Re: [EVDL] EV Brakes

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Depending on how the car works and if the brake lights are engaged when regen 
braking it could be considered a hard braking event and increase the likelihood 
of the car behind rear ending you so it’s not clear the insurance company is 
wrong in this.  But as noted it does depend on factors they likely don’t 
account for.

I would really like a constant power mode where I could set a cruise control 
like setting where the maximum power was limited to allow me to go downhill 
without regeneration but to limit the uphill power usage to something 
reasonable.

Lawrence

> On May 24, 2018, at 14:03, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> But releasing the accelerator at any time to cause high regen is the same
> as a hard braking event, (a rapid deceleration of the car changing speed)
> and a waste of energy unless it is part of an unavoidable stopping event..
> Coasting instead of regen will retain double the energy compared to using
> regen no matter whether it is from pressing the brake pedal or simply
> releasing pressure on the accelerator.  You mention feathering the
> accelerator, but I interpret that as during acceleration.
> 
> And cruise control is also wasteful, since it will use regen to maintain
> speed going down a hill instead of letting the car coast and -preserve- its
> kinetic energy and the added potential energy from the hill.  Both of which
> are double what you can get from regen.
> 
> In summary, Braking is bad in any car (throws away energy)  Regen is half
> as bad.  Coasting is the only thing that is "good".
> 
> Bob
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 2:27 PM, robert winfield 
> wrote:
> 
>> Except, I rarely used the brakes at all, but instead used a combination of
>> high regeneration, cruise control, feathering the accelerator as necessary,
>> and almost never touched the brakes except to eliminate the "creep" when
>> stopped.
>> 
>> I have both* 2.2 million miles driving experience* and 53 months
>> ownership of a 2014 Chevy Volt.
>> 
>> The last 3 wrecks I was in were when i was stopped at a stop light, rear
>> ended, in clear weather, by distracted drivers
>> First and 2nd were texting, once an attempted carjacking near Takoma Park
>> Metro station and last was on a 5 mile straight, 4lane divided highway,
>> clear weather, light traffic, no sun glare, distracted elderly driver,
>> absolutely no reason to hit me, I was stopped for 8-10 seconds
>> 
>> I DON'T tailgate, it's a recipe for death, destruction and sorrow
>> 
>> i became quite adept at 1,000 mile, 1 pedal driving w/cruise control,
>> It matters not whether it is wasteful to use brakes or regeneration, (with
>> brake lights)
>> 
>> If i tried coasting to a stop in SW Florida, there are a LOT of hostile
>> folks who would (and have) "show that libtard idiot with the EV/PHEV" and i
>> would be dead
>> I have been "Coal rolled" but they failed as the PHEV with a tiny goose of
>> the accelerator zoomed past and  left them in their dust
>> I have been going down I-75 and been passed, at night, by vehicles going
>> almost twice as fast, with the effective actual speed limit just under 80
>> (well over 130-140)
>> 
>> traffic lights are at best a suggestion. people routinely go the wrong way
>> at high speeds down divided highways because it's shorter, I have been
>> casually sideswiped and my rear view mirror folded out
>> who then ran. elderly drivers routinely get confused and just go, whether
>> the light is green, yellow or red. A red light means 3-6 more vehicles caan
>> go, some at very high rates of speed ,Slaloming  around stopped vehicles
>> 
>> Couples get into arguments and jump out of cars at speed and die,
>> you can easily get shot for looking at other motorists, who have stickers
>> proclaiming "Assault Life" with crossed AR-15's
>> 
>> Hypermiling/coasting is an invitation to a coffin, unless there is zero
>> other traffic, the last time i hypermiled was in a 1956, 2 door Plymouth
>> station wagon that was designed to "coast" when you let up on the
>> acceleraator, which almost caused a wreck, before we hard disengaged the
>> lever on the transmission, as it was extremely unsafe in any traffic.
>> 
>> I never tailgate but stay well back, the radar is set in the new vehicle
>> for 30-50 meters
>> 
>> On Thursday, May 24, 2018, 12:36:54 PM EDT, Robert Bruninga via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Then again, the driver could be still hard braking.  I have heard some
>> people say that they frequently use the brakes to regen energy to extend
>> range.  Makes no sense whatsoever.
>> 
>> Heavy regen is not free energy, it is exactly the opposite.  Yes, it
>> recovers maybe 55% of keinetic energy compared to an ICE car that throws
>> away 100% of kinetic energy.  But still you are wasting fully HALF of the
>> battery energy used to get to speed.
>> 
>> But if the car is not coming to a stop and the driver is only applying the
>> brakes to slow down because she was 

Re: [EVDL] Silicon Mobility and 30% Efficiency Increase

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

It’s an interesting paper, they are talking about the use of co-processors to 
offload the inner control and improve performance.  I could not find any 
percent value in the document so the 30% does not come from them.  What they 
have is basically graphic controller for EV’s.  It’s not clear if the SPU 
(signal processing units) are configured like FPGA’s so sensor and control 
hardware is bound to an SPU or if they just have the ability to access the 
various peripherals.  The ability to configure a given chip for say motor 
control in one application or battery charger in another should be a cost 
saving which along with tighter control and improved efficiency should reduce 
cost or improve performance.  As noted I am not sure it mean 30% more range but 
it might mean 30% cheaper.

Lawrence

> On Mar 21, 2018, at 8:45 AM, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
> 
> Recently numerous negative comments were made concerning Silicon Mobility 
> claim to improve inverter efficiency by 30% by use of their chip OLEA 
> T22-1005.  Their claim is based on a white paper that is available on their 
> website.  The link is: 
> http://www.silicon-mobility.com/silicon-mobility/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/EVS30_Solving-Hybrid-Electric-powertrain-software-bottelneck.pdf.
>   It is interesting reading.
> 
> 
> EVS30 Symposium Stuttgart, Germany, October 9 - 11, 2017 
> ...
> www.silicon-mobility.com
> EVS30 International Battery, Hybrid and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle Symposium 
> 1 EVS30 Symposium Stuttgart, Germany, October 9 - 11, 2017
> 
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Re: [EVDL] A Living legend - Dave Cloud has passed from this LIFE

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Oh oh oh...  Rest in Peace Dave and my condolences to Loy and his family.  I 
remember him coming to many REV! shows (now called Electrafest) here in 
Vancouver Canada.  He would bring a couple of his electrathon cars to race and 
to show the high school kids what was possible.  They didn’t look much 
different from the kids versions but many seemingly minor engineering 
adjustments made them go so much faster.  I am know many of the kids spent time 
looking at them, talking to him and taking his lessons to heart.  A man with a 
big heart.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Jan 19, 2018, at 15:56, Steven Lough via EV  wrote:
> 
> Words can not describe the sadness I am feeling this afternoon. Loy,  Dave 
> Cloud's wife, just called me and told me that Dave passed away earlier today.
> 
> His life work will be remembered long after many of us join him in that Big 
> EV Garage in the Sky.
> 
> He was like a brother in arms to me.  We dreamed big dreams together.  The 
> big difference is that money or the lack of hardware never stopped him from 
> just going to the work shop and making it happen.
> 
> Here are just a few pictures I have found and put together over the last two 
> days.
> 
> ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/23079348@N08/sets/72157691669366944/ )
> 
> Rest in Peace my friend...
> 
> -- 
> 
> -- 
> Steven S Lough
> PRESIDENT EMERITUS
> Seattle EV Association
> Web:  www.seattleeva.org
> 206 524 1351
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Another recommendation for a drive way protection circuit....

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Hi Jay, nice work.  I have a couple of times been saved by the drive-a-way 
interlock so yet I too would recommend it for anyone.

Question though, what’s on the other end of your 110v opportunity charge cable? 
 It looks like a male, male cable and that is pretty dangerous.  I would have 
put a 110v male socket on the car and made sure it was never energized by the 
J1772 socket or otherwise.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Jan 9, 2018, at 19:11, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> 
> If you have a conversion EV, please make sure that when your charger is 
> plugged in something disables your motor/controller so that the EV can't 
> drive away.
> 
> This is especially important if you are using a twistlock, or J1772 
> connector, but even pulling out a NEMA 5-15 by the cable isn't optimal
> 
> There is a reason all commercial EV's have this interlock, and it's the top 
> photo of my blog post:
> 
> 
> https://www.summet.com/blog/2018/01/07/new-charging-inlet-drive-away-protection/
> 
> (a hole left by pulling a J1772 inlet out of my truck)
> 
> On the plus side, I took this "opportunity" to upgrade my charging inlet 
> cover so now it slides to the side instead of lifting to the top (a video of 
> the new cover in action is at the end of my blog post.
> 
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Interesting from a production point of view.  If they have a need for low 
quantities (relative) of motors with different HP then it might make sense to 
tools once and then be able to vary the characteristics during assembly.  I was 
thinking it might be more interesting if they put the rotor on a lead screw and 
allowed the positioning of the magnets w.r.t. the coils to be adjusted.  Would 
provide something like field weakening on a permanent magnet motor.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Jan 4, 2018, at 15:09, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
> 
> I do not see the advantage except having the capability to use one motor core 
> for multiply HP motors.  Does anyone think GM is going to use different 
> magnet lengths in the same motor?  Does this have some efficiency 
> improvement?  Do you think they are going modify the controller to allow 
> different magnet lengths in the same motor?  Anyone have any thoughts on this 
> subject?
> 
> 
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 2:43 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: brucedp5
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent
> 
> Anyone who thinks General Motors isn’t serious about electric vehicle
> leadership doesn’t have a clue.
> 
> Despite Silicon Valley’s derogatory ideology regarding conventional car
> companies like General Motors, the dinosaur from Detroit has been at the
> forefront of electrifying personal mobility. GM’s flirtation with electric
> vehicles began in earnest back the early ’60s. It started with the
> Electro-Vair and Electro-Maro programs in the ’60s, then came a
> battery-powered Chevette in 1977, followed by production of the EV1 in the
> late ’90s, before culminating with the Chevrolet Bolt, the industry’s first
> long-range-yet-affordable-mainstream-electric-car.
> 
> But the company isn’t resting on its laurels, as Tesla Model 3 reviews begin
> to hit the internet, GM is busy working on a new family of electric cars due
> in 2021. While advancements in battery technology have long been heralded as
> the key to consumer adoption, GM engineers haven’t forgotten that a motor is
> still what propels a vehicle forward, electric or not.
> 
> Published on December 19, 2017, by the USPTO, GM has filed a patent for an
> electric motor with multiple magnet lengths which could totally change how
> the company thinks about manufacturing electric propulsion systems.
> 
> For example, the Chevrolet Bolt uses a permanent magnet brushless motor,
> where a magnetic field is produced by the spinning magnet and rotor assembly
> which then transfers to the stator core and interacts with flowing current
> to create torque. Differing magnet lengths will change the torque output,
> smaller magnets decrease torque, while longer ones increase torque,
> proportionally.
> 
> What the company is proposing is a new “modular” lamination sheet which
> would be capable of accepting multiple magnet lengths. Instead of being
> forced to re-engineer the lamination stack each time a change in magnet
> length is required, GM proposes a series of tabs within the apertures of the
> lamination sheets which, when layered, can be assembled to delineate the
> magnet slots.
> 
> Effectively, the tabs will allow the stacks to accept either short or long
> magnets–the tab will support the shorter magnet halfway down the aperture or
> get pushed out of the way upon inserting a longer magnet. GM claims there
> will be at least a 25-percent difference in magnet lengths.
> 
> It’s helpful to think about GM’s work with modular lamination stacks almost
> like powertrain sharing–take GM’s naturally-aspirated 6.2-liter small-block
> V8, which is offered in LT1 and L86 guise. As the high-performance version,
> the LT1 is equipped with a shorter intake runner for better high-rpm
> breathing, different exhaust manifolds, and unique cam timing; while the
> trucks make use of longer intake runners in order to fatten up the mid-range
> torque curve.
> 
> What will be of interest moving forward is how GM plans to implement the
> respective magnet lengths, will the smaller magnets be used for efficiency,
> while the bigger ones left for high-performance or hauling? Possibly, but
> there are also drawbacks to simply increasing magnet size; larger magnets
> may create more torque, but they also force the coil to fight through more
> resistance as the higher torque values lead to an increase in eddy and
> hysteresis.
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I am thinking we are talking about malls and other public charging stations and 
that there would be a grace period after charging completes.  Businesses that 
supply EV charging (I had such for a few years) can set their own rules.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 17:24, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:55, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> 
>> Anybody parked in a "green light" spot is suceptible to ticketing and
>> towing.
> 
> I don't think that insisting people take time out from work to move their 
> cars when charged, subject to their cars being ticketed or towed, is the way 
> to get more of them into EVs.  
> 
> From an employer's perspective, such interruptions don't help productivity.
> 
> What if you're in a critical meeting when the "time's up" message arrives?
> 
> I'd rather see employers install enough EVSEs to support all their EV 
> drivers, but that's probably unrealistic.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that goes green 
while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the end of charge and red 
when done.  A (not so) subtle hint of the state of the charging spot - in use 
through to hogging.  It would make parking attendants able to credit say a 1 
hour limit after charge end before getting a ticket.  I know charge point and 
sometime my car both let me know when it’s finished charging.  I am sure others 
do to.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:55, Cor van de Water <cwa...@proxim.com> wrote:
> 
> That is why it is so infuriating to see the same Tesla S always parked in the 
> first EV charging stall at a local hospital,
> clearly a member of the staff, never plugged in. And plenty other EVs 
> scrambling to get the charging cords stretched
> out to the adjacent parking spots when available,  there are 4 L2 charging 
> spots and a few other L1 spaces for
> opportunity charging, but I see adjacent non-EV charging spaces with EVs in 
> them and cords stretched to the max
> to reach those spaces, while the S sits there the whole day every day not 
> charging.
> Apparently, that person does not want to get the message, so unless the 
> policies are changed and he is towed,
> he is going to block the charging spot for everyone
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Harris via 
> EV
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Lawrence Harris
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces
> 
> It works both ways too.  I often see EV’s or plug in hybrids parked in the EV 
> spot with either the charger not plugged or the charger at end of cycle.
> 
> As was noted it’s an EV charging spot, not an EV parking spot.  I often don’t 
> bother with the EV spot because I don’t need the charge.
> 
> Regards,
> Lawrence Harris
> lhar...@haritech.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:26, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> http://thenewswheel.com/does-putting-a-potato-in-a-cars-tailpipe-actua
>> lly-cause-damage/ ... stuffing party horns in a car’s tailpipe is a 
>> lot funnier ...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VLl-qghAY
>> 
>> No one should cause harm to the ice offender or their property.
>> 
>> Getting everyone to understand, an EV spot is NOT a parking spot.
>> *It is a charging spot.
>> 
>> There should be EV charging spot signage stating tow-away & fines if 
>> non-EVs block the EV charging spot. And there must be a city or campus 
>> ordinance to back the signage up. City or campus police then need to 
>> be educated by making that ordinance part of their SOP (standard operating 
>> procedure).
>> Then you can call the police to enforce the ordinance by towing the 
>> ice away (the ice offender won't do that again).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> a bumper sticker that reads "I hate polar bears so much I park in EV
>> spaces<
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: 
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

It works both ways too.  I often see EV’s or plug in hybrids parked in the EV 
spot with either the charger not plugged or the charger at end of cycle.

