Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >> ​I found nothing wonderful in it, ​I thought it was a rather silly >> article. Why should the movement of somebody's eyeballs be better evidence >> for consciousness than the movement of somebody's vocal cords that

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

> On Jan 3, 2018, at 11:34 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 1/3/2018 6:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> On 01 Jan 2018, at 19:01, John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Bruno Marchal >> > wrote:

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 1/3/2018 6:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Jan 2018, at 19:01, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Bruno Marchal >wrote:

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 01 Jan 2018, at 20:44, Brent Meeker wrote: On 1/1/2018 5:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12/31/2017 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you find an empirical quantum tautology violated by Z1*, or X1*, or S4Grz1, There's no such thing as an empirical tautology...that's why I said it's

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 01 Jan 2018, at 19:01, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: https://www.sciencealert.com/your-consciousness-does-not-switch-off-during-a-dreamless-sleep-say-scientists ​> ​Wonderful! ​I found nothing wonderful in it, ​ ​I thought

Re: Dreamless Sleep and the Dream Argument

On Jan 1, 2018, at 5:20 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 1 January 2018 at 15:02, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Jan 2018, at 13:39, David Nyman wrote: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01924/full This link ​could serve as quite​ an

Re: Dreamless Sleep and the Dream Argument

On 1 January 2018 at 19:34, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 1/1/2018 4:39 AM, David Nyman wrote: > > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01924/full > > This link > ​could serve as quite​ > an illuminating adjunct to the dreamless sleep thread. The authors

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 1/1/2018 5:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12/31/2017 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you find an empirical quantum tautology violated by Z1*, or X1*, or S4Grz1, There's no such thing as an empirical tautology...that's why I said it's a mugs game. A tautology is bthe name logicians

Re: Dreamless Sleep and the Dream Argument

On 1/1/2018 4:39 AM, David Nyman wrote: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01924/full This link ​could serve as quite​ an illuminating adjunct to the dreamless sleep thread. The authors begin by

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > https://www.sciencealert.com/your-consciousness-does-not- > switch-off-during-a-dreamless-sleep-say-scientists > > > ​> ​ > Wonderful! > ​I found nothing wonderful in it, ​ ​I thought it was a rather silly article. Why

Re: Dreamless Sleep and the Dream Argument

On 1 January 2018 at 15:02, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 01 Jan 2018, at 13:39, David Nyman wrote: > > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01924/full > > This link > ​could serve as quite​ > an illuminating adjunct to the dreamless sleep thread. The authors

Re: Dreamless Sleep and the Dream Argument

On 01 Jan 2018, at 13:39, David Nyman wrote: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01924/full This link ​could serve as quite​ an illuminating adjunct to the dreamless sleep thread. The authors begin by asserting that 'consciousness' - by which they do ​indeed ​appear to

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/31/2017 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you find an empirical quantum tautology violated by Z1*, or X1*, or S4Grz1, There's no such thing as an empirical tautology...that's why I said it's a mugs game. A tautology is bthe name logicians gave to any propositional calculus. A

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/31/2017 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you find an empirical quantum tautology violated by Z1*, or X1*, or S4Grz1, There's no such thing as an empirical tautology...that's why I said it's a mugs game. A tautology is bthe name logicians gave to any propositional calculus. A

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 30 Dec 2017, at 22:38, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/30/2017 7:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Dec 2017, at 22:06, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Dec 2017, at 03:13, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 30 Dec 2017, at 22:33, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/30/2017 7:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Dec 2017, at 21:48, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Dec 2017, at 20:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 2:25 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu,

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/30/2017 4:40 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 30 December 2017 at 23:38, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 12/29/2017 4:51 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 23 December 2017 at 02:13, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 30 December 2017 at 23:38, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/29/2017 4:51 PM, David Nyman wrote: > > On 23 December 2017 at 02:13, Brent Meeker wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: >> >> >> >> On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/29/2017 4:51 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 23 December 2017 at 02:13, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker"

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 30 Dec 2017 21:38, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/30/2017 7:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Dec 2017, at 22:06, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Dec 2017, at 03:13, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/30/2017 7:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Dec 2017, at 22:06, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Dec 2017, at 03:13, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker"

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 27 Dec 2017, at 00:17, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 8:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Dec 2017, at 15:31, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes" wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David Nyman wrote: >

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 27 Dec 2017, at 00:10, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 7:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Dec 2017, at 11:25, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So we are told. But what

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 26 Dec 2017, at 22:06, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Dec 2017, at 03:13, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/22/2017 6:31 AM, David Nyman

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 26 Dec 2017, at 21:48, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/26/2017 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Dec 2017, at 20:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 2:25 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM,

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 23 December 2017 at 02:13, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: > > > > On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker" wrote: > > > > On 12/22/2017 6:31 AM, David Nyman wrote: > > > > On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes"

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/26/2017 8:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Dec 2017, at 15:31, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes" > wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David Nyman

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/26/2017 7:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Dec 2017, at 11:25, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So we are told.  But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/26/2017 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Dec 2017, at 03:13, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker" > wrote: On 12/22/2017 6:31 AM, David Nyman wrote:

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/26/2017 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Dec 2017, at 20:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 2:25 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So we are told.  But what if

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 22 Dec 2017, at 15:31, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes" wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David Nyman wrote: > On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> > So we are

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 22 Dec 2017, at 11:25, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you brain and tell you what you were thinking?

