Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
The other side of that is software the companies use. Not all of it is useable by a screen reader. There are not enough knowledgeable assessable programmers out there to make it useable. Some of those coders just squeak by and hope you don't get fired over it. Just because its for accessibility. The programmers charge from $75 and up a hour even if the code is still not useable. Where I work my co workers enjoy having us blind there. They see that we do the same job they do and meet the same requirements. Another one from this list is one of my co workers. The job is tire ring and you take a load of crap daily! But, the money is good for now and its a job where before no job was thinkable for us by employers. At 10:09 AM 12/3/2009, you wrote: Hi Dark, We have the same problem here on this side of the pond as well. High unemployment rates among the visually impaired, several with excellent credentials but no jobs to match, and only a handful manage to make it into a job somewhere. Our unemployment rates national sucks anyway, but the visually impaired are by far hit the worst by the economic situation. A company can't come out and not higher you because you are blind, but they can set roadblocks in your way in order to make sure you don't get that job all the same A good case in point. Ever since leaving college I've never been able to find local full time employment in a company or firm so tend to work independently out of my home as a tech web administrator, or wherever my skills could prove useful. It doesn't bring in the kind of money my skills should under normal working circumstances, and because I work in the private sector, for myself, I don't have an actual employer to give me references to other companies. So about three years ago I put in an application at AOL in Columbus who were seeking a developer who has experience working with Linux, who knows Java, etc and it looked like something I could do. unfortunately, although I could give them credentials on my Java education I couldn't hand them a slip saying I know Linux even though by then I used it every fricking day on my personal computers, nor could I give them a specific employer since I was in a sense employing myself for the previous few years. They said to me you don't have the experience we are looking for, and out the door I went. The bottom line was I knew I had the skills for that job. how ever, they didn't know that because I hadn't been able to generate the kind of paper work, references, etc that the people I knew in college were getting. I always did well on the phone interviews for a job,but when i showed up in person for the face to face interview things changed rather rapidly for the worse. So I don't have much respect for the so-called high and mighty work ethecs the state agencies push either as it obviously isn't helping. I could go back to school, get a better computer science degree, but would it really and truely help? dark wrote: I admit I'm a litle jaded on the work subject, sinse I've seen too many cases of blind people who have nothing but a high education, no social abilities, and just endlessly apply for jobs to be given excuses. Sinse employers cannot legally say we're worried about employing a visually impared person this also means they just kmake up excuses. My brother sent out 100 cvs a month for 8 years, trying to get a job in law, and was told wonderful things like your not qualified for this position when the position in question asked for two A-levels, --- ie, a basic ending of school qualification, where he was applying with a law degree and a legal practice course. Before this turns into too much of a wrant I'll stop, suffice it to say while I understand the work ethic atitude, it's one which strikes me as incredibly pointless in a country where eighty percent of blind people are unemployed, - and I'd be willing to bet that probably 15 of the last 20 percent are employed by organizations specifically geared towards blind people like the rnib. Luckily, I don't care about being employed, i JUST WANT TO WRITE! IF SOMEONE WILL PAY ME FOR THAT, GREAT! IF NOT, WELL NEVER MIND. i FREELY ADMIT i'M NOT IN ANY WAY AMBICIOUS THOUGH. bEWARE THE GRUE! dARK. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
I know, but these people have most likely seen someone like that famous russian chess player who just played quite a few games at the same time, but I suppose they reckon he was still scanning the boards or something. Fact is I know at least one guy this side though who is VI/blind, but when he plays chess, he doesn't even touch the board, and listening to him playing against someone else, he literally takes around half a second to tell them his next move, but, yes, suppose it still comes down to educating everyone including sighted people, and one of the things was looking into at a time was trying to get into one of those lan gaming sessions, and maybe try at least get sighted guys to try out things like audio quake, top speed 2, sound RTS, BGChess, GMA tank commander, etc. etc. since I think they all have graphics as well, but the idea would be to let blind/VI guys play against them, and maybe we'd also try get them to try it out with a blindfold at some stage as well...LOL! Similar to the two events have organised/been involved in this side, where the one was letting sighties wear blindfolds while listening to a narrated movie soundtrack and trying to eat etc., and recently at a guide dog fundraising walk, some of my friends got some of the participants to try out things like blind dart throwing, blind cricket bowling, etc. - awareness... Maybe, like the fact that there's already been an article about me in local motorcycle magazine relating to me riding a bike etc., we would then try to get the local computing magazines to wake up...yeah right...LOL! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Jacob, Yes, I've seen plenty of people like that as well. Back when I was in college and discovered Audyssey and Audiogames.net i began telling others about it. The general reaction was I don't be leave that could be possible. How could you play games by sound alone? The thing is weather we are talking about sighted or blind reactions to audio games is the general conception of what a game is. Most people think in order to play games you have to have lots of 2d or 3d graphics, that video games are completely visual, and that someone blind could not play a game completely by sound alone. Therefore they never considered the fact someone like USA Games could come up with a game like Mysteries of the Ancients based completely on audio or that GMA could create a Doom clone using a rather advanced FPS engine for the blind. Again this comes back to education. Educating our sighted peers as well as our blind ones. One reason major game companies haven't considered blindness accessibility is fundamentally they doubt it is possible, or that doing so would cost them thousands in extra financial overhead. That is just bologna of course, but try telling them that. Jacob Kruger wrote: Do remember it, and, yup, people just need to know about these things. Unfortunately, the other issue is it's something people generally seem to think is impossible to comprehend, etc. Most sighted guys I've worked on a computer in front of seemed to initially think it was some form of hoax etc., and when you mention games to either sighted guys, or even most other VI computer users, they also seem to have not even considered it as possibly existing...LOL! I've tried promoting websites like audiogames.net on my small mailing list, and have a link to it on my website, but still, have only really found around 3 other guys this side who really seem to be into gaming as such, and you get other guys who are relatively technical on computers, but who never thought of looking for games as such. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4663 (20091205) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4664 (20091206) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
The awareness stuff sounds good Jacob, but bare in mind that thus far, only audio quake and terraformers have actual graphics. Gma tank commander and sound rts have basic graphics which give you some information visually, but are in no way representative of a graphical game (especially with the graphics of games today). As to the chess thing, I've seen my brother play a match of chess without any contact with the board whatsoever, doing everything in his head. That's not so much a sight thing though, as being an amazingly good chess player, and is quite open to anyone to use. I've myself done guide dog events like that, most recently a car drive which was rather fun. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games I know, but these people have most likely seen someone like that famous russian chess player who just played quite a few games at the same time, but I suppose they reckon he was still scanning the boards or something. Fact is I know at least one guy this side though who is VI/blind, but when he plays chess, he doesn't even touch the board, and listening to him playing against someone else, he literally takes around half a second to tell them his next move, but, yes, suppose it still comes down to educating everyone including sighted people, and one of the things was looking into at a time was trying to get into one of those lan gaming sessions, and maybe try at least get sighted guys to try out things like audio quake, top speed 2, sound RTS, BGChess, GMA tank commander, etc. etc. since I think they all have graphics as well, but the idea would be to let blind/VI guys play against them, and maybe we'd also try get them to try it out with a blindfold at some stage as well...LOL! Similar to the two events have organised/been involved in this side, where the one was letting sighties wear blindfolds while listening to a narrated movie soundtrack and trying to eat etc., and recently at a guide dog fundraising walk, some of my friends got some of the participants to try out things like blind dart throwing, blind cricket bowling, etc. - awareness... Maybe, like the fact that there's already been an article about me in local motorcycle magazine relating to me riding a bike etc., we would then try to get the local computing magazines to wake up...yeah right...LOL! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Jacob, Yes, I've seen plenty of people like that as well. Back when I was in college and discovered Audyssey and Audiogames.net i began telling others about it. The general reaction was I don't be leave that could be possible. How could you play games by sound alone? The thing is weather we are talking about sighted or blind reactions to audio games is the general conception of what a game is. Most people think in order to play games you have to have lots of 2d or 3d graphics, that video games are completely visual, and that someone blind could not play a game completely by sound alone. Therefore they never considered the fact someone like USA Games could come up with a game like Mysteries of the Ancients based completely on audio or that GMA could create a Doom clone using a rather advanced FPS engine for the blind. Again this comes back to education. Educating our sighted peers as well as our blind ones. One reason major game companies haven't considered blindness accessibility is fundamentally they doubt it is possible, or that doing so would cost them thousands in extra financial overhead. That is just bologna of course, but try telling them that. Jacob Kruger wrote: Do remember it, and, yup, people just need to know about these things. Unfortunately, the other issue is it's something people generally seem to think is impossible to comprehend, etc. Most sighted guys I've worked on a computer in front of seemed to initially think it was some form of hoax etc., and when you mention games to either sighted guys, or even most other VI computer users, they also seem to have not even considered it as possibly existing...LOL! I've tried promoting websites like audiogames.net on my small mailing list, and have a link to it on my website, but still, have only really found around 3 other guys this side who really seem to be into gaming as such, and you get other guys who are relatively technical on computers, but who never thought of looking for games as such. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA --- Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
The guy who develops the vOICe, Peter Meijer, reckons he sometimes visualises things based on certain types of sounds, but think that's partly due to years of working on things like this. OTOH, there's the joke that if you get hit in the head with a hard ball or something, you'll see a flash of light as you go down...LOL! Suppose it actually comes down to that if you don't consider/think about something, you might very well be a bit 'confused' the first time...? I also remember when was still lying in hospital, and newly blind, when my then employers came and told me about screen readers etc., I wasn't initially sure if what they were talking about could be 'real' since wasn't something had ever really thought about. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Interestingly enough Tom, because I have many friends who are very active gamers, and because I also play older graphical games, I've had a fair few discussions on the subject. Once on the forum of retroremakes.com I started a topic about including audio remakes on their site along with the graphical ones. The project didn't go as planned sinse their site only lists free remakes of games, thus games like packman talks or shades of doom wouldn't be applicable (though I did point several people in the direction of Dark destroyer). The interesting bit though, was until I'd explained the concept, most people assumed that an audio game must work like an interactive fiction or Mud, with every game event being literally described. When talking about packman talks, --- one person said; doesn't it get boring being told You eat a dot, you eat another dot, --- you eat another dot etc. I of course explained exactly how the game worked, and the person did understand, but I do wonder if this is a basic problem of understanding the quality of sensory information. While people know sound can convey information by way of speech, and ambience by way of audio or background sounds, I wonder if, outside the world of audio drama and audio games, people really realize that sound can be used to represent individual objects or elements as easily as graphics can, even highly complex relations in a 3D space. Indeed one thing I findvery interesting aabout audio games is how representative they can be. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4663 (20091205) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4664 (20091206) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