As was noted it’s an EV charging spot, not an EV parking spot.  I often don’t 
bother with the EV spot because I don’t need the charge.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:26, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> http://thenewswheel.com/does-putting-a-potato-in-a-cars-tailpipe-actually-cause-damage/
> ... stuffing party horns in a car’s tailpipe is a lot funnier ...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VLl-qghAY
> 
> No one should cause harm to the ice offender or their property.
> 
> Getting everyone to understand, an EV spot is NOT a parking spot.
> *It is a charging spot.
> 
> There should be EV charging spot signage stating tow-away & fines if non-EVs
> block the EV charging spot. And there must be a city or campus ordinance to
> back the signage up. City or campus police then need to be educated by
> making that ordinance part of their SOP (standard operating procedure). 
> Then you can call the police to enforce the ordinance by towing the ice away
> (the ice offender won't do that again).
> 
> 
> 
>> a bumper sticker that reads "I hate polar bears so much I park in EV
> spaces<
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Smart ED questions

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Can’t really answer the questions as I have not tried to get any of this 
information.  In Canada the car only comes with the battery.   Mine was bought 
in late 2013 and is a 2014 model year.  So far I have just taken it in once per 
year for their checkup routine and the battery seems to only get better - 
probably as I get better at driving it.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Oct 23, 2017, at 13:38, mark hanson  wrote:
> 
> Hi Lawrence,
>  
> The Smart ED was my first choice for a factory EV until I found out I 
> couldn’t get the shop manual or a OBD-2 CanBus reader like the LeafSpy I have 
> on the Leaf.  Then the wheeler dealer told me it had half the battery 
> warranty since it was half a car (not the standard 100K 8 year) OR I had to 
> make monthly battery payments (about $99?) or buy the battery for $5K extra 
> (on top of what I paid for a used Smart).  In addition I had to TOW it to 
> Wash DC once a year (I’m 250 miles away in Roanoke and both Mercedes dealers 
> here said they have nothing to do with Smarts) to have them tweak stuff to 
> keep the battery warranty in effect.  Smart *really* needs a Smart 
> dealership!  Not the bastard child of Mercedes…
>  
> Have they changed any of their policies or are they still trying to UNSELL 
> their EV’s?
>  
> I currently own a Leaf and a Spark, like both but the Leaf has more service 
> info (thanks to Cor etc, not wheeler dealers).  The Spark handles better, 
> more fun to drive/park – but I hope it never breaks, would be harder to fix, 
> the polar opposite of my last conversion www.evalbum.com/4346 
>  .
>  
> Have a renewable energy day,
>  
> Mark
>  
> Mark E. Hanson
> 184 Vista Lane
> Fincastle, VA 24090
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org   (See Project Gallery)
> UL Certified PV Installer
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh   
> FREE Solar EV Charging! ; http://www.WeatherLink.com/user/MarkHansonREEVA 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Efficacy of regeneration to charge battery

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I see this all the time when I go up to the ski hill.  I start about 80% at the 
bottom, arrive with 40% or so and then when I get back down I am back to 60% 
(all rough figures but in the ball park).  Without the recovery on the way down 
I would probably need to stop and charge on the way home.  My smart ED gets 
about 100km / charge and one days I go up the mountain the estimator suggest my 
total range is more like 125 to 130 km so yes, up and down the mountain seems 
to be pretty much a zero sum option, expensive up but enough recovery down so 
my total range for the day stays about the same.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Oct 23, 2017, at 12:19, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 22 Oct 2017 at 21:02, davinder via EV wrote:
> 
>> I am puzzling over how regeneration in ev charges the main battery.
>> Plug in charging takes 8-10 hour charging to top up the battery - so
>> when the vehicle is rolling down hill oe deaccelerating the 'charge
>> energy' is avalable for seconds or minutes. 
> 
> Regenerative braking doesn't fully charge the EV's battery.  It would be 
> great if it could -- drive for free! -- but it can't.  You'll never recover 
> 100% of the energy you used to put the vehicle in motion.  That's physics 
> for you.  
> 
> IIRC when you add regenerative braking, the typical increase in range (and 
> hence energy recovery) is around 20%.  I've read that in hilly regions you 
> can get to 35%.  
> 
> To see this taken to an extreme, look here:
> 
> http://www.evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html
> 
> Over 20 years ago, Axel Krause of Brusa designed a light EV with efficient 
> components and aggressive use of regen.  He drove it over the Apls, and 
> thanks to the regen, got essentially the same range he would have had if 
> he'd driven on flat ground!
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

The EPA 
(https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references
 
)
 calculates 4.73 metric tons  CO2/vehicle/year for a passenger car, so 47.3 
over 10 years due to it’s operation vs their number of 37.4; a difference of 10 
tons.  Manufacture is probably a lost leader since the amounts of CO2 would be 
roughly equivalent and variable in any event.  I also question the equivalence 
of the carbon markets as that more or less just shifts carbon production from 
one place to another and does not directly reduce it.

Was this published in any public media?  The reference is to their web site and 
so it’s just an opportunity piece looking for an outlet.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris




> On Aug 3, 2017, at 05:54, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Not sure if anyone has seen the article below:
> 
> In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
> provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
> cut greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expensive-and-ineffective
> 
> 
> Would anyone care to comment on this?  Agree or disagree?  Is it oil funded
> FUD? I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, one of the have-not provinces for EV
> rebates.  I can affirm that without rebates EV car sales here are pretty
> well nonexistent, most dealers here carry very little EV stock and the
> charging infrastructure is well behind provinces that do offer rebates.  I
> see other  media outlets and even local environmental groups regularly
> quoting this article too.  Sounds like my province will never get an
> incentive with this type of media :-(
> 
> Cheers
> Dan
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Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

The European smart ED supports 22kW charge rate, we only get 3.3kW with a 
measly 7.2kW on the 2017 models.

So a Europan smart could maybe ask for 22kW from a 7.2kW EVSE which if it 
failed to limit the current might overheat and …

Seems unlikely the EVSE would fail and the beaker would fail and then the fire 
jump to the car and cause all this damage.  More likely there was a short in 
the car or someone torched it.

My takeaway is the plastic in these items needs to have fire resistance added 
so it can’t burn.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Jul 11, 2017, at 15:03, David Kerzel via EV  wrote:
> 
> In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT
> signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit.  If the car could use 32 amps the 30
> amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour.  Can the car
> in question charge at 32 Amps?  
> I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded
> in some way caused the car to burn.  The car should only accept the maximum
> amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do
> with the EVSE.
> I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE.  I find it hard to believe a
> listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a
> vehicle on fire.
> David Kerzel
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
> acrisp ?
> 
> Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe
> to draw from the electrical connection.
> For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the
> car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
> The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey
> this to the EV.
> If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will
> tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
> 
> Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there
> are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the
> charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
> And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
> This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a
> small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the
> wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated
> to the point of setting the cord on fire.
> 
> I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the
> wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so
> after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated
> electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so
> during a hot wash
> cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside
> the outlet burned clean through.
> There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was
> purely a resistive heating induced failure.
> 
> Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug
> contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger)
> can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water
> cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns...
> So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
> Cor.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
> To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
> acrisp ?
> 
> What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
> The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
> David Kerzel
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp
> ?
> 
> % First look at:
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
> lty-
> wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
> EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
> Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An electric
> car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while charging. The
> vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by smoke in the ...
> 
> 
> then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without their
> body.
> 
> The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal frame
> was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and 

Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Interesting.  Obviously the plastic body of the smart was quite flammable and 
maybe Mercedes should address that problem.  My normal comeback on these 
incidents is - have you noticed those rectangular black spots along the sides 
of the highways in summer?

The stated reason in the article was an electrical fault but it could have been 
arson as well.  This occurred yesterday and the article was published about 8 
hours after the fire was reported put out.  It seems unlikely that it’s 
actually been investigated yet and that was just the initial opinion of either 
the fire department on sight or maybe even the reporter.

These incidents should be investigated the failure mode determined and 
remediation recommended for future installations.  Maybe the EVSE’s should have 
a thermal sensor so that connection blocks that are getting too hot cause a 
shutdown and the charging circuits in the car should have the same.  I know the 
battery modules do (or should) but the main charger circuits could have the 
same.  We are now required to install spark gap circuit breakers in houses on 
the circuits that are in bedrooms, smoke detectors, etc.  it would be small 
leap to require similar in the vehicle and/or the EVSE circuit.

It would be really nice to know as well if the fault was in the car or the 
EVSE. 

If cars were airplanes all this would be second nature.  We demand to know why 
each and every plane crashes but just assume that unless a particular model car 
starts to show in the statistics we just ignore problems and assume human error 
or a one off manufacturing defect and go ‘oh well…"

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Jul 10, 2017, at 16:43, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is
> safe to draw from the electrical connection.
> For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling
> the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
> The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to
> convey this to the EV.
> If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it
> will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
> 
> Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself)
> there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded
> contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
> And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
> This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had
> a small fire in his house this last winter
> due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break
> internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point 
> of setting the cord on fire.
> 
> I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where
> the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked
> before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry
> for years (water was heated electrically so the washer
> drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash
> cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke
> and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through.
> There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this
> was purely a resistive heating induced failure.
> 
> Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging
> plug contacts,
> also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can
> fail, for example an improperly tightened wire
> or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently
> fails and burns...
> So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
> Cor.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel
> via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
> To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
> acrisp ?
> 
> What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
> The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
> David Kerzel
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a
> crisp ?
> 
> % First look at:
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
> lty-
> wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
> EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
> Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An
> electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while
> charging. The vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by
> smoke in the ...
> 
> 
> then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without
> their body.
> 
> The EV's body 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf onboard tire repair kit.

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I was told to use this goop only in an emergency as often the tire had to be 
replaced after use.  I apparently can harden in the tire and cause it to be 
unbalanced and that make the tire unrepeatable.  I just call BCAA (AAA) for a 
tow or in my case called my sister in law to bring one of my snow tires to use 
as a temp.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris

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Re: [EVDL] UPS truck whirring? Whaaaat!?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

A company here in Vancouver,BC made a bunch of electric UPS trucks some years 
back so they have been experimenting for a while.  They were looking to saves 
costs in the warehouse when they don’t need to exhaust diesel fumes or have 
employees wearing particle filter masks.  Also saved a ton on fuel costs and 
maintenance.  It’s fun to see these just popping up in the wild - probably just 
because it make business sense.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Apr 7, 2017, at 12:16, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> I was in Modesto today.  A UPS truck made a U turn and whirred away.  
> Wht!?
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[EVDL] OT / Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

GM is big enough to sit on their backsides until they are ready and even fail a 
few times before they get it right but put the ‘GM brand’ on an electric car 
and many many people will see it as ‘real’ and begin to buy them.  I am seeing 
a waiting list for the BOLT here in Vancouver.  People are seeing this as real 
now, a notch better than what’s currently available and with GM service 
available it’s a safe option.  I hope the Tesla 3 gets out in large numbers as 
that will definitely put pressure on the mainstream manufacturers but the likes 
of GM can go now or later and still be relevant regardless of timing.

This is getting off topic but I think you are a little off.  The ‘term’ IBM PC 
was not the original designation - it was the IBM 5120.  The name IBM PC was 
more a popular attribution but never the less it was the same machine.  And 
yes, IBM didn’t really see it as a home computer when it was initially 
introduced but it is the progenitor to all the versions and clones that came 
after.  It was their name on the product that made it a must have and a must 
copy and then when Lotus released Lotus 1-2-3 that made it competitive with 
VisiCalc on the Apple II.  After that businesses and then home users went with 
the name and the IBM PC become the defacto go-to machine.  This probably would 
have happened anyway regardless of Microsofts involvement.  Microsoft did 
capitalize on this and has done very well but I personally don’t think they 
were the direct cause.  IBM’s failure in all this was not to patent some of the 
hardware design and to not sign Microsoft to an exclusivity agreement which let 
the market get away from them and then inertia made it impossible to develop a 
better hardware or operating systems for the now fractured and ubiquitous IBM 
PC (clone) market.

Lawrence

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:41, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Ok, getting really off topic, but the IBM PC came after Microsoft determined 
> it was a useful personal device on its own. Orignally, IBM considered it as a 
> data entry machine, to be used only with mainframes. They had another name 
> for it which I can't remember. It was only after they saw how successful 
> Microsoft was becoming selling DOS for these machines that they changed their 
> tune.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "John Lussmyer via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "EVDL 
> Administrator" 
> Cc:
> Sent: 08-Mar-17 10:57:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's
> 
>> On Wed Mar 08 09:58:47 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>> There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
>>> Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
>>> computers.
>> 
>> You mean, like the IBM PC?  :-)
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
>> http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I am not sure what you mean by that, why would you want to know?

