Re: [EVDL] Light weight electric motorcycle. DIY

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Well you have your opinion, but I disagree.  The construction is crude at
best, ridiculously overweight, and that's with undersized bicycle-based
components.  There were a few things regarding alignment that could have
been MUCH more thoroughly explained, which invites end-result-hobbling
mistakes.  And the hub motor relegates this to local city knock-around
duty, not a proper motorcycle with decent road manners.  (Too much unsprung
weight.)

Th whole point of this approach is easy construction, which is in fact
valuable.  It is quite possible to make a much more elegantly executed
motorcycle with very little more effort than this one, but the author
didn't go the extra mile to explain what's critical, what's not, why, and
how - specifically - to do it right in a simple, straightforward,
bench-top-and-hand-tools manner.

Also, take it from someone who's been there - this is a massive,
months-long project involving a huge amount of handiwork.  Even with plans
and extensive instructions.  With that kind of investment you want an end
result that's really right.

And keep in mind that licensing a special-construction motorcycle can be a
challenge all on its own, a challenge that varies widely from state to
state.

Close but no banana.

Chris

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:21 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> The workmanship is good.  Cost is variable depending on the parts used.
> Using chromoly will reduce the weight.  I have no financial connection to
> this video.  It is simply in my opinion a very good video with plans
> available. Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD3KymY86z8
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Charging adapter for J1772?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

BRAIN FADE
'... dial down your charger to the appropriate CURRENT manually?'


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On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 12:44 PM Chris Tromley  wrote:

> Noob question here.  Isn't the EVSE's current capability part of the J1772
> handshake?  Even if there's no way to automatically throttle your EV
> charger, could you query the EVSE through the plug and dial down your
> charger to the appropriate query manually?  Or at least use the EVSE signal
> to prevent your charger from attempting to draw too much and pop the
> breaker for the EVSE?
>
> Chris
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
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>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:01 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri Aug 30 14:06:19 PDT 2019 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>> >Well, a little quick Googling found a J1772 Adapter Box (
>> http://www.tucsonev.com/) -- at
>> >$150 I'm sorely tempted!  Anybody have experience with this or any other
>> J1772 adapter?
>>
>> The one issue I have with those is that it doesn't prevent your charger
>> from trying to draw MORE current than the EVSE allows.
>> As long as you have a 3.3KW (or less) charger, it will likely be fine -
>> Unless plugged into a 120V 15A outlet where the EVSE is telling your
>> charger to limit itself to 12A (about 1500W).  In which case you need a
>> REALLY wimpy charger.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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>>
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Re: [EVDL] Charging adapter for J1772?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Noob question here.  Isn't the EVSE's current capability part of the J1772
handshake?  Even if there's no way to automatically throttle your EV
charger, could you query the EVSE through the plug and dial down your
charger to the appropriate query manually?  Or at least use the EVSE signal
to prevent your charger from attempting to draw too much and pop the
breaker for the EVSE?

Chris


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On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:01 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> On Fri Aug 30 14:06:19 PDT 2019 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >Well, a little quick Googling found a J1772 Adapter Box (
> http://www.tucsonev.com/) -- at
> >$150 I'm sorely tempted!  Anybody have experience with this or any other
> J1772 adapter?
>
> The one issue I have with those is that it doesn't prevent your charger
> from trying to draw MORE current than the EVSE allows.
> As long as you have a 3.3KW (or less) charger, it will likely be fine -
> Unless plugged into a 120V 15A outlet where the EVSE is telling your
> charger to limit itself to 12A (about 1500W).  In which case you need a
> REALLY wimpy charger.
>
>
> --
>
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] L1/L2 EVSE for $189

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Seems like only a few years ago, when EVSEs were all hardwired, came from
big name industrial manufacturers and sported prices over $1000, I
predicted it wouldn't be long before you could get them anywhere for under
$200.  Not many bought that idea.

Now if we could only get that Moore's Law effect to work on batteries.
Evolution has been pretty impressive, but I'm hoping solid state gives us a
step change.  We're overdue.

We got an unexpected bump with the Tesla Switched Reluctance Motor
breakthrough, and that one will benefit many more industries than EVs.  I
haven't been involved with EVs as long as some here, but I almost feel like
I'm watching a child grow and mature.  The future looks bright.  It's
gratifying to be part of it.

Chris


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On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 9:19 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> Just saw this L1/L2 EVSE for $189.  Comes with L1 to L2 adapter.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BM1XT4Q?ref=em_1p_1_ti_=pe_354360
> _428066720
>
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Driving A Tesla Results In More CO2 Than A Mercedes Diesel Car, Study Finds

[Chris Tromley via EV]

All you need to know is the source of the article.  The Daily Caller is
among the bottom of the barrel in right-wing screamer sites.  Think if them
as Breitbart, but without Breitbart's polish and journalistic integrity.


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On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 3:36 PM David Delman via EV 
wrote:

> Have we discussed this article yet?
>
> https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/24/tesla-carbon-dioxide-mercedes/
>
> Thank you,
>
> David Delman
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] GNSS spoofing attacks Tesla EVs

[Chris Tromley via EV]

This is an issue that I've been aware of for years now, going back to when
it sounded like only paranoid lunatics who love conspiracy theories would
be interested.  I was concerned enough back then to contact the US Homeland
Security departments for infrastructure and cyber threats, and Tesla as
well.

It wasn't something I wanted to be too vocal about at the time for obvious
reasons.  This is the first time I've seen it discussed openly, and I think
it's about time.  There's more to it than what is covered here - there are
also very troubling CANBUS vulnerabilities that make it a concern for
non-autonomous vehicles, and no one has addressed how these attacks might
be scaled up to a coordinated, nationwide level.

The bottom line here is that once you get into the system you can do pretty
much anything you want.  Those who would wish us harm don't  really need a
lot of expertise to wreak some pretty nasty and creative havoc as things
are right now.

I would hope we're smart enough to recognize the danger and work
effectively and pre-emptively to prevent such attacks, but experience shows
we're much more likely to wait until a successfully deadly attack catches
us "off-guard." THEN we'll act like it's a serious concern.

Chris

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 12:41 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> https://www.gpsworld.com/tesla-model-s-and-model-3-vulnerable-to-gnss-spoofing-attacks/
> Tesla Model S and Model 3 vulnerable to GNSS spoofing attacks
> June 28, 2019
>
> [image
> https://www.gpsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/TeslaModel3.jpg
> Tesla Model 3. (Photo: Tesla)
> ]
>
> Autopilot Navigation Steers Car off Road, Research from Regulus Cyber Shows
>
> Tesla Model S and Model 3 — electric cars built for speed and safety — are
> vulnerable to cyberattacks aimed at their navigation systems, according to
> recent research from Regulus Cyber.
>
> During a test drive using Tesla’s Navigate on Autopilot feature, a staged
> attack caused the car to suddenly slow down and unexpectedly veer off the
> main road. Regulus Cyber, the first company to deal with smart-sensor
> security across a wide range of applications including automotive, mobile,
> and critical infrastructure, initially discovered the Tesla vulnerability
> during its ongoing study of the threat that easily accessible spoofing
> technology poses to GNSS receivers.
>
> The Regulus Cyber researchers found that spoofing attacks on the Tesla GNSS
> receiver could easily be carried out wirelessly and remotely, exploiting
> security vulnerabilities in mission-critical telematics, sensor fusion, and
> navigation capabilities.
>
> Regulus Cyber experts traveled to Europe last week to test-drive the Tesla
> Model 3 using Navigate on Autopilot. An active guidance feature for its
> Enhanced Autopilot platform, it’s meant to make following the route to a
> destination easier, which includes suggesting and making lane changes and
> taking interchange exits, all with driver supervision.
>
> While it initially required drivers to confirm lane changes using the turn
> signals before the car moved into an adjacent lane, current versions of
> Navigate on Autopilot allow drivers to waive the confirmation requirement
> if
> they choose, meaning the car can activate the turn signal and start turning
> on its own. Tesla emphasizes that “in both of these scenarios until truly
> driverless cars are validated and approved by regulators, drivers are
> responsible for and must remain ready to take manual control of their car
> at
> all times.”
>
> Designed to reveal how the semi-autonomous Model S and Model 3 would react
> to a spoofing attack, the Regulus Cyber test began with the car driving
> normally and the autopilot navigation feature activated, maintaining a
> constant speed and position in the middle of the lane.
>
> Although the car was three miles away from the planned exit when the
> spoofing attack began, the car reacted as if the exit was just 500 feet
> away
> — abruptly slowing down, activating the right turn signal, and making a
> sharp turn off the main road. The driver immediately took manual control
> but
> couldn’t stop the car from leaving the road.
>
> The testing revealed another unexpected finding that significantly
> amplified
> the threat—a link between the car’s navigation and air suspension systems.
> This resulted in the height of the car changing unexpectedly while moving
> because the suspension system “thought” it was driving through various
> locations during the test, either on smooth roadways, when the car was
> lowered for greater aerodynamics, or “off-road” streets, which would
> activate the car elevating its undercarriage to avoid any obstacles on the
> road.
>
> Yoav Zangvil, Regulus Cyber CTO and co-founder, explains that GNSS spoofing
> is a growing threat to ADAS and autonomous vehicles. “Until now, awareness
> of cybersecurity issues with GNSS and sensors has been limited in the
> automotive industry. But as dependency on GNSS is on the rise, 

Re: [EVDL] 48V charger repair: 1980 Comuta-Car

[Chris Tromley via EV]

If a simple, old-school and cheap solution is desired, I still have the
original 48V transformer charger from my Lectric Leopard up in my attic.  I
bought the car with only a few hundred original miles and immediately
upgraded everything to 120V, so it can't have been used more than a few
times.  I'd be happy to see it gone for an attractive price.

Chris

On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 9:15 PM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> [ref
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/1980-Commuta-Car-tp4693753.html
> >charger doesn't work; when I plug the car in, the on-dash charging ammeter
> bumps, then zeroes<
> ]
>
> % Lee is one of several on the evdl that know  comuta-cars
> https://www.google.com/search?q=comuta-cars
>
> A search
> https://www.google.com/search?q=1980+comuta-car+charger+schematics=isch
>  gives
>
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/c_car_charger.jpg
>  evdl's charger schematic
>
> http://www.geocities.ws/commutacar/
> Mike Chancey's commutacar site
>
> http://www.geocities.ws/commutacar/cir24.gif
>
> http://www.geocities.ws/commutacar/cir26.gif
>
> http://www.didik.com/cit_part.htm
>  parts list shows 48v charger
>
> http://www.evperformance.com/index.php?route=news/article_id=5
>  osciloscope captures of charger circuit
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=comuta+car+parts
>
> I'll assume Lambert wants to keep the citicar original (old-school) and
> will
> deleve into the charger's anchient design drawn from the 1970's club-car
> golf-carts.
>
> When I look at its schematic, it reminds me of what I cut my teeth on,
> way-way back in grade school talking electronics with my Lockheed Engineer
> Dad.
> A center tapped secondary winding with 2 diode feeding 2 scrs, a zenor
> diode
> and a thermistor to help with current regulation ...
> ( : old : ).
>
> But purists forgive me, this is achiest technology, long before the
> switching circuitry designs of today. Its old saturated transformer
> windings, and chopped/spiky current output design can't be more than 50%
> efficient. That means a lot of the power pulled from the AC (L1) outlet is
> wasted and does not go into the pack.
>
> An L1 outlet can supply (120VAC*12A= ) 1.4kW, which means only 700W goes
> into the 48VDC PbSO4 pack (700/48= ) an average of 14ADC charging current.
> The fuses are rated higher to handle the spiky currents.
>
> I am coming from a different camp of thought than purists and would not
> want
> to try to repair this ancient technology. I would yank out the old-tech and
> install today's-tech.
>
> David's Delta-Q idea is a good one as an upgrade path.
>
>
> At the 2015 Silicon Valley NDEW EVent
> https://brucedp15.neocities.org/eaasvr15/
>  30% down the page, shows a Citicar owner who had done several upgrades
> https://brucedp15.neocities.org/eaasvr15/eaasvr15-20150919-brucedp-12l.jpg
>  'The Citi-car had been upgraded to a 60V Li-ion pack using a 500A
> controller and motor r:35+mi ts:40+mph'
>
> As a boy, I would respectfully listen to my Dad's (depression era, no
> jobs=no-money) childhood achievements of brings an old used bicycle back to
> life by sanding the wooden rims/wheels ...
> https://www.wheelsofthepast.org/upload/IMG_1296.jpg
>  (all the while I'm thinking: Wow how old-tech those days were ...
>  when a 5-speed stingray/rat-bike with banana seats were all the rage
>
> http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/stingrays-that-i-fixed-up-over-the-years.26088/
>  when I was young, but I was already too tall for them)
>
> There comes a time when cars with wooden wheels
>
> https://forums.aaca.org/topic/162125-how-late-was-wood-spoke-wheels-a-option/
>  are just too old to support or safe.
>
>
> A search
>
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=48v+15a+Battery+Charger&_sacat=48618_BIN=1&_sop=15
>  gives
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Automatic-48V-10A-15A-20A-Battery-Charger-Current-Switchable-MCU-Controlled-new/273693743819
>  Which also has the advantage of running off 120 or 220VAC (like a
> Delta-Q).
> That means it could be made to run of today's j1772 EVSE (public or home).
> Here are other links to explore:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/i/173497752010?chn=ps
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=48v+charger&_sacat=0_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15_BIN=1&_pgn=3
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=48+Volt+Battery+Charger+Golf+Cart
>
> If  only wanted to keep his pack healthy with a low maintenance charger,
> while you work on repairing the old charger, consider:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-Volt-2-5A-Battery-Charger-for-Electric-Car-E-bike-Smart-Scooter-Adapter-USA/282979879433?epid=602991451
>
> Good Luck :-)
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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> 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $20k Arcimoto Deliverator delivery-EV> presales-open r:100mi ts:75mph

[Chris Tromley via EV]

The Corbin Sparrow had a bad reputation for tipping over, simply because of
its short wheelbase combined with a narrow track.  The Deliverator appears
to have very similar proportions, except for carrying its 200-ish lbs of
cargo (350 less driver) in the worst possible place - high over the rear
wheel.

Three-wheelers can be very stable, but I'm betting this one is not.  I hope
it doesn't give three-wheelers and EVs another black eye.

Chris


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On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 1:40 PM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/19/arcimoto-deliverator-electric-delivery-vehicle/
> Arcimoto's latest three-wheeled EV is designed for deliveries
> 2019-03-19  Christine Fisher
>
> [image
>
> https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims?quality=85_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fo.aolcdn.com%2Fimages%2Fdims%3Fresize%3D2000%252C2000%252Cshrink%26image_uri%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252F
> s.yimg.com
> %252Fos%252Fcreatr-uploaded-images%252F2019-03%252F036044d0-4a84-11e9-b7bb-59b706690da3%26client%3Da1acac3e1b3290917d92%26signature%3D0609ee44b549f41bbec72a89bc7e3df3b5b116a2=amp-blogside-v2=8028eaaa70e828b993be73ead922a11e5951e318
> Arcimoto
> ]
>
> The 'Deliverator' is very similar to Arcimoto's ‘Fun Utility Vehicle’ but
> with added cargo space.
>
> You might remember Arcimoto as the company behind the "Fun Utility Vehicle"
> (FUV) -- a three-wheeled, electric vehicle that's scheduled to hit the
> streets in Oregon, California and Washington this summer. With the FUV
> underway, Arcimoto has opened presales [
> https://www.arcimoto.com/deliverator/
> ] for a similar vehicle with a new concept. Called the "Deliverator," it's
> a
> three-wheel, pure electric vehicle meant for local deliveries.
>
> Like Arcimoto's FUV, the Deliverator is something between a car and a
> motorcycle. It will get around 100 city miles per charge, and it will top
> out at 75 mph -- just like the FUV. And it will start at $19,900, which you
> might have guessed, is the cost of the first edition FUV.
>
> But, the Deliverator will also have a 350-pound carrying capacity and more
> than 20 cubic feet of cargo space, which can be customized to carry
> anything
> from parcels to pizza, groceries, pharmaceuticals and dry cleaning. The
> company hopes it will be an efficient alternative to delivery vans and
> trucks that's easier to maneuver around cities.
>
> This is Arcimoto's third electric vehicle. It has another (again, very
> similar) model developed for emergency responders. That makes the
> Deliverator seem more like Arcimoto trying to get as many uses out of one
> concept than something totally novel, but if it's a green way to get your
> pizza faster, it can't be all bad. While Arcimoto has opened pre-orders,
> production won't start until 2020, so it will be a while before we see
> these
> guys out on the streets.
> [© engadget.com]
>
>
> [ref
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Arcimoto-1st-Responders-EV-needs-a-L2-6kW-charger-option-tp4692868.html
> ]
>
>
> +
>
> https://www.tdworld.com/electrification/four-steps-utilities-should-take-promote-evs
> The Four Steps Utilities Should Take to Promote EVs
> Mar 18, 2019  Utilities must have a plan to make the most of the transition
> to electric transport. This should start with the utility team driving
> electric cars. Visit dealerships, talk with electric car owners and network
> with other utilities. Forth hosts free quarterly ...
>
> https://www.tdworld.com/sites/tdworld.com/files/styles/article_featured_standard/public/electric-vehicle-power-supply.jpg?itok=g-w7caka
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Would you buy a used EVSE from this clown?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Are you sure the Pro version upgrade can't be retrofitted to your box?  I
thought it could.

Chris
On Mar 20, 2019 6:00 AM, "fred via EV"  wrote:

> Disclaimer: I have no formal training as a clown, but I do have a red foam
> nose gadget.
> We've been enjoying for many months an eMotorwerks EVSE with a 40 ampere
> rating (10KW). It's an unremarkable looking silver box, bolted to the side
> of our garage, connected to a 50 ampere circuit with the standard NEMA
> 14-50P (https://www.stayonline.com/product-resources/nema-
> straight-blade-reference-chart.asp).
> We purchased it in December 2016 and it's been running just great. It has
> just finished charging one of our Rav4EVs only minutes ago. The 40A output
> means that the computer in the car is pessimistic about the duration of the
> charge, by as much as two hours. If your EV can accept this higher rate,
> why settle for less?
>
> Why would I want to sell it, you might ask. You might not, but I'll tell
> you anyway. When we purchased the EVSE, I had decided that I didn't need to
> know all the fun data that is now available to those buyers who selected
> the internet-connected versions and went for the bottom dollar high-output
> version instead.
> As time has passed, as it is wont to do, I've discovered that I really do
> want to know all that fun data after all. I don't have need for two, as I
> live and breathe (and charge) in only this one location.
> We paid the retail price of US$500, which is almost as much as the
> net-connected version. Would you be willing to own this silver box for a
> fraction of the price, say US$300 (plus appropriate shipping charges via
> USPS) and have that wonderful high-speed charging at your fingertips?
> If you would, please send money, but let's start with an email. If you
> like, I can send an unremarkable photo of the current installation of the
> unremarkable silver box. The J1772 handle is in excellent condition and the
> long charging cable is undamaged. What I would like to happen is that I get
> a commitment of purchase, at which time I'll order the net-connected
> version. When it arrives, I'll notify the buyer and prepare to ship out the
> current one. We have the toy EVSE that comes with the vehicle for 110V
> charging, but 30-40 hour charge times is really impractical, don't you
> think?
> I'm aware that for sale postings are permitted for a one-time, private
> offering, not for commercial gain. If this is incorrect, I'll destroy the
> red foam nose.
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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:15 PM Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:

> Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed
> ice they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent
> flaring up?
>

Probably not.  If you assume they can maintain typical freezer temperature
of -10 °F, that's still only ~80 °F away from ambient temperature.  That's
not much of a help when you're trying to cool things heated by flames in
the 1000s of degrees.  Furthermore, if you dumped enough crushed ice so it
wouldn't immediately flash into steam, it would restrict the flow of
water.  The main benefit of using a fire hose is that there's a constant
flow of water to carry the heat away.  (Assuming you can get water to the
heat source.)  You just need to do it long enough to cool everything to
below ignition temp.  That might mean until there is not enough capacity
left in the battery to heat up from a short circuit caused by munched
and/or torn metal

Chris


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (Nonstarter)> $30k HD's LiveWire e-motorcycle r:110mi 0-60mph:3.5s

[Chris Tromley via EV]

And Ducati just announced they have an electric motorcycle (EM) that will
see production "soon".  The EM market is about to go from one player to
four in quick succession.  The interesting part is that an industry insider
recently reported that Zero, the market leader, sold only 750 units in
2018.  So it.s a market that has nothing but room to grow as soon as it
captures more hearts and minds.  More choices can only help that.  Judging
from the level of ignorance I see on motorcycle forums, hearts and minds
are still the biggest obstacle.

Chris

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 4:50 AM Paul Compton via EV 
wrote:

> US$30K for the Livewire and only another 8K to buy Lightning's road
> legal race bike, the LS218.
>
> Even worse, Lightning have just announced their new road oriented
> machine starting at US$13K
>
>
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 at 02:50, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://infosurhoy.com/cocoon/saii/xhtml/en_GB/news/no-juice-for-harley-davidsons-turnaround-livewire-is-a-nonstarter/
> > No Juice For Harley Davidson’s Turnaround: LiveWire Is A Nonstarter
> > Jan 15, 2019  Denis Bedoya
> >
> > What the heck is Harley-Davidson thinking? Its long-awaited electric
> > LiveWire motorcycle is now ready for pre-order pending shipment in
> August,
> > but instead of making an accessible, high-performance machine that could
> > jump-start a sales renaissance, it instead delivered another
> premium-priced
> > bike that underperforms the competition.
> >
> > Motorcycle enthusiasts and investors waited five years to see what Harley
> > would come out with, and this is how they’ve been rewarded. To
> shareholders
> > who hoped the LiveWire would spark Harley’s turnaround, I have some
> advice:
> > Pull the plug on that dream now, because it isn’t going to happen.
> >
> > More of the same
> >
> > Make no mistake, the 2020 LiveWire is a beauty. It accelerates from 0 to
> 60
> > mph in 3.5 seconds (with “futuristic sound!”) and offers riders “twist
> and
> > go” technology that requires no clutch or gear shifting. There’s a Level
> 1
> > onboard battery charger so that you can plug into any normal outlet and
> > charge the bike overnight, or you can visit a public Level 3 DC Fast
> Charge
> > station for speedier charging — typically 20 minutes to an hour.
> >
> > Where Harley-Davidson is short-circuiting its vision is on the price: the
> > LiveWire retails for just under $30,000, meaning that within the
> company’s
> > lineup, only the trikes and ultra high-end CVO bikes are more expensive.
> And
> > while its battery range of 110 miles on a single charge in urban driving
> > conditions is better than the 60 miles the prototype offered, it’s still
> > less than the ranges of electric motorcycles already on the market.
> > Relatively few people will want or be able to buy this bike.
> >
> > By contrast, the Model S from Zero Motorcycles, which has been dubbed the
> > “Tesla of motorcycles,” comes with its new, more powerful ZF14.4 battery.
> > When outfitted with an optional Power Tank (which provides an additional
> 3.6
> > kilowatt hours of battery storage), Zero’s e-bike can do 223 miles of
> city
> > driving or almost 100 miles on the highway, and it sells for half the
> price
> > of a LiveWire. Notably, the LiveWire can only manage 70 miles of highway
> > riding on a charge, meaning you won’t be taking it out for many long
> Sunday
> > morning jaunts in the country.
> >
> > Missing the market
> >
> > Harley has experienced a four-year sales slump as buyers turn away from
> > expensive, chrome-laden, big-block engine bikes like those the industry
> > leader is famous for. Instead, a ridership demographic that is tilting
> > younger and increasingly female has been favoring leaner, lighter, and
> > cheaper motorcycles.
> >
> > Harley did get the look right: You’d be hard-pressed to find any chrome
> on
> > the LiveWire, and as the frame is made out of cast aluminum, it’s
> probably
> > light enough to offset what is likely a heavy battery. And the company
> built
> > plenty of “connectivity” into the bike — you can use your smartphone to
> > check battery life, the bike’s location, and tamper notifications.
> >
> > But if the urban market is what Harley-Davidson was targeting with the
> > LiveWire — and its “All Roads Lead to Harley” roadmap it laid out last
> > summer said the wave of electric bikes coming would be “light, nimble and
> > ready to tackle the urban landscape” — well, 30 large is likely going to
> > prove too high a number for folks to plunk down on a motorcycle just to
> get
> > around the city.
> >
> > Indeed, the price tag makes it difficult to tell if Harley-Davidson is
> > really committed to electric motorcycles — or even if it’s serious about
> > pulling itself out of its sales slump.
> >
> > The LiveWire won’t make the short list for most motorcycle shoppers, even
> > those considering an e-bike. And if Harley doesn’t generate sufficient
> sales
> > now, how is it going to commit more 

Re: [EVDL] Hardware for my trike electrification. Still need batteries charger and bms.

