Jacky,
just a quick note to let you know I am looking at this one. I am
making up a simple php UserService.php that will generate wsdl close
to what you have below. I will post a working example when I have it.
Thanks to dali for spotting you need the 'soap' argument.
Matthew
On Mar 11, 6:54 am
No, dead. But you've shamed us into coming back to life :-)
On Feb 24, 6:05 am, Thomy Berlin wrote:
> no, not dead - more s sort of sleeping :)
>
> 2009/2/24 jackyrong :
>
>
>
> > maybe already dead
>
> > On 2月24日, 上午8时30分, TheIdeaMan wrote:
> >> From what I've read and what little I've been ab
Hi Jacky,
sorry you had difficulties. You did everything right. If I try out
your example the sytax is all just fine.
I can sort of see what is going wrong without knowing straightaway how
to fix it.
The error message says that xmlSAXUserParseFile returned an error.
This is a routine in the libx
This looks a great idea. I have just added it and checked it in. I
wasn't sure that WSDL_DIR was quite unique enough - I'd rather have it
in a namespace or an SCA at front or something - but actually I expect
it is good enough so I left it as it was.
I agree we should have a release, especially s
I wonder too. I suggest one of us put a question on one of the PHP
mailing lists, or maybe on the page to do with fopen(). Are you happy
to do that, Silvano?
Matthew
On Nov 24, 3:40 pm, "Silvano Girardi Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I wonder if there is any way to specify the certificate to
OK so that's useful information and makes sense. How would you go
about connecting to an https URL from PHP? I have never tried it. Is
there a way to give the userid and password to the file wrapper?
Matthew
On 20 Nov, 20:44, "Silvano Girardi Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nope.
>
> "failed to
The way I _think_ this works (though it is 2 years since I last looked
at this bit of the code) is as follows:
1. the Soap_Proxy calls setWSDLTypes
2. setWSDLTypes calls the SDO_DAS_XML::create (as shown in the message
below)
3. the SDO_DAS_XML code calls the Tuscany SDO code passing the URL
4. Th
Hi Charlie, just to say that I am sorry to say that the person who is
looking into this is busy elesewhere right now so although I expect
him to get to it in time, right now it's on hold. Just thought I ought
to let you know. We do agree it needs fixing though.
Matthew
On Jun 24, 1:56 pm, "Charl
Hi Silvano, just to say that I bumped into Caroline who said she is
going to take a look at it and see what it will take to get the right
behaviour during xml generation.
Matthew
On Jun 19, 10:40 am, Matthew Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi Caroline, thanks for a very authoritati
s on the MBMetadata type.
>
> Thanks,
> - Charlie
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 6:35 AM, Matthew Peters <
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Charlie,
> > There is no way to alter the xml that gets generated; this is done in
> > the C code inside the php_sdo
Hi Charlie,
There is no way to alter the xml that gets generated; this is done in
the C code inside the php_sdo extension. However, it might be that it
is not working properly, and that it should be generating the
xsi:type's - if so, we should fix it. It would help if you could point
us at the wsd
Hi Caroline, thanks for a very authoritative answer, as always. The
one we are going to need to fix, of course, is the Tuscany behaviour,
and what it does on $xmldas->saveString($xdoc), since that is what we
use to generate the XML for the soap response ... unless we do some
horrid fix up of the g
7;, 'BOGUS', $sdo);
$xmlstr = $xmldas->saveString($xdoc, 0);
print $xmlstr;
?>
this gives:
SDO_DataObjectImpl Object
(
[getDoubleReturn] => 1.23456789
)
object(SDO_DataObject)#3 (1) {getDoubleReturn=>"1.235e+000"}
http://Sample";
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/
127.0.0.1] PHP Notice:
SDO_DataObjectImpl Object\n(\n[getDoubleReturn] => 3210.8765\n)\n
in C:\\php\\PEAR\\SCA\\Bindings\\soap\\Wrapper.php on line 97
I need to look further
On Jun 17, 1:52 pm, Matthew Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi Silvano,
> Indeed, this is not good.
