Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? Isn't today more important than tomorrow or last year or...? Uhh, I've been workign too much... -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:24 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I though the Canadian ISO system was based on numeric priority. Starting with the most significant, year, leading to the least significant, day. Sort of like normal numbers. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:25:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? And you'd prefer times as MM:SS:HH? ;-) Personally, I'm out to get the whole world to adopt ISO-8601, which alows several formats, of which I prefer -MM-DD. That will sort correctly whether it's alphanumeric, or whatever. Are we getting a little OT here? Steve Hendrix * Tracking #: B826F43E5AAE904AB1745A14BD63CEC5DAD14077 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Duplicate component designator detection
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
clip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) I would almost be willing to bet that if all of the Logitech Mouse users out there were to reinstall their operating systems fresh and not reinstall their Mouseware, and scrounged another mouse with a wheel for a test (did not use the Logitech mouse) that 50% of them would find out that they have the problem. I'd like to see that. If protel could get a grip on the problem maybe they could fix it. How about a poll?? EVERYONE ON THIS LIST THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM SHOULD EMAIL THE LIST SO 'WE' CAN COUNT THEM. I did a design on an audio card that worked in all PCI Macintosh computers except for this one guy. We wanted to be pro-active and try and solve the problem just in case it was the 'tip of the iceberg' sort of thing. The customer agreed to ship his computer to us for evaluation and we could NOT figure it out in a reasonable time ( under 1 week) We purchased another similarly configured system and it worked on that one. We probably could have found it with enough time, but it wasn't worth the thousands of dollars the company was burning on it so we returned the computer and issues the guy a full refund and some brownie points. The problem YOU have may be hard for Protel to reproduce, period. While companies such as Microsoft do there best to see that different pieces of hardware from different suppliers all work the same in their Operating Systems, we all know that the simple truth of the matter is that they don't. Part of this is Microsoft, and part of this is the different manufacturers who write the different drivers for their own products. I agree, but then again, look how many bugs are in MS code? TONS. Yes it's a lot of code, but if you track driver updates, service packs, etc, you get the idea of how many problems are lurking. I could accept some of the Microsoft Bashing and pointing the blame elsewhere if in fact Protel / Altium would specify a Golden System (a specific brand of hardware in a specific configuration) that their software was guarenteed to work perfectly with, but they haven't and apparently won't. I therefore maintain that Protel / Altium is responsible for making sure that there software will work properly with any relativey new generic hardware running generic installations of the Operating Systems software they claim Protel will run on (Windows 95, 98, 2000, and NT), using generic periferials (any somewhat standard mouse (as in Microsoft), or printer (as in HP)). We all demand this this for any other software we buy, why not Protel. I wasn't MS bashing; I was saying it's not cut and dry Protel's fault. I completely agree!!! They should specify 1 or more systems that would be 'perfect' for 99SE. Shit, we spend $8000 on s/w, who cares what a system costs if it works reliably. snip 2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is still there snip I disagree completely. PADS PowerPCB does it the way you request and it sucks. I keep having to find the area of interest because it jumped somewhere on my screen. Yes, it's more or less in the center, but my eyes weren't in the center before the jump so I have to focus in on it. That isn't natural. I like the way Protel did it. It keeps the item in my original focus still in focus after the zoom operation. Funny that you mention your eyes and original focus. In reality, you have to completely re-focus on the new image after a zoom in or out irregardless of where the cursor is. Sorry, I wont buy this one. No I don't have to re-focus. When I'm looking at something, somewhere on my screen, I put the cursor THERE and press PageUP. Guess what? It zoomed in exactly where my eyes were positioned, and I do not have to refocus or hunt for position. BTW, there is no such word as irregardless. It is regardless. Most people look around at different points of an image such as that presented by the Protel display screen. and in fact usually zoom in or out so that they can observe either more of a certain portion of that image, or view a certain portion closer
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
OK everybody, this emoticon ;) generally means 'kidding', 'teasing', 'joshing', 'joking', 'pulling your leg', etc. It takes the seriousness OFF the preceding text. I think Ivan was 'pulling your leg' However, with 240V you probably have more electrocutions! -Original Message- From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:29 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Ivan, Writing dates as MM/DD/YY is the same as writing time as HH:SS:MM. It does not seem logical. There should be linear ascendence or descendence in the order of things, IMO. In Australia we have 240V/50Hz. Compared to your 120V/60Hz. We could discuss frequency, but one thing is sure, the current in your system is twice as high as in our system. That means your losses are four times as high. Whatever you do, you will always have higher electricity costs. It might not seem a big to you as an individual. On a national scale, it costs all of you a lot of dough. Metric system is based on a decimal numerical system, which is natural to humans. So we have reasons for what we are doing. What are your reasons for the things you do? You are just used to? Igor -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 12:24 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? Maybe the down under has something to do with it? ;-) From one episode of the Simpsons, when Lisa is helping Bart study for a geography test, he looks at a globe and says hey, I didn't know there's an island called Rand McNally in the Pacific Ocean. Lisa tells him that in Rand McNally, everyone walks on their noses, and hamburgers eat people. To which Bart replies Cool!. rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:36 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. * Tracking #: FEA6A5084AAA1B4FBBCEA608A0CD8D2459FF9143 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST)
Brian, my bit to you is: 1. Use dual digital interface video card with LCD monitors. You will be able to work longer ours. Apparently you will need that. You don't need many colours, so colour processing speed is not an issue. You want stable image and no flicker. 2. M/B with 266MHz or higher memory bus speed. QDR is a relatively new thing and therefore insufficiently tested. It's up to you. If it works, then you are one up. 3. ATA166 hard disk. Work localy, save on the network. Buy the time you get to SCSI through the PCI there are no speed benefits. SCSI on board would help, but with the 166 MHz speed on you IDE bus, do you need SCSI? Latest IDE drives are sufficiently reliable. 4. Protel needs number machine, so I say use dual AMD. They need lot of cooling, make sure you have additional fans or, if you want to go fancy, you could install solid state coolers or liquid cooling. They NEED more cooling. 5. Logitech optical cordless wheel ergonomic mouse. Taste the freedom. BTW, I am right handed, so push mouse around with my right hand. Therefoere need Home, Page up and other keys on the left side of the K/B. Anyone seen something like that? Igor -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 12:36 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST) Here is what I gathered so far: #1. Use only a consumer grade NVIDIA based GF3, or GF4. With Protel's auto-pan problem, which differs from video card to video card, I can't even be sure that the work station grade NVIDIA cards will not create any unforeseen auto-pan problems. #2. Use 'only' Win2K Professional. The earlier M$ os's are useless WinXP has been demonstrated to have some minor questionable issues with P99SE. #3. Dual processors seem to run fine with Protel, and may help the system run with a better consistent pace. #4. Avoid using Postscript printers, or, if have a postscript printer which can be used in a HP emulated laser printer mode, it will probably be to your advantage to run it in this mode with Protel. #5. Use Win2K's generic mouse driver instead of the fancy ones which come with most Logitech mice. #6. More ram, the better. 2GB with a 3GB swapfile should make the system run as smooth as possible. Remember, my PCB has around 10K nets. Any corrections? Any additions, clear obvious items which I may have missed? So far, I have yet to hear any real Protel speed issues comparing dual AMD VS dual Intel. Also, if I were to go with Intel, should I go DDR, or QDR. Remember, I did say fastest possible Protel system. Also, it should have the least possible problems. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 8F1F3B6020E4674CBC9997FA43BC35230D5669AA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On 04:32 PM 23/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip I got tired of you complaining about it when you first joined the forum (and began slagging the software and those of us with different points of view) and showed you that you can have it any way you like. I don't use my server and it is not a bug fix in my mind. Not a bug fix? - semantics - not worth argueing over. Why can't you accept that Protel actually has some bugs, along with many many more features or whatever you want to call them that need to be fixed. JaMi, who maintains the User Bug database? Don't waffle on about me not thinking that there are no bugs in Protel. Of course there are bugs. In the past we have found that the way to get them fixed is to identify them, discuss them and then make lots of complaints about them. Similarly for feature changes. The voice of the group has much more weight than one loner's rant. Your method of engaging people is totally counter productive. You seem to think your are some all-encompassing authority and will refuse to accept that others have valid viewpoints, that make something you originally thought of as a bug as a simply your preference. If you made a bigger effort to engage others then you would probably find that you get a much better reception. You may think there are many apologists for Altium on this forum. Advice that you will probably swear over: By calming down and recognizing the difference between missing features (complex pads, lack of shorting entities etc), real bugs (poly pours violating clearance errors, list index out-of-bounds), and things you would prefer to be different (zooming), and discussing each in an appropriate manner you would find you get a better discussion going and you may well begin to influence the software. I note your comments in the thread on microstrips stating that people will jump on you if you call something a bug. Only if it is *not* a bug, and even then only if you are being obnoxious about it. My toaster doesn't know how to defrost bread. I want to use it to defrost bread. My toaster has a bug or a missing feature? Protel doesn't support ties (shorting entities). I want to use ties. Protel has a bug or a missing feature? A few physicists start to think the atomic-scale world is probablistic. Many others think they are wrong (including very well known and respected ones like Einstein). The few are proved correct and we have jobs in this field because of this. The few are right, the many are wrong. Protel zooms differently from other CAD packages. Maybe the many are wrong and the few are right? Just stop calling it a bug will you. Granted, you and some others may have actually grown accustomed to the weird behaviour of Protel when it zooms in and out, and actually like or prefer it, but that doesn't make it intuitive or natural. Disagree. having to re-find and refocus on a new location is unnecessary and unnatural. At least I think I could come up with a legitimate argument to that effect. Please stop imposing your preference on me and calling me non-intuitive or unnatural. Please recognise that it is just a simple little preference of yours. Reentering on zoom is *not* a natural law. snip Coz - it is better - at least quite a number of us think so and there is a basis for this preference. I may have a large screen or multiple screens. I prefer the location I am dealing with remain in the same spot on the screen so I do not have to find it again and refocus. It is all about speed. I, think that the other CAD packages have it wrong and protel has it right from a speed and human computer interaction (HCI) point of view. Having to find the edit point and re-focus is a slow down. I am an expert user - I want the package to be as fast as possible. This is one little example of how I think it is faster. Most of the time I am only paging up or down one step as I try to rout/place in a specific region. On the rarer occasions that zoom in or out a long way an occasional home is not issue for me. Please see my response to Tony on this issue. I think I make a very valid point that your arguement re re-find and refocus actually works against you, and I answer it there. You simply made an assertion and did not back it up with any physiological or bio-mechanical justification. That is not an argument it is example of you attempting to argue by shrill unjustified statements. In reality, you have to completely re-focus on the new image after a zoom in or out irregardless of where the cursor is. Sorry, I wont buy this one. I don't - I am looking at the location I am working in. PgUp and that area expands. I have not moved my eyes. The screen distance has not changed. My eyes do not need to refocus. I have not had to move my head to look at a different portion of the screen, so
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST)
I thought an application specific keyboard would be handy for an app like this, especially if it could be user configurable with LCD buttons! -Original Message- From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:42 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST) Brian, my bit to you is: 1. Use dual digital interface video card with LCD monitors. You will be able to work longer ours. Apparently you will need that. You don't need many colours, so colour processing speed is not an issue. You want stable image and no flicker. 2. M/B with 266MHz or higher memory bus speed. QDR is a relatively new thing and therefore insufficiently tested. It's up to you. If it works, then you are one up. 3. ATA166 hard disk. Work localy, save on the network. Buy the time you get to SCSI through the PCI there are no speed benefits. SCSI on board would help, but with the 166 MHz speed on you IDE bus, do you need SCSI? Latest IDE drives are sufficiently reliable. 4. Protel needs number machine, so I say use dual AMD. They need lot of cooling, make sure you have additional fans or, if you want to go fancy, you could install solid state coolers or liquid cooling. They NEED more cooling. 5. Logitech optical cordless wheel ergonomic mouse. Taste the freedom. BTW, I am right handed, so push mouse around with my right hand. Therefoere need Home, Page up and other keys on the left side of the K/B. Anyone seen something like that? Igor -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 12:36 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST) Here is what I gathered so far: #1. Use only a consumer grade NVIDIA based GF3, or GF4. With Protel's auto-pan problem, which differs from video card to video card, I can't even be sure that the work station grade NVIDIA cards will not create any unforeseen auto-pan problems. #2. Use 'only' Win2K Professional. The earlier M$ os's are useless WinXP has been demonstrated to have some minor questionable issues with P99SE. #3. Dual processors seem to run fine with Protel, and may help the system run with a better consistent pace. #4. Avoid using Postscript printers, or, if have a postscript printer which can be used in a HP emulated laser printer mode, it will probably be to your advantage to run it in this mode with Protel. #5. Use Win2K's generic mouse driver instead of the fancy ones which come with most Logitech mice. #6. More ram, the better. 2GB with a 3GB swapfile should make the system run as smooth as possible. Remember, my PCB has around 10K nets. Any corrections? Any additions, clear obvious items which I may have missed? So far, I have yet to hear any real Protel speed issues comparing dual AMD VS dual Intel. Also, if I were to go with Intel, should I go DDR, or QDR. Remember, I did say fastest possible Protel system. Also, it should have the least possible problems. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 8F1F3B6020E4674CBC9997FA43BC35230D5669AA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:28, Tony Karavidas wrote: OK everybody, this emoticon ;) generally means 'kidding', 'teasing', 'joshing', 'joking', 'pulling your leg', etc. It takes the seriousness OFF the preceding text. I think Ivan was 'pulling your leg' However, with 240V you probably have more electrocutions! Hi Tony, Not as many as you would think, but that could be due to mandatory laws (atleast in Western Australia) for all workplaces to be fitted with Residual Current Circuit Breakers (GFU's to the USA, ELCB's to old australians). Which makes me laugh, the AU federal government is looking at paying stay hat home mom's a wage, this makes them workers, this then means every wa home that has a stay at home parent a workplace now homes have to have RCD's too ;o). Also we are not allowed by law to do our own electrical work, by the strict law, you have to atleast have a limited electrical license to change light globes, filp a circuit breaker that has tripped, rewire a fuse, replace a fuse cartridge. Wiring extention leads is also covered under this license as is home made equipment not for sale (IE electronics hobby devices running off 240Vac mains) In WA we also have a saftey watchit van from the Power Co. go to local shopping centers, bring in damaged applices's IE cut power leads, cracked plug tops etc and they replace them for the cost of parts only. So all in all, We do not have that many deaths each year from electrocution. Besides I thought it was current that killed and ours is half yours ;o) (I know that a given voltage will cause a given current through a given resistance so unless we are better insulators in AU (and other 240Vac places) we would infact draw more power) I think this was the reason the UK made factories and construction sites use 120Vac (50hz) (hey a new standard) ;o) Regards, Kat. * Tracking #: A09546546457714D9BD2A390F10F0B767675F594 * -- K.A.Q. Electronics Software and Electronic Engineering Perth, Western Australia Phone +61 (0) 419 923 731 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here
Hey Folks ... One uppon a time there was a Protel Eda Users Forum that was a goof adress for Protel related questions and answers where tip and tricks were discussed. But This Forum gets more and more a CHAT about OS related Stuff (Linux vs M$), sometimes a kind of a war (like the Protel bug discussion, can't read that anymore). well okay sometimes it is okay to ask something what experiences are out there regarding video card but ... is that realy protel related ? i realy miss Mr. Lomax whith his knowledge, but i am not wondering that he is offline when i think of the thread about him ... Please Folks, if some of you have problems like the Protel Bugs thread ... go discuss that on a privat base but this is a protel user forum that is as far as i understand it, intended to exchange tip and tricks or sometimes workaround for PROTEL yes PROTEL and not the OS. of course we can discuss whishes as we all know that protel is reading this list. but sometime these discussion go much too far and end up ... off topic the skill this forum had a while ago is not the same it has know. sometimes i realy think of unsubscribing this list. So lets go back to what this list is intended for. Regards Michael Schmitt * Tracking #: 0D77F0ED5B692E418952E67525AAB6E9D75F0573 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Zooming in out...
