Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> The average American 20 mile/day is about
> $40 worth of electricity.

Wha…?

Assume 3 miles per kWh. Rounding up, that’s 7 kWh for your daily mileage. Most 
places are within shouting distance of $0.10 / kWh for off-peak EV charging, 
which puts the daily electricity cost under $1.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> Though small, It’s a data point we need to include in
> our quiver and come up with some numbers...

I think focussing on the small fry might be distracting and counterproductive. 
If you really want to do that sort of thing, you’d have to come up with a 
complete well-to-wheels analysis, including lifetime manufacturing / recycling 
impact. But that’s a monumental task.

Just pointing out that EVs mean that utilities will profit from excess 
overnight baseload capacity that’s currently one of their biggest financial 
drains…that right there is enough to shut down the naysayers. Add in 
vehicle-to-grid two-way smart chargers that can mean shutting down peaking 
plants and you’ve sealed the deal. Then mention that the utilities will take 
away all the private vehicle energy sales profits from the petroleum companies? 
No need for hookers and blow at that point.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume

Nowhere near as much as you’re suggesting. As a general rule, Americans use 
about as much energy on personal transportation as for household electricity, 
with the cars generally more than the house. There’s no way the corner gas 
station has as much electricity load as 50 houses.

EVs will increase electricity consumption, and increase it significantly. But 
EVs are mostly charged at night when the power plants are producing more than 
people are using. And EVs are perfectly suited to soaking up excess 
renewables…and even backfeeding to level out demand and reduce the need for 
expensive peaking generation.

EVs will be very good for the grid…but not because we’ll be shutting down gas 
stations.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Holy Crap, Used Leafs Are Incredibly Cheap

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 24, 2015, at 12:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Mark Abramowitz wrote:
> 
>> Stock price is irrelevant to the value of a company's used product. 
>> Frequently also irrelevant to the value of the underlying company.
> 
> Agreed. Stock price was just an easy way to demonstrate that the market
> price for something does not always reflect its value. In particular, it
> does not reflect its value to YOU!

I've had this conversation with a few people over the past couple weeks.

The best investment is the one that you never sell because it's too valuable 
for you to let go of.

Would you rather flip houses, or invest in an home you'll luxuriate in for the 
rest of your life? Do you really want to be making new car payments forever? 
How about friends, spouses: trade them in for a new model at the first sign of 
boredom or work with somebody to build the life of your dreams?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Holy Crap, Used Leafs Are Incredibly Cheap

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 24, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> I'd say the problem is that "Mr. Market" won't buy a product with extremely 
> long life.

You may well be right. At the same time, reliability is a popular selling 
feature, and, if somebody can make a durable battery that's not much more 
expensive than a disposable one, Mr. Market may just succumb to the upsell.

> *Any* battery chemistry can be made to last.

Would that extend to, for example, the sort of off-the-shelf batteries used in 
DIY conversions? As in, could I buy one of the Leaf packs from Hybrid Auto 
Center, or make my own battery from a bucketfull of A123 cells, or the like, 
and make it last? I'm assuming that's the job of the BMS...?

> Isn't it really too soon to tell? Teslas aren't that old yet.

I wouldn't quote me, but the Roadster's been on the road for seven years, long 
enough for initial plots to show if they're ahead of or behind the projected 
curve. It was much less than seven years for people to figure out that the 
first-generation Leafs were dying fast in hot climates.

> My skeptical side thinks that if there were no warranty requirements, 
> automakers would be using cheap, short-life batteries that needed maintenance 
> every 3000 miles, and only lasted a few years, so they could reap big profits 
> on servicing and replacements. Just like the lead-acid batteries they are 
> already using.

If they did that, they'd lose a really big selling point. At the least, they'd 
have to sell the car at a much cheaper price. Bad enough you have to spend 
hundreds of dollars every few years or whatever for tires...but if you also had 
to spend thousands on batteries? People would immediately stop thinking of just 
the electricity as the price to drive and include the battery replacement / 
overhaul / whatever in the price per mile, and then no amount of squinting 
would make them look reasonably priced. Or, worse, everybody would just get a 
short-term lease and then the car company / bank / whatever would be stuck 
spending that money.

I get your pessimism...it seems ever harder to buy so-called durable goods that 
are actually durable. But, especially since ICEVs all have had "10/100" 
drivetrain warranties standard for so long, I don't think people will accept 
anything meaningfully less from a BEV.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Holy Crap, Used Leafs Are Incredibly Cheap

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 24, 2015, at 10:11 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> And of course, you have to expect that the batteries will get worse over 
> time. All batteries do.

True in practice for today's EVs, but _not_ true as an absolute rule. Iron 
Edison-style batteries have functionally limitless lifespans, though they're 
much too heavy for use in an EV. But the fact that it's possible to make an 
immortal battery at all should give us hope that somebody will figure out a way 
to make an immortal battery that's light and small enough to be useful in an EV.

It also seems that Tesla's batteries are significantly outliving their already 
optimistic projections. I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest that it 
won't be long before an EV's batteries are, for all intents and purposes, as 
long-lived as an ICEV's engine or transmission. When companies start offering 
ten-year / 100,000-mile warranties on batteries to maintain >= 80% new 
capacity, that's as much lifetime as they need. And it'll only keep getting 
better

b&
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Re: [EVDL] A math formula can model li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:48 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Maybe non-plug hybrid designers really don't care about battery capacity
> (though that woiuld surprise me).  However, for true EVs, we definitely care
> about usable capacity.

It'll be a function of total capacity, I think. A Tesla P85 could go all the 
way down to 30% of initial capacity and still be every bit as serviceable as 
the typical Leaf on the road today. Might be quite a problem for the person who 
bought the car new, but pretty much everybody driving a Leaf would be quite 
happy to swap it for a Tesla with the same range as the Leaf.

And when it's not uncommon for EVs to have total ranges in the same 400 - 600 
mile ballpark as ICEVs? A 600-mile car could lose a whopping 90% of its range 
capacity and still be perfect for anybody who today drives a Volt and never 
buys a drop of gasoline.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leaf electric vehicle pooled purchases save$

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 18, 2015, at 4:39 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> This discount, co-developed by the counties, Nissan North America and
> Boulder Nissan, brings the entry-level Leaf S down to $23,461 from $31,810
> before the federal ($7,500) and state (PDF) (~$5,000) tax credits for which
> the Leaf also qualifies.

Am I reading this right? If you're in Colorado, you can buy a brand-new Leaf 
for under $11,000?

If so...that is simply insane. Never mind all the electric stuff; the Leaf is a 
great _car,_ and already a bargain at twice that price. That's the sort of 
price that the only excuse for new car buyers to go with something else would 
be an actual inability to make the Leaf work with lifestyle needs -- as in, you 
really do need to haul four tons of gravel every other week, or you actually do 
drive 300 miles / day, and there's no way to press some other car into that 
service while the Leaf does all the daily driving.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV  wrote:

> Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine sound
> from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.

Strange. I haven't noticed it at all.

> Also, excessive road noise
> due to lack of insulation.

It might have higher levels of road noise than other cars...but it has nearly 
no engine noise. Overall, I find it a _very_ quiet car. Indeed, stop at a 
traffic light and all you can hear are all the other cars around you; roll down 
the windows and all you hear is the wind and surrounding traffic.

b&

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-Jerry plugs in “The Spirit of AZ" Leaf EV across AZ

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 7:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> Prescott

I'm not surprised. Prescott (rhymes with, "biscuit") has seen lots of 
transformations over the years...from the first territorial capital to a mining 
town and, today, a thriving arts and culture scene. If any town in Arizona is 
going to understand the value of attracting EVs, it's Prescott.

(Not the only town, mind you...Sedona also springs to mind)

b&
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Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 10:12 AM, allan bullock  wrote:

> Check the reviews like consumer reports. It is down rated due to the motor
> whine. It is loudest at around 55mph, very noticeable.

That may be part of it. It's my parent's car, and I don't remember spending any 
significant amount of time on the freeway in it.

> Road noise is excessive compared to other
> EV's.

That may well be true...but _cabin_ noise compared to other _vehicles_ 
(non-electric) is practically nonexistent.

If the complaint is that it's the loudest EV on the road, but even the loudest 
EV is still one of the quietest cars on the road...well

b&
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Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 10:53 AM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> Most
> manufacturers spec a too low tire pressure so that you get a soft and
> quiet ride, but pump the tires to the pressure that they have a long
> life (you can easily have a difference of 2 times in tire life, between
> recommended and optimal pressure!) and the ride becomes harsher and
> noisier.

Perhaps getting even further off-topic...but are there any preferred strategies 
amongst those here for optimizing tire pressure?

I'm currently planning on using one of those cheap infrared gun-type devices to 
measure the temperature gradient across the tread and adjusting the pressure 
until it's as even as possible -- increase the pressure if the center of the 
tread is cooler than the outside edges, decrease it if the opposite. And, of 
course, measuring the temperature by the side of the road right after a few 
minutes of typical driving.

Any better suggestions...?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> Here I am finally possibly buying an OEM EV.  Long way from my 1956VW with an 
> ADC and 12v marine batteries.

Amazing turn of EVents, indeed -- and seemingly overnight. When I put the PV 
array on my roof a few years ago and intentionally oversized it for an EV, an 
OEM EV wasn't remotely on my radar and I figured whatever DIY conversion I did 
was going to be a bit of a big deal. Didn't give it much thought aside from 
back-of-the-envelope ballpark guesses for how much extra panel capacity I 
thought I'd want.

Today, a Leaf would actually be a not-unreasonable option for me...and it would 
actually probably be cheaper than my plans for turning the '64 1/2 Mustang into 
a PHEV. But I'm probably going to go the PHEV route anyway...because it'll be 
the best of all worlds. Mostly just an EV, but also a road trip car...and with 
what should be a Tesla-beating all-wheel-drive hybrid mode...and, 
oh-by-the-way, also an iconic muscle car with the proverbial roaring V8 when 
such is called for

There's reason to hope that, before long, it'll be as hard to find a new car 
without an electric motor as it is today to find a new car without an automatic 
transmission. If we can make the transition to EVs significantly faster than we 
made the automatic transmission transition, we might actually survive the end 
of petroleum

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:50 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> I have seen some very good prices on 2013 Leafs with chademo & 6.6 chargers.  
> I'm selling the veggie mobile and will need a car and since 12k is affordable 
> to me I'm thinking of replacing the mess and thrift with almost as thrifty 
> but much less messy electric.  Is there a "best" year of leaf so far?

I may well think you're a bit crazy for your mobile solar ideas...but you're 
absolutely spot-on with this.

My parents _still_ can't stop raving about their Leaf. For excellent reason.

So long as the range fits your driving habits, there isn't any other passenger 
vehicle in that price range that can even remotely compare to how good a car 
the Leaf is. It's got all the modern niceties and fit-and-finish and the rest 
one could ask for, plus all the advantages of a BEV that the choir here knows 
so well. And, as you note, used ones are solidly in the affordable econobox 
price range -- even though they'd be the ultimate luxury car of the '90s.

The _best_ year so far for the Leaf has to be 2017, with that big jump in 
battery capacity. But you can't actually buy those yet. And 2016 is certainly 
the second-best, and you _can_ buy those...but for full sticker price, not what 
you're looking for.

Before this year, there's been one significant change in battery management / 
chemistry / whatever to address first-generation problems in hot climates. I 
_think_ 2013 is the first model year after that change went into production, 
but don't quote me, especially if you live in an hot climate or you're 
considering a car coming from such a place.

Regardless, your main concern is going to be matching the battery health of the 
particular car (of whatever model year) with your needs and perception of 
value. If you're in a mild climate with modest range needs, you may well be 
just fine with a well-used first-generation Leaf down a few battery bars, even 
though the same car would be useless for somebody in Phoenix doing a daily 
50-mile commute.

And...unless you know up front that you actually will need the charger, save 
yourself some pennies and don't buy it. Really, truly. My parents only got the 
110v charger with the car. For a couple weeks, Dad was doing all sorts of 
Internet searches for cheap chargers or DIY options or the like, just to have 
something for "just in case"...and then he realized what a waste it would be. 
If a Leaf is the right car for you, 110v charging is also right for you. You'll 
start every morning with a full battery...and what more could you possibly need?

b&

P.S. For bonus points, after your bank account has recovered from spending 
money on the Leaf...toss a few kW of PV panels on your garage / carport...and, 
hey-presto, you've got the solar-powered electric vehicle you've dreaming 
of b&
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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV 
 wrote:

> Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
> compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency
> of a prototype motorcycle?

We had this discussion a little while back. Motorcycles, as it turns out, have 
pretty miserable aerodynamics.

Your best bet for this sort of back-of-the-envelope sort of estimation would be 
to use ICE efficiency as a proxy. If you start with a car that gets about 30 
MPG and do an electric conversion and get a BEV that does 3 miles per kWh, you 
can figure that, if you start with a motorcycle that gets about 30 MPG...after 
electric conversion, it, too, will also do about 3 miles per kWh. (Pulling 
numbers out of my...ear...to illustrate the principle. I'm certain that's not 
the actual resulting relative efficiencies, but it shouldn't be *too* far off.)