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Not sure what the laws are in California, but this vehicle will not qualify
as a 'bicycle' (three wheels or less) in legal terms.  750 W is the limit
for that.  I'm guessing it will be considered a moped, not sure what that
means WRT licensing, insurance, helmet requirements, etc.

When you say the modules are in the open air, I hope you mean in an
insulated box.  Having any airflow through a somewhat shielded enclosure
will have them covered in dust, condensation, insect nests, etc., all of
which can lead to ground faults.  This will be an interesting vehicle and
therefore an 'attractive nuisance' (look it up) in terms of liability,
should anyone touch it while it's charging.

What was the charger company that Roger Stockton worked for?  Didn't they
make up to 72 V chargers with a fat enough amp output to be useful for a
biggish pack?

Should be a lot of fun.  Good luck with it.  Be careful in traffic - I'm
sure you're already aware of the "eyeball to sidewall" perspective and what
it means for visibility.

Chris

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:00 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Here are the drive parts ordered from Luna Cycle with prices, shipping and
> tax so people can what it really costs.  This will power a Steintrike
> Explorer model.  I want to use 4 kw of Nissan Leaf modules to power the
> system.  I will need a charger and bms and of course some sort of
> enclosure.  Not sure it is wise to have the modules in the open air but
> they are air cooled.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>   3 Speed Adjustable Switch wth Cruise Control
>  CYCLONE-3SPD 1 $20.00
>
>
>   40 amp 48-72v Ebike Controller
> CYCLONE-CNTRLR 1 $49.95
>
> Cyclone Mid Drive Ebike Motor With Freewheel Sprocket  4000 watt
>   CYCLONE-MTR-BARE 1 $219.99 USD
>
>
> Cyclone Pedal Assist Add on Cadence Sensor
>CYCLONE-PAS 1 $12.95 USD
>
> Right Full Twist Throttle for Cyclone Drive with LED Voltage Display
>   CYCLONE-TWST-FULL 1 $24.95 USD
>
> Subtotal: $327.84 USD
>
> Shipping: $30.00 USD
>
> Tax : $27.86 USD
>
> Grand Total: $385.70 USD
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Looks like a Tesla, S or 3.  I'm thinking Model 3.

I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger in handling an EV
in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to get
two parts of the body at different potentials.  So the rule of staying away
from orange should be pretty reliable.  You certainly don't want to go
bridging any HV bits with your body, but if you're in the water with an EV
and the HV is compromised, the water is a MUCH better conductor than you
are.  Seems like a lot of water (like a creek) would be safer than just a
little.

Am I missing something?  If not, why aren't these guys trained better?

Chris


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On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:54 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> % Often the media gets their facts wrong. ***Requesting help to
> ID(identify)
> this car that lies deep down crashed in an Oregon creek. ?Is it an EV,
> hybrid or ice?  %
>
>
> https://katu.com/news/local/firefighters-extra-careful-when-electric-car-goes-into-creek
> Firefighters extra careful when electric car goes into creek
> 2018-11-09  KATU News
>
> [image
>
> https://static-18.sinclairstoryline.com/resources/media/36493257-fdd6-4bc8-b0f0-0276adb28b09-large16x9_electriccarintowater.jpg?1541835634261
> (Photo: Canby Fire Department)
> ]
>
> CANBY, Ore. —
>
> It was a tricky rescue Friday.
>
> A car went off Dryland road and into a creek.
>
> The part that made it tricky was it was an electric vehicle in water.
>
> So, the Canby Fire Department had to be extra careful freeing the driver.
>
> The victim was flown from the scene to a trauma center in a helicopter.
>
> No word yet on the driver's condition or on the cause of the crash.
> [© katu.com]
>
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/aNZSjLgLukt
> (map)  Dryland Road, Canby, OR  (~30mi south of Portland)
> ...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=volt+hybrid=isch
> image search  volt
> ...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=bolt+electric=isch
> image search  bolt
> ...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=prius+hybrid=isch
> image search  prius
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf key: $300! Yikes

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I bought my i-MiEV used and it only came with one original key.  That
wasn't going to be enough, so I took the OEM key to a locksmith and he was
able to clone it.  I don't remember, but I think it only cost like $50 -
$100.  ILCO makes the blanks and read/write equipment, and it seems to be
pretty commonly available.  Check with your locksmith to make sure.  The
clone has no buttons on it, but it talks to the ignition switch just fine.
I like it that way, since I'm apparently one of the 3 people left who
actually carries my keys in my pocket t all times. That's a problem with
the full-zoot keys/fobs, because getting jumbled in a pocket with stooping,
standing, leaning against stuff, etc. gets their buttons pushed and drains
the batteries.  Turns out unlocking the door manually (gasp!) isn't really
the inconvenience some think it is.

Chris

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 5:47 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Couldn't I just get any Nissan fob? Is anyone in the Bay area capable of
> programing fobs for less than hundred bucks? My son lost our key. Lawrence
> Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: €750k Alieno 5,221hp HyperEV.bg r:634mi

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I guess my problem is that I broke my own rule about trying to make sense
about something that is inherently irrational.  Hypercars are an utter
waste of time.  They are sold only to those with more money and ego than
sense.  Most of them are truly appalling as road vehicles. Bad ergos, worse
outward visibility, truckish ride, and the undeniable fact that you will
never get the thing into its happy place on the road without fairly begging
to be thrown in jail.  The only way to get it into its happy place is on a
race track, where it is hopelessly outclassed by the real race cars that
belong there because it has too many compromises for road use.  No one who
understands the concept of using the right tool for the job would bother
with one.

So its one and only use is for track days, where you just go fast without
competing because you can't.  And only a minute fraction of owners will do
that, because who wants to risk $50k - $100k or more for a minor tangle,
especially since at a track day you're surrounded by other racer wanabes,
not experienced racers.

The existence of hypercars is just one of those things that make one wonder
how we've lasted so long as a species.

Chris

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 7:03 PM Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Chris,
> It probably helps to realize that their largest battery alone weighs about
> 3,000 lbs, so add its support/enclosure and assume that they have been able
> to push the envelope and the battery is almost half the weight of the
> vehicle, then you see it is about 3 metric tonnes of car, which will need a
> lot of power to qualify as hypercar.
> But it is easy to dyno a single small motor to its peak hp and torque,
> multiply that by 24 and claim that is what the car can produce. If they do,
> they open their doors wide for lawsuits, when customers actually have their
> cars measured.
> And as you said, getting it to the road is yet another story, you can't
> drive around with tires glued to the pavement.
> Cor.
>
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 9:48 AM Chris Tromley via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Seems to me the most amazing achievement of this car has nothing to do
> with
> > the electric drivetrain, and everything to do the stunning advance in
> tire
> > technology that allows more than a small fraction of 5221 hp to be
> > transferred to the pavement.
> >
> > Or not.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:08 AM brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/alieno-is-an-electric-hypercar-that-will-generate-an-alleged-5-221-horsepower
> > > Alieno is an Electric Hypercar That Will Generate an Alleged
> > > 5,221-Horsepower
> > > 07/07/2018
> > >
> > > [images
> > > http://media.techeblog.com/images/alieno-electric-hypercar.jpg
> > > Alieno Electric Hypercar
> > >
> > > https://i.imgur.com/jSmv75v.jpg
> > >
> > > https://i.imgur.com/G1Cuul8.jpg
> > >
> > > https://images.carscoops.com/2018/07/de886807-alieno-arcanum-1.jpg
> > > ]
> > >
> > > Another day, another electric vehicle that just might change the entire
> > > supercar / hypercar scene. This time, it hails from Bulgaria, and
> called
> > > the
> > > "Alieno," with the flagship model generating an insane 5,221 hp and
> 6,490
> > > lb-ft of torque. The four different models will all be powered by a
> > direct
> > > drive electric powertrain that consists of six electric motors per
> wheel
> > > for
> > > a total of 24 small electric motors, each capable of being controlled
> > > individually. That's not all, it also boasts a robotic suspension
> > alongside
> > > traditional double wishbones, pushrods, and adjustable anti-roll bars.
> > > Continue reading for more pictures and information.
> > >
> > > "While Alieno hasn't published acceleration times, it claims the 5,221
> hp
> > > model will reach 303 mph. The size of the battery pack, complete with
> > > graphene LiPo cells and supercapacitors, varies between 60 kWh and 180
> > kWh
> > > and in its largest form, delivers up to 634 miles of range on a single
> > > charge. Alieno says its order books for the Arcanum are now open, with
> > > prices ranging from €750,000 ($878,000) to €1.5 million ($1.755
> million)
> > > depending on the model," reports Car Scoops.
> > > [© techeblog.com]
> > >
> > >
> > > +
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/porsche-taycan-spied-fake-exhaust-170003016.html

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: €750k Alieno 5,221hp HyperEV.bg r:634mi

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Seems to me the most amazing achievement of this car has nothing to do with
the electric drivetrain, and everything to do the stunning advance in tire
technology that allows more than a small fraction of 5221 hp to be
transferred to the pavement.

Or not.

Chris

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:08 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/alieno-is-an-electric-hypercar-that-will-generate-an-alleged-5-221-horsepower
> Alieno is an Electric Hypercar That Will Generate an Alleged
> 5,221-Horsepower
> 07/07/2018
>
> [images
> http://media.techeblog.com/images/alieno-electric-hypercar.jpg
> Alieno Electric Hypercar
>
> https://i.imgur.com/jSmv75v.jpg
>
> https://i.imgur.com/G1Cuul8.jpg
>
> https://images.carscoops.com/2018/07/de886807-alieno-arcanum-1.jpg
> ]
>
> Another day, another electric vehicle that just might change the entire
> supercar / hypercar scene. This time, it hails from Bulgaria, and called
> the
> "Alieno," with the flagship model generating an insane 5,221 hp and 6,490
> lb-ft of torque. The four different models will all be powered by a direct
> drive electric powertrain that consists of six electric motors per wheel
> for
> a total of 24 small electric motors, each capable of being controlled
> individually. That's not all, it also boasts a robotic suspension alongside
> traditional double wishbones, pushrods, and adjustable anti-roll bars.
> Continue reading for more pictures and information.
>
> "While Alieno hasn't published acceleration times, it claims the 5,221 hp
> model will reach 303 mph. The size of the battery pack, complete with
> graphene LiPo cells and supercapacitors, varies between 60 kWh and 180 kWh
> and in its largest form, delivers up to 634 miles of range on a single
> charge. Alieno says its order books for the Arcanum are now open, with
> prices ranging from €750,000 ($878,000) to €1.5 million ($1.755 million)
> depending on the model," reports Car Scoops.
> [© techeblog.com]
>
>
> +
>
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/porsche-taycan-spied-fake-exhaust-170003016.html?guccounter=1
> Porsche Taycan spied with fake exhaust tips
> 9 July 2018  51 minutes ago  Porsche is gearing up for what will most
> likely
> be the most revolutionary model in the brand's history. According to
> different sources, the all-electric Taycan will go ...
>
> https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/BlLPg8y0iqhcOtxq5b9W0Q--~A/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-GB/homerun/motor1_uk_340/b4664aecfe2ce1f4b0281288b9fd541a
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
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Re: [EVDL] Weatherproof boxes (Was: Juicebox)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 11:46 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> One of the mistakes folks make it to attempt to make the box completely
> sealed. You really can't seal a box effectively without going to extreme
> measures. It gets expensive to do this. Because of changes in
> temperature and atmospheric pressure, air will find some way to come it
> and out, dragging humidity and perhaps water with it. It is, as you say,
> best to accept the fact that a box will breathe and to deal effectively
> with that breathing.
>

​

All true, which was an even bigger issue decades ago when I was packaging
aircraft electronics.  Throw big pressure changes due to altitude into the
mix and a difficult problem gets much worse.

But then a simple and effective solution became available and the whole
issue disappeared. Gore, Donaldson and probably others make vent membranes
from expanded Teflon (Goretex) that allow water vapor to pass but not
liquid water.  Donaldson has a version that does the same for oils.  These
vents are packaged in a variety of forms and sizes, including bare membrane
dots with an adhesive ring.  They're not widely available in onsey-twosy
quantities, but they're out there.

So just build your box, make it water-tight (not too big a deal), drill a
hole somewhere and cover it with a vent membrane.  You just solved the
breathing problem, while keeping your electronical innards moisture-free.
Temperature changes can still cause internal vapor to condense, but if
there's even a little temp rise inside the box that generally goes away.
Conformal coating is still a good idea.  With that and an enclosure vent,
reliability of out-in-the-wind electronic equipment is vastly improved.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Harley Davidson

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Seth Rothenberg via EV 
wrote:

> I saw this in the news todaypeople seem to be of two minds about it
>
>
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-30/
> harley-davidson-is-making-an-electric-motorcycle-after-livewire


​Catching up on my list reading here,​ but this is an issue I can actually
contribute to.

It's well-known in the motorcycle biz that sales are dropping.  The average
age of a motorcyclist is pretty high, and that demographic is rapidly aging
out of the sport.  Millennials don't seem to care about driving cars, let
alone riding motorcycles.  This phenomenon hits Harley harder, because they
have built their entire business model on slavish devotion to brand without
much thought about technical advancement.  New Harleys are generally just
different paint, bodywork, wheels, etc.  What little technical changes they
make are driven mostly by the need to meet noise and emissions standards,
or to (just barely) keep up with the minimum advances in utility the rest
of the industry demands.  Today's Harleys are really just retro bikes (a
niche that tries to capture past glory in a somewhat-modernized current
bike), but Harley would never admit that.  They make a huge amount of their
profits from clothing, accessories and nick-knacks.

A recent new hot rod model of the 750 Street (more below) is less capable
and a lot less versatile than the Honda 750 that upended the entire
industry 40 years ago.  So basically, Harleys are for riders who value
style more than substance, or who can convince themselves there is
substance where there is in fact very little.  The bikes themselves aren't
terrible, and even fit some limited purposes quite well for some riders
with limited needs, but generally Harley is WAY behind in making
motorcycles that really work.  It's not about the bikes.  It's all brand
and culture.

Harley has tried to break out of this mold.  They created the Buell
subsidiary that made very tasty sport, naked and even ADV bikes with Harley
engines.  There was a small but very devoted following of those bikes,
whose biggest complaint was that they had to go to a Harley dealer and wade
through the 'lifestyle' and pro-Harley, anti-Buell vibe there to get what
they wanted.  Sales were low, executives thought it undercut the Harley
ethos, so they dropped the whole line.

Harley made the V-Rod, a relatively advanced (water cooled!) performance
bike with a drag racing flavor, which also sold in very small numbers and
was dropped.  The V-Rod was really not such a big deviation from their
other products, but the faithful didn't think it was a 'real' Harley.  So
it died.

They built the Streets, 500 and 750 cc 'entry level' bikes to bring in new
riders.  This is an international effort with factories in other
countries.  They're getting some limited sales, but American riders are
mostly staying away.  They want American made, which makes the American
versions more expensive, even with parts from places like India.  And there
is a very well-established wing of the cruiser market called metric
cruisers that sprung up decades ago to cash in on the Harley image.  The
Streets are really metric cruisers.  All the other players are much more
technically advanced and polished than Harley, so Harley is in the
embarrassing position of not measuring up to a market they indirectly
created.

Enter the Livewire.  As you might imagine from the above, the Livewire will
have an uphill battle in a Harley showroom.  It smacks of a desperate
attempt to bring in millennials.  The only competition in the EM space is
Zero, so if the Livewire is release with a 50 mile range it will be DOA.
The base Zero S (which few buy) has a range of 60 miles (combined), and
options bring that to 108 and 138 miles.  The SR goes up to 150.  Zero has
been doing this for many years, and has earned their market-leading
position.  I think they would welcome some competition.  I doubt they're
worried.

What I'd really like to see is Polaris (Harley's biggest competitor with
the Indian brand) bringing back the Empluse.  Maybe the Livewire release
will be incentive enough to do that, and give the EM market some buzz
again.  Sadly, the best result probably won't happen.  The Bloomberg
article makes the briefest mention of the Mission R, but Mission
Motorcycles went bankrupt years ago.  That was due to market forces and the
goals of the moneyed interests involved, not at all to do with the
motorcycles themselves.  Someone needs to buy up the assets of Mission and
bring back the R in a gentlemans' express version, not the racer-crouch
sportbike it was initially released as.  That would give the EM industry a
Tesla Model S on two wheels.  It's gorgeous, extremely capable and has a
price that hasn't deterred ICE-based low volume manufacturers (like Motus)
from remaining viable, profitable and growing.

See

[EVDL] Anti-EV dealer

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Had an interesting encounter at the Mitsubishi dealer last night.  I had
been in the night before to drop of my i-MiEV to reset an errant SRS
(airbag) light.  I kindly older gent in a dealer logo shirt helped me take
care of that.  Last night to pick it up the same guy came out as I was
going in, and he stopped me to ask how I liked my car.  I told him I loved
it, but didn't press the issue because I wan't to get back home.

Turns out he owns the place.  He informed me (in the most friendly, car
dealer kind of way), that he refuses to sell the i-MiEV there.  The short
version of his reasoning is that whenever he gets an electric trade-in
(even the Toyotas!), the batteries are toast and they're "running on the
engine only."  He "just doesn't want to see the customers get hurt."  (And
BTW, the only plug-ins we get here in PA are full electric.  And I'm pretty
sure my i-MiEV is one of maybe 3 that he's ever seen.)

I was being as polite as possible, but I must have given him a "that makes
no sense at all' sort of expression.  He then proceeded to tell me that the
Space Station has 7000 - 8000 lbs of batteries, which they need because
they "just keep going through them" - they're just not reliable enough.  He
saw he was getting no traction with me so he nicely but abruptly broke off
the conversation.

Just for a giggle I googled when I got home.  At
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/01/spacewalkers-upgrading-iss-batteries/
I found that the ISS batteries are NiH2 and they're very reliable but
they're reaching the end of their lives.  So they swapped some out for
lithium this year, and those have vastly improved performance and energy
density.

Is this typical of the looney-toons crapola people have to deal with when
buying an EV?  Seriously - that was some truly 'out-there' BS he was
shoveling, and he did so as if it was as evident as the sky being blue.

We humans have SO much evolving yet to do.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Rebuilding an orphan lithium battery pack. Zuumer

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Lawrence,

Check out LunaCycle.com.  They make their own e-bike battery packs from an
ever-widening selection of 18650 cells that are typically 3.7 V nominal.
If your chemistry is a little lower voltage you'd be slightly undercharging
them, which I understand is good for cycle life.  Their packs come with
their own BMS, though I believe it does not include protect against a cell
failing short.  (Which I guess is more in how the pack is assembled than a
function of the BMS.)

The sense I get from the LunaCycle site is that they are a small enough
company that they can handle the occasional custom pack.  IF you have a
chat with them you might be able to get some general pointers and the
dimensions of their BMS, which would allow you to give them an envelope
size for the pack you want.  Their prices seem reasonable.  I think it's
worth a shot.

Chris


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> I have checked out some of the 10ah batteries and they use 5p 7 s. so my
> using 4p higher quality/capacity batteries will give me one more ah than
> the original. They will also be a little lighter and give more space for
> cooling.  The pouch type batteries had no space for cooling.  Now all I
> need is spacers and BMS.  I can reuse the old charger. 29.4 for 7 18650 in
> series.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Clark blames autopilot for flipping his 2016 Tesla on it's roof in a MN marsh> slightly hurt

[Chris Tromley via EV]

This article has been updated.  The driver now claims he did not intend to
blame the Tesla for the crash, and has asked the Sheriff's Dept. to amend
its report.  It's not clear that they want to do that.

Chris

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 11:46 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Clark-blames-
> autopilot-for-flipping-his-2016-Tesla-on-it-s-roof-top-
> in-a-MN-marsh-gt-slightly-hurt-td4687370.html
> Clark blames autopilot for flipping his 2016 Tesla on it's roof/top in a MN
> marsh> slightly hurt
> Twin Cities man blames autopilot after Tesla rolls into marsh
> A Twin Cities man whose Tesla overturned in a central Minnesota marsh is
> blaming the crash on the luxury ... he was driving Saturday evening before
> sunset on a country road 18 miles northeast of Willmar, when the ... car
> "suddenly ... Tesla ends up on it's roof in swamp near Spicer...auto pilot
> blamed ... (Irving Township, MN) ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-
> discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Clark-blames-
> autopilot-for-flipping-his-2016-Tesla-on-it-s-roof-in-a-
> MN-marsh-slightly-hurt-tp4687371.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Other sources of insight are bentrideronline.com and recumbents.com.  Both
have forums specifically for velomobiles, which is what you're building.
Recumbents.com also has a lot of info on racing HPVs, which will get into
efficiency, etc.  IHPVA.org might be a good source too.