I think too much BS is being said about Protel's zoom process. If you have trouble maintaining visual focus of your location after zooming in out, instead of using PageUP PageDown, try Shift-PageUp Shift-PageDown. The 1/10th size step really helps you maintain visual location adjust your mouse movements orientation while you work. In my case, I reversed the Shift-Page* keys with the non-Shift-Page* versions so the normal PageUp PageDown works at 1/10th steps. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 3E795800A5E25344B5A992755EC26454A19E5BF6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST)
I thought an application specific keyboard would be handy for an app like this, especially if it could be user configurable with LCD buttons! Just change your buttons around on a normal keyboard create a custom key-map. Since it 4:00 am here, that's the best I could think of... Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:29 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST) I thought an application specific keyboard would be handy for an app like this, especially if it could be user configurable with LCD buttons! -Original Message- From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:42 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST) Brian, my bit to you is: 1. Use dual digital interface video card with LCD monitors. You will be able to work longer ours. Apparently you will need that. You don't need many colours, so colour processing speed is not an issue. You want stable image and no flicker. 2. M/B with 266MHz or higher memory bus speed. QDR is a relatively new thing and therefore insufficiently tested. It's up to you. If it works, then you are one up. 3. ATA166 hard disk. Work localy, save on the network. Buy the time you get to SCSI through the PCI there are no speed benefits. SCSI on board would help, but with the 166 MHz speed on you IDE bus, do you need SCSI? Latest IDE drives are sufficiently reliable. 4. Protel needs number machine, so I say use dual AMD. They need lot of cooling, make sure you have additional fans or, if you want to go fancy, you could install solid state coolers or liquid cooling. They NEED more cooling. 5. Logitech optical cordless wheel ergonomic mouse. Taste the freedom. BTW, I am right handed, so push mouse around with my right hand. Therefoere need Home, Page up and other keys on the left side of the K/B. Anyone seen something like that? Igor -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 12:36 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system (LATEST) Here is what I gathered so far: #1. Use only a consumer grade NVIDIA based GF3, or GF4. With Protel's auto-pan problem, which differs from video card to video card, I can't even be sure that the work station grade NVIDIA cards will not create any unforeseen auto-pan problems. #2. Use 'only' Win2K Professional. The earlier M$ os's are useless WinXP has been demonstrated to have some minor questionable issues with P99SE. #3. Dual processors seem to run fine with Protel, and may help the system run with a better consistent pace. #4. Avoid using Postscript printers, or, if have a postscript printer which can be used in a HP emulated laser printer mode, it will probably be to your advantage to run it in this mode with Protel. #5. Use Win2K's generic mouse driver instead of the fancy ones which come with most Logitech mice. #6. More ram, the better. 2GB with a 3GB swapfile should make the system run as smooth as possible. Remember, my PCB has around 10K nets. Any corrections? Any additions, clear obvious items which I may have missed? So far, I have yet to hear any real Protel speed issues comparing dual AMD VS dual Intel. Also, if I were to go with Intel, should I go DDR, or QDR. Remember, I did say fastest possible Protel system. Also, it should have the least possible problems. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 8F1F3B6020E4674CBC9997FA43BC35230D5669AA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here
Why don't you think the skill is the same? Is it because Mr Lomax has been void of input lately? Well 90% of the other 'experts' are still here I think. The Protel bugs thread is valid on this list AND it's on topic. Even when it gets down to 'what is a bug' vs. 'what isn't a bug', it's still about Protel. Even all the 'my mouse doesn't work with Protel' talk is about Protel, whether or not it's their fault. Video card Qs: Sure it's on topic if it's related to Protel performance. Several times I've asked about solid dual head cards, cards that do 3D stuff well, etc. -Original Message- From: Schmitt Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:45 AM To: Protel EDA Forum (E-Mail) Subject: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here Hey Folks ... One uppon a time there was a Protel Eda Users Forum that was a goof adress for Protel related questions and answers where tip and tricks were discussed. But This Forum gets more and more a CHAT about OS related Stuff (Linux vs M$), sometimes a kind of a war (like the Protel bug discussion, can't read that anymore). well okay sometimes it is okay to ask something what experiences are out there regarding video card but ... is that realy protel related ? i realy miss Mr. Lomax whith his knowledge, but i am not wondering that he is offline when i think of the thread about him ... Please Folks, if some of you have problems like the Protel Bugs thread ... go discuss that on a privat base but this is a protel user forum that is as far as i understand it, intended to exchange tip and tricks or sometimes workaround for PROTEL yes PROTEL and not the OS. of course we can discuss whishes as we all know that protel is reading this list. but sometime these discussion go much too far and end up ... off topic the skill this forum had a while ago is not the same it has know. sometimes i realy think of unsubscribing this list. So lets go back to what this list is intended for. Regards Michael Schmitt * Tracking #: 0D77F0ED5B692E418952E67525AAB6E9D75F0573 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out...
How do you reverse those? -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:53 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Zooming in out... I think too much BS is being said about Protel's zoom process. If you have trouble maintaining visual focus of your location after zooming in out, instead of using PageUP PageDown, try Shift-PageUp Shift-PageDown. The 1/10th size step really helps you maintain visual location adjust your mouse movements orientation while you work. In my case, I reversed the Shift-Page* keys with the non-Shift-Page* versions so the normal PageUp PageDown works at 1/10th steps. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 3E795800A5E25344B5A992755EC26454A19E5BF6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Microstrip footprints
Jami, you need to learn the definition of a bug I guess. Bitch all you want about Protel, I don't care. Just be accurate. You're a professional, not some high school hack. You should be able to refer to a problem as either a bug or a poor implementation, a lack of implementation, or something you just don't like. There is a difference between all four. So here I will be content to simply to state that it is a SUPER GIANT ENORMOUSY GLARING DESIGN OMISSION OF UNPRECIDENTED MAGNITUDE AND PROPORTIONS. YES!!! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 3:23 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Microstrip footprints Protel understands nothing of microstrip mitered corners or microstrip components such as inductors. There are two parts to the problem, one concerning unconnected copper, and the other with shorts. The first, unconnected copper, is similar to a question raised here in this forum a while back regarding dual footprints for a crystal, where a library component needs to contain more copper than just a pad or hole, and in that particular instance, a pad and a hole connected together with copper. This is a problem in Protel, and the current Official soultion is to make whatever copper shapes that you need in your library component, and then check the box that says include copper when you are doing an update (syncronizing) from the Schematic to PCB. You can also do a form of this in the Netlist Manager menu, where you can also include the connected copper. This will solve most Netlist problems and DRC errors (except the short, for which see below), but the problem is that you have to remember to do this every time you update, and I hate to use the Netlist Manager functions because they scare me, having on occasion had it short nets together and lose others completely, forcing me to go back to do another update. The real problem is that you should be able to design copper areas within a library component and have those copper areas remain permanently attached, electrically (or netlist) speaking, to whatever electical pad of land it is connected to, but Protel simply isn't smart enough to do that in it's current incarnation. We can only hope it will show up in DXP Service Pack 3 or 4. If I were to call this a bug here in this form, I would instantly be trashed with reasons why it should not be so. So I will be content to state that it is simply a GLARING DESIGN OMISSION. A secondary issue that you will find when you do this is the short. This has been discussed at length here in this forum, and there really is no acceptable way aroud the DRC error problem here (although you can search the archives for the Lomax Short, which some claim to be at least a partial solution to the problem). Here again, the real problem is that you should be able to design copper areas within a library component and have those copper areas remain permanently attached, even if it constitutes a short, but once again Protel simply isn't smart enough to do that in it's current incarnation. Again, calling this a bug here in this form would simply instantly invoke responses. So here I will be content to simply to state that it is a SUPER GIANT ENORMOUSY GLARING DESIGN OMISSION OF UNPRECIDENTED MAGNITUDE AND PROPORTIONS. In answer to your current problem, I would simply design a library component for both PCB and Schematic for your miter, and simply add it to your schematics and also your pcb's and live with the DRC error. I think that you will find that this is what you will have to do with virtually any RF parts such as these miters in transmission lines or certain types of inductors that would constitute a short at DC. Respecting resistors, capacitors and transmission lines, you might find it useful to note that a 20 mil wide pad on an 0402 surface mount R or C mates perfectly with a 20 mil wide 50 ohm line derived with 12 mil of FR4 over a ground plane (assuming you can tolerate FR4 in your design). JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * - Original Message - From: Daniel Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Microstrip footprints Has anyone developed footprints for microstrip sections ? I have been trying to do this with pads set to certain length and widths. Mitered corners are particularly challenging to make as a library footprint. I have used two pads placed side by side at a 45 degree angle with the desired measurements. If I add fills to this footprint to complete the desired pattern then I will get DRC errors on my board once I load a netlist. It would be nice for this situation to have various pad shapes available (user defined), triangular, trapazoidal, etc. If anyone has found a solution, or knows where
Re: [PEDA] AW: was Speaking of Protel Bugs. space and time and ...
-Original Message- From: Georg Beckmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 July 2002 06:33 To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: [PEDA] AW: was Speaking of Protel Bugs. space and time and ... [cut] BTW. Metric is better, I can explain it to you and you will love it. In Germany we have still 50 Hz, but changed to mains from 220V to 230V. This is for the British, they had 240V and had to give as 10V. ... a classic 'Eurofudge' :-) The EEC standard for mains voltage has been written to harmonise the nominal voltage to 230V, but the tolerances allow the original 220V and 240V voltages to comply. I'm now waiting for the EEC to try and come up with a Europe-wide standard mains plug... Regards, Andy Gulliver * Tracking #: 01F38B0B679E074C84E90B2AF6EA890ECA05A666 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
-Original Message- From: Katinka Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 July 2002 08:36 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. [cut] Besides I thought it was current that killed and ours is half yours ;o) (I know that a given voltage will cause a given current through a given resistance so unless we are better insulators in AU (and other 240Vac places) we would infact draw more power) I think this was the reason the UK made factories and construction sites use 120Vac (50hz) (hey a new standard) ;o) I'd heard that the use of 120V power tools at industrial locations here in the UK was to prevent theft! There is also a safety aspect, as in most cases - especially outdoors - an isolating transformer is used to drop the 230V mains to 120V. In fact most UK factories use 415V 50Hz 3-phase power for 'heavy duty' electrical stuff, in addition to 120V/50Hz (power tools, but not everywhere) and 230V/50Hz (everything else). As an extra complication, when I worked on avionic stuff many years ago the lab. also had outlets for 115V/400Hz 3-phase (aircraft standard). Regards, Andy Gulliver * Tracking #: 1912090030169843ADB0ECF712B9BCA46A824C66 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
JaMi, aren't you mixing up some things in this discussion? See my comments below. I also eventually found this forum, which has been of some help. The problem here is that in general everybody refuses to realize or acknowledge that this (as with many other things) is a bug, notwithstanding the fact that it has been acknowledged in the knowledge base for years and pops up here in the forum on a regular basis. Most people here appear to love Protel and hate Microsoft, so the blame always gets shifted to Microsoft or if not them, the implied stupid user. It was only after several months of using the Microsoft wheel mouse with the Intellimouse software wheel disabled for Protel, that I realized that the mouse wheel had always worked well on a previous employers Protel 98 and Protel 99 (in both Windows 95 and NT) which used a Logitech wheel mouse, and also the trial version of Protel 99 SE that I had at home which also used a Logitech wheel mouse. I bought my own Logitech cordless wheel mouse for work, and installed the Logitech Mouseware, and magically the problems went away, and not just the problems with the keyboard, but all of the problems that I had been having. It was great to have both the wheel and the keyboard shortcuts all back at the same time, but more importantly, the system stopped crashing. Plain and simple. The system stopped crashing on a regular basis. I went from 7 or 8 crash and reboots a day, down to about 1 a week, if that. Microsoft Bashing is not the answer, anymore than Protel Bashing. The real answer is for a software developer the size of Protel / Altium to have a functional relationship with Microsoft. They should be a member of the Microsoft Development Network where they would get regular updates on software and problems, and more importantly, they would get real Microsoft Technical Support on issues such as this. Yes it cost a few sheckels to join the MDN, probably a few grand a year, certainly more than I can afford, but there is no excuse in the world for Protel / Altium not to be a member. Sometimes I wonder if they even know that the MDN and other forms of Microsoft Support available to OEM Software Developers exists. When you install a piece of hardware (e.g. a mouse), the driver software either goes with the hardware product, or you may chose to install the Microsoft driver (if supplied). The application SW (like Protel) should not need to mess around with any special HW feature (like it used to be in old DOS times), but just call system (Windows) functions and leave the rest to the OS. I am just a simple-minded hardware developer, but if you state that the application works fine with a Logitech mouse and does not with a Microsoft mouse, there cannot be any question about who is to blame. I have no preference for any OS; I want a working system, that's all. I just don't care about who writes drivers, be it the OS people, be it the hardware supplier. I dare to demand from SW the same as anyone takes for granted from any HW product they purchase: it shall function as specified. In consequence: If Microsoft mice don't work with Microsoft SW (MS is the OS provider, not Protel!), don't buy mice from Microsoft. It's as simple as that. The fact that use of the Logitech drivers eliminates the problem with Protel speaks for itself. I don't mind your devotion for Microsoft, I use their SW as well, as it is part of my work, but please let us stick to the facts. By the way, how do you know whether Altium is member of MDN or not? Gisbert Auge N.A.T. GmbH www.nateurope.com * Tracking #: 3AB2FBE7FC15B94F91B431E004355C6778F63EFA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out...
