Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Here's one: transparent inductive charging.

If we're dreaming, it's a wonderful dream. I don't think it's a very realistic 
dream, but it's certainly wonderful.

As a bonus...going from inductive charging while parking to inductive charging 
on select stretches of highway wouldn't be that big a deal. It's even something 
that could be very beneficial without being close to a perfect solution. Just 
do grab the back of the envelope...if a typical car is consuming 300 Wh/mi at 
60 MPH, that's 18 kW / car. Round up to 20 kW for losses and to make the math 
easier. Even if a roadway could only deliver 5 kW / car, less than many of 
today's in-home chargers, that still extends range by 25%. Your 300-mile-range 
car almost becomes a 400-mile-range car. 

But, honestly?

I think EVs are going to get a _lot_ more popular once 200 miles is the range 
of the base model econobox and 300 miles is not uncommon in top-of-the-line 
models. Rapid charging infrastructure or no. You can put 300 miles of range in 
a 300 Wh/mi car in 8 hours at 220 V / 50 A. Almost nobody drives 300 miles in a 
day, and almost everybody has the car parked at home at least 8 hours a day. 
With even minimal rapid-charging infrastructure, such a car is a direct 
replacement for today's ICE vehicle -- even for vacation road trips. Drive ~250 
miles; four hours into the trip and it's time for a break. Even if it takes 
half an hour to recharge, that's not a problem; most people would be taking 
almost that long just to stretch their legs or maybe grab a bite to eat. And 
when the break is over, you're ready for another four hours of driving before 
you plug into the hotel's charger for the night. If the rapid charging station 
has a restaurant, so much the better. Even today, just look at
  how you automatically expect the middle-of-nowhere gas stations along the 
freeway to have a restaurant of some sort.

We're already expecting the next generation of EVs to be at that 200 mile 
range, and Teslas are already at that 300 mile range.

Which tells me that the only _real_ challenge to EV adoption...is sticker 
price. When the price premium for an EV is comparable to what the price premium 
used to be for an automatic transmission over a standard, that's it.

We can even see a direct parallel in very recent history: hybrid vehicles. They 
used to be much more expensive than their battery-less counterparts; today, 
they're only a bit more expensive and it seems like every other car on the road 
these days is an hybrid -- even a number of SUVs.

Until the past couple months or so, I was decidedly pessimistic about our 
chances for surviving the end of cheap oil. I still don't think it'll be a walk 
in the park...but solar is already cheaper for utilities than anything else but 
coal, and Tesla's utility batteries are already cheaper than any other form of 
peaking production. That means that all kinds of money is now going to shift 
away from fossil fuels and into solar and batteries, simply because the 
utilities that don't do so are going to lose out to those that do. And, more 
importantly, because the CEOs will want to pocket the savings, themselves. That 
will, in turn, _very_ rapidly drive down prices for solar and batteries for the 
rest of us...quickly to the point that the utilities themselves won't be able 
to compete with local generation and ICE vehicles won't be able to compete with 
EVs.

Imagine that, for a moment, so long as we're dreaming -- you've got an EV with 
a ~120 kWh pack and a ~400 mile freeway range. Next to your water heater (or 
wherever) is a ~400 kWh battery that both serves as a "dump pack" for your EV 
for rapid charging as well as all your other electricity needs. If you don't 
drive, you can go a week or two without sunlight depending on how much of an 
energy hog you are. And your roof is covered with enough solar panels that, 
even in the dead of winter, they'll collect enough that your batteries won't 
actually run out.

I think most any American would consider something like that a very desirable 
luxury life...and I do believe we might actually, after all, be on track for me 
to live long enough to see something like it come to pass.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 12:18 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> When I built mine I did a spread sheet.

Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share?

Because of the nature of the project, I'm not overly worried about battery 
range, but it's always better to refine expectations when possible.

Thanks!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Lee Hart  wrote:

> Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>>> The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.
>> Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?
> 
> One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, like 
> the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or has a 
> universal joint between it and the axle.
> 
> Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor shaft 
> and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the wheel is free 
> to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the reduction unit).

Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example, heard 
of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle.

> Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be 
> attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the 
> suspension.

Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design. You've either 
got no room for travel between stator and rotor and the two catastrophically 
collide the first time you run over a pebble, or else you've got an huge gap 
between the two with some sort of magnetic levitation keeping the wheels 
attached to the car and also somehow spinning.

> Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken.

Sounds like the answer

b&

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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 12:54 PM, Roland  wrote:

> The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink the tire 
> and than lower it on a white plastic cover board.

I understand that most track racing uses pyrometers or infrared cameras or the 
like to see which parts of the tire are heating up most, and adjust inflation 
to achieve and maintain maximally uniform load distribution.

I would further suggest that such an approach is ideal for all driving -- 
though, of course, generally impractical. Regardless, if you wish to change the 
dynamics of your tire's contact patch, the only safe way to do so is by 
choosing a different tire. Changing it away from optimal through inflation will 
result in either overinflation or underinflation, both of which can be most 
detrimental to the car's handling.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Michael Kadie via EV  wrote:

> The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in general.

That makes sense, and it's good news for my PHEV conversions...all-electric 
mode is going to be mostly around town and mostly at or below 45 MPH. Which 
means I should easily hit, for the Mustang at least, my goal of range 
performance roughly comparable to a Chevy Volt

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Roland via EV  wrote:

> If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is 
> recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick 
> that goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go 
> thru the wheel.

To save on (unsprung!) weight and expense, a fabric covering might be 
preferable. At least at one point, they were commonly available for bicycles, 
though I haven't seen as many recently. Superficially resembles a solid carbon 
disc wheel.

The basic idea would be a wire hoop the same size as the wheel and a round 
sheet of fabric stretched around it like a drum. Clips on the extremes of the 
spokes can hold the hoop in place. Depending on how the wheel is mounted to the 
axle and the like, you might also need an hole with a grommet in the center.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> The rule of thumb is weight / 10.

Oooh -- that's a very useful suggestion.

How much does aerodynamics change that? In particular, I'm thinking of a 1964 
1/2 Mustang with, I think, roughly a 0.5 cd. Final weight, though, should be 
roughly 3,000 pounds, maybe a bit over. And...a 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile, 
probably 4,000+ pounds and (literally!) the aerodynamics of a shoebox.

I've been figuring that better than 500 Wh / mile would be gravy for either. 
Not that I'm expecting such low numbers, especially for the Mustang; just that, 
if that's what I use, there'll be plenty of "Murphy factor" such that my 
surprise at the real-world performance will be pleasant.

(And, those who don't know: I'm looking at a PHEV through-the-ground conversion 
for both, retaining the RWD ICE drivetrain and adapting a FWD axle with the 
electric motor connected only to that.)

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

We must be using different terminology.

As best I understood it, the hub is the center of the wheel where the axle 
connects. The hubcap covers the hub. And I thought that hub motors are in the 
same basic location as the hubcap, with either the stator or rotor in the wheel 
and the other half in the axle.

Unsprung weight is the wheels and that which is fixed to them. Sprung weight is 
the frame and that which is fixed to it. The springs connect the two. 
Components, such as axles, that are fixed to both frame and wheels contribute 
some of their weight to each.

At absolute best, an axle motor would be partially sprung and partially 
unsprung. But once you put the motor in the wheel, in the hub, it's entirely 
unsprung.

b&

On May 18, 2015, at 8:35 AM, Mark Grasser via EV  wrote:

> Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung
> weight.
> 
> .
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM
> To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
> EV4the masses
> 
> Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors?
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Ben Goren via EV" 
> To: "Willie2" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
> EV4the masses
> 
>> On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:
>> 
>>> The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are 
>>> sprung.
>> 
>> Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?
>> 
>> b&
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>> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.

Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV 4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

Huh? Why the pessimism?

EVWest sells complete VW conversion kits, including a 22 kWh battery pack, for 
$19K. That leaves 4K for the sled -- more than enough.

b&

On May 17, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:

> Good luck with that...
> 
> On 5/17/2015 3:00 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>> 
>> http://www.hybridcars.com/open-source-project-hopes-to-offer-23000-ev-with-186-miles-range/
>> Open Source Project Hopes To Offer $23,000 EV With 186 Miles Range
>> by Sarah Shelton  May 14, 2015
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV  wrote:

> Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k.

I planted the bug after I drove them back from the airport last night. We'll 
see what, if anything it develops into...but I'm pretty sure it's now on their 
short list...and I don't think they had anything at all on their short list 
until now.

Thanks again!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> dump pack

Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a 
rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own.

Without one, you're left needing a grid connection able to meet your peak 
demand, which will be truly insane. Imagine a not-too-distant future where 
luxury EVs come with 100 kWh packs that people expect to charge in ten minutes; 
that's over half a megawatt. Now imagine a convoy of such traveling together on 
a road trip, all of them simultaneously pulling up to each of the 36 slots in 
the station. No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the 
grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. 
And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility 
because of the sharply peaking nature of the load.

But if, on average over the course of a day including times when all slots are 
empty, the station only "sees" one or two stalls in use at a time...well, a 
megawatt utility connection is still pretty freakin' huge -- 1 kV @ 1 kA, or 
however you want to balance the two -- but much more manageable. You'd keep a 
constant rate (or, perhaps, varying per utility feedback but averaged to a 
constant) of charge going into your massive dump pack, and each of the slots 
would feed from the dump pack, rapidly depleting it for just a short period of 
time as the grid constantly trickle-fills it back up again.

Again...the scale of such operations pretty much demands that they be insanely 
expensive, especially compared against a 110V / 15A overnight charge that'll 
more than satisfy almost all of almost everybody's needs once vehicles can 
reliably get over 200 miles on a full charge.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 14, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> I'd guess that one nightmare scenario for the utilities is for everyone in 
> the ritzy neighborhood to arrive home with their Teslas, and plug them all 
> into their superchargers at the same time!

Indeed, that may well be a significant part of the behind-the-scenes thinking 
with their new Powerwall product. Remember how we were discussing "dump packs" 
for that Israeli high-current battery that we suspect could be vaporware? The 
Powerwall would likely make an excellent dump pack for a Model S.

After all, Tesla is selling the Powerwall as a way to use off-peak electricity 
during on-peak times...and few if any home appliances are as power-hungry as a 
rapidly-charging EV. Yeah, a single module is only 7-10 kWh...but I bet that's 
right in line with typical daily charging demands as reported over-the-air back 
to Tesla.

Hadn't thought of it before...but, now that I have, I'd be surprised if Tesla 
engineers haven't.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 14, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high as 
> (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to domestic 
> charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or no) off 
> street parking spaces.

Pretty much every parking space is within shouting distance of a lightbulb, and 
it wouldn't take all that much to splice in 110V / 15A circuits to all those 
spaces. We hear more and more news stories about apartments providing plugs in 
the parking stalls, street meters doubling as charging points, and so on. I bet 
that's the standard we'll see: just as you expect a light switch at shoulder 
hight just inside every door on the same side as the knob, you'll expect an 
outlet at every parking spot.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 14, 2015, at 6:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> 
>> 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of
>> insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see 
>> in
>> a residential setting.
> 
> Not so far beyond at all.  A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 
> 240 volt service.  If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service 
> could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW.  
> 
> Many modern "mcmansions," which are often built by the dozens in high end 
> developments, now have 400 amp service.  This would allow for a continous 
> power of almost 77kW.  
> 
> Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly  
> widely available right now.

Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point.

60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, and 
nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many people living 
in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, 
especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra 
to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge 
the car?

Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker 
in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. 
That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, almost as many as 
will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the cost of the copper for 
the wiring is going to be insane -- especially since the meter is, as often as 
not, on the opposite side of the house as the garage.

And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper to cover 
all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, and cut the grid 
connection entirely.

I just don't see it.

What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the "new 
normal," for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V / 15A (or 
maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the types of people 
who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers installed, and then a 
footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid charging that only gets used out on 
road trips or out of desperation.

And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for profitability 
at the same time they charge exorbitant fees

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 13, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> It's the outliers that you have to accommodate.

Yes, but not necessarily with rapid charging.

When 200-mile ranges become the norm, as is promised soon -- say, a 40 kWh 
(usable) battery in a (conservative) 200 Wh / mile car -- the situation becomes 
moot. Put 150 miles on the car in an unusual day. Put "only" 70 miles back in 
the car in a shortened overnight charge. The battery isn't full, but you've 
still got 120 miles of range. Do your normal (but still more than average) 40 
miles the next day; down to 80. Put another 70 in overnight and it's back to 
full. At no time did you have less than 50 miles of range, and all your 
charging was at L1 rates only while you were in bed.

Will that handle cross-country road trips? No. Can you drive to Grandma 200 
miles away at the end of the day after a 40-mile round trip commute? No. If you 
need to do that sort of thing often or without warning, you'll need something 
more.

But most people will look at that and decide they can pay exorbitant rates at 
somebody else's rapid charger the once or twice a year that sort of thing 
happens, or rent a car, or otherwise manage, rather than spend thousands on a 
dedicated charger.

Of course, if your car can only go ~60 miles on a charge and takes a lot of Wh 
to do so, range anxiety starts to set in and rapid charging is a real way to 
assuage it. But if you can be confident that you'll wake up every morning with 
more miles in the "tank" than you'll need to drive, range anxiety vanishes.

...not to mention that rapid charging tends to shorten battery life

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 13, 2015, at 1:44 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an electric car as 
> our main vehicle.

The big factor you left out is daily driving mileage. If you're putting 80 
miles a day on the car, yes, L1 is probably borderline at best for you. But, 
for most people, half that is an unusually busy driving day. Not all people, of 
course, by any means...but most. Remember: most automotive warranties are in 
the range of 10,000 miles / year, which is equal to 40 miles per day, five days 
a week, fifty weeks a year; if you're doing more than that, you're probably 
beyond your warranty's coverage, which most people don't do.

And, with a 250 Wh / mile vehicle (such as the LEAF), 40 miles is a mere 10 kWh 
and well under 7 hours at L1 rates.

If it takes less time to charge the car for an entire day's worth of driving 
than it does to get a night's sleep, any sort of argument for faster charging 
as the normal mode is damned hard to make.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> But real range needs are based on maximums.

I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting that 
in-home L1 charging is the only way that an EV would ever be charged.

My point is that most people don't need more than L1 chargers in their home, if 
we're assuming that there are faster charging options on the road. But the 
resulting problem is that that sets an expectation of, say, at $0.10 / kWh and 
a 50 kWh (usable) pack and 250 wH / mile...a 200-mile range that costs $5 in 
"fuel" in the "tank." And what roadside rapid charger of any capability, let 
alone a supercharger, can compete with costs like that?

That big gap between the cost for most cars to mostly be charged and the 
minimum cost for profitability for rapid charging stations is going to be a 
challenge.

If batteries were cheap, one solution would be cars with even bigger batteries. 
If you drive a few extra miles in a day and more than your charger can top off 
overnight, no big deal so long as you don't do that every day for several days 
on end. But batteries aren't cheap, and you've still got a problem for 
multi-day road trips. Maybe the hotels invest in rapid chargers that're 
comfortable putting a 500-mile charge into a typical car over the course of 
eight hours, and the expense is included in the room rate? Because, even at 250 
wH / mile, you're still looking at 70A @ 220V for that, more than is realistic 
for any home charger.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody and 
> L2 being overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?

Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 20 
kWh you get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as many 
miles as nearly everybody is going to need in a day, especially given the types 
of efficiency figures we're headed towards and that Lawrence was advocating. At 
250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's still 40 miles, 
the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt as "almost good enough for 100% 
electric for almost everybody."

Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more than 
40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so in an EV 
that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?

Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of extra 
money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always leaves them 
with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of the day before?

b&
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[EVDL] SolaRoad cycle path electricity yield exceeds expectations

[Ben Goren via EV]

Interesting potential source of future EV energy:

http://phys.org/news/2015-05-solaroad-path-electricity-yield.html 

I'm a bit skeptical, though...by its very nature, anything put on the road is 
going to have to be a lot more durable and therefore expensive than what you'd 
put on a rooftop. Still, it's definitely a neat idea!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: UK's 1000hp 1975 Electric Enfield (v)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> I thought that torque was calculated/measured at the wheels

It can be measured anywhere, but is typically specified at the output shaft of 
the motor (whether electric or ICE) unless otherwise noted, for the simple 
reason that gearing changes torque. Horsepower can also be measured anywhere, 
and is generally assumed to be at the motor unless it's specified to be at the 
wheels. Both figures, of course, depend on engine RPM, and peak value is 
generally specified even though average torque tells you a lot more about what 
the engine can do than its peak.

If it's at the motor, the torque gets multiplied by whatever the final gear 
ratio is. The ICE half of my Mustang is going to have a 3.89:1 differential, 
and the engine will put out a relatively constant 400+ ft-lbs between 3000 and 
6000 RPM...which works out to about 1600 ft-pounds at the wheels in fourth 
gear, and nearly 5000 ft-pounds in first -- again, a problem in a ~3000 pound 
nose-heavy car, but a good problem to have.

When I put a dual AC-35 with ~2.5:1 reduction to a front wheel drive axle into 
the car in the next phase of the project, all-electric mode should be superior 
to what the original 260 cu. in. V8 was capable of...and hybrid mode is going 
to be insane, to use Tesla's word.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 13, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps on, reduce the 
> weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles .16 or so and stop 
> making these energy hogs.

That's definitely where a good deal of engineering effort needs to go, no 
matter what...but we've also got a bit of a conundrum on our hands.

Most EV charging can and should reasonably be expected to be done while the 
vehicle is parked, especially overnight at home. L1 chargers are today and 
always will be good enough for that for nearly everybody, and L2 is pretty much 
guaranteed overkill for nearly all the rest.

...but...unless the per-charge mileage is in the four-digit range, there will 
be situations where people will want to charge, wherever they happen to be, and 
they're not going to be happy if it takes more than ten or fifteen minutes. And 
15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a 
megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential 
setting.

The *real* problem is that I don't think that there's an overlap between what 
rapid charging is likely to cost and what people are likely to be willing to 
pay, especially when they're used to paying on the order of $0.10 / kWh at 
home. And with low demand, the prices would have to be even higher since they 
won't be spread out over as many customers, driving down demand even further.

But without the option for rapid charging, a small but significant minority of 
the miles people unthinkingly drive today simply can't be done in an electric 
vehicle, creating a chicken-and-egg problem.

That's part of Tesla's marketing brilliance with their own rapid charger 
network, but I don't know that it's something that can realistically be made 
universal.

Perhaps our best real-world hope is for Tesla to offer universal adapters to 
their superchargers for about the same price as they charge to upgrade their 
vehicles to supercharger capability. (Same price because Tesla's price includes 
their capital and operating expenses for the network, not just whatever is done 
to the car itself.) Done right, that would allow the minority who need to make 
road trips in non-Tesla vehicles to do so...and it even opens up the 
possibility for renting the adapters for rare road trips.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: UK's 1000hp 1975 Electric Enfield (v)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 13, 2015, at 12:12 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> Later in the weekend, the team turned up the wick and the car sprinted
> through the quarter mile in 12.56 seconds at 101.43 mph.

Quite respectable in and of itself, and most impressive in a car that started 
life as the antithesis of fast!

> The batteries pack delivers 370 volts, 600 kilowatts, more than 2000 amps,
> 1003hp,  and 1200 lb-ft of torque – all while weighing less than 360 lbs.

370 V * 2000 A = 740 kW, not 600 kW, and that's going to work out to be much 
closer to about the same numeric value for horsepower rather than 1003, so 
something isn't adding up. Very lightweight, though, for that much power. Be 
nice to know the Ah / kWh capacity...and the source and price

Regardless, in a vehicle that weighs under 2,000 pounds, he's got waay more 
power than he'll ever actually be able to put to the ground -- exactly the kind 
of problem you want in drag racing. Just taking that 1200 lb-ft of torque at 
face value...that's well over half the weight of the car, meaning that, 
assuming tires roughly 24" in diameter (give or take), even with no gear 
reduction (fourth gear equivalent and a 1:1 rear differential) he can _still_ 
break the tires loose. Insane! His big challenge is traction, including weight 
and balance management (especially getting the weight to shift to the rear axle 
without going over backwards) since he's not likely to be able to do much more 
with the tires.

Seems like a really fun project, and I bet it's even more fun to drive!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] pouch cells

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 12, 2015, at 12:33 PM, ken via EV  wrote:

> How are they for $ vs. power density.

Middle of the road, and a lot more than a LEAF battery from Hybrid Auto Center. 
They're also rather below average in terms of $ / max discharge rate, and on 
the heavy side.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

[Ben Goren via EV]

Very interesting...there's a 2012 w/ 15k miles listed not far from here for 
just under $9k; Leafs look like they tend to be at least half again as much. 
Something like that belongs on a short list.

Thanks!

b&

On May 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV  wrote:

> Our iMiev has served us really well, and is much easier to get in and out of
> than a Leaf, which is probably a consideration for older people.  Some
> people can't get past the looks, but once you get in and drive it, you
> appreciate the spartan (easy) interface, visibility (as compared to the
> Leaf), space inside, ease of parking, and good capability.  And, used prices
> are now quite low because a lot of the lease deals made back in 2013 are
> coming due.  Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k. 
> If you want to go for a new one, some people have found some amazing deals
> (one guy under $10k) after the federal and state tax credits - though
> finding new might be a little harder as Mitsubishi hasn't shipped a lot of
> 2014 or 2016 models.
> 
> (Incidentally, I don't know of any "teething pains" on the iMiev; ther's
> been only minor recall work since we had it, I'm not aware of any heat
> related issues on the battery pack and I've heard of only a couple pack
> failures in the US.)
> 
> You can see several people on the www.myimiev.com/forum/ has a lot of
> information including several threads on buying a used iMiev.  
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Dan Gallagher
> http://www.evalbum.com/3854
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675448.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 8, 2015, at 4:11 PM, len moskowitz via EV  wrote:

> StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

There's some industrial-grade technobabble in that article. Be wonderful if 
there's some substance to the claims, of course, but I'm not holding my breath.

The racing crowd will certainly sit up and notice if it's true. A battery that 
can charge in five minutes can presumably discharge in five minutes, too.