There's lots you can do to improve the aerodynamics of a motorcycle, with a 
simple front fairing being the best bang for the buck. The ultimate expression 
of that would be the velomobile, a fully-faired recumbent bicycle that can 
cruise at freeway speeds with about the power consumption of an hairdryer. As 
in, champion cyclists can do it unassisted, at least for a little while...and 
weekend warriors can do it indefinitely with a single-kilowatt electric assist. 
To make math easy, figure 1500 W for 60 MPH, which gives you 40 miles per kWh 
or 0.025 kWh/mile.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 12, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> It would be cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries (in another 
> 5+ years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for replacement packs.

Nissan is almost going to have to...but, even if they don't, somebody else 
will. The Leaf is the electric version of the Model T Ford. You'll still be 
able to buy parts for a Leaf for many decades to come, maybe even a century, 
and people will prize them the same way we do the Tin Lizzy.

Third-party battery replacements won't be that big of a deal. The volumetric 
efficiency of batteries is increasing at a pretty rapid pace, and there's not 
all that much to the Leaf's battery system. It doesn't make sense today for a 
third-party manufacturer to start making Leaf batteries, but, as soon as 
there's a market for them that Nissan doesn't fill, you can bet that market 
will get filled by somebody else.

...and, in the mean time, places like the Hybrid Auto Center sell Leaf packs 
that, at least on paper, look mighty attractive for DIY conversion projects

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Big-Electric Shocks Big-Oil

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:57 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> “We really need to have a big push for charging,” Tony
> Earley, chief executive officer of PG, said in an Oct. 15 appearance at
> San Francisco’s Commonwealth Club. “The charging station ought to be part of
> our grid infrastructure.”

Suckers! The "charging station" is overwhelmingly going to be the regular plug 
in the garage that's already right there.

> PG, SCE, and San Diego Gas & Electric have all petitioned the
> utilities commission for rules changes that would make solar installation
> less attractive. Homes and businesses with rooftop solar panels would pay an
> extra fee to connect to the grid. They’d also pay more to buy power and earn
> less for selling their excess electricity back to the utilities. That would
> make converting to solar power two to three times more expensive for the
> consumer, according to Bernadette Del Chiaro, executive director of the
> California Solar Energy Industries Association.

Idiots, too. They're now pushing for electric vehicles, which is good. But the 
same battery technology that's making electric vehicles practical is also going 
to make the grid obsolete _unless_ the electric utilities can make an 
attractive case for rooftop solar producers to remain on the grid. And, yet, 
they're doing everything in their power to encourage grid defection.

Well, they're useful idiots for the time being. I just hope they remain dumb 
until it's too late for them to do significantly more harm

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:18 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> Is it capable of the 50kW continuous
> estimated for the full size pickup?

For this sort of back-of-the-envelope guesstimating, you can use a 1:1 
conversion for kW and HP. Getting 50 HP out of a 1800 cc aircooled VW motor is 
no problem. Getting even more out of something smaller and lighter using modern 
engineering methods should be trivial -- especially if designed to run only at 
the speed that corresponds with peak power output. The VW engine fully dressed, 
including clutch and intake and exhaust and the like, weighs a couple hundred 
pounds.

Generators are just motors run in reverse. The HPEVS AC-15 makes 60 HP and 
weighs 50 pounds.

If the engineering team of a major auto manufacturer couldn't make a 50 kW 
system suitable for an hybrid with a gross weight less than that of the typical 
American passenger...that team should be fired.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:49 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> I have four of these: http://is.gd/j4BtyS on order for about $1300 each.

Updates on how those work out for you would be appreciated. Oh paper, they're 
worth considering for my PHEV Mustang

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV Drivers Love 'Em, But Don't Buy 'Em, Why Leasing Rules Big

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:29 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> It's essentially down to the "smartphone mentality," the report says: buyers
> aren't interested in keeping their cars long term, because they expect
> something better to supersede them fairly soon.

I really, really hope this trend is short-lived. Trading gas-powered cars that 
stay on the road for a couple decades for electric vehicles that stay on the 
road for a couple years isn't going to do the planet any favors.

I think a good way to put the brakes on this trend...would be a real promise 
for battery upgrades.

b&
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[EVDL] VW's 'dieselgate' puts spotlight on electric cars in Germany

[Ben Goren via EV]

Depressing to consider that, even in Germany with all its solar and wind power 
and now the VW diesel mess...even *that* isn't enough to launch EVs into the 
mainstream.

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-vw-dieselgate-spotlight-electric-cars.html

"The government's goal 'is quite simply not achievable,' said Stefan Bratzel, 
director of the Center of Automotive Research in Bergisch Gladbach.

"There was 'a lot of euphoria, but no vision for a feasible economic model' for 
the electric car in Germany, he complained."

Sorry, but that's just bullshit. The Nissan Leaf makes plain that low-cost 
high-quality EVs are possible. Teslas prove that EVs are the future for 
no-holds-barred luxury sedans. And PIHs like the Volt and Germany's own BMW i3 
demonstrate that an "80/20" solution is practical for all the edge cases people 
like to latch onto.

It's not rocket surgery.

Slap a 50% tax surcharge on all passenger diesel fuel in light of the scandal 
and distribute the money equally to every registered owner of an EV in monthly 
payments. Problem solved.

...of course, that would harm the quarterly profit projections of the people 
who buy the politicians, so it ain't gonna happen...but we need to stop 
pretending that the problems are technological and realize that they are 100% 
political at this point.

The technology is solved. Yes, it's going to get better, and significantly so 
-- but we're already at "good enough," by any reasonable measure.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 22, 2015, at 9:35 AM, John Lussmyer  wrote:

> My truck cruises at around 30KW at 60mph.  A 10KW generator isn't going to 
> extend the range much at all.

Did I slip a decimal?

500 Wh / mile and 50 MPH (for easy numbers) is 2 miles per kWh is 25 kWh for an 
hour...or 25 kW.

I guess I did slip a decimal...sorry!

However, a pickup truck with, say, a 50 kW or even a 100 kW onboard generator 
(to add back the missing decimal) is going to be able to power much more than a 
small construction site and be that much more desirable to people who actually 
_use_ such vehicles. That, of course, is a rather different class of people 
from those who typically _buy_ them...it's a depressingly common irony to see 
impeccably-dressed people step out of immaculate huge trucks and SUVs and hand 
the keys to a valet at an expensive restaurant.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> I do like the
> utility of having a bed to carry stuff around for those times that
> I need it, even though I have also managed to carry a 2-person
> sofa bed in my Classic Prius or 2 50-gal drums.

I can attest that a '68 VW Westfalia Camper can do that sort of thing amazingly 
well.

And I still say that the ultimate in that type of light utility vehicle is the 
VW extended cab pickup built on the classic aircooled bus frame...you get four 
passenger seats, a good-enough size bed in the back...and the sides (not just 
the tailgate) fold down. I've even seen some that had under-bed lidded storage 
space.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:18 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> In order for the individual to
> see the value proposition, the truck would need a range of at least 200-250
> miles, a towing capacity of 4,000 lbs+, and cost under $60,000.

We can do some math on that.

Trucks, especially heavy-duty ones that can tow that much, are big and heavy 
and tend to have poor aerodynamics. I'll be generous and suggest they might be 
able to manage 500 Wh / mile, or two miles per kWh, though it'll almost 
certainly be worse. And that's obviously for just the truck, unloaded.

So, to target a 200 mile range for the unloaded truck, you'd need at least a 
100 kWh (usable) battery. That's more battery than Tesla has ever sold in a 
vehicle.

Now, load the truck down with 4,000 pounds in a decidedly-not-aerodynamic horse 
trailer and push the range to 250 miles? I think it'd still be generous to 
merely double the battery requirement.

And you're now looking at the same class of problem that rocket scientists 
face...a quarter of a megawatt-hour of battery capacity is itself going to be 
insanely heavy, requiring even _more_ battery to make up for all the extra 
battery you're hauling.

And all this is supposed to cost $15K _less_ than a base-model Tesla Model S?

I don't think so!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 22, 2015, at 8:47 AM, John Lussmyer  wrote:

> My Electric F-250 gets around 650Wh/Mile.   My range is about 70 miles.
> No Towing.  (that would REALLY suck power!)
> Even with those restrictions, I find it very useful.  I've had it at a bunch 
> of car shows, and there have been quite a few people that think it would be 
> useful to them, even with those restrictions.
> 
> That article requiring towing and a long range, sounds just like all the 
> other EV articles that require cars to have a 400 miles range and charge in 5 
> minutes.  Standard range anxiety.

I've no doubt your truck is hugely useful. I can get by fine without a truck, 
but, were I to consider one, what you describe you have would likely be pretty 
much perfect for me.

But a demand for a truck that can tow 4,000+ pounds over 200 miles...well, that 
sounds to me like somebody who tows a large boat or a few horses, and that kind 
of towing can, especially in the West, easily involve well over 200 miles of 
such towing in a single day.

The problem here isn't that people are being unreasonable in their demands for 
performance specifications. The problem is with them expecting such performance 
specifications from an electric vehicle with today's chemistry.

As the news is demonstrating so well, diesel turns out to be a really, really 
poor choice for passenger vehicles, and electric versions of those same 
vehicles would be superior almost no matter how you measured them -- and mostly 
hugely superior.

But diesel is also far and away the best choice today for long-haul 
tractor-trailer rigs.

That's no contradiction; you just have to pick the horse for the course.

Between those two extremes there'll be overlap...which is why what the original 
author probably actually wants is a Volt-style plugin hybrid. Give it a 
powerful electric motor, a ~50 kWh battery...and an onboard 5 - 10 kW generator 
and a 30 gallon fuel tank. The generator will be more than able to keep the 
battery from running dry on long distances, plus you could then add a bunch of 
high-amperage 110V and 220V outlets. Now you've got a vehicle that's mostly 
electric powered with all those advantages, plus you can run your entire small 
construction site off of it. _That_ would be a vehicle you couldn't make enough 
of fast enough...though it's still going to come with a price tag similar to a 
Tesla's.

...and I vaguely remember hearing something about somebody offering exactly 
such vehicles for sale already

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Watt-if Nissan aimed a GT-R production EV solely for performance

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 21, 2015, at 3:02 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> “We can’t build an electric GT-R today. But do I want to? I’d love to.”

I _still_ say this would be a major tipping point.

And I don't buy that Nissan, maker of the world's best-selling full-sized 
electric vehicle, can't make an high performance electric vehicle. The cheapest 
GT-R listed on Nissan's Web site is six figures. With that kind of budget, any 
competent hobbyist can do an electric conversion of a classic sports car that 
would mop the floor with any of Nissan's GT-Rs. And do it with Leaf battery 
modules, too!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 20, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV  wrote:

> True.  I actually meant I've only seen 20A outlets in commercial 
> installations.  My house is wired with 20A circuits and 15A outlets.

Hmmm...I may well be confused.

I just checked my panel.

Most of the regular outlets have 15A breakers. The one for the shop that I 
thought was 30A is 20A. The patio has a 30A breaker. Appliances have 20A, 30A, 
or 50A breakers as necessary.

I know I've got unconnected wire going to an empty box ready for at least a 30A 
circuit at the outside corner where I'll be plugging in the EV...I had an 
electrician string that when he was doing some other work and before the attic 
insulation was blown in

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Watt-if Nissan aimed a GT-R production EV solely for performance

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 21, 2015, at 10:03 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

>> "We can't build an electric GT-R today. But do I want to? I'd love to."
> 
> I'll bet Elon Musk LOVES reading statements like that.

I don't think he does. Tesla shareholders focused on quarterly earnings 
statements likely do, but I think Musk himself would much prefer a world in 
which ICEV manufacturers made a rapid transition to EVs than one in which Tesla 
remained the dominant player in a niche market.

Never mind the electrification of Teslas; ignoring the drivetrain, they're 
cranking out innovations left and right that could just as well go in ICEVs but 
which still set Teslas beyond the competition. Even if Teslas had a 
conventional drivetrain they'd be the talk of the town.

If all the major manufacturers went electric overnight, Tesla would still be 
every bit as competitive as they are today...but we would _all_ breathe 
easier

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Watt-if Nissan aimed a GT-R production EV solely for performance

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 21, 2015, at 10:41 AM, Curt Coleman  wrote:

> Interested in a no battery solution?

Huh?

This some over-unity reference?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 21, 2015, at 4:08 PM, Roland  wrote:

> A electrical worker say he has install a 30 amp circuit, may only mean that 
> the wire size is rated for 24 amps at 50 foot circuit run or 16 amps at a 70 
> foot run for a 1 percent voltage drop.

I don't remember the actual gauge wire he ran -- this was a few years ago -- 
but I do remember that there was a calculation based on current and length and 
the rest, and that the cost of the wire was significant.