Just to be clear, the smart ED has a analog meter on the dash that shows 
clearly when regen is engaged and how much it’s being used.  You just typically 
don’t look at the meter or feel the braking operation transition from one to 
the other.  I suspect it continues to regen even when the friction brake is 
operating and your mind just integrates the motion of the car with how much 
force you need to put on the brake without much conscious thought.  I certainly 
would not want to control the two braking systems separately or consciously.

Lawrence
  
> On Mar 1, 2017, at 05:22, Willie via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/28/2017 09:43 PM, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote:
>> On my smart ED the regen is a hybrid of these.
> 
>> slow you down while smoothly engaging the friction braking at some point - I 
>> don’t normally feel the transition.
> 
> That was one of my Leaf complaints: it was difficult or impossible to tell 
> when friction braking was being used.  The Leaf design philosophy seems to 
> have included "obscure/hide information that might be useful to the driver"
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Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

On my smart ED the regen is a hybrid of these.

When you lift the accelerator pedal it will will begin to regen and slow you 
down.  If you feather the peddle you can coast and on some models there is a 
control that allows you to vary the regen on the accelerator pedal from none to 
some upper limit.  Often on the highway if I am going down hill I press the 
accelerator to speed up and it just reduces the regen.

When you press the brake peddle it will regen more aggressively and slow you 
down while smoothly engaging the friction braking at some point - I don’t 
normally feel the transition.

It does limit regen when the battery is full and that has a weird effect 
something like having wet brakes, you get use to it but sometimes its a mild 
surprise.

Lawrence

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 16:23, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
> 
> Excellent info.  This is the method I am thinking of implementing except I 
> will select the regen configuration via the CAN link to the VCU.  Does the 
> truck have wheel speed sensors??  I now wonder how the EV1 did regen.
> 
> Thanks for the info.  Bob.
> 
> 
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 3:14 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control
> 
> I have a US Electricar truck (there are also sedans based on the Prizm)
> and it has a fully configurable controller.
> You can set the max charge voltage (I m using it now with a Leaf pack,
> some people have used it with NiCd and NiMH and originally it had a Lead
> Acid pack)
> 
> You can also configure the regen control.
> Default it uses the automatic shifter positions (since the AC motor has
> a fixed ratio to the wheels and does not need a gear shift, just
> reverse/forward selection) to give different regen levels.
> In normal (Drive) position it does a light regen on throttle up, but
> this can be programmed to be zero if so desired or higher...
> In [2] it regens pretty hard and it feels like a BMW where you can do
> single pedal drive.
> In [1] it even simulates a harder regen, I have not yet experimented
> with that.
> 
> If you touch the brakes, it ups the regen even more (configurable)
> before applying friction brakes later in the pedal travel.
> 
> You can configure at which regen current the brake lights come one as
> you may hardly ever touch the brake pedal again if you like the [2] gear
> setting
> 
> I am enjoying this 1994 marvel of engineering
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
> ...
> www.proxim.com
> Proxim Wireless offers licensed and unlicensed point to point, backhaul, 
> bridge, point to multipoint, wireless broadband and wireless access points.
> 
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Corbin Dunn via
> EV
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 9:54 AM
> To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen and Smart Cruise Control
> 
> 
>> Il giorno 27 feb 2017, alle ore 4:22 PM, ROBERT via EV
>  ha scritto:
>> 
>> I noticed a series of e-mails on regen and smart cruise control.
> These two topic are closely related.  I have been looking at
> implementing regen on an AC motor controller.  I found that designing an
> AC motor controller in simple comparison to selecting the best regen
> implementation.  There are two typical methods for regen.  If you
> release the accelerator then start regen.  If you depress the brake then
> start regen.  Tesla and Nissan use the first method.
> 
> Tesla uses a different method; you must partially depress the throttle
> pedal to coast (zero power and zero regen). Regenerative braking gets
> progressively stronger as you lighten up off the pedal. It does full
> regen when your foot is off the pedal.
> 
>> Some other companies use the brake depress method.  The main
> advantages of the release accelerator method is fewer components and it
> is simpler.  The disadvantage is with cruise control and down hill and
> then up hill.  For in town cruise control, it works OK.  The brake
> depress method solves the down hill/up hill problem; however, you do not
> get as much regen capacity because at some point the mechanical brake
> must be enabled.  Added to the complication is the sequence of firing or
> 

Re: [EVDL] Smart cruise control

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I think a smart cruise control would be nice but I have not seen it yet.  If 
there was a system that would allow you to say gain 15 to 20 kph (mph?) on down 
slopes and then not engage again until you dropped to say minus 5 kph on the 
upslope that might emulate what drivers do when they hyper-mile.

I do wonder about your statement that using cruise control is always less 
efficient.  On my smart car it will not toggle between using power and 
generating power if the grade is such that it can coast.  There is no mode 
where regen is actually using power, it may not be much but regen always adds 
electrons back to the battery.  In hilly terrain where you can coast over the 
speed limit down and use the momentum to climb back that would preclude using 
the cruise control but that seems to be a driver decision and not a ‘cost’ of 
using it.

Lawrence

> On Feb 27, 2017, at 12:51, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> Is there such a thing as a smart cruise control?  That is a cruise control 
> that will adjust to terrain and draw no more than a set amount of energy.  So 
> pick a starting speed on level ground it will keep that speed until a slight 
> grade and then slow to a predecided speed and then keep that speed.  It will 
> then speed up when terrain permits.  Sure you could wedge you foot but I have 
> found that by playing the pedal I can keep up my speed and lessen my energy 
> use.  Sort of playing the ups and downs.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla with auto pilot predicts accident.

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I accept the term.  I was thinking more of predicting the future but yes given 
the available data it did correctly predict the required response would be to 
slow and stop.

> On Dec 28, 2016, at 03:46, paul dove <dov...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> It very clearly predicted the accident with an audible alarm IMO. Probably 
> sees there relative speeds off of gps in their phones or car NAB systems. I'm 
> amazed what one can learn about traffic with just google maps.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 27, 2016, at 9:54 PM, Lawrence Harris via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I don’t think there was a ‘prediction’ as in the future tense.  The radar 
>> saw the other car(s) start to slow and applied the brakes, I don’t think the 
>> red car even put it’s breaks on.  Also the Tesla driver had sufficient 
>> spacing to react safely.
>> 
>> It’s interesting so speculate what the driver of the red car was doing?  
>> Looks like a classic case of lane weaving, they closed the gap on the SUV to 
>> get around the car in the right lane and then saw the tail lights come on 
>> and decided continue and jump lanes rather than braking.  Unfortunately the 
>> SUV slowed too fast and they were probably distracted checking to see how 
>> badly they were cutting off the car in the right lane and missed the rapid 
>> speed change.  Classic case of aggressive driving and what self driving cars 
>> will largely prevent.
>> 
>> I was pretty amazed the black car and the van behind both manage to pull off 
>> and stop without hitting the red car or each other.
>> 
>> I’d be pretty ticked off if I was the SUV driver and saw this video.
>> 
>> Lawrence
>> 
>>> On Dec 27, 2016, at 18:30, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I thought it was amazing that the software predicted the accident of 
>>> another auto.  Lawrence RhodesHans Noordsij on Twitter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> |  
>>> |   
>>> |   
>>> |   ||
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> |  
>>> ||  
>>> Hans Noordsij on Twitter
>>> “@elonmusk Finally the right one. https://t.co/2fspGMUoWf”  |   |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> https://twitter.com/HansNoordsij/status/813806622023761920
>>> -- next part --
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>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla with auto pilot predicts accident.

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I don’t think there was a ‘prediction’ as in the future tense.  The radar saw 
the other car(s) start to slow and applied the brakes, I don’t think the red 
car even put it’s breaks on.  Also the Tesla driver had sufficient spacing to 
react safely.

It’s interesting so speculate what the driver of the red car was doing?  Looks 
like a classic case of lane weaving, they closed the gap on the SUV to get 
around the car in the right lane and then saw the tail lights come on and 
decided continue and jump lanes rather than braking.  Unfortunately the SUV 
slowed too fast and they were probably distracted checking to see how badly 
they were cutting off the car in the right lane and missed the rapid speed 
change.  Classic case of aggressive driving and what self driving cars will 
largely prevent.

I was pretty amazed the black car and the van behind both manage to pull off 
and stop without hitting the red car or each other.

I’d be pretty ticked off if I was the SUV driver and saw this video.

Lawrence

> On Dec 27, 2016, at 18:30, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> I thought it was amazing that the software predicted the accident of another 
> auto.  Lawrence RhodesHans Noordsij on Twitter
> 
> 
> |  
> |   
> |   
> |   ||
> 
>   |
> 
>  |
> |  
> ||  
> Hans Noordsij on Twitter
> “@elonmusk Finally the right one. https://t.co/2fspGMUoWf”  |   |
> 
>  |
> 
>  |
> 
> https://twitter.com/HansNoordsij/status/813806622023761920
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Re: [EVDL] Shorted FB1-4001A DC motor?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I would tow it home then open the brush box and flush it with clean water and 
check for foreign objects.

Maybe someone who has done it can comment but I would use a smallish 12v 
battery to spin up the motor unloaded and see what happens.  I believe DC motor 
controllers often fail shorted so that would also explain the fuse blowing and 
might be an easier fix/replacement.  A little salt slush in the motor 
controller is a more likely cause of catastrophic failure than the motor itself.

Wear goggles and gloves when playing with the motor and battery, flying molten 
metal and/or popping batteries have been known to cause sudden loss of vision.

Lawrence


> On Dec 27, 2016, at 14:55, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 27 Dec 2016 at 16:41, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> 
>> I used a 18 ga lamp cord in place of the fuse and tried to spin the 
>> motor in neutral.
> 
> Try a larger wire.  Remember that 1400+ amp starting surge.  
> 
> You might also try "pre-spinning" the motor to reduce the starting surge.
> 
> I wouldn't give up on that motor so easily.  I'm not a motor expert, and 
> someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen, big EV 
> motors seldom if ever fail dead shorted.  
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
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Re: [EVDL] Selling an EV on EBay

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Yup, sounds like a scam so if you want to proceed first make sure the cheque 
clears before you ship.  The typical additional part is they send a cheque for 
more than the amount saying the extra is for shipping or some such and ask that 
you refund them the difference, by cheque or money order.  Unfortunately often 
the cheque is drawn on a stolen account that the owner may not realize has been 
compromised so it can clear and appear good for sometimes a long time before 
the money is suddenly reversed and you are left dangling.  I worked this scam 
with a friend who was selling a wheel chair on craigslist and the guy sent a 
cheque for more than the value, wanted the chair sent to a third party along 
with the difference after shipping costs.  A couple of phone calls and it was 
obvious that it was  a scam.  We reported it to the police gave them the cheque 
and led the guy on for a bit before we stopped the communications.  Never did 
find out what the resolution was.

So be careful.

Lawrence

> On Nov 21, 2016, at 07:02, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> There are some red flags that you are often warned about, such as using
> a check or money order from abroad that appears legit on first sight,
> but two or 3 weeks later your bank calls that the piece of paper is
> worthless.
> The most often occurring form of that scam was that they sent you a too
> large payment, to cover the cost of shipment and honest sellers would
> send the buyers a personal check or cash for the overage. So, after all
> was said and done, they were out of their car, and shipping costs and
> whatever cash or check they sent to the buyer, only left with a
> worthless piece of paper.
> So, if the type of payment you receive is not a guaranteed type of
> payment (please ask your bank to confirm!) then you must wait a
> *loong* time before even shipping your vehicle!
> 
> That said, it is possible that a (foreign?) buyer absolutely wants to
> have a nice looking Ghia and then 3 grand is a bargain, EV or not. So,
> it is possible that it simply is someone with more money than
> realization of what an EV is, he simply wants a nice looking car and
> someone will take care that it runs
> I hope you find out soon what the intent of the buyer is!
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson via
> EV
> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 5:22 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Selling an EV on EBay
> 
> Hi folks 
> I'm curious if this is normal. I just sold my Ghia evalbum.com/4346 on
> EBay for $3335.  The guy doesn't ask anything about EV operation when
> I've sent a fair amount of info. I just get misspelled notifications
> like the transporters will be soon pick up. Last night I was requested
> to give my pay pal account number which I replied with my email address
> was all he needed to pay or click on the ad to pay by PayPal. Now he
> says he's mailing a bank check instead.  When I call his number I just
> get some breathing and then hung up several times.  He doesn't appear to
> be an EV enthusiast but hopefully the check will be ok. 
> I'm buying a Chevy Spark EV in Maryland Friday to go along with my Leaf.
> 
> Best regards
> Mark in Roanoke Va
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] $52M/yr 'Quiet (Electrified) cars' alert-sound rules by2019/09

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Yes I think the noise makers could be directionally forward.  If sounds were 
standardized in their frequency then sensors could be developed that would 
listen for that noice and alert blind and deaf people / even cyclists to the 
fact there was a car approaching.  You could even code the speed and left / 
right turn signals into the noise so the sensor could tell the person carrying 
it something about the approaching car.

I do think beepers for backing and turning is useful but agree they should be 
able to be silenced at night / maybe after 8pm? or manually or ? at least for 
non commercial vehicles.  

