Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

Looks like the military uses a good grade of paint and good painting technique. 
 I disassembled 67 boxes of batteries and not one box had corrosive damage.  
However, all the paint was intake.  Thanks, for the info on aluminum.  I was 
planning on using some larger NiCad with a solar system.  I will use steel for 
the frames.



From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 2:27 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

ROBERT via EV wrote:
> I do not understand your statement "Also, I learned not to put them
> in an aluminum box " The original boxes were made of aluminum.  In
> addition, I think all aircraft NiCad use aluminum boxes.

My experience is that the potassium hydroxide electolyte is highly
corrosive to aluminum. If it gets on the aluminum, it corrodes it.

Potassium hydroxide doesn't seem to bother steel, however. That is the
reverse of the effect of the sulfuric acid electrolyte in lead-acid
batteries.

> I am sending the batteries to Recyclers of America.  They pay for
> shipping. I am paying a $0.75 per pound recycling fee.  Not low cost
> for 1500 Lb of batteries.

It's too bad you couldn't find a good home that could put these
batteries back to work. But congratulations for doing the right thing on
recycling them!

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

I do not understand your statement "Also, I learned not to put them in an 
aluminum box " The original boxes were made of aluminum.  In addition, I think 
all aircraft NiCad use aluminum boxes.  I am sending the batteries to Recyclers 
of America.  They pay for shipping.  I am paying a $0.75 per pound recycling 
fee.  Not low cost for 1500 Lb of batteries.



From: EV  on behalf of Damon Henry via EV 

Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 11:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

Wow, at one time I would have drooled all over these.  In fact I bought a 
couple hundred surpluss BB600 myself and used them in both my EVs. I'm afraid I 
am lithium spoiled now.  The flooded NiCads took too much maintenance and were 
quite messy.  Also, I learned not to put them in an aluminum box :)

Can you share details on the logistics of sending them to the recyclers?  I 
still have some dead ones laying around I need to properly dispose of some day.

thanks
Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ROBERT via EV 

Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 2:14 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

I have approximately 1100 NiCad cells.  I purchased them about 10 years ago as 
military surplus.  They were used in helicopters.  The specifications are: Saft 
Model No. KO 14KH-B-1. 11 Amp-Hrs. Size: 2.25" W X 5.25" H, and 1" D.  If 
anyone needs these batteries and are willing to pay shipping, you can have 
them.  If not, I am shipping them to the recyclers next week.  In addition, I 
have the battery links.  Specifications: 1.5" L X 0.5 " W.  Ctr - Ctr hole 
spacing: 1" Holes dia: 3/16".  The links are Ni plate Cu.  If anyone needs 
these links, I will sell them for the price of cooper.


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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

They discontinued this service.

From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Monday, November 5, 2018 2:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

I don't know whether they still do, you'd have to check -- but Saft used to
rebuild their cells and batteries (for a fee of course).  Instead of
recycling your NiCd cells, maybe you could have Saft rebuild them, and then
sell them as essentially new ones.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

There are only a few recyclers that take flooded NICad batteries.  The biggest 
is Battery Recyclers of America.  This company operates the recycle bins at 
Lowes and Home Depot.  They do not take flooded Nicad batteries or large format 
battery assemblies at Lowes.  In order to get Battery Recyclers of America or 
any recycler to take flooded Nicad you must have at least 1000 lb.  They will 
pickup the batteries for free; however, they charge $0.75 per pound for 
recycling.  They will issues a recycle certificate.  This recycle certificate 
is a requirement when buying military surplus aircraft flooded Nicad batteries 
from the government.  When you buy the batteries the government sends an 
inspector to see what you are going to do with the batteries.  You must sign a 
statement saying that when you are finished with the batteries you will recycle 
the batteries via an approved recycle facility.  Whoever first purchased the 
batteries from the government must pass on this requirement to the next 
purchaser. I think, you are going to have a similar requirement for large 
battery assemblies.  There will be a recycling fee and it will not be low cost.



From: EV  on behalf of Mark Abramowitz via EV 

Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 8:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mark Abramowitz; Bill Collins
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

Let me edit correct that - that is, unless they say that they do.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2018, at 7:18 AM, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:
>
> I’m pretty sure that hazardous waste drop-offs do not recycle the batteries.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
>> On Nov 4, 2018, at 6:33 AM, Damon Henry via EV  wrote:
>>
>> I dropped a couple dead SAFT STM5 100s off at our hazardous waste drop  in 
>> the NiCad section several years ago.  I came back a second time with more 
>> and they stopped me and said they could not take that format...  It's been 
>> quite a while, so I guess I could give it a go with a few BB600s and see 
>> what they say.  I could also talk to them about large format lithiums.  I'm 
>> going to eventually need a plan for those as well.
>>
>> Damon
>> 
>> From: EV  on behalf of Bill Collins via EV 
>> 
>> Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 4:27 AM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: Bill Collins
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries
>>
>> I took a quick look at that before buying a few BB660 cells to experiment 
>> with as a starting battery for an ice. They seem to meet all the 
>> requirements for dropping off in the battery recycle bin at Lowes home 
>> centers. It's not a practical way to dispose of a large number, but for a 
>> few dead cells, I would just drop one off from time to time.
>>
>> I'm interested in hearing the details on larger scale recycling too.
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

My mistake.  You only fill a flooded NICAD after charging.


From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 9:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

Yup, *very* messy if you fill a battery first and then charge, unless you
enjoy dealing with overflowing electrolyte.

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018, 8:58 PM John Lussmyer via EV  On Thu Nov 01 20:26:52 PDT 2018 bhensle...@msn.com said:
> >They were military surplus.  I have not tested the cells/batteries
> batteries.  The electrolyte has evaporated.  You would need to clean the
> terminals on each battery with a brush, fill the battery with a solution of
> distilled water and 30% potassium hydroxide (KOH), charge the battery, and
> check the discharge rate.
>
> No, do NOT fill them first.  As those of us who have a bunch of BB600
> military NiCd's found, just charge them first.
> Then, if they are still low after being fully charged, you can add water.
> They can look dry - still charge them first!
>
>
> --
>
> Try my Sensible Email package!
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

They were military surplus.  I have not tested the cells/batteries batteries.  
The electrolyte has evaporated.  You would need to clean the terminals on each 
battery with a brush, fill the battery with a solution of distilled water and 
30% potassium hydroxide (KOH), charge the battery, and check the discharge rate.




From: EV  on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV 

Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 6:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

On Thu Nov 01 14:14:48 PDT 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>I have approximately 1100 NiCad cells.  I purchased them about 10 years ago as 
>military surplus.  They were used in helicopters.  The specifications are: 
>Saft Model No. KO 14KH-B-1. 11 Amp-Hrs. Size: 2.25" W X 5.25" H, and 1" D.  If 
>anyone needs these batteries and are willing to pay shipping, you can have 
>them.  If not, I am shipping them to the recyclers next week.  In addition, I 
>have the battery links.  Specifications: 1.5" L X 0.5 " W.  Ctr - Ctr hole 
>spacing: 1" Holes dia: 3/16".  The links are Ni plate Cu.  If anyone needs 
>these links, I will sell them for the price of cooper.

What state are you in?


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[EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

I have approximately 1100 NiCad cells.  I purchased them about 10 years ago as 
military surplus.  They were used in helicopters.  The specifications are: Saft 
Model No. KO 14KH-B-1. 11 Amp-Hrs. Size: 2.25" W X 5.25" H, and 1" D.  If 
anyone needs these batteries and are willing to pay shipping, you can have 
them.  If not, I am shipping them to the recyclers next week.  In addition, I 
have the battery links.  Specifications: 1.5" L X 0.5 " W.  Ctr - Ctr hole 
spacing: 1" Holes dia: 3/16".  The links are Ni plate Cu.  If anyone needs 
these links, I will sell them for the price of cooper.


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[EVDL] Real time sale of EV in Norway

[ROBERT via EV]

This website shows in real time the sales of EVs in Norway.

https://elbilstatistikk.no/
[https://www.itanywhere.no/images/el-skilt.jpg]

elbilstatistikk.no - Registreringer av nye elbiler i 
Norge
Realtime stats for EV-registrations in Norway. Top this month: Nissan Leaf: 
with: 544 cars: Top this year: Nissan Leaf: with: 12174 cars: Top all time:
elbilstatistikk.no


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chrysler Portal e-minivan production (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

Thanks, I saw one in Phoenix about 8 years ago.  It had NiCd.  My memory is not 
decreasing.

From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 2:09 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chrysler Portal e-minivan production (v)

On 24 Sep 2018 at 18:15, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Sorry misspelling.  Chrysler not Crystal.

Got it, thanks.  I should have recognized that, and might have if I'd looked
at the subject line.  :-\

Presumably you're thinking of the TEVan (early 1990s) and the EPIC (mid-late
1990s).

Half the TEVans had 180ah Saft nickel cadmium batteries, the other half had
200ah Eagle-Picher nickel-iron batteries. Not many were sold, but some are
still running around.  Others were apparently scrapped, and now and then you
come across someone offering the NiCd or NiFe batteries from them for sale.

The EPIC had Saft NiMH batteries. Someone correct me if this is wrong, but I
think Saft was one of only 2 companies (Gold Peak was the other) that
grabbed licenses from Ovonic before Ovonic slammed the door on anyone making
NiMH modules big enough to use in real EVs, a license term that should have
been criminal.  Wikipedia says that some EPICs had lead batteries, but I've
never found corroboration for that.   I think the EPIC was only leased, not
sold. No idea where any of them are now. Probably in scrap yards.

Both were factory (EPTO, Electric Power Train Option) conversions of the
short wheelbase Dodge Caravan / Plymouth Voyager vans.

As a point of trivia, EPIC originally stood for Electric Powered INTRAurban
Commuter, NOT INTERurban Commuter, as is usually stated.  I remember reading
an article about the EPIC back in the mid-1990s that took pains to point out
the difference.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/intra-

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/inter-

Chrysler meant that it was an EV for use within the city, not between
cities, hence "intraurban."

But I guess the Chryser PR and advertising people didn't know the difference
between the words, or didn't care.  Presumably whomever coined the name
didn't bother to correct them, or couldn't, so it became "interurban."  But
now at least YOU know, in case you're a language geek too.  :-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chrysler Portal e-minivan production (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

Sorry misspelling.  Chrysler not Crystal.

From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chrysler Portal e-minivan production (v)

On 24 Sep 2018 at 14:34, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Didn't Crystal make an electric van in the 1990s?  I guess it has come full
> circle.

Crystal?  I remember a fair bit of the EV activity that took place in the
1990s, and I don't recall that one at all.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chrysler Portal e-minivan production (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

Didn't Crystal make an electric van in the 1990s?  I guess it has come full 
circle.


From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 11:07 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Chrysler Portal e-minivan production (v)



https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/chrysler-portal-ev-production-report/
Chrysler Portal electric minivan heading to production, report says
September 17, 2018  Andrew Krok

[images
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/chrysler-portal-a-concept-for-old-millennials-fca-ces-2017/
]

It could arrive in 2020, as the 300 sedan reportedly bids its final
farewell.

Chrysler

Chrysler debuted the wild Portal concept at CES 2017, and... then it sort of
fell by the wayside. But it could come roaring back as an honest-to-goodness
production model, if one report is to be believed.

The Chrysler Portal electric minivan will make its way to production in
2020, says Automotive News. The report is part of AN's far-reaching Future
Product Pipeline series, which relies on insider reports and other sources
to predict future products across the automotive industry. AN also predicts
that 2020 will be the year that the venerable Chrysler 300 sedan will also
disappear into the ether for good.

Chrysler did not immediately return a request for comment. That said,
automakers routinely decline to discuss future products, instead preferring
to release information on their own terms, whether that means teaser images
or waiting until the actual debut.

The Portal will reportedly head to production carrying the same name as the
concept, and like its concept sibling, AN says it will rely on a
battery-electric powertrain. If you're looking for specific figures, you'll
have to keep on waiting -- none of that will likely arrive until Chrysler
actually confirms its existence.

When it first debuted at CES 2017, the Chrysler Portal made waves. Sporting
an aggressive minivan shape that was a far cry from the production version
of the Pacifica minivan, the Portal hoped to capture the attention of
Millennials with its focus on next-gen tech. It packed
vehicle-to-infrastructure and vehicle-to-vehicle communications, promised
SAE Level 3 autonomy and had some killer screens on the inside. It even
relied on face recognition to determine who was driving the car, tailoring
the vehicle's settings to suit that specific person.
[© cnet.com  CBS Interactive]
...
https://www.fcagroup.com/en-US/media_center/insights/Pages/chrysler_portal_concept.aspx
fca portal_concept
https://www.fcagroup.com/it-IT/media_center/insights/FiatGallery/FCA_Chrysler_Portal_concept_003.jpg


https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/18/chrysler-schedules-portal-electric-minivan-for-production/
Chrysler Schedules Portal Electric Minivan For 2020 Production
September 18th, 2018  The Chrysler Portal concept is designed to respond to
these needs and it explores the possibility of what a family transportation
vehicle could look like for the ...
https://youtu.be/Bc-bDMoN6zo


+
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/18/chrysler-schedules-portal-electric-minivan-for-production/
Electric Driving in an Oil State
September 18th, 2018  Typically, electric cars are more expensive than your
standard internal combustion vehicle, especially when you compare the
features and niceties inside ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Recycling: used LiOn CALB batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

I talked with Battery Recyclers of America.  Their minimum battery pickup is 
1000 Lb.  However, they do take all type of batteries if you have 1000 lb.


From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 12:21 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] Recycling: used LiOn CALB batteries

>find a way to dispose/donate/sell them<

https://www.batteryrecyclersofamerica.com/contact/

https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+ion+batteries+recycle


% Yes, Virginia (or in this case, MarkA), li-ion batteries are recycled %




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[ROBERT via EV]

The problem with Tesla's batteries is not small vs large but Tesla has put all 
their eggs into one type of battery.  The other automotive companies are 
staying out of the battery business so that they can buy the best batteries 
available and not spend money on development.  Vertical business development is 
not always the best model.  At present, do what you do best and assemble a 
final product and buy from numerous suppliers is the current business model for 
the big automotive companies.



From: EV  on behalf of Jan Steinman via EV 

Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 10:02 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jan Steinman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

> From: Jukka J?rvinen 
>
> The main question is when will the problems be there? After 200.000 or
> 500.000 miles?... we have just now
> mastered the solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene production. I
> see now 500Wh/kg, >15 year lifetime

I see someone arguing both sides of a fallacious argument.

How can you criticize one manufacturer for unknown future problems who uses 
known technology, while lauding unknown technology for a long lifetime that 
none of it has even passed through?

We have all sorts of empirical evidence with small cells. MTBF behaviour is 
well characterized. But there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for "15 year 
lifetime" of "solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene" cells.

Personally, I prefer nickel-iron cells. But I'm an outlier. :-)

Jan


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: diy Selby 6whl 24V ts:8mph> (free-range pork-sausage) (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

Why not put a blade on it and mow the lawn at the same time.  That is funny.



From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Friday, August 31, 2018 12:11 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: diy Selby 6whl 24V ts:8mph> (free-range pork-sausage) (v)



https://hackaday.com/2018/08/25/the-electric-vehicles-of-electromagnetic-field-the-selby/
The Electric Vehicles Of Electromagnetic FIeld: The Selby
August 25, 2018  Jenny List

[images
https://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/the-selby-featured.jpg

https://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/hacky-racer-profiles_-the-selby-by-michael-west-0-50-screenshot.png
View of motors fed with 24 V driving the rear wheels
(two 12V group 24 PbSO4 sealed batteries)


videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3slBr4n9g8
Hacky Racer Profiles: The Selby by Michael West
Mark Mellors  Aug 16, 2018

https://youtu.be/O3slBr4n9g8
Hacky Racer Profiles: The Selby by Michael West
]

A couple of weekends ago on a farm in rural England with a cider orchard and
a very good line in free-range pork sausages, there was the first
get-together of the nascent British Hacky Racers series of competitions for
comedic small electric vehicles. At the event, (Mark Mellors) shot a set of
video interviews with each of the attendees asking them to describe their
vehicles in detail, and we’d like to present the first of them here.

The Selby is unique among all the Hacky Racers in being a six-wheeler. It’s
the creation of (Michael West) of MK Makerspace, and it bears a curious
resemblance to a pair of PowaKaddy golf buggies grafted together. The
resulting vehicle has four driven wheels and two steering wheels, and though
it is hardly a speedy machine this extra drive gives it what is probably the
most hefty pulling power of all the contestants. In the video below it
appears without bodywork, but we are told that something impressive will sit
upon it when it appears at Electromagnetic Field.

I should own up, that the Selby is a familiar to Hackaday, as I’m also an MK
Makerspace member. I’ve seen it progress from two worn-out golf trolleys to
its current state, and seen first hand some of the engineering challenges
that has presented. The PowaKaddy buggies of that vintage are extremely
well-engineered, with a Curtis controller that is still comfortably within
spec even when driving four motors instead of two. Unusually for a Hacky
Racer the power comes from a pair of huge lead-acid batteries, as these were
the power source supplied with the PowaKaddy from new and it made little
sense to change them. Gearing is fixed at golf-course speeds, and braking
comes from a pair of brakes fitted on the motors. The motors themselves are
simple DC affairs, with significant weatherproofing.

Cutting and shutting the two PowaKaddys was straightforward enough, but
introduced a warp to the chassis that was solved by your Hackaday scribe
hanging on the end of a lever formed from a long piece of 4-by-2 while
(Mike) and friends stood on the other end of the Selby.

As a driving experience it’s exciting enough but lacks the speed of some of
its competitors. Where it really comes into its own though is off-road, as
the multi-wheel drive and broad treaded tyres power it across mud and offer
powersliding opportunities on wet grass.

We’ve covered a couple of Hacky Racers so far in our mini-series on the
Electric Vehicles of Electromagnetic Field, and we’ll bring you a few more
before the event. Meanwhile feast your eyes on a Sinclair C5, and an Austin
7 inspired mobility scooter conversion.
[© hackaday.com]


+
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a22790905/the-raider-is-an-offroad-scooter-for-soldiers/
The 'Raider' Is an Offroad Scooter for Soldiers
Aug 21, 2018
279  HD4 weighs 250 pounds and can carry 462 pounds or two fully equipped
soldiers. Two 1200 watt electric motors drive the EZRaider to speeds of up
43 miles an hour, and a 60 volt, 3000 watt hour battery allows it to travel
up to 24 miles on a single charge ...
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/screen-shot-2018-08-21-at-11-16-11-am-1534875411.png




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] Good article on batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/26/the-secret-life-of-an-ev-battery/

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Re: [EVDL] Testing batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

Lee, you may be close to a low cost solution.  I need to look at the design and 
a modification.  Thanks, Bob.


From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 10:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Testing batteries

ROBERT via EV wrote:
> If someone wanted to test 300 - 400 NICAD or NIMH cells for capacity, how can 
> it be done efficiently?  I do not want to take 6 months charging and 
> discharging one cell at a time.  The purpose of the testing is to match cells 
> so as to build a large battery. Any tester I can buy to speed up the process?

I use my Battery Balancer for this <http://sunrise-ev.com/balancer.htm>.
You can program it to test up to 80 cells or batteries sequentially. It
can measure voltage and current, and control a charger and load bank.
For example, have the program:

- charge each cell to a defined "full" voltage and current
- then load it with a defined load
- measure the time to a defined "empty" voltage
- record the amphours
- recharge the cell back to "full"
- step to the next cell or battery

I'm using one now to test a set of CALB cells. I only bothered to
connect one relay board, so it tests a group of 8 cells. Then I offload
the data, and re-connect it to the next batch of 8 cells.

The Balancer ins't really a commercial "turn-key" product: It's just
something I built because I couldn't find anything affordable that did
what I want. But I do have bare and assembled boards, and sell them on a
one-off basis as needed.
--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com<http://www.sunrise-ev.com>
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Re: [EVDL] Testing batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

You are correct.  The price is too high.  For 7K, I could buy 10 power supplies 
to charge 10 batteries and 10 battery testers like the Revolectrix Power Lab 8 
@ $330 each.


From: EV  on behalf of Jim Walls via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 9:05 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jim Walls
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Testing batteries

On 8/15/2018 5:32 PM, ROBERT via EV wrote:
> If someone wanted to test 300 - 400 NICAD or NIMH cells for capacity, how can 
> it be done efficiently?  I do not want to take 6 months charging and 
> discharging one cell at a time.  The purpose of the testing is to match cells 
> so as to build a large battery. Any tester I can buy to speed up the process?

Yea, but you won't like the price.  We have a battery tester from
Midtronics at work that could test conductance (which accurately relates
to capacity) of 400 cells in a couple hours.  At least when we bought it
about decade ago, the cost was something like $7K.

We use it for testing 48 volt stationary battery plants such as this one:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwIdhkNRMTaRdnp3U0hNT0xrR2s/view?usp=sharing
BTW, that's 3,600 AH at 48 volts

--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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[EVDL] Testing batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

If someone wanted to test 300 - 400 NICAD or NIMH cells for capacity, how can 
it be done efficiently?  I do not want to take 6 months charging and 
discharging one cell at a time.  The purpose of the testing is to match cells 
so as to build a large battery. Any tester I can buy to speed up the process?




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla patents make packs safer in a fire

[ROBERT via EV]

Interesting about the gas build up during a cell failure.  Flooded NiCAD have a 
pressure relief device that reliefs at 10 PSI.  In addition, the battery boxes 
have inlet and outlet vents for air circulation.

From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 9:53 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla patents make packs safer in a fire



https://electrek.co/2018/08/03/tesla-patents-new-battery-packs-safer-fire/
Tesla patents new ways to make battery packs safer in case of a fire
Aug. 3rd 2018  Fred Lambert

[images
https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/10/screen-shot-2017-10-18-at-1-46-41-pm-e1508351385743.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-03-at-10.31.36-AM-e1533307061947.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-08-03 at 10.31.36 AM
from the patent application

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-03-at-10.32.00-AM-e1533307068475.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-08-03 at 10.32.00 AM

https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-03-at-10.32.24-AM-e1533307075337.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-08-03 at 10.32.24 AM

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/1-a70fb9e95a.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/3-d75ed082fa.jpg

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/4-42d2b5dd29.jpg

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/5-d810b75b73.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/6-f8da30c5ad.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/7-0e23ffb6c7.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/8-8da26b9b4a.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/9-6014606674.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/96e4s76hhc6iefyx/images/10-495ebc828f.jpg
+more
]

While battery fires involving Tesla vehicles are often reported in the
media, they are statistically quite rare in comparison to gas-powered car
fires. Therefore, if it’s not something you worry about in gas-powered cars,
it shouldn’t be something you worry about in Tesla vehicles or most other
electric vehicles for that matter.