I'll find out when I finally have an outlet hooked up to the connectionless box 
he put in, but I'm reasonably confident I won't be cursing him when that time 
comes.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Jim Walls  wrote:

> I've never lived in an apartment, but I know people who often have to park 
> blocks from home because that's the closest parking.

It might be a zoning thing here, but every apartment complex in the Phoenix 
area is pretty much guaranteed to have at least one and often more on-site 
parking spots for every dwelling. Typical (but not universal) is one or two 
designated covered spots per dwelling and about as many uncovered spots for 
guests.

The same applies for commercial spaces. Designated employee spots sufficient 
for all employees, plus "enough" (based on some formula) spots for customers.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

All the garages I'm familiar with have 30A circuits. Garages typically get used 
for power equipment like saws that need heavy draws. If there's a single 30A 
circuit in the entire house, it'll be in the garage.

...and that's the case with houses built as far back as the Carter 
administration. Anything much older than that and it's going to have to be 
re-wired anyway to be brought up to code.

b&

On Oct 20, 2015, at 7:28 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> "If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at about 10
> MPH from a standard 110 circuit."
> 
> Charging at 3.3kW would indeed permit about 10 mph charging rate but I think
> you won't find many 120V rms outlets that will supply the required 28A rms
> current or 30A at 110V.  You may find some dedicated 120V outlets that will
> supply 20A rms, or about 2.4 kW, which would permit a charging rate of 7.2
> mph, and many will be limited to 15A or 5.4 mph charging rate.
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Buying-An-Electric-Car-Why-Charging-Rate-DC-Quick-Charging-Matter-tp4678177p4678207.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 19, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on how you 
> measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off street charging. 

Almost all those people are apartment dwellers. And I think it's safe to 
suggest that, before long, it'll be as difficult to find apartment complexes 
that lack 110 outlets for residents in their already-designated spaces as it is 
today to find apartment complexes lacking cable (etc.) TV and Internet access.

The remainder are going to be those in places like San Francisco where 
on-street parking is the only option, and where there aren't enough on-street 
spots to begin with. That represents a very small fraction of the population -- 
but also a rather affluent fraction. I'll bet you a cup of coffee that parking 
meters with chargers become the norm in such places.

Between those two groups, plus the overwhelming majority who already have easy 
access to an overnight plug...that's everybody. Maybe except for the homeless 
living out of their cars -- but, for better or worse, that demographic isn't 
going to be considered in these matters.

There will be fast-charging stations along the freeways, mostly at existing 
truck stops and the like. There will be some convenience stores that have a 
fast-charging station near the gas pumps. There will never be the density of 
fast-charging stations as we currently have for gas pumps -- nowhere close.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car at home
> every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may not be quite so
> important.

They're handwaving away the most important point.

People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge. People 
who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is about. My 
parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap 220 charger 
for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one down if you 
offered them one for free, they have no interest in spending money on one.

I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to charge 
the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to charge the 
battery after a day's typical usage.

If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at about 10 MPH 
from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but that's 80 miles 
after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or, at least, spend 
that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the like. In practice, most 
people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12 hours a day at home, 
giving 100 - 120 miles.

And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road in a 
given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does it happen 
day after day?

Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next 
generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles that 
single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8 hours, start the 
next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that pattern up for over a week 
before you'd start to have legitimate reason for range anxiety. Give the car a 
couple days of 12-hour charges on your (presumed) weekend when you're only 
putting a few dozen miles per day on the car, and you're all caught back up 
again. And I think it's safe to suggest that what I just described is a rather 
extreme situation, even in America. Not unheard of, but very unusual.

Fast charging is nice to have, sure. But it becomes _less_ important with 
bigger batteries, not more -- and we're emphatically headed to bigger 
batteries. But the only time you actually _need_ fast charging -- assuming 
overnight access to a 110 outlet is as ubiquitous as it typically is -- is for 
road trips or other scenarios where you're spending almost as much time in the 
car as you do in bed. And most people are renting cars for road trips these 
days anyway

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen will have a role. (just not in cars)...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 18, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> Agree 100% that dumping excess solar/wind energy into H2 for storage is an
> absolute good idea that will work.

The gaseous form is one of the worst of the options for hydrogen storage.

In a cruel twist of irony...gasoline and diesel and similar short-chain 
hydrocarbons are about as good as it gets.

We're always going to need significant quantities of hydrocarbons -- for fuels, 
for feedstocks for plastics and fertilizers, for lubricants, and more.

And making syngas, a good base from which the rest can be refined or 
synthesized, from nothing but atmospheric CO2 and water and energy input, is 
ancient technology. The only problem is that it's energy-intensive -- which is 
to be expected, since it takes at least as much energy as is released from 
burning hydrocarbons, plus all the various inefficiencies.

The ideal way forward is with grid-tie rooftop solar that primarily directly 
powers stuff right there, including BEVs, and the excess going to the grid 
first for others that can use it that moment, and any remaining surplus (which, 
of course, at time will be significant) going to manufacturing hydrocarbons 
from atmospheric CO2. Local battery storage will likely be the economic 
preference for overnight needs, with existing natural gas (etc.) power plants 
burning the fuels made during the day making up the difference. Most of the 
fuels made during the day, though, would go to plastics and fertilizer and jet 
aircraft fuel and the like.

The way we're _actually_ headed, though, thanks to the idiocies of the electric 
utilities, is rooftop solar without the grid. That gets us oversized local 
systems with surpluses going to waste.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Roland  wrote:

> Install the hydrogen tank in a ICE vehicle using standard propane equipment 
> that I was already running the engine on.

We're obviously veering sharply offtopic, now. Some years back I looked into 
doing pretty much that -- running H2 in, in this case, an aircooled '68 VW 
Westfalia Campmobile in the stock engine with a modified fuel intake system, 
similar to a propane conversion. I seem to remember that there was somebody in 
Tucson that had done it with a pickup truck of some sort. I'd use electricity 
from rooftop solar panels to analyze water and collect the hydrogen.

The numbers just didn't add up. The volumetric density of H2 at sane pressures 
is abysmal and the embrittlement of the engine from constant exposure to H2 was 
going to shorten the lift of the engine enough that it didn't make 
environmental sense. And all that's before getting into the question of putting 
in an hydrogen storage tank plus the collection and compression facilities and 
how to get from storage tank to the vehicle...in the middle of suburbia...

...compare that with even a lead acid EV conversion and the difference is quite 
stark. Comparable driving range, potentially much superior driving performance, 
much better inherent safety, and _far_ easier recharging. And the entire 
system's energy efficiency is so much better with electric rather than all the 
waste of analyzing the hydrogen and compressing it and so on.

That was the final piece of the puzzle. Both methods went from solar panels on 
the house's roof to propelling the car. One method was very direct and simple 
and efficient; the other was an insane and wasteful Rube Goldberg kludge.

The fool cell is only marginally better than running H2 in an internal 
combustion engine (which most any engine built for gasoline will happily do 
with no more than modifications to the intake and operating parameters like 
timing). Even still, lead acid would have a fool cell beat...and, with modern 
battery chemistries? There's no comparison.

b&
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[EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Ben Goren via EV]

Off-topic because EVs aren't what they're switching to.

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-toyota-aims-gasoline-cars.html

Between VW and now Toyota, the big automakers are signaling that we're now 
officially at the end of the ICE era and that the transition to a post-ICE 
world has begun.

Toyota's fool cells, of course, haven't a prayer. Who's going to want a car 
that you have to go somewhere (that doesn't actually exist today) to pay to 
fill up when all the other cars already charge at home for free?

But riffing off the speculation in the other thread about retrofitting VW 
diesels with electric drivetrains...would I be correct in thinking that such a 
retrofit would be a lot easier with a fool cell? You've already got the 
electric motor for propulsion; rip out the H2 tank and the fool cell itself and 
fill that space with batteries and you've got a real EV.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 16, 2015, at 8:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Compared to EVs, they were noisy, stinky, and
> unreliable.  The fuel was hard to get, and dangerous to store.

But there're a lot of big differences today. For one, the whole field of 
vehicles was brand-new -- as was the electric grid. For another, oil was 
literally dirt cheap; be careless with a pickaxe in Texas and you'd set off a 
gusher. The big one was the energy density of batteries...we just now, well 
over a century later, have batteries that are _barely_ up to the task of being 
built into competitive vehicles, even as the density of gasoline still stomps 
all over batteries. Back in the day, with lead acid and iron-nickel the 
bleeding edge of technology, there's just no way that you could even have 
pretended to have made intercity trips or plowed a field or the like with 
batteries -- but, even then, that was trivial with gasoline.

Today, you can buy a new electric vehicle at some of your local dealers. You 
can charge it at home for, with rounding, free. Huge numbers of people do so, 
and the most-talked-about cars these days, from Tesla, are all electric.

Are there even any fool cell vehicles for sale anywhere in the States? I'm sure 
there aren't any H2 stations anywhere near me -- maybe not even within range of 
the vehicle. What's the cost of H2 at the pump in those nonexistent places you 
can't get it? Are there any fool cell vehicles as cheap and as nice as my 
parents's $14K 2013 Leaf? Are there any as sexy as a Tesla? Who's racing fool 
cells -- where's the NEDRA equivalent, an Eva in her fastest-sidecar-on-Earth, 
or a Formula E? Stop people on the street; all will have heard of Tesla and 
will know about EVs...but how many are even aware that Toyota has plans to sell 
cars that run on hydrogen?

It's stil early enough in the game that a concerted effort could submarine EVs 
in favor of fool cells...but that window is closing fast, and is already almost 
closed. Indeed, VW may have just slammed it shut.

b&
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[EVDL] VW responds to diesel scandal, says “the future is electric” | Ars Technica

[Ben Goren via EV]

If this is to be believed...it could be absolutely huge! Anybody here have any 
further information and / or insight?

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/10/vw-responds-to-diesel-scandal-says-the-future-is-electric/

If it turns out the way I'm sure all us here would hope it would, those "rogue 
engineers" would be deserving of a Peace Prize.

(And I guarantee you, the engineers did not take it upon themselves to do this 
sort of thing...at the very least, management made plain that they didn't give 
a damn how the tests were passed and the engineers would be out of work if the 
tests weren't passed. If you ever find yourself in a similar position, quit 
then and there, because you can be sure that management is setting you up to 
take the fall.)

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Three-wheel carbon fiber runabout with solar panels

[Ben Goren via EV]

That was written a decade ago. Today, we've not only got the Volt and i3, 
exactly the sorts of PHEVs he describes, but a decent selection of pure 
electrics (like the Leaf) that are better than his beloved EV1.

...not to mention Teslas

b&

On Oct 15, 2015, at 1:26 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> BYLINE: Robert Cumberford
> FOR: Automobile Magazine
> 
> Burt and his view of electric cars.
> http://burtrutan.com/downloads/RutanOnFutureAutomobiles.pdf
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Made-in-India li-ion batteries for converting all ice to EVs

[Ben Goren via EV]

Something tells me this isn't to be taken at face value. It _reads_ as if 
they're going to retrofit all existing ICE vehicles with batteries and electric 
motors over the next two years. In all of India. I can't imagine India even 
switching all new manufacturing to electric in two years...the most I can see 
would be some specific manufacturer going electric in that time.

If India really _does_ have real plans for converting the entire fleet to 
electric by 2017, that would be earthshaking news.

Any chance anybody closer to that side of the globe has any further details?

b&

On Oct 13, 2015, at 12:48 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> 
> 
> http://www.greentechlead.com/electric-vehicle/india-to-switch-diesel-and-petrol-vehicles-to-electric-mode-in-2-years-28527
> India to switch diesel and petrol vehicles to electric mode in 2 years
> October 9, 2015
> 
> [image
> http://www.greentechlead.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/China_Electric_Vehicle-640x400.jpg
> (Chinese nEV shown)
> ]
> 
> India will switch diesel and petrol vehicles to electric mode in two years,
> said Road Transport and Highways Minister Nitin Gadkari.
> 
> The strategy is to cut oil import bill and mitigate pollution.
> 
> “Our scientists have made cost-effective, made-in-India lithium-ion battery
> (rechargeable) which will be extensively used to convert all means of
> transport to electric mode,” the minister said here at a function organized
> by the Indian Women’s Press Corps (IWPC).
> 
> The conversion of vehicles from conventional fuel to electric energy would
> be completed in two years’ time, he said.
> 
> Noting that Indian spends nearly Rs 8 lakh crore on importing crude oil to
> fulfill domestic demands, he said the electric run vehicles would not only
> help in reducing the oil import bill but also mitigate pollution in order to
> protect environment.
> 
> The lithium-ion battery, developed by the Indian Space Research Organization
> (ISRO) scientists, is more than ten times cheaper, costing just Rs 5 lakh,
> Gadkari claimed.
> 
> He said a pilot project of converting 20 buses into electric mode is
> currently in progress which would be replicated to the rest of the buses,
> which stand at around 1.5 lakh units, plying across the country.
> 
> The minister, who also holds the portfolio of shipping, said he would
> present the electric bus to the prime minister during the coming session of
> parliament.
> 
> Talking about road construction, Gadkari said his ministry has scaled it up
> to 14 kilometers a day which would be further increased to 30 km per day by
> March 2016.
> 
> The minister said he personally wanted to enhance the building capacity to
> 100 km a day over the next two years.
> 
> He also stressed on increasing the use of latest technology to execute
> various development projects in the country.
> [© greentechlead.com]
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.sikh24.com/2015/10/09/keshgarh-sahib-goes-green-with-electric-car-facility/
> Keshgarh Sahib Goes Green With Electric Car Facility
> October 9, 2015
> ...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandpur_Sahib
> Anandpur Sahib is a city in Rupnagar district (Ropar) in the state of
> Punjab, India. Known as "the holy City of Bliss," it is one of the Sikhs'
> most important sacred ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> 
> 
> {brucedp.150m.com}
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Made-in-India-li-ion-batteries-for-converting-all-ice-to-EVs-tp4678056.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
> ___
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 6, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV  wrote:

> If this is a permanent thing you might want to drive a ground rod next to
> the pedestal.

