subject:"\[TruthTalk\] Spiritual death"

And since it is the spiritual condition under
discussion, this would be "spiritually dead" right JD?

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:27:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already"
--
kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point.
JdFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Izzy asks
Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as
Savior and Lord?

Okay, I willaddress your
question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your
question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption
that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects,
the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can
then address that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept
that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer
your question in the form it was structured.
In other words, I stumped you, huh?
J

When the biblical authors speak to
living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking
metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers
had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of
being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their
personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being.
So you think a person cannot be
spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically
alive, he is also spiritually alive???
He is speaking metaphorically
about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former
existencein the depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of
the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to
remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state.
Agreed, of course.

I hope this will satisfy your
request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this
discussion. No, not really, but I
think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the
holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have
to give up and agree with me once in a while.
J

Thank you for your patience and
the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse
with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless
you, Absolutely likewise,
Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable.
izzy

Bill

judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the
Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to
glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Of course they did JD, and some even explain what they
mean. We have Jesus discourse with Nicodemus
in John 3 where hejuxtaposes spiritual with
physical birth; andan object lesson is given for this in Gal
4:29
where two of Abrahams sons - one born offlesh and
the other born of the spirit are contrasted. The child of flesh
persecuting the one born of the spirit just as the
flesh always strives against the spirit. 1 Peter 1:23 speaks
of
being born again not of corruptible seed but of
incorruptible. So what is the
problem??? Water Baptism
alone may symbolize something but Mark 16:16 spells it
out. The one who believes and is baptized is saved.
If they believe not they are damned. Baptism is
not mentioned in part B because it is possible for someone to
be baptized and be damned. judyt

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:07:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were
sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the
other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born
again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have
thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in
Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical
teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk
or act like them on some level.JD

From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]

JD, I give you scripture (You must be born
again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning
another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or
not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

So, no scripture. Thanks
for the admission. Outer space? John
3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be
clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

In the above, "He who does
the truth" is complimented by "...they have been
done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part
of the reconciliation of all
things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift
is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes
manifestly clear
that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that
we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals
that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God.

JD
-Original
Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject:
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

"from below" is the
alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence
is from outer space. iz

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17
AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death

And where is this "born from
below" in the text, or does this matter to you?

The "birth from above" or
"new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our
lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish
-- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !!
(John 3:21).

-Original
Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul
2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Footnotes in the New King
James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable
translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English
translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again."

Terry wrote:
Born
again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you
were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second
time, wasn't the second time born "again"?

judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the
Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to
glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved.

What?

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...
1 PETER 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 JN 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 JN 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 JN 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

JN 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level.

JD

 -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death






JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death








So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." 



In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that
 this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. 



JD
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

"from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death





And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? 



The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21).



JD


-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 



JD

==

Terry wrote: Born again is correct.



Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?












__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-30 Thread ShieldsFamily




Apparently you missed the post recently where I said we just 
baptized 193 people at our church JD. Regarding your last sentence, I'm 
all for it--why don't you give it a try? izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:07 
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] 
Spiritual death



I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent 
into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other 
evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in 
order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown 
water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and 
have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical 
teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or 
act like them on some level.

JD

 -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 
29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Spiritual death






JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and 
then you tell me it doesn?t count because 
there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a 
biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy





From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 
AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death








So, no scripture. Thanks for 
the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 
He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly 
seen, that they have been done in God." 




In the above, "He who does 
the truth" is complimented by "...they have been 
done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of 
the reconciliation of all 
things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift 
is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes 
manifestly clear 
that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we 
are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that 
all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. 




JD
-Original 
Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: 
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

"from below" is the 
alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence 
is from outer space. iz




From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 
AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death





And where is this "born from 
below" in the text, or does this matter to you? 




The "birth from above" or 
"new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. 
And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that 
God has been our partner all along !! (John 
3:21).



JD


-Original 
Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 
04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 


  
  
  
  Footnotes in the New King James 
  and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable 
  translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English 
  translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 
  
  
  
  
  JD
  
  ==

Terry wrote: 
Born 
again is correct.



Izzy responds: 
If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the 
second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.'Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. The threecannot be separated and survive. THAT is why the physical body will be raised --- because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5),

You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. Many argue thatman is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise.

Since man is a spirit filled being (John 3:21; Phil 2:12-13) he destroys himself when he tries to live his life apart from God --- such is impossible and death is its only result. This is not some liberal teaching that takes us away from God !!! Such a conclusion is thoughtless bordering. Rather, it puts God in man and offers man a choice - to accept this gifted presence and live, or reject what cannot be rejected and die. This teaching insists upon repentance (a change of mind), preaching to the lost that they must stop thinking they are autonomous AND ACTING OUT THAT THOUGHTLESSNESS, and accept what is given to them and live as if LIFE were an integral part of who they are because tht is the way itis.

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:57:51 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

And since it is the spiritual condition under discussion, this would be "spiritually dead" right JD?

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:27:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already" --
kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. JdFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Izzy asks Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord?

Okay, I willaddress your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J

When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existencein th
e depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course.

I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J

Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy

Bill

judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Debbie wrote:
 David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post
 you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen
 to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance).

Thank you for the kind words, Debbie, but now my curiosity is piqued.  Do 
you have a system of understanding spiritual inheritance?  If so, please 
discuss it with us.  Address the following points:

1.  Is there such a thing as spirit?  My answer would be yes.

2.  Where does the spirit come from?  Is it inherited, something passed down 
from Adam?  My answer would be no.  God creates the spirit for each 
individual that comes into this world at the time the individual is born.

3.  Are any spiritual traits of parents passed down to their children 
through some kind of transferrence involving the conception of life in the 
womb?  My answer would be no.

I offer my answers above, not on any authority, but on my current 
perspective which is subject to change when better information comes my way. 
I look forward to hearing your perspective on this subject.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death




On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:21:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical 
  body - the correct word would be "dead" or 
  "death.'
  
  jt: Why not allow scripture to interpret scripture 
  JD? Death scripturally can be either the absence of spiritual
  life or the end of days absence of breath because of 
  sickness and disease or old age. Both are valid.
  
  Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the 
  metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, 
  the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to 
  man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit.That is what 
  he is. The threecannot be separated and survive. 
  
  
  jt: Why not see what the scriptures say about this 
  and if they don't agree with Bill then you can decide whose
  report you will believe. 1 Thess 5:23,24 speaks 
  of the God of Peace sanctifying us completely and identifies the
  complete man as spirit, soul, and body. All 
  three are to be preserved blameless. Now if they are not to 
  be
  thought of separately then why are these verses in 
  the Bible and why does Heb 4:12 speak of the separation
  of spirit and soul. I would think these issues 
  are important since the Word of God addresses them.
  
  THAT is why the physical body will be 
  raised - because there is no life for man apart from the three and 
  no 
  eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that 
  "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), 
  
  jt: I believe you are wrong about this JD. The 
  rich man in Hades who wanted Lazarus to come and help him- 
  did he have his body down there with him? When 
  Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison - where are
  their bodies? This is important - If you can't 
  identify flesh then how are you going to keep from walking in it?
  You will never get out of captivity that way and the 
  body you are in right now is not going to heaven the way
  it is.
  
  You are using a non-bliblical word 
  (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in 
  
  scripture at all, which is not fine. 
  
  jt: And you and your friend use a non-biblical word 
  to express a tritheism that is not taught in scripture. Godhead
  is the scriptural term and mankind is also a triune 
  being. How is it that you can accept all of these 
  non-biblical
  concepts concerning the Godhead(where does 
  anyone get the idea that there is dancing going on?) and yet
  refuse to accept the concept that our bodies contain 
  a soul and spirit which harmonize and work together the
  same way the Godhead does ie none is complete without 
  the others and they submit one to the other.
  
  Many argue thatman is given choices in life that are "spiritual" 
  and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" 
  because man cannot be separated from such. 
  
  jt: I wouldn't argue with your point above, but I 
  would add that there are two spiritual kingdoms vying for the
  allegiance of manking and we need to know which one 
  we are communing with and walking in lock-step with.
  
  As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this 
  - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long 
  as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each 
  of its two ontological states -- body 
  and soul living together until judgment day.We are one being, 
  ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other 
  wise.
  
  jt: Now you are verging off into philosophy JD. 
  Howare we ever going to try the spirits and prove what is of 
  God
  if you are constantly going off into 
  mixture? Ontology is a metaphysical 
  term. Can we use the same plainness of
  speech Paul spoke of in 1 Cor to discuss spiritual 
  realities - Please JD?
  
  Since man is a spirit filled being (John 3:21; Phil 2:12-13) 
  he destroys himself when he tries to live his life apart 
  from God - such is impossible and death is its only result. 
  
  jt: Ppl can be demonized for a long time before God's 
  mercy runs it's course and physical death ensues. Look at
  how long he gave the Amorite nations - 400 years 
  wasn't it? Before He said - That's it. Today we have all 
  kinds
  of weird spiritualities calling themself godly who 
  will also inherit the wind unless they repent and turn.
  
  This is not some liberal teaching that takes us away from God 
  !!! Such a conclusion is thoughtless bordering. 
  
  jt: Any teaching that ignores or negates God's 
  holiness and his justice and focuses upon his love to the 
  exclusion
  of all else is a liberal teaching and will take 
  people away from God.
  
  Rather, it puts God in man and offers man a choice - to 
  accept this gifted presence and 
  live, or reject what cannot be rejected and die. 
  
  jt: Only one problem JD. God does not go where He is 
  not invited - just because the worlds (and we) are held

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

John wrote:
 ... there is not a dual reality when it comes to man.
 He is mind, body/soul, and spirit.   That is what he is.
 The three cannot be separated and survive.

Even if this were true, this does not mean that we cannot talk about what 
each part contributes.  When talking about the physical body, I can talk 
about different organs and tissues, whether they be the heart, the lungs, 
the stomach, the brain, the muscles, the skin, etc.  Being reductionistic is 
not a sin and it is not improper even if the body cannot exist without all 
parts connected and functioning together.