I know, but idea is it might still give them a basic idea relating to how the sound effects relate to the graphical rendition. I did also put together a very simple version of snakes and ladders at some stage, but using the original snakes and ladders board I got off wikipedia as a background image, and with sort of enforced talking using either SAPI or your screen reader along with simple sound effects, and part of the idea was that maybe if sighted kids played it, they'd at least have an idea of what screenreaders could do, but my one irritation was that apparently the blocks on that board aren't exactly the same sizes, so my character pieces (simple windows labels with the smiley face character in them) apparently seemed to go off course when I just moved them over 38 pixels at a time, and haven't found a graphic designer etc. who seems able to understand what I told them I wanted to know and let them look at the board... Will try find a copy thereof if anyone wants to check it out...but it's extremely simplistic, and was really more of a test app with regard to making the computer talk as such. I also have two sighted friends who sometimes prefer to wear blindfolds when playing chess as well. The other silly joke is I tell my sighted friends not to let me deal my braille playing cards since tell them maybe I'd be able to feel what I'm dealing... Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games The awareness stuff sounds good Jacob, but bare in mind that thus far, only audio quake and terraformers have actual graphics. Gma tank commander and sound rts have basic graphics which give you some information visually, but are in no way representative of a graphical game (especially with the graphics of games today). As to the chess thing, I've seen my brother play a match of chess without any contact with the board whatsoever, doing everything in his head. That's not so much a sight thing though, as being an amazingly good chess player, and is quite open to anyone to use. I've myself done guide dog events like that, most recently a car drive which was rather fun. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games I know, but these people have most likely seen someone like that famous russian chess player who just played quite a few games at the same time, but I suppose they reckon he was still scanning the boards or something. Fact is I know at least one guy this side though who is VI/blind, but when he plays chess, he doesn't even touch the board, and listening to him playing against someone else, he literally takes around half a second to tell them his next move, but, yes, suppose it still comes down to educating everyone including sighted people, and one of the things was looking into at a time was trying to get into one of those lan gaming sessions, and maybe try at least get sighted guys to try out things like audio quake, top speed 2, sound RTS, BGChess, GMA tank commander, etc. etc. since I think they all have graphics as well, but the idea would be to let blind/VI guys play against them, and maybe we'd also try get them to try it out with a blindfold at some stage as well...LOL! Similar to the two events have organised/been involved in this side, where the one was letting sighties wear blindfolds while listening to a narrated movie soundtrack and trying to eat etc., and recently at a guide dog fundraising walk, some of my friends got some of the participants to try out things like blind dart throwing, blind cricket bowling, etc. - awareness... Maybe, like the fact that there's already been an article about me in local motorcycle magazine relating to me riding a bike etc., we would then try to get the local computing magazines to wake up...yeah right...LOL! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Jacob, Yes, I've seen plenty of people like that as well. Back when I was in college and discovered Audyssey and Audiogames.net i began telling others about it. The general reaction was I don't be leave that could be possible. How could you play games by sound alone? The thing is weather we are talking about sighted or blind reactions to audio games is the general conception of what a game is. Most people think in order to play
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Jacob, Yes, I've seen plenty of people like that as well. Back when I was in college and discovered Audyssey and Audiogames.net i began telling others about it. The general reaction was I don't be leave that could be possible. How could you play games by sound alone? The thing is weather we are talking about sighted or blind reactions to audio games is the general conception of what a game is. Most people think in order to play games you have to have lots of 2d or 3d graphics, that video games are completely visual, and that someone blind could not play a game completely by sound alone. Therefore they never considered the fact someone like USA Games could come up with a game like Mysteries of the Ancients based completely on audio or that GMA could create a Doom clone using a rather advanced FPS engine for the blind. Again this comes back to education. Educating our sighted peers as well as our blind ones. One reason major game companies haven't considered blindness accessibility is fundamentally they doubt it is possible, or that doing so would cost them thousands in extra financial overhead. That is just bologna of course, but try telling them that. Jacob Kruger wrote: Do remember it, and, yup, people just need to know about these things. Unfortunately, the other issue is it's something people generally seem to think is impossible to comprehend, etc. Most sighted guys I've worked on a computer in front of seemed to initially think it was some form of hoax etc., and when you mention games to either sighted guys, or even most other VI computer users, they also seem to have not even considered it as possibly existing...LOL! I've tried promoting websites like audiogames.net on my small mailing list, and have a link to it on my website, but still, have only really found around 3 other guys this side who really seem to be into gaming as such, and you get other guys who are relatively technical on computers, but who never thought of looking for games as such. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Interestingly enough Tom, because I have many friends who are very active gamers, and because I also play older graphical games, I've had a fair few discussions on the subject. Once on the forum of retroremakes.com I started a topic about including audio remakes on their site along with the graphical ones. The project didn't go as planned sinse their site only lists free remakes of games, thus games like packman talks or shades of doom wouldn't be applicable (though I did point several people in the direction of Dark destroyer). The interesting bit though, was until I'd explained the concept, most people assumed that an audio game must work like an interactive fiction or Mud, with every game event being literally described. When talking about packman talks, --- one person said; doesn't it get boring being told You eat a dot, you eat another dot, --- you eat another dot etc. I of course explained exactly how the game worked, and the person did understand, but I do wonder if this is a basic problem of understanding the quality of sensory information. While people know sound can convey information by way of speech, and ambience by way of audio or background sounds, I wonder if, outside the world of audio drama and audio games, people really realize that sound can be used to represent individual objects or elements as easily as graphics can, even highly complex relations in a 3D space. Indeed one thing I findvery interesting aabout audio games is how representative they can be. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Well yes games are secondary nobody is arguing that, that's not even an issue. I mean you aren't going to make a living out of playing games. Although it would be nice though But it's this rather stupid mentality of oh games aren't meant for computers or blind people shouldn't be playing games that's what I think is wrong. I mean we all need some form of enjoyment or stress relief at the end of the day for what ever reason. I mean, what's better, playing games, drinking or smoking yourself to death? Because people will find an outlet somewhere and I think gaming is much more healthy in the long run. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: 04 December 2009 00:59 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games yeah games are secondary, fair enough I suppose. don't lose heart though, we are not out the woods yet. I know for example that mushclient can work direct with jaws and windoweyes and a map exists for lonewolf in hal 5 and later. I think though that expecting the manufacturers to make game scripts just won't happen, however thats no big concern, all readers, hal, jaws and windoweyes have some form of scripting, jaws is scripted and has been for a long time. windoweyes and hal although they had setting and map files respectively have got scripts and people are actively using and developing, true it may cost a bit to get the script adition of the software but at the end of the day you have the tools. nvda was made in python and its an opensource system, you can write modules for it these are scripts by default. At 07:22 a.m. 4/12/2009, you wrote: They'll probably say that it will corrupt the software. Which is a pile of crap as we all know but that will be their argument. Thus if it were me I'd just get the system and install it anyway lol. There's always an uninstall button if they decide to come see you. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 03 December 2009 17:27 To: Charles Rivard; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Charles, Your guess is as good as mine. I imagine the agencies are primarily focussed on work and business so devote all of their funding and interests into that endever. They see what they do, trying to get blind people employed by giving them computers for work in school, is more important than telling their clients that developer x has a few accessible games to play. They could, for example, put some free games on the system like Jim Kitchens Casino, Life, Monopoly, Hangman, whatever as a start, but they won't because it doesn't have anything to do with their business software only computers. Charles Rivard wrote: Sighted people have games on their computers, and those games are played. That's why gaming is such a big industry. For the sighted computer user, a computer is not a work only device. Why on earth should this not be so for the blind computer user? Windows comes with free games, even. Isn't this a clue for agencies who buy computers for blind people? Duh?? --- In God we trust! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
This relates to one of my personal gripes/grudges this side of the world. According to our government, any company larger than something like 20 employees is forced to incorporate what they call affirmative action, which means they have to employ a representative bit of the population in terms of race, gender, etc. etc., but it also means that if they apparently employ something like 1 in 100 disabled people, it counts as affirmative action, and I was actually told by a local occupational therapist that my most common job offer would be to sit in the corner and drink coffee, while being officially on their payroll, and I honestly told her, I'd tell them to bugger off if someone tried something like that. Fact is people assume blind people can't even do something like pour their own coffee, or my dumbest question have been asked a few times is how we brush our teeth - sorry, but you're standing in front of the bathroom mirror due to the basin/tap generally being there underneath it. Anyway, fact is that as long as you know how to, and what extra technology you might need to make use of, it's actually rather unlikely there are too many things a VI person can't do as well, if not better than some assumptive sighted people... That's one of my personal, off topic rants, but anyway...will shut up now and go sit in the corner and drink my coffee... Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games I admit I'm a litle jaded on the work subject, sinse I've seen too many cases of blind people who have nothing but a high education, no social abilities, and just endlessly apply for jobs to be given excuses. Sinse employers cannot legally say we're worried about employing a visually impared person this also means they just kmake up excuses. My brother sent out 100 cvs a month for 8 years, trying to get a job in law, and was told wonderful things like your not qualified for this position when the position in question asked for two A-levels, --- ie, a basic ending of school qualification, where he was applying with a law degree and a legal practice course. Before this turns into too much of a wrant I'll stop, suffice it to say while I understand the work ethic atitude, it's one which strikes me as incredibly pointless in a country where eighty percent of blind people are unemployed, - and I'd be willing to bet that probably 15 of the last 20 percent are employed by organizations specifically geared towards blind people like the rnib. Luckily, I don't care about being employed, i JUST WANT TO WRITE! IF SOMEONE WILL PAY ME FOR THAT, GREAT! IF NOT, WELL NEVER MIND. i FREELY ADMIT i'M NOT IN ANY WAY AMBICIOUS THOUGH. bEWARE THE GRUE! dARK. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4661 (20091204) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4661 (20091204) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
hmmm I can get that side. my brother is a chronic game player. he wastes his days playing poker, or battlefield or something after he mangled his hand doing battlefield and ra2 all the time he went to poker but he now sleeps late gets up later and plays all day. I know that I can get on a role and play with the pc whilst I really should be practicing music, cycling, and other things, people make it out that I am quite slack, and I suppose I am quite slack but I think my brother may be a level lower, I at least semi do stuff which although its not really doing it is better than just slobbing not that at one stage I was like this. I think as blind people we seem to stay with what we know, I like my computer, its my comunication its my plaything especially when its my self thats left at home for most of the day. And its my god, ooops issue is now I really need to manage time, because I am now a lazy prick, I promise I will get it one of these days the question is when. Games can be also a danger. Its when you are plain forbidden from playing games for any reason religious or otherwise, or just bard for using a computer or doing something because you are blind or because you do as you are told. I know my family wish I would do more and will nagg me constantly but they won't bar me I don't think, though they keep warning me I will have a boring life after they go and They keep telling me hoping I will get the message, and I suppose I will eventually have to do something about this. Hmmm this chair is so soft snore later At 12:46 a.m. 5/12/2009, you wrote: Well yes games are secondary nobody is arguing that, that's not even an issue. I mean you aren't going to make a living out of playing games. Although it would be nice though But it's this rather stupid mentality of oh games aren't meant for computers or blind people shouldn't be playing games that's what I think is wrong. I mean we all need some form of enjoyment or stress relief at the end of the day for what ever reason. I mean, what's better, playing games, drinking or smoking yourself to death? Because people will find an outlet somewhere and I think gaming is much more healthy in the long run. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: 04 December 2009 00:59 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games yeah games are secondary, fair enough I suppose. don't lose heart though, we are not out the woods yet. I know for example that mushclient can work direct with jaws and windoweyes and a map exists for lonewolf in hal 5 and later. I think though that expecting the manufacturers to make game scripts just won't happen, however thats no big concern, all readers, hal, jaws and windoweyes have some form of scripting, jaws is scripted and has been for a long time. windoweyes and hal although they had setting and map files respectively have got scripts and people are actively using and developing, true it may cost a bit to get the script adition of the software but at the end of the day you have the tools. nvda was made in python and its an opensource system, you can write modules for it these are scripts by default. At 07:22 a.m. 4/12/2009, you wrote: They'll probably say that it will corrupt the software. Which is a pile of crap as we all know but that will be their argument. Thus if it were me I'd just get the system and install it anyway lol. There's always an uninstall button if they decide to come see you. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 03 December 2009 17:27 To: Charles Rivard; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Charles, Your guess is as good as mine. I imagine the agencies are primarily focussed on work and business so devote all of their funding and interests into that endever. They see what they do, trying to get blind people employed by giving them computers for work in school, is more important than telling their clients that developer x has a few accessible games to play. They could, for example, put some free games on the system like Jim Kitchens Casino, Life, Monopoly, Hangman, whatever as a start, but they won't because it doesn't have anything to do with their business software only computers. Charles Rivard wrote: Sighted people have games on their computers, and those games are played. That's why gaming is such a big industry. For the sighted computer user, a computer is not a work only device. Why on earth should this not be so for the blind computer user? Windows comes with free games, even. Isn't this a clue for agencies who buy computers for blind people? Duh?? --- In God we trust! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Do remember it, and, yup, people just need to know about these things. Unfortunately, the other issue is it's something people generally seem to think is impossible to comprehend, etc. Most sighted guys I've worked on a computer in front of seemed to initially think it was some form of hoax etc., and when you mention games to either sighted guys, or even most other VI computer users, they also seem to have not even considered it as possibly existing...LOL! I've tried promoting websites like audiogames.net on my small mailing list, and have a link to it on my website, but still, have only really found around 3 other guys this side who really seem to be into gaming as such, and you get other guys who are relatively technical on computers, but who never thought of looking for games as such. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Nicol Oosthuizen noosthui...@sars.gov.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games HI Tom and all Sorry, I came into this thread rather late. I just want to say that I am planning to arrange with a south African radio station, rsg, to do a show on accessible games.] If willem and Jacob listens to rsg, they will probably remember 5leefwêreld van die gestremdes In English, living world of the disabled held on Sunday afternoons. It would rock if I can do a show on there about accessible games. And I will definitely talk about some awesome developers such as tom and phil and philip. Then blind people and also sighted people in the whole of south Africa who listens to rsg, will be made aware about accessible games. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 02 December 2009 06:26 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Well, at this point I'm not sure how much actual advertising we need. I think the big picture, as has been said before, is to get the word out that good high quality games exist. By showing off game x and letting a few blind people try them, perhaps let their friends and family see them, etc it might make a difference in letting people know that this stuff exists and it doesn't need to remain in the backwater of the galaxy forever. It is time we make ourselves known to more and more people, agencies for the blind, and break out of this apathetic rut we have fallen into. Please Note: This email and its contents are subject to our email legal notice which can be viewed at http://www.sars.gov.za/Email_Disclaimer.pdf --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4661 (20091204) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4661 (20091204) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, Yes, in deedd it would be a good idea. Some sort of promo cd with game trailers would help out a lot as people wouldn't have to play the games, but could listen to someone else playing and explaining the games to them. dark wrote: That would indeed be a good idea, especially if we could contrive some kind of promotional cd with various game trailers on./ in general a sort of intro to audio games promo cd would probably help, sinse such a cd could be sent with information to various oraganizations, schools etc, as well as being handed out at shows like sight village and similar. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi all I'd also suggest a cd could be done with some demo games and perhaps a few issues of Audyssey. Then not only would the person have the games to continue with but info to look into other titles as well. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Yes, in deedd it would be a good idea. Some sort of promo cd with game trailers would help out a lot as people wouldn't have to play the games, but could listen to someone else playing and explaining the games to them. dark wrote: That would indeed be a good idea, especially if we could contrive some kind of promotional cd with various game trailers on./ in general a sort of intro to audio games promo cd would probably help, sinse such a cd could be sent with information to various oraganizations, schools etc, as well as being handed out at shows like sight village and similar. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Phil, I've seen quite a lot of that sort of mentality among state agencies and among certain blind computer users myself. I think that attitude comes from the fact so many blind employees have to work twice as hard to get anywhere in the business world, to over come various mainstream attitudes of blindness in general, they end up taking work far too seriously. They end up putting their computer over in the work column and other things like music, audio books, etc over in the entertainment column. Which doesn't have to be. Here is a case in point. I have a friend I met in college around 1997 or so. I was pursuing a degree in computer science and he was going into marketing. After he left college and got a job with a company with a marketing firm in Cincinnati BSVI fit the bill for a computer that came with Jaws, Openbook, Microsoft Office, and other business software for his home use. After he got the computer I urged him to check out Audyssey, audiogames.net, etc for some great games he could install on his new system. His reply was simply this. Well, BSVI purchased this computer so I could do work at home, and it wouldn't be right if I began using it for games and things like that. If someday I buy my own computer maybe I will check out some of those games, music mp3s, and other stuff out there for the computer. However, for now since this is BSVI's computer I'm just going to use it for work. I don't know how common this attitude is among blind computer users, but this example may give us some insights in to why it is so hard to market our games outside the Audyssey and audiogames.net communities. It is no secret BSVI, BVR,and other state agencies tend to purchase computers for any blind student attending college or entering the work force who needs one. As a result many may feel as my friend does that the computer isn't really theirs and that because it was purchased for work and school purposes that is all they are allowed to do with it. They may feel by installing games etc on that computer they are being dishonest or at the very least will appear to be goofing off on a computer intended for work only. I really can't say myself, because I didn't go through the state agencies for my computer systems. I purchased my own computers and got them to fit the bill for my education, books, reader writers, etc. So since the computers were actually mine, paid for by my own money, I felt this is my computer and I'll darn well use it as I please. Perhaps those who get computers through state agencies don't feel that way about their computers, and feel compelled to toe the official line. Phil Vlasak wrote: Hi Thomas, That is the comment we got at the blind conventions. Computers are for Jobs and not for Play! They told us that they preferred to read a book or listen to the radio if they wanted entertainment. It is like someone asked them to try eating some frozen cow's milk mixed with vegetable seeds and they didn't like the concept so did not try the chocolate ice cream. Or maybe they were afraid they would like the games so much they would be addicted to them and not want to do work. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Agreed and the fact that audyssey is the magazine to do with all of these games and developments and the like, will show that there is a very active interest in this. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Ron Schamerhorn Sent: 03 December 2009 13:46 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi all I'd also suggest a cd could be done with some demo games and perhaps a few issues of Audyssey. Then not only would the person have the games to continue with but info to look into other titles as well. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Yes, in deedd it would be a good idea. Some sort of promo cd with game trailers would help out a lot as people wouldn't have to play the games, but could listen to someone else playing and explaining the games to them. dark wrote: That would indeed be a good idea, especially if we could contrive some kind of promotional cd with various game trailers on./ in general a sort of intro to audio games promo cd would probably help, sinse such a cd could be sent with information to various oraganizations, schools etc, as well as being handed out at shows like sight village and similar. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi David, Very interesting post. Yeah, that was my impresssion as well. some of these larger more well known agencies tend to stress the blind image as a hard working, respectible, better than average person a bit too far. A good case in point is one of the rules I saw in the Seeing Eye's dress code. A couple of years back I was looking into getting a guide dog, and I was going to apply at the Seeing Eye. The thing that stopped me from applying there was when I read that for dinner I was to show up in formal dress clothes. I felt at the time that they were trying to push the definition of respectable a bit too far. I'm there to get a guide dog not to show up at dinner dressed in a suit and tie looking like some wealthy businessman. Whatever the case they have their high standards of dress code, and self-image to keep. Anyway, I know what you are saying. These agencies do want to present the blind as hard working, respectable, well dresssed people and some times they push that image too far. Some times to the point that their clients do work too hard, become over achievers, and don't know when to relax and just be cool. When to hang out at the office and pal around abit with the other associates. When it is ok to put games on his/her home computer and just relax with a good game of Aliens in the Outback, Blackjack, or Uno. David Chittenden wrote: Hello, The belief of some the blindness orgs seems to be that the only way to make blindness respectable is if blind people are seen as always working. This ignores social connections and the fact that if one is able to relax better, one can work better. I remember my first job in a mid-sized office. I was the most efficient worker there. After a few months, my supervisor took me aside and told me to become a little more sociable with the rest of the staff. I could not understand what her problem was until I returned to school. During one of my HR management courses, I learned about how the over-achievers can be as much of a problem on office moralle and good office functioning as under-achievers. All of the blindness training which focuses on work to the exclusion of everything else ignores this, and thereby performs a disservice to blind people. David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, We have the same problem here on this side of the pond as well. High unemployment rates among the visually impaired, several with excellent credentials but no jobs to match, and only a handful manage to make it into a job somewhere. Our unemployment rates national sucks anyway, but the visually impaired are by far hit the worst by the economic situation. A company can't come out and not higher you because you are blind, but they can set roadblocks in your way in order to make sure you don't get that job all the same A good case in point. Ever since leaving college I've never been able to find local full time employment in a company or firm so tend to work independently out of my home as a tech web administrator, or wherever my skills could prove useful. It doesn't bring in the kind of money my skills should under normal working circumstances, and because I work in the private sector, for myself, I don't have an actual employer to give me references to other companies. So about three years ago I put in an application at AOL in Columbus who were seeking a developer who has experience working with Linux, who knows Java, etc and it looked like something I could do. unfortunately, although I could give them credentials on my Java education I couldn't hand them a slip saying I know Linux even though by then I used it every fricking day on my personal computers, nor could I give them a specific employer since I was in a sense employing myself for the previous few years. They said to me you don't have the experience we are looking for, and out the door I went. The bottom line was I knew I had the skills for that job. how ever, they didn't know that because I hadn't been able to generate the kind of paper work, references, etc that the people I knew in college were getting. I always did well on the phone interviews for a job,but when i showed up in person for the face to face interview things changed rather rapidly for the worse. So I don't have much respect for the so-called high and mighty work ethecs the state agencies push either as it obviously isn't helping. I could go back to school, get a better computer science degree, but would it really and truely help? dark wrote: I admit I'm a litle jaded on the work subject, sinse I've seen too many cases of blind people who have nothing but a high education, no social abilities, and just endlessly apply for jobs to be given excuses. Sinse employers cannot legally say we're worried about employing a visually impared person this also means they just kmake up excuses. My brother sent out 100 cvs a month for 8 years, trying to get a job in law, and was told wonderful things like your not qualified for this position when the position in question asked for two A-levels, --- ie, a basic ending of school qualification, where he was applying with a law degree and a legal practice course. Before this turns into too much of a wrant I'll stop, suffice it to say while I understand the work ethic atitude, it's one which strikes me as incredibly pointless in a country where eighty percent of blind people are unemployed, - and I'd be willing to bet that probably 15 of the last 20 percent are employed by organizations specifically geared towards blind people like the rnib. Luckily, I don't care about being employed, i JUST WANT TO WRITE! IF SOMEONE WILL PAY ME FOR THAT, GREAT! IF NOT, WELL NEVER MIND. i FREELY ADMIT i'M NOT IN ANY WAY AMBICIOUS THOUGH. bEWARE THE GRUE! dARK. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