The obvious questions are the usual of how you're going to move that much 
current and where it's going to come from. They're talking about something on 
the order of a megawatt, far more than any residential outlet could even 
theoretically handle. Call it 5,000 amps at 200 volts -- an hundred times the 
beefiest circuit you're likely to find in your house, and far more than what 
your utility provides you at the meter.

The only realistic option I can think of is to have two sets of batteries, one 
in the car and another in the charger. The batteries in the charger charge at 
whatever rate the wall outlet supports for however long it takes to fill them, 
and then they dump their charge into the batteries in the car at full speed. 
(And I hate to think of the connector you need to be able to not melt with that 
kind of current!)

All that applies in spades for public charging stations. You'd need a 
substation-grade power connection plus an huge bank of similar batteries. 
That's gonna be a damned expensive capital investment, and that cost will get 
passed on to those charging there, driving down demand and thus jacking the 
prices even further...hard to see how it could be profitable enough to make 
business sense.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla's powerwall is already sold out through mid 2016

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 7, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Whether we argue that it makes sense financially, people are jumping in the 
> frey.

That is fantastic news for _everybody!_ If even the Gigafactory can't keep up, 
that tells you something huge about demand...and means that there will be lots 
of people inside and outside of Tesla scrambling to meet it

b&

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 6, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:

> Are there any additional policies you have in mind to help level the playing 
> field?

It's not something I've given much thought to...and, honestly? Anything I'd 
suggest would be politically unrealistic given how entrenched the fossil fuels 
industry is. For example, any future bailouts should likely be required to be 
spent primarily if not entirely on EV manufacturing and R&D...but is that 
likely to happen? Not a chance.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 6, 2015, at 2:51 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> I don't follow your reasoning.  There are reasons not to like a lease but the 
> fixed income aspect is not usually one of them.  In fact, often it's the 
> opposite: people on fixed incomes like leases because they are predictable 
> and the payments are (usually) lower than loan-to-buy payments.

Sorry...I realize I left out a detail obvious enough to me I didn't think to 
include it...they won't be getting a loan, no matter the vehicle; it'll be 
cash, with the largest share coming from the (presumed) insurance settlement, 
and, if need be (and it likely would) supplemented from savings from either or 
both them and me.

> A quick search for a Leaf in my area (Seattle) shows several used ones for 
> sale ranging from $11K and up.

That's likely the sort of thing we'd wind up looking at.

I guess what I'm asking from the list...is advice on which models are most 
likely to be good values as used vehicles given all the other considerations -- 
hot climate, ~50 mile range, freeway capable, reliable, etc.

...and possibly as well advice on what to avoid...I seem to remember Leafs up 
to a certain year died quick deaths in the heat...?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

[Ben Goren via EV]

Thanks, but I don't think a lease is likely to be especially desirable. It's 
that "fixed income Social Security" bit...an extra triple digits per month 
would be a disturbingly large fraction of their budget.

That's part of the reason why I think an EV would be ideal, if a suitable model 
is affordable; no more gasoline bills, and much cheaper per mile to charge. 
Once the purchase is made, it'd practically be free transportation for them.

b&

On May 6, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Rick Beebe via EV  wrote:

> Might be worth checking out the lease options. I'm leasing a Smart ED for 
> $124/mo with $250 down. A Smart's not the best freeway car but it's great 
> around town. I've seen deals on Leafs for under $250/month.
> 
> --Rick
> 
> On 05/06/2015 04:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>> So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might 
>> not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than 
>> could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and 
>> suspected possible frame damage.
>> 
>> So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they 
>> might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple?
>> 
>> It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish 
>> mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage.
>> 
>> The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. 
>> They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance 
>> settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the 
>> used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there.
>> 
>> Suggestions most appreciated.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> b&
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[EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

[Ben Goren via EV]

So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not 
be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be 
avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected 
possible frame damage.

So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they 
might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple?

It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish 
mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage.

The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They 
have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement 
with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is 
mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there.

Suggestions most appreciated.

Thanks,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 6, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:

> Presumably more choices will mean more cars. One size never fits all.

And there's another factor. Our market is capitalistic, yes, but far from an 
actual free market. This is a good thing; monopolies are an inevitable result 
of a free market, and monopolies are bad for everybody but the monopolists.

But that means that we wind up tipping the scales in various ways. We've tipped 
the scales an awful lot in favor of ICE vehicles, so it's only fair to tip the 
scales a bit in favor of electric vehicles as well.

It's only taken a very little bit of said tipping to create huge successes for 
electric vehicles, which should be a rather good indicator that electric 
vehicles are superior to their ICE counterparts. The rational thing would be to 
keep tipping those scales until the electrics are no longer at a relative 
disadvantage compared with all the support ICEs get.

Again...anybody else remember the automotive industry bailout, or the trillions 
we spend on wars overseas primarily in strategically critical oil-producing 
regions? If a few piddling little compliance laws can do what they've done in 
the face of that huge advantage ICEs get, imagine what it'd be like "all else 
being equal."

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Enclosed human-electric hybrid spins around the UCF campus

[Ben Goren via EV]

Looks like a good product. Be great to see plenty of those sorts of vehicles on 
the road.

b&

On May 3, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Michael Ross  wrote:

> That looks a lot like the ELF product of the company I just started working 
> for.  I was previously a beta tester for them.  It is a good design.  I have 
> been hired to develop new products, but I hope I can add to their 
> manufacturing, purchasing and other efforts as well.
> 
> Since I am an employee you have to take what I say with an open & skeptical 
> mind. 
> 
> I do still have the beta I bought, and commuted 25 miles each way with.  (25 
> miles takes about 1kWh at 48VDC nominal on my older machine.  
> 
> I degraded my LFP batteries by charging them fully in the hot sun, and have 
> not bought new packs. Now my commute is too long.   I think their current 
> packs are better than the ones I have, but I have no personal experience with 
> them.
> 
> The ELF they sell now is better than mine in a number of ways. Fit and 
> finish, some suspension improvements, many small manufacturing details are 
> better now.. Mpre options are available.   
> 
> It's effective and fun in an urban setting.  It is easy for car drivers to 
> see, and car traffic seems to treat you well - I have found it makes things 
> go smoother if you wave people around you when it makes sense - some people 
> just will not cross a double yellow without "permission.".   In suburbia you 
> may want to find more of the 25mph roads, but it really gets you across 
> intersections, up to speed from a dead stop, and up hills in a way no HPV 
> only bike can do.  On 25mph residential streets you will almost never hold up 
> car traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
> On May 3, 2015, at 12:27 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> > The Human Assisted Electric Vehicle could reach speeds of up to 40 mph and
> > has a range of about 50 miles. The entire vehicle cost about $4,000 to
> > produce.
> 
> Velomobiles are wonderful, as are electric-assist velomobiles. I'm not so 
> sure they'll well suited for American suburbia...but there are definitely 
> those for whom such a vehicle is perfect.
> 
> The thing that surprises me, though, is that price tag. It's not that hard to 
> spend that much on a recumbent trike, let alone add a fairing and an electric 
> motor, and velomobiles generally start at that price and up -- potentially 
> way up for high performance ones.
> 
> Anybody know any more about this one?
> 
> b&
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> 
> 
> -- 
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> Warren Buffet
> 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824 Google Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> 
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant (battery backup thinking)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 5, 2015, at 7:34 AM, Cruisin via EV  wrote:

> Why not buy a Volt 16.5kwh battery and add your own inverter for a backup.
> That's what my customers are doing. 

Where does one actually buy a Volt battery? I've looked a couple times without 
much success. I suspect it might be well worth considering for a PHEV 
conversion I have in mind to do

Thanks!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 4, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:

> They won't be pro-rating the warranty?

There's no mention of any proration on their Web site. It'd be a pretty bad PR 
move to omit a detail like that on the publicity page only to slip it in on the 
fine print, so I rather suspect it's not prorated.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 4, 2015, at 4:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> After 10 years of daily full-cycling, I am presuming that the value of the 
> pack
> and the 10-year old electronics is approaching zero

I don't think that's a valid assumption in this case. Tesla is including a 
ten-year warranty, meaning they're going to have to typically be nearly as good 
after 9 years and 364 days as they are new (presumably within some sort of 
specified degradation, such as 80% capacity). And Tesla's vehicular batteries 
are significantly outperforming expectations.

The resale value of these units might not be anywhere near $10,000, but they'll 
still be doing the job you bought them to do and will likely continue to keep 
doing that job for at least as long as a typical mortgage.

And if, in ten years, you can buy a comparable battery for, say, a mere $1,000? 
Well, then, we're _all_ that much wealthier.

That's the great thing about alternative energy investments: barring complete 
loss, you basically can't lose. With my solar panels, I effectively pre-bought 
several years worth of electricity at then-market rates. Everything after that 
is free electricity. If rates go up, I win even bigger because I'm not spending 
that money. Rates aren't going to go down, but, even if they do, that means 
that other goods and services made using that electricity will be cheaper. My 
own payoff time may be theoretically stretched out...but that's already money 
under the bridge and I was happy to pay what I felt was a fair price at the 
moment.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 4, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> Again, the most optimal case would be that you can shift the full 10kWh each 
> day, which
> would yield $2.60 per day or $950 per year.
> In 10 years that would give you $9,500 which is about the money you invested 
> in a 10kW
> system, 10 years earlier so this would give you a zero-percent investment 
> with risks. Not good.

Actually...a ten-year payoff is about a 7% annual rate of return, which is 
really rather good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_72

A ten-year payoff means that you've doubled your money over the course of ten 
years. 70 / 10 = 7%.

(That of course assumes the battery is still worth $10K at the end, and so on. 
I've still found the Rule of 70 to be a rather useful tool for doing this kind 
of financial analysis...anything with a ten-year or better payoff is almost 
always something you should seriously consider leaping at, if you've got the 
capital to spare. You'll have less money in your pocket, yes, but your expenses 
will be dramatically lowered giving you a lot more financial flexibility and 
security.)

b&
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Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 4, 2015, at 1:07 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> I mean 8 Amps at around 400V is not an EV power level, it is actually rather
> underwhelming - I wonder why Tesla with a profile of high-power application
> is releasing such a low power spec.

A "nominal" 5.8A @ 400V is comparable to a 20A load on a 110V line, in line 
with a typical single home circuit. You can put up to nine of them in a single 
unit, with up to a 30kW combined peak load. That's pretty well in line with 
typical household circuitry and usage.

They're selling them less as whole-home backup or off-grid batteries and more 
as arbitrage devices. Fill the batteries at off-peak hours, drain them during 
on-peak hours and only feed from the grid during on-peak when the batteries are 
empty. I've heard payback figures bandied about in the three-year range, making 
them the equivalent of a 25% annual return on investment -- simply phenomenal. 
If true, if you've got the capital to invest in them, you'd be an idiot to not 
buy them.

...if true

b&
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Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 4, 2015, at 10:20 AM, robert winfield via EV  wrote:

> dont forget aggregating, say, 1,000 of these 10kW Powerwalls into a 10 
> megawatt virtual power plant VPP, (or any multiplier) for microgrids of 
> distributated generation

That's part of the frustration of the idiocy of the utilities in trying to 
stomp on distributed generation. If anything, the grid makes _more_ sense with 
distributed generation. If your instantaneous peak usage doesn't coincide with 
your neighbor's instantaneous peak, you don't need enough local peak capacity 
to meet your own needs if you can draw from your neighbor for the moment -- 
assuming, of course, you're willing to return the flavor. Spread that out over 
enough houses, and everybody just needs enough for the average overall peak -- 
which will be substantially less than the individual peaks.