But it doesn’t mean that there is no room for improvement in making battery
packs safer and more resistant to fire.

Tesla has recently patented two new inventions to do just that.

The automaker submitted two patent applications that have recently been
released.

The patents have to do with managing the release of gas when battery cells
fail inside a battery module and a new way to more efficiently terminate a
battery pack fire.

The problem with battery fires is that when one or more cells fail and catch
on fire, it releases a significant amount of energy which can result in
nearby cells also catching on fire.

With sometimes thousands of cells in a battery pack, this can create a
significant chain reaction that can last for hours.

The good news is that it most often, aside from in the most extreme cases,
leaves enough time for the driver and passenger to exit the vehicle.

But if you could vent internally generated gases from a cell that is
failing, you could potentially prevent others from catching on fire.

At the battery module level, Tesla is patenting a new design with weak
points between cells made to break in case of a cell failure and release the
gas.

Here’s the full patent application for the battery module:

At the battery pack level, if all fails and it has caught on fire, it is
very difficult for firefighters to address the situation. They have to apply
a great amount of water and even then, they will have to monitor the pack
for hours and even days.

One of the issues is that Tesla’s battery packs are designed to be sealed
and not let water or any fluid inside for obvious reasons since it is
installed in the floor of the vehicle.

But Tesla is patenting a way to inject a “thermal-control liquid” inside the
pack during a fire:

“A battery pack has an enclosure that contains a plurality of batteries
and conductors and that resists the flow of fluid between an interior of the
enclosure and an exterior of the enclosure. An exit vent formed in the
enclosure at a first location allows exhaust gas to flow from the interior
of the enclosure to the exterior of the enclosure. A fill port formed in the
enclosure at a second location, in an impermeable state, prevent ingress of
fluid from an exterior of the enclosure to an interior of the disclosure.
The fill port, in a permeable state achieved by receipt of a perforation
tool there through, permits ingress of a sufficient amount of a
thermal-control liquid into the enclosure through the fill port to terminate
a runaway thermal event in the battery pack. A fill port coupler having a
passageway and an externally accessible port may be included.”

The solution could make it a lot easier for first responders to address a
fire in a Tesla 

Re: [EVDL] Electric Noise and using capacitors to fix it

[ROBERT via EV]

Good question.  I would like to know the answer "what is the rule of thumb for 
the size of capacitors to get rid of noise on these lines".  Been wondering 
about this for a long time.


From: EV  on behalf of Steve Clunn via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:59 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Steve Clunn
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Noise and using capacitors to fix it

I'm having some problems with a conversion with 7 Tesla modules 42 cells.
When giving the car a little go pedal the BMS starts to flicker off and on
even though the cell voltage is not dipping. I put some .47 UF capacitors
between the frame and the battery packs at different points. Some seem to
help but I'm still got one BMS that is triggering on its own. Done the wire
moving around so they're not near the cables but that didn't seem to help
much. I'm wondering if I'm using two larger capacitor what is the rule of
thumb for the size of capacitors to get rid of noise on these lines. Any
help would be appreciated. Steve clunn
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Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

[ROBERT via EV]

I also have a GE unit.  I installed the unit last September.  I installed an 
energy monitor and have been tracking the KW-Hrs usage.  It is a very efficient 
unit and I am happy with the unit.  However, the GE unit has a poor rating.  
The first units were made in KY.  The next series were made in China thus the 
poor rating.  My is installed in my garage and I run only in e-mode.  I 
investigated the hybrid units for our new house.  The AO Smith unit is a little 
more efficient; however, it does not have a high rating and the tank only has a 
10 yr warranty.  Electrolux unit has a stainless steel tank and a 12 year 
warranty.  However, I am not sure it is in production.


From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 

Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 12:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

I love mine.  It is quiet a little more than a refrigerator but nothing at
all like a windw AC unit for noise.  What I love about it is the
serendipitous dehumidifying.  My basement has always been a place of doom
and mold and wetness.  I was too cheap to run a dehumidifier (basically a
year round AC unit going nowhwere)...  Now I get that function for free
while also heating hot water at 1/3rd the energy.

But, my wife is very picky.  So I run it in hybrid mode.  That is, the
heatpump heats from the bottom of the tank upwards to 100 F (where it is
most efficient) and then I set the top of the water heater to 120F which
is done by electric.   So, with incoming water at 60F, then the first 40
degrees is done ver efficiently maybe for 1/3rd the normal cost and the
top 1/4th of the tank is raised another 20F to satisfy my wife.

Donno how long it takes after full depletion.  Never happens now that the
kids are gone.  Oh, and the heat pumped out of the basement is simply not
noticed.  I even call this a "ground source" water heatpump, because the
basement is half concrete with normal floors and the other half is
crawlspace over dirt.  SO aany/all heat in the basement comes from the
ground or waste heat from occasional laundry, yet the temperature in the
basement never seems to get cold.  Even though the heatpump water heater
is taking heat out of it.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 11:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

Mark,

I've been considering a heat pump HW tank. My current tank is close to
20 years old and probably will need replacing soon. Two big concerns I
have are
- how long is the heat pump mechanism warrantied?
- how noisy is it?
A third question is how long does it take to get hot enough for a shower,
if depleted? Assume 50F cold water.

In our case, the garage, where we have the HW tank, is under our living
space and very close to our master bedroom. I don't want to hear humming
through the floor.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: leeah...@earthlink.net
Cc: "Mark Hanson" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 28-Jul-18 8:23:13 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

>Hi Lee etc
>I have a GE GeoSpring "heat pump" hot water heater that uses 600w
>instead of 4500w resulting in about 1/4 the monthly kWh usage for the
>same btu h20 heating and dehumidifies the basement. It's used in any
>climate as long as your underground basement is 12x12 or larger.  GE
>etc just takes their refrigerator compressors and puts them in
>backwards so it's really not a heat pump, just marketing speak for
>consumers. You have to hook up the pee line like on your a AC unit
>outside or use a condensate pump. Typically a 3 year payback.  AO Smith
>and Siebel etc make also.
>Have a renewable energy day
>Mark
>
>Sent from my iPhone
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>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

[ROBERT via EV]

I usually do not comment on energy use posting because this is an ev blog.  
However, if you want to save energy in a house, buy a hybrid hot water heater.  
They cost $1800 - $2000; but they are worth the money.  They have a 20 yr 
warranty on the tank.  The average HW heater has a 8 - 10 yr warranty and 
little insulation (fast heat loss). I purchase a used one made by GE off of 
craigslist for $200. I installed an energy monitor with a totalize for KW-Hrs.  
My pay back is less than one year because I replaced a builder grade propane HW 
heater.  It beats LED lighting any day. I also use LED lights.




From: EV  on behalf of Matt Awesome via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 11:08 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matt Awesome
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

> Remember this factoid.

I'm all for saving energy and obviously I'm here so I'm passionate
about EV use, but, it's also important to me to not treat this like
some kind of religion.

> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to LEDs saves
> the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the American 40 mile average
> per day forever.

Plainly, no, it won't.

> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.

Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?

I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave
them all on 5 hours a day.

Anyone with that many fixtures is putting 40w bulbs into them. And
LEDs aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.

Let's try to get some more realistic numbers.

How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:
Source 1: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97=3 -
Independent US Energy & Information Statistics says ~10,000kwh/year.
That's 27kwh/day.
Source 2: 
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Energy/Electricity/Consumption-by-households-per-capita#2005
- Around half that.

What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?:
Source 3: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=96=3 - 9%.
Source 4: 
https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-energy-consumption-is-from-lighting-in-a-typical-American-house
- 6%.

The split seems to vary depending on whether heat is made through gas
or electricity. Meaning the lower percentage use numbers for lighting
are from houses that use 2x as much electricity (for heat). If they're
not making heat electrically, their lighting percentage is higher (but
the same net total).

So, we could say 27kwh/day of which lighting is 6% or 15kwh/day of
which lighting is 9% to at least be in the right ballpark (this
argument is about general scale, not really precision).

What is the average lighting demand for a US household?:
- 27kwh*6% = 1.62kwh/day.
- 15kwh*9% = 1.35kwh/day.

Somewhere around 1500 watt-hours a day.

You're claiming 10x that amount in *savings* from switching to LED,
let alone total lighting use.

> Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.

Since it's not the 1970s, the average household has at least 2
vehicles, more when there's teenagers/college kids.

So... your "factoid" for a household is now off by a factor of 20x.

Add in that LEDs aren't free, you're off by a factor of 25x.

It would be more accurate to say that by switching from incandescents
to LEDs, you could expect to save enough energy to cover 4% of your
electric vehicle use. A pretty banal, unsensational, non-headlight
grabbing rhetoric for sure, but at least an accurate one.

You can nitpick those numbers a bit, they might be off by, oh, perhaps
double, but they're not off by an order of magnitude.
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ...

[ROBERT via EV]

The other advance that made LED lighting possible was low cost PWM LED drivers 
on a chip or with few components.  Even today an LED cannot take a continuous 
high current.

From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 2:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water; brucedp5
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ...

Bruce,
If you ever saw the old LEDs, I received one from my dad in the early 80s and 
while their life is astonishing, they will run for decades and still work, they 
are no comparison to modern LEDs for 2 major reasons:
- There was no white. LEDs came in red, yellow, green and that was pretty much 
it. At some point someone figured out a way to make blue and it took until the 
beginning of this millennium before white LEDs became generally available, made 
from a very shortwave LED illuminating a white phosphor which released the 
white light. The amount of light delivered was not very high in any of these, 
which is the second reason:
- Efficiency. While TL and CFL (fluorescent) bulbs were several times more 
efficient than incandescents, the LEDs were great as indicator lights but 
horrible as light source due to their low light output. Over time that has 
improved to the point that there are now LEDs that you must not drive with more 
than 1mA if you want people to look at them directly, because they are so 
blindingly bright. That is why a 10 Watt LED can comfortably replace a 60 – 
100W incandescent lamp and even provide much the same soft warm light profile 
so a casual observer is unable to distinguish between the two used side by 
side, except for the waste heat produced by the incandescent.
Regards,
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 2:28 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ...


[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Charging-load-on-the-grid-NOT-tp4690636.html
]

% Here's a link to help/support what Lawrence posted about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_lamp
A LED lamp or LED light bulb is an electric light for use in light fixtures
that produces light using light-emitting diode (LED). ... As of 2016, LEDs
use only about 10% of the energy an incandescent lamp requires ...


[some brucedp history] ... after finishing my Vietnam era 70-74 military
requirement and was 'back in the world'
https://www.google.com/search?q=vietnam+back+in+the+world
 (U.S.A.), leds were not (but should have been) well marketed for use as
lighting. Old school thinking still touted using more (up-front) expensive
flouresent lighting to save electricity costs over (ancient-tech)
incandescents. I had a hard time understanding that when leds were (as
Lawrence mentioned) so much more energy efficient. But then back then, I
also had a hard time breathing the raw gasoline fumes as ice drove by, and
the lack of vapor controls at gas pumps.

[fast-forward 4 decades] ... as I previously posted, I am making efforts to
relocate closer to the San Antonio (SA), TX VA (Veterans) Hospital facility
(VA sez I can't get assigned there until I have a SA mailing address - think
old school government/military paper metrics). Until then, I am running back
and forth between where I have been staying since the beginning of the year
(near the Temple, TX VA Hospital) and going hours south to work with a SA
Realtor.

The owners of the place I am staying at have been kind to me. Locals wonder
why I am paying twice as much for a room at this business rather than at an
apt at half the cost (and a 1yr long lease). But it seems my continuous
monthly stay is funding repairs and upgrades for the owners ...

When the 4ft dual tube flouresent ceiling light fixture
https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/29538/PLAS-1LT1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI54O_ooG73AIVAqrsCh2RgAF3EAkYAyABEgIubvD_BwE
 in my room started flickering, the owner replaced it with a 1ft x 1ft 12W
led ceiling panel
https://www.ebay.com/itm/64W-42W-36W-18W-LED-Troffer-Panel-Light-Recessed-Dropped-Ceiling-Down-Fixture-US/163163165493
 The owner also replaced some of their outdoor florescent lighting with
these led panels. They are bright, cost effective, and will have a much
longer life.


Below are links to newswire items. The 1st is how off peak charging lets UK
EV charging use the existing grid (hopefully they will still be planning
grid upgrades over time).  The 2nd is how EV ignorant IL media says L2
charging will blow up existing pole transformers (don't you just love their
stoopid statements that are really just their opinions?). And 3rd,once
again north-western European countries are showing the way to be green by
reducing ice-generator use to power festivals:  %



https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2018/07/25/ofgem-to-incentivise-ev-owners-to-charge-off-peak
Ofgem to incentivise EV owners to charge off-peak
25/07/2018   -10 hours 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Elaphe In-wheel EV.si> simplicity, efficiency, hi-torque

[ROBERT via EV]

Easy, check their website.  They having nothing for sale.  They are only in the 
development stage.




From: EV  on behalf of Peri Hartman via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:40 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Elaphe In-wheel EV.si> simplicity, efficiency, 
hi-torque

So, how did they deal with unsprung weight? I suppose, up to a point,
stiffer springs and shocks would help. At some point, they would just
add too much bounce to the car as a whole, though. Maybe their motor is
light enough that the added battery weight compensated just enough to
make stiffer springs work. Would be interesting to know.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 27-Jun-18 9:33:09 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Elaphe In-wheel EV.si> simplicity, efficiency,
hi-torque

>
>
>https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/elaphe-high-torque-in-wheel-electric-motors/
[https://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-platform-2-1200x630-c-ar1.91.jpg]

Slovenian startup’s electric motor design signals advance for self-driving 
cars
www.digitaltrends.com
Building on its 15 years of experience with high-torque in-wheel electric 
motors, Slovenia-based Elaphe has developed modular platforms for autonomous 
vehicles. The Elaphe platform uses electric motors in all four wheels, 
producing massive power for acceleration and torque-vectoring control.


>Slovenian startup’s electric motor design signals advance for
>self-driving
>cars
>6.19.18  Bruce Brown
>
>[images
>https://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-in-wheel-powertrain-1-640x427-c.jpg
>
>https://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-m700-in-wheel-motor-4-640x427-c.jpg
>Elaphe in-wheel electric motor
>
>https://icdn5.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-in-wheel-pcu-powertrain-640x427-c.jpg
>
>https://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-in-wheel-m1100-motor-640x427-c.jpg
>
>https://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-m700-in-wheel-motor-640x427-c.jpg
>
>https://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-ev-platform-720x720.jpg
>Elaphe In-wheel EV platform
>
>https://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-propulsion-technologies-dashboard-640x427-c.jpg
>Elaphe Propulsion Technologies dashboard
>
>https://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-propulsion-technologies-powertrain-640x427-c.jpg
>Elaphe Propulsion Technologies Powertrain
>
>https://icdn5.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-propulsion-technology-battery-packs-640x427-c.jpg
>Elaphe Propulsion Technology battery packs
>
>https://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-propulsion-technologies-inverters-640x427-c.jpg
>
>https://icdn5.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-propulsion-technologies-bablefish-640x427-c.jpg
>
>https://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-propulsion-technologies-hv-connection-box-640x427-c.jpg
>
>https://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/elaphe-propulsion-technologies-pcu-640x427-c.jpg
>
>
>video
>https://youtu.be/LlzDE-0TMrU
>Putting in-wheel toughness to the test in the dead of winter ...
>]
>
>Elaphe Propulsion Technologies [
>http://in-wheel.com/
>] recently introduced modular platforms for autonomous vehicles. The
>Slovenia-based company has manufactured electric in-wheel propulsion
>systems
>since 2003.
>
>Maros Sefcovic, vice president of the European Commission’s Energy
>Union,
>praised Elaphe’s propulsion design platform for its simplicity,
>efficiency,
>and high-torque performance.  Sefcovic called the Elaphe design the
>“platform for the next generation of mobility.”
>
>Elaphe’s 15-year focus on highly efficient, ultra-low weight,
>electromagnetic in-wheel motors led to two developments significant
>today:
>creative torque-vectoring solutions and a modular, plug-and-play
>platform
>for autonomous vehicles.
>
>Torque vectoring technology varies the amount of power between wheels
>in
>two-wheel drive and four-wheel drive vehicles. Originally used in race
>cars,
>torque vectoring helps acceleration and handling by improving traction.
>Electronic controllers in each wheel work in concert to apply power
>where it
>does the most good. Unless you are intentionally drifting a car, for
>example, the goal with torque vectoring is to keep the car under
>control, on
>the road, and traveling in the desired direction with the least tire
>slippage possible.
>
>Electric cars such as Tesla’s Model S accelerate extraordinarily
>quickly
>because electric motors produce maximum torque from a standstill.
>Internal
>combustion engines (ICEs) need to rev up to reach maximum torque.
>Because
>there’s no wait for torque buildup with EVs, electric car designers can
>take
>greater advantage of torque-vectoring than with ICE-powered vehicles.
>
>Elaphe builds electric motors in each wheel, complete with independent
>cooling systems. With four motors, 

[EVDL] Best Batteries for a Solar System

[ROBERT via EV]

I received this article from Wholesale Solar.  It is informative as long as you 
remember it is from a solar seller.


https://www.wholesalesolar.com/blog/best-solar-batteries/?utm_campaign=The%20Monthly%20Promotion_source=hs_email_medium=email_content=64044288&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9IM0PBq8CKc9hWq8xOm3DQOoIoFoKW1d3Qt3mAkPz5igKTNG4hnG5gGowLGr9JHVzWRYV18Laek_gMbIiKZcp_cnfzWg&_hsmi=64044288

[https://www.wholesalesolar.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/best-solar-batteries.jpg]

What are the Best Solar 
Batteries?
www.wholesalesolar.com
See our picks for the best batteries for use with a wide variety of solar 
applications.



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Re: [EVDL] buying Volt modules, etc, Advice on new battery pack

[ROBERT via EV]

John, did you use the Leaf BMS and Battery Charger with the Leaf battery pack?




From: EV  on behalf of jerry freedomev via EV 

Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 11:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: jerry freedomev
Subject: Re: [EVDL] buying Volt modules, etc, Advice on new battery pack


Hi John and All,I get mine for less than that at local junk yards.  
You may have to deal some.  When they are too high I just let them sit on it 
until they meet my price.  You shouldn't  pay over $1600/pack, less in fact.
   Most all will give you a 15% discount at the counter just by asking. 
 And their asking price is a wish in most cases.  As they are 
harder to deal with only a few EV people are buying them and a lot of them have 
crashed and crashing as we post, they likely will stay plentiful and cheap, the 
lowest price EV modules. They are only good in 48vdc multiples 
though 120vdc and 162vdc  nom are possible.That they happily 
put out 300kw/pack , 1k amps isn't bad either and why racers like them even 
with the weight penalty.I've sold for 5 different EVs, 3 lead 
conversions and 2 custom besides my own lightweight EVs here in Florida to 
others out of state at $150/kwh, well  below the price of premium 
 lead.Unlikely  I'll ever go back to lead.   Just 
got my second module, 8kwh total,  in my trike subcar chassis is working out 
nicely but wthr/mile is high around 120wthr/mile which I expected it to be more 
like 80wthr/mile.   Hopefully the aero body I'm cutting out now 
will help.  And maybe it is the Contactor controller as now having a Wthr meter 
on it, it takes a lot more power than a Curtis controller on my other EV trike 
pickup.  I was really hoping on 80wthr/mile. So next is robbing 
the Curtis from the older trike.   It'll be rebuilt as a fast long distance 
subcar for towing a matching lightweight aero trailer.My 
big hold up is getting longer front brake lines so I can move the handlebars, 
seat   back I need to do before I can put the body on.  Now I have the range to 
go find them with the second module in place.  ;^) Jerry Dycus

  From: John Lussmyer via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: John Lussmyer 
 Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 10:36 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Advice on new battery pack

On Fri Jun 22 21:57:41 PDT 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>You can get 16kw worth of Volt packs for under $2k without shopping
>around much or lucking out.

Where?


--

Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
My Pets | John Lussmyer
john.casadelgato.com
These are all my Pets. I have an unusual assortment of Animals. In fact, so 
unusual that I am USDA licensed so that I can exhibit them, and bring tours and 
groups in to see them.



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Re: [EVDL] Juicebox

[ROBERT via EV]

Cor van de Water, after you installed the xfmr, where did you get the ground?



From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 5:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox

Paul,
I will ask around about this.
I had a similar problem (not JuiceBox related) where my US Electricar S10 had 
internal GFCI detection on the incoming AC line.
It usually worked on 110V and it probably also should work on a residential 
240V which is 2 balanced 120V legs, but the place where I wanted to charge at 
240V had only commercial 480V 3-phase available anywhere near the parking lot. 
So, I took one leg of that (277V) which was powering the light in the parking 
lot on a timer, and I attached a step-down transformer which was an industrial 
dry type transformer that used to have 240V primary and about 36V secondary. I 
put the two in series and connected that to the 277V, giving me a 36V step down 
(auto-transformer) to 240V.
Since the transformer only sees the difference between input and output and the 
truck never draws more than approx. 3kW (13A typically) the transformer never 
saw more than ½ kVA.

However, what I discovered was that on this single phase 240V power, the 
truck’s GFCI would always trigger, while on 110v it would only occasionally 
pop. So, I disabled the built-in GFCI. Why can toasters and RVs be plugged in 
without GFCI and our super-protected EVs struggle with hair-trigger GFCI that 
disables charging at inconvenient times?
Anyway, while disabling the GFCI may not be your preferred solution and I will 
try to find out what can be done – it would be my own preferred solution…
BTW, I did charge Lawrence’s 2016 Leaf with 30kWh battery on my JuiceBox 
without trouble. I had forgotten to adjust the pilot, so it pulled full power 
(32A = 7.7kW) for over an hour on my NEMA 14-30 circuit – indeed slightly 
overloading the 10 gauge wiring, but it survived. As far as I know, the GFCI is 
original in my JuiceBox.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Paul Wallace via EV
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 1:40 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Paul Wallace
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Juicebox

Cor,
finally, someone with some background with the Juicebox Classic silver case 
unit. I've got a Juicebox classic 40A on a 50amp outlet which should put out 
enough power for my PFC40 charger. It works fine with both the 2017 Volt and 
the 2015 Spark, but they can only manage around 3.3kw. The problem comes when I 
plug in my S10 with the PFC40. If I turn up the charger power past about 4kw or 
so, the Juicebox works for a while, 10 to 15 minutes, but then faults with a 
GFCI error. I managed to find an old build document online for the kit which 
explains how to monitor the serial stream and also put a volt meter on the GFCI 
sense pin to the microcontroller and watch the offset voltage. I think that the 
Juicebox is a factory version as the GFCI transformer has a glob of white RTV 
fixing the 240VAC input wires in what should be the best position for 
minimizing the offset voltage. Everything starts out relatively good. The 
offset voltage is in the 50mv range as I remember. After about 5 minutes
 , the offset begins to increase while charging current remains steady. Once 
the offset voltage gets up to around 200mv, the fault occurs.

