, and gives that analytic thought its direction, virtually nothing has been said, and there are historic reasons for this. But history keeps happening, and it seems no harm and maybe some positive good to add to our historical heritage with some talk in this area of discourse. When analytic thought, the knife, is applied to experience, something is always killed in the process. That is fairly well understood, at least in the arts. Mark Twain's experience comes to mind, in which, after he had mastered the analytic knowledge needed to pilot the Mississippi River, he discovered the river had lost its beauty. ... ZAMM was a GREAT BOOK!!! LILA too! Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Missing the Buddha entirely
Greetings Joe, A words meaning is analogy built of analogy built of analogy, etc., etc., etc., ... Poetry can exceed logic. Triphammer Bridge by A.R. Ammons I wonder what to mean by sanctuary, if a real or apprehended place, as of a bell rung in a gold surround, or as of silver roads along the beaches of clouds seas don't break or black mountains overspill; jail: ice here's shapelier than anything, on the eaves massive, jawed along gorge ledges, solid in the plastic blue boat fall left water in: if I think the bitterest thing I can think of that seems like reality, slickened back, hard, shocked by rip-high wind: sanctuary, sanctuary, I say it over and over and the word's sound is the one place to dwell: that's it, just the sound, and the imagination of the sound -- a place. On Nov 25, 2013, at 3:52 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All: Logos/Logic! The word (logos) embodies logic. Meaning is embedded in the word (logos). Without logic a word has no meaning DQ/SQ. A word DQ embodies indefinable logic. Imho Joe On 11/25/13 2:09 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: His Quality was a metaphysical entity, not a mystic one. Or was it? What was the difference? He answered himself that the difference was one of definition. Metaphysical entities are defined. Mystical Ones are not. That made Quality mystical. No. It was really both. Although he'd thought of it purely in philosophical terms up to now as metaphysical, he had all along refused to define it. That made it mystic too. Its indefinability freed it from the rules of metaphysics. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] Hannah Arendt - the movie
Director Margarethe von Trotta collaborates with screenwriter Pamela Katz to explore a key chapter in the life of German/Jewish political theorist and philosopher Hannah Arendt (Barbara Sukowa), who coined the phrase banality of evil while covering the 1961 trial of former Nazi Adolf Eichmann for The New Yorker. As the high-profile trial gets underway, Sukowa's astute observations on both Eichmann and the Jewish councils prove to be highly thought-provoking, and deeply controversial. http://www.fandango.com/hannaharendt_161922/movieoverview Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Missing the Buddha entirely
Michael, It is interesting and wonderful how each person reflects RMP's words and ideas. Marsha On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:15 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: And so we make our way from the precision motorcycle on the hard man-made road at the beginning of ZAMM to the strange, shocked, empty, open clarity of a boat-in-water at the end of Lila. Is this not like another famous closing? “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.” Perhaps we've gone from the adolescence of On the Road to every life's getting -ready for a great sea-voyage. MRB On 11/25/2013 4:21 AM, MarshaV wrote: Then, on impulse, Phædrus went over to his bookshelf and picked out a small, blue, cardboard-bound book. He'd hand-copied this book and bound it himself years before, when he couldn't find a copy for sale anywhere. It was the 2,400-year-old Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu. He began to read through the lines he had read many times before, but this time he studied it to see if a certain substitution would work. He began to read and interpret it at the same time. He read: The quality that can be defined is not the Absolute Quality. That was what he had said. The names that can be given it are not Absolute names. It is the origin of heaven and earth. When named it is the mother of all things -- . Exactly. Quality [romantic Quality] and its manifestations [classic Quality] are in their nature the same. It is given different names [subjects and objects] when it becomes classically manifest. Romantic quality and classic quality together may be called the ``mystic.'' Reaching from mystery into deeper mystery, it is the gate to the secret of all life. Quality is all-pervading. And its use is inexhaustible! Fathomless! Like the fountainhead of all things -- Yet crystal clear like water it seems to remain. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Missing the Buddha entirely
Hi Ron, To understand what he [Phædrus] was trying to do it's necessary to see that part of the landscape, inseparable from it, which must be understood, is a figure in the middle of it, sorting sand into piles. To see the landscape without seeing this figure is not to see the landscape at all. To reject that part of the Buddha that attends to the analysis of motorcycles is to miss the Buddha entirely. There is a perennial classical question that asks which part of the motorcycle, which grain of sand in which pile, is the Buddha. Obviously to ask that question is to look in the wrong direction, for the Buddha is everywhere. But just as obviously to ask that question is to look in the right direction, for the Buddha is everywhere. About the Buddha that exists independently of any analytic thought much has been said...some would say too much, and would question any attempt to add to it. But about the Buddha that exists within analytic thought, and gives that analytic thought its direction, virtually nothing has been said, and there are historic reasons for this. But history keeps happening, and it seems no harm and maybe some positive good to add to our historical heritage with some talk in this area of discourse. When analytic thought, the knife, is applied to experience, something is always killed in the process. That is fairly well understood, at least in the arts. Mark Twain's experience comes to mind, in which, after he had mastered the analytic knowledge needed to pilot the Mississippi River, he discovered the river had lost its beauty. ... ZAMM was a GREAT BOOK!!! LILA too! Marsha On Nov 24, 2013, at 8:28 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: reject that part of the Buddha that attends to the analysis of motorcycles is to miss the Buddha entirely.... About the Buddha that exists independently of any analytic thought much has been said - some would say TOO much, and would question any attempt to add to it. But about the Buddha that exists WITHIN analytic thought, and GIVES THAT ANALYTIC THOUGHT ITS DIRECTION, virtually nothing has been said, and there are historic reasons for this. But history keeps happening, and it seems no harm and maybe some positive good to add to our historical heritage with some talk in this area of discourse. RMP Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
At once it struck me, what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that is when man is capable of being in uncertainties. Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason. (John Keats) On Nov 20, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Seems, madam? Nay, it is. I know not seems. 'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother, Nor customary suits of solemn black, Nor windy suspiration of forced breath, No, nor the fruitful river in the eye, Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage, Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief, That can denote me truly. These indeed seem, For they are actions that a man might play. But I have that within which passeth show, These but the trappings and the suits of woe. MRB [who notes that Shakespeare can be interpreted very much in SQ/DQ terms - like all art. Let's get to it!] On 11/20/2013 3:40 PM, MarshaV wrote: Michael, That seems a good way to say it. Marsha On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Spontaneous is DQ rising up and brushing past SQ. : ) Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ron, Not a problem. It was not a demand, but an invitation to say more. Marsha On Nov 22, 2013, at 9:25 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, I have no idea what you mean. Self? What self Sent from my iPhone On Nov 22, 2013, at 3:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, Was it a surprise to find this within your self? This sentence certainly has no meaning for me, so can you explain what it means to you, and what you suggest it might mean to others not familiar with its significance? And while you're at it, what difference would it make if you hold this to be true? Marsha On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:27 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Psalm 1:1-2 Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and who meditates on his law day and night. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 21, 2013, at 2:35 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Within Dynamic Quality, absurdities evaporate spontaneously. Lila is the state of desireless ease and play. On Nov 20, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Seems, madam? Nay, it is. I know not seems. 'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother, Nor customary suits of solemn black, Nor windy suspiration of forced breath, No, nor the fruitful river in the eye, Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage, Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief, That can denote me truly. These indeed seem, For they are actions that a man might play. But I have that within which passeth show, These but the trappings and the suits of woe. MRB [who notes that Shakespeare can be interpreted very much in SQ/DQ terms - like all art. Let's get to it!] On 11/20/2013 3:40 PM, MarshaV wrote: Michael, That seems a good way to say it. Marsha On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Spontaneous is DQ rising up and brushing past SQ. : ) Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Ron, Was it a surprise to find this within your self? This sentence certainly has no meaning for me, so can you explain what it means to you, and what you suggest it might mean to others not familiar with its significance? And while you're at it, what difference would it make if you hold this to be true? Marsha On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:27 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Psalm 1:1-2 Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and who meditates on his law day and night. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 21, 2013, at 2:35 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Within Dynamic Quality, absurdities evaporate spontaneously. Lila is the state of desireless ease and play. On Nov 20, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Seems, madam? Nay, it is. I know not seems. 'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother, Nor customary suits of solemn black, Nor windy suspiration of forced breath, No, nor the fruitful river in the eye, Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage, Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief, That can denote me truly. These indeed seem, For they are actions that a man might play. But I have that within which passeth show, These but the trappings and the suits of woe. MRB [who notes that Shakespeare can be interpreted very much in SQ/DQ terms - like all art. Let's get to it!] On 11/20/2013 3:40 PM, MarshaV wrote: Michael, That seems a good way to say it. Marsha On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Spontaneous is DQ rising up and brushing past SQ. : ) Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
A young monk was studying Buddhism. He was walking up the hill to the temple enjoying the afternoon sun and contemplating inner peace and being one with the world around him. On his journey he noticed that the fence that surrounded the crop of corn the temple had been growing for the winter food supply was broken. He walked on being a part of the world around him. Then he noticed the cows had gotten into the corn and were munching away, how happy they must be on this lovely day, he thought, and walked on. When he got to the temple he greeted the master and in their conversation the young monk mentioned that he had seen the broken fence and the cows in the corn so happy on this lovely day. Upon hearing that the master picked up a stick, slapped the young monk on the top of the head and shouted as he ran to the fields, You fool! That is all the food we have to eat for the entire winter! So this Buddhist spontaneity is something practiced and learned, but it is also a very natural reaction to the events that require natural reactions. Imagine again the martial artist on a dark street. Ahead of him is a person walking his way. Is the person a threat? Is the person not a threat? If I attach to the idea that the person may be a threat, I may avoid eye contact, adopt a defensive walk or a threatening walk so he does not mess with me. If I accept the idea that he is not a threat, I may be too caviler and leave myself open for attack while not giving the situation the attention it deserves. The middle way is simply to be one's self, remain aware, and like the good martial artist, ready to respond in any way the wind blows. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110419205814AAljTkF Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Michael, That seems a good way to say it. Marsha On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Spontaneous is DQ rising up and brushing past SQ. : ) MRB On 11/20/2013 4:41 AM, MarshaV wrote: A young monk was studying Buddhism. He was walking up the hill to the temple enjoying the afternoon sun and contemplating inner peace and being one with the world around him. On his journey he noticed that the fence that surrounded the crop of corn the temple had been growing for the winter food supply was broken. He walked on being a part of the world around him. Then he noticed the cows had gotten into the corn and were munching away, how happy they must be on this lovely day, he thought, and walked on. When he got to the temple he greeted the master and in their conversation the young monk mentioned that he had seen the broken fence and the cows in the corn so happy on this lovely day. Upon hearing that the master picked up a stick, slapped the young monk on the top of the head and shouted as he ran to the fields, You fool! That is all the food we have to eat for the entire winter! So this Buddhist spontaneity is something practiced and learned, but it is also a very natural reaction to the events that require natural reactions. Imagine again the martial artist on a dark street. Ahead of him is a person walking his way. Is the person a threat? Is the person not a threat? If I attach to the idea that the person may be a threat, I may avoid eye contact, adopt a defensive walk or a threatening walk so he does not mess with me. If I accept the idea that he is not a threat, I may be too caviler and leave myself open for attack while not giving the situation the attention it deserves. The middle way is simply to be one's self, remain aware, and like the good martial artist, ready to respond in any way the wind blows. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110419205814AAljTkF Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Socrates: “I am wiser than this man; for neither of us really knows anything fine and good, but this man thinks he knows something when he does not, whereas I, as I do not know anything, do not think I do either. I seem, then, in just this little thing to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know I do not think I know either.” On Nov 20, 2013, at 8:19 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Dmb , Found the article very intriguing , The heart of the matter of Eros as That dynamic drive has the greatest Meaning in regard to rhetoric when it Is Understood that it's greAtest principle lies within the love of other People. I think your last post to Marsha Really captured the spirit required To accurately understand the full Meaning of rightness in speech Listening and thought but she fails To understand this Because she seems to not value Other people or recognize them As moral equals. Dismissive of all But her own experience , rightness And reflection can only refer to a self Centered system of values. Great article need to read it again Before making any more comments. Ron Sent from my iPhone On Nov 9, 2013, at 2:34 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley, Hans Jonas professor of philosophy at the New School for Social Research in New York. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 The intention of the “Phaedrus”.., as Alexander Nehemas has convincingly suggested, is to inflame philosophical eros in Phaedrus that gives him the ability to distinguish bad rhetoric, of the kinds found in Lysias’s speech and in Socrates’s first speech, from true rhetoric, of the kind found in the second speech and then analyzed in the second half of the dialogue. ...The opposite of a self-contradiction, the “Phaedrus” is a performative self-enactment of philosophy. If eros is a force that shapes the philosopher, then rhetoric is the art by which the philosopher persuades the non-philosopher to assume philosophical eros, to incline their soul towards truth. But to do this does not entail abandoning the art of rhetoric or indeed sophistry, which teaches that art, although it does so falsely. Philosophy uses true rhetoric against false rhetoric. The subject matter of the “Phaedrus” is rhetoric, true rhetoric. ... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
LOL :-) On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:43 AM, Jan Anders Andersson janander...@telia.com wrote: In the 17th century Thomas Hobbes wrote: “For such is the nature of (wo)men, that howsoever they may acknowledge many others to be more witty, or more eloquent, or more learned; Yet they will hardly believe there be many so wise as themselves; For they see their own wit at hand, and other (wo)mens at a distance.” Leviathan ch XIII. 21 nov 2013 x kl. 04.10 skrev MarshaV: Socrates: “I am wiser than this man; for neither of us really knows anything fine and good, but this man thinks he knows something when he does not, whereas I, as I do not know anything, do not think I do either. I seem, then, in just this little thing to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know I do not think I know either.” On Nov 20, 2013, at 8:19 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Dmb , Found the article very intriguing , The heart of the matter of Eros as That dynamic drive has the greatest Meaning in regard to rhetoric when it Is Understood that it's greAtest principle lies within the love of other People. I think your last post to Marsha Really captured the spirit required To accurately understand the full Meaning of rightness in speech Listening and thought but she fails To understand this Because she seems to not value Other people or recognize them As moral equals. Dismissive of all But her own experience , rightness And reflection can only refer to a self Centered system of values. Great article need to read it again Before making any more comments. Ron Sent from my iPhone On Nov 9, 2013, at 2:34 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley, Hans Jonas professor of philosophy at the New School for Social Research in New York. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 The intention of the “Phaedrus”.., as Alexander Nehemas has convincingly suggested, is to inflame philosophical eros in Phaedrus that gives him the ability to distinguish bad rhetoric, of the kinds found in Lysias’s speech and in Socrates’s first speech, from true rhetoric, of the kind found in the second speech and then analyzed in the second half of the dialogue. ...The opposite of a self-contradiction, the “Phaedrus” is a performative self-enactment of philosophy. If eros is a force that shapes the philosopher, then rhetoric is the art by which the philosopher persuades the non-philosopher to assume philosophical eros, to incline their soul towards truth. But to do this does not entail abandoning the art of rhetoric or indeed sophistry, which teaches that art, although it does so falsely. Philosophy uses true rhetoric against false rhetoric. The subject matter of the “Phaedrus” is rhetoric, true rhetoric. ... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] What is the meaning of spontaneous?