With a PCB document open: Servers Menu (down arrow menu item next to File)/Customize/ShortCutKeys/PCBHotKeys Menu Button - Edit look for PCB:Zoom , double click to edit. -Original Message- From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 6:05 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out... How do you reverse those? -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:53 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Zooming in out... I think too much BS is being said about Protel's zoom process. If you have trouble maintaining visual focus of your location after zooming in out, instead of using PageUP PageDown, try Shift-PageUp Shift-PageDown. The 1/10th size step really helps you maintain visual location adjust your mouse movements orientation while you work. In my case, I reversed the Shift-Page* keys with the non-Shift-Page* versions so the normal PageUp PageDown works at 1/10th steps. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 ** ** * Tracking #: 3E795800A5E25344B5A992755EC26454A19E5BF6 * ** ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
- Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Where is there more detail about this fix? I tried moving both my Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar box into my work area. I also tried having my Windows Task Manager always on top in my work area. Each produced little or no change. Am I missing something, or is there detail somewhere else that I can be referred to? I assume we are talking about the problem when panning off the edge of the board and some buffer gets filled up producing a 'locked' condition where the buffer has to be emptied before your mouse movement is seen or responded to. I made several remarks how this could be remedied by Protel during a discussion several years ago. If you want, my patch is here, copy this link into your internet explorer address bar: ftp://ftp.point-lab.com/quartus/Public/ProtelUsers/ Take the ProtelAutopanPatch.zip file. Read the readme file inside the zip look at the example placement picture. If you system is slow, the panning will become more chunky, but the mouse will never get stuck when panning over a blank area of you circuit board. If your system is fast, there should be no change in the panning performance, except that again, the mouse will no longer get stuck at any time. I you use just my horizontal patch un-dock Protel's tolls so that the cover as much vertical PCB area as possible on one side, again, this should almost eliminate the sticking of the mouse pointer. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 93BCB2C6DF12CD4C9D0DC6D09EA7E745DFE7CD47 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out...
Open a dummy PCB document. Select the first arrow pointing down at the top left of the menu bar go into Customize / Shortcut Keys. Select PCBHotKeys. Chose Menu/Edit. Now, you should have a list of all the current PCBHotKeys. Scroll down the list to all of the PCB:Zoom functions. On the right, you should see the PgUp/PgDn Shift+PgUp/Shift+PgDn. On the left where is says only 'PCB:Zoom', right click choose properties. In the middle of the properties, invert the check 'Shift' modifier key for the 4 PgUp PgDn commands. Close/Close you are done. Good luck. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:04 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out... How do you reverse those? -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:53 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Zooming in out... I think too much BS is being said about Protel's zoom process. If you have trouble maintaining visual focus of your location after zooming in out, instead of using PageUP PageDown, try Shift-PageUp Shift-PageDown. The 1/10th size step really helps you maintain visual location adjust your mouse movements orientation while you work. In my case, I reversed the Shift-Page* keys with the non-Shift-Page* versions so the normal PageUp PageDown works at 1/10th steps. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 3E795800A5E25344B5A992755EC26454A19E5BF6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Hi, The symtoms currently exhibited on this forum is commonly known as PDRS (Pre-DXP Release Syndrom).It effects people in different ways especially relating to the mains voltage, current and frequency of their home appliances. PLEASE Protel release DXP NOW for the sanity of this and other innocent groupsat least we will have something relevant to talk about :-) BTW.. This group has always been of great help even if it was sometimes just to brighten my day! * Tracking #: FDA13837633E9D408828D8F0E1355C09015A7FEA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. (very off topic, and more to do with outdoor power tools)
I think that the 120(110?)V is also taken from a transformer that has a centre tap to earth, so that the maximum potential to earth is 60V. I hadn't heard that it was to prevent theft. Interesting point. This is so off topic that I am now going to make a Protel specific comment - About 18 months ago I had the Microsoft wheel mouse problem. I upgraded the Intellimouse drivers and everything was fine. Jami, have you tried that? Steve. -Original Message- From: Andy Gulliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 July 2002 09:21 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. snip I'd heard that the use of 120V power tools at industrial locations here in the UK was to prevent theft! There is also a safety aspect, as in most cases - especially outdoors - an isolating transformer is used to drop the 230V mains to 120V. * Tracking #: 1BFC63D89274C7468FD92DCE443A743B2C24D615 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Keyboards with left nav keys.
On 12:29 AM 24/07/2002 -0700, Tony Karavidas said: I thought an application specific keyboard would be handy for an app like this, especially if it could be user configurable with LCD buttons! There is a company called Goldtouch that sells an expensive keyboard that can be split in the middle to allow more natural wrist position. It is designed as truly ergonomic (as opposed to anything with curves that is labelled ergonomic - believe me there is a big difference and, no, it is not all a matter of common sense). I did not like the keyboard, partly as I did not use it enough to get used to the Protel keys being on the left, partly as I thought the mechanics of the split/raising mechanism were not quite right. It was stable enough, but really only when you supported it better with a couple of small wedges. http://www.goldtouch.com The Goldtouch mouse was a shocker but the wrist pads and, especially, the mouse mat is really nice. I use the mouse mat all the time even with the optical - nice soft area for the wrist but firmer area for the mouse. Excellent accuracy. We were given the system to trial (my partner is an ergonomist) - we paid for the mats and wrist rests but sent the mice and kb back after evaluating it for clients. There are also plenty of companies that sell PS/2 and USB numeric keypads that could be put into nav key mode (NumLock off) but then you have the silly nav key layout. Alternatively, a left handed keyboard may suffice: http://www.keyalt.com/keyboards/lefthandkeyb.htm Or a keyboard that can be split into sections and positioned as you wish: http://www.keyalt.com/keyboards/ergoflex.htm Bound to be others as well. Ian Wilson * Tracking #: 671EE483B819A64B85A0ED3AB65D9ACEE22D8294 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
Usually when you hold that footprint in the pcb editor and press the 'L' key, the component changes the side, with mirroring and everything. Rene Steve Wiseman wrote: Hi, all. I've been plagued with this on my last 2 double-sided boards, and it's making things like assembly instructions a nightmare... Components that, for all the world, look like they're correctly on the bottom of the board - pads on the bottom, silk-screen on the bottom, not mirrored, etc. However, the components claim to be on the top layer. Any attempt to put them on the bottom layer puts them on the top. This looks like knowlege base item 2034, except that a) I've only ever used Protel on this design (The KB item says that it occurs when you import files from Autotrax and Tango - I suspect it also occurs when a file is imported from Protel - it's somthing I've done on both of these projects) b) They say it's fixed in SP6, which I'm running. The workaround isn't an option, since I don't have PCB V2.x , so I guess I'm going to have to unplace all those components, and place them again. This is going to take many hours, so any hints for a better plan would be gratefully accepted. Until proven otherwise, I'd recommend people doing double-sided designs to stay away from the file - import (and cutpaste) in the explorer window. It's particularly troublesome, since I didn't notice the failure until I'd shipped the gerbers... * Tracking #: 0AB3BA83BDBACB4A9EF115064A35A9615C8D692D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
24/07/2002 11:51:24, Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Usually when you hold that footprint in the pcb editor and press the 'L' key, the component changes the side, with mirroring and everything. Yes - that's how it's supposed to work Unfortunately, I have components on the bottom of the board, but if I go into component - properties, they say top layer. This makes it impossible to generate pickplace instructions for the assembly house, and leads to much confusion. I don't know how those components got top layer set without being moved to the top layer, and I certainly don't know how to mend it... (Hmm, can I export to spread, change those attributes, and re-import? The help file isn't any use...) Steve Wiseman * Tracking #: F6BE45961F20414BB7F39312B699BA9F3A5BD4F9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
Are your Library parts built with the pads on the top or the bottom? If you build a library part with pads on the bottom layer, when the component is placed on the PBC it will record itself as being on the top layer, even though all the pads are on the bottom. -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 July 2002 11:33 To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set. Hi, all. I've been plagued with this on my last 2 double-sided boards, and it's making things like assembly instructions a nightmare... Components that, for all the world, look like they're correctly on the bottom of the board - pads on the bottom, silk-screen on the bottom, not mirrored, etc. However, the components claim to be on the top layer. Any attempt to put them on the bottom layer puts them on the top. This looks like knowlege base item 2034, except that a) I've only ever used Protel on this design (The KB item says that it occurs when you import files from Autotrax and Tango - I suspect it also occurs when a file is imported from Protel - it's somthing I've done on both of these projects) b) They say it's fixed in SP6, which I'm running. The workaround isn't an option, since I don't have PCB V2.x , so I guess I'm going to have to unplace all those components, and place them again. This is going to take many hours, so any hints for a better plan would be gratefully accepted. Until proven otherwise, I'd recommend people doing double-sided designs to stay away from the file - import (and cutpaste) in the explorer window. It's particularly troublesome, since I didn't notice the failure until I'd shipped the gerbers... Cheers, Steve Wiseman * Tracking #: 1EC96C0AD632D142B7623D0D303E60BE1BA37891 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
24/07/2002 12:17:08, Paul Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are your Library parts built with the pads on the top or the bottom? Good call, but no, they're on the top. I use these parts on both sides of the boards - the ones on top are fine. Having failed to reproduce this on a trivial board, I've just gone back through my backups, and it actually looks like the parts flipped during a very straightforward placement session, while I was placing other components. In one pcb, all was well. In the next, these components had the top layer effect. (In fact, all components that were on the bottom now seem to be top layer.) These boards aren't secret - if anyone wants them, I can post them, if it will help. Steve * Tracking #: 3C62866BA4A75349BC306CF973D24C1CFB1863E1 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
Steve and Paul, it dosn´t matter how the components are build. Nevertheless one should be able to change the layer of the Designator by doubleclicking on it or on the component. I guess there is something realy out of range with Steves system or PCB. I only offer to check weather this behavior is part of the PCB by testing it on my machine. Freundliche Grüße / Best regards Waldemar Kulajew Entwicklung Drehgeber Sensorik Development Encoders Sensors _ _ _ _ Fritz Kuebler GmbH Schubertstrasse 47 78054 Villingen-Schwenningen Germany Tel.: +49-7720-3903-44 Fax: +49-7720-811709 http://www.kuebler.com P.S. Neuheiten von Kuebler: Besuchen Sie uns unter http://www.kuebler.com/German/News/Index_News_d.htm News from Kuebler: Please visit us at: http://www.kuebler.com/English/News/Index_News_gb.htm * Tracking #: 288D23EFC71F8C4DA96CF647B0E02800BF6CBFC0 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
On 12:03 PM 24/07/2002 +0100, Steve Wiseman said: 24/07/2002 11:51:24, Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Usually when you hold that footprint in the pcb editor and press the 'L' key, the component changes the side, with mirroring and everything. Yes - that's how it's supposed to work Unfortunately, I have components on the bottom of the board, but if I go into component - properties, they say top layer. This makes it impossible to generate pickplace instructions for the assembly house, and leads to much confusion. I don't know how those components got top layer set without being moved to the top layer, and I certainly don't know how to mend it... (Hmm, can I export to spread, change those attributes, and re-import? The help file isn't any use...) Steve Wiseman Yes, you should be able to fix the problem either using the export to spread or save-as an ASCII format and then use macros or pattern matching to do a (careful) text search and replace. I usually try changing a few attributes manually and then reload the PCB into P99SE and check to see it has done what I want. The ASCII file format is pretty easy to figure out. Ian Wilson * Tracking #: 635204CCEF38C74998FF243FC47E79D969D3BB46 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here
-Original Message- From: Schmitt Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hey Folks ... One uppon a time there was a Protel Eda Users Forum that was a goof adress for Protel related questions and answers where tip and tricks were discussed. Mr Schmitt would like to offer his wisdom, including unsolicited tips and tricks that he wants to share with others? Then Mr Schmitt should feel free to offer those free bits of advise. That would really be great, and I'm sure that it would be appreciated by those who have nothing more to offer than the ability to acquire free information garnered from others efforts!!! These other issues that you note... Operating systems impact the use of Protel is a very fundamental and critical way. I will not launch into a dull repetition of the reasons why, as one would have be quite stupid to not get it by now, considering the number of time this question of relevance has been covered. Video cards (and other related CAD system components) are related by virtue of the general topic of Being productive with Protel: How? i realy miss Mr. Lomax whith his knowledge, but i am not wondering that he is offline when i think of the thread about him ... Well, if a self-proclaimed guru is what you want, please feel free to sign up for one of Mr Lomax's 31 flavors at his Yahoo groups. It's a free world, Mr Schmitt. I think that the success of this group and the corresponding failure of Mr Lomax's Yahoo groups has already made it clear that the Lomax model isn't the standard by which the rest of the world works. aj * Tracking #: 630775DEFA98C943BFE54BD2D61B65496426198E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
Re: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here
Perhaps it would be a good idea to move this forum to more of a web page type environment, where there are a number of different topics (i.e.. protel bugs, software add-on's, hardware, footprints, schematic questions, layout questions, etc..) Within each topic there would be threads which you could read, contribute to, and be emailed only the reply of the threads you are interested in. Take a look at the forums www.vwvortex.com, this is a great site that is very well laid out and informative. Tim Fifield. -Original Message- From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:04 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here Why don't you think the skill is the same? Is it because Mr Lomax has been void of input lately? Well 90% of the other 'experts' are still here I think. The Protel bugs thread is valid on this list AND it's on topic. Even when it gets down to 'what is a bug' vs. 'what isn't a bug', it's still about Protel. Even all the 'my mouse doesn't work with Protel' talk is about Protel, whether or not it's their fault. Video card Qs: Sure it's on topic if it's related to Protel performance. Several times I've asked about solid dual head cards, cards that do 3D stuff well, etc. -Original Message- From: Schmitt Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:45 AM To: Protel EDA Forum (E-Mail) Subject: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here Hey Folks ... One uppon a time there was a Protel Eda Users Forum that was a goof adress for Protel related questions and answers where tip and tricks were discussed. But This Forum gets more and more a CHAT about OS related Stuff (Linux vs M$), sometimes a kind of a war (like the Protel bug discussion, can't read that anymore). well okay sometimes it is okay to ask something what experiences are out there regarding video card but ... is that realy protel related ? i realy miss Mr. Lomax whith his knowledge, but i am not wondering that he is offline when i think of the thread about him ... Please Folks, if some of you have problems like the Protel Bugs thread ... go discuss that on a privat base but this is a protel user forum that is as far as i understand it, intended to exchange tip and tricks or sometimes workaround for PROTEL yes PROTEL and not the OS. of course we can discuss whishes as we all know that protel is reading this list. but sometime these discussion go much too far and end up ... off topic the skill this forum had a while ago is not the same it has know. sometimes i realy think of unsubscribing this list. So lets go back to what this list is intended for. Regards Michael Schmitt * Tracking #: 0D77F0ED5B692E418952E67525AAB6E9D75F0573 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Top / Bottom component woes - PCBs attached
I saw no problems on the one board 11 - everything with bottom side pads appeared to be on the bottom. But on 12 I saw what you're talking about. Then I generated a project library from it, and lo-and-behold about half of the components have their pads on the bottom. There are a few components which don't, and those have at least one instance on the PCB which is correct. So I speculate that sometime in the distant past you got some mangled components from somewhere, and just propogated the problems forward with copy-and-paste. You did, after all, mention that the problem only occured with designs where you had done extensive importing. I'd guess that most likely the origin was in changing the layer of the ref des, which used to confuse Protel severely about which layer a part was on. As to fixing it, I don't see any handy way except to clean up the library, then reload the affected parts from the library and flip them to the bottom as needed. Steve Hendrix * Tracking #: 6BC4B4BF6EDAB64D962DECBEC555AA03CFA4DC26 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
Could you have done a global change and changed the attributes, but not the component. I know I did this once a few years ago. Rob * Tracking #: F24B2F10F97C094B8B31F7E2C91D7B57891B3470 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] AW: was Speaking of Protel Bugs. space and time and ...
