Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > That's identical to the scenario I posited before, where you expect to be > teleported to Barcelona, but unbeknownst to you, you may also have been > duplicated in Paris. > ​John Clark expected to end up in

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

That's identical to the scenario I posited before, where you expect to be teleported to Barcelona, but unbeknownst to you, you may also have been duplicated in Paris. Therefore, you must agree after all that the question is not gibberish from the first-person perspective, even if you think it's

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​ ​> ​ > If I asked you last night where you expect to wake up, that's not a > gibberish question. > ​True, it's not gibberish. The question is clear, it's about what I expect not what will turn out to be true. I

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 4:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​It contradicts nothing. We're not talking about the H-person, you're >> complaining that neither the Moscow Man nor the Washington Man could >> ​ ​ >> have made a prediction, and they couldn't because *they didn't exist >>

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 4:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > ​> >>> ​>>​ >>> ​That it turns out the the H-man didn't see Moscow. >>> ​ ​ >>> We agree that the M-man see M, but the H-man was unable to predict that >>> he would specifically feel to be the one in Washington. >> >> > ​

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sep 5, 2017 6:08 PM, "John Clark" wrote: On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > let's add a twist. In Helsinki, you're told that you'll be merely > teleported to Barcelona, as before. However, unbeknownst to you, a >

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 05 Sep 2017, at 18:19, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 4:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​That it turns out the the H-man didn't see Moscow.​ ​We agree that the M-man see M, but the H-man was unable to predict that he would specifically feel to be the

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 05 Sep 2017, at 18:14, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 4:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Of course they couldn't have figured out which one before the duplication, they couldn't figure out ANYTHING before the duplication because they didn't exist before

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-05 21:49 GMT+02:00 Terren Suydam : > > > On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 1:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Terren Suydam >> wrote: >> >> ​> ​ >>> Right now I'm only concerned with the

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-06 0:13 GMT+02:00 John Clark : > On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> You can insist with all the bad faith you have (and you have more than >> plenty), > > > ​Hey Quentin I have a great idea, go fuck yourself. >

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: ​> ​ > You can insist with all the bad faith you have (and you have more than > plenty), ​Hey Quentin I have a great idea, go fuck yourself. John K Clark ​ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > let's add a twist. In Helsinki, you're told that you'll be merely > teleported to Barcelona, as before. However, unbeknownst to you, a > duplicate of you will also be created in Paris. This creates a situation

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 at 1:52 am, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:35 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> It seems that you have no problem with 1:1 duplication - you agree that >> you survive, just as if you had travelled by plane.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 1:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Right now I'm only concerned with the present, the ongoing flow of >> experience. It doesn't sound like you have any issue

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-05 18:14 GMT+02:00 John Clark : > On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 4:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> > > > Of course they couldn't have figured out which one before the >>> duplication, they couldn't figure out ANYTHING before the duplication >>> because

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 4:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > That it turns out the the H-man didn't see Moscow. > ​ ​ > We agree that the M-man see M, but the H-man was unable to predict that he > would specifically feel to be the one in Washington. > ​Gibberish.​ ​> ​ > That

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 4:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Of course they couldn't have figured out which one before the >> duplication, they couldn't figure out ANYTHING before the duplication >> because they didn't exist before the duplication! > > ​> ​ > This contradicts

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:35 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > It seems that you have no problem with 1:1 duplication - you agree that > you survive, just as if you had travelled by plane. > ​Certainly. And if you put me on a plane and I asked "Where is this plane going,

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 05 Sep 2017, at 04:31, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​With mechanism, we have to listen to all the copies.What you say is contradicted by all your copies. ​Is that it? Is that all you've got to say? It was a long post,

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 05 Sep 2017, at 04:26, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​They both say that the reconstitution has been enough good for them, and both agree that among the W and the M experiences, they live only one of them, and that they

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 at 12:26 pm, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > >> ​> ​ >> They both say that the reconstitution has been enough good for them, and >> both agree that among the W and the M experiences, they