Is there anything I can do to improve the offset voltage so this doesn't 
happen? I'd like to be able to use the full power of the Juicebox since the 
PFC40 will handle it.

thanks,
Paul Wallace
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[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png]
 Virus-free. 
www.avg.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Sion Power’s Licerion Li-Battery for e-plane Aviation (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

If you want to find out about Scion Power, look at it's history.  It used to be 
called Moltech Power Systems.  It has been in Tucson for over 20 years doing 
battery research.  Just another in a string of miracle battery claims.  Also, 
do a patent search.



From: EV  on behalf of Alan Arrison via EV 

Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 1:49 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Alan Arrison
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Sion Power’s Licerion Li-Battery for e-plane Aviation 
(v)

Double sigh, another miracle battery.

:-/


On 4/8/2018 1:12 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/02/is-sion-powers-licerion-lithium-battery-what-the-electric-aviation-world-has-been-waiting-for/
[https://cleantechnica.com/files/2018/04/Sion-Power-Licerion-rechargeable-lithium.jpg]

Is Sion Power’s Licerion Lithium Battery What The Electric 
...
cleantechnica.com
It sounds as if the electric aviation news industry has somewhat tapered down, 
giving a chance for other competing electric mobility industries to make it 
into the limelight. But that doesn’t mean that the electric aviation industry 
is sitting idly either. In fact, Sion Power just announced a ...


> Is Sion Power’s Licerion Lithium Battery What The Electric Aviation World
> Has Been Waiting For?
> April 2nd, 2018  Nicolas Zart
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Silicon Mobility and 30% Efficiency Increase

[ROBERT via EV]

I agree.  I read the paper and I do not see anything new except a single chip 
solution.  Also, I looked at their software library description and I see the 
standard routines for vector motor control.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 1:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silicon Mobility and 30% Efficiency Increase

Robert,
Maybe it is because I do not come from a typical car background,
but frankly there is nothing new in this article as far as I can see,
for decades I have been used to design control systems with enough
hardware support so that the real-time generation of fast hardware
signals
and the capture of input signals is offloaded to dedicated hardware, so
the
control software can focus on what it was designed to do, the overall
control
of the system and not spend most its time spinning in a loop to generate
a
specific hardware signal.
Even my daily driver 1994 US Electricar has a combination of a control
processor and a DSP
to generate the high speed PWM signals for the motor inverter, charger
and DC/DC.
Granted, that old design uses 2 separate chips to achieve what this
company
proposes in a single processor, but I do not see how this can be
considered
revolutionary in the car industry or how it can achieve up to 30%
efficiency
improvement. The whitepaper does not show it.
So, until I get *data* that shows otherwise, I still consider this
company
in a PR effort to get new funding/customers and to do that, they make
claims
that seem to stretch the truth
Kind regards,
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:46 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: [EVDL] Silicon Mobility and 30% Efficiency Increase

Recently numerous negative comments were made concerning Silicon
Mobility claim to improve inverter efficiency by 30% by use of their
chip OLEA T22-1005.  Their claim is based on a white paper that is
available on their website.  The link is:
http://www.silicon-mobility.com/silicon-mobility/wp-content/uploads/2017
/11/EVS30_Solving-Hybrid-Electric-powertrain-software-bottelneck.pdf.
It is interesting reading.


EVS30 Symposium Stuttgart, Germany, October 9 - 11, 2017
...<http://www.silicon-mobility.com/silicon-mobility/wp-content/uploads/
2017/11/EVS30_Solving-Hybrid-Electric-powertrain-software-bottelneck.pdf
>
www.silicon-mobility.com<http://www.silicon-mobility.com>
EVS30 International Battery, Hybrid and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle
Symposium 1 EVS30 Symposium Stuttgart, Germany, October 9 - 11, 2017


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[EVDL] Silicon Mobility and 30% Efficiency Increase

[ROBERT via EV]

Recently numerous negative comments were made concerning Silicon Mobility claim 
to improve inverter efficiency by 30% by use of their chip OLEA T22-1005.  
Their claim is based on a white paper that is available on their website.  The 
link is: 
http://www.silicon-mobility.com/silicon-mobility/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/EVS30_Solving-Hybrid-Electric-powertrain-software-bottelneck.pdf.
  It is interesting reading.


EVS30 Symposium Stuttgart, Germany, October 9 - 11, 2017 
...
www.silicon-mobility.com
EVS30 International Battery, Hybrid and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle Symposium 1 
EVS30 Symposium Stuttgart, Germany, October 9 - 11, 2017


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[EVDL] Lower battery cost

[ROBERT via EV]

Listen to the Q session.  Matthias Mueller, VW Group CEO, states they have 
entered into a contract price for batteries at 100 Euros per kWhr. At the 
current exchange rate this is US $124 per kWHr.


https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/events/2018/JPK2018.html

[https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/news/2017/09/K_Konzern-Flagge-20170510KN217.jpg]

Annual Media Conference 2018 - 
volkswagenag.com
www.volkswagenag.com
Annual Media Conference 2018 Annual Media Conference 2018 of Volkswagen AG for 
journalists on the occasion of the 2017 Full Year Results on Tuesday, March 13, 
2018 ...


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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[ROBERT via EV]

You better check with the VFD manufacturer before you waste your money on a 
VFD.  If you have a 3 phase gen set, I suggest you get a 3 phase charger.

You stated:
"Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need to 
adjust the voltage output of the generator.)"  With this approach, you are 
looking for trouble.

"Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage QUICKLY 
in order to get something closer to a square wave output rather than the normal 
sine wave?"  At 12KW - 60KW, this is serious design project.  Expect to spend a 
lot of time and money.

If you have a 3 phase gen set, I suggest you get a 3 phase charger or sell the 
gen set to someone that needs 3 phase electricity.


From: EV  on behalf of Matt Lacey via EV 

Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2018 10:40 PM
To: John Lussmyer via EV
Cc: Matt Lacey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

No,  a vfd can go in both directions. Same concept as using one as a motor 
controller.  You're basically getting the vfd to run the genset in Regen.  
Genset goes on the output side of the vfd. The battery goes on the dc bus.

No need to connect anything to the normal ac input

⁣Sent from BlueMail

On 4 Mar. 2018, 13:37, at 13:37, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>On Sat Mar 03 21:29:22 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>You could get a variable frequency drive to convert the ac to dc.
>Assuming the get set output is 220vac or similar.
>
>Last I knew, a VFD output AC at a Variable Frequency.  Not DC.
>Sounds like you are suggesting I just get a 60KW (actually, I only need
>30KW) charger.
>
>
>--
>
>Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] Electric Mini Boat

[ROBERT via EV]

Nice boat and good job on Bug.



From: EV  on behalf of corbin dunn via EV 

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 8:52 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: corbin dunn
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Mini Boat

Hi EVDL,

My friend came up with the latest cool EV: an electric mini boat! He designed 
this 6’ length boat that can hold a full sized person. I cruised around in it a 
bit, and it was pretty fun. Check out pictures and some video links on his 
site: http://rapidwhale.com/mini-boat.php— he is also selling kits for 
those inclined to build their own.
Mini Boat - Rapid Whale
rapidwhale.com
An electric mini boat from Rapid Whale. Sold as a DIY kit that is easy to 
assemble.



-corbin
My electric VW bug conversion, with nearly 50k EV miles: 
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/plug-bug/

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap DC motor control anyone?

[ROBERT via EV]

I would go the variable speed drill direction.  Lee, from my experience SCRs 
have a tendency to false trigger on noise.  I was burn a few times.  I remember 
using a GE SCR for an alarm circuit.  I could not get it from false triggering. 
 I talked to the SCR designer at GE and he never could come up with an answer.  
I redesigned using transistors and NAND gate chip and everything was OK.   
Another possible choose is to look on the web for a motor speed controller kit. 
 I think Jameco makes a kit.  One time, I purchased a motor controller from a 
local surplus store.  I suggest looking for a controller that works  forget 
a one off design.



From: EV  on behalf of Jan Steinman via EV 

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 4:58 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jan Steinman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap DC motor control anyone?

> From: Lee Hart 
>
> David Chapman via EV wrote:
>> Lee I really appreciate the lead
>> on the GE handbook, I downloaded it and indeed that circuit on pg 293
>> looks perfect for this project…

So, it sounds like one of the goals of the project is to put something together 
from components?

Because I thought Lee’s idea of finding a variable-speed electric drill at a 
thrift store or yard sale was really an excellent idea.

You can probably do so for less than the costs of buying components, especially 
if you’re going to pay “single piece” shipping on them.

And the drill speed control has the advantage of having been designed for motor 
speed control. Newer ones even use pulse-width-modulation, which you can tell 
if it makes a squealing or whistling sound at low speed. That sort of 
controller is going to give you the best low-speed control, with lots more 
torque.

 The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the 
longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and 
high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, 
while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the 
greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren 

[http://lmgtfy.com/assets/sticker-b222a421fb6cf257985abfab188be7d6746866850efe2a800a3e57052e1a2411.png]

LMGTFY
www.lmgtfy.com
LMGTFY


 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op  
Welcome to EcoReality!
www.ecoreality.org
EcoReality is a nascent ecovillage on Salt Spring Island, British Columbia, 
Canada, dedicated to the ethics and principles of Permaculture, and to 
providing our own shelter, food, and energy in a sustainable and renewable 
manner. We do this by growing our own food, including raw goat milk and other 
protien sources, producing our own energy, including biomass, biodiesel and 
other sources, and by distributing our excess to the surrounding community, via 
direct farm gate sales, farmers markets, local grocers, and other channels. We 
are currently seeking one or more additional capital partners to take us to the 
next step of building thirteen unit of zero-carbon, zero-mile housing, using 
natural building techniques and materials.



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EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org 
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The Electric Vehicle Discussion List is a forum for discussing the current 
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EV as a ...


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Re: [EVDL] Car of the Dystopian Future?

[ROBERT via EV]

Nice clip; however, I could not help from noticing the trip was all downhill.  
Makes one wonder ... did the CitiVan function?



From: EV  on behalf of Bill Dennis via EV 

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 3:45 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Cc: Bill Dennis
Subject: [EVDL] Car of the Dystopian Future?

With the passing of Ursula Le Guin this week, I decided to watch the old PBS
"Lathe of Heaven" movie, which I haven't seen in decades.  Filmed in 1979,
the picture tells us that it's set "In the Near Future".  Lo and behold,
about 3/4 the way through the film, the protagonist jumps into a CitiCar and
zooms off.  Any old-timers on the list know anything about how the car ended
up in the film?  Here's a link to a clip from the film, complete with the
no-budget CGI hamburger-looking alien spaceships flying around:

http://player.mashpedia.com/player.php?q=coE87VzEWSE
[http://img.youtube.com/vi/coE87VzEWSE/0.jpg]

▶ Full Video: Lathe of Heaven 
CitiVan
player.mashpedia.com
Video player featuring videos from Kyle Feller



Bill Dennis

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

[ROBERT via EV]

Is it possible to use different magnet lengths in the same motor?



From: Lawrence Harris <lhar...@haritech.com>
Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 12:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

Interesting from a production point of view.  If they have a need for low 
quantities (relative) of motors with different HP then it might make sense to 
tools once and then be able to vary the characteristics during assembly.  I was 
thinking it might be more interesting if they put the rotor on a lead screw and 
allowed the positioning of the magnets w.r.t. the coils to be adjusted.  Would 
provide something like field weakening on a permanent magnet motor.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com<mailto:lhar...@haritech.com>




On Jan 4, 2018, at 15:09, ROBERT via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

I do not see the advantage except having the capability to use one motor core 
for multiply HP motors.  Does anyone think GM is going to use different magnet 
lengths in the same motor?  Does this have some efficiency improvement?  Do you 
think they are going modify the controller to allow different magnet lengths in 
the same motor?  Anyone have any thoughts on this subject?



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org>> on 
behalf of brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 2:43 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

Anyone who thinks General Motors isn’t serious about electric vehicle
leadership doesn’t have a clue.

Despite Silicon Valley’s derogatory ideology regarding conventional car
companies like General Motors, the dinosaur from Detroit has been at the
forefront of electrifying personal mobility. GM’s flirtation with electric
vehicles began in earnest back the early ’60s. It started with the
Electro-Vair and Electro-Maro programs in the ’60s, then came a
battery-powered Chevette in 1977, followed by production of the EV1 in the
late ’90s, before culminating with the Chevrolet Bolt, the industry’s first
long-range-yet-affordable-mainstream-electric-car.

But the company isn’t resting on its laurels, as Tesla Model 3 reviews begin
to hit the internet, GM is busy working on a new family of electric cars due
in 2021. While advancements in battery technology have long been heralded as
the key to consumer adoption, GM engineers haven’t forgotten that a motor is
still what propels a vehicle forward, electric or not.

Published on December 19, 2017, by the USPTO, GM has filed a patent for an
electric motor with multiple magnet lengths which could totally change how
the company thinks about manufacturing electric propulsion systems.

For example, the Chevrolet Bolt uses a permanent magnet brushless motor,
where a magnetic field is produced by the spinning magnet and rotor assembly
which then transfers to the stator core and interacts with flowing current
to create torque. Differing magnet lengths will change the torque output,
smaller magnets decrease torque, while longer ones increase torque,
proportionally.

What the company is proposing is a new “modular” lamination sheet which
would be capable of accepting multiple magnet lengths. Instead of being
forced to re-engineer the lamination stack each time a change in magnet
length is required, GM proposes a series of tabs within the apertures of the
lamination sheets which, when layered, can be assembled to delineate the
magnet slots.

Effectively, the tabs will allow the stacks to accept either short or long
magnets–the tab will support the shorter magnet halfway down the aperture or
get pushed out of the way upon inserting a longer magnet. GM claims there
will be at least a 25-percent difference in magnet lengths.

It’s helpful to think about GM’s work with modular lamination stacks almost
like powertrain sharing–take GM’s naturally-aspirated 6.2-liter small-block
V8, which is offered in LT1 and L86 guise. As the high-performance version,
the LT1 is equipped with a shorter intake runner for better high-rpm
breathing, different exhaust manifolds, and unique cam timing; while the
trucks make use of longer intake runners in order to fatten up the mid-range
torque curve.

What will be of interest moving forward is how GM plans to implement the
respective magnet lengths, will the smaller magnets be used for efficiency,
while the bigger ones left for high-performance or hauling? Possibly, but
there are also drawbacks to simply increasing magnet size; larger magnets
may create more torque, but they also force the coil to fight through more
resistance as the higher torque values lead to an increase in eddy and
hysteresis.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

[ROBERT via EV]

I do not see the advantage except having the capability to use one motor core 
for multiply HP motors.  Does anyone think GM is going to use different magnet 
lengths in the same motor?  Does this have some efficiency improvement?  Do you 
think they are going modify the controller to allow different magnet lengths in 
the same motor?  Anyone have any thoughts on this subject?



From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 2:43 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

Anyone who thinks General Motors isn’t serious about electric vehicle
leadership doesn’t have a clue.

Despite Silicon Valley’s derogatory ideology regarding conventional car
companies like General Motors, the dinosaur from Detroit has been at the
forefront of electrifying personal mobility. GM’s flirtation with electric
vehicles began in earnest back the early ’60s. It started with the
Electro-Vair and Electro-Maro programs in the ’60s, then came a
battery-powered Chevette in 1977, followed by production of the EV1 in the
late ’90s, before culminating with the Chevrolet Bolt, the industry’s first
long-range-yet-affordable-mainstream-electric-car.

But the company isn’t resting on its laurels, as Tesla Model 3 reviews begin
to hit the internet, GM is busy working on a new family of electric cars due
in 2021. While advancements in battery technology have long been heralded as
the key to consumer adoption, GM engineers haven’t forgotten that a motor is
still what propels a vehicle forward, electric or not.

Published on December 19, 2017, by the USPTO, GM has filed a patent for an
electric motor with multiple magnet lengths which could totally change how
the company thinks about manufacturing electric propulsion systems.

For example, the Chevrolet Bolt uses a permanent magnet brushless motor,
where a magnetic field is produced by the spinning magnet and rotor assembly
which then transfers to the stator core and interacts with flowing current
to create torque. Differing magnet lengths will change the torque output,
smaller magnets decrease torque, while longer ones increase torque,
proportionally.

What the company is proposing is a new “modular” lamination sheet which
would be capable of accepting multiple magnet lengths. Instead of being
forced to re-engineer the lamination stack each time a change in magnet
length is required, GM proposes a series of tabs within the apertures of the
lamination sheets which, when layered, can be assembled to delineate the
magnet slots.

Effectively, the tabs will allow the stacks to accept either short or long
magnets–the tab will support the shorter magnet halfway down the aperture or
get pushed out of the way upon inserting a longer magnet. GM claims there
will be at least a 25-percent difference in magnet lengths.

It’s helpful to think about GM’s work with modular lamination stacks almost
like powertrain sharing–take GM’s naturally-aspirated 6.2-liter small-block
V8, which is offered in LT1 and L86 guise. As the high-performance version,
the LT1 is equipped with a shorter intake runner for better high-rpm
breathing, different exhaust manifolds, and unique cam timing; while the
trucks make use of longer intake runners in order to fatten up the mid-range
torque curve.

What will be of interest moving forward is how GM plans to implement the
respective magnet lengths, will the smaller magnets be used for efficiency,
while the bigger ones left for high-performance or hauling? Possibly, but
there are also drawbacks to simply increasing magnet size; larger magnets
may create more torque, but they also force the coil to fight through more
resistance as the higher torque values lead to an increase in eddy and
hysteresis.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[ROBERT via EV]

What? To maintain a small car like a Leaf at 55 MPH only requires about 10 - 12 
HP.  This is only 7.5 KW (10HP) - 8.9 KW (12HP).  The battery in the Leaf is 
rated at 30 KW-Hr.  At 55 MPH it does not require all the power in the battery 
(30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9 KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.  A solar 
panel system that could replenish this energy plus conversion losses would keep 
the car going and the battery level at a its current level of charge because 
the solar panel system would run the car.



From: EV  on behalf of Marc de Piolenc via EV 

Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:39 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Marc de Piolenc
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

You're getting power and energy mixed up.
Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
power rating and speed.
To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.

It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
while driving.

On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have a
short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
broad daylight in a sunny climate.

Marc de Piolenc

On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
> per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to know is 
> what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.? Now don't tell 
> me it can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.? 
> My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.? I do know that a 
> 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know 
> the numbers of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.? I 
> guesstimated it would be about 1 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? 
> Thanks,? Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range 
> extender/RV that could charge while driving.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[ROBERT via EV]

David, you are correct; however, I did the math using the information provided. 
 The problem is that people use the terms energy and power interchangeably. 
Power is the rate which work is done and measured in watts.  Energy is the 
capacity to do work measured in watt-hrs.  I was being sarcastic.  Sorry.


From: David Nelson <gizm...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 9:05 PM, ROBERT via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5 miles per 
> kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5 miles = 
> 222 W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However, if it is 
> accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.
>

This is an example of why the units need to be correct. It should
state that the Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kWh, that is a kilowatt-hour
not a kilowatt. This changes your numbers to 1000 Wh / 4.5mi = 222
Wh/mi. Thus you need 222Wh to go a mile. If you only had 222W from a
solar panel then you need to have one hour of charging to go that
mile.

David D Nelson
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[ROBERT via EV]

I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kw 
at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5 miles = 222 
W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However, if it is 
accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.




From: EV  on behalf of Jay Summet via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 4:18 PM
To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Lawrence Rhodes via EV; 
ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jay Summet
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

55 mph / 4.5 miles per kwh = 12.22 kwh per hour or 30/12.22 = 2.45 hours of 
driving time at 55mph with 30 kwh, or 2.45x55=135 mile range at 55mph.

So, to drive continuously at 55mph  you would need a minimum input of 12,220 
watts.

Jay

On December 27, 2017 5:47:54 PM EST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
wrote:
>Hi all,
>My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
>miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to
>know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.
>Now don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the formula
>for figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
>variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
>hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed
>for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be about 1
>watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence Rhodes...the
>point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge
>while driving.
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Re: [EVDL] Battery balancer circuit

[ROBERT via EV]

This link will work  www.evdl.org/lib

EVDL Library
www.evdl.org
Lead-Acid Batteries: Lee Hart's basic lead-acid battery charging instructions: 
html: Lee Hart's lead-acid battery care basics How your batteries are like your 
dog





From: EV  on behalf of Mark Hanson via EV 

Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:20 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Mark Hanson
Subject: [EVDL] Battery balancer circuit

Hi folks
The battery balancers and EV etc circuits are at 
www.evdl/lib/mh.  It's a PWM ckt fairly efficient shunt 
regulator.
Have a renewable energy Christmas
Reevadiy.org. Mark in Roanoke

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Canadian dealerships crave U.S.-made EVs to meet increasing demand (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

This could explain Ford's decision to move its EV production to Mexico.  
Because of the re-negotiations of NAFTA, the current administration policies, 
and increasing demand for EVs in other countries, Ford has written off the US 
EV market.



From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 2:39 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] Canadian dealerships crave U.S.-made EVs to meet increasing 
demand (v)



http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/dealerships-crave-evs-to-meet-increasing-demand
[https://postmediawindsorstar2.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/08-looser-jpg.jpg]

Dealerships crave Electric Vehicles to meet increasing 
...
windsorstar.com
Bob Aylesworth had his mind made up years ago: When the time was right he was 
going to buy a battery-only, electric vehicle. That time came for the retired 
St. Clair ...