Within Dynamic Quality, absurdities evaporate spontaneously. Lila is the state of desireless ease and play. On Nov 20, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Seems, madam? Nay, it is. I know not seems. 'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother, Nor customary suits of solemn black, Nor windy suspiration of forced breath, No, nor the fruitful river in the eye, Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage, Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief, That can denote me truly. These indeed seem, For they are actions that a man might play. But I have that within which passeth show, These but the trappings and the suits of woe. MRB [who notes that Shakespeare can be interpreted very much in SQ/DQ terms - like all art. Let's get to it!] On 11/20/2013 3:40 PM, MarshaV wrote: Michael, That seems a good way to say it. Marsha On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com wrote: Spontaneous is DQ rising up and brushing past SQ. : ) Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Ron, What _is_ right? Meanwhile: The Alchemist Louise Bogan I burned my life, that I might find A passion wholly of the mind, Thought divorced from eye and bone, Ecstasy come to breath alone. I broke my life, to seek relief From the flawed light of love and grief. With mounting beat the utter fire Charred existence and desire. It died low, ceased its sudden thresh. I had found unmysterious flesh -- Not the mind's avid substance -- still Passionate beyond the will. On Nov 18, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Ron Kulp wrote: Marsha, If you do not recognize our Interpretation then perhaps You are not listening mindfully. I simply asked who/whom is at The core of the interpretation of What is right?. But you never addressed that question, all we got was a quote That we were to presumably take As a justification for not answering It as something to consider. All the other stuff was your typical Deception/evasion tactics that you Obviously lost track of ..mistake ? More like confusion concerning your Own web of deceptive speech. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2013, at 4:50 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron and Andre, As I do not recognized neither of your interpretations of the original context, let's backtrack and empty a bit of the tea to start afresh (or not): * On Nov 14, 2013, at 1:35 AM, MarshaV posted: Greetings, More on right speech: --- The Basics of Right Speech As recorded in the Pali Canon, the historical Buddha taught that Right Speech had four parts: • Abstain from false speech; do not tell lies or deceive. • Do not slander others or speak in a way that causes disharmony or enmity. • Abstain from rude, impolite or abusive language. • Do not indulge in idle talk or gossip. Practice of these four aspects of Right Speech goes beyond simple thou shalt nots. It means speaking truthfully and honestly; speaking in a way to promote harmony and good will; using language to reduce anger and ease tensions; using language in a way that is useful. If your speech is not useful and beneficial, teachers say, it is better to keep silent. --- Right Listening In his book The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh said, Deep listening is the foundation of Right Speech. If we cannot listen mindfully, we cannot practice Right Speech. No matter what we say, it will not be mindful, because we'll be speaking only our own ideas and not in response to the other person. This reminds us that our speech is not just our speech. Communication is something that happens between people. We might think of speech as something we give to others, and if we think of it that way, what is the quality of that gift? Mindfulness includes mindfulness of what's going on inside ourselves. If we aren't paying attention to our own emotions and taking care of ourselves, tension and suffering build up. And then we explode. http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/rightspeech.htm * On Nov 17, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Nov 15, 2013, at 10:34 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Andre, I didn't state that anatta was the same as 'small self'. I'll leave you with your personal evaluations. There is nothing here I wish to discuss. Notice the questions to Andre began with who and whom? The questions are pertaining to anatta, or small self? Marsha On Nov 15, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha to Ron: Notice the questions to Andre began with who and whom? The questions are pertaining to anatta, or small self? Andre: Who the heck do you think you are, on this discuss other than anatta? And, by the way, you have it wrong. Anatta refers to 'no-self' which is different to small self. To whom is Ron directing his question other than anatta which you term 'small self'??? This is the world we live in and what we are!! Sq...we ARE these patterns. And, oh...Big Self (no-self) has nothing to say. It is silent...I experience this several times a day. But that is not the one writing these lines. Marsha: The questions in no way were meant to indicate that the right way means whatever one wants it to mean. Andre: Marsha, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way you go about this discuss. I'll refer to your 'apology' earlier today: 'There is so much not available in an email communication. I only see words on a screen without any emotional cues. I tend not to want to make things personal for that reason. I don't really know you at all. If I misread you tone, I apologize. I too easily fall into the pattern of using past experiences.' Andre continues: Do you not register that a human being types
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Ron and Andre, As I do not recognized neither of your interpretations of the original context, let's backtrack and empty a bit of the tea to start afresh (or not): * On Nov 14, 2013, at 1:35 AM, MarshaV posted: Greetings, More on right speech: --- The Basics of Right Speech As recorded in the Pali Canon, the historical Buddha taught that Right Speech had four parts: • Abstain from false speech; do not tell lies or deceive. • Do not slander others or speak in a way that causes disharmony or enmity. • Abstain from rude, impolite or abusive language. • Do not indulge in idle talk or gossip. Practice of these four aspects of Right Speech goes beyond simple thou shalt nots. It means speaking truthfully and honestly; speaking in a way to promote harmony and good will; using language to reduce anger and ease tensions; using language in a way that is useful. If your speech is not useful and beneficial, teachers say, it is better to keep silent. --- Right Listening In his book The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh said, Deep listening is the foundation of Right Speech. If we cannot listen mindfully, we cannot practice Right Speech. No matter what we say, it will not be mindful, because we'll be speaking only our own ideas and not in response to the other person. This reminds us that our speech is not just our speech. Communication is something that happens between people. We might think of speech as something we give to others, and if we think of it that way, what is the quality of that gift? Mindfulness includes mindfulness of what's going on inside ourselves. If we aren't paying attention to our own emotions and taking care of ourselves, tension and suffering build up. And then we explode. http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/rightspeech.htm * On Nov 17, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Nov 15, 2013, at 10:34 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Andre, I didn't state that anatta was the same as 'small self'. I'll leave you with your personal evaluations. There is nothing here I wish to discuss. Notice the questions to Andre began with who and whom? The questions are pertaining to anatta, or small self? Marsha On Nov 15, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha to Ron: Notice the questions to Andre began with who and whom? The questions are pertaining to anatta, or small self? Andre: Who the heck do you think you are, on this discuss other than anatta? And, by the way, you have it wrong. Anatta refers to 'no-self' which is different to small self. To whom is Ron directing his question other than anatta which you term 'small self'??? This is the world we live in and what we are!! Sq...we ARE these patterns. And, oh...Big Self (no-self) has nothing to say. It is silent...I experience this several times a day. But that is not the one writing these lines. Marsha: The questions in no way were meant to indicate that the right way means whatever one wants it to mean. Andre: Marsha, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way you go about this discuss. I'll refer to your 'apology' earlier today: 'There is so much not available in an email communication. I only see words on a screen without any emotional cues. I tend not to want to make things personal for that reason. I don't really know you at all. If I misread you tone, I apologize. I too easily fall into the pattern of using past experiences.' Andre continues: Do you not register that a human being types these words? Do you ONLY see words and nothing else? This really confirms my (and some others') idea that you are so suspicious of the intellectual level (in your mind= SOM)that you do not see or feel or hear any living patterns behind the written language. Anti-intellectualism to a sickly extreme. Do you think that you, on this forum discussing Pirsig's MoQ, are addressed as anything other than your 'small self? (Yes, the world and all it's inhabitants are an illusion...it's analogies all the way down and up and left and right and centered and below and wherever you want them to be) AND SO ARE YOU. So why not behave as part of that illusion if you want to seriously engage in discussions on this Discuss. Avoiding discussions and appealing to 'anatta' (i.e. not-self) won't win you any flavours or favours. It is a sickly way to escape...because that is what it is. An ESCAPE and NOT a constructive way to creatively move a discussion along or throw a completely different light on an old topic or simply answer a question. NO! You use it as a way to wriggle through, to slither your way out of any and every situation. You asked me the other day on your comment that 'If your speech is not useful and beneficial
Re: [MD] self-controlling
What's the underlying assumption? Self and other? :WHAT do you do if, when you get to a subway platform, you see that it is already packed with people? Do you join the throngs to wait for the train, or do you shake your head and seek an alternative way to get where you’re going? If you go the first route, you probably think that the crowd means there must not have been a train for some time and that one is imminent. If you choose the second, you’ve come to the opposite conclusion: It’s crowded, a train hasn’t come in a while, so it’s likely there’s some sort of problem — and who knows how long you’ll end up waiting. Better cut your losses and split. When we think of self-control, we don’t normally see it in these terms — a reasoned decision to wait or not. In fact, the ability to delay gratification has traditionally been seen in large part as an issue of willpower: Do you have what it takes to wait it out, to choose a later — and, presumably, better — reward over an immediate, though not quite as good one? Can you forgo a brownie in service of the larger reward of losing weight, give up ready cash in favor of a later investment payoff? The immediate option is hot; you can taste it, smell it, feel it. The long-term choice is far cooler; it’s hard to picture it with quite as much color or power. In psychological terms, the difference is typically seen as a dual-system trade-off: On one hand, you have the deliberative, reflective, cool system; on the other, the intuitive, reflexive, hot system. The less self-control you have, the further off and cooler the future becomes and the hotter the immediate present grows. To read full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/opinion/sunday/youre-so-self-controlling.html?hprref=opinion_r=0 ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
