Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

Lila, As you have appended your message to this thread, I assume that there is 
a non-zero probability that you are referring to one or more of the  
contributors to the thread. I do not consider any of the mails included to be 
polarizing rhetoric, so could you inform us whether you do, and if so, which, 
or whether there was another reason why that specific comment was appended here.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lila Tretikov
Sent: Saturday, 05 September 2015 7:16 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

First, thanks to all of those who worked in good faith, with patience and care 
for each other to solve this problem. I appreciate the level of compromise and 
empathy that was required from teams at WMIL and WMF. Thank you!

Second, I want to highlight that this is a *our* issue, we are a community and 
we need to think about our *one mission* to engage every human with knowledge, 
before our individual goals. Let's please remember that before we detract and 
distract with polarizing rhetoric (you know who you are on this list). Bring up 
issues, suggest solutions. But please, in good faith and with care for each 
other.

Thanks all,
Lila


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> 
wrote:

> I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a 
> cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons 
> for needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on 
> whether their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so 
> forthcoming in response to queries.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments 
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising 
> targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
>
> My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a 
> deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think 
> that someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, 
> which might also be helpful.
>
> I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the 
> stakeholders take it from here.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < 
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a 
> > near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal 
> > incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it 
> > is due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future.
> > Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their 
> > mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have 
> > learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not 
> > get
> the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> > Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by 
> > stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith 
> > and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate 
> > supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at 
> > this point.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves 
> > Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations 
> > (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community 
> > Resources / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that 
> > Fundraising has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give 
> > them some breathing room, especially because they say that banner 
> > scheduling will be coordinated next year.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < 
> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they 
> > > decided, and wh

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

I think everyone here worked in good faith, and everyone started with
patience in this situation. Suggesting otherwise suggests a lack of empathy.
But we should not close our eyes when the community is being played in a
non fair way, and I then mean NOT the bocking banner, but how the
interaction went. This issue is not the first time that the fundraising
team has shown us rude behaviour.

There was no polarizing rhetoric, the rhetoric used was used when the
polarisation already happened. And was only used when the edge of care,
patience and reasonable was passed long ago. It is nice to call here in
public that we should bring up issues and suggest solutions, but we have
done so.

I find it disturbing that WMF does not recognise their own worse behaviour
(of *some* staff), and sticks their head in the sand.

If you say that it is *our* issue, a different attitude should be used: the
community has not been treated as a stakeholder, while we are.
As long as the community is not actually seen as stakeholder, it makes
highlighting *one mission* being empty words

It is said (by WMF staff) that we should come to a better planning of
CentralNotice banners, we are open for that as we have called for this
already 2013. We are open to this and are waiting.

Greetings,
Romaine





2015-09-05 7:15 GMT+02:00 Lila Tretikov <l...@wikimedia.org>:

> First, thanks to all of those who worked in good faith, with patience and
> care for each other to solve this problem. I appreciate the level of
> compromise and empathy that was required from teams at WMIL and WMF. Thank
> you!
>
> Second, I want to highlight that this is a *our* issue, we are a community
> and we need to think about our *one mission* to engage every human with
> knowledge, before our individual goals. Let's please remember that before
> we detract and distract with polarizing rhetoric (you know who you are on
> this list). Bring up issues, suggest solutions. But please, in good faith
> and with care for each other.
>
> Thanks all,
> Lila
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a
> > cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for
> > needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether
> > their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so
> forthcoming
> > in response to queries.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising
> > targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
> >
> > My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a
> > deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think
> that
> > someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might
> > also be helpful.
> >
> > I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the
> > stakeholders take it from here.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a
> > > near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal
> > > incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is
> > > due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future.
> > > Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their
> > > mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have
> > > learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get
> > the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> > > Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders
> > > often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in
> > > the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting
> > > the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > > Sent: Friday, 04 September 2

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Craig Franklin]

Firstly, I'm delighted to see that a mutually acceptable compromise has
been reached here.  Well done everyone in coming together with the best
interests of the entire movement in mind.

If I can make a suggestion though, I'd suggest that the fundraising team
and the community, particularly the WLM crew, get together *now* and try to
work out how those campaigns are going to be coordinated so that this
doesn't happen again next year, while there are still good vibes in the
air.  Something we're all really bad at as a movement, is procrastinating
on these sort of issues, but if there is a bit of forward planning there's
no reason that everyone can't have their cake and eat it too.

Cheers,
Craig

On 31 August 2015 at 21:02, Megan Hernandez <mhernan...@wikimedia.org>
wrote:

> Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I
> have written together.
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you
> in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and
> WMF.
>
> There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important
> campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution
> campaign and annual effort.  Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and
> the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet.
> Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
>
> WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible
> solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone
> and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of
> the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves
> Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several
> hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not
> sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend
> coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
>
> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target.
>
> Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past
> on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as
> fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get
> more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser.
> We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look
> forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely
> going forward.
>
> It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast
> and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community
> Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your
> effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is
> how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going
> forward.
>
> Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the
> problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank
> you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new
> contributions this year.
>
>
> Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no
> > relevance...
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
> > Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> > Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> worked
> > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you al

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near miss 
incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident would be 
investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so that the same 
situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that fail to do this are 
doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may 
well have learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get 
the opportunity to learn by the mistake. Refusal to answer reasonable and 
legitimate questions by stakeholders often leads to accusations of conspiracy 
and bad faith and can end in the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate 
supply, inciting the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at 
this point.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like the 
WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were working 
from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to change their 
plans, I think we should give them some breathing room, especially because they 
say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next year.



Pine


On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < 
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, 
> and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not 
> taken into consideration by these planners.
> Cheers,
> P
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments 
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I just want to respond to this point in particular:
>
> "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time 
> in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a 
> target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for 
> work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will 
> need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for 
> missing the September target."
>
> It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule 
> and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate 
> in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's 
> taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks 
> to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
>
> "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what 
> it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
>
> "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go 
> out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
>
> Thanks Megan and all.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour < 
> mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> > wrote:
>
> > Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> >
> >> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first 
> >> time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting 
> >> a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up 
> >> for work missed in September.
> >> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there 
> >> will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up 
> >> for missing the September target.
> >>
> >
> > The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its 
> > target" and in smooth communication.
> >
> > We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF 
> > these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think 
> > it has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer 
> > neighbouring companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they 
> > roughly think: "Why should we have 15 time less employees than 
> > Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising targets can be more 
> > important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big 
> > country ! :-P
> >
> > Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide 
> > donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapte

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Pine W]

I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising
targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?

My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a
deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that
someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might
also be helpful.

I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the
stakeholders take it from here.

Pine


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a near
> miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal incident
> would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is due, but so
> that the same situation can be avoided in the future. Organisations that
> fail to do this are doomed to repeat their mistakes, not necessarily by the
> same people, who may well have learned, but often by other departments,
> where the people did not get the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders often
> leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in the local
> demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting the torch and
> pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like
> the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were
> working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to
> change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room,
> especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next
> year.
>
>
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided,
> > and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not
> > taken into consideration by these planners.
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > I just want to respond to this point in particular:
> >
> > "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time
> > in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a
> > target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for
> > work missed in September.
> > It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will
> > need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for
> > missing the September target."
> >
> > It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule
> > and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate
> > in the context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's
> > taking the community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks
> > to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
> >
> > "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what
> > it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
> >
> > "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go
> > out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
> >
> > Thanks Megan and all.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <
> > mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first
> > >> time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting
> > >> a target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up
> > >> for work missed in September.
> > >> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there
> > >> will need to be adjustment

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a cause of 
the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for needing 
banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether their analysis 
is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so forthcoming in response to 
queries.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising targets or 
the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?

My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a deconfliction of 
banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that someone suggested 
setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might also be helpful.

I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the 
stakeholders take it from here.

Pine


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> 
wrote:

> One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a 
> near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal 
> incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is 
> due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future. 
> Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their 
> mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have 
> learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get the 
> opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders 
> often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in 
> the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting 
> the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments 
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations 
> (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources 
> / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising 
> has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some 
> breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling 
> will be coordinated next year.
>
>
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood < 
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, 
> > and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was 
> > not taken into consideration by these planners.
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves 
> > Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > I just want to respond to this point in particular:
> >
> > "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first 
> > time in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a 
> > target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for 
> > work missed in September.
> > It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there 
> > will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for 
> > missing the September target."
> >
> > It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its 
> > schedule and forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem 
> > appropriate in the context of this conversation, particularly 
> > regarding WMF's taking the community's priorities into account and 
> > absorbing the risks to its plans that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
> >
> > "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also 
> > what it takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
> >
> > "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go 
> > out in the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
> >
> > Thanks Meg

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Lila Tretikov]

First, thanks to all of those who worked in good faith, with patience and
care for each other to solve this problem. I appreciate the level of
compromise and empathy that was required from teams at WMIL and WMF. Thank
you!

Second, I want to highlight that this is a *our* issue, we are a community
and we need to think about our *one mission* to engage every human with
knowledge, before our individual goals. Let's please remember that before
we detract and distract with polarizing rhetoric (you know who you are on
this list). Bring up issues, suggest solutions. But please, in good faith
and with care for each other.

Thanks all,
Lila


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> I was referring to the fundraising targets, which have been cited as a
> cause of the dispute. WMIT/WLM have explained at length their reasons for
> needing banners in September. I am in no position to comment on whether
> their analysis is correct or not . Fundraising has not been so forthcoming
> in response to queries.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 1:45 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I guess I'm not clear on whether you're asking about the Fundraising
> targets or the WLM/WMIT targets, or both. Can you clarify?
>
> My understanding from this email chain is that there will be a
> deconfliction of banner space via better scheduling next year. I think that
> someone suggested setting up a calendar to track banner use, which might
> also be helpful.
>
> I think I'll step out of this conversation for the moment, and let the
> stakeholders take it from here.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > One of the basic tenets of health and safety, is that if you have a
> > near miss incident, it should be analysed the same way that a fatal
> > incident would be investigated. Not to apportion blame, even if it is
> > due, but so that the same situation can be avoided in the future.
> > Organisations that fail to do this are doomed to repeat their
> > mistakes, not necessarily by the same people, who may well have
> > learned, but often by other departments, where the people did not get
> the opportunity to learn by the mistake.
> > Refusal to answer reasonable and legitimate questions by stakeholders
> > often leads to accusations of conspiracy and bad faith and can end in
> > the local demagogues, of which we have an adequate supply, inciting
> > the torch and pitchfork brigade. Things may go downhill at this point.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > Sent: Friday, 04 September 2015 8:43 AM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations
> > (like the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources
> > / FDC) were working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising
> > has agreed to change their plans, I think we should give them some
> > breathing room, especially because they say that banner scheduling
> > will be coordinated next year.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided,
> > > and when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was
> > > not taken into consideration by these planners.
> > > Cheers,
> > > P
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> > > Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >
> > > I just want to respond to this point in particular:
> > >
> > > "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and when 
were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken into 
consideration by these planners.
Cheers,
P

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I just want to respond to this point in particular:

"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at 
least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team will 
pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need to 
be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the September 
target."