> On Nov 15, 2016, at 12:56, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Thos,
> Yep, early Leafs have noise maker that can be canceled (but just like the 
> communication warning, returns after the next time starting).
> I believe this was so that the vehicle can be sold in countries where a noise 
> maker is allowed (or required) but needs to be muted at night.
> 
> The blind person argument you describe is set in dead silence, the city 
> street situation is set in a surrounding with a lot of other noises masking 
> the quiet sound of slow rolling tires.
> There are plenty reports about this and while it is possible for an attentive 
> person in a quiet street to hear all traffic approaching (I actually rely on 
> this when I am riding my bike) it is not possible to depend on this in 
> noisier environments and that is where the noise maker comes in.
> Note that the noise maker is not making a lot of noise, it is not your 
> neighborhood jacked pickup truck that everybody recognises from waking them 
> while they sleep, it is just a small hiss as if the tire has a leak. It does 
> not penetrate a wall, unlike the sound of a straight pipe.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95O14kUgmBI
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Thos True via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 7:14 AM
> To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] $52M/yr 'Quiet (Electrified) cars' alert-sound rules 
> by2019/09
> 
> As I recall, the 2011 Nissan Leaf that we had made a Jetson spaceship type
> of sound at low speeds. Not very loud or obnoxious, but definitely not
> sound that was produced by the drive train. I asked the dealership about
> it, and was told that it was a voluntary action in a proactive effort by
> Nissan, expecting such requirements at some point in the future.
> By the way, I find the blind argument offensive...I grew up with 2 blind
> friends. They could tell you how fast a bicycle was approaching, let alone
> a car just from the tire noise...It is the pedestrian blinded by
> electronics technology that we need to concern ourselves with!
> 
> -TT
> 
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 7:00 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> While there are obvious virtues to have EVs emit sounds, and I will not
>> oppose the effort, what can we do to ensure the sounds are quiet enough and
>> pleasant?
>> 
>> I imagine with horror a city full of cars emitting 1khz square wave beeps,
>> like so many commercial trucks and construction equipment. I can barely
>> tolerate hearing those. Add to that and I will go crazy. I'm sure I'm not
>> alone.
>> 
>> Now, I don't expect the rulings to call for something that obnoxious. But
>> still, without some pushback, we may increase the amount of noise from our
>> current levels. That would be bad, in my opinion.
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 15-Nov-16 4:27:39 AM
>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161115
>> 
>> 
>> The US government on Monday completed long-delayed rules that will require
>> "quiet cars" like electric vehicles and hybrids to emit alert sounds at
>> speeds of up to 18.6 miles per hour (30 km/h) to help prevent injuries
>> among pedestrians, cyclists and the blind.
>> 
>> The rules, which were required by Congress, will require car makers like
>> Tesla, Nissan and Toyota to add alert sounds to all vehicles by September
>> 2019.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
>>> com/EVLN-Acentra-trim-based-Leaf-Black-Edition-gt-Limited-
>>> eu-availability-Mar-Aug-2017-td4684475.html
>>> EVLN: Acentra trim based Leaf Black Edition> Limited.eu availability
>>> 

Re: [EVDL] $52M/yr 'Quiet (Electrified) cars' alert-sound rules by 2019/09

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Thanks, just submitted my comments to the hotline.  Maybe they will add them to 
whatever committee looks at drafting this.

Lawrence

> On Nov 15, 2016, at 10:56, tomw via EV  wrote:
> 
> http://www.nhtsa.gov/About-NHTSA/NHTSA-Contact-Information
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/52M-yr-Quiet-Electrified-cars-alert-sound-rules-by-2019-09-tp4684467p4684487.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] $52M/yr 'Quiet (Electrified) cars' alert-sound rules by 2019/09

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Well I agree that until pedestrians don’t have the right of way _period_ we 
need to deal with this.  The approach of having a noise emitted at low speed is 
really not a big deal, most of the time it’s inaudible inside the car.  I think 
a turbine whine at low speed and maybe even a beep beep when the turn signal is 
on or the wheel is turned beyond a certain point would be just good.  People do 
get distracted for lots of reasons; kids fighting is a good one, that having 
some ancillary noise would be useful.  What we could do is lobby to ensure like 
backup beepers this is put into all cars, we all know that modern gas cars can 
be exceedingly quiet as well.

Lawrence

> On Nov 15, 2016, at 08:37, Rush Dougherty via EV  wrote:
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Thos True via EV
>> It is the pedestrian blinded by electronics technology that we need to 
>> concern 
>> ourselves with!
> 
> I couldn't agree with you more, how many times do we hear of or see utube 
> videos 
> of somebody so engrossed in their phone conversation or playing their game or 
> looking at fb on their phone that they walk into fountains, enter 
> intersections, 
> fall into holes totally oblivious to what is in front of them.
> 
> Not having a 'noise' that is like a 'car' is such BS in my opinion, it is 
> just a 
> way to force EV's into the gasser mentality. I was taught to look both ways 
> before 
> crossing, I used to live in NYC where I jaywalked all the time and never got 
> hit. 
> Is there a statistical  analysis that shows who gets hit where? Or is all 
> this 'we 
> must have a sound' just anecdotal? Is there an actual study that says that 
> people 
> are likely to get run over by a car with no sound when they just cross 
> without 
> paying any attention to the roadway? Or is all just conjecture.
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I think that in general a 120v 20A receptacle at each parking stall would do 
most drivers in an office tower - we have at least one in Vancouver here.  In a 
mall or other shorter term parking situation a small set of full J1772 L2 
chargers is probably the best solution.

Lawrence
 
> On Nov 8, 2016, at 15:56, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
> 
> Again I must correct myself.  I looked back at the J1772 standard and some 
> past work that I did.  An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave.  The duty cycle of 
> this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE can 
> supply (rated current).  The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a 
> current greater than the EVSE rating.  All lower amperage adapters must limit 
> this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter.  As an example.  If the EVSE is 
> rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the adapter must 
> adjust the duty cycle.  It is possible to design a 20A adapter with a switch 
> and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle from the EVSE.  This would 
> be an unsafe adapter design.  These type adapter do exist.  You are correct 
> in stating that no car manufacturer would use this type of design.
> 
> 
> As happens many times, the discussion in a forum can get side tracked.  The 
> original discussion (I had to look at previous emails) was concerning a large 
> NEMA plug system vs a large EVSE system for a parking area.  I commented that 
> a NEMA system would works; however, it had some issues.  One of the issues 
> was unsafe adapters usage and another was how does a vehicle with a J1772 
> connector know the rating of the NEMA plug.  I still stand by these two 
> issues.  Unsafe adapters do exist and there is no way of preventing a person 
> from using one in an un-monitored parking area. In addition, the vehicle 
> cannot know the rating of the NEMA receptacle.  The adapter can tell the 
> vehicle the rating of the adapter but not the rating of the NEMA receptacle.
> 
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of ROBERT via EV 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 2:24 PM
> To: Roger Stockton; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn 
> Production
> 
> How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and how 
> many are UL listed?  In addition, how many of these adapters come with a list 
> of vehicles for which they have been tested and certificated by the UL or the 
> manufacturer?  In addition, I know of companies that are selling adapters 
> that do not issue a pilot signal (square wave).  The adapters only have a 
> switch that show that a vehicle is connected.  I guess I should not have 
> stated "they are not safe to use".  I should have stated that these adapters 
> have not been shown to be as safe as the J1772 connectors installed by the 
> vehicle manufacturers.
> 
> 
> Some car manufacturers like Tesla sell adapters. However, these adapters 
> should not be used with other vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:26 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn 
> Production
> 
> ROBERT via EV wrote:
> 
>> (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA
>> outlet?
> 
> The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot 
> signal how much AC current may be drawn.  A 120V J1772 cord will almost 
> certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to 
> use on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet.  I believe that some aftermarket cords may 
> be available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure 
> the cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with 
> this capability.
> 
>> One can buy a J1772 to NEMA
>> adapter; however, they are not safe to use.  All these adapters "fake out"
>> the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations.  It would not
>> surprise me to see these adapters outlawed.
> 
> I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of.  As far as I know, 
> every OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or 
> offers a 120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord.  This cord *is* a proper J1772 
> EVSE and not only provides an appropriate pilot signal to the vehicle, but 
> also does not energise the charging plug until it senses that it is mated 
> with a J1772 receptacle.
> 
> I can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can 
> possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA extension cord between the 
> outlet and a charger on the vehicle.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> 

Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: (NOT)

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

This is exactly how one of the buildings in downtown Vancouver is wired.
Every stall on the main floor (I didn’t look at the other floors) had a 120v
20A plug.  Just park and plug in.

Lawrence

> On Nov 7, 2016, at 05:45, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> All of which is why simple 120v L1 outlets or cords wins hands down in any
> all-day workplace parking lot.
> 1) Wiring is only 15 amps per car instead of 50,
> 2) Load is constant all day (eliminates demand charges on the owner
> 3) Cost to install a $15 outlet is trivial compared to an EVSE
> 4) No security issues
> 5) No billing system required (pay by the month for the privilege)
> 6) No way to game the system.  No employer risk
> 7) No complex control system that can fail
> 7) NO maintenance (no complex evse at eash spot)
> 8) Can split some of the load between AM and PM timed spaces for those
> with 20 mile commutes
> 9) No need for commuters to play musical cars in the parking lot all day
> long to share expensve EVSE.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 10:15 PM
> To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV's In
> Production
> 
> Lee, I was making the following points in my e-mail concerning the
> installation of a large number of EVSEs in a parking area:
> 
> 
> (1) The installation will be very expensive because of the size of the
> required electrical distribution system
> 
> (2) Maintenance will be expensive because of the large number of EVSEs and
> equipment failure rates
> 
> (3) The system will have a low utilization rate because vehicle will be
> parked for an extended periods
> 
> (4) System security is low because of scammers and no local oversight
> 
> (5) Not a safe system because of a possible pool of water or vandalism.
> 
> (6) The cost of an EVSE is small relative to the cost of the system;
> therefore, a lower cost intelligent outlet will have a minor impact on the
> total system cost.
> 
> 
> Due to the above points, the installation of a large number of EVSEs in a
> parking area (1) is not an efficient use of equipment, (2) has low system
> security, (3) unsafe system and (4) is not a good use of capital.
> 
> 
> My suggestion to solve the problem was for everyone to charge at home with
> a NEMA type outlet or use an induction type system in a parking area.
> 
> 
> An induction type system reduces the installation cost because of a
> reduction in the size of the electrical distribution system.  With an
> induction coupled system, the main source can sense the presence of a
> vehicle or if a vehicle requires power; therefore, the main source can be
> sized to the utilization rate.  The main source can alternate between
> vehicles.  This cannot be done with an EVSE system.  The NEC requires that
> the service required for each EVSE be sized at full load.  See Perl
> Hartman e-mail describing a 100 plug L2 system.  It required 2000A at
> 120VAC.  With a 20% utilization rate, the induction system would only
> require 400A at 120VAC.  Maintenance cost would be lower because the
> system consist of a main power source, distribution panel, and numerous
> coils of wire.  The system is safer because it is not effected by water
> and is secure from vandalism.
> 
> 
> Other technical points:
> 
> An X10 system (PowerLine Transmission) will not work in an industrial or
> commercial environment because of signal attenuation, electrical noise,
> transmission across transformers, and low data transmission rate.  RF is
> not reliable in a structure with high levels of electrical noise or a lot
> of rebar (steel) and concrete.  Cell phones and radios do not work
> reliably in underground or high rise parking garages or some houses.  In
> my house, I cannot use a wireless modem.  My house has to much rebar,
> concrete, and earth.
> 
> 
> I looked at the nameplate on the Magne Charger that I have in my workshop.
> It showed: Charge Port CP7100, 475VAC Peak, 22A AC Max, 400 Hz, 6.5 KW Max
> Output Power, Manf Date July 1996.  Also, it showed the manufacturer as
> Delso Electronics Power Control Systems.  This is the unit that is
> installed in the car.  I could not find the nameplate data on the pedestal
> unit with the paddle.  If you have any electrical schematics or other info
> on these units, I would be interested.  Thanks Bob Hensley.
> 
> 
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV
> 
> Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 9:59 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV's In
> Production
> 
> ROBERT via EV wrote:
>> An EVSE requires an AC cable and data cable. An intelligent outlet
>> would still require the same two cables. In addition, a specialty
>> intelligent outlet would cost $100 - $200 (guesstimate).
> 

Re: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I does read like he is fishing for work.  With no background data listed and to 
my mind obvious misleading statements.  There is also no mechanism on the part 
of the site to allow for comments on any article so one can only assume this is 
a essentially a fluff piece by the editorial department.

The only statement that is probably based on fact is he statement of the 
increased risk to pedestrians.  While it’s not really and issue of electric 
cars as such it does relate to the quietness of most modern cars.  I did find a 
IHS FAQ from April 2016 that suggested the hybrid and by extension electric 
cars pose a 39% increased risk of injury and low speed and 66% increased risk 
at very low speeds.  The recommendation was for ‘quiet’ car to have an 
artificial noise emitted when operating (presumably at these low speeds).  [ 
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pedestrians-and-bicyclists/qanda 
 ].

It also suggests that pedestrian are more likely to be at fault in accidents by 
various margins depending on the state, source of the data and the study.

My take away is that Insurance Companies ought to be funding road safety in 
schools and driver education, not just raising premiums.

For the now it suggests everyone needs to be aware of their environment and to 
keep their eye and ears open when operating in areas where cars and pedestrians 
interact.  I know as a driver it can be very hard to watch three, or even four 
directions at once trying to anticipate whose going to run a yellow, when the 
pedestrian crossing indicator will come on, will the pedestrian wait for the 
light, is there a bike sneaking up the curb, etc. etc.  It’s a wonder sometime 
there are not more accidents.  I was taught to ensure I look a driver in the 
eye before crossing the road - not chatting to friends, listening to music or 
reading my email and to never assume I have the right of way even if I do.