Even if not permanent, there're ways of creating grounds -- including driving a 
rod or looking for something conductive already grounded. But extreme caution 
is called for, of course, lest you energize something that shouldn't be 
energized

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV pioneers

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 4, 2015, at 5:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Limit it to just the time span of the EVDL.

On the contrary; limit it only to that which people willing to volunteer their 
time are interested in contributing.

Sure, encourage people to step up for stuff you yourself are most interested 
in...but if there's somebody out there who's passionate about the history of 
Italian EVs from 1904 - 1927, why _not_ welcome such contributions?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV pioneers

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 3, 2015, at 12:19 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Anyone have thoughts on this idea?

You're absolutely right. _A_ wiki would be good for this sort of thing, but 
_the_ Wikipedia is not the proper wiki.

Ironically enough, a well-established EVDL wiki could conceivably become a 
suitable source for a citation for Wikipedia, but any such consideration should 
be secondary.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 29, 2015, at 2:20 PM, rayfellow via EV  wrote:

> A tribute to Tesla's market strategy is, the cost of batteries is relitively
> high now. If you're going to put them in a car, make it an expensive one ie.
> Tesla Model S or X.

This is another very important point.

We're at the cusp of moving into a new era, but, up until now, any 
electric vehicle is going to be expensive, at least compared with something 
similar in all aspects other than the drivetrain.

Nobody whose budget is constrained is going to pay a premium for anything. 
Nobody whose budget _isn't_ constrained is going to be interested in something 
that cuts corners.

Musk got it absolutely right. Build a great car that just happens to have an 
electric drivetrain. People will buy it because it's a great car, and the 
premium price for the batteries and what-not doesn't even register for those 
who'd buy it. When the electric drivetrain is only somewhat more expensive, 
move it into the midrange market where people will consider stretching the 
budget by 10% - 20% if the upsell is compelling enough (as it certainly is for 
EVs). Only when there's no price difference do you put it into mass-market 
non-niche cheap vehicles...and, if the stars are suitably aligned, it won't be 
long before the electric has an even cheaper sticker price -- at which point it 
sweeps the market and nobody sells anything else.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 28, 2015, at 9:12 PM, rayfellow via EV  wrote:

> The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a
> heavy user is still not all that much.

This is a _very_ significant part of the equation.

My parents recently bought a Leaf. They love it, can't stop talking about it. 
And they literally can't tell the difference in their electric bills since they 
bought it.

In computer programming, it's known as premature optimization. If you have a 
choice of writing code that's quick and easy for the programmer to write and 
later update and maintain, but runs 1000 times slower than some sophisticated 
but difficult-to-understand alternative, which do you write? First, you write 
the quick-and-easy code. And you don't ever look at it again until and unless 
performance is a problem. Even if the easy way is 1000 times slower...if it 
takes ten seconds to execute rather than 0.01 seconds...well, if it's something 
that a single person executes once every four months, why spend hours of 
expensive programmer time saving a low-paid end user half a minute spread out 
over the course of a year? If it's part of the inner event loop of an 
high-performance video game, sure; you squeeze every last CPU cycle out of it. 
But, within rounding, that represents 0% of the computer code written on a 
daily basis.

So it is with electric vehicles. You've got one vehicle that gets ten miles per 
kWh, another that gets "only" three miles per kWh. The one is three times as 
expensive to charge up, so somebody's got to notice, right? Not when the 
difference in cost to drive 30 miles for your commute is 30 miles / (10 - 3 
miles / kWh) * 10¢ / kWh = 43¢ -- not even enough to buy a stamp these days!

Now, consider that a significant fraction of EV owners have rooftop solar, and 
thus their ongoing marginal cost per kWh is literally zero...and why should 
such people even pretend to care about efficiency?

On the list of things that matter in an electric vehicle, efficiency isn't even 
on the list. Indirectly, perhaps, in terms of range and the cost of the battery 
to support the desired range...but make an affordable EV with a 400 mile range 
and efficiency even as bad as an entire kWh / mile, and you won't be able to 
make them fast enough to meet demand.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Grid-tie Solar for EV charging

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 23, 2015, at 5:51 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> And any fool can see that
> the utility is getting my solar at a time when they are PAYING more than
> 12 cents per kWh average and that I am taking it back out when their
> average cost is only 5 cents.

Yes -- the alignment between peak solar production and peak demand isn't 
perfect, but it's not that far off. As a result, there's massive profits to be 
had in arbitrage -- for the utilities to buy surplus solar and sell it to 
neighbors rather than fire up their most expensive peaking plants, and to repay 
solar producers with surplus dirt cheap overnight baseload electricity that 
would otherwise just go to waste.

But massive profits from arbitrage aren't enough, so they're killing the goose 
that lays the golden eggs. And signing their own death warrants by doing so.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 22, 2015, at 1:52 PM, Lee Hart <leeah...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> 
>> Not just current state of the art...it's never going to be practical
>> for the four-door five-passenger freeway sedan that dominates the
>> roadways; there just isn't enough insolation.
> 
> I agree for normal cars. But I have to wonder... what about railroad cars?

Now that's a _very_ interesting thought!

One would have to run the numbers, of course, which shouldn't be too difficult: 
box car surface area, assume panels laid flat on top and average US insolation. 
Locomotive fuel consumption per mile should be easy to find.

If the math works, it should be straightforward to retrofit...the locomotives 
are already electric vehicles with diesel generators providing the electricity. 
Add a battery car, charge the batteries from the panels, run the electric motor 
from the batteries, and keep the diesel generator to top off the batteries if 
they ever run low. I'd think the biggest technical challenge would be routing 
that much power from car to car...every car would have to be able to carry the 
full current of the maximum output from the panels, over a connection that can 
be made and disconnected at random times, quickly and safely -- and with 
automatic shutdown / disconnect in case of derailment or other emergency. I bet 
that wouldn't be easy to design nor cheap to implement.

...but, alas, a significant fraction of rail transport is moving fossil fuels 
around the country, and something tells me that the rail owners would get upset 
at the "optics" of a solar-powered train hauling coal or tar sands crude. If 
solar is what's best for the trains moving the dirty stuff, why bother with the 
dirty stuff in the first place, and why not just go solar everywhere?

Don't hold your breath, in other words.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 22, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> That's 1% to 4%.  Better than most banks.  And FAR better for the future
> since it displaces X amount of coal burning.

If that's your goal, _far_ better to put the panels on your rooftop and 
backfeed into the grid -- assuming, of course, your utility provides a 
reasonable variation on the net metering theme. If not...I'll bet a cup of 
coffee that stationary panels going to a set of batteries used as a dump pack 
for the golf cart would still financially outperform the roof-mounted option. 
You can use cheaper panels that get maximum insolation, and the only concern 
for the dump pack is total lifetime cost per kWh in and out -- weight or volume 
or similar concerns are irrelevant.

A significant fraction of the electric vehicles on the road are already solar 
powered; EV owners are statistically much more likely to have rooftop solar 
generation than others. Except as a gimmick or an engineering challenge or in 
unreal fringe cases (extraterrestrial planetary exploration), carting the 
panels around with you is the most over-the-top wasteful way to get to a 
"green" car. It's pure conspicuous consumerism --which is perfectly fine if you 
can afford and appreciate the luxury...just don't pretend that it's saving the 
planet or that it makes good financial sense.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 22, 2015, at 11:46 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> The autonomous onboard-PV EV is a sweet dream.  Who wouldn't love to drive
> on pure sunshine and never have to fuel up or plug in?  But at the current
> state of the art, that's your heart talking, not your head.

Not just current state of the art...it's never going to be practical for the 
four-door five-passenger freeway sedan that dominates the roadways; there just 
isn't enough insolation. The Nissan Leaf already fits that bill, save with 
rooftop solar and a limited range -- and the Tesla is perhaps the best luxury 
performance sedan ever made. So what sort of sense does it make to restrict 
yourself to a prone position in a sardine can that can't be garaged and can 
only be driven in the open on sunny days...just so you can have the privilege 
of hauling around an expensive and fragile kluge of a portable solar array?

Again, fantastic for the bragging rights, the engineering challenge, all the 
rest. But it'll never be anything other than a gimmick, even long after the 
majority of the cars on the road are solar powered.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Sep 22, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> Only if the Golf Cart and dump-pack are FULLY discharged every day.

Hmmm...I don't think that's quite right, but the basic point you make is a good 
one. If the car has, say, a 300 mile range, and the fixed generation system 
makes an average of 50 miles of range per day and you drive an average of 50 
miles per day, that's going to be pretty much optimal -- even though the 
batteries are never going below 80% of full charge.

> That is why NET metering is the best economics hands down.

Fully agreed -- but, of course, only where it's an option. It's the rate plan 
I'm personally on. However, thanks to intense private lobbying by the Koch 
Brothers...were my neighbors to install similar systems today, though they'd 
technically be on a net metering rate plan, they'd actually wind up spending 
80% of whatever they do today regardless of how much net they generate. The new 
plans have insane instantaneous peak / load factor / etc. surcharges that're 
guaranteed to make rooftop solar a complete waste of money.

Utilities are doing this in a _very_ shortsighted attempt to prevent grid 
defection...but it's too late. Already, my neighbors would have about the same 
return on investment if they cut the grid connection and went to batteries as 
they would have a couple decades ago with grid-tie solar. The cost of a grid 
connection for new construction is so insane that it can't even pretend to 
compete with battery-backed solar; the grid hookup alone can cost more than the 
batteries, maybe even more than the total solar+battery installation cost -- 
and that's before you consider the value of a lifetime of free unmetered energy.

So...the grid is going to die, and it's the utilities themselves that are going 
to kill it. It's a shame...but at least we all get limitless free electricity 
(after initial capital investment) no matter what happens to the grid.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla power.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 23, 2015, at 10:43 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 All these words and none to summarize why I would want to try to get it to
 work.

It's just a short cellphone video clip of an hamster running in a wheel in the 
rear trunk of a parked Tesla. Ha, ha. Next week it'll be a meme GIF of a Leaf 
with a box of rubber bands on the hood.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Bu's e-wheely bad idea weaving-recklessly the wrongway HT delivery

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 23, 2015, at 11:45 AM, John Lussmyer cou...@casadelgato.com wrote:

 On Sun Aug 23 11:25:05 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
 Even the worst full-sized gasoline-powered motorcycle is going to get better 
 fuel economy than the best econobox
 
 That particular part of your statement is incorrect.
 I used to ride a 1000cc motorcycle that got 30mpg.

Seriously? Was it properly tuned? Did you drive it at less than wide-open 
throttle and / or triple-digit speeds? Did you have a thousand-pound sidecar 
hooked up to it?

Or, more simply: what was its official EPA rating?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Bu's e-wheely bad idea weaving-recklessly the wrongway HT delivery

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 23, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 If it merely 100% replaces a pedal-only bike, then clearly it is dirtier.

I can't help but think this is the perfect being the enemy of the good.

Even the worst full-sized gasoline-powered motorcycle is going to get better 
fuel economy than the best econobox, and the average motorcycle pollutes so 
much less than the average passenger vehicle it's not even funny. If 
motorcycles were the norm, we wouldn't be in the pickle we're in today.

Similarly, full-sized electric motorcycles put both gasoline-powered 
motorcycles and full-sized electric vehicles to shame -- and two-stroke 
gas-powered assisted bicycles are even more energy-efficient than full-sized 
electric motorcycles.

And a bicycle with an electric assist? Your stereotypical teenaged girl is 
going to use more electricity drying her hair in the morning than an 
electric-assist bicycle is going to use.

So, is an electric-assist bicycle somehow dirtier than a bicycle without 
electric assist? Does that even deserve to be dignified with a response?

Anything that's not a full-sized gas-powered single-occupant daily commuter car 
is a win for the planet. Full-sized electric vehicles are a fantastic 
replacement...but all the other options should be encouraged as well.

And you will not find iany/i powered vehicle friendlier to the environment 
than an electric-human hybrid.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Bu's e-wheely bad idea weaving-recklessly the wrongway HT delivery

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 23, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 It was quite hard to ride them slowly.  I did get close to 50 mpg when I 
 could hold it to 50-55 mph.