It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and 
forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the 
context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the 
community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans that 
come with changing to accommodate WLM:

"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes 
to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.

"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the 
ocean." --Christopher Reeve

Thanks Megan and all.

Pine


On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> wrote:

> Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
>
>> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time 
>> in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a 
>> target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for 
>> work missed in September.
>> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there 
>> will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for 
>> missing the September target.
>>
>
> The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its 
> target" and in smooth communication.
>
> We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF 
> these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it 
> has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring 
> companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why 
> should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why 
> raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to 
> facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
>
> Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide 
> donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for 
> pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
> Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for 
> setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
>
> --
> Mathias Damour
> [[User:Astirmays]]
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Pine W]

Yes, I think it is the case that Fundraising and other organizations (like
the WLM coordinators, Wikimedia Italia, and Community Resources / FDC) were
working from different playbooks. But now that Fundraising has agreed to
change their plans, I think we should give them some breathing room,
especially because they say that banner scheduling will be coordinated next
year.



Pine


On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> Who set the targets that will now not be met, how were they decided, and
> when were they set? I must assume that WLM annual project was not taken
> into consideration by these planners.
> Cheers,
> P
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
> Sent: Thursday, 03 September 2015 10:51 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I just want to respond to this point in particular:
>
> "Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in
> at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The
> team will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in
> September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will
> need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target."
>
> It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and
> forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the
> context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the
> community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans
> that come with changing to accommodate WLM:
>
> "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
> takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.
>
> "Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in
> the ocean." --Christopher Reeve
>
> Thanks Megan and all.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <
> mathias.dam...@laposte.net
> > wrote:
>
> > Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> >
> >> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time
> >> in at least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a
> >> target. The team will pick up extra work in October to make up for
> >> work missed in September.
> >> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there
> >> will need to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for
> >> missing the September target.
> >>
> >
> > The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its
> > target" and in smooth communication.
> >
> > We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF
> > these last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it
> > has a backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring
> > companies in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why
> > should we have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why
> > raising up the fundraising targets can be more important than to
> > facilitate a WLM event in just one not-so-big country ! :-P
> >
> > Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide
> > donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for
> > pawns/chess pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
> > Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for
> > setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
> >
> > --
> > Mathias Damour
> > [[User:Astirmays]]
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Pine W]

I just want to respond to this point in particular:

"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
September target."

It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and
forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the
context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the
community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans
that come with changing to accommodate WLM:

"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.

"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in
the ocean." --Christopher Reeve

Thanks Megan and all.

Pine


On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour  wrote:

> Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
>
>> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
>> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
>> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in
>> September.
>> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will
>> need
>> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
>> September target.
>>
>
> The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its
> target" and in smooth communication.
>
> We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these
> last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a
> backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in
> the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15
> time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising
> targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one
> not-so-big country ! :-P
>
> Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors,
> the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces
> that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
> Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for
> setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
>
> --
> Mathias Damour
> [[User:Astirmays]]
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Gergo Tisza]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:32 AM, Craig Franklin 
wrote:

> It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach
> casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and
> existing communication channels.  This is why the Fundraising team run
> banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk
> page messages, I would imagine.  The communications channels you're
> referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when
> you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the top
> of articles can't be beat.
>

 My experience has been quite the opposite. The easiest, maybe, but the
conversion rate is poor - WLM is for photographers, and putting banners on
Wikipedia is not a particularly good way of reaching photographers. In WLM
Hungary a few years ago we had a deal with a photo sharing site (a crappy
deal, for other reasons), they ran the WLM banner, and it had a ten times
higher conversion rate (IIRC we counted people navigating to the upload
page as conversions). Even though they had way smaller audience than
Wikipedia, half the uploads ended up coming from them.

I would recommend organizers to be creative and not rely on CentralNotice
too much - reach out to photography discussion groups, photographer
associations, photo sharing sites and any other places where people with an
interest in taking pictures might turn up.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Peter Southwood]

Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no 
relevance...
Cheers,
P

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy 
largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hello everybody.
I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the 
Fundraising banner in Italy during September.

In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard 
together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a 
very honest and direct conversation.
I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.

I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will 
not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with 
the respect it deserves.

Best regards

Andrea


On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < 
steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:

> Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
>
> So we can see what the community thinks about this.
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
>
> > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
> > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
> wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves 
> > Monuments
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that 
> > it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> situation. I
> > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments 
> > organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments 
> > in September,
> and
> > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in 
> > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> Wikimedia
> > movement?
> >
> > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this 
> > situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > New update:
> > >
> > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> resulted
> > > in:
> > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we 
> > > will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main 
> > > Page of Wikipedia
> > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> media
> > > fire
> > >
> > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > >
> > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen 
> > > again,
> what
> > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that 
> > > the
> amount
> > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of 
> > > the
> time.
> > >
> > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. 
> > > Wiki
> Loves
> > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> visitors to
> > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> small
> > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I 
> > > do
> not
> > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. 
> > > A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the 
> > > largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not 
> > > reach to the
> core
> > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, 
> > > I
> have
> > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the 
> > > core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > >
> > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the 
> > > fun

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Megan Hernandez]

Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I
have written together.

Hi everyone,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you
in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and
WMF.

There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important
campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution
campaign and annual effort.  Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and
the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet.
Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.

WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible
solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone
and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of
the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves
Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several
hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not
sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend
coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.

Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
September target.

Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past
on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as
fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get
more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser.
We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look
forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely
going forward.

It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast
and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community
Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your
effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is
how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going
forward.

Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the
problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank
you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new
contributions this year.


Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no
> relevance...
> Cheers,
> P
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
> Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Hello everybody.
> I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
>
> In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
>
> I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> welcomed with the respect it deserves.
>
> Best regards
>
> Andrea
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> >
> > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> >
> > [1]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> > r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
> > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
> > wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> > > it is time to ask the Wikim

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Pine W]

It would be interesting to contact DPReview and Flickr to ask if they'd
agree to promote this campaign.

Pine
On Aug 31, 2015 12:36 AM, "Gergo Tisza"  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:32 AM, Craig Franklin  >
> wrote:
>
> > It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach
> > casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and
> > existing communication channels.  This is why the Fundraising team run
> > banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk
> > page messages, I would imagine.  The communications channels you're
> > referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when
> > you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the
> top
> > of articles can't be beat.
> >
>
>  My experience has been quite the opposite. The easiest, maybe, but the
> conversion rate is poor - WLM is for photographers, and putting banners on
> Wikipedia is not a particularly good way of reaching photographers. In WLM
> Hungary a few years ago we had a deal with a photo sharing site (a crappy
> deal, for other reasons), they ran the WLM banner, and it had a ten times
> higher conversion rate (IIRC we counted people navigating to the upload
> page as conversions). Even though they had way smaller audience than
> Wikipedia, half the uploads ended up coming from them.
>
> I would recommend organizers to be creative and not rely on CentralNotice
> too much - reach out to photography discussion groups, photographer
> associations, photo sharing sites and any other places where people with an
> interest in taking pictures might turn up.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

WMF has a loot of money, i am not sure if the goal of this time is really 
needed.

> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:53:21 -0700
> From: wiki.p...@gmail.com
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org; andrea.za...@wikimedia.it; 
> lvi...@wikimedia.org; lgruw...@wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in 
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> 
> Thank you, Andrea, Romaine, Lisa, and Luis.
> 
> Lisa, if you're interested, I'm happy to brainstorm with you off-list about
> some alternatives to help WMF Fundraising meet its goals.
> 
> Pine
> On Aug 30, 2015 1:21 PM, "Andrea Zanni" <zanni.andre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> >
> > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > >
> > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
> > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
> > > wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
> > is
> > > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > situation. I
> > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
> > > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
> > > and
> > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > movement?
> > > >
> > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
> > > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > >
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > New update:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > resulted
> > > > > in:
> > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> > will
> > > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
> > of
> > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > > media
> > > > > fire
> > > > >
> > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
> > > what
> > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
> > > amount
> > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
> > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Sandra Rientjes Wikimedia Nederland]

Congratulations on reaching agreement - to all parties concerned.
I understand that is has not been easy, so well done!

Sandra Rientjes
Directeur/Executive Director Wikimedia Nederland

tel.(+31) (0)30 3200238
mob. (+31) (0)6  31786379

www.wikimedia.nl

*Postadres*: * Bezoekadres:*
Postbus 167Mariaplaats 3
3500 AD  Utrecht Utrecht

2015-08-31 15:17 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni :

> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
> > Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only
> > seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.
> >
>
> Yes, it was meant as "a few hours ago".
> I received the mail from Lisa's before the Romaine sent his mail about the
> RfC.
> We just did not announce it immediately (it was Sunday, and we are in
> diferent time zones, so communication is not really easy).
> Mind you that we spoke the whole week and also the weekend, this is not a
> decision that
> the WMF has taken lightly.
> I'd like to look at it as a good example of creation of consent (which
> takes a lot of time and negotiation, as we all know).
>
> Cheers
>
> Aubrey
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Megan Hernandez <mhernan...@wikimedia.org>
wrote:

> Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I
> have written together.
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you
> in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and
> WMF.
>
> There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important
> campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution
> campaign and annual effort.  Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and
> the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet.
> Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
>
> WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible
> solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone
> and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of
> the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves
> Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several
> hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not
> sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend
> coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
>



Sorry to be a pain about this, but I'm puzzled.

Andrea wrote here on this list, four hours and fifteen minutes after the
RfC started,

"I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all".

Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only
seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.

Andreas



On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andre...@gmail.com>
 wrote:

> Hello everybody.
> I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
>
> In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.





>
> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target.
>
> Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past
> on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as
> fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get
> more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser.
> We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look
> forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely
> going forward.
>
> It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast
> and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community
> Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your
> effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is
> how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going
> forward.
>
> Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the
> problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank
> you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new
> contributions this year.
>
>
> Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no
> > relevance...
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
> > Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> > Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andrea Zanni]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only
> seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.
>

Yes, it was meant as "a few hours ago".
I received the mail from Lisa's before the Romaine sent his mail about the
RfC.
We just did not announce it immediately (it was Sunday, and we are in
diferent time zones, so communication is not really easy).
Mind you that we spoke the whole week and also the weekend, this is not a
decision that
the WMF has taken lightly.
I'd like to look at it as a good example of creation of consent (which
takes a lot of time and negotiation, as we all know).

Cheers

Aubrey
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hello Megan & Andrea,

Thank you for the message and the hard work done!

Greetings,
Romaine


international organiser of Wiki Loves Monuments

2015-08-31 13:02 GMT+02:00 Megan Hernandez <mhernan...@wikimedia.org>:

> Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I
> have written together.
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you
> in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and
> WMF.
>
> There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important
> campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution
> campaign and annual effort.  Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and
> the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet.
> Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
>
> WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible
> solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone
> and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of
> the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves
> Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several
> hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not
> sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend
> coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
>
> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target.
>
> Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past
> on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as
> fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get
> more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser.
> We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look
> forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely
> going forward.
>
> It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast
> and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community
> Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your
> effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is
> how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going
> forward.
>
> Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the
> problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank
> you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new
> contributions this year.
>
>
> Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no
> > relevance...
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> > wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
> > Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> > Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> worked
> > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> >
> > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > >
> > > So we can see what the community thi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.

Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should 
apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per 
hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but not about money. 
It looks like money is fore some people moor important than free knowledge. It 
is frustrating...

Regards,
Steinsplitter

 From: rupert.thur...@gmail.com
 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
 To: janb...@wikimedia.org; patricio.lore...@gmail.com; me.ly...@gmail.com; 
 ubifri...@gmail.com; jmh...@gmail.com; dar...@alk.edu.pl; 
 denny.vrande...@kit.edu; jwa...@wikia.com; s...@wikimedia.org
 CC: wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in 
 Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
 
 dear board,
 
 allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
 wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and
 should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple
 technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM
 and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
 the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i
 could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as
 movement do not follow through the volunteer first rule than it is better
 to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
 web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
 doing some work.
 
 best,
 rupert
 
 
 On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Hello everyone.
  Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
  Wikimedia Italia.
  The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
  points.
 
  In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
  Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
  Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
  in September.
  We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to
  run in September, and it has been like that for years.
  Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for several
  days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live
  just for the last days.
  It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
  This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history,
  and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
  the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters
  of
  communication.
  We are not *happy* with the situation,
  the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
  middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
  the beginning of WLM.
  We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
  conversation and negotiation.
  The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better
  than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in
  the middle of September.
  Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
  mean that we are happy about what is happening.
  Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results
  for WLM in 2015.
 
  Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative
  impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
  This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
  pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
  sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
  institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian
  photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums),
  the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
  (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
  thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
  because we have higher stakes.
 
  This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
  photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
  This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
  Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
  fighting
  as WMIT.
 
  Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being
  a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
  relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.
 
  Italy does not have freedom

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andreas Kolbe]

Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on
fundraising ethics here:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics

Every year, readers are told that money is required to keep Wikipedia
online and ad-free another year (a hangover from ten years ago, when
bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014
fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that each year, just
enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for
everyone.

Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that given
the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and
manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask them
about the Foundation's apparent money problems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed

We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every year:

2006-2007: $3 million
2007-2008: $5 million
2008-2009: $9 million
2009-2010: $18 million
2010-2011: $25 million
2011-2012: $38 million
2012-2013: $49 million
2013-2014: $53 million
2014-2015: $75 million

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary

By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that each year,
just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available for
everyone. (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many others
host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example
would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If the
Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's volunteers
– would stand in line to replace them in keeping the sum of human
knowledge available for everyone.)

What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion
at the Wikimedia Foundation.

WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not
counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).

From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas

and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics

it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same approach
in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier
this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.

So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once
again tell readers that they must donate money to keep Wikipedia online
and ad-free, keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year, keep the
sum of all human knowledge available for everyone etc., rather than
telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this
method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.

Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there ever
been a Request for Comment to find out?

According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the
2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took
several million more last year than the publicised target.)

We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same
fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014,
and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about
it.

Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an
honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising
principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances,
and what it has done and will do with donors' money.

This is what ethical charities do.

I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a
good place to begin:

https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword

The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this
financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to
make sure they're not collected under false pretences? You can't build
anything of lasting value on a rotten foundation.

Andreas



On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com
wrote:

 dear board,

 allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
 wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and
 should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple
 technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM
 and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
 the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i
 could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as
 movement do not follow through the volunteer first rule than it is better
 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andrea Zanni]

Hello everybody.
I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.

In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
continued a very honest and direct conversation.
I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.

I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
welcomed with the respect it deserves.

Best regards

Andrea


On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki 
steinsplitter-w...@live.com wrote:

 Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!

 So we can see what the community thinks about this.

 [1]
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner

  Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
  From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
  To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
 wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
 in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
 
  Hi all,
 
  Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is
  time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
 situation. I
  have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
  teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
 and
  the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
  September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
 Wikimedia
  movement?
 
  To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
  have set up this Request for Comment:
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:
 
   Hi all,
  
   New update:
  
   The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
 resulted
   in:
   * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
   have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
   * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
   Wikipedia
   * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
   * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
   * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
 media
   fire
  
   They made clear this won't happen again.
  
   To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
 what
   we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
 amount
   of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
 time.
  
   The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
 Loves
   Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
 visitors to
   Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
 small
   link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
 not
   believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
   blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest
   project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
 core
   people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
 have
   no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
   infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
  
   And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising
   banner to a month later...
  
   I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
   worden (literally: being shipped of).
  
   At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
   ruined by it.
  
   What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
 of
   WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
 empty
   promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
   negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
  
   And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
 multiple
   people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
 really
   get it.
  
   I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
 who
   are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
 what
   Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
   largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
 in the
   world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
 friendly to
   explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
  
   And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
 multiple
   people, they do not really get it.
  
   Lessons to be learned:
   * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!

So we can see what the community thinks about this.

[1] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner

 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
 From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org; wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in 
 Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
 
 Hi all,
 
 Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is
 time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this situation. I
 have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
 teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September, and
 the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
 September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the Wikimedia
 movement?
 
 To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
 have set up this Request for Comment:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
 
 Romaine
 
 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:
 
  Hi all,
 
  New update:
 
  The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted
  in:
  * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
  have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
  * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
  Wikipedia
  * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
  * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
  * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media
  fire
 
  They made clear this won't happen again.
 
  To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what
  we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount
  of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.
 
  The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves
  Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to
  Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small
  link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not
  believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
  blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest
  project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core
  people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have
  no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
  infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
 
  And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising
  banner to a month later...
 
  I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
  worden (literally: being shipped of).
 
  At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
  ruined by it.
 
  What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of
  WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty
  promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
  negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
 
  And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
  people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really
  get it.
 
  I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who
  are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what
  Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
  largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the
  world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to
  explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
 
  And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
  people, they do not really get it.
 
  Lessons to be learned:
  * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the
  movement, they have a target to make.
  * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of
  weight and use it.
  * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a
  balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
  * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
  * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by
  those.
  * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the
  same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you
  can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
  * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
  think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the
  proposals. Always have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Lodewijk]

Please let us not mingle two very separate and delicate discussions:
1) Whether we should do the extra effort of fundraising at all (this is
what Andreas was arguing about, it seems)
2) If we decide to fundraise, how to involve the community and affiliates
in a timely, orderly and effective fashion

While we can have lots of discussions about the first question, I think
most people here will agree that there is a lot of improvement possible on
the second. And the second question is equally valid for several other
departments of course...

Communicate early, communicate often, and communicate in a two-way fashion.

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on
 fundraising ethics here:


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics

 Every year, readers are told that money is required to keep Wikipedia
 online and ad-free another year (a hangover from ten years ago, when
 bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014
 fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that each year, just
 enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for
 everyone.

 Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that given
 the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and
 manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask them
 about the Foundation's apparent money problems:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed

 We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every
 year:

 2006-2007: $3 million
 2007-2008: $5 million
 2008-2009: $9 million
 2009-2010: $18 million
 2010-2011: $25 million
 2011-2012: $38 million
 2012-2013: $49 million
 2013-2014: $53 million
 2014-2015: $75 million

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary

 By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that each year,
 just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available for
 everyone. (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many others
 host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example
 would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If the
 Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's volunteers
 – would stand in line to replace them in keeping the sum of human
 knowledge available for everyone.)

 What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion
 at the Wikimedia Foundation.

 WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not
 counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).

 From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas

 and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics

 it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same approach
 in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier
 this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.

 So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once
 again tell readers that they must donate money to keep Wikipedia online
 and ad-free, keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year, keep the
 sum of all human knowledge available for everyone etc., rather than
 telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this
 method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.

 Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there ever
 been a Request for Comment to find out?

 According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the
 2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took
 several million more last year than the publicised target.)

 We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same
 fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014,
 and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about
 it.

 Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an
 honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising
 principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances,
 and what it has done and will do with donors' money.

 This is what ethical charities do.

 I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a
 good place to begin:


 https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword

 The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this
 financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to
 make sure they're not collected under false 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andreas Kolbe]

I think both of these issues are about community involvement, Lodewijk, or
rather the lack of it. The community is simply being stonewalled, on both
issues.

And to be clear, I am absolutely in favour of fundraising. I just want it
done transparently, so donors understand clearly that their donations are
NOT about keeping Wikipedia from blinking out of existence, but about
something different altogether.

I want the Foundation to tell donors what they are doing, in concrete
terms, and to tell it compellingly, so that people are *inspired* to
donate, rather than guilt-tripped into it or made to donate out of fear
Wikipedia might go off-line, or have to host advertisements to survive.