OK, folks, I know metric is better. I was just joking. But seriously, it is on-topic when you consider that some electronic parts are in metric, and some in Imperial (U.S. folks call Imperial standard, because it IS our standard). This unit stuff can cause lots of grief because of imprecision in rounding/truncation for pad spacing. It can be very annoying when creating parts from a metric datasheet, and then manually routing in an Imperial snap grid. I don't have any answer for this other than to grin and bear it. The U.S. has more inertia against metric than any other country. We will probably never change to metric. Sometime last year I was discussing a mechanical issue about an electronic assembly fastener with my father (a mech engineer). He asked me It's not some damned non-standard metric thread, is it? That's no joke, he really said it. LOL. In the U.S., NEVER talk meters, celsius, etc. to anyone except other engineers. They will look at you as if you are some alien from outer space. And you are, because you're an engineer... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Georg Beckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:32 AM Subject: [PEDA] AW: was Speaking of Protel Bugs. space and time and ... Hi Ivan, just a practical advice, why not write JUL-24-2002 or like we did for years 24-JUL-2002 or 2002-JUL-24 like we have to do it now here in Eurpoe. The trick is, if you use 4 numbers for the year and letters for the month, everybody can interpret it correctly. ( Opposite 07-01-02 ) BTW. Metric is better, I can explain it to you and you will love it. In Germany we have still 50 Hz, but changed to mains from 220V to 230V. This is for the British, they had 240V and had to give as 10V. Georg * Tracking #: 74C5231D8ADCB946B08D6EFE65AA7E4ED2A69633 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] As far as the Zoom issue. It was obviously a design decision. As such with user interface decisions, some people will like it, and some won't. If the majority find the decision useable and can adapt to it in a short period of time it was a good decision. Um...pgup/pgdn is a descision made back in the late 1980s. That is, the decision was made long before wheel mice and (useable) windows, and long before any standards had been agreed upon regarding zoom functuions and the like. I found it quite annoying for the first three or four years, until one day I found myself finally used to it. NOw I get slightly irritated when other apps require some archane group of key commands to zoom/unzoom, like the old +/- zoom crap, whcih also requires the shift key...Gr. Chasing the dislikes of a few users leads to products that don't ship and the competition gets so far ahead that the company goes under. FWIW, Chasing the likes and dislikes of a few fore-sighted users makes a great deal more sense to the long-term health of a company that to listen to the bleating of a thousand cloned sheep...Unfortunately, convincing the overpaid sheep that get hired into most marketing positions of that truth is another matter entirely... Can we now drop this subject. No. The subject(s) will not be dropped until they have been resolved, whether you, or I, or most anyone else likes it, because some new subscriber will always come along and bring it back up, all because Protel has not resolved the issue(s). It has been kicked to death and I for one am really tired of it. There is a rilly neato button within most mail readers. I call it the delete button. Hope yours has one ;) aj * Tracking #: 6162118C5AAE4C499408E25B7F4E36B0D26ABBE5 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Microstrip footprints
Daniel, Ian, there is a further possible design corruption problem when using the Assign Net to Connected Copper function during an update. If you have updated a footprint to a new footprint at the same time that you are updating with the connected copper checked. You can really screw up your database if the new footprint touches some copper that the old part did not, or the new part is in a different rotation and touches some copper (typically GND) that it shouldn't have. The part may be updated, make the illegal connection, then the update copper from connected pads updates the illegally connected copper to the wrong net (usually changing it from GND in my designs). I prefer to run the update, check all existing components in the existing layout (typically only those already placed and routed) to see that they don't make a short to something they shouldn't, then I will run the Netlist Manager, Update Free Primitives From Component Pads function. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:06 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Microstrip footprints SNIP When you synchronise from a Sch to the PCB using Tools/Update PCB you can check the Assign Net to Connected Copper check box but I found this made the synch slower than otherwise and by more than the time taken to manually run the Update Free Primitives from Component Pads process - I did not do a careful check though. Ian Wilson * Tracking #: 1AAC93682FBEEE4D8614CDD9E9026534892FEC04 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Kudos
I guess I'm in the minority, but I find the Protel user interface quite powerful and, for the most part, intuitively consistent across servers. The labyrinthine command interface of Autocad and PCB packages using a similar interface (like Pads) are tedious and extremely trying. Protel is missing a bet by not offering a stand-alone full-featured Mechanical CAD package based on the 99SE interface. But *Please*, Protel, be sure to maintain full two-way file conversion with all ACAD File Formats ever released! Brian * Tracking #: 732E05315EAC2942A3FEB2F75BD40D71CF4E8FD5 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] AW: was Speaking of Protel Bugs. space and time and ...
There's also a certain resistance to metric in the UK. The move to metric on PCBs here isn't made any easier by the Protel autorouter making a mess of routing to pads not on a 1mil grid (he says, steering the message back on-topic :-). Hopefully the DXP router will cope with this, as well as following a few (more) design rules... Regards, Andy Gulliver still grinning and bearing it (just!) -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 July 2002 15:52 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] AW: was Speaking of Protel Bugs. space and time and ... OK, folks, I know metric is better. I was just joking. But seriously, it is on-topic when you consider that some electronic parts are in metric, and some in Imperial (U.S. folks call Imperial standard, because it IS our standard). This unit stuff can cause lots of grief because of imprecision in rounding/truncation for pad spacing. It can be very annoying when creating parts from a metric datasheet, and then manually routing in an Imperial snap grid. I don't have any answer for this other than to grin and bear it. The U.S. has more inertia against metric than any other country. We will probably never change to metric. Sometime last year I was discussing a mechanical issue about an electronic assembly fastener with my father (a mech engineer). He asked me It's not some damned non-standard metric thread, is it? That's no joke, he really said it. LOL. In the U.S., NEVER talk meters, celsius, etc. to anyone except other engineers. They will look at you as if you are some alien from outer space. And you are, because you're an engineer... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com [cut] * Tracking #: 86E67A9425338341AE97AEE5B506E191547438A3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
Protel is missing a bet by not offering a stand-alone full-featured Mechanical CAD package based on the 99SE interface. But *Please*, Protel, be sure to maintain full two-way file conversion with all ACAD File Formats ever released! Good idea, but not easy - Autodesk loves to change the formats with each release. BTW, I recently saw LinuxCAD's website. It seems they offer an AutoCAD replacement for $99. And they offer versions that run on Windows, for those who don't use Linux yet. I don't know how good their product is, I just saw the website. I repeat my advice to Altium to release a free schematic editor. This way they can overcome Orcad in the marketplace, and get more suite sales by seeding the market with Protel users. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brian Sherer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:40 AM Subject: [PEDA] Kudos I guess I'm in the minority, but I find the Protel user interface quite powerful and, for the most part, intuitively consistent across servers. The labyrinthine command interface of Autocad and PCB packages using a similar interface (like Pads) are tedious and extremely trying. Protel is missing a bet by not offering a stand-alone full-featured Mechanical CAD package based on the 99SE interface. But *Please*, Protel, be sure to maintain full two-way file conversion with all ACAD File Formats ever released! Brian * Tracking #: 5ACD4749145AF34793AD3512AC706DC7F73CC6D4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out...