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > With mechanism, we have to listen to all the copies.What you say is > contradicted by all your copies. > ​Is that it? Is that all you've got to say? It was a long post, what exactly was contradicted by ANY of the

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> ​ > They both say that the reconstitution has been enough good for them, and > both agree that among the W and the M experiences, they live only one of > them, and that they could not have figure out which one before

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 04 Sep 2017, at 19:25, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​Right now I'm only concerned with the present, the ongoing flow of experience. It doesn't sound like you have any issue with the idea that someone who gets

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

John, With mechanism, we have to listen to all the copies. What you say is contradicted by all your copies. Bruno On 04 Sep 2017, at 19:12, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​​>>​> ​But 3-1 you + 3-1 you = 2 3-1-you​ yes indeed. The

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > Right now I'm only concerned with the present, the ongoing flow of > experience. It doesn't sound like you have any issue with the idea that > someone who gets physically reconstituted would experience

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​ >>> ​>>​ >>> > ​But 3-1 you + 3-1 you = 2 3-1-you >>> ​ >>> yes indeed. The key point is that 1-you + 1-you can give only one 1-you >>> (+ a 3-1- >>> ​ >>> >> >> ​ >> ​>> ​ >> Homemade babytalk. > > ​> ​ > Not at

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 12:20 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Just trying to agree on a starting point. The only point of the >> teleporter is to establish that there's an unbroken stream of

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 01 Sep 2017, at 19:02, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​​So if each of them is the Helsinki person, and if each sees a different city, and if 1+1 is still equal to 2 ,then you tell me, how many cities did the Helsinki

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > Just trying to agree on a starting point. The only point of the teleporter > is to establish that there's an unbroken stream of consciousness as one is > physically reconstituted in another city. > ​ Because

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 3:10 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Let's dumb it down and forget about prediction and rationality for the >> moment. Let's say instead of making two copies,

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >> ​So if each of them is the Helsinki person, and if each sees a different >> city, and if 1+1 is still equal to 2 ,then you tell me, how many cities did >> the Helsinki person end up seeing? > > > ​>> ​ > That has

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 31 Aug 2017, at 20:36, David Nyman wrote: On 31 Aug 2017 18:52, "Terren Suydam" wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 7:19 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 Terren Suydam wrote: ​>​>> ​ ​All that's

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 31 Aug 2017, at 21:10, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​Let's dumb it down and forget about prediction and rationality for the moment. Let's say instead of making two copies, we're just dealing with a teleporter

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 31 Aug 2017, at 18:39, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​​>> ​If he's about to enter the machine but hasn't yet done so then you're simulating the Helsinki man. The simulation shows that IF the Helsinki man is rational (and

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > Let's dumb it down and forget about prediction and rationality for the > moment. Let's say instead of making two copies, we're just dealing with a > teleporter that destroys you in Helsinki and duplicates you

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 31 Aug 2017 18:52, "Terren Suydam" wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 7:19 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 Terren Suydam wrote: > > >> ​> ​>> ​ ​ All that's necessary is to imagine or simulate

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 7:19 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 Terren Suydam wrote: > > >> ​> ​>> ​ ​ All that's necessary is to imagine or simulate the first person perspective of the one who gets duplicated.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 4:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> *"What one and only one city will YOU see after YOU have been duplicated >> and become two?"* > > > ​> ​ > That question is gibberish, because it lacks the key precision needed. > ​BULLSHIT! Stripped of its

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> If he's about to enter the machine but hasn't yet done so then you're >> simulating the Helsinki man. The simulation shows that IF the Helsinki man >> is rational (and he might not be especially on matters

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Aug 2017, at 17:23, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​The ​thought experiment ​asks the question ​"what one and only one city will YOU see after YOU have been duplicated and become two?", so of course the meaning of

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 31 Aug 2017, at 01:19, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 Terren Suydam wrote: ​>​>> ​ ​All that's necessary is to imagine or simulate the first person perspective of the one who gets duplicated. ​​>> ​Which ​ONE ​"THE​ first person perspective​" is