On Nov 17, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Nov 15, 2013, at 10:34 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Andre, I didn't state that anatta was the same as 'small self'. I'll leave you with your personal evaluations. There is nothing here I wish to discuss. Notice the questions to Andre began with who and whom? The questions are pertaining to anatta, or small self? And? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Andre, On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha said: If your speech is not useful and beneficial, teachers say, it is better to keep silent. Andre replied: Given your record here on this Discuss one can only hope you apply this wisdom to yourself. You reap what you sow. To which Marsha responded: Record of what, and interpreted by whom? Who is at the core of such opinion? I thought you had decided to delete my posts rather than read them. Andre: Typical Lucy response once again. Here I was complementing you (probably for the first time) on your choice of quotes with some wisdom and I get this... . There is so much not available in an email communication. I only see words on a screen without any emotional cues. I tend not to want to make things personal for that reason. I don't really know you at all. If I misread you tone, I apologize. I too easily fall into the pattern of using past experiences. Marsha Shows that you really do not read what you shove on this discuss, let alone learn from it. Well, I've learned: back to the 'trash' with you. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Hi Ron, I do not contend that the right way means whatever one wants it to mean. Marsha On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:17 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Yet, you contend that right way Means whatever one wants it to Mean. Murder and torture can be just as Right and moral if that is their goal And they meditate on it. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 15, 2013, at 2:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Ron, On Nov 14, 2013, at 7:17 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Good philosophical question. Right understanding is the first step on the Noble Eightfold Path. It is followed by right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Why do we begin with right understanding? We do so because, to climb a mountain, we must have the summit clearly in view. In this sense, the first step on our journey depends on the last. We have to keep the goal clearly in view if we are to travel a path which can take us surely to that goal. In this way, right understanding gives direction and orientation to the other steps of the path. (Della Santina, Peter 'The Tree of Enlightenment') From the same book: ... the Noble Eightfold Path has been divided into the three ways of practice: (1) morality, or good conduct, (2) mental development, and (3) wisdom. --- So, how do you get to the top of Mount Carnegie Hall? Practice. Practice. Practice. Thoughts: The purpose of mystic meditation is not to remove oneself from experience but to bring one's self closer to it by eliminating stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments of the past. (LILA, Chapter 9) “Introspective observation is what we have to rely on first and foremost and always... I regard the belief [in introspection] as the most fundamental of all the postulates of Psychology” (W. James, 1890) “Your visions will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes” (C.G. Jung) Marsha How can one ever hope for right way Thought-speech-listening what is right way? Who deems it so? All those quotes juSt farts in the wind If there is no standard for right way Thoughts , projections ? Sent from my iPhone On Nov 14, 2013, at 4:12 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Andre, Record of what, and interpreted by whom? Who is at the core of such opinion? I thought you had decided to delete my posts rather than read them. Possibly you should have kept silent rather than announce such a decision. Marsha On Nov 14, 2013, at 3:58 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha: If your speech is not useful and beneficial, teachers say, it is better to keep silent. Andre: Given your record here on this Discuss one can only hope you apply this wisdom to yourself. You reap what you sow. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Hi Ron, Notice the questions to Andre began with who and whom? The questions are pertaining to anatta, or small self? The questions in no way were meant to indicate that the right way means whatever one wants it to mean. You might have directly asked me for clarification. I do not like the way you obscurely assume, forcing a person to deny what was never an issue in the first place. Marsha On Nov 15, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, Apply your quote to the topic of right way who decides what is right? Who interprets what that is? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Andre, I didn't state that anatta was the same as 'small self'. I'll leave you with your personal evaluations. There is nothing here I wish to discuss. Marsha On Nov 15, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha to Ron: Notice the questions to Andre began with who and whom? The questions are pertaining to anatta, or small self? Andre: Who the heck do you think you are, on this discuss other than anatta? And, by the way, you have it wrong. Anatta refers to 'no-self' which is different to small self. To whom is Ron directing his question other than anatta which you term 'small self'??? This is the world we live in and what we are!! Sq...we ARE these patterns. And, oh...Big Self (no-self) has nothing to say. It is silent...I experience this several times a day. But that is not the one writing these lines. Marsha: The questions in no way were meant to indicate that the right way means whatever one wants it to mean. Andre: Marsha, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way you go about this discuss. I'll refer to your 'apology' earlier today: 'There is so much not available in an email communication. I only see words on a screen without any emotional cues. I tend not to want to make things personal for that reason. I don't really know you at all. If I misread you tone, I apologize. I too easily fall into the pattern of using past experiences.' Andre continues: Do you not register that a human being types these words? Do you ONLY see words and nothing else? This really confirms my (and some others') idea that you are so suspicious of the intellectual level (in your mind= SOM)that you do not see or feel or hear any living patterns behind the written language. Anti-intellectualism to a sickly extreme. Do you think that you, on this forum discussing Pirsig's MoQ, are addressed as anything other than your 'small self? (Yes, the world and all it's inhabitants are an illusion...it's analogies all the way down and up and left and right and centered and below and wherever you want them to be) AND SO ARE YOU. So why not behave as part of that illusion if you want to seriously engage in discussions on this Discuss. Avoiding discussions and appealing to 'anatta' (i.e. not-self) won't win you any flavours or favours. It is a sickly way to escape...because that is what it is. An ESCAPE and NOT a constructive way to creatively move a discussion along or throw a completely different light on an old topic or simply answer a question. NO! You use it as a way to wriggle through, to slither your way out of any and every situation. You asked me the other day on your comment that 'If your speech is not useful and beneficial,...it is better to keep silent.': I gave you my view and you answered:Record of what, and interpreted by whom? Who is at the core of such opinion? It is very obvious that the 'record' you are referring to is your own (just check the archives). Interpreted by many readers and participants of this discuss. Who or what is at the core of such an opinion? I'll tell you Marsha: the one who wrote this is the one who reads this. And if that is not clear enough: the one who reads this is the one who wrote this. Stop hiding and own up! Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Greetings, Something to consider: ... The Buddha divided all questions into four classes: those that deserve a categorical (straight yes or no) answer; those that deserve an analytical answer, defining and qualifying the terms of the question; those that deserve a counter-question, putting the ball back in the questioner’s court; and those that deserve to be put aside. ... (Ajahn Pasanno Ajahn Amaro, 'The Island', p. 96) Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Andre, Record of what, and interpreted by whom? Who is at the core of such opinion? I thought you had decided to delete my posts rather than read them. Possibly you should have kept silent rather than announce such a decision. Marsha On Nov 14, 2013, at 3:58 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha: If your speech is not useful and beneficial, teachers say, it is better to keep silent. Andre: Given your record here on this Discuss one can only hope you apply this wisdom to yourself. You reap what you sow. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Hi Ron, On Nov 14, 2013, at 7:17 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Good philosophical question. Right understanding is the first step on the Noble Eightfold Path. It is followed by right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Why do we begin with right understanding? We do so because, to climb a mountain, we must have the summit clearly in view. In this sense, the first step on our journey depends on the last. We have to keep the goal clearly in view if we are to travel a path which can take us surely to that goal. In this way, right understanding gives direction and orientation to the other steps of the path. (Della Santina, Peter 'The Tree of Enlightenment') From the same book: ... the Noble Eightfold Path has been divided into the three ways of practice: (1) morality, or good conduct, (2) mental development, and (3) wisdom. --- So, how do you get to the top of Mount Carnegie Hall? Practice. Practice. Practice. Thoughts: The purpose of mystic meditation is not to remove oneself from experience but to bring one's self closer to it by eliminating stale, confusing, static, intellectual attachments of the past. (LILA, Chapter 9) “Introspective observation is what we have to rely on first and foremost and always... I regard the belief [in introspection] as the most fundamental of all the postulates of Psychology” (W. James, 1890) “Your visions will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes” (C.G. Jung) Marsha How can one ever hope for right way Thought-speech-listening what is right way? Who deems it so? All those quotes juSt farts in the wind If there is no standard for right way Thoughts , projections ? Sent from my iPhone On Nov 14, 2013, at 4:12 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Andre, Record of what, and interpreted by whom? Who is at the core of such opinion? I thought you had decided to delete my posts rather than read them. Possibly you should have kept silent rather than announce such a decision. Marsha On Nov 14, 2013, at 3:58 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha: If your speech is not useful and beneficial, teachers say, it is better to keep silent. Andre: Given your record here on this Discuss one can only hope you apply this wisdom to yourself. You reap what you sow. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Greetings, Ah yes, peace of mind... Peace of mind isn't at all superficial, really,'' I expound. ``It's the whole thing. That which produces it is good maintenance; that which disturbs it is poor maintenance. What we call workability of the machine is just an objectification of this peace of mind. The ultimate test's always your own serenity. If you don't have this when you start and maintain it while you're working you're likely to build your personal problems right into the machine itself.'' (RMP,'ZAMM) Zen Buddhists talk about ``just sitting,'' a meditative practice in which the idea of a duality of self and object does not dominate one's consciousness. What I'm talking about here in motorcyele maintenance is ``just fixing,'' in which the idea of a duality of self and object doesn't dominate one's consciousness. When one isn't dominated by feelings of separateness from what he's working on, then one can be said to ``care'' about what he's doing. That is what caring really is, a feeling of identification with what one's doing. When one has this feeling then he also sees the inverse side of caring, Quality itself. So the thing to do when working on a motorcycle, as in any other task, is to cultivate the peace of mind which does not separate one's self from one's surroundings. When that is done successfully then everything else follows naturally. Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all. That was what it was about that wall in Korea. It was a material reflection of a spiritual reality. (RMP,'ZAMM) Marsha --- On Nov 12, 2013, at 5:37 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Of the talk about dukkha being like a spinning wheel? From Anthony McWatt's 'MoQ Textbook' The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to propel it, the cart would not move forward at all. (Pirsig, 1997a) The Ultimate Truth (Quality) is something each individual must realize; it is the still point at the center of the wheel. That still point is not you or me or any things. In meditation, you're moving towards that center. You are letting go of all patterns: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. The patterns are killed, or 'completely stopped', in order to realize the still point in the center of the wheel - the silence. The letting go is not annihilation or a rejection, but it gives one the perspective and peace of mind to understand the whole from being at the center instead out on the circumference where you just get whirled about or stuck in a gumption rut. When refreshed, one moves forward smoothly and/or creatively. Imho. Marsha --- On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:54 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Yet, how does RMP state morality can be served? RMP: While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served. ... When Phaedrus first went to India he'd wondered why, if this passage of enlightenment into pure Dynamic Quality was such a universal reality, did it only occur in certain parts of the world and not others? At the time he'd thought this was proof that the whole thing was just Oriental religious baloney, the equivalent of a magic land called 'heaven' that Westerners go to if they are good and get a ticket from the priests. Now he saw that enlightenment is distributed in all parts of the world just as the color yellow is distributed in all parts of the world, but some cultures accept it and others screen out recognition of it. (LILA, Chapter 32) --- On Nov 9, 2013, at 2:34 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley, Hans Jonas professor of philosophy at the New School for Social Research in New York. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 The intention of the “Phaedrus”.., as Alexander Nehemas has convincingly suggested, is to inflame philosophical eros in Phaedrus that gives him the ability to distinguish bad rhetoric, of the kinds found in Lysias’s
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Greetings again, RMP has spoken of peace of mind in terms Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions ... But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category. Here is one Buddhist's take on right speech: Buddhism Right Speech For many of us, right speech is the most difficult of the precepts to honor. Yet practicing right speech is fundamental both to helping us become trustworthy individuals and to helping us gain mastery over the mind. So choose your words - and your motives for speaking - with care. An essay by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Right speech, explained in negative terms, means avoiding four types of harmful speech: lies (words spoken with the intent of misrepresenting the truth); divisive speech (spoken with the intent of creating rifts between people); harsh speech (spoken with the intent of hurting another person's feelings); and idle chatter (spoken with no purposeful intent at all). Notice the focus on intent: this is where the practice of right speech intersects with the training of the mind. Before you speak, you focus on why you want to speak. This helps get you in touch with all the machinations taking place in the committee of voices running your mind. If you see any unskillful motives lurking behind the committee's decisions, you veto them. As a result, you become more aware of yourself, more honest with yourself, more firm with yourself. You also save yourself from saying things that you'll later regret. In this way you strengthen qualities of mind that will be helpful in meditation, at the same time avoiding any potentially painful memories that would get in the way of being attentive to the present moment when the time comes to meditate. In positive terms, right speech means speaking in ways that are trustworthy, harmonious, comforting, and worth taking to heart. When you make a practice of these positive forms of right speech, your words become a gift to others. In response, other people will start listening more to what you say, and will be more likely to respond in kind. This gives you a sense of the power of your actions: the way you act in the present moment does shape the world of your experience. You don't need to be a victim of past events. For many of us, the most difficult part of practicing right speech lies in how we express our sense of humor. Especially here in America, we're used to getting laughs with exaggeration, sarcasm, group stereotypes, and pure silliness -- all classic examples of wrong speech. If people get used to these sorts of careless humor, they stop listening carefully to what we say. In this way, we cheapen our own discourse. Actually, there's enough irony in the state of the world that we don't need to exaggerate or be sarcastic. The greatest humorists are the ones who simply make us look directly at the way things are. Expressing our humor in ways that are truthful, useful, and wise may require thought and effort, but when we master this sort of wit we find that the effort is well spent. We've sharpened our own minds and have improved our verbal environment. In this way, even our jokes become part of our practice: an opportunity to develop positive qualities of mind and to offer something of intelligent value to the people around us. So pay close attention to what you say -- and to why you say it. When you do, you'll discover that an open mouth doesn't have to be a mistake. http://www.esolibris.com/articles/buddhism/buddhism_speech.php --- On Nov 13, 2013, at 3:42 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Ah yes, peace of mind... Peace of mind isn't at all superficial, really,'' I expound. ``It's the whole thing. That which produces it is good maintenance; that which disturbs it is poor maintenance. What we call workability of the machine is just an objectification of this peace of mind. The ultimate test's always your own serenity. If you don't have this when you start and maintain it while you're working you're likely to build your personal problems right into the machine itself.'' (RMP,'ZAMM) Zen Buddhists talk about ``just sitting,'' a meditative practice in which the idea of a duality of self and object does not dominate one's consciousness. What I'm talking about here in motorcyele maintenance is ``just fixing,'' in which the idea of a duality of self and object doesn't dominate one's consciousness. When one isn't dominated by feelings of separateness from what he's working on, then one can be said to ``care'' about what he's doing. That is what caring really is, a feeling of identification with what one's doing. When one has this feeling then he also sees the inverse side of caring, Quality itself. So the thing to do when working on a motorcycle, as in any
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
dmb, You have accused me of hostility. What is at the core of this opinion? What difference does it make if you hold this to be true??? Marsha p.s. There was no hostility on my part. On Nov 13, 2013, at 11:26 AM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: On Nov 9, dmb posted an article from the New York Times opinion page: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 On Nov 10, MarshaV gave her standard reply to everything: Yet, how does RMP state morality can be served? RMP: While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served. ... When Phaedrus first went to India he'd wondered why, if this passage of enlightenment into pure Dynamic Quality was such a universal reality, did it only occur in certain parts of the world and not others? At the time he'd thought this was proof that the whole thing was just Oriental religious baloney, the equivalent of a magic land called 'heaven' that Westerners go to if they are good and get a ticket from the priests. Now he saw that enlightenment is distributed in all parts of the world just as the color yellow is distributed in all parts of the world, but some cultures accept it and others screen out recognition of it. (LILA, Chapter 32) On Nov 12, MarshaV recommended the killing of intellect again: Of the talk about dukkha being like a spinning wheel? From Anthony McWatt's 'MoQ Textbook' The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to propel it, the cart would not move forward at all. (Pirsig, 1997a) The Ultimate Truth (Quality) is something each individual must realize; it is the still point at the center of the wheel. That still point is not you or me or any things. In meditation, you're moving towards that center. You are letting go of all patterns: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. The patterns are killed, or 'completely stopped', in order to realize the still point in the center of the wheel - the silence. The letting go is not annihilation or a rejection, but it gives one the perspective and peace of mind to understand the whole from being at the center instead out on the circumference where you just get whirled about or stuck in a gumption rut. When refreshed, one moves forward smoothly and/or creatively. Imho. On Nov 13, MarshaV posted quotes on peace of mind: RMP has spoken of peace of mind in terms Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions ... But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category. Here is one Buddhist's take on right speech: dmb: Later on the 13th of Nov, Marsha ALMOST mentioned the actual topic (the difference between true rhetoric and false rhetoric): Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. ...But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category dmb says: Yea, what about right speech? What about RELEVANT thought and relevant speech? What kind of motive is operating in Marsha's replies? The first two responses were not only irrelevant but also deliberately designed to change the subject and generate hostility. Critchley's article should be of interest to anyone in a Pirsig discussion group - for obvious reasons. And yet Marsha has responded four times without even mentioning the article, without mentioning true or false rhetoric, without mentioning either Phaedrus (Plato's or Pirsig's), without mentioning Socrates, Plato, Critchley or any of the ideas in his article. What motive is behind this sort of conversational behavior? It certainly doesn't seem to be motivated by any sincere interest in Critchley's view or even any genuine interest in the topic. The Buddhist's eightfold path does NOT begin with killing the intellect. Quite