Chris

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the
> thing.  Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good
> success with efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph
> with a 20 inch wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc
> but I'm willing to go higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or
> performance).  I will eventually have a shell with solar panels plus my 250
> pound hunk O' fat.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EV Spare Tire

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:22 PM, SLPinfo.org via EV 
wrote:

> Mark,
>
> A spare is certainly good advice but on my I-Miev that would mean 2 spares
> since the front and rear tires are different sizes.  Hence spares are not
> included; they only give you a can of fix-a-flat type stuff.


​On the i-MiEV, not only are the front and rear tires different sizes, the
wheels are different widths.  And neither will even mount​ on the other end
of the car, because of some adapter-spacer thingy that prevents it.  And
even if you get past all of that, the front and rear rolling diameters must
be proportionally different by just the right amount, or the ABS has a
hissy fit, stops working and lights up the dash like a Christmas tree.
 (Dunlop and Yokohama are the only mfrs that make matched sets.
Continental appears to, but if you try you will get the scenario described
above.)

That fix-a-flat stuff is a royal pain in the heiny, and something you
should never subject a tire repairman to.  I replaced that with a tire plug
kit.  Still working on a way to get a small scissors jack in there so you
can at least get the wheel off the car.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trike project.

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Lawrence,

Go to LunaCycle.com and look at the Bafang BBS02 mid drive.  These are far
more versatile than a hub motor because you can use the trike's gearing,
making real-life hills MUCH easier.  The BBS01 is officially a 750W system,
but LunaCycle hotrods it (reliably) to like 1300W.  Not sure what the BBS02
tops out at - it's officially a 1000W system.

It's possible hub motors get better peak efficiency, but mid drive e-bikes
have shown their superiority in real world use.

LunaCycle also makes battery packs with various 18650 cells with built-in
BMS.  Spend some time on their site.

Chris

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Hello all,
> As some of you might know I have been obsessed with solar vehicles for a
> few years.  After the success of Team Einhoven  for many years I have a
> project which is 1/4 the size of their machine and for me a good place to
> start economically while doable physically.  I have found a source of solar
> cells on ebay(might not be the best quality but I didn't look long.  I can
> always change the supplier) 100 cells will give me a 355w panel at 50 to 60
> volts. 1/4 the power of Stella Lux.  I could run a 48v system.  Maybe a
> little more.  7 to 8 Leaf cells would give me 3.5 to 4kw system. 50.2 to 57
> volt system.  The panel would be roughly equivalent to the pack in voltage
> making the charging semi simple.  I have no experience charging lithium or
> in building a 3 foot by 6 foot solar panel but aside from this the main
> challenge will be encapsulating not only the solar cells but the trike to
> get very good coefficient of drag.  My speed will also be less.  I want to
> top out at 30mph level ground under power.  This vehicle will be a moped
> under California law maxing out at 2000 watts motive power.  I already
> bought the trike for 600 dollars.  The cells will cost less than 250
> dollars including shipping.  The Leaf cells of which I need 8 are
> negotiable.  Then the electric conversion kit for the Terra trike.  Charger
> and BMS.  If I have done my math I may get my 30mph top speed on level
> ground just using the solar panels.  But I'd be happy with 25 mph.  I need
> an efficient 2000 watt drive train. I'm leaning toward a hub motor. I need
> good BMS and charger and maybe an inverter or some way of putting power to
> the batteries without burning them up if I go old school bad boy.  Thanks
> for any advice. Lawrence Rhodeshttps://s-media-cache-
> ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5b/8f/f8/5b8ff8d7102813a71db79d470e7e52a9.jpg
> Utah Trikes - Jim's Fargo
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |   ||
>
>|
>
>   |
> |
> ||
> Utah Trikes - Jim's Fargo
>  All-weather trike  |   |
>
>   |
>
>   |
>
>  https://www.pinterest.com/pin/22447698114328862/
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Re: [EVDL] Battery Connections

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:06 AM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Robert,
> Welding. Their 24V modules consist of 6 series banks of several dozen
> cells in parallel,
> It really is enlightening to look at some high-res pictures of a module,
> you can even find them
> On Ebay. You will see that each module consists of a "U" where
> alternatingly (starting from one
> Contact) the metal plate with the welded wires carries the current back
> and forth in 3 sections
> In each leg of the "U" and the contacts on the top of the "U".
> It is clearly visible in this ad for example:
> www.ebay.com/itm/10x-Tesla-18650/162462368115
> Cor.


​It seems to me the reason for each cell in a parallel group being attached
to that common sheet with a small gauge wire is that if any cell fails
short it will pop that wire as a fuse and prevent all the other cells from
shorting through that cell and setting it on fire.  Am I correct in that
assumption?  It this something that's missing from all the other
aftermarket BMS systems?

Chris​
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Re: [EVDL] Adapting L1 to 14-50 receptacle

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 10:22 PM, Roger Stockton via EV 
wrote:

> Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> However, you will *not* pull 3kW from anything ;^>
>

​D'oh!  [slaps forehead]

Of course Roger and Cor are both right.  I guess I'm just giddy from using
my recently-installed JuiceBox L2 charger and finally getting my full 3.3
kW potential.​

I might actually be tempted to diddle with the internals of my brick to
soup it up, except for the mechanicals involved.  It appears to have been
made with a snap-together case, which can be very easy to destroy if you
don't know beforehand how the snaps work.  Sometimes they're designed so
they can't be undone without breaking something.  An L1 brick with
compromised weatherproofing isn't worth much.  (At least not for long.)

But that won't stop me from poking at it carefully to see if I can open
it.  Thanks guys!

Chris
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[EVDL] Adapting L1 to 14-50 receptacle

[Chris Tromley via EV]

​My used iMiEV came with a no-name L1 charging brick.  I mean literally no
name - there's no ID on the thing, only an ETL logo and some minimal
instructions zip-tied to the power cord.  It does clearly say 120 VAC,
which surprised me.  I thought these things generally had universal input.​

I'm trying to broaden my opportunity charging opportunities, and there is a
Tesla store in a mall in my area that has a charging area in the parking
garage.  Apparently Teslas use a 14-50 (RV or electric range) outlet in
addition to their proprietary port and they have several available.  (And
the plugshare blurb shows a Leaf charging there, so it looks like they're
OK with that.  But yes, I'll ask.)

So here's my question.  A 14-50 has a neutral, so I'm pretty sure I can
adapt my brick to it by simply tapping one leg of the 240 V.  Is there
anything subtle that I'm missing?  Like if there are a bunch of these
outlets fed by a single panel and I pull 3 kW off one leg of one, is that
an issue?  Anything else?

I'm thinking it'll be fine, but I'm not comfortable deciding that on my
own.  (Such is the challenge of being an electrical dolt in an EV world.)

TIA,
Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla with auto pilot predicts accident.

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Watch the video carefully.  The Tesla may not be reacting to the SUV in
front of the red car.  Look at the car in front of the SUV - three cars
ahead of the Tesla, which is what the SUV is braking hard to avoid.  That
car was the cause of the accident.

If seeing that far ahead seem a bit of a stretch, note that there is a
clear line of sight between the Tesla and the third car ahead.  The Tesla
can't see much, only maybe a foot of the left side of the instigator, but
perhaps enough to get a clear indication of an impending crash.

It can't be known whether the Tesla alarmed due to seeing the SUV or the
car ahead of it, but let's be clear - the Tesla did not "predict" a crash.
It only responded to what it could see.  That depends on how sensitive it's
sensors are, how many and where the sensors are, and whether or not traffic
arranges itself in a way to reveal itself to the sensors.  This incident
might have played out very differently (and sadly) if all the cars were in
line with each other and/or the SUV had been a sedan.

Don't get me wrong, driver assist can be a very good thing.  But my stomach
turns when the hype kicks in and people start believing tech can do things
it can't.

Chris

On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
wrote:

> The car has radar, lidar, and multiple cameras. It can "see" cars around
> it that the driver does not. It does not merely "see" the cars immediately
> surrounding itself. It gathers information about _all_ the objects it can
> perceive. It is a very very sophisticated system.
>
> Also, the brakelights on the SUV are clearly visible though the windows of
> the red car that was in between. The autopilot would see the brakelights
> and the changing position of the SUV, etc. and realize the SUV was slowing
> down rapidly.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 12/28/2016 4:46 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
>> It very clearly predicted the accident with an audible alarm IMO.
>> Probably sees there relative speeds off of gps in their phones or car NAB
>> systems. I'm amazed what one can learn about traffic with just google maps.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Should I Buy a Smart ED or a IMIEV or Chevy Spark?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:


> Say, can you read the individual cell voltages on the iMiEV like the
> Leaf-Spy on the OBD-2 port?  I assume I could just use my OBD-2 reader I
> use
> on the Prius and Insight that reads codes but don't know for sure.


​You can with the caniOn smart phone app for android.  It's free, but
requires a Bluetooth-enabled OBD dongle.  Lots of good info including
real-time individual cell voltage monitoring.

Chris​
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Re: [EVDL] Peugeot iOn EV(Euro-iMiev) has 2 bad cells> ?Repair covered by the warranty?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

From hanging round the myimiev forum I've learned that the warranty on the
iMiev battery was extended to 10 years and 100k miles.  There have been
relatively few packs that needed to be replaced, and Mitsubishi has been
very cooperative in handling those replacements, without regard for whether
the claim is submitted by the first or subsequent owners.

I'd try the dealer, and expect that there might be some reluctance on their
part simply due to the fact that many dealers have never even seen one of
these cars and don't know what to expect from Mitsubishi.  Once the factory
is engaged, all should go smoothly.

The myimiev forum is pretty international, so this should apply wherever
the problem arises.

Chris

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 5:35 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> % Note: Peugeot iOn EVs are sold in Europe & are similar to iMiev EVs %
>
> http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/70476/electric-
> vehicle-battery-warranty
> Electric vehicle battery warranty
> 20160930
>
> [-Question] I recently bought a Peugot Ion electric vehicle, 3 years old
> but
> with very low mileage. I am generally delighted with the car but
> disappointed with the battery performance so did some checks to discover it
> was only charging to about 80% of its advertised capacity, and seems to
> have
> 2 cells (of 88) performing much worse than the others. I think this would
> indicate a defective battery which should be fixed under the 5 year battery
> warranty. The problem is, all batteries suffer degradation in normal use,
> and nowhere does the warranty say exactly what constitutes a defective
> battery.
>
> Is there any 'case law' regarding what an EV battery warranty should cover?
> I have not spoken to Peugot yet - wanted to get my facts straight first.
> Asked on 30 September 2016 by cdm9955
>
>
> -Answered by Honest John [ http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/
> profiles/honest-john/
> ]
> No specific case law that I know of. You are correct that these batteries
> gradually lose their capacity to hold a full charge, but if the battery in
> the car you bought came with a couple of failed cells then that is a fault
> that was present in the vehicle before you bought it and the supplier of
> the
> car is liable: www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/consumer-rights/
> [© honestjohn.co.uk]
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.0catch.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-
> discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Peugeot-iOn-EV-
> Euro-iMiev-has-2-bad-cells-Repair-covered-by-the-warranty-tp4683904.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] She crashes& blames Tesla> 16k/yr driver 'pushing-accelerator-for-the-brake' crashes

[Chris Tromley via EV]

It may be much more basic than that.  Back in the days of the Audi 5000,
when there was precious little software involved and accelerators were
operated through cables, they had a then-famous issue with unintended
acceleration.  It may have been the first time this issue came to public
light.

There's a long, ridiculous and embarrassing story about it that gave the TV
show 60 Minutes its biggest black eye ever, but the final assessment was
that the car's pedals were in a position a little unlike other cars.  So
when your muscle memory sent your right foot to the brake pedal, it could
actually go to the accelerator for some people some times, depending.

As I recall, Audi's problem inspired all the other auto manufacturers to
re-evaluate the entire seat/wheel/pedal ergonomic package in their cars to
ensure they wouldn't end up in Audi's position.  That idiotic 60 Minutes
show put a world of hurt on Audi's sales for years.

It's not enough to say the driver pressed the accelerator instead of the
brake.  You also need to ensure your pedals are where the driver expects
them to be.  Maybe Tesla did that and this accident was a fluke.  Or maybe
this is one of those subtleties that can catch a young automaker
off-guard.  Who knows?  If Tesla wants to make a statement, that's what
they should address.

Chris

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 2:45 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 28 Sep 2016 at 3:23, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > (Video) Another Tesla Model S crash brings innocent driver,
>
> Brings innocent driver WHAT?  The headline makes no sense, even when you
> read the story.  Bloody illiterate "journalists."
>
> Didactic rant over.  Now on to my main point.
>
> "In every situation where we have received a customer claim about this, the
> vehicle´s diagnostic logs have confirmed that the acceleration was the
> result of the driver pressing the accelerator pedal," commented Tesla ..
>
> Does anyone here know the details of how Tesla's logging system reads the
> accelerator position?
>
> I'm not saying there IS a bug, just speculating here -- but in a generic
> sense, which could apply to any fly-by-wire vehicle, suppose there's a bug
> in the hardware or software that tells the controller how far the
> accelerator is depressed.
>
> I know there are fail-safes; for example most or all cars have multiple
> TPSes and they all have to agree before the computer acts.  But as they
> told
> us in computer science class, it's impossible to prove correct any program
> more than one page long.  I can see it happening in any fly-by-wire car,
> not
> just a Tesla.
>
> If such a bug tells the vehicle computer that the accelerator is full on
> when it isn't, AND the monitoring system uses that same interface, wouldn't
> it also tell the monitoring system that the pedal was full on when it
> isn't?
>
> Do we know that all these manufacturers using fly-by-wire accelerators,
> including Tesla, have totally separate sensors and totally separate
> software
> and processors monitoring accelerator position and all the rest -- just for
> record-keeping and/or reporting via mobile data connection?
>
> Or do they rely on the same software that's sending go/stop/turn signals to
> the controller?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Nissan.ca sez 'No' To Leaf-Group-Buy> ticking-off 3700+ EV buyers = a lose-lose

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I have little doubt that there are all sorts of contractual restrictions
regarding who Nissan can sell to directly, what constitutes an acceptable
fleet buyer, etc.  The only rational way to do this is to contact Nissan
first, before putting anyone's name on a list.

There is no justifiable reason for anyone to get "ticked off".  This was
poorly executed from the start.

The only reason this happened is that people were already ticked off at how
hard it is to buy a Leaf in the first place.  The solution starts with
dealers who want to sell them.
On Aug 30, 2016 10:54 AM, "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
wrote:

> On 30 Aug 2016 at 14:35, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>
> > If non dealerships can buy wholesale, then they will be selling to
> costco,
> > walmart, and the boy scouts.
>
> I think I'd probably be OK with buying a Leaf at Costco.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
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Re: [EVDL] hub motor for 20" wheels

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Just realized you're looking for a 36V solution and the Currie setup is for
24V.  Go to http://evdeals.com/Currie%20Kit.htm and see their similar kit
and options.  Theirs is 24V too, but call Scott at 508-695-3717.  I'm
guessing some of his motor options could be run at 36V just fine, and
you'll need to overspeed it anyway to get that tiny 20" rear wheel up to
20-25 mph.  It's a good bet that Scott will know if that's feasible.

The main advantages with this approach are that you keep your original
wheel and there's less weight added to it.  Not a small concern for a bike
with a suspended rear wheel.  Understand if you do this it will ride
harsher just because of the added weight on the wheel.

Chris

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Chris Tromley  wrote:

> A Currie E Drive (or similar) setup might work.
>
> http://www.electricscooterparts.com/currieelectrodriveelectricbicy
> clekitparts.html
>
> Chris
>
> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 5:29 PM, ken via EV  wrote:
>
>>   I have a Bike E with 20" back wheel . Where can I find a reasonably
>> priced wheel thats desgined to be effeient for  that RPM / 20- 25 mph
>> and 36 volts.
>>
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Re: [EVDL] hub motor for 20" wheels

[Chris Tromley via EV]

A Currie E Drive (or similar) setup might work.

http://www.electricscooterparts.com/currieelectrodriveelectricbicyclekitparts.html

Chris

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 5:29 PM, ken via EV  wrote:

>   I have a Bike E with 20" back wheel . Where can I find a reasonably
> priced wheel thats desgined to be effeient for  that RPM / 20- 25 mph
> and 36 volts.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> I did not know you need to be a tech junkie
> to understand and confirm the on-screen warning message
> "You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times
> and take over the driving as needed"
> when you engage "autopilot".


​No, but it helps.

As quaint as this may sound, the world of computers is different from the
world of cars.  At least in terms of user interface.

How often do you habitually click through ​dialog boxes on your way to
opening a computer application?  (And how often has that caused a problem?)
 Could it be that confirming the Tesla on-screen message becomes blind
habit after a few times?  I do understand that we're in a transition here,
with cars becoming rolling computers.  But perhaps it's worth re-examining
that user interface.  The consequences of not paying attention aren't so
bad when you're launching a favorite feature in your entertainment system.
It's quite another matter when it applies to vehicle guidance.

These are the things that turn up when you do a thorough human factors
evaluation on a game-changing new use of technology.  Unfortunately it's
frequently not done in the tech world because very few new tech apps are
life-critical.  You know, just launch it and see how many people bite.  You
can't do that with life-critical tech and blindly expect smooth sailing.

​A long time ago you could get into any unfamiliar car and make use of all
its features​.  That's been harder to do for the last decade or so and the
trend continues, but driver aids or autonomy or whatever you want to call
them are putting a distinct inflection point in that curve.  We need to
deal with that.  At what point does one need training to properly drive an
unfamiliar car, like a pilot needs training to fly a new type of aircraft?
High tech being used properly by Everyman is actually a pretty difficult
thing to pull off well.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Willie2 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 07/29/2016 08:00 AM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:
>
>> Trying to jump the gun, or even worse, calling what we have now
>> "autopilot"
>> is beyond idiotic.  I have a great deal of respect for Elon Musk, but that
>> is the stupidest thing I've seen him do.
>>
> Have you driven a Tesla with AutoPilot?


​No, and I fail to see how that is relevant.​

​I'm sure ​it does what it does very well.  But what it does is *not* what
would be expected by a non-technical person when you call it "autopilot."
 That is, being able to let the car drive itself.  (So you can watch a
movie.  Or sleep on the way to work.)

Don't start with an admonishment to read the manual.  It is well known that
many people don't.  When you call a feature or suite of features something
misleading, and that package is critical to passenger safety, tragic
results follow.  All so the public will perceive Tesla as being 'leading
edge' and at parity with Google and other automakers on the SDV bandwagon.

Musk is a very tech-savvy guy.  Most of the public is not.  Where I live it
seems there are as many Teslas as Mercedes.  What that should tell Musk is
that his customers are buying his cars because they are good cars and they
are a status symbol.  *Not* because those customers are tech junkies and
will see past the marketing spin that the term "autopilot" is in describing
Tesla's driver aids.  They are actually pretty clueless, taking the
description literally and putting themselves and others at risk.  Musk got
way ahead of himself on this one.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I'm against SDVs now, but I also disagree they are a dead end.  The problem
here is that it's just plain stupid to try to go from zero autonomy to full
autonomy in one rapid sweep.  Not only is the tech not ready, the public
isn't ready.  This is a huge change, and we humans aren't well suited to
huge changes all at once.

Stop the marketing-driven "we were here first" wars and focus on genuinely
beneficial driver enhancements.  Do what Tesla is doing by extending the
perceptions of the driver, even stepping in to a limited degree when the
driver is not quick enough.  Take that farther than what Tesla has done by
adding IR vision, head-up display and other enhancements.

Enhanced driver aids will evolve into full autonomy on their own timetable
and be better for it.  Far more importantly, the public's understanding of
what this stuff does and does not do will evolve too.

Trying to jump the gun, or even worse, calling what we have now "autopilot"
is beyond idiotic.  I have a great deal of respect for Elon Musk, but that
is the stupidest thing I've seen him do.

Chris
On Jul 27, 2016 6:25 PM, "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
wrote:

> This discussion is technically off-topic for the EVDL, but it seems to
> strike a chord every time it comes up.  At least this time it's in
> connection with an EV, the Chevrolet Bolt (or is it now BoltEV?).
>
> At least here in the US, people barely tolerate human error.  That's why we
> have so many lawsuits.  They don't accept machine error any better  --
> maybe
> less well.  They blame the manufacturer or software author for foul-ups,
> and
> who can blame them?
>
> In day to day conversations I already find that this is what the average
> person now knows and says about Tesla:  that their autopilot killed a
> driver.  That's a pretty dubious distinction for Tesla to have, no?
>
> Now imagine how parents -- and the media -- will react the first time a SDV
> accident kills a kid or two.
>
> Proably well-designed SDVs will have a better accident record than normal
> vehicles. That won't make any difference to Americans, though.  It's my
> observation that Americans are, by and large, not especially rational.
> They're ruled by their emotions.  Advertising and politics prove that every
> day.
>
> That regrettable orientation continues to spread round the world.  So not
> only American consumers, but probably those in most other nations, will
> reject SDVs unless they're 100% perfect, completely accident-free, or at
> least fatality-free.
>
> Economically, SDVs will never be viable in the US unless the automakers
> manage to convince either congress or state legislatures to give them
> blanket immunity from liability.  Otherwise the cost of defending
> themselves
> against the inevitable lawsuits from the families of their victims will
> make
> it impossible for them to make a profit on SDVs.
>
> Even if they do get such legislation passed, the bad PR from accidents
> (which you KNOW will be MUCH more widely reported than conventional vehicle
> accidents) will choke off sales.
>
> IMO, SDVs are a dead end.  Better we should take all the money going into
> SDV research and apply it to expanding light rail service.  Now THAT'S a
> safe and proven "self-driving vehicle" experience.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM’s 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless(autonomous) Lyft platform

[Chris Tromley via EV]

This whole autonomous vehicle circus has been a PR disaster, thanks in
large part to Tesla calling their system "autopilot".  No one stops to
realize the real autopilot (as used in aircraft) is little more than cruise
control.  And when you're in the vicinity of anything you could hit, you're
not permitted to use it.

A fully autonomous road vehicle is a challenge several orders of magnitude
more complex.  Since everyone is in a frantic race to be the first with a
commercially available system, I predict injury and fatality rates will
rise while profits take priority over technical maturity, then hopefully
peak, fall and level off.