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 Terren Suydam wrote: > ​> >>> ​>> ​ >>> ​ >>> All that's necessary is to imagine or simulate the first person >>> perspective of the one who gets duplicated. >>> >> >> ​ >> ​>> ​ >> Which ​ONE >> >> ​"*THE​* >> first person perspective >> ​" is ​

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:06 PM, John Clark wrote: > > >> ​> ​ >> All that's necessary is to imagine or simulate the first person >> perspective of the one who gets duplicated. >> > > ​Which ​ONE > > ​"*THE​* > first person perspective > ​" is ​ > Terren Suydam > ​

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >>> The ​thought experiment >>> ​asks the question ​"what one and only one city will YOU see after YOU >>> have been duplicated and become two?", so of course the meaning of the >>> personal pronoun in the question is

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Aug 2017, at 03:06, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 , Terren Suydam wrote: your point, over and over again, is about the limitations of pronouns in the presence of a duplicating machine. ​Yes.​ ​> ​True enough, but irrelevant. The ​thought

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

John, your point, over and over again, is about the limitations of pronouns in the presence of a duplicating machine. True enough, but irrelevant. Pronouns aren't necessary to see the point of the thought experiment. All that's necessary is to imagine or simulate the first person perspective of

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > OK. The "helsinki man" has become 2, and the question was on its first > person experience possible, > ​It never changes, it's the same shit over and over and over again, the one Helsinki man has became two

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 25 Aug 2017, at 20:46, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​​>> ​Then who will be the judge to determine​ ​what the name of the one and only one city ​the Helsinki man ended up seeing? ​> ​The Helsinki man. ​I know it's not

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> Then who will be the judge to determine >> ​ ​ >> what the name of the one and only one city ​the Helsinki man ended up >> seeing? > > > ​> ​ > The Helsinki man. > ​I know it's not Helsinki but what is the

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 23 Aug 2017, at 23:58, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>>​the copies could not ask anything because they didn't exist yesterday. ​> ​No. It is always the "third person" who will ask all question, to the Helsinki man, and

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 at 8:07 am, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > ​> ​ >> If I say, "when you see the light turn red, stop walking", the "you" >> refers to anyone who hears the sentence. >> > > ​"You" could be

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > If I say, "when you see the light turn red, stop walking", the "you" > refers to anyone who hears the sentence. > ​"You" could be replaced by " Stathis ​ or John or Bruno or..." and continue on until every human on

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>>​ >> the copies could not ask anything because they didn't exist yesterday. > > > > ​> ​ > No. It is always the "third person" who will ask all question, to the > Helsinki man, and to the copies. > ​Then who will be the

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 at 1:03 am, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 11:11 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Even without duplication, there is no rigid 1:1 connection between >> pronouns and proper nouns. > > > ​ > Of course there

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 23 Aug 2017, at 18:03, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 4:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>​>>​ ​To get the first person views, you need to tell me which copy you ask the question, ​>> ​Good god​, do I really have to spell this out?​​!​ I didn't ask either

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 4:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> >>> ​>>​ >>> ​To get the first person views, you need to tell me which copy you ask >>> the question, >> >> > ​>> ​ >> Good god >> ​, do I really have to spell this out?​ >> ​!​ >> I didn't ask either copy >> ​.​ >> >

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 11:11 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > Even without duplication, there is no rigid 1:1 connection between > pronouns and proper nouns. ​ Of course there is, or rather there should be. Sometimes i ​n​ very bad writing there is a long convoluted

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 9:13 am, John Clark wrote: > > ​Today the day after the experiment was completed ask Mr. W 2 questions: > > 1) Are you ​Bruno Marchal? > 2) Do you see W? > > And then ask Mr. M 2 questions: > > 1) Are you ​Bruno Marchal? > 2) Do you see M? > > If

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >> I don't what another paragraph of bafflegab! You claim "What is the name >> of the one and only one city I will end up seeing after I became two?" is a >> real >> ​ >> > > ​> ​ > ... is a real question. yes.

