RE: [Vo]:something to consider
do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult 1 Pet. 3:9 NIV From: leaking pen [mailto:itsat...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 4:08 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:something to consider I'm pointing out an inconsistency in a particular simile you made. Please, tell me if I have misrepresented your views Alex Hollins On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.commailto:jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Because you have shown your disdain for me and my views, I will now treat your views with equal disdain. Insults to my faith started from multiple members of this group long long long before I started insulting Lomax by telling the truth about his religion. You might say there is nothing that leaking pen has posted in this post that would constitute an insult but you need to take his whole post history to properly evaluate his intent with this post. Based on his hostile history to me, I have perceived this post to be an insult. In fact, this is the 4th insult he has directed to me and this is the first time I am responding to him with an insult. Jojo PS, I have agreed to Mark's and David's reasonable proposal to stop the cycle of insults, and I have not insulted anyone, in fact, I have not posted for over 12 hours now, and yet fresh insults continue to head my way. My friends, I am not the problem here. - Original Message - From: leaking penmailto:itsat...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:something to consider there's a big difference between disdain for having a view, and suggesting that because you belong to a group, you must be a murdering pedophile bent on the destruction of other groups. On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.commailto:jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Eric, I forgot to mention. What would you do if you are the subject of constant insults and ridicule for your views? Would you not lash out in retaliation? Your bias is why I grow more instransigent each day. You express grave concern that islam may be assaulted but express no equal concern that I have been insulted time and time again here for my beliefs in the Bible. Well you ask what you would do if you were in Abd's situation. Why don't you ask another equally valid question. What would you do if you were in Jojo's position. This problem has a very very very simple solution you know. Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walkermailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 2:02 PM Subject: [Vo]:something to consider I am starting this as a new thread because many people are starting to skip entire threads. See my questions below. I wrote If that's the best we can do for now, how to address Abd's pressing concern about having his background and religion subject to constant assault on this list? But really this is a concern that pertains to all of us. We need a list that is hospitable to all people who can make a competent contribution. (I do not mean *everybody*. I do not mind in the slightest if list mods take action to make the list quite inhospitable to those who for whatever reason are too immature to contribute much of value.) Think about what you would do if you were in Abd's situation. Perhaps you would just abide the assault quietly. Perhaps you would leave the list. But that would not make the environment any more hospitable for others in shoes similar to yours. You may not respond in the way that Abd has. But we should appreciate that he's being put in a very awkward position and that he has broader interests in mind. Eric On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.commailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.commailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Oh, I'm quivering, shaking with the possibility that *Jed Rothwell* might filter me out. I am not going to subscribe to VortexB-l. This is supposedy a moderated list. If it stays unmoderated, I won't be here long. Hate to say it, but the troll is starting to win. People are starting to lose patience with one another. I think Steve Johnson has been on this list since early days. Any word on Bill? Is he ok? How long do we suffer the present situation until we reconstitute under something like Google Groups, with Terry or another longtimer as mod? Or should everyone who can't stand the situation add he who shall not be named to a killfile? If that's the best we can do for now, how to address Abd's pressing concern about having his background and religion subject to constant assault on this list? Eric
RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water
Exactly! This effect has been discovered and forgotten and discovered again. From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 10:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water I looked at the Papp cannon video again. At 3:00 in, Papp is filling the cannon from one of the flasks. It has a sizable amount of clear liquid at the bottom of that flask. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded Is that liquid clorinated water is see? Happy New Year: Axil On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: Hasn't Prof. Graneau identified arc explosions in water as overunity? That a turbine should be engineered to take advantage of the effect as free energy? Papp did mention water vapor in his engine patent, if I recall correctly. The Russians did a lot of work on the Electrohydraulic effect back in the '70's that was utterly ignored, as well.
RE: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers
Just exploring? Would you like more of these sort of comments from Hansen, perhaps? Or maybe people with some authority trying to compare climate deniers to pedophiles, as recently reported on Drudge?
RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water
http://www.oocities.org/waterfuel111/water_explosion_menu.html The above isn't exactly Acta Physica but it has some interesting links and claims From: ChemE Stewart [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:02 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water Axil, I agree with your thinking, I will also mention that I believe these plasmoids or energetic particles love mass-energy dense matter like WATER. It gives them something to shred at their surface and spit out their tail, leaving ionized, charged particles. As I have been modelling what I believe are more massive energetic particle tracks in our atmosphere they appear to be FOLLOWING CONDENSED WATER VAPOR trails in the atmosphere. Water may have been Papps Nuclear Fuel. This was also probably the fuel for Nanospire's energetic particles. Once the particles/plasmoids are created, the more mass-energy dense material(water) at their surface makes them more energetic. Just the way I see it. Stewart darkmattersalot.comhttp://darkmattersalot.com
RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water
http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/waterarc/waterarcexplosion.html Try the above as to success. _ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 11:04 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject:RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water Caveat- please be aware that two of the four original authors of the 1998 water arc paper have later distanced themselves from the conclusions of a bona fide energy anomaly. George Hathaway, who had the best scientific credentials and reputation of the four, was vocal for several years in being not in agreement that there was proved gain in the water arc. He published a rebuttal in Infinite Energy in 2007. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg26685.html George used to post here before the list became corrupted with religion and politics debates before the 2008 election. We need some kind of moderation on this list. Who needs this kind of inane diversion? Too bad, it used to be a thoughtful group. BTW - there have been many replication attempts of Graneau's water arc - and none that I recall was positive. Jones From: Zell, Chris http://www.oocities.org/waterfuel111/water_explosion_menu.html The above isn't exactly Acta Physica but it has some interesting links and claims inline: Picture (Metafile) 1.jpg
RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water
I am confused as to what they are claiming. They seem to be saying that they reproduced 'Graneau's efficiency', as reported. Perhaps this involves the transmission of thrust to lifting objects rather than the full amount of energy within the explosion. Graneau said this was a problem. He suggested a turbine. _ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 3:28 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject:RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water Quote from test results: The average kinetic energy of the water projectile, based on its ability to lift objects, was around 0.1% to 0.3% of the input energy. ... extraordinarily poor results ... Now you understand why Hathaway backed away from Graneau. Unfortunately, this will not help Papp proponents. It is clear to me that if the Papp engine every worked for gain - the gain was a function of its radium content - pretty much as the patent states, and pretty much as was demonstrated in the Hubbard coil 90 years ago. There is no independent evidence that any engine without radium ever worked. There is plenty of evidence that many devices with radium worked much better than expected. Consequently, the decay energy is somehow magnified and usually this involves a high turn coil. Recently a new theory and patent has emerged to explain why the gain in some isotope decays can be vastly greater than expected. http://levitronicsenergy.com/index.htm http://www.rexresearch.com/barbat/barbat.htm ... the light (or low mass) electron LME sounds a bit like Ken Shoulders EVO ideas From: Zell, Chris http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/waterarc/waterarcexplosion.html Try the above as to success. _ From: , 2013 Subject:RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water Caveat- please be aware that two of the four original authors of the 1998 water arc paper have later distanced themselves from the conclusions of a bona fide energy anomaly. George Hathaway, who had the best scientific credentials and reputation of the four, was vocal for several years in being not in agreement that there was proved gain in the water arc. He published a rebuttal in Infinite Energy in 2007. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg26685.html George used to post here before the list became corrupted with religion and politics debates before the 2008 election. We need some kind of moderation on this list. Who needs this kind of inane diversion? Too bad, it used to be a thoughtful group. BTW - there have been many replication attempts of Graneau's water arc - and none that I recall was positive. Jones From: Zell, Chris http://www.oocities.org/waterfuel111/water_explosion_menu.html The above isn't exactly Acta Physica but it has some interesting links and claims OLE Object: Picture (Device Independent Bitmap)
RE: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
The fact that many or most Americans do not fear the government is not something to celebrate. The erosion of rights under the Constitution is shocking - if most people understood or cared - and Obama has become worse than Bush. While Congress hotly debates budgets, just hours away from a fiscal cliff, they have no trouble at all passing a bill (twice) that allows for indefinite imprisonment without trial by a bipartisan majority (NDAA). Don't waste your time protesting to your elected representative, they won't bother answering ( my experience). And they easily pass a bill to search your email without a warrant - take note of the fact that no one even bats an eye that the FBI went thru tens of thousands of emails from the most prominent military leaders in the country recently. Not even their position saves them.. And most astounding of all? Take a good look at the track record of people crying for gun confiscation and note how disgusted and aggrieved they normally are in preaching that the government is corrupt and unresponsive. Like Michael Moore and his 9/11 work. The government is evil but let's give up our guns? Really? Oh, and the US now puts a higher % of its people in prison than Russia does.
RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water
Hasn't Prof. Graneau identified arc explosions in water as overunity? That a turbine should be engineered to take advantage of the effect as free energy? Papp did mention water vapor in his engine patent, if I recall correctly. The Russians did a lot of work on the Electrohydraulic effect back in the '70's that was utterly ignored, as well.
RE: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
How about some Klonopin or other treatments for OCD? That's what I'm seeing here ( yes, from my own experience). I can't imagine anything more pointless than arguments about religious dogma. Time would be better spent discovering/developing free energy - by which means the entire Middle East would become gloriously irrelevant. Build a Golden Age and forget about these distractions forever.
RE: [Vo]:Kapagen
It's impressive, initially - but why not throw in a few diodes and filtering circuit and make it into DC? I never understand why these inventors keep working with AC, often both in and out, when DC would end all accusations of power factor issues? Are we seeing real overunity or just some sort of high frequency lighting effect that makes it look like overunity?
[Vo]:VSG-Overlooked Free Energy?
I'm looking for a little help here. Some years ago, J. Naudin published the Synergetics theory of a French scientist. His models of this theory appeared to offer overunity. Unfortunately, the stuff is mostly in French and Babblefish is kinda approximate. The scientist claimed that Tomakak experiments proved free energy but were never published to avoid trouble. Then, there was a guy who replicated the device, repeatedly: www.intalek.comhttp://www.intalek.com I'd like to build this device but I can't understand the triggering part of the theory. High voltage? Alpha particles? Naudin isn't very clear. Help, help..(Thanks)
[Vo]:New Anti-Stealth tech
http://www.businessinsider.com/quantum-imaging-university-of-rochester-radar-stealth-f-35-fifth-generation-2012-12 A new imaging technology has been developed that may make stealth obsolete. May put a crimp in all that bombing and strafing.
RE: [Vo]:Climate Threats
I'm sorry I don't understand your response. Would you prefer that I posted each and every threat made against global warming denial, one by one? They have been a rather consistent stream. Drudge has been regular about posting them. From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate Threats This is un-effing-believable. An anonymous post is trumped up to supposedly show this great danger. Give me a break. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 4, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: A lack of threats? That depends what side offers safety and acceptance. http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1096/Execute-Skeptics-Shock-Call-To-Action-At-what-point-do-we-jail-or-execute-global-warming-deniers--Shouldnt-we-start-punishing-them-now Should they be executed? Or just sent to jail? Is this the scientific method at work? Outside of Lysenko and the Soviet Union, I have never observed such repellant behavior in my life.