Dealerships crave Electric Vehicles to meet increasing demand
December 8, 2017  Dave Battagello

[video  flash
http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/dealerships-crave-evs-to-meet-increasing-demand
[https://postmediawindsorstar2.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/08-looser-jpg.jpg]

Dealerships crave Electric Vehicles to meet increasing 
...
windsorstar.com
Bob Aylesworth had his mind made up years ago: When the time was right he was 
going to buy a battery-only, electric vehicle. That time came for the retired 
St. Clair ...




images
http://wpmedia.windsorstar.com/2017/12/07-boltwithb-jpg-e1512774963911.jpg?w=640=55=all
A Chevy Bolt EV at a charging station at the Windsor International Aquatic
and Training Centre. Nick Brancaccio / Windsor Star

http://wpmedia.windsorstar.com/2017/12/07-bobbolt-jpg-e1512775033714.jpg?quality=55=all
Bob Aylesworth plugs in his Chevy Bolt EV at Windsor International Aquatic
and Training Centre. Nick Brancaccio / Windsor Star
]

Electric vehicles gain in popularity, but hard to find.

Bob Aylesworth had his mind made up years ago: When the time was right he
was going to buy a battery-only, electric vehicle.

That time came for the retired St. Clair College professor at the beginning
of this year when he made the purchase of a new 2017 Chevy Bolt.

The problem was he made his $47,000 buy without even seeing the car — then
he had to wait three months before it arrived at the local dealership.

“I am a strong environmental-oriented person,” Aylesworth said. “When I
bought it in mid-January they didn’t even have the brochures at that time. I
got it strictly based on online reviews.

“It was a little bit scary. I didn’t know anyone else with an electric car.”

Today, Aylesworth can breathe a huge sigh of relief because he “just loves”
his new Bolt, which, after a government rebate of $14,000, cost him $33,000
“all-in.”

“It’s just a really smooth, quiet vehicle,” he said. “It gets a lot of
positive attention and I’m not burning gas.”

The Windsor resident has read about the slow sales of electric vehicles, but
he believes the reason for it has nothing to do with the quality of the
cars, but their availability.

“People walk in to buy a car and there is not one available, so they buy
something else,” he said. “People are not buying them because it’s so hard
to find them.”

Aylesworth purchased his Bolt at Gus Revenberg Chevrolet Buick where he was
one of only a handful locally who was lucky enough to purchase the vehicle.

General Motors will stop producing the 2017 Bolt next week and start
producing the 2018 version in January, according to Mickey Pierre, general
sales manager at Revenberg.

But dealers have been told it will be a shortened production year for the
electric vehicle ending in the summer. That will keep availability on this
side of the border tight, he said.

Dealerships are allocated a certain number of Bolts for the year based on
their sales volumes, Pierre said.

Buyers will be forced to continue buying the Bolt sight unseen and waiting
anywhere from three to six months to receive their car, he said.

Dealerships in the Windsor area combined will be lucky to have a dozen or so
Bolts available for sale.

Pierre agreed with Aylesworth that sales would jump if dealerships had them
stocked in larger numbers.

“We could sell 20 to 25 a year if we could get the numbers (in stock) of
that car,” Pierre said.

While the Bolt [EV] will be hard to come by, the Chevy Volt [pih], which
runs primarily on battery, but also fuel, is more readily available with two
currently sitting in the showroom at the dealership, he said.

“You will be able to find them in stock at most dealers,” Pierre said.

Volts can 

[EVDL] Why the EV will win over the ICE

[ROBERT via EV]

I saw this article describing the a newly designed engine for an Infiniti 
Automobile.  In order to get fuel economy and performance from the engine, the 
design is very complex.  All this can be accomplished by software in an 
electric motor controller.  The simplest solution is always the best solution.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/under-pressure-the-science-behind-infiniti%e2%80%99s-variable-compression-ratio-engine/ss-BBGpvXP?li=BBnbfcL

[https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBGpASQ.img]

Under Pressure: The Science Behind Infiniti’s Variable-Compression-Ratio 
Engine
www.msn.com
Click on through to demystify the unique operating properties of the engine 
that recently debuted in the new 2019 Infiniti QX50.


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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

[ROBERT via EV]

Anyone who has a home heat pump can check the register temperature with a 
thermometer.  You will find if the heat strips are not energized the maximum 
temperature is about 90 F with an outside air temperature of about 68 F.  Give 
it a try.  Then tell me I am incorrect.  In addition, the current building 
codes require a 15% fresh air intake to the return air.  The old codes allowed 
a closed recirculating system.  This does not help the efficiency but improves 
the air quality in the structure.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.  This
> low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to a lot
> a people.

I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.

I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
does the air from the vents feel in the winter?

I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace brand)
at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me, meaning
that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite believeable.

That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most of
the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be well
above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.

Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect it
to have auxiliary resistive heat.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[ROBERT via EV]

the hybrid unit uses 1 - 2 KWHr of electricity per day.  In the summer, the 
usage is 0.  During Jan - Feb the usage has been as high as 50 KWHr per month.  
The yearly cost is $50 - $80 per year for electricity for the hybrid unit at 
0.15 KWHr.  I tell this story because so many people tell me they installed a 
solar hot water system and it did not help.  They are correct because the local 
solar companies and most national companies do not unders
 tand lifestyle and its effect on energy efficiency.  Another point is a hybrid 
unit cost $1500 - $1800.  The $1800 unit has a stainless steel tank with a 20 
year warranty.  A standard electric hot water heater cost $400 - $450 with a 9 
year tank warranty.  I will let you do the math but considering it takes 2 
standard units over a 20 year period and the energy saving from a hybrid unit, 
only a short sighted person would buy a standard hot water heater with or 
without solar.  Also, I got by two hybrid units off craigslist for $100 each.  
They both work.  I only needed to clean the elements and replace on element.  
But that is another story.







From: Robert Bruninga <bruni...@usna.edu<mailto:bruni...@usna.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)



AMEN!
When I installed my heatpump wter heater, I kept the old one.  Put them in
series so that the heatpump first heats the 50F incoming city water to
about 100F (intentionally set that low so that the heatpumps is  operating
most efficiently).  Then that water goes into the old electic tank where
the top coil is set to 110F.
So most of the heating is at the very high efficiency of the heatpump
unit.

Wrapped them both in 4" insulation.

And by only setting a final temp of 110F, the wife can still take a HOT
shower, though she is burning through 90% hot water and 10% cold to get
the right temp.  We can do this at this low temperature because of the 100
gallons of hot water available.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

You guys are correct about a heat pump being more energy efficiency than a
resistance heating element.  I recently installed a hybrid hot water
heater.  I have an external energy monitor on this circuit.  The hybrid
hot water heater used 1/4 the energy of a standard hot water heater.  With
the tax credit, the heater will pay for itself in 4 years.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org>> on 
behalf of John Lussmyer via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down
to around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

[ROBERT via EV]

I have avoided getting into this discussion on heat pumps because I started the 
discussion with my question about the size of a resistance heating element for 
a small car like the VW and the question was answered.  However, everyone is 
praising the efficiency of a heat pump.  Efficiency is not he whole story when 
it comes to heating a house and maybe a car.  A heat pump outputs a register 
temperature of approximately 90 F.  This low a temperature blowing across your 
skin is not comfortable to a lot a people.  A coal fired heating unit register 
output is over 140 F.  An oil fired unit is approximately 140 F and a gas fired 
unit is approximately 120 F.  In addition, a heat pump unit must run a longer 
time to maintain the heat losses from a house.  Heat pumps run most of the time 
blowing cool air.  Fossil fuels output a high temperature at the register and 
do not run as long.  In determining the best method of heating a structure, 
efficiency must be balanced with comfort.



From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

For the home, never repair or replace or buy another Air Conditioner!

Spend a $100 more and get the two-way Heatpump model.  Whether it is a
window unit, portable 2-hose unit or whole house AC, replace it with a
heatpump.

Even if you have oil or gas heat.  Run the Heatpump all the time in the
winter will save you HALF of the cost of oil for every BTU it puts in the
house.  At current Gas prices, it is kind of wash, but the advantage of
the heatpump is that it can be 100% fossil fuel free when powered by solar
or utility subscribed wind.

I even hang some old window AC-only units in some rooms or basement joists
backwards so they can be used as a heat source in the winter.

Just sayin...
Bob, Wb4APR

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On 29 Nov 2017 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  if you choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you
> need at your coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance
> heating.

Every home-HVAC heat pump I've ever seen has had supplemental and/or
"emergency" heat.  They all had resistive electric supplemental heat.
I've read more recently about HVAC systems that use fuel gas heat as the
supplement.

I'd assume (and we all know what that is!) that all production EV heat
pumps would also include resistive heating.  Very few people will tolerate
Yugo- class heating in their vehicles.  (The infamous Yugo GV ICEV came
with a pitiful heater.  Owners who complained were told to keep the blower
on LOW position so the air coming out of the vents would feel a little
warmer.)

IMO fitting a heat pump to a conversion EV is going to be a pretty
significant challenge.  That holds whether you're trying to make a HP from
an existing aircon that came with the ICEV you're converting, or trying to
convince a HP system from a production EV that it should work in a vehicle
with none of the Canbus signals it expects.  I would have no idea where to
start.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[ROBERT via EV]

You guys are correct about a heat pump being more energy efficiency than a 
resistance heating element.  I recently installed a hybrid hot water heater.  I 
have an external energy monitor on this circuit.  The hybrid hot water heater 
used 1/4 the energy of a standard hot water heater.  With the tax credit, the 
heater will pay for itself in 4 years.



From: EV  on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down to 
around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

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[EVDL] Heater

[ROBERT via EV]

Sometimes during a conversation, the heater core is replaced with an electric 
resistance heater.  For a small size car like a VW Bug, what size is used?  
What is the wattage?

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Re: [EVDL] $200k Tesla 2020 Roadster $50k reserve 0-60:1.9s ts:250mph | (2019 semi e-truck r:300mi)

[ROBERT via EV]

Give him 50K and hope to get it  when??



From: Mark Abramowitz <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 11:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $200k Tesla 2020 Roadster $50k reserve 0-60:1.9s ts:250mph 
| (2019 semi e-truck r:300mi)

Musk claimed that the new Roadster's 0-60 in 1.9 seconds would be the fastest 
of any production auto ever.

Musk coined a new term for being faster than insane or ludicrous mode - plaid.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 18, 2017, at 8:34 AM, ROBERT via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> Porsche announced the Mission E base price is 85K and will be available in 
> 2019.  The Mission E is slower 0-60 in 3.5 sec; however, it will be available.
>
>
> 
> From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 3:50 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: brucedp5
> Subject: [EVDL] $200k Tesla 2020 Roadster $50k reserve 0-60:1.9s ts:250mph | 
> (2019 semi e-truck r:300mi)
>
>
>
> 'Super e-Roadster that can travel from SF to L.A. – and back – on a single
> charge'
>
> https://www.popsci.com/teslas-new-truck-and-roadster
> Tesla is crowdfunding its vehicles with big promises
> 20171117  Rob Verger
>
> [images  / Tesla
> https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/1000_1x_/public/images/2017/11/4w2a6869.jpg?itok=BbXCxNQQ=50,50
> Elon Musk announced an electric truck on Thursday night, as well as a
> surprise new Roadster
>
> https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/1000_1x_/public/images/2017/11/4w2a6744.jpg?itok=TpAD_r8N=50,50
> Tesla's electric trucks have a range of 500 miles and are expected to begin
> production in 2019. The total price tag remains unknown.
> ]
>
> The company employs a "pay now, drive eventually," approach.
>
> Tesla truck Roadster event
>
> Elon Musk announced an electric truck on Thursday night, as well as a
> surprise new Roadster.
>
> At a theatrical, hype-filled event Thursday night in an aircraft hanger in
> Hawthorne, California, Elon Musk finally revealed Tesla’s long-expected
> electric semi truck. He then surprised the audience by unveiling another
> product that emerged from one of those trucks—a bright red Roadster, an
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Re: [EVDL] $200k Tesla 2020 Roadster $50k reserve 0-60:1.9s ts:250mph | (2019 semi e-truck r:300mi)

[ROBERT via EV]

Porsche announced the Mission E base price is 85K and will be available in 
2019.  The Mission E is slower 0-60 in 3.5 sec; however, it will be available.



From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 3:50 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] $200k Tesla 2020 Roadster $50k reserve 0-60:1.9s ts:250mph | 
(2019 semi e-truck r:300mi)



'Super e-Roadster that can travel from SF to L.A. – and back – on a single
charge'

https://www.popsci.com/teslas-new-truck-and-roadster
Tesla is crowdfunding its vehicles with big promises
20171117  Rob Verger

[images  / Tesla
https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/1000_1x_/public/images/2017/11/4w2a6869.jpg?itok=BbXCxNQQ=50,50
Elon Musk announced an electric truck on Thursday night, as well as a
surprise new Roadster

https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/1000_1x_/public/images/2017/11/4w2a6744.jpg?itok=TpAD_r8N=50,50
Tesla's electric trucks have a range of 500 miles and are expected to begin
production in 2019. The total price tag remains unknown.
]

The company employs a "pay now, drive eventually," approach.

Tesla truck Roadster event

Elon Musk announced an electric truck on Thursday night, as well as a
surprise new Roadster.

At a theatrical, hype-filled event Thursday night in an aircraft hanger in
Hawthorne, California, Elon Musk finally revealed Tesla’s long-expected
electric semi truck. He then surprised the audience by unveiling another
product that emerged from one of those trucks—a bright red Roadster, an
updated version of the company’s first vehicle.

The Roadster, which he said will be available in 2020, will cost $200,000.
You can reserve one right now for a cool $50,000. Musk didn’t reveal a
sticker price for the new semi truck, but the company is accepting $5,000
reservations for that vehicle, too, even though production isn’t scheduled
to start until 2019.

But Tesla is known as much for its ambition as it is for its vehicle
delivery delays; the pre-order deposit is a familiar tactic, too. And the
current shortage of Model 3 cars looms over the elaborate spectacle of the
semi-truck and Roadster announcement. The company accepted hundreds of
thousands of reservations for the $35,000 electric daily driver at $1,000
apiece, but so far has only delivered more than 200 of them.
Welcome to the circus

Elon Musk is a modern-day P.T. Barnum, says Arthur Wheaton, an expert on the
automotive industry at Cornell University’s School of Industrial and Labor
Relations. “He’s extremely enthusiastic in his goals, believes in his
mission, but I think the actual practical day-to-day and what it really
takes—I think he vastly underestimates,” he says.

Tesla has not responded to a request for comment.

“Taking the money and then promising you something later has gotten him in
some trouble for the Model 3,” Wheaton adds. “Now people who put their $1000
down for the Model 3—they may not get it for another entire year.” (The
reservation is refundable, but has been known to happen slowly.)

Unlike the Roadster, the Model 3 is meant to be a family’s main car. While
the company’s website will give customers an estimate of when they might get
it, the long delays for people who are hoping to use the Model 3 as their
primary vehicle can affect a family’s real-life logistics. The Model 3, in
contrast to the Roadster, isn’t aimed at people who don’t mind parking a lot
of money in Tesla’s coffers and waiting for their toy to arrive later.

Musk promises that the new Roadster will be “the fastest production car ever
made, period.” It will be able to accelerate from zero to 60 in just 1.9
seconds, clock a quarter mile in 8.9 seconds, and hit a top speed of over
250 miles per hour. For comparison, a 2017 Porsche 911 GT3 take 3.2 seconds
to hit 60 mph—over a second slower.

“The point of doing this,” Musk said, “is just (to) give a hardcore
smackdown to gasoline cars.” And while it’s true that the Roadster
demonstrates that an electric vehicle can compete with the best internal
combustion-driven supercars on the spec sheet, other factors—like price and
availability—are more likely to be what holds people back from adopting
them.

The cars are worlds apart in terms of performance and target audience, but
they still rely on Tesla’s underlying battery technology and supply chain.
One of the company’s key problems in the Model 3 production stemmed from the
batteries, which they make in a Nevada facility called the Gigafactory.

Tesla semi truck

About that truck

Ostensibly, the Tesla event was a reveal for the electric semi. Musk stood
in front of two sleek trucks, one silver, one grey, and rattled off stats:
the battery-powered vehicle will be able to do zero to 60 mph in five
seconds if it’s unweighted; pulling a full load, it would take 20 seconds to
do the same.

The key question for electric vehicles is their range, and this one 

Re: [EVDL] How the US generates electricity

[ROBERT via EV]

This is a very informative article. One interesting statement was:

"(Note that while the low-carbon share is at record highs, renewables’ share of 
the mix remains slightly below where it was in 1960. This is due to the growth 
of overall electricity demand.)"


If we assume EV use will increase the electrical demand at a rate greater than 
the decrease caused by increased efficiency, then in the next 20 years 
electrical demand will increase.  Unlike the period 2009 - 2016 where the 
electrical demand decreased. Using the statement above as a guide and 
information from the article, renewables share of the mix will decrease and 
natural gas share will increase.  This would be the conclusion from the 
article; however, I am not sure I agree.




From: EV  on behalf of Peter Eckhoff via EV 

Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 2:59 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peter Eckhoff
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How the US generates electricity

The interesting thing about this carbon brief map is that my 5kw array is
not listed.  My installation predates a number of the large 5+ MW
installations that are highlighted when moused over.  It would take a
thousand of my type of installations to make up one yellow dot on the map
but I know that there are such roof top installations in this state just by
the sheer number of solar installation companies and by how long they have
been in business.

I am wondering if this map is under reporting the amount of solar sourced
generation taking place?  And if so, are other sources of information under
reporting the total amount of electricity being generated?  We may be
"cleaner" than we think.  Also, what about solar hot water?


On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV 
wrote:

> https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-how-the-us-generates-electricity
[https://www.carbonbrief.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/us-map-screeshot.jpg]

Mapped: How the US generates electricity | Carbon 
Brief
www.carbonbrief.org
For the first time Carbon Brief has plotted the United States' power stations 
in an interactive map to show how and where the US generates electricity.


>
> Here is an excellent site, Carbonbrief.com, that has a great interactive
> graphic
> about how we generate our electricity. This kind of website should be
> extremely
> useful in the future if the EPA and other governmental websites do not
> publish
> public information.
>
> Take AZ for example. If I rem correctly, an area 10 miles by 10 miles of
> solar
> panels could generate enough electricity for the AZ usage alone, but yet
> we have
> the majority of our elec produced by gas, coal and nuclear... which I am
> sure is
> much more than 10 miles square of the power plans, train tracks, gas lines
> etc.
>
> The problem as we all know is storage... but it seems like that problem is
> going
> to be solved, or is already solved if we just start manufacturing enough
> storage
> capacity.
>
> Rush Dougherty
> www.TucsonEV.com
J1772 Adapter | Home
www.tucsonev.com
This page is about a J1772 Adapter boxes, plugs and inlets for Electric Vehicle 
Charging


> Tucson AZ 85719
>
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
>
>
>
>
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EVDL Subscription Information and Help
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EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV Question #19: why do electric vehicles have to look so ... silly?

[ROBERT via EV]

I think the EV1 had a drag coefficient of 0.19.  Does not make the CD = 0.24 
for a Prius build in 2016 look very good.



From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:59 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV Question #19: why do electric vehicles have to look so 
... silly?



https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/97760520/car-question-19-why-do-electric-vehicles-have-to-look-so-silly
Car Question #19: why do electric vehicles have to look so 
...
www.stuff.co.nz
OPINION: If you're ambivalent about electric vehicles (EVs), odds-on it's down 
to one of two things: range anxiety or the fact they always seem to look a bit 
silly ...


Car Question #19: why do electric vehicles have to look so silly?
October 12 2017  DAVID LINKLATER

[images
https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/m/7/f/e/u/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349.1m7ci0.png/1507768530182.jpg

[https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/m/7/f/e/u/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349.1m7ci0.png/1507768530182.jpg]

You know Nissan Leaf is an EV because it looks silly. But it's less
aerodynamic than a Mazda3 or Toyota Corolla

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/m/7/f/e/t/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349.1m7ci0.png/1507768530182.jpg

[https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/m/7/f/e/t/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349.1m7ci0.png/1507768530182.jpg]

Expect future pure-EVs to look no different to conventional cars. VW is
doing it already with the e-Golf
]

[image]  Toyota Prius popularised the Kamm-tail body shape for eco-cars:
smooth lines, chopped-off tail.

OPINION: If you're ambivalent about electric vehicles (EVs), odds-on it's
down to one of two things: range anxiety or the fact they always seem to
look a bit silly. Or perhaps both.

To many, electric vehicles are a turn-off because they lack a certain visual
dignity. But are there good reasons for EVs to look like transportation pods
from the planet Smorth?

Yes, of course. But not all are entirely scientific.

The most obvious one is aerodynamic efficiency. EVs are all about extracting
the maximum distance from the limited battery power available, so it makes
complete sense to have a slippery body shape.

Aerodynamics really ony became a thing for cars in the 1930s, and the work
of German brainbox Wunibald Kamm from that era is still very influential
today.

The so-called "Kamm tail" combines long, smooth body contours with an
abruptly cut-off tail. The best-known Kamm-tail car is also one of the most
recognisable production-car shapes of modern times: the Toyota Prius. Which
did not start out as an EV, but its electrified hybrid technology did help
send the automotive industry down that path two decades ago.

That's why so many eco-friendly cars have looked so much like the Prius over
the years. It's a very clean profile.

Automotive aerodynamics are generally measured by something called drag
coefficient, represented by a "Cd" number. As a point of reference, a modern
family car might be in the 0.30-0.35 range. Something quite brick-like, such
as a Ford Territory SUV, is more like 0.38.

The latest Prius is considered extremely smooth for a series-production car,
with a figure of 0.24. Even the previous (taxi, anybody?) model was 0.25.
The new Hyundai Ioniq EV, which looks very Prius-like, is also 0.24. These
are very impressive numbers.

Simple, really. A silly shape equals smooth windflow. End of story? Not
quite.

The thing about the Prius and its ilk looking so idiosyncratic is that silly
body shapes have become synonymous with cutting-edge eco-automobiles, which
has in turn made them handy marketing tools for makers of EVs. While weird
styling might turn off the EV-undecided, it'll certainly attract the early
adopters who want to make a statement.

So while many plug-in hybrid EVs are simply standard cars with extra
batteries and a socket (think Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV), the trend for
pure-EVs that run solely on battery power has been standalone/super-weird
styling.

The Nissan Leaf is perhaps the prime example. It looks extremely silly but
it's only moderately slippery by modern standards, with a Cd of 0.28. That's
still really good, but also inferior to a Mazda3 hatchback (0.26),
Mercedes-Benz C-class (which actually equals the eco-champs with a figure of
0.24) or Audi A4, which achieves a remarkable 0.23.

Or consider the BMW i3 EV, which is super-strange looking but only manages a
Cd of 0.29.