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
dmb, Also please note that I added back the contextual portion to my quotes which had you abbreviated giving the wrong impression. Marsha On Nov 13, 2013, at 1:45 PM, MarshaV wrote: dmb, You have accused me of hostility. What is at the core of this opinion? What difference does it make if you hold this to be true??? Marsha p.s. There was no hostility on my part. On Nov 13, 2013, at 11:26 AM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: On Nov 9, dmb posted an article from the New York Times opinion page: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 On Nov 10, MarshaV gave her standard reply to everything: Yet, how does RMP state morality can be served? RMP: While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served. ... When Phaedrus first went to India he'd wondered why, if this passage of enlightenment into pure Dynamic Quality was such a universal reality, did it only occur in certain parts of the world and not others? At the time he'd thought this was proof that the whole thing was just Oriental religious baloney, the equivalent of a magic land called 'heaven' that Westerners go to if they are good and get a ticket from the priests. Now he saw that enlightenment is distributed in all parts of the world just as the color yellow is distributed in all parts of the world, but some cultures accept it and others screen out recognition of it. (LILA, Chapter 32) On Nov 12, MarshaV recommended the killing of intellect again: Of the talk about dukkha being like a spinning wheel? From Anthony McWatt's 'MoQ Textbook' The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to propel it, the cart would not move forward at all. (Pirsig, 1997a) The Ultimate Truth (Quality) is something each individual must realize; it is the still point at the center of the wheel. That still point is not you or me or any things. In meditation, you're moving towards that center. You are letting go of all patterns: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. The patterns are killed, or 'completely stopped', in order to realize the still point in the center of the wheel - the silence. The letting go is not annihilation or a rejection, but it gives one the perspective and peace of mind to understand the whole from being at the center instead out on the circumference where you just get whirled about or stuck in a gumption rut. When refreshed, one moves forward smoothly and/or creatively. Imho. On Nov 13, MarshaV posted quotes on peace of mind: RMP has spoken of peace of mind in terms Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions ... But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category. Here is one Buddhist's take on right speech: dmb: Later on the 13th of Nov, Marsha ALMOST mentioned the actual topic (the difference between true rhetoric and false rhetoric): Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. ...But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category dmb says: Yea, what about right speech? What about RELEVANT thought and relevant speech? What kind of motive is operating in Marsha's replies? The first two responses were not only irrelevant but also deliberately designed to change the subject and generate hostility. Critchley's article should be of interest to anyone in a Pirsig discussion group - for obvious reasons. And yet Marsha has responded four times without even mentioning the article, without mentioning true or false rhetoric, without mentioning either Phaedrus (Plato's or Pirsig's), without mentioning Socrates, Plato, Critchley or any of the ideas in his article. What motive is behind this sort of conversational behavior? It certainly doesn't
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
On Nov 13, 2013, at 3:36 PM, MarshaV wrote: correction. dmb, Also please note that I added back the contextual portion to my quotes which you had abbreviated giving the wrong impression. Marsha On Nov 13, 2013, at 1:45 PM, MarshaV wrote: dmb, You have accused me of hostility. What is at the core of this opinion? What difference does it make if you hold this to be true??? Marsha p.s. There was no hostility on my part. On Nov 13, 2013, at 11:26 AM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: On Nov 9, dmb posted an article from the New York Times opinion page: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 On Nov 10, MarshaV gave her standard reply to everything: Yet, how does RMP state morality can be served? RMP: While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served. ... When Phaedrus first went to India he'd wondered why, if this passage of enlightenment into pure Dynamic Quality was such a universal reality, did it only occur in certain parts of the world and not others? At the time he'd thought this was proof that the whole thing was just Oriental religious baloney, the equivalent of a magic land called 'heaven' that Westerners go to if they are good and get a ticket from the priests. Now he saw that enlightenment is distributed in all parts of the world just as the color yellow is distributed in all parts of the world, but some cultures accept it and others screen out recognition of it. (LILA, Chapter 32) On Nov 12, MarshaV recommended the killing of intellect again: Of the talk about dukkha being like a spinning wheel? From Anthony McWatt's 'MoQ Textbook' The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to propel it, the cart would not move forward at all. (Pirsig, 1997a) The Ultimate Truth (Quality) is something each individual must realize; it is the still point at the center of the wheel. That still point is not you or me or any things. In meditation, you're moving towards that center. You are letting go of all patterns: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. The patterns are killed, or 'completely stopped', in order to realize the still point in the center of the wheel - the silence. The letting go is not annihilation or a rejection, but it gives one the perspective and peace of mind to understand the whole from being at the center instead out on the circumference where you just get whirled about or stuck in a gumption rut. When refreshed, one moves forward smoothly and/or creatively. Imho. On Nov 13, MarshaV posted quotes on peace of mind: RMP has spoken of peace of mind in terms Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions ... But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category. Here is one Buddhist's take on right speech: dmb: Later on the 13th of Nov, Marsha ALMOST mentioned the actual topic (the difference between true rhetoric and false rhetoric): Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. ...But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category dmb says: Yea, what about right speech? What about RELEVANT thought and relevant speech? What kind of motive is operating in Marsha's replies? The first two responses were not only irrelevant but also deliberately designed to change the subject and generate hostility. Critchley's article should be of interest to anyone in a Pirsig discussion group - for obvious reasons. And yet Marsha has responded four times without even mentioning the article, without mentioning true or false rhetoric, without mentioning either Phaedrus (Plato's or Pirsig's), without mentioning Socrates, Plato, Critchley or any of the ideas in his article. What motive
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Greetings, More on right speech: --- The Basics of Right Speech As recorded in the Pali Canon, the historical Buddha taught that Right Speech had four parts: • Abstain from false speech; do not tell lies or deceive. • Do not slander others or speak in a way that causes disharmony or enmity. • Abstain from rude, impolite or abusive language. • Do not indulge in idle talk or gossip. Practice of these four aspects of Right Speech goes beyond simple thou shalt nots. It means speaking truthfully and honestly; speaking in a way to promote harmony and good will; using language to reduce anger and ease tensions; using language in a way that is useful. If your speech is not useful and beneficial, teachers say, it is better to keep silent. --- Right Listening In his book The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh said, Deep listening is the foundation of Right Speech. If we cannot listen mindfully, we cannot practice Right Speech. No matter what we say, it will not be mindful, because we'll be speaking only our own ideas and not in response to the other person. This reminds us that our speech is not just our speech. Communication is something that happens between people. We might think of speech as something we give to others, and if we think of it that way, what is the quality of that gift? Mindfulness includes mindfulness of what's going on inside ourselves. If we aren't paying attention to our own emotions and taking care of ourselves, tension and suffering build up. And then we explode. http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/rightspeech.htm --- On Nov 13, 2013, at 4:44 AM, MarshaV wrote: Greetings again, RMP has spoken of peace of mind in terms Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions ... But what of right speech??? It's the third factor in the eight-fold path. It might be worth the time to investigate what Buddhism presents concerning this category. Here is one Buddhist's take on right speech: Buddhism Right Speech For many of us, right speech is the most difficult of the precepts to honor. Yet practicing right speech is fundamental both to helping us become trustworthy individuals and to helping us gain mastery over the mind. So choose your words - and your motives for speaking - with care. An essay by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Right speech, explained in negative terms, means avoiding four types of harmful speech: lies (words spoken with the intent of misrepresenting the truth); divisive speech (spoken with the intent of creating rifts between people); harsh speech (spoken with the intent of hurting another person's feelings); and idle chatter (spoken with no purposeful intent at all). Notice the focus on intent: this is where the practice of right speech intersects with the training of the mind. Before you speak, you focus on why you want to speak. This helps get you in touch with all the machinations taking place in the committee of voices running your mind. If you see any unskillful motives lurking behind the committee's decisions, you veto them. As a result, you become more aware of yourself, more honest with yourself, more firm with yourself. You also save yourself from saying things that you'll later regret. In this way you strengthen qualities of mind that will be helpful in meditation, at the same time avoiding any potentially painful memories that would get in the way of being attentive to the present moment when the time comes to meditate. In positive terms, right speech means speaking in ways that are trustworthy, harmonious, comforting, and worth taking to heart. When you make a practice of these positive forms of right speech, your words become a gift to others. In response, other people will start listening more to what you say, and will be more likely to respond in kind. This gives you a sense of the power of your actions: the way you act in the present moment does shape the world of your experience. You don't need to be a victim of past events. For many of us, the most difficult part of practicing right speech lies in how we express our sense of humor. Especially here in America, we're used to getting laughs with exaggeration, sarcasm, group stereotypes, and pure silliness -- all classic examples of wrong speech. If people get used to these sorts of careless humor, they stop listening carefully to what we say. In this way, we cheapen our own discourse. Actually, there's enough irony in the state of the world that we don't need to exaggerate or be sarcastic. The greatest humorists are the ones who simply make us look directly at the way things are. Expressing our humor in ways that are truthful, useful, and wise may require thought and effort, but when we master this sort of wit we find that the effort is well spent. We've sharpened our own minds and have