John wrote:
 THAT is why the physical body will be raised  ---
 because there is no life for man apart from the three and
 no eternal life apart from God.   That which is flesh and \
 that which is spirit  IS A STATE OF MIND   (Rom 8:5),

The state of mind is described as either carnal or spiritual, but this does 
not mean that there is not a real flesh and a real spirit that is being 
talked about.  You cannot use the context of Romans 8 to deny the reality of 
the physical body or to deny the reality of the spirit.

John wrote:
 You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in
 and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught
 in scripture at all, which is not fine.

Sorry, but the dualism is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. 
I don't have time to write a book for you right now showing it everywhere. 
If you are interested, ask, and I will post passages as I have time.  You 
can start with the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground, and what 
it took to make him alive.

John wrote:
 Many argue that man is given choices in life that
 are spiritual and non-spiritual.

Right.  This is the state of mind that you referenced in Romans 8.  Men can 
mind things that are spiritual or mind things that are not spiritual 
(carnal).

John wrote:
 ALL  choices are spiritual  because man cannot
 be separated from such.

Wrong, John.  Read Romans 8:5 again.  They that are after the flesh do mind 
the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit the things of 
the spirit.  Some choices are spiritual (motivated by the spirit) and some 
choices are carnal (motivated by the flesh).

John wrote:
 As far as I am concerned  (and Bill might not agree with
 this -  input please), your use of spiritual is fine as long
 as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an
 autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and
 soul living together until judgment day.   We are one being,
 ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this
 or teaches other wise.

Scripture certainly does teach dualism.  Please do not be so ignorant.  Have 
you not read in Revelation 6, how the souls of those who were slain were 
under the altar of God, asking how long they would wait for the judgment? 
These were conscious souls under the altar of God in heaven?  Where were 
their bodies?  In the ground on earth.  And have you not read Luke 16, how 
when Lazarus died, the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, but the rich 
man found himself in hell?  Where was the rich man's body?  Jesus says his 
body was buried.  If you are going to rebuke anyone for teaching dualism, 
you had better start with rebuking Jesus.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-30 Thread Blainerb473






Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky 
was. (If I said he did,would you argue the 
point?:).However,he oncepointed up into 
the night skytowards the constellation Sagittarius,and said, 
"God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to 
discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of 
the Milky Way Galaxy.That seems a logical place for God to live, but 
then that is IMHO.
Blainerb

In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. 
  Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, 
  Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, 
  like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? 
  iz
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 
  PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: 
  [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
  
  
  
  Thamas had a conversation with 
  Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes 
  requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not 
  sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without 
  ceasing." If you think pryaer 
  is talking --you are lost on this one. Prayer is much 
  more a communion with God than is talking to Him. 
  
  
  
  
  JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-07-30 Thread Debbie Sawczak

I can't say I've thought about it with any thoroughness before (which is why 
I didn't want to commit myself to an endorsement of that content of your 
post). I will do some thinking about it now, though, and may return to it as 
per your request. My answer to your first question will obviously constrain 
all the rest so that I might have to recast them.


Debbie


- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death



Debbie wrote:

David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post
you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen
to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance).


Thank you for the kind words, Debbie, but now my curiosity is piqued.  Do
you have a system of understanding spiritual inheritance?  If so, please
discuss it with us.  Address the following points:

1.  Is there such a thing as spirit?  My answer would be yes.

2.  Where does the spirit come from?  Is it inherited, something passed 
down

from Adam?  My answer would be no.  God creates the spirit for each
individual that comes into this world at the time the individual is born.

3.  Are any spiritual traits of parents passed down to their children
through some kind of transferrence involving the conception of life in the
womb?  My answer would be no.

I offer my answers above, not on any authority, but on my current
perspective which is subject to change when better information comes my 
way.

I look forward to hearing your perspective on this subject.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Kevin wrote:
 Nice THEORY Where are the facts?
 You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore
 than proving the Tooth Fairy!

I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5.  More facts are 
available to those who have a heart that desires to learn.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

David Miller wrote:
 Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine.
 He is saying that you have been influenced by
 Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints
 without realizing it.  How?  Because you live in this world
 and have grown up around ministers and school systems
 that have been touched by him in one way or another.

Judy wrote:
 Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on
 constantly which is that noone can know what they think
 they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradicts
 scripture itself because it is written The spiritual man judges
 ALL things yet he himself is rightly judged by noone (1 Cor 2:15)

This would only be true if learning ONLY happened in that way.  I'm 
certainly not saying that.  Do you recognize this ambient effect of our 
culture which teaches us things and gives us our perspective?  Does it have 
ANY influence in your life whatsoever?

Judy wrote:
 I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in
 fact I just had to ask my husband who he was.  Guy Fawkes
 would mean more to me since I was raised in the British system \
 and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day.

Ok, so you have a different culture.  Can you understand how my perspective 
of the word Benedict might be different than either you or the new Pope 
because of my culture?  Guy Fawkes is not somebody I know of from culture, 
but only from history books.  Perhaps you have a perspective about him that 
is negative from your culture?  Do people in your culture sling his name 
around like they do Benedict Arnold here in the United States?

David Miller wrote:
 The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and
 society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through
 secondary sources.  You may never have read him or even
 heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could
 have come down to you.  ... The third concept is, of course, that
 the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did
 to Augustine.

Judy wrote:
 Are you kidding?  At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like
 that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved
 to God until after I was born again

The point is that there are concepts that have been thrust upon you by 
others that find their way into your mind.  You attend a Presbyterian 
church.  Whether you realize it or not, your mind is probably bombarded 
often with the teachings of both Augustine and Calvin.  Do you truly not 
recognize this?

The Bible says:
Colossians 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after 
the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after 
Christ.

Does not this passage indicate that philsophy and traditions of men impact 
upon us?  Does it not warn us of this effect?  Clearly this work is upon us 
whether we like it or not, or the Scriptures would not warn us to beware of 
it.

Judy wrote:
 What other way is there to explain what took place
 in the garden David?  Adam did not die physically for
 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind
 as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam
 died but not physically.

One other way to understand this is that he was delivered over to the spirit 
of death on that day.  He died, not in the sense that he dropped dead 
immediately, but in the sense that he was delivered over to the power of 
death.  He became mortal and subject to sin, sickness, disease, and death.

Have you ever heard of a Jewish man disowning his son who converted to 
Christianity?  What does he say?  You are dead.  You are no longer my son. 
You are no longer in my life.  You are dead.

Does he mean that his son literally dropped dead?  No, he means that his 
relationship with him is over.

Did Adam die spiritually that day?  Yes, in a metaphoric way, he did.  Did 
Adam die physically that day?  Yes, in a metaphoric way, he did.  This is 
all that I am saying.

Judy wrote:
 Well yes, that is the way it works.  Both Adam and the
 creation were cursed at the same time and the curse is
 always implemented by the powers of darkness who only
 work death and destruction.  They never bless.  Actually
 biology responds to psychology and psychology responds
 to spirituality.

In a spiritual person, you are right about biology responding to psychology 
and psychology responding to spirituality.  However, in a carnal person, the 
reverse is true.  The psychology (soul) responds to the body and the spirit 
responds to the psychology.

Judy wrote:
 Prior to Adams sin noone would have wanted to stab anyone's
 heart Murder was not a reality until after the fall and neither was
 mortality.

Well, if you don't like the hypothetical, how about Adam falling off of a 
high cliff?  The point is that Adam cannot die unless he is mortal.  If God 
jumped off a cliff, guess what.  He would not die.  He is immortal.  If Adam 
jumped off a cliff before he had sinned, he would not have died.  That is my

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Judy wrote:
 David sins follow family trees, the characteristics of
 spirituality follow families.

This is true, but there are two types of sin sources that need to be 
considered.  There also are different mechanisms by which these are 
transferred to future generations.

The flesh has a sin nature which is transferred to children through 
chemicals in their genes called DNA.  Spirit, however, is not transferred by 
DNA.  Spirit is created by God and has nothing to do with the flesh.  This 
is why identical twins who have identical genetic material share many 
physical traits but are different in spirit (they have different 
personalities right from birth).

Judy wrote:
 That is the sin and iniquity we are conceived in (Ps 51)

Right, this refers to the sin nature of the flesh which is transferred via 
DNA to the children.

Judy wrote:
 and when ppl participate in the same sin that their ancestors
 \ did we see the movement of sin through the generations.
 This is called the old man or the carnal nature.

Ok, but the participation is something beyond just the inheritance of the 
sinful nature.  The inheritance aspect does not require participation in 
order to be recognized.  Participation then will involve other elements that 
are not inherited, spiritual elements, which might be the same spirits that 
operated in the ancestor.  Observing them and their influence in future 
generations does not mean that it was inherited from the parents.

Judy wrote:
 When the first Adam died, his body went back to the dust
 and a kingdom transferred by its fallen nature to his seed.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Are you saying that a kingdom was 
transferred when he died and his body went back to the dust?  If so, how 
would this be viewed as inheritance?  I don't see it as such, but as a 
transfer of authority in the same way that the Vice President takes over for 
the President when he dies.  I think you are confusing the issues of 
inheritance with familial authority.

Judy wrote:
 Generational sin is a spiritual rather than a psychological
 issue and acting it out always follows unless the child dies
 in infancy.

What foundation do you have for saying this?  Are all people subject to 
generational sin?

David Miller wrote:
 I believe in a concept of curses being passed on to future
 generations, but not in the same sense of inheritance as we
 find for physical inheritance.  It is only through authority that
 parents give to evil spirits through their sin that allows curses
 to be passed on.  How else do we understand the Lord's
 teaching in Ezekiel 18?

Judy wrote:
 Ezekiel 18 is exhorting these ppl to repent and turn so that
 generational iniquity willl not be their ruin.  It has always been
 true that we are judged for our own transgression; Vs26,27
 explain how when the wicked turn to righteousness or the
 righteous turn to wickedness each is judged/rewarded accordingly.

The point is that the Jews were using the same verse that you do to create a 
proverb that basically said the children's teeth were set on edge by the 
parents.  God hated this proverb.