Something like that would be perfect for a new subdivision

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla will sell the home battery, the Tesla Powerall, for $3, 500,

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 4, 2015, at 10:10 AM, Michael Ross  wrote:

> Think decades.

But that's just it.

Power plants are intended to have a lifespan of decades, and to be profitable 
over that lifespan.

Even if it takes 20 years to ramp up battery production...well, if you decided 
today to build a new nuclear power plant, it still wouldn't be online by then. 
So who's going to finance a new nuclear power plant that'll be overpriced and 
obsolete before you ever flip the switch?

I expect our existing power plants to remain in commission until their end of 
life, but I really don't expect we'll see any new construction of...well, 
basically anything other than solar PV and wind. Even natural gas is going to 
have a difficult time competing with battery-backed renewables. Coal will be 
the last holdout, of course...but coal would already be unprofitable today if 
the plants were required to sequester all CO2 emissions, and the pressure to 
cut back on CO2 pollution from coal plants is only going to increase. Solar 
won't have to be cheaper than non-sequestered coal to win, once it's available 
at a scale to compete.

And the _really_ exciting bit?

You can do it at home!

A lot of people would be thrilled to pay even a significant premium over their 
current rates to be entirely independent of the utility and stop being a part 
of the problem. And once the price to homeowners gets to the point that there's 
no longer a premium, but a discount? Bye-bye utilities. Why pay more (in this 
hypothetical hopefully-soon-here future) for something inherently less reliable 
that causes so much pollution and puts us at geopolitical risk?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla will sell the home battery, the Tesla Powerall, for $3, 500,

[Ben Goren via EV]

Here's the link:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2015/05/01/did-tesla-just-kill-nuclear-power/

Key point: Tesla is set to sell utility-scale batteries to utilities for, as 
the article puts it, about $0.02 / kWh. Filling those batteries from renewables 
costs less than just running a nuclear power plant. Both give you baseload 
capability, and the renewables with batteries give you peaking capacity and 
otherwise full control over supply.

Very provocative. Almost certainly true. And, coming from Forbes? Extremely 
significant.

If I do the math on the Powerwall batteries...a $3500 battery gets you 10 kWh. 
Cycle that battery fully every day for fifteen years: 10 * 365 * 15 = 54,750, 
or about 55 MWh. Divided by the purchase price and that's about $0.06 / kWh -- 
well in line with economies of scale and the like.

For that matter...considering the ability of a battery to provide peaking 
capacity, Musk probably also killed more than just nuclear. For me, the real 
question...when will solar + batteries be cheaper than coal?

b&

On May 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> Did Tesla Just Kill Nuclear Power?
> 
> |   |
> |   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
> | Did Tesla Just Kill Nuclear Power?It would be almost three hours until 
> Tesla's big announcement, but inside a Northwestern University classroom near 
> Chicago Thursday night, the famed nuclear critic ... |
> |  |
> | View on www.forbes.com | Preview by Yahoo |
> |  |
> |   |
> 
> Seems Tony StarI mean Elon Musk has done it again.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Enclosed human-electric hybrid spins around the UCF campus

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 3, 2015, at 12:27 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> The Human Assisted Electric Vehicle could reach speeds of up to 40 mph and
> has a range of about 50 miles. The entire vehicle cost about $4,000 to
> produce.

Velomobiles are wonderful, as are electric-assist velomobiles. I'm not so sure 
they'll well suited for American suburbia...but there are definitely those for 
whom such a vehicle is perfect.

The thing that surprises me, though, is that price tag. It's not that hard to 
spend that much on a recumbent trike, let alone add a fairing and an electric 
motor, and velomobiles generally start at that price and up -- potentially way 
up for high performance ones.

Anybody know any more about this one?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 1, 2015, at 6:24 PM, jim via EV  wrote:

> Regarding possible life of a lead acid battery system, we are on our 3rd lead 
> acid battery for our wind and solar home power system.

Might you be willing to spare a few more details? Specifically...things like 
how the array is sized, especially in comparison to times of low output and 
high usage, how you make it through times where those two don't meet up, and so 
on? Do you have a generator, for example? Do have the batteries simply shut off 
rather than discharge to a damaging level?

...you'll likely know the questions I should ask better than I do

Thanks!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system (backup foolishness)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 1, 2015, at 11:25 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> On 1 May 2015 at 16:24, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> 
>> Lithium is probably already at the 80/20 rule for technical performance
>> compared with nickel-iron...and it's a lot cheaper.
> 
> This puzzles me.  I don't see what, other than scarcity, makes NiFe 
> batteries so bloody darn expensive.  

You and me both! Especially frustrating is that it's entirely within the realm 
of hobbyist technology to build the bloody things. Indeed, if you're okay with 
making soap and canning food, you probably have everything you need to safely 
make them.

I think part of it has to do with little opportunity for repeat sales or 
lucrative maintenance contracts. They're typically marketed as "the last 
battery you'll ever need," which can also make people more willing to spend 
more on them.

I think, if SRP hadn't grandfathered us existing PV customers with their new 
"fuck you" rate schedule, I'd probably be building a nickel-iron battery right 
now. Instead, I've got a monthly auto-deposit to a savings account going...when 
the confluence of battery prices, utility policies, grid stability, and how 
much I've saved up in that account come to the right balance, I'll buy 
something off the shelf. Might even be a Tesla several years from now

b&
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[EVDL] ACEA: Alternative Fuel Vehicle registrations - +28.8% in first quarter - Automotive World

[Ben Goren via EV]

http://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/acea-alternative-fuel-vehicle-registrations-28-8-first-quarter/
 

Nothing in there about how the proportions of the fleet are changing. Good that 
EVs are up...but are ICEs up, as well? Are there just more cars on the road 
altogether, or is the fleet actually electrifying?

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system (backup foolishness)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 1, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> You'd also murder a lithium pack in a few years, if you deeply discharged it 
> every day.

Not if you've got a smart BMS that prevents you from murdering it and instead 
reports that the battery is empty regardless of how much remaining charge there 
is when you'd damage it if you discharged it further.

As evidence...see all the Teslas on the road with nary a report of an 
underperforming battery and lots of reports of batteries significantly 
outperforming projections.

> You have to select the size and type of battery according to the application. 
> Some will be best served with lead-acid, some nickel-iron, others lithium etc.

That's true today...but I don't think it will remain true much longer.

Lithium is probably already at the 80/20 rule for technical performance 
compared with nickel-iron...and it's a lot cheaper. It's more upfront capital 
than lead-acid...but has such a longer lifespan and better performance that 
lead-acid's days are numbered as well.

The real clincher is that there're huge opportunities of scale ramping up for 
lithium for vehicular batteries. Maybe lithium isn't the ideal technology for 
other settings...but, if lithium is "good enough" for those settings, its 
ubiquity and increasingly-cheaper price are going to make it the de-facto 
chemistry of batteries in basically any setting save for a few niches.

...and lithium has some perks going for it for the home, as well. Tesla's 
marketing materials show their new batteries hanging on the wall just like a 
breaker box or an inverter. Try doing _that_ with lead-acid!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 1, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> You would not *believe* how badly some of them are made, because the seller 
> knows you discover it is junk until too late!

Yet another spectacularly missed opportunity by the utilities. Had they a clue, 
they'd be the leading installer and maintainer of generating facilities, 
including small-time home-based ones. They could afford to be as cheap as 
anybody else up front and then sell lifetime support contracts for a nominal 
monthly fee.

Instead, they're determined to become dinosaurs

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 1, 2015, at 1:43 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> For people on ToU, the unit can make sense even without solar, by simply 
> load-shifting from
> expensive hours to cheap (nighttime) tariff

That is, indeed, how Tesla appears to be marketing this. Essentially, as a way 
for homeowners to make money with electricity arbitration.

It also shows how the current utilities are such bloody fools...they themselves 
are already the ones reaping the profits on exactly this type of arbitration 
from people with solar panels who charge the grid on-peak and draw back from it 
off-peak. Even if you net out to zero and don't have a bill, the utility is 
still making out like bandits from you on the arbitrage.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 1, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Lev Lvovsky via EV  wrote:

> Even with that though, how is $5k possible?

Tesla is a 500-pound gorilla looking to become an 800-pound gorilla.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 1, 2015, at 9:34 AM, via EV  wrote:

> While Lithium batteries make a lot of sense for vehicles where energy density 
> to weight is a big deal, I'm not sure of the advantage for stationary 
> installations.  Cost for Lithium is still a big issue.  An ~40kWh pack of 
> deep cycle, lead acid batteries that provide battery backup for my house 
> costs ~$5k.

Yes, but how long will those lead cells last? Indications are that, especially 
when gently used in climate-controlled settings, lithium batteries have the 
potential to have an usable service life similar to that of a mortgage, but 
lead acid batteries are notorious for going tits-up after just a few years. If 
you get five years from $5,000 of lead acid but fifteen years from $14,000 of 
lithium, the lithium is the better investment.

Especially if coupled with a generator or (PH)EV that can serve as a backup for 
extended periods of low input and high demand, and depending on the size of the 
PV array, a surprising number of people could drop off the grid with 20 kWh of 
batteries and many could with 30 kWh. Most should be able to with 40 kWh with 
many not needing the genset at that point.

If you're paying on the order of $15 - $20 / month for grid connection fees, it 
doesn't make sense to spend $10,000 or so on a battery to drop off the grid. 
But many utilities are trying to structure their rates such that, even if 
you're at or over 100% net generating capacity, you'll still cut them a check 
for $50 - $100 / month...and suddenly, hey-presto, that $10,000 to drop off the 
grid makes the same kind of financial sense that the initial solar investment 
did.

Things are about to happen fast. Barring apocalyptic scenarios of whatever 
variety, most of us will live to see the day when a grid connection is as 
anachronistic as a landline telephone is today.

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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:

> On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Tom Martin via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> The state in turn sent you a 'Certificate' of title.  The auto you bought 
>> and paid for is the property of the state.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> The Certificate of Title establishes *you* as owner of the car. Not the state.

I think Tom might be coming from a certain Libertarian perspective that says 
that, if the State can confiscate or otherwise render valueless your property, 
especially if you stop paying taxes ("rent" in those circles), then it's the 
state that owns whatever it is.

I haven't heard this applied to a vehicular title, but it's certainly a common 
theme with property taxes.

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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 28, 2015, at 1:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> This is not quite the same as the Leaf battery model cited, I guess, but 
> it's a similar principle: make it more difficult for the independent 
> mechanic or private owner to service the battery.

It also is making the idea of buying a Leaf or other battery to power a 
conversion decidedly less appealing. Even if the battery you buy is stripped of 
all that nonsense, there's the moral question of financially supporting that 
sort of "ecosystem" while non-restrictive alternatives are available.

It's looking more and more like the PHEV Mustang is going to get something like 
an A123 pack that I solder up myself

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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 27, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> being the devil's advocate...
> 
> This is clearly not great for the poor or the DIY'r, but the new car buyer
> may have much better cars to choose from, I expect instead of 200K miles
> being common, 100K was a great thing when I was young, I am sure with EVs
> there will be an expectation of 300K and 400K life.