You won't find me in such a vehicle until that happens.  There's a limit to
my desire to be an early adopter.
On Jul 25, 2016 1:36 PM, "paul dove via EV"  wrote:

> No one has a working autonomous vehicle including Tesla. Tesla even states
> the the driver must monitor the vehicle and warns you when you take your
> heads off the wheel
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 25, 2016, at 8:59 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > GM must have teleported their software staff and prototypes to another
> planet because, compared to Google, they sure don't have many miles of
> autonomous testing here to brag about. And even Google isn't ready. Or
> Tesla.
> >
> > If you think the world has a problem with terrorism, get ready to watch
> out for kamikaze cars !
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Sent: 25-Jul-16 12:20:55 AM
> > Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: GM’s 1st 200mi EV will launch as a
> driverless(autonomous) Lyft platform
> >
> >> [ref
> >>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-GM-s-first-200mi-EV-will-launch-as-a-driverless-autonomous-Lyft-platform-td4683041.html
> >> ]
> >>
> >> 'Germany plans “black box” recorder rule for Autopilot-cars'
> >>
> >>
> http://www.techinsider.io/gms-first-autonomous-car-will-be-electric-and-launch-on-lyft-2016-7
> >> GM’s first fully autonomous car will be electric and launch on Lyft
> >> 20160718  Cadie Thompson
> >>
> >> [images
> >>
> http://static4.techinsider.io/image/578d538088e4a778008b8e38-968/screen%20shot%202016-07-18%20at%206.07.51%20pm.png
> >> / Cruise Automation
> >>
> >>
> http://static2.techinsider.io/image/578d52d788e4a78c148b8ea9-1440/chevy%20bolt.jpg
> >> Chevy Bolt  / Chevrolet
> >> ]
> >>
> >> General Motors' first fully autonomous car will be electric, available
> to
> >> just about anyone, and it could be here before you know it.
> >>
> >> The company plans to bring its self-driving cars to the masses by
> launching
> >> its first driverless on the Lyft platform, Pam Fletcher, executive chief
> >> engineer of autonomous tech at GM, told Tech Insider.
> >>
> >> Fletcher would not share specifics about timing, but she did say the
> >> company’s first fully autonomous car will be available via the
> ride-sharing
> >> service sooner than you may expect.
> >>
> >> "We have not made that announcement yet, but what I would say is this
> is all
> >> coming much faster than people anticipate, so I’ll say that much. We
> have
> >> been transparent about that,” she said. “We are working on an on-demand
> >> ride-sharing network with Lyft, it’s not something we are thinking
> about,
> >> it’s something we are very much readying for consumer use.”
> >>
> >> Fletcher, who formerly served as GM's executive chief engineer for
> electric
> >> vehicles, said the company’s first autonomous car would also be
> electric.
> >>
> >> GM, of course, is making a big push into the electric car market with
> the
> >> launch of the BoltEV, a fully electric, long-range vehicle slated to
> roll
> >> out later this year.
> >>
> >> While the BoltEV will be available for purchase, it is specifically
> aimed at
> >> urban mobility and was designed with ride-sharing in mind, Fletcher
> said.
> >>
> >> Autonomous cars make sense as electric vehicles because they offer the
> >> passenger a better experience, she said.
> >>
> >> “They (EVs) operate very smoothly, they operate very quietly,
> seamlessly,
> >> and so you can create this very positive experience inside the car,” she
> >> said. “People they want that, they want to get in the car and for it to
> feel
> >> like a cocoon, so they can take a nap or have a conference,”
> >>
> >> In January at CES, GM announced that it was making a $500 million
> investment
> >> in Lyft and said that it was working with the ride-sharing company to
> create
> >> a network of on-demand autonomous vehicles.
> >>
> >> In March, GM announced it was buying the self-driving car startup Cruise
> >> Automation to help strengthen its autonomous efforts and in May it was
> >> revealed that Cruise was testing its self-driving tech on the Bolt.
> >>
> >> However, the company told Tech Insider that currently Lyft’s efforts and
> >> Cruise’s Bolt tests are separate programs. But 

Re: [EVDL] ev beeper

[Chris Tromley via EV]

if it's a scooter it has a handlebar.  Just go to a bike store and buy an
old fashioned bicycle bell.  Self-contained right there on the bar, no
wiring, pleasant 'shing-shing' sound.  I've even considered using one for
my electric car, but it becomes more difficult to operate it remotely.

Chris

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 12:40 AM, ken via EV  wrote:

>  My Ev scooter needs some kinda of low speed sound.
> I have 2 horns buttons the second could run a Ding Dong or??
>
> Looking for something pleasant as not to scare very important bicycles or
> joggers.
>
> some kids things or squezzy horn?
>
> IDEAS???
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Knockoff.cn motivation> $24k Lit C–1 self-balancing 2whl EV r:150mi ts:100mph

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I've said it before and I'll repeat it here.  A self-balancing motorcycle
is a mind-crushingly complex problem to solve.  Lit recently brought on a
highly qualified controls engineer, but they still haven't shown a video of
a prototype doing anything but very slow and ultra-basic moves.  In the
real world you need to handle multiple overlapping transitions in real
time.  Lit doesn't get that concept, nor do they have the technical
horsepower to get there.

Motorcycles and cars use very different approaches to steering.  Lit has
chosen to use the car approach in their motorcycle - which not only adds to
the technical challenge, but also guarantees this vehicle's dynamics will
feel weird to both car drivers and motorcycle riders.

I fear Lit, and now its Chinese copycat, will become very expensive
failures.

Chris
On Jun 21, 2016 6:48 AM, "brucedp5 via EV"  wrote:

> [ref
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Knockoffs-cn-motivate-gt-24k-Lit-C-1-self-balancing-2whl-EV-r-150mi-ts-100mph-td4682694.html
> ]
>
> % Always a yrsold prototype, never a product4sale> still trolling4$ %
>
> http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/lit-motors-aev-gets-chinese-knockoff/
> Lit Motors is readying its auto-balancing two-wheeler as a Chinese
> challenger appears
> June 18, 2016  Albert Khoury
>
> [image
> http://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/lit_motors-c1_05-2-640x0.jpg
> lit motors aev gets chinese knockoff
> ]
>
> It’s been nearly five years since Lit Motors unveiled its C-1
> Auto-Balancing
> Electric Vehicle (AEV), which was slated to go on sale in 2013. The San
> Francisco-based company has yet to put it into production, and now one
> Chinese company is taking advantage of the delay.
>
> The lightweight C–1 commuter is laid out like a motorcycle, but Lit Motors
> promises a greater degree of safety. The vehicle’s gyroscopic stability
> technology keeps it from tipping over, and an early video even showed a
> dramatization of it recovering after being struck by a car.
>
> Over 1,000 people have placed reservations for a C-1, but they’re going to
> have to wait a while to take delivery. Elektrek reports that after
> receiving
> funding from Mark Pincus, co-founder and CEO at Zynga, and Larry Page,
> co-founder of Google and CEO of Alphabet, Lit Motors is looking for more
> money. In a recent conference, Kim said that with $20 million, production
> can commence in about 24 months.
>
> Lit Motors CEO Danny Kim composed a letter to hopeful customers this week,
> updating them on the stages of progress. “In addition to developing EP-5,
> we
> unlocked the doors to our storage facility and revived our beloved
> prototype
> EP-4 for dynamics testing,” Kim stated. “After installing a new custom
> battery pack, we are rediscovering all of the elegant, innovative solutions
> we made to this piece of engineering/design history.”
>
> Kim also mentioned that the company will be offering test drives in San
> Francisco for those who pre-ordered a vehicle.
>
> Chinese companies have come under fire many times (with little repercussion
> in many cases) for blatantly ripping off vehicle designs from heavy hitters
> such as BMW, Mercedes, and Rolls Royce. This is apparently not limited to
> four-wheel transport, as Beijing-based Lingyun Intelligent Technology is
> developing its own gyroscopically balanced two-wheeler.
>
> Though a little healthy competition can be a good thing, you can’t deny the
> striking similarities between startup LIT’s (even the acronym raises
> suspicion) vehicle and Lit Motors’ AEV. The video below shows the single
> seater in question as well as a two seater, which were displayed at the
> recent Beijing Auto Show:
>
> Lingyun reported a “USD 8-digit Series A funding round” from “Beijing-based
> angel investment fund Geek Bang, China Broadband Capital, Sequoia Capital
> China, ZhenFund and Beijing-based private equity fund Hillhouse Capital
> Management.”
>
> As is the usual case with these types of knockoffs, the original should be
> a
> better machine. Lit Motors predicts a 150-mile range on a 10kWh battery
> pack
> with a top speed of 100 mph, while Lingyun’s concept should get 62 miles on
> a 3kWh pack and hit 62 mph.
>
> Lingyun has not announced any pricing, but Lit Motors places a tag of
> $24,000. This is higher than earlier estimates, which were quoted as low as
> $16,000.
> [© digitaltrends.com]
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lit_Motors
> Lit Motors Inc. is a San Francisco-based company that designs two-wheeled
> vehicles, including ... In 2011 the company announced plans for a first
> small production run in 2013 ... "It will take a 'baby elephant' to knock
> over this bike" ...
> http://litmotors.com/
> ...
> [video  dated
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0m-cUxMcJw
> Lit Motors unveils all-electric, fully enclosed motorcycle
> SmartPlanetCBS's channel Sep 12, 2011
> Lit Motors CEO Daniel Kim wants to reinvent the motorcycle as we know it
> today. 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Upgraded 2016 Tesla-S 90D is the first 300mi/483km production Electric car

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Pure speculation here, but I'll take a whack.

These are EPA tests so speeds, durations, acceleration and deceleration
rates are tightly prescribed.  I'm guessing a smaller, lighter car won't
suffer the disadvantage of yanking roughly 5000# up to speed, and that
means it does better in town than on the highway.  Past a certain weight
threshold maybe higher but steady speed makes for more efficiency?

Chris
On May 2, 2016 1:00 PM, "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
wrote:

> On 2 May 2016 at 5:45, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Tesla's updated Model S 90D ... 285.7-mile city range ... 303.2-mile
> > highway range.
>
> Interesting.  Every other EV I know of (including conversions) gets
> markedly
> better range in city driving than on the highway.  Is the Tesla S so
> aerodynamic that its friction losses are higher than its aero losses?  Or
> is
> it just wasting more energy than other EVs when it's "idling"?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>
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[EVDL] OT: Molex products (was: Solder strength....)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> All this being said, yes crimping is better and my preferred method is
> Molex.


​FYI,​

​I was surprised recently to learn that Molex is now​ owned by Koch
Industries.  It has changed my approach to using Molex products.  There are
alternatives.

Chris
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[EVDL] Solder strength (was: Re: J1772. Solder or crimp?)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Solder is mechanically weak, and has a low melting point. It's fine for
> little low-power stuff, when there is negligible shock and vibration. It
> is, after all, how 99.9% of all electronic connections are made on circuit
> boards. :-)
>
> But, it's a poor choice for high power, things that get hot, or where
> there is mechanical stress.


​Excellent advice, ​and something to keep in mind whenever you get tempted
to use solder for mechanical strength.  I've seen it often enough (that is,
seen these applications fail enough) to look into it a bit.  Turns out one
of the worst things you can do to a solder joint is mechanically stress it
while also gently thermal cycling it.  You don't need to get anywhere near
the solder's softening point (normal operating temps can do it) to get it
to fail quickly by doing this.

Disclaimer here, which leads to my question.  The above applies to your
regular garden-variety lead-tin solder.  Does anyone know if it also
applies to lead-free?  Time for an RoHS update on old knowledge.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] $2.85/hr L2 KY utility EVSE> too co$tly to get used

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 6:26 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> % A Leaf EV charging @6kW = 24mph or ~1gal of $1.76 gas %
>
>
> http://wfpl.org/kentucky-grants-lge-ku-permission-install-public-electric-vehicle-charging-stations/
> More Electric Vehicle Charging Stations Are Coming To Louisville
> April 11, 2016  Erica Peterson
>
> Louisville will be getting up to 10 more public electric vehicle charging
> stations.
>
> Today, the Kentucky Public Service Commission approved a plan to let public
> utility Louisville Gas and Electric operate the chargers in its service
> territory. It also sets guidelines for other businesses who want to do so.
>
> There are already 13 public charging stations in Louisville, though five
> are
> at car dealerships. With Monday’s decision, LG can install its own
> chargers around the city. The PSC order also sets up a framework for the
> company to charge non-residential customers who want to install charging
> stations.
>
> If either a commercial or industrial customer wants to install a public
> charging station, *they have two choices.* The charging stations can be
> metered, and the host can pay a monthly fee for the station — and for the
> electricity that’s used — at the company’s current monthly rate. Or, the
> charging station can be unmetered, and the customer can pay a higher set
> monthly fee to cover the cost of the electricity used.


​Emphasis mine.

Either this is an exceptionally poorly written piece, or there is no
provision for a commercial or industrial customer​

​to simply buy and install their own EVSE and charge what they please (or
make it free).​  Is it even possible that KY's utility codes could be so
intrusive into how a business uses the power they pay for?

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 and Leaf EVs among CR's dishonorable mentions

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I know that CR has made some boneheaded moves on the past, but their
reliability ratings are pretty well regarded.  I would not be at all
surprised that an i3 is unreliable, since that's a pretty common thing for
BMWs.  And wasn't it around 2013 that Nissan had their problems with packs
in hot regions?

To me this sounds like teething problems in a fairly new technology.  I see
no reason to suggest "koolaid" of any kind is involved.

Chris
On Mar 21, 2016 6:16 AM, "brucedp5 via EV"  wrote:

>
>
> % ?CR drinking the Koch Koolaid? %
>
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102878_consumer-reports-avoid-buying-used-2014-bmw-i3-electric-cars
> Consumer Reports: avoid buying used 2014 BMW i3 electric cars
> Mar 16, 2016  Stephen Edelstein  ht2 Chris Neff
>
> [images
> http://images.hgmsites.net/med/2014-bmw-i3_100435121_m.jpg
> 2014 BMW i3
>
> http://images.hgmsites.net/med/2014-bmw-i3_100435129_m.jpg
>
> http://images.hgmsites.net/med/2014-bmw-i3_100443671_m.jpg
> 2014 BMW i3 (German-market version), Amsterdam, Oct 2013
> ]
>
> The BMW i3 electric car has been on sale in the U.S. since May 2014,
> meaning
> some of the earliest examples are now likely turning up on used-car lots.
>
> So does BMW's radical electric city car make a good used-car purchase?
>
> If you are planning on going that route, it might be best to avoid the
> earliest cars available, suggests Consumer Reports.
>
> The magazine recently released its list of "Used Cars to Avoid Buying," and
> the 2014 BMW i3 was among the dishonorable mentions.
>
> The list includes 2006 through 2015 models that have a record of
> below-average reliability.
>
> The ratings apply to specific model years of a given vehicle, because even
> a
> general pattern of good reliability can be interrupted by lapses during
> specific model years.
>
> BMW's electric car was at least in good company; it was one of no fewer
> than
> seven BMW models deemed to be poor used-car choices.
>
> And it wasn't the worst of the bunch.
>
> While Consumer Reports says the i3 has below average reliability, the
> carmaker's 5 Series sedan was determined to be "much worse than average"
> across model years 2006-2008, 2010-2012, and 2015.
>
> The i3 wasn't the only electric car on the list either.
>
> The 2012, 2013, and 2015 versions of the Tesla Model S all have
> "much-worse-than-average" reliability, according to the magazine.
>
> Despite heaping praise on the Model S when it was new, Consumer Reports
> last
> year pulled its coveted "recommended" rating for the car, owing to that
> increasing evidence of that below-average reliability.
>
> Another used electric car to avoid is the 2013 Nissan Leaf, staffers say.
>
> This is an example of how a car with generally good reliability can still
> have a bad model year or two.
>
>
> Last year, Consumer Reports said the Leaf was a good used-car buy, owing to
> low prices and good predicted reliability.
>
> At that time, the 2013 Leaf had an "average" reliability rating, which has
> since dropped to "below average."
>
>
> Other model years fared better, with the 2014 Leaf rated as "better than
> average" and the 2015 model rated as "average."
>
> It just goes to show that—as with any other type of car—buying a used
> electric car requires some careful research.
> [© greencarreports.com]
> ...
> http://gas2.org/2016/03/17/used-electric-cars-consumer-reports/
> Used Electric Cars Get A Thumbs Down From Consumer Reports
> March 17th, 2016 ... Consumer  Reports ... the biggest killjoy ... taking
> the luster off many cars ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-i3-and-Leaf-EVs-among-CR-s-dishonorable-mentions-tp4681118.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] battery box

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> I'm looking for a source for a weather tight, probably fiberglass, box.
> About 4'x6' and 2' high with a lift-up top.  Can anyone suggest?  Some
> custom fiberglass shop?


​The chances that you'd find something really suitable to your application
are small.  What you're attempting to do is pretty simple, so just about
any fiberglass shop could do it.
​  Expect it to be expensive.

That's because it's time consuming.  It's not hard.  In fact, it's a simple
enough project for someone who's never worked with fiberglass before.  If
you understand how papier mache works you pretty much understand
fiberglass.  Just transfer that concept to different materials.  You can
make a mold out of plywood, styrofoam, whatever.  (Give the sides some
draft.)  Same for the lid.  Since finding exactly what you need ready-made
is unlikely, devote some time to designing it as you want it.

Best of luck,
Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Proposed Tesla e-motorcycle concept by designer Serrano

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Give me a flippin' break.  *FAR* too "out there" to have a prayer of
reasonable sales figures.  Hub center steering has been tried in the
marketplace and got few nibbles.  Motorcyclists are a conservative lot,
even those who like the techy end of the spectrum.

I maintain that if Tesla wants to build a motorcycle, they could merely
re-start production of the 'Mission R:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/06/04/mission-motorcycles-mission-r-and-rs-electric-superbikes-first-look-review-photos/

The company folded for reasons not connected with the goodness of the
bike.  It is a gentlemens' express, so very much in keeping with the Tesla
demographic.  It's a bike that deserves to be back on the market, and Tesla
could do it.

Chris

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:09 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> http://paultan.org/2016/02/25/proposed-tesla-e-bike-design-concept-by-serrano/
> Proposed Tesla e-Bike design concept by Serrano
> 25 February 2016  Mohan K Ramanujam
>
> [image
> http://s2.paultan.org/image/2016/02/Tesla-e-Bike-concept-motorcycle-2.jpg
> concept e-motorcycle
> ]
>
> Italian designer Antonio Serrano has put up a set of renderings, playing a
> “what-if?” game of Tesla manufacturing an electric motorcycle. This design
> concept would be made out of carbon fiber, aluminium, and high-strength
> plastic for lightness and strength.
>
> Dubbed the “Tesla e-Bike” by Serrano, the concept calls for hub-center
> steering, an engineering design last seen in public on the Bimota Tesi and
> Yamaha GTS 1000 over 20 years ago. An OLED dashboard display shows all
> essential information required in a high-tech, minimalistic fashion.
>
> “Tesla e-Bike is a conceptual project based on a vision what if Tesla
> Motors
> manufactured an electric motorcycle. Just like Tesla principles, this
> e-bike
> is high-tech, fast, efficient, and ecological,” says Serrano. No word on
> whether Elon Musk might be interested in this other-worldy design, but it
> certainly looks sleek and efficient.
> [© 2016 Driven Communication]
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Proposed-Tesla-e-motorcycle-concept-by-designer-Serrano-tp4680743.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
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Re: [EVDL] Ensure your spent li-ion batteries are properly recycled/disposed-of

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 7:07 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 14 Feb 2016 at 0:12, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> One fix would be a law requiring a substantial core deposit on each
> battery,
> but that would boost the purchase prices of EVs.  Not a winner.
>

​Seems easy enough to  me​

​to eliminate the core charge for the OEM manufacturer​ and apply it only
to replacement packs or cells.  Bring in the old, no core charge for the
new.  I suspect that's what's done for lead acid now.  This approach would
also encourage and centralize the market for getting used packs into the
power storage market.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Looking for help learning to build EV motor

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Brad,

I am someone who is most certainly NOT an expert in your field, but I try
to approach any problem by finding its borders first.  I do know that
switched reluctance (SR) motors are very enticing due to their simplicity
and therefore low cost, but they are mind-numbingly difficult to control
well.  And an EV is s very broad-spectrum application, so good control
under a wide variety of conditions is a necessity.

Several years ago I read an article on a new suite of SR motors that
boasted a new level of control, but they don't seem to have taken the
market by storm yet.

Seems to me you'll need a mountain of expertise in SR motor theory before
you start.  Because that's what others have had at their disposal and
haven't created an EV-suitable SR motor yet.  TI and probably others have
chips that are specifically designed for SR motors and they've devoted a
lot of development time to the application.

This is well-traveled ground.  I know this appears to be throwing cold
water on your plans, but in fact I'm hoping you have some new ideas that
might bring SR motors to EVs.  Do you?  Can you share?

Chris

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:51 AM, bRad Gibson via EV 
wrote:

> Hey, everyone,
>
> I am located in the Seattle, WA area (Woodinville, actually), and am
> interested in learning to build and control my own switched reluctance
> electric motor.  The long-term goal of the project will be to build an EV
> from scratch (not a conversion), but since I do not have a hardware
> background yet, I'm looking for someone willing to at least help me take
> all my "unknown unknowns" to "known unknowns" ;).  From there, if need be,
> I can tackle transforming those known unknowns into knowns on my own.
>
> Initially, I'd like to build a tabletop motor so that I can practice
> software control specifically of starting the motor, controlling regen
> during deceleration and acoustics, and controlling speed.
>
> If you know anyone able and willing to help, I would appreciate an
> introduction.
>
> --OR--
>
> I've noticed Elon Musk has established a bit of a pattern of finding
> innovators whose ideas didn't fit the established system--Eberhard,
> Tarpenning, AC Propuslion for Tesla, Mueller for SpaceX.
>
> If you know of someone building versatile, high-performance motors in
> his/her garage who might be willing to discuss a possible EV venture with
> someone with an entrepreneurial and software background (me), I would also
> appreciate an introduction.
>
> You can find more about my background here:
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/gibsonbrad
>
> --
>
> If you have someone in mind, or if you have thoughts or questions, please
> feel free to reach me directly at b...@humanenginuity.com.
>
> Thank you!
>
> All the best,
> -Brad Gibson
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Venturi, OSU VBB-3 Electric Racer targets 372mph record 0-60mph:2s

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Years ago when I was paying attention to this stuff, road racers on slicks
could pull 1.2g and higher without any special 'TrackBite'-like coatings on
the track.  I remember 2g in some situations, but I don't remember if
banking was involved.

The theory behind coefficient of friction is based on a laboratory test of
one material against another.  Both materials are smooth.  There is no
rolling involved, just flat surfaces either static or sliding against each
other.  Theoretically you can't get better than 1g, which is borne out is
tests under these conditions.  Sticky tires are also soft and gummy,
meaning they interlock with the pebbly surface of asphalt.  I believe there
is also an improvement from (slight) slippage due to overspeed on
acceleration.

This disconnect is a case of the model (the laboratory test) not matching
the actual situation (rolling slicks on asphalt).  The fact that street
tires get a coefficient of 1 is probably a coincidence.  They can't have
the grip of slicks because that would require too many compromises.  Like
not being as gummy, so not as much interlock.