Hi Stefaan,
I see, you are presumably getting nothing back when you ask for the
wsdl with something like
$wsdl = file_get_contents('http://barabas.hogent.be/kariboe/
helloworld.php?wsdl');
What we need to know is what appears in the apache error log on the
server machine barabas.hogent.be (or wha
Hi Silvano,
Indeed, this is not good. I picked up the sample from the defect that
you raised.
I added a couple of trigger_errors to Bindings/soap/Wrapper.php to
look at the return values.
If I show the return value before we mess with it, it looks fine:
[Tue Jun 17 13:45:20 2008] [error] [client
Hi Stefaan,
Sorry you had difficulties. The first place to look when there are
problems is the apache error log. I just cut and pasted your example
(I coiuld see nothing wrong with it :-)) and saw
Uncaught SCA_RuntimeException: No valid @binding annotation found for
'helloworld.php'.\n
Then I
t; server... but it made no difference
>
> > We are also still getting the blank line generating WSDLs and any
> > other XML file generated by sca, including the msd file... we still
> > don't know why this happens... but this behaviour only occurs, when
> > the
... the UK's smallest songbird, GOLDCREST.
http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/g/goldcrest/index.asp
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found that the same line
> looks different than the one in the SCA version we downloaded:
>
> SCA_Bindings_message_ServiceDescriptionGenerator::generateMSD($service_description));
>
> we downloaded the SCA_SDO stable version 1.2.3 from
> here:http://pecl.php.net/package/SCA_SDO/
>
> Aga
I have built and released FULMAR as 1.2.4
The contents are:
# The ability to control the operations on a service interface through
a PHP interface
by specifying the PHP interface on the @service annotation - e.g.
@service MyServiceInterface
# PECL bug 11997 - don't remove xsi:type (except on top
Hi, sorry to hear you are having problems.
The Fatal error you are seeing looks odd: the _ms_ in the middle of
the name looks like something somewhere is looking for a binding.ms
rather than binding.message. I propose we try with an exaple that I
know works - I show below a simple example that I
Hi Khurrum,
I am sorry but this really isn't going to work the way you want it to.
You are right that the first call to the service is setting the
instance variables in the class, and that when you come back on the
second call they are not set. That is because your second call comes
back to a comp
For info, Khurrum wrote to me to say that this was indeed to do with
the level of the soap extension:
"Hey i got it working when i have upgraded my php 5.16 to 5.24 ,oyu
were right it was the Soap version error."
Case closed.
On Feb 7, 4:40 pm, Matthew Peters <[EMAIL PROT
For info, there is an example in the release that does I think what
you want to do. I don't know where it would have been installed on
your machine, but on my Linux machine:
/usr/local/lib/php/test/SCA_SDO/examples/SCA/Soap/
SCAComponentUsingDataStructures
it shows calling a sefvice via SOAP whic
I think we're now handling this error in the other thread entitled
"Fatal error: Uncaught SCA_RuntimeException"
On Feb 6, 12:57 pm, khurrum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Try The soap examples is is coming in all soap examples
>
> Fatal error: Uncaught SCA_RuntimeException: The remote service
above.
If I cannot reproduce the error then I will ask you to turn on the
logging inside SCA and we will see what is going on that way, but I'll
tell you how to do that if we
Hi Dali,
SCA doesn't generate fault elements in the wsdl at the moment. The
steps to do so would be something like:
1. decide what you want the definition to look like within the
service. I expect you would choose to define an @exception annotation
and then put on that annotation whatever other i
We have been hanging on to FULMAR hoping to get a solution to the data
model caching in it, but this doesn't seem to be going to happen.
Shall I make a release?
Matthew
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
ing at my end too. It seemed to be the @types
> annotation that was causing grief.
>
> In the process we've had to change SCA/Bindings/soap/
> ServiceDescriptionGenerator.php to output tags instead of
> , but that could just be interop issues.
