--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Or maybe, just maybe, THEIR EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT.
Maybe, but which one: the THC experience, the LSD
experience, the amrit, ras, betel, wine, or the hopping
experience?
Going back, how about a
Jim Flanegin writes snipped from longer piece:
Right. The experience of Realization can be had by anyone,
any time. But in order to sustain Realization, purification
must occur. I think it was Muktananda who said instant
enlightenment is just that; it lasts for an instant.
TomT;
Jean
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@
wrote:
snip
Perhaps it is the self-sufficiency of TM that bothers you- no
complex intellectual traditions, or direct transmissions from the
Master
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:23 AM, cardemaister wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Dec 9, 2006, at 4:25 AM, cardemaister wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@
wrote:
snip
Perhaps it is the self-sufficiency of TM that bothers you- no
--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
TomT;
It is not exactly that simple and needs to be looked
at in the larger
context. As Suzanne Segal said hundreds of time in
her book Collision
with the Infinite. We do the next obvious thing. How
do we know it is
the next obvious thing? Because it
--- Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
llundrub wrote:
TM is not different from Dzogchen.
So, you're saying that Dzogchen is non-different
from TM.
When one past thought has ceased and a future
thought
has not yet arisen, in that gap, in between,
there's
a conciousness
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
However for many simply the cessation of thoughts does
not give rise to pure consciousness because of the
foundational projection/identification of
consciousness with chitta. Cessation of
thought/vrittis in chitta while
Peter, thanks for this (below). Really explains a lot of my own
meditation experience for many years.
However, I found that my experience changed after I read Nisargadatta.
The clarity that is characteristic of meditation (and life) now is
wholly in line with what I have learned from
Barry, also well said, though I don't think disastrous results is
necessarily correct. I understand that from your perspective in the
Buddhist tradition you acknowledge that there are causes and
consequences, valued as both good and bad, and there's no argument
about that in my mind exactly, but
On Dec 9, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Peter wrote:
--- Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
llundrub wrote:
TM is not different from Dzogchen.
So, you're saying that Dzogchen is non-different
from TM.
When one past thought has ceased and a future
thought
has not yet arisen, in that gap,
As mentioned before; as the success of the Invincible America grows
stronger, Vaj is getting more desperate and his language more foul.
---What kind of ludicrous statement is this?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote:
However for many simply the cessation of thoughts does
not give rise to pure consciousness because of the
foundational projection/identification of
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
drpetersutphen@ wrote:
However for many simply the cessation of
thoughts does
not give rise to pure consciousness because
--- llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As mentioned before; as the success of the
Invincible America grows
stronger, Vaj is getting more desperate and his
language more foul.
---What kind of ludicrous statement is this?
Perhaps Maitraya got up on the wrong side of the bed
or
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
drpetersutphen@ wrote:
However for many simply the
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@
wrote:
However for many simply the cessation of thoughts does
not give rise to pure consciousness because of the
foundational projection/identification
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As mentioned before; as the success of the Invincible America grows
stronger, Vaj is getting more desperate and his language more foul.
---What kind of ludicrous statement is this?
One based on observation?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 9, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Peter wrote:
--- Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
llundrub wrote:
TM is not different from Dzogchen.
So, you're saying that Dzogchen is non-different
from TM.
When
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
drpetersutphen@ wrote:
However for many simply the
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote:
Turq's description seems closer to an intellectual argument
presented to those practicing more of a mindfulness technique while
remaining in the
TorquiseB writes snipped:
Well said. That's *exactly* why I suggested that
having been given a strong intellectual framework
that appeals to the normal (that is, unenlightened)
waking state can actually be an *obstacle* to the
appreciation of enlightenment when it dawns.
Tom T:
Heard
People make a mistake when they view advaitin
teachings as presenting conceptual models of
Realization for a waking state intellect. For the
waking state intellect they are obviously lacking as
you and others have pointed out. It doesn't mean what
they say is false or wrong, its just that they are
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
People make a mistake when they view advaitin
teachings as presenting conceptual models of
Realization for a waking state intellect. For the
waking state intellect they are obviously lacking as
you and others have pointed
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
People make a mistake when they view advaitin
teachings as presenting conceptual models of
Realization for a waking state intellect. For the
waking state intellect they are obviously lacking as
you and others have pointed
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote:
People make a mistake when they view advaitin
teachings as presenting conceptual models of
Realization for a waking state intellect. For the
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@
wrote:
People make a mistake when they view advaitin
teachings as presenting
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@
wrote:
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend
jstein@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
no_reply@
wrote:
--- In
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Turq's description seems closer to an intellectual argument
presented to those practicing more of a mindfulness technique while
remaining in the waking state, so the challenge is constantly to the
waking state
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote:
People make a mistake when they view advaitin
teachings as presenting conceptual models of
Realization for a waking state intellect. For the
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote:
Turq's description seems closer to an intellectual argument
presented to those practicing more of a mindfulness technique while
remaining in
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
In general, those who don't get the advaita
approach have not had the direct experience of
realization. For those who have, they make sense.
You're
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@
wrote:
Turq's description seems closer to an intellectual argument
presented to those practicing more of a mindfulness technique
while
remaining in
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@
wrote:
Turq's description seems closer to an intellectual argument
presented to
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@
wrote:
snip
No purification is required to experience realization.
Realization is present
On Dec 8, 2006, at 4:54 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
Yup. And that of dozens of my friends and hundreds
of people within the traditions I have studied.
They have actually *had* the experience of realization,
unlike some traditions that can only talk about it in
theory and come up with excuses for why
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@
wrote:
snip
No
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
No purification is required to experience realization.