Ah...well, I think my point is still proven -- at least, if you amend it to 
include driving habits. The only full-sized cars that could keep up with your 
bike aren't even going to have the theoretical possibility of 50 MPG under any 
conditions -- let alone if they tried to keep up with your bike.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting.

In addition to this very important point, there's another equally-important 
point to be made.

Coal is nasty, yes. But so is petroleum. And even those EVs that are powered 
primarily by utility-scale coal-fired generators are to be preferred over those 
powered by gasoline. The greater thermodynamic and mechanical efficiencies work 
out on a per-mile basis in favor of EVs, for one...but even if they 
didn't...well, we've got lots more coal than we do petroleum, and we need the 
petroleum for plastics and fertilizer and lubricants and all sorts of other 
things that civilization would collapse without. Just shifting the personal 
transportation fleet from petroleum to coal would be more than reason enough to 
endorse EVs.

That we're shifting from petroleum not to coal but to solar is very good! But 
shifting away from petroleum to anything else is as important in the short term 
as shifting from anything else to solar is in the long term.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 14, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Coal power is history. It is not
 because of more strict regulations (even though the polluter pays would
 have been nice for so many people suffering from the results of decades of
 burning coal) but simply the business case for coal is worse than for
 investing in clean power, so why bother?

So long as the coal miners and power plant operators have the option to 
socialize the costs of pollution from their operations whilst maintaining the 
private capitalization of the profits, coal continues to be the cheapest 
utility-scale power generation option. But, especially with Tesla's recent 
utility-scale battery announcements, utility-scale solar is now, at least on 
paper, cheaper than everything else other than dirty coal.

It will take some time for everything to ramp up, but there's no longer a 
business case for utilities for new construction of anything other than dirty 
coal, solar, and quick-response peaking supplement plants.

And it won't be that much longer before dirty coal loses out to solar, as well, 
from two fronts: first, because of increasing political pressure to stop 
subsidizing the private profits from public pollution from dirty coal; and, 
much more importantly, because solar is continuing to get cheaper whilst coal, 
even dirty coal, is on an irreversible upward price trend.

Even once the solar and dirty coal price graphs cross, we'll still be stuck 
with all the existing facilities. It'll be much, much longer before it'll be 
cheaper to build a new solar plant and decommission an existing coal (or 
nuclear or gas or whatever) one still in good condition. But these facilities 
have limited lifetimes, so we're essentially now approaching the upper limit 
for the total number of non-solar power production facilities humanity will 
ever have.

Utilities are especially paranoid about solar, though, because it's so cheap 
that you can put it on your own rooftop at a price competitive with 
grid-sourced non-solar power production. Your grid connection comes with a lot 
of overhead rooftop solar doesn't, including capital and maintenance for the 
power plants and transmission facilities and all the salaries and what-not; 
rooftop solar just needs the initial capital expense and damned little else, 
meaning you pocket all the difference, even if you have to front the capital 
yourself. Finance the capital the same way you finance the capital for the 
house itself or a car, and the utilities don't have much left to compete on. As 
such, there's a lot of incentive to defect from the grid...and every such 
defection drives up the average per-customer cost fro those left, creating an 
ever-increasing spiral of incentive to defect from the grid. As such, I predict 
that we'll eventually see coal plants shutting down because their operat
 ors have been put out of business by rooftop solar.

Cheers,

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 5, 2015, at 8:18 AM, len moskowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 60 pounds of battery for 1000 miles of range

Before you get too excited...these batteries are not rechargeable. They work by 
combining the aluminum in the battery with atmospheric oxygen -- essentially, 
they burn the aluminum, releasing electrons in the process, and leaving behind 
aluminum oxide. The process isn't reversible -- at least, not by simply 
plugging it into the wall. You'd have to re-refine the aluminum oxide into 
metallic aluminum...which is a notoriously energy-intensive operation, 
something that was practically impossible before the invention of the induction 
furnace.

I don't know what the recycling efficiency is of these batteries, but I'm sure 
it's nowhere near the ~80%+ of a typical rechargeable battery's duty cycle. As 
such, though I'm sure these batteries will serve a vital purpose in the 
not-too-distant future...I'm also pretty sure that purpose won't be as an EV's 
primary traction battery.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Offset Supercharging degradation w/ pack balancing

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 4, 2015, at 6:34 PM, Alan Arrison via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 We already went round and round with this no self discharge, no BMS fellow 
 a few months ago.


Yes, we did.

I think a good analogy might be the Tire Pressure Monitoring System found in 
every new car for ages. You could probably make a similar argument that those 
sorts of things are utterly worthless since any idiot with a $2 pressure gauge 
can check if the tires need air or not, so why pay the hundreds of dollars it 
costs the manufacturers to put it in every car?

If the obvious and substantial benefits of TPMS aren't obvious to somebody, and 
if the fact that the cost-conscious penny-pinching manufacturers don't try to 
make a few hundred dollars extra profit for themselves by leaving it out of 
their designs isn't enough to get that person to re-think opposition to 
TPMS...then there's basically not going to be any way to get through to that 
person.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Amsterdam.nl Tesla taxis crowd free-for-life supercharger EVSE

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jul 3, 2015, at 12:58 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I felt bad for them, Ms Jamil said, noting that the other seven Model S 
 sedans were unattended, a sign that their owners may be picking up items at 
 the nearby shopping center while their cars charged. The two drivers needing 
 to charge were just waiting, waiting, waiting.

Seems Tesla's self-driving technology may be able to help. They could probably 
make it so that an unattended car left at a charger could be disconnected by 
anybody once it's done charging, and the car would then automatically park 
itself nearby, freeing up the charger spot for somebody else to pull in.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: team-sport.co.uk Electric go-karts safer w/ more acceleration

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 27, 2015, at 4:38 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Electric go-karts offer new thrill for youngsters at Acton track

The local kart racing facility is all electric. Lots of fun to drive, and a 
much more pleasant experience than a gasoline-powered kart ride...I don't think 
even the most diehard of petrolheads likes the sound of a kart engine, so the 
low noise level is a definite plus. It's an indoor / outdoor track that they 
can shorten to just the indoor portion during inclement weather, and they don't 
have to worry about ventilation to do so. No mess to clean up. And the charging 
cables hang from overhead the staging area, so every kart starts every race 
with a full charge -- and the attendants only have to plug in the cable, not 
mess with fuel.

In short, all the fun of driving a kart without any of the downsides.

http://www.octaneraceway.com/

Highly recommended for anybody who likes to drive, young, old, whatever.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Zombie222 electric 1968 Mustang 0-60mph:2s destroys Tesla-SP85D

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:34 AM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 David's point, I believe is that the exercise of pitting a highly modified, 
 purpose-built drag racer against a production car is rather childish

Erm...I don't think you understand how these things work. I very, very much 
doubt it's like Weyland sought out the Tesla to race; rather, almost certainly, 
both of them showed up to the same event, ran in a number of races against all 
sorts of vehicles, and the Zombie and the Tesla just happened to get paired up 
for this particular race.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Zombie222 electric 1968 Mustang 0-60mph:2s destroys Tesla-SP85D

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 24, 2015, at 3:14 AM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 ​I continue to be baffled by the drag guys' fascination with comparing a
 highly - and specifically - modified
 race car to a stock-and-standard high performance ​OEM car.

Teslas aren't why Weyland built the Zombies. I think this is the first time 
he's raced a Tesla, and it's _far_ from the first race he's won (and won big). 
Nor was the outcome ever in any doubt by anybody who knows about these things, 
just as there wouldn't be any doubt about the winner of a race between the high 
school all-state champion and somebody on the Olympic team.

 Sure, the
 racer can go to the store just like the OEM, but that is not what it was
 built for.  They completely ignore the value of all the time it took to get
 the race car to the point where it could beat the OEM.

Actually...that's probably most of what matters to Weyland and his crew. 
They're doing this because they love doing it. The end product is nice, but the 
process is at least as important.

 They also ignore the fact that if Tesla knew they were going to go drag
 racing and could prepare for it, they could simply swap controllers and do
 a few other minor tweaks and be in the hunt.

I wouldn't be too sure. The first order of significance in drag racing is 
power-to-weight...and the Mustang is a lightweight car and the Tesla's battery 
pack and wiring probably isn't capable of delivering the wattage necessary to 
match the ratio the Zombie has. After that, it's mostly about traction -- of 
not breaking the tires loose. There almost certainly isn't enough room in the 
Tesla wheel wells for tires that can compete with what I'm sure they've got on 
the Zombie. (And they've almost certainly tubbed the Zombie, doing body work 
to put in bigger fenders and shorter axles so as to fit really big wheels and 
tires...how's that supposed to work for a Tesla?)

Could Tesla engineers design and build a race car from the ground up that would 
beat the Zombie? I sure would hope so...and I'd love for them to do that. I'd 
like to think that, with the right budget, a team like what they've got at 
Tesla should be able to build an electric dragster that would best even 
nitromethane-cooled top fuel dragsters. They're doing the quarter mile (1000 
feet, not 1320) in about 3.7 seconds and cross the finish line at 330 MPH. What 
kind of controller swap and other minor tweaks do you think it'd take Tesla to 
be in the hunt for _that?_

 This whole exercise seems rather
 childish.

If that's the case, then _all_ amateur racing for all time is and has been 
childish...and amateur sports, and all hobbies, and so on. Why would you waste 
time with paint and canvas when a camera is so much faster, easier, and 
accurate?

And isn't that the point, after all? To have some fun? I mean, these guys have 
built the fastest '60s-era Mustang _ever,_ and it's an electric vehicle. In 
what alternate universe is that _not_ effin' awesome? And why would you ever 
want to visit that universe, let alone live there?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 19, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I am curious as to how Paul came to his belief.

His methodology is inadequate to the task -- rather like using a roadside truck 
scale to weigh the first four people to pass by and concluding that all humans 
weigh exactly 200 pounds.

Lee, in comparison, is akin to a long-time general practice physician who's 
kept aggregate patient records of vital statistics for decades, and concludes 
that, among his patients, those over age 50 with weight and waist-to-hip ratios 
more than three standard deviations from average are 80% more likely to need 
treatment for a cardiovascular condition, and far less likely to have an 
history of regular vigorous physical activity. He then compares his own data 
set with Census Bureau and NIH statistics and concludes that, adjusted for 
variations in the demographics of his patients, they're all pretty much on the 
same page in terms of observations.

But in Paul's world, that's all bunk because everybody weighs exactly 200 
pounds, as confirmed by his own measurements, so all that stuff about diet and 
exercise is equal bunk.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Last call for LeSled

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 16, 2015, at 8:06 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Ben Goren via EV wrote:
 _Every_ charger has a battery management system.
 
 Only if you define BMS as Bare Minimum System.

Yes -- exactly my point.

The management might only be sufficient for shoving electrons into one side of 
the battery, and might not be capable of preventing damage to the battery (or 
explosion or whatever). But there's _some_ sort of management; the only 
question is if it's good, or adequate...or a disaster in the making.

b
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Change in automakers' direction ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 16, 2015, at 2:25 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I'm not understanding why you have a problem with Honda developing their line 
 based on consumer demand, or the most profit. Don't you understand that this 
 is how all the automakers compete, not to mention companies in other fields?

Automakers also drive demand.

You know one of the big reasons people are buying ICE rather than EV? EVs are 
perceived as wimpy oversized golf cars. And, save for Tesla, they're all made 
as econoboxes, more or less. Even BMW, one of the icons of powerful luxury 
vehicles...their EV is a dinky little thing that's smaller than the very 
definition of wimpy econoboxes: the classic aircooled VW Bug.

Honestly, there's absolutely no reason why this should be so. Just look at the 
Zombie 222 project to see how a few (not-so-)random schmucks can turn a 
50-year-old hunk of legendary Detroit steel into something faster than anything 
that has _ever_ left a Detroit factory even to this day. And they'll sell you 
one of your own for about the price of a Tesla.

If they can do that, what the hell is the problem with the big manufacturers? 
It should be trivial for them to make electric versions of their own modern 
production muscle cars -- and to make them absolutely smoke the ICE versions. 
And sell them for less, after subsidies, than the top-of-the-line ICE versions, 
and still with plenty of range for commuting.

Imagine if Ford made a fifteen-second SuperBowl commercial for the all-new 2017 
electric Mustang, consisting of nothing more than a drag race between it and an 
ICE Dodge Hellcat. The demand for *that* EV would be instant...and gasoline 
would suddenly be that old-n-busted stuff that gramps used to have to drive to 
get twice a day uphill through the snow to put in his lame-ass last-century 
slowboat. Electric or go home.

Great that Ford has electrified a Focus, that Honda has the Fit, Nissan the 
Leaf, BMW the i3, Chevy the Spark, and so on. Wonderful little cars. And we all 
know that there's a lot more to them than meets the eye.