>
> dali
>
> On Jan 30, 3:31 am, Matthew
Have you tried using your 5.3 under Zend Studio? Is the debugger dll
in ZS compatible, do you know, with your 5.3?
Matthew
On Jan 29, 1:36 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So you got there first! Are you exclusively on 5.3 now?
>
> Simon
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You re
et me know how you get on.
Matthew
On Jan 27, 9:29 pm, Dalibor Andzakovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Jan 25, 10:23 pm, Matthew Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for trying SCA and for telling us about the problem. Please
> > would you put up
Hi Dan,
Thanks for trying SCA and for telling us about the problem. Please
would you put up the Temperatures.xsd as well? I'll look at it
straight away.
Matthew
On Jan 25, 12:28 am, Dalibor Andzakovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I Have a problem running consuming SCA exposed as a we
Hi Caroline,
well spotted. There are places in both the wsdl generation and in the
xmlrpc binding that we generate xml by simply sticking strings
together ( I searched for " wrote:
> > this. Even if that gets fixed though, I don't think we can always depend
> > on Tuscany - the SCA code generates
Looking through the open defects I think we should fix the following
two soon. We have let them go quiet.
http://pecl.php.net/bugs/bug.php?id=12193 - binding.soap: alphabetical
order of namespaces causes failure
http://pecl.php.net/bugs/bug.php?id=11996 - SCA does not show libxml2
parse errors
-
Tom, thanks for spotting that. I fixed it and also at Caroline's
suggestion I looked at the other places and fixed a few others. We
always want to put false on because never want to load a class
inadvertently.
Matthew
On Nov 22, 1:19 pm, Caroline Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tom wrote:
>
It has been over two months since our last release and it is time we
did another one. We have been a bit quiet recently, though, and have
only three fixes in FULMAR at the moment.
See
http://groups.google.com/group/phpsoa/web/contents-of-release-from-fulmar-branch
What else should we be fixing
Rob is exactly right.
If you change two lines in SCA/Bindings/soap/
ServiceDescriptionGenerator.php to add the namespace prefix "wsdl" to
the generated wsdl, it will validate. Sorry about that.
I have checked in a change which will be in the next release.
Line 196 should read
$types
----------
+
| Authors: Graham Charters, Matthew
Peters|
|
|
+--
I just thought I would raise this in case anyone had seen anything
similar:
The following little script is crashing for me, both under Zend Studio
and under Apache. If I take out the last line - assignment into the
session - I no longer get a crash. And if I add the document $doc into
the session
Today I packaged up EIDER and turned it into release 1.2.3. The
contents are follows:
* Fixes for PECL bugs:
- TUSCANY-1362 - Incorrect operation of code that checks whether
schema is loaded before going out on the net to retrieve it.
- TUSCANY-1112 - (which is PECL 9867) Incorrect namespaces
How beastly of it. Now, who wants to be the one to tell Pete...
On Aug 22, 11:33 am, Caroline Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> However I am still getting the 400 status code (with no error message)
> from the atompub server. I think the code in question just can't cope
> with not having a de
On Aug 20, 12:10 pm, Caroline Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matthew Peters wrote:
> > Incidentally, could you paste in a little of the code that used to add
> > the fields to the entry? I am finding it very hard to write the code
> > that creates an entry - som
Oh dear.
>
> Caroline Maynard
>
.../...
> atom namespace. However the problem for me is that this particular
> server still doesn't like it - it gives me a response code 400, but
I hoped we had seen the back of namespace problems but this looks like
Tuscany is still generating the wrong XML.
Caroline,
I've been looking at problem 5 in your list here - the server
rejecting the generated XML. I think our Atom1.0.xsd is wrong.
Our xsd has no elementFormDefault attribute on the schema definition.
This means that we get the default behaviour, which is that only top
level elements defined
There has been no activity in the codebase which is why I have left it
three weeks since writing the last digest. That is not to say there is
nothing going on though.
Tom Foster has substantially updated the OSOA pages on SCA and SDO for
PHP, as mentioned elsewhere.