Ezekiel 18:1-3 (1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
(2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel,
saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set
on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any
more to use this proverb in Israel.

Judy wrote:
 These ppl were falsely accusing God.

Yeah, they were accusing God of cursing the children because of the sins of 
the parents.  They were saying that the children had no choice but to sin 
because of what the parents had done.  They were using God's own Holy Word 
to teach this doctrine.

Ezekiel 18:19-20
(19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?
When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my
statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the
son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the
wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Judy wrote:
 Exactly - no problem there.  We don't have to walk in the
 iniquity of our fathers but most of us do because of ignorance.

Earlier you said that the children will walk in the iniquity of the fathers, 
unless they die in infancy.  It sounds to me like you are not being 
consistent, or perhaps I am not understanding you.

This is one passage that I think puts Calvinism back into proper 
perspective.  Doesn't the son bear the iniquity of the father?  God says, 
the son that hath done that which is lawful and right ... he shall surely 
live... the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

That seems a logical place for God to live

So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses?

God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14  Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky was. (If I said he did,would you argue the point?:).However,he oncepointed up into the night skytowards the constellation Sagittarius,and said, "God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO.
Blainerb

In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



Thamas had a conversation with Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without ceasing." If you think pryaer is talking --you are lost on this one. Prayer is much more a communion with God than is talking to Him. 




JD


		 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Facts to prove that JT was influenced by ...David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin wrote: Nice THEORY Where are the facts? You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy!I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to those who have a heart that desires to learn.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best
 spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death




Now that I would like to see - After all the 
accusations I've still not seen any factual information
showing howwhat I am sayingis the same as 
Augustine- in fact I found a whole list of 
things that 
are in conflict. He would have excommunicated me 
with the Donatists and other hereticks for sure.

Do you really think TT is a Magical Mystery Tour Kevin 
:) this is too funny. ROTFL

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Facts to prove that JT was influenced by ...David 
  Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  Kevin 
wrote: Nice THEORY Where are the facts? You nor BT can prove 
this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy!I gave you 
some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to 
those who have a heart that desires to learn.Peace be with 
you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with 
grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every 
man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to 
receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell 
him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
subscribed.
  __Do You 
  Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  http://mail.yahoo.com 
   
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the 
Lord, 
are changed into the same image from glory to 
glory, 
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Blaine wrote:
 ... pointing right into the center of the Milky
 Way Galaxy.  That seems a logical place for
 God to live, but then that is IMHO.

Why not the center of the universe instead of the center of the galaxy?  Why 
not the center of our solar system (the sun)?  Can you tell us a little more 
of your thinking?

By the way, the center of our galaxy is thought to have a massive black 
hole.  That sounds more like a place where maybe Satan lives.  Maybe Kevin 
also thinks that the center of our galaxy would be the logical place where 
Joseph Smith would point out is the home of his god.  :-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Kevin wrote:
 Facts to prove that JT was influenced by 

Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by 
Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.?  Why make an argument out of a 
truism?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death





So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may as 
well discontinue
the dialogue. jt


On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
Kevin wrote:  Facts to prove that JT was influenced by  
 Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by 
  Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an 
argument out  of a  truism?  Peace be with 
you. David Miller.   -- "Let your speech 
be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you  may know how you 
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  http://www.InnGlory.org  If 
you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
you will be unsubscribed. If you  have a friend who wants to join, 
tell him to send an e-mail to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he 
will be subscribed.  


 
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the 
Lord, 
are changed into the same image from glory to 
glory, 
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-07-30 Thread Debbie Sawczak




Yes; after all, that IS a sure sign of the end of 
the world!! (Or at least Judy's world.)

Debbie

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:02 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  Death
  
  
  So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may 
  as well discontinue
  the dialogue. jt
  
  
  On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
  Kevin wrote:  Facts to prove that JT was influenced by 
    Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been 
  influenced by   Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, 
  etc.? Why make an argument out  of a  truism? 
   Peace be with you. David Miller.   
  -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, 
  that you  may know how you ought to answer every man." 
  (Colossians 4:6)  http://www.InnGlory.org  If 
  you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
  you will be unsubscribed. If you  have a friend who wants to 
  join, tell him to send an e-mail to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he 
  will be subscribed.  
  
  
   
  judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the 
  Lord, 
  are changed into the same image from glory to 
  glory, 
  even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 
3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-30 Thread Terry Clifton





Kevin Deegan wrote:

  That seems a logical place for God to
live
  
  So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses?
  
  God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation
Pleiades. Reconciliation
page 14  Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 
  
  


Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub?
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Show me the FAXS

How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death




Good question - it appears as though to some people 

I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of 
God.
I'd like to see the facts myself. 
jt

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Show me the FAXS
  
  How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Kevin 
wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why 
would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by 
Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a 
truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. 
--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with 
salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this 
list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be 
unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an 
e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
  subscribed.
  __Do You 
  Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  http://mail.yahoo.com 
   
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the 
Lord, 
are changed into the same image from glory to 
glory, 
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Maybe she'll have to take a Break, go on a Vacation?Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Yes; after all, that IS a sure sign of the end of the world!! (Or at least Judy's world.)

Debbie

- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death


So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may as well discontinue
the dialogue. jt


On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kevin wrote:  Facts to prove that JT was influenced by   Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by   Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out  of a  truism?  Peace be with you. David Miller.   -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you  may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  http://www.InnGlory.org  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you  have a friend who wants to join, tell him
 to send an e-mail to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.  


 judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub? TerryKOLOB RECORDS
It is the Record Label of those Spiffy Clean veneer OSMONDS!
http://www.deuceofclubs.com/lps/kolob.htm

Well actually it is a really cool park
http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/zion/kolob_canyons.html

OR it is PLANET LDS!
Kolob governs all the planets which belong to the same order as the earth and is after the reckoning of the Lord's times, seasons and revolutions thereof. One revolution of Kolob is a day unto the Lord and one day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years on earth. 

Kolob means "the first creation." It is the name of the planet "nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." It is "first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. . . . One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth." Book of Abraham, pp. 34-35; Abra. 3:3-9. Mormon Doctrine, p.428

It is said that god also has a secret summer residence called "Area LDS" 
There, testing of Eternal progressions, fly byes, and first attempts at Organizing new planets are performed,just in case of those dreadful misfires that occur once in a while. You know how embarassing it is for a new god to blow it right spank in front of the whole council of gods.

And who could forget that GREAT HYMN of the faith?
If You Could Hie to Kolob, 284 - William W. Phelps
1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,Find out the generation Where Gods began to be? 
2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?Me thinks the Spirit whispers, No man has found pure space,Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place. 
3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race. 
4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth. 
5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;There is no end to being; There is no death above.There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;There is no end to being; There is no death above. 
Hear it here:
http://nowscape.com/mormon/images/If_You_Could_Hie_To_KOLOB_from_Levi_Sisemore.mid
It is said that Kolob may have been the INSPIRATION for this well known song!
http://solosong.net/wish.html

Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin Deegan wrote: 

That seems a logical place for God to live

So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses?

God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14  Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub?Terry
		 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:21:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.'

jt: Why not allow scripture to interpret scripture JD? Death scripturally can be either the absence of spiritual
life or the end of days absence of breath because of sickness and disease or old age. Both are valid.

LOL, Judy. You admonish me to "let scripture interpret scripture" and they you off me NO scripture.

Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts,
the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit.That is what
he is. The threecannot be separated and survive.

jt: Why not see what the scriptures say about this and if they don't agree with Bill then you can decide whose
report you will believe. 1 Thess 5:23,24 speaks of the God of Peace sanctifying us completely and identifies the
complete man as spirit, soul, and body. All three are to be preserved blameless. Now if they are not to be
thought of separately then why are these verses in the Bible

You have used my words if you believe that "total man" and "complet man" speak ofthe same unity. I do. My body is made up of physical components. The components of a man are body, soul and spirit.Man is not complete without all three.

and why does Heb 4:12 speak of the separation
of spirit and soul. This word of God can distinguish between, spirit and soul, between joints and marrow and between the thoughts of the heart and the intentions of the heart (often, two very different things.) This verse has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I would think these issues are important since the Word of God addresses them.

I agree, so lets use scripture that speaks to the subject at hand and stay on point, shall we?

THAT is why the physical body will be raised - because there is no life for man apart from the three and no
eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5),

jt: I believe you are wrong about this JD.

I was quoting scripture, Judy. Those who are of the flesh are those who HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON THINGS OF THE FLESH. Those who are of the Spirit have their minds set on things of the Spirit m Romans 8:5. You can believe I am wrong all you want -- but I am hanging with Paul on this one.

The rich man in Hades who wanted Lazarus to come and help him-
did he have his body down there with him?

No Judy -- he just had a tongue !!! I will be back. I have to go into the other room and laugh for a while.

When Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison - where are
their bodies? This is important - If you can't identify flesh then how are you going to keep from walking in it?
You will never get out of captivity that way and the body you are in right now is not going to heaven the way
it is. Of course it isn't. What in this world are you talking about. Our bodies will be raised and then transformed into some form of which we know nothing.

You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in
scripture at all, which is not fine.

jt: And you and your friend use a non-biblical word to express a tritheism that is not taught in scripture. Godhead
is the scriptural term

"Godhead" is an English interpretation of a biblical (read:Greek) word. In other words, "Godhead" is not a biblical word -- it is an interpretation. A better word may be "essence." "Trinity" is a non-bliblical word that gives us the FAther, the Son and the Spirit (that's three ) . When we say "the trinity" we are saying "the three."

and mankind is also a triune being. How is it that you can accept all of these non-biblical
concepts concerning the Godhead(where does anyone get the idea that there is dancing going on?) and yet
refuse to accept the concept that our bodies contain a soul and spirit which harmonize and work together the
same way the Godhead does ie none is complete without the others and they submit one to the other.

I am sorry, Judy, but there is nothing in the above with which I disagree. How does your point argue against mine/ I missed it.