Cool! Thanks. I noticed the Action = MicroOut has an apparent log taper (like a log pot vs a linear pot). It seems to have coarse zoom when I'm zoomed out and much finer change when I'm zoomed in. Do you notice that too? Tony -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:47 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out... Open a dummy PCB document. Select the first arrow pointing down at the top left of the menu bar go into Customize / Shortcut Keys. Select PCBHotKeys. Chose Menu/Edit. Now, you should have a list of all the current PCBHotKeys. Scroll down the list to all of the PCB:Zoom functions. On the right, you should see the PgUp/PgDn Shift+PgUp/Shift+PgDn. On the left where is says only 'PCB:Zoom', right click choose properties. In the middle of the properties, invert the check 'Shift' modifier key for the 4 PgUp PgDn commands. Close/Close you are done. Good luck. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:04 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out... How do you reverse those? -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:53 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Zooming in out... I think too much BS is being said about Protel's zoom process. If you have trouble maintaining visual focus of your location after zooming in out, instead of using PageUP PageDown, try Shift-PageUp Shift-PageDown. The 1/10th size step really helps you maintain visual location adjust your mouse movements orientation while you work. In my case, I reversed the Shift-Page* keys with the non-Shift-Page* versions so the normal PageUp PageDown works at 1/10th steps. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 3E795800A5E25344B5A992755EC26454A19E5BF6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
24/07/2002 16:52:20, Watnoski, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a similar problem where the parts were moved to the bottom layer after selecting the group and pressing L. The parts were on the bottom but not mirrored. Hmm - all these ways of changing layer :) All I ever do / did was hit tab on a selected component, and change it in the dialog box (using global if necessary). So, it's probably not that, either (and 'L' seems to do what it says it should). I'm still confused about how I got my design into this state. - which leads me to my next question - Once I've exported things to a spread, and made my changes, how do I import it again? I'm sure it's obvious, but I can't find it anywhere... Cheers, Steve Wiseman * Tracking #: C476EE5E7978474885F5C68438166280428E97CC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Top / Bottom component woes - PCBs attached
[PEDA] Hot Linking
I want to export a schematic to a database so that I can try some hot linking. The protel handbook (pg. 163) says: Select File Export to Database to pop up the Export Database dialog. But when I select File Export all I get is AutoCAD DWG/DXF and PCAD 2000 ASCII. Am I missing something? Am I looking in the wrong spot? The reason I want to do this is because I have a schematic drawn with generic parts i.e. all resistors have LibRef of res3. I want to change the schematics so each component has its own specific LibRef such as ERJ-6ENF24R9V. Tim Fifield * Tracking #: AFBD0364E0C48B4C8C35978334A6393880320B4B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
When you're done editing stuff in the spreadsheet, check the File/Update menu item. Whoops I just tried that (edited two parts and tried update) and it said Sorry, board was not updated correctly Damn it! -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:41 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set. 24/07/2002 16:52:20, Watnoski, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a similar problem where the parts were moved to the bottom layer after selecting the group and pressing L. The parts were on the bottom but not mirrored. Hmm - all these ways of changing layer :) All I ever do / did was hit tab on a selected component, and change it in the dialog box (using global if necessary). So, it's probably not that, either (and 'L' seems to do what it says it should). I'm still confused about how I got my design into this state. - which leads me to my next question - Once I've exported things to a spread, and made my changes, how do I import it again? I'm sure it's obvious, but I can't find it anywhere... Cheers, Steve Wiseman * Tracking #: C476EE5E7978474885F5C68438166280428E97CC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
However, I checked my edits and they did stick, so I don't know yet what it's complaining about. -Original Message- From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:10 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: RE: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set. When you're done editing stuff in the spreadsheet, check the File/Update menu item. Whoops I just tried that (edited two parts and tried update) and it said Sorry, board was not updated correctly Damn it! * Tracking #: C7435A9E07951E4885ABAEED4612B2B73DC30679 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Hot Linking
It should be right between those two! Wow I wonder if resource file for your menus has been modified??? You could always put it back I suppose. -Original Message- From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:45 AM To: Protel EDA Form Subject: [PEDA] Hot Linking I want to export a schematic to a database so that I can try some hot linking. The protel handbook (pg. 163) says: Select File Export to Database to pop up the Export Database dialog. But when I select File Export all I get is AutoCAD DWG/DXF and PCAD 2000 ASCII. Am I missing something? Am I looking in the wrong spot? The reason I want to do this is because I have a schematic drawn with generic parts i.e. all resistors have LibRef of res3. I want to change the schematics so each component has its own specific LibRef such as ERJ-6ENF24R9V. Tim Fifield * Tracking #: AFBD0364E0C48B4C8C35978334A6393880320B4B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Hot Linking
If you know how to edit the menus, here is the info for that missing selection: Text: Export to Database Process: ExportSchematicToDatabase Params: (I left params blank) Stick that in your File/Export menu and it should look normal. -Original Message- From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:45 AM To: Protel EDA Form Subject: [PEDA] Hot Linking I want to export a schematic to a database so that I can try some hot linking. The protel handbook (pg. 163) says: Select File Export to Database to pop up the Export Database dialog. But when I select File Export all I get is AutoCAD DWG/DXF and PCAD 2000 ASCII. Am I missing something? Am I looking in the wrong spot? The reason I want to do this is because I have a schematic drawn with generic parts i.e. all resistors have LibRef of res3. I want to change the schematics so each component has its own specific LibRef such as ERJ-6ENF24R9V. Tim Fifield * Tracking #: AFBD0364E0C48B4C8C35978334A6393880320B4B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:40:27 -0700, Brian Sherer wrote: Protel is missing a bet by not offering a stand-alone full-featured Mechanical CAD package based on the 99SE interface. But *Please*, Protel, be sure to maintain full two-way file conversion with all ACAD File Formats ever released! Good luck. There are already lots of good mechanical CAD packages out there. And *none* of them have good ACAD -Â [insert your favorite CAD package here] file conversion. Autocad (purposely) makes sure it's a moving and non-documented target with each new release. I'd much rather Protel spent their time doing the business they are in -- making the best PCB design entry and layout tools possible for the lowest price possible. Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems * Tracking #: CB75C87FC6469C41A0FF92D2D9F6CD70D16876D8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bottom components with 'top' attribute set.
24/07/2002 18:11:48, Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I checked my edits and they did stick, so I don't know yet what it's complaining about. I get an error box saying - No other document is associated with this spreadsheet. Do not close and reopen a spreadsheet before performing an Update. Waah - I didn't close anything. (Sequence of events was - go to PCB, Edit - Export to Spread, turn off everything but components, leave on all attributes. Make the changes in the spreadsheet. File - Update (while the spreadsheet is still open). and boom, there's the error. Steve * Tracking #: E5BD97839FF36B4FAA34634DF13C7989143C67D4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Hot Linking
I just checked 3 other computers in the office with Protel on them and they are all the same as mine! I'm going to try to add the process. Tim -Original Message- From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:17 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Hot Linking If you know how to edit the menus, here is the info for that missing selection: Text: Export to Database Process: ExportSchematicToDatabase Params: (I left params blank) Stick that in your File/Export menu and it should look normal. -Original Message- From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:45 AM To: Protel EDA Form Subject: [PEDA] Hot Linking I want to export a schematic to a database so that I can try some hot linking. The protel handbook (pg. 163) says: Select File Export to Database to pop up the Export Database dialog. But when I select File Export all I get is AutoCAD DWG/DXF and PCAD 2000 ASCII. Am I missing something? Am I looking in the wrong spot? The reason I want to do this is because I have a schematic drawn with generic parts i.e. all resistors have LibRef of res3. I want to change the schematics so each component has its own specific LibRef such as ERJ-6ENF24R9V. Tim Fifield * Tracking #: AFBD0364E0C48B4C8C35978334A6393880320B4B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Hot Linking
Ok, that seemed to work. Have not tried actually exporting anything though. Is there anything else in the export that I'm missing? Could you please tell me what text/parameters you have in the import? Again, I only see the AutoCAD and PCAD stuff. Is there an easy way to check the other menus for missing parameters? Now I'm wondering what else may be missing and why? Tim -Original Message- From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:17 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Hot Linking If you know how to edit the menus, here is the info for that missing selection: Text: Export to Database Process: ExportSchematicToDatabase Params: (I left params blank) Stick that in your File/Export menu and it should look normal. -Original Message- From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:45 AM To: Protel EDA Form Subject: [PEDA] Hot Linking I want to export a schematic to a database so that I can try some hot linking. The protel handbook (pg. 163) says: Select File Export to Database to pop up the Export Database dialog. But when I select File Export all I get is AutoCAD DWG/DXF and PCAD 2000 ASCII. Am I missing something? Am I looking in the wrong spot? The reason I want to do this is because I have a schematic drawn with generic parts i.e. all resistors have LibRef of res3. I want to change the schematics so each component has its own specific LibRef such as ERJ-6ENF24R9V. Tim Fifield * Tracking #: AFBD0364E0C48B4C8C35978334A6393880320B4B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Microstrip footprints
I did not know about the ability to included unconnected copper. Thanks, that may prove quite useful. As far as the problem of shorts, I have come up with my own solution to this. I place matching netlabels on either ends of the microstrip symbol, so that I maintain a netlist connection. I do not want these netlabels to appear on the schematic when printed so I change their color to white and print in color to the monochrone laser printer. I use a non-white background while working on the netlabels so that they are visible to me, but change the background back to white before printing. This has worked well for me, and removes DRC errors even when the pads used to make the microstrip sections are overlapping each other. My only difficult is with making the odd shapes with fills, etc., and eliminating the DRCs created for the non-pad copper in the footprint. I think if I use the Update Free Primitives from Component Pads command which Ian mentioned, being careful not to create shorts that I do not intend, this will solve my problems temporarily. I appreciate the help on this issue, and hope that Protel will consider adding better utilities for handling microstrip design. Perhaps someone will get ambitious and write a server which creates the microstrip pattern from the information embedded into the schematic symbol. Wouldn't that be slick ! Daniel -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 3:23 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Microstrip footprints Protel understands nothing of microstrip mitered corners or microstrip components such as inductors. There are two parts to the problem, one concerning unconnected copper, and the other with shorts. The first, unconnected copper, is similar to a question raised here in this forum a while back regarding dual footprints for a crystal, where a library component needs to contain more copper than just a pad or hole, and in that particular instance, a pad and a hole connected together with copper. This is a problem in Protel, and the current Official soultion is to make whatever copper shapes that you need in your library component, and then check the box that says include copper when you are doing an update (syncronizing) from the Schematic to PCB. You can also do a form of this in the Netlist Manager menu, where you can also include the connected copper. This will solve most Netlist problems and DRC errors (except the short, for which see below), but the problem is that you have to remember to do this every time you update, and I hate to use the Netlist Manager functions because they scare me, having on occasion had it short nets together and lose others completely, forcing me to go back to do another update. The real problem is that you should be able to design copper areas within a library component and have those copper areas remain permanently attached, electrically (or netlist) speaking, to whatever electical pad of land it is connected to, but Protel simply isn't smart enough to do that in it's current incarnation. We can only hope it will show up in DXP Service Pack 3 or 4. If I were to call this a bug here in this form, I would instantly be trashed with reasons why it should not be so. So I will be content to state that it is simply a GLARING DESIGN OMISSION. A secondary issue that you will find when you do this is the short. This has been discussed at length here in this forum, and there really is no acceptable way aroud the DRC error problem here (although you can search the archives for the Lomax Short, which some claim to be at least a partial solution to the problem). Here again, the real problem is that you should be able to design copper areas within a library component and have those copper areas remain permanently attached, even if it constitutes a short, but once again Protel simply isn't smart enough to do that in it's current incarnation. Again, calling this a bug here in this form would simply instantly invoke responses. So here I will be content to simply to state that it is a SUPER GIANT ENORMOUSY GLARING DESIGN OMISSION OF UNPRECIDENTED MAGNITUDE AND PROPORTIONS. In answer to your current problem, I would simply design a library component for both PCB and Schematic for your miter, and simply add it to your schematics and also your pcb's and live with the DRC error. I think that you will find that this is what you will have to do with virtually any RF parts such as these miters in transmission lines or certain types of inductors that would constitute a short at DC. Respecting resistors, capacitors and transmission lines, you might find it useful to note that a 20 mil wide pad on an 0402 surface mount R or C mates perfectly with a 20 mil wide 50 ohm line derived with 12 mil of FR4 over a ground plane (assuming you can tolerate FR4 in your design). JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * - Original Message - From: Daniel
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
Except for the p-w in schematic p-t for PCB, I always cross these 2, I have to agree with the other Brian. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Brian Sherer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:40 AM Subject: [PEDA] Kudos I guess I'm in the minority, but I find the Protel user interface quite powerful and, for the most part, intuitively consistent across servers. The labyrinthine command interface of Autocad and PCB packages using a similar interface (like Pads) are tedious and extremely trying. Protel is missing a bet by not offering a stand-alone full-featured Mechanical CAD package based on the 99SE interface. But *Please*, Protel, be sure to maintain full two-way file conversion with all ACAD File Formats ever released! Brian * Tracking #: 732E05315EAC2942A3FEB2F75BD40D71CF4E8FD5 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out...