Realization is present at every moment and has always
been present at every moment of one's life. There was
no moment in which one was ever *not* realized.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@
wrote:
---
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization
requires at least, time and abundant practice. Perhaps Norbu is
missing an important point regarding bodily purification; and...I
contend, MMY's fund of knowledge
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization
requires at least, time and abundant practice. Perhaps Norbu is
missing an important point regarding bodily
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of
your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization
requires at least, time and abundant
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
drpetersutphen@ wrote:
People make a mistake when they view advaitin
teachings as presenting conceptual models of
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV
of
your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu,
Torquise B srites snipped:
No purification is required to experience realization.
Jim Flanegin writes snipped from longer piece:
Right. The experience of Realization can be had by anyone, any time.
But in order to sustain Realization, purification must occur. I
think it was Muktananda who said
Comment below:
**
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
**Snip**
Still another way of looking at it is that it is
a choice *only in retrospect*, i.e., from the
perspective of realization, but not from the
waking-state perspective (Knowledge is
---You mean the question of free will. The jury's out on this
question, which we (and philosophers going back thousands of years),
have gone over before. Choice may or may not really exist; but in
any event, our lack of knowledge concerning the future, and karmic
interactions in general,
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Comment below:
**
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
**Snip**
Still another way of looking at it is that it is
a choice *only in retrospect*, i.e., from the
perspective
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mathatbrahman
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
---You mean the question of free will. The jury's out on this
question, which we (and philosophers going back thousands of
years), have gone over before.
If there's a jury involved, the wrong question is
being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of
your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization
requires at least, time and abundant
Yes. I totally agree.
And just as an aside, I like your moniker. I don't use one now, but
when I first posted here I used 'nothoughtdas'. Kind of fun to get to
play with the name/form thing on a forum like this. The moniker-thing
is an interesting part of it.
Nisargadatta never fails to
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mathatbrahman
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
---You mean the question of free will. The jury's out on this
question, which we (and philosophers going back thousands of years),
have gone over before. Choice may or may not really exist; but in
any event,
---Thanks, I believe I read those 3 books, while standing in the
local New Age bookstore for 20 min. I've seen books that taut
certain Gurus with having supernatural knowledge of past, present,
and future. Sai Baba claims to be one of these Omniscient Gurus; but
invariably, (to dream up a
On Dec 8, 2006, at 9:27 PM, nablusos108 wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of
your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization
requires at least, time and abundant
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, kaladevi93 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV
of your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu,
--- Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes. I totally agree.
And just as an aside, I like your moniker. I don't
use one now, but
when I first posted here I used 'nothoughtdas'.
Kind of fun to get to
play with the name/form thing on a forum like this.
The moniker-thing
is an
---On a conceptual basis, yes...Dzogchen takes place somehow beyond
all progressions, and (as Vaj so astutely pointed out); doesn't
involve the transmission of Shakti (unlike Muktananda's Shaktipat).
But on a practical basis, (as Vaj so unastutely failed to mention);
one (the aspirant) is
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, kaladevi93 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV
of your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu,
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 4:54 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
Yup. And that of dozens of my friends and hundreds
of people within the traditions I have studied.
They have actually *had* the experience of realization,
unlike some
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of your
Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization
requires at least, time and abundant
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
drpetersutphen@ wrote:
People make a mistake when they
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Comment below:
**
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
**Snip**
Still another way of looking at it is that it is
a choice *only in retrospect*, i.e., from the
perspective of
On Dec 8, 2006, at 10:22 PM, kaladevi93 wrote:
You mean like one of Mahesh's beautiful and primary students recently
going insane?
Thanks for reminding me.
I'm sure Vaj might agree, he's mentioned it before here: Dzogchen
begins where Unity
ends. At least that's the gist of Shearer's
On Dec 8, 2006, at 10:49 PM, matrixmonitor wrote:
---On a conceptual basis, yes...Dzogchen takes place somehow beyond
all progressions, and (as Vaj so astutely pointed out); doesn't
involve the transmission of Shakti (unlike Muktananda's Shaktipat).
But on a practical basis, (as Vaj so
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote:
---Vaj, but this is the
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 10:22 PM, kaladevi93 wrote:
You mean like one of Mahesh's beautiful and primary students
recently
going insane?
Thanks for reminding me.
I'm sure Vaj might agree, he's mentioned it before
---Thanks, you're definitely right about the Rainbow Light Body, but
it remains to be seen if anybody outside of secluded parts of Tibet
will be able to acquire this type of body. This is a hope-for goal in
the category of progressive evolution. Evidence suggests that it's at
the end of a
But you are in direct contradiction to his teaching. You are
presenting both a false Path and a false View. One is tempted to
assume therfore that your View is false Gary.
As mentioned before; as the success of the Invincible America grows
stronger, Vaj is getting more desperate and his
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 8, 2006, at 10:22 PM, kaladevi93 wrote:
You mean like one of Mahesh's beautiful and primary students
recently
going insane?
Thanks for reminding me.
I'm sure Vaj might agree, he's mentioned it before
---Thanks, to back track a few months to Vaj's erronous and distorted
notion that TM is dualist, to repeat another contributor's reply:
that what's dualist or otherwise depends on the Consciousness of the
aspirant, rather than the technique.
But let's take Vaj's Guru: Norbu Rinpoche. He conducts
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
snip
Perhaps it is the self-sufficiency of TM that bothers you- no
complex intellectual traditions, or direct transmissions from the
Master needed. Just plain old TM leading to plain old Realization.
Complete,
-- Nisargadata Maharaj is one of those Neo-Advaitin Nihilists who
states that he's Pure Consciousness, but refuses to acknowledge his
existence in the relative world. (these teachings are inconsistent
with what MMY says...since Brahman has two aspects in One, not one
aspect in One.). Thanks
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