That's got basically nothing to do with locking people out of their own 
vehicles, and everything to do with basic engineering -- materials science 
especially, as well as new manufacturing techniques to permit the use of 
stronger, lighter, and more efficient materials and designs.

My 1964 1/2 Mustang that's going to become a plugin hybrid? It's going to make 
more power, get better mileage, and have a better chance of lasting longer than 
basically anything you could buy from the dealer in the '60s. The block itself 
may well wind up having been manufactured in the '60s...but the rotating 
assembly is going to be either forged or nodular iron, it's going to have fuel 
injection, and so on, giving the drivetrain basically all the advantages of 
both '60s and modern technology and none of the disadvantages of either.

The auto manufacturers are just following in the footsteps of the inkjet 
printer manufacturers: sell the printers for the price of a full set of ink 
cartridges...and sell the cartridges at some sort of insane 
thousand-to-one-or-so markup. And put a $0.0001 chip in the cartridges that 
ensures that you can't refill them and can only use the manufacturer's 
cartridges in the printer.

My advice to car buyers?

Don't buy anything model year 1966 or newer. If you have a newer car that left 
the factory withOUT computer controls, don't sell it.

Either that, or just get it out of your head right now any notion that you 
actually own the car

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV Boat

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 26, 2015, at 6:06 PM, George McNeir via EV  wrote:

> In effect, those with knowledge of the Navitas NPS600 motor controller, 
> eCycle electric motors, super cap/battery amalgamations, advanced alkaline 
> fuel cells, thin/flexible PV modules, internal grid power distribution DC 
> networks and anything else that may be contemplated for such a craft is 
> welcome.

You've already got the motor and controller specced, it seems, but, if you're 
still in the early stages of things, you might want to get in touch with HPEVS. 
They've got a a brand-new line of oil-cooled versions of their motors 
specifically designed for marine usage.

http://www.hpevs.com/oil-cooled-drive-systems.htm

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted> pushed, handcuffed, punched, pepper-sprayed +

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 26, 2015, at 7:30 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Either something huge is missing from the story or we're seeing incredibly 
> poor judgment by police officers.

Alas, I fear the only thing "missing" is a realization that this sort of shit 
goes on all the time, and it's only quite rare that there's somebody with a 
camera there to film it. The only "poor judgement" the officers are going to 
consider themselves guilty of is not noticing the bystander with the camera.

"Driving While Black" is outrageous enough...apparently "Charging While Black" 
needs to be added to the list.

I have some small hope that the increasing ubiquity of smartphones will help 
keep the cops better in line...but cops are also well known for intimidating 
bystanders into destroying evidence that incriminates corrupt cops, if 
necessary by arresting the bystanders for failing to comply with a police order 
and then "accidentally" destroying the evidence themselves.

There're lots of good cops on the beat, to be sure...but the system as an whole 
stinks to high heaven.

Regardless...a sad lesson for EV drivers with a built-in suntan. You're at as 
much danger from the cops when you're charging as you are when you're driving; 
plan your charging accordingly, be aware, and protect yourself. Maybe even 
invest in a dsahcam of your own, and a particularly inconspicuous one at 
that

b&
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[EVDL] Can Automakers Legally Stop You From Working On Your Car?

[Ben Goren via EV]

Not specific to EVs, except insofar as they're coming of age at the same time 
as the automakers are trying to follow in the computer industry's footsteps.

http://www.hotrod.com/news/1504-can-automakers-legally-stop-you-from-working-on-your-car/
 

Homebrew conversions are going to have a great deal of attraction to them for 
anybody who doesn't want some corporate beancounter somewhere telling them what 
they can and can't do with an hunk of steel they just paid good money for. My 
only fear is that the automakers might try to get legislation passed that 
requires the original manufacturer to "certify" any such conversion. Can you 
imagine having to get permission from GM to drive your newly-electrified '57 
Caddy?

b&
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[EVDL] Japan showcases really, really fast … whoa, WTF was that?! • The Register

[Ben Goren via EV]

I don't remember if trains fall within the limits of discussion set forth by 
the charter or not...but, either way, this is *way* cool news about an electric 
vehicle:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/22/japan_train/ 

I have no idea how practical or economical it might be for Japan or the States. 
I don't care. I just want to live in a world where these things connect all the 
major cities, with trains spaced no more than 20-30 minutes apart!

And, why, yes. I _do_ want a pony, now that you mention it. How'd you guess?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Twitter-Acct hacked> *Bogus Free-Tesla offer

[Ben Goren via EV]

Let's hope Tesla's engineers are better at securing their over-the-air updates 
than their PR department is at securing their social media accounts

b&

On Apr 25, 2015, at 4:18 PM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> 
> 
> http://mashable.com/2015/04/25/hackers-tesla-twitter-account/
> Hackers briefly take over Tesla Twitter account, offer fake free car
> By Adario Strange  [20150425]
> 
> [images  
> http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE1LzA0LzI1LzdkL3RzbDkwODcxLmE3YTA1LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/e09c4a23/633/tsl90871.jpg
> tsl9087  Image: Rick Bowmer/Associated Press
> 
> http://rack.2.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE1LzA0LzI1LzlhL2RuNzAuNTI2ZTkuanBnCnAJdGh1bWIJMTIwMHg5NjAwPg/0c8a21cc/97a/dn70.jpg
> dn70
> ]
> 
> The most talked about electric vehicle in the tech world, Tesla Motors,
> suffered a hack targeting its Twitter account Saturday.
> 
> Shortly after 4:30 p.m. ET, Tesla's Twitter account was taken over by
> unknown parties, with the message, "This twitter is now ran by @chf060 and
> @rootworx," and the Tesla name replaced by "#RIPPRGANG."
> 
> However, neither account mentioned in the message has taken credit for the
> hack, and the owner of the @rootworx account has posted messages denying any
> connection to the incident.
> 
> The subsequent tweets to the account by the hackers included racial epithets
> and even a message offering a free Tesla to anyone calling a telephone
> number posted to the Twitter account.
> 
> The owner of the @rootworx account claims to have received numerous calls
> about a free Tesla following the hack, along with the denial of any
> connection to the cyber attack.
> 
> Subsequent messages posted to the Tesla account direct credit for the hack
> to a Twitter account name matching the earlier hashtag.
> 
> The takeover lasted just under an hour and, as of this writing, Tesla
> appears to have regained control of its account. 
> [© mashable.com]
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2015/4/25/8497545/teslas-twitter-hacked
> Hackers temporarily take control of Tesla's website, Elon Musk's ...
> Earlier today, Tesla's Twitter account and website were taken over by some
> ... The hackers posted a phone number saying those who called it ...
> ...
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-25/tesla-hacked-on-twitter-media-relations-e-mail-accounts
> Tesla Hacked on Twitter, Media-Relations E-Mail Accounts
> Tesla Motors Inc.'s Twitter feed and its media-relations e-mail account were
> hacked Saturday, with the electric-car maker led by billionaire Elon Musk
> becoming the latest victim of online vandals. The hacker or hackers who
> compromised Tesla's Twitter feed ... 
> ...
> http://www.canadianreviewer.com/cr/2015/4/25/teslas-site-and-twitter-account-gets-hacked.html
> Tesla's site and Twitter account gets hacked
> April 25, 2015  Hackers seem to have gotten into both Tesla's website and
> official Twitter account. Around 5PM ET, tweets showed up on its page that
> suggest that the site was no longer handled by the company. It doesn't seem
> like anything to grave but it was still an ... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For EVLN posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> 
> 
> {brucedp.150m.com}
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Tesla-Twitter-Acct-hacked-Bogus-Free-Tesla-offer-tp4675131.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 24, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Russ Sciville via EV  wrote:

> Who would wish to drive around with a hydrogen tank in the back pressurised 
> to 10,000 psi?

There's lots of insanity associated with FCVs, but fuel safety isn't part of 
it. Hydrogen is much safer than gasoline in that regards. Not that gasoline is 
especially safe, of course, but it's a well-accepted and well-managed risk, and 
hydrogen is a lesser risk than that.

Gasoline vapors are heavier than air and tend to pool. Liquid gasoline wicks 
very easily into fabric. Gasoline fires stay close to the ground and in your 
clothes.

Hydrogen is the most buoyant gas there is. An hydrogen leak is going straight 
up and isn't going to collect anywhere in enough volume to sustain combustion. 
If you started an hydrogen fire, the flames are going to shoot right up rather 
than spread laterally. And, unlike gasoline fires which are excellent at 
sustaining themselves, the slightest interruption of an hydrogen flame is going 
to extinguish it. Indeed, even creating a sustaining flame in the first place 
is going to be a bit of a challenge -- think of how careful you have to be to 
light a propane torch; hydrogen will be even more challenging.

Pressurized tanks can be scary, yes, but, in practice, it takes either 
malicious intent or something spectacularly catastrophic to set off one built 
to automotive specs.

Where hydrogen falls flat is first in terms of pollution. Hydrogen is 
commercially sourced from mined hydrocarbons and thus is as much of a CO2 
pollutant as the coal, oil, or gas it's produced from. Because it's the 
lightest and most highly possibly refined form of those hydrocarbons, it next 
loses out on efficiency (for the same reason gasoline loses to diesel) -- 
especially compared with electric vehicles. It loses out in a really big way in 
terms of the distribution network which doesn't exist for hydrogen but does for 
everything else -- and which would be much more challenging and expensive and 
less efficient to build than anything else we've already built. And it loses 
out to gasoline and diesel in terms of practicality because...well, while 
hydrogen has far and away the greatest energy density per unit of _mass,_ it's 
also got the _least_ energy density per unit of _volume._ A fifteen gallon tank 
of hydrogen gas, under any form of compression you'd want to be anywhere n
 ear, contains _far_ fewer hydrogen atoms than a fifteen gallon tank of 
gasoline.

Hydrogen is a great fuel...for rocket ships in space. Here on Earth? Forget it.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 23, 2015, at 9:10 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2015 at 1:08, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> 
>> Eventually people will wise up to the taxes, aka subsidies, needed to
>> support a fuel cell auto industry when they start wondering where
>> their tax payments are going.  Education will shorten that time. 
> 
> Watch out, that's a sharp two-edged sword.  If we're not careful, it'll 
> swing the other way, and cut off BEV subsidies too.

Any time anybody complains about subsidies going to electric vehicle 
manufacturers I just have to roll my eyes and ask about the auto industry 
bailout.

Same thing with solar energy and our military expenditures to ensure compliant 
regimes in oil-producing lands -- not to mention corporate welfare in general.

You want a level playing field? Look at what gasoline costs in Europe. How well 
do you think Detroit could compete with EVs if cheap gasoline was $8 / gallon?

...sorry, preaching to the choir, I know

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Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV  wrote:

> It seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2.  How 
> does the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane?

Exactly.

I'm sure the FCV has negligible _tailpipe_ emissions compared with one that 
runs on CNG or LNG.

But not only are both processes splitting hydrogen from carbon...I'm pretty 
sure you get many more miles (microns?) per hydrogen atom with CNG and LNG than 
you do with a fool cell.