Lawrence
 
> On Oct 30, 2016, at 05:37, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> The have to pass the same crash tests of any vehicle. If it was hazardous 
> they would have found it by now.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 29, 2016, at 10:59 PM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> % Normally, I seek out only the positive EV news item for posting. But
>> sometimes I find what seems like an anti-EV release that might shed some
>> light on other points concerning EVs. I ask that for those interested, bring
>> up the URL (below) on your own (I did not want to post all their
>> mis-information as that only perpetuates their incorrect statements). I did
>> put a few of the key points you should examine (see below).
>> 
>> - ? Am I right in thinking the purpose of this Eng's statements, are to
>> promote his company's agenda ? If so, then this is not necessarily a
>> Koch-Bros funded anti-EV/misinformation  smear, but one that is intent on
>> helping drive business to that company ... (am I right?)
>> 
>> - Releases like this being sent out to Insurance companies will certainly
>> keep them from wanting to 'take a risk' on EVs, once they have read all the
>> overblown hype from the writer (his writing leans heavily on an 'EV sky is
>> falling' attitude) %
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.canadianautoworld.ca/industry-news/electric-vehicles-and-the-unique-risks-insurers-need-to-consider
>> Electric vehicles and the unique risks insurers need to consider
>> October 17, 2016  Chris K. Panasiewicz
>> 
>> ... Insurance companies need to consider the major risks of insuring these
>> lightweight, electric vehicles and ensure that premiums reflect the
>> potential risks associated with insuring them.
>> 
>> ... [EV] risk of injury can be higher and repairs and replacement parts can
>> be very costly. Here are some of the lesser-known concerns associated with
>> owning and driving electric vehicles.
>> 
>> Thermal Runaway ...
>> 
>> Fire on Impact ...
>> 
>> Constantly ‘Running’ ...
>> 
>> Proper Maintenance of Charging Stations ...
>> 
>> Risk of Collision Injuries ...
>> 
>> Risk to Pedestrians ...
>> 
>> ... electric vehicles posing twice the degree of accident and injury risk
>> when stopping, starting, slowing down, backing up, and entering or exiting
>> driveways ...
>> 
>> Battery Disposal Cost ...
>> 
>> Insurance companies need to be aware of the differences between gas-powered
>> and electric vehicles, and consider the different risks associated with
>> insuring them ...
>> 
>> Chris K. Panasiewicz, M.Sc., P.Eng., CFEI, is a consulting forensic engineer
>> who specializes in fire and explosions investigations and electrical
>> engineering. He is qualified as an expert witness in the Ontario Superior
>> Court of Justice and has investigated over 300 forensic incidents to date.
>> He has over 10 years of fire and explosions experience ...
>> [© 2016 Metroland Media Group]
>> ...
>> https://ca.linkedin.com/in/chris-panasiewicz-5aa48092
>> Chris 

Re: [EVDL] Thanks for the Smart ED, iMiEV and Leaf Info

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Yes, the warrantee is 4 years with no special mention of the HV battery.  I 
have had no issues to date and the two closest MB dealers both service the car 
no questions asked.  I have not asked the cost of a replacement battery but 
there is apparently a Gen II and Gen III and one blog post commented the Gen 
II’s were hand assembled and the cost was ridiculous, the 2013 is a Gen III.  
They noted in the US the MSRP on the Gen III’s was reduced by about $5000 if 
you leased the battery so they figured that’s roughly what the replacement 
would cost would be and is about 6 years of rental at $80/month.  I’ll have to 
ask the next time it’s in for service though I do hope mine will last at least 
10 years.  Maybe I should be putting $80/month away for that day. 

Lawrence

> On Oct 26, 2016, at 18:46, Mark Hanson  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Lawrence
> That's good to know.  So you have the 4 year 50k mile warranty I assume.  
> That's good you can use the standard Obd2 reader.  I have to get something 
> special for the Leaf.  I'd feel more comfortable if I could get a shop manual 
> since the local Mercedes dealer said they refuse to work on the Smart cars 
> want the higher profit margin of the pricey Mercedes line.  I'm also 
> concerned that you can't get a battery for a reasonable price quoted $29k 
> from the parts dept in Winston Salem NC and Germantown Md so you'd have to 
> throw the car away after 50k miles of the battery poops out.  I also couldn't 
> find individual cells on the net like the Leaf to repair a pack. 
> Best regards
> Msrk
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 26, 2016, at 7:46 PM, Lawrence Harris  wrote:
>> 
>> As far as I know there is no option to rent the battery in Canada so no I 
>> don’t pay monthly.  I have not tried to read the fault codes or such, it’s 
>> on my list of todo’s someday but it’s a standard ODB2 connector so basic 
>> code reading is not a problem, i have had codes read on my old smart car by 
>> third parties no problem.  Monitoring the battery would be a useful option, 
>> I have not deeply investigated that yet.  Once I get an ODB2 reader I’ll 
>> probably see what I can find out.  Most of the other data for basic kw/km 
>> etc is on the dash display so I have not really felt the need to read the 
>> low lever data.  I really like the leaf spy but don’t immediately see 
>> something similar for other cars.  I bought it new in Dec 2013.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Lawrence
>> 
>>> On Oct 26, 2016, at 13:54, Mark Hanson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks Lawrence 
>>> Do you have to pay $80 per month for battery rental?   Or did you pay more 
>>> to own the battery?  Can you read the individual cell voltages?  Can you 
>>> read the fault codes through the Obd connector or do you need a special 
>>> reader?  Did you buy it used or new?
>>> Best regards
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 26, 2016, at 1:55 PM, Lawrence Harris  wrote:
 
 Just to add my own view here.  I have had a smartED 2013 for three years 
 and it’s been a great car.  I drive it pretty much daily and it’s been a 
 dream to drive, fast and agile, tons of space to carry stuff.  Basically 
 perfectly suited to city driving.  As for service my local MB dealer has 
 been good and the basic service costs are very much on par with anything I 
 have ever owned (mainly Nissan’s) except they are overall cheaper than my 
 gas cars without all the parts that need to be replaced and oil changes 
 etc.  I too would like to own the service manuals but in reality I won’t 
 ever be digging that deeply into self service.  I gave that up many years 
 back when the cars became mostly electronically controlled.  The mechanics 
 I can get serviced anywhere as the base car is the same as the gas and 
 diesel versions.  After three years my battery seems to holding up just 
 fine, my range is the same or even slightly more than when I bought it - 
 might be just the estimator learning my driving style.
 
 That said, if I had kids I would have probably bought a leaf at the time 
 and today I would consider the iMev or the KEA Soul EV which looks really 
 nice if I need a bigger car any time soon.   For now I am waiting for the 
 400+ km car with fast charger for my next one.
 
 As for conversions I did look into this some years back when I had my 
 diesel smart but for many reasons including cost and performance it just 
 didn’t seem like a good option.  I think with all the good EV’s on the 
 market today the only vehicle worth converting would be a truck as there 
 is nothing yet in that category though I expect that too will change 
 fairly soon.
 
 Lawrence
 
> On Oct 25, 2016, at 18:24, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Cor, Dave etc for the thoughtful Smart, iMiEV and Leaf 

Re: [EVDL] Thanks for the Smart ED, iMiEV and Leaf Info

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Just to add my own view here.  I have had a smartED 2013 for three years and 
it’s been a great car.  I drive it pretty much daily and it’s been a dream to 
drive, fast and agile, tons of space to carry stuff.  Basically perfectly 
suited to city driving.  As for service my local MB dealer has been good and 
the basic service costs are very much on par with anything I have ever owned 
(mainly Nissan’s) except they are overall cheaper than my gas cars without all 
the parts that need to be replaced and oil changes etc.  I too would like to 
own the service manuals but in reality I won’t ever be digging that deeply into 
self service.  I gave that up many years back when the cars became mostly 
electronically controlled.  The mechanics I can get serviced anywhere as the 
base car is the same as the gas and diesel versions.  After three years my 
battery seems to holding up just fine, my range is the same or even slightly 
more than when I bought it - might be just the estimator learning my driving 
style.

That said, if I had kids I would have probably bought a leaf at the time and 
today I would consider the iMev or the KEA Soul EV which looks really nice if I 
need a bigger car any time soon.   For now I am waiting for the 400+ km car 
with fast charger for my next one.

As for conversions I did look into this some years back when I had my diesel 
smart but for many reasons including cost and performance it just didn’t seem 
like a good option.  I think with all the good EV’s on the market today the 
only vehicle worth converting would be a truck as there is nothing yet in that 
category though I expect that too will change fairly soon.

Lawrence

> On Oct 25, 2016, at 18:24, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Cor, Dave etc for the thoughtful Smart, iMiEV and Leaf info.  
> 
> 
> 
> Since I already have a Leaf (like it very much but my son latched onto it
> and would like a smaller commuter car) when I replace my Karmann Ghia EV
> next month I'll probably buy a iMiEV since I see online service manuals
> available, individual battery monitoring and the same 100K 8 year battery
> warranty like the Leaf has (also saw a few Chevy Spark compliance cars but
> little support).  It looks like according to www.batteryuniversity.com that
> both vehicles(Leaf & iMiEV) use the NMC nickel- manganese- cobalt cathode
> with lithium substrate and carbon anode by LG Chem? I think the 2016 Smart
> will too.  So the iMiEV should have similar life and both air cooled not
> complicated water cooled like the Smart ED.  I drove a Smart ED and really
> liked the car but if I can't service it (or get it serviced for a reasonable
> price) then it's a no-go.  I wish Swatch kept it or sold through another
> company other than Mercedes Benz (most MB wheeler-dealers hate the car - low
> profits), rather sell $70K foo-foo Mercedes (like the dealer here in
> Roanoke, VA).  I'd take the Smart (convert) plunge if someone made a motor
> adapter and had a manual transmission but the one's I've seen (ICE) have a
> crappy auto tranny.  I saw an 05' conversion on www.evalbum.com but looks
> like he spent considerable time and money on it (like my conversion $25K).
> I'm looking at a iMiEV 2014 5K miles for $9K ...  Still hard to sell my
> conversion - since it'll probably be the last car I'll convert, doesn't make
> sense to convert anymore though.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> Hi folks (original message)
> 
> I was wondering if it makes sense to convert a Smart Car and does anyone
> know of a good conversion kit?  The problem with the Smart ED as I was
> looking at a used 2014 is they want a $80 monthly battery rental fee for ten
> years or $9600 on top of the car price. Also there is *no* service manual
> available from Mercedes.  I called several Smart dealers and they said their
> service department can't even get a service manual.  Also I can't find any
> way to monitor the individual cells like my Leaf or iMiev   And If you buy
> the battery for an additional $5k the warranty is only 4 years and 50k
> miles. Battery replacement cost is $29k verified at several dealers.  The
> Leaf and iMiev are 100k 8 year warranty and the Leaf is $5.5k to replace and
> the iMiev is about $12k a dealer said.  I'm thinking of selling my Ghia
> www.evalbum.com/4346 and buying a used iMiev or Smart ED. I already have a
> Leaf that my son drives mostly and both EVs are charged from the sun. 
> 
> Have a renewable energy day
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 3
> 
> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 14:08:47 -0700
> 
> From: Cor van de Water via EV 
> 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smart Car Conversion Kits?
> 
> Message-ID:
> 
>  

Re: [EVDL] Cut-EVSE-cord-vandalism (pull-out cord)

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

In essence that’s what you get.  It’s a little bulky but most cars come with
the EVSE for 110v/12amp and a standard wall plug so you can charge
most anywhere there is a plug.  The issue is with the higher power EVSE’s
that need the feedback circuit to determine how much current the car is
going to be allowed to draw.  However that does not preclude putting the
cable and J1772 plug on the car and the socket on the EVSE which would
have made a lot of sense but might be hard to change now.  I think in
Europe the Mennekes charger standard works that way though I am having
trouble finding a  specific reference.

Lawrence

> On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:08, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> Eventually, a car MFR will wake up to the fact that he can put the entire
> EVSE on the car and have a simple #14 pull-out extension cord (lieka
> vacuum cleaner) that can plug into ANY standard 120v 15 am outlet.
> 
> Then we will truly meet the valuie promise of the EV... thatis, charge
> anywhere and everywhere from the 200,000,000 standard oiutlets in every
> hhome in America...  For those in apartments.. it is a bit more
> complicated...  But why not make it simple for the 200,000,000 of us that
> have an outlet?
> 
> The j1772 is needed only for L2 where there is not a standard, ubiquitous
> GFCI protected outleteverywhere.  But where there is a standard 120v
> outlet, why don't we make a commuter EV with that standard pull-out plug
> option.
> 
> Bob
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:24 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cut-EVSE-cord-vandalism (not copper-thieves)
> Greenfield-MA
> 
> David,
> You are describing the European charging stations that have a Mennekes
> connector on the pedestal and every EV comes with the charging cord that
> plugs into that Mennekes connector and into the EV.
> Only the US situation is that the cord is attached to the station.
> Apparently that is not always beneficial.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:20 AM
> To: brucedp5 via EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cut-EVSE-cord-vandalism (not copper-thieves)
> Greenfield-MA
> 
> I know it would be more inconvenient but why doesn't every EV have their
> own J1772 extension cord and the EVSE just have a socket like on the
> vehicle? This way no cord is left at the charge station and every car can
> lock the cord to the car. When a car is done charging another vehicle can
> plug in and leave the first car's cord on the ground with the protective
> cap on.
> 
> David D. Nelson
> 
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> 
> From: brucedp5 via EV
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

According to 
https://seriousaccidents.com/legal-advice/top-causes-of-car-accidents/ the #1 
reason for an accident is distracted driving.

In this case that would seem to be the cause.  It is certainly clear that the 
technology involved might have increased the chance that the driver felt they 
didn’t need to constantly watch the road but never the less the actual cause 
was probably not watching where they were going and reacting appropriately.  I 
would like Tesla and others to continue to work on the safety aspects of the 
vehicle systems to help prevent more of these sort of incidents and it’s clear 
in other videos that the collision avoidance system do in fact work, just not 
100% of the time.

Examples where it worked:

http://bgr.com/2016/04/10/watch-teslas-autopilot-feature-prevent-an-accident-with-a-merging-truck/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X-5fKzmy38

So I don’t know, maybe we aren’t ready for fully autonomous but the sort of 
things that autopilot does are quite useful.  Maybe have the car sense if you 
are not looking forward and/or take your hands off the wheel and beep - sort of 
like the snooze waring some long haul truckers use, but let’s not dismiss the 
technology out of hand.

