On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> We are atoms, molecules, cells, tissues, and organisms. Whatever we do is
> what the laws of physics *actually are*. Your assumptions about the laws of
> physics are 20th century legacy ideas based on exterior manipulations of
> exterior i
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:33:23 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Craig Weinberg
> >
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
> On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would
>> > all
>> > be good indic
On 10/25/2012 4:38 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all
be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on the computer itself
rather than the programming, that wo
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would
> all
> > be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on the computer
> it
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:08:43 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
>
>
> In order for a computer or comp to simulate an experience
> it must be able to generate qualia. That is the plural of
>
> qua锟�e/'kw锟�e/
> Noun:
> A quality or property as perceived or experienced by a person.
>
> So c
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 5:16:47 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>
> Citeren Craig Weinberg >:
>
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
> >>
> >> You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states
> >> of algorithms. Al
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all
> be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on the computer itself
> rather than the programming, that would be a good sign.
A computer cannot defy its
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:25:48 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Craig Weinberg
> >
> wrote:
>
> > If you believed that our brains were already nothing but computers, then
> you
> > would say that it would know which option to take the same way that
> Go
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> If you believed that our brains were already nothing but computers, then you
> would say that it would know which option to take the same way that Google
> knows which options to show you. I argue that can only get you so far, and
> that a
On 10/25/2012 3:01 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Citeren "Stephen P. King" :
On 10/25/2012 5:16 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Citeren Craig Weinberg :
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational state
Citeren "Stephen P. King" :
On 10/25/2012 5:16 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Citeren Craig Weinberg :
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states
of algorithms. All you need to do to (in princ
On 10/25/2012 5:16 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Citeren Craig Weinberg :
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states
of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle) decide if a system
is "e
Citeren Craig Weinberg :
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states
of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle) decide if a system
is "experiencing the color red" is to see if the righ
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>
> You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states
> of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle) decide if a system
> is "experiencing the color red" is to see if the right algorithm is
> be
On 10/25/2012 2:21 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Actually all string theories are based on an n dimensional manifold
where n may be anywhere from 9 to 26 or more dimensions
plus the assumption that all the dimensions but 3 compactify.
I even think of time as a compactified dimension.
Not sure if tha
You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states
of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle) decide if a system
is "experiencing the color red" is to see if the right algorithm is
being executed.
Saibal
Citeren Craig Weinberg :
On Thursday, October 25, 2012
On 10/25/2012 1:49 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
I am still waiting for the explanation of how you know that to be true-
that the compact manifolds are orthogonal to space dimensions.
Richard
Dear Richard,
That is what the 'x' in the string of symbols M_4 x X means. The
relation is orthogonal
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>> A identical twin is a clone, you're talking about a exact duplicate and
>> I would shoot him. I was given a gun and I was forced to make a very
>> emotional decision and my duplicate was not, so I have intense memories
>> that he does not so
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:57:34 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
> Good points. The contrast is usually qualia-v-quanta. I think color can
> be communicated
> and we have an "RGB" language for doing so that makes it more quanta than
> qualia.
That doesn't work. RGB coordinates do not help
On 10/25/2012 11:47 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:23 PM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/25/2012 10:49 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. King
wrote:
On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Stepha
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:33:58 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>> > Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress.
>>
>
> Wealth and human progress are strongly linked and only in very rich
> western cu
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 11:15 AM, John Clark wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> > You will be placed into a room with an exact clone of yourself and you
>> will be given a gun. If you shoot your clone you can leave that room and
>> everything will be fine. Or, if
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:23 PM, meekerdb wrote:
> On 10/25/2012 10:49 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. King
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>>
>>> Stephan,
>>>
>>> Since ye
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> > Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress.
>
Wealth and human progress are strongly linked and only in very rich western
cultures can anybody afford to say that material things are not important,
and even then it's c
On 10/25/2012 10:49 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Stephan,
Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10
or more dimensions of str
Actually all string theories are based on an n dimensional manifold
where n may be anywhere from 9 to 26 or more dimensions
plus the assumption that all the dimensions but 3 compactify.