Indeed, modern aerodynamic design allows carmakers to produce very slippery
shapes that are still quite classic and elegant. Tesla's Model S sedan is
0.24 and the forthcoming Model 3 is claimed to achieve 0.23 (the original
goal was 0.21, which would have been 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: YARA Birkeland zero emission autonomous cargo e-ship (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

Yes, the available of reduction gears was a problem during WWI.


Another reason ships converted to electric drives was the ability to use power 
more effectively.  During the night, a cruise ship will go from port to port 
requiring a high propulsion load.  Since people are asleep, the hotel load and 
accessory loads are lower.  Same applies to a battle ship.  If a ship is in 
waters where they do not need submarine warfare loads, they can load shed these 
loads and shift more power to other loads.  If a ship has laser weapons, it can 
shift large amounts of power to these weapons for surface warfare.  By being 
able to shift loads more effectively, all electric ships make better use of the 
available power.


The use of inverters, solid state breakers and transfer switches, computer 
controlled distribution systems, and islands of power are a big plus during 
damage control operations.  This is also plus for all electric ships.




From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 3:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: YARA Birkeland zero emission autonomous cargo e-ship 
(v)

All the documents I can find on electric ship propulsion shows that it was for 
efficiency reasons and flexibility,
so the prime mover + generator can be placed anywhere and no long prop shaft is 
needed.
Only the last of the 3 docs that I read (the IEEE one) has a short mention of a 
war-time reason to go for
electric drive on page 8 about the T2 "Navy Oilers", but it is not the Diesel 
Engine, instead it mentions the reduction gearing needed for the
diesel engine as the limiting production level, so switching to electric drive 
removed the reduction gear
requirement and thus more ships could be built.
Another (more recent) argument is the full coversion of the ships to electric, 
not just its propulsion.
Even the aircraft catapult is converted to electric, so the ship receives a 
jolt of power when a plane lands,
comparable to regen braking. It also avoids the piping needed for the 
traditionally steam-powered catapult.
Then the use of rail guns make a powerful electric generator required. This is 
easy if you already have a
powerful electric propulsion.
Another argument is surviveability.
It is simple to split a primary mover engine in two and place them in different 
parts of the ship
or align them differently than traditional. This is not new. Even steam 
turbines were repositioned
when they were installed as generators connected to electric drive motors.

http://futureforce.navylive.dodlive.mil/2015/08/electric-ship-propulsion/
The Curious History of Electric Ship 
Propulsion<http://futureforce.navylive.dodlive.mil/2015/08/electric-ship-propulsion/>
futureforce.navylive.dodlive.mil
In 1929, USS Lexington (CV 2) used its electric propulsion system to power the 
city of Tacoma, Washington, during a local energy crisis. Photo courtesy of 
Tacoma ...


https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/going-electric/
[https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/makin-island-web-lr.jpg]<https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/going-electric/>

Going Electric: The History and Future of Naval Electric 
...<https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/going-electric/>
www.defensemedianetwork.com
The advantages and disadvantages of electric drive in ships.


http://folk.ntnu.no/torarnj/IEEE_Proceedings_Skjong_2015.pdf
IEEE PROCEEDINGS 2015 1 The Marine Vessel’s Electrical 
...<http://folk.ntnu.no/torarnj/IEEE_Proceedings_Skjong_2015.pdf>
folk.ntnu.no
IEEE PROCEEDINGS 2015 1 The Marine Vessel’s Electrical Power System: From its 
Birth to Present Day Espen Skjong1 ;2 3, Egil Rødskar , Marta Molinas 1, Tor 
Arne ...


Quote from page 8: "At this time the turbo-electric propulsion system
was  not  a  new  invention,  as  all  the  capacity  to  manufacture
reduction gears was committed to supplying the naval fleet, the
use of turbo-electric propulsion was a natural choice resulting
in an average production time from laying the keel to sea trials
to about 70 days"

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 2:42 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Alan Arrison
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: YARA Birkeland zero emission autonomous cargo e-ship 
(v)

Where did the electricity come from for the electric drive motors?

It had to be some kind of fossil fuel engine running a generator.

Al


On 10/4/2017 11:20 AM, ROBERT via EV wrote:
> The electrification of ships has a long history.  During WWII, diesel engines 
> were in short supply. The US needed tanker ships because a large number were 
> sunk by the German U2 boats.  The T2 class tanker was the primary tanker.  
> Since diesel engines were in short supply, the US

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: YARA Birkeland zero emission autonomous cargo e-ship (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

The ship had 3 SSTGs, steam turbine generators, and we added two diesel 
generators (another amazing story why).  The steam was produced by two 1200 psi 
boilers that burn #2 diesel and heavy diesel.  Remember it was built in WWII.  
Even today the AC/AC drives on the cruise ships are powered by diesel driven 
generators.  To use an electric motor for ship's propulsion was an extreme 
innovation during WWII and for the ship to be operating with the same motors 
and drives (no rebuilding) with no trouble after 50 years is amazing.  This 
shows the reliability of using electric motors vs internal combustion engine.  
Also, these motors were very large and had varying speed ... no reduction 
gears.  For this level of engineering and design on a very short schedule in 
the 1940's is unreal.  Also, the US was able to achieve a production rate of a 
T2 tanker in two week.  No county has achieved this production rate even today.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Alan Arrison via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 2:41 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Alan Arrison
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: YARA Birkeland zero emission autonomous cargo e-ship 
(v)

Where did the electricity come from for the electric drive motors?

It had to be some kind of fossil fuel engine running a generator.

Al


On 10/4/2017 11:20 AM, ROBERT via EV wrote:
> The electrification of ships has a long history.  During WWII, diesel engines 
> were in short supply. The US needed tanker ships because a large number were 
> sunk by the German U2 boats.  The T2 class tanker was the primary tanker.  
> Since diesel engines were in short supply, the US started installing large 
> electric propulsion motors.  Even today some of these T2 tankers are still in 
> service with the original electric motors.  In the 1980's, I did some design 
> work on the electrical control system on the USNS Redstone.  The Redstone was 
> a T2 tanker with the original electric motors and drive cubicle.  The ship 
> had been extended by 72ft by adding a section in the center.  The Redstone 
> was station in FL and monitored launches from Cape Canaveral/Kennedy.  The 
> ship was finally decommissioned in the 2000s and cut up for scrap.  The 
> electric motors and drive controls were built by GE and as far as I know they 
> operated trouble free.  I reviewed the controls for possible replacement; 
> however, due to cost it was not done.  In addition, they still worked OK.  
> The controls were manually operated and the contractors made a huge noise 
> when operating.  To say the least, the electric propulsion system and drive 
> was amazing.  Great job for me.
>
>
> Most if not all ocean going cruise ships have AC/AC drives.  The QE2 was 
> converted in the 1980 to AC/AC drives.
>
>
>
>
> 
> From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 4:08 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: brucedp5
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: YARA Birkeland zero emission autonomous cargo e-ship (v)
>
>
>
> https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/final-design-autonomous-electric-container-vessel-known-yara-birkeland-revealed/
[https://cleantechnica.com/files/2017/09/final-design-of-autonomous-all-e-150x150.jpg]<https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/final-design-autonomous-electric-container-vessel-known-yara-birkeland-revealed/>

Final Design Of Autonomous, All-Electric Container Vessel — Yara Birkeland — 
Revealed<https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/final-design-autonomous-electric-container-vessel-known-yara-birkeland-revealed/>
cleantechnica.com
The final design of the all-electric, autonomous container ship known as the 
Yara Birkeland has now been completed, and testing has commenced at SINTEF 
Ocean’s 80 metre test tank facility in Trondheim, Norway. Accompanying this 
announcement, the Norwegian government enterprise known as ENOVA revealed that 
it will be providing support to the project in the form


> [https://cleantechnica.com/files/2017/09/final-design-of-autonomous-all-e-150x150.jpg]<https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/final-design-autonomous-electric-container-vessel-known-yara-birkeland-revealed/>
>
> Final Design Of Autonomous, All-Electric Container Vessel — Yara Birkeland — 
> Revealed<https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/final-design-autonomous-electric-container-vessel-known-yara-birkeland-revealed/>
[https://cleantechnica.com/files/2017/09/final-design-of-autonomous-all-e-150x150.jpg]<https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/final-design-autonomous-electric-container-vessel-known-yara-birkeland-revealed/>

Final Design Of Autonomous, All-Electric Container Vessel — Yara Birkeland — 
Revealed<https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/final-design-autono

Re: [EVDL] Clear stick-on film for protecting your EV

[ROBERT via EV]

I agree with you Cor.



From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Sunday, October 1, 2017 9:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clear stick-on film for protecting your EV

In the Prius community I have heard people extremely dissatisfied with
the clear film
to protect the car, because after several years of UV exposure, it
deteriorates and it
is almost impossible to remove, making a good looking car a mess when de
film becomes
old enough that it starts looking bad from the surface damage and you
try to remove it.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi
via EV
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2017 4:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Bill Woodcock via EV
Cc: Haudy Kazemi; Bill Woodcock
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clear stick-on film for protecting your EV

Vinyl wrap is similar to some of the protective films but not identical.
I don't believe any heat shrinking is used for Xpel clear films. Xpel is
also thicker and more resilient making it more effective against rock
chips and scratches. There are some pretty impressive threads with
photos on the Tesla Motors Club forums showing how effective clear
protective wraps like Xpel can be. To my eye, Xpel looks a lot like the
flexible clear protection films that are available for mobile phone
screens in that it provides scratch/gouge protection and probably a
little bit of impact protection.




On October 1, 2017 6:08:25 PM CDT, Bill Woodcock via EV
 wrote:
>It's a vinyl wrap.  They can be done on any car, it uses a flexible
>adhesive film, applied, heat-shrunk, and trimmed, not pre-cut for
>specific cars.
>
>People commonly get new cars wrapped if they know they'll be selling
>them, and want to protect the original paint (unwrap again just before
>sale).  Typically you get an opaque wrap, not only does it look better
>and give you a lot of new color choices, it also protects the paint
>underneath better.
>
>I wrapped my Smart ED in matte black with a matte battleship gray Le
>Mans stripe.
>
>
>-Bill
>
>
>> On Oct 1, 2017, at 15:56, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Occasionally I watch MotorWeek on PBS just to see how well and often
>they
>> report on EVs.
>> That episode #3704H was not about EVs, but did have 1 pih. The
>car-guy shop
>> segment had a company showing how an easy to apply film could protect
>the
>> body (like window tinting, but clear to protect the vehicle). The
>vehicle
>> they demoed on was a Porsche ice. But this product would also be
>applicable
>> to plugins, if that company had pre-cut pieces for them.
>>
>> If I had just taken ownership of a Bolt or Tesla-3 EV, I would
>consider
>> installing this film to help protect the EV from scratches, dings,
>and other
>> debris from stones thrown from the vehicle in front of you.
>>
>> Interestingly, when I searched their web site, though not all EVs
>were
>> listed, they did offer quite a few. So, since the 2010 production
>EV's
>> beginnings, some companies that mainly provide services to ice, are
>now also
>> offering them to plugins:
>>
>>
>http://www.xpel.com/paint-protection-kits/XPEL_US_and_Canada/Passenger_
>Cars_and_Light_Trucks/2017/Tesla/Model_S
>> Tesla-S  (& there is a Tesla-X page)
>>
>>
>http://www.xpel.com/paint-protection-kits/XPEL_US_and_Canada/Passenger_
>Cars_and_Light_Trucks/2017/Chevrolet/Bolt_EV/LT
>> GM Bolt
>>
>>
>http://www.xpel.com/paint-protection-kits/XPEL_US_and_Canada/Passenger_
>Cars_and_Light_Trucks/2017/Nissan/Leaf/SV
>> Nissan Leaf (different pages for each trim)
>>
>>
>http://www.xpel.com/paint-protection-kits/XPEL_US_and_Canada/Passenger_
>Cars_and_Light_Trucks/2017/BMW/i3/Mega_World
>> BMW i3
>>
>>
>http://www.xpel.com/paint-protection-kits/XPEL_US_and_Canada/Passenger_
>Cars_and_Light_Trucks/2017/Kia/Soul_(US)/EV
>> Kia Soul EV
>>
>>
>http://www.xpel.com/paint-protection-kits/XPEL_US_and_Canada/Passenger_
>Cars_and_Light_Trucks/2017/Volkswagen/Golf/e-Golf
>> VW e-Golf
>>
>> http://www.xpel.com/products/
>> products  (there are more plugin pages than what is above)
>>
>> [video
>> https://youtu.be/YSK4nWLZLL8
>> XPEL ULTIMATE & STEALTH Paint Protection Film ]
>>
>> http://www.xpel.com/locator/search/clearbra_installers/
>> installers
>>
>> http://www.motorweek.org/
>>
>http://www.kqed.org/tv/programs/archive/index.jsp?pgmid=2346=20170
>901
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>> http://evdl.org/evln/
>>
>>
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>
>> --
>> Sent from:
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>

Re: [EVDL] Anti-EV dealer

[ROBERT via EV]

This discussion started with a Mitsubishi dealer stating "whenever he gets an 
electric trade-in (even the Toyotas!), the batteries are toast and they're 
"running on the engine only."  He "just doesn't want to see the customers get 
hurt."  I have a 2005 Toyota Tacoma truck with 230K miles.  I had very few 
repairs with only one recall.  In addition, last year I drove the truck from 
Tucson, AZ to Knoxville, TN and back ... no trouble.  Very,very low maintenance 
and very reliable.  Now, I present a decision:  A person goes to a used car 
dealer looking for a vehicle with around 100K miles.  He is presented with 
three chooses: (1) a 2015 Toyota RAV4 EV, (2) a Toyota hybrid, and (3) Toyota 
ICE vehicle.  All three vehicles have a good history and being Toyota they 
should have good reliability.  Considering the person is a working type person 
(he is buying a high mileage vehicle), needs low cost reliable transportation 
for many years, and you are a respectful used car dealer (if they exist)  
 which vehicle would you recommend?



From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 7:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anti-EV dealer

Annapolis Maryland, the state capitol and sailing capital of the world
with hundreds of miles of million dollar waterfront has only one Nissan
dealer.  He has no EV's and no interest in them.  Yo have to go inland to
a middle class suburb of Washington DC to find a Nissan Delaer that sell's
leafs.

I had a friend very interested in getting a leaf, but he chickend out when
he found he would have to drive 25 miles to a Nissan dealer for all
service since the Annapolis one of course does not service them either.  I
suggested EV's need only 10% of the service of an ICE and so service of
tires and wipers can be done by any dealer... but I can understand why he
was concerned..

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Keeland via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 9:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Bobby Keeland
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anti-EV dealer

I asked our local Nissan dealership (Opelousus Louisiana) about looking at
a Leaf. He said that they had one a few years ago but it did not sell so
they shipped it to another dealership.
Several years ago we asked a salesman at the Ford dealership (Lafayette
Louisiana) about getting an Escape hybrid. He spent a lot of time trying
to explain why hybrid cars were a bad idea in the hot South. He pushed us
to buy an ICE Explorer so we left.
BobK

On Sep 27, 2017 5:35 AM, "Chris Tromley via EV"  wrote:

> Had an interesting encounter at the Mitsubishi dealer last night.  I
> had been in the night before to drop of my i-MiEV to reset an errant
> SRS
> (airbag) light.  I kindly older gent in a dealer logo shirt helped me
> take care of that.  Last night to pick it up the same guy came out as
> I was going in, and he stopped me to ask how I liked my car.  I told
> him I loved it, but didn't press the issue because I wan't to get back
home.
>
> Turns out he owns the place.  He informed me (in the most friendly,
> car dealer kind of way), that he refuses to sell the i-MiEV there.
> The short version of his reasoning is that whenever he gets an
> electric trade-in (even the Toyotas!), the batteries are toast and
> they're "running on the engine only."  He "just doesn't want to see
> the customers get hurt."  (And BTW, the only plug-ins we get here in
> PA are full electric.  And I'm pretty sure my i-MiEV is one of maybe 3
> that he's ever seen.)
>
> I was being as polite as possible, but I must have given him a "that
> makes no sense at all' sort of expression.  He then proceeded to tell
> me that the Space Station has 7000 - 8000 lbs of batteries, which they
> need because they "just keep going through them" - they're just not
> reliable enough.  He saw he was getting no traction with me so he
> nicely but abruptly broke off the conversation.
>
> Just for a giggle I googled when I got home.  At
> https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/01/spacewalkers-
> upgrading-iss-batteries/
> I found that the ISS batteries are NiH2 and they're very reliable but
> they're reaching the end of their lives.  So they swapped some out for
> lithium this year, and those have vastly improved performance and
> energy density.
>
> Is this typical of the looney-toons crapola people have to deal with
> when buying an EV?  Seriously - that was some truly 'out-there' BS he
> was shoveling, and he did so as if it was as evident as the sky being
blue.
>
> We humans have SO much evolving yet to do.
>
> Chris
> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
> URL:  attachments/20170927/7e9efcaf/attachment.html>
> 

Re: [EVDL] Solar powered RV

[ROBERT via EV]

Mike, you may have hit upon an interesting concept.  In Tucson and Phoenix, the 
utility companies are charging an extra fee if you have solar panels.  By using 
a set of mobile solar panels, you may avoid these charges and numerous other 
regulations such as local permits.  Need to check the regulations.  I would bet 
that the "powers that be" have missed the use of mobile solar panels.



From: EV  on behalf of Mike Scott via EV 

Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 9:27 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mike Scott
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar powered RV

My little trailer has 800W on the roof and is grid tied while it's in the
driveway. I went with this inverter due to the size of the array:
https://amazon.com/gp/product/B00XJCVC44/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8=1
Amazon.com: SolarEpic 1000W Grid Tie Inverter MPPT Stackable Pure Sine Wave 
10.8-30V Solar Input 90V-140V Output Fit For 12V Solar Panel: Patio, Lawn & 
Garden
amazon.com
Amazon.com: SolarEpic 1000W Grid Tie Inverter MPPT Stackable Pure Sine Wave 
10.8-30V Solar Input 90V-140V Output Fit For 12V Solar Panel: Patio, Lawn & 
Garden



I got tired of unscrewing wires from the big terminal strips (12-32 screws,
who did that??) so I could adjust for different amounts of sun when keeping
the lead-acid batteries topped up. Now I have a bank of DPST switches from
the auto parts store so each panel can go the the charge controller or to
the grid tie inverter. I'd sure like to find a circuit to selectively
switch the panels over based on battery voltage... In summertime a 50W
panel will fill the batts each day after I heat my coffee in the microwave.
That's a second inverter that just takes 12V and makes 120VAC for the
microwave. Had to use my EV battery cable making skills for the 1 or 2 AWG
wires feeding that!

Stand alone the loads are the microwave and refrigerator (10A almost
continuously), plus LED lights, radio and a few fans, one of which is in
the refrigerator vent and another is in the roof vent. Both those fans will
come on if it gets too hot and on hot days it took about 100W to keep the
batts up. Still hit 100 degrees inside. Time for new screens...

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 7:24 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> > Solar RV.
> > I saw this and realized our solar future is very close.
> https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/1/16241030/electric-rv-
[https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/vkrhGyF6kYydgjQST_vFdBLvUwY=/0x131:1000x655/fit-in/1200x630/cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9161353/dethleffs_ehome_concept_41.jpg]

All-electric motorhome is completely covered in solar 
panels
www.curbed.com
The Dethleffs e.home Type C motorhome combines a zero-emissions powertrain with 
tons of smart technologies inside.


> motorhome-dethleffs-camper Lawrence Rhodes
>
> It brags of 3 kW of solar arrays, but that is on all sides.  Only one side
> will see sun so the max power is about 1 kW max.  And the panels on the
> door and openable panels are not real, since the edges do not even include
> complete cells.
>
> Also I question the logic of cells on the bottom of the front overhang.  A
> lot of hype  but is the future.
>
> ANYTHING that sits in the sun allday should have solar panels on it.  Grid
> tie while sitting int he driveway and battery when camping.
>
>
> I just bought a grid-tie inverter designed for 12v solar panels for $67
> bucks.  But it is only good for 12v panels (Peak voltage of 28v max).  They
> did not say that in the add, just called it a 300W GT inevrter.  So I had
> to order another one that was 20-60 VDC that is good for the more common
> home solar panels.
>
> Bob
> WB4APR
> -- next part --
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> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>
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UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (rendered)> Tesla's classic, sleek pickup e-truck machismo-design (v)

[ROBERT via EV]

If the Tesla pickup is anything like the artist rendering shown on this website 
then it ain't no pickup.  Remember what Frog Horn Leg Horn used to say "Boy do 
I look like a chicken".



From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:37 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (rendered)> Tesla's classic, sleek pickup e-truck 
machismo-design (v)



https://www.autoblog.com/2017/09/07/tesla-pickup-truck-rendered/
[https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims3/GLOB/crop/800x450+0+0/resize/800x450!/format/jpg/quality/85/http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/7f74a5be42b7aa596b287650917c8286/205641408/Tesla_Pickup.jpg]

Tesla pickup truck rendered - 
Autoblog
www.autoblog.com
A Tesla pickup truck is coming. Tesla CEO Elon Musk hasn't revealed a lot of 
details about it, but back in April, he said we could expect it in "18 to 24 
months ...


Tesla pickup truck rendered
Sep 7th 2017  John Beltz Snyder

[images
http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/7f74a5be42b7aa596b287650917c8286/205641408/Tesla_Pickup.jpg

[http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/7f74a5be42b7aa596b287650917c8286/205641408/Tesla_Pickup.jpg]


https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims?crop=800%2C449%2C0%2C0=85=jpg=716%2C402_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fo.aolcdn.com%2Fhss%2Fstorage%2Fmidas%2Fdf02a63836cc815af5055523d00684e0%2F205641412%2Fdims.jpg=a1acac3e1b3290917d92=f2afd0bc2de9cc96e66ddd36f77a7fdca339242e


video  flash
]

It combines Tesla's sleek design language with classic pickup machismo

A Tesla pickup truck is coming. Tesla CEO Elon Musk hasn't revealed a lot of
details about it, but back in April, he said we could expect it in "18 to 24
months," which would put the reveal somewhere around late 2018 or early
2019. In the meantime, other companies are taking initiative to unveil their
own electric pickups. Workhorse is taking commercial orders for its W15
range extended electric work truck, and Havelaar unveiled its Bison EV
pickup in Canada this spring. Most recently, Bollinger Motors took the wraps
off its battery-powered B1 sport utility truck, which combines off-road
utility with the efficiency of an electric powertrain. Now Tesla, it seems,
has to play catch-up.