Lawrence

> On Jul 27, 2016, at 12:05, Collin Kidder via EV  wrote:
> 
> I agree, people can be dangerous. If we could figure out the software
> I think self driving cars could be really safe. And, they'd be faster
> too because the road could be run with very little gap between cars so
> long as all of the cars are communicating and the cars are self
> driving. But, being a software developer, the failures terrify me. I'm
> too familiar with the way software is written and how buggy it tends
> to be to be all that comfortable in a 70MPH 3500lb missile. However,
> I'm already doing that in a drive by wire car. So, I guess it's just a
> matter of perception. But, manufacturers are going to have a lot of
> those perception issues to deal with. I think insurance will be kind
> of tough at first too. If a crash happens who do you blame? What if
> both cars were self driving? Will the automakers have to fight each
> other in court? What if the self driving car mistook your semi for the
> open sky (as just happened in the Tesla fatality)? I'm kind of leery
> of the millions of ways a computer could mistake the video coming in.
> Humans have a very finely tuned visual system and we still get it
> wrong sometimes. But, I don't think nearly anyone would have been
> fooled by the semi truck looks like the sky issue. I could see that it
> was a semi truck if I were driving. Apparently cars can't always.
> Though, I'm sure it'll improve. It's sort of a chicken and egg
> situation. I won't trust a self driving car with my own life until it
> is bulletproof but getting it there requires a lot of on the road
> testing.
> 
>> 
>> I think that once the self driving cars can demonstrate they can avoid more 
>> accidents on the road than the typical human, adoption will be rapid.  
>> Mostly what they would be avoiding would be humans that weren't paying 
>> attention.  Once more humans are removed, the overall safety will increase 
>> again.
>> 
>> We would like to think that all drivers are very careful and fully engaged 
>> in driving, but what I see on a daily basis isn't that.  I think that cars 
>> that are more predictable and can dodge humans are a good thing.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I think that it’s only a matter of time.  The limiting factor is probably 
getting all the non autonomous vehicles off the road or requiring them to add 
transponders so the autonomous cars can be on the lookout for them.  The Tesla 
t-boning the semi is nothing new, if you google about a bit you will find lots 
of cars under semi trailers that did not have any computer controlled 
autonomous functions.  Some because the human driver decided to try to 
autonomously drive under them, some for who knows what reason.  Accidents 
happen and we learn from them.  The airline industry studies each crash and 
then updates safety procedures and issues mandatory updates, inspections and 
repairs as needed why not cars too (cost maybe?)

Heres one where the semi-trailer was parked.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDN-MrptYUc 


Lawrence

> On Jul 26, 2016, at 15:48, Peter C. Thompson via EV  wrote:
> 
> While Peri does have a point, it is extremely pessimistic to say that we will 
> never get to the "good enough" stage.
> 
> There are some very talented software engineers working on this problem.  
> Working in a similar fashion to coding for the space program. When  you have 
> enough talented engineers working on a difficult problem, with enough 
> latitude to fix what needs fixing, you will get the problem solved to the 
> "good enough" stage. Nothing will ever be perfect, and to try to aim for 
> perfect on the first try is to doom your product to failure - because you 
> will never reach the market.
> 
> As an example, remember when Apple tried to outdo Google with their own map 
> program?  Sure, it failed, and in very public ways. However, compare now - 
> they are quite close in reliability. Voice recognition is another area that 
> has rapidly improved - when was the last time Siri didn't understand you?
> 
> There is an engineering axiom:  "Don't let Perfect be the enemy of the Good". 
>  This is nothing new - Confucius said something similar a long time ago.
> 
> There's another old saying:  "Never say never."  :)
> 
> Cheers, Peter
> 
> 
> On 7/26/16 3:32 PM, damon henry via EV wrote:
>> I still say that the majority of American drivers who think they will never 
>> trust an autonomous vehicle will change their minds as soon as the insurance 
>> companies offer them $5 less a month on their auto insurance :)
>> Damon
>> 
>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:15:04 +
>>> To: pe...@kotatko.com; ev@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a 
>>> driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform
>>> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> 
>>> The thing is Peri,
>>> There are so many possibilities while driving how can one ever test 
>>> software enough to know
>>> that you have covered every likely possibility. Even so, when there is a 
>>> crash and I am sitting
>>> in the backseat letting the vehicle drive who is responsible for the 
>>> damage, injuries or possible death?
>>> Tesla leaves the responsibility on the driver and I'm not sure it will ever 
>>> move away from that model.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   From: Peri Hartman via EV 
>>>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 1:09 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a 
>>> driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform
>>>I think the big issue will be dealing with the nature of the crashes.
>>> While we have plenty of accidents and fatalities with human drivers
>>> today, most of the time those humans mitigate the accident by reacting
>>> and doing something. That probably helps, even if the result includes a
>>> fatality (but some survivors). Putting statistics aside for a moment,
>>> consider that you are "helpless" in an autonomous car crash.
>>> 
>>> With autonomous vehicles, I see most failures as being catastrophic.
>>> That is, the software will be completely unaware there is a pending
>>> crash. Of course, it depends on the details of the situation.
>>> Regardless, I think - if enough autonomous car deaths occur - people
>>> will fear the prospect of a catastrophic crash more than they fear being
>>> involved in a mitigated human-controlled crash.
>>> 
>>> In other words, if you are a safe, alert driver, will you be
>>> statistically more likely to die in an autonomous car crash then in one
>>> where you are in control - or vice versa? Overall, I'm quite certain the
>>> statistics will point to the autonomous car being safer. But maybe not
>>> for a small percentage of truly careful drivers.
>>> 
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>> Sent: 26-Jul-16 10:57:17 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a
>>> driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform
>>> 
 Hi Paul,
 No problem - you are free to 

Re: [EVDL] Charger connector options

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I agree, I would not put a J1772 inlet if the there is no charger behind it or 
if the charger can not be make to conform to the J1772 protocols.  That would 
be dangerous, there are many standard 5 conductor plugs that would be usable if 
it’s just to make a single cable coming out of the car.

I was making the assumption (bad bad) that the charger was on board and that it 
might be possible to add the handshake to make it J1772 compatible.

Lawrence

> On May 19, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Whoa.  Using a J1772 with a nonstandard connection could be dangerous.  Maybe 
> I'm being too cautious.  However, sooner or later, someone else could make a 
> mistake and plug in from some other ESVE and create a disaster.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Christopher Darilek via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 19-May-16 10:43:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger connector options
> 
>> Ahhh, I should have added that my charger is a big honkin' off-board 
>> transformer.  I don't want to put in in the car in order to save weight.  
>> But it does look like a J1772 port has 5 conductors.  This might fit the 
>> bill.
>> -Chris
>> 
>>  From: Lawrence Harris 
>> To: Christopher Darilek ; Electric Vehicle 
>> Discussion List 
>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 11:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger connector options
>> 
>> Is your charger 110/220 volt compatible?  Have you considered putting a 
>> J1772 inlet maybe where the gas cap is?  There is some electronics to 
>> install behind it - a relay and a pilot signal.  I suspect the hardware is 
>> for sale somewhere as I see the inlet ports are readily available for about 
>> $90 and then you could use any standard charge cable.
>> 
>> Lawrence
>> 
>>> On May 19, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm ready to upgrade my charger connector.  Right now I'm using NEMA plugs 
>>> on the ends of pig tails under the hood (I have to open my hood 2x a day).  
>>> My charge rate is 18A @100V (reduced to not melt said plugs).  I think I 
>>> need 5 connections:  +100V, battery ground, +12V, chassis ground, and BMS 
>>> output to turn the charger Off.  I'd like for the connector to be 
>>> accessible without opening the hood.  What do ya'll use?  Any ideas?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chrisvintageelectro.blogspot.com
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Charger connector options

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Is your charger 110/220 volt compatible?  Have you considered putting a J1772 
inlet maybe where the gas cap is?  There is some electronics to install behind 
it - a relay and a pilot signal.  I suspect the hardware is for sale somewhere 
as I see the inlet ports are readily available for about $90 and then you could 
use any standard charge cable.

Lawrence

> On May 19, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I'm ready to upgrade my charger connector.  Right now I'm using NEMA plugs on 
> the ends of pig tails under the hood (I have to open my hood 2x a day).  My 
> charge rate is 18A @100V (reduced to not melt said plugs).  I think I need 5 
> connections:  +100V, battery ground, +12V, chassis ground, and BMS output to 
> turn the charger Off.  I'd like for the connector to be accessible without 
> opening the hood.  What do ya'll use?  Any ideas?
> Thanks,
> Chrisvintageelectro.blogspot.com
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Re: [EVDL] Strata (Condos) won’t allow parking space EVSE modifications in bc.ca

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Yes and no.  I have a townhouse form of strata and I have a 120v plug in my 
garage and easy access to my electrical panel so it was not a problem.  The 
issue is almost universally that strata’s don’t like to pay the cost via the 
‘public’ purse for a benefit that is then privately consumed.  With strata 
structured apartment buildings where the parking is disassociated from the 
unit’s the cost of retrofitting an EV plug can be in the thousands of dollars 
for one run iff the buildings transformers and such can take the load.  You get 
into the issue of ok the owner who paid the $10k to get the unit in their 
parking stall, the next owner will need to pay $10k too and the third owner 
will need to pay $100k because the transformer and panel needs to be upgraded.  
 I usually suggest to people they get on the strata council and at the same 
time talk up their neighbours about the positives of an EV before they broach 
the subject with the strata council.  If you are on the council and have 
support from neighbours it can go easier at least in the initial request.  In 
BC.CA here the provincial government just announced a rebate incentive toward 
multi-unit building of $7500/ charger toward installing EV chargers so that 
should help sweeten the discussion as well.

Never the less it is a problem.

Lawrence
 
> On Apr 4, 2016, at 8:20 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> The lesson is, when you "buy" a condo, you don't really own it.  
> 
> Same deal when you lease an EV - it's not really yours, as folks who had 
> EV1s and Honda EV Pluses 20 years ago would ruefully tell you.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Electric Coop magazine article on historic EV

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I don’t think range has ever been the issue, it’s speed and range combined 
that’s hard.

The Detroit Electric was also in that range.  The listed range was 80mi (130km) 
using NiFe batteries.  There was a range ’test’ done where it reached 211mi 
(340km) but at a speed of about 20mi/hr.  There are details on Wikipedia - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Electric 


The wikipedia article on Frichie - 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Parker_Fritchle 
 is also fascinating.  
It says he worked on a hybrid electric after gas cars started to really take 
over.  Based on his patent filing the battery was probably lead acid but I 
don’t see anything that says that.  It does show a hydrometer calibrated to 
show charge instead of specific gravity - neat.

Lawrence

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 3:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Fascinating! I hadn't heard of the Fritchle EV before. 100 miles on a charge 
> was an amazing achievement, especially considering the roads in those days. I 
> wonder if there are any details about his batteries?
> 
> 
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Suitable Load?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Yes but temperature is affected by current which is affected by voltage so in 
some sense instantaneous resistance is a function of voltage.
The instantaneous resistance will be a factor of of the base material, amount 
the resistance changes due to temperature and the current temperature.  The 
current temperature is dependant on the voltage applied and for how long and 
how well the material can radiate heat and how well the environment can conduct 
heat away.

Hence I = V/R is not a very good approximation in this environment.  While it 
may still hold for any given instantaneous moment in time it’s mostly useless 
as predictor when all of I, V and R vary with changes in all three values over 
time.  You are better off to test the circuit and measure what it does.

Lawrence

> On Nov 5, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> I thought the resistance was dependent on temperature, not voltage.   Sure, a 
> higher voltage means it will heat up quicker and increase in resistance 
> quicker.  But initially, at least, for a given voltage, the resistance would 
> be low.  Thus, resistance would not proportional to voltage.  Did I miss 
> something?
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "paul dove via EV" 
> To: "Lee Hart" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: 05-Nov-15 12:53:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Suitable Load?
> 
>> Yes, Ohms law applies in light bulbs.
>> Instead of a linear graph you get a curve because of the changing 
>> resistance.As the voltage increases the current increase becomes smaller and 
>> smaller.Since it is not linear the change in current slows down as the 
>> voltage increases.Still, at low voltage you have low current and at high 
>> voltage you have high current as I said.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  From: Lee Hart 
>> To: Paul Dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>> 
>> Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 11:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Suitable Load?
>> 
>> Paul Dove via EV wrote:
>>> Halogen bulbs are made in general for 6V, 12V, 24V... Using too low
>>> a voltage will produce little current and too high a voltage will
>>> produce high current and overheating of the filament
>> 
>> Actually, light bulbs don't behave like resistors. Ohm's law doesn't
>> apply. :-)
>> 
>> A light bulb's apparent resistance changes drastically with temperature.
>> The cold resistance (measured with an ohmmeter) is easily 1:10th that of
>> its hot resistance (current divided by voltage at full rated voltage).
>> Depending on the type of light, an 8-1 change in voltage only causes
>> about a 2:1 change in current.
>> 
>> This means that light bulbs can be used as crude constant-current loads.
>> The current only changes slightly despite large changes in voltage. This
>> characteristic is ideal for testing batteries, where you'd like the
>> current to stay the same despite changes in cell or battery voltage.
>> --
>> Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
>> violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
>> in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
>> --
>> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

It’s an interesting problem that I believe has a moving target since in
some places you get paid retail for your excess electrons but in other
jurisdictions you get paid a fraction of retail.  The power companies
if they had their way would pay a pittance for your excess and then
sell you back the electrons at retail.

There is some justification for this since they don’t always need
your excess.  Having too much excess power but no control over
when it’s being offered can be a big problem.  If you have a bright
windy day and lots of solar and wind being dumped into the grid
and then get a sudden drop in wind and a cloud rolling overhead
the system will need to have peaking plants on standby to take
over the load.  Idling these plants is expensive, maybe more
so than just suppling the power from traditional sources.

A grid that had distributed power storage and access to several ideally
clean energy sources would end up being the most stable.  If you have
your own battery bank you can keep the lights on during a power failures
for sure but you can also run on your own ‘free’ electrons, sell the excess
to the grid if you have them, buy them back if you need them but maybe
at a lower off peak rate and potentially offer them back at a premium if the
grid asks for them.

This would allow for basically five price points:
$0.00   You don’t need the grid, the grid does not need you.
Here the grid is operating below optimal with room to move up but
not down.