RE: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists
If this 'bribe 3000' scientists can be taken of an example of the logic that supports global warming, I am shocked. I would hope that anyone reading these posts would gather that threatening deniers would suffice - or just informing all that inquire that the science is settled' as the BBC is said to have done to scientific critics. Sometimes, I am horrified by the narrow conclusions that academics attempt to lead the public into, as if having no imagination at all. I can offer further examples of such straw men. From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 10:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists Oh no, Rothwell has uncovered our plot! I wonder how much it will take to buy his silence? Anyone have a spare million to contribute to the cause?[http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/resources/core/images/wink.png] -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:13 pm Subject: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists Some people here think there may be a conspiracy of climatologists to bamboozle the public. Alternatively, someone may have threatened these researchers, bashing in their cars. People who take these hypotheses seriously should give some thought to the practical ramifications. Such as -- How many people do you need to bribe? CNN polled 3,146 climate experts. 97% agreed that global warming is real. http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/eco.globalwarmingsurvey_1_global-warming-climate-science-human-activity?_s=PM:WORLD It would not do any good to bribe 10 of them, or 100. Scientists do not have much influence on one another. The top 100 leaders in a field could not impose fraudulent data on all of the others. Someone would spot it, and would use this information to oust a top leader and take his place. They often fight for power. So you need to bribe many. Perhaps not all. Let's say you bribe 2,000 and you hope the others will go along because they don't want to be in the minority. Scientists seldom worry about being in the minority, and they often pay no attention to what other scientists say, so this is a risky proposition. You may need to bribe 97% to pull this off, but let's say 2,000. How much do you need to pay? These are middle class people who studied until age 30 to enter the profession. They probably never did anything else, and they are not qualified to do much else. If they are caught taking a bribe, they will be fired and their lives will be ruined. They will spend the rest of their lives working in fast food restaurants and living on food stamps. I suppose they make an average middle class salary of $50,000. You can't bribe them for $5,000 each. No one would risk ruin for that. You can't give them $1 million each. Their colleagues and the IRS would notice they live in huge houses and drive Ferraris to work. Also, that would cost $2 billion. That is a heck of a lot of money to risk on scientists, who are undependable at best, and who have little or no influence on society. Even though these people have published hundreds of papers, Congress has done nothing to address the problem. So the person spending $2 billion to bribe them has so far earned nothing in return. I suppose $200,000 would be a reasonable sum, paid over 10 years. That's $400 million. I wish someone would bribe the cold fusion researchers for that amount! And me!!! So you pay them. Many problems might arise -- You have to hope their bosses, their unbribed colleagues, new reporters, bloggers and others never hear a word about this. No one notices these researchers are suddenly flush, buying new cars and sending their kids to private school. It means that every single person you approach agrees to be bribed. Not one turns you in. Not one demands $400,000 instead of $200,000. Some of these people may be independently wealthy, so this sum would not impress them. Some may have high moral standards. You take a big risk that you will get every last one of them to along. You can't say: no payoff to anyone unless you all agree. It means they all stay bought. None of them reneges, or decides to turn you in for the publicity, or to collect a huge reward from the people who think climate change is a hoax. It is said that two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. It is difficult for me to imagine 2,000 scientists, and their spouses and relatives would all keep this secret. Frankly, I think it is impossible. Someone would get drunk and start boasting. The anti-global warming people would root around and uncover the plot, offering counter-bribes, pretending to be climatologists, and so on. You can't do this once and leave well enough along. There is a steady flow of new grad students entering the field as older people retire. Every time someone is hired you would have to
RE: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists
I beseech thee in the bowels of Christ, think it possible ye may be mistaken. There is a degree of logic in what you say but... There are MANY conspiracies that involve large numbers of people that are quite successful. At least one 9/11 debunking site has protested as to why so many conspiracy theorists ignore the most obvious conspiracy at the center: there is no evidence that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 and the whole war was based on lies. Is there any real uprising to have Bush and Co. put in prison? That's just one example. The MSM has been very successful at avoiding true stories that leaders of Afghanistan are child molesters as a part of their culture ( look up 'bacha'). British soldiers were horrified when they encountered this. It didn't fit the narrative of 'freedom fighters', so. I can go on... By the way, strokes or heart attacks are easy to produce. The KGB, CIA and Mossad have been causing them for years to accomplish their ends. From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 10:28 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists I wrote: My arguments apply equally well to many other conspiracy theories, such as the claim that the moon landings were faked . . . I mean large conspiracies involving thousands of people. I think these are impossible. Small conspiracies are possible. Some have occurred in history. To take an example from this field, I think it would be impossible for large numbers of people to secretly suppress cold fusion in a coordinated fashion. However, individuals have certainly done this on an ad hoc basis. As I said, in most cases we know who they are because they call up the researcher they bashed. They gloat, and rub it in. In other cases we do not know who pulled strings and canceled funding. It does not matter who does these things. If it isn't one big-name scientist, it will be another. Anyone who manages to become the editor or a blogger at the Scientific American is bound to have it in for cold fusion. Even if we rid ourselves of Robert Park there are plenty of others who will take his place. A small conspiracy is plausible. Stanley Meyer dropped dead outside a restaurant. I assume he suffered from a stroke. I believe Gene told me that is what the doctors concluded. Many people believe Meyer was murdered, perhaps by a conspiracy. There was only one of him and it would not take many people to organize such a conspiracy, so I cannot discount that possibility. It would not be like trying to organize a conspiracy of with 2,000 climatologists in cahoots. Frankly, I doubt you could organize 20 climatologists to show up at lunch during a conference. Generally speaking, getting scientists to do anything is like herding cats. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conspiracy The above is the definition of conspiracy. Apparently, you may find it helpful. This deception was practiced openly(???). I can also offer definitions of 'oxymoron or 'contradiction in terms', if that would help. From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:01 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: There are MANY conspiracies that involve large numbers of people that are quite successful. I don't think so. At least one 9/11 debunking site has protested as to why so many conspiracy theorists ignore the most obvious conspiracy at the center: there is no evidence that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 and the whole war was based on lies. That was not a conspiracy, which is defined as a surreptitious organized movement. That was a political lie. Many people, including me, knew perfectly well during the run-up to the war that Iraq had nothing to do with it. Yes, the Bush administration did deceive the public about this. This deception was practiced openly, not in a conspiratorial manner. The actual facts of the matter were never hidden. Many major newspapers reported that Iraq was unconnected. Even administration figures, when pressed, would back off from making these allegations for a while. Then, when the coast was clear, they would go right back to making them again. Deception is not the same thing as conspiracy. There are many similar political lies. For example, politicians have sometimes claimed that crime is rising when in fact it is falling (or vice versa). - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists
You could assert the same about a magic act on stage at Vegas. I shall, however, continue to insist that, to the extent a thing depends on deception, it is not open - and to the degree it is open, it is not deception. As this discussion has now ventured into the Pythonesque, I can only add examples you might favor, such as military justice, Christian Rock, Arab Unity and honest politicians... or a certain ( living) Norwegian Blue Parrot. From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: This deception was practiced openly(???). I can also offer definitions of 'oxymoron or 'contradiction in terms', if that would help. Many deceptions are openly practiced. As I said, a politician running for office may say: crime has risen to sky high levels since my opponent took office! even though the statistics show that crime has dropped. The candidate hopes that the voters will take his word for this and not fact-check the assertion. Voters often do take a politicians at their word, especially when they say something that makes their opponent look bad. People are always ready to believe the worst about someone. The recent presidential campaign was chock full of bogus assertions boldly stated, which anyone could fact-check. I will not list any, to avoid politicizing the discussion. The point is, people often lie about things that the audience could catch if they bothered. In cold fusion, for example, opponents often say: no peer-reviewed papers have ever been published about cold fusion. That is nonsense. It is a matter of fact that many peer-reviewed papers have been published. Anyone can go to a library and find them. You might assert that all these papers are wrong, but to say they do not exist is an outrageous lie. The editors of the Scientific American get away with this because their readers are lazy and they do not bother to check. Scientific American readers are inclined to believe the worst about cold fusion researchers. A lie that fits in well with the audience's prejudices and phobias will seldom be questioned. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell
I sincerely hope that our civilization is prepared for a possible Carrington event - that could dwarf any global warming effects. Another point, not often admitted is the possible influence of the TBTJ banks - which largely control governments. They want to profit from running carbon tax/permit exchanges. JP Morgan already profits from running food stamp programs for the US government. It is reported that Lloyd Blankfein now has Secret Service protection against 'aggressive' questioners/reporters. When the Occupy movement was in the headlines, Big Banks gave spontaneous donations to NYC police causes to keep protesting riffraff away from their private mansions.
RE: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell
It is sad indeed to realize that politics and entrenched financial interests dominate science - or what passes for it- but the notion that global warming denial is just triggered by oil companies and the like is naïve. There are powerful interests on the other side - and, in addition, because of regulatory perversions, even oil companies can come to embrace global warming as a deceptive means to beat down competitors or draw benefits from the public trough. Don't laugh. Tobacco companies have done a very good job of this sort of shenanigans.
RE: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell
In regard to the power of the international banks and their scofflaw privileges, the extreme nature of the situation is kept out of the mainstream press. It would be too frightening for most people to know just how sociopathic and immune to the law they are. Take the case of Andrew McGuire - who made the mistake of trying to expose silver trading manipulation by JP Morgan. Not only was his evidence ignored, but shortly thereafter his car was violently plowed into by another vehicle. Though reportedly caught later, the authorities did nothing. (Google his name) Or the case of the father and son who ran a website that attempted to expose who owns and controls the Federal Reserve. Their bodies were found amid the ashes of their home. They both had been shot thru the head, execution-style ( reported on the Divine Cosmos site). Or the blatant scofflaw activity of major banks, who transferred countless homes in the subprime scandal, completely ignoring any and all local and state laws across the US in regard to registering and legally transmitting mortgages. If you have ever bought a home in the US, you might wonder how large banks could simply ignore a long tradition of legal precedent that You had to go thru. The mainstream media doesn't even acknowledge the issue. Is this enough? I have more. Global warming is a legitimate concern but the hype comes from powerful people with vested interests.
[Vo]:Climate Threats
A lack of threats? That depends what side offers safety and acceptance. http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1096/Execute-Skeptics-Shock-Call-To-Action-At-what-point-do-we-jail-or-execute-global-warming-deniers--Shouldnt-we-start-punishing-them-now Should they be executed? Or just sent to jail? Is this the scientific method at work? Outside of Lysenko and the Soviet Union, I have never observed such repellant behavior in my life.
RE: [Vo]:Reasons to be optimistic we will win the political battle
It may be to our advantage that Rossi and others are thought to be fools or frauds. Let the PTB find out otherwise amidst surprize and their own ruin. I have often wondered how a free energy technology could be introduced at large if an 'accident' or sudden 'heart attack' or murder by a lone gunman-unrelated-to-any-conspiracy awaits the inventor or his family - even if he gets past the other obstacles.
RE: [Vo]:Vote for Mitt Romney , Etc.
I've never liked Obama but I did have to give him credit for telling the Israeli government No to starting WW3 over Iran. His re-election is a big step for peace in that respect and I hope for more world progress if free energy emerges.
RE: [Vo]:Mitt and What To Do
I hope Obama knows what to do, I don't. Release a Presidential Pardon for anyone who exposes free energy or alien technology. If you're a skeptic, you have nothing to fear. None of that exists, right? Make peace with Iran and tell the Israelis they have 30 days to do a two state solution or face becoming South Africa, one man , one vote. Enough already. Announce Full Disclosure and END revealed religions thereby. Buddhists win by default. An improvement
[Vo]:Any Known Permanent Magnet Anomalies?
I am looking for any reported anomalies with regard to pulsing or causing a permanent magnet to oscillate. Here's one, as claimed: http://www.rexresearch.com/maccanti/maccanti.htm Someone over at Overunity.com did an excellent photo analysis of the Marks device and concluded that it involved magnets set into a ring shaped coil, I think the device was real, even if Marks wasn't ( like Papp). It still leaves me with the question of what nonlinear effect was involved with the magnet used or how they could oscillate. I realize that magnets are conservative devices so this would have to be an exception, such as was claimed with the Sweet Barium Titanate invention. I also wonder if magnetic compression weapons ( EMP) have ever been claimed as overunity. Thanks!