Matthew Schultz found a probl
To my knowledge the following happened in the EIDER codebase this
week:
___
PECL BUG 11388
This was the one about how the soap extension no longer looks for
$RAW_HTTP_POST_DATA any longer in 5.2.3 so the soap binding was no
longer working . This was not hard to fix, thanks to Rob havi
"I ave check" - what has happened to me :-) Mental note - read the
post through before clicking on Send.
On Jul 19, 5:43 pm, Matthew Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I ave check it into EIDER, along with its phpunit tests and example (a
> good starting poin
I ave check it into EIDER, along with its phpunit tests and example (a
good starting point is examples/SCA/atom/test_contact_feed.php). I
have also put up some rather cryptic notes at
http://groups.google.com/group/phpsoa/web/todo-list-for-the-atom-binding
- these are what I gathered when talking
Good, I'm pleased :-)
On Jul 17, 4:15 pm, Caroline Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks, I enjoyed that. Highly digestible :-)
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To post to this
Shame I didn't read it through carefully before posting - that should
be
"that has *not* quite made it to the outside world ..."
On Jul 17, 10:06 am, Matthew Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> that has quite made it to the outside world.
We have a first attempt at a ATOMPUB binding sitting on a server here
that has quite made it to the outside world. It was mostly written by
Megan Beynon - she put a lot of work in but then had to move to
another project.
The essential idea is that you can define a proxy for a remote
component tha
Rob, thank you very much for your investigations. You suggested
earlier that it might be possible to change the soap binding so that
it passes the info in on the handle() call. Presumably this would work
in all cases without needing to rely on how php was built?
Matthew
--~--~-~--~~-
__
PECL BUG 9867
The best news from my point of view was that we got a fix to Apache
Tuscany JIRA 1112, (Apache Tuscany is the C++ SDO which lives
underneath the PHP SDO) which meant we could close pecl bug 9867. This
one concerned the XML that got generated from an SDO by the XML DAS,
That sounds a good way to go. Good suggestion.
On Jul 12, 12:10 pm, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> pass the serialized request as the parameter to the handle() call. In
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Rob, thank you very much for the information about HTTP_RAW_POST_DATA.
Unless you also have an idea how to achieve what we wanted, I'll write
to Dmitry and see if he can suggest a way to unit test applications
that use the soap server from the command line.
Matthew
On Jul 11, 4:40 pm, Rob <[EMAI
P.S. Just checking - you've changed the skips so that 002 and 003,
which were skipped, now fail. You are going to change the expected
output to take out the default namespace, and then they'll work. Is
that right?
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Yes, I think the new behaviour is correct. The recent Tuscany changes
have stopped the default namespace being emitted, so the output on the
left hand side of your file compare is the one we want to see. Thank
you for fixing the skip conditions.
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~--
I am such a bad person. I knew I wasn't doing it and was always half-
expecting someone to call me to account. OK I *_promise_* to do it
this Friday :-)
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Sorry - In my case silence = I usually only watch the top 7 topics
i.e. the ones that show up on the phpsoa google page, and this one had
risen up and fallen below that threshold before I got round to reading
it.
I think it would be an interesting social experiment to see if we can
evolve some pr
I think the namespace saga (JIRA 1112) is over at last - I have just
picked up the latest Tuscany and the generated XML now validates with
XERCES. I had to change a few unit tests that relied on the old
behaviour. Everything is checked back in now, so if you pick up a new
EIDER there should be no
What happened to Simon's userid?
> simonslaws-gM/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
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tlook for a fix is. In the meantime, Simon, I'll be
glad if you don't check in the recent changes :-)
Matthew
On Jun 28, 10:46 am, Matthew Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I will look at the JIRA and answer it for sure in the next two days,
> and also reply
Thanks for spotting that. What a nice article it is! I am very
impressed - it seems no matter how neglectful any of us have been
about the documentation (for example I only just got round to changing
@binding.ws for @binding.soap in the docs), Tyler Anderson has
deciphered what we have been up to
Simon,
thanks for putting this up here and saving us all falling over it. I
expect this is related to the answer I got back on
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TUSCANY-1112
which is all about namespaces, and where I know a fix was checked in
recently (a week or so ago, after I took the code f
I have just committed the DUNLIN branch to HEAD, and built and
released it as release 1.2.2. The release notes are:
* Fixes for PECL bugs:
- PECL#10925 - Don't treat magic PHP methods as service operations
- PECL#10989 - don't automatically make all types in the wsdl nillable
- PECL#10994 - Busin
I just uploaded a new release candidate for DUNLIN (1.2.2) into the
files section of this google group. I deleted the previous one, so the
one that is there, and says it was uploaded at 8:10, is the one to
try.