Having said that, I have no problem with it if someone wants to start a new
thread on the latter issue.

Andreas



On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org
wrote:

 Please let us not mingle two very separate and delicate discussions:
 1) Whether we should do the extra effort of fundraising at all (this is
 what Andreas was arguing about, it seems)
 2) If we decide to fundraise, how to involve the community and affiliates
 in a timely, orderly and effective fashion

 While we can have lots of discussions about the first question, I think
 most people here will agree that there is a lot of improvement possible on
 the second. And the second question is equally valid for several other
 departments of course...

 Communicate early, communicate often, and communicate in a two-way fashion.

 Lodewijk

 On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on
  fundraising ethics here:
 
 
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics
 
  Every year, readers are told that money is required to keep Wikipedia
  online and ad-free another year (a hangover from ten years ago, when
  bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014
  fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that each year, just
  enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for
  everyone.
 
  Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that
 given
  the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and
  manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask
 them
  about the Foundation's apparent money problems:
 
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed
 
  We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every
  year:
 
  2006-2007: $3 million
  2007-2008: $5 million
  2008-2009: $9 million
  2009-2010: $18 million
  2010-2011: $25 million
  2011-2012: $38 million
  2012-2013: $49 million
  2013-2014: $53 million
  2014-2015: $75 million
 
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary
 
  By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that each year,
  just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available
 for
  everyone. (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many
 others
  host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example
  would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If
 the
  Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's
 volunteers
  – would stand in line to replace them in keeping the sum of human
  knowledge available for everyone.)
 
  What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion
  at the Wikimedia Foundation.
 
  WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not
  counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).
 
  From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:
 
  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
 
  and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:
 
 
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics
 
  it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same
 approach
  in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier
  this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.
 
  So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once
  again tell readers that they must donate money to keep Wikipedia online
  and ad-free, keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year, keep the
  sum of all human knowledge available for everyone etc., rather than
  telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this
  method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.
 
  Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there
 ever
  been a Request for Comment to find out?
 
  According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the
  2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

 stuff, but
 not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important
 than free knowledge. It is frustrating...

 Regards,
 Steinsplitter

  From: rupert.thur...@gmail.com
  Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
  To: janb...@wikimedia.org; patricio.lore...@gmail.com;
 me.ly...@gmail.com; ubifri...@gmail.com; jmh...@gmail.com;
 dar...@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrande...@kit.edu; jwa...@wikia.com;
 s...@wikimedia.org
  CC: wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org;
 wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
 in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
 
  dear board,
 
  allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
  wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
 and
  should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
 simple
  technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
 WLM
  and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
  the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
 ones i
  could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
 as
  movement do not follow through the volunteer first rule than it is
 better
  to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
  web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
  doing some work.
 
  best,
  rupert
 
 
  On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com
 
  wrote:
 
   Hello everyone.
   Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
   Wikimedia Italia.
   The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
   points.
  
   In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
   Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
 the
   Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
 Italy
   in September.
   We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
 well-known to
   run in September, and it has been like that for years.
   Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for
 several
   days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
 live
   just for the last days.
   It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
   This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
 history,
   and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written
 so in
   the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
 matters
   of
   communication.
   We are not *happy* with the situation,
   the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in
 the
   middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
 before
   the beginning of WLM.
   We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
   conversation and negotiation.
   The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
 better
   than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
 days in
   the middle of September.
   Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does
 not
   mean that we are happy about what is happening.
   Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
 results
   for WLM in 2015.
  
   Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
 negative
   impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
 Italia.
   This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
 uploaded
   pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
   sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
   institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
 Italian
   photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
 Museums),
   the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
 Italiano
   (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
   thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
   because we have higher stakes.
  
   This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
   photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
   This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
   Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
   fighting
   as WMIT.
  
   Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
 being
   a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
   relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
 monuments.
  
   Italy does not have freedom of panorama.
   Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
 monuments,
   even if copyright has expired.
   We need to ask

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hi all,

New update:

The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted
in:
* Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
* WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
Wikipedia
* WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
* WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
* WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media
fire

They made clear this won't happen again.

To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.

The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.

And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising
banner to a month later...

I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden
(literally: being shipped of).

At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined
by it.

What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.

And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really
get it.

I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.

And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
people, they do not really get it.

Lessons to be learned:
* Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the
movement, they have a target to make.
* Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of
weight and use it.
* Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
* Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
* Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by
those.
* Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the same
time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can,
some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
* Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.

But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the
community publicly decide what should be chosen.

Romaine




2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki steinsplitter-w...@live.com:

 I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.

 Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first
 should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero
 dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but
 not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important
 than free knowledge. It is frustrating...

 Regards,
 Steinsplitter

  From: rupert.thur...@gmail.com
  Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
  To: janb...@wikimedia.org; patricio.lore...@gmail.com;
 me.ly...@gmail.com; ubifri...@gmail.com; jmh...@gmail.com;
 dar...@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrande...@kit.edu; jwa...@wikia.com;
 s...@wikimedia.org
  CC: wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org;
 wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
 in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
 
  dear board,
 
  allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
  wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
 and
  should not behave

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[MF-Warburg]

Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?

2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

 The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
 while I ma in change of the banners.

 How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?

 Romaine

 2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:

  Hello everybody.
  I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
 run
  the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
 
  In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
 worked
  hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
  continued a very honest and direct conversation.
  I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
 
  I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
  will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
  welcomed with the respect it deserves.
 
  Best regards
 
  Andrea
 
 
  On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki 
  steinsplitter-w...@live.com wrote:
 
   Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
  
   So we can see what the community thinks about this.
  
   [1]
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
  
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
   wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
 Monuments
   in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
   
Hi all,
   
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
  is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
   situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
 organising
teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
 September,
   and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
   Wikimedia
movement?
   
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
 situation, I
have set up this Request for Comment:
   
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
   
Romaine
   
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:
   
 Hi all,

 New update:

 The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
   resulted
 in:
 * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
  will
 have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
 * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
 Page
  of
 Wikipedia
 * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
 * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
 * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
   media
 fire

 They made clear this won't happen again.

 To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
 again,
   what
 we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
   amount
 of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
   time.

 The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
 Wiki
   Loves
 Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
   visitors to
 Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
   small
 link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I
 do
   not
 believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work.
 A
 blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
  largest
 project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
  the
   core
 people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire,
 I
   have
 no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
 core
 infrastructure is not under control by WMF.

 And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
  fundraising
 banner to a month later...

 I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
 afgescheept
 worden (literally: being shipped of).

 At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
 large
 ruined by it.

 What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
  team
   of
 WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
   empty
 promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
 negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.

 And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
   multiple
 people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
   really
 get it.

 I had the occasion in the past weeks

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hello everybody.
 I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
 the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.

 In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
 hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
 continued a very honest and direct conversation.
 I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.



The following was posted a little over four hours after the RfC went live
(and 12 minutes before your post here):

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_bannerdiff=13392410oldid=13392365

Thanks to Romaine for greasing the wheels of communication!







 I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
 will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
 welcomed with the respect it deserves.

 Best regards

 Andrea


(Please ignore the previous empty message of mine, which was sent in error.
- A.)
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Yes, sorry, they did *not* communicate it with me.

They finally came to a great decision, it would have been perfect if they
had just made a public announcement here.

Romaine



2015-08-31 0:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg mfwarb...@googlemail.com:

 Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?

 2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

  The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
  while I ma in change of the banners.
 
  How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:
 
   Hello everybody.
   I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
  run
   the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
  
   In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
  worked
   hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
   continued a very honest and direct conversation.
   I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
  
   I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
   will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
   welcomed with the respect it deserves.
  
   Best regards
  
   Andrea
  
  
   On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki 
   steinsplitter-w...@live.com wrote:
  
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
   
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
   
[1]
   
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
   
 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
 From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
  Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

 Hi all,

 Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
 it
   is
 time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
 have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
  organising
 teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
  September,
and
 the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
 September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
 movement?

 To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
  situation, I
 have set up this Request for Comment:

   
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner

 Romaine

 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

  Hi all,
 
  New update:
 
  The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
  in:
  * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So
 we
   will
  have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
  * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
  Page
   of
  Wikipedia
  * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
  * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
  * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and
 social
media
  fire
 
  They made clear this won't happen again.
 
  To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
  again,
what
  we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
 the
amount
  of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
 the
time.
 
  The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
  Wiki
Loves
  Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
  Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
 a
small
  link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
 I
  do
not
  believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
 work.
  A
  blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
   largest
  project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
 to
   the
core
  people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
 fire,
  I
have
  no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
  core
  infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
 
  And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
   fundraising
  banner to a month later...
 
  I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
  afgescheept
  worden (literally: being shipped of).
 
  At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
  large
  ruined by it.
 
  What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
   team
of
  WMF has played. I certainly do not consider

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 11:26 PM, MF-Warburg mfwarb...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?

 2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

  The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
  while I ma in change of the banners.
 
  How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:
 
   Hello everybody.
   I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
  run
   the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
  
   In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
  worked
   hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
   continued a very honest and direct conversation.
   I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
  
   I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
   will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
   welcomed with the respect it deserves.
  
   Best regards
  
   Andrea
  
  
   On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki 
   steinsplitter-w...@live.com wrote:
  
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
   
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
   
[1]
   
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
   
 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
 From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
  Monuments
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

 Hi all,

 Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
 it
   is
 time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
 have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
  organising
 teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
  September,
and
 the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
 September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
 movement?

 To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
  situation, I
 have set up this Request for Comment:

   
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner

 Romaine

 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

  Hi all,
 
  New update:
 
  The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
  in:
  * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So
 we
   will
  have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
  * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
  Page
   of
  Wikipedia
  * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
  * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
  * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and
 social
media
  fire
 
  They made clear this won't happen again.
 
  To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
  again,
what
  we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
 the
amount
  of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
 the
time.
 
  The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
  Wiki
Loves
  Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
  Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
 a
small
  link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
 I
  do
not
  believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
 work.
  A
  blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
   largest
  project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
 to
   the
core
  people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
 fire,
  I
have
  no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
  core
  infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
 
  And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
   fundraising
  banner to a month later...
 
  I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
  afgescheept
  worden (literally: being shipped of).
 
  At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
  large
  ruined by it.
 
  What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
   team
of
  WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too
 many
empty
  promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
  negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
while I ma in change of the banners.