RE: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized
A redistributist economy is inevitable. I say this sadly because I have libertarian impulses but realize that technology is leading us into a state like StarTrek - in which no one has secure employment except for the guy who fixes the Replicator. -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:58 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized Hoorah!!! let's steal from the rich to redistribute to all the lazy bums out there. I wonder how you would feel if I confiscated your house and let homeless people live there with you. I'm pretty sure you would welcome that and enjoy it. What a moron! Jojo - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized It's possible my recent little mini-rant gave many Vorts the impression that I believe that the Rich and Powerful are evil miscreants, that I believe the majority of U.S. citizens who reside in so-called 98% under/middle class should rise up and overthrow the alleged tyranny of the greedy, the so-called Rich and Powerful - yada-yada and so forth. Personally, I suspect greed is a natural component of our psychological and physiological makeup. It's in our genes, and for good reason. Greed, specifically the action of hoarding helped our ancient ancestors survive slim-pickens, such as when hunting for game was at best a precarious job skill, and famine prevailed throughout the land. However, today the entire world is slowing transforming (granted, in fits and starts) into a technologically automated society, where most of our needs will available to us via technology, through the wonders of automation and robotics. The absolute need to follow many of our prior genetically built-in biological imperatives, particularly the greed to amass as much money as one can (and all the privileges associated with money) is becoming increasingly more counterproductive. A modern working-class society, a modern economy cannot flourish unless the middle class can secure sufficient discretionary income in which to purchase goods and services that in-turn are mostly created by the working class. If too much discretionary currency ends up in the coffers of just a few rich and powerful individuals and corporations the economy of the majority of working class citizens collapses because of working classes' inability to support it. That's were government regulation has to step in and help level the playing field. It will not be easy, nor will all adjustments be perfect. Needless to say, the Rich and Powerful will resist. The Tea Party will resist! ;-) Just keep in mind, however, that it's just our genes telling to prepare for famine. But this time... maybe this time we don't have to believe famine is just around the corner, not when technology, automation, and robotics are rapidly becoming the new underclass of our modern society. It's an underclass that will never demand expensive health insurance, or join a union and constantly go on strike for a pay raise. Unfortunately, old habits - particularly some of those faithful genes associated with greed - are going to be with us for a very long time. This will be an interesting presidential election. I hope it won't be ruled by our genes. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized
These discussions about the rich are starting to sound like generals in WW2, prepared to fight the previous war. I have not read a single commentator talk about the future problem of being rich: first, as to stocks, the markets are highly correlated - even more so than in the '08 crash. Second, cash held has to be denominated in some nation's currency - which is a big problem since few if any of them can come close to balancing their budgets. Third, gold and silver may plunge along with everything else in a deflationary crash. In summary, if you're at the top of the pyramid, it might be well to consider the many layers that support your position above it all. Instead of the Biblical, 'every man with his own vine and fig tree', I hope we end up with free energy and Santa Claus machines for all. ( a Sci Fi reference) From: Jouni Valkonen [mailto:jounivalko...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 12:27 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized hello Jojo, This Guardian article answers on behalf of me to you. You will probably just ignore this article, because it does not fit on your ideology, but still I would appreciate if you would take a look at it. Things are not always as rosy as they are meant to be. It is extremely rare that the richest are hard working entrepreneurs who are creating valuable innovations out of their irreplaceable mind. Mitt Romney and the myth of self-created millionaires The parasitical ultra-rich often deny the role of others in the acquisition of their wealth - and even seek to punish them for it http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/24/mitt-romney-self-creation-myth No, almost all the very richests are financial speculators who are utilizing loopholes in legislation often by avoiding regulations recycling dirty money through offshore islands. Therefore they are more like criminals, because their contribution does not add value to the society, but is almost always destructive. E.g. Gina gathered huge profit from Australian housing bubble and the ones who paid her profit were common hard working Australian house owners, whom you classified as gluttonous, rebellious and lazy people. I am personally huge fan on Elon Musk, who is the living proof that single person can make the difference. However Elon is extremely rare example of the classical hero of capitalism. There are just not too many of those on the Forbes billionaire list who are also the chief designers of the best rocket ever built, i.e. Falcon 9, that is to be launched for the first commercial operation at this Sunday. I apologize about the political nature of this message, but I would guess that due to elections they should be tolerated if they are not leading into flooding the mailing list. -jouni On 3 October 2012 05:42, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.commailto:jth...@hotmail.com wrote: This idea that poverty is the root cause of criminality is at best naive and at worst moronic. This can only come from the liberal minds of socialistic/communistic people who think that Income Redistribution is the panacea for all societal ills. My friend, stealing from people who work hard for their income and redistribute it to lazy bums will not cure sociatal ills. You are smarter than to believe in that solution. Let's take a real life example. The United States has more felons and criminals on a per capita basis than any other country in the world, including such 4th world countries like the Philippines who are poverty stricken to the core. The United States is flushed in food and resources and conveniences, and yet manage to produce more criminals and felons than any other country. Please, I would like to hear your explanation why the US has more criminals than the Philippines (on a per capita basis). Jojo PS. The root cause of crime is not poverty. but rather the inherent sin and rebellion in the hearts of a glutonous, rebellious and lazy society. - Original Message - From: Jouni Valkonenmailto:jounivalko...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized I would think that only way to combat this problem is to eliminate poverty from the society. About 95% of the criminality is due to unjust distribution of wealth. This is not that individual humans would resort into criminality if they fail to find job due to high unemployment rates, but because children are crown in the conditions where no children should be allowed to live. Best way to eliminate poverty is to set zero income level for each individuals into 1000-2000 dollars per month. This can be done quite easily by distributing income more justly. When there is no scarcity of the basic needs, there won't be breeding grounds for violent gangs and violent larger
RE: [Vo]:South Africa Fuel-Free Generator Report : Theory?
These battery pulsing/shuttling devices have been around since the Ed Grey motor. Whatever it is, it gets rediscovered and rediscovered. I personally think that Ed Shoulders Charge Clusters explain both LENR and these devices. If have ever read his main patents, you are witness to a huge amount of careful and extensive experimentation. -Original Message- From: Alan Fletcher [mailto:a...@well.com] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 8:31 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:South Africa Fuel-Free Generator Report : Theory? Summary : could be an LENR effect -- Lead+H or Tin+H -- Tin HAS been a component of some positive experiments. From: Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:32:32 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:South Africa Fuel-Free Generator Report What I witnessed, along with three other scientists that I brought along -- all more qualified than myself -- was a 5 kW unit powered by four batteries, running for three hours continuous, driving a load of approximately 4 KW. According to the amp-hour rating of those batteries (102 Ah each), without being recharged from an external source, they should have lasted only 35 minutes before running down completely, no longer able to power the system. The load was roughly 4 kW, comprised of: - a two-burner stove, each burner consuming 1 kW (rated power according to manufacturer) - a toaster that consumed 850 Watts (rated power) - a pancake maker that consumes 1 kW (rated power) - A 40-Watt fan (rated power) http://pesn.com/2012/02/22/9602042_South_African_Fuel-Free_Generator_P reparing_for_Market/ Except for the fan, these are all resistive loads, and hard to fool. Note in the report that for the larger units they had an industrial resistor bank at hand as a load. AND http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg63222.html … but as we have mentioned here on vortex many times, if this battery shuttling technique, using back EMF, does work – and there is no firm proof that it does but lots of positive anecdotal evidence, then the reason it works is probably related to some from of LENR in the battery itself ! IOW - the battery, which is an electrochemical cell, not unlike the ones used in PF and most of LENR, is the active source of power. Lead-acid batteries seem to be particularly adaptable to the technique. NB: the sum of the first three electrons in the valence shell of the atom of Pb, has net ionization potential of 54.4 eV, which is the prime Rydberg value for the T-effect (Thermacore effect) which is seen in experiments going back to 1990, first patented by Thermacore. Jones - - - - - - - - - - Lets presume for the moment that the output is real. The effect occurs only in lead-acid batteries, during the discharge phase, at a time when the negative plate is mostly lead. (During this phase the other battery is recharged -- their roles are switched periodically) Discharge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery#Discharge Negative plate reaction: Pb(s) + HSO− 4(aq) → PbSO4(s) + H+(aq) + 2e− Positive plate reaction: PbO2(s) + HSO− 4(aq) + 3H+(aq) + 2e− → PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l) So hydrogen is intimately involved with both plates. This may be analogous to the classical LENR loading requirement. Secondly, a high-frequency FUTZ is applied to the discharging battery. Again, note the similarity to the various triggers required for LENR -- particularly voltage pulses. So at least TWO of the required LENR conditions are satisfied. So ... what are the candidate metals? a) Lead -- but I can't find any reports of Lead in LENR (except in the solder on the terminals). But if we look at : Plates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery#Plates Practical cells are usually not made with pure lead but have small amounts of antimony, tin, calcium or selenium alloyed in the plate material to add strength and simplify manufacture. b) Tin -- NOW we start to get some hits: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MenloveHOreproducib.pdf REPRODUCIBLE NEUTRON EMISSION MEASUREMENTS FROM Ti METAL IN PRESSURIZED D2 GAS H. O. Menlove, ... Los Alamos National Laboratory, Jones Brigham Young University During the past year, we have measured neutron emission from samples of titanium (Ti) metal and sponge in pressurized D2 gas. By measuring high-mass samples (300 g Ti) over several weeks, with many liquid nitrogen temperature cycles, we have detected neutron emission above the background from most of the samples with a significance level of 3 to 9 sigma ALL of the active samples contain some Ti662 (Ti, 6% Al, 6%V, and 2% Sn) Also see Geo-fusion and Cold Nucleosynthesis www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JonesSEgeofusiona.pdf NEW PHYSICAL EFFECTS IN METAL DEUTERIDES http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinnewphysica.pdf Tin has also been mentioned as a possible surface contaminant on Pd. c) antimony calcium or selenium (I haven't searched
[Vo]:Magnets In a Conductive Circuit
I was wondering if there was a way to get electrical energy by using a permanent magnet in a conductive path with iron wire. I think the Roy Meyer device worked this way, as well as perhaps the Coler devices that were exposed by British Intelligence after the war. http://www.rexresearch.com/meyers/meyers.htm Were there similiar devices found early in the development of electrical distribution systems? I'm thinking that it might be possible to get a magnetic field to oscillate thru an iron conductor and create current. This would be different from the MEG device that probably just creates apparent power without real gain.
RE: [Vo]:South Africa Fuel-Free Generator Report : Theory?
To explain: Ed Shoulders is not some ill-educated crackpot. He discovered a 'particle' he initially called Electron Validum, later changed to charge cluster. Some Russians independently made the same claim, calling them ectons' or something. Anyhow, they are transient structures of huge numbers of electrons briefly stuck together, somehow in defiance of mutual repulsion. They can go thru refractory material like butter and their concentraion of charge means they can bust thru a Coulomb barrier and transmute atoms. Shoulders says that various government types wanted to classify his patents as secret but he published his results in such a way as to prevent that.
RE: [Vo]:ET - Call home
RV stuff is too tricky and approximate to be reliable. They made over 100K on silver futures but could never do it again. Russell Targ's daughter did predictive viewing of roulette at the top of the hour and got asked to leave casinos but could only specify red or black. The big thing to consider about aliens is how deeply different their thinking must be. We live in a world of scarcity and necessity and they (likely) don't - having access to all the raw materials and energy they could possibly want. I don't see cost of travel or whatever coming up. According to some, ETs are interested in our world because of our extreme diversity of species or because they have some interest in 'souls' and our afterlife (Linda Moulton Howe, are greys time travellers?) or because we need to be controlled as to nuclear weapons ( Roswell, Manstein Air Base, interference with antimissile tests and more)
[Vo]:StarTrek Replicator?
see: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/01/24/161240/pirate-bay-to-offer-physical-item-downloads Pirate Bay is offering downloadable files to create objects via newly available 3-D printers. Almost like transmitting a physical object over IP. Remember this it might be a moment in history when the world began to change radically.
[Vo]:How Corporations Respond To Challenge
Once upon a time, a fellow named Ralph challenged GM because of their dangerous products. How did they respond to this technological/legal issue? Simply apologize and fix the problem with the Corvair's rear axle (I owned one)? No, GM hired investigators to dig up some dirt on Ralph Nader and also tried to entrap him with prostitutes ( didn't work, he was frustratingly pure) http://www.harley.com/people/ralph-nader.html In Senate testimony, GM was forced to apologize to Nader. Ask yourself, how much of the iceberg is below water, unseen? How far would a corporation or the government go to prevent disruptive technology? Remember though, first they must perceive something as disruptive. It does no good if the technology emerges too quickly or too indistinctly for them to respond in time. Long distance carriers and other utilities companies lamented their failure to apply better (metered) charges for internet use, while it was still in its infancy. IBM curses the day they chose hardware manufacture , handing over disc operating systems to some shlub named Gates. Who knows? Entrenched, pseudo-skepticism about LENR might even save some inventor/researchers lives - allowing for it to emerge.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi comments on the It was sent back statement
Defective analogy. The cars for sale are real and functional, aren't they? Even if the business is dishonest. From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:09 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi comments on the It was sent back statement On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.commailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I cannot understand why Rossi's personality, his problems, and alleged problems are an issue here in this forum. Why do you -- Jones -- have such difficulty separating the person from the claim!?? Why do you have this weird obsession with Rossi's business deals?? It makes no sense to me. It is like being obsessed with a scientist's sex life or the kind of food he eats. So, if I understand you correctly, if a car dealership had been convicted of fraud in two major cases over the years, that would be your choice of a source for a used car?