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Greetings, Of the talk about dukkha being like a spinning wheel? From Anthony McWatt's 'MoQ Textbook' The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to propel it, the cart would not move forward at all. (Pirsig, 1997a) The Ultimate Truth (Quality) is something each individual must realize; it is the still point at the center of the wheel. That still point is not you or me or any things. In meditation, you're moving towards that center. You are letting go of all patterns: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. The patterns are killed, or 'completely stopped', in order to realize the still point in the center of the wheel - the silence. The letting go is not annihilation or a rejection, but it gives one the perspective and peace of mind to understand the whole from being at the center instead out on the circumference where you just get whirled about or stuck in a gumption rut. When refreshed, one moves forward smoothly and/or creatively. Imho. Marsha On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:54 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Yet, how does RMP state morality can be served? RMP: While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served. ... When Phaedrus first went to India he'd wondered why, if this passage of enlightenment into pure Dynamic Quality was such a universal reality, did it only occur in certain parts of the world and not others? At the time he'd thought this was proof that the whole thing was just Oriental religious baloney, the equivalent of a magic land called 'heaven' that Westerners go to if they are good and get a ticket from the priests. Now he saw that enlightenment is distributed in all parts of the world just as the color yellow is distributed in all parts of the world, but some cultures accept it and others screen out recognition of it. (LILA, Chapter 32) On Nov 9, 2013, at 2:34 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley, Hans Jonas professor of philosophy at the New School for Social Research in New York. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 The intention of the “Phaedrus”.., as Alexander Nehemas has convincingly suggested, is to inflame philosophical eros in Phaedrus that gives him the ability to distinguish bad rhetoric, of the kinds found in Lysias’s speech and in Socrates’s first speech, from true rhetoric, of the kind found in the second speech and then analyzed in the second half of the dialogue. ...The opposite of a self-contradiction, the “Phaedrus” is a performative self-enactment of philosophy. If eros is a force that shapes the philosopher, then rhetoric is the art by which the philosopher persuades the non-philosopher to assume philosophical eros, to incline their soul towards truth. But to do this does not entail abandoning the art of rhetoric or indeed sophistry, which teaches that art, although it does so falsely. Philosophy uses true rhetoric against false rhetoric. The subject matter of the “Phaedrus” is rhetoric, true rhetoric. ... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] True rhetoric and false rhetoric
Yet, how does RMP state morality can be served? RMP: While sustaining biological and social patterns Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely And then follow Dynamic Quality And morality will be served. ... When Phaedrus first went to India he'd wondered why, if this passage of enlightenment into pure Dynamic Quality was such a universal reality, did it only occur in certain parts of the world and not others? At the time he'd thought this was proof that the whole thing was just Oriental religious baloney, the equivalent of a magic land called 'heaven' that Westerners go to if they are good and get a ticket from the priests. Now he saw that enlightenment is distributed in all parts of the world just as the color yellow is distributed in all parts of the world, but some cultures accept it and others screen out recognition of it. (LILA, Chapter 32) On Nov 9, 2013, at 2:34 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote: When Socrates Met Phaedrus: Eros in Philosophy, by Simon Critchley, Hans Jonas professor of philosophy at the New School for Social Research in New York. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/when-socrates-met-phaedrus-eros-in-philosophy/?_r=0 The intention of the “Phaedrus”.., as Alexander Nehemas has convincingly suggested, is to inflame philosophical eros in Phaedrus that gives him the ability to distinguish bad rhetoric, of the kinds found in Lysias’s speech and in Socrates’s first speech, from true rhetoric, of the kind found in the second speech and then analyzed in the second half of the dialogue. ...The opposite of a self-contradiction, the “Phaedrus” is a performative self-enactment of philosophy. If eros is a force that shapes the philosopher, then rhetoric is the art by which the philosopher persuades the non-philosopher to assume philosophical eros, to incline their soul towards truth. But to do this does not entail abandoning the art of rhetoric or indeed sophistry, which teaches that art, although it does so falsely. Philosophy uses true rhetoric against false rhetoric. The subject matter of the “Phaedrus” is rhetoric, true rhetoric. ... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 10 Myths About Meditation
Ron, That's great. There is all different techniques for meditating and different types of experiences gained from it, but it is good to know you are talking from actual experience, whatever that may be, rather than just stuff you've read. Bravo! Marsha On Nov 9, 2013, at 10:03 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: All the time Sent from my iPhone On Nov 8, 2013, at 2:35 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, We disagree on a few points, but such is life. The differences, I presume, are due to our different static life histories and present circumstances and present experiences. Do you meditate on a regular basis? Marsha On Nov 8, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, Meditation is a useful tool in The clarification of thoughts. Reflection is another useful tool To critically examine our actions, It would be misleading to assert Them as antidote (quick fix) or a Mirror ( implying objective detachment ) plus these ideas Don't hang together well with Idea of all static quality is illusion, All perception is confined to the Human condition and to be human Is to exist within social pattern (Self). there is no self as it really is There is no reality as it really is. There is no pure perception. That mirror is all ways a funhouse mirror At best. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 7, 2013, at 3:09 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, Meditation is the great antidote to ignorance. It allows us to see ourselves plainly as we are, as if standing before a large clear mirror. Nothing is hidden. If the movements of the body and mental processes are observed intelligently and with an open mind, one soon becomes aware of the mystery in life. http://buddhismnow.com/2013/07/05/first-steps-buddhist-meditation/ Moron? I am often confronted by my own ignorances, Ron, how about you? If you have more to say about 'a myth of meditation' being to perceive reality as it is, I would be very interested in your comments. In what way do you think this? Personally, I'd say Ultimate Reality can be equated to Dynamic Quality, the unpatterned, the indeterminate. But you may have a very different way of understanding these things, and that's okay and, I'm sure, interesting. So what do you think? http://buddhismnow.com/category/buddhist/cartoons/ Marsha snip... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 10 Myths About Meditation
Andre, It was the best I could do with Ron's rather abbreviated comment: --- On Nov 8, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Ron Kulp wrote: Marsha, Meditation is a useful tool in The clarification of thoughts. Reflection is another useful tool To critically examine our actions, It would be misleading to assert Them as antidote (quick fix) or a Mirror ( implying objective detachment ) plus these ideas Don't hang together well with Idea of all static quality is illusion, All perception is confined to the Human condition and to be human Is to exist within social pattern (Self). there is no self as it really is There is no reality as it really is. There is no pure perception. That mirror is all ways a funhouse mirror At best. --- What kind of meaning would you have me fabricate out of this post? I'm sure he knows the difference between a simile and the verb 'is'. Beyond that, I am not going to guess at the point of his negative statements. And further beyond that, he's entitled to his opinion. Don't you have an intellectual topic you'd like to present, rather than your normal whining? Marsha On Nov 9, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Andre wrote: Marsha to Ron: We disagree on a few points, but such is life. The differences, I presume, are due to our different static life histories and present circumstances and present experiences. Do you meditate on a regular basis? Ron: All the time. Andre: Yes, what else can Ron do when stretching Lucy's patterns a bit. He gets the following answer from this same pattern: 'Maybe you perceive what it isn't. Or maybe you perceive both what it is and what it isn't. Or neither what it is nor what it isn't. Pick your favorite analogy to explain.' I mean, that, together with the answer given to Ron above just absolutely kills any decent discussion. A half baked piece of drivel to blame our 'different static life histories' and an even worse attempted rendition of Nagarjuna's tetralemma. It's a waste of time talking to Lucy on this discuss. She appears to place herself above learning, above correction, above decency and, to top it all, above the MoQ. Hence her pursuit to move 'beyond' it as previously stated. Any question from someone is answered by a question from Lucy making it clear that she is not interested in an answer. It is fake interest. She's only interested in her mirror image. What on earth she's doing here I do not know. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 10 Myths About Meditation
Andre, Who are you? How am I? I might try to respond to a specific and thoughtful question, otherwise I am not interested in you blathering. Marsha On Nov 9, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Marsha to Andre: It was the best I could do with Ron's rather abbreviated comment: Andre: Bull! Now you are blaming Ron and not looking at your own incompetence. I had said: 'I mean, that, together with the answer given to Ron above just absolutely kills any decent discussion. A half baked piece of drivel to blame our 'different static life histories' and an even worse attempted rendition of Nagarjuna's tetralemma. It's a waste of time talking to Lucy on this discuss. She appears to place herself above learning, above correction, above decency and, to top it all, above the MoQ. Hence her pursuit to move 'beyond' it as previously stated.' You are not confining this type of drivel to Ron either. You do it with every poster here. I am sure you are not aware of the implications of what you are saying. Or you possibly are but just do not care one iota. You suggest that NO DISCUSSION, NO MEANINGFUL EXCHANGE, NO REAL UNDERSTANDING IS POSSIBLE BETWEEN TWO HUMAN BEINGS. You are speaking from monologue. That is what meditation essentially entails. This is a discussion site talking ABOUT shared understandings and misunderstandings. Boy oh boy, no wonder you see the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the horrors of the holocaust as an illusion. And all Pirsig attempted to do was to improve the world a little bit through his MoQ. Wow, you are sure making a mess of things in the name of (your own version of) MoQ, Nagarjuna and one's 'different static life histories'. Shame really. Over and out. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 10 Myths About Meditation