How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?

Romaine

2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:

 Hello everybody.
 I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
 the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.

 In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
 hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
 continued a very honest and direct conversation.
 I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.

 I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
 will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
 welcomed with the respect it deserves.

 Best regards

 Andrea


 On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki 
 steinsplitter-w...@live.com wrote:

  Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
 
  So we can see what the community thinks about this.
 
  [1]
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
 
   Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
   From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
   To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
  wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
   Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
  in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
  
   Hi all,
  
   Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
 is
   time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
  situation. I
   have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
   teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
  and
   the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
   September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
  Wikimedia
   movement?
  
   To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
   have set up this Request for Comment:
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
  
   Romaine
  
   2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:
  
Hi all,
   
New update:
   
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
  resulted
in:
* Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
 will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
* WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
 of
Wikipedia
* WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
* WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
* WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
  media
fire
   
They made clear this won't happen again.
   
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
  what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
  amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
  time.
   
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
  Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
  visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
  small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
  not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
 largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
 the
  core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
  have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
   
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
 fundraising
banner to a month later...
   
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
worden (literally: being shipped of).
   
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
ruined by it.
   
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
 team
  of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
  empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
   
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
  multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
  really
get it.
   
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
 WMF
  who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
  what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Pine W]

Thank you, Andrea, Romaine, Lisa, and Luis.

Lisa, if you're interested, I'm happy to brainstorm with you off-list about
some alternatives to help WMF Fundraising meet its goals.

Pine
On Aug 30, 2015 1:21 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello everybody.
 I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
 the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.

 In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
 hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
 continued a very honest and direct conversation.
 I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.

 I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
 will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
 welcomed with the respect it deserves.

 Best regards

 Andrea


 On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki 
 steinsplitter-w...@live.com wrote:

  Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
 
  So we can see what the community thinks about this.
 
  [1]
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
 
   Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
   From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
   To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
  wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
   Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
  in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
  
   Hi all,
  
   Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
 is
   time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
  situation. I
   have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
   teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
  and
   the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
   September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
  Wikimedia
   movement?
  
   To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
   have set up this Request for Comment:
  
 
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
  
   Romaine
  
   2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:
  
Hi all,
   
New update:
   
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
  resulted
in:
* Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
 will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
* WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
 of
Wikipedia
* WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
* WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
* WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
  media
fire
   
They made clear this won't happen again.
   
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
  what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
  amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
  time.
   
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
  Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
  visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
  small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
  not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
 largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
 the
  core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
  have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
   
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
 fundraising
banner to a month later...
   
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
worden (literally: being shipped of).
   
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
ruined by it.
   
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
 team
  of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
  empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
   
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
  multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
  really
get it.
   
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
 WMF
  who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
  what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[rupert THURNER]

dear board,

allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as
movement do not follow through the volunteer first rule than it is better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
doing some work.

best,
rupert


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hello everyone.
 Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
 Wikimedia Italia.
 The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
 points.

 In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
 Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
 Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
 in September.
 We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to
 run in September, and it has been like that for years.
 Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for several
 days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live
 just for the last days.
 It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
 This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history,
 and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
 the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters
 of
 communication.
 We are not *happy* with the situation,
 the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
 middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
 the beginning of WLM.
 We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
 conversation and negotiation.
 The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better
 than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in
 the middle of September.
 Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
 mean that we are happy about what is happening.
 Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results
 for WLM in 2015.

 Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative
 impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
 This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
 pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
 sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
 institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian
 photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums),
 the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
 (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
 thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
 because we have higher stakes.

 This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
 photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
 This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
 Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
 fighting
 as WMIT.

 Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being
 a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
 relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.

 Italy does not have freedom of panorama.
 Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments,
 even if copyright has expired.
 We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every.
 Monument.
 We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
 official list of monuments in Italy.

 There is *extensive* documentation here:

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects

 This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
 http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason
 why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014
 alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of
 photos.

 The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
 It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
 Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves
 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andrea Zanni]

Hello everyone.
Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
Wikimedia Italia.
The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
points.

In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
in September.
We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years.
Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live
just for the last days.
It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters of
communication.
We are not *happy* with the situation,
the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
the beginning of WLM.
We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
conversation and negotiation.
The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in
the middle of September.
Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
mean that we are happy about what is happening.
Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results
for WLM in 2015.

Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
because we have higher stakes.

This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting
as WMIT.

Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.

Italy does not have freedom of panorama.
Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments,
even if copyright has expired.
We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every.
Monument.
We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
official list of monuments in Italy.

There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects

This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of
photos.

The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
activities it is meant to support.
Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures
to the Wikimedia projects.
We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
We are all part of the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Laurentius]

Il giorno lun, 24/08/2015 alle 13.08 +0200, Jane Darnell ha scritto:
 What I meant to say is that though the impact
 of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for
 those
 countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian
 situation
 is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of casual
 uploaders/experienced uploaders is the same as for other countries,
 ergo,
 the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

In any country you have a list of monuments and you can submit a picture
of one of those monuments. In Italy it's exactly the same.
The problem lies in building the list of monuments! But for the users,
it is not more difficult than in any other country.

What we do is asking to the organizations that have the rights on the
monuments to provide an authorization for uploading the pictures on
Commons during the contest. The participants to the contest do not have
any specific work to do related to this.

Laurentius



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hi Jane,
Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does
a great job in getting all the permissions.

You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.

Romaine

2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:

 Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
 of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
 type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand
 the oddities of the Italian monuments situation  Commons. Italy was late
 to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
 municipalities that take part now.

 On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not
 a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
 under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
 dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
 case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
 I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
 between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
 Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.

 You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
 but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen
 each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
 followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned
 from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
 underestimate.

 And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
 somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
 planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
 are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
 This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
 the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
 picked the worst possible country.

 You reduce this problem to just a number of emotive emails, with what
 you make clear you missed the essence of this case.

 Romaine

 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com:

 Hi Romaine,

  And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
 WLM
  team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
 Wikimedia
  Foundation.

 Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
 understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
 know
 from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
 staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
 will be less than you expect in this case).

 But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
 what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
 and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
 has
 the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
 be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
 they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

 Regards,

 Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Jane Darnell]

I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of casual
uploaders/experienced uploaders is the same as for other countries, ergo,
the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi Jane,
 Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
 copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
 Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
 local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
 Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
 comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does
 a great job in getting all the permissions.

 You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
 impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.

 Romaine

 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:

 Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
 of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
 type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand
 the oddities of the Italian monuments situation  Commons. Italy was late
 to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
 municipalities that take part now.

 On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
 not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
 crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to
 the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
 case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
 I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
 between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
 Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.

 You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
 but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen
 each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
 followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned
 from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
 underestimate.

 And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
 somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
 planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
 are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
 This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
 the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
 picked the worst possible country.

 You reduce this problem to just a number of emotive emails, with what
 you make clear you missed the essence of this case.

 Romaine

 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com:

 Hi Romaine,

  And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
 WLM
  team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
 Wikimedia
  Foundation.

 Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
 understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
 know
 from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
 staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
 WLM
 will be less than you expect in this case).

 But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
 with
 what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
 and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
 has
 the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
 always
 be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
 they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

 Regards,

 Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Chris Keating]

Hi Romaine,

 And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
 team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
 Foundation.

Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know
from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
will be less than you expect in this case).

But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

Regards,

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a
compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between
WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect
and other issues. I personally hope not.

You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but
I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each
time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed
the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the
past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.

And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
picked the worst possible country.

You reduce this problem to just a number of emotive emails, with what you
make clear you missed the essence of this case.

Romaine

2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com:

 Hi Romaine,

  And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
  team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
  Foundation.

 Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
 understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know
 from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
 staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
 will be less than you expect in this case).

 But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
 what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
 and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
 the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
 be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
 they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

 Regards,

 Chris
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Richard Symonds]

I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still
attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of
casual
uploaders/experienced uploaders but we haven't seen figures either way
there.

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
 of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
 countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
 is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of casual
 uploaders/experienced uploaders is the same as for other countries, ergo,
 the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

 On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi Jane,
  Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
  copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
  Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
  local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
  Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
  comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
 does
  a great job in getting all the permissions.
 
  You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
  impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
 
  Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
  of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
  type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
 understand
  the oddities of the Italian monuments situation  Commons. Italy was
 late
  to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
 specific
  municipalities that take part now.
 
  On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
  not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
  crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
 to
  the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
 this
  case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
  I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
  between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
  Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
 
  You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
  but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
 seen
  each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
  followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
 learned
  from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
  underestimate.
 
  And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
  somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
  planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
 countries
  are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
 tales.
  This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
 all
  the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
 have
  picked the worst possible country.
 
  You reduce this problem to just a number of emotive emails, with what
  you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com:
 
  Hi Romaine,
 
   And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
  WLM
   team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
  Wikimedia
   Foundation.
 
  Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
  understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
  know
  from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
 WMF
  staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
  WLM
  will be less than you expect in this case).
 
  But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
  with
  what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
 all
  and there were some other method of allocating banner space, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hi Jane,

The situation is more complicated for the organisers, yes.
But for participants in the contest it is not complicated. The Italian WLM
team has organised it in such way it is easy to participate.

Greetings,
Romaine

2015-08-24 13:08 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:

 I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
 of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
 countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
 is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of casual
 uploaders/experienced uploaders is the same as for other countries, ergo,
 the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

 On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi Jane,
  Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
  copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
  Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
  local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
  Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
  comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
 does
  a great job in getting all the permissions.
 
  You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
  impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
 
  Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
  of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
  type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
 understand
  the oddities of the Italian monuments situation  Commons. Italy was
 late
  to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
 specific
  municipalities that take part now.
 
  On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
  not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
  crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
 to
  the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
 this
  case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
  I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
  between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
  Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
 
  You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
  but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
 seen
  each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
  followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
 learned
  from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
  underestimate.
 
  And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
  somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
  planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
 countries
  are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
 tales.
  This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
 all
  the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
 have
  picked the worst possible country.
 
  You reduce this problem to just a number of emotive emails, with what
  you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com:
 
  Hi Romaine,
 
   And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
  WLM
   team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
  Wikimedia
   Foundation.
 
  Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
  understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
  know
  from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
 WMF
  staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
  WLM
  will be less than you expect in this case).
 