Many argue thatman is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual"
because man cannot be separated from such.

jt: I wouldn't argue with your point above, but I would add that there are two spiritual kingdoms vying for the
allegiance of manking and we need to know which one we are communing with and walking in lock-step with.

Apparently the flat tire has been fixed and the auto is running down the road in good shape. Amen to the above.

As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long
as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Well, maybe this is part of the 90% between DM and myself but -- Judy, my dear,Calvanism is a definite part of your theology. Presbyterianism is Calvanism institutionalized. i do not think this is evil -- but it is true. When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true?

JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:23:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Good question - it appears as though to some people
I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God.
I'd like to see the facts myself. jt

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan openairmission@yahoo.com writes:

Show me the FAXS

How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true?

This has got to be a FIRST JD agrees with DM?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well, maybe this is part of the 90% between DM and myself but -- Judy, my dear,Calvanism is a definite part of your theology. Presbyterianism is Calvanism institutionalized. i do not think this is evil -- but it is true. When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true?

JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:23:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Good question - it appears as though to some people
I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God.
I'd like to see the facts myself. jt

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan openairmission@yahoo.com writes:

Show me the FAXS

How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

DM -- you should work to remove your own ignorance before continuing this discussion. I will wait until this ignorance (of yours) has been left behind.

JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:23:29 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

John wrote:
... there is not a dual reality when it comes to man.
He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is.
The three cannot be separated and survive.

Even if this were true, this does not mean that we cannot talk about what
each part contributes. When talking about the physical body, I can talk
about different organs and tissues, whether they be the heart, the lungs,
the stomach, the brain, the muscles, the skin, etc. Being reductionistic is
not a sin and it is not improper even if the body cannot exist without all
parts connected and functioning together.

John wrote:
THAT is why the physical body will be raised ---
because there is no life for man apart from the three and
no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and \
that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5),

The state of mind is described as either carnal or spiritual, but this does
not mean that there is not a real flesh and a real spirit that is being
talked about. You cannot use the context of Romans 8 to deny the reality of
the physical body or to deny the reality of the spirit.

John wrote:
You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in
and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught
in scripture at all, which is not fine.

Sorry, but the dualism is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
I don't have time to write a book for you right now showing it everywhere.
If you are interested, ask, and I will post passages as I have time. You
can start with the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground, and what
it took to make him alive.

John wrote:
Many argue that man is given choices in life that
are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual."

Right. This is the state of mind that you referenced in Romans 8. Men can
mind things that are spiritual or mind things that are not spiritual
(carnal).

John wrote:
ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot
be separated from such.

Wrong, John. Read Romans 8:5 again. "They that are after the flesh do mind
the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit the things of
the spirit." Some choices are spiritual (motivated by the spirit) and some
choices are carnal (motivated by the flesh).

John wrote:
As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with
this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long
as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an
autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and
soul living together until judgment day. We are one being,
ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this
or teaches other wise.

Scripture certainly does teach dualism. Please do not be so ignorant. Have
you not read in Revelation 6, how the souls of those who were slain were
under the altar of God, asking how long they would wait for the judgment?
These were conscious souls under the altar of God in heaven? Where were
their bodies? In the ground on earth. And have you not read Luke 16, how
when Lazarus died, the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, but the rich
man found himself in hell? Where was the rich man's body? Jesus says his
body was buried. If you are going to rebuke anyone for teaching dualism,
you had better start with rebuking Jesus.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:03
PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death

BT:Izzy, maybe you can help me out
here, but it seems to me that your eyes would need to have been opened prior
to this "born again" experience (that moment when you put your faith in
Jesus Christ) or you never would have had the ability to even have
thedesire to be receptive to the things of God. Do you understand what
I'm saying and can you help me out here?

Iz:
Well, Bill, maybe it was kind of like when youmarried your wife.
First you fell in love. And then you joined each other in
matrimony. The marriage part is like when you got born again and
became one. There
was a precursor, but it wasn't consummated until you were one spirit so to
speak.

I was alive when I fell in
love with my future bride. And I make no bones about it. You, on the other
hand, in order to be consistent, would have to argue that you were dead when
you fell in love with your future husband. H. I wonder what he saw in
you :)

BT:Paul tells
us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all
things have their being or ontological There you go
using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said
something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in
Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking
about. I used the term here to give that first statement some
context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to
speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My
gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when
they do it.

Iz:
I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started
because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual"
in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical
term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also,
use "nonbiblical" terms all the time.
Right?

You'd better check your
records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had
been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's
doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth
and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the
"libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had
a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about
biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I
denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same
post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my
appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of
my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this
thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had
attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not
the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in
Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere.
On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same
Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different
way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if
you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool,
'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this
one.

(? Am I looking at
the ontological me in the mirror, or at Izzys decaying physical body? Do
people get cosmetic surgery for ontological
bodies? Meanwhile
my body gets a day older every day, and a day closer to the grave. But my
spirit is renewed and growing every day. Thats why Ill be happy to
trade in the old model of my body for a new/improved version!) Yeah, I hear you there. I do hope God doesn't want
any brickin' done when I get to heaven though. And don't say he'll probably
stick me in the furnace! :) I laid brick in Minnesota one winter,
replacing burned-out walls inside oftaconite furnaces. If I stood in
one place too long, my boots would start on fire. Too hot for
me!!

Iz:
I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing
with me that our physical bodies really are dying,

Yes.

and
you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with
Christ at the moment? Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second 
one? iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] 
Spiritual death



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a 
viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation 
actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD



-Original Message-From: Bill Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 
Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death





Bill in Black

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  Izzy is 
  red:
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 
  PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  SNIP
  
  
  As it pertains to the 
  question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially 
  the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of 
  those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., 
  has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical 
  root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. 
  With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of 
  speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. 
  Such as Perichoresis 
  or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 
  3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well 
  taken.Much stress has been 
  placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious 
  experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to 
  "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament 
  witness. I?m 
  hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one 
  praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. 
   
  O:P
  
  
  
  The 
  language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians 
  use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that 
  event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in 
  actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to 
  conversion or "born again" experiences. I 
  believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I 
  probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I 
  consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating 
  it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being 
  "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the 
  context.The 
  truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for 
  that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of 
  the great and vicariousregeneration Book 
  chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 
  which 
  took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone 
  in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the 
  last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things 
  shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to 
  follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely 
  different way -- in a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential 
  correspondenceto our conversion 
  experience.
  
  
  
  Now let's 
  talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was 
  used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used 
  alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but 
  as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I 
  believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, 
  and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could 
  Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; 
  it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or 
  "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to 
  be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his 
  mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was 
  speaking aboutbeing born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth 
  and

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death







Iz: I'm 
sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me 
that our physical bodies really are dying, 
Yes.

  



and 
you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with 
Christ at the moment? Izzy 

Well, if I understand what you are getting at, 
this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your 
being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real 
and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of 
yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone 
else have this power. All existence is in Christ 
Jesus.It is 
in him that the real you exists. 
Bill


Izzy responds: So you are not being 
metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in 
Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death









  


BT:Paul tells 
us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all 
things have their being or ontological There you go 
using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said 
something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in 
Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking 
about. I used the term here to give that first statement some 
context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to 
speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My 
gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when 
they do it.

Iz: 
I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started 
because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" 
in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical 
term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, 
use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. 
Right?

You'd better check your 
records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had 
been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's 
doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth 
and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the 
"libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had 
a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about 
biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I 
denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same 
post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my 
appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of 
my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this 
thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had 
attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not 
the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in 
Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. 
On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same 
Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different 
way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if 
you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 
'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one.

Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on 
the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual 
death" Bill?

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a 
  viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation 
  actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 
  
  JD
  ==
Terry wrote: Born again is 
correct.

Izzy 
responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom 
above" the second time, wasn't the second time born 
"again"?

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God.

I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word?

"Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106
Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again."

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?

__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Good Morning Izzy :)

I've been watching your interaction here with interest
along with the hope that you will suceed in communicationg where I have
failed but so far it does not look good.

bt writes: You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started
when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as
authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death.

jt: Can you help me Izzy -How does one deal
with being called a hypocrite and a liar on
this public list continuously by a
professing believer who is just plain wrong? If I have
said this once, I must have said it at least 10 times. I have never ever

read Augustine and nothing I believe is a doctrine from
him. I study the scriptures and my belief concerning spiritual death

is from my own personal study. After I
experienced the New Birth in my own life I already understood experientially
what before and after were like because I began to understand spiritual truth
and in my own personal study I saw the death God warned Adam about in Genesis
2:17 where God told Adam that IN THE DAY he ate of a certain fruit HE WOULD
SURELY DIE as spiritual death.

bt: I had been accused of "touting" Barth and Torrance, and I was simply
pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively.

jt: This is not an accusation; Bill's doctrine has no
clear scriptural foundation and he does quotethese
theologians.

bt: In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the
influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote,
"I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and
the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed
quite significant."

jt: Not only is his language "non-biblical" - his
concepts are as well. The Bible is basically a spiritual book since God is
a Spirit and the Bibleis His revelation of Himself to humanity. His
servant Paul explicitly used the word I am accused of using constantly. He said
"Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from
God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the
Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the
natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are
foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually
discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is
rightly judged by no one." (1 Corinthians 2:12-15)

bt: The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took
offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that
he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there
in Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere.

jt: Here he goes again. Calling me a liar and a
hypocrite which is offensive - it would be to him if the shoe were on the other
foot.
Not only that he is wrong. Spiritual life and
spiritual death are all over the Bible and if he is blind to this thenhe
is a natural man.

bt: On every ocassion it is an interpretation,
just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and
interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of
non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on my
end of the pool, 'cause I'm not the hypocrite on this one.

jt: Let's see what the Bible says about
interpretation. "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit
of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except
the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but
the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely
given to us by God" Hence we do not "interpret" nor superimpose other
concepts willy nilly - We receive understanding by way of the
Spirit.

Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need
to repent.

judyt

There are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be
more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Thanks for this Kevin, it is really interesting and 
proves the truth of there being"nothing new under the sun"
It's the same old battle isn't it? "Hath God 
said?" "Hath God said?" And if folkdon't like what He said 
there is
always some philosopher out there with some 50 million 
dollar words of man's wisdom who can straighten
everything out and get the old unregenerated fallen 
creation to heaven as is Who needs to be born again?

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Here we have a perfect example of what modern 
  day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the 
  word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not 
  another and another. See how men help out God.
  
  I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying 
  one word?
  
  "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly 
  charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with 
  having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles 
  in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to 
  a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion 
  employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits 
  whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out 
  by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last 
  Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106
  Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi 
  had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it 
  into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the 
  fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be 
  a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English 
  translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born 
  again." 
  
  JD
  ==
Terry wrote: 
Born again is correct.

Izzy 
responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom 
above" the second time, wasn't the second time born 
"again"?

  
  
  
  
  
  
  __Do You 
  Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  http://mail.yahoo.com 
  judytThere are two C's in the 
christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am 
being chastised by Him

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Debbie Sawczak




Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the 
grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" 
Bill? 

I 
think you are a bit confused, Izzy.It is not the term (since it 
haslong ago been shown here that objection to a "nonbiblical term" is 
inherently absurd) but the idea that matters. The objection is that the idea of 
spiritual death is not taught in the Bible. The non-occurrence in the Bible of 
an _expression_translatable as "spiritually dead",in view ofthe 
fact that the equivalents of both "spiritual" and "dead" occur quite frequently, 
is merely an interestingsupporting incidental. 


Please note, BTW, that I'm not the one making the objection or 
claim, I'm just pointing out the difference to you between a term and an idea. 
Wereally have to drop this whole"nonbiblical term" red 
herring.

Debbie

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Debbie Sawczak




Izzy 
responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom 
above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?

Yes.However,"from above" adds specific content that is not 
contained in "again", and it is that content which may be the focus of the 
passage.

Debbie

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-07-29 Thread David Miller

Judy wrote:
 Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this
 one and you need to repent.

I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one 
this morning.  Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. 
Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your 
inability to make your case Biblically.

I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to 
Augustine and you.  Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine.  He is 
saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of 
his viewpoints without realizing it.  How?  Because you live in this world 
and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched 
by him in one way or another.

Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms.  If I were to say to you, 
Benedict or Benedict Arnold, what would form in your mind?  Negative 
thoughts?  Why?  What do you know about this name?  Who taught it to you? 
Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about 
a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name 
without formal training.  I myself do not know where I adopted the negative 
thoughts that I have about the name Benedict, but I am sure that it came 
through the school system and society along the way.  Ultimately, in our 
generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of 
view that we have about this name.  We may never have read this historian 
ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary 
source, we adopted a concept concerning it.  In other parts of the world 
that do not share our history, the name Benedict has a very positive 
connotation.  Why?  Different historians shaped the culture.

The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that 
many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources.  You may never 
have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his 
views could have come down to you.  Maybe you just heard a minister explain 
Genesis and use the term, spiritual death along with some Augustinian 
viewpoints.  Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but 
heard the view from someone else.  It may be that at the time, the concept 
resonated with you and made sense.  It may also be that at the time you were 
not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible 
privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind 
sometime before.  The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit 
revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine.

From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately 
responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important.  It could 
be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing 
and came upon the same language to explain it.  What is important to me is 
whether the concept is right.  Is this concept of spiritual death the best 
way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed.  For example, did 
Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, 
or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he 
immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense 
that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the 
aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death 
from that very point in time.  It could be that if somebody had stabbed his 
heart with a knife prior to his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed 
after he had sinned, he would have dropped dead right there on the spot. In 
other words, he became mortal immediately on that very day that he sinned.

Now if on the other hand Adam died spiritually and if people are born 
spiritually dead and if his spiritual death is passed on through 
inheritance, there are many implications that such a model would have than 
if such were not true.

Let's take just the situation of inheritance.  I understand physical 
inhertiance pretty well, I think, having taught classes on genetics at the 
university.  What I do not understand is spiritual inheritance, or whether 
spiritual inheritance even exists in the sense of being passed on from 
parent to offspring.  My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual 
inheritance only as an authority issue, not as something passed on through 
the act of creating progeny.  Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us 
and over our children.  Therefore, they have an effect upon future 
generations, not because the children inherited some kind of spiritual sin 
or spiritual death from their parents, but because their parents authority 
over them has granted authority to evil spirits over their children.  It is 
similar to how the children are sanctified by believing parents, not by some 
kind of transference in the

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and 
it's getting older.

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  
  
  Iz: 
  I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing 
  with me that our physical bodies really are dying, 
  Yes.
  

  
  
  
  and you are speaking only metaphorically about our 
  bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy 
  
  Well, if I understand what you 
  are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your 
  existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and 
  makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence 
  in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither 
  does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ 
  Jesus.It 
  is in him that the real you exists. 
  Bill
  
  
  Izzy responds: So you are not being 
  metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in 
  Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical 
term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in 
a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what 
you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual 
death.

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  BT:Paul 
  tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in 
  him all things have their being or ontological 
  There you 
  go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had 
  said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status 
  in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was 
  talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some 
  context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to 
  speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My 
  gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others 
  when they do it.
  
  Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis 
  whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who 
  were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered 
  "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been 
  trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. 
  Right?
  
  You'd better check 
  your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy 
  too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, 
  Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused 
  of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out 
  that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point 
  of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative 
  language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is 
  "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my 
  spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very 
  candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence 
  he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite 
  significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because 
  Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, 
  claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual 
  death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not 
  right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an 
  interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to 
  language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on 
  pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't 
  make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the 
  hypocrite on this one.
  
  Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, 
  on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term 
  "spiritual death" Bill?

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a 
false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more 
accurately reflect the original intent.

bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin 
  Deegan 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  Here we have a perfect example of what modern 
  day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the 
  word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not 
  another and another. See how men help out God.
  
  I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying 
  one word?
  
  "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly 
  charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with 
  having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles 
  in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to 
  a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion 
  employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits 
  whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out 
  by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last 
  Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106
  Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi 
  had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it 
  into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the 
  fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be 
  a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English 
  translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born 
  again." 
  
  JD
  ==
Terry wrote: 
Born again is correct.

Izzy 
responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom 
above" the second time, wasn't the second time born 
"again"?

  
  
  
  
  
  
  __Do You 
  Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Dave Hansen





DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's body, you must know
Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If you don't believe me,
check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe looks the same
as she did 5 years ago!)  :-) 


Bill Taylor wrote:

  
  

  
  Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got
one body and it's getting older.
  
  Bill
  

  






  

  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death









Thanks Debbie. Thats what I was
asking BT, because at one point his objection included that issue. Im
sure he will get back to me on that. izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:05
AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death







Izzy responds: So you really
don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use
the term spiritual death Bill? 











I think you are a bit confused,
Izzy.It is not the term (since it haslong ago been shown here that
objection to a nonbiblical term is inherently absurd) but the idea
that matters. The objection is that the idea of spiritual death is not taught
in the Bible. The non-occurrence in the Bible of an
_expression_translatable as spiritually dead,in view
ofthe fact that the equivalents of both spiritual and
dead occur quite frequently, is merely an interestingsupporting
incidental. 











Please note, BTW, that I'm not the one
making the objection or claim, I'm just pointing out the difference to you
between a term and an idea. Wereally have to drop this
wholenonbiblical term red herring.











Debbie

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death









No one has suggested that the Holy Spirit
came from anywhere else but above. izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:07
AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death







Izzy responds: If you were born from
below the first time, and bornfrom above the second
time, wasn't the second time born again?











Yes.However,from above adds
specific content that is not contained in again, and it is that content
which may be the focus of the passage.











Debbie

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


Linda: 

My computer froze up when I tried to respond to the post you wrote indicating your confusion overthe issue of "spiritual death." The words, themselves, are not the issue. I attach concepts to words. It is the concept of "spiritual death" that is in question. "Trinty" is a non-biblical word giving us a concept that appears to be biblical. Ditto for "perichoresis." This may not hold true for "spiritual death," a wording that seems to divide man into components that are capable of life in and of themselves, separate from the whole man. Such a doctrine may even deny the bodily resurrection. 

That is the issue. But don't answer my question. That's ok. 

JD

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death









And while I am metaphorically sitting
with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right
here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in
Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course
not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a
physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of
course. izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Taylor
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03
AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death







Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's
getting older.











Bill







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org






Sent: Friday, July 29,
2005 3:00 AM





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Spiritual death



















Iz: I'm sure there's a
lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our
physical bodies really are dying, Yes.









and you are speaking
only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment?
Izzy 

Well, if I understand
what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about
your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and
makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or
of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone
else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill





Izzy responds: So you
are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently
risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death









My view is more correctly this: spiritual
death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again)
spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy
Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies
of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that
it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you
understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to
convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same
way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans
spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you
think there is no such condition? izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13
AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death







No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term --
so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a
doctrine of man;and secondly that it wasinaccurate --
if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual
death.











Bill







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org






Sent: Friday, July 29,
2005 3:17 AM





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Spiritual death



























BT:Paul
tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all
things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words,
Bill. I had
said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in
Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking
about. I used the term here to give that first statement some
context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to
speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe
is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do
it.



Iz: I find that
interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you
objected to thoseof us who were using the term spiritual in
front of death because you considered spiritual to be a nonbiblical
term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use
nonbiblical terms all the time. Right?



You'd better check your
records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had
been treating a doctrine of man as authoritative, namely,
Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused
oftouting Barth and Torrance,
andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the libs
who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem
with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts,
even when that language is non-biblical. Neither have I denied the
influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also
wrote, I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the
influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed
quite significant. The reason that this thread took off like it did was
because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine,
claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with spiritual
death; thatit is right there in Genesis.Well, it
is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an
interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language
of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out
my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a
splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this
one.