hello Tom. To an extent I understand this mentality, sinse as I said in my other message it's been one I've always been strict about in my grants. my first laptop for uni, as well as Hal etc was provided by my local education authority. While I certainly would not spend any of their money to perchice games etc, once they'd paid for the computer it was essentially mine. I had nobody to return it to, and indeed used it constantly for six years before it quite literally just shut down through wear. The basic system, --- the laptop with windows 98, ms office and Hal was indeed provided in order that I be able to complete first my degree, then my masters. The laptop certainly was very necessary, not just for the obvious writing tasks, but for reading academic material online, and keeping in touch with university happenings via E-mail, I was president of the philosophy society, and all organizational matters for that, including booking speakers for events happened through E-mail. All this being said though, the laptop was mine! while it had been provided to put me on an equal footing with fuly sighted students, it was stil mine! if my gaming had in some way cost the local authority more money, say for instance I'd tried to get them to pay for a joystick or a set of good quality sterrio headphones, that would very much have been wrong, as that was not the purpose of the grant. But so long as I kept gaming on my own resources, and my own time, I really don't see the arguement. The laptop had afterall already been bought and paid for, and after that point the local authority had nothing to do with it. If I'd been a lazy bumb and spent all my degree time playing games, and thus failed my degree, that would've been my own fault, and it would've made no difference if I did that on a laptop, a games console, --- or even at a casino. The laptop was there to give me the oppertunity to work, whatever else i did is my affair, including whatever else I did with the laptop! Beware the gRue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Charles, Your guess is as good as mine. I imagine the agencies are primarily focussed on work and business so devote all of their funding and interests into that endever. They see what they do, trying to get blind people employed by giving them computers for work in school, is more important than telling their clients that developer x has a few accessible games to play. They could, for example, put some free games on the system like Jim Kitchens Casino, Life, Monopoly, Hangman, whatever as a start, but they won't because it doesn't have anything to do with their business software only computers. Charles Rivard wrote: Sighted people have games on their computers, and those games are played. That's why gaming is such a big industry. For the sighted computer user, a computer is not a work only device. Why on earth should this not be so for the blind computer user? Windows comes with free games, even. Isn't this a clue for agencies who buy computers for blind people? Duh?? --- In God we trust! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
They'll probably say that it will corrupt the software. Which is a pile of crap as we all know but that will be their argument. Thus if it were me I'd just get the system and install it anyway lol. There's always an uninstall button if they decide to come see you. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 03 December 2009 17:27 To: Charles Rivard; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Charles, Your guess is as good as mine. I imagine the agencies are primarily focussed on work and business so devote all of their funding and interests into that endever. They see what they do, trying to get blind people employed by giving them computers for work in school, is more important than telling their clients that developer x has a few accessible games to play. They could, for example, put some free games on the system like Jim Kitchens Casino, Life, Monopoly, Hangman, whatever as a start, but they won't because it doesn't have anything to do with their business software only computers. Charles Rivard wrote: Sighted people have games on their computers, and those games are played. That's why gaming is such a big industry. For the sighted computer user, a computer is not a work only device. Why on earth should this not be so for the blind computer user? Windows comes with free games, even. Isn't this a clue for agencies who buy computers for blind people? Duh?? --- In God we trust! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
yeah games are secondary, fair enough I suppose. don't lose heart though, we are not out the woods yet. I know for example that mushclient can work direct with jaws and windoweyes and a map exists for lonewolf in hal 5 and later. I think though that expecting the manufacturers to make game scripts just won't happen, however thats no big concern, all readers, hal, jaws and windoweyes have some form of scripting, jaws is scripted and has been for a long time. windoweyes and hal although they had setting and map files respectively have got scripts and people are actively using and developing, true it may cost a bit to get the script adition of the software but at the end of the day you have the tools. nvda was made in python and its an opensource system, you can write modules for it these are scripts by default. At 07:22 a.m. 4/12/2009, you wrote: They'll probably say that it will corrupt the software. Which is a pile of crap as we all know but that will be their argument. Thus if it were me I'd just get the system and install it anyway lol. There's always an uninstall button if they decide to come see you. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 03 December 2009 17:27 To: Charles Rivard; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Charles, Your guess is as good as mine. I imagine the agencies are primarily focussed on work and business so devote all of their funding and interests into that endever. They see what they do, trying to get blind people employed by giving them computers for work in school, is more important than telling their clients that developer x has a few accessible games to play. They could, for example, put some free games on the system like Jim Kitchens Casino, Life, Monopoly, Hangman, whatever as a start, but they won't because it doesn't have anything to do with their business software only computers. Charles Rivard wrote: Sighted people have games on their computers, and those games are played. That's why gaming is such a big industry. For the sighted computer user, a computer is not a work only device. Why on earth should this not be so for the blind computer user? Windows comes with free games, even. Isn't this a clue for agencies who buy computers for blind people? Duh?? --- In God we trust! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi thomas, Absolutely true. Also the thing with these types of conventions, is that the focus is totally on work and professional uses of the computer. They don't seem to hold the attitude that blind people would want to play games and that's from within our own community! Indeed I've even herd of cases where gaming in the blind community is looked down upon can you believe that? So for various reasons this does need to get out. Sad but true. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 01 December 2009 22:38 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Darren, That's quite true. Games like Tank Commander, Shades of Doom, Sarah, and Mysteries of the Ancients are beginning to catch up with there mainstream counter parts, and just getting the message out there that we can play rather sifisticated games should be the over all message. I know when I first lost my vision and I could no longer play Jedi Knight, Tomb Raider, Soldier of Fortune, and other games that were out in the 90's I didn't realy know what was available for me as a blind gamer. For a long while all I knew about was interactive fiction text games I found on the net, wrote afew text games on my own, and I had heard about Jim Kitchen's free games through a friend. I thought that was all there was until i found Audyssey around 2000, and found out there was GMA, ESP, and various other accessible game developers out there. I was very quite surprised and delited when I found out GMA was developing a clone of doom, which was in beta when I discovered them, because I believed I was the first person to think up the idea of eventually creating a FPS game after college. Anyway, getting the word out that such games do exist would make a lot of young blind gamershappy if they could hear about it. So many of them like me wanted to play Doom, Resident Evil, or whatever their friends are playing, and can't because the mainstream titles aren't accessible. The fact such games do exist and are beginning to be developed now should be gotten to them when and where we can. Darren Harris wrote: Hi, No but at least by showing said games off you're showing the capabilities that are on offer with an audio game. You're proving that it's not just a series of beeps and that's it. There's a whole lot more to it basically and that's what we really need to get out or otherwise there isn't really going to be that much interest generated. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 19:32:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 19:32:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
a bad thing indeed. As a side note, the actual serious work I'm doing on my deffinition of disability in my thesis is based very much on the quali8ty of a person's life and how much effort it takes for them to fulfill their desires. Playing games on this model is just as worthy of access for disabled people as changes in a place of work. I'll stop woffling about my thesis though, suffice it to say, that people who say such things are most distinctly and totally talking out of bodily openings not connected to their brains! beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi thomas, Absolutely true. Also the thing with these types of conventions, is that the focus is totally on work and professional uses of the computer. They don't seem to hold the attitude that blind people would want to play games and that's from within our own community! Indeed I've even herd of cases where gaming in the blind community is looked down upon can you believe that? So for various reasons this does need to get out. Sad but true. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, Well, at this point I'm not sure how much actual advertising we need. I think the big picture, as has been said before, is to get the word out that good high quality games exist. By showing off game x and letting a few blind people try them, perhaps let their friends and family see them, etc it might make a difference in letting people know that this stuff exists and it doesn't need to remain in the backwater of the galaxy forever. It is time we make ourselves known to more and more people, agencies for the blind, and break out of this apathetic rut we have fallen into. dark wrote: That's an interesting idea Tom, but I'll wait and see what the organizers tell me, and what Richard and Sander have to say about the idea. Also please remember that other than sitting on a stall at freshers' fair when i was president of the university philosophy society persuading students to sign up, i have no training or experience in advertising or markiting whatsoever. The booth would just be me, --- -and anyone else who came, with a laptop, two sets of headphones, and my double sterrio headphone jack. How successful I'd be in promotion, --- -I honestly have no idea. I certainly wouldn't have to tell any fibs about game quality, but whether I'd be persuasive enough to be any good I really can't say. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, I do see your point. Although, perhaps we could prepare some audio trailers of different games to let people here some of the more complex games being played in action. Just a few short clips of what they could get into if they were to play this or that game. dark wrote: It is a miner problem Tom. I could partially get around it by using two sets of sterrio headphones and demoing myself for a bit then giving instructions to the person trying the game, --- -but sinse I was thinking of this as a hay look, --- -here are audio games, --- aren't they cool! I'd rather have something which grabbed people's attention quickly with not much effort than something which was long and complex, sort of the audio game version of a big flashy intro on a graphical game promotion at E3 or a similar computer game show. That's why the games I initially thought of, a wide enough variety to show the people there were different genres (afterall, if I get someone who's not an action fan, it'd be bad if I couldn't show an alternative), were games which it is comparatively easy to show quickkly. even smugglers 4, it's just a matter of etelling a person to click on panets to fly around, then click on fire to shoot at an enemy ship when getting into a fight, all very stant sinse there are no keys to deal with or sounds to learn. Of course, if I was specifically commitioned to demo certain games i would try m best to demo them, but this is one reason I wanted a specific booth for audiogames.net, to represent the audio game playing interest in general, rather than any one games company in particular, to show people that there are many games which appeal to different tastes and needs, and that such games are fun, and not overwhlemingly difficulty to play and understand, especially for people who may be less computer savy! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
True Tom. On that vane I can certainly see if action for blind people would run another pole as they did last year, --0-- which would certainly help. For other agencies in the Uk I'm not certain (the rnib ar a waste of space as I've said0, but I'll have a think. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Well, at this point I'm not sure how much actual advertising we need. I think the big picture, as has been said before, is to get the word out that good high quality games exist. By showing off game x and letting a few blind people try them, perhaps let their friends and family see them, etc it might make a difference in letting people know that this stuff exists and it doesn't need to remain in the backwater of the galaxy forever. It is time we make ourselves known to more and more people, agencies for the blind, and break out of this apathetic rut we have fallen into. dark wrote: That's an interesting idea Tom, but I'll wait and see what the organizers tell me, and what Richard and Sander have to say about the idea. Also please remember that other than sitting on a stall at freshers' fair when i was president of the university philosophy society persuading students to sign up, i have no training or experience in advertising or markiting whatsoever. The booth would just be me, --- -and anyone else who came, with a laptop, two sets of headphones, and my double sterrio headphone jack. How successful I'd be in promotion, --- -I honestly have no idea. I certainly wouldn't have to tell any fibs about game quality, but whether I'd be persuasive enough to be any good I really can't say. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
That would indeed be a good idea, especially if we could contrive some kind of promotional cd with various game trailers on./ in general a sort of intro to audio games promo cd would probably help, sinse such a cd could be sent with information to various oraganizations, schools etc, as well as being handed out at shows like sight village and similar. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, I do see your point. Although, perhaps we could prepare some audio trailers of different games to let people here some of the more complex games being played in action. Just a few short clips of what they could get into if they were to play this or that game. dark wrote: It is a miner problem Tom. I could partially get around it by using two sets of sterrio headphones and demoing myself for a bit then giving instructions to the person trying the game, --- -but sinse I was thinking of this as a hay look, --- -here are audio games, --- aren't they cool! I'd rather have something which grabbed people's attention quickly with not much effort than something which was long and complex, sort of the audio game version of a big flashy intro on a graphical game promotion at E3 or a similar computer game show. That's why the games I initially thought of, a wide enough variety to show the people there were different genres (afterall, if I get someone who's not an action fan, it'd be bad if I couldn't show an alternative), were games which it is comparatively easy to show quickkly. even smugglers 4, it's just a matter of etelling a person to click on panets to fly around, then click on fire to shoot at an enemy ship when getting into a fight, all very stant sinse there are no keys to deal with or sounds to learn. Of course, if I was specifically commitioned to demo certain games i would try m best to demo them, but this is one reason I wanted a specific booth for audiogames.net, to represent the audio game playing interest in general, rather than any one games company in particular, to show people that there are many games which appeal to different tastes and needs, and that such games are fun, and not overwhlemingly difficulty to play and understand, especially for people who may be less computer savy! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Darren, That's all too true. I have talked to some agencies locally about perhaps promoting my games and they basically said no for that exact reason. A lot of these local dealers who sell computers with Jaws, Openbook, etc to BSVI have no interest in promoting my games, because they only deal with accessible software for work and professional use of the computer. Therefore games and other products for entertainment should be gotten elsewhere. I guess I can understand that, but I've met a few totally blind computer users that feel the same way. I'm not sure why, but I remember this one person, perhaps 40 or so, telling me that the computer was to be used for work not play. He felt the computer should be used as a tool not a toy, or something to that effect. I couldn't get his logic why he felt the computer couldn't be both a work tool and as an entertainment system as well. Whatever the case we do have that sort of attitude to deal with because it certainly isn't helpful in promoting games for the blind. Darren Harris wrote: Hi thomas, Absolutely true. Also the thing with these types of conventions, is that the focus is totally on work and professional uses of the computer. They don't seem to hold the attitude that blind people would want to play games and that's from within our own community! Indeed I've even herd of cases where gaming in the blind community is looked down upon can you believe that? So for various reasons this does need to get out. Sad but true. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Thomas, That is the comment we got at the blind conventions. Computers are for Jobs and not for Play! They told us that they preferred to read a book or listen to the radio if they wanted entertainment. It is like someone asked them to try eating some frozen cow's milk mixed with vegetable seeds and they didn't like the concept so did not try the chocolate ice cream. Or maybe they were afraid they would like the games so much they would be addicted to them and not want to do work. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Darren, That's all too true. I have talked to some agencies locally about perhaps promoting my games and they basically said no for that exact reason. A lot of these local dealers who sell computers with Jaws, Openbook, etc to BSVI have no interest in promoting my games, because they only deal with accessible software for work and professional use of the computer. Therefore games and other products for entertainment should be gotten elsewhere. I guess I can understand that, but I've met a few totally blind computer users that feel the same way. I'm not sure why, but I remember this one person, perhaps 40 or so, telling me that the computer was to be used for work not play. He felt the computer should be used as a tool not a toy, or something to that effect. I couldn't get his logic why he felt the computer couldn't be both a work tool and as an entertainment system as well. Whatever the case we do have that sort of attitude to deal with because it certainly isn't helpful in promoting games for the blind. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Yeah I don't really get that myself if I'm honest. I consider that to be quite a limiting mentality myself. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 02 December 2009 18:49 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Darren, That's all too true. I have talked to some agencies locally about perhaps promoting my games and they basically said no for that exact reason. A lot of these local dealers who sell computers with Jaws, Openbook, etc to BSVI have no interest in promoting my games, because they only deal with accessible software for work and professional use of the computer. Therefore games and other products for entertainment should be gotten elsewhere. I guess I can understand that, but I've met a few totally blind computer users that feel the same way. I'm not sure why, but I remember this one person, perhaps 40 or so, telling me that the computer was to be used for work not play. He felt the computer should be used as a tool not a toy, or something to that effect. I couldn't get his logic why he felt the computer couldn't be both a work tool and as an entertainment system as well. Whatever the case we do have that sort of attitude to deal with because it certainly isn't helpful in promoting games for the blind. Darren Harris wrote: Hi thomas, Absolutely true. Also the thing with these types of conventions, is that the focus is totally on work and professional uses of the computer. They don't seem to hold the attitude that blind people would want to play games and that's from within our own community! Indeed I've even herd of cases where gaming in the blind community is looked down upon can you believe that? So for various reasons this does need to get out. Sad but true. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/02/09 07:33:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/02/09 07:33:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Yeah because of course blind people aren't allowed to enjoy themselves are they lol. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: 02 December 2009 19:19 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Thomas, That is the comment we got at the blind conventions. Computers are for Jobs and not for Play! They told us that they preferred to read a book or listen to the radio if they wanted entertainment. It is like someone asked them to try eating some frozen cow's milk mixed with vegetable seeds and they didn't like the concept so did not try the chocolate ice cream. Or maybe they were afraid they would like the games so much they would be addicted to them and not want to do work. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Darren, That's all too true. I have talked to some agencies locally about perhaps promoting my games and they basically said no for that exact reason. A lot of these local dealers who sell computers with Jaws, Openbook, etc to BSVI have no interest in promoting my games, because they only deal with accessible software for work and professional use of the computer. Therefore games and other products for entertainment should be gotten elsewhere. I guess I can understand that, but I've met a few totally blind computer users that feel the same way. I'm not sure why, but I remember this one person, perhaps 40 or so, telling me that the computer was to be used for work not play. He felt the computer should be used as a tool not a toy, or something to that effect. I couldn't get his logic why he felt the computer couldn't be both a work tool and as an entertainment system as well. Whatever the case we do have that sort of attitude to deal with because it certainly isn't helpful in promoting games for the blind. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/02/09 07:33:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/02/09 07:33:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Tom. Well on a financial or charitable footing I can understand that a litle. I myself have an equipment grant to pay for university gear to help me in my studdies. It would however be just plane wrong of me to use it to further my entertainment desires. So, when the grant was used to apay for a digital recorder for me, i took the price of a mono model, and added on the extra difference from my own private funds to pay for the ederol r09 with it's sterrio mikes so I could do game reviews etc. That being said though, while my grant will pay for Hal upgrades in order that I am able to write and do research, this is no reason for me not to use Hal to do fun things in my own time like play core exiles. It's afterall not costing extra money on my grat for me to do so at all, so long as I keep using Hal to work as well. For the computer or Hal in general though, if your personally paying for it privately, it's frankly nobody else's business what you do with it but your own, and as I said, not to take advantage of all aspects would be very wrong imho. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hello, The belief of some the blindness orgs seems to be that the only way to make blindness respectable is if blind people are seen as always working. This ignores social connections and the fact that if one is able to relax better, one can work better. I remember my first job in a mid-sized office. I was the most efficient worker there. After a few months, my supervisor took me aside and told me to become a little more sociable with the rest of the staff. I could not understand what her problem was until I returned to school. During one of my HR management courses, I learned about how the over-achievers can be as much of a problem on office moralle and good office functioning as under-achievers. All of the blindness training which focuses on work to the exclusion of everything else ignores this, and thereby performs a disservice to blind people. David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA Phil Vlasak wrote: Hi Thomas, That is the comment we got at the blind conventions. Computers are for Jobs and not for Play! They told us that they preferred to read a book or listen to the radio if they wanted entertainment. It is like someone asked them to try eating some frozen cow's milk mixed with vegetable seeds and they didn't like the concept so did not try the chocolate ice cream. Or maybe they were afraid they would like the games so much they would be addicted to them and not want to do work. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Darren, That's all too true. I have talked to some agencies locally about perhaps promoting my games and they basically said no for that exact reason. A lot of these local dealers who sell computers with Jaws, Openbook, etc to BSVI have no interest in promoting my games, because they only deal with accessible software for work and professional use of the computer. Therefore games and other products for entertainment should be gotten elsewhere. I guess I can understand that, but I've met a few totally blind computer users that feel the same way. I'm not sure why, but I remember this one person, perhaps 40 or so, telling me that the computer was to be used for work not play. He felt the computer should be used as a tool not a toy, or something to that effect. I couldn't get his logic why he felt the computer couldn't be both a work tool and as an entertainment system as well. Whatever the case we do have that sort of attitude to deal with because it certainly isn't helpful in promoting games for the blind. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
I admit I'm a litle jaded on the work subject, sinse I've seen too many cases of blind people who have nothing but a high education, no social abilities, and just endlessly apply for jobs to be given excuses. Sinse employers cannot legally say we're worried about employing a visually impared person this also means they just kmake up excuses. My brother sent out 100 cvs a month for 8 years, trying to get a job in law, and was told wonderful things like your not qualified for this position when the position in question asked for two A-levels, --- ie, a basic ending of school qualification, where he was applying with a law degree and a legal practice course. Before this turns into too much of a wrant I'll stop, suffice it to say while I understand the work ethic atitude, it's one which strikes me as incredibly pointless in a country where eighty percent of blind people are unemployed, - and I'd be willing to bet that probably 15 of the last 20 percent are employed by organizations specifically geared towards blind people like the rnib. Luckily, I don't care about being employed, i JUST WANT TO WRITE! IF SOMEONE WILL PAY ME FOR THAT, GREAT! IF NOT, WELL NEVER MIND. i FREELY ADMIT i'M NOT IN ANY WAY AMBICIOUS THOUGH. bEWARE THE GRUE! dARK. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, Well, I guess the main reason would be that there are a number of blind conferences of one kind or another throughout the year like ACB, NFB, Closing the Gap, etc so there are plenty of them, but it just so happens they are in places too far for me to travel to very easily. There are a number of Linux accessibility conferences out there I'd love to go to, as well but they usually get scheduled for a place like Los Angeles which is on the other side of the country. Obviously, a couple thousand miles is a bit far to go to see what new adaptive technologies are about to be released. dark wrote: Hmmm Tom, the question does occur to me why the organizers of the closing the gap conference don't just organize more events. there is a sight village in scotland which indeed would be an hour by train from Durham, one in bermingham which would be about four hours (though sinse my parents live in Nottingham which is much closer I'd just go and visit them on the way), and one in London which I could get to in about 3 hours, though mostly because there is a train streight there. New for this year, They're also runing a sight village exhibition in county Cork in the republic of Ireland. This would be a good deal harder for me to get too, and would require a flight and overnight accommodation much as you describe, - but when shows are run in much more convenient locales, well missing Ireland is something I could live with indeed. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Phil, That is a pretty disheartening state of affairs if you put all that time and money into marketing and get such a lukewarm response for your troubles. It would be interesting to know how well James North did with his booths, or if he had the same problem you did. Phil Vlasak wrote: Hi Dark, I have some experience trying to interest blind people about audio games at blind conventions. In July 1999, Carl and I traveled to the ACB convention in Los Angeles promoting our Pacman, Space Invaders and six other games that were self voicing. We did the same at the NFB convention in Atlanta in July 2000. In both conventions, our costs were much greater than our game sales. We had three computers at the booth, one for doing sales, one with speakers blasting the games and one with two headphones so people could try the games out before buying them. We also had 100 promotional CD's with all our demos on them for people to take with them. They came with a discount card in large print and Braille. As for playing the games, we had several running on the computer but all paused so we could switch from one to another quickly. We decided to stop going as the months of preparation and expense of the convention meant less time and money to develop new games. I do know that what is now All In Play and James North's ESP Softworks had booths at the conventions back then. One suggestion for demonstrating games would be to make a audio play list of game reviews and previews in mp3 format. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Sighted people have games on their computers, and those games are played. That's why gaming is such a big industry. For the sighted computer user, a computer is not a work only device. Why on earth should this not be so for the blind computer user? Windows comes with free games, even. Isn't this a clue for agencies who buy computers for blind people? Duh?? --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Darren, That's all too true. I have talked to some agencies locally about perhaps promoting my games and they basically said no for that exact reason. A lot of these local dealers who sell computers with Jaws, Openbook, etc to BSVI have no interest in promoting my games, because they only deal with accessible software for work and professional use of the computer. Therefore games and other products for entertainment should be gotten elsewhere. I guess I can understand that, but I've met a few totally blind computer users that feel the same way. I'm not sure why, but I remember this one person, perhaps 40 or so, telling me that the computer was to be used for work not play. He felt the computer should be used as a tool not a toy, or something to that effect. I couldn't get his logic why he felt the computer couldn't be both a work tool and as an entertainment system as well. Whatever the case we do have that sort of attitude to deal with because it certainly isn't helpful in promoting games for the blind. Darren Harris wrote: Hi thomas, Absolutely true. Also the thing with these types of conventions, is that the focus is totally on work and professional uses of the computer. They don't seem to hold the attitude that blind people would want to play games and that's from within our own community! Indeed I've even herd of cases where gaming in the blind community is looked down upon can you believe that? So for various reasons this does need to get out. Sad but true. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