Cool! Thanks. I noticed the Action = MicroOut has an apparent log taper (like a log pot vs a linear pot). It seems to have coarse zoom when I'm zoomed out and much finer change when I'm zoomed in. Do you notice that too? Tony My only wish is to make the MicroIn MicroOut LINEAR. If any one knows how, I'll be a friend for life... Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out... Cool! Thanks. I noticed the Action = MicroOut has an apparent log taper (like a log pot vs a linear pot). It seems to have coarse zoom when I'm zoomed out and much finer change when I'm zoomed in. Do you notice that too? Tony -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:47 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out... Open a dummy PCB document. Select the first arrow pointing down at the top left of the menu bar go into Customize / Shortcut Keys. Select PCBHotKeys. Chose Menu/Edit. Now, you should have a list of all the current PCBHotKeys. Scroll down the list to all of the PCB:Zoom functions. On the right, you should see the PgUp/PgDn Shift+PgUp/Shift+PgDn. On the left where is says only 'PCB:Zoom', right click choose properties. In the middle of the properties, invert the check 'Shift' modifier key for the 4 PgUp PgDn commands. Close/Close you are done. Good luck. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:04 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Zooming in out... How do you reverse those? -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:53 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Zooming in out... I think too much BS is being said about Protel's zoom process. If you have trouble maintaining visual focus of your location after zooming in out, instead of using PageUP PageDown, try Shift-PageUp Shift-PageDown. The 1/10th size step really helps you maintain visual location adjust your mouse movements orientation while you work. In my case, I reversed the Shift-Page* keys with the non-Shift-Page* versions so the normal PageUp PageDown works at 1/10th steps. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 3E795800A5E25344B5A992755EC26454A19E5BF6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
- Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100. Protel lost the Keboard Shortcuts instantly after touching the wheel every time Protel was run. By this I mean that when you ran Protel, the keyboard shortcuts operated perfectly right up to the instant that you rotated the wheel 1 click. This identical behavior caused identical crashes on 3 identical Dell Dimension 4100 machines. I corrected the bug which caused the crashes and the loss of the Keyboard Shortcuts by installing a Logitech wheel mouse and Logitech Mouseware software. Protel 99 SE with SP 6 would not operate without crashing on a brand new unmodified out of the box system from a major computer manufacturer. This is a known problem which has been in the knowledge base ever since Protel 98. This is why I call it a BUG. What about this do you not understand? Of course he did it. Everybody knows he did it including the jury. I would almost be willing to bet that if all of the Logitech Mouse users out there were to reinstall their operating systems fresh and not reinstall their Mouseware, and scrounged another mouse with a wheel for a test (did not use the Logitech mouse) that 50% of them would find out that they have the problem. I'd like to see that. If protel could get a grip on the problem maybe they could fix it. Why do you think I have been screeming and yelling about it! How about a poll?? EVERYONE ON THIS LIST THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM SHOULD EMAIL THE LIST SO 'WE' CAN COUNT THEM. What! If only 10 people have the Bug it's not a Bug? There have been ample complaints directly to Protel to establist to Protel that it is a Bug! This is why it has been in Protel's own Knowledge Base for so long. PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! THATS WHY I'M BITCHING SO MUCH! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL HAS KNOWN THAT THIS IS A BUG EVER SINCE PROTEL 98! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL EITHER WON'T FIX IT, OR CAN'T FIX IT! IF THEY WONT FIX IT, I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THEIR CUSTOMERS AND POTENTIAL NEW CUSTOMERS NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY WON'T FIX IT. I BELIEVE THAT THIS POSITION IS UNACCEPTABLE. IF THEY CAN'T FIX IT, I QUESTION THEIR COMPETANCE AS PROGRAMMERS, AND THAT IS WHY I BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOUD SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM MICROSOFT. I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND THE PROBLEM AND HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE IT AND HOPE THAT IT WILL GO AWAY. I FOR ONE WILL NOT LET IT GO AWAY I did a design on an audio card that worked in all PCI Macintosh computers except for this one guy. We wanted to be pro-active and try and solve the problem just in case it was the 'tip of the iceberg' sort of thing. The customer agreed to ship his computer to us for evaluation and we could NOT figure it out in a reasonable time ( under 1 week) We purchased another similarly configured system and it worked on that one. We probably could have found it with enough time, but it wasn't worth the thousands of dollars the company was burning on it so we returned the computer and issues the guy a full refund and some brownie points. The problem YOU have may be hard for Protel to reproduce, period. Not even comparable - This has been reported directly to Protel by enough different people that it has been in their Knowledge Base for years, not to mention the occurances reported in this forum. While companies such as Microsoft do there best to see that different pieces of hardware from different suppliers all work the same in their Operating Systems, we all know that the simple truth of the matter is that they don't. Part of this is
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100. Protel lost the Keboard Shortcuts instantly after touching the wheel every time Protel was run. By this I mean that when you ran Protel, the keyboard shortcuts operated perfectly right up to the instant that you rotated the wheel 1 click. This identical behavior caused identical crashes on 3 identical Dell Dimension 4100 machines. I corrected the bug which caused the crashes and the loss of the Keyboard Shortcuts by installing a Logitech wheel mouse and Logitech Mouseware software. Protel 99 SE with SP 6 would not operate without crashing on a brand new unmodified out of the box system from a major computer manufacturer. This is a known problem which has been in the knowledge base ever since Protel 98. This is why I call it a BUG. What about this do you not understand? Of course he did it. Everybody knows he did it including the jury. I would almost be willing to bet that if all of the Logitech Mouse users out there were to reinstall their operating systems fresh and not reinstall their Mouseware, and scrounged another mouse with a wheel for a test (did not use the Logitech mouse) that 50% of them would find out that they have the problem. I'd like to see that. If protel could get a grip on the problem maybe they could fix it. Why do you think I have been screeming and yelling about it! How about a poll?? EVERYONE ON THIS LIST THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM SHOULD EMAIL THE LIST SO 'WE' CAN COUNT THEM. What! If only 10 people have the Bug it's not a Bug? There have been ample complaints directly to Protel to establist to Protel that it is a Bug! This is why it has been in Protel's own Knowledge Base for so long. PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! THATS WHY I'M BITCHING SO MUCH! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL HAS KNOWN THAT THIS IS A BUG EVER SINCE PROTEL 98! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL EITHER WON'T FIX IT, OR CAN'T FIX IT! IF THEY WONT FIX IT, I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THEIR CUSTOMERS AND POTENTIAL NEW CUSTOMERS NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY WON'T FIX IT. I BELIEVE THAT THIS POSITION IS UNACCEPTABLE. IF THEY CAN'T FIX IT, I QUESTION THEIR COMPETANCE AS PROGRAMMERS, AND THAT IS WHY I BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOUD SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM MICROSOFT. I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND THE PROBLEM AND HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE IT AND HOPE THAT IT WILL GO AWAY. I FOR ONE WILL NOT LET IT GO AWAY
[PEDA] IntelliMouse Drivers, Was: Speaking of Protel Bugs.
It sounds like there was a problem with the Intellimouse driver - I had similar problems with a similarly configured system of around the same vintage. I however updated the drivers (as well as taking Protel out of the list of application for the scroll wheel), and have had a very stable system since. I didn't see where JaMi updated the original drivers, just changed over to the Logitech mouse and drivers. I can easily see where a buggy (mouse) driver can cause havoc on the best written applications, and my understanding is that there was a period of terrible to damaging intellimouse drivers. Evidenced that there are others including myself that use these drivers without incident, implies that the problems have been mostly been solved. Too bad nobody at Protel told JaMi to install updated drivers. * Tracking #: 60EC075E5A715B4BB8658FFF66B519CA8A852814 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. When purchasing such an expensive product an expensive professional PC, I would consider this auto-pan issue fundamental, since when using Protel, I plan to design some PCBs. If it were not for this group, Protel EDA Forum, my new development PC would might have had the new Matrox Parhelia only to find out that this 600$ card would turn out to be a lemon with Protel. I can't even chance getting a professional work-station grade NVIDIA card. For all I know, slight differences in it's GPU code might lock up the auto-pan as well. Sad to say, I'm going to use a cheap GF4MX. The same card which is in my current system. It's the only way I could be certain that a 2.5GHz system will not run more sluggishly than my current 1.0GHz system. This is the main reason why I will not upgrade to ATS. If Altium/Protel can not hire a single coder who has good experience debugging, or correcting odd windows glitches where 99% of existing other software has no issues with the same hardware, I can not in confidence dish out more money to get the next software which probably has the same, perhaps new draw backs. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100. Protel lost the Keboard Shortcuts instantly after touching the wheel every time Protel was run. By this I mean that when you ran Protel, the keyboard shortcuts operated perfectly right up to the instant that you rotated the wheel 1 click. This identical behavior caused identical crashes on 3
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Just guessing, but maybe this mouse morass is Delphi's fault? It may be true that 99% of other apps don't have this problem, but maybe the 1% that do are written in Delphi? Sometimes app bugs turn out to be built-in bugs of the app development system. Coming to an EDA list near you: Mouse Wars. squeak, Squeak, sque-sque-sque Squeak squeak, ... 8: Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. * Tracking #: 8F48DA852313B347A37E3A829C0610B9B7FEA62B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it exhibited this problem until I updated the mouse driver, and I found the updated driver was older than the Dell computer. Therefore I hold that this is a MICROSOFT INTELLIMOUSE BUG, not a Protel Bug. Rob * Tracking #: 11CEDB17DE57DA4384F655CFF20993261DBD0927 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Just guessing, but maybe this mouse morass is Delphi's fault? It may be true that 99% of other apps don't have this problem, but maybe the 1% that do are written in Delphi? Sometimes app bugs turn out to be built-in bugs of the app development system. Coming to an EDA list near you: Mouse Wars. squeak, Squeak, sque-sque-sque Squeak squeak, ... 8: Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com No. My software team uses delphi. We have no such problems with mouse/window interactions unless something really silly was done. To prevent the Protel auto-pan mouse chunkyness, you just need an understanding of how Windows threads it's input display devices internally. It is entirely possible to re-create the same Protel flaws in Microsoft's Visual C, or Visual basic. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Just guessing, but maybe this mouse morass is Delphi's fault? It may be true that 99% of other apps don't have this problem, but maybe the 1% that do are written in Delphi? Sometimes app bugs turn out to be built-in bugs of the app development system. Coming to an EDA list near you: Mouse Wars. squeak, Squeak, sque-sque-sque Squeak squeak, ... 8: Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. * Tracking #: 8F48DA852313B347A37E3A829C0610B9B7FEA62B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Look, can someone just give me the source for the PCB software, I'll properly fix the stupid mouse issue. For any video card, or mouse driver combination. I'll also fix the dumb scroll borders so the pan will start slowly you approach the edge of the window, instead of when you go off the edge of the window. And, I make a true BALLISTIC pan where your mouse is locked in the middle of the window, as you move the mouse, the board will move around giving you no window margins at all. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it exhibited this problem until I updated the mouse driver, and I found the updated driver was older than the Dell computer. Therefore I hold that this is a MICROSOFT INTELLIMOUSE BUG, not a Protel Bug. Rob * Tracking #: 11CEDB17DE57DA4384F655CFF20993261DBD0927 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Well, I tried this patch, I even had both your patch bars AND the Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar boxes into the active PCB area, and tried various placement combinations. ALL resulted on little to NO difference. Mouse still locks up for several seconds, or until primitives start to be displayed. Maybe my problem is that I am still using P98 (W2K). The solution still seems simple. Protel obviously is able to sense when there are no primitives to be updated on the screen - it takes the same amount of time to update one small primitive as it does to update a screen full, and the problem arises when this primitive update section is not called, and some buffer is almost instantly filled with new scrolled screen frames (that take no time to generate), and we are left helplessly waiting for this buffer to empty. Merely introduce a user tunable delay between screen transfer updates when there are no primitives. -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:33 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Where is there more detail about this fix? I tried moving both my Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar box into my work area. I also tried having my Windows Task Manager always on top in my work area. Each produced little or no change. Am I missing something, or is there detail somewhere else that I can be referred to? I assume we are talking about the problem when panning off the edge of the board and some buffer gets filled up producing a 'locked' condition where the buffer has to be emptied before your mouse movement is seen or responded to. I made several remarks how this could be remedied by Protel during a discussion several years ago. If you want, my patch is here, copy this link into your internet explorer address bar: ftp://ftp.point-lab.com/quartus/Public/ProtelUsers/ Take the ProtelAutopanPatch.zip file. Read the readme file inside the zip look at the example placement picture. If you system is slow, the panning will become more chunky, but the mouse will never get stuck when panning over a blank area of you circuit board. If your system is fast, there should be no change in the panning performance, except that again, the mouse will no longer get stuck at any time. I you use just my horizontal patch un-dock Protel's tolls so that the cover as much vertical PCB area as possible on one side, again, this should almost eliminate the sticking of the mouse pointer. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 1DB48FDF90DBF346870B57753328F89E1C1884B8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
In fact, upon special request, I'll make a mod where if you plug in a secondary track ball, you can use the track ball to pan the board display while using the mouse to continue routing. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Look, can someone just give me the source for the PCB software, I'll properly fix the stupid mouse issue. For any video card, or mouse driver combination. I'll also fix the dumb scroll borders so the pan will start slowly you approach the edge of the window, instead of when you go off the edge of the window. And, I make a true BALLISTIC pan where your mouse is locked in the middle of the window, as you move the mouse, the board will move around giving you no window margins at all. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it exhibited this problem until I updated the mouse driver, and I found the updated driver was older than the Dell computer. Therefore I hold that this is a MICROSOFT INTELLIMOUSE BUG, not a Protel Bug. Rob * Tracking #: 11CEDB17DE57DA4384F655CFF20993261DBD0927 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here
a good one... -Original Message- From: Schmitt Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 5:45 PM To: Protel EDA Forum (E-Mail) Subject: [PEDA] To Forum Admin : Things getting too much OFF Topic here Hey Folks ... One uppon a time there was a Protel Eda Users Forum that was a goof adress for Protel related questions and answers where tip and tricks were discussed. But This Forum gets more and more a CHAT about OS related Stuff (Linux vs M$), sometimes a kind of a war (like the Protel bug discussion, can't read that anymore). well okay sometimes it is okay to ask something what experiences are out there regarding video card but ... is that realy protel related ? i realy miss Mr. Lomax whith his knowledge, but i am not wondering that he is offline when i think of the thread about him ... Please Folks, if some of you have problems like the Protel Bugs thread ... go discuss that on a privat base but this is a protel user forum that is as far as i understand it, intended to exchange tip and tricks or sometimes workaround for PROTEL yes PROTEL and not the OS. of course we can discuss whishes as we all know that protel is reading this list. but sometime these discussion go much too far and end up ... off topic the skill this forum had a while ago is not the same it has know. sometimes i realy think of unsubscribing this list. So lets go back to what this list is intended for. Regards Michael Schmitt * Tracking #: 0D77F0ED5B692E418952E67525AAB6E9D75F0573 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Odd, which video card are you using? Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Well, I tried this patch, I even had both your patch bars AND the Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar boxes into the active PCB area, and tried various placement combinations. ALL resulted on little to NO difference. Mouse still locks up for several seconds, or until primitives start to be displayed. Maybe my problem is that I am still using P98 (W2K). The solution still seems simple. Protel obviously is able to sense when there are no primitives to be updated on the screen - it takes the same amount of time to update one small primitive as it does to update a screen full, and the problem arises when this primitive update section is not called, and some buffer is almost instantly filled with new scrolled screen frames (that take no time to generate), and we are left helplessly waiting for this buffer to empty. Merely introduce a user tunable delay between screen transfer updates when there are no primitives. -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:33 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Where is there more detail about this fix? I tried moving both my Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar box into my work area. I also tried having my Windows Task Manager always on top in my work area. Each produced little or no change. Am I missing something, or is there detail somewhere else that I can be referred to? I assume we are talking about the problem when panning off the edge of the board and some buffer gets filled up producing a 'locked' condition where the buffer has to be emptied before your mouse movement is seen or responded to. I made several remarks how this could be remedied by Protel during a discussion several years ago. If you want, my patch is here, copy this link into your internet explorer address bar: ftp://ftp.point-lab.com/quartus/Public/ProtelUsers/ Take the ProtelAutopanPatch.zip file. Read the readme file inside the zip look at the example placement picture. If you system is slow, the panning will become more chunky, but the mouse will never get stuck when panning over a blank area of you circuit board. If your system is fast, there should be no change in the panning performance, except that again, the mouse will no longer get stuck at any time. I you use just my horizontal patch un-dock Protel's tolls so that the cover as much vertical PCB area as possible on one side, again, this should almost eliminate the sticking of the mouse pointer. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 1DB48FDF90DBF346870B57753328F89E1C1884B8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Matrox = bad ??? g550 ??