But there's not a one of them that the archetypal 18-35 demographic would pick 
to be seen in on a date. Those aren't even Mom cars...they're the sort of thing 
bland generic middle-aged resigned-to-be-boring office drones drive to their 
cube farms and back to their apartment complexes in quiet desperation. Probably 
even with a prized red stapler hidden in the glove box.

...and we're surprised that there's no demand, no excitement for EVs...why, 
exactly?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Last call for LeSled

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 16, 2015, at 10:40 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

 You do too.  Yours is just manual.  And that can work as long, as you're 
 thoroughly knowledgable and attentive. 

That's the key point.

_Every_ charger has a battery management system. The only question is the 
degree of intelligence and automation involved.

If you're good about setting an alarm to check on the charger and sticking 
probes various places to keep tabs on things, great; don't pay for a BMS since 
you've already got one: you yourself.

But if you just want to plug the blasted contraption in when you get home and 
forget about it until it's time to drive off tomorrow, or maybe not even drive 
off for a few days and not have to worry about unplugging it until it's time to 
go...or even if you're willing to baby it but, honestly, every now and again 
you forget to turn off the iron or let the hose run longer than it should or 
miss emptying the litterbox some evenings...

...then get a robot to do the job for you. That's what they're for, right?

And, honestly, don't we _all_ have better things to do with our time and 
attention than babysitting batteries?

b
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Change in automakers' direction ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 16, 2015, at 10:40 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

 Many of these guys actively LIKE -- deliberately PREFER -- the noise, stink, 
 and grime that their ICEVs produce.  That may even be more important to them 
 than their actual performance.  They really DO have gasoline in their 
 veins.   

I'm sure there're some examples of that...but all the reports I hear from, for 
example, the crowds that gather 'round the NEDRA member cars...at least 
outwardly, they're easily convinced that this is something to take seriously.

 If they really wanted to fish where the fish are with EVs, they'd have to 
 build something heavy, clumsy, and grossly inefficient, with a 50+ year old 
 chassis and drivetrain layout.  
 
 That's because the #1 selling vehicle in the USA today is Ford's F-series 
 pickup truck.

Maybe, but perhaps not this coming generation of batteries, but definitely the 
generation after that...Ford will be able to build an electric F-series pickup 
that will be hugely superior to the gasoline version. It'll have more torque, 
more towing capacity, offer a built-in inverter to run power tools off of on 
job sites...and all those pickups parked in shopping malls with perfect paint 
jobs, even in the bed? The ones driven by the proverbial soon-to-be soccer moms 
and the guys they're dating? They might not say it out loud, but they'd really, 
really love the silent ride so they can listen to their tunes.

 I don't have any data, but I suspect that for a very long time, EVs will 
 share more buyers with the Prius than with the Mustang.  So for the 
 immediate future, successful EVs that stick to the conventional vehicle 
 model will tend to look and act more like a Prius than like a Mustang.

I suspect that the automakers will drag their heels on the performance EVs, 
despite all the bad press Tesla is giving their ICE versions on that front.

But I'll bet you a cup of coffee or other suitable beverage that the first high 
performance electric vehicle to come out of a major manufacturer is one that 
they simply won't be able to make fast enough and that becomes as iconic for 
future generations as the Mustang and Camaro have for the past few generations. 
The only real question is going to be who pulls that trigger first.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Last call for LeSled

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 15, 2015, at 7:24 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

 I agree.  This is a dead weight holding back sales of used conversions.  For
 many good reasons, lots of EV hobbyists convert old vehicles. The problem is
 that when you go to sell, the vehicle is even older.  And hardly anyone
 wants to BUY an old vehicle.

I think there may be a bit more of a problem even ahead of that.

Why, exactly, are you converting the car in question?

If you're doing it as a financial investment, or even with the thought that 
you'll somehow recoup your expenses at some point down the road by selling 
it...you've got bigger problems than that nobody wants to buy your old 
converted EV.

If you're doing it because you want not just any electric vehicle but _that_ 
vehicle electrified and it's worth however much money you spend on the project 
to electrify it, you're doing it for all the right reasons, and who cares how 
much or even if you can sell it when you grow tired of it? All the better if it 
works out that way, and especially if it keeps the vehicle out of the 
landfill...but you've got to have some pretty poor financial sense to be 
counting on that going into the project.

Today, if all you care about is a vehicle that runs on electricity, don't even 
think about doing a conversion. Just buy something that already fits your needs 
-- most likely something from a major manufacturer, but, sure, if there's a 
conversion that's ready to go and does all you want, great. Not bloody likely, 
but wonderful for you if that should happen.

I'm planning on doing the PHEV thing to my Mustang because it's a car I plan on 
driving for the second fifty years of its life and because I think it'll be 
effin' awesome. I'll be able to do almost all my driving electrically for free 
with electricity from the solar panels on my roof. I'll be able to do 
long-distance road trips in it without worrying about range or charging 
stations or what-not -- and still be able to plug in lots of places along the 
way. And it'll be one of two all-wheel-drive Mustangs in existence and the only 
one with an electric motor...and it'll be insanely fast.

What do I care how much I could sell it for? What difference does it make how 
much money I put into it, so long as it's not more money than I'm able and 
willing to spend to have the car?

It'll be a plugin hybrid electric screaming V8 all wheel drive wicked fast 1964 
1/2 Mustang. It'll do silent grocery runs with free fuel _and_ (hopefully) 
smoke the Hellcats at the strip. What other reason do I need to do the 
conversion? And why on Earth would I even _want_ to sell it afterwards?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Last call for LeSled

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 14, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 With the right pack this vehicle out range and perform any factory EV.  It 
 will also be better when the factory EV is broken as it will be fixable by 
 the owner or any ev converter.  The factory ev will cost big bucks to fix.  
 When people realize this conversations will rise in value.

You would think that...but damned few people think like that any more -- at 
least, not in the States. Maybe in other parts of the world.

Here, value is equated with the number of cup holders and the amount of 
outgassing from the plastics -- the more outgassing, the better.

I paid $5K cash for my '64 1/2 Mustang. I'm putting a lot into it -- and I can 
because it's exactly that rot of super-flexible platform. But I'm going to 
spend significantly less on it than I would on a brand-new base-model 
Mustang...and, for me have a car I'd pick over a top-of-the-line brand-new 
Mustang _any_ day of the week. And then I'll add the plugin hybrid conversion, 
have the range specs (or better) of a Chevy Volt, still for less money than a 
brand-new Volt...and there will be few, if any, production vehicles that will 
be able to beat it at the drag strip.

But, you know what?

Almost none of my friends nor acquaintances would pick that car over a 
brand-new Honda Civic, or even a Civic a few years old with a couple dozen 
thousand miles on it. No interest in owning something like that, and certainly 
not in driving it regularly.

Too strange. Not enough cup holders. And it doesn't smell new, which means it's 
liable to break down any minute now...and who's going to fix it when it does? 
Certainly not the Honda dealer.

Your six-year-old car has a broken whatsit and the dealer wants five grand to 
fix it? Sucks, but you've been meaning to get rid of that old bucket of bolts 
for at least a couple years, now -- and the dealer is offering you a screaming 
deal on a trade-in, with zero down and no payments for six months, too! Why did 
you ever hang on to that jalopy for so long, anyway?

b
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[EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Ben Goren via EV]

So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in an 
electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done different 
ways and likely figured out the best general approach.

Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good 
direction?

This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air conditioning 
in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket air conditioning 
systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE engine.

Thanks,

b
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Re: [EVDL] How Uber's Auton-EVs will reshape the economy

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 9, 2015, at 6:02 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Virtually
 all of these 10 million jobs will be eliminated within 10-15 years, and this
 list is by no means exhaustive.

This is the big wildcard -- and not just as it relates to vehicles, electric or 
otherwise.

Not since the Industrial Revolution has there been such a massive shift in the 
job market...and this round of universal automation is set to make the 
Industrial Revolution look like a minor managerial restructuring.

As I recall, the transportation sector is actually the largest in America 
today, with drivers the majority of its employees. The article elsewhere claims 
that this industry will be effectively eliminated (PricewaterhouseCoopers 
predicts that the number of vehicles on the road will be reduced by 99%, 
estimating that the fleet will fall from 245 million to just 2.4 million 
vehicles.), something I'd take with a large grain of salt...

...but even just the obsolescence of the professional driver, from taxis to 
tractor-trailers, will be monumental.

And, for once, there really isn't any realistic alternative for employment. In 
the Industrial Revolution, farm laborers could readily adapt to factory jobs. 
Factory workers were then told to find jobs in the service industry, which was 
possible but generally a step down the skill and economic ladder. But now that 
we're automating the service industry...what job, exactly, is an 
automated-out-of-existence taxi-driving ex-machinist supposed to get? Even fast 
food isn't an option; the burger joints already have far more people banging 
down the doors to work for them than they can employ.

At some point, and very soon, we as a society are going to have to come to 
grips with the fact that, for the first time in human history, there are many 
more people than there's work that needs to be done -- and, very soon, only 
enough work to keep busy a minority of the population.

Somehow or another, of necessity, we're going to have to make idleness a 
virtue. But how?

b
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Re: [EVDL] How Uber's Auton-EVs will reshape the economy

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 9, 2015, at 6:02 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 How Uber's Autonomous Cars Will Reshape The Economy By 2025
 By SeekingAlpha,  May 31, 2015 By Zack Kanter

Couple more thoughts on this

First, I think there's still a logistical challenge to be faced with replacing 
the commuter car fleet with autonomous Johnny Cab taxies -- namely, that 
there's a reason why rush hour is a clusterfuck of single-occupancy vehicles. 
To a first approximation, we'll still need roughly the same number of 
self-driving public / private cars as we do today, because we'll still have 
roughly the same number of people going to work at roughly the same time. And 
those people will be as interested in sharing a ride with other people in the 
future as they are today. That is, it seems to me like the estimates in the 
article are naïvely assuming a fleet sized for the average demand will suffice, 
whereas the fleet still needs to be sized for peak demand. Electric grid 
operators could offer some insights to these analysts.

But, of more immediate interest...an autonomous fleet _might_ potentially be 
practical with much more limited per-vehicle range than is traditionally 
assumed for personal BEVs. A car with only the Leaf's 100-mile range could be 
in use for a couple hours and take a few fares to their destinations, break for 
half an hour for charging, and get back on the road. With computerized 
dispatch, passengers would never even have to think about range unless their 
one-way trip exceeded the vehicle's practical ability -- possible in a 
sprawling metropolis, but rare...and, in such cases, it'd be only the most 
minor of inconveniences for the system to have a transfer vehicle ready and 
waiting at the halfway point, which is geometrically very likely to be close to 
the center of the biggest downtown area anyway.

Of course, even then, more range is better; a car with a 400-mile range could 
run fares all day long and only have to stop to charge in the dead of 
night...but that's a question of minimizing capital investment for the cab 
company, shaving the number of cars needed for the system and permitting them 
to better centralize charging facilities.

...and, of course, it may well be the case in the interim that an autonomous 
ICE-based taxicab will be a more practical initial platform than a BEV version, 
with the operators starting with a central fueling station whose facilities get 
converted to an electric charging station as they replace the fleet with 
electrics

Cheers,

b
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Re: [EVDL] Easy EV Comparison

[Ben Goren via EV]

I think a lot of the gas folks really do get that. The problem is that, 
especially in the more sprawling metropolises, their lives are built such that 
a car with only a two gallon tank just isn't any use to them.

I have a good friend who lives in Surprise, Arizona, a suburb of Phoenix. She 
works in downtown Phoenix, about 20 miles away. So far so good, right? That's 
well within a Leaf's range. But she also not infrequently has to go to a 
satellite office in Mesa, which is another 20 miles on the other side of 
Phoenix. That works out to an 80 mile round trip, which is starting to get iffy 
for the Leaf. And this is Phoenix, so that means air conditioning in the summer 
isn't optional, especially when outside temperatures are well above 110°F -- 
and that _definitely_ makes it iffy.

But, of course, it doesn't just stop there...her in-laws live in Surprise, 
which is about fifteen miles north of Goodyear and about 30 miles by freeway 
from Phoenix. She not infrequently needs to get her kids to or from school in 
Goodyear to their grandparents in Surprise -- and, of course, do this at the 
end or start of the schoolday and without any time to gas up. Even if she's 
only working in Phoenix that day, that's pushing it for the Leaf -- and a 
recipe for disaster if that happens to coincide with a trip to Mesa.

And, of course, in nearly all situations, leaves her without any Murphy 
factor, without any room for contingencies, or options like going out of the 
way to some interesting place for lunch, or a quick trip to the airport to pick 
somebody up, and so on.

Now, on the one hand, you could suggest that maybe she should live closer to 
work and her in-laws should move closer to her. For all sorts of reasons not 
worth discussing here, neither is an option, I can assure you. You could also 
suggest that maybe she could get an electric vehicle and her husband can keep a 
gasoline vehicle...but he actually works at the same office as she does, and 
their child-taxi and similar duties are shared equally. Juggling who gets the 
electric and who gets the gas would get awkward, especially if something came 
up at the last minute...and does them little good if the one has to go to Mesa 
the same day the other has to go to Surprise; whoever gets stuck with the EV 
gets stuck, literally, by the side of the freeway in hundred-plus weather 
waiting for a tow.