HI Tom and all Sorry, I came into this thread rather late. I just want to say that I am planning to arrange with a south African radio station, rsg, to do a show on accessible games.] If willem and Jacob listens to rsg, they will probably remember 5leefwêreld van die gestremdes In English, living world of the disabled held on Sunday afternoons. It would rock if I can do a show on there about accessible games. And I will definitely talk about some awesome developers such as tom and phil and philip. Then blind people and also sighted people in the whole of south Africa who listens to rsg, will be made aware about accessible games. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 02 December 2009 06:26 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Well, at this point I'm not sure how much actual advertising we need. I think the big picture, as has been said before, is to get the word out that good high quality games exist. By showing off game x and letting a few blind people try them, perhaps let their friends and family see them, etc it might make a difference in letting people know that this stuff exists and it doesn't need to remain in the backwater of the galaxy forever. It is time we make ourselves known to more and more people, agencies for the blind, and break out of this apathetic rut we have fallen into. Please Note: This email and its contents are subject to our email legal notice which can be viewed at http://www.sars.gov.za/Email_Disclaimer.pdf --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, I think if you could pull that off that would be a great idea. We have something similar here in the states called Closing the Gap, but it would be way to expensive to actually go there and setup a booth. That would be a great place to introduce lots of several accessible games, but since USA Games, GMA, and the rest of us aren't actual corporations making lots of money we can't just go there every year and setup a booth like GW Micro, Freedom Scientific, Humanware, and the rest of the big name companies do. We would need a lot more time and funding to pull something like that off. Plus we would have to have some form of demo cds to hand out to techs and other interested parties with a fairly decent collection of games for them to hand out to their clients and friends. That is another added expense and consequence of trying to let them have something to take home with them. dark wrote: Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, Well, if you could get a ball park figure of what it would cost to send you to Sight Village, to get a booth, etc that would be a good start. if need be perhaps we could organize a number of accessible game developers and each pay a certain amount to sponser you. By sponsering you in turn you would show off our games to the public. That is pretty much how traditional advertising works anyway. dark wrote: Thanks darren. I think audiogames.net in this case would mean me, and Cx2, the other English mod, if he wished, and was able to come. I will investigate the possibility though. For a start, I don't know if there is a charge, and if there is, whether the game accessibility group would be willing or not to pay it just to have me sit on my bumb and tell members of the British public how great accessible games are for a day or two. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Darren, That's my thought as well. If certain developers sponsor Dark's trip to sight village then it also gives him a focus what games to demo. If GMA helps sponsor Dark then they get some demonstration time. If Draconis does some Sponsoring then they get some demonstration time as well. If I help sponsor him then something like Mysteries of the Ancients should get some demonstration time too. If a developer doesn't sponsor his trip then maybe they shouldn't get as much demonstration time. It is afair and straight forward system as far as I see it. Darren Harris wrote: Yeah there's a charge. And maybe if this is advertising for accessible games which will put money in the developers pockets then why can't they collectively put up some money for you? I mean after all it's not going to benefit audiogames.net to do this. Not financially so there either has to be an insentive for doing it or some of the cost has to be covered. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Scott, Yes, I do believe Agrip did go to Sight Village at least once. That would have been before Michael's accident so would have been quite a while ago, and Audio Quake would not have been as far along then as it is now. Scott Chesworth wrote: Hey Dark, Didn't Agrip do a trip to Sight Village once? I didn't go that year, just vaguely remember them being at some exhibition somewhere and it seemed to ring a bell. Anyway main reason for the post was just to add a bit of support to the idea. As far as I know the cost varies depending on how much advertising you want in the promo bumph, though I've no idea what the base rate or conditions that allow someone to exhibit are. Keep us updated though, I'd certainly drop by the stall for a bit of a game-off, it'd make a nice change from doing the rounds and hanging my head at some of the pricing and lack of inovation that's generally on offer. I should imagine between you and CX2 you'll have this covered if it comes to anything, but in case you need a London contingent with plenty of experience of presenting things in a this is easy and fun way then feel free to give me a shout... I'd be only too happy to help if I can. Scott --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Completely agree. Because no offence meant whilst it's really good to get the word out at the end of the day potentially it's still going to be money in the pockets of the developers. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 01 December 2009 19:31 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Darren, That's my thought as well. If certain developers sponsor Dark's trip to sight village then it also gives him a focus what games to demo. If GMA helps sponsor Dark then they get some demonstration time. If Draconis does some Sponsoring then they get some demonstration time as well. If I help sponsor him then something like Mysteries of the Ancients should get some demonstration time too. If a developer doesn't sponsor his trip then maybe they shouldn't get as much demonstration time. It is afair and straight forward system as far as I see it. Darren Harris wrote: Yeah there's a charge. And maybe if this is advertising for accessible games which will put money in the developers pockets then why can't they collectively put up some money for you? I mean after all it's not going to benefit audiogames.net to do this. Not financially so there either has to be an insentive for doing it or some of the cost has to be covered. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 07:59:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 07:59:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, Hmmm...That's a good point. Something like Shades of Doom, Sarah, and even Mysteries of the Ancients isn't something you can get the hang of in a short one to five minute preview. At least not like with Q9 that is so simple you can practically pick it up and play it without the manual. Troopenum, Judgment Day, etc are also simple games you could show off that don't take much practice or studying to master. dark wrote: Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically chatting to people as they passed, intermitantly giving them quick goes on a game or two, then (hopefully), telling them to move along because someone else wanted a turn! Btw, on the british voice acting front, if your stil in the business of adding to sarah, --- I've now got an R09 recorder some stage experience, and would be glad to give you a voice or two myself, just let me know who you might need. Beware thee grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi, No but at least by showing said games off you're showing the capabilities that are on offer with an audio game. You're proving that it's not just a series of beeps and that's it. There's a whole lot more to it basically and that's what we really need to get out or otherwise there isn't really going to be that much interest generated. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 01 December 2009 19:43 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Hmmm...That's a good point. Something like Shades of Doom, Sarah, and even Mysteries of the Ancients isn't something you can get the hang of in a short one to five minute preview. At least not like with Q9 that is so simple you can practically pick it up and play it without the manual. Troopenum, Judgment Day, etc are also simple games you could show off that don't take much practice or studying to master. dark wrote: Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically chatting to people as they passed, intermitantly giving them quick goes on a game or two, then (hopefully), telling them to move along because someone else wanted a turn! Btw, on the british voice acting front, if your stil in the business of adding to sarah, --- I've now got an R09 recorder some stage experience, and would be glad to give you a voice or two myself, just let me know who you might need. Beware thee grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 07:59:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 07:59:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, As I believe Michael's accident happened in 2006 he would have been there at Sight Village on behalf of Agrip around 2004 or 2005. Just prier to your discovery of Audessy.org, audiogames.net, and all the rest of us out here on the net. dark wrote: Hi Scot. Well I'm not sure, everything's stil in the possibly crazy idea stage at the moment, and I haven't even spoken to Cx2, or richard or Sander, sinse I'd like to know the facts from the organizers themselves first. Once I know what's going on, having an extra person on hand may be helpful, but again, we'll have to see. If the charge is based on leaflet space, again, I'm not sure how that will work, sinse while on the one hand we want to advertise, on the other, it's not quite as important that we give people huge amounts of promotional info to take away (just a note on www.audiogames.net and the existance of games would do), it's really just the general visibility factor which I think would be most helpful. Again though, I'll wait to see what the site village organizers have to say. I've never personally seen agrip there, but then again I've only known about audiogames from 2006 onwards, --- so it's possible they were there earlier on and I missed them. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Darren, That's quite true. Games like Tank Commander, Shades of Doom, Sarah, and Mysteries of the Ancients are beginning to catch up with there mainstream counter parts, and just getting the message out there that we can play rather sifisticated games should be the over all message. I know when I first lost my vision and I could no longer play Jedi Knight, Tomb Raider, Soldier of Fortune, and other games that were out in the 90's I didn't realy know what was available for me as a blind gamer. For a long while all I knew about was interactive fiction text games I found on the net, wrote afew text games on my own, and I had heard about Jim Kitchen's free games through a friend. I thought that was all there was until i found Audyssey around 2000, and found out there was GMA, ESP, and various other accessible game developers out there. I was very quite surprised and delited when I found out GMA was developing a clone of doom, which was in beta when I discovered them, because I believed I was the first person to think up the idea of eventually creating a FPS game after college. Anyway, getting the word out that such games do exist would make a lot of young blind gamershappy if they could hear about it. So many of them like me wanted to play Doom, Resident Evil, or whatever their friends are playing, and can't because the mainstream titles aren't accessible. The fact such games do exist and are beginning to be developed now should be gotten to them when and where we can. Darren Harris wrote: Hi, No but at least by showing said games off you're showing the capabilities that are on offer with an audio game. You're proving that it's not just a series of beeps and that's it. There's a whole lot more to it basically and that's what we really need to get out or otherwise there isn't really going to be that much interest generated. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi. Well we'll see. On the one hand, sight village sounds a litle more accessible to the general public than the Us version, sinse demo cd's and such aren't expected at all, and there are a lot of one man shows there as well as the big names like dolphin or gw micro. Charity organizations also have booths too, ---the rnib, as well as far smaller groups like calibre tape library (a small charity run, but very decent audio books service I'm a big fan of), and action for blind people, who provide various services and indeed were kind enough to run the audio games pole last year on their sit. It's very much in the lite of a promotional charity service that I'm presenting the game accessiblity group and audiogames.net. Afterall, while Cx2 and I do completely enjoy writing crazy news and getting to play and write about lots of games for the database, it's in the end something we do voluntarily in our spare time (though as a lazy bumb of a student I have plenty of spare time of course ;D). likewise, nobody pays Richard and Sander to maintain the site, code the scripts that keep the database running, or post news of their own, and the work they do talking to companies and students about game access is certainly very much off their own bat. I'll therefore be rather sad if they decide to ask too much of a giant charge for this, - but as they haven't yet got back to me, I'll have to wait and see. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, I think if you could pull that off that would be a great idea. We have something similar here in the states called Closing the Gap, but it would be way to expensive to actually go there and setup a booth. That would be a great place to introduce lots of several accessible games, but since USA Games, GMA, and the rest of us aren't actual corporations making lots of money we can't just go there every year and setup a booth like GW Micro, Freedom Scientific, Humanware, and the rest of the big name companies do. We would need a lot more time and funding to pull something like that off. Plus we would have to have some form of demo cds to hand out to techs and other interested parties with a fairly decent collection of games for them to hand out to their clients and friends. That is another added expense and consequence of trying to let them have something to take home with them. dark wrote: Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, Well, the primary financial issue with Closing the Gap is travel expenses plus room and board for the time it is going on. Unlike you, who can get to Sight Village within a hour by train, I'd have to book a flight to go there and back. Plus pay for food, a hotel room, and any other expenses involved with traveling out of state for a large convention like Closing the Gap. That's why even though we have such a big national conference like Closing the Gap only people who can afford it ever go. It is just too far for the average person to travel to on a slim budget. There are definitely disadvantages to living in a country as big as the United States. dark wrote: Hi. Well we'll see. On the one hand, sight village sounds a litle more accessible to the general public than the Us version, sinse demo cd's and such aren't expected at all, and there are a lot of one man shows there as well as the big names like dolphin or gw micro. Charity organizations also have booths too, ---the rnib, as well as far smaller groups like calibre tape library (a small charity run, but very decent audio books service I'm a big fan of), and action for blind people, who provide various services and indeed were kind enough to run the audio games pole last year on their sit. It's very much in the lite of a promotional charity service that I'm presenting the game accessiblity group and audiogames.net. Afterall, while Cx2 and I do completely enjoy writing crazy news and getting to play and write about lots of games for the database, it's in the end something we do voluntarily in our spare time (though as a lazy bumb of a student I have plenty of spare time of course ;D). likewise, nobody pays Richard and Sander to maintain the site, code the scripts that keep the database running, or post news of their own, and the work they do talking to companies and students about game access is certainly very much off their own bat. I'll therefore be rather sad if they decide to ask too much of a giant charge for this, - but as they haven't yet got back to me, I'll have to wait and see. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