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 22 Aug 2017, at 01:52, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​now the experiment is over and with the benefit of all the new​ ​found knowledge you've gained from it I just want to know your new improved answer to the

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 at 10:00 am, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > >> ​>​ >> Which one and only one outcome will I see when I toss the coin? >> > > ​I can't tell you today, but tomorrow after the flip I > 'll be able

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​>​ > Which one and only one outcome will I see when I toss the coin? > ​I can't tell you today, but tomorrow after the flip I 'll be able to say what the correct answer would have been. ​So it was a real question with a real

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >> now the experiment is over and with the benefit of all the new >> ​ ​ >> found knowledge you've gained from it I just want to know your new >> improved answer to the question "What is the name of the one and only

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 at 8:39 am, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > ​> ​ While the outcome is certain for you, it is not certain for me. >>> >>> ​That's because the meaning of the personal pronoun "me" will

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ >>> While the outcome is certain for you, it is not certain for me. >>> >> >> ​That's because the meaning of the personal pronoun "me" will always be >> uncertain in ​a world that contains "me" duplicating machines. >> >>

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 at 8:12 am, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at , Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > >> ​> ​>>​ ​ Why does this make the question not a question? >>> >>> >>> ​>>​ >>> ​Because the string of words with a question

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at , Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > ​> >>> ​>>​ >>> ​ >>> Why does this make the question not a question? >> >> >> ​>>​ >> ​Because the string of words with a question mark at the end was "What is >> the name of the one and only one city I will see after

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 21 Aug 2017, at 18:59, Telmo Menezes wrote: Bruno, sorry for the delay as usual -- I really appreciate your replies but life gets in the way... I understand. No problem. On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Aug 2017, at 01:46, Telmo

Re: A profound lack of profundity

Bruno, sorry for the delay as usual -- I really appreciate your replies but life gets in the way... On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 13 Aug 2017, at 01:46, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > On Sat 12. Aug 2017 at 03:12, Bruce Kellett

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 21 Aug 2017, at 01:49, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​1-you​ = Homemade Baby Talk.​ ​> ​1-you refer to your subjective, first person, experience. ​And ​your subjective first person, experience​ refers to the1-you.

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 21 August 2017 at 11:16, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > ​> ​ >> There are two people after the event, > > > ​Yes. > ​ > > >> ​> ​ >> and each has his own answer about which one and only one city he sees, > >

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 21 August 2017 at 11:08, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 , Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > >> ​> ​ >> While the outcome is certain for you, it is not certain for me. >> > > ​That's because the meaning of the personal pronoun "me" will always

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > There are two people after the event, ​Yes. ​ > ​> ​ > and each has his own answer about which one and only one city he sees, ​Yes.​ > ​>​ > Why does this make the question not a question? ​Because the string

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 , Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > ​> ​ > While the outcome is certain for you, it is not certain for me. > ​That's because the meaning of the personal pronoun "me" will always be uncertain in ​a world that contains "me" duplicating machines. > ​> ​ >

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 21 August 2017 at 09:49, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > ​>> ​ >>> 1-you >>> ​ = Homemade Baby Talk.​ >>> >> >> ​> ​ >> 1-you refer to your subjective, first person, experience. >> > > ​And ​ > your

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >> 1-you >> ​ = Homemade Baby Talk.​ >> > > ​> ​ > 1-you refer to your subjective, first person, experience. > ​And ​ your subjective first person, experience ​ refers to the1-you. And round and round we go.​

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 at 2:27 am, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Let me explain the bet more clearly. I will be duplicated tomorrow in >> Moscow and Washington. I have $1 in my pocket, and

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > Let me explain the bet more clearly. I will be duplicated tomorrow in > Moscow and Washington. I have $1 in my pocket, and this will be duplicated > with me. (Assume this is legal provided that the money is

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 18 Aug 2017, at 21:05, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​I tire of your homemade baby talk. ​ ​> ​Insult = lack of argument. 1-you​ = Homemade Baby Talk.​ 1-you refer to your subjective, first person, experience. It