RE: [Vo]:Rossi comments on the It was sent back statement
Even if it is assembled from stolen parts, or has excess miles or has a salvage title ( I've restored seven salvage cars to legal, functional status in NYS), or whatever, we're still dealing with a real, functional car. It exists. I think there is a remarkable real effect underlying all this Rossi stuff. From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:34 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi comments on the It was sent back statement On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: Defective analogy. The cars for sale are real and functional, aren't they? Even if the business is dishonest. Sorry, I miss your point. I was noting that Jed would likely not buy from someone convicted multiple times of fraud but he's buying the claims from Rossi who has been similarly convicted and who, by Jed's own admission, lies all the time. How is that a defective analogy exactly? The cars may be real and even functional but because there are many fraudulent ways to make a car appear newer and more functional than it is, it would be unwise to trust a used car dealer who has been previously convicted of doctoring his odometers or cars or whatever. Perhaps you haven't shopped for a used car. Not to get too far off on a tangent like Jed likes to, you should try to visit a chop shop. In one not far from where I live, you can peek into cracks in the tall fence and watch sweaty grubby people who look like they live on the street, assembling vehicles from scraps and chunks of other (wrecked) vehicles. When they're done, they just shove stray and excess parts and wiring harnesses anywhere they can. Then, the misaligned and dangerous, unreliable messes that result are given Mexican upholstery and a meticulous paint job, and sold to unwary people at discounts, usually masquerading as private sales to avoid having to provide a salvage title. I realize this may not mean much to our out of country friends-- it applies to the Southwestern US mainly but I bet the principle applies widely.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi comments on the It was sent back statement
Edison was a greedy liar and cheat who was cruel to animals. Schrodinger was a bigamist. MLK and possibly Einstein were plagiarists. Werner Von Braun was a Nazi and may have held rank in the SS. Tesla was a OCD-laden nutball. I'm not sure I'd buy a used car from any of them. OTOH, I still respect their achievements. If Rashomon Rossi gets it all together, I have my Home Depot credit card ready. Then, I can stop buying 40lb bags for my pellet stove there.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi comments on the It was sent back statement
Edison cheated Tesla on a flimsy pretext ('just joking') and 'repeatedly lied'
about DC vs AC. Tesla was vindicated, not Edison. Edison didn't even invent
the electric lightbulb ( OK, he made it last longer).
Testing without cost or risk? Not in any way that I would risk, if I was him.
What defies credibility to me are academics who believe corporations and
governments won't neutralize people who get in the way. The sign guarding Area
51 says, 'use of deadly force authorized'. President Obama orders the killing
of US citizens without trial.
As with an iceberg, if this is what you can see openly, how much is below the
surface that is hidden from your sight? Did Karen Silkwood just have an
'unfortunate accident'? Did JFK ride thru Dallas in an open vehicle after the
Secret Service knew about multiple plots on his life? How about the silver
trade whistleblower who was rammed by a car, not so long ago? How many
Americans know about a plot to overthrow FDR in the '30's and replace him with
a military junta - that Congress took seriously? Can major politicians be
bought off - to help corporations - by faking commodity transactions? (Hilliary)
Maybe Rossi goes nowhere. but don't be naive about risk
From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:24 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi comments on the It was sent back statement
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Zell, Chris
chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote:
Edison was a greedy liar and cheat who was cruel to animals. Schrodinger was a
bigamist. MLK and possibly Einstein were plagiarists. Werner Von Braun was a
Nazi and may have held rank in the SS. Tesla was a OCD-laden nutball.
I'm not sure I'd buy a used car from any of them. OTOH, I still respect their
achievements.
If Rashomon Rossi gets it all together, I have my Home Depot credit card
ready. Then, I can stop buying 40lb bags for my pellet stove there.
Misses the point. If Edison repeatedly lied about his inventions and/or was
jailed because of they didn't work as he said they did, and he described a new
invention, you wouldn't trust him. Or if you did, you'd be a fool. It doesn't
matter that he might be vindicated about the issue later.
You'd get proper independent testing and replication which is exactly what has
been asked again and again for more than a year of Rossi and Defkalion. There
is no cost or risk involved any more and neither will do it. Their pretexts
are flimsy and defy credibility. That's the problem.
RE: [Vo]:Kiplinger Letter, Jan 6 2012, Topic: ENERGY
Yes, the bankruptcies will be massive. However, some entities will survive based on oil/gas used as a petrochemical feedstock. For them, it ain't gonna be pretty. From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 12:04 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Kiplinger Letter, Jan 6 2012, Topic: ENERGY OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.netmailto:orionwo...@charter.net wrote: [Personal comment: Obviously, if Rossi related competition claims pan out in the near future, that would initiate a sustained and permanent drop in global oil prices, despite rising world demand. Granted, It may not happen immediately, but perhaps within 5 - 10 years . . . I have discussed this with some economists, including an old friend who is a professor. They say that the cost of a commodity such as oil is mainly a reflection of future expected supply and demand. They say that if it becomes generally known that cold fusion is real, and everyone agrees it is real and likely to become a practical source of energy, this will trigger an immediate and very large decline in the cost of oil and other fossil fuels. Assuming cold fusion is successfully commercialized, this decline will be permanent. The price will not recover, even if it takes 10 or 20 years for cold fusion to replace most fossil fuel consumption. The time it takes cold fusion to replace the fuel does not affect the price decline much because there is plenty of oil presently accounted for and ready to be extracted. If an oil producer knows that in 20 years there will be no market for oil, it will sell its present supply of oil as soon as possible, even at a drastically lower price. Getting some money for your inventory now is better than getting no money in the future. It is like having a warehouse full of obsolete laptop computers. They lose a few percent in value every week. You sell them now, or never. When everyone accepts cold fusion is real this will also immediately bankrupt wind turbine manufacturers, the solar cell industry, and all other alternative sources of energy that are not yet economically competitive with coal and oil. It may not kill off ethanol immediately because that is not a source of energy. It is an energy sink. It is a political plum. It is a method of ripping off consumers and wasting millions of barrels of fossil fuel to enrich big agriculture and OPEC. Because the Fukushima disaster, cold fusion cause the quick demise of conventional nuclear power, and ITER, obviously. Conventional nuclear power is a dead duck in Japan no matter what happens. I do not think they will ever build another reactor there. With one major accident, it went from being the cheapest source of energy to the most expensive. It may bankrupt TEPCO which is one of the largest power companies on earth. - Jed
[Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
If I had a complete, working, practical free energy device - and wisely feared for my life - I would consider finding someone who is a staunch Zionist/Israeli patriot, with a scientific background and donating it to him. Political jiu-jitsu, I say. At this point, I think many of us are so angry and disgusted by the greed and legal invunerability of the ruling class, that I would give it away, just to end their misrule.
RE: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
At this point, I am nearly equating their rule with misrule. The possibility that the Bill of Rights has now been repealed (the NDAA, no longer a 'tin hat' conspiracy idea) is shocking. Free energy is a bit broader topic than Cold Fusion but the main point is a huge disruptive force that tends to trigger decentralization. Iran and Arab states collapse into civil war and poverty. Some will actually turn anti-clerical. The Islamic terrorist threat will recede, unfunded. The financial system will endure more shocks based on the decline in oil/gas assets. Utilities will downsize. Governments will have yet more revenue problems from the loss of oil related revenues and more layoffs. Covering up the crimes of BP will end ( who needs 'em?). There will be articles published lamenting the loss of younger consumers, who having the internet, Facebook, free porn and now, free energy - mostly slack off from the mass economy, reducing demand. Good luck with any VAT tax ideas in such an environment. Do you know what the Too Big To Jail Banks are doing? Straight from the Wall Street Jourrnal - Capital One is blatantly violating the law in 15,000 cases in which they simply ignore bankruptcy judgements and attack debtors. The rest are attacking relatives of DEAD PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO PAY, by harassing them on the phone and trying to guilt them into paying off credit card debt from the dead. I'm not making this up. The above tells me that the Banksters are desperate, as the mass/demand economy dries up. Hit them with free energy and watch the fun really start. The idea that free energy might wreck strong governance is an old sci-fi theme. Godspeed to that. Zell, Chris wrote: At this point, I think many of us are so angry and disgusted by the greed and legal invunerability of the ruling class, that I would give it away, just to end their misrule. I do not see how this would end the misrule of the ruling class. Cold fusion has many potential benefits, but this does not seem to be among them.
RE: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
Recent years showed that oil prices can't get much above $150 a barrel or it creates a downturn that drops the price, amidst layoffs and crashes. What wasn't realized by experts, a few years back, is the degree of correlation that exists between markets today, The calls to invest in emerging markets to avoid the downturn in the developed nations turned out as a disaster. We're all stuck in this global economy together whether we like it or not. I found this out the hard way ($$). From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Alain Sepeda Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 12:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics The oil producers won't be the first victims of LENR (assuming it works as said). Liquids fuel are very efficient per mass, easy to refill, and quite cheap (europe can affort it at 5x the price tax included, so the price limit is about 300$/barel) the first victim will be the inefficient, unpractical, unstorable energy like solar and wind. the second will be biofuel and alike, who are dangerous for ecosystem and humanity (starvation fuel) those energy will be killed instantly, because no investment will be made also the future nuclear energy will be killed, like French 3rd generation EPR, downsized nuclear reactors, 4th generation reactors for production. nuclear reactor will be kept alive for the transition, with existing reactor, then retrofitted when it is cost efficient... research will be made for incinerating reactors, if LENR reactors cannot do it (some pretend LENR can incinerate, with the produced neutrons), and also for cleaning and recycling plants... but basically nuclear industry will move to cleaning mode for 40-60 years. oil can stay long, but the price will be capped, because if too expensive, the research will be affordable to replace oil by LENR in cars and transportation... also many of it's use will be forgotten, like in fixed installation (power plant, UPS, home heating) , big vehicle (cargo, trains... trucks and bus maybe)... sure it will kill the easy money to governments and 7 sisters, and the price will be the cost of extraction. if oil start to get expensive to produce, LENR will replace it quickly... this mean that non-conventional oil and gas will die slowly. reserve will quicky be reduced, without pain, and we will see the peak oil, like we have seen the peak horse in the 20th century, and the peak hunt at neolithic. nickel will never be a limiting factor. only safety delirium can (and probably will temporarily) limit it's spread to an elite of big business. all big business leaders will fight to forbide home usage, and will probably, like with fluocompact lamps, use the greens to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt like they did on GMO, antennasalike. about the impact on work, it will kill few business, start fewer new, make most better. the limiting factor will be work (not resources, unlike oil. like nuclear), but LENR seems to be an easy technology, unlike nuclear energy. IMHO the FUD will only work on rich societies, but will there be any rich society anymore... Europe ? US? maybe we won't be able to afford FUD. at least countries in south and asia will ignore occidental FUD and develop easy small-scale clone version. globally LENR will be good for workers, good for businesses (except the few losers, but there will be many winners). unlike green jobs, the LENR jobs will be cost efficient, and less numerous than today's energy (because less expensive) but it will increase the efficiency of all business and workers... so the question will be if the benefit will be spread to the mass (like in the glorious 30s), or (like today with globalization) concentrated to a small elite. I believe that the big business elite will try to capture the benefit, but it will leak to the workers and small businesses... for me it will behave like the big productivity gains of the 50s-60s... be good for the weak too... unlike today. 2011/12/27 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.commailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com Zell, Chris wrote: At this point, I think many of us are so angry and disgusted by the greed and legal invulnerability of the ruling class, that I would give it away, just to end their misrule. I do not see how this would end the misrule of the ruling class. Cold fusion has many potential benefits, but this does not seem to be among them. It would put an end to OPEC and the political power of some countries in the Middle East, and Venezuela, but I do not see how we can predict the affect on the ruling class elsewhere. It might strengthen them, since it might concentrate power in the hands of technically well-educated people. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
I have to feel stunned by the naivete of some of you. Major corporations are entirely capable of murder or theft. I suggest you read up on John Perkins and his book Confessions of an Economic Hitman in which he cites various coincidences of third world leaders who met with an accident after refusing usurious loans for their countries. Or how about long documented manipulation of silver markets? One whistleblower found out the next day when someone attempted to kill him with a car. ( see Andrew Maguire). Or perhaps you could speak with minor officials in Florida who were documenting fraud by Too Big To Fail banks - until their superior told them that their services were no longer required... and afterward have NO ONE got to jail for what could be the greatest document fraud in US history in regard to 'robo-signing' mortgages. Maybe you could bravely advocate cold fusion and then end up as a murder victim in a cold case that goes on, year after year. Perhaps you get a law passed with almost no public input, by large majorities, that nearly repeals the Bill of Rights - even after protest by US generals and the ACLU. (the NDDA just handed to Obama) - mostly kept out of the press. Wake up and get real.