It is a miner problem Tom. I could partially get around it by using two sets of sterrio headphones and demoing myself for a bit then giving instructions to the person trying the game, --- -but sinse I was thinking of this as a hay look, --- -here are audio games, --- aren't they cool! I'd rather have something which grabbed people's attention quickly with not much effort than something which was long and complex, sort of the audio game version of a big flashy intro on a graphical game promotion at E3 or a similar computer game show. That's why the games I initially thought of, a wide enough variety to show the people there were different genres (afterall, if I get someone who's not an action fan, it'd be bad if I couldn't show an alternative), were games which it is comparatively easy to show quickkly. even smugglers 4, it's just a matter of etelling a person to click on panets to fly around, then click on fire to shoot at an enemy ship when getting into a fight, all very stant sinse there are no keys to deal with or sounds to learn. Of course, if I was specifically commitioned to demo certain games i would try m best to demo them, but this is one reason I wanted a specific booth for audiogames.net, to represent the audio game playing interest in general, rather than any one games company in particular, to show people that there are many games which appeal to different tastes and needs, and that such games are fun, and not overwhlemingly difficulty to play and understand, especially for people who may be less computer savy! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Hmmm...That's a good point. Something like Shades of Doom, Sarah, and even Mysteries of the Ancients isn't something you can get the hang of in a short one to five minute preview. At least not like with Q9 that is so simple you can practically pick it up and play it without the manual. Troopenum, Judgment Day, etc are also simple games you could show off that don't take much practice or studying to master. dark wrote: Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically chatting to people as they passed, intermitantly giving them quick goes on a game or two, then (hopefully), telling them to move along because someone else wanted a turn! Btw, on the british voice acting front, if your stil in the business of adding to sarah, --- I've now got an R09 recorder some stage experience, and would be glad to give you a voice or two myself, just let me know who you might need. Beware thee grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
That is true Darren, and that is one reason it coccurred to me to show entombed, which is a complex game, but one with comparatively easy keys, and judgement day, which is a simple game, but with great sound and many interesting features which I could quickly mention. To represent the arcade genre i thought Q9, which, while a symple and easy game, is well enough put together, and contains interesting and dramatic enough sounds to catch people's attention. esp pinball xtreme might be another good example here too. For people who like more traditional games, I thought Che martin's card games would be good to show, sinse I can tell people the joys of playing against opponents from many different countries, and the tournaments Che runs. beware the gruie! Dark - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi, No but at least by showing said games off you're showing the capabilities that are on offer with an audio game. You're proving that it's not just a series of beeps and that's it. There's a whole lot more to it basically and that's what we really need to get out or otherwise there isn't really going to be that much interest generated. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 01 December 2009 19:43 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Hmmm...That's a good point. Something like Shades of Doom, Sarah, and even Mysteries of the Ancients isn't something you can get the hang of in a short one to five minute preview. At least not like with Q9 that is so simple you can practically pick it up and play it without the manual. Troopenum, Judgment Day, etc are also simple games you could show off that don't take much practice or studying to master. dark wrote: Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically chatting to people as they passed, intermitantly giving them quick goes on a game or two, then (hopefully), telling them to move along because someone else wanted a turn! Btw, on the british voice acting front, if your stil in the business of adding to sarah, --- I've now got an R09 recorder some stage experience, and would be glad to give you a voice or two myself, just let me know who you might need. Beware thee grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 07:59:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.88/2538 - Release Date: 12/01/09 07:59:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
That's an interesting idea Tom, but I'll wait and see what the organizers tell me, and what Richard and Sander have to say about the idea. Also please remember that other than sitting on a stall at freshers' fair when i was president of the university philosophy society persuading students to sign up, i have no training or experience in advertising or markiting whatsoever. The booth would just be me, --- -and anyone else who came, with a laptop, two sets of headphones, and my double sterrio headphone jack. How successful I'd be in promotion, --- -I honestly have no idea. I certainly wouldn't have to tell any fibs about game quality, but whether I'd be persuasive enough to be any good I really can't say. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Well, if you could get a ball park figure of what it would cost to send you to Sight Village, to get a booth, etc that would be a good start. if need be perhaps we could organize a number of accessible game developers and each pay a certain amount to sponser you. By sponsering you in turn you would show off our games to the public. That is pretty much how traditional advertising works anyway. dark wrote: Thanks darren. I think audiogames.net in this case would mean me, and Cx2, the other English mod, if he wished, and was able to come. I will investigate the possibility though. For a start, I don't know if there is a charge, and if there is, whether the game accessibility group would be willing or not to pay it just to have me sit on my bumb and tell members of the British public how great accessible games are for a day or two. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hmmm Tom, the question does occur to me why the organizers of the closing the gap conference don't just organize more events. there is a sight village in scotland which indeed would be an hour by train from Durham, one in bermingham which would be about four hours (though sinse my parents live in Nottingham which is much closer I'd just go and visit them on the way), and one in London which I could get to in about 3 hours, though mostly because there is a train streight there. New for this year, They're also runing a sight village exhibition in county Cork in the republic of Ireland. This would be a good deal harder for me to get too, and would require a flight and overnight accommodation much as you describe, - but when shows are run in much more convenient locales, well missing Ireland is something I could live with indeed. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, I have some experience trying to interest blind people about audio games at blind conventions. In July 1999, Carl and I traveled to the ACB convention in Los Angeles promoting our Pacman, Space Invaders and six other games that were self voicing. We did the same at the NFB convention in Atlanta in July 2000. In both conventions, our costs were much greater than our game sales. We had three computers at the booth, one for doing sales, one with speakers blasting the games and one with two headphones so people could try the games out before buying them. We also had 100 promotional CD's with all our demos on them for people to take with them. They came with a discount card in large print and Braille. As for playing the games, we had several running on the computer but all paused so we could switch from one to another quickly. We decided to stop going as the months of preparation and expense of the convention meant less time and money to develop new games. I do know that what is now All In Play and James North's ESP Softworks had booths at the conventions back then. One suggestion for demonstrating games would be to make a audio play list of game reviews and previews in mp3 format. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
I would think that, to grab attention, headsets should not be used. Games should be played by people, and speakers should be used so that people nearby would be attracted by the sounds of the games. If blind people are within hearing range of the speakers, they will be attracted by the game sounds. Headsets won't do that. --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games It is a miner problem Tom. I could partially get around it by using two sets of sterrio headphones and demoing myself for a bit then giving instructions to the person trying the game, --- -but sinse I was thinking of this as a hay look, --- -here are audio games, --- aren't they cool! I'd rather have something which grabbed people's attention quickly with not much effort than something which was long and complex, sort of the audio game version of a big flashy intro on a graphical game promotion at E3 or a similar computer game show. That's why the games I initially thought of, a wide enough variety to show the people there were different genres (afterall, if I get someone who's not an action fan, it'd be bad if I couldn't show an alternative), were games which it is comparatively easy to show quickkly. even smugglers 4, it's just a matter of etelling a person to click on panets to fly around, then click on fire to shoot at an enemy ship when getting into a fight, all very stant sinse there are no keys to deal with or sounds to learn. Of course, if I was specifically commitioned to demo certain games i would try m best to demo them, but this is one reason I wanted a specific booth for audiogames.net, to represent the audio game playing interest in general, rather than any one games company in particular, to show people that there are many games which appeal to different tastes and needs, and that such games are fun, and not overwhlemingly difficulty to play and understand, especially for people who may be less computer savy! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Hmmm...That's a good point. Something like Shades of Doom, Sarah, and even Mysteries of the Ancients isn't something you can get the hang of in a short one to five minute preview. At least not like with Q9 that is so simple you can practically pick it up and play it without the manual. Troopenum, Judgment Day, etc are also simple games you could show off that don't take much practice or studying to master. dark wrote: Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically chatting to people as they passed, intermitantly giving them quick goes on a game or two, then (hopefully), telling them to move along because someone else wanted a turn! Btw, on the british voice acting front, if your stil in the business of adding to sarah, --- I've now got an R09 recorder some stage experience, and would be glad to give you a voice or two myself, just let me know who you might need. Beware thee grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Interesting Phil. Maybe if this does happen, people could assist me in the creation of promotional cd's with audio trailers of a number of games to give to people. As far as expense and everything else goes, well again I can't really say much until the convention organizers get back to me. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, I have some experience trying to interest blind people about audio games at blind conventions. In July 1999, Carl and I traveled to the ACB convention in Los Angeles promoting our Pacman, Space Invaders and six other games that were self voicing. We did the same at the NFB convention in Atlanta in July 2000. In both conventions, our costs were much greater than our game sales. We had three computers at the booth, one for doing sales, one with speakers blasting the games and one with two headphones so people could try the games out before buying them. We also had 100 promotional CD's with all our demos on them for people to take with them. They came with a discount card in large print and Braille. As for playing the games, we had several running on the computer but all paused so we could switch from one to another quickly. We decided to stop going as the months of preparation and expense of the convention meant less time and money to develop new games. I do know that what is now All In Play and James North's ESP Softworks had booths at the conventions back then. One suggestion for demonstrating games would be to make a audio play list of game reviews and previews in mp3 format. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Well, the idea was based on two thoughts. Firstly, laptop speakers aren't exactly great either for pumping out sound, and secondly people would want to play the games easily. I myself find playing sterrio games extremely hard on anything but a set of headphones. It's possible (if I had some decent speakers), I could pum game previews and demos out through my laptop to attract people, but when it came to having them actually physically play the games, headphones would be a better option. Also, at sight village, every other stand which employs audio, such as dolphin, and people demonstrating scanners and the like uses headphones too, I don't think I'd be popular if I was pumping audio games out at max volume! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games I would think that, to grab attention, headsets should not be used. Games should be played by people, and speakers should be used so that people nearby would be attracted by the sounds of the games. If blind people are within hearing range of the speakers, they will be attracted by the game sounds. Headsets won't do that. --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games It is a miner problem Tom. I could partially get around it by using two sets of sterrio headphones and demoing myself for a bit then giving instructions to the person trying the game, --- -but sinse I was thinking of this as a hay look, --- -here are audio games, --- aren't they cool! I'd rather have something which grabbed people's attention quickly with not much effort than something which was long and complex, sort of the audio game version of a big flashy intro on a graphical game promotion at E3 or a similar computer game show. That's why the games I initially thought of, a wide enough variety to show the people there were different genres (afterall, if I get someone who's not an action fan, it'd be bad if I couldn't show an alternative), were games which it is comparatively easy to show quickkly. even smugglers 4, it's just a matter of etelling a person to click on panets to fly around, then click on fire to shoot at an enemy ship when getting into a fight, all very stant sinse there are no keys to deal with or sounds to learn. Of course, if I was specifically commitioned to demo certain games i would try m best to demo them, but this is one reason I wanted a specific booth for audiogames.net, to represent the audio game playing interest in general, rather than any one games company in particular, to show people that there are many games which appeal to different tastes and needs, and that such games are fun, and not overwhlemingly difficulty to play and understand, especially for people who may be less computer savy! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, Hmmm...That's a good point. Something like Shades of Doom, Sarah, and even Mysteries of the Ancients isn't something you can get the hang of in a short one to five minute preview. At least not like with Q9 that is so simple you can practically pick it up and play it without the manual. Troopenum, Judgment Day, etc are also simple games you could show off that don't take much practice or studying to master. dark wrote: Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically
[Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi, This is a brilliant idea. The problem is that there's no real form of advertising for these games and some of them are absolutely fantastic and a ton of work goes into these games. If audiogames.net did go and represent the gaming community then that would be a helpful boost I'm sure. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 30 November 2009 17:23 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 11/30/09 07:31:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 11/30/09 07:31:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Thanks darren. I think audiogames.net in this case would mean me, and Cx2, the other English mod, if he wished, and was able to come. I will investigate the possibility though. For a start, I don't know if there is a charge, and if there is, whether the game accessibility group would be willing or not to pay it just to have me sit on my bumb and tell members of the British public how great accessible games are for a day or two. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi, This is a brilliant idea. The problem is that there's no real form of advertising for these games and some of them are absolutely fantastic and a ton of work goes into these games. If audiogames.net did go and represent the gaming community then that would be a helpful boost I'm sure. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 30 November 2009 17:23 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 11/30/09 07:31:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 11/30/09 07:31:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Yeah there's a charge. And maybe if this is advertising for accessible games which will put money in the developers pockets then why can't they collectively put up some money for you? I mean after all it's not going to benefit audiogames.net to do this. Not financially so there either has to be an insentive for doing it or some of the cost has to be covered. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 30 November 2009 17:34 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Thanks darren. I think audiogames.net in this case would mean me, and Cx2, the other English mod, if he wished, and was able to come. I will investigate the possibility though. For a start, I don't know if there is a charge, and if there is, whether the game accessibility group would be willing or not to pay it just to have me sit on my bumb and tell members of the British public how great accessible games are for a day or two. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi, This is a brilliant idea. The problem is that there's no real form of advertising for these games and some of them are absolutely fantastic and a ton of work goes into these games. If audiogames.net did go and represent the gaming community then that would be a helpful boost I'm sure. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 30 November 2009 17:23 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 11/30/09 07:31:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 11/30/09 07:31:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Well, I've checked the site village information. It turns out there's actually an exhibition in edinboughr in march, which is literally only an hour on the train from where I am (though Bermingham isn't impossible sinse my parents live in Nottingham). I've sent as polite an E-mail as I can to the organizers of the exhibition, and i've presented audiogames.net as essentially a charity, sinse afterall nobody pays us, and we do it as a hobby in our spare time, or at least Cx2 and I do. How to cover the charge will be an interesting question, which will depend upon how much the charge is, and whether the gameaccessibility group actually has any cash. While I'm quite prepared to do this, i doubt I'll be able to pay for it myself if the charge is heavy, but we'll just have to see what they say. As to some sort of grant from the collective game devs, the only problem with that would be I can't guarantee to demonstrate anyone in particular's games, sinse I'm there to demonstrate audio games in general, rather than anybody's in particular. I'll probably just ask people what sort of games they might enjoy playing and go from there. Off the top of my head I think Q9, judgement day, a short spat of entombed, maybe a bit of smugglers 4, spoonbill Uno, and possibly (net connection willing), che martin's blackjack and a quick bit of Sryth would be a handy, attractive and varied selection, --- but I'll probably just wing it. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
That sounds like a good idea. I hope it is affordable to do, otherwise I am sure some of us would not mind giving a few bucks to do that. Just some thoughts, al - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, I am surprised you did not think of my Sarah game. You could say it was inspired by the Harry Potter books and games. True the voices are mainly Americans doing British accents, but then when I asked for volunteers to do British voices only Americans got back to me. Maybe you Brits don't like us Americans invading your school of magic! I do use several UK synthesized voices though. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hey Dark, Didn't Agrip do a trip to Sight Village once? I didn't go that year, just vaguely remember them being at some exhibition somewhere and it seemed to ring a bell. Anyway main reason for the post was just to add a bit of support to the idea. As far as I know the cost varies depending on how much advertising you want in the promo bumph, though I've no idea what the base rate or conditions that allow someone to exhibit are. Keep us updated though, I'd certainly drop by the stall for a bit of a game-off, it'd make a nice change from doing the rounds and hanging my head at some of the pricing and lack of inovation that's generally on offer. I should imagine between you and CX2 you'll have this covered if it comes to anything, but in case you need a London contingent with plenty of experience of presenting things in a this is easy and fun way then feel free to give me a shout... I'd be only too happy to help if I can. Scott On 11/30/09, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: That sounds like a good idea. I hope it is affordable to do, otherwise I am sure some of us would not mind giving a few bucks to do that. Just some thoughts, al - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically chatting to people as they passed, intermitantly giving them quick goes on a game or two, then (hopefully), telling them to move along because someone else wanted a turn! Btw, on the british voice acting front, if your stil in the business of adding to sarah, --- I've now got an R09 recorder some stage experience, and would be glad to give you a voice or two myself, just let me know who you might need. Beware thee grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Dark, I am surprised you did not think of my Sarah game. You could say it was inspired by the Harry Potter books and games. True the voices are mainly Americans doing British accents, but then when I asked for volunteers to do British voices only Americans got back to me. Maybe you Brits don't like us Americans invading your school of magic! I do use several UK synthesized voices though. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Scot. Well I'm not sure, everything's stil in the possibly crazy idea stage at the moment, and I haven't even spoken to Cx2, or richard or Sander, sinse I'd like to know the facts from the organizers themselves first. Once I know what's going on, having an extra person on hand may be helpful, but again, we'll have to see. If the charge is based on leaflet space, again, I'm not sure how that will work, sinse while on the one hand we want to advertise, on the other, it's not quite as important that we give people huge amounts of promotional info to take away (just a note on www.audiogames.net and the existance of games would do), it's really just the general visibility factor which I think would be most helpful. Again though, I'll wait to see what the site village organizers have to say. I've never personally seen agrip there, but then again I've only known about audiogames from 2006 onwards, --- so it's possible they were there earlier on and I missed them. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hey Dark, Didn't Agrip do a trip to Sight Village once? I didn't go that year, just vaguely remember them being at some exhibition somewhere and it seemed to ring a bell. Anyway main reason for the post was just to add a bit of support to the idea. As far as I know the cost varies depending on how much advertising you want in the promo bumph, though I've no idea what the base rate or conditions that allow someone to exhibit are. Keep us updated though, I'd certainly drop by the stall for a bit of a game-off, it'd make a nice change from doing the rounds and hanging my head at some of the pricing and lack of inovation that's generally on offer. I should imagine between you and CX2 you'll have this covered if it comes to anything, but in case you need a London contingent with plenty of experience of presenting things in a this is easy and fun way then feel free to give me a shout... I'd be only too happy to help if I can. Scott On 11/30/09, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: That sounds like a good idea. I hope it is affordable to do, otherwise I am sure some of us would not mind giving a few bucks to do that. Just some thoughts, al - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Hello Tom. This is unfortunately true. For the last few years I've gone to sight village each summer. This is basically the uk Vi tech show, where companies, charities and organizations wrent stalls and show off their stuff, while lots of people turn up and look. Not once though have I seen any accessible games mentioned there at all. I believe Azabat had a stall one year, but they certainly don't go frequently, nor is azabat any kind of a good representation of what audio games are like in general. this does give me an idea though. Maybe I should see if I could go to site village as a representative of the gameaccessibility special interest group and audiogames.net, to do a general show off of accessible games. I wouldn't really need any more than my laptop (which has lots of games on it anyway), a plug, and possibly a net connection if i wanted to show off something online like sound rts or Che martin's games, and using a double sterrio jack I could wear one pear of headphones, participants another, and thus I could give instructions. The show is not until next July, --- -but I'm not sure how late you have to book your places, or what you have to pay to the organizers to get a stall. Maybe though I'll research this and suggest the idea to Richard and Sander. While it might not be ideal, it'd certainly be a good way of reaching a lot of Vi people who may or may not have access to the net, and sinse I would be representing audiogames.net, I could show several different types of game depending upon what peoples interest was. hmmm, I'll look in to that one and see where it goes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Dark, I thought a British based game would be of some interest in the UK. For easy demonstrations of the Sarah game, you could, 1, go through the sounds in the game list. 2. go through the spells list and cast one, such as Accio that will get you a broom at the front door. 3. Apparate to the great hall where Peves can steel your stuff! All quick and somewhat exciting things to do quickly. smiles, Phil - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games Yes phil! we don't want any ill mannered yankies in our propper English magic school thank you very much! ;D. being serious now, my one slight issue with sarah as a quick exhibition game is how easy it is to pick up and play without reading the manual or looking at any commands. If I can just tell someone click on a planet to fly there or hit anything nasty you here in the right speaker that is fine, but Sarah has many keys, and many sounds for people to get to grips with at one time. If I got someone who wanted a complex or heavily atmospheric game, I would indeed show them Sarah, --- but that's why it didn't occur to me when I was just randomly off the top of my head thinking of games I could quickly show off to passers by, that's also why I didn't include mota in that list either. That was also in no way intended as an exhaustive list, just some random thoughts on what games I might show people. Bare in mind, Site village is a very crowded affair with literally hundreds of people moving through it. It'd almost be a markit type affair with me sitting on a stall, --- and basically chatting to people as they passed, intermitantly giving them quick goes on a game or two, then (hopefully), telling them to move along because someone else wanted a turn! Btw, on the british voice acting front, if your stil in the business of adding to sarah, --- I've now got an R09 recorder some stage experience, and would be glad to give you a voice or two myself, just let me know who you might need. Beware thee grue! Dark. - Original Me --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Promotion was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Phil. Nice suggestions, mucking about with spells or being got by peeves hadn't actually occurred to me as things I could show in a demo. As for the nationality business, well we get so many american films books and just about everything else over here, nobody would particularly take too much notice of a game being overly american or not unless it required some sort of specific knolidge to play, like Jim's american football or baseball games. Sarah would appeal to people on the basis that it's a complex and detailed adventure game, and one very well researched and based in harry potter, far more than simply the fact it happens to be set in England. While most people in England (even me, a card carrying non sports fan), know how basically how socker works, sports from other countries can be a litle less easily understandable, one reason why I needed the rules of baseball added to Jim's baseball game before I could play it, and one reason I'm stil less than clear on how american football works myself. In fairness, as someone who doesn't particularly take sport seriously, I am probably equally ignorant about Crickit, and in fact find my friend who's a crickit fan equally incomprehensible when he goes into specific crickit lingo, though for general national averages, there are probably more socker and crickit fans in england (socker being particularly popular), than fans of American football, baseball or baskit ball, hence my need to specify which sort of football I'm talking about, sinse generally in the Uk football pretty exclusively means socker. Apart from sports though, I can't really think of anything which wouldn't come across over here simply for not being British, or be better if it was, even wild west is pretty well known about as a genre. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