And she's not at all an atypical case for somebody in the Valley of the Sun. 
Pretty much the norm, in fact -- especially amongst those with the disposable 
income that, until just very recently, has been required to even consider an 
electric vehicle.

So she and the millions like her who live here really aren't realistic 
candidates for an electric vehicle, no matter how sweet the cars so often are 
nor the convenience of starting each day with a full tank without having to 
go to the gas station.

Now, when realistic ranges, with the air conditioning running full blast in the 
Phoenix summer and the rest, get solidly in the 200+ mile range, and especially 
the 300+ mile range, and for kid-friendly minivans...well, at that future 
date, you probably won't be able to stop her from buying one.

Until then?

Best to focus on those -- such as my parents -- for whom today's EVs are a 
match made in heaven. They're still the minority, at least where I live...but 
it's a rapidly growing minority with every new generation of vehicles.

Cheers,

b

On Jun 6, 2015, at 6:52 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 One way to describe the new Paradigm that EV’s bring to daily living to the
 typical gas driver is to say something like this:
 
 
 
 “Imagine if every day you came home and parked, you could stick a hose in
 your gas tank and get 2 gallons every night for only $1 a gallon.”
 
 
 
 Well, that’s exactly what you get with an EV when you come home and plug it
 into just your standard 120v outlet.  Overnight, in 12 hours at 10 cents
 per kWh, you pick up 50 miles range for only about $2 of electricity.  And
 the car is FULL the next day.
 
 
 
 Maybe then the gas folks will finally get it.
 
 
 
 Bob Bruninga, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Trickle Charging a Nissan?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 3, 2015, at 5:05 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The guess-o-meter provides neither number.

Ignoring the guess-o-meter for the moment...how accurate is the remaining 
charge meter? Can one use it mentally like one does the gas gauge on an ICE 
vehicle? That is, if you know that you typically get 100 miles on a full tank 
and the meter shows you've got a quarter tank left, you better not plan on 
going much more than twenty miles before charging and even that's pushing your 
luck. Does that sort of thing work?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Success!

[Ben Goren via EV]

Thanks, everybody, for all the advice.

Sunday evening when I had dinner at their place, I set the car to only charge 
to 80%. I also set the timer so that it'll finish charging by 6:00 am, thinking 
that that was when their time-of-use plan kicked up to the higher rate. They 
actually don't have a morning restriction, only an afternoon one, so I'll 
probably change that to 8:00 am, so that any charging will be a closer match 
for the coolest part of the day...it'll be cooler at 8:00 am than 10:00 pm, 
with 6:00 am about as cool as it gets.

One relevant question...they've only got the 110V charger with the car. It's 
plenty for their actual charging needs...but the Nissan manual pretty clearly 
says that Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. Does anybody know if 
that's a you'll damage your pack if you always trickle charge recommendation, 
or if it's a you'll die of frustration watching paint dry in the time it takes 
to charge recommendation? If the latter...not a problem. A very, very long day 
of driving for them would be 50 miles, and that'd easily go back in the battery 
overnight. The former...would be worth getting something Dad can plug into the 
220 outlet in the garage.

The garage has a not unreasonable amount of insulation...not ideal, but as much 
as is practical. And there's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall that they'll 
leave on when it's hot.

A swamp cooler is out for the other reasons mentioned, and for the fact that 
Dad does a lot of woodworking in the garage, and the big humidity swings would 
be a problem.

The Leaf is a bit bigger than the '55 VW Bug that previously lived in the 
garage (and is now going to live in the carport), so Dad was busy making room 
in there and backing in and out yesterday when I stopped by for a minute. They 
haven't charged the car yet and it still has 40 miles on the guess-o-meter.

All in all, definitely a wise investment. Amortized over several years or so, 
it's a net financial gain...and the money they used to pay for the car was 
sitting in an account not doing anything. The month-to-month expenses are going 
to be significantly less, so it'll feel to them like they've got more money to 
play with. And they won't have to get gas, there's no maintenance, and all the 
rest. And it's a really nice car to boot. Probably the best thing they've done 
with their money since they paid off their mortgage early.

Thanks again, everybody, for all the advice!

b

On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a
 104°F when fully charged.
 
 You can simply not charge fully.  Exactly how not fully? I don't know.
 Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the
 electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on.
 
 No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge
 cutoff voltage.  The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms
 of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged.
 
 This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion
 cells in your residence.
 
 Mike
 
 On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 My garage is a steel building with no insulation.  In summer it typically
 is
 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature.  You can feel the IR radiation
 from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the
 touch.  In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside.  My ev
 has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles.   I live in high desert
 where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the
 highest
 temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly
 below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have
 significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes.
 
 The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months
 after longer drives.  Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test drive
 to discharge the pack to about 28% SoC, then floor the accelerator to draw
 3C from the pack and see if the LVC alarm on the minibms triggers. So far
 it
 has not.  Range likely has decreased a bit, but this test indicates it has
 not decreased all that much. My cells are LiFePO4, different than the Leaf,
 but according to Dahn worse with regard to temperature effects, so I don't
 think you need be too concerned.  On the hottest days I sometimes park the
 car in the shade of a tree rather than leave it in the garage.
 
 Winter brings the opposite problem, but I have Farnum heaters under
 aluminum
 sheet that the batteries sit on and 1/2 insulation in the boxes.  Keeps
 them at the set point of 65 F in the winter when it is plugged in in the
 garage and above 50F if left parked outside for 4 - 5 hours.
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context:
 

Re: [EVDL] Trickle Charging a Nissan?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Jun 3, 2015, at 9:26 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Yes, slow charging is just fine, in fact, better for the life of the
 battery than fast charging.  The reason they cannot recommend it is the
 simply the *ergonomics* of customer expectations of the miles-to-go
 gauge.

Thanks for that explanation.

My parents's charging pattern is going to be to make it an habit to plug in the 
car every time they put it in the driveway, or to only plug it in those times 
when the guess-o-meter is reading fewer miles than they think they'll drive the 
next day. Which is exactly the same thing they'd do with the 220V charger.

So, I'll tell Dad to save his money -- which I had already strongly suggested 
he'd want to do.

Thanks!

b
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[EVDL] Success!

[Ben Goren via EV]

So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California vehicle; 
couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from the charge gauge; the 
numeric meter read, 98%.

Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them.

One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some insight 
into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the garage isn't climate 
controlled. It probably won't quite get to today's forecasted high of 108°F 
inside the garage, but it'll definitely get rather toasty.

What are the chances that the car will let you run the air conditioning while 
it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that actually do anything to make the 
batteries happier?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Success!

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 31, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Charles Galpin cgal...@lhsw.com wrote:

 Ben, do you mind sharing how much they paid? Leaf’s are getting pretty cheap 
 here too. There is a 2012 SV with 15k miles for $11k locally which is calling 
 my name.

The charge on my credit card -- including all taxes and registration and 
what-not -- was a few pennies over $13K, right at the top end of what they had 
budgeted.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Success!

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 31, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Jay Summet j...@summet.com wrote:

 but proably not at all
 worth the time/effort.

Ah, well. 'Twas a thought

 My understanding is that the 20%-80% range is the
 safe range. 

Certainly makes things easier...take the time to charge to 80%, program the car 
to start charging so it'll finish by 6:00 am (always with a few degrees of the 
coolest time of day), and forget about it otherwise.

They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the 
purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only other 
measure worth considering.

Thanks, all -- but I certainly would welcome any other creative ideas anybody 
might have!

b
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Re: [EVDL] Success!

[Ben Goren via EV]

Yes, it'll be plugged in...and that's the heart of the question. If the 
batteries are inside the vehicle and the A/C cools the vehicle interior 
including the batteries at the expense of heating the rest of the garage, I'd 
think that'd be a net gain...but I obviously don't know, which is why the 
question.

There's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall of the garage. Insulation is less 
than ideal but much more than when the house was manufactured, and about as 
good as it's going to get. Ventilation can easily be achieved by opening doors.

And they don't need more than a 50-mile range, which is why the i-MiEV was on 
the short list as well. In practice, they basically never put more than 40 
miles on a car in a given day. If some sort of emergency should arise that they 
needed to, they'll still have the 1955 VW Bug. For less urgent extended in-town 
trips -- like a garden tour 40 miles away on the other side of town -- I'll 
have both my 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile and, very soon now, 1964 1/2 Mustang, 
as I'd likely already have been the one playing chauffeur in their now-dying 
1989 Lincoln Town Car. Vacation road trips they don't do often and rent a car 
when they do -- as they just did a couple weeks ago in California.

So, if Mitsubishi warranties the car for 70% by 2018, it should still have 50 
miles by the mid 2020s...by which time, if they're still driving far enough to 
need more range than that, the replacement cost of a battery should only be a 
couple grand at most -- the cost of a couple dozen tanks of gasoline.

b

On May 31, 2015, at 12:59 PM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Possibly, it may use more than the charger supplies but I see you point. 
 Still don't believe the effect will be a cooler battery. 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On May 31, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com wrote:
 
 Paul, I'm pretty sure that while in the garage the EV would be plugged=20
 in, thus drawing line current, not battery.
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: 31-May-15 12:24:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success!
 
 Not to mention the fact that using a Battery heat it. Charging also=20
 causes it to heat so using the battery while charging would beat the=20
 battery even more.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On May 31, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org=
 =20
 wrote:
 
 My first comment: did they have a great EV grin !
 
 On the A/C.  I think running the A/C while in the garage would make=20
 things worse.  Don't forget that the waste heat from the A/C dumps=20
 right back into the garage, so only the interior of the car would be=20
 cooler.  Whether that means a net cooling or heating of the battery I=20
 don't know, but I can't imagine it being helpful overall.
 
 Does the Leaf model they bought have battery thermal control?  If so,=
 =20
 keeping that running would help, right, even though you would dump a=20
 bit more heat into the garage.
 
 Third, even a window-mount A/C unit could have an effect on keeping=20
 the garage cooler.
 
 Other things that could help the garage temperature.  Insulate the=20
 space.  Install fan ventilation - at least that will prevent it from=20
 getting hotter inside than out.  Put a highly reflective coating on=20
 the roof to reflect more sunlight.  Sigh, all of these things cost=20
 money...
 
 Peri
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: 31-May-15 12:03:27 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Success!
 
 So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California=20
 vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from=20
 the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, 98%.
 
 Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them.
 
 One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed=20
 some insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the=
 =20
 garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to=20
 today's forecasted high of 108=C2=B0F inside the garage, but it'll=20
 definitely get rather toasty.
 
 What are the chances that the car will let you run the air=20
 conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that=20
 actually do anything to make the batteries happier?
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] Success!

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 31, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Jay Summet via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The 2013 battery modules do have more air holes in them for passive
 thermal heating than the 2011/2012 modules.

That sparks another interesting thought...would there be any particularly good 
place to position a box fan to maximize the effect of passive cooling?

 My advice is to set the leaf to only charge to a maximum 80 %, and set
 the timer such that it starts charging in the middle of the night
 (3am? 5am?) whenever your outdoor temp is the lowest. (Potentially
 stopping just before you plan to leave in the morning, if they have a
 set schedule, so that it doesn't stay at 80% longer than it needs to.)

Sounds like a sound plan regardless of whatever other steps they take to keep 
the batteries cool.

Is there any benefit to charging to even less than 80%? They know their 
schedule enough in advance to know when they're going to need to make a longer 
trip somewhere -- with the maximum typically being 35 - 40 miles on the 
odometer. I imagine they could be quite happy with keeping it typically at 50% 
charge if that'd be better for the car.

And would the car allow them to automatically program that sort of thing? Or 
should they set a timer to go out and unplug it?

As for time of day...especially if the car can automatically start charging at 
a given time, yes, that's very feasible. They're up early, and could easily 
step in the garage to unplug the car on the way to pick the newspaper up off 
the driveway.

Thanks for the advice, everybody!

b
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Re: [EVDL] GC batteries

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 31, 2015, at 1:17 PM, Jay Summet via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 One place where Lithium may work better over Lead is for instant/auto
 start/stop applications.

I would think that such systems will have a relatively short life in the design 
studios. If you've got an hybrid of any flavor, the electric traction motor is 
going to be far more effective at starting the ICE motor than any electric 
starter motor. So...well, assuming the ICE has solenoid-actuated valves, you 
can cut off fuel and spark and open all the valves to eliminate compression 
braking during any sort of coasting scenario, and even simulate compression 
braking with regen to keep charge in the batteries. When starting from a stop, 
use the electric traction motor and keep the ICE inactive for a few feet or so 
until you've built up a bit of momentum, then start up the fuel and spark and 
valve actuation.