Unless the carbon from the methane is being sequestered as part of the refining 
process, the fool cell is an environmental disaster. But, if it _is_ being 
sequestered...damn, that's an awful lot more energy! And again a catastrophic 
disaster compared with a BEV charged with rooftop solar panels.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 23, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> [T]his industry has put it into law that you can get
> credits for providing a zero-emission long range vehicle[]

I think it would make the contrast between BEVs and FCVs much starker if the 
requirement wasn't tailpipe emissions but well-to-wheel emissions.

In that case, FCVs have little hope of competing, since basically all of the 
hydrogen comes from mined hydrocarbons with said carbon being released into the 
atmosphere before the hydrogen is delivered to the vehicle. BEVs, on the other 
hand, can be entirely solar powered -- and many of those on the road already 
are.

The absolute best that a FCV can possibly hope for is to use solar power to 
analyze water and collect the hydrogen to power the car. Seen that way, it's 
obvious that the fool cell is in direct competition with a battery...and, given 
an hour of insolation on a square meter of panels, I just don't see a FCV going 
anywhere near as far on the resulting charge as a BEV.

Maybe somebody else has done (or knows) the math and could put some hard 
numbers to it? I'd be willing to eat my words.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> You should also watch Toyota’s new video which says the car can run on Elon
> Musk’s “bull$$it ”comments  and show how they can take cow manure, and
> process it to hydrogen.. all they have to do is add “steam and heat”.

I made as far as when he got to the refinery and said that they collect methane 
and then do shit to it.

Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- every 
vehicle with a "CNG" or "LNG" sticker on it is burning methane.

Anything further they do to the methane, by definition, will result in a loss 
of system efficiency.

At some point, the hydrocarbons are going to have to get oxidized. Your best 
bet is to do that with the minimum amount of prior processing and in the most 
efficient oxidizer you can get. In this case, that would mean using the methane 
to power a utility-scale turbine and charging the grid and EVs with the 
resulting electricity. A close second would be using it for hybrid ICE / 
electric rail locomotives. It _might_ be the case that burning the methane in a 
gasoline-style vehicle engine is more efficient than the electric generation to 
EV route...but more likely not.

What's guaranteed is that converting the methane to H2, compressing it, and 
using it to generate electricity in a small fuel cell to power an electric 
motor...is going to be horribly inefficient.

For it to make sense at all, there's going to have to be something inherently 
superior about the fuel cell engine as opposed to a comparable four-stroke 
methane-powered ICE such that you'd choose the fuel cell on its merits 
alone...and I'm hard pressed to think of anything overwhelming.

I'm sure there're niche situations where fuel cells make all kinds of sense, 
but that niche isn't to be found on the highways of the developed world.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Cmax solar concept.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 21, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

> I don't think any of the above are deal breakers, especially if the car can 
> automatically roll down it's windows while charging under full sun.

Yes, you're right. Those aren't the deal breaker.

The deal breaker is that you need a specialized carport in the first place.

It'd be far more efficient, cheaper, safer, and everything else to just put 
regular panels at their optimal orientation on the carport (or wherever) and 
forget about having your car emulate a giant ant in the spotlight of a 
magnifying glass.

If anything, this concept is a perfect illustration of the utter 
impracticability of self-contained solar vehicles as anything other than 
engineering challenges.

And, also, of the sheer brilliance of fixed rooftop solar power generation.

We don't expect gasoline-powered cars to carry their own drilling rigs and 
refineries, do we?

b&
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[EVDL] ~43% Of World's Electric Cars Bought In 2014 | CleanTechnica

[Ben Goren via EV]

I do believe this is what a tipping point looks like:

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/19/43-of-worlds-electric-cars-bought-in-2014/ 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-X Spied w/ a Tow Hitch AWD r:225mi (v)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 14, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> It is likely the Tesla cars can pull it just fine, but will probably
> overheat towing,  especially on hills.  Towing packages for trucks have all
> manner of extra cooling gear, for transmission, oil coolers, oversize
> radiators, and so on.  It is a simple application that is difficult in
> practice.

I'd like to think that Tesla isn't stupid enough to sell an SUV with a trailer 
hitch and insane power and torque...and inadequate cooling. Their engineers 
have gotten everything else right; I just can't see them overlooking something 
that basic.

I'll go out on a limb: if it comes from the factory with a trailer hitch, you 
can tow impossibly heavy loads all day long until the battery runs out -- which 
will take much less than all day with such a load, granted. If they don't put 
the hitch on at the factory, you'd best keep your eyes glued to the temperature 
gauge if you tow anything heavier than your red Radio Flyer, though people will 
still be impressed with how much they can get away with.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] EVLN: Tesla-S 85kWh> evfleetworld Road Test

[Ben Goren via EV]

No doubt the Tesla is an impressive car, but your first two points aren't all 
that impressive...

On Apr 14, 2015, at 6:49 AM, Mike Nickerson via EV  wrote:

>  -  Driving in the dark, the headlights are very impressive.  Go around a 
> corner and the car lights up around the corner.

My parents's '89 Lincoln Town Car does this. Flick the turn signal lever and an 
extra quasi-headlight lights up on that side. It also automatically turns the 
high beams on and off depending on oncoming traffic.

>  -  Turn on the wipers and they automatically adjust speed.  Light mist, slow 
> wipers.  Heavy downpour, fast wipers.

My parents's Town Car doesn't do that, but I remember driving a cheap rental in 
the '90s that did. I also remember it not adjusting the speed as well as I 
would have if I devoted my full attention to it; I imagine Tesla has it working 
better.

But congratulations on the purchase, and do enjoy the car!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-X Spied w/ a Tow Hitch AWD r:225mi (v)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 14, 2015, at 5:40 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> In any case, don’t get your hopes up too high on a truly versatile towing
> capacity because electric power isn’t similar to a traditional engine’s
> twist.

Huh?

Range questions aside, an electric vehicle with ~700 HP / ft-lbs should 
absolutely stomp all over anything else on the market. And with all of that 
torque there from a standing stop...I can't imagine how gas could possibly be 
any more "versatile" than that.

Hell, this thing should be able to tow the broken-down tow truck with the 
broken-down still-full pickup truck still on the flatbed.

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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 8, 2015, at 6:36 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> Nothing in his lab's list of peer-reviewed publications on this topic:
> 
> http://dailab.stanford.edu/pubs.htm

My friend was able to get me a copy of the Nature article.

The short version...is that I won't be replicating their work at home. However, 
I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be possible to make at home a battery 
that's not as good as what they made but still better than today's commercial 
batteries. I wouldn't bet more than a single beverage on that.

My back-of-the-envelope guesstimate from the abstract yesterday suggested a C 
value of ~60. I wasn't far off:

> Remarkably, the Al/graphitic-foam cell (in a pouch cell configuration) could 
> be charged and discharged at a current density up to 5,000 mA g21, about 75 
> times higher (that is, at a 75 C rate, ,1 min charge/discharge time) than the 
> Al/PG cell while maintaining a similar voltage profile and discharge capacity 
> (,60 mA h g21) (Figs 1b and 2b).

Another interesting tidbit:

> It was also found that this cell could be rapidly charged (at 5,000 mA g21, 
> in ,1 min) and gradually discharged (down to 100 mA g21, Fig. 2d and Extended 
> Data Fig. 9b) over ,34 min while maintaining a high capacity (,60 mA h g21).


The graphite foam was grown on a nickel foam scaffold. Making the electrolyte 
requires a vacuum oven and an argon-filled glove box. But, once you've got 
those ingredients (and some other stuff), "all" that's left:

> Pouch cells were assembled in the glove box using a graphitic-foam (,3 mg) 
> cathode and an Al foil (,70 mg) anode, which were separated by two layers of 
> glass fibre filter paper to prevent shorting. Polymer (0.1 mm 3 4 mm 3 5 mm) 
> coated Ni foils (0.09 mm 3 3 mm 3 60 mm in size; MTI corporation) were used 
> as current collectors for both anode and cathode. The electrolyte (,2 ml 
> prepared using AlCl3/[EMIm]Cl 5 1.3 by mole) was injected and the cell was 
> closed using a heat sealer.


My hope is that a less sophisticated carbon foam might suffice...which still 
leaves the question of the electrolyte. No clue on that front.

The concluding paragraph explains where the confusion over the various density 
figures came from:

> We have developed a new Al-ion battery using novel graphitic cathode 
> materials with a stable cycling life up to 7,500 charge/discharge cycles 
> without decay at ultrahigh current densities. The present Al/graphite battery 
> can afford an energy density of ,40 W h kg–1 (comparable to lead–acid and 
> Ni–MH batteries, with room for improvement by opti- mizing the graphitic 
> electrodes and by developing other novel cathode materials) and a high power 
> density, up to 3,000 W kg–1 (similar to super- capacitors). We note that the 
> energy/power densities were calculated on the basis of the measured ,65 mA h 
> g–1 cathode capacity and the mass of active materials in electrodes and 
> electrolyte. Such recharge- able Al ion batteries have the potential to be 
> cost effective and safe, and to have high power density.

So, this would seem to be of most interest to the racing crowd and of less 
interest to for general automotive use, at least in this initial iteration. 
Mobile devices will probably hugely benefit, especially power tools.

...assuming, of course, that manufacturing isn't a problem, and all the rest of 
those sorts of "gotchas"

b&
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[EVDL] Bosch uses UX approach to spark enthusiasm for electric driving - Putting people first

[Ben Goren via EV]

I really don't think I like the idea of where they're headed:

http://www.experientia.com/blog/bosch-uses-ux-approach-to-help-spark-enthusiasm-for-electric-driving/
 

One thing I think we can all agree upon here: if the "hunch mode"

http://www.bosch.com/boschglobal/userexperience/the-smart-way-to-get-around-town.php

winds up in a vehicle, it should only be enabled for fully-autonomous vehicles 
with the robot mode engaged.

It also points to the real reason y'all should be objecting to self-driving 
cars. Imagine if Google implemented something like that...the car ride would be 
one giant non-stop sales pitch trying to get you to pull off to whichever 
roadside attraction had written the biggest check to Google that hour.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Your needs may differ but, for me, unequivocally the charge time is more 
> important.

I'm not discounting the importance of charge time. It's just my understanding 
that the batteries today aren't the limiting factor in charging. Actually 
getting the current out of the wall without melting the wires and setting the 
house (or the charger or whatever) on fire.

It makes sense, too. Figure a car is going to need at least in the range of 
~50HP / 50 kW to have not absolutely pathetically anemic performance. If you've 
got a 50A circuit, you still need a kilovolt. If you've got a 250V outlet, you 
still need a 200A circuit. Either way, you're looking at something comparable 
to the main feed at the meter from the utility, just to keep up with the car's 
power potential. And, no, you're not typically driving full-throttle...but 
you're still drawing an awful lot of current on the freeway. If you want to 
charge as fast as you draw...you're going to need something that significantly 
outpaces the main line to your house.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> Time will tell if we soon will have a 1-minute rechargeable battery

...and a 1-minute *dischargeable* battery. That's probably an even bigger deal 
than the charge time.

Right now, charging times seem to be limited on all sorts of things other than 
battery chemistry -- at least, in the automotive world. I suppose cell phones 
may well be limited by chemistry.