But what would a Tesla pickup look like? The electric automaker has made a
name for itself by blending luxury with performance and cutting-edge
technology, all things we'd expect in a truck offering, as well. These
renderings from artist Andrei Avarvarii give us a glimpse of how Tesla
pickup could look in the flesh.

Tesla Pickup Truck

Its front fascia blends a number of familiar Tesla features, and uses a
similar grille design to that of the pre-facelift model S, though freshened
up a bit with a livelier shape. The headlights are instantly recognizable
and the hood is a macho take on the swoopier lids of the current Teslas. A
rising beltline and big Turbine wheels give it a distinctively sporty look.
The stamped tailgate and flared fenders give this otherwise mold-breaking
truck a whiff of pickup traditionalism.

Of course, we'd expect a truck from Tesla to offer different battery
capacities. It would also make sense for it to serve as a mobile power
device, and we'd love to see electrical outlets in the bed and up in the
frunk, where one would naturally store their (Tesla branded?) power tools.
[© autoblog.com]




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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[ROBERT via EV]

"I beg to differ. Most of the early battery chargers and controllers were built 
with generic parts that are still widely available. There was little or no 
software in the way, as they didn't *have* microcomputers running them. 
Schematics can usually be found quite easily on the web, either in the old 
service manuals or ones that someone has reverse-engineered and posted."


Lee, you are correct; however, the early BC and controllers were inefficient 
and would not be acceptable for a present day EV conversion.  Same applies to 
the GE EV1 controller.  My comment concerned the low value of a 10 year old DC 
EV conversion and the difficulty in maintaining the system.  As to easy of 
troubleshooting an older EV just read the on going discussion "Slow due to 96V 
pack".  This system was used on a lot of early EV conversions and the knowledge 
base is still limited and conflicted.


It has been and still is my opinion that someone needs to design an open source 
PFC battery charger and 200KW motor controller with direct torque control.  I 
have always felt the EAA should have sponsored and supported a technical group 
for this purpose.  I started working with the EV group about 15 years ago.  No 
production EV was available.  The only choose was a conversion.  EV equipment 
was limited and many people like you developed some equipment; however, 
national support was limited and no central repository for documentation was 
available.  In my opinion, this has hurt/killed the EV conversion market.  As a 
compliment to you and others who developed early EV equipment, we all thank 
you.  However, the big boys (car companies) have won.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 4:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

From: ROBERT via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>"You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some 
>automaker's proprietary security stuff."  That said; however, on older 
>conversions and on most conversions the conversion documentation is very weak 
>and documentation on the individual components is limited or non-exist.  Many 
>companies that made battery chargers, motor controllers, meter, and other 
>electronic devices had limited documentation or proprietary documentation and 
>never a schematic or software source code.  I would rather hack a production 
>EV product than reverse engineer or troubleshoot a product from a company that 
>was out of business.  A good example is the original EV1 hardware.  Try to 
>work on that stuff.  Its value is nil.

I beg to differ. Most of the early battery chargers and controllers were built 
with generic parts that are still widely available. There was little or no 
software in the way, as they didn't *have* microcomputers running them. 
Schematics can usually be found quite easily on the web, either in the old 
service manuals or ones that someone has reverse-engineered and posted.

If by "EV1" you mean the GM EV1 electric car, then you're right; its 
controller, charger, and associated systems are essentially undocumented and 
unfixable -- just the way GM wanted it.

But if you mean the GE EV1 EV controllers, they are eminently repairable and 
hackable. Full service manuals with schematics are available. Virtually every 
part can be easily replaced with basic tools. There is *no* software to get in 
the way.

I would much rather fix a Curtis 1231 EV controller than a GM Dolphin 
controller.

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[ROBERT via EV]

"You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some 
automaker's proprietary security stuff."  That said; however, on older 
conversions and on most conversions the conversion documentation is very weak 
and documentation on the individual components is limited or non-exist.  Many 
companies that made battery chargers, motor controllers, meter, and other 
electronic devices had limited documentation or proprietary documentation and 
never a schematic or software source code.  I would rather hack a production EV 
product than reverse engineer or troubleshoot a product from a company that was 
out of business.  A good example is the original EV1 hardware.  Try to work on 
that stuff.  Its value is nil.



From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 5:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

On 10 Sep 2017 at 22:16, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> They are old technology which has no place in the brush less motor
> world of today.

Yes, but they have an upside:

You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some
automaker's proprietary security stuff.

If the motor or controller craps out, you can replace it (or them) with
whatever new unit(s) you want.  Same with the DC:DC, brake vacuum pump, and
so on.  Same with the battery. You can upgrade or downgrade any component at
will.  You can get parts from any source, not just the dealer.  You won't
have the car rejecting some junkyard or generic part you put in because it
isn't "registered" with the body computer, or whatever.

There seems to be a large and growing "hacking" (in a good way) community
devoted to some production EVs, but even those are still much more locked
down and opaque than any conversion.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Pumping the amperes?

[ROBERT via EV]

This battery tester may do the job.

http://www.revolectrix.com/pl8_specs_tab.htm

[http://www.revolectrix.com/images/PL8EC5.fea.jpg]

Revolectrix
www.revolectrix.com
For Battery types: Lithium Polymer (1s to 8s balanced, 1s to 2s unbalanced), 
Lithium Ion (1s to 8s balanced, 1s to 2s unbalanced), Lithium Manganese (1s to 
8s ...





From: EV  on behalf of fred via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 3:26 PM
To: via EV
Subject: [EVDL] Pumping the amperes?

I've searched the world (wide web) over, but haven't been able to pin down the 
correct specifics to accomplish my goal. I'm hoping someone here has that 
valuable commodity known as experience and can better advise and/or direct me.
I have 180AH LiFePO4 cells that I want to test over an extended period of time. 
I have an R/C class charger unit, almost perfect for my requirements, but it 
tops out at 100AH on the charge sequence. It also "bottoms out" at the same 
value on the discharge sequence. It's exactly what I need, a device to cycle 
the batteries, measuring the energy in both directions, but for the 100AH limit.
Does anyone have suggestions regarding a more suitable device? Even in the R/C 
world, the limits are so low, but also not something easily found in searches.
Suggestions for search terms would be useful too!
thanksfred
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Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

[ROBERT via EV]

I agree with you 100% about your design approach with relays.  I took the same 
approach.  I see the same issues with out sourced and China designs.  In 
addition, US management has said to their engineering staff, if they can do it 
then you do it.  I fought this battle at numerous design reviews.  Therefore, I 
am not surprised that this Smart Fortwo? burn to a crisp.  As far as UL, UL is 
not what they used to be.  Things changed when the US changed to NRTLs.  In 
order to compete for business, the labs have gotten cozy with businesses.


From: Lee Hart 
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:28 PM
To: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

ROBERT wrote:
> Lee, you are correct. I agree; however, I would never use a relay on an EVSE.
> But that just me. I have a motor control (with correct size heater) on my
> outside fountain pump (1/6 HP).

Hi ROBERT,

All I can say is that both Nissan and Toyota used relays in their 120vac EVSEs,
and both are UL listed. That means they satisfied UL that they are safe.

I worked for Robertshaw and Honeywell for well over a decade, designing controls
for large home appliances and furnaces. In all but the highest power ones, we
used relays.

But they weren't your run-of-the-mill cheap relays; they were ones with a long
list of safety approvals and testing. And, we often had backup systems in place
to detect a welded relay contact and stop operation some other way. For example,
TWO relays in series, with logic that tested each one individually before
closing both to energize the load.

One thing that saddens me is that large amount of such "intrinsically safe"
design has gone out the window as companies weaken the regulations and outsource
everything to countries where safety testing is weak or nonexistent.
Manufacturers now get controls from China that do things that would NEVER be
tolerated in a US product.

--
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
-- Dalai Lama
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric 
vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance 
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Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

[ROBERT via EV]

I ask again.  Is it a relay or a contactor?  And before you answer, remember 
that a relay is tested to a different set of requirements than a contactor.

The problem with a solid state relay is not the failure mode but the fact that 
a solid state device always has some level of leakage current.  In other words, 
a SSD cannot provide complete isolation from a source.  Have you every seen a 
UL listed (UL489) solid state branch circuit protection device?



From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Robert,

full galvanic isolation requires a mechanical relay in the EVSE,

as the failure mode of a "solid state relay" (fancy words for
essentially a transistor) is to fail "ON" (shorted).

That is not an acceptable failure mode when the point of the EVSE is to
disconnect power in failure situations.

Cor.



From: ROBERT [mailto:bhensle...@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:09 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?



Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting
the 240V supply."
  Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay?






From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via
EV 
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?



I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was
the connection
between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire
would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of
the cord appears undamaged.
However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a
sleeve, the tube-like thingy
that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE
traveled over the *outside* of
the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which
then lit the car up.
The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is
directy under the
charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have
burned off their tires,
in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been
around 1000 deg C inside the fire.
That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the
cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back
to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward
direction...

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
> As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
> can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
> If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
> the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing
> overheating of the relay or even starting a fire.

Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps
catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the
car's on-board charger.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE
visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a
nearby vehicle on fire in this way.

I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos
clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside
for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself
appears undamaged.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

[ROBERT via EV]

Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 
240V supply."
  Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay?



From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was
the connection
between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire
would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of
the cord appears undamaged.
However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a
sleeve, the tube-like thingy
that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE
traveled over the *outside* of
the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which
then lit the car up.
The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is
directy under the
charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have
burned off their tires,
in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been
around 1000 deg C inside the fire.
That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the
cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back
to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward
direction...

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
> As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
> can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
> If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
> the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing
> overheating of the relay or even starting a fire.

Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps
catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the
car's on-board charger.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE
visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a
nearby vehicle on fire in this way.

I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos
clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside
for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself
appears undamaged.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after new pack install: cold weather package...

[ROBERT via EV]

A battery cut off switch with only weak mechanical specs.  No maximum number of 
switching operations, etc. Now, that is interesting.


From: EV  on behalf of damon henry via EV 

Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:37 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after 
new pack install: cold weather package...

Hi Cor,


I'm not sure how much help you will get on a proper solution as you are kind of 
out there on the bleeding edge with the Leaf battery replacement thing and 
usually the one providing the answers :)


A possible hack might be installing a battery cutoff switch for the 12 volt 
battery.  Harbor Freight sells them for $8.

https://www.harborfreight.com/battery-cutoff-switch-63425.html
[https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_27328.jpg]

Battery Cutoff Switch - Harbor Freight 
Tools
www.harborfreight.com
Amazing deals on this Battery Cut Off Switch at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & 
low prices.




Damon



From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 6:11:47 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after new 
pack install: cold weather package...

OK, I did something to my Leaf that I need to get fixed, because now the
Leaf is charging the 12V battery whenever the car should be asleep,

as a result it is losing charge from the main pack.

It started two days ago when I removed the new (warranty replacement
battery) from this 2012 Leaf SL with cold weather package.

I do not know why it has a cold weather package, being in California it
never gets below freezing in a car so a cold weather package is quite
odd, but anyhow.

I installed a 2011 battery, apparently without cold weather package
knowledge in the LBC.

Since then, every time the car is supposed to sleep, it starts blinking
the 3rd charging LED and is actually charging the 12V battery to 14.4V
continuously,

resulting in 1 mile range loss every hour.

Anybody have a clue how to get the car to stop being confused about the
cold weather package?

Does the LBC need to be reprogrammed? I can modify the configuration
(serial) memory of the LBC, if I know what to change.

Or should I have the car's computer reprogrammed to tell it to forget
about the cold weather package? I do not need it!

Don't really want to pull the 12V battery contact off every time I want
to park the car more than a day and the energy loss

is quite a waste as well...

Any Leaf experts out there?
Cor.



BTW, the model nrs of the new 2017 battery that I removed and the 2011
battery that I installed:

2017 battery: 295B09RB9D

2011 battery: 295B03NA0A

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Re: [EVDL] article: Lightyear unveils solar-powered car with a 500-mile driving range

[ROBERT via EV]

Seeing is believing.


From: EV  on behalf of Paul Wujek via EV 

Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 6:11 PM
To: EV
Subject: [EVDL] article: Lightyear unveils solar-powered car with a 500-mile 
driving range

article:
http://inhabitat.com/lightyear-unveils-solar-powered-car-with-a-500-mile-driving-range/
[http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2017/06/lightyear_solar_car_0001-706x369.jpg]

Lightyear unveils solar-powered car with a 500-mile driving 
range
inhabitat.com
A little known Dutch start up called Lightyear has just unveiled plans for a 
solar-powered electric car that has a 500 mile driving range.



company site: https://www.lightyear.one - €119,000:


--
Paul Wujek
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170609

[ROBERT via EV]

I used to stay at the Equatorial when I went to Penang, Malaysis.  Nice hotel.  
Good to hear they installed an EV charger.  Intel has a semiconductor plant in 
this area.



http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Four-L3-415V-3phase-22kW-EVSE-Hotel-Equatorial-Penang-my-td4687023.html
Electric Vehicle Discussion List - Four L3 415V 3phase 22kW EVSE 
@Hotel_Equatorial_Penang.my
electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com
Four L3 415V 3phase 22kW EVSE @Hotel_Equatorial_Penang.my. 
http://www.thestar.com.my/metro/community/2017/06/01/charging-ahead-with-green-move-equatorial-is-first-penang-hotel-to-have-bays-for-elect...


Four L3 415V 3phase 22kW EVSE @Hotel_Equatorial_Penang.my
Charging ahead with green move
HOTEL Equatorial Penang is the first hotel in the state to have its own
electric vehicle (EV) charging stations. Those who dine or stay at the hotel
in Bukit Jambul ...


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[EVDL] Interesting article

[ROBERT via EV]

Interesting article considering the importance of TVA in TN and the 
conservative nature of TN.  Link was originally posted by the Knoxville EV club.


http://www.climatecentral.org/news/electric-cars-green-grid-tennessee-clean-energy-21467

[http://assets.climatecentral.org/images/made/5_23_17_upton_EV_Mark_Bishop_600_315_s_c1_c_c.jpg]

Electric Cars Becoming Popular As Grid Gets 
Greener
www.climatecentral.org
Electric car owners in Tennessee view climate benefits as nice extras — not as 
key selling points.



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Re: [EVDL] spray on PC board protectant

[ROBERT via EV]

Lee, you are correct about the Dow 1-2577 coating (I like it); however, it is a 
pain to remove and makes troubleshooting difficult.  I have never seen a 
conformal coating that is not a pain to remove.  The best conformal coating is 
applied in a vacuum chamber (no voids in coating); however, it is impossible to 
remove.   Usually, I design a conformal coated board to have a low failure rate 
and low production cost and forget about the repair.


From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 9:44 AM
To: Willie; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] spray on PC board protectant

Willie via EV wrote:
> I'm in the process of testing a bunch of very grungy looking miniBMS cell
> modules. The good ones, I'd like to spray with something to make them more
> weather resistant. Looking for suggestions.

Hi Willie,

Most of the sprays provide pretty weak protection. In an outdoor environment
where rain, fog, and condensation are very likely, I'd suggest a conformal
coating. If nothing on the board is getting hot (no heatsinks)...

I use Dow Corning 1-2577. This is a thick silicone-based conformal coating that
is totally resistant to water and most solvents, and works over a very large
temperature range. You paint or dip the boards in it. It's clear, so you inspect
parts through it. It's soft and rubbery, and can be easily removed if you need
to make repairs.

If you want something cheap, you can also used paraffin. Melt the wax, and paint
or dip the boards in it. It too is clear, and easy to remove if necessary. The
main drawback is that it melts if anything on the board gets hot.
--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric 
vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance 
electric ...


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EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org 
...
lists.evdl.org
The Electric Vehicle Discussion List is a forum for discussing the current 
state of the art and future direction of electric vehicles (EVs). We define an 
EV as a ...


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[EVDL] Battery Connections

[ROBERT via EV]

With all the discussion about Tesla batteries, how do they attach all the 
thousands of  batteries together?  Soldering, welding?

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Re: [EVDL] Electric compressor for EV+Battery heating (heat pump)

[ROBERT via EV]

Why re-invent the wheel.  I have some aircraft NICAD batteries.  They have a 
heating pad in each battery box and a thermostat.  Each battery box has a inlet 
and outlet for forced air circulation.  Just buy some of these heating pad.



From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 6:29 PM
To: Marco Gaxiola; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Jukka Järvinen
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric compressor for EV+Battery heating (heat pump)

Marco,
If you are concerned about battery temp in summer, then you can always
Add a fan that pushes air into the box and an exhaust with self-closing flap
At a high (warm) point that will let air out when the fan pressurizes the box.

What others have found is that you try to balance the amount of insulation
Such that the pack will stay warm enough long enough, but not as much insulation
That it will overheat easily, so essentially you need to estimate how much heat
You produce charging and driving and then size the insulation value accordingly.
If this gives an unrealistic solution then active heating (resistive typically 
on
Shore power only) and possibly active cooling (just blowing ambient air through
The box, typically, no A/C for batteries please, we don't need a new EV1.

Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Marco Gaxiola via EV
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 10:49 AM
To: Jukka Järvinen
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric compressor for EV+Battery heating (heat pump)

Thanks for the reply...

its in Norway..

Thanks for the advice. We've been thinking on a heat pump system, but not sure 
if it worths all the complexity of the system to put in the vehicle considering 
heat is for sure gonna to be used during winter, but what about summer time? do 
they use the AC for colling in the summer?

Otherwise, just a resistive heating element would be the simplest way to go?


Marco Gaxiola
energyev.com

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Jukka Järvinen 
wrote:

> What do you consider 'a very cold area in north europe"?
>
> Easy advice for batteries:
> Insulation, insulation, insulation.
>
> :)
>
> For cabin one can direct charger cooling fan to circulate air over night.
> Most important is to keep moist out as people tend to cloth themselves
> during beach weather (-10C) and when it's actually cold (-35C and below).
> It is pretty unconfortable if cabin is too warm (>+18C).
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> to 6. huhtikuuta 2017 klo 22.42 Marco Gaxiola via EV
> 
> kirjoitti:
>
>> I'm helping a friend to design a conversion battery pack for a
>> very cold area in north europe and was wondering if someone here has
>> used an electric AC unit as a heat pump, either for heating up and
>> comfort of the passengers on board, as well; and most important; to
>> keep the battery pack warm enough on blow freezing temperatures.
>>
>> Marco Gaxiola
>> energyev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease - Actually bought non-silicon Silver Ice 710 NS

[ROBERT via EV]

Jay, please keep us up to date.  I would like to know how the Silver Ice 
performs.




From: EV  on behalf of Jay Summet via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 9:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease - Actually bought non-silicon 
Silver Ice 710 NS

For anybody interested, I received a reply from Loctite about the
Silverstrate conductive pads. They have discontinued that product and do
not offer a replacement that is conductive.

I called Timtronics directly and was able to order a 3 cc syringe of the
Silver Ice 710 NS for $43 (+ S/H) over the phone.

For the record, the Silver Ice 710 (without the NS) is a resin based dry
film, and the 710 NS is an oil based wet film.  They both have the same
performance if the film is the same thickness, but the wet film (oil
based) product typically spreads out more, resulting in a thiner film
and better performance.

They recommend the dry film for larger parts where you wouldn't want to
risk oil escaping out the sides, but for smaller parts like the TO-220 /
TO-247 mosfets and diodes I'm using they said that the NS formulation
should work best.

Details about the silver ice at this website:
http://www.timtronics.com/electricallyconductive.htm
Electrically Conductive Thermal Compounds - 
Timtronics.com
www.timtronics.com
Black Ice 700 series are electrically and thermally conductive greases 
engineered with highly conductive fillers, silicone and non silicone formulas. 
Thermal ...



Jay


On 02/28/2017 12:49 AM, ROBERT wrote:
> Sorry Jay.  I did not try to order the material.  I walked down to my
> workshop and found the material that I have used.  It is call Silver Ice
> 710 and is made by Timtronics out of NY.  I had the stuff for a long
> time.  It is a gray grease and is not a change phase material.  I looked
> at the cut sheets on the Loctite and the Silver Ice 710.  Looks like the
> Silver Ice has a better electrical and thermal conductivity than the
> Loctite. Tomorrow I will call my old company and get contact for Loctite.
>
>
>
> 
> *From:* Jay Summet 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2017 7:26 PM
> *To:* ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease
>
> Thanks for that link. Unfortunately, when I tried to order, it turns out
> they are not in stock, have a minimum 53 piece order quantity, and a 5-6
> week shipping delay.
>
> [I also didn't know how many I'd need, because the 1.57 x 1.57 size does
> not have any units on it, so I didn't know if it was mm, cm, or inches.]
>
> Ideally if I was to use Silverstrate, I'd like to buy pre-cut TO-220 and
> TO-247 sized pads for the MOSFETS and DIODES.
>
> Jay
>
> On 02/27/2017 08:24 PM, ROBERT wrote:
>> You can get the Loctite Silverstrate ECF1000 at Diverse Electronics.
>>
>>
>> http://www.diverseelectronics.com/products/Loctite-ECF1000-Silverstrate-AK-Phase-Change-Material-1-57-x-1-57-p7562/
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...


>
> LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 ...
> 
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...


> www.diverseelectronics.com
Shop Electronics Products Online, Electronic Components 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
Diverse Electronics is an authorized electronic components and 
electromechanical parts distributor. In-stock inventory ready to ship. No 
minimums. Shop Today.


> LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal
> interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of
> heat dissipating ...
>
>
>>
>> LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 ...
>> 
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...

Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control

[ROBERT via EV]

Interesting info.  Thanks Bob.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Lawrence Harris via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 8:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control

On my smart ED the regen is a hybrid of these.

When you lift the accelerator pedal it will will begin to regen and slow you 
down.  If you feather the peddle you can coast and on some models there is a 
control that allows you to vary the regen on the accelerator pedal from none to 
some upper limit.  Often on the highway if I am going down hill I press the 
accelerator to speed up and it just reduces the regen.

When you press the brake peddle it will regen more aggressively and slow you 
down while smoothly engaging the friction braking at some point - I don’t 
normally feel the transition.

It does limit regen when the battery is full and that has a weird effect 
something like having wet brakes, you get use to it but sometimes its a mild 
surprise.