RE: [Vo]:Celani claims to have replicated Rossi
I've been watching this soap opera for months now and wonder greatly how persons of such education are blind to the pathological nature of this Rossi discussion. This endless debate isn't about honest concern for science or anything else. This is pure OCD and having been afflicted with that illness, I can recognize it in others - especially as they jump from one blog site to another, spending hours and hours in ceaseless contention, that can't be solved as yet. The solution is not more tests by Rossi here- it's Cognitive Therapy and maybe some Clonipin for some people. The best I can say otherwise is that I hope the obsessive nature of the pro-LENR folks overcomes the obsessive Anti-LENR knee-jerk skeptics - and , if I was Rossi, I would seek verification VERY CAREFULLY , just in case somebody decides I need to be the victim in a Cold Case homicide. If you think the elite are incapable of such extremes of behavior, I've got news for you !
[Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
I absolutely hate to admit it but these disruptive technologies will force income redistribution on the world to a degree never seen before. Indeed, I think that's already starting to happen. While mobs in NYC protest the evil 1%, wiser heads understand that this 1% now pays 43% of NYC tax revenue. Driving them out of town would be financial suicide. Skewing any tax base in the name of being fair creates a potential disaster in an economic downturn as revenue vanishes from big payers while the populace applies for food stamps .. but as Futurama reminds us, you gotta do, what you gotta do. One of the reasons for deflationary forces is job loss and that's going to happen to banks, utilities, oil companies, and state governments that can't find enough revenue, even after they triple car registration$ and huge increases in property taxes (they will be forced to go after things that are most fixed and simple to account for). VAT tax revenues will plunge as more people 'do for themselves' with free energy and cut out the tax paying middleman. It will, however, be an absolute delight to watch greedy, sociopathic corporate executives turn on each other, fighting to steal what the deflated masses can no longer provide. - like MF Global stealing speculators money. The poor wolves can find no sheep and are starving, alas. We'll see more of this. If stem cells and regenerative medicine explodes, you'll see nurses giving more curative injections while surgeons look for work. If 'Watson' creates an AI that can dependably hand out burgers and fries, God Help Us All. A small rural house with some farm land would be a good idea... All of the above relates to the question, what would actually happen if we did have 'Star Trek' technology? While the series was inspiring, they never really answered the question of how an economy with unlimited energy and Replicators is supposed to work. (Sigh! - probably a kind of socialism and they didn't want to say that) My long term investment advice: invest in dividend paying stocks in tobacco, alcohol and Australian bonds (tourism and commodities and they have a near monopoly on weird-ass animals). Ask yourself, 'if almost everything changes, what probably won't?.
RE: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. You have to allow for some discretion, for God's sake! They invest in Congress (lobbyists, re-election cash and outright bribes) and get - not outright cash in return but rather legislation that inhibits competition, or tax cuts, or regulations that protect their profits. Only rarely does cash go directly to the rich, as with agricultural subsidies. Michael Moore finally got a few brain cells working and realized (gasp!) that President Obama was elected with huge does of cash from Too Big To Fail Banks. (well, duh) By the way, bribery can be very easy and almost impossible to trace. In the old days, they fixed a horse race and told a select few what race 'looked good'. Today, they do it with stocks or commodity bets (ask Hillary C. about this one). As 60 minutes pointed out this past month, insider trading is legal for Congressmen.
RE: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
Yup, just like the movie, Chain Reaction with Morgan Freeman. The beauty is Cold Fusion=decentralized society, Hot Fusion = centralized society. Go, Cold Fusion! Didn't Heinlein once write a story about some soldiers who discovered free energy and went AWOL, in consequence? From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Alain Sepeda Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:12 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy my estimate is the the 1% will try to privatize LENR, like they privatize globalization those 30 last years (since reagan/thatcher)... that is the danger but lenr hace bad caracteristic for that unlike green helps 2011/12/14 Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. You have to allow for some discretion, for God's sake! They invest in Congress (lobbyists, re-election cash and outright bribes) and get - not outright cash in return but rather legislation that inhibits competition, or tax cuts, or regulations that protect their profits. Only rarely does cash go directly to the rich, as with agricultural subsidies. Michael Moore finally got a few brain cells working and realized (gasp!) that President Obama was elected with huge does of cash from Too Big To Fail Banks. (well, duh) By the way, bribery can be very easy and almost impossible to trace. In the old days, they fixed a horse race and told a select few what race 'looked good'. Today, they do it with stocks or commodity bets (ask Hillary C. about this one). As 60 minutes pointed out this past month, insider trading is legal for Congressmen.
[Vo]:Cold Fusion Economic Effects
If Cold Fusion or other forms of nearly free energy emerge, obviously there will be radical change in the world. 'Free' energy will have a profoundly deflationary effect on the world economy. Oil will move towards a price consistent with being a chemical feedstock, eventually, as automobiles are converted. 'Free' energy will stimulate economies temporarily as new products are eagerly bought - however, in the longer term, it will deflate general economic demand in a manner similar to what the internet did for recorded music, movies and pornography (!). Governments will be voted out or overthrown in violence especially in the Middle East (and Iran, which will become anti-clerical). Islamic terrorism will decline. Decentralized goverance will advance and tax revenue will be ever more difficult to collect. It's even possible that separatist movements could emerge, even in the US, as insular groups find practical independence. If you're a member of the Aryan Nation, things might look pretty good in rural Idaho. Once the emergence is established, there will be evidence of public grief by various enviromentalists and climate change activists. Only a few will observe what this teaches about their real motives were. All in all, warts and all, if there is a trigger to be pulled on 'free' energy, Godspeed to those that give it to the human race. It may be the world's best hope to escape the tyranny of a corrupt and sociopathic elite, who would sacrifice anyone in their way to rule over the scarcity that would otherwise exist.
RE: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Anyone can see that GM is on the verge of extinction, and management is at fault. Look at their stock price, and the fact that they have offered a buy out to every single remaining employee. This is de facto liquidation. GM and Detroit in general cannot build small fuel efficient cars at a profit. Toyota and others are smart enough to build assembly plants in conservative, white - and often Southern communities, away from urban problems and hire YOUNG MEN to work, so as to avoid health care and pension costs. Even Lee Iacocca groused about this situation. Competition has forced native automakers to offer buyouts to shed expensive workers. I can't blame unions for wanting benefits, nor management for trying to survive. We need a better health care and pension system to remove a huge competitive disadvantage. New ideas alone are a waste of time because such can be easily copied by foreign companies - and sadly, at less cost.
RE: [Vo]:Utility plans 1,000 MW of batteries including PHEV
Maybe the vanadium flow cells were more expensive. -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 12:35 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Utility plans 1,000 MW of batteries including PHEV A power utility is installing gigantic sodium sulfur batteries that store 7 MWH each. It also plans to use customer's PHEV as temporary storage. See: Utility Will Use Batteries to Store Wind Power http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/business/11battery.html AEP to Deploy Additional Large-Scale Batteries on Distribution Grid http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/CLTU05611092007- 1.htm Quote from ref # 1: A.E.P. intends to have 1,000 megawatts of energy storage on its system in the next decade, according to the company, and at least 25 megawatts from batteries of this type. A range of options is available for the remainder of the storage, including the use of plug-in hybrid cars, Mr. English said. The idea behind plug-in hybrids is that the owner of a car would charge the batteries every night when demand and cost of electricity were low. The next day, under a contract between the utility company and the driver, the car would be left plugged when not in use, and the power company could reverse the flow of electricity and draw power out of its batteries during times of peak demand. Enough power would be left in the batteries to start the engine, so that a driver returning to a drained car could still run it on gasoline until the batteries could be charged again at night. It would take more than 1,000 such vehicles to equal one of the sodium-sulfur batteries, however. In a related development, EEStor's supercapacitor has been in the mainstream news a lot lately. That would be way better than sodium sulfur batteries that operate at 800 deg F and are only 80% efficient full cycle. - Jed
RE: [Vo]: Mars Melt
I hope I got this right. If not, it's on Keelynet http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2007/02/quacks-cranks-and-junk-science.html Are global warming skeptics really cranks and kooks? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:51 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Melt NASA solar irradiance data: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/stp/SOLAR/IRRADIANCE/irrad.html On 3/1/07, Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.ht ml http://snipurl.com/1bozg Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says Kate Ravilious for National Geographic News February 28, 2007 Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural-and not a human-induced-cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory. Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. (Get an overview: Global Warming Fast Facts.) Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures. In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide ice caps near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row. more Ackshully, it's the emissions from those rovers. ;-)
[Vo]: Hydrogen Outta Nowhere?
I realize that completely eliminating all contamination is difficult but if protons can be popped out of the vacuum by an arc discharge, then I think we need to take another look at the Steady State theory of the universe. This could be one of those little experiments with big implications. http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/02/a_history_of_dark_matter.html
RE: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure.
What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are correct, it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? Because it would mean that vast numbers of people in and out of government are utter traitors and sociopaths - and that they are little more than obsequious thralls to a nearly all powerful military-industrial complex. The only people wise enough to see the plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe investigators. Anybody old enough to remember None Dare Call It Conspiracy? How we would all live in a fascist USA thanks to Nixon? Yes, from sacks of thermite ( Conspirator: what do mean, we can't use the elevator !?) to switched planes ( Dammit, Fred, you lost the luggage and the explosives?) - it's all hopeless and we're doomed. It's out of our control and we are powerless - in the face of such clockwork like precision and coordination among men who conspire with such amazing cohesion. We're just screwed - and thank God someone has exposed it all.
RE: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure.
From: John Berry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:34 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. Tell me, is Hitler still in power? No, but his evident followers apparently are - and have built an astounding conspiracy in 9-11 to perpetuate themselves in rulership. It's amazing. On 2/23/07, Zell, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are correct, it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? Because it would mean that vast numbers of people in and out of government are utter traitors and sociopaths - and that they are little more than obsequious thralls to a nearly all powerful military-industrial complex. The only people wise enough to see the plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe investigators. Anybody old enough to remember None Dare Call It Conspiracy? How we would all live in a fascist USA thanks to Nixon? Yes, from sacks of thermite ( Conspirator: what do mean, we can't use the elevator !?) to switched planes ( Dammit, Fred, you lost the luggage and the explosives?) - it's all hopeless and we're doomed. It's out of our control and we are powerless - in the face of such clockwork like precision and coordination among men who conspire with such amazing cohesion. We're just screwed - and thank God someone has exposed it all.
RE: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran
The Russians keep complaining that they aren't getting paid by the Iranians for nuke technology.
RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ?
No one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes? How deep does this fantasy go? Remote control? Robots? My point about government competence still stands and is confirmed everyday with the continuing failure to pacify Iraq. It's far more than 'Bush is a twit'. And the intelligence community is somehow above and beyond this level of ineptitude? You mean like WMD's in Iraq? or decades of mole-ridden ineffectiveness in the cold war? Soviet missile estimates? Success in Vietnam? Predictions that Cuba will collapse? Completely in the dark about Manhattan Project spies? Surprize by Sputnik? Surprize by Soviet nuclear success? Surprize by the fall of the Iron Curtain? Plots to discreetly kill Hugo Chavez instead of letting him return after a coup? Anything you wish to explain by competence - which is demanded in an extreme degree by a multi faceted and highly complex conspiracy - can be more easily explained by an inept government led by naive hacks -- and examined by paranoids who see God-like ability in those they despise. Can I also tell you how wildly ignorant Bill Clinton was? How reports surfaced that he made huge promises about healthcare and the budget without the simplest knowledge that the government was subject to bond traders and couldn't afford his plans? that he got upset with his aides when they told him this after he became president? Can I go on about other Presidents? How LBJ exposed his genitals to journalists to make a point? How frighteningly naive Carter was ( and is!) How the press quietly agreed not to talk about Reagan's Alzheimers? It's all a mess, not a conspiracy. From: John Berry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? That's my point exactly. What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with 'Bush is a twit'. Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like that. It's only a theory if there isn't absolute proof. On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building is maintained by hypnosis. The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real world government competence. Take a good look at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I don't see any reason why conspirators should haul Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well built as the Empire State building - when it survived A collision with a WWII vintage bomber.
RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
In regard to the spreading of plans, it is true that few people will bother to build anything BUT I am unaware of any real Free energy device out there, in the big wide world that actually works. Almost without exception, such claims are vague as to critical details and disappointing as to demonstrations. If I find a free energy electrical device, I will measure its performance by DC ONLY, no AC. There will be no questions about reactive power!
RE: [Vo]: Aspden Effect
I read about this effect and I don't understand it's relationship to supposed free energy. I've read stuff by Aspden about it and I don't comprehend why he sees this effect as having a bearing on free energy generation. On the other hand, I think he has some good points about ether. If empty space has permittivity and offers radiation resistance, how can it be nothing or not involve some sort of medium? If we keep giving properties to the vacuum, when do we return to it to being ether? If it walks and quacks like a duck, is it a duck? -Original Message- From: Colin Quinney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:03 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aspden Effect Vorts ! I am looking for an article... :) The Aspden Effect was first mentioned in an item that was published in the February 1995 issue of NEN (New Energy News). Vol 2, #10. pages 1, 2,... I have tried to order a back-copy . . . without success. The effect is anomalous angular momentum, some kind of virtual inertia- reported therein by Harold Aspden, and later described here: http://www.energyscience.org.uk/le/Le30/le30.html * ORIGINAL PAPER : http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE8E.html CONTENTS FOR FEBRUARY 1995: Vol. 2, No. 10 DISCOVERY OF VIRTUAL INERTIA 1 THE ASPDEN EFFECT .2 If anyone had a subscription at that time, may I please prevail upon you to obtain a copy? Thanks very much :) Best Regards, Colin Quinney crquin at rogers.com
[Vo]: What's The Deal With Steorn?
These Irish guys are claiming to have discovered free energy and have challenged the world by putting an ad in the Economist to evaluate their stuff. One of their patents is WO2006035419 but I can't get espace to open the document. Is this a version of Bearden's MEG all over again?
[Vo]: Steorn.net
I think it's www.steorn.net
RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism
What is disturbing also are the bogus assumptions that pass for thinking about terrorism. Such as: Appeasement: the biggest one of all. Europeans love appeasement. Ignore the terror, pay them off, hope for a better tomorrow. If that doesn't work, so what? If your art and literature is swelled with nihilism - and your baby cribs are collectively empty , remember that life has no meaning, anyway. Slash your military and pontificate to the rest of the world like old men on a porch, watching the world go by. Give Gaza back and things will improve. Retreat from Lebanon and things will get better. Accept blame for terror and accept Muslim victimhood and things will get better. Guess what? The more you do the above, the more effective terror tactics become! Imputing fairness to others: related to the above, what is fair? What was fair to Hitler? More importantly, what is fair to radical Muslims who see it as their God-given right to impose their religious law on you? And that Dhimmi-hood ( you PAY them as cursed infidels) is fair also? It is this fairness that causes European Muslim leaders to tell their flocks that welfare payments are owed to them, because the government is non Islamic and non believers owe them money, thereby. It is this fairness that causes Palestinian leaders to announce that they will target every city in Israel with rockets after Israel withdraws from the West Bank. And finally, the biggest human fallacy in social relations: Never, never, never understand that being positive to a spoiled child makes everything worse, Once the initial capitulation wears off. I'm sorry you're angry Mr. Hitler. If you promise to be good, we'll give you the Sudetenland? All right, all right, if you stop the tantrum , we'll let you have Czechoslovakia, too. Please be good, please, please. Treating these childish nations like adults is long overdue. Set up reasonable negotiations and don't let them weasel out of them. The two state solution In Palestine is a good start. If a Palestinian state ever emerges, it will exist purely because Israel exists. Or has Palestine not been dominated by every Passing empire across thousands of years of history?
RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism
Comparing the Japanese to modern suicide warriors brings little satisfaction. Their suicide was in defense of a nation with borders, not some vague fanatical notion Of a Muslim people. Thus, defeat or victory was easy to define. In addition, the suicide spirit was cultivated in wartime Japan, amidst all the isolation that entailed. This is a far cry from wandering thru airports, western colleges, strip bars, and various part time jobs in western businesses. A few officers like Yamamoto had extensive exposure to western lands and culture. His experience therefore made him more realistic - and somewhat pessimistic - about war with the US. He knew they needed a quick victory - something very different from the twisted schemes of Muslim fanatics. Shinto was the religion of a single nation and not something easily exported by missionaries, unlike the aggressive claims of Islam. The recent attempted bombings in London did not manifest a great deal of invested money - plane tickets and peroxide bombs are the weapons of the poor. Pakistan is not an oil power. On the other hand, loss of oil money might dry up some Wahabist schools. I also see some value in the current Shia/Sunni divide coming out in the open. It may be best to keep them divided and killing each other, if rationality cannot otherwise prevail.
RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism
I agree that cutting off the flow of oil derived wealth is the likely solution to most of the terror. Many Arab countries might be better off if their oil disappeared and they were forced to develop real, balanced economies that involve manufacturing and trade - like Turkey. If oil wealth were to evaporate, Iran in particular might become a surprizingly liberal democracy, with a secular basis. Supposedly, less than 25% of Iranians see religion as the dominant influence in their life. The best way to kill religion is to enshrine it as the government itself. That's why Americans are still religious and Europeans ( mostly) aren't - the failure of state sponsored religion. Even as I say this about oil wealth and terror, I realize that there is also some frightening evidence to the contrary. The Wall Street Journal published details, some time ago, about Bin Laden directed groups operating on a shoestring, with agents barely living on part time jobs while they plot murder. In addition, Atlantic magazine wrote about interviews with young Muslim men in Europe, who complained that they felt like nothing. It isn't politically correct to talk about this - but I think it should be clear that the ugly contrast of a prosperous and advanced Western world while Muslim countries are often miserable AND Muslims elevating themselves into the Favored of Allah ( with all others being infidels) - creates hate filled fantasies to explain why their culture is so backward. Jews, The Great Satan and infantile conspiracy theories take the place of harsh self analysis and change. You see this sort of sick reasoning everytime Indonesia has a tsunami. Things don't get any better as the 'idol-worshipping' Indians are finding prosperity. I hope that Doha, Qatar and other efforts give Muslims something to take pride In. Otherwise, a lack of oil money may not do the trick.
RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism
When 9-11 happened, what depressed and horrified me the most was not the actual losses of life and property, although they were bad enough. What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved might have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed alcohol. In short, they had every available benefit or pleasure western society offered - and still dedicated themselves to mass murder and suicide. If we cannot count on these sort of activities civilizing a person - or at least allowing them to release whatever intense emotion dominates them - I'm not sure what hope for humanity remains. What I fear most is the inevitable expansion of technology getting into Muslim hands - I hesitate to say radical Muslims because it still is not clear to me that such radicalism is really radical among large numbers of Muslims. At any rate, while cold fusion may not give us fissionable materials at present, We can't be sure that a simple procedure won't allow that kind of threat in the future, by whatever physics uncovers. We, of the west, have a right to survive as individuals and as a culture. I continue to hope that negotiation and good sense prevail everywhere, especially In the Middle East. Nevertheless, if these countries refuse to reform - and technology of mass destruction falls into the hands of terrorists with their blessings, I would not flinch at their mass annihilation. I am also horrified at the numbers of people who ignore this - and eagerly seize upon schemes of appeasement In the present crisis. Let's all hope for 'free energy' and the peace that it might bring about.
[Vo]: Whither the Polysulphide Battery?
I noticed that Stuart Licht's Polysulphide battery patent will expire in another year, relative to the '87 filing date. ( 4828942) It claims to be a cheap, efficient flow cell unit with 3 times the storage capacity of lead/metal systems. I can't find any evidence that it was ever built. I wonder what happened to it? I have tried to e-mail him with no reply.
[Vo]: Cavitation Propulsion?
Has anyone ever attempted to use cavitation as a form of propulsion? Perhaps that's what Schauberger or Clem were doing.
RE: [Vo]: OT: More than Ten Years After
You might not agree with the answer! I attended a seminar held by Russell Targ - who helped start the CIA's psychic viewing program in the '80's. He pointed out that somebody wrote a book about an unsinkable ocean liner called the Titan , years before the Titanic sank. Many of the fictional descriptions of the ship also corresponded to the real Titanic and of course, the Titan sank, too. His point? Imaginative people sometimes remote view the future without realizing it.
RE: [Vo]: Re: Stan Meyer - Autopsy Report
I wonder about Paul Brown. He warned everyone he was being threatened, discontinued his work - then re-started it later and died in an accident soon after. If tens of thousands die for oil in war, should inventors be off limits? Most of us have enough sense to avoid walking thru crime ridden neighborhoods or carefully walk across busy streets. Do we act the same way about disruptive technology? If the NSA monitors disruptive technology, are we to trust them as regards the definition of what disruptive means? Does it concern terrorism - or things that wreck financial markets by replacing oil? Do we get to openly debate the issue? Does Congress? Do various researchers remain alive as long as they fail to enter the popular realm of credibility? Can they be neutralized by ridicule and rank disbelief? -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Stan Meyer - Autopsy Report Oops, meant to say- ...nor was Gene Mallove murdered as part of a conspiracy. Of course he was murdered. Meyer was not even murdered. There was no big conspiracy to silence the enemies of 'Big Oil' in either case - at least there is no evidence of such.
RE: More on Meyer
Has ANYONE ever replicated Meyer's results? Even the Puharich patent doesn't seem as dramatic. OT, I feel more strongly about the work of Paul Brown - who, it appears to me, was far more rigorous and publically demonstrated than any ZPE/free energy enthusiast. Yet, I never hear about anyone taking up his work on Betavoltaics. As with Meyer, what's the truth in this?
Butanol
I must confess I've never heard of this. It sounds somewhat astonishing. http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Butanol A gasoline substitute that's cheap and fully equal in BTU energy
RE: Betteries
True, but in this case we are storing the best form of energy, electricity as opposed to a car engine. You might need cheaper electricity to make this gadget more than a marginal improvement over what we're stuck with now. 20% is also about the efficiency of an ICE, which is also a bit painful, but we use them anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
RE: Betteries
The thing to analyze is the efficiency. 20% for the Euro device is a bit painful. As I look into the archives, I see Chris Zell originally posted on this Al bettery some time ago. US patent 6,482,548 describes a similar technology with almost as great an energy density: ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Home Power Hybrid
Home Power magazine ( June 06) did a nice analysis of a Ford hybrid vs non hybrid. The guy intends to keep it for ten years @ 20K miles a year. He projects coming out well ahead - and throws in a battery change in year 6. I'd still like to hear more evidence about superior gas mileage on highway driving , however. It's hard to understand the improvement in efficiency over a regular car in high gear and cruising.
RE: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet.
At present, even defenders of hybrids seem to admit that over all cost savings from higher gas mileage - and apart from subsidies - mean you have to run them for 15 years or rack up an extreme amount of odometer mileage. Maintenance costs on such a new technology are likely to high , as well. - although constant speed gas engine might do very well as to lifetime between rebuilds. For God's sake, somebody throw a diesel in here! ( given the extreme longevity of some truck engines) The premium over the price of a regular car is a problem. I sincerely hope that it follows the path of VCRs - which dropped from $2000+ ( Cartivision from Sears) down to the present $80-90 at Walmart. If it doesn't drop, we've got a problem. When I see more energy used in the manufacture of hybrids, I mean all the costs of manufacture from raw materials upward , into finished parts - and I don't trust any academic estimates in this - only free markets can tell us the answer. ( Old Soviet joke: Gorbachev said that when Communism takes over the world, they will have to leave New Zealand alone, to get some idea of what prices should be!) What do we save in hybrid manufacture? No mechanical powertrain. What extra do we pay for? More batteries, more complex controls ( Asian factories can bring the cost down) , a big electric motor ( possibly combined with some braking generation). You still need an engine big enough to power the car up long hills, after the batteries give out. ( if this is not provided, I expect to see stalled hybrids on the shoulders of highways around Scranton, Pennsylvania - any one remember 30,000 lbs. Of Bananas by Harry Chapin?) If anyone can make this work ( $ -wise), I think Toyota can. Good Lord, is copper $4 a pound today? Jed Rothwell wrote: Zell, Chris wrote: Consumer Reports claims hybrid gas mileage is 19 mpg lower than the EPA says and are among the worst in mileage exaggeration. http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460 But they are the best in mileage! According to the Consumer Reports list on this page! I think it's also worth noting that CU admits that they made a *mistake* in their comparison of hybrids with other cars. The added the extra depreciation _and_ the extra initial purchase cost to the cost of owning a hybrid, and so concluded that overall the hybrid was more expensive. In a response to a letter in a recent issue they stated that by erroneously double-counting the higher price they skewed it toward conventional vehicles; without the double-counting, the hybrids came out cheaper. I don't have the details but I might be able to find the issue if anyone cares. (And if I actually saw this in someone else's letter to Vortex, rather than in CU itself, then I will apologize and will feel intense embarrassment as penance.)
Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet.
Consumer Reports claims hybrid gas mileage is 19 mpg lower than the EPA says and are among the worst in mileage exaggeration. http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460 Given the cost premium over a regular vehicle, it's likely that hybrids are actually wasting more energy thru their entire lifespan, beginning with construction at the factory. On the other hand, they may permit an easier transition to at least part time electric cars. Se la vie.
An Electric car for Wifey
When electric cars are developed, the operating costs are going to be compelling for households with two or more vehicles and businesses that operate fleets of cars locally. Even with $3 gasoline, electric vehicles are going to be much cheaper to operate per mile. The obstacle will be the initial cost of purchase but volume should bring that down. In the hilly area where I live, I can foresee a lot of regenerative braking on descents, instead of wearing out my rotors and pads.
RE: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
Guys, many of us have two ( or more ) cars in our households. So, you can buy a electric car for short trips for wifey and a gasoline or hybrid for longer distances. Better yet, just buy the hybrid and charge it overnight, saving the engine for those long trips to the relatives. -Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:49 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 10:18:49 +0200: Hi, [snip] My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your muscles) if your battery is empty on the street, not so for a purely electric car, this is why the best we can have is ICE-electric hybrids until we have fast recharge. We won't have The Really Good Battery as Chris calls it until we have fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. [snip] But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power supplies, which isn't a problem, because they are dedicated, and there are proportionally not a lot of them. Private homes don't need such heavy duty facilities because one can afford to take longer to do the recharge. Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, and save. The problem you describe also existed when gasoline vehicles were first introduced, and before gas stations became ubiquitous. In fact the introduction of electric vehicles would probably be a lot less stressful than early gasoline was, because people would have the capability to recharge at home. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes
This is the title of an editorial in the May 2006 copy of Evaluation Engineering magazine, page 6. Some quotes: . Altair Nanotechnologies, a supplier of advanced nanomaterials, has developed a lithium-ion battery that could enable an electric vehicle to perfom equally as well as a conventional car. To prove the technology, Altair is partnering with Boshart Engineering to incorporate the new battery design into a prototype electric vehicle and begin road testing by year-end ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight minutes ...the new batteries will sport three times more power and be able to be recharged 20,000 times instead of 750 for existing ones. The Really Good Battery: the one invention that will change everything from global warming to Arab governments.
Another Depolymerization Claim
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb379366.htm The choice: risk air pollution with depoly schemes or risk water pollution by continuing to bury refuse. Still, it's a step forward.
Thermite fun
See: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7231843493488769585q=thermite; pl=true Lots of fun with thermite
RE: moving vs stationary weights
I believe you should check out Kozyrev ( sp?) on this subject. He claimed that motion could change mass ( at non relativistic speeds). Rex research might have one or more of his papers. -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:26 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: moving vs stationary weights If you are bicycling fast enough you can cross a wooden plank spanning ditch before the plank breaks. Normally we say this is because it takes time for the plank to deform and break when subjected to a weight. However, consider for a moment an alternative and naive(?) explanation: it because you weigh less when you are moving than when you are stationary. The idea is your motion reduces your gravitational mass ( independently of your inertial mass) while gravitational acceleration remains unchanged. While this theory is probably wrong, it would be easy to test in practice. See my 40k pdf file for an illustration of the theory. http://web.ncf.ca/eo200/dynamics/testing_weight.pdf Another test would be to take a bathroom scale on a plane or a train and weigh oneself. Has anyone done this by chance? Harry
RE: Simple comparison electric car versus gasoline
I have feared that, perhaps, we have encountered fundamental problems with trying to squeeze more energy density and low cost efficiency out of an electrochemical process such as batteries depend on. Where can we go beyond lithium? That's why the ultracap approach is so exciting - it's a whole new way to fix the energy storage problem. -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:07 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Simple comparison electric car versus gasoline Zell, Chris wrote: This lack of additional generating capacity need is partly why a Really Good Battery would have such a dramatic effect on society. You create electric cars that run much cheaper per mile without much need for additional fossil fuel generator use. Indeed, I think that such a device would encourage an explosion of alternative development that would quickly challenge utilities fossil fuel use. Don't forget, Chris: it works the other way too. Sometimes superior technology creates the opportunity, and sometimes opportunity gives rise to superior technology. This is what is happening now with batteries. We do not have Really Good Batteries but we do have Considerably Improved Batteries, such as the latest generation that are going into hybrid cars and the upcoming plug-in hybrid cars. Hundreds of thousands of hybrid cars have been manufactured and this has created a large market for improved batteries, and a flood of RD funding. This, in turn, may eventually give rise to radically improved versions and the Holy Grail you speak of: the Really Good Battery. Batteries also improved over the last 20 years thanks to the demand for cell phones and portable computers. Persistent demand and a flood of RD funding will not produce a radical breakthrough such as cold fusion. That sort of thing only comes along once every century or so, and it is the product of genius with no connection to the quotidian world of money and business. (Believe me, CF researchers live in a mental space light years away from what usually passes for reality.) But RD funding will produce incremental improvements, and that may be enough to produce the Really Good Battery. Incremental improvements brought us microprocessors with 100 million components and 20 GB hard disks that fit into your pocket. Such things would have seemed utterly incredible 30 years ago -- to me, anyway. Yet they did not require any fundamental or surprising discoveries, just persistent slogging and one small improvement after another. - Jed
RE: Simple comparison electric car versus gasoline
This lack of additional generating capacity need is partly why a Really Good Battery would have such a dramatic effect on society. You create electric cars that run much cheaper per mile without much need for additional fossil fuel generator use. Indeed, I think that such a device would encourage an explosion of alternative development that would quickly challenge utilities fossil fuel use. In their late night nightmares, I suspect that Arab nations fear such a development, as some of them take a long term view , such as the Saudis. -Original Message- From: Michel Jullian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:17 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple comparison electric car versus gasoline Jed you made an excellent point here, as amazing as it may seem no additional generator capacity would be needed (if your maths are right which they seem to be). Michel - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:28 PM Subject: Re: Simple comparison electric car versus gasoline Horace Heffner wrote: We may get away with that for a while, but sooner or later the states have to find a way to pay for the road maintenance currently paid for by gas taxes. Meanwhile, the lack of road taxes on electricity is a great and automatic incentive. I had not thought of that. However, the Federal road maintenance highway tax is only $.18 per gallon, or 0.8 cents per mile for the average car. You could replace it with a mileage tax based on the odometer reading, or a simple flat fee per vehicle. The above map only shows current electric prices, not the incremental cost of new electricity. It reflects much old capital invested in dams, etc. New electricity from wind power or large-scale solar in the Southwest is presently expensive but if it is developed on a large scale it will soon become dramatically cheaper. As vehicles are converted from petroleum to electric power the incremental demand will cause new the electric rates to come more closely in line nation wide. Actually, electric vehicles use such a small amount of electricity, I doubt that any additional generator capacity will be needed. Some additional fuel will be burned and fissioned, of course. Here is 2001 data from the Annual Energy Review 2002: Average annual mileage (miles per vehicle): 11,766 Miles per day: 32 Electric vehicle consumption per mile: 0.3 to 0.5 kWh (Wikipedia) Electric energy per day: 16 kWh In other words, recharging a car would be like plugging in a 1.5 kW electric room heater for just over 10 hours. If every US household did this from 9:00 p.m. until the next morning, it would put no strain on our generating capacity. It would be a problem with everyone did it at 3 p.m. a summer afternoon, but not at night. In many houses you could probably turn off a half-dozen lights and a television to save most of this power. If the car dealerships and grocery stores a few miles from my house would turn off half the lights they leave burning all night, they would save enough electricity to power every car in the County! - Jed
Austria: It ain't hopeless
From the Financial Times Jan. 30, 2006 page 6 In 2003, nearly 70 percent of Austria's domestically produced power came from renewable sources. Biomass fuelled 11.2 percent of Austria's total primary energy supply and 21 per cent of heat production Not only do forests grow back, they absorb carbon dioxide from the air as they grow. With almost half of Austria covered in forests, wood fired schemes have grown in popularity Biomass energy is a growing business in Austria A new market in wood pellets - compressed sawdust that is drier, cleaner and easier to transport than other biomass fuels - was key to the spread of domestic boilers Austria is pushing biomass in EU and having success doing it. Much of the biomass comes from by- products of existing forestry such as sawdust, chips and low grade logs.
Ethanol breakthrough
See: www.techbriefs.com/techsearch/tow/ethanol.html Produces profitable ethanol and silica from waste plant material. Market already exists for rice growers to use device, to profit from present waste.
New Battery Hope
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/A rticle_Type1c=Articlecid=1141599010468call_pageid=970599109774col=Co lumnist971715454851 The above is exactly what I've hoped for in regard to batteries. If they can perfect this, the whole world changes : the trade deficit, terrorism, the economy, Pollution, peak oil, global warming, - all of it. One really good battery would be an social, political and economic explosion bigger than the birth of the internet.
RE: New Battery Hope
If the link is too difficult to use, do a web search on EEStor and their ceramic ultracap. The rumors spilling out are stunning. -Original Message- From: Zell, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 3:20 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: New Battery Hope http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/A rticle_Type1c=Articlecid=1141599010468call_pageid=970599109774col=Co lumnist971715454851 The above is exactly what I've hoped for in regard to batteries. If they can perfect this, the whole world changes : the trade deficit, terrorism, the economy, Pollution, peak oil, global warming, - all of it. One really good battery would be an social, political and economic explosion bigger than the birth of the internet.
RE: Cow Poop to Miles Per Gallon
I'm sorry, I don't want any sham poo I want the real poo. From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 9:26 AMTo: vortex-l@eskimo.comSubject: Re: Cow Poop to Miles Per Gallon True, Richard. In a phone conversation with Pete Domenici years ago we discussed how much energy the BS around Washington could produce. Makes economic sense if you have the right Cattle List, No? Sham-Poop Facials for the ladies? Fred - Original Message - From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 3/3/2006 7:03:12 AM Subject: Re: Cow Poop to Miles Per Gallon Howdy Fred, I've heard the smell of C**S*** called a lot of things in Texas, but Vanillin?? WalMart sell a 40 lb bag of cow manure for .97 cents and our Texas Legislature passes out BS for free. Where is the enonomic sense ? Richard - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 7:49 AM Subject: Re: Cow Poop to Miles Per Gallon Kilowatts per Kilo? Japanese Make Gasoline From Cattle Dung By KOZO MIZOGUCHI (Associated Press Writer) From Associated PressMarch 03, 2006 7:57 AM EST TOKYO - Scientists in energy-poor Japan said Friday they have found a new source of gasoline - cattle dung. Sakae Shibusawa, an agriculture engineering professor at the Tokyo University of Agriculture and Technology, said his team has successfully extracted 1.4 milliliters (0.042 ounces) of gasoline from every 100 grams (3.5 ounces) of cow dung by applying high pressure and heat. "The new technology will be a boon for livestock breeders" to reduce the burden of disposing of large amounts of waste, Shibusawa said. About 500,000 metric tons (551,155 U.S. tons) of cattle dung are produced each year in Japan, he said. Gasoline extracted from cow dung is unheard of, said Tomiaki Tamura, an official of the Natural Resources and Energy Agency. Japan relies almost totally on imports for its oil and gasoline needs. The team, helped by staff from the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology near Tokyo, produced gasoline by adding several unspecified metal catalysts to the dung inside a container and applying a 30-atmosphere pressure and heat of up to 300 degrees Celsius (572 Fahrenheit), Shibusawa said. Details of the catalysts could not be disclosed, he added. The team hopes to improve the technology so that it can be used commercially within five years, Shibusawa said. In a separate experiment revealing another unusual business potential for cow dung, another group of researchers has successfully extracted an aromatic ingredient of vanilla from cattle dung, said Miki Tsuruta, a Sekisui Chemical Co. spokeswoman. The extracted ingredient, vanillin, can be used as fragrance in shampoo and candles, she said.