I even think of time as a compactified dimension.
Not sure if that's consistent with Relativity.
Theories that r
On 10/25/2012 12:31 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Stephan,
But you said that you liked my paper
which was about how consciousness
might arise from the Compact Manifolds
if they are enumerable
as astronomical observations suggest.
Richard.
Hi Richard,
Yes, I did say that and I still do. In the
On 10/25/2012 12:05 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 25 Oct 2012, at 03:59, Craig Weinberg wrote:
If we turn the Fading Qualia argument around, what we get is a world
in which Comp is true and it is impossible to simulate cellular
activity without evoking the presumed associated experience.
If w
On 10/25/2012 8:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 24 Oct 2012, at 22:20, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/24/2012 11:58 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/23 Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>>
On 22 Oct 2012, at 21:50, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/22 Stephen P. King mailto:steph
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
> On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote:
>
> On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>
> Stephan,
>
> Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10
> or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal becaus
On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Stephan,
Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10
or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they
were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that
curled-up
On 10/25/2012 11:55 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
But I don not mean such kind of anticipation. such anticipation by
gathering information and computation is a fundamental activity of
living beings. I refer to adivination. I suppose that a definition of
adivination is the anticipation of somethin
On 10/25/2012 7:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:51, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/24/2012 7:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21:23 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
On 10/23/2012 6:33 PM, Max Gron wrote:
On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM UTC+10:3
On 10/25/2012 11:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
If you're going to explain purpose, meaning, qualia, thoughts,...you
need to start from something simpler that does not assume those
things. Bruno proposes to explain matter as well, so he has to
start without matter.
Actually I deduce the absenc
On 10/25/2012 9:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:31, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
I dont believe that such genuine anticipation is possible, for a
simple reason: If for quantum or relativistic means the mind or the
brain could genuinely anticipate anything, this would be such a h
Good points. The contrast is usually qualia-v-quanta. I think color can be communicated
and we have an "RGB" language for doing so that makes it more quanta than qualia. So
extending your point to Schrodinger, if you're a wine connoisseur you have a language for
communicating the taste of wine
On 24 Oct 2012, at 17:50, Richard Ruquist wrote:
As a first step below is Cramer's argument. But I might add that MWI
does not seem natural to me at all. Alas I have to invoke god and or
teleology to negate it. TIQM seems to invoke teleology.
Here for your convenience are the key sentences in
Bruno,
Doesn't the Gleason Theorem negate MWI by assigning probabilities?
Richard
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:53, meekerdb wrote:
>
> On 10/24/2012 4:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 23 Oct 2012, at 14:50, Roger Clough wrote:
>
> Hi meekerd
On 10/25/2012 5:17 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
2) Dennett on qualia
"In Consciousness Explained (1991) and "Quining Qualia" (1988),[19] Daniel
Dennett offers an argument against qualia that attempts to
show that the above definition breaks down when one tries to make a practical
application of it.
Stephan,
But you said that you liked my paper
which was about how consciousness
might arise from the Compact Manifolds
if they are enumerable
as astronomical observations suggest.
Richard.
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:
> On 10/25/2012 7:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>
On 25 Oct 2012, at 04:21, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:09:16 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
On 10/24/2012 6:39 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
Note that I too agree with that bit about the interpreter of
information being needed for information to have any objective
meaning.
On 25 Oct 2012, at 03:59, Craig Weinberg wrote:
If we turn the Fading Qualia argument around, what we get is a world
in which Comp is true and it is impossible to simulate cellular
activity without evoking the presumed associated experience.