Chris

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

>
> 2) It removes a thin layer of aged hard rubber, and reveals fresh soft
>> sticky rubber.
>>
>> If it removes a layer of rubber wouldn't that also remove the TrackBite?Â
>>
>
> They spray the track with TrackBite, not the tire. You do a
> burnout principally to remove this aged layer of rubber, particularly on
> the first run of the day. On subsequent runs, you can do a smaller burnout
> to just heat the tire surface.
>
> For a national event, they spray the entire 1/4 mile length of the
> track. For a  local bracket race, they just spray the launch area. Maybe
> 100 ft. Whole different procedure.
>
> Track surface preparation is an art. They first clean the track
> surface with a rotary sweeper. Then they spray the track with a layer of
> TrackBite. Then they apply a thin coating of rubber dust. Next, they
> burnish the surface with a set of counter-rotating drag racing slicks.
> Finally, they apply a very light final spray of TrackBite.
>
> When the track is prepared optimally, the traction (adhesion) is
> so great that you will actually spall off little pieces of the underlying
> concrete. Basically, the you exceed the shear strength of the pavement
> material itself.
>
> Bill D. -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Human Taking Over From Computer Crashes Autonomous Leaf

[Chris Tromley via EV]

We'll never know all the necessary details of what happened from a report
like this, but it does tend to reinforce my concerns about any highly
complex control system working in a highly variable environment.  It's all
about the transitions.  Simple, well defined situations are simple to
manage.  Reality is quite a different animal.  What might have happened
here is that the system didn't properly manage the transition from
autonomous to human control.

I get that traffic safety is a numbers game.  Autonomous vehicles might in
fact save lives overall.  But I am not a statistic, I am an individual -
and I will resist using a technology that improves the population numbers
by putting me at greater risk.

An example of that is the three-point safety harness that's been around for
decades.  It's designed that way to be easy and quick to fasten,
encouraging more people to use it and improve the population numbers.  But
it provides nearly zero upper body protection from an impact at the
passenger side corner.  (If you don't believe that, latch the inertia reel
and lean toward the passenger side front fender - you'll slip right out.)
 I'd gladly use a four-point harness that might take an extra 2 - 3 seconds
to latch, but that would (presumably) harm the population results.

I'm not a complete luddite.  I'm fine with ABS and fuel injection.  Now.
When they were new and sketchy not so much.  Maybe autonomous vehicles will
get to that level of reliability.  I won't be an early adopter.

Chris

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 3:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> 'How long will it be until human-driven cars are made illegal?'
>
>
> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2016/01/21/human-driver-taking-over-from-computer-crashes-autonomous-car/
> Human Driver, Taking Over From Computer, Crashes Autonomous Car
> Jan 21, 2016 ... accident occurred at 1:48 p.m. near 7th Street and Bryant
> Street in San Francisco [CA] ...
>
> http://dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/bc21ef62-6e7c-4049-a552-0a7c50d92e86/Cruise_Automation_01.08.16.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
> (DMV accident report)
>
>
>
>
> http://consumerist.com/2016/01/22/self-driving-car-gets-involved-in-crash-after-driver-takes-control/
> Self-Driving Car Involved In Crash… After Driver Takes Control
> January 22, 2016  Ashlee Kieler
>
> Given Google’s recent confession that its self-driving cars would have been
> involved in 13 crashes if a human hadn’t intervened, you’d assume that
> having a real driver in an autonomous car could only help. Then you
> remember
> that millions of humans crash their vehicles every day, regardless of how
> intelligent that car is.
> Mashable reports that a self-driving Nissan LEAF owned and operated by
> Cruise Automation — a company that sells after-market autonomous driving
> kits — crashed into another vehicle while rolling down the streets of San
> Francisco.
> But unlike Google’s self-driving car that would have crashed without human
> intervention, it appears the Nissan vehicle crashed because of a human.
>
> According to the accident report [PDF
>
> https://consumermediallc.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/cruise_automation_01-08-16.pdf
> ], the Jan. 8 incident occurred when the self-driving LEAF began deviating
> from course, swaying left and right within its lane. The driver then took
> control of the vehicle, but failed to “change the path of the vehicle and
> it
> collided with an unoccupied Toyota Prius.”
> No one was hurt in the incident, and Mashable reports that both cars
> suffered minor damage.
> [© consumerist.com]
> ...
>
> http://www.allmediany.com/news/60147-driver-at-fault-for-autonomous-nissan-leaf-crash
> Driver At Fault for Autonomous Nissan LEAF Crash
> 23 Jan 2016
>
> [video
> https://youtu.be/fub5VsuYVaA
> ]
>
> According to a DMV report in California, a self-driving Nissan LEAF
> electric
> vehicle has crashed.
> Fortunately for the autonomous driving system, the accident occurred while
> a
> person was operating the LEAF directly.
> However, the driver reclaimed control of the vehicle after it began to
> drift
> within the lane from left to right.
> The crash report indicated at the point, the driver did not alter the path
> of the LEAF allowing for a collision with an unoccupied vehicle.
> The collision took place on Jan. 8 in San Francisco; the Prius which the
> Nissan struck was parked at the time.
>
>
>
> http://mashable.com/2016/01/22/cruise-automation-crash/#LiRfubSb8EqC
> Human error caused a self-driving Nissan LEAF to crash in San Francisco
> [20160122]  NICK JAYNES
>
> [image  flash
> ticket
> ]
>
> Humans just keep proving how bad they are at driving.
>
> A Nissan LEAF electric vehicle fitted with an autonomous driving system
> owned and operated by Cruise Automation, the company that produces a
> $10,000
> aftermarket self-driving system, crashed into a parked Prius on Jan. 8 in
> San Francisco after the human driver took driving control away from the
> vehicle.
>
> The accident occurred when the self-driving 

Re: [EVDL] HOW GM BEATS TESLA TO THE Every Man's Electric Car

[Chris Tromley via EV]

It's important to remember that corporations aren't people.  They're more
like sharks looking for food.  You can't train a shark, but you can have
some control over it if you control its food supply.

If it goes somewhere that is beneficial, like manufacturing EVs, make sure
there's a good supply of food for it there.  If there isn't it'll go
elsewhere.

I really like Hondas, but I despise their approach to EVs.  They did the
same evil things to the EV+ that GM did to the EV1, but got no bad press
for it.  The EV1 was the poster child for EVs back then.

So I refuse to buy a Honda until they change their ways, and I let them
know about it.  In my own small way I'm trying to control their food
supply.  Same with Toyota.

If the Bolt is a genuine entry into the EV market and not a compliance car,
I don't care what GM did in the past.  A shark has no memory.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Rockville, MD?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Seth Rothenberg via EV 
wrote:

> Does anyone have experience with driving
> between Washington and NYC (I-95 North)
> and looking for DC Quick Chargers?
> (I have Charge Point and Plugshare :-)
>
> So far, I have Google Mapped 3 Nissan Dealers...
> but one leg right now may be too far.


​I can offer a tidbit or two.  I've left 95 at Rte 24 N of Baltimore to
avoid heavy traffic​

​by taking Rte 1.  It's actually quite nice​ and speedy, though probably
not so much as you go into Baltimore and towards DC.

Also, when driving my i-MiEV from its previous home in Somerset NJ to
Philly I found the charging at NJCAR (see Plugshare) to be quite nice.
Right off 95 at the PA/NJ border, free level 2 and 3, 24/7.  It's a small
office building, not a dealership.  Nothing else around to occupy you while
you charge though.

Haven't tried charging at a dealer yet, but Plugshare has lots of notes
about dealer chargers not working, blocked by other cars, etc.  Plan for
extra time.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Economists are from Mars, Electric Vehicles are from Venus

[Chris Tromley via EV]

This all kind of presumes the subsidies this guy is talking about will
remain forever.  They won't.  In fact they will probably end soon,
confirming that EVs have finally gotten a toe-hold in the marketplace and
rendering his argument mostly irrelevant.

Chris

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> 'The two sides will have to recognize where the other is coming from'
>
>
> http://www.theenergycollective.com/jamesbushnell/2301833/economists-are-mars-electric-cars-are-venus
> Economists are from Mars, Electric Cars are from Venus
> December 16, 2015  James Bushnell
>
> [images
>
> https://energyathaas.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/screenshot-2015-12-13-16-03-50.png
> Optimal EV Subsidies by County
>
>
> https://energyathaas.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/screenshot-2015-12-13-17-02-10.png
> A CO2 Abatement Plan for California, circa 2011
> ]
>
> I work at UC Davis, a University with at least two (that I know about)
> centers devoted to research “aimed at developing a sustainable market for
> plug-in vehicles.” I run into a lot of researchers and environmental
> advocates who are completely dedicated to the mission of accelerating the
> deployment of electric vehicles. They view electrifying a large share of
> the
> transportation fleet as one key piece of the climate policy puzzle.
>
> I am also an economist.   The research coming out of the economics
> community
> has pretty consistently demonstrated that electric vehicles currently have
> marginal (at best) environmental benefits. I run into a lot of economists
> who are perplexed at the hostility these findings have generated from
> pockets of the environmental community.
>
> I have followed and pondered these clashes for some time now, in part for
> the entertainment value, but also because of what this conflict reveals
> about how the different disciplines think about climate policy.
>
> As the Paris climate summit concludes, the spotlight has been on goals such
> as limiting warming to 2 or even 1.5 degrees Celsius, and how the agreed-to
> actions fall short of the necessary steps to achieve them.  There has been
> much less focus on where targets like 2 degrees Celsius come from, and what
> the costs of achieving them would be.   A lot of the policies being
> discussed for meeting goals like an 80% reduction in carbon emissions carry
> price tags well in excess of the EPA’s official “social cost of carbon,”
> one
> measure of the environmental damages caused by CO2 emissions.   It is quite
> likely that these different perspectives, about how to frame the climate
> change problem, will define the sides of the next generation of climate
> policy debate (if and when we get past the current opposition based upon a
> rejection of climate science).
>
> Optimal EV Subsidies by County (from Mansur, et al.)
>
> To be clear, the research on EVs is not (for most places) claiming that
> electric cars yield no environmental benefit. The point of papers like
> Mansur, et. al, and Archsmith, Kendall, and Rapson  is that these benefits
> are for the moment dwarfed by the size of public and private funds directed
> at EVs. Some have criticized aspects of the study methodologies (for
> example
> a lack of full life cycle analysis), but later work has largely addressed
> those complaints and not changed the conclusion that the benefits of EVs
> are
> substantially below the level of public subsidy they currently enjoy. Not
> only that, but Severin Borenstein and Lucas Davis point out that EV tax
> credits are about the most regressive of green energy subsidies currently
> available.
>
> Another common, and more thought provoking, reaction I’ve seen is the view
> that the current environmental benefits of EVs are almost irrelevant. The
> grid will have to be substantially less carbon intensive in the future, and
> therefore it will be. The question is, what if it’s not? It seems likely
> that California will have a very low carbon power sector in 15 years, but
> I’m not so sure about the trajectory elsewhere. This argument also raises
> the question of sequencing. Why are we putting so much public money into
> EVs
> before the grid is cleaned up and not after?
>
> This kind of argument comes up a lot when discussing some of the more
> controversial (i.e., expensive) policies directed at CO2 emissions
> mitigation.   Economists will write papers pointing to programs with an
> implied cost per ton of CO2 reductions in the range of hundreds of dollars
> per ton. One reaction to such findings is to point out that we need to do
> this expensive stuff and the cheap stuff or else we just aren’t going to
> have enough emissions reductions.   Since we need to do all of it, it’s no
> great tragedy to do the expensive stuff now.
>
> It seems to me that this view represents what was once captured in the
> “wedges” concept and is now articulated as a carbon budget. Environmental
> economists call it a quantity mechanism or target. The 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Energica Electric Superbikes> The Tesla Of eMotorcycles since 2014

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Hmmm.  I don't think this kind of comparison plays as well in the sport
bike world as it does with hypercars.  There are several literbikes
available in the $16k - $20k range that will turn 3 sec 0 - 60 times, 1/4
miles in the 9s (yes, 9s!) and top speeds approaching 180 mph.  Energica
isn't there yet.

I also think it's a mistake to make high end EMs only as sport bikes.  Many
of the people who can afford the cost of entry can't tolerate the racer
crouch riding position any more.  Make EMs as sport bikes, but also build a
"gentleman's express" version with more humane ergos.  Small additional
investment, big payback in sales.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
> at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
> every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
> enough such public chargers.
>
> No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
> provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
> on-street parking having outlets.
>

​I'm getting more used to the idea of L1 charging being pretty useful, but
I have one remaining objection to it - L1 chargers.  Currently, using L1
charging means carrying your OEM EVSE with you and plugging it in.  You
can't always expect to have an outlet right at your parking spot, so you
also need an extension cord.  That's a significant inconvenience.  I
wouldn't mind it so much, but that could be enough for John Q. Public to
say, "What a pain.  I'm getting a gas car."

Not only that, but you're plugging in your OEM EVSE​

​and leaving it where anyone can walk away with it.  At ~$300​ a pop,
that's a significant risk.  I will likely end up with L1 charging where I
work, but with my i-MiEV's rear-fender charging port I can run an extension
cord to the outlet, leave my EVSE in the trunk, plug the charging head into
the port and lock my trunk using a latch extender (that I'll have to make)
to leave a gap for the cords.  I don't know if I'd charge in a public place
if I couldn't do that.

The longer-term solution is probably permanently-installed L1 charger cords
with the charging head attached.  Fixes both the convenience and theft
problems, but costs $200 instead of $5.
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Ken Olum via EV  wrote:

> At the end of June I bought the JuiceBox 40 Pro EVSE from Emotorwerks.
> I paid $600, and I think that's enough that I'm entitled to a little
> customer support.  But I've 4 sent requests to their support address and
> never received a satisfactory answer.  In some cases I got a reply, but
> the reply was "so-and-so is the expert on this and will get back to you
> and answer your question" and then I never heard from so-and-so.
>

​Thinking more about this, there are other products that have no official
tech support.  They rely ​on an active and enthusiastic online community,
sometimes backed up by a company representative or two.  I personally have
had fair-to-good results from this kind of arrangement (free antivirus
programs, etc.).  I see there is a Juicebox support thread on
DIYElectricCar.

​Has anyone had good or inadequate results with Juicebox support using this
approach?

Chris​
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) lack of customer support

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Thanks for this.  I was getting ready to pull the trigger on a juicebox
myself.  As a perpetual electrical noob I can't afford an EVSE at an
attractive price that has no support.

Chris

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Ken Olum via EV  wrote:

> At the end of June I bought the JuiceBox 40 Pro EVSE from Emotorwerks.
> I paid $600, and I think that's enough that I'm entitled to a little
> customer support.  But I've 4 sent requests to their support address and
> never received a satisfactory answer.  In some cases I got a reply, but
> the reply was "so-and-so is the expert on this and will get back to you
> and answer your question" and then I never heard from so-and-so.
>
> Before sending this message, I complained to them about the fact that I
> wasn't getting any support, and that complaint also went unanswered.
>
> So, at this point, I feel I should warn other EV drivers not to buy from
> Emotorwerks if you want to be able to ask any questions or get any help
> with your equipment.  I'm sorry to do it.  I thought this was a
> promising company with an interesting piece of equipment at an
> attractive price.
>
> They are very proud of the fact that it's open source.  Anyone know
> where to find the source?  I guess I should read it if I ever want to
> get an answer to my main question, which is "How does the unit manage
> the charging current limit in cases where the connection to
> Emotorwerks's servers is not completely reliable?"
>
> Ken Olum
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Re: [EVDL] Employer EVSE installations vs. near-future trends

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Many thanks to all who responded.  Special mentions go to Bruce, for
research above and beyond, Robert B. for compelling points favoring L1 and
Arnold for the government resources link.  I have some work ahead to get
through all the input, but I should be much better equipped to guide the
decision-making process.

Chris
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[EVDL] Employer EVSE installations vs. near-future trends

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I've been involved with EVs for almost two decades, but I just used an EVSE
for the first time a couple of weeks ago on my new-to-me i-MiEV.  So please
forgive me if I'm a bit slow on this topic.

See, living on the east coast (Philadelphia suburbs) means living in an
EVSE desert.  Up until recently the only EVs I'd seen were hobbyist cars
that plugged into range and dryer outlets.  Then came the Teslas, which
seem to be more common around here than ICE Mercedes.  But they have 260+
mile range, so I literally have never seen one charging.  Never seen a
Supercharger station.  They charge at home.  I've seen a few Leafs
(Leaves?) and i3s, but only on the road, and certainly no more than five of
each.  My i-MiEV is not only the only one anyone has ever seen around here,
no one has even heard of it.  "An eye-what?!?  Do they sell those in this
country?"

So I find myself rather embarrassingly ill-equipped to advise my employer
about installing EVSE stations.  I can get to work and back OK if I drive
conscientiously, but not during winter.  An EVSE at work would be very
handy.  There are some receptive ears at work and there is a substantial
parking lot expansion coming up, so I convinced them to at least plan for
getting some power out there.  And I, being the closest thing they have to
an expert on EVSE, would get back to them with my recommendations.

So here's my main concern - in this area EVs needing a charge are *really*
rare.  That will certainly change, but I wonder if that change will be
driven largely by acceptance of the soon-to-be-available 200 mile range EVs
we keep hearing about - which will have much less need for at-work EVSE.
Is there going to be a shift toward residential EVSE?

My gut tells me my employer (with a head count of around 300) should lay
power for three EVSE spots and install one, situated so two to four parking
spaces can use it. Add others as/when needed.  These would likely be at the
back of the lot, near an outbuilding that already has power.  Thoughts?

Other finer points - recommendations for commercial-use EVSE?  Pros and
cons of different layouts (serving side-by-side spaces or one in the middle
of two spaces on each side of a parking row)?  Charging rate - what's
really needed?  Indicators on the EVSE to show if charging?  (My i-MiEV
dashboard indicator is very hard to see from outside the car.)  Do any of
these have a network connection to email the EV-driver employees?  What are
the little details of living with EVSE that can be optimized with a little
forethought?

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: JUST IN - IT'S OFFICIAL - Mitsubishi EXTENDING Battery Warranty

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 4:37 PM, via EV  wrote:

> Is that warranty transferable to a second owner?


​I just bought a used 2012 i-Miev with a grand total​

​of 3400 miles.  The warranty book says, "
This warranty is provided to the original and subsequent
​ ​
owner(s) of the Vehicle​
​"  However, it also says that "
Gradual capacity loss of the Main Drive Lithium-ion Battery
based on time and usage is NOT covered under this warranty.
​"  In other words, if a cell fails ​
​hard you get a warranty replacement.  Not sure if that means a new cell
installed or a new pack.  But if everything stays reasonably balanced and
only delivers 60% of its original range, you're out of luck.  I've been
lurking at myimiev.com and haven't read any reports of that happening yet.

There is a free android phone app
(caniOn) specifically for the i-Miev that reads a Bluetooth OBDII dongle
and shows *lots* of useful info in real time.  My main condition for buying
the car was to check the health of the pack.  I had the driver floor the
pedal and watched all the cells simultaneously, and they didn't vary even
.01 V.  Not a conclusive test, but encouraging.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Sleek independent Tesla-M electric motorcycle rendering

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:36 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:




 http://www.worldcarfans.com/115071596597/tesla-model-m-rendering-shows-great-potential-for-an
 Tesla Model M rendering shows great potential for an electric bike
 [20150715]  By Septerra

 [images
 http://content.worldcarfans.co/2015/7/15/big/4969607821721390680.jpg
 Tesla M concept


 http://www.worldcarfans.com/115071596597/tesla-model-m-rendering-shows-great-potential-for-an/lowphotos#3
 ]


​I hope Musk is smarter than that.​

​I think this concept is ugly.  I know beauty is in the eye of the
beholder, but this would be off-putting to too many people.  There's a
reason the S, X and
​
​III are as sleek and universally pleasing as they are.​

If Tesla was interested in an electric motorcycle, they'd be much better
off buying the recently-folded Mission Motorcycles:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photo-gallery/mission-r-electric-superbike/

This is a fully-sorted and far more real-world-friendly starting point.
Just as they did with cars, by starting with a Lotus platform, they could
dip a toe into the EM world by badge-engineering the Mission R.  It's a
product Tesla could be proud of as-is.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting seizing escooters ebicycles

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:00 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:




 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/exclusive-police-crackdown-illegal-scooters-article-1.2279900
 EXCLUSIVE: Police begin crackdown on illegal scooters and electric bikes
 BY Molly Crane-newman , Thomas Tracy  July 3, 2015



 “Technically they can’t be registered and they can’t be considered bicycles
 because they are not solely powered by human power,” said a high-ranking
 NYPD source. “It’s a problem that we get a lot of complaints about. We try
 to confiscate them as soon as we see them.”


Unbelievably stupid.
​If NY would stop creating problems where none exist, they would realize
these e-bikes​

​don't need to be registered.  Because they're *bicycles*.​

From Wikipedia, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

In conformance with legislation adopted by the U.S. Congress defining this
category of electric-power bicycle (15 U.S.C. 2085(b)), CPSC rules
stipulate that *low speed electric bicycles*[50]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#cite_note-50 (to
include two- and three-wheel vehicles) are exempt from classification as *motor
vehicles* providing they have fully operable pedals, an electric motor of
less than 750W (1 hp), and a top motor-powered speed of less than 20 miles
per hour (32 km/h) when operated by a rider weighing 170 pounds.[51]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#cite_note-51 An
electric bike remaining within these specifications is subject to the CPSC
consumer product regulations for a bicycle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle. Commercially manufactured e-bikes
exceeding these power and speed limits are regulated by the federal DOT and
NHTSA as motor vehicles, and must meet additional safety requirements.

What NYPD is not saying is that non-powered bicyclists do just as many
stupid and dangerous things as those with e-bikes.  Enforce the laws for
behavior, not the conveyance.

Chris
​
​
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting seizing escooters ebicycles

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

  From GreenCarReports:


 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084757_nyc-bans-electric-bikes-again-launches-bike-sharing-system

 The law covers any electric bicycle that has a throttle, possibly
 exempting pedal assist bikes.  If so, that would be much more reasonable.
 From my perspective, an ebike with a throttle is a scooter or moped.


​I believe the intent of the federal law was to treat any vehicle with a
performance and use envelope similar to that of a bicycle as a bicycle.
Hence the 20 mph limit.   Makes perfect sense to me, but it seems laws and
sense ​only go together by random coincidence.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Zombie222 electric 1968 Mustang 0-60mph:2s destroys Tesla-SP85D

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 4:26 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 A Texas-based enthusiast named Mitch Medford has teamed up with well-known
 electric drag racer John Wayland to build an all-electric 1968 Ford Mustang
 that’s capable of beating a top-spec Tesla Model S P85D on a drag strip.


​I continue to be baffled by the drag guys' fascination with comparing a
highly - and specifically - modified
 race car to a stock-and-standard high performance ​OEM car.  Sure, the
racer can go to the store just like the OEM, but that is not what it was
built for.  They completely ignore the value of all the time it took to get
the race car to the point where it could beat the OEM.  The Zombie is
probably a 1/4 million dollar car if you paid everyone for their time.
They also ignore the fact that if Tesla knew they were going to go drag
racing and could prepare for it, they could simply swap controllers and do
a few other minor tweaks and be in the hunt.  What would a Tesla do with
the amps coming from those twin Zillas?  This whole exercise seems rather
childish.