I sort of do something not entirely unrelated already with my '68 VW Camper. My 
driveway has a slope to it running downhill to the street. I back into the 
driveway. When I leave, I don't use the starter motor; the car almost always 
gets more than enough momentum just rolling a couple feet to bump start it, 
just with a gentle engagement of the clutch in second gear. Once the engine 
catches, I release the clutch, put the car in first, and drive away.

I've thought about practical ways of doing something similar when my '64 1/2 
Mustang gets the plugin hybrid treatment...but I don't think it'll be worth it. 
Most of the miles will be all electric, and any scenario with enough 
stop-and-go for that sort of thing to make sense will make even more sense all 
electric. The rare case where I'm doing some sort of stop-and-go and don't have 
enough left in the batteries for all electric...won't be worth engineering for.

Cheers,

b
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Re: [EVDL] GC batteries

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 31, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote:

 I don't say this with pride; I'm actually sad to see it work out this way. 
 It's just that our society creates an overwhelming pressure to keep doing the 
 Same Old Thing, no matter what, no matter how many better ideas come along, 
 until absolutely FORCED to change.

Many excellent points, and I generally wouldn't dispute them.

And I know But it's different this time! has been the common refrain...but I 
really do think it really is different this time, and that difference can be 
summarized in one word, a proper name: Tesla.

Right now, if you're an electric utility in the planning stages of adding 
peaking capacity...any and all bids for natural gas generators are going to 
look bad in comparison with Tesla's lithium batteries that they just announced 
for sale. Lead can't compete with natural gas for that role, but lithium is 
making natural gas look bad.

That's in addition, of course, to all the lithium batteries going into 
vehicles. And electronics, and power tools, and so on.

Right now, the lifetime cost of a lithium battery is less than the lifetime 
cost of a lead battery. The purchase price of lead is cheaper, yes...but the 
maintenance (replacement) costs are a real killer.

And lead _only_ beats lithium on purchase price. Performance, weight, size, 
lifetime...lithium wins on all those points.

So, once that Gigafactory starts churning out batteries by the shipping 
container, the purchase price of lithium is going to positively plummet. And 
when you only pay a marginal premium for lithium over lead, and the lithium 
lasts so much longer by comparison...the last remaining argument for lead 
evaporates, the market for lead dries up, lead gets more expensive...and, 
pretty soon, lead is going to be as unwanted in a battery as it currently is in 
gasoline.

Just look at how much people (including me!) prefer maintenance-free sealed 
lead batteries for ICE cars. If lithium is available the next time the battery 
in my Camper dies, I won't hesitate to go for it.

And it shouldn't be that big of a deal to manufacture. Considering you need 
almost nothing in terms of kWh even as you might need lots of cold cranking 
amps, you should be able to build a particularly small battery with plenty of 
room inside for a transparent-to-the-user BMS. Program the BMS to baby the 
battery to the extreme -- keep it at whatever the ideal SOC is for the current 
temperature (or even 24-hour average and maximum temperatures), and so on. Just 
a black box that goes in place of the existing lead battery, and you basically 
never have to touch it ever again.

b
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[EVDL] Almost....

[Ben Goren via EV]

So, this morning I help my parents finish putting in a bunch of sod in their 
back yard. Afterwards, Dad followed up on a couple Web sites he's been looking 
at and did a bit of math...and it seemed just possible that, with a trade-in 
offer and Federal tax credits and all the rest, they might be able to pay 
$15,000 cash (and hand over the title to the trade-in car) and drive away with 
a 2016 i-MiEV. So, we drove down to the dealership, ready to do so if they were 
willing to do so.

Alas, what with all the taxes and fees and not wanting to give nearly so much 
on the trade-in and what-not...it was going to cost a bit over $21,000 at the 
end of the day for the car. So we walked.

But it's pretty much a given at this point that they'll be buying an EV in the 
very near future

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 30, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You 
 need a court order
 
 Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law 
 enforcement agencies that work with the NSA on parallel construction? How 
 about the marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect 
 it and then turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money?
 
 I don't believe it's illegal for private companies. It is however illegal for 
 the government to do it.

As I wrote: has anybody bothered to tell the NSA that what they're doing is 
illegal?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 30, 2015, at 2:09 PM, Mr23 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Isn't the NSA a bit beyond the EVDL's charter ?

The context is vehicles, especially new factory electric vehicles, with a full 
suite of Big Brother spying equipment built into the car, hardware that we 
already know reports back to the manufacturers.

Much as I think the Teslas are really truly impressive feats of 
engineering...even if I found a winning lottery ticket laying on the sidewalk, 
I'd still think long and hard about buying one. I'd cut a check for a Zombie 
222 in an heartbeat...but a Tesla? Not so sure

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 30, 2015, at 4:48 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You 
 need a court order

Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement 
agencies that work with the NSA on parallel construction? How about the 
marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then 
turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money?
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Re: [EVDL] GC batteries

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 29, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I believe lithium is now about twice the price of lead for similar energy 
 storage capacity.

In general, we are rapidly approaching but not quite yet at the time when 
lithium trumps lead for all use cases. Once Tesla's Gigafactory comes online, 
we may well reach that point.

It won't be all that long before starter batteries in ICE vehicles are 
lithium

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 27, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 And don't forget the battery replacement cost  - perhaps after 10 years or 
 70K miles?

It seems that batteries are lasting at least as long as ICE engines and 
transmissions, and replacement new batteries are guaranteed to be much cheaper 
than replacement new engines or transmissions.

That's two expensive components in an ICE you have to worry about, and only one 
in the EV. EVs are already ahead.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 27, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Solar at this time, where I live with low cost electrons ($0.10 /kWh), is
 not a great investment without subsidies.

That's damned cheap electricity. And, at utility scales, the only thing cheaper 
than solar these days is coal. Given that solar has no maintenance and 
operating costs worth mentioning, it's hardly surprising that solar is a good 
investment for individuals with capital; your capital costs are in roughly the 
same ballpark as that of the utilities, but you don't have to pay all those CEO 
salaries.

CEOs, of course, want you to keep paying their salaries, which is why the 
utilities are trying to jigger their rate schedules such that, no matter how 
many panels you put on your rooftop, you still pay nearly as much per month to 
them. But those days will be very short-lived...utility-scale batteries from 
Tesla are already cheaper than natural gas peaking plants, and their amortized 
cost is competitive over the warranty life of the battery for homeowners, too.

Already today, with both solar and battery prices in freefall for the 
foreseeable future.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

 Here's one: transparent inductive charging.

If we're dreaming, it's a wonderful dream. I don't think it's a very realistic 
dream, but it's certainly wonderful.

As a bonus...going from inductive charging while parking to inductive charging 
on select stretches of highway wouldn't be that big a deal. It's even something 
that could be very beneficial without being close to a perfect solution. Just 
do grab the back of the envelope...if a typical car is consuming 300 Wh/mi at 
60 MPH, that's 18 kW / car. Round up to 20 kW for losses and to make the math 
easier. Even if a roadway could only deliver 5 kW / car, less than many of 
today's in-home chargers, that still extends range by 25%. Your 300-mile-range 
car almost becomes a 400-mile-range car. 

But, honestly?

I think EVs are going to get a _lot_ more popular once 200 miles is the range 
of the base model econobox and 300 miles is not uncommon in top-of-the-line 
models. Rapid charging infrastructure or no. You can put 300 miles of range in 
a 300 Wh/mi car in 8 hours at 220 V / 50 A. Almost nobody drives 300 miles in a 
day, and almost everybody has the car parked at home at least 8 hours a day. 
With even minimal rapid-charging infrastructure, such a car is a direct 
replacement for today's ICE vehicle -- even for vacation road trips. Drive ~250 
miles; four hours into the trip and it's time for a break. Even if it takes 
half an hour to recharge, that's not a problem; most people would be taking 
almost that long just to stretch their legs or maybe grab a bite to eat. And 
when the break is over, you're ready for another four hours of driving before 
you plug into the hotel's charger for the night. If the rapid charging station 
has a restaurant, so much the better. Even today, just look at
  how you automatically expect the middle-of-nowhere gas stations along the 
freeway to have a restaurant of some sort.

We're already expecting the next generation of EVs to be at that 200 mile 
range, and Teslas are already at that 300 mile range.

Which tells me that the only _real_ challenge to EV adoption...is sticker 
price. When the price premium for an EV is comparable to what the price premium 
used to be for an automatic transmission over a standard, that's it.

We can even see a direct parallel in very recent history: hybrid vehicles. They 
used to be much more expensive than their battery-less counterparts; today, 
they're only a bit more expensive and it seems like every other car on the road 
these days is an hybrid -- even a number of SUVs.

Until the past couple months or so, I was decidedly pessimistic about our 
chances for surviving the end of cheap oil. I still don't think it'll be a walk 
in the park...but solar is already cheaper for utilities than anything else but 
coal, and Tesla's utility batteries are already cheaper than any other form of 
peaking production. That means that all kinds of money is now going to shift 
away from fossil fuels and into solar and batteries, simply because the 
utilities that don't do so are going to lose out to those that do. And, more 
importantly, because the CEOs will want to pocket the savings, themselves. That 
will, in turn, _very_ rapidly drive down prices for solar and batteries for the 
rest of us...quickly to the point that the utilities themselves won't be able 
to compete with local generation and ICE vehicles won't be able to compete with 
EVs.

Imagine that, for a moment, so long as we're dreaming -- you've got an EV with 
a ~120 kWh pack and a ~400 mile freeway range. Next to your water heater (or 
wherever) is a ~400 kWh battery that both serves as a dump pack for your EV 
for rapid charging as well as all your other electricity needs. If you don't 
drive, you can go a week or two without sunlight depending on how much of an 
energy hog you are. And your roof is covered with enough solar panels that, 
even in the dead of winter, they'll collect enough that your batteries won't 
actually run out.

I think most any American would consider something like that a very desirable 
luxury life...and I do believe we might actually, after all, be on track for me 
to live long enough to see something like it come to pass.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.

Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is 
 recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick 
 that goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go 
 thru the wheel.

To save on (unsprung!) weight and expense, a fabric covering might be 
preferable. At least at one point, they were commonly available for bicycles, 
though I haven't seen as many recently. Superficially resembles a solid carbon 
disc wheel.

The basic idea would be a wire hoop the same size as the wheel and a round 
sheet of fabric stretched around it like a drum. Clips on the extremes of the 
spokes can hold the hoop in place. Depending on how the wheel is mounted to the 
axle and the like, you might also need an hole with a grommet in the center.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

We must be using different terminology.

As best I understood it, the hub is the center of the wheel where the axle 
connects. The hubcap covers the hub. And I thought that hub motors are in the 
same basic location as the hubcap, with either the stator or rotor in the wheel 
and the other half in the axle.

Unsprung weight is the wheels and that which is fixed to them. Sprung weight is 
the frame and that which is fixed to it. The springs connect the two. 
Components, such as axles, that are fixed to both frame and wheels contribute 
some of their weight to each.

At absolute best, an axle motor would be partially sprung and partially 
unsprung. But once you put the motor in the wheel, in the hub, it's entirely 
unsprung.

b

On May 18, 2015, at 8:35 AM, Mark Grasser via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung
 weight.
 
 .
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
 Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM
 To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
 EV4the masses
 
 Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors?
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
 EV4the masses
 
 On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are 
 sprung.
 
 Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Michael Kadie via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in general.

That makes sense, and it's good news for my PHEV conversions...all-electric 
mode is going to be mostly around town and mostly at or below 45 MPH. Which 
means I should easily hit, for the Mustang at least, my goal of range 
performance roughly comparable to a Chevy Volt

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 12:18 PM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 When I built mine I did a spread sheet.

Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share?

Because of the nature of the project, I'm not overly worried about battery 
range, but it's always better to refine expectations when possible.

Thanks!

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote:

 Ben Goren via EV wrote:
 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.
 Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?
 
 One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, like 
 the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or has a 
 universal joint between it and the axle.
 
 Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor shaft 
 and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the wheel is free 
 to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the reduction unit).

Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example, heard 
of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle.

 Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be 
 attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the 
 suspension.

Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design. You've either 
got no room for travel between stator and rotor and the two catastrophically 
collide the first time you run over a pebble, or else you've got an huge gap 
between the two with some sort of magnetic levitation keeping the wheels 
attached to the car and also somehow spinning.

 Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken.

Sounds like the answer

b

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Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k.

I planted the bug after I drove them back from the airport last night. We'll 
see what, if anything it develops into...but I'm pretty sure it's now on their 
short list...and I don't think they had anything at all on their short list 
until now.

Thanks again!

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV 4the masses

[Ben Goren via EV]

Huh? Why the pessimism?

EVWest sells complete VW conversion kits, including a 22 kWh battery pack, for 
$19K. That leaves 4K for the sled -- more than enough.

b

On May 17, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Alan Arrison via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Good luck with that...
 
 On 5/17/2015 3:00 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
 
 http://www.hybridcars.com/open-source-project-hopes-to-offer-23000-ev-with-186-miles-range/
 Open Source Project Hopes To Offer $23,000 EV With 186 Miles Range
 by Sarah Shelton  May 14, 2015
 
 
 
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