Izzy responds: So you really
don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use
the term spiritual death Bill?

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death









Just goes to show that Jesus inside
changes us on the outside. J (Plus I only post the good photos!) 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:38
AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death





DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's
body, you must know Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If
you don't believe me, check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe
looks the same as she did 5 years ago!) :-) 


Bill Taylor wrote: 



Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's
getting older.











Bill





























-- ~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain six email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


Referring to "born again."-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:50:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second one? iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD



-Original Message-From: Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death





Bill in Black

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


Izzy is red:





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


SNIP


As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. 
Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken.Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. &
lt; O:P



The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context.The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- i
n a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondenceto our conversion experience.



Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking aboutbeing born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is &qu

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT 
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW!

Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ 
IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in 
terms of your existence. 

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  And while I am 
  metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is 
  notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting 
  better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my 
  body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to 
  express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead 
  w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Bill 
  TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 
  2005 7:03 AMTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  Izzy, let's not be silly. You've 
  got one body and it's getting older.
  
  
  
  Bill
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 


Sent: Friday, 
July 29, 2005 3:00 AM

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Spiritual death







Iz: I'm sure 
there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me 
that our physical bodies really are dying, 
Yes.

  


and you are 
speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at 
the moment? Izzy 

Well, if I 
understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am 
talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together 
and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have 
the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on 
another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All 
existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him 
that the real you exists. Bill


Izzy 
responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY 
beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? 

The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21).

JD
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Thank you for admitting that. iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:11 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death



Referring to "born again."-Original 
Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:50:21 -0500Subject: 
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second 
one? iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] 
Spiritual death



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a 
viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation 
actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD



-Original Message-From: Bill Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 
Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death





Bill in Black

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  Izzy is 
  red:
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 
  PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  SNIP
  
  
  As it pertains to the 
  question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially 
  the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of 
  those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., 
  has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical 
  root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. 
  With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of 
  speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. 
  Such as Perichoresis 
  or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 
  3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well 
  taken.Much stress has been 
  placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious 
  experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to 
  "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament 
  witness. I?m 
  hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one 
  praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. 
   lt; 
  O:P
  
  
  
  The 
  language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians 
  use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that 
  event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in 
  actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to 
  conversion or "born again" experiences. I 
  believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I 
  probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I 
  consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating 
  it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being 
  "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the 
  context.The 
  truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for 
  that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of 
  the great and vicariousregeneration Book 
  chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 
  which 
  took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone 
  in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the 
  last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things 
  shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to 
  follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely 
  different way -- i n a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any 
  referential correspondenceto our conversion 
  experience.
  
  
  
  Now let's 
  talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was 
  used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used 
  alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but 
  as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I 
  believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, 
  and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could 
  Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; 
  it can mean "from the beginning"; or

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




How's that? 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill 
TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death

Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT 
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW!

Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ 
IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in 
terms of your existence. 

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  And while I am 
  metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is 
  notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting 
  better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my 
  body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to 
  express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead 
  w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Bill 
  TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 
  2005 7:03 AMTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  Izzy, let's not be silly. You've 
  got one body and it's getting older.
  
  
  
  Bill
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 


Sent: Friday, 
July 29, 2005 3:00 AM

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Spiritual death







Iz: I'm sure 
there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me 
that our physical bodies really are dying, 
Yes.

  


and you are 
speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at 
the moment? Izzy 

Well, if I 
understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am 
talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together 
and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have 
the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on 
another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All 
existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him 
that the real you exists. Bill


Izzy 
responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY 
beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




I am not interested in going down the same road 
again, so I will abstain from answering your question.

God's blessings,

Bill

By the way, I think I understand your position. 
Thank you for expressing it.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  My view is more 
  correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: 
  born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to 
  things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them 
  compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true 
  spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is 
  not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am 
  saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use 
  another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a 
  biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving 
  Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? 
  izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Bill 
  TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 
  2005 7:13 AMTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  No, my point was firstly that it 
  was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are 
  putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it 
  wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of 
  a literal spiritual death.
  
  
  
  Bill
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 


Sent: Friday, 
July 29, 2005 3:17 AM

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Spiritual death









  

BT:Paul tells us 
that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all 
things have their being or ontological 
There you go 
using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. 
I 
had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological 
status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what 
I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement 
some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical 
terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do 
this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate 
others when they do it.

Iz: I find 
that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started 
because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term 
"spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a 
nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out 
that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. 
Right?

You'd better 
check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out 
that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, 
namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused 
of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply 
pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others 
authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using 
appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even 
when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the 
influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I 
also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my 
appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had 
upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite 
significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was 
because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to 
Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up 
with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in 
Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not 
anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read 
the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a 
different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical 
termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on 
myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this 
one.

Izzy responds: 
So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical 
term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




"from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on 
earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. 
iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death




And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter 
to you? 

The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation 
of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation 
accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all 
along !! (John 3:21).

JD
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 
29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 

  
  
  Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a 
  viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation 
  actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 
  
  JD
  ==
Terry wrote: Born again is 
correct.

Izzy 
responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom 
above" the second time, wasn't the second time born 
"again"?

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


:-)

JD-Original Message-From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:37:57 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's body, you must know Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If you don't believe me, check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe looks the same as she did 5 years ago!) :-) Bill Taylor wrote: 



Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older.

Bill





-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious 
you quit playing. Oh, well 
iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill 
TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death

I am not interested in going down the same road 
again, so I will abstain from answering your question.

God's blessings,

Bill

By the way, I think I understand your position. 
Thank you for expressing it.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  My view is more 
  correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: 
  born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to 
  things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them 
  compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true 
  spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is 
  not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am 
  saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use 
  another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a 
  biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving 
  Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? 
  izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Bill 
  TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 
  2005 7:13 AMTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  
  No, my point was firstly that it 
  was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are 
  putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it 
  wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of 
  a literal spiritual death.
  
  
  
  Bill
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 


Sent: Friday, 
July 29, 2005 3:17 AM

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Spiritual death









  

BT:Paul tells us 
that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all 
things have their being or ontological 
There you go 
using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. 
I 
had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological 
status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what 
I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement 
some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical 
terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do 
this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate 
others when they do it.

Iz: I find 
that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started 
because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term 
"spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a 
nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out 
that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. 
Right?

You'd better 
check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out 
that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, 
namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused 
of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply 
pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others 
authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using 
appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even 
when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the 
influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I 
also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my 
appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had 
upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite 
significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was 
because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to 
Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up 
with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in 
Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not 
anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read 
the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a 
different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical 
termonol

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




IF it were the same, then how could you have 
existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence 
of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in 
believers; hence their hope of glory.

Bill



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  How's that? 
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill 
  TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
  Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
  
  Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT 
  YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW!
  
  Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of 
  Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in 
  Christ, in terms of your existence. 
  
  Bill
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
ShieldsFamily 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death


And while I am 
metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is 
notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting 
better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than 
my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor 
to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually 
dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. 
izzy





From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Bill 
TaylorSent: Friday, July 
29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death


Izzy, let's not be silly. You've 
got one body and it's getting older.



Bill

  
  - Original Message - 
  
  
  From: ShieldsFamily 
  
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  
  Sent: 
  Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM
  
  Subject: RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Iz: I'm sure 
  there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me 
  that our physical bodies really are dying, 
  Yes.
  

  
  
  and you are 
  speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ 
  at the moment? Izzy 
  
  Well, if I 
  understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I 
  am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you 
  together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You 
  do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally 
  dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this 
  power. All existence is in Christ 
  Jesus.It is in 
  him that the real you exists. Bill
  
  
  Izzy 
  responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL 
  BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Wereally have to drop this whole"nonbiblical term" red herring.

First step to becoming a Jehudi!Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:








Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill? 

I think you are a bit confused, Izzy.It is not the term (since it haslong ago been shown here that objection to a "nonbiblical term" is inherently absurd) but the idea that matters. The objection is that the idea of spiritual death is not taught in the Bible. The non-occurrence in the Bible of an _expression_translatable as "spiritually dead",in view ofthe fact that the equivalents of both "spiritual" and "dead" occur quite frequently, is merely an interestingsupporting incidental. 

Please note, BTW, that I'm not the one making the objection or claim, I'm just pointing out the difference to you between a term and an idea. Wereally have to drop this whole"nonbiblical term" red herring.

Debbie
		 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

it is that content which may be the focus of the passage
Why would anyone be persuaded by a uncertain sound?
KJV Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?

Yes.However,"from above" adds specific content that is not contained in "again", and it is that content which may be the focus of the passage.

Debbie__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." 

In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. 

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



"from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? 

The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21).

JD
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Nice THEORY
Where are the facts?

You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy!David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent.I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically.I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another.Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or
"Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture.The point is
that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine.From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is
ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. It could be that if somebody had stabbed his heart with a knife prior to his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed after he had sinned, he would
have dropped dead right there on the spot. In other words, he became mortal immediately on that very day that he sinned.Now if on the other hand Adam died "spiritually" and if people are born spiritually dead and if his spiritual death is passed on through inheritance, there are many implications that such a model would have than if such were not true.Let's take just the situation of inheritance. I understand physical inhertiance pretty well, I think, having taught classes on genetics at the university. What I do not understand is spiritual inheritance, or whether spiritual inheritance even exists in the sense of being passed on from parent to offspring. My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual inheritance only as an authority issue, not as something passed on through the act of creating progeny. Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us and over our children. Therefore, they have an effect upon future
generations, not because the children inherited some kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death from their parents, but because their parents authority over them has granted authority to evil spirits over their children. It is similar to how the children are sanctified by believing

[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death




Good Morning David, you write:
Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and you 
need to repent.

DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this 
one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like 
this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and 
your inability to make your case Biblically.

jt: I don't like it either David but there is some 
background here that you are 
not aware of thatI will addressoffline.