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 23 Dec 2017, at 03:13, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/22/2017 6:31 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes" wrote: On Thu, Dec 21,

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 22 Dec 2017, at 20:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/22/2017 2:25 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/22/2017 4:50 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker" > wrote: On 12/22/2017 6:31 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes"

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 22 Dec 2017 23:16, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/22/2017 6:31 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes" wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David Nyman wrote: > On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/22/2017 6:31 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes" > wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David Nyman > wrote: > On 21 December 2017 at

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 22 Dec 2017 19:57, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/22/2017 2:25 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote: > >> >> On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >>> So we are told. But what if someone could

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/22/2017 2:25 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you brain and tell you what you were thinking? Why do you

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 22 Dec 2017 11:22, "Telmo Menezes" wrote: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David Nyman wrote: > On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> > So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David Nyman wrote: > On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> > So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you >> > brain and tell you what you were thinking? >> >> Why do you

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you >>> brain and tell you what you were thinking? >> >> Why do you need the MRI? You can look

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 21 Dec 2017 20:47, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/21/2017 12:37 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 Dec 2017 19:25, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/21/2017 5:01 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 21 Dec 2017 20:46, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/21/2017 12:28 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 Dec 2017 18:58, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > Hi David, > > Sometimes your responses really puzzle me Brent.

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/21/2017 12:37 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 Dec 2017 19:25, "Brent Meeker" > wrote: On 12/21/2017 5:01 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/21/2017 12:28 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 Dec 2017 18:58, "Brent Meeker" > wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi David, Sometimes your responses really puzzle me Brent. What you

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 21 Dec 2017 19:25, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/21/2017 5:01 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you > > brain and tell you what you

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 21 Dec 2017 18:58, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/21/2017 3:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > Hi David, > > Sometimes your responses really puzzle me Brent. What you say above almost >> makes it sound as though you just don't get the distinction Telmo is >> pointing to. But

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/21/2017 5:01 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > So we are told.  But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you > brain and tell you what you were thinking? Why

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/21/2017 3:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you brain and tell you what you were thinking? Why do you need the MRI? You can look at the text that I write and know what I'm thinking. We've been doing that all along. The text

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/21/2017 3:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi David, Sometimes your responses really puzzle me Brent. What you say above almost makes it sound as though you just don't get the distinction Telmo is pointing to. But based on what you have said at other times I think you do get it, but because

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 21 December 2017 at 11:34, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you > > brain and tell you what you were thinking? > > Why do you need the MRI? You can look at the text that I write and > know what I'm thinking.

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

> So we are told. But what if someone could look at a recorded MRI of you > brain and tell you what you were thinking? Why do you need the MRI? You can look at the text that I write and know what I'm thinking. We've been doing that all along. The text I write comes from my fingers hitting the

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

Hi David, > Sometimes your responses really puzzle me Brent. What you say above almost > makes it sound as though you just don't get the distinction Telmo is > pointing to. But based on what you have said at other times I think you do > get it, but because you also know that there's really no

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 18 December 2017 at 07:08, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/17/2017 9:03 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:53 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote: > > On 12/8/2017 2:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 7,

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/17/2017 9:03 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:53 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/8/2017 2:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/7/2017 1:01 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed,

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/17/2017 8:46 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I guess you also know my position about this. You are taking an a priori position of what consciousness is, and how it fits reality and just running with it. It is irrelevant here if the human-level AI already exists or not. Knowing how to make

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:53 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/8/2017 2:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Brent Meeker >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/7/2017 1:01 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/8/2017 2:09 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 08 Dec 2017, at 19:30, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/8/2017 2:09 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote:

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 8 Dec 2017 18:30, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/8/2017 2:09 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/8/2017 2:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/7/2017 1:01 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/8/2017 2:09 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 08 Dec 2017, at 11:09, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 07 Dec 2017, at 18:36, David Nyman wrote: On 7 Dec 2017 15:08, "Bruno Marchal" wrote: On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I suspect

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 8 Dec 2017 03:31, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/7/2017 5:05 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 7 December 2017 at 21:49, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/7/2017 9:36 AM, David Nyman wrote: > > > > On 7 Dec 2017 15:08, "Bruno Marchal"

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/7/2017 1:01 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I suspect that this is

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I suspect that

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 7 December 2017 at 21:49, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/7/2017 9:36 AM, David Nyman wrote: > > > > On 7 Dec 2017 15:08, "Bruno Marchal" wrote: > > > On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/7/2017 9:36 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 7 Dec 2017 15:08, "Bruno Marchal" > wrote: On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/7/2017 1:01 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I suspect that this is perhaps why Brent want to refer to the environment for relating consciousness to the machine, and in

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 7 Dec 2017 15:08, "Bruno Marchal" wrote: On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> >>> I suspect that this is perhaps why Brent