I beat Corvettes and Ferraris on the street all the time in my wife's Honda
Accord.  Of course the results might be different if those guys knew they
were racing.

Chris
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[EVDL] Last call for LeSled

[Chris Tromley via EV]

All,

Well, it's official - I waited too long.

My EV (LeSled - www.evalbum.com/274) got sidelined years ago with a ground
fault.  Lots of home projects (some pretty major) got in the way.  I listed
it as for sale on EV album, put it on the EV Tradin' Post and
DIYElectricCar.  No responses.  So this is my last shot.

The EV Album page goes into detail, but the highlights are:

*Under-hood area properly modified to hold 10 GC batteries (instead of the
original 6) for a total of 20 batteries, 120V pack.  No batteries currently.
*Still seats 4 comfortably, rear seat fully usable.
*Renault Turbo GT torsion bars and sway bars, Koni shocks.
*Under 1400 original miles, no rust, good condition inside and out.
*Genuine Renault heater blower with ceramic heater, blowing through real
ducts!  And a proper defroster!  (Leopard owners know what that means. ;^)
*Zilla Z1k
*Manzanita Micro PFC 20B
*Original Leopard motor, refreshed with new bearings
*Extremely compact, water-cooled 50A DC/DC made from Vicor bricks

... And all the other various bits that make up a good hobby EV.  The
ground fault happened because my temporary wiring boxes (made from wood)
need to be re-done.  $2000 takes it all, about the combined used prices of
the controller and charger alone.  The car is just outside Philadelphia.

If there's no interest, next weekend I start pulling all the EV stuff out
of it.  Someone has expressed an interest in the hulk for something more
than scrap value, but if that doesn't pan out it goes to the crusher.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

You would need 12k BTU if you were cooling the whole cabin, but I'm talking
about cooling individual passengers.  With conduction, not convection.
Whole different ballgame.  The concept must have some merit, or seat
heaters wouldn't be commonplace.  Besides astronauts and pilots, cooled
seats and/or vests are also used for race car drivers.

Chris

On Jun 11, 2015 10:03 AM, Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com wrote:

 You would need a lot of ice, hundreds of pounds, to provide the
refrigeration needed.
 12,000 BTU/hr is the rating of a typical car air conditioning unit. This
is literally equivalent to one ton (2000 lbs) of ice per day.

 Hacking some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely the
best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors that
would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air
conditioning compressors.

 I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output,
variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter from
scratch. Like a TECO:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd
 Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.

 Bill D.




 On 6/11/2015 6:35 AM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:

 If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with a
 cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the cold and a circulation
 pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a seat cover.
 I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost all
 the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  Could
be
 inconvenient, but if the car is for commuting, just throw ice packs in
the
 fridge at work.

 Chris
 On Jun 10, 2015 5:44 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning
in
 an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
 different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.

 Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
 direction?

 This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
 conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and
aftermarket
 air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the
ICE
 engine.

 Thanks,

 b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: RT more interested in their eats than the Tesla-S70D

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Actually this story has nothing to do with eats and everything to do with
filler for the magazine.  I'm betting a deadline was looming and other
stories weren't ready in time.  Why else do a page on the most boring of
driving experiences, driving across the midwest?  Trying to spice it up by
subjecting a mildly controversial car to the use to which it is least
well-suited and using overly-florid prose didn't hide the real purpose of
the story.  It's filler.

Chris

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 4:36 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:




 http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/travel/features/a25736/a-supercharged-midwestern-jaunt-in-a-tesla-model-s-70d/?click=welcome-ad
 A Supercharged Midwestern jaunt in a Tesla Model S 70D
 By Alex Kierstein  May 19, 2015

 [image  / Alex Kierstein
 http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/20/980x490/landscape-1431625375-img-0724.jpg

 http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/20/980x653/gallery-1431625494-img-0721.jpg

 http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/20/980x653/gallery-1431625595-img-0727.jpg

 http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/20/980x653/gallery-1431625744-img-0741.jpg
 ]

 Tesla's entry level Model S gets slightly more interesting, just like an
 Applebee's parking lot with a Supercharger station in it.

 I'm crossing back over the median from a bathroom break at a desolate
 Chipoltle's in the shadow of an enormous Meijer grocery store, making a
 beeline for the 2016 Tesla Model S 70D plugged into the Supercharger
 station. Inside it, the prize: The take-out Chick-fil-A sandwich I'd
 snagged
 earlier, presently off-gassing a delicious chicken grease fog into its
 interior. I'm focusing intently on the future and its palatable delights as
 I'm walking, while abstractly pondering the scene before me: A sexy,
 futuristic EV capable of more than 250+ miles on a charge, sucking down a
 vast quantity of electricity behind an Applebee's, next to a dumpster, in
 Lima, Ohio.

 The spiderweb catches me totally unaware as I pass between two
 Superchargers. Sheer, abject terror. I sputter and juke, pawing at my face,
 stumbling towards the future as determined by Elon Musk. Focus too much on
 the metaphorical novelty of the thing, in this nowhere place, and you miss
 the enterprising spiders' masterpiece entirely.

 It's time to leave. I've taken on 94 miles of charge, 440 calories worth of
 fried chicken sandwich, and a surfeit of spider silk. The door handles
 extend as I lurch closer to the door, still tensed, waiting to feel eight
 legs skittering on my neck. Inside, hopefully without an arachnid
 hitchhiker, there's no cliched starter button to push, just select Drive
 and go. The ultimate in convenience in Ohio's monument to convenience
 itself: The interstate rest stop.

 The 70D is the new entry-level Model S, replacing the 60S and slotting in
 below the 85D and Tesla's more manic P85D. This particular one is an odd
 beigeish gold, treated with black and buttermilk leather and a stripe-y
 wood
 inside, but otherwise it's not significantly different than any other Model
 S. Despite the dual motors, Tesla is quick to point out this is not a
 performance variant. Sure, but it's not slow. Blowing past the occasional
 lane-challenged Malibu Classic driver or a trailer full of hogs is a tickle
 of the go-pedal away.

 Perhaps a change of tire would bring out a little more P in the 70D, as
 the Michelins squirm and complain under anything resembling a spirited
 corner. Here on the Ohio-Indiana frontier, that means off-ramps are
 squirrelly affairs at enthusiastic velocities. The interstate—dead straight
 to the horizon—is no problem. Cruising is effortless, passing is a laugh,
 although speeds above 70 mph eat up enough juice to make a dent in the
 range. Slow and steady, with spurts of electroceleration, is the ticket.

 Later: I'm parked at another Supercharger behind a La Quinta Inn in south
 Indianapolis, trying to be discreet. Meanwhile, the inescapable presence of
 the bizarre beige car plugged into the even more bizarre, bright red,
 toroidal object heightens my paranoia. What's the man with the unusual
 sedan
 doing loitering behind a low-rent hotel in Beech Grove? Perhaps I'm
 broadcasting my agenda too loudly without saying anything, a street
 preacher
 of sorts, barking the Silicon Valley gospel at a hostile heartland. A man
 approaches.

 Oh no.

 Despite the RealTree outerwear, he's all smiles. That electric? How long's
 it take to charge? I wait for the other hunting boot to drop, but I
 indulge
 his questions. Curiosity satisfied, he thanks me and saunters off.

 A closer look reveals less glaring hostility among the natives whizzing in
 and out of the surprisingly busy La Quinta and surrounding chain stores,
 and
 considerably more rush-hour-induced tunnel vision. No one gives a whit that
 I'm assaulting their Heartland values with this Bay Area
 alternative-lifestyle-mobile. So much for my delusional freak flag—I'm the
 only one who sees that Bear Republic standard snapping in the 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few

[Chris Tromley via EV]

The problem with compliance cars is they are made by companies that don't
want to make them.  If I'm going to buy a car, I'll only buy from a company
whose heart is in it - not from a company that feels their arm is being
twisted, and making them only to gain access to a market.  Their priorities
are all wrong, and not in my best interest.

Chris
On May 6, 2015 1:09 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Presumably more choices will mean more cars. One size never fits all.

 My guess is that most ZEV owners (and many ICE owners) have a 2nd vehicle
 that is not a ZEV unless their lifestyle, tastes and habits match their ZEV
 perfectly.

 Compliance cars are frequently no less perfect for someone's needs than a
 real car (as you refer to it). But frankly, *all* ZEVs are compliance
 cars when it comes down to it. No ZEV mandate = No ZEVs. It took a lot of
 work by many of us (including my lawsuit) to get any on the road.

 The only advantage of less ZEVs in Washington would be if it meant that,
 due to limited production, more would be available for sale in California,
 where the air quality makes it sorely needed.

 Sent from my iPhone

  On May 6, 2015, at 8:48 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
  That's assuming that more choices == more sales.  I don't know if that's
 true or not for this market.  There are plenty of EVs for sale in Wash. and
 I certainly want to see their sales increase.  Ideally speaking, I'd rather
 see real cars rather than compliance cars.  Just an emotional response.
 
  Peri
 
  -- Original Message --
  From: Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
  Sent: 06-May-15 7:31:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few
 
  I don't get this.
 
  Why on earth would anyone want any less ZEVs out there, no matter why
 they are there?
 
  We need as many ZEVs out there as we can get, as quickly as possible.
 
 
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
  On May 6, 2015, at 6:40 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
  I was wondering about this.  Glad you found the article, Bruce.
 
  Maybe it's just as well not to have a bunch of compliance cars on the
 market, here.  The real ones will come along as the EV market and
 technology progresses.
 
  Peri
 
  -- Original Message --
  From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
  To: ev@lists.evdl.org
  Sent: 06-May-15 12:15:30 AM
  Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few
 
 
 
 
 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098052_washington-state-loves-electric-cars-but-gets-very-few-heres-why
  Washington State Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few: Here's Why
  By Stephen Edelstein  Apr 29, 2015  ht2 Brian Henderson
 
  [images
 
 http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2014-chevrolet-spark-ev_100433719_m.jpg
  2014 Chevrolet Spark EV
 
  http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2014-fiat-500_100435224_m.jpg
  2014 Fiat 500e EV
 
 
 http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-volkswagen-e-golf-limited-edition_100503450_m.jpg
  2015 Volkswagen e-Golf Limited Edition EV
 
 
 http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-kia-soul-ev_100456106_m.jpg
  2015 Kia Soul EV
  ]
 
  When it comes to states friendly to electric cars, Washington is
 pretty
  close to the top.
 
  It has one of the highest percentages of registered plug-in electric
 cars in
  That's assuming that more choices == more sales.  I don't know if
 that's
  true or not for this market.  There are plenty of EVs for sale in Wash.
 and I certainly want to see their sales increase.  Ideally speaking, I'd
 rather see real cars rather than compliance cars.  Just an emotional
 response.
 
  Peri
 
  -- Original Message --
  From: Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
  Sent: 06-May-15 7:31:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few
 
  I don't get this.
 
  Why on earth would anyone want any less ZEVs out there, no matter why
 they are there?
 
  We need as many ZEVs out there as we can get, as quickly as possible.
 
 
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
  On May 6, 2015, at 6:40 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
  I was wondering about this.  Glad you found the article, Bruce.
 
  Maybe it's just as well not to have a bunch of compliance cars on the
 market, here.  The real ones will come along as the EV market and
 technology progresses.
 
  Peri
 
  -- Original Message --
  From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
  To: ev@lists.evdl.org
  Sent: 06-May-15 12:15:30 AM
  Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few
 
 
 
 
 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098052_washington-state-loves-electric-cars-but-gets-very-few-heres-why
  Washington State Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few: Here's Why
  By Stephen Edelstein  Apr 29, 2015  ht2 Brian Henderson
 
  [images
 
 

Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 6:18 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Here's the elephant in the room that I haven't seen addressed: When a
 self-driving car is involved in a fatal accident, who pays? Who goes to
 jail?

 I wouldn't want to be in a self-driving car because when (not if)
 something goes wrong, every personal injury lawyer in the country will be
 filing lawsuits, against anyone and everyone even remotely involved.


​Lee's quite right of course.  Everyone is speculating on what this is now,
what it will evolve into, and generally thinking in broad strokes.  But
it's the details that will bite hard.
​

Simple sense-and-response control would be just begging for a tragic
outcome. And there is no AI system sufficiently advanced to make the right
decision in every case.  There will be wrong responses, some tragic.  Also,
if you cede too much control to the system that means you have little
control when some glitch becomes a seriously FUBAR situation.  Making this
work really well would require a massive software validation effort that
few companies will do properly.  (They frequently have a hard time
implementing CANBUS properly.)

This is all a perfect example of the four wheel drive analogy - four
wheel drive can allow you to do things that are otherwise impossible.  But
if it is implemented or used improperly, it will only get you deeper into
trouble than you might otherwise have been in.  Sadly, there will be
lawyers that specialize in these cases, and they will make lots of money.

​There's a far stronger case to be made for using tech in ways where we
know it works - sensing what is difficult for humans to perceive, and rapid
response.  I would welcome an infra-red HUD that would allow me to see in
the dark or through fog, dust and blizzards.  Or an audible warning that
closure rate to the vehicle ahead is too fast.  Maybe even automatic
braking in that case, but I'd have to try it first.  An audible warning
that you're about to collide with someone in your blind spot would be good,
but a steering correction would NOT be OK.  Like if I'm purposely changing
lanes into someone because that collision is the lesser of two evils.
That's a decision I want to make myself.

​I'm all for enhancements.  But the decisions are mine.  AI is simply not
up to the task yet.​ The real test is not when you can show what amazing
things a self driving car can do - it's when you throw situations at it
trying to make it do the wrong thing and you can't.  No one wants to show
those test yet, but those are the ones that matter.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com wrote:

 On Apr 6, 2015, at 5:08 PM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:



 In order to improve traffic safety, self-driving cars don't have to be
 perfect; they only have to be better than the average human.


​I more or less agree with what you're ​saying - as long as there is still
a choice.  There are lots of jokes about how everybody thinks they're a
highly-skilled driver.  But in any population there will be some who are
phenomenally more competent than average, and others who at their best are
more dangerous behind the wheel than an angry drunk with a gun.  Those on
the competent side will not take kindly to being stripped of the benefits
of their skill and lumped in with the least common denominators.

How acceptable this numbers game is depends on where you are on the curve.
Maybe this tech will advance to the point where few humans could do
better.  When that can be demonstrated I'll be a believer.  I'm betting
this will be one of those technologies that will improve in part as a
result lessons learned from tragic outcomes.  Many will benefit.  A few
will pay.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Admits Bolt EV Confusion, ? A r:200mi compliance-EV-gen2 ?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

The Bolt/Volt confusion is just another example of refusing to learn from
past mistakes.  What happens when you call your new model a Nova in Spanish
speaking countries?  You're telling your customers your car won't go.

Chris
On Feb 27, 2015 4:14 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:



 % Bolt EV being built on Sonic platform/underpinnings ... ?Is the Bolt a
 way
 for GM to reuse the Sonic production line? = ? Bolt will be a
 compliance-EV-gen2 ? %


 https://transportevolved.com/2015/02/23/bolt-or-volt-general-motors-admits-theres-confusion-over-plug-in-car-names/
 Bolt or Volt? General Motors Admits There’s Confusion Over Plug-in Car
 Names
 February 23, 2015 By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield

 [images

 https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2015-Chevrolet-BoltEV-Concept-exterior-004-580x386.jpg?3786b3
 The Chevrolet Bolt concept car is being made — but will it keep that name?


 https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2016-Chevrolet-Volt-019-580x420.jpg?3786b3
 Said aloud, ‘Chevrolet Volt ‘ and ‘Chevrolet Bolt’ sound indistinguishable.


 https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2015-Chevrolet-BoltEV-Concept-exterior-001.jpg
 What would you call this car other than ‘Bolt’?
 ]

 When General Motors unveiled the 200-mile, all-electric Bolt EV Concept Car
 at this year’s Detroit Auto Show, it caused instant confusion around the
 world, because its name when spoken — the Chevrolet Bolt — is almost
 indistinguishable from the name of GM’s established range-extended electric
 car, the Chevrolet Volt.

 Indeed, the words are so indistinguishable from one another in many
 languages that motoring journalists have taken to appending “the letter V”
 or “the letter B” to the end of each car’s name when discussing them
 verbally as a way of differentiating the two cars from one another. It’s
 even lead some outlets — including this one — to write entire pieces
 discussing why the Chevrolet Bolt is a bad name for GM’s first-ever
 long-range electric car.

 Initially, GM kept relatively quiet on the issue of the Chevy Bolt’s
 official name admitting that the name was at least originally just a
 concept
 car name. Now the Detroit giant has confirmed the 200-mile plug-in will
 enter production next fall as a 2017 model-year car however, it’s having to
 admit that the Bolt/Volt homophone is just too confusing.

 Talking with the Detroit Free Press, GM North America President Alan
 Bradley
 admitted the name is already causing some headaches.

 “Some people think it’s confusing,” he said. “People are having some fun
 with it. It is generating awareness, which is good. It’s so
 conversational.”

 Creating a marketing buzz over the Chevrolet Bolt is one thing, but
 creating
 a sensible differentiation between it and the Volt to help avoid
 service-desk, customer and dealer confusion is a far bigger concern.

 “We’re still in the decision phase,” Bradley said when asked if the Bolt
 name would stay. “It could go either way,” he stated, saying that GM has a
 year or so to make up its mind on the issue.

 Despite the confusion we and other news outlets have seen however, Bradley
 says it may not be as big an issue as some think.

 “The Volt and Bolt are different vehicles for people with different needs,”
 he added.

 With a promised range of 200-miles per charge and a target price tag of
 $30,000, the Chevrolet Bolt Concept Car we saw in Detroit this January
 certainly stood out against the more conventional-looking second-generation
 Chevrolet Volt range-extended electric car. Also unveiled in Detroit, the
 second-generation Volt — which will go on sale later this year as a 2016
 model year car — features an 18.4 kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack
 and
 a claimed range of 50 miles in electric mode before a 1.5-litre
 four-cylinder range-extending gasoline engine kicks in to provide extra
 range.

 It’s a far more conventional-looking five seat hatchback than the tall,
 urban-centric, ultra-modern Bolt, and there is at least some argument to be
 made that the two won’t be easily confused in person.

 The two offer different functionality too: the Bolt is designed to operate
 in and around major cities with the occasional long-distance road trip
 facilitated by on-board DC CCS quick charge capability.

 The Volt meanwhile, is designed to operate in electric mode for the daily
 commute, but offer range-extending capabilities for well over 500 miles of
 total range without needing to stop for fuel.

 Yet when it comes to the name itself, we’re convinced GM will have to
 change
 the name of its 200-mile four-seater before it enters production next year.

 The alternative is just too confusing for everyone, most of all customers.
 [© transportevolved.com]




 http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20150225/orion-assembly-to-halt-production-for-a-week-in-march
 Orion Assembly to halt production for a week in March
 By John Turk  02/25/15

 

Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Hi Ben,

 What SRPs CEO knows and you will find out is you are diving into a rabbit
 hole.  It is not a rational world down there, yet.

 I will just talk about batteries.


​Lots of excellent points, I'll just comment on one.
​


 On the battery front - you live an a place that gets quite hot, it get hot
 when have a lot of sunlight.  This means you will subject your batteries to
 the worst possible conditions for their life - high heat and high state of
 charge.  You should know that Leaf batter packs are proving to be very a
 lot of trouble in AZ and SoCal where they get hot, and Nissan did not make
 provisions to col them.  Some packs have lost 27% of their capacity in a
 year and lawsuits are in process.  The heat is killing them.  You are going
 to need to cool the system actively.  You need to know what the exact cells
 are  in it and their particular needs.  A mixed pack will need to have
 climate control for the worst cells in it.


​One thing I noticed after moving from SoCal is that almost everyone on the
east coast​ has a basement.  And even without climate control, it stays
around 60 degrees down there year 'round.  (Probably varies somewhat
depending on locale.)  If you don't have a basement, build an underground
bunker with proper grading, venting and drainage.  Once it's done, battery
storage should be forever trouble-free.  Cheap in the long run.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Spark EV owners care-less about fashion-police's ugliest-car ranking

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 9:34 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On 19 Dec 2014 at 1:47, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

 Like beauty, ugly is in the eye, et cetera.  Who really cares what other
 people think of your EV's appearance?  It's down to whether YOU like it.


​Agreed.

I used to own what is widely regarded as the ugliest car ever, a 1970's
Datsun F-10 station wagon.​  (Look it up.)  I wasn't particularly fond of
the looks, but that car was absolutely un-killable.  It was exactly what I
needed while focusing on college.  I have little doubt it is still ugly-ing
up some owner's driveway while it continues to refuse to die.

Note also this survey singled out the Spark EV, making no mention of the
Spark ICE.  I can only conclude that is one *very* ugly EV badge on the
car, since that is presumably the only difference between the two and sent
the EV straight to the top of the list.  The BMW i3 is on the list too.
C'mon, it's an unexpected departure from BMW's usual fare, but ugly?  Give
me a break.

Truly stupid.  What this list shows is that some people are unwilling to
accept a radical departure from the status quo.  These are the people who
will never ever drive an EV.  Who cares?  They are few and getting fewer,
so they don't matter.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Portable EVSE: Turning over a new Leaf...

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 1:54 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On 13 Dec 2014 at 12:48, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:

  I did like the Honda EVPlus better. It did have 100 mile real world
  range which lasted without noticeable degradation for six years.

 IMO, the EV Plus was a rather well developed EV.


​I'll go you one better.  I think the EVPlus was a more impressive
engineering feat than the EV1.  The EV1 got lots of press because it was
new and different, and became an icon for EVs everywhere.  But it had its
limitations, just like any specialty car.  That just added ​to the
character and panache of the EV experience.  The EVPlus was an
exceptionally refined and well-executed do-it-all family car (which is a
far tougher design challenge), which just happened to be electric.  Its
electricness was about as invisible as it could be.

As David goes on to say, Honda did all the bad stuff that GM did.  But
because the EV1 was the icon, it got all the press.  I still won't buy a
Honda until they build a pure EV and market it like they want to sell it.

Back to the point.  Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems to me that there's
 something disturbing going on with the deliberate destruction of these
 limited-production EVs.  I know, the manufacturers don't want to have to
 support them, but I think it goes beyond that.


​I think part of it is that the auto industry ​is run by car guys, and a
big part of that mentality is intertwined with the ICE.  Honda in
particular sees itself as an engine company.  EVs are seen as a threat to
the status quo.

Among true-blooded ICE-heads, there seems to still be a visceral hatred
 toward EVs. They just love to (both figuratively and literally) trash EVs,
 and to watch and read and hear others trash them. It's not surprising, I
 guess, but it's still a little unsettling.


​Sadly, the masses aren't very good at accepting anything different from
what they already know.  Anything in society that becomes institutionalized
is exceedingly difficult to supplant, no matter how much sense it makes.
 This is the way we've always done it.  Why should we change?  Are we
really surprised that some will take their resistance to the extreme of
religious zeal or cultural hatred?