>From what I can tell, typical batteries in today's EVs have discharge rates in 
>the single-digit C values, which limits their power output to about the same 
>as their ICE equivalents. But this is an order of magnitude more than that, 
>and twice what even A123 offers. If these're price-competitive with today's 
>batteries -- and, of course, if all these numbers actually hold up -- then 
>we're looking at econoboxes with batteries that would make Weyland and Garlits 
>and the rest drool.

Of course, the econoboxes wouldn't get the motors and controllers that could 
keep up with the batteries...but...well, for example, a battery like this might 
well be able to replace mechanical brakes by actually being able to absorb all 
the energy from an hard stop with regen. That would eliminate yet another 
component and its weight and complexity. I'm sure all sorts of other 
possibilities present themselves if these power numbers are real.

Like...mechanical recharging. Pull into the "gas" station with the wheels on a 
dyno. (Or, more realistically, something that coupled to the wheels / 
drivetrain without relying on the friction of rubber.) Line current (or battery 
banks or whatever) power the dyno; the car turns on full regen. If the car 
*did* have a dragster-capable motor / controller / whatever, you could thereby 
pump that megawatt into the batteries and, in three minutes, put 50 kWh into 
them. Yes, there'd be efficiency losses...but electricity is dirt cheap 
compared with gasoline, so people likely wouldn't care.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

[Ben Goren via EV]

I've no clue. I'm assuming they're making it using some sort of chemical 
reaction, presumably one not entirely unlike those ones chemistry teachers love 
to demonstrate with the carbon snakes boiling out of the beakers when they mix 
two colorless liquids.

...I think I'm going to see if the researchers answer their emails

b&

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:54 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> BTW,
> Are you capable of making three-dimensional graphitic-foam?
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via 
> EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:53 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
> 
> I do not have a Nature subscription
> but I looked at the abstract again and noticed the pictures underneath.
> Click on the first one, it shows the chemical formulas for the operation of 
> the cell
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:48 PM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
> 
> On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
>> the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase "intercalation of 
>> chloroaluminate anions in the graphite"
> 
> I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have 
> the full article?
> 
> I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full 
> article. I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody 
> who's in the industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, 
> that I'll be able to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure 
> out if _I_ could perhaps reverse-engineer it...
> 
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase "intercalation of 
> chloroaluminate anions in the graphite"

I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have 
the full article?

I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full article. 
I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody who's in the 
industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, that I'll be able 
to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure out if _I_ could 
perhaps reverse-engineer it...

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

[Ben Goren via EV]

If I have the back of the envelope right...if you make 100g cells, package 72 
of them together for a single 144-volt super-cell, and then parallel'd sixteen 
of them into a battery...just the battery bits (without packaging, wiring, or 
the like) would weigh ~250 pounds, it'd have about 16 kWh capacity...and it 
could put out 6400 amps for almost a megawatt of total power.

Something about that tells me it's gotta be too good to be true -- either I 
slipped a decimal or misinterpreted something or they're selling snake oil or 
_something._

But, if that's basically what this is...then I can see the NEDRA crowd being 
all over this.

Anybody have any experience with the substances they describe? How readily 
available are they, how nasty are they to work with, and so on...?

b&

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> Actually,
> the Nature article quotes 4 Amp per gram, so if a 2V cell weighs 1kg then it 
> could produce 4,000A or 8kW per kg
> 
> The Capacity is quoted as 70mAh per gram, which is 140 Wh per kg (again, at 
> the expected 2V cell voltage).
> 
> Note that all these numbers are the bare cell, so to compare with a CALB 
> 180Ah cell you'd either need to
> subtract the CALB's housing and connection hardware weight, or estimate how 
> much it would add to the Alu
> battery to make a similar rugged and packaged end product.
> By all accounts, it looks like very competitive to Li cells, but all research 
> takes many years before
> you can place an order for commercial available product...
> If it is really cheaper, better, safer, then we can see it break through 
> sooner.
> Time will tell.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:59 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
> 
> Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per 
> kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need 
> more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve 
> the cells, of course.
> 
> Bill 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to 
> conventional batteries
> 
> Does anybody know any more about this research?
> 
> http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 
> 
> Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.
> 
> It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all 
> about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how 
> much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand 
> charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is 
> bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show 
> the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.
> 
> I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a 
> super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast 
> discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the reach 
> of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally 
> flexible.
> 
> In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself, 
> at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles, 
> then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.
> 
> Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?
> 
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

[Ben Goren via EV]

Indeed...I just checked the abstract and it cites 70 mAh/g. It's an unfair 
comparison because of all the extra hardware from the box and what-not, but a 
CALB 180 Ah battery weighs 5.6 kg, which works out to 32 mAh/g. That they're in 
the same order of magnitude tells me this may well be competitive...if it's not 
snake oil

b&

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV  wrote:

> You may be confusing power and energy
> On Apr 7, 2015 2:59 PM, "Bill Dennis via EV"  wrote:
> 
>> Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
>> kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need
>> more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve
>> the cells, of course.
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Re: [EVDL] Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 7, 2015, at 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> The Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial is the tire used by solar racing teams.  
> Anyone know where to get them?

I'd first directly contact one of the teams that you know used said tire and 
ask them where they got theirs.

Next, Michelin should have a customer service number where they can tell you 
which dealers typically stock them.

But, if those both turn out to be dead ends, any national tire chain should 
have no trouble ordering pretty much any tire for you. They're not necessarily 
going to be the absolute cheapest source, but chances are good that any premium 
you might pay is going to be both minimal compared with other sources and well 
in line with how much time you'd personally have to spend chasing down any 
source, let alone a cheaper one.

I've had lots of great luck with Discount Tire over the years such that they're 
the only ones I go to for anything. Their warranty service is superlative.

They'll also get you wheels to fit the tires

b&
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[EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

[Ben Goren via EV]

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all 
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how 
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand charge 
cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is bendable, in 
what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show the battery 
being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a super-fast 
charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast discharge rate. It 
gives the appearance of being technology within the reach of an hobbyist to 
manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself, at 
home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles, then to 
stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 6, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Chris Tromley via EV  wrote:

> ​I more or less agree with what you're ​saying - as long as there is still
> a choice.

To be clear: I am most emphatically _*NOT*_ suggesting that all vehicles, or 
even all new vehicles be roboticized.

I'm just suggesting that there're an awful lot of people who do or should want 
robot cars and that everybody on the road will benefit from such automation.

And if you think that there's really a chance that non-robotic cars will be 
banned...well, just look at guns for comparison. That industry is a tiny 
pittance compared to the automotive industry, and _far_ more people drive and 
own cars than own guns. Whatever your stand on gun rights...it should be 
obvious that any attempts to ban non-robotic cars would fail far more 
spectacularly than recent attempts to ban guns.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 6, 2015, at 5:08 PM, Chris Tromley via EV  wrote:

> And there is no AI system sufficiently advanced to make the right
> decision in every case.

Your objections are a classic example of making the perfect the enemy of the 
good.

In order to improve traffic safety, self-driving cars don't have to be perfect; 
they only have to be better than the average human.

And they're already there, especially when you consider that the average human 
is too-often tired, distracted, drunk, or whatever. Even if everybody in the 
car is drunk, asleep, texting, legally blind, under the age of ten, or all of 
the above...the car is still going to drive itself more safely than most humans 
will when taking the driving test from the DMV.

Again, it won't be perfect. It'll just be far, far superior to humans.

As to who'll pay when self-driving cars crash...I'm sure it'll be the insurance 
companies. They'll be quite thrilled with them, as they'll be able to give 
"significant" discounts on insurance plans and simultaneously make insane 
profits because the'll be paying out far less with self-driving cars than with 
humans. That is, their expenses will drop to a negligible fraction of what they 
are today even as their income drops not even as much as the advertising lingo 
of "up to 15%!"

In math...today you might pay them $100 / period and cost them, on average over 
all drivers, $50. You get a self-driving car, and you now pay them $85...but 
now you only cost them $5 at most. They've more than doubled their profits.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 6, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
wrote:

> Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence 
> program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and 
> automatically vote for them in elections.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but there's a world of 
difference between electoral politics and transportation.

Do you think people who take taxis or use public transit don't have any 
interest in voting?

If you're taking a taxi or a bus, why would you care if the driver is human or 
robotic?

Would you be okay having a chauffeur drive you in your own car?

If so, would you care if the chauffeur is human or robotic?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 6, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions via EV 
 wrote:

> The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun 
> and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit

Even a robotic taxi? For example, in a city you've flown to?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 6, 2015, at 8:10 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> Don't know if this is the actual case, but I think it would
> be easy for the management at Tesla to develop group think, forgetting that
> most U.S. citizens don't live in silicon valley and work in high tech, and
> overestimating the appeal and acceptance of such features as self-driving as
> a result.

I think the overwhelming majority -- near unanimity, in fact -- would 
absolutely love a self-driving car. Even those who enjoy driving...there're 
still be times they'll want / need to take a phone call, be too tired / drunk 
to safely drive, and so on. Most commuters would, I'm sure, rather watch TV or 
get caught up on email or post something on MyFaceTwit or whatever than have to 
make life-or-death decisions about how to maneuver a two-ton hunk of metal and 
glass and plastic with themselves caged within.

Will they trust current technology? Could they afford current technology? 
Those're different questions.

But the desire most emphatically exists.

Just look at all the idiots on the road shaving or putting on makeup or texting 
or yakking on the phone...each and every one of those would much rather _not_ 
be driving.

b&
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[EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes

[Ben Goren via EV]

Food for thought:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyanwyl/2015/04/02/evidence-of-forces-behind-the-tesla-factor-at-this-weeks-new-york-auto-show/?ss=tech
 

I tend to think he's right.

I also think that the first long-haul trucking company to adopt self-driving 
rigs will thereby become the dominant force in that industry.

Sure feels like we're at the cusp of a phase change, when all sorts of little 
things add up in a big and surprising way.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Renters hit roadblocks to get EVSE installed, help from eVgo

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 5, 2015, at 3:40 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> Renters have a hard time finding electric charging stations in their
> apartment buildings.

In a way, these sorts of growing pains are a good sign. It means that EV 
adoption is penetrating to the point that it's not just a few crazy nutjobs 
kludging together frankencars out of spare parts, but rather that regular 
people are buying and driving regular cars that just happen to be electric, 
_and_ they're doing them in numbers that are presenting logistical challenges 
that nobody has put much thought into before.

Once upon a time indoor plumbing was a luxury; today, it's inconceivable to 
have a dwelling without it. Same thing with electric lighting, then 
standardized wall outlets for appliances, telephone, and so on.

And, just as no apartment complex today could survive without cable / satellite 
/ whatever TV hookups in every apartment, it won't be all that long before it's 
a given that every parking stall in those complexes has a plug.

For that matter, adoption patterns will likely follow those of cable TV. 
Upscale ones will leap on it as an incentive to entice and retain tenants (for 
a suitable but surprisingly low fee, of course, that might or might not get 
folded into the rent). Midrange complexes with pretensions of being upscale 
will be next. Eventually, economy complexes will do it just so they don't get 
compared with slums.