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 at 6:20 am, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​>> ​ >>> Today before the duplication there is only one >>> ​"I"​ >>> but tomorrow after the duplication there will be two, therefore

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​>> ​ >> Today before the duplication there is only one >> ​"I"​ >> but tomorrow after the duplication there will be two, therefore >> ​it​ >> is not a question >> ​,​ >> it is just a sequence of words that follow

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> ​>> ​ >> I tire of your homemade baby talk. ​ > > > ​> ​ > Insult = lack of argument. > 1-you ​ = Homemade Baby Talk.​ But I know you love homemade acronyms too so perhaps you prefer HBT. ​ >> ​>> ​ >> All that is

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 at 1:30 am, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 12:00 AM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> There is a problem with asking "which one place will John Clark be in >> tomorrow", because there will be two of them, in two

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 18 Aug 2017, at 17:29, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 12:00 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​There is a problem with asking "which one place will John Clark be in tomorrow", because there will be two of them, in two different places. ​True. Today

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 18 Aug 2017, at 18:02, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​If we were able to say in "Helsinki" which one the "1- you" ​ [...]​ I tire of your homemade baby talk. ​ Insult = lack of argument. Of course, if the 1p-3p

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > If we were able to say in "Helsinki" which one the "1-you" > ​ [...]​ > I tire of your homemade baby talk. ​ > ​> ​ > The pronoun used in Helsinki makes perfect sense > ​ Today in in Helsinki the personal

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 12:00 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > There is a problem with asking "which one place will John Clark be in > tomorrow", because there will be two of them, in two different places. > ​True. Today before the duplication there is only one "John

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 16 Aug 2017, at 21:54, John Clark wrote: ​Bruno Marchal wrote:​ >> What ONE thing will the ONE rat see in the future after the ONE rat becomes 1024 rats? That can't be answered and it's not because the answer is unknown , its because the answer does not exist and never will. > Of

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 at 10:39 am, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> The difference between the past and the future in a deterministic >> multiverse is that for an observer inside it the past is

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > The difference between the past and the future in a deterministic > multiverse is that for an observer inside it the past is known but the > future is uncertain. Although it uncertain, it can be guessed at or

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 3:26 am, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 9:31 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​ >>> ​>>​ >>> a rat can remember the past and a rat can use induction to make a >>> prediction, and most important of all a rat knows

Re: A profound lack of profundity

​Bruno Marchal wrote:​ > >> *What ONE thing will the ONE rat see in the future after the ONE rat >> becomes 1024 rats?* That can't be answered and it's not because the >> answer is unknown , its because the answer does not exist and never will. > > > Of course the answer exist. It is "one of

Re: R: Re: R: Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 15 Aug 2017, at 12:08, 'scerir' via Everything List wrote: Spudboy100: One consciousness, yourself, of with everyone else, spanning other Everett Universes? "The reason why our sentient, percipient and thinking ego is met nowhere within our scientific world picture can easily be

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 15 Aug 2017, at 19:26, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 9:31 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​​>>​a rat can remember the past and a rat can use induction to make a prediction, and most important of all a rat knows if it's prediction turned out to be

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 9:31 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​ >> ​>>​ >> a rat can remember the past and a rat can use induction to make a >> prediction, and most important of all a rat knows if it's prediction turned >> out to be correct or not and that enables the rat to

R: Re: R: Re: A profound lack of profundity

Spudboy100: One consciousness, yourself, of with everyone else, spanning other Everett Universes? Normal 0 14 false false false IT X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 15 Aug 2017, at 01:09, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​By their behaviour, rats show an operational understanding of probability. ​That because a rat can remember the past and a rat can use induction to make a prediction,

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 15 Aug 2017, at 00:40, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​I let you know that some people understand the result without ever doing this thought I have no doubt. ​Some people on this list understand things without giving

Re: A profound lack of profundity

On 14 Aug 2017, at 23:37, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 8/14/2017 10:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If after a rat has been duplicated the 2 rats then have different experiences, such as one getting a electric shock and one not getting one, then they will no longer be identical and will

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