  But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
  with
  what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
 all
  and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
  has
  the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
  always
  be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
 what
  they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
 
  Regards,
 
  Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Jane Darnell]

Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if
we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to
the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page
rather than some other way.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds 
richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:

 I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still
 attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion
 of casual
 uploaders/experienced uploaders but we haven't seen figures either way
 there.

 Richard Symonds
 Wikimedia UK
 0207 065 0992

 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
 Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
 Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
 United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
 movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
 operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

 *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
 over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

 On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the
 impact
 of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
 countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian
 situation
 is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of casual
 uploaders/experienced uploaders is the same as for other countries, ergo,
 the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

 On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi Jane,
  Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama.
 The
  copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
  Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
  local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
  Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
  comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
 does
  a great job in getting all the permissions.
 
  You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
  impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com:
 
  Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow
 freedom
  of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
  type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
 understand
  the oddities of the Italian monuments situation  Commons. Italy was
 late
  to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
 specific
  municipalities that take part now.
 
  On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 
  wrote:
 
  Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
  not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
  crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is,
 according to
  the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something.
 In this
  case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
  I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
  between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
  Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
 
  You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
  but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
 seen
  each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
  followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
 learned
  from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
  underestimate.
 
  And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
  somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
  planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
 countries
  are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
 tales.
  This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
 all
  the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
 have
  picked the worst possible country.
 
  You reduce this problem to just a number of emotive emails, with
 what
  you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com
 :
 
  Hi Romaine,
 
   And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The
 Italian
  WLM
   team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
  Wikimedia
   Foundation.
 
  Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
  understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact.
 I
  know
  from plenty of past experience of being a 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andy Mabbett]

On 21 August 2015 at 21:42, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 The process was stopped because it was
 costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
 very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
 that results in much higher costs.

I doubt very much that the costs of fund-raising locally in the UK
outweighed the massive income from gift aid (refund of tax paid by
donors, on their donation). That income is, of course, now lost.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

 (...) The Wikimedia Foundation is too much
 de-attached from the community.

This is so true, Romaine! Especially the new staffer who never edited wikipedia 
before becoming staffer.

 Of course there is also wmf staff closely involved in the community and doing 
a great job. It is always a pleasure to do stuff together with them! Really.

 Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:59:46 +0200
 From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in 
 Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
 
 I think you describe the essence of the problem: there is a big gap between
 the community and the Wikimedia Foundation.
 
 I have a long list of problems from the past years that all seem to
 originate in this basic problem. The Wikimedia Foundation is too much
 de-attached from the community.
 
 At the same time I notice that since last year, Lila is trying to improve
 this situation, but there is a very very long way to go to move the
 Wikimedia Foundation away from the dark side of the moon.
 (To prevent generalisation: I know also a lot of staff in WMF that are
 closely involved in the community and doing a great job in being attached
 with the community.)
 
 Romaine
 
 
 2015-08-21 22:22 GMT+02:00 Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net:
 
  From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
  organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
  campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
  WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have
  arisen / could have been resolved locally.
 
  Thanks,
  Mike
 
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hello Luis,

Organising Wiki Loves Monuments is a hard job. For the world wide Wikimedia
community Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest and important project.
Everywhere around the world cultural heritage can be found, and the
community organises Wiki Loves Monuments to have content created in words
and images to expand Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons in the field of
cultural heritage. This project is important to us.

As Wiki Loves Monuments we have tried to collaborate with various people
inside WMF concerning the CentralNotice banners

I think indeed we have patience as community, but seeing the troubles we
experience for three years on a row, each time getting worse and worse,
maybe we should loose our patience to get something changed. This is not
the first time we complained about this. And now having this for the 3rd
year on a row, enough is enough. This can't continue any longer.

The community understands fundraising is needed, and we can imagine that
fundraising should be done in September as well. But it is indigestible
that the fundraising team doesn't take into account that the community has
an important project going on in September.

This is not the first time Wiki Loves Monuments is organised, it is
organised for years. Everyone in the Foundation already could have learned
that September is  a month they need to pay special attention to if it
concerns fundraising banners.

And Fundraising is possible in multiple European countries as Wiki Loves
Monuments isn't organised there this year. It is the fundraising team who
has chosen the worst possible country in Europe. This is called bad
planning.

And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
Foundation.

And again this is not a compromise, besides no banner at all, this outcome
is the worst possible outcome for Wiki Loves Monuments. All purely because
the fundraising team is bad in planning. If this is called the best we
could, I think it is time to fire some people and start with a team with
more capabilities.
We can continue
Sorry, it is not acceptable. Completely unacceptable.

but the team needs to start working now.
Then WMF seeks the confrontation with the community.

WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments
WMF is saying this a lot, but when it actually matters it is not shown in
the deeds and actions. Just a few examples we have seen:
* Mobile support revoked by WMF.
* Software updates that cause to completely rebuild the infrastructure, in
the last days before the start of the contest.
* Various WMF banners that block(ed) Wiki Loves banners.
* A WLM evaluation by WMF that rips out the essence of the project, saying
that WLM is doing worse, but forgets to mention that a large part is caused
by WMF itself.

What deeds show that WMF really cares?
Have I seen any?

And the responses we get a lot from WMF are fairy tales.
And no, it doesn't clarify the situation.


I think it is for WMF time to answer these questions:

1. When does WMF start with actually caring for community projects, like
Wiki Loves Monuments and others, to be shown in deeds and actions?

2. Is WMF going to cancel the fundraising banner in September for Italy
when it is too late, or when they are still in time?

3. Why is the question what the loss is worth it for the movement still
unanswered?

4. Why is it worth to damage the largest project of the year while the
fundraising could be done a month later as well?



Romaine


2015-08-22 20:02 GMT+02:00 Luis Villa lvi...@wikimedia.org:

 Hi, Romaine-

 [tl;dr: Fundraising has a hard job. The Board has asked them to raise a
 lot of money, and fall in Europe is very important to doing that
 efficiently. We have tried to reach a compromise, but no compromise is
 perfect. In the long run, we would like to work together to try to figure
 out a calendar and other alternatives.]

 Thank you for reaching out, and for working patiently with us to find a
 solution.

 Let me explain how I see both the short term and the long term.

 In the short term, Fundraising has been asked to raise $68 million this
 year to support the movement (including funding some parts of WLM!). This
 is going to be extremely difficult, given the decline in pageviews (
 details
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16diff=12692813oldid=12650742).
 They also have to coordinate campaigns around the world, with a staff that
 is small by non-profit fundraising standards.

 For them to meet their goals, they must be effective in the fall in
 Europe. This means they must fundraise somewhere in Europe during
 September. Because of this, disrupting some part of WLM is hard to avoid.
 :/ This is why we started working with you, Andrea, and others to work out
 a compromise last month.

 My understanding is that Fundraising and the Italian chapter have already
 adjusted their campaign dates as part of the compromise. 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Luis Villa]

Hi, Romaine-

[tl;dr: Fundraising has a hard job. The Board has asked them to raise a lot
of money, and fall in Europe is very important to doing that efficiently.
We have tried to reach a compromise, but no compromise is perfect. In the
long run, we would like to work together to try to figure out a calendar
and other alternatives.]

Thank you for reaching out, and for working patiently with us to find a
solution.

Let me explain how I see both the short term and the long term.

In the short term, Fundraising has been asked to raise $68 million this
year to support the movement (including funding some parts of WLM!). This
is going to be extremely difficult, given the decline in pageviews (details
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16diff=12692813oldid=12650742).
They also have to coordinate campaigns around the world, with a staff that
is small by non-profit fundraising standards.

For them to meet their goals, they must be effective in the fall in Europe.
This means they must fundraise somewhere in Europe during September.
Because of this, disrupting some part of WLM is hard to avoid. :/ This is
why we started working with you, Andrea, and others to work out a
compromise last month.

My understanding is that Fundraising and the Italian chapter have already
adjusted their campaign dates as part of the compromise. Fundraising also
cooperated with the French chapter to move those dates. No compromise is
perfect, but I think we did the best we could under the circumstances. We
can continue to make small changes (for example, Lisa offered earlier in
this thread to add WLM suggestions in fundraising emails) but the team
needs to start working now.

In the long term, WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments and the many other
projects that use Central Notice. Clearly, we need a better process to help
coordinate Central Notice, including WMF projects like fundraising. We
would like to work on setting up such a process, but that will require more
work on our side. So Lisa and I are talking about how we can trim back on
other work to make this happen.

We would also love to work with WLM and other programs to figure out better
ways to communicate with potential contributors. For example, if we asked
potential contributors to give their email (as Italia already does
http://wikilovesmonuments.wikimedia.it/), we could almost certainly make
the process more effective and reduce banners at the same time. Again,
though, helping with something like this will require cutting back
elsewhere in Fundraising/Community, and so that will take some time to
figure out.

Hope this helps clarify the situation. Lisa and I are happy to answer more
questions if we can.


Thanks-

Luis


On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi all,

 Sad news.
 The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
 situation as it looks now.

 *Background*
 Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
 many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
 banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
 attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
 with photos of the local cultural heritage.

 Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
 no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
 participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
 participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
 above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.



 *What is the situation?*
 * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
 the month September.
 * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
 contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.

 As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
 about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.

 Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
 appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
 and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
 September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
 important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
 the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
 uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.

 This is what I would call a devastating effect.

 And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
 * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
 years.
 * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
 * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
 but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.

 This same 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Michael Peel]

From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national 
organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising campaigns 
rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both WLM and the 
national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have arisen / could 
have been resolved locally.

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Lisa Gruwell]

I know the Italian Chapter, the online fundraising team, and community
liaisons have been talking about solutions for a while and I won’t get in
the way of that, but I thought I would offer a few ideas on some of the
online organizing tactics being discussed here.  This probably falls in the
category of unsolicited advice and it might be bad advice at that.  To
quote a good song, “It’s bad advice only if you use it.”

On the topic of limiting impressions,  I agree that the fundraising use
case is different than WLM organizing.  I am still fairly sure that there
has to something more effective than running a full-time banner for a
month.  It would take testing a bunch of ideas to figure that out and
Central Notice has much more capacity now to test different things.  We are
happy to help brainstorm ideas for that if anyone wanted.