Face it.  There are still plenty among us who are an embarrassment to the
species.  Some will never get it.  It is true that attitudes are changing,
but generally attitudes die hard (sometimes only with the death of the
host), so we just need to keep showing what the future could be.  Besides,
slow acceptance is probably more thorough and long-lasting acceptance.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Portable EVSE: Turning over a new Leaf...

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Mark Abramowitz ma...@enviropolicy.com
wrote:

 On Dec 14, 2014, at 6:24 AM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
   Honda in
  particular sees itself as an engine company.  EVs are seen as a threat to
  the status quo.

 Where can I find that information?


​I've never seen it addressed directly as a main topic of discussion, but
throughout my decades of following the auto industry it has been referenced
countless times
​ from a broad variety of sources​
.  From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda, comes this typical remark:

​
Honda, despite being known as an engine company,
​ ...  And this:

​
Honda has been the
​...
world's largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine measured by
volume, producing more than 14 million internal combustion engines each
year.
​
​
​

From *The Causes of Structural Unemployment...* by Thomas Janoski,​ while
discussing Toyota he adds this casual aside:

... the company strategy is long-term and focused on automobiles (unlike
Honda, which sees itself as an engine company doing automobiles, lawn
mowers, jet engines and other products).

From
http://www.torquenews.com/1083/2014-honda-accord-plug-hybrid-and-2014-2014-fit-ev-help-us-see-where-electric-car-market-going
​ comes this toss-off:  ​
Honda always prided itself as being a motor company.
​​

From *Honda: an American Success Story...* by Robert Shook, 
Honda is neither an automobile nor a motorcycle company, but an engine
company
​.​

From an article in the *Reading Eagle* newspaper on Honda's 50th
anniverwsary, Yet Honda has always considered itself first and foremost as
an engine company.

These were just from a single Google search.  I could go on ad nauseum, but
you get the idea.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hollywood Electrics a stealthy e-Motorcycle Gang

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 3:23 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:




 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095380_electric-motorcycle-gangs-youll-never-hear-them-coming
 Electric Motorcycle Gangs: You'll Never Hear Them Coming
 By Ben Rich  Nov 21, 2014

 Bikers are pack animals by nature.


​
Holy crap.

Even Green Car Reports isn't above sleazy sensationalism of stereotypes.
The writer has demonstrated in those few words that he knows nothing about
motorcycles or motorcyclists.

Could we dispense with the references to gangs when discussing
motorcycles?  There are virtually none left these days.  It's a concept
that was old even last century.  I'd prefer not to be associated with
criminal activity or incredibly bad B movies.

Chris​
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla manufacturing-robots named after X-Men superheroes

[Chris Tromley via EV]

​Back in the old days, comic book heroes weren't a popular phenomenon.
Computers were new, a portable computer weighed 40+ lbs and filled an
entire desktop.  We had three of them on carts in our lab.  We called them
Larry, Darryl and Darryl.

Chris

  (Sorry if some EVDLers don't get that pop culture reference from another
time.)
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 10:58 PM, Chris Meier m...@comcast.net wrote:

 Uber? Lyft? Have them pick it up for you, and you retain that hour...


​As in my case, and that of another poster, sometimes you really have to be
there.  Quickly.

Chris​
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem

[Chris Tromley via EV]

FWIW, I still remember the day a week before a trade show when something
went FUBAR on must-have-for-trade-show parts.  I ended up driving over 80
miles before lunch.  It does happen, and I don't want to be making excuses
for my EV.

I'm thinking the public will be OK with 150 miles and happy with 200.

Chris
On Nov 18, 2014 1:37 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

  Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric
  vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually
 exist
  in practice?

 That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a
 typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself.

 Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with
 one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than
 enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages
 the rest of the choir here knows so well.

 But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife
 or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when
 he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range.

 I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical
 electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains.

 I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him.
 Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of
 that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those
 with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough.

 Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of
 decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my
 friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could
 easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not
 need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work.

 b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Rush Dougherty r...@ironandwood.org
wrote:

 I'm not sure I agree... I think that
 ​​
 everything has its limits and it's fine to
 admit and respect them.


​Hold that thought - more later...​



 Let me ask you, if your boss, the day of the  must-have-for-trade-show
 parts
 asks you to pick up 20 bags of cement, and it would grossly overload the
 springs
 of your care, would you say Yes of course, or No my car cannot take that
 kind of
 weight?


​My car doesn't fly either.  But somehow it​

​wouldn't disappoint anyone to tell them my car was unable to get me across
the continent within a day.

As you say, ​...
​
everything has its limits and it's fine to
​ ​
admit and respect them.
​  But there are also expectations to consider.  There is no way I would
be riding my bicycle to work when there are many loose ends to tie off
before a high-stakes deadline like a trade show.  A car is a tool that
assists in carrying out the many responsibilities we have.  I need my car
to function.  Without fail.  Most people expect the same, but they don't
even think about it.  Until that very important tool falls short.

The expectations people have for their cars are a large part of the reason
Mr. and Ms Public​ are still hesitant about EVs.  Hobbyists like you and I
recognized the value of this technology early on and were willing to put up
with its pre-fully-developed limitations.  Now is not the time to hold onto
that willingness, because now is when the Public needs to start getting on
board in a big way.

I didn't really get it when Elon Musk insisted on giving the Model S such
an enormous range.  Even though I know I would never need that much, now I
understand his reasoning.

​People won't buy if they don't feel comfortable with their purchase.  Even
me.  That's why my conversion was good for 80 mpc using lead.  I was
seriously considering buying an i-Miev recently for my 46 mile round-trip
commute, until I realized its 60+ range wasn't enough in the real world.
Old-school conversion mentality doesn't play well in the world of public
opinion, and that's what matters if we want acceptance for EVs.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVent: Livewire EV @motorcycleshows.com/long-beach 11/1516 $ (video)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Harley's biggest demographic is aging out of relevance.  They desperately
need someone to step in to fill that gap or they're doomed.  Bad-ass biker
dudes are *so* last century.  But you know what?  Hipster chic has just as
big or bigger a following, and it's not really so alien to what the biker
lifestyle has evolved into.

Harley has introduced modern versions of the old-school Sportster while
keeping the look that both the bikers and hipsters like.  The LiveWire is
just a deeper reach into millennial-land.  I'm guessing the response on the
LiveWire tour has varied from suspicion to hatred from the bikers, and
confusion to really getting it from the millennials.  The mainstream
motorcycle press has been slowly but steadily warming to the idea of
e-motorcycles, faster than many of their readers.  Harley entering this
market is a big step in the right direction.

The whole biker thing has been a sad joke for years.  At some point even
Harley has to move on or die.  I applaud their initiative, but it remains
to be seen whether they'll follow through.

Chris

On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 1:46 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On 15 Nov 2014 at 11:02, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

  But if Ford made an electric Mustang with best-in-class 0-60 times or
  an F-150 with even more torque than a competitor's diesel hemi, people
  aren't going to care so much about either it only having an hundred
  miles of range or costing a modest premium.

 I think such an EV would appeal to a very small segment of people who buy
 muscle cars and trucks.  But EVs are even farther from the mainstream here
 than they are for small-sedan buyers.

 I realize (and am glad) that we have enlightened muscle car and truck fans
 on this very list.  Their numbers have undoubtedly grown over the last
 decade, but they remain a tiny minority.  I'm skeptical that they'll ever
 be
 sufficiently numerous to make economic sense for a mainstream automaker to
 target.

 It may be different out in CA, but here in the midwest, big trucks are kind
 of a religion, and EVs are for nonbelievers.  Sure, they can deliver more
 torque, but so can a chipped diesel.  That may increase emissions, but so
 what?  They either don't care or actively LIKE making emissions, kind of
 like dogs marking territory.  Some like the noise, too.

 As for muscle cars, they appeal to a totally different kind of buyer from
 those who buy high-end European performance cars.  The latter may indeed be
 swayed to EVs by rational performance arguments.  The former buy more with
 their guts than their heads, and are going to be harder to sell on EVs,
 IMO.

 My hat's off to Harley for trying.  I hope they sell a million.  But I'm
 not
 holding my breath.

 Glass-half-empty-ishly yours,

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

[Chris Tromley via EV]

No money in EVs?  It's a good thing Elon Musk doesn't know that.  I seem to
see more Model S's around where I live than newish Mercedes.

There are none so blind

Chris
On Nov 12, 2014 3:31 AM, brucedp via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:



 % Anyone seeing an automaker pattern here? Dejavu %

 http://gas2.org/2014/11/07/money-evs-says-mercedes-chief/
 No Money In EV’s Says Mercedes Chief
 [2014/11/07]

 [image
 http://gas2.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/mercedes-b-class-ED-2.jpg
 mercedes-b-class-ED-2
 ]

 Mercedes chief Dieter Zetsche was in Spain this week to introduce the
 Mercedes Benz B Class Electric Drive. While there, he told a press
 conference that the money Mercedes and other automakers are investing into
 EVs won’t be returned to them anytime soon.

 According to Green Car Reports, Zetsche was quoted as saying;

 “Manufacturers will not see a return within a reasonable time on the
 billions they’re investing now in electric cars. You can reasonably say
 that
 nobody today is making a battery-powered vehicle that’s economically viable
 in its own right.”

 If the head of Mercedes Benz says there is no money in EV’s, what does that
 say for the future of electric cars? How can manufacturers justify spending
 billions to develop battery powered vehicles to their shareholders if, as
 Zetsche says, there won’t be a significant return on that investment in a
 reasonable time?

 A big part of the problem is that EV sales have been considerably lower
 than
 anticipated. Manufacturers will need to move a lot more electrics if they
 want to recoup their investment and eventually make a profit. According to
 Bloomberg News, demand for electric vehicles has been developing slower
 than
 expected. Buyers are deterred by high vehicle prices and fears of being
 stranded along the roadside by a dead battery.

 Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Renault and Nisan, predicted his companies would sell
 1.5 million electric cars by 2016. But IHS Automotive suggests global sales
 will not top 1 million cars per year until 2020, and even that will be just
 1% of the market. EV sales this year are not expected to exceed 0.3% of the
 global new car market. Ghosn has since revised his prediction to 1.5
 million
 EVs by 2020, which is still 50% more than the IHS Automotive prediction.

 Mercedes thought it could limit its costs by using an existing chassis and
 turning to Tesla to supply the batteries and motors for the B Class
 Electric. As a result, the Mercedes EV weighs almost 500 lbs more than
 BMW’s
 similarly sized i3, which was built from the ground-up as an electric
 vehicle. The battery pack takes up a large chunk of the rear cargo area in
 the Mercedes, limiting the usefulness its hatchback design and failing to
 impress Consumer Reports.

 In the end, Mercedes elected to take the cheapest way out. BMW, on the
 other
 hand, not only offers a range extender option but also designed its car to
 look different from every other car in the market. Carlos Ghosn has also
 said that the Nissan LEAF is nearing profitability as the company continues
 to invest in electric cars and battery technology. Those are important
 differences to buyers and why industry analyst IHS predicts the BMW i3 wil
 outsell the B Class 5 to 1. No wonder BMW has a sunnier view of the future
 of EV’s than Mercedes does, and why the Benz CEO has such a sour outlook on
 electric cars.
 [© gas2.org]
 ...

 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095285_mercedes-ceo-no-one-will-make-money-on-electric-cars-in-reasonable-time
 Mercedes CEO: No One Will Make Money On Electric Cars In 'Reasonable Time'
 By John Voelcker  Nov 5, 2014
 ...

 http://www.carxmotor.com/2014/11/07/mercedes-benz-ceo-says-nobody-is-making-money-on-electric-cars-in/
 Mercedes-Benz CEO says nobody is making money on EVs ...
 Nov 6, 2014
 ...

 http://www.benzinsider.com/2014/11/daimler-boss-says-no-one-will-make-money-on-electric-cars-yet/
 Daimler Boss Says No One Will Make Money on Electric Cars Yet
 Giancarlo Perlas  [2014/11/09]
 ...

 http://www.insidercarnews.com/daimler-ceo-says-electric-cars-not-profitable/
 Daimler CEO Says Electric Cars Not Profitable
 by Steven Symes  Nov 11, 2014




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 http://www.scillytoday.com/2014/11/05/council-launches-project-to-get-islanders-driving-electric-cars/
 Project To Get Scilly.uk Islanders Driving Electric Cars
 ...
 http://www.visitislesofscilly.com/

 http://descrier.co.uk/technology/non-ev-vehicles-classed-green-cars/
 Non-EV vehicles Should-Not be classed as “green cars”

 http://www.uml.edu/News/stories/2014/Electric-Car-Charging-Stations.aspx
 UML's O’Mahony taps MassEVIP to bring on campus L2 EVSE w/ L3 planned
 +
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 --
 View this message in context:
 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

[Chris Tromley via EV]

That's an important point.  Growth is spectacularly cash-hungry, and Tesla
is growing at a pretty good clip.  For years.  Many young businesses would
have folded long ago.  Tesla is now planning a how-many-billion-dollar
gigafactory?

These guys just don't know how to play by the rules.

Chris
On Nov 12, 2014 12:40 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On Nov 12, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

  Tesla isn't profitable (yet).

 Not to go all citation needed, on you, but do you have any details on
 that? It's my understanding that they're bringing in more money than
 they're spending, but that they still have startup debts to pay off.
 They're also spending on capital to expand capacity. If that's the case,
 the man on the street may well describe them as profitable even though an
 accountant or banker might not. But that same lack of profit would
 similarly apply to everybody with an outstanding mortgage balance

 And, again, I don't have their financial figures at hand or even
 necessarily know what I'd do with them if you gave them to me.

 Cheers,

 b
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Re: [EVDL] EVrecord: 0-100kph:1.785s Grimsel.ch e-racer Out-Accelerate Formula1

[Chris Tromley via EV]

With all due respect to the Swiss researchers, I believe Plasma Boy was
faster than that a few years ago in his White Zombie - a door-slammer
Datsun 1200 conversion.

Chris
On Nov 7, 2014 5:39 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:




 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2820842/The-fastest-little-car-world-Electric-car-smashes-world-record-accelerating-0-100km-h-just-1-8-seconds.html
 The fastest little car in the world: Electric car smashes world record by
 accelerating from 0-100km/h in under 1.8 seconds
 By Mark Prigg  4 November 2014

 [images  / ETH Zurich

 http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/04/1415128821993_wps_5_MUST_CREDIT_ETH_Zurich_AN.jpg
 The mini-motor went from from 0 to 100 km/h in 1.785 seconds in under 30
 metres


 http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/04/1415129836077_wps_6_MUST_CREDIT_ETH_Zurich_AN.jpg
 The new record was set at the military airfield in Dübendorf, where the
 vehicle reached a speed of 100 km per hour in less than 30 metres.


 videos  flash
 ]

 Called Grimsel and developed by Swiss researchers
 Went from from 0 to 100 km/h in 1.785 seconds in under 30 metres

  It may look rather more like a toy car than a hi-tech racing machine, but
 this mini-racer has become the world's fastest electric car.

 Called the Grimsel, and developed by Swiss researchers, it broke the
 previous world record for acceleration by going from 0 to 100 km/h in 1.785
 seconds in under 30 metres.

 The carbon fibre construction has a total weight of 168 kg and produces
 about 200 hp (147 kW).

 The new record was set at the military airfield in Dübendorf, where the
 vehicle reached a speed of 100 km per hour in less than 30 metres.


 THE GRIMSEL

  Total weight of only 168kg

  Powered by four AMZ M4 wheel hub motors.

  Produce 37kW each at a weight of 3.4kg.

  The planetary gearbox which is integrated into the upright transmits the
 torque to accumulated 1630Nm at the wheels.

  The chassis is a one piece carbon fibre monocoque

  Aerodynamics package produces enough downforce to drive at the ceiling at
 110km/h.


 Raced by the  the Formula Student team at the Academic Motorsports Club
 Zurich (AMZ), it beat the previous record of 2.134 seconds, which was held
 by an electric car built by Delft University of Technology.

 The new record was set at the military airfield in Dübendorf, where the
 vehicle reached a speed of 100 km per hour in less than 30 metres.

 The new record-breaking vehicle is a Formula Student electric car that was
 developed and built in less than a year by 30 students at ETH Zurich and
 Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts. The ‘grimsel’ is the fifth
 AMZ electric car and the result of continuous development.

 The carbon fibre construction has a total weight of 168 kg and produces
 about 200 hp (147 kW).

 A four-wheel drive is implemented with four specially designed wheel hub
 motors, which generate a total torque of 1630 Nm at the wheels.
 Electric car breaks record by accelerating to 100km/h in 1.8secs

 By means of traction control, torque distribution is controlled
 individually
 for each wheel to maximise vehicle acceleration.

 No other production vehicle in the world has reached a similarly strong
 acceleration.

 The ‘grimsel’ celebrated numerous successes at the Formula Student
 international competition this summer.

 With more than 500 teams, Formula Student is the world’s biggest
 competition
 for engineers and is held annually at various locations around the globe.

 With three overall wins and an average of 920 points out of a possible
 1,000, the ‘grimsel’ is AMZ’s most successful car.

 And with its victories in Austria and Spain, it achieved the two highest
 scores in the European history of Formula Student.

 These further strengthened AMZ’s standing at the top of the Formula Student
 world rankings and demonstrated the potential in electric drive concepts.
 [© Associated Newspapers]
 ...

 https://transportevolved.com/2014/11/05/meet-grimsel-crazy-swiss-electric-car-can-accelerate-formula-one-car/
 Meet Grimsel, a Crazy Swiss Electric Car That Can Out-Accelerate an Formula
 One Car
 November 5, 2014 By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield
 ...

 https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2014/11/Grimsel_bricht_Weltrekord.html
 ‘grimsel’ breaks world record
 03.11.2014 ... set by students from ETH Zurich and Lucerne University of
 Applied Sciences and Arts, who also designed and built the vehicle ...
 ...
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimsel_Pass#History
 Grimsel-Pass.ch




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 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive 

Re: [EVDL] Range vs Speed

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I think people tend to generalize, thinking high speed must be
high-consumption and low speed low.  As in most things, it depends.  If you
rive for low consumption, high speed can be pretty economical. I've seen
this with my ICE vehicle watching the real time consumption readout,
sometimes see 50+ mpg at a steady, level 80 mph.  Conversely, if your slow
return trip was filled with a bazillion starts and stops, each will take
more energy to accelerate the vehicle than a steady cruise.

Chris

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 12:43 AM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 I'm not seeing much  difference in power usage at different speeds.
 Last night, I drove 60 miles on the highway/freeway, almost entirely at
 60mph.
 used 125AH out of my freshly charged pack.
 Tonight, I drove the return trip, taking almost an hour longer due to
 horrible slow traffic on the freeway.  Often stopped or below 10mph.
 Same power usage.

 --
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Re: [EVDL] Range vs Speed

[Chris Tromley via EV]

How much does it weigh?  What everyone else accelerates on every stop-start
is probably nothing compared to your situation.

Chris
On Nov 6, 2014 12:38 PM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I should have mentioned, this is with my electric F-250.
 Aerodynamics of a brick.
 I was REALLY expecting the much higher aero losses at high speed to make a
 measureable difference.

 On Wed Nov 05 21:43:42 PST 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
 I'm not seeing much  difference in power usage at different speeds.
 Last night, I drove 60 miles on the highway/freeway, almost entirely at
 60mph.
 used 125AH out of my freshly charged pack.
 Tonight, I drove the return trip, taking almost an hour longer due to
 horrible slow traffic on the freeway.  Often stopped or below 10mph.
 Same power usage.


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 http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
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Re: [EVDL] Lit C1 does the slalom and now has a tailgate.

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 9:41 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

   There has been a lot of speculation about the C1. Now it's performing
 and evolving.  My confidence in the vehicle just went up 1000%.


​Sorry, my confidence is still at zero.  That's not a slalom, that's a few
slow, mild turns strung together​.  At speed, one runs into another and
there are some complex transitions.  In some cases you have multiple,
overlapping transitions.

Getting their control system to handle one thing at a time is not much of a
challenge, and I'm disappointed it's taken them this long to get only this
far.  Complexity goes up exponentially when you start trying to do more
than one thing at once.  I doubt even NASA could achieve a proper result at
a commercially reasonable cost.

​I predict at best they will release a vehicle that is serviceable only if
you drive like a grandma.  When things get sticky and you rely on it to get
you out, it will come up very short.  That's going to get them talked
about.​  I fear there will be LITigation jokes.

My advice is to hold onto your money.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Lit EP4 self-balancing e-motorcycle (video)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Regarding previous motorcycle riding experience, that might actually be a
hindrance.

I had some detailed correspondence with the Lit spokesman some time back.
I learned that the steer by wire approach was necessary due to the approach
they would take regarding initiating a turn.  It's an approach that
conflicts with what any motorcyclist would do.

So if you're a motorcyclist, check your reflexes at the door.

Chris
On Nov 4, 2014 6:12 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:



 [ref

 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lit-C1-does-the-slalom-and-now-has-a-tailgate-tp4672331.html
 Lit C1 does the slalom and now has a tailgate
 ]

 In the above post, it gives:
 [video
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxTRox3Vt9E
 The Future of Transportation
 Danny Kim  Nov 3, 2014
 Say hello to our new prototype EP4. Born Sept 1, 2014.
 Think of it as the Lit Motors' version of the Wright brother's Flyer.
 www.LitMotors.com
 ]

  which shows Lit's latest electric-motorcycle prototype (note the
 side-mounted wheels during its RD period) being driven by a driver that
 has
 never driven a motorcycle before (I'll assume she does not have a CA
 motorcycle license either ... btw ?Is that an SF Presidio parking lot in
 the
 background?).

 It also shows first an ice-motorcycle being knocked over using an ice-van
 tugging at it with a long tie down strap (ouch! Hope the ice e-cycle did
 not
 get too many dings).

 Then it showed that same knock-over attempt but with the Lit e-motorcycle
 prototype. The e-cycle did not knock-over. The van tugged at it, but only
 dragged the e-cycle sideways while it self-corrected staying upright.


 ?Does this bring a whole new way of looking at 2wheel driving the CA DMV is
 going to have to adjust for?

 Not unlike autonomous self-driving plugins (yes, they are going to be sold
 sooner than you likely want to be), a self-balancing e-cycle could open
 doors/opportunities to many 2wheel wannabe drivers that previously could or
 would not learn to balance/drive on two wheels.

 As more and more technology comes into our lives, lets learn about it, how
 it can help us, and at the same time keep ourselves on a short-leash to
 keep
 from becoming one-with-the-Borg (everyone should still know how to walk and
 chewy-gum at the same time on their own).