mirror ... Meditation is the great antidote to ignorance. It allows us to see ourselves plainly as we are, as if standing before a large clear mirror. Nothing is hidden. If the movements of the body and mental processes are observed intelligently and with an open mind, one soon becomes aware of the mystery in life. http://buddhismnow.com/2013/07/05/first-steps-buddhist-meditation/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 10 Myths About Meditation
Ron, We disagree on a few points, but such is life. The differences, I presume, are due to our different static life histories and present circumstances and present experiences. Do you meditate on a regular basis? Marsha On Nov 8, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Marsha, Meditation is a useful tool in The clarification of thoughts. Reflection is another useful tool To critically examine our actions, It would be misleading to assert Them as antidote (quick fix) or a Mirror ( implying objective detachment ) plus these ideas Don't hang together well with Idea of all static quality is illusion, All perception is confined to the Human condition and to be human Is to exist within social pattern (Self). there is no self as it really is There is no reality as it really is. There is no pure perception. That mirror is all ways a funhouse mirror At best. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 7, 2013, at 3:09 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, Meditation is the great antidote to ignorance. It allows us to see ourselves plainly as we are, as if standing before a large clear mirror. Nothing is hidden. If the movements of the body and mental processes are observed intelligently and with an open mind, one soon becomes aware of the mystery in life. http://buddhismnow.com/2013/07/05/first-steps-buddhist-meditation/ Moron? I am often confronted by my own ignorances, Ron, how about you? If you have more to say about 'a myth of meditation' being to perceive reality as it is, I would be very interested in your comments. In what way do you think this? Personally, I'd say Ultimate Reality can be equated to Dynamic Quality, the unpatterned, the indeterminate. But you may have a very different way of understanding these things, and that's okay and, I'm sure, interesting. So what do you think? http://buddhismnow.com/category/buddhist/cartoons/ Marsha On Nov 6, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: My fav explanation You are a moron Yet not Yet a total moron Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:53 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Ron, Maybe you perceive what it isn't. Or maybe you perceive both what it is and what it isn't. Or neither what it is nor what it isn't. Pick your favorite analogy to explain. Awareness is the key. But what does the word mean to you? To most people, perhaps, it denotes an acknowledgement of that which is going on around them in a general sort of way. In the context of meditation, however, it means ‘waking up’, becoming acutely sensitive, knowing, feeling, living the moment in its pristine state, sensing colours and contours, sounds, textures, smells, recognising tendencies within oneself yet resisting the pull to be controlled by them — this is meditation, to begin with at least. http://buddhismnow.com/2013/07/05/first-steps-buddhist-meditation/ Marsha On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:37 AM, Ron Kulp wrote: Another myth is that meditation will allow one To perceive reality as it is. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2013, at 3:18 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: With more than seven billion minds active every moment, there are endless streams of thoughts in these minds on every aspect of creation. Some thoughts perceive reality the way it is, some are imagination, and some are simply misconceptions. While there are misconceptions and myths about many topics, one of the most popular topics is meditation. Say the word, meditation and all kinds of images and notions come up. Is this for me? I can't sit for long hours. Who wants to meditate anyway? Here are some of the most common myths about meditation: Myth #1: Meditation is concentration Meditation is actually deconcentration. Concentration is a result of meditation. Concentration requires effort, while meditation is absolute relaxation of the mind. Meditation is letting go, and when that happens, you are in a state of deep rest. When the mind is relaxed, we can concentrate better. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bhanu-narasimhan/meditation-myths_b_4170727.html ___ ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] 10 Myths About Meditation
Ron, Meditation is the great antidote to ignorance. It allows us to see ourselves plainly as we are, as if standing before a large clear mirror. Nothing is hidden. If the movements of the body and mental processes are observed intelligently and with an open mind, one soon becomes aware of the mystery in life. http://buddhismnow.com/2013/07/05/first-steps-buddhist-meditation/ Moron? I am often confronted by my own ignorances, Ron, how about you? If you have more to say about 'a myth of meditation' being to perceive reality as it is, I would be very interested in your comments. In what way do you think this? Personally, I'd say Ultimate Reality can be equated to Dynamic Quality, the unpatterned, the indeterminate. But you may have a very different way of understanding these things, and that's okay and, I'm sure, interesting. So what do you think? http://buddhismnow.com/category/buddhist/cartoons/ Marsha On Nov 6, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: My fav explanation You are a moron Yet not Yet a total moron Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:53 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Ron, Maybe you perceive what it isn't. Or maybe you perceive both what it is and what it isn't. Or neither what it is nor what it isn't. Pick your favorite analogy to explain. Awareness is the key. But what does the word mean to you? To most people, perhaps, it denotes an acknowledgement of that which is going on around them in a general sort of way. In the context of meditation, however, it means ‘waking up’, becoming acutely sensitive, knowing, feeling, living the moment in its pristine state, sensing colours and contours, sounds, textures, smells, recognising tendencies within oneself yet resisting the pull to be controlled by them — this is meditation, to begin with at least. http://buddhismnow.com/2013/07/05/first-steps-buddhist-meditation/ Marsha On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:37 AM, Ron Kulp wrote: Another myth is that meditation will allow one To perceive reality as it is. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2013, at 3:18 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: With more than seven billion minds active every moment, there are endless streams of thoughts in these minds on every aspect of creation. Some thoughts perceive reality the way it is, some are imagination, and some are simply misconceptions. While there are misconceptions and myths about many topics, one of the most popular topics is meditation. Say the word, meditation and all kinds of images and notions come up. Is this for me? I can't sit for long hours. Who wants to meditate anyway? Here are some of the most common myths about meditation: Myth #1: Meditation is concentration Meditation is actually deconcentration. Concentration is a result of meditation. Concentration requires effort, while meditation is absolute relaxation of the mind. Meditation is letting go, and when that happens, you are in a state of deep rest. When the mind is relaxed, we can concentrate better. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bhanu-narasimhan/meditation-myths_b_4170727.html ___ ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] finger's pointing
O lady, when the tipped cup of the moon blessed you You became soft fire with a cloud's grace; The difficult stars swam for eyes in your face; You stood, and your shadow was my place: You turned, your shadow turned to ice O my lady. O lady, when the sea caressed you You were a marble of foam, but dumb. When will the stone open its tomb? When will the waves give over their foam? You will not die, nor come home, O my lady. O lady, when the wind kissed you You made him music for you were a shaped shell. I follow the waters and the wind still Since my heart heard it and all to pieces fell Which your lovers stole, meaning ill, O my lady. O lady, consider when I shall have lost you The moon's full hands, scattering waste, The sea's hands, dark from the world's breast, The world's decay where the wind's hands have passed, And my head, worn out with love, at rest In my hands, and my hands full of dust, O my lady. (Ted Hughes, 'Song') Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] consciousness
Hi Joe, I'd say meditation is the tuning fork. To practice meditation/mindfulness is to pursue Quality, both Dynamic and static, beyond the limitations of language. You don't meditate to become anything, you meditate to see how value and mind and body interact (its nature, the nature of self and all things). Seeing how they relate to each other, you gain personal insight into what causes gumption traps (suffering) and that abandoning the cause will end those traps and the accompanying suffering. Marsha On Nov 5, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi MarshaV and All, Out of tune!!!. The reality of DQ/SQ! I do not know that there is a tuning fork for DQ/SQ? Definition is out of tune in DQ/SQ metaphysics. I surmise that there must be an understanding of DQ/SQ that is not out of tune beyond definition since metaphysics are king.. The search continues for the in tune-warped reality DQ/SQ. I experience the indefinable! Joe On 1sq1/4/13 11:42 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: For this, for everything, we are out of tune. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
[MD] 10 Myths About Meditation
With more than seven billion minds active every moment, there are endless streams of thoughts in these minds on every aspect of creation. Some thoughts perceive reality the way it is, some are imagination, and some are simply misconceptions. While there are misconceptions and myths about many topics, one of the most popular topics is meditation. Say the word, meditation and all kinds of images and notions come up. Is this for me? I can't sit for long hours. Who wants to meditate anyway? Here are some of the most common myths about meditation: Myth #1: Meditation is concentration Meditation is actually deconcentration. Concentration is a result of meditation. Concentration requires effort, while meditation is absolute relaxation of the mind. Meditation is letting go, and when that happens, you are in a state of deep rest. When the mind is relaxed, we can concentrate better. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bhanu-narasimhan/meditation-myths_b_4170727.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