$low-buyYou do need the grid, the grid has excess.
Here the grid is operating below optimal and can efficiently offer
you more electrons.

$high-buy   You do need the grid, the grid is peaking.
Here you have run low and the grid is operating above optimal
and drawing on other, maybe stored sources to make up the difference.

$low-sell   You have excess and the grid has the capacity to accept.
Here you have excess and the grid is operating above optimal and
can save money buy accepting your extra.

$high-sell  You have excess and the grid is peaking so needs extra.
Here you have extra and the grid is peaking and requesting extra
from stored sources, you offer some of your stored energy in
exchange for a higher value.

So in my estimation it is the bi-directional grid tie with with distributed
local storage and net metering is a the win-win situation.

There was a lot of discussion some time back about Vehicle to Grid
(VTG) solutions where electric cars become part of the distributed
storage.  If you integrate vehicles and possibly stationary batteries
you could reach a point where there was enough storage to shut
down some of the dirty generating stations entirely, not just the peaking
plants.

Lawrence


> On Sep 22, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> -Original Message-
>>> That's 1% to 4%.  Better than most banks.  And FAR better for the
>>> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning.
> 
>> I'll bet a cup of coffee that stationary panels going to a set of
> batteries used as a dump pack for the golf cart would still financially
> outperform the roof-mounted option.
> 
> When Can I collect the cup?
> 
> Only if the Golf Cart and dump-pack are FULLY discharged every day.
> Because only then are you using the solar panels.  A solar panel just
> sitting there in the sun connected to a fully charged battery is providing
> ZERO return on investment.
> 
> That is why NET metering is the best economics hands down.  You get 100%
> of the energy all the time, every day, no matter how much you use.
> 
> People forget that battery systems are not only very inefficient, require
> maintenqance, but whenever they are fully charged, then the solar panels
> are providing nothing in return for their investment.  And since battery
> systems have to have oversized solar panels to make up for cloudy days,
> then by definition, every fully sun day, then all the excess solar energy
> beyond full charge is simply wasted.
> 
> My conclusion is that any use of batteries for storing solar energy wastes
> $2 of every $3 invested in the solar system.  Grid-tie wastes none of it.
> You get full retail value for every watt that falls on the panels no
> matter where you use it.
> 
> Bob, WB4APR
> 
> You can use cheaper panels that get maximum insolation, and the only
> concern for the dump pack is total lifetime cost per kWh in and out --
> weight or volume or similar concerns are irrelevant.
> 
> A significant fraction of the electric vehicles on the road are already
> solar powered; EV owners are statistically much more likely to have
> rooftop solar generation than others. Except as a gimmick or an
> engineering challenge or in unreal fringe cases (extraterrestrial
> planetary exploration), carting the panels around with you is the most
> over-the-top wasteful way to get to a "green" car. 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Questions answered> Should you buy an electric bike?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Here in BC I don’t think we have the must peddle requirement.  I see lots of 
scooter
or moped like vehicles that have vestigial pedals mounted far to the back where 
they
are out of the way of your feet.  These are often removed after sale leaving 
basically
and electric scooter.  There are a lot of ‘real’ e-bikes as well but these 
light weight
electric scooters also share the moniker ‘e-bike’ but are physically more like 
a moped.

Lawrence

> On Sep 14, 2015, at 1:29 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 14 Sep 2015 at 14:23, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> 
>> However he glosses over the distinction between an e-bike and a
>> scooter. What is the difference?  I'll state that the difference is
>> that an e-bike requires you to pedal at all times and assists the
>> pedaling so that you get a small percentage multiplier force added to
>> your work. 
> 
> I don't think it's that simple.  My Ezee Quando looks and rides just like a 
> bike.  It has bike pedals, bike brakes, bike wheels, a bike seat.  
> 
> The European Quando version required pedaling, because of EU laws.  Mine 
> doesn't.  Pedaling is 100% optional, though pedaling gets me more range.  
> 
> Still, it is most assuredly NOT a scooter.
> 
>> Why this matters is because, without the distinction, there would be a
>> lot more traffic in bike ways with a lot more speed variability. 
> 
> Have you witnessed frequent problems with this?  I may be mistaken, but I 
> don't think that many e-bikes go radically faster than conventional bikes 
> unless they're user-modified.  Modification is done by a small minority of 
> gear-head owners; even I haven't tried it.  
> 
> One of the intriguing things about e-bikes is how much they really ARE like 
> bikes.  Most are not even really what I'd call mopeds.  They are bikes in 
> every way except that they have electric assist.  I know of no ICE 
> equivalent to an e-bike.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] FW: On the road again.

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Just remember to check each cell periodically to ensure they are staying 
together.  If one cell is weak it will drift down each cycle and eventually you 
will overcharge the good ones and destroy the weak one (this is where fires 
come from).

A little exaggerated perhaps but this is what happens, maybe not exactly cycle 
by cycle but over time.  Your charger is set to chart to 24v and then cut back.

cycle 1: 6 x 4v = 24v
cycle 2: 5 x 4.1 + 3.5v = 24v
cycle 3: 5 x 4.2 + 3.0v = 24v
cycle 4: 5 x 4.3 + 2.5 = 24v
  :

eventually the good ones are being charged over their max values and the weak 
one is being pushed towards zero or negative at the end of each discharge 
cycle.  Now we get heat and overpressure and poof!

Lawrence

 On May 28, 2015, at 10:18 AM, damon henry via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Thanks David...
 for pointing out the forgetfulness factor.  Been there, done that.  There are 
 a couple of fairly simple solutions to that particular problem.  First, a 
 charger that is set at a low enough voltage to limit that danger.  So far it 
 has been my experience with this pack that there is not enough of a voltage 
 rise to set a dumb charger up for this function, but I am considering getting 
 a smart charger that will do constant current to a specific voltage then shut 
 off.  Another easy solution is a mechanical timer.  I have an e-meter on the 
 motorcycle so I know how much energy I have taken out.  That makes it pretty 
 easy to set a timer as a fail-safe.  I think my e-meter may even have an 
 alarm function that I could use to shut the charger off.
 I thought the joke about the tarp was clever :)
 Finally, as Cor pointed out, it is my motorcycle which has the 3.4kwh pack on 
 it now.  Since I have not done lithium before I brought out the old test mule 
 from under the tarp so that if I do learn from the school of hard knocks, as 
 is often the case, I will be well educated before investing in a much more 
 expensive lithium for my truck.  I don't believe I will do the lithium 
 without a BMS, but that is a decision for some future time. 
 I have two normal scenarios.  MWF  - round trip to the gym and back 10 miles 
 - opportunity charge for an hour while I get ready for work then 8 miles to 
 the office where I have the full day to charge if I like.  Then back home 8 
 miles.  The other two days of the week I do not do the gym first, so overall 
 this pack is getting very light duty.  In fact, I think the hardest thing for 
 me to get used to is not fully charging it.  I'm so used to charging as much 
 as I can whenever I can that it is a hard habit to break.  In this case 
 though, why get close to the danger points?  Bad things usually happen to 
 batteries when they are nearing full or empty.  Keeping them away from those 
 danger zones makes a lot of sense.  The most stress I am likely to put on 
 them will be if I go to visit my good friend John Wayland who lives 17 miles 
 of mostly freeway from me.  It's no problem picking up a charge at his house 
 before I head back home, though, so even that should not be too bad. 
 damon
 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 15:52:20 -0400
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] On the road again.
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 On 27 May 2015 at 9:23, damon henry via EV wrote:
 
 After 5 years under the tarp, I put my EV motorcycle back on the road this
 week.  
 
 You must have been awfully bored, living under that tarp for all those 
 years! ;-)
 
 I purchased 16 Calb CA60ah cells which fit well in my existing battery
 boxes.  
 
 So if my math is right, ~3.4 kWh.  That's the equivalent of about four T-125 
 golf car batteries (useful capacity 900Wh each).  I'm thinking this is going 
 to be a short-range truck, and probably short-lived batteries from working 
 so hard.
 
 I do not have any BMS installed, but on such a small pack with good
 access it is easy to be my own BMS 
 
 As long as you don't get busy with something else and forget.  I know of a 
 guy around here who destroyed an entire set of rare and expensive Saft STM5-
 180 NiCd batteries when he forgot he was charging them.
 
 I wouldn't even do an E-bike lithium battery without a BMS.  But that's me, 
 and I know how forgetful I can be!
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
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 Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
 reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
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Re: [EVDL] Fw: Supercharging is not the way.

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Very nice diagram.

I didn’t realize the Volt was a series / parallel hybrid.  It can reconfigure 
to operate in both modes.  Primary mode is as a series hybrid with electric 
only until the battery depletes, then series hybrid for long range causing and 
then if torque requirements are high it will reconfigure and use the smaller 
motor add torque and even the gas motor as additional torque sources.  Complex 
gear box but never the less interesting.  The only thing it says it can’t do is 
run on the gas motor only so there must be a limp mode if you were to drive at 
hight speed too long and deplete the main battery it would need to run in 
series mode and limp along at the maximum the motor generator could provide.

I often see Volts plugged in at the L2 charging station here in Vancouver and 
the drivers I talk to run mostly pure electric.  One member in VEVA bought the 
Volt primarily because he communtes to Seattle on a regular basis.

Lawrence
(smartED driver!)


 On May 14, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Russ Sciville via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Wow, you do like to win an argument Paul. :-)
 
 Where do they disagree with me? Plenty of us cover 50 miles in good weather 
 and even hypermile to 60 although I haven't.
 What I will say is that the power module is a complicated bugger but works. 
 It normally runs on the main motor, then combines with the generator, using 
 it as a motor over 60mph or under hard acceleration to increase available 
 power until the battery reaches low when the gas engine runs and the 
 generator links with it to generate power.At high speeds with the gas engine 
 the engine torque may or may not be linked with the output shaft but that is 
 never very clear.
 At no time does the engine start to assist acceleration when in electric mode.
 This link explains it well and there are youtube video's which are well worth 
 watching.http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA713241015.PDF  
 
 It is the best car I have ever owned and my last gas car was an M3!
 Russ 
 
 From: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net
 To: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk 
 Sent: Thursday, 14 May 2015, 15:46
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
 
 GM seems to disagree with you.
 
   - Farah says that in his mind the Volt is unequivocally an electric car. 
 The Volt is an electric vehicle...because for the first 40 miles you can get 
 full performance running on nothing but an electric motor until the battery 
 is depleted, he said.
   - The Volt has three distinct motive forces in it: a large electric motor, 
 a small electric motor/generator, and a 1.4 liter engine. Up to two of those 
 three forces can be combined in select ways through the Volt's secret sauce 
 drive unit—given the road demands and state of charge of the battery—to drive 
 the vehicle.
   - Only the large electric motor is capable of moving the car forward on its 
 own. The small electric motor/generator and the gas engine can only ever be 
 combined with one of the other motive forces to drive the wheels.
   - Even when the gas engine is on and partially driving the wheels, it 
 cannot operate without electricity flowing to one of the other motors.
   - The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the 
 generator and produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels.
   - There is no direct mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and 
 the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by 
 meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the 
 other two electric motors.
 
 http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 On May 14, 2015, at 6:59 AM, Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 
 
 The electronics only register cell electricity usage in the kWh field and gas 
 use in the other field.I agree though that any use of gas when measuring 
 range could be slightly incorrect as the Volt/Ampera REX is a generator only 
 and starts and stops regularly if driving slowly to ensure that it doesn't 
 put any gas generated power into the cells. The software engineers try 
 extremely hard to only generate energy for the road when the cells are 
 considered empty but are actually topped up and emptied in a continuous 
 process.
 If you check earlier posts you will note that many display electricity only 
 use and are often over 50 miles.
 BTW, these cars were so ahead of their time and are still probably the only 
 PHEV's that are pure electric with gas mode only used when the cells are 
 empty or Hold/Mountain mode is selected.They have huge power off the line 
 and will happily reach and cruise at 100mph (not on a public road) using 
 battery only.
 It is later hybrids like the Outlander that seem to need gas mode to assist 
 the electric motor.
  From: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net
 To: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk 
 Sent: Thursday, 14 

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

The normal verbiage used is average and you are correct (I think) in pointing 
out that if a BEV is to be your only vehicle you might want to look at average 
plus 2 standard deviations which would cover 95% of your travels and leave only 
5% needing to use public transit or a rental vehicle.  In my case I have a 
second vehicle and so use that for extended trips and can live with the average 
plus 1 standard deviation as my range goals.

Lawrence

 On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 
 The assumption of what nearly everyone needs in a day is based on averages, 
 right?
 
 Averages are built from data ranging from minimums to maximums. But real 
 range needs are based on maximums. So it would be erroneous to assume that 
 averages define the actual range needs of most people.
 
 Further, it matters how often people need to hop in the car and run an 
 errand, handle an emergency or drive to the next town. Faster L2 charging 
 frees up the car for more trips in a day, and L3 opens the portal to nearby 
 intercity trips. Supercharging opens the portal to interstate trips. All of 
 these charging options make an EV that much more practical.
 
 For the Volt there's a 300 mile generator included, so it's OK to design for 
 most trips. But for a BEV, the driver must consider the maximum trip 
 required or have another vehicle to pick up that slack.
 
 Cheers,
 -Jamie
 
 
 On 5/13/15 1:08 PM, Ben Goren wrote:
 On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody 
 and L2 being overkill, I would ask based on what data?
 
 Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 
 20 kWh you get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as 
 many miles as nearly everybody is going to need in a day, especially given 
 the types of efficiency figures we're headed towards and that Lawrence was 
 advocating. At 250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's 
 still 40 miles, the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt as almost good 
 enough for 100% electric for almost everybody.
 
 Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more 
 than 40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so 
 in an EV that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?
 
 Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of 
 extra money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always 
 leaves them with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of 
 the day before?
 
 b
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, 2013 there were 
32,719 fatalities on US roads in 2013.  One wonders how many of them
could have been prevented if distracted driving was eliminated as a cause.