I must have missed the thread on the new Matrox Para card. Did look at it briefly, after I upgraded to my current system (dual 2ghz athalon, matrox g550 1g ddr) Works great so far, but I have only briefly perused old designs in Protel right now I am heavy into the embedded Linux and FPGA code that go with this project. Anyway is there a proble I should concern myself with re the g550? To date I have had the understanding that Matrox cards and drivers were the SAFE way to go with PROTEL. And to date my g200 and older Matrox Mellenium have performed well when other cards at work haven't. Mike On 2002.07.24 14:17 Brian Guralnick wrote: Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. When purchasing such an expensive product an expensive professional PC, I would consider this auto-pan issue fundamental, since when using Protel, I plan to design some PCBs. If it were not for this group, Protel EDA Forum, my new development PC would might have had the new Matrox Parhelia only to find out that this 600$ card would turn out to be a lemon with Protel. I can't even chance getting a professional work-station grade NVIDIA card. For all I know, slight differences in it's GPU code might lock up the auto-pan as well. Sad to say, I'm going to use a cheap GF4MX. The same card which is in my current system. It's the only way I could be certain that a 2.5GHz system will not run more sluggishly than my current 1.0GHz system. This is the main reason why I will not upgrade to ATS. If Altium/Protel can not hire a single coder who has good experience debugging, or correcting odd windows glitches where 99% of existing other software has no issues with the same hardware, I can not in confidence dish out more money to get the next software which probably has the same, perhaps new draw backs. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel?
[PEDA] Fw: Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Look, can someone just give me the source for the PCB software, I'll properly fix the stupid mouse issue. For any video card, or mouse driver combination. I'll also fix the dumb scroll borders so the pan will start slowly you approach the edge of the window, instead of when you go off the edge of the window. And, I make a true BALLISTIC pan where your mouse is locked in the middle of the window, as you move the mouse, the board will move around giving you no window margins at all. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it exhibited this problem until I updated the mouse driver, and I found the updated driver was older than the Dell computer. Therefore I hold that this is a MICROSOFT INTELLIMOUSE BUG, not a Protel Bug. Rob * Tracking #: 11CEDB17DE57DA4384F655CFF20993261DBD0927 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
It seems to be an on-motherboard 32MB NVIDIA GeForce2 MX with TV Out (Dell). I am running it at 1600x1200x32x85Hz, and it looks beautiful on this Dell P991 19 inch Trinitron. System: Dell Dimension 4300, P4 1.6GHz, 384MB PC133 SDRAM. Stays up for weeks running Office2K (Outlook, Word, XL), 3xIE5, ORCAD, P98, Acrobat simultaneously, along with other minor apps on W2Kpro. Biggest weakness seems to be Acrobat 5.0. System gets flaky and needs to be restarted from time to time, and seems to revolve around Acrobat 5.0. -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:38 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Odd, which video card are you using? Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Well, I tried this patch, I even had both your patch bars AND the Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar boxes into the active PCB area, and tried various placement combinations. ALL resulted on little to NO difference. Mouse still locks up for several seconds, or until primitives start to be displayed. Maybe my problem is that I am still using P98 (W2K). * Tracking #: DD0F538C9557F34C8DDA94CC0E6081A3C1E5AF6C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Matrox = bad ??? g550 ??
They are safe. It's just that it is still possible to recreate the temporary mouse lockup when panning over a blank area of a PCB, or off the edge. The NVIDIA card seem least vulnerable, though, I will not say that it's impossible. Again, I'm investing a lot in a new Protel / PC setup, I do not want to chance a down-grade from what I am using right now. I have no time to play swapping video card with different mice changing drivers. The whole idea of the new system is to prevent such a waste of time. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Mike Ingle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:47 PM Subject: [PEDA] Matrox = bad ??? g550 ?? I must have missed the thread on the new Matrox Para card. Did look at it briefly, after I upgraded to my current system (dual 2ghz athalon, matrox g550 1g ddr) Works great so far, but I have only briefly perused old designs in Protel right now I am heavy into the embedded Linux and FPGA code that go with this project. Anyway is there a proble I should concern myself with re the g550? To date I have had the understanding that Matrox cards and drivers were the SAFE way to go with PROTEL. And to date my g200 and older Matrox Mellenium have performed well when other cards at work haven't. Mike On 2002.07.24 14:17 Brian Guralnick wrote: Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. When purchasing such an expensive product an expensive professional PC, I would consider this auto-pan issue fundamental, since when using Protel, I plan to design some PCBs. If it were not for this group, Protel EDA Forum, my new development PC would might have had the new Matrox Parhelia only to find out that this 600$ card would turn out to be a lemon with Protel. I can't even chance getting a professional work-station grade NVIDIA card. For all I know, slight differences in it's GPU code might lock up the auto-pan as well. Sad to say, I'm going to use a cheap GF4MX. The same card which is in my current system. It's the only way I could be certain that a 2.5GHz system will not run more sluggishly than my current 1.0GHz system. This is the main reason why I will not upgrade to ATS. If Altium/Protel can not hire a single coder who has good experience debugging, or correcting odd windows glitches where 99% of existing other software has no issues with the same hardware, I can not in confidence dish out more money to get the next software which probably has the same, perhaps new draw backs. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
It goes both ways. PTC (PRO/Engineer) are about to release a PCB design package. Igor -Original Message- From: Brian Sherer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 25 July 2002 1:40 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Kudos I guess I'm in the minority, but I find the Protel user interface quite powerful and, for the most part, intuitively consistent across servers. The labyrinthine command interface of Autocad and PCB packages using a similar interface (like Pads) are tedious and extremely trying. Protel is missing a bet by not offering a stand-alone full-featured Mechanical CAD package based on the 99SE interface. But *Please*, Protel, be sure to maintain full two-way file conversion with all ACAD File Formats ever released! Brian * Tracking #: 732E05315EAC2942A3FEB2F75BD40D71CF4E8FD5 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
My patch was for older ATI Matrox PCI cards where the mouse would get so stuck, that you would be waiting a good 30 seconds or more before it would unglue. This would all change if I were to fix the problem at it's source within the PCB source code. Probably nothing more than adding a wait for the mouse to refresh it's coordinates allow Windows to update it's GUI before doing the next advance / scroll on the PCB window. This is not the first time I've seen software which has been written to run as fast tight as possible, but the software designer forgot to allow Windows to update it's GUI. When there are no items on the display, the pan is nothing more than a HW blit, and it gets repeated so quickly that there are no outlets to allow windows to update it's pointer. So, a pan routine which depends on the mouse input to control itself can get stuck under the right circumstances. When there are a lot of objects to be newly drawn on the window during the pan, the video card's 2D drawing engine, on all cards, are properly designed to allow windows to update mouse keyboard actions of window's GUI while it works. My favorite example of Protel poor multitasking design: Open your task manager go to the performance tab. Open a Protel PCB press P-T. (Place track.) Watch your CPU utilization laugh. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Terry Creer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm afraid I'm the same. Vid card is an Nvidia Vanta and machine is a 1.6G P4, W2K, 386Mb RAM blah blah blah.. TC -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 25 July 2002 8:08 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Odd, which video card are you using? Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Well, I tried this patch, I even had both your patch bars AND the Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar boxes into the active PCB area, and tried various placement combinations. ALL resulted on little to NO difference. Mouse still locks up for several seconds, or until primitives start to be displayed. Maybe my problem is that I am still using P98 (W2K). The solution still seems simple. Protel obviously is able to sense when there are no primitives to be updated on the screen - it takes the same amount of time to update one small primitive as it does to update a screen full, and the problem arises when this primitive update section is not called, and some buffer is almost instantly filled with new scrolled screen frames (that take no time to generate), and we are left helplessly waiting for this buffer to empty. Merely introduce a user tunable delay between screen transfer updates when there are no primitives. -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:33 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Where is there more detail about this fix? I tried moving both my Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar box into my work area. I also tried having my Windows Task Manager always on top in my work area. Each produced little or no change. Am I missing something, or is there detail somewhere else that I can be referred to? I assume we are talking about the problem when panning off the edge of the board and some buffer gets filled up producing a 'locked' condition where the buffer has to be emptied before your mouse movement is seen or responded to. I made several remarks how this could be remedied by Protel during a discussion several years ago. If you want, my patch is here, copy this link into your internet explorer address bar: ftp://ftp.point-lab.com/quartus/Public/ProtelUsers/ Take the ProtelAutopanPatch.zip file. Read the readme file inside the zip look at the example placement picture. If you system is slow, the panning will become more chunky, but the mouse will never get stuck when panning over a blank area of you circuit board. If your system is fast, there should be no change in the panning performance, except that again, the mouse will no longer get stuck at any time. I you use just my horizontal patch un-dock Protel's tolls so that the cover as much
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Maybe the acrobat 5 problem is Protel's problem too. HA HA HA (I'm JUST KIDDING!!) -Original Message- From: Bruce Walter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:09 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. It seems to be an on-motherboard 32MB NVIDIA GeForce2 MX with TV Out (Dell). I am running it at 1600x1200x32x85Hz, and it looks beautiful on this Dell P991 19 inch Trinitron. System: Dell Dimension 4300, P4 1.6GHz, 384MB PC133 SDRAM. Stays up for weeks running Office2K (Outlook, Word, XL), 3xIE5, ORCAD, P98, Acrobat simultaneously, along with other minor apps on W2Kpro. Biggest weakness seems to be Acrobat 5.0. System gets flaky and needs to be restarted from time to time, and seems to revolve around Acrobat 5.0. -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:38 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Odd, which video card are you using? Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. Well, I tried this patch, I even had both your patch bars AND the Placement Tools and PCBtoolbar boxes into the active PCB area, and tried various placement combinations. ALL resulted on little to NO difference. Mouse still locks up for several seconds, or until primitives start to be displayed. Maybe my problem is that I am still using P98 (W2K). * Tracking #: DD0F538C9557F34C8DDA94CC0E6081A3C1E5AF6C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
BTW, I recently saw LinuxCAD's website. It seems they offer an AutoCAD replacement for $99. And they offer versions that run on Windows, for those who don't use Linux yet. I don't know how good their product is, I just saw the website. The mail I get on LinuxCAD is to steer well clear of it. It's not even worth $99, from what I can gather. Although it's an old review, see: http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue30/wuest.html AFAIK, if you agree to the EULA for LinuxCAD, you aren't allowed to comment on it in public. Cheers, Matthew van de Werken Electronics Engineer CSIRO Exploration Mining - Gravity Group 1 Technology Court - Pullenvale - Qld - 4069 - AUSTRALIA ph: +61-7-3327 4685 fax: +61-7-3327 4455 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Tracking #: D72702FFD81C064E8F36D4D29B4FC993EC221468 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
On 09:03 AM 25/07/2002 +1000, Igor Gmitrovic said: It goes both ways. PTC (PRO/Engineer) are about to release a PCB design package. Igor I couldn't find any reference to a PCB pkg on the PTC www site. In past news stories they have said they are not going into that market. They are setting up links with Cadence and mentor for design management interfaces etc but I could see nothing about a PCB package. Have you got more info on this? Ian * Tracking #: CC391BFF99C1F84CBBA1B0FF0CA3CF07C71D132F * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
Only a vague statement from their rep. We are looking into exchanging design info between Protel and Pro/E and he said they will release some kind of PCB package, without any details. I think he said it would be their own SW, there was no mention of third party involved. Igor -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 25 July 2002 10:19 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Kudos On 09:03 AM 25/07/2002 +1000, Igor Gmitrovic said: It goes both ways. PTC (PRO/Engineer) are about to release a PCB design package. Igor I couldn't find any reference to a PCB pkg on the PTC www site. In past news stories they have said they are not going into that market. They are setting up links with Cadence and mentor for design management interfaces etc but I could see nothing about a PCB package. Have you got more info on this? Ian * Tracking #: CC391BFF99C1F84CBBA1B0FF0CA3CF07C71D132F * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
i was going to argue with you until i went and tried it! jeez even place line (not track) with no connectivity or anything much on the board chews up 100% CPU continually !! you don't even have to be drawing or holding the mouse button it doesn't seem to effect typing this though, i left it in place line and switched to this email and it's still chugging away at full 100% usage i then tried a few simple tasks and sluggishness was hardly noticeable including opening a jpg in PSP and editing it so i guess i am not sure what 100% usage really means Dennis Saputelli My favorite example of Protel poor multitasking design: Open your task manager go to the performance tab. Open a Protel PCB press P-T. (Place track.) Watch your CPU utilization laugh. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 0F6CE7DFD220B84CB875D24231133B12907E9A45 * -- ___ www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc. tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
Igor, this sounds like possibly the rep is just talking about a Protel/ProE mechanical interface utility like they have for PADS, CADENCE, MENTOR, etc., etc.. I think that you and the rep are talking to each other but each has their own concept in their mind for two different things. The key word that you used is exchange. That is not the same as import or covert. I would expect a module which allows PCB and mechanical databases to be passed between ProE and Protel. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:34 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Kudos Only a vague statement from their rep. We are looking into exchanging design info between Protel and Pro/E and he said they will release some kind of PCB package, without any details. I think he said it would be their own SW, there was no mention of third party involved. Igor * Tracking #: 8D82820BD7D30D4CBD06C7A092EAA233C881636E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