I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to 
Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read 
Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and 
have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? 
Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school 
systems that have been touched by him in one way or another.

jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp 
on constantly which is
that noone can knowwhat they think they know (if 
it conflicts with his doctrine) which
contradictsscripture itself because it is written 
"The spiritual man judges ALL things 
yet he himself is rightlyjudged by noone" 
(1 Cor 2:15)

Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to 
you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? 
Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? 
Who taught it to you? 

jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict 
Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my
husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to 
me since I was raisedin the
British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy 
Fawkes day.
Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned 
about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this 
name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the 
negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that 
it came through the school system and society along the way. 
Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for 
developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never 
have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media 
or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In 
other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" 
has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians 
shaped the culture.

The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that 
many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may 
never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which 
his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister 
explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some 
Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine 
directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the 
time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be 
that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you 
were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first 
been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of 
course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps 
did to Augustine.

jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in 
we heard nothing like that and 
I personally did not begin to study to show myself 
approved to God until after
I was "born again"

From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is 
ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that 
important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, 
independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain 
it. 

jt: What other way is there to explain what took place 
in the garden David?
Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so 
unless God lied or changed
his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then 
Adam died but not 
physically.

What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this 
concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what 
is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is 
that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically 
that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know 
that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which 
began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became 
subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. 


jt: Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam 
and the creation were cursed
at the same time and the curse is always implemented by 
the powers of
darkness who only work death and destruction. 
They never bless. Actually
biology responds to psychology and psychology responds 
to spirituality.

It could be that if

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

There is scripture JD, Izzy may not have had time right
now to find it.
Jesus spells it out for us in John 3:31:

"He who comes from above is above all; he wo is of the
earth is earthly and speaks of the earth.
He who comes from heaven is above all"

So there you go .. If you
are not born again of the Spirit you are earthly - a "natural man".

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:44:21 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer
space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO
THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been
done in God."

In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented
by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY
indwelt with the Spirit. That
is part of the reconciliation of all
things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift
is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes
manifestly clear that God has been there all
along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth
BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works
HAVE BEEN DONE in God.

JD-Original
Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death

"from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth
on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17
AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Spiritual death

And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this
matter to you?

The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the
manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this
manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our
partner all along !! (John 3:21).

JD
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent:
Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my
Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English
translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again."

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again
is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the
first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time
born "again"?

judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the
Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to
glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Thats always the line!
The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent.

bill

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God.

I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word?

"Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106
Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?







__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading 
"changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. 


Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin 
  Deegan 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  Thats always the line!
  The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the 
  translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  



No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a 
false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to 
more accurately reflect the original intent.

bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin Deegan 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  Here we have a perfect example of what 
  modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine 
  CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change 
  one word why not another and another. See how men help out 
  God.
  
  I wonder if Marcion got his start by 
  modifying one word?
  
  "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly 
  charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, 
  with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's 
  Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion 
  tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says 
  Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits 
  syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the 
  Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having 
  furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 
  106
  Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when 
  Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, 
  and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was 
  consumed in the fire that was on the 
  hearth.ShieldsFamily 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" 
  to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear 
  English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born 
  again." 
  
  JD
  ==
Terry wrote: 
Born again is correct.

Izzy 
responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and 
"bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born 
"again"?

  
  
  
  
  
  
  __Do You 
  Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  http://mail.yahoo.com 
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  Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  http://mail.yahoo.com

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


Your last sentence is from outer space. iz

It is from the TEXAS Translation, "God is our partner"
HOWDY PARDNER!

Maybe then we don't need an "appointment", after all?
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


"from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? 

The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21).

JD
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?







		 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

And there are only ONE Set of MARBLESin this game, BUMMER!ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:








Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing. Oh, well iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question.

God's blessings,

Bill

By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it.

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death


No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death.



Bill


- Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death











BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I
 was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it.

Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right?

You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has
 had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one.

Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Good Morning David, you write:
Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and you need to repent.

DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically.

jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are
not aware of thatI will addressoffline.

I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another.

jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is
that noone can knowwhat they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which
contradictsscripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things
yet he himself is rightlyjudged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15)

Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you?

jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my
husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raisedin the
British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day.
Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture.

The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine.

jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and
I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after
I was "born again"

From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it.

jt: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David?
Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed
his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not
physically.

What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time.

jt: Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam and the creation were cursed
at the same time and the curse is always implemented by the powers of
darkness who only work death and destruction. They never bless. Actually
biology responds to

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Changed subjects should be reflected on the Subject line.
Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. 

Bill

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Thats always the line!
The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent.

bill

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God.

I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word?

"Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106
Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?







__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 
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[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death





DM writes:
My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual inheritance only as 

an authority issue, not as something passed on through the act of creating 

progeny. Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us and over our 
children.
Therefore, they have an effect upon future generations, not because the 

children inherited some kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death from their 

parents, but because their parents authority over them has granted 
authority 
to evil spirits over their children. 

jt: David sins follow family trees, the characteristics 
of spirituality follow families.
That is the sin and iniquity we are conceived in (Ps 
51) and when ppl participate
in the same sin that their ancestors did we see the movement of sin through the 
generations. This is called the old man 
or the carnal nature. When the first Adam 

died, his body went back to the dust and 
a kingdom transferred by its fallen nature 

to his seed.

It is similar to how the children are sanctified by believing parents, not 
by some 
kind of transference in the birthing process, but by way of spiritual 
authority issues.
The passages that shape my thinking on this are Exodus 20:5  Ezek. 
18.
In a nutshell, I believe that we inherit the basis for physical sin from 
our parents, 
but I do not see our spirits as being inherited from our parents, and 
therefore, I 
have trouble seeing any kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death being 
inherited from 
our parents.

jt: Generational sin is a spiritual rather than a 
psychological issue and acting
it out always follows unless the child dies in 
infancy.

I believe in a concept of curses being passed on to future generations, but 
not in 
the same sense of inheritance as we find for physical inheritance. It 
is only through authority that parents give to evil spirits through their 
sin that allows curses to be 
passed on. How else do we understand the Lord's teaching in Ezekiel 
18?

jt: Ezekiel 18 is exhorting these ppl to repent and 
turn so that generational
iniquity willl notbe their ruin. It has 
always been true that we are judged for our
own transgression; Vs26,27 explain how when the wicked 
turn to righteousness
or the righteous turn to wickedness each is 
judged/rewarded accordingly.

Ezekiel 18:1-3 (1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,(2) 
What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 
saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set 
on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any 

more to use this proverb in Israel.

jt: These ppl were falsely accusing God. 

Ezekiel 18:19-20(19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the 
iniquity of the father? 
When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my 
statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.(20) The soul that 
sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, 
neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of 
the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be 
upon him.

jt: Exactly - no problem there. We don't have to 
walk in the iniquity of our fathers
but most of us do because of ignorance. For 
Israel it was walking in God's
Law, statutes, and commandments. For us it is 
obeying the law of Christ.
Either way involves removal of the other kingdom and 
renewing of the mind.
 
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the 
Lord, 
are changed into the same image from glory to 
glory, 
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Butwe know Kevin don't we that interpretation is 
not the same as
"translation"

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading 
  "changed" words, Kevin: 
  this because you are reading a 
  translation. 
  
  Bill
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death

Thats always the line!
The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the 
translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

  
  

  No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is 
  a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word 
  to more accurately reflect the original intent.
  
  bill
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 
    AM
    Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death

Here we have a perfect example of what 
modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their 
doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once 
you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out 
God.

I wonder if Marcion got his start by 
modifying one word?

"Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is 
distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a 
half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and 
of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing 
which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," 
says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he 
omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to 
the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of 
having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 
106
Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when 
Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the 
penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until 
all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the 
hearth.ShieldsFamily 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  


Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" 
to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear 
English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than 
"born again." 

JD
==
  Terry wrote: 
  Born again is correct.
  
  Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first 
  time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second 
  time born "again"?
  






__Do You 
Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection 
around http://mail.yahoo.com 
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Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
   
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the 
Lord, 
are changed into the same image from glory to 
glory, 
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

Thanks Kevin!
Every day is a learning experience. I had no idea that
terrorism in the UK was just as rife in
that day - or that Guy Fawkes was a good RC. One
never knows what you will dig up, it's
exciting !!! jt

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Good Morning David, you write:
Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and
you need to repent.

DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read
this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem
arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to
communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically.

jt: I don't like it either David but there is some
background here that you are
not aware of thatI will
addressoffline.

I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to
Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read
Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine
and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it.
How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around
ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or
another.

jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would
harp on constantly which is
that noone can knowwhat they think they know
(if it conflicts with his doctrine) which
contradictsscripture itself because it is
written "The spiritual man judges ALL things

yet he himself is rightlyjudged by noone"
(1 Cor 2:15)

Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to
say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your
mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about
this name? Who taught it to you?

jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict
Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my
husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean
more to me since I was raisedin the
British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy
Fawkes day.
Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you
learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a
concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know
where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name
"Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and
society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are
some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have
about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves,
but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source,
we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world
that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive
connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the
culture.

The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society,
that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources.
You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many
ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you
just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual
death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself
did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone
else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you
and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not
really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible
privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your
mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the
Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to
Augustine.

jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up
in we heard nothing like that and
I personally did not begin to study to show myself
approved to God until after
I was "born again"

From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is
ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that
important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you,
independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to
explain it.

jt: What other way is there to explain what took
place in the garden David?
Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so
unless God lied or changed
his mind as JD claims and did not follow through -
then Adam died but not
physically.

What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is
this concept of "spiritual

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Blainerb473






A Mormon doctrine relating to the 
body and the spirit--check it out for what it is worth to 
you: (Jesus Christ speaking:) 

The spirit of truth is of God. I am the spirit 
of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fullness of truth, 
yea, even of all truth;
And no man receiveth a fullness of truth unless 
he keepeth His (the father's) commandments.
He that keepeth His commandments receiveth 
truth and light and knoweth all things.
Man was also in the beginning with God. 
Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can 
be.
All truth is independent in that sphere 
in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; 
otherwise, there is no existence.
Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is 
the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is 
plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. 