If we wanted to test a new painkiller for instan
But I don not mean such kind of anticipation. such anticipation by
gathering information and computation is a fundamental activity of
living beings. I refer to adivination. I suppose that a definition of
adivination is the anticipation of something for which we have no
conscious or unconscious inf
On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Stephan,
Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10
or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they
were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that
curled-up/compactified went out of orthogonality d
On 25 Oct 2012, at 03:27, Jason Resch wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:04 AM, John Clark
wrote:
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Jason Resch
wrote
> I think you are missing something. It is a problem that I noticed
after watching the movie "The Prestige"
In my opinion "The Prest
On 25 Oct 2012, at 02:56, Jason Resch wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Bruno Marchal
wrote:
On 21 Oct 2012, at 18:42, Jason Resch wrote:
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Bruno Marchal
wrote:
Hi John,
On 20 Oct 2012, at 23:16, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno,
especially in my i
On 25 Oct 2012, at 02:41, Jason Resch wrote:
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Craig Weinberg
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21:23 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
On 10/23/2012 6:33 PM, Max Gron wrote:
On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM UTC+10:30, Rex Allen wrote:
On Thu, Nov 25,
On 24 Oct 2012, at 22:20, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/24/2012 11:58 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/23 Bruno Marchal
On 22 Oct 2012, at 21:50, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/22 Stephen P. King
On 10/22/2012 2:38 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/22 Russell Standish
On Sun, Oc
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:01:44 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
> On 10/24/2012 10:48 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:29:24 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>>
>> On 10/24/2012 10:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:10:24 AM UTC-4,
On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/23 Bruno Marchal
On 22 Oct 2012, at 21:50, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/22 Stephen P. King
On 10/22/2012 2:38 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/22 Russell Standish
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:38:46PM -0400, Stephen P.
On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:51, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/24/2012 7:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21:23 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
On 10/23/2012 6:33 PM, Max Gron wrote:
On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM UTC+10:30, Rex Allen wrote:
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:40 PM,
On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:29, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/24/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 24 Oct 2012, at 06:03, Stephen P. King wrote:
What difference does what they refer to matter? Eventually
there has to be some physical process or we would be incapable of
even thinking ab
On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:17, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/24/2012 4:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:35, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Nothing is true, even comp, until it is proven by experiment.
Then your own consciousness is false, which I doubt.
But I do experience my
On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:53, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/24/2012 4:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 23 Oct 2012, at 14:50, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi meekerdb
There are a number of theories to explain the collapse of the
quantum wave function
(see below).
1) In subjective theories, the collapse is a
On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:31, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
I dont believe that such genuine anticipation is possible, for a
simple reason: If for quantum or relativistic means the mind or the
brain could genuinely anticipate anything, this would be such a huge
advantage, that this hability would b
I agree.
is there something that can be perceived that is not qualia? It´s
less qualia the shape and location of a circle in ha sheet of paper
than its color?.The fact that the position and radius of the circle
can be measured and communicated does not change the fact that they
produce a subject
On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
2012/10/24 Bruno Marchal
On 24 Oct 2012, at 14:31, Stephen P. King wrote:
http://www.frontiersin.org/Perception_Science/10.3389/fpsyg.2012.00390/abstract
Comments?
If verified it might confirms Helmholtz intuition that "perception"
On 10/25/2012 7:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Stephan,
Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10
or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they
were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that
curled-up/compactified went out of orthogonality d
Dennett and others on qualia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#Daniel_Dennett
1) Schroedinger on qualia.
"Examples of qualia are the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, the
experience of taking a recreational drug,
or the perceived redness of an evening sky. Daniel Dennett writes that qua
Stephan,
Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10
or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they
were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that
curled-up/compactified went out of orthogonality during the big bang
according to Cumrun Vafa. I'l
In order for a computer or comp to simulate an experience
it must be able to generate qualia. That is the plural of
qua穕e/'kw鋖e/
Noun:
A quality or property as perceived or experienced by a person.
So comp must not just simulate an event, it must
simulate the qualia of an event. The even
On 22 Oct 2012, at 15:50, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno,
My own subjectivity is 1p.
OK. By definition.
I don't believe a computer can
have consciousness, but suppose we let the computer have
consciousness as well.
OK. Although it can only be a manner of speaking. If by computer you
On 22 Oct 2012, at 22:55, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/22/2012 4:12 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/22/2012 3:13 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
C3PO would be a phylosophical zombie. It would not?
Hi Alberto,
C3PO did refer to itself (in the Star Wars movies) , so no, it
would not be
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