RE: Sprain Mag Motor
The oldest question: If it's real, you should be able to make it self running, with an output of excess power. If this seems possible, I would try to design something using a bunch of ultracapacitors to hold the juice - and thereby avoid any questions about batteries being a circuit element, as has happened in the Correa device, etc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:41 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor -Original Message- From: Grimer Let's hope so. I'll be interested to read your impression of the demo. I saw convincing evidence of 6 Newton-meters produced by 3.2 Watt-seconds. The electrical energy was displayed on a good digital oscope. The inventor used the conservative values for V and I in his Ws calculation. We actually ran several tests. He filters out high frequency components on his electrical input which actually makes the Ws calculation more conservative. He uses a custom made torque measurement device from Lorentz something from Germany. I was a bit concerned to learn that it used a Hall effect device until they agreed to hold a neodymium magnet near the transducer with no apparent effect. We got into a brief discussion on theory. They have their opinion; but, we disagreed. I cut that discussion short; although, one concrete-head's ideas did get injected. I have no doubts that he has spent the near $1M he claims on the development. He showed me several prototypes. He went public Wednesday with the prototype. I was person number 5 to request a viewing. They asked me lots of trick questions. I got most of them right. g Paul Sprain, the inventor, is from Birmingham (there not here). Can't seem to shake you Brits. Anyone have any questions? I believe I can get others in to see the device if there are any takers. It is magnificent. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
RE: Energy Amplifier subcritical reactor
Ah, Thorium! An encyclopedia will tell you that there is more energy in the world's thorium deposits that all the oil, gas and coal combined. Trouble is: how do I power my car with it? -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:22 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy Amplifier subcritical reactor The author of the article cited below mislead me. After checking his sources, it seems India is not building a reactor based on the concept energy amplification. They are building a prototype commercial fast breeder reactor and the only thing it has in common with Carlo Rubbia's proposal is that they both use thorium. Harry Carlo Rubbia originated the idea of the energy amplifier. http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue411/labnotes.html The paragraph below came from the link above. Harry At the Bhaba Atomic Research Center near Kalpakkam, nuclear eggheads like Anil Kakodkar have been noodling with thorium since 1995, and are currently building a pilot plant to work the bugs out of Carlo Rubbia's design. If all goes well, the reactor should begin producing continuous power by the end of the decade, and should pave the way for nine commercial workhorses due to come online between 2010 and 2020. If the scheme worksand there's no scientific reason why it shouldn'tit could well pave the way for a global migration to fission technology safe enough for urban areas and Third World dictatorships. So, far from ignoring the problem or playing the politics of half-measures, India is positioning itself for the realities of Kyoto and the decline of fossil fuels, and plans to be a leader in 21st century energy technology. I say, more power to 'em!
RE:
if we want to live like third-world peasants. We are headed in that direction. More sad hysteria horrendous and totally uncontrolled pollution caused by ethanol production You are not even aware it exists. Amazing - and now you're a mind reader Jobs in rural areas that also reduce oil dependence are important If your purpose is to steal money from taxpayers and give it to unemployed rural people, why not be honest and simply put them on welfare? They will do far less damage to the land and the economy if we simply pay them off, rather than paying them off to waste a few hundred million barrels of oil. More hysteria Giving people real work does give them dignity and purpose in life, but I do not think it helps to give people pretend make-work in a government boondoggle like ethanol. In any case, they might as well admit that all they are doing is stealing from the rest of us. Frankly, those people should be ashamed to accept the money. They should be forced to jump through rings and surrender their assets and self-respect, the way urban welfare cases are. Both they and their representatives in Congress seem quite happy
Shell Oil says NO Peak
www.worldnetdaily.com/biznetdaily/
Do we have peak uranium, too?
We haven't had any new nuclear power plants built in many years. Since any notion of NIMBYism is to be rejected ( despite overwhelming political evidence that it is real), the clear answer is THAT URANIUM HAS PEAKED! The same goes for the rich Cape Cod elitists who don't want wind turbines off their coast. Clearly, saving birds is paramount. Why build nuclear power plants when we know that uranium is running out? Surely, the situation is no different than the fact that the US hasn't built a new refinery since 1976 - Obviously, everyone knew - 30 YEARS AGO - that we were running out of oil and refineries were a waste of time. Obvious too, is the fact that everyone knows that coal/ shale/ thermal pyrolysis treated garbage will never give us significant sources of oil. What are Pennsylvania and Montana thinking, when they to spend billions for this? Those estimates of centuries worth of coal aren't to be taken seriously. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a reality check..
RE: Message from D. Pimentel
Well, that settles it. The voice of God has spoken and settled the matter for us. His 2003 study claims that Brazil dropped subsidies because ethanol production was ineffective. Yet, ethanol has expanded there, along with ethanol exports doubling recently. Apparently, they found ways to become more efficient. Ain't science wonderful? Also strange? He's associated with Cornell , close to wine country - yet, the notion of increasing ethanol production efficiency by an ice wine technique In a New England climate doesn't occur to him. H. Now, what would be more impressive would be to compare market costs of gasoline BTUs and ethanol BTUs , after subtracting all subsidies for both. -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:04 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Message from D. Pimentel I wrote to Prof. P.: It must be terribly frustrating for you to hear Bush talk about ethanol in the State of the Union speech. You have my sympathy! He responded: Thanks for your note. It is frustrating and all this is undermining our nation. Darn right. - Jed
RE: Do we have peak uranium, too?
-Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:38 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Do we have peak uranium, too? At 10:24 AM 2/3/2006, you wrote: Zell, Chris wrote: We haven't had any new nuclear power plants built in many years. Since any notion of NIMBYism is to be rejected ( despite overwhelming political evidence that it is real) Nuclear power plants have been rejected by power companies, not citizens. Are you serious? Is this a joke? Do protests mean nothing? Political pressure? Lawsuits? Earth First vandalism? Citizens do not like them either but that never stopped the power companies from building them in the past. The power companies like to blame the situation on environmentalists but that is nonsense. Is there any historical reality to this? Like the Shoreham disaster - in which billions were spent AND WASTED because politicians decided that Long Island traffic prevented escape (DECIDED AFTER THE FACT!) - and the plant couldn't go on line? The inept, NIMBY -led NY government then tried to buy out the electric company and discovered they couldn't afford the debt, so electric rates shot through the roof in Long Island. Speculators made a killing buying utility stock that plunged. Here's reality: Big companies have learned that NIMBYism can be disastrous - which is why these sort of plants were built IN THE PAST, as you say. No new refineries and no new nukes in decades because of NIMBYism. Ask TV engineers about NIMBYism and trying to build towers - it's a mess and interfereing with the transition to digital. It's now happening with wind turbines, too.
RE: Message from D. Pimentel
-Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:32 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Message from D. Pimentel . This comment is petulant and sophomoric. You should read his papers carefully and then if you find a technical error, let us know. His error is his utter lack of imagination, as I point out with the ice wine idea to concentrate alcohol. Countless professors at Cornell can drive past endless miles of unfarmed lands around Ithaca and all of New England - and then publish nonsense about eating up all of Americas farm land and letting the poor starve (which currently seems to be the latest NIMBY argument against biofuel). As for Brazil and the rest - so now ethanol is a human rights issue? You're getting desperate. The difference in ethanol price between Brazil and the US is not so great that it can't reasonably be overcome by further efficiencies that don't involve slave labor ( which usually isn't very productive, anyway).
RE: Do we have peak uranium, too?
I appreciate your thinking about the multiple motivations here, of which NIMByism plays a major part. My experience with all executives is that they usually suffer from a great deal of isolated thinking, encouraged by the limited vision of people around them. Besides the destructive effects of NIMBYism, such leaders also have to deal with the severe volatility of energy markets. Prediction in this field has been depressingly inaccurate, as to supplies and prices. Energy companies got caught holding expensive oil when prices fell some years ago. While some may believe in Peak Oil, others may hold confidence in alternative oil supplies derived from coal, shale, tar sands or garbage. Far from pessimism about this, I see 60+ oil as a godsend for alternative development. -Original Message- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:54 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Do we have peak uranium, too? Zell, Chris wrote: We haven't had any new nuclear power plants built in many years. Since any notion of NIMBYism is to be rejected You are misconstruing a lot of things here. Peak oil was predicted quite a long time back, as a result of modeling available oil in the ground, and is not a conclusion based on watching oil company behavior regarding new refineries. In fact, it's the other way around -- we watch oil company behavior, and say, Oh, we can explain what they're doing by assuming they've seen the peak-oil estimates too. Maybe that's right and maybe it's wrong; it's an attempt at figuring out what's going on inside oil company executives's heads and is therefore on far shakier ground than the peak-oil conclusion itself. There are obviously a number of reasons why people in many parts of the world are opposed to nuclear plants, not least of which is the waste problem, which appears to me to have been exacerbated by proliferation fears, which make spent-fuel reprocessing and research into breeder reactors much trickier political issues than they would be otherwise. Another issue, which feeds into NIMBY-ism, is that trust in government and industry is pretty low in a lot of quarters, and a lot of people at the grass-roots level just don't believe they're safe when industry plays with hazardous materials near their homes. Interesting side note: Do you remember glow-in-the-dark digital watches? They were really useful -- more convenient than the push-the-button-to-turn-on-the-light things we've got now, IMHO. But they vanished from the market right after Three Mile Island. Once people get scared of something it's hard to get them to accept it again, in any form.
RE: Message from D. Pimentel
-Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:48 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Message from D. Pimentel Zell, Chris wrote: As for Brazil and the rest - so now ethanol is a human rights issue? You're getting desperate. Not me; the peasants and children of Brazil are desperate. This has been a human rights issue from the beginning. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Indeed - and the cited reference above seems to soundly disprove the notion that ethanol is responsible. (!!!??) I think US farmers can handle this without a return to slavery.
RE: Message from D. Pimentel
-Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:21 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Message from D. Pimentel Zell, Chris wrote: I think US farmers can handle this without a return to slavery. Absolutely! They do this by replacing human labor with machinery, energy intense production methods, fertilizer and pesticides. All that matters is the price per BTU, without subsidy for either gasoline or ethanol. That is the valid determinant, not the pessimism of prejudiced academics. As to efficiency, studies done of Amish farming showed good profitability during the '70s, when farm failures were commonly reported - despite little use of pesticides or energy intensive methods. Nor does the growth of cellulose necessarily need lots of fertilizer or pesticides compared to other products. - and tractors can run on ethanol, too.
RE: Bush and ethanol in Slate.com
Much of the criticism about ethanol is simple pessimism, and ignores the likelihood that the technology will improve as it develops. www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1556439.htm -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:09 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Bush and ethanol in Slate.com See: http://www.slate.com/id/2135236/nav/tap2/ And especially this, from last year, describing Pimentel and Patzek's conclusions: http://www.slate.com/id/2122961/ - Jed
RE: Are Big Oil Conspiracies Really Off-Base?
Title: Message From: John Coviello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 6:19 PMTo: vortex-l@eskimo.comSubject: Re: Are Big Oil Conspiracies Really Off-Base? The way I see it, our dependence on oil is the product of one of the most far flung social engineering projects ever undertaken. From dismantling trolley lines in the early 20th Century to ensuring auto efficiency standards do not put too much pressure on the demand side of oil, to providing $10Billions of federal monies each year to protect oil supplies overseasmilitarily,the federal government has engineered our dependence on oil and has put alternative energy technologies and transportation modes at a marketplace disadvantage. If there was enough need for new refining facilities, they would get built. We are now building LNG facilities, we have continued to build power plants all over the place. New refiniers aren't being built because the industry either doesn't want them to put more supplies on the market and depress pricesor more likely they don't see a return on investment for a product that will price itself out of the market within a decade or two. see: www.reason.org/commentaries/moore_20050901.shtml It may take 15 or 20 years to build a refinery, if you can get past the political pressure from environmentalists. Power plantscan be difficult and nuclear power plants are simply impossible to site. Barrons ran an article about this, quoting industry leaders complaining that they simply can't site refineries in the US- it's nearly impossible. If you've been following the news, the Democrats suggested building refineries at shut down military bases BUT the idea was shot down almost instantaneously by environmentalists. The politiciansjust gave up. Is this board so full of satisfied opinions that no one even bothers to do a Google search on the facts? If these discussions typify the depth of thinking in alternative energy, we're in bigger trouble than I thought.