And every man whose spirit 
receiveth not the light is under condemnation, for 
Man is spirit. 

The elements are eternal, 
and spirit 
and element inseparably connected receive a fullness of joy, and 

when separated, man cannot receive 
a fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God, even 
temples, and 
whatsoever temple is 
defiled, God shall destroy that temple.
DC 93:26-35

In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:50:14 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Youmay have something here -- I don't know .But 
  thanks for your input.
  
  Jd-Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 
  2005 10:49:07 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
  

  
  
  In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:51:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind 
and spirit are so integral to each other as to be without 
separation. If we are alive , we are alive in 
total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies 
will be raised and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN 
transformed into a form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) 
"Spiritual death" as a phrase tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, 
the mind and perhaps the spirit or the soul (if there is a 
difference). ??

JD
  
  Blainer: This seems a little confusing to me, w/o definitions in 
  the first place as to what you mean by soul, spirit, mind, etc. I think 
  I read you on what "body" means. :) That's a no-brainer. 

  (Mormons believe a soul is the combo of spirit and body--just so you can 
  see where I am coming from.)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Blainerb473






Blainer: What I hear you saying is that God created billions of 
souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell because they did not get a 
chance to hear the truth and accept Jesus Christ, confess him with their mouths, 
then continue about their daily sinning, but with a renewed heart full of hope 
of going to heaven. :)

"They worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:50:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  This traditional Christian faith is not 
  just narrow, but extremely so.
  Don't you just hate those Narrow Minded Christians?
  Who was it that said?
  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, 
  and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go 
  in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the 
  way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that 
  find it. Beware of false prophets, which 
  come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening 
  wolves.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  



Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is 
that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be 
saved.He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His 
doctrinethat all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there 
is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such 
as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children 
included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, 
but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves 
beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the 
same as if you killed a 
  dog.

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Blainerb473





In a message dated 7/28/2005 8:26:40 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Satan comes as an 
  angel of light deceiving with miracles also. 


Blainerb: I keep hearing this--but other than some obscure biblical 
passage suggesting it might be true, what other evidence is there that Satan 
does this sort of thing commonly. He must have done it a lot of times 
recently, changing his appearance each time, and having a buddy with him from 
time to time, since Joseph Smith saw not only God and his Son Jesus Christ 
standing together in a column of brilliant light, but he saw Moroni numerous 
times, who could enter into a house through the ceiling, and disappear the same 
way, he and Oliver Cowdery saw Moses, who committed to him the keys for the 
gathering of Israel, they saw Elijah, come to fulfill the prophecy in the last 
chapter of Malachi, they saw Elias, come to restore the keys to the gospel 
of Abraham, and prior to this but on the same day, they saw Jesus Christ 
in His glorystanding on a pavement of pure gold. All this, not to 
mention the appearance of John the Baptist when he restored the Aaronic 
Priesthood on the banks of the Susquehanna River, and Peter, James and John 
later when the Higher PH was restored. On that occasion, by the way, Satan 
did try to appear as an angel of light, but was detected by Michael, the 
archangel, and sent scurrying on his way. Wow!! That Satan is a real 
changeling! They should hire him for Star Wars movies. He could 
alternately pose as Luke Skywalker, Princess Leah, Yoda, Chubaka, and Darth 
Vader. :)

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-07-29 Thread Debbie Sawczak




David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this 
post you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen to have the same 
opinion about spiritual inheritance). I wanted to say something similar but you 
didso better than I would have. The reality that we are powerfully 
influenced by "ambient" ideas, whether true ones or erroneous ones,is not 
acknowledged often enough.Thanks also for the reminderthat the merit 
of a a given idea does not depend on which other individuals have 
subscribed to it or who first enunciated it, or the biographicaldetails of 
such a person.

Debbie


- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
Death
 Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on 
this one and you need to repent.  I haven't been 
following the posts the last few days, but I read this one  this 
morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. 
 Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and 
your  inability to make your case Biblically.  I would 
like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to  Augustine 
and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is 
 saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some 
of  his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you 
live in this world  and have grown up around ministers and school 
systems that have been touched  by him in one way or another. 
 Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to 
say to you,  "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your 
mind? Negative  thoughts? Why? What do you know about 
this name? Who taught it to you?  Now perhaps you can go to some 
class in grade school where you learned about  a traitor, but even many 
non-educated people have a concept of this name  without formal 
training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative  
thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came 
 through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, 
in our  generation, there are some historians responsible for developing 
the kind of  view that we have about this name. We may never have 
read this historian  ourselves, but through teachers or the news media 
or some other secondary  source, we adopted a concept concerning 
it. In other parts of the world  that do not share our history, 
the name "Benedict" has a very positive  connotation. Why? 
Different historians shaped the culture.  The point is that 
Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that  many of his 
viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never  
have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his 
 views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a 
minister explain  Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with 
some Augustinian  viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read 
Augustine directly, but  heard the view from someone else. It may 
be that at the time, the concept  resonated with you and made 
sense. It may also be that at the time you were  not really paying 
much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible  privately, 
these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind  
sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit 
 revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to 
Augustine. From my perspective, the question of whether or 
not Augustine is ultimately  responsible for your viewpoint is not 
really all that important. It could  be that Augustine was right, 
and that you, independently, saw the same thing  and came upon the same 
language to explain it. What is important to me is  whether the 
concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best  
way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, 
did  Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand 
his death,  or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the 
sense that he  immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), 
but in the sense  that he was delivered to death, which began working 
upon him, such that the  aging process began and he became subject to 
disease, sickness, and death  from that very point in time. It 
could be that if somebody had stabbed his  heart with a knife prior to 
his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed  after he had sinned, he 
would have dropped dead right there on the spot. In  other words, he 
became mortal immediately on that very day that he sinned.  Now 
if on the other hand Adam died "spiritually" and if people are born  
spiritually dead and if his spiritual death is passed on through  
inheritance, there are many implications that such a model would have than 
 if such were not true.  Let's take just the s

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Translation 101
Translation:
ENGLISH to Spanish
again de nuevo

Changed words
Againto arriba
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Butwe know Kevin don't we that interpretation is not the same as
"translation"

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: 
this because you are reading a translation. 

Bill

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Thats always the line!
The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent.

bill

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God.

I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word?

"Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106
Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." 

JD
==
Terry wrote: Born again is correct.

Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?







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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

A Jesuit attempt on King James' life was discovered when 36 barrels of gunpowder were found in the cellar of Westminster palace where King James was to speak in a few hours. Guy Fawkes and 3 other Roman Soldiers of fortune had taken an oath to assassinate the King. Their pledge was sealed with a solemn communion service, served by Jesuit priest, Father John Gerard, according to trial testimony later. These men were all found guilty and sentenced to death. (Final Authority, William Grady, (p189191)
Real Audio of the book is here:
see "Enter, The Jesuits"
http://www.biblebelievers.com/Grady/Final_Authority.html
The lesson and application for today's Biblebelieving pastor is all too clear. Any preacher who takes his stand for the King James Bible, versus all the other Alexandrian Egyptian text Bibles (NIV, NASB, NKJV) will also find 36 barrels of gunpowder under his feet, sooner or later! With this background, let us show why we believe the King James Bible is SUPERIOR to the newer Bible versions today!
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks Kevin!
Every day is a learning experience. I had no idea that terrorism in the UK was just as rife in that day - or that Guy Fawkes was a good RC. One never knows what you will dig up, it's exciting !!! jt

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Good Morning David, you write:
Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and you need to repent.

jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are
not aware of thatI will addressoffline.

jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and
I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after
I was "born again"

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




Izzy asks  Do you have a 
biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving 
Christ as Savior and Lord? 

Okay, I willaddress your question and 
then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the 
following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can 
separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of 
which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address 
that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept that premise as it 
relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the 
form it was structured. 

When the biblical authors speak to living 
subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking 
metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers 
had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of 
being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their 
personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. He 
is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their 
entire former existencein the depravity of their fallen state. Implicit in 
his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of 
themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former 
state.

I hope this will satisfy your request and 
trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this 
discussion.

Thank you for your patience and the charity 
with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when 
we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless 
you,

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:27 AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
  death
  
  Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the 
  obvious you quit playing. Oh, well 
  iz
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill 
  TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
  Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
  
  I am not interested in going down the same road 
  again, so I will abstain from answering your question.
  
  God's blessings,
  
  Bill
  
  By the way, I think I understand your position. 
  Thank you for expressing it.
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
ShieldsFamily 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death


My view is more 
correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: 
born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened 
to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for 
them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true 
spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is 
not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am 
saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would 
use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a 
biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving 
Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? 
izzy





From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Bill 
TaylorSent: Friday, July 
29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual 
death


No, my point was firstly that it 
was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are 
putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it 
wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea 
of a literal spiritual death.



Bill

  
  - Original Message - 
  
  
  From: ShieldsFamily 
  
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  
  Sent: 
  Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM
  
  Subject: RE: 
      [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  BT:Paul tells us 
  that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all 
  things have their being or ontological 
  There you go 
  using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. 
  I had said 
  something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in 
  Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was 
  talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some 
  context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical 
  terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that w

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:49:07 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death




In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:51:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). ??

JD

Blainer: This seems a little confusing to me, w/o definitions in the first place as to what you mean by soul, spirit, mind, etc. I think I read you on what "body" means. :) That's a no-brainer. 
(Mormons believe a soul is the combo of spirit and body--just so you can see where I am coming from.)


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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell

WRONG
Framing the discussion with your evil thoughts, does not make them God's thoughts:
2 PT 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

AND HE BACKED IT UP WITH HIS OWN BLOOD!
Acts 20:28 the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And remember you MUST be Born "Above"
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Blainer: What I hear you saying is that God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell because they did not get a chance to hear the truth and accept Jesus Christ, confess him with their mouths, then continue about their daily sinning, but with a renewed heart full of hope of going to heaven. :)

"They worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:50:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.
Don't you just hate those Narrow Minded Christians?
Who was it that said?
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved.He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrinethat all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog.

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Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death