Lawrence

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 16:23, ROBERT via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> Excellent info.  This is the method I am thinking of implementing except I 
> will select the regen configuration via the CAN link to the VCU.  Does the 
> truck have wheel speed sensors??  I now wonder how the EV1 did regen.
>
> Thanks for the info.  Bob.
>
>
> 
> From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 3:14 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control
>
> I have a US Electricar truck (there are also sedans based on the Prizm)
> and it has a fully configurable controller.
> You can set the max charge voltage (I m using it now with a Leaf pack,
> some people have used it with NiCd and NiMH and originally it had a Lead
> Acid pack)
>
> You can also configure the regen control.
> Default it uses the automatic shifter positions (since the AC motor has
> a fixed ratio to the wheels and does not need a gear shift, just
> reverse/forward selection) to give different regen levels.
> In normal (Drive) position it does a light regen on throttle up, but
> this can be programmed to be zero if so desired or higher...
> In [2] it regens pretty hard and it feels like a BMW where you can do
> single pedal drive.
> In [1] it even simulates a harder regen, I have not yet experimented
> with that.
>
> If you touch the brakes, it ups the regen even more (configurable)
> before applying friction brakes later in the pedal travel.
>
> You can configure at which regen current the brake lights come one as
> you may hardly ever touch the brake pedal again if you like the [2] gear
> setting
>
> I am enjoying this 1994 marvel of engineering
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
...<http://www.proxim.com/>
www.proxim.com
Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.


> Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
> ...<http://www.proxim.com/>
Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
...<http://www.proxim.com/>
www.proxim.com
Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.


> www.proxim.com<http://www.proxim.com>
> Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
> bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.
>
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Corbin Dunn via
> EV
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 9:54 AM
> To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control
>
>
>> Il giorno 27 feb 2017, alle ore 4:22 PM, ROBERT via EV
> <ev@lists.evdl.org> ha scritto:
>>
>> I noticed a series of e-mails on regen and smart cruise control.
> These two topic are closely related.  I have been looking at

Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control

[ROBERT via EV]

Excellent info.  This is the method I am thinking of implementing except I will 
select the regen configuration via the CAN link to the VCU.  Does the truck 
have wheel speed sensors??  I now wonder how the EV1 did regen.

 Thanks for the info.  Bob.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 3:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control

I have a US Electricar truck (there are also sedans based on the Prizm)
and it has a fully configurable controller.
You can set the max charge voltage (I m using it now with a Leaf pack,
some people have used it with NiCd and NiMH and originally it had a Lead
Acid pack)

You can also configure the regen control.
Default it uses the automatic shifter positions (since the AC motor has
a fixed ratio to the wheels and does not need a gear shift, just
reverse/forward selection) to give different regen levels.
In normal (Drive) position it does a light regen on throttle up, but
this can be programmed to be zero if so desired or higher...
In [2] it regens pretty hard and it feels like a BMW where you can do
single pedal drive.
In [1] it even simulates a harder regen, I have not yet experimented
with that.

If you touch the brakes, it ups the regen even more (configurable)
before applying friction brakes later in the pedal travel.

You can configure at which regen current the brake lights come one as
you may hardly ever touch the brake pedal again if you like the [2] gear
setting

I am enjoying this 1994 marvel of engineering

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com
Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
...<http://www.proxim.com/>
www.proxim.com
Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.



This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Corbin Dunn via
EV
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 9:54 AM
To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control


> Il giorno 27 feb 2017, alle ore 4:22 PM, ROBERT via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> ha scritto:
>
> I noticed a series of e-mails on regen and smart cruise control.
These two topic are closely related.  I have been looking at
implementing regen on an AC motor controller.  I found that designing an
AC motor controller in simple comparison to selecting the best regen
implementation.  There are two typical methods for regen.  If you
release the accelerator then start regen.  If you depress the brake then
start regen.  Tesla and Nissan use the first method.

Tesla uses a different method; you must partially depress the throttle
pedal to coast (zero power and zero regen). Regenerative braking gets
progressively stronger as you lighten up off the pedal. It does full
regen when your foot is off the pedal.

>  Some other companies use the brake depress method.  The main
advantages of the release accelerator method is fewer components and it
is simpler.  The disadvantage is with cruise control and down hill and
then up hill.  For in town cruise control, it works OK.  The brake
depress method solves the down hill/up hill problem; however, you do not
get as much regen capacity because at some point the mechanical brake
must be enabled.  Added to the complication is the sequence of firing or
not firing of the IGBTs.  There are numer
> ous technical articles is the SAE journals and electrical journals
proposing IGBT firing sequences that produce better regen.  All
manufactures are trying to extend the range of their vehicles.  At
present, improvements in inverter and component design provide less than
a percent or two of efficiency improvement. Regen is a hot topic because
a good regen implementation could add 10 plus percent in range.  At
present, recoverable energy from regen in 20 - 30 %.  A smart system
that could use GPS data, road map data, traffic light data and AI
programming could recover a huge amount of energy.  If you check current
technical literature, you find that car manufacturers are working on
this type of system.  I am interested in is what current EV do?  Is
fully charging a battery not allowed so that regen can always happen?

In a Tesla, it isn't prevented.

>  Is regen modified when the brake paddle is depressed?

In a Tesla, it isn'

Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease

[ROBERT via EV]

Our Loctite Distributor in Tucson is RS Hughes.  I called them about the 
Silverstrate material.  The material is through the Loctite Electronic 
division.  Google them on the website.  RS Hughes is getting me a quote.  I do 
not know and my previous company's production manager could not locate a source 
for the Silver Ice 710.  The Silver Ice is manufactured by Timtronics in 
Yaphank NY 631-345-6509.  You may want to call them and ask for a distributor.


From: Jay Summet 
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 7:34 AM
To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease

I sent a query to loctite via their website asking for precut TO-220 /
TO-247 Silverstrate pads.

But if a paste like material has better conductivity I'll probably just
go with that.

I wasn't able to find an easy way to order the Silver Ice 710 online, I
may have to just call the manufacturer.

Unfortunately for me, Artic Silver 5 is not electrically conductive or
I'd just go with that, as it's easy to source.

Jay

On 02/28/2017 12:49 AM, ROBERT wrote:
> Sorry Jay.  I did not try to order the material.  I walked down to my
> workshop and found the material that I have used.  It is call Silver Ice
> 710 and is made by Timtronics out of NY.  I had the stuff for a long
> time.  It is a gray grease and is not a change phase material.  I looked
> at the cut sheets on the Loctite and the Silver Ice 710.  Looks like the
> Silver Ice has a better electrical and thermal conductivity than the
> Loctite. Tomorrow I will call my old company and get contact for Loctite.
>
>
>
> 
> *From:* Jay Summet 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2017 7:26 PM
> *To:* ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease
>
> Thanks for that link. Unfortunately, when I tried to order, it turns out
> they are not in stock, have a minimum 53 piece order quantity, and a 5-6
> week shipping delay.
>
> [I also didn't know how many I'd need, because the 1.57 x 1.57 size does
> not have any units on it, so I didn't know if it was mm, cm, or inches.]
>
> Ideally if I was to use Silverstrate, I'd like to buy pre-cut TO-220 and
> TO-247 sized pads for the MOSFETS and DIODES.
>
> Jay
>
> On 02/27/2017 08:24 PM, ROBERT wrote:
>> You can get the Loctite Silverstrate ECF1000 at Diverse Electronics.
>>
>>
>> http://www.diverseelectronics.com/products/Loctite-ECF1000-Silverstrate-AK-Phase-Change-Material-1-57-x-1-57-p7562/
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...


>
> LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 ...
> 
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...


> www.diverseelectronics.com
Shop Electronics Products Online, Electronic Components 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
Diverse Electronics is an authorized electronic components and 
electromechanical parts distributor. In-stock inventory ready to ship. No 
minimums. Shop Today.


> LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal
> interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of
> heat dissipating ...
>
>
>>
>> LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 ...
>> 
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...


>
> LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 ...
> 
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 

Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease

[ROBERT via EV]

Sorry Jay.  I did not try to order the material.  I walked down to my workshop 
and found the material that I have used.  It is call Silver Ice 710 and is made 
by Timtronics out of NY.  I had the stuff for a long time.  It is a gray grease 
and is not a change phase material.  I looked at the cut sheets on the Loctite 
and the Silver Ice 710.  Looks like the Silver Ice has a better electrical and 
thermal conductivity than the Loctite. Tomorrow I will call my old company and 
get contact for Loctite.



From: Jay Summet 
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 7:26 PM
To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease

Thanks for that link. Unfortunately, when I tried to order, it turns out
they are not in stock, have a minimum 53 piece order quantity, and a 5-6
week shipping delay.

[I also didn't know how many I'd need, because the 1.57 x 1.57 size does
not have any units on it, so I didn't know if it was mm, cm, or inches.]

Ideally if I was to use Silverstrate, I'd like to buy pre-cut TO-220 and
TO-247 sized pads for the MOSFETS and DIODES.

Jay

On 02/27/2017 08:24 PM, ROBERT wrote:
> You can get the Loctite Silverstrate ECF1000 at Diverse Electronics.
>
>
> http://www.diverseelectronics.com/products/Loctite-ECF1000-Silverstrate-AK-Phase-Change-Material-1-57-x-1-57-p7562/
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...


>
> LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 ...
> 
LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...


> www.diverseelectronics.com
Shop Electronics Products Online, Electronic Components 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
Diverse Electronics is an authorized electronic components and 
electromechanical parts distributor. In-stock inventory ready to ship. No 
minimums. Shop Today.


> LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal
> interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of
> heat dissipating ...
>
>
> I just did a google search and got this supplier.  This compound is
> electrically conductive.  I would be careful.  Very seldom have I used a
> conductive thermal compounds.  I would check conductivity between the
> lead and the device.  And for sure, I would check conductivity after I
> installed the Diodes and Mosfets.
>
>
> 
> *From:* EV  on behalf of Jay Summet via EV
> 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2017 6:13 PM
> *To:* ev@lists.evdl.org
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease
>
> That depends upon your application. Between the controller's outside and
> the base plate, I agree with you.
>
> However, I'm using this between the MOSFETS and DIODES and the interior
> heatsync, which also doubles as one of the power rails. The circuit is
> designed such that the mosfets and diode cases must be electrically
> connected to the heatsync. (The heatsync is electrically isolated from
> the case by a SiPad.)
>
> So I'm looking specifically for something that will conduct electricity
> AND heat. (The MOSFET's and DIODES are connected via a screw, which will
> conduct electricity, but I figure the lower the resistance the better.)
>
> The carbon grease is electrically and thermally conductive, but it
> appears to be designed for switch contacts more than simiconductor
> heatsync applications, and is probably not as conductive as a silver
> grease, so I'm still poking around looking at what my options are to
> purchase.
>
>
> Jay
>
> On 02/27/2017 04:55 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
>> Hi folks
>> Heat sink grease should be NON conductive electrically but thermally 
>> conductive white grease.  You can also use thermosil less thermally 
>> conductive but less messy or Kapton.
>> Best regards
>> Mark
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease

[ROBERT via EV]

You can get the Loctite Silverstrate ECF1000 at Diverse Electronics.


http://www.diverseelectronics.com/products/Loctite-ECF1000-Silverstrate-AK-Phase-Change-Material-1-57-x-1-57-p7562/

LOCTITE ECF1000 Silverstrate AK Phase Change Material 1.57 
...
www.diverseelectronics.com
LOCTITE Silverstrate is an electrically conductive phase change thermal 
interface material suitable for use between a heat sink and a variety of heat 
dissipating ...



I just did a google search and got this supplier.  This compound is 
electrically conductive.  I would be careful.  Very seldom have I used a 
conductive thermal compounds.  I would check conductivity between the lead and 
the device.  And for sure, I would check conductivity after I installed the 
Diodes and Mosfets.


From: EV  on behalf of Jay Summet via EV 

Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 6:13 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silicon heat sink grease

That depends upon your application. Between the controller's outside and
the base plate, I agree with you.

However, I'm using this between the MOSFETS and DIODES and the interior
heatsync, which also doubles as one of the power rails. The circuit is
designed such that the mosfets and diode cases must be electrically
connected to the heatsync. (The heatsync is electrically isolated from
the case by a SiPad.)

So I'm looking specifically for something that will conduct electricity
AND heat. (The MOSFET's and DIODES are connected via a screw, which will
conduct electricity, but I figure the lower the resistance the better.)

The carbon grease is electrically and thermally conductive, but it
appears to be designed for switch contacts more than simiconductor
heatsync applications, and is probably not as conductive as a silver
grease, so I'm still poking around looking at what my options are to
purchase.


Jay

On 02/27/2017 04:55 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> Hi folks
> Heat sink grease should be NON conductive electrically but thermally 
> conductive white grease.  You can also use thermosil less thermally 
> conductive but less messy or Kapton.
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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[EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control

[ROBERT via EV]

I noticed a series of e-mails on regen and smart cruise control.  These two 
topic are closely related.  I have been looking at implementing regen on an AC 
motor controller.  I found that designing an AC motor controller in simple 
comparison to selecting the best regen implementation.  There are two typical 
methods for regen.  If you release the accelerator then start regen.  If you 
depress the brake then start regen.  Tesla and Nissan use the first method.  
Some other companies use the brake depress method.  The main advantages of the 
release accelerator method is fewer components and it is simpler.  The 
disadvantage is with cruise control and down hill and then up hill.  For in 
town cruise control, it works OK.  The brake depress method solves the down 
hill/up hill problem; however, you do not get as much regen capacity because at 
some point the mechanical brake must be enabled.  Added to the complication is 
the sequence of firing or not firing of the IGBTs.  There are numer
 ous technical articles is the SAE journals and electrical journals proposing 
IGBT firing sequences that produce better regen.  All manufactures are trying 
to extend the range of their vehicles.  At present, improvements in inverter 
and component design provide less than a percent or two of efficiency 
improvement. Regen is a hot topic because a good regen implementation could add 
10 plus percent in range.  At present, recoverable energy from regen in 20 - 30 
%.  A smart system that could use GPS data, road map data, traffic light data 
and AI programming could recover a huge amount of energy.  If you check current 
technical literature, you find that car manufacturers are working on this type 
of system.  I am interested in is what current EV do?  Is fully charging a 
battery not allowed so that regen can always happen?  Is regen modified when 
the brake paddle is depressed?  Under what situations is regen disabled?  Do 
all EV have a regen disabled light?  Do all EV have a regen d
 isable switch?  Which EVs only use release of accelerator method?  Does regen 
adaptive based on similar trips?  The questions are numerous.

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Re: [EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

[ROBERT via EV]

Corbin, a braking resistor is typical for industrial variable frequency drives 
(VFD) and older SCR drives.  A VFD connected to a utility service is usually 
not allowed to regen into the line.  As an example.  If one installs a VFD on a 
large rotating mass such as a molder.  When the mold breaks center, it forces 
back EMF into the line.  A braking resistor is used to absorb this energy.  
Used to be very common.  Not so much today.


From: EV  on behalf of Corbin Dunn via EV 

Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 12:49 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

(resend to the list..)

Hey Roland,

That is interesting! Did it take wheel speed information from individual 
wheels? I think that is what Robert is trying to achieve. Even so…you’d have to 
somehow convert that sensor information into input into a controller. I don’t 
think anyone has done that (and I still question the futility of doing this 
effort — it would be a fun project, but in practice I don’t think it will help 
with stability).

corbin

> Il giorno 27 feb 2017, alle ore 7:42 AM, Roland  > ha scritto:
>
> My first EV, a 1977 vehicle that had a Cable Form motor controller had 
> Regenerative Braking.  It was control by a shunt that was install on the 
> controller board.  The wire tap off the shunt could be move to different 
> positions for violent to normal braking.  When the current went to 0 amps, it 
> trigger the Thyristors drive semiconductors to turn off the main drive 
> Thyristors and turn on a by pass reverse direction Thyristor  and contactors 
> to a very large resistor and/or to the batteries.
>
> This info is from my controller manual by John J. Morrison M.I.M.C., C.Eng., 
> F.I.E.E.  Electronic Control of Battery Electric Vehicles.
>
> Roland

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Re: [EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

[ROBERT via EV]

First some criticisms:  (1) About three weeks ago I posted a question "How does 
regenerative braking work"  No one had an answer.  Now numerous people appear 
to know something about regenerative braking. (2) My original question was "has 
anyone installed a wheel speed sensor on an EV conversion that was not 
originally equipped with a wheel speed sensor"  I did not state my reason for 
the question because of what would follow.  I answered one of the e-mails and 
stated my reason and got a lot of replies but no answer to my question.


I posted this same question to the 914 Club website.  Dr914 stated that Porsche 
installed wheel speed sensors in the CV joints in early models for cruise 
control.


Response to the replies:

Congratulations to Lee Hart.  He understands why all car manufacturers use 
wheel speed sensors data for regenerative braking.

"If you're going to use regenerative braking to provide this same feature, your
controller needs to know the speed of each wheel. Otherwise, one wheel can be
slipping, and you'd lose braking in *both* wheels (probably rather suddenly)."

Peri Hartman

"First, I wonder what Tesla does. If they do it, it's probably well
thought out."

Quote from a Tesla test engineering report:

"Safety: Negative torque applied to the rear wheels can cause a car to become 
unstable. Since regen braking is a source of negative torque, the Tesla 
Roadster uses the traction control system to limit regen if the rear wheels 
start to slip. I was part of the team that developed and verified this safety 
feature on a frozen lake in Arvidsjaur, Sweden."

Corbin Dunn

"For some reason, this doesn't make sense to me. You are saying that you need a 
speed sensor on each wheel, or else regen would create instability. You could 
say the same thing for forward power applied by the motor.  I think this would 
only matter if you had a controller on each wheel -- which, maybe you do...I'm 
not exactly sure what you are trying to do without way more information."

You are incorrect.

Cor van de Water

"He is trying to create a traction control device AKA ABS controller by
verifying that each wheel is spinning for application of regen (and, I
presume also acceleration as that typically puts more torque on each
wheel from the controller than the regen braking part)"

I will not install an ABS system because of the liability. I will use the 
original mechanical brakes with upgrades.  In addition, I will install a brake 
pedal positioner sensor (analog) and digital signal for brake activation.  The 
regen will occur between 0 - 6 degrees of pedal movement.  After 6 degrees the 
mechanical brake will take over.  I will be able to select between accelerator 
pedal regen (like the Tesla and Leaf) or brake pedal regen (I think this system 
is used by BMW)

"More than likely the OEM ABS (tone ring) wheel sensors and/or suspension 
compression measurement will do the job."

Great, now tell me the tone wheel, hub assembly, or bearing assembly with built 
in tone wheel that I can use on a Porsche 914.





From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 5:26 PM
To: corbin dunn; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

corbin dunn via EV wrote:
> For some reason, this doesn't make sense to me. You are saying that you
> need a speed sensor on each wheel, or else regen would create instability.
> You could say the same thing for forward power applied by the motor.  I
> think this would only matter if you had a controller on each wheel --
> which, maybe you do...I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to do
> without way more information.

I think he's basically correct. Think about anti-lock brakes. Each wheel has its
own speed sensor, and controls the braking to that particular wheel to keep it
from skidding. If you're on ice or other poor-traction conditions, there can be
a considerable difference in how much braking force each wheel can handle.

If you're going to use regenerative braking to provide this same feature, your
controller needs to know the speed of each wheel. Otherwise, one wheel can be
slipping, and you'd lose braking in *both* wheels (probably rather suddenly).

--
Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric 
vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance 
electric ...


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Re: [EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

[ROBERT via EV]

See my previous reply.


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 4:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

I think some vehicles have the speed sensor on the transmission output
shaft, since that has a fixed relation to vehicle speed with the diff
ratio and wheel circumference. If the transmission is removed, no speed
sensing is available until you mount a wheel speed sensor or a pickup on
the motor if it has fixed reduction - you can use the latter for the
dual purpose of protecting the motor from overspeed if you have a DC
series motor and speed sensing. If you have an AC motor, the inverter
knows motor RPM and if you have fixed reduction then you can calculate
speed.
My truck has a very simple relation of motor RPM to speed since it has a
transmission that is locked in second gear (fixed reduction) so the
motor reaches its 9000 RPM redline at 72 MPH, so every 125 RPM is 1 MPH.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com
Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
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bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.



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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Corbin Dunn via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 2:35 PM
To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

A wheel speed sensor? You found a car without a speedometer? I mean, it
is proportional. I removed my tach gauge once I knew what speed produced
what RPM.

corbin

> Il giorno 17 feb 2017, alle ore 9:09 AM, ROBERT via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> ha scritto:
>
> Has anyone installed a wheels speed sensor on an EV conversion?  I am
referring to a vehicle that was not originally supplied with a wheel
speed sensor.  Has anyone connected a wheel speed sensor to an  inverter
(AC motor controller)?
>
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[EVDL] Wheel Speed Sensor

[ROBERT via EV]

Has anyone installed a wheels speed sensor on an EV conversion?  I am referring 
to a vehicle that was not originally supplied with a wheel speed sensor.  Has 
anyone connected a wheel speed sensor to an  inverter (AC motor controller)?

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[EVDL] Induction Charging

[ROBERT via EV]

Sounds likes induction charging the same as the EV1.  New technology??


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Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

[ROBERT via EV]

Team of Tesla lawyers to defend prior art.



From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 4:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

Danny Ames via EV wrote:
> Yet another advanced strategy Tesla has come up with to keep Li battery packs 
> from thermal run away and charge safely and quickly.Danny
>
> Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a 
> Series Connected Battery Element (USPTO 9529048)

Man, they sure make it difficult to tell what (if anything) is new or
any different than what people have been doing for decades.

Can anyone find anything in here that's actually a new invention?

--
Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
implement, test, and execute!
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric 
vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance 
electric ...


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Re: [EVDL] Regen on AC Inverter

[ROBERT via EV]

I can conclude from what you say that during regen mode none of the IGBTs are 
energized.   Therefore, only during drive operation are the IGBTs switched.  
Since the car is slowing down during deceleration, the motor RPMs are 
decreasing.  At some point, the voltage generated by the motor will drop below 
the voltage of the battery and the battery will quit charging.  However, the 
motor RPMs are not zero and energy is still being produced by the motor.  Where 
is the energy dissipated?  In the diodes are in the motor winding?




From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 7:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen on AC Inverter

Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV wrote:
> I agree with robert, how the inverter is capable of 'charge the battery' from 
> regen when at very low RPMs?

OK, the first key to understanding is that the six IGBTs each have a
diode connected across it. The six diodes are wired in a standard
3-phase rectifier configuration. (If you didn't have these extra diodes,
you couldn't do regen).

The next key point is that the motor is inductive. Once you start a
current flowing in an inductor, it wants to KEEP flowing even if you
turn off the IGBTs.

OK, so put these two concepts together. The IGBTs start a current
flowing in the winding. Then they are *both* turned off. The inductive
current has no place to go except through the diodes. So the voltage
across the winding will rise until it finds a path -- through an upper
diode, through the battery pack, through a lower diode and back to the
winding.