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 07 Dec 2017, at 10:01, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I suspect that this is perhaps why Brent want to refer to the environment for relating consciousness to the machine, and

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> I suspect that this is perhaps why Brent want to refer to the environment >> for relating consciousness to the machine, and in Artificial Intelligence, >> some people

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/6/2017 1:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I suspect that this is perhaps why Brent want to refer to the environment for relating consciousness to the machine, and in Artificial Intelligence, some people defend the idea that (mundane) consciousness occur only when the environment contradicts

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 05 Dec 2017, at 02:36, David Nyman wrote: On 5 December 2017 at 01:11, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/4/2017 4:59 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December 2017 at 01:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/1/2017 5:21 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 04 Dec 2017, at 21:51, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/4/2017 5:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Dec 2017, at 04:55, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/1/2017 6:35 PM, David Nyman wrote: I think it likely that ability in humans co-evolved with the development of language. Did you ever read

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 04 Dec 2017, at 15:28, David Nyman wrote: On 4 December 2017 at 13:16, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Dec 2017, at 00:48, David Nyman wrote: On 1 December 2017 at 17:45, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Nov 2017, at 01:28, David Nyman wrote:

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 5 December 2017 at 01:11, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/4/2017 4:59 PM, David Nyman wrote: > > On 2 December 2017 at 01:57, Brent Meeker wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/1/2017 5:21 PM, David Nyman wrote: >> >> On 2 December 2017 at 00:58, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/4/2017 4:59 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December 2017 at 01:57, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 12/1/2017 5:21 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December 2017 at 00:58, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 2 December 2017 at 01:57, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/1/2017 5:21 PM, David Nyman wrote: > > On 2 December 2017 at 00:58, Brent Meeker wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/1/2017 4:46 PM, David Nyman wrote: >> >> On 2 December 2017 at 00:06, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/4/2017 5:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It is the building of the "model/reality", but it makes sense only through some reality, and consciousness is on the side of that reality, which lead to the utter counter-intuitive idea that to get individual coherence, we need a brain making us

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/4/2017 5:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Dec 2017, at 04:55, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/1/2017 6:35 PM, David Nyman wrote: I think it likely that ability in humans co-evolved with the development of language. Did you ever read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 4 December 2017 at 13:16, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 02 Dec 2017, at 00:48, David Nyman wrote: > > On 1 December 2017 at 17:45, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 28 Nov 2017, at 01:28, David Nyman wrote: >> >>

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 02 Dec 2017, at 00:48, David Nyman wrote: On 1 December 2017 at 17:45, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Nov 2017, at 01:28, David Nyman wrote: https://www.sciencealert.com/your-consciousness-does-not-switch-off-during-a-dreamless-sleep-say-scientists Wonderful!

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 02 Dec 2017, at 04:55, Brent Meeker wrote: On 12/1/2017 6:35 PM, David Nyman wrote: I think it likely that ability in humans co-evolved with the development of language. Did you ever read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"? You

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/1/2017 6:35 PM, David Nyman wrote: I think it likely that ability in humans co-evolved with the development of language.  Did you ever read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"? You betcha! A paradigm shifter if ever I read

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 2 Dec 2017 01:57, "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 12/1/2017 5:21 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December 2017 at 00:58, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/1/2017 4:46 PM, David Nyman wrote: > > On 2 December 2017 at 00:06, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/1/2017 5:21 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December 2017 at 00:58, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 12/1/2017 4:46 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December 2017 at 00:06, Brent Meeker

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 2 December 2017 at 00:58, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/1/2017 4:46 PM, David Nyman wrote: > > On 2 December 2017 at 00:06, Brent Meeker wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/1/2017 3:48 PM, David Nyman wrote: >> >> >> Another aspect of this is that if, in

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/1/2017 4:46 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 2 December 2017 at 00:06, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 12/1/2017 3:48 PM, David Nyman wrote: Another aspect of this is that if, in imagination, you progressively reduce the duration of

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 2 December 2017 at 00:06, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 12/1/2017 3:48 PM, David Nyman wrote: > > > Another aspect of this is that if, in imagination, you progressively > reduce the duration of your effective short term memory, at some point you > will intuit that you

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 12/1/2017 3:48 PM, David Nyman wrote: Another aspect of this is that if, in imagination, you progressively reduce the duration of your effective short term memory, at some point you will intuit that you have become effectively 'unconscious', or at least un-self-conscious, as you will be

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 1 December 2017 at 17:45, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 28 Nov 2017, at 01:28, David Nyman wrote: > > https://www.sciencealert.com/your-consciousness-does-not-swi > tch-off-during-a-dreamless-sleep-say-scientists > > > > > > > Wonderful! Thanks! It confirms Mechanism, both

Re: Dreamless Sleep?

On 28 Nov 2017, at 01:28, David Nyman wrote: https://www.sciencealert.com/your-consciousness-does-not-switch-off-during-a-dreamless-sleep-say-scientists Wonderful! Thanks! It confirms Mechanism, both the one of Descartes and the "theology" of the machine. And the salvia plant! I have