...but, of course, that's cold comfort to the early EV adopters themselves who 
want to plug in at home but can't get their stupid landlord to let them. Sucks 
that they're going to have to move to find a landlord with a clue...but said 
landlord is going to be quite happy to welcome the new tenants, and the old 
landlord is going to have to fill that vacancy

b&
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Re: [EVDL] article: World’s first 1 megawatt all-electric race car to compete at Pikes Peak

[Ben Goren via EV]

Sorry -- I was referring to them seem to really be building a real race car, 
not attempting to verify their claims to bragging rights. The megawatt bit, 
honestly, didn't even register

b&

On Apr 2, 2015, at 6:15 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV  wrote:

> Really?  I was pretty sure the title of "first megawatt all-electric race 
> car" went to the Maniac Mazda over a decade ago...
> 
> -Ben
> 
> On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
> 
>> Seems reasonably legit. Nothing about it seems unreasonable.
>> 
>> http://driveeo.com/blog/racing/eo-pp03-one-megawatt-electric-race-car/
>> 
>> The "pp03" refers to "Pike's Peak #3," and they ran it last year and the 
>> year before:
>> 
>> http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp02/
>> 
>> http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp01/
>> 
>> b&
>> 
>> On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Paul Wujek via EV  wrote:
>> 
>>> It's April 1, so maybe this is true:
>>> 
>>> http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/04/worlds-first-1-megawatt-all-electric-race-car-to-compete-at-pikes-peak/
>>> -- 
>>> *Paul Wujek*  about <http://goo.gl/3jnMdX>
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] article: World’s first 1 megawatt all-electric race car to compete at Pikes Peak

[Ben Goren via EV]

Seems reasonably legit. Nothing about it seems unreasonable.

http://driveeo.com/blog/racing/eo-pp03-one-megawatt-electric-race-car/

The "pp03" refers to "Pike's Peak #3," and they ran it last year and the year 
before:

http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp02/

http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp01/

b&

On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Paul Wujek via EV  wrote:

> It's April 1, so maybe this is true:
> 
> http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/04/worlds-first-1-megawatt-all-electric-race-car-to-compete-at-pikes-peak/
> -- 
> *Paul Wujek*  about 
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 31, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Jan Steinman via EV  wrote:

> Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a 
> stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small 
> minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are 
> undeveloped.

I wouldn't challenge you on that.

I'd just suggest that that's about as niche as niche gets

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go 
> completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the power 
> company.

I don't have batteries yet and no plans to install them until the finances tip 
sufficiently...considering I'm grandfathered with respect to SRP's new 
exorbitant solar-killing rate plan, that'll be some years.

> But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the power 
> company but not sustained power.

This is indeed the use case I believe Tesla has in mind for their initial 
markets. Buy their batteries even if you don't have onsite generation; fill the 
batteries off peak when electricity is cheap and drain them on peak when 
electricity is expensive. Depending on how the math works out, you could see 
the capital expense repaid in short order with pure profits afterwards. And 
it'll dramatically increase the market for such batteries, driving down prices 
and all the rest.

> Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy dark 
> days where solar PVs will be next to worthless.

Many places as dire as you describe also have provisions for home heating oil 
or natural gas other energy inputs that could trivially be adapted to power a 
generator for a while. And, until batteries get big and cheap enough, it'll 
likely make sense even here in Arizona to have a small generator to tide over a 
couple days of winter weather now and again. As a bonus...such a generator 
really can be minimal. It doesn't need to meet peak demands, but only average 
demands and let the batteries handle the peaks.

> My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build 
> pumped storage instead of coal or nukes.

I strongly suspect you're right.

But *my* claim is that at least some individuals (and companies like SolarCity) 
already today stand to make more profit with rooftop solar and batteries than 
with anything the utilities can offer, and that the number of such individuals 
will climb rapidly as battery prices fall until, eventually, nobody's left who 
wants to by _any_ power the utility might want to sell -- pumped storage or no.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for 
> electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from 
> building out new traditional power plants.

Your analysis passes the "sniff test" for me from previous experience...but, in 
a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from rooftop solar and batteries of 
the type we're being told will be in the Chevy 
B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla is strongly 
hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory.

With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power companies 
want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer has any need for 
the grid at all.

My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that way. 
People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered for at least 
a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. Everybody else...will be 
paying almost as much as they'd be paying without solar thanks to their new 
rate structure.

They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now and the 
time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change and become the 
leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of rooftop solar as well as 
home batteries (sell it for the benefits of the homeowner, profit from a claim 
on so much power it stores at the utility's whim). Instead, they've signed 
their own corporate suicide pact.

Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those with 
capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely rather than 
stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery is already cheaper 
than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so lose...well, the money they 
used to be getting from that customer now has to get spread across the 
remaining customers, with their rates exponentially increasing as it becomes 
more and more profitable for more and more people to drop off the grid.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> So called small wind energy is a money pit with no
> real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be
> worth the effort.

Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, they 
can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics.

However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape concentrates 
either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a superlative local 
source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to hide in those same climates.

Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially indispensable 
in their relative niches.

Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and the wind 
niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain passes. Another 
interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a single individual 
turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating capacities, but really big 
numbers of them can be put in in a way that doesn't interfere with growing 
crops and, in so doing, significantly increase the economic productivity of the 
land for the farmers.

Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very few 
people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain people...just 
not for most.)

Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically everywhere, 
including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in some places than 
others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few footnotes, of course).

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> I am sure that he won't start until things are clearer for him and he is 
> getting
> our input for just that - advice in which direction to go.

Well...in that case, my advice would be an awful lot of budgeting -- energy, 
weight, money, time, and everything else.

Start with the Stella as an assumption of a best-case scenario.

You should be able to find or guess all the important facts.

How much does it weigh? How much would it cost to build an one-off carbon fiber 
structure of that weight? If you haven't built anything with carbon fiber, call 
up a shop that specializes in it and ask them for a ballpark figure of what 
they'd charge you and run with that number. Yes, you'd be able to do it 
cheaper...but only assuming you do it perfect the first time, so run with their 
number.

The surface area of the panels should be known. Use that figure to spec out the 
highest-output lightest-weight moldable panels you can find...and don't be 
surprised when _that_ cost is close to if not more than what your mortgage 
statement reads.

You've got weight and energy in; from there, you can calculate power 
requirements and how close the panels come to meeting them. For the generation, 
take the standard figures for rooftop solar, make sure that the installation 
angle of the calculator you use is horizontal, and knock off at least another 
10% due to even worse geometry and the like.

At this point, you're already looking at a project that costs six figures 
easily and likely, even on paper, doesn't go as fast nor as far as you want it 
to. So, if you want to keep pursuing the project, work on those bits. Once 
you've got that much solved, then you're ready to start moving on to more 
mundane things like motors and batteries and the like.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 30, 2015, at 3:06 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> But overall, the amount of power you can get from the sun in a normal-sized 
> is very limited. That pretty much forces you to concentrate on vehicle 
> efficiency. Extremely light, with exceptionally good aerodynamics and very 
> high efficiency components (tires, motor, controller, etc. At least, that's 
> how the solar cars have all done it.

Exactly...and that means cutting edge high tech stuff that takes lots of money 
and years of education and experience and, realistically, a sizable team of 
top-notch people to pull off. Not a single guy who's asking the kinds of 
questions Lawrence is.

>> For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a
>> flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on
>> the pathological for aerodynamics.
> 
> It works well for airplane wing, though. :-)

Yes...well...um...my point, exactly...? An airplane wing without an airplane is 
a pretty good description of a crash investigation scene

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:49 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best.  I 
> wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on.

There's a big part of me that wants to wish him the best with the project...but 
there's an even bigger part that's screaming at me that he's in way over his 
head and has no clue what he's getting himself into. Things like what appear to 
be ignorance of basic automotive engineering concepts (like a differential) and 
aerodynamics (his idea of using lift to make the car seem lighter) and power 
(not understanding how much energy a vehicle needs) and optics (his idea of 
lining the seat headrests with panels) and more.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing just has "fail" plastered all over it, and I'd 
love to see him put his enthusiasm towards something he's not guaranteed to 
fail at.

Lawrence? May I suggest?

Ditch this project. Put it out of your mind. If you ever get to the point that 
you have what it takes to see it through, you'll know it because you'll have 
all the details already worked out in your head.

Instead...work on building yourself a practical electric vehicle, not solar, 
but a direct replacement for your current vehicle or one you wish you had. And 
not something with the thought that you might make it solar later, 
either...just a garden-variety conversion of a regular car. A VW Bug would be a 
great candidate, and a Karmann Ghia even better.

Once you've made yourself a normal electric vehicle, _then_ you can start to 
think about what you might want to do in the next one...and, also, by then, 
chances are superlative that you'll realize just how impractical this solar 
project really is.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> I am able to reduce my foot print and I chose to do that using
> an EV and buying green electricity...

That's why, when I put a bunch of panels on my roof some years back, I 
intentionally oversized it so I could power an EV and still not need net 
energy. Still working on the EV solution (though it's closer every day), but my 
(substantial) net surplus almost makes up for the carbon emissions from the 
miles I drive.

...in that sense, you can _almost_ suggest that my '68 VW Westfalia with its 
1600cc gasoline engine is solar powered, but I wouldn't actually go that far

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't 
> large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the 
> day, you "top off" enough to get home.

...and then, when it's cloudy...you're stuck at work. Or you only drive the 
vehicle when the forecaster says there'll be enough sun for you to be able to 
get home and hope there aren't any freak storms that develop.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short 
> drives) and can be parked in full sun
> 
> (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can 
> gain charge over time, about 5 hours
> 
> (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh 
> harvested each day.

...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car 
like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over 
that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, 
and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as 
well, and so on.

The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is 
for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. 
(Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering 
students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful 
general-purpose vehicles).

...and, even if you are the nomad type...you're probably still better 
off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a 
tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days 
while you recharge for the next few hours of driving.

Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either.

You know...there's another way to look at it.

All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. 
Animals eat the plants.

Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low 
power objects compared to high-speed vehicles.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the 
> expected PV efficiency,
> then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* 
> be an extreme car
> to achieve any speed or range.

...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters 
a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the 
maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy.

You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the 
light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for 
an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is 
at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun.

For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top 
parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for 
aerodynamics.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 27, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Roland via EV  wrote:

> The maximum battery running temperature was 68 degrees F 

Just to be clear...you're reporting the weather, right? You're telling us that, 
during the time you used the car that you're telling us about, the battery 
never heated above 68°F, and *not* that Nissan has specified that thou shalt 
not let the batteries heat to over 68°F?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric Bigfoot #20 @2015 VIAS.ca

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 27, 2015, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> Zero-emission monster truck can stomp with the best of the them 

I've never gotten the monster truck thing...but is is good for EVs in general. 
Anything that get somebody afflicted with testosterone poisoning to end an 
article with:

> This is the real deal. Electric. Powerful. Very Wicked. Guaranteed to give
> you even more thrills than the “other” now, old fashioned monster trucks.
> 
> I’ve been converted. Besides, I’ve always liked the quiet powerful types.

is good for EVs.

Get those with testosterone and passion for all things vehicular to see 
electric as the "must-have" feature for the ultimate in power and 
bad-assery...and you've just created the perfect wave of...well, not exactly 
early adopters, but leading enthusiasts.

Y'all know all those "puffy" vehicles that're somehow supposed to convey 
manliness while looking like the archetypal grossly obese Walmart shopper? I 
bet some oversized batteries and motors would make them even manlier.

Just like they did to this "Bigfoot #20."

b&
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