Yes I think even if we don’t get to full self driving in the near future the 
ability of cars to sense your surroundings and avoid tailgating and the
associated rear enders, obstructed vision lane changes and hitting
pedestrians who either you don’t notice or they absentmindedly step into
traffic.  If we get to ‘you can steer’ but you can’t tailgate, can’t run red 
lights,
can’t change lanes with insufficient room etc. the roads will be a lot safer.

On another note, as my electric car gives me lots of statistics; one that
pop into my head is that my average daily commute speed is about 20mph.
Can you imagine a day when self driving cars talked to each other and talked
to smart interactions.  I might be able to raise my average speed to 25mph
and avoid the stress of lane weaving and rushing light and honking at slow
drivers :-)

Lawrence


 On Apr 6, 2015, at 1:16 PM, SLPinfo.org via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Clearly the technology needs work, but part of me welcomes them.  But I've
 never been in love with driving.  I just want to get to my destination in
 one piece.   As my own senses and reflexes fade with age and having just
 taken the keys away from an elderly parent who (thankfully) didn't kill
 anyone in a recent accident, I can see a big portion of the population
 welcoming the possibility of increased safety on the roads.
 
 Peter Flipsen Jr
 Hillsboro, OR
 
 On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:32 PM, damon henry via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 All it will take for most people to move over to self driving cars is $5 a
 month off their insurance :)
 damon
 
 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 19:07:42 +
 To: electricb...@embarqmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 
 Yeah,
 
 Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial
 intelligence program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social
 media and automatically vote for them in elections. If they will trust
 their lives going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless
 programmers who work for some corporation (who can't even make a web
 browser that doesn't fail), why wouldn't they trust a corporation to
 automatically vote for them?
 
 After all...what could go wrong?
 Am I missing something?
 
 
 
  From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars
 
 The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot
 gun and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Agreed.

The 'solar garage' has so many benefits.

The placement of the cells can be (more or less) optimized for charging.
The panels can be fairly standard ones and so relatively cheaper.
The dump pack can provide emergency power for the freezer and other essential 
items.
The space underneath will be shaded and would make a nice patio area to relax 
in under the hot sun.

A solar car would be a neat thing to see but I don’t think it would be 
practical as a daily driver.  A solar dump store with a quick charge port on 
the car would be more usable.

I know I give up on solar battery charges all the time when I work out how long 
in direct sun I would need to recharge my phone or laptop and realize it’s 
several days to recharge per day of use.  For example MEC has a 9Ah charger 
that claims 'Solar panel output is 3W and will fully charge battery pack in 
about 18 hours of strong sunlight’; yes 500ma x 18 hours = 9Ahr but that’s 18 
hours of strong sunlight, maybe 3 days if you can get 6-8 hours a day.  For 
most long weekends away I’ll just take a couple of big rechargeable batteries.  
A solar charger in my earthquake bug out bag might be useful however.


Lawrence Harris


 On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:26 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short 
 drives) and can be parked in full sun
 
 (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can 
 gain charge over time, about 5 hours
 
 (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh 
 harvested each day.
 
 ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car 
 like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over 
 that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and 
 about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other 
 things as well, and so on.
 
 The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is 
 for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. 
 (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering 
 students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful 
 general-purpose vehicles).
 
 ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better 
 off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a 
 tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple 
 days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving.
 
 Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either.
 
 You know...there's another way to look at it.
 
 All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. 
 Animals eat the plants.
 
 Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and 
 low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles.
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] EValert: !Don't buy a salvaged Tesla EV to repair drive! (video)

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I am afraid I side with Tesla on this.  As much as I like to be able to tinker 
with 'my stuff' here we have a very complex system with many sensors and 
actuators that are all controlled by the onboard computer systems.  The car has 
been repaired by (apparently) someone with no training on making sure all these 
system, some of them safety systems, are working.  Tesla says let us take a 
look, if it's all ok we will reactive the car, if not you have the choice of 
getting them fixed or abandoning the project.

I read the 'at your cost' part to mean at a minimum that Tesla would not pay to 
transport the car from where ever it was to a suitable testing facility whether 
they would charge for the inspection or not.

As an aside I had a similar talk with Mercedes when the onboard computer in my 
car got fried (wiring issue - their fault out of warrantee and no recall).  I 
tried to get  a replacement from the wreckers and was told sorry, the computer 
is flashed to the VIN of the car and unless I replace 'all' the various 
interlinked components including the keys it won't work - only a new computer 
will work.  Talking to my non dealer mechanic he said many of the new cars are 
like this and there are system he can't easily service.

Lawrence Harris

On Oct 1, 2014, at 2:41 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 disagree.  Sounds like to me they are perfectly willing to work with the
 guy.  But the guy is unwilling to work with them...
 bob
 
 On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 On Oct 1, 2014, at 2:23 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 As it looks now, they are only refusing to enable the car out of concern
 for their brand image...
 
 Ironically enough, they may well be doing their brand image more harm with
 their current actions than if they were to work with the guy
 
 b
 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: As EV battery prices fall ?More range or lower 100mi EV cost?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Yes but to make battery swapping economical we need the D cell for car
batteries and given the proliferation of laptop and camera batteries that
seems unlikely.  You can buy a  rechargeable D cell at your local retail
store that has a capacity of 2200maH just like the AA beside it - guess
what - it's just a AA in sheep clothing.  You can also get a D cell with
10,000maH capacity for several times the price and it weights considerably more.

So pick what you need they will both fit in the same flashlight or radio or toy 
robot or ...

Lawrence Harris
On Aug 28, 2014, at 9:01 AM, Ed Blackmond via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 
 
 On Aug 28, 2014, at 6:51 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 how much range  is enough...is it better to... decrease price
 without improving range or make electric vehicles go further on a charge?
 
 ​ Why not do both?
 
 Amen.  I like the new Nissan concept of a range of batteries to match the
 individual.
 
 I do not want to spend extra 10's of thousands of dollars for an extra 50
 miles range that I only need 2% of the time.  That makes that 2% travel very
 expensive.  Back when TESLA offered three range batteries, the cost
 difference was something like an extra $50,000 to go from their smallest
 battery to the largest.  That means if one generally uses the Tesla for
 local travel, then those once a month trips over 250 miles are costing an
 extra $50,000.  For that money, one can rent a gas car EVERY weekend for 10
 years including gas, and not have to lug around the extra 500 lbs of battery
 every day commuting.
 
 On the other hand, if one travels 200 miles often, then there is no
 question, the extra $50,000 gives you a great EV to make the trip.
 
 Bob, WB4APR
 
 This also suggests a leasing model for the battery pack. The car can be 
 purchased or leased separately from the battery pack. Someone who needs a 
 long range can lease a battery pack with a guaranteed capacity of something 
 like 60KWH. When the pack capacity drops below this, it can be turned in for 
 one that has the guaranteed capacity.
 
 The first pack can then be leased for another car at a lower guaranteed 
 capacity (presumably for a lower fee). This process can be continued until 
 the pack is no longer useful for mobile applications.
 
 At this point, packs can be used for stationary applications like grid 
 stability, peak load shaving, and similar things.  When they are no longer 
 useful for these applications, they can be taken out of service and recycled 
 into a new high capacity pack again.
 
 A driver who need a 25KWH pack most of the time, but on a special occasion, 
 needs a 60KWH pack, can simply have the pack swapped and pay the extra fee 
 for as long as the higher capacity is needed. For example, in colder 
 climates, a higher capacity pack might be needed for a few months of the 
 year. Someone taking a vacation might need a higher capacity pack for a 
 weekend or a few weeks.
 
 Ed
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Re: [EVDL] To Noalox, or Not to Noalox (was: Lithium battery setpoints...)

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Remember that in almost any connection there is always an oxide layer.  The 
purpose of the sanding is to remove enough of this so that a reasonable 
pressure between the wire/strap and the connection can break through this layer 
and form a gas tight connection.  The grease is just there to keep moisture 
out, fill any small gaps and prevent surface corrosion.  The the added zinc 
will likely take up any remaining oxygen and further prevent corrosion for a 
time, as far as I know it does not contribute to the conductivity of the 
connection.

Lawrence Harris
On Jul 31, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Thanks for the level-headed reply Bill.
 
 You described three functions - grease excluding moisture, zinc as a
 sacrificial anode, and somehow removing aluminum oxide by sanding.
 
 Here on this list I have been persuaded that the grease excluding moisture
 is likely a good idea.  Pick one that won't dry or bake out.  I can't for
 the life of me figure out why a highly resistive dielectric grease
 (mentioned by others) is a better choice than a conductive grease...noalox
 is essentially a conductive grease given the Zn content.
 
 If you really do exclude the moisture then the zinc would be redundant,
 seems like.
 
 With aluminum, you just cannot expose bare un-oxidixed metal, it is not
 possible to do this, so I am not happy with the sanding idea.  The sanding
 has to be helpful on some other basis if it is indeed helpful.
 
 Be interesting if someone has compared greased un-sanded to greased and
 sanded.
 
 I suppose if you used really fine grit paper you might actually improve
 intimate mechanical contact, but I have my doubts.
 
 I admit I have not yet used any cells with aluminum terminals.  One pack
 has all the cells welded to stainless steel strips, the other are what look
 like stainless or nickel plated something, stamped and formed with a tapped
 holes (38120 size cells).  I have a group of used Thundersky cells, but I
 have not used them yet.
 
 
 On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 Here is an article describing how to make aluminum to copper connections,
 and when to use (and when not to use) oxide inhibiting paste:
 http://www.stabiloy.com/NR/rdonlyres/AD9F20D3-FA28-4662-
 A013-A154C569435C/0/AluminumBuildingWireInstallationandTerminations.pdf
 
 The cell manufacturer gives no guidance as to the use of oxide inhibiting
 paste, so one must try it both ways. I tried it without Noalox, and then
 with Noalox.
 
 I have installed cells without the light sanding and paste, and the
 connections were unsatisfactory. They got quite hot. The car performed
 poorly and had limited range. The cells would not balance well. I then
 performed the lightly sand and apply Noalox procedure, and did nothing
 else, and all those issues vanished. No additional torque. No added or
 removed components. No change whatsoever than to lightly sand and to add
 Noalox.
 
 Some time later, a friend had identical issues with his conversion, and I
 recommended the same treatment. He performed the lightly sand and Noalox
 procedure, and it cured his issues in the identical manner as it had cured
 mine.
 
 I now routinely use Noalox and I have not had any high resistance
 connections.
 
 The Noalox prevents galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar metals in
 the terminal by excluding moisture. Additionally, it has zinc particles
 that provide a sacrificial anode, further guarding against corrosion
 between the copper, aluminum, and the stainless steel bolt. In theory, this
 is what one does to prevent galvanic corrosion. It also appears to work in
 practice as well.
 
 I have actually done the experiment, and the results agree with theory. If
 anyone else has performed a similar experiment and had contradictory
 results, then I would enjoy hearing about it.
 
 Bill D.
 
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 -- 
 Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
 happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
 *Dalai Lama *
 
 Tell me what it is you plan to do
 With your one wild and precious life?
 Mary Oliver, The summer day.
 
 To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
 Thomas A. Edison
 http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html
 
 A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
 *Warren Buffet*
 
 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 550-2430 Land
 (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
 (919) 631-1451 Cell
 (919) 513-0418 Desk
 
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 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Controller page updates

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Lee's page worked great and I am a big fan of simple pages constructed with 
basic HTML tools.

Probably not quite what is being discussed but this is what we are dealing 
with.  Getting requirements to meet WCAG 2.0 Level A or AA for our web pages.  
http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/  This is designed to allow alternate 
readers, could be voice or brail or just large zoom factor and still make the 
contents usable.

Lawrence Harris

On Jul 17, 2014, at 6:55 AM, Sean Korb via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Read out and a Braille TTY.
 
 
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 Sean, with read do you mean when it is computer-read out to them?
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Sean Korb via
 EV
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:44 AM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller page updates
 
 Though not challenged in that particular way, I also appreciate that
 most
 blind people can read a well constructed HTML page.
 
 sean
 
 
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 8:30 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 I think with all the responses trying your html page from different
 browsers
 on various OS', I believe you have a good page.
 
 Not that it is needed, I also had good success bringing your page up
 on:
 Firefox, Opera, SeaMonkey (a Firefox version) when on Windows and when
 on
 Linux.
 
 I have found web pages using simple, straight-forward html 4.0 code
 have a
 good common denominator compatibility (the page will work on the
 majority
 of
 situations). It is when a web designer decides to get fancy and apply
 their
 College course training using flash, shockwave,  others, that web
 pages
 can
 have issues in different situations (the page may not be as 'pretty',
 wiz-bang, or 'cool', but the information and or message will get
 across to
 a
 majority of viewers).
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context:
 
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Controller-
 page-updates-tp4670371p4670379.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
 Nabble.com.
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 '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
 #1382
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 '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
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Re: [EVDL] Question about amp-hr

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

Heck, to draw 10uV at 1000A would be an interesting application.  In any event 
you are right.  1000Ah rating only makes sense as a power value if you know the 
battery so you know then that 1000Ah is really 12,000Wh for a 12v nominal 
battery.  What people mostly like to know about EV batteries is how much 
current you can draw, the terminology sometimes is a bit loose so context is 
important.  Sometimes when talking about the Ah value we are really asking if 
you can draw 1000A continuous; then it's suitable as a EV battery, if you can 
draw only 10A it's not.  So that same 12KWh battery is a good EV battery if 
it's capable of sustaining 1000Ah and a poor one if it's only capable of 10Ah.

Lawrence

On Jul 8, 2014, at 11:17 PM, Larry Gales via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I know that   watts = amps * volts,  and watt-hours (wh) is a measure of
 energy, but over and over again I hear people talking about EV batteries in
 terms of amp-hours.  What does that mean if you don't know the voltage?
 1000 amp-hr is not impressive if the voltage is, say, 0.1 volts.  Is
 there some sort of standard voltage, e.g., 3.6 volts, that is assumed when
 one talks about LiON batteries?  Does amp-hours tell you something more
 than watt-hours?
 
 Thanks in advance,--
 Larry Gales
 
 -- 
 Larry Gales
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