I understand that WLM’s has a common organizing challenge in that it’s a
couple step process for participation.  Would it make sense to prioritize a
“Sign up” or “Enter the Contest” feature on the landing pages that asks
people to submit their email addresses, so that you can followup with
them?  I mention this because online fundraising has experimented with a
“Remind me later” feature on mobile where we have people enter their email
addresses, so that we can send them a followup fundraising email. It has
had some good results. It seems like having email addresses for followup
would help keep people engaged in WLM and you could also reach out to them
next year.

Lastly, we could add an appeal to participate in WLM to the thank you email
we send to donors in Italy.  We would be happy to do it, if it’s useful.

Best regards,

Lisa

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
wrote:

 This is not the first time this conflict appears, but this is the worst
 outcome ever so far. In all the years I have been asking for an explanation
 why it is not possible to move it, or why it is urgently to do it in
 September, nothing reasonable has been provided for that. Nothing in all
 those years.

 If a fundraising banner has a big negative influence on a project, I think
 it is time to have the community involved and have them speak out what they
 think about the situation. As FR only speaks to a few people, they seem to
 have the impression that they can freely decide without taking the
 community in account. I think it will be time to have the community speak
 out what they think in a request for comment/voting or something on Meta.
 Anyone an idea or the experience how to set such up?

 Romaine

 2015-08-20 13:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg mfwarb...@googlemail.com:

  Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF
 so
  urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
  Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb Risker risker...@gmail.com:
 
   I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing
  here,
   but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some
 other
   options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
   perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
   Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not
 quite
   the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
   least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
  WLM
   banners in rotation.)
  
   Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here;
 both
   of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
   them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during
 that
   specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
  list.
   I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
   come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
  
   Risker/Anne
  
   On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  
Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
   
The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole
 group
  of
Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for
  showing
content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
   this
field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for
 the
majority of the people.
   
Romaine
   
2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:
   
 I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and
 it's
very
 easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
   top.
 It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the
 contest
   (in
 Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's
  English).

 And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
   knows
 homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Laurentius]

Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 01.26 -0400, Risker ha scritto:
  [...] perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload
 images for Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.

This might be a way to mitigate the problem, although I'm not sure
whether it's technically feasible.

Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 07.41 +0200, Ricordisamoa ha scritto:
 Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the 
 ones on Commons?

This could be another one.

Il giorno mar, 18/08/2015 alle 23.39 +0200, Ilario Valdelli ha scritto:
 Yes it can be possible without touching the fundraising's banner.
 
 The banner can be put in the Mediawiki:sitenotice in each project and 
 can cohabitate with the fundraising's banner.
 
 The real problem is that a small banner can have only a limited
 effect.

And this one too (although I'm not a fan of this).

None of these will solve the problem, but I think they are worth of
consideration for it.wikipedia's community.

Lorenzo



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Risker]

Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and
problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not
persuaded; having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by
any stretch of the imagination.  The process was stopped because it was
costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
that results in much higher costs.

Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming
increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts
between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives;
these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most
common group affected.  I think we really need to get better at scheduling
events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major
activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site
advertising/banners/messaging for their success.  The further in advance a
potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective
solutions to those conflicts can be put into place.  It would be really
helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in
advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful
in planning major local activities.

I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look
for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.

Risker/Anne





On 21 August 2015 at 16:22, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote:

 From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
 organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
 campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
 WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have
 arisen / could have been resolved locally.

 Thanks,
 Mike


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andrew Gray]

On 20 August 2015 at 06:26, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:
 I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
 but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
 options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
 perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
 Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
 the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
 least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
 banners in rotation.)

I can see this working, to a degree. I think it would be quite
valuable serving the role of wayfinding for a returning contributor
looking for it - but I'm not sure it could effectively replace the
banner as a first port of call  way to attract attention.

Still, nothing ventured!

Some projects have restyled the globe logo for special occasions -
that might be another approach to consider.

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

I think you describe the essence of the problem: there is a big gap between
the community and the Wikimedia Foundation.

I have a long list of problems from the past years that all seem to
originate in this basic problem. The Wikimedia Foundation is too much
de-attached from the community.

At the same time I notice that since last year, Lila is trying to improve
this situation, but there is a very very long way to go to move the
Wikimedia Foundation away from the dark side of the moon.
(To prevent generalisation: I know also a lot of staff in WMF that are
closely involved in the community and doing a great job in being attached
with the community.)

Romaine


2015-08-21 22:22 GMT+02:00 Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net:

 From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
 organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
 campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
 WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have
 arisen / could have been resolved locally.

 Thanks,
 Mike


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

If the fundraising banner was planned in November to be shown in Italy, the
problem would have been the same. Only the time could have a positive
impact.

Also then something has been missed: Wiki Loves Monuments is a sticky
project in September, already for years, as it is attached to a world wide
event of heritage days. The fundraising team should have known that this
project is organised and that organising banners for fundraising in
September is a big risk. Still this issue keeps coming up. I find it
unbelievable that after all these years of organising, WMF FR is still not
capable of acting with understanding. I call such bad planning, and naming
it such is an understatement.

Romaine

2015-08-21 22:42 GMT+02:00 Risker risker...@gmail.com:

 Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and
 problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not
 persuaded; having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by
 any stretch of the imagination.  The process was stopped because it was
 costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
 very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
 that results in much higher costs.

 Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming
 increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts
 between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives;
 these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most
 common group affected.  I think we really need to get better at scheduling
 events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major
 activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site
 advertising/banners/messaging for their success.  The further in advance a
 potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective
 solutions to those conflicts can be put into place.  It would be really
 helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in
 advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful
 in planning major local activities.

 I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look
 for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.

 Risker/Anne





 On 21 August 2015 at 16:22, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote:

  From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
  organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
  campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
  WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't
 have
  arisen / could have been resolved locally.
 
  Thanks,
  Mike
 
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[John Mark Vandenberg]

Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only
during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other
page?

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

This is not the first time this conflict appears, but this is the worst
outcome ever so far. In all the years I have been asking for an explanation
why it is not possible to move it, or why it is urgently to do it in
September, nothing reasonable has been provided for that. Nothing in all
those years.

If a fundraising banner has a big negative influence on a project, I think
it is time to have the community involved and have them speak out what they
think about the situation. As FR only speaks to a few people, they seem to
have the impression that they can freely decide without taking the
community in account. I think it will be time to have the community speak
out what they think in a request for comment/voting or something on Meta.
Anyone an idea or the experience how to set such up?

Romaine

2015-08-20 13:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg mfwarb...@googlemail.com:

 Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so
 urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
 Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb Risker risker...@gmail.com:

  I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing
 here,
  but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
  options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
  perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
  Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
  the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
  least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
 WLM
  banners in rotation.)
 
  Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
  of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
  them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
  specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
 list.
  I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
  come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
 
  Risker/Anne
 
  On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
   organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
  
   The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group
 of
   Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for
 showing
   content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
  this
   field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
   majority of the people.
  
   Romaine
  
   2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:
  
I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
   very
easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
  top.
It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
  (in
Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's
 English).
   
And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
  knows
homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
   count
the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing
 page).
   
Aubrey
   
   
   
On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray 
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
   
 On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu
  wrote:
  There's a more general problem here we should fix:
 
  We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
  dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a
 reason
   to
 run
  a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners
 to
   run.

 I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising
 experience
 to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
  WLM
 - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.

 The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
  it,
 and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate,
 you
 probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either;
 while
 if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
  the
 banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has
 progressively
 less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
 relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
 sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
 well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking
 for
 it.

 However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do
 something,
 and come back again to tell us about it.

 The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
 person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go
  off
 to take some photos - after all, it's running all 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

Why wmf needs to put a fundraising banner every year on wp. Isn't there enough 
money in Frisco?

Just wondering :)

 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:48:02 +1000
 From: jay...@gmail.com
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in 
 Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
 
 Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only
 during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other
 page?
 
 --
 John Vandenberg
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[MF-Warburg]

Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so
urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb Risker risker...@gmail.com:

 I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
 but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
 options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
 perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
 Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
 the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
 least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
 banners in rotation.)

 Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
 of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
 them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
 specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
 I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
 come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.

 Risker/Anne

 On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote:

  Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
  organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
 
  The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
  Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
  content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
 this
  field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
  majority of the people.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:
 
   I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
  very
   easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
 top.
   It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
 (in
   Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's English).
  
   And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
 knows
   homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
  count
   the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
  
   Aubrey
  
  
  
   On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray 
 andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
   wrote:
  
On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu
 wrote:
 There's a more general problem here we should fix:

 We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
 dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
  to
run
 a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
  run.
   
I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
 WLM
- to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
   
The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
 it,
and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
 the
banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
it.
   
However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do something,
and come back again to tell us about it.
   
The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go
 off
to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
 upload
their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
 won't
really know where to go. They might not remember the name (Wiki
something?), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
   
I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
generalise from the diminishing returns experienced on fundraising.
Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Sam Klein]

There's a more general problem here we should fix:

We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason to run
a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

We should improve the effectiveness of all banners by showing them
conservatively.  If most pageloads are completely banner free, banners will
likely have a greater impact when they are shown. And we should be able to
measure this: tracking how effective each % of visibility is at getting
clickthroughs for each banner.  Making that sort of data immediately
visible to everyone who designs banners would be a great step forward.

Are WLM projects doing A/B testing of banner messages?  Do you have access
to A/B test frameworks and results?

SJ




On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi Antanana,
 
  And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with
 also
  there the downside effects.
 
  This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
  Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
  matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
  and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
  both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
  assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
 
  I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
  how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
  Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
 
  Romaine
 
 
 It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
 advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
 WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
 Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
 with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Craig Franklin]

It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach
casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and
existing communication channels.  This is why the Fundraising team run
banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk
page messages, I would imagine.  The communications channels you're
referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when
you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the top
of articles can't be beat.

Cheers,
Craig

On 19 August 2015 at 05:18, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi Antanana,
 
  And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with
 also
  there the downside effects.
 
  This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
  Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
  matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
  and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
  both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
  assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
 
  I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
  how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
  Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
 
  Romaine
 
 
 It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
 advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
 WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
 Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
 with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
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 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andrew Gray]

On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu wrote:
 There's a more general problem here we should fix:

 We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
 dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason to run
 a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
- to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.

The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
it.

However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do something,
and come back again to tell us about it.

The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go off
to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
really know where to go. They might not remember the name (Wiki
something?), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.

I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
generalise from the diminishing returns experienced on fundraising.
Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
provide the value to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
visible in some way when they come back.