wrt to the "going out on the web for no schemalocation" problem, I
went for the follow
What are we going to do then? Sitting on a broadband connection, each
of the WSDL generation tests takes about a second. That's in the
morning UK time when the US is asleep. The times go up considerably in
the afternoon. Two days running the times have gone above 30 seconds.
It is a one-line chan
No, sorry, brainstorm. The thing that had made the problem go away was
changing the call to defineFile at line 24 in XMLDAS to make the
second argument false. Doubtless your solution is a proper one and
more robust.
Matthew
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this
This afternoon I tried just having a local copy of the wsdl file that
it is looking for and had it load that first. That workd for me and I
was going to check that in but not if you have a better solution.
Incidentally I have been putting in some guards in various places so
the test don;t fail wh
> 2. There are some horrible network delays. I am working at home on a
For example I just got a timeout. We can see it is going out on the
web for http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/wsdl/:
.
Warning: SDO_DAS_XML::create(http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/wsdl/)
[function.SDO-DAS-XML-create]: failed to open st
...well, actually. Two things:
1. I moved the dependency test for the ebaysoapbinding into one place
in the setUp method rather than in every test. I hope you would have
done the same...
...but...
2. There are some horrible network delays. I am working at home on a
broadband line and the soap t
Good progress. I will generate another RC
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Simon, the index.php did contain a reference to helloworldscajsonrpc/
Helloworld.php which did not exist - it should have been
helloworld.php. Thanks for spotting - I have fixed.
Matthew
On 18 Jun, 16:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Things left to do If any one fancies taking a look
>
> 1/ exampl
SCA_SDO-1.2.2.tgz - the version that Simon has been using above, no
fixes yet - is now in the files section.
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Simon,
the place to fix things is in DUNLIN. Once that is right, then I will
move the code across to HEAD, create the release, and make the new
branch.
Please go ahead and fix anything you want to, then when you have
finished let me know what's left. I should have made more effort to
catch the ca
Caroline,
Thanks for the reminder, I have changed the Tuscany defect 1297 to
closed.
I have made a note of the Tuscany level in our DUNLIN page here - I'll
remember to add it to the release notes.
I have just answered your post on 24th May - which I never spotted at
the time, apologies. There m
Caroline,
a) Thanks, I have made a note on a postit and stuck on the top sheet
of my SCA for PHP todo - assign defects we find in XML parsing to C++
SDO *not* C++ DAS.
b) I am not sure if you are telling me that I need to do something
here. Is there something I need to do in future that I have n
I have just checked in some changes to the SDO C++ code (thanks, Pete
Robbins) and a one-liner to one of the classes in the soap binding
which I think fix 11012 and 11004. Both the wsdl and the soap messages
now validate correctly with soapscope and Java Xerces, which I think
must be what soapscop
I had a look at all these today. The nub of the problem is that both
#11012 and #11004 point at JIRA #1297. I created the confusion in the
first place when I raised Tuscany JIRA 1297 - I raised the original
JIRA with a title that presupposed what the problem was. Really the
problem is that the WSD
We seem to have done the things that we said we would do in
http://groups.google.com/group/phpsoa/web/content-of-release-from-dunlin-branch
so I propose to package it up into a release later this week -
Wednesday afternoon, say. Any objections, anyone?
It'll then be time for EAGLE or EIDER.