The direction of this current just happens to be a charging current for
the battery. :-)

> Another doubt I would add is; different than when using the system as
> 'motor' with the 6 IGBTs putting power in a specific sequence on the coils.
>  But how an AC induction motor can work as a generator without any
> 'natural magnets' that would induce energy back on the coils? (Like it
> works on DC generators)

A DC series or shunt motor with no magnets can also work as a generator.

Whether AC or DC, the controller is doing the same thing: It applies a
current to "excite" the field, then quickly uses this field to generate
power before it decays away. Since the field only needs 1-2% of the
power, you can get a lot more power out than you put into the field.

Cor van de Water wrote:
>> An AC motor is by definition a motor that needs 3-phase (or more) AC
>> power.

Well, not exactly. Two-phase, and even single-phase AC motors are very
common.

For that matter, every "DC" motor is really an AC motor, with a built-in
DC-to-AC converter. It's the commutator on a brush-type DC motor, or a
little inverter in a "brushless DC" motor.

>> The direction of power (acceleration or braking) is only
>> determined by the phase (direction) of the current.

That's a bit of an oversimplification, but a good description if you
stay out of what's actually going on inside the controller.

Externally, the phase between the AC voltage and AC current is what
determines whether you are motoring or generating.

But phase loses its meaning on the DC side (battery) and when looking at
the high frequency switching of the controller (10-20 KHz) as it tries
to synthesize a low-frequency (10-120 Hz) AC sinewave.

>> So, an AC controller will always automatically include the ability to do
>> regen.

It's not automatic. First, the controller needs diodes across its
transistors. Those diodes aren't there with bipolar transistors, SCRs,
or IGBTs (though it's pretty common for manufacturers to add them inside
their IGBTs). Diodes are automatically present in MOSFETs (but they are
often rather crappy diodes).

Second, the controller has to be designed or programmed to create and
control the conditions that cause a regen current to flow.

Since it's not a lot more work to add regen to an AC motor controller,
marketing and sales considerations mean it is almost always present.
(The controller is so expensive already that what's a few more dollars).

>> The requirement for example with the Toyota Prius from MY 2004 onward to
>> use a bi-directional boost converter is because the engineers wanted to
>> use a 200V battery as well as have 500V at the inverter to increase
>> power and speed over the 300V that was the battery voltage of the
>> 2001-2003 Prius.

Agreed. It allowed them to cut the pack from 273v to 200v (28 modules
instead of 38). That saved enough money to pay for the boost converter.

Also, the Prius happens to use a brushless DC motor with permanent
magnets (not an induction motor). PM motors have less inductance, so
their ability to boost the voltage to get regen at low RPM is worse.
Thus the boost converter.
--
Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
implement, test, and execute!
--
Lee Hart, 814 

Re: [EVDL] Regen on AC Inverter

[ROBERT via EV]

As always with me yes and no.  I understand the use of a bidirectional buck 
boost inverter for varies battery types or supercap usage.  However, I need 
more info on the switching of the H-Bridge during regen.  An AC inverter has 6 
IGBTs is H-bridge configurations.  Two IGBTs are assigned for each motor phase 
(upper and lower IGBT).  The upper IGBT is never switched on when the lower 
IGBT is energized and vise versa.  A dead time is included between switching.  
By switching the 6 IGBTs in a certain sequence, the 3 phase voltages are 
created.  I understand all this.  What I do not understand is the switching 
sequence that occurs during regen.  In addition, as the vehicle slows down, the 
motor acting as a generator outputs a decreasing voltage because the RPMs are 
decreasing.  The motor/generator is outputting a decreasing 3 phase voltage.  
If the voltage is less than the DC voltage of the battery, there is no 
potential to charge the battery.  How do you get the AC converter to 
 DC to charge the batter?




From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 4:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen on AC Inverter

Robert,
An AC motor is by definition a motor that needs 3-phase (or more) AC
power. The direction of power (acceleration or braking) is only
determined by the phase (direction) of the current.
So, an AC controller will always automatically include the ability to do
regen.

The requirement for example with the Toyota Prius from MY 2004 onward to
use a bi-directional boost converter is because the engineers wanted to
use a 200V battery as well as have 500V at the inverter to increase
power and speed over the 300V that was the battery voltage of the
2001-2003 Prius.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com
Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
...<http://www.proxim.com/>
www.proxim.com
Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.



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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2017 3:10 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Regen on AC Inverter

In order to accomplish regen with an AC inverter on an all electric
vehicle are the IGBTs modulated or is a buck boost circuit added to the
inverter?

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[EVDL] Regen on AC Inverter

[ROBERT via EV]

In order to accomplish regen with an AC inverter on an all electric vehicle are 
the IGBTs modulated or is a buck boost circuit added to the inverter?

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Re: [EVDL] Schneeveis battery load (was: Testing Leaf Modules)

[ROBERT via EV]

Why machine a clamp.  Buy a grounding rod clamp.



From: EV  on behalf of Bill Dube via EV 

Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 12:06 PM
To: John Lussmyer; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Schneeveis battery load (was: Testing Leaf Modules)

Bob Schneeveis had what I thought was the best solution. He had a ~6 ft
section of ~3/4" thinwall stainless steel tube. He put compression
fittings on the end to connect it up to a garden hose. He then machined
two large copper split clamps that slid smoothly over the tube with
large electrical connections on each. He would turn on the water, and
repostion the clamps to attain the desired resistance, tighten the thumb
screws to hold them in position on the tube, then turn on the current
from the battery.

 In went cold water. Out came hot water. It can be set for any load
you desire. Very nifty indeed.

 (Not UL approved. ;-) )

Bill D.

On 12/23/2016 11:04 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> I'm planning on testing the capacity of some Leaf Modules I've picked up.
> Any suggestions for a good 60A or so load for 8V?
>
> --
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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[EVDL] EV Start UP

[ROBERT via EV]

Thanks for the answers.  You guys did great.


However, your emails raised two additional questions:


(1) Since the auxiliary battery is not charged in the ACC position per Cor van 
de Water e-mail and the auxiliary battery may be charged with a roof top solar 
panel per Peri Hartman e-mail, then is the auxiliary battery only charged with 
the car running or when the charger is activated or some other time?

(2) From Cor van de Water e-mail, when is the HV leakage first checked?  Is it 
checked by the BMS system or some other system just prior to starting the car?  
I assume when the car is running some system is checking the HV leakage.

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Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up

[ROBERT via EV]

I can assume from your checking that the HV circuit is not checked for leakage 
in the ACC position.  However, I may be incorrect.  Good response.  Creates 
another question:  Is HV leakage checked by the BMS system of another system?



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 10:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up

Peri,
I have checked my (2011) Leaf with LeafSpy when in Acc mode and it does
not charge the aux battery, I saw the aux battery voltage declining (and
a current out of the battery).
As soon as the car is started *or* the car is charging, then the aux
battery is being maintained by the DC/DC converter from the main pack.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com
Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
...<http://www.proxim.com/>
www.proxim.com
Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.



This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman
via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:46 PM
To: ROBERT
Cc: evdl
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up

Ok, I can answer some of the questions with respect to a Leaf.

1. Acc only: You press the start button without holding down the brake
pedal.

2. Acc charging: yes, heating I don't think so. (However there is a way
to do it remotely through their carwings system, never tried it.)

3. contactors: brake must be pressed while pressing start button

4. Acc only: pretty much everything seems to be working except heat and
drive.

5. don't know, but I would presume so or else the 12v battery would go
dead.

6. same answer as 5.

7. Not sure what you mean by "separately". There are several warnings
that I've seen over the years - low tire pressure, door ajar. There
really isn't much detail presented to the driver so I think you would
need to read the codes off a computer to get what you're looking for.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "ROBERT" <bhensle...@msn.com>
To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>
Cc:
Sent: 22-Dec-16 8:35:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up

>All AC EVs have the same basic components: Propulsion Batteries,
>Auxiliary Battery, HV/Low voltage Converter/Charger, Inverter/Regen
>Unit, AC Motor, Battery Charger, Mechanical Brakes, Throttle Pedal,
>some type of ON/OFF/START switch.  You get in the vehicle do something
>to start the vehicle, put your foot on the throttle and go.  My
>questions are very specific.  What happens when you do the things that
>I ask.  As an example: you get in your vehicle and want to listen to
>the radio while the car is charging.  How do you do it?  Is it possible

>to listen to the radio while you charge the car.  Can you run the
>heater or AC unit? What must you do as a driver/owner to accomplish
>these tasks?  Some vehicles may let you do some things but others may
>not.  If you own a vehicle, what is the vehicle and will it allow the
>tasks and what must you do to answer the questions.
>
>
>---
-
>From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
>Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 6:19 PM
>To: ROBERT; ev@lists.evdl.org
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up
>
>Your questions are clear but your context is not. Are you asking
>- what mass produced EVs do in general?
>- what a specific EV does?
>- what the generally assumed best practices are?
>- what is physically required?
>
>Peri
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "ROBERT via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>Cc:
>Sent: 22-Dec-16 5:14:33 PM
>Subject: [EVDL] EV Start Up
>
> >I ask the question in a previous post "does anyone know the start up
> >sequence for an EV".  As I have seen in past posting the subject was
> >very quickly changed to another subject. In this case, a heater burn
>up
> >issue for the Think City Heater.  Please do not do this again.
>Please,
> >respect the post.  Thanks.
> >
> >I will try again with very specific questions.
> >
> >(1) How do you put an EV in the aux

Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up

[ROBERT via EV]

owing heating or A/C.

(3) Since the inverter is not powered in ACC mode, you do not depress
the brake. In fact, *not* braking while pushing the Power button is how
you put the car in ACC mode. If you brake and push Power, then the car
starts to "Ready".

(4) I don't know for sure, it makes no sense to apply 12V to the
inverter when it is not used, so I expect not.

(5) No
(6) Yes
(7) What do you mean separately? The software runs through a list of
checks. Anything that does not check out and is worthy of reporting gets
reported, so the reports are typically coming in one after the other but
due to the speed of the software, it may appear to the human eye as if
they all happen at the same time. Most reports are not for immediate
diagnosis anyway, just to give a go/nogo indication and then you can
connect a tool to browse through the reported issue and read them one by
one and deal with each one.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access ...
<http://www.proxim.com/>

www.proxim.com<http://www.proxim.com>

Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul,
bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access
points.



This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:15 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EV Start Up

I ask the question in a previous post "does anyone know the start up
sequence for an EV".  As I have seen in past posting the subject was
very quickly changed to another subject. In this case, a heater burn up
issue for the Think City Heater.  Please do not do this again.  Please,
respect the post.  Thanks.

I will try again with very specific questions.

(1) How do you put an EV in the auxiliaries only position?  Does it have
an ACC position as on older ICE car with a key?

(2) When in the ACC only position, can the battery charger be energized?
Can the AC or heater be energized?

(3) Do you need to have the brake pedal depressed to energize the
inverter?  I think this is required to depress the START button.

(4) Is logic power (not HV) applied to the inverter if the car is in the
ACC position.

(5) Is the HV/12VDC converter energized in the ACC position?

(6) Is the HV/12VDC converter energized when the car is charging?

(7) During start up, does the car report warnings and faults separately?



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Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up

[ROBERT via EV]

Thanks, you answered all the question very clearly.  I still need some 
clarification on #7.  Most industrial monitoring and alarm systems prioritize 
faults.  A warning is a malfunction that does not stop the process.  A fault 
will stop some action.  Most ICE cars have a Engine Check Light.  When the 
Check Engine Light illuminates, the car will usually continue to operate; 
however, an error code is stored in the computer.  The same applies to the 
"idiot lights" on a car.  An ICE car shuts down if a major fault occurs.  With 
an EV inverter, it is possible for an IGBT to overheat and the car could be put 
in a lower performance mode but continue to operate.  The car could illuminate 
a warning light is this case.  In addition, an EV inverter could blow an IGBT 
or have a shutdown temperature setting.  Since the auxiliary battery is still 
operational, a fault light could illuminate.  Does an EV have two lights and 
does it prioritize malfunctions?



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 7:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Start Up

Robert,
(1+2) All factory EVs and conversions that I have seen have an ACC key
position.
This position typically does the same as in an ICE: it does not power up
the drivetrain, it only enables some 12V loads such as radio, lights and
cig lighter to name a few, but the aux battery is not charged and
extended time spent in ACC mode will run down the aux battery.
You could modify the ACC mode to engage a relay that powers a battery
charger (off the main pack) to recharge the aux battery. You shift the
risk from running down the aux to the main pack.
AC or heater are typically not enabled in ACC

In case I mis-interpreted your question: if you want to know if the main
pack can be charged in ACC mode then yes - main pack charging is
typically possible in ALL vehicle modes except when "Ready to drive".
Even if the car is off, if you plug in the charger it will typically
power up enough of the car to charge the main pack and also keep the aux
battery maintained.
Some cars allow heating/cooling of the car (even remotely controlled)
and this is very useful when already plugged in to charge the main pack.
Car does not need to be in ACC mode to do this for the production EVs
that have this feature. Conversions typically need to be "Ready" before
allowing heating or A/C.

(3) Since the inverter is not powered in ACC mode, you do not depress
the brake. In fact, *not* braking while pushing the Power button is how
you put the car in ACC mode. If you brake and push Power, then the car
starts to "Ready".

(4) I don't know for sure, it makes no sense to apply 12V to the
inverter when it is not used, so I expect not.

(5) No
(6) Yes
(7) What do you mean separately? The software runs through a list of
checks. Anything that does not check out and is worthy of reporting gets
reported, so the reports are typically coming in one after the other but
due to the speed of the software, it may appear to the human eye as if
they all happen at the same time. Most reports are not for immediate
diagnosis anyway, just to give a go/nogo indication and then you can
connect a tool to browse through the reported issue and read them one by
one and deal with each one.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com
Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
...<http://www.proxim.com/>
www.proxim.com
Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.



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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:15 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EV Start Up

I ask the question in a previous post "does anyone know the start up
sequence for an EV".  As I have seen in past posting the subject was
very quickly changed to another subject. In this case, a heater burn up
issue for the Think City Heater.  Please do not do this again.  Please,
respect the post.  Thanks.

I will try again with very specific questions.

(1) How do you put an EV in the auxiliaries only position?  Does it have
an ACC position as on older ICE car with a key?

(2) When in the ACC only position, can the battery charger be energized?
Can the

[EVDL] EV Start Up

[ROBERT via EV]

I ask the question in a previous post "does anyone know the start up sequence 
for an EV".  As I have seen in past posting the subject was very quickly 
changed to another subject. In this case, a heater burn up issue for the Think 
City Heater.  Please do not do this again.  Please, respect the post.  Thanks.

I will try again with very specific questions.

(1) How do you put an EV in the auxiliaries only position?  Does it have an ACC 
position as on older ICE car with a key?

(2) When in the ACC only position, can the battery charger be energized?  Can 
the AC or heater be energized?

(3) Do you need to have the brake pedal depressed to energize the inverter?  I 
think this is required to depress the START button.

(4) Is logic power (not HV) applied to the inverter if the car is in the ACC 
position.

(5) Is the HV/12VDC converter energized in the ACC position?

(6) Is the HV/12VDC converter energized when the car is charging?

(7) During start up, does the car report warnings and faults separately?



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[EVDL] Sequence of Events

[ROBERT via EV]

Does anyone know the sequence of events when an EV starts?  Example: (1) Turn 
Key ON, (2) High Voltage to 12VDC converter energized, (3) Inverter logic power 
supplies energized, etc


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[EVDL] I want one

[ROBERT via EV]

https://www.powersystemsdesign.com/chinas-nextev-faster-than-tesla/97

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Re: [EVDL] Charging station with amps watts and KWh

[ROBERT via EV]

Please post a link or a source for the EVSE kits.




From: EV  on behalf of Tom Keenan via EV 

Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:30 AM
To: tomw; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station with amps watts and KWh

We built up about a dozen kits that day - my EVSE is still working well also. 
If anyone is interested in having another build party, I'm sure it can be 
arranged.  They take at most about three or four hours to put together. Faster 
folks might take an hour.

Tom Keenan

> On Dec 3, 2016, at 7:02 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:
>
> I think it was list member Tom Keene who organized a build of these around 5
> years ago at their EAA chapter's meeting place in Alameda CA.  I was one of
> the attendees who built a kit. It's still working well.
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Charging-station-with-amps-watts-and-KWh-tp4684701p4684721.html
Electric Vehicle Discussion List - Charging station with amps watts and 
KWh
electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com
Charging station with amps watts and KWh. Hi folks I found a kit for 250 that 
displays amps watts and KWh so I ordered one instead of modifying a charge 
controller without a display like I did before. ...


> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] OT Reversible DC motor controller

[ROBERT via EV]

Lee, Good point about the motor's duty cycle.



From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:58 AM
To: Jan Steinman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Reversible DC motor controller

Jan Steinman via EV wrote:
> Keep in mind that many high-speed motors are designed or adjusted to operate 
> optimally in one direction. The brush location is "advanced" so that the 
> magnetic field is at the optimum location for a particular direction and 
> speed. Running such a motor in reverse often results in arcing or poor 
> performance.
>
> Of course, if the motor was already intended for bi-directional use, it is 
> probably timed neutral, and there's no problem.

I think he said he was using a car seat adjustment motor. They need to
run equally well in both directions, so the brushes are probably at
neutral position. Besides, at 12v brush advance and arcing isn't much of
a problem.

The main concern I have is that a seat adjustment motor is only built
for intermittent duty, and would overheat if run for more than a minute
or so. And, the gears are also likely to be designed for a short life.
The manufacturer doesn't expect it to run more than a few seconds per day.

Something like a windshield wiper motor may be a better candidate. They
are meant to run continuously, so the motor and its gear train have to
be a bit more robust.
--
The problem in this business isn't to keep people from stealing your
ideas: It's to *make* them steal your ideas! -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric 
vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance 
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Re: [EVDL] OT Reversible DC motor controller

[ROBERT via EV]

Michael,  If you do not want to reverse the motor while it is running, you can 
buy a non-reversing controller and install a FWD/OFF/REV switch between the 
controller and the motor.




From: EV  on behalf of Michael Hurley via EV 

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 3:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] OT Reversible DC motor controller

I have a controller question, though it's not for any kind of vehicle. I have 
an Atlas metalworking lathe. I'd like to put a motor on the lead screw to get 
much lower traversing speeds than the lathe's internal gearbox will allow for. 
This is a relatively common modification to these little lathes. I have a 
190RPM 12V DC gearmotor with a stall current of 25A that I'd like to use. It 
was a seat adjustment motor for a car, so it should be plenty torquey enough 
for this job. Does anyone know of an off-the-shelf, continuous-duty, reversing 
controller that would work with this type of motor? I can provide an AC-DC 
power supply to run it off of 110VAC. I just need the controller itself and 
don't really feel up to the job of building my own.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone may be able to provide!
--
   Auf wiedersehen!
Hurley
  __
  "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

  "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
  of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
  women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

  "..No."

  "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

   -Real Genius

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Re: [EVDL] PM motor question

[ROBERT via EV]

Alan, what is the model number of the Gast pump?  I assume the voltage is 12VDC?



From: EV  on behalf of Alan Arrison via EV 

Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] PM motor question

OK you motor gurus. My Gast vacuum pump quit working.

Upon disassembly, I found the two curved ceramic field magnets were
detached from the motor housing.

Needless to say, the motor would not turn with the magnets stuck to the
rotor.

I cannot tell by looking at the inside of the motor housing exactly
where the magnets were positioned.

I am going to guess that it makes a difference where the magnets are
positioned in relationship to where the motor brushes are positioned.

So, if a line is drawn through the center of the two diametrically
opposed field magnets, should a line drawn between the opposed

brushes be inline or perpendicular to the line through the magnets?

Thanks for your help, Al


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Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[ROBERT via EV]

Lee, Excellent comments.  Thank you.  Bob Hensley.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 7:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

ROBERT via EV wrote:
> Maybe it is time we all get a beer, sit back, cool off, relax, and
> take a break.

That's fine. But, we should also expect stormy weather, and start
thinking about how we are going to prepare for it!

> As to the death of EVs, I do not think it will happen because of the
> following:
>
> (1) Tesla has shown that a manufacturer can produce a saleable EV and
> make a profit.  The other auto manufacturers cannot let Tesla be the
> only game in town.

Even though Tesla is the most successful EV producer in the past 50
years, they've only produced a very small number of cars, for a tiny
sliver of the automotive market. They are a smaller player than Porsche,
Ferrari, etc. (whom the auto companies also basically ignore).

Tesla is also not yet profitable. They've reported about a $6/share loss
over the past year. Their best quarter was only a $0.15/share profit.

The Tesla is a great car, and I'm rooting for them as "my team". But I
also have to be realistic and recognize that their chances of surviving
are still pretty slim.

> (2) CA and other places have enacted zero car emission requirements.

Except that these standards were gutted immediately after the last
Republican president took office. It happened before; it could happen again.

> (3) Some people that have purchased EVs as ICE replacements the last
> few years like the cars.

True; but the auto companies dumped them anyway. Remember, car companies
sell to their *dealers*, not the public. They cater to what their
*dealers* want. And dealers generally do not like or want EVs.

> (4) Some countries such as China and India, who have a lot of people,
> have low oil reserves.  They will continue to develop EVs and
> alternative energy.

Yes, they will. And none of them can be imported to the USA without
expensive custom re-design and testing.

> (5) There is a segment of the population that has always liked EVs
> and alternative energy and they have money to buy the products.

That's Tesla's market. They can continue to hold that market; but it
won't affect the automotive market in general.

I like EVs! But I'm no 1%er, and will never be able to afford a Tesla.
But I did get a Nissan Leaf, thanks to the deep discounts, rebates, and
tax credits that were available.

> I would say the genie is out of its bottle and it is not going back
> into the bottle.  They were able to kill the EV1 because it was only
> a single genie based on a single state requirement.

Actually, all the automakers had EVs out then, and other states had them
as well (Massachusetts, Georgia, Arizona, etc.) But you will notice that
the winners have essentially re-written history -- the average person's
view is that it never happened.

> a change in the administration in DC may slow down the
> electrification of transportation but it cannot stop it.
>
> Therefore, lets move on to what needs to be done to move forward.

I believe they *can* stop it. That is why it's important for EVers to
get organized, before we get trampled to death again!

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com<http://www.sunrise-ev.com>
The Sunrise EV2 Project<http://www.sunrise-ev.com/>
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric 
vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance 
electric ...


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