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 {brucedp.150m.com}
 ...

 https://www.google.com/search?q=SF+Presidiosource=lnmstbm=ischsa=Xei=oq5YVPqsDIunyQTtxIGoAg
 SF Presidio
 http://www.presidio.gov/map/PrintMaps/Main%20Post%20Parking%20Map.pdf
 http://www.presidioparkway.org/gallery/
 ...
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29#Assimilation
 Borg



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 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
 Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Lit EP4 self-balancing e-motorcycle (video)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Recovering from an impact is a well-bounded problem.  To appreciate what
the C1 will have to deal with in the real world, consider the robot
'cheetah' at 30 mph when an obstacle darts into its path.

Slow rapidly, bank hard left while still slowing, then while still rolling
left, reverse to bank hard right.  While still rolling right, reverse to
hard left again but pull out as you approach upright to continue forward.

Even with a human pilot to provide the inputs, overlapping compensations
will drive these control systems nuts.

It's a very real world out there, and Lit is so not ready for it.

Chris
On Nov 4, 2014 11:08 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Related to the image in the SUBJECT video (pulling the self-baqlancing
 vehicle sideways and it still remaining balanced)., yesterday I saw videos
 of the DARPA research on robots and it is AMAZING where they are at.

 They showed full 2 legged huminoid robots (with arms for balance) running
 across a field of rocks, bricks and debris!
 They showed 4 legged robots running at up to 30 MPH (Cheeta)
 They showed the 2 legged robot standing on one foot and being hit from the
 side with a wrecking ball mass at the legs and  hips, and in all cases,
 MAINTAING its balance.  It looked just like a human would,  The reaction
 of the other leg and the torso and the 2 arms would conteract the
 de-stabilizing force and the robot would retain its balance on one foot!

 And they said, it actually does it better than a human (in the same test)
 because the robot has no fear.  Whereas the human would not stand for
 the whack from the side...

 Bob

 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley via
 EV
 Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 9:44 AM
 To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lit EP4 self-balancing e-motorcycle (video)

 Regarding previous motorcycle riding experience, that might actually be a
 hindrance.

 I had some detailed correspondence with the Lit spokesman some time back.
 I learned that the steer by wire approach was necessary due to the
 approach they would take regarding initiating a turn.  It's an approach
 that conflicts with what any motorcyclist would do.

 So if you're a motorcyclist, check your reflexes at the door.

 Chris
 On Nov 4, 2014 6:12 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 
 
  [ref
 
  http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lit-C1-do
  es-the-slalom-and-now-has-a-tailgate-tp4672331.html
  Lit C1 does the slalom and now has a tailgate ]
 
  In the above post, it gives:
  [video
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxTRox3Vt9E
  The Future of Transportation
  Danny Kim  Nov 3, 2014
  Say hello to our new prototype EP4. Born Sept 1, 2014.
  Think of it as the Lit Motors' version of the Wright brother's Flyer.
  www.LitMotors.com
  ]
 
   which shows Lit's latest electric-motorcycle prototype (note the
  side-mounted wheels during its RD period) being driven by a driver
  that has never driven a motorcycle before (I'll assume she does not
  have a CA motorcycle license either ... btw ?Is that an SF Presidio
  parking lot in the background?).
 
  It also shows first an ice-motorcycle being knocked over using an
  ice-van tugging at it with a long tie down strap (ouch! Hope the ice
  e-cycle did not get too many dings).
 
  Then it showed that same knock-over attempt but with the Lit
  e-motorcycle prototype. The e-cycle did not knock-over. The van tugged
  at it, but only dragged the e-cycle sideways while it self-corrected
 staying upright.
 
 
  ?Does this bring a whole new way of looking at 2wheel driving the CA
  DMV is going to have to adjust for?
 
  Not unlike autonomous self-driving plugins (yes, they are going to be
  sold sooner than you likely want to be), a self-balancing e-cycle
  could open doors/opportunities to many 2wheel wannabe drivers that
  previously could or would not learn to balance/drive on two wheels.
 
  As more and more technology comes into our lives, lets learn about it,
  how it can help us, and at the same time keep ourselves on a
  short-leash to keep from becoming one-with-the-Borg (everyone should
  still know how to walk and chewy-gum at the same time on their own).
 
 
 
 
  For EVLN posts use:
 
  http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.j
  tp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln+-re%26sort%3Dd
  ate
 
 
  {brucedp.150m.com}
  ...
 
  https://www.google.com/search?q=SF+Presidiosource=lnmstbm=ischsa=X;
  ei=oq5YVPqsDIunyQTtxIGoAg
  SF Presidio
  http://www.presidio.gov/map/PrintMaps/Main%20Post%20Parking%20Map.pdf
  http://www.presidioparkway.org/gallery/
  ...
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29#Assimilation
  Borg
 
 
 
  --
  View this message in context:
  http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lit-EP4-s
  elf-balancing-e-motorcycle-video-tp4672337.html
  Sent from the Electric Vehicle

Re: [EVDL] Lit EP4 self-balancing e-motorcycle (cheetah)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I like it.  I wonder if Lit could get the C1 to simply jump over potential
collisions.  ;^)
On Nov 4, 2014 12:24 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Ø  consider the robot 'cheetah' at 30 mph when an obstacle darts into its
 path.

 They did that.  The robot cheetah jumped over the obstacles.  The movie was
 cute to watch as the human throwing objects and obstacles onto the
 treadmill was working harder than the robot cheetah was in missing them.



 Though the icing on the cake was at the end of the treadmill video when the
 cheetah blew a high pressure hydraulic line and spewed hydraulic fluid
 everywhere and was jerked off the treadmill (to avoid becoming a pile of
 junk at the wall)…



 There was another video of a free-ranging cheetah robot running at high
 speed across a field without **any** attachments (though not at 30 MPH).
  The treadmill cheetah had protective tethers and an external power
 source.  The free-range cheetah was completely automonous with a motorcycle
 engine powering the hydraulics)  Probably going 15 MPH or so.



 Bob





 *From:* Chris Tromley [mailto:ctrom...@gmail.com]
 *Sent:* Tuesday, November 04, 2014 11:30 AM
 *To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Robert Bruninga
 *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Lit EP4 self-balancing e-motorcycle (video)



 Recovering from an impact is a well-bounded problem.  To appreciate what
 the C1 will have to deal with in the real world, consider the robot
 'cheetah' at 30 mph when an obstacle darts into its path.

 Slow rapidly, bank hard left while still slowing, then while still rolling
 left, reverse to bank hard right.  While still rolling right, reverse to
 hard left again but pull out as you approach upright to continue forward.

 Even with a human pilot to provide the inputs, overlapping compensations
 will drive these control systems nuts.

 It's a very real world out there, and Lit is so not ready for it.

 Chris

 On Nov 4, 2014 11:08 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

 Related to the image in the SUBJECT video (pulling the self-baqlancing
 vehicle sideways and it still remaining balanced)., yesterday I saw videos
 of the DARPA research on robots and it is AMAZING where they are at.

 They showed full 2 legged huminoid robots (with arms for balance) running
 across a field of rocks, bricks and debris!
 They showed 4 legged robots running at up to 30 MPH (Cheeta)
 They showed the 2 legged robot standing on one foot and being hit from the
 side with a wrecking ball mass at the legs and  hips, and in all cases,
 MAINTAING its balance.  It looked just like a human would,  The reaction
 of the other leg and the torso and the 2 arms would conteract the
 de-stabilizing force and the robot would retain its balance on one foot!

 And they said, it actually does it better than a human (in the same test)
 because the robot has no fear.  Whereas the human would not stand for
 the whack from the side...

 Bob

 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley via
 EV
 Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 9:44 AM
 To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lit EP4 self-balancing e-motorcycle (video)

 Regarding previous motorcycle riding experience, that might actually be a
 hindrance.

 I had some detailed correspondence with the Lit spokesman some time back.
 I learned that the steer by wire approach was necessary due to the
 approach they would take regarding initiating a turn.  It's an approach
 that conflicts with what any motorcyclist would do.

 So if you're a motorcyclist, check your reflexes at the door.

 Chris
 On Nov 4, 2014 6:12 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 
 
  [ref
 
  http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lit-C1-do
  es-the-slalom-and-now-has-a-tailgate-tp4672331.html
  Lit C1 does the slalom and now has a tailgate ]
 
  In the above post, it gives:
  [video
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxTRox3Vt9E
  The Future of Transportation
  Danny Kim  Nov 3, 2014
  Say hello to our new prototype EP4. Born Sept 1, 2014.
  Think of it as the Lit Motors' version of the Wright brother's Flyer.
  www.LitMotors.com
  ]
 
   which shows Lit's latest electric-motorcycle prototype (note the
  side-mounted wheels during its RD period) being driven by a driver
  that has never driven a motorcycle before (I'll assume she does not
  have a CA motorcycle license either ... btw ?Is that an SF Presidio
  parking lot in the background?).
 
  It also shows first an ice-motorcycle being knocked over using an
  ice-van tugging at it with a long tie down strap (ouch! Hope the ice
  e-cycle did not get too many dings).
 
  Then it showed that same knock-over attempt but with the Lit
  e-motorcycle prototype. The e-cycle did not knock-over. The van tugged
  at it, but only dragged the e-cycle sideways while it self-corrected
 staying upright.
 
 
  ?Does this bring a whole new way of looking at 2wheel driving the CA

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Say Watt? TMC sez no one wants a Toyota EV ...

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 3:15 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:


  No one is coming to our door asking us to build a new electric car.


​I beg to differ.

I, for one, did precisely that.  When I saw the Lexus ad​

​that openly bashes EVs I wrote to Toyota marketing and told them I had
previously been a happy Toyota owner.  But after that clear demonstration
​of their hostility toward EVs, one of our best opportunities to stop
degrading the planet we all rely on, I would stop buying Toyotas of any
kind.  And stop advising others to buy Toyotas when asked for my opinion as
a car guy.  The only way they could bring me back into the fold would be
to build - and actively promote - a pure electric vehicle.

I seriously doubt I am alone.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] DC-DC Cooling

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:53 AM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 On Tue Oct 07 21:33:02 PDT 2014 j...@ecoreality.org said:
 I agree with others that the parallel Vicor modules may be fighting with
 each other. Are they adjustable? If so, you could sum them via a Schottky
 isolator, but it will drop about 0.2 volt, which you'd probably want to
 adjust out.

 Already doing that.  Actually, I'm seeing a bigger voltage drop across the
 30A fuse on each module than I am across the diodes.


​This electronical stuff is outside my comfort zone, but I thought one of
the reasons for using Vicor modules is that they are made to play nicely.
One driver, X slaves, the driver runs the show and everyone shares.
Assuming​

​no external issues like that hot fuse, of course.

Chris​
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Re: [EVDL] DC-DC Cooling

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 7:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 I think I'm going to have to figure out how to water cool my DC-DC.
 I built this one using 4 Vicor 20A bricks to get a 80A capable unit.
 It all fits on the back of a 6 square 2 thick heatsink with a 6 fan on
 it.
 I'm noticing that when I'm running 40A continuous load, the output starts
 becoming erratic.  Ther fan on the heatsink doesn't seem to be enough when
 I'm drawing a lot of 12V power. (blower, lights, brakes, etc..)
 ​


​I used a Vicor Megamod on one side of a 1/16 aluminum sheet and a Batmod
with a simple control circuit cookbooked from the Vicor app notes on
another sheet on the other side.  In between I had a triple ro​
w of 1/8 copper tubing doing a serpentine thing between the two
​.  Inlets and outlets were done with a little 3-into-1 collector into some
3/8 copper tubing.  Everthing was JB Welded together.  With 1/8 standoffs
around judiciously placed screws, it all remained very flat and sturdy.
Very compact for its power.  It wasn't a quick build, but fairly
straightforward.  Unfortunately I never ran it at the loads you're pulling,
but if that's a concern you could go up in size.  You probably have room
for that in your truck.  I didn't in my car.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Really efficient electric drive trains and what they are?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 When I saw the Stella it made growling ticking noises that stopped after
 the vehicle made some speed.  They said these motors were 98 % efficient.
 I thought the run of the mill ADC motor with a Curtis controller was 90 %
 and brushless were a bit more efficient.  Are these motors worth the 10's
 of thousands they cost?  Are there motorcycle/bicycle  hub motors we can
 buy that are very efficient?  Each of the Stella motors are 20kw.  Some
 bicycle hub motors are very powerful. 10 or more kw.   Is there a loss of
 efficiency with these new powerful motors?  What do I need to compliment a
 very aerodynamic body/go freeway speeds  not suck the life out of my
 batteries?


​I'm certainly no motor expert, but my understanding is ​that PM motors
only get that high efficiency at max power.  The cogging effect (the field
is always there) hurts efficiency everywhere else, and a road vehicle
spends virtually all of its time NOT at max power.  Other attractions of PM
motors are their relatively light weight and ease of implementing regen.

Those who have converted motorcycles have used these advantages, but some
have come to realize they come at a cost.  Light weight also means a
greater tendency to overheat.  Startup torque can be underwhelming.  Series
motors solve these issues nicely, and also coast freely.  I don't want to
re-start the coasting vs. regen debate, but coasting with no regen can be a
pretty effective range enhancement.

The other issue is hub motors.  To my knowledge, no-one has made these work
on an everyday on-road vehicle.  The main concern is unsprung weight, which
will be even more of an issue in a hyperlight car.  If you want to give a
try anyway I'd suggest scooter hub motors, because they have presumably
been designed to survive the pounding an unsprung component gets.  But the
ones I've seen have been designed more for cost than efficiency.

If it was me doing this, I'd probably go the Tropica route.  Use small
series motors near the drive wheels.  Use trailing arm suspension and mount
the motors at or near the trailing arm pivot, with belt or chain drive to
the wheels.  That should get you a solution close to what you're looking
for with low risk.  You're going to have your hands more than full with all
the other aspects of this vehicle.  Getting hub motors to work well is a
whole 'nother project by itself.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EValert: !Don't buy a salvaged Tesla EV to repair drive! (video)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I agree completely.  However, there was a passing mention in the original
post about Otmar's Stretchla.  I would think Otmar would have no problem
signing such a document.

So what's up, Otmar?  Has your drive line upgrade hit a snag?

Chris
On Sep 28, 2014 8:33 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 This is a no brainer.

 The value of the Tesla brand is extremely high.  The negative value and
 media feeding frenzie of a hacker-induced fire, crash, or ANYTHING that
 would spoil the brand name is simply not worth the risk.  I don't blame
 Tesla.

 If the guy wants to hack a tesla, then simply sign the form.  Done.

 Bob


 On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 5:12 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

 
 
  'I am blacklisted by Tesla all across the country'
  *** Buyer beware - Caveat emptor ***
  % Tesla running 'GM-liability-scared'  a petty-parts case of the
   'Sue Me, Sue You Blues'  The media stink caused Tesla react
*** Otmar was Tesla-tortured before this %
 
  http://gas2.org/2014/09/27/tesla-wont-activate-mans-salvaged-model-s/
  Tesla Won’t Activate Man’s Salvaged Model S
  [2014/09/27]
 
  [image
  http://gas2.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/salvage-tesla.png
  salvage-tesla
 
 
  video  flash
  ]
 
  Starting at $70,000, the Tesla Model S costs more than twice what
 Americans
  spend on the average new car, meaning most people that plain old can’t
  afford it. This has led some people to take desperate measures, such as
  repairing a salvage titled Model S, though a San Diego man is learning
 the
  hard way that it isn’t quite that easy.
 
  San Diego 6 News reported the plight of Peter Rutman, who spent $50,000
 on
  a
  damaged Tesla Model S, and then invested another $8,000 into repair it.
 But
  when Rutman contacted Tesla about reactivating the car’s complicated
  software, he says the company wanted him to sign liability waiver that
  allows the automaker to ultimately determine the car’s roadworthiness.
  Rutman says the document didn’t say anything about fixing or repairing
 the
  car to accept a charge, and that it would allow Tesla to confiscate the
  vehicle if they felt it wasn’t safe. Rutman refused to sign, and as such
  says he’s been blacklisted by Tesla stores nationwide, meaning he can’t
 get
  parts of technical assistance.
 
  For its part, Tesla has serious safety concerns regarding the salvaged
  electric vehicle, but nothing in the inspection authorization form they
  wanted Rutman to sign would have let them take his car away. Tesla also
  says
  Rutman had his vehicle repaired by a non-authorized Tesla installer, and
  while he isn’t blacklisted, the company doesn’t sell certain parts that
  require special training to install to just anyone. Compare that to
  traditional automakers, which will sell you literally every piece you
 need
  to build a car, except in the case of specialty vehicles such as the
 Camaro
  Z/28.
 
  Rutman isn’t the only one to run afoul of Tesla’s parts counter and
  technical service though; a recent attempt to build a Tesla-powered
  stretched-wheelbase Volkswagen Westfalia (the “Stretchla”) has run into
  issues with Tesla as well. Because Tesla owns all its own stores and
  service
  centers, there’s no outside network for people who want to fix or
  re-engineer Model S components for their own purposes. Rutman has decided
  to
  try and sue the salvage auction that sold him the Model S, since
 California
  state law says if a car can’t be made roadworthy, it must be scrapped.
 
  The takeaway here? For those car modifiers who want to use a Tesla
  drivetrain for an EV conversion of their own, buyer beware. Rutman found
  out
  the hard way that the rules that apply to conventional cars don’t always
  apply to EVs, and especially not Teslas. Also I’d like to note, for the
  $58,000 Rutman spent, he was just $2,000 shy of what a base 60 kWh Model
 S
  would have cost, once Federal ($7,500) and state ($2,500) tax credits
 were
  factored in.
 
  As the old saying goes, penny wise, pound foolish.
  [© gas2.org]
 
 
 
 
 
 http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/San-Diego-mans-58000-nightmare-with-a-Tesla-Model-S-277017201.html
  San Diego man's $58,000 nightmare with Tesla Model S
  By Derek Staahl Sep 24, 2014
 
  SAN DIEGO -- A San Diego man bought a high-end Tesla at auction for
 nearly
  half price, but now he can't get the company to activate the car.
 
  Peter Rutman purchased the 2012 Model S Signature at auction in March for
  $50,000 then spent another $8,000 fixing it.
 
  He says repairing the car has been easy; dealing with Tesla has been the
  challenge.
 
  I'm blacklisted all across the country, he said. Nobody's allowed to
  help
  us. They're not allowed to sell us parts. They're not allowed to service
  the
  car. Nothing.
 
  Rutman's Model S is a salvage title car, meaning an insurance company
  determined the vehicle was a total loss. Salvage titles are a notoriously
  risky proposition, but Rutman's case 

Re: [EVDL] Building a true road going solar EV. Help everyone.

[Chris Tromley via EV]

​Being a product development​ engineer, this strikes me as a HUGE project.
Even if you're not looking for professional results.  I sense that you
understand this is not something you'll be able to toss off in a weekend,
but the key issue as I see it is this - how much time and effort will you
need to invest to ensure that your large investment results in something
worth the investment?

What will be the operating envelope for this vehicle?  If it's going to be
out in traffic - a cage among the cars and not just a lone cyclist near the
shoulder, it needs some crash protection.  Bicycle tube won't cut it.  It
is possible to make a real car extremely light and still safe, but your
options are limited.  Go to an SCCA road race at a local track, wander
around the pits and look at the smaller sports racing cars. Also locost
construction techniques(Google it).  Then realize that including operating
doors complicates things dramatically in terms of chassis strength.

Another reason to move away from bicycle-think and more toward a very light
but real car, is that you're going to have a hard time finding or adapting
components for a car built with bike tech.  Not only that, but a bike-ish
car amounts to coloring far enough outside the lines that most rules of
thumb you'll be tempted to rely on will be useless.  You're on your own.

Do you want to design and build your steering system and all suspension
parts from scratch?  Car stuff will be far too heavy for a bike-ish car.
If Zzipper makes your windshield (presumably from plastic), how will you
implement wipers that don't turn it into a scratched up haze?  Without
wipers you'll never get a plate for it.  Speaking of which, how will you
implement a hyper-lightweight parking brake that passes inspection?  These
are only a few questions of dozens you'll have to work out to make this
successful.

I'd suggest making this a mental/sketching/calculating/spreadsheet project
for quite a while before you buy any parts, cut metal or shape plastic.
Pay attention to the interplay of different aspects and the compromises.
You'll be surprised how much it changes and improves.  Trust me, it's a lot
easier, quicker and cheaper changing things in the design stage than going
through multiple prototypes.  And you'll get a better final result.

Whatever direction you go, best of luck!

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

I think you're fighting a losing battle.  Different alloys have an
influence, but not enough to overcome the fact that copper has roughly
twice the conductivity (both electrical and thermal) of aluminum.  You'll
need twice the cross-sectional area in aluminum as you would need with
copper to achieve similar performance.  Your 1.75 inch test shows a lack of
proportionality, but that's likely due to short straps and how the current
flows locally from the bolted joint.

I'm thinking your best bet is to use copper conductors and be very sure all
connections are thoroughly greased (Noalox, Vaseline, whatever) to ensure
all moisture is excluded from the joint.  And I would re-grease them once a
year.

Chris

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 2:54 AM, via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I thought folks would like to hear the results of some of my testing.

 1/2 inch smashed copper pipe, 200 Amps for a 2S2P pack of 8 Ahr P (for
 Power) Headway cells: Things stayed cool.

 1/2 inch by 0.02 inch braided strap with smashed copper pipe at
 connections: 5 F rise in 90 seconds at 200 A

 1/2 inch by 0.01 inch Al: 200A, 80F to 200F in about 15 seconds! This was
 done in the oxidized state.

 1/2 inch by 0.01 inch Al: 200A, 80F to 200F in about 15 seconds! This was
 done with sanding and immediate Noalox.

 1.75 inch by 0.02 inch Al: 200A, 80F to 160F in about 30 seconds.

 The Al performed way worse than theory predicted, then I think I figured
 it out. Al roof flashing from Home Depot is apparently not a very
 conductive alloy of Al. I'd guess better Al would perform much closer to Cu.
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Re: [EVDL] 270.224 mph at Bonneville

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 3:45 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:


 Plenty planes that can't go as fast as this monster on wheels!


​Just to sharpen the point, it's technologically MUCH less challenging to
get something to fly at 270 mph than to ​get something to roll on the
ground at that speed with anything resembling stability.

Bravo!

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 I think with the relatively recent CAFE (fuel economy) rules adopted by
 the EPA we will see a gradual change.  I'm hoping that change will
 accelerate if Tesla and others can produce a 200+ mile range SUV or light
 truck at a cost (including long term fuel costs) comparable to ICE versions.


​For those who truly need larger capacity than a sedan (which includes me -
I prefer station wagons, but don't see anything more than hatchbacks), the
only alternative I see right now is a conversion or a Nissan eNV200.  (See
www.env200.com; it is shown in utility and people-mover versions.)  It's
not in production yet as far as I know.  It's based on the Leaf platform so
has the Leaf's range, which might not be enough for some.  Hopefully all
this talk of 200 mile range EVs will have an effect on specs prior to
roll-out.​

Any others?  All I can think of is commercial trucks made by low-volume
manufacturers, which are made for industrial use - not families.

Chris
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