--~
I like the idea of walking one step at a time towards the goal, so
that we do the simple case well at first. You say "two approaches", I
hope they are really one approach, but one more elaborated than the
other, so two steps down the same road, not one step each down two
separate roads. That's nev
I wonder what happened to the post I just sent
... forget the words I said last time, since Caroline said it had to
be an object not an array I proposed the following interface:
$key = // calculate this in some way based on the xsd or xsds to be
used.
if (SDO::cache->containsKey($key)) {
$
You're right of course, we still need the comment, for the reason you
mention. All the rest still stands.
On Jun 4, 11:44 am, Graham Charters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Isn't this used to identify and unwrap the interface of the doc/lit
> wrapped service? If this is the case, then we still can
I'm glad you like the idea, and you ask a good question. It has always
seemed to me that right at the bottom we have service-oriented
components and resource-oriented components, and that the service
oriented ones can all be totally different but that at one level the
resource-oriented ones are al
I really like the way that Graham has used inheritance to create the
ebaysoap binding as an extension of the soap binding. I have not
looked at the detail in these posts but as soon as you said "template"
and "alongside" right at the top of the first post I wanted to suggest
that inheritance shoul
I just checked in to DUNLIN a temporary change so that the ebaysoap
binding uses the caching of the data factory. Specifically, what I did
was:
1. enable the caching in the sdo extension when the special two-
argument version of SDO_DAS_XML::create is used
2. make the table of cached data factorie
I volunteer to produce a weekly post of defect activity. I will make
that a Friday afternoon task. I will do that until further notice, but
let's say for the next three months for definite. I will try to find a
deputy for when I am not here.
Ok I volunteered, Does that mean I have to follow throu
Yes, I'm getting the "Could not post" when actually the post worked.
Then when I realise that the posts did work, I have to go and delete
all but one. It's topic "Thanks, Google" in the list below. I don't
know, you use a free service and then complain when you get your
money's worth.
On May 24,
d) one of the package maintainers, who do receive a stream of info
about defects, could volunteer to produce a weekly digest of
activity.
Who is this user "phpsoa" who writes to us from behind an alias? Let
them show their face, I say! :-)
> Depending on the response, I can:
> a) leave it turne
Please can we turn it off?
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Please can we turn it off?
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For more options, visit
OK, several things got discussed here but picking out the essential
attitude to the initial question:
Mike C says (I am quoting from pecl defect 10994):
" I would like to suppress everything with the exception of the
exception description and number. Exposing files and backtraces in
exceptions
On May 23, 2:17 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> or tell me how to fix the docs and I'll do it.
Fixing the docs takes a bit of investment because it is a Linux-based
XML-based (DocBook) compile-style activity. I'll fix this one right
now. Sometime, if you fancy a go, here are some notes on the proc
On May 23, 2:17 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> or tell me how to fix the docs and I'll do it.
Fixing the docs takes a bit of investment because it is a Linux-based
XML-based (DocBook) compile-style activity. I'll fix this one right
now. Sometime, if you fancy a go, here are some notes on the proc
On May 23, 2:17 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> or tell me how to fix the docs and I'll do it.
Fixing the docs is a bit of a pig because it is a Linux-based XML-
based (DocBook) compile-style activity. I'll fix this one right now.
Sometime, if you fancy a go, here are some notes on the process:
P
On May 23, 2:17 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> or tell me how to fix the docs and I'll do it.
Fixing the docs is a bit of a pig because it is a Linux-based XML-
based (DocBook) compile-style activity. I'll fix this one right now.
Sometime, if you fancy a go, here are some notes on the process:
P
On May 23, 2:17 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> or tell me how to fix the docs and I'll do it.
Fixing the docs is a bit of a pig because it is a Linux-based XML-
based (DocBook) compile-style activity. I'll fix this one right now.
Sometime, if you fancy a go, here are some notes on the process:
P
ammatically look like. But,
> > I'm
> > > not so sure about the structural changes I came up with and possible
> > > side effects. Also, I wouldn't want to interfere with an
> > architecture
> > > choices that may be tied to future initiativ
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