Andrew.

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.

The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
majority of the people.

Romaine

2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:

 I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's very
 easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top.
 It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
 Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's English).

 And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
 homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot count
 the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).

 Aubrey



 On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
 wrote:

  On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu wrote:
   There's a more general problem here we should fix:
  
   We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
   dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason to
  run
   a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.
 
  I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
  to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
  - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
 
  The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
  and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
  probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
  if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
  banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
  less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
  relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
  sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
  well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
  it.
 
  However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do something,
  and come back again to tell us about it.
 
  The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
  person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go off
  to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
  it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
  their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
  really know where to go. They might not remember the name (Wiki
  something?), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
  probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
  the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
  involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
  information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
  easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
  action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
  importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
 
  I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
  generalise from the diminishing returns experienced on fundraising.
  Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
  clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
  provide the value to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
  make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
  fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
  visible in some way when they come back.
 
  Andrew.
 
  --
  - Andrew Gray
andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Risker]

I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
banners in rotation.)

Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.

Risker/Anne

On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
 organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.

 The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
 Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
 content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
 field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
 majority of the people.

 Romaine

 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:

  I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
 very
  easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top.
  It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
  Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's English).
 
  And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
  homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
 count
  the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
 
  Aubrey
 
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
  wrote:
 
   On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu wrote:
There's a more general problem here we should fix:
   
We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
 to
   run
a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
 run.
  
   I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
   to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
   - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
  
   The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
   and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
   probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
   if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
   banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
   less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
   relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
   sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
   well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
   it.
  
   However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do something,
   and come back again to tell us about it.
  
   The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
   person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go off
   to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
   it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
   their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
   really know where to go. They might not remember the name (Wiki
   something?), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
   probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
   the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
   involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
   information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
   easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
   action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
   importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
  
   I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
   generalise from the diminishing returns experienced on fundraising.
   Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
   clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
   provide the value to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
   make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
   fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
   visible in 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hi!

I think one point is skipped, before this should be discussed at all: why
is it not possible to move a banner to another month?
This question needs an answer first. Each time this problem occurs,
multiple years now in different occasions, the fundraising team says they
can't move the banner, but they have never provided any reasonable
explanation for that at all.

Because of the fundraising banner, this community project and the content
of both Wikipedia and Commons experience a huge loss. What makes the loss
is worth it for the movement?

That is the core question that needs an answer first in my opinion.

Romaine

2015-08-20 7:26 GMT+02:00 Risker risker...@gmail.com:

 I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
 but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
 options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
 perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
 Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
 the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
 least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
 banners in rotation.)

 Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
 of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
 them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
 specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
 I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
 come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.

 Risker/Anne

 On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote:

  Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
  organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
 
  The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
  Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
  content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
 this
  field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
  majority of the people.
 
  Romaine
 
  2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:
 
   I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
  very
   easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
 top.
   It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
 (in
   Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's English).
  
   And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
 knows
   homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
  count
   the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
  
   Aubrey
  
  
  
   On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray 
 andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
   wrote:
  
On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu
 wrote:
 There's a more general problem here we should fix:

 We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
 dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
  to
run
 a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
  run.
   
I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
 WLM
- to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
   
The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
 it,
and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
 the
banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
it.
   
However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do something,
and come back again to tell us about it.
   
The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go
 off
to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
 upload
their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
 won't
really know where to go. They might not remember the name (Wiki
something?), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
involved in the projects already they 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Ricordisamoa]

Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the 
ones on Commons?


Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:

I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
banners in rotation.)

Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.

Risker/Anne

On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote:


Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.

The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
majority of the people.

Romaine

2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:


I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

very

easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top.
It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's English).

And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot

count

the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).

Aubrey



On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:


On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu wrote:

There's a more general problem here we should fix:

We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason

to

run

a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to

run.

I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
- to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.

The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
it.

However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do something,
and come back again to tell us about it.

The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go off
to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
really know where to go. They might not remember the name (Wiki
something?), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.

I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
generalise from the diminishing returns experienced on fundraising.
Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
provide the value to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
visible in some way when they come back.

Andrew.

--
- 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

If a local community wants this, they can create such of course. But I
think most visitors from Wikipedia do not visit the Main Page.

2015-08-20 7:41 GMT+02:00 Ricordisamoa ricordisa...@openmailbox.org:

 Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the ones
 on Commons?


 Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:

 I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
 but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
 options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
 perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says Upload images for
 Wiki Loves Monuments here! may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
 the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
 least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
 WLM
 banners in rotation.)

 Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
 of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
 them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
 specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
 list.
 I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
 come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.

 Risker/Anne

 On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
 organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.

 The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
 Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
 content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
 this
 field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
 majority of the people.

 Romaine

 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com:

 I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

 very

 easy to remember go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top.
 It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
 Italy it's still called Wiki Loves Monuments, even if it's English).

 And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
 homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot

 count

 the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).

 Aubrey



 On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
 
 wrote:

 On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu wrote:

 There's a more general problem here we should fix:

 We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
 dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason

 to

 run

 a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to

 run.

 I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
 to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
 - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.

 The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
 and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
 probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
 if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
 banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
 less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
 relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide I'll
 sleep on it, then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
 well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
 it.

 However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - go off, do something,
 and come back again to tell us about it.

 The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
 person will see it, click through, think that sounds fun, and go off
 to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
 it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
 their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
 really know where to go. They might not remember the name (Wiki
 something?), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
 probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
 the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
 involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
 information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
 easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
 action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
 importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.

 I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
 generalise from the diminishing returns experienced on fundraising.
 Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
 clickthroughs. But with WLM, those 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[attolippip]

Sad news indeed.
Is there a public discussion about this issue anywhere?
Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?

Best regards,
antanana
ED of Wikimedia Ukraine

2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 Sad news.
 The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
 situation as it looks now.

 *Background*
 Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
 many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
 banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
 attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
 with photos of the local cultural heritage.

 Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
 no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
 participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
 participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
 above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.



 *What is the situation?*
 * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
 the month September.
 * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
 contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.

 As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
 about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.

 Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
 appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
 and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
 September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
 important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
 the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
 uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.

 This is what I would call a devastating effect.

 And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
 * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
 years.
 * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
 * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
 but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.

 This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
 was possible to move it for the second country.

 This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright
 situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
 much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest.
 The Italian team does a great job this year.


 *My conclusion*
 The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
 of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
 was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
 wrong assumption somehow?

 But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
 is sad, very sad.


 Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
 successful contest.

 Greetings,

 Romaine



 PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
 year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.






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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hi Antanana,

And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with also
there the downside effects.

This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.

I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.

Romaine


2015-08-18 20:50 GMT+02:00 attolippip attolip...@gmail.com:

 Sad news indeed.
 Is there a public discussion about this issue anywhere?
 Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?

 Best regards,
 antanana
 ED of Wikimedia Ukraine

 2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 Sad news.
 The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
 situation as it looks now.

 *Background*
 Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
 many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
 banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
 attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
 with photos of the local cultural heritage.

 Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there
 is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
 participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
 participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
 above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.



 *What is the situation?*
 * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
 the month September.
 * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
 contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.

 As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
 about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.

 Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
 appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
 and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
 September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
 important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
 the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
 uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.

 This is what I would call a devastating effect.

 And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
 * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
 years.
 * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
 * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
 but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.

 This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
 was possible to move it for the second country.

 This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
 copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do
 much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a
 normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.


 *My conclusion*
 The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
 of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
 was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
 wrong assumption somehow?

 But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
 is sad, very sad.


 Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
 successful contest.

 Greetings,

 Romaine



 PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
 year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.






 ___
 Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
 wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
 http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org



 ___
 Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
 wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
 http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Nathan]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi Antanana,

 And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with also
 there the downside effects.

 This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
 Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
 matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
 and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
 both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
 assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.

 I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
 how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
 Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.

 Romaine


It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Maarten Dammers]

Hi Romaine,

Sad to hear this. I remember running in the same situation a couple of 
years ago (2013) when a really prominent new privacy policy banner was 
put up for everyone with a high percentage for most of the month [1]. 
Back than I contacted the people at the WMF responsible for that. I got 
some very polite replies that can be summed up as our project is more 
important than yours. The WMF owns the sites so if they feel like they 
want to put up banners that conflict with WLM, they can just do that and 
there is nothing we can do about that (besides complaining on mailing 
lists).


Maarten

[1] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=CentralNotice/Calendaroldid=5844467


Romaine Wiki schreef op 18-8-2015 om 20:42:

Hi all,

Sad news.
The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the 
situation as it looks now.


*Background*
Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised 
by many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this 
contest a banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific 
countries to attract attention from the public to participate in 
enriching Wikipedia with photos of the local cultural heritage.


Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When 
there is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as 
possible participants are not informed and can't easily find the 
contest site. Also participants need time to go on location to take 
photos and see the banner above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way 
back.



*What is the situation?
*
* The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy 
during the month September.
* The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the 
contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.


As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been 
talks about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments 
get only 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.


Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the 
appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is 
used, and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the 
month September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full 
weeks, important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, 
based on the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% 
of the uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been 
expected.


This is what I would call a devastating effect.

And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
* They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the 
past years.

* They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
* And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another 
month, but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.


This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow 
it was possible to move it for the second country.


This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult 
copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to 
do much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have 
a normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.



*My conclusion*
The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the 
content of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always 
thought that this was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia 
movement. Did I made a wrong assumption somehow?


But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. 
This is sad, very sad.



Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve 
a successful contest.


Greetings,

Romaine



PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments 
this year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.








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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Ilario Valdelli]

Yes it can be possible without touching the fundraising's banner.

The banner can be put in the Mediawiki:sitenotice in each project and 
can cohabitate with the fundraising's banner.


The real problem is that a small banner can have only a limited effect.

On 18.08.2015 23:31, Platonides wrote:


Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be 
possible to be convinced to include a small WLM ad in the donation 
page?


--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Platonides]

Really sad indeed. Specially for a country with such a complicated 
situation as Italy.


Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be 
possible to be convinced to include a small WLM ad in the donation page?
I would expect targetting people that visit the page but doesn't donate, 
or listing other ways to help after donation (a more standard one 
about editing could be used, too). It won't have the same impact as a 
banner, but it'd be an interesting approach.


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