No, Protel is using 100% of your CPU. It's just set itself down to a minimal priority. So, everything else still seem to run good. Whenever there are free CPU cycles, even if Protel here is doing nothing, it eats up all of your remaining CPU time. This is part of the auto pan mouse sticking problem. I have seen many, many, many,,, Delphi apps, which were probably even programmed worse than Protel in general, never eat up 100% of my CPU's spare cycles no matter how many things they were doing. This is a clear indicator that the writers of Protel do not wish their product to use only what's necessary of your CPU time, or don't care for the consequences in writing such code. EG. 1 of the consequence of such code style the mouse getting stuck during the auto-pan under the right circumstances, where, any other graphical editing 2D cad package with an auto-pan would never lock up the mouse. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs. i was going to argue with you until i went and tried it! jeez even place line (not track) with no connectivity or anything much on the board chews up 100% CPU continually !! you don't even have to be drawing or holding the mouse button it doesn't seem to effect typing this though, i left it in place line and switched to this email and it's still chugging away at full 100% usage i then tried a few simple tasks and sluggishness was hardly noticeable including opening a jpg in PSP and editing it so i guess i am not sure what 100% usage really means Dennis Saputelli My favorite example of Protel poor multitasking design: Open your task manager go to the performance tab. Open a Protel PCB press P-T. (Place track.) Watch your CPU utilization laugh. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 0F6CE7DFD220B84CB875D24231133B12907E9A45 * -- ___ www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc. tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Auto-Pan patch was Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On 05:42 PM 24/07/2002 -0700, Dennis Saputelli said: i was going to argue with you until i went and tried it! jeez even place line (not track) with no connectivity or anything much on the board chews up 100% CPU continually !! you don't even have to be drawing or holding the mouse button it doesn't seem to effect typing this though, i left it in place line and switched to this email and it's still chugging away at full 100% usage i then tried a few simple tasks and sluggishness was hardly noticeable including opening a jpg in PSP and editing it so i guess i am not sure what 100% usage really means Dennis Saputelli Since threads can have different priorities it is perfectly possible for a system to be showing 100% CPU utilisation but no apparent slow down for other applications. If the thread that is running all the time has a lower priority than the user interface thread and normal application threads then the background thread will be preempted by higher priority stuff (like PSP, or typing an email). Those that remember back to P99 will recall the floating license server worked in this way (soaking up all available CPU idle time) but had little effect on system responsiveness. My guess is that a similar thing is happening - that is the place-track command has to interface to a number of robots (as the Protel SDK calls them), maybe these run as low priority threads. Using low priority threads is a common enough programming practice fro idle time processing, and will often cause the CPU usage to run higher than expected without any apparent side-effects. I s'pose it is usually better to think carefully about adding threads willy-nilly to a program as excessive numbers of threads do slow down the task swapping kernel a little - though this is normally only a problem on seriously big scaled-up server type systems. I wouldn't worry too much about an application that causes the CPU usage to go to 100% while doing nothing, unless the programmers have been so rude as to do this with a normal or higher-than-normal priority thread. I just did some checking - the thread that is taking up all the processing time is thread 0 of the P99SE instance. Normally this would be the main UI thread. So that sort of goes against the stuff I was writing above. What may be happening is that when the user has a command under way Protel is in a tight loop (so using 100% CPU) but the thread priority drops a little (this can be seen by monitoring with the Performance mmc plugin in Win2k) so reducing the impact on the system. there are also methids by which the application can release itself from a tight loop to allow the application message queue to be processed, so allowing screen redraws etc. Why would Protel go into a tight loop when a command is active? Maybe to interface to the robots, or to allow the crosshair cursor to be managed correctly (recall that Protel adds its own grid-locked cursor on top of the system cursor) or maybe to implement the auto-pan or ...??? If it doesn't affect system responsiveness it is probably not something to worry about greatly. Ian Wilson My favorite example of Protel poor multitasking design: Open your task manager go to the performance tab. Open a Protel PCB press P-T. (Place track.) Watch your CPU utilization laugh. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: 0F6CE7DFD220B84CB875D24231133B12907E9A45 * -- ___ www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc. tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Kudos
Brad, that was just an aside bit of info, not directly related to our initial topic of design info exchange. I guess he was trying to attract our interest into their new offering, trying to get more sales. It was a promo for new product. Igor -Original Message- From: Brad Velander [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 25 July 2002 11:08 AM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] Kudos Igor, this sounds like possibly the rep is just talking about a Protel/ProE mechanical interface utility like they have for PADS, CADENCE, MENTOR, etc., etc.. I think that you and the rep are talking to each other but each has their own concept in their mind for two different things. The key word that you used is exchange. That is not the same as import or covert. I would expect a module which allows PCB and mechanical databases to be passed between ProE and Protel. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:34 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Kudos Only a vague statement from their rep. We are looking into exchanging design info between Protel and Pro/E and he said they will release some kind of PCB package, without any details. I think he said it would be their own SW, there was no mention of third party involved. Igor * Tracking #: 8D82820BD7D30D4CBD06C7A092EAA233C881636E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Tony - BECAUSE A NEW INSTALLATION OF PROTEL WILL NOT WORK WITH A NEW INTERNATIONALLY ACCEPTED STANDARDIZED COMPUTER SYSTEM, RUNNING AN INTERNATIONAL ACCEPTED STANDARDIZED OPERATING SYSTEM, AS DELIVERED FROM AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED COMPUTER MANUFACTURER! THAT'S WHY! BECAUSE EVERY OTHER APPLICATION UNDER THE SUN RUNS ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY ON THIS INTERNATIONALY STANARDIZED SYSTEM WITH IT'S INTERNATIONALLY STANDARDIZED MOUSE, AND NO OTHER APPLICATION HAS EVER HAD ANY PROBLEM WITH THE MOUSE! THAT'S WHY! WHEN A BRAND NEW CUSTOMER WITH THAT B U GCALLS PROTEL TO ASK WHY HIS SYSTEM CRASHES, PROTEL SAYS WE DON'T KNOW - GO POUND SAND! THATS WHY! AS IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH VALID REASON, IT IS PROTEL ITSELF THAT EXHIBITS THE PROBLEMATIC BEHAVIOUR, AND NOT THE OPERATING SYSTEM, NOR ANY OTHER PROGRAMS, NOT EVEN PROGRAMS WHICH ARE USING THE SAME WHEEL MOUSE RUNNING IN PARALLEL APPLICATIONS AT THE SAME TIME IN PARALLEL PROCESSES. FROM AN APPLICATIONS PROGRAMMING PERSPECTIVE, THIS POINTS THE FINGER AT PROTEL! THAT'S WHY! BECAUSE PROTEL IS NOT AN INTERNATIONALLY STANDARSIZED SOFTWARE APPLICATION, AND AS SUCH IT HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT ITS SOFTWARE WILL WORK ON AN INTERNATIONALLY STANDARDIZED SYSTEM WHICH IS RUNNING INTERNATIONALLY STANDARDIZED SOFTWARE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CLAIMS THAT IT WILL! THAT'S WHY! BECAUSE WHENEVER ANY PROGRAM EXECUTES A SYSTEM CALL, PROCEDURE, OR FUNCTION, TO A SERVICE OR PROGRAM SUCH AS A MOUSE DRIVER, GENERALLY SPEAKING, THAT MOUSE DRIVER WILL ONLY RETURN DATA OF SOME SORT (AS OPPOSED TO MODIFYING OR CHANGING THE CALLING PROGRAM), AND IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CALLING PROGRAM TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THAT RETURNED DATA IS VALID AND WITHIN THE RANGE OF OPERABLE PARAMETERS. PROTEL DOES NOT DO THIS. FOR SOME REASON PROTEL, AND ONLY PROTEL, GOES SOUTH FOR THE WINTER. FROM A PROGRAMMING PERSPECTIVE I COULD PROBABLY GIVE YOU SEVERAL SCENARIOS AS TO WHAT IS HAPPINING AND WHAT IS GOING WRONG FROM A SOFTWARE PERSPECTIVE, AND ALL POINT TO PROTEL. AS TO WHY THE LOGITECH DRIVER AND MOUSE CURE THE PROBLEM - IT COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS THE FACT THAT THE MICROSOFT MOUSE DRIVER OFFERS A SHORTCUT PROCEDURE THAT LOGITECH DOES NOT, AND THAT PROTEL IS ATTEMPTING TO USE THAT SHORTCUT WHEN IT IS AVAILABLE AND HAS NOT IMPLEMENTED THE SHORTCUT PROCEDURE CALL PROPERLY, AND THEREFORE CRASHES, WHERE AS WHEN THE SHORTCUT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN LOGITECH, PROTEL INVOKES THREE LONGER PROCEDURES WHICH WORK CORRECTLY. THAT'S WHY! WHY CAN'T Y O U ACCEPT THAT! THE TRUTH OF THE MATER IS THAT IF WE HAD ACCESS TO THE CODE, ANY HALFWAY DECENT PROGRAMMER, AND I AM SURE THAT THERE ARE PLENTY IN THIS FORUM, COULD ISOLATE, ANALYSE, AND CORRECT THE PROBLEM IN HALF THE TIME WE HAVE SPENT TALKING ABOUT IT! FROM A LOGICAL PERSPECTIVE, THE REAL REASON THAT IT IS A PROTEL BUG AND NOT A MICROSOFT BUG IS THAT PROTEL HAS ACKNOWLEDGED IT IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE BASE FOR YEARS AND MOST LIKELY NOT ATTEMPTED TO FIX IT SINCE THERE APPEARED TO BE A WORKAROUND, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME MICROSOFT HAS PROBABLY REWRITTEN THE INTELLIMOUSE SOFTWARE FROM THE GROUND UP AT LEAST 6 TIMES DURING THAT SAME TIME PERIOD, AND YET IT IS PROTEL, AND ONLY PROTEL THAT GOES SOUTH. JaMi - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of
[PEDA] Refdes on other Layers
-- snipp -- In any case, we now see why changing the layer of a refdes is a VERY BAD idea, at least with the current software! Steve Hendrix Steve, you talked about this behavior during this thread. I searched the Buglist but have not found anything about Problems with refdes on other Layers. Could you please explain more about it? Best regards Waldemar Kulajew Entwicklung Drehgeber Sensorik Development Encoders Sensors Fritz Kuebler GmbH Schubertstrasse 47 78054 Villingen-Schwenningen Germany Tel.: +49-7720-3903-44 Fax: +49-7720-811709 http://www.kuebler.com P.S. Neuheiten von Kuebler: Besuchen Sie uns unter http://www.kuebler.com/German/News/Index_News_d.htm News from Kuebler: Please visit us at: http://www.kuebler.com/English/News/Index_News_gb.htm * Tracking #: F0BC4B747F3EAF4F8B337927BA5C1FB07CA083C0 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IntelliMouse Drivers, Was: Speaking of Protel Bugs.
- Original Message - From: Bruce Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: [PEDA] IntelliMouse Drivers, Was: Speaking of Protel Bugs. It sounds like there was a problem with the Intellimouse driver - I had similar problems with a similarly configured system of around the same vintage. -- I could accept this except for the fact that the problem extended way back to Protel 98, and there have been years worth of versions of Intellimouse drivers since then -- j I however updated the drivers (as well as taking Protel out of the list of application for the scroll wheel), and have had a very stable system since. -- I initally took Protel out of the list of applications (actually put it in an exclude list) which solved the loss of the keyboard shortcuts, but not the related crashes -- j I didn't see where JaMi updated the original drivers, just changed over to the Logitech mouse and drivers. -- I was using a brand new system from Dell (under service contract) with the latest software on it (Win2000), and had by this time found the Knowledge Base article which said don't use Intellimouse, reinstall the ORIGINAL driver well I had the original driver, Intellimouse, and Dell didn't have any other driver, and the Knowledge Base article was several years old by that time -- I can easily see where a buggy (mouse) driver can cause havoc on the best written applications, and my understanding is that there was a period of terrible to damaging intellimouse drivers. -- did that period span several years that Protel didn't address the problem since they had posted a workaround and probably ignored it from that point on - I can accept that there were bad mouse drivers, and that bad mouse drivers caused a lot of crashes from within the driver, but that would have happened across the board with all apps accessing the driver - I can accept bad mouse drivers that return bad data, but again, that would generally cause all apps using the driver to act up, or at a minimum not respond (if they detected that the data was bad). I can not accept a bad driver that lays in wait for Protel, and causes Protel, and only Protel, to corrupt it's keyboard routines. - I mean how does a mouse driver corrupt a keyboard routine of one, and only piece of software, and do it thru several years of mouse driver revisions -- j Evidenced that there are others including myself that use these drivers without incident, implies that the problems have been mostly been solved. -- 1. ) My system crashed 7 or 8 times a day on a daily basis, even once I put Protel in the exclude list (which did fix the loss of KB Shortcuts). Only when I stopped using Intellimouse did I stop having the KB problem AND ALSO stopped having 99% of my crashes. The reports of crashes for unknown reasons are still being reported in this forum on a regular basis, with no know fixes for some of them. I would therefore not necessarily consider that the problems have been mostly been solved. 2. ) From a software perspective, this could be any one of a number of problems that is dependant on a certain combination of hardware and software, as say, such and such a system, with such and such a bios, and such and such a OS, and only when all three are in combination is there a problem - maybe it is something as simple as Protel not allocating enough stack before calling a mouse driver, which causes an overwrite of other data when executing a call to Intellimouse (as opposed to other drivers which may not require as much stack) only when it has to go thru the extra 27 additional calls (and related pushes onto the stack) required by the combination of bios A on machine B with OS C. - Here again I would not call it solved. -- j Too bad nobody at Protel told JaMi to install updated drivers. -- My tongue is bloody from biting it and not revealing the name of the person at Protel who was such an invaluable help -- j JaMi * Tracking #: 60EC075E5A715B4BB8658FFF66B519CA8A852814 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Thank you Brian JaMi - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. When purchasing such an expensive product an expensive professional PC, I would consider this auto-pan issue fundamental, since when using Protel, I plan to design some PCBs. If it were not for this group, Protel EDA Forum, my new development PC would might have had the new Matrox Parhelia only to find out that this 600$ card would turn out to be a lemon with Protel. I can't even chance getting a professional work-station grade NVIDIA card. For all I know, slight differences in it's GPU code might lock up the auto-pan as well. Sad to say, I'm going to use a cheap GF4MX. The same card which is in my current system. It's the only way I could be certain that a 2.5GHz system will not run more sluggishly than my current 1.0GHz system. This is the main reason why I will not upgrade to ATS. If Altium/Protel can not hire a single coder who has good experience debugging, or correcting odd windows glitches where 99% of existing other software has no issues with the same hardware, I can not in confidence dish out more money to get the next software which probably has the same, perhaps new draw backs. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100.
