John said:
I don't know what is going on. None of my information sources are
reliable. I don't know of any reliable information sources. But I
smell a rat. Something is rotten in Copenhagen.
Taken out of context, it sounds like you are one poor lost soul. ;-)
Here, have some chocolate
On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:41:57 -0600 Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Oh, I forgot to add. If you're interested in what's happened in the
27 years
since the Joseph Smith Papyri: an Egyptian Endowment was published,
try
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LBOA.pdf a piece of scholarship
Why are we (I include myself in that) latter-day saints so reluctant to
get our year's supply of food?
Not JWR. I have seen his stash. He is loaded with grain! When I visited
him in Alaska I told him he may need a gun to protect his stock but he
said he has so much he is willing to feed his
I'll bet they could whip the Mexican army if they were to invade. grin
--JWR
Boy, you are really on a roll these days. grin
I thought I was really bad at kicking the beehive. I guess I've met my
match!
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'll slightly violate a personal (temporary) rule of mine and ask all on
this list who think that Canada needs the US to protect it:
Canada would beg for US assistance if their country was under attack by
aliens from outer space. It could happen.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase
free agency, but rather use moral agency. What the
reason is, I do not know.
Sound like this is political correct stuff that I simply don't care for.
Does this mean they are going to rewrite the records too? I certainly
hope not. I'm
Conference is coming!!
But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God's
Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation
comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way. (Bruce R.
McConkie)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Non-text portions of this
But I
think they could have found better music for it. The tune doesn't
measure to the lyrics.
Of course that is just my opinion, and it is just a matter of
taste.
Is something wrong with me? I really don't care for the music of quite a
few of the LDS hymns. Some of them come off as
I get to give a talk tomorrow on the theme Follow the Prophet, so I am
feeling rather humble today. I even skipped responding to Marc on a
topic,
and actually had kind thoughts toward him.
Sounds like you are becoming a good Christian. ;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
John W. Redelfs wrote:
Sadam doesn't have an ideology. If he does, it is I'm boss, and I'll
crush anyone who tries to tear down my power. Quite a few world
leaders
seem to share this ideology, even some in our own country.
Jon
Have anyone in mind? Would you care to share the fruits of
More importantly I
suspect also the church will begin to make inroads into old Babylon.
The Crusaders already tried that approach: the Bible on the point of a
sword.
What makes you think the Book of Mormon on the muzzle of a tank will
work any
better?
Because the church is true? :-)
Paul
I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
John, but it
I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even
vote.
That's even worse, imo. It's throwing your freedom back in the faces of
your
founding fathers.
I don't care.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GET
I'm sorry that I'm being offensive, but sometimes it just cannot be
avoided. Ignorant people are getting us into a war that is not in the
national interest.
I beg to differ. It certainly appears that there are quite a few folks
that are interested in seeing this war carried out. Even in
I just wish I could know whether or not any of our beloved national
leaders
intentionally looked the other way while all this was coming down.
I have to believe that any one of our national leaders would have given
their own lives to prevent 911. (Clinton included).
I don't believe the
We had PROOF that Clinton
committed the felonies of perjury and obstruction of justice, but our
Senate acquitted him anyway, making them just as guilty as he was.
FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my
personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof?
Is proof needed? It is just common sense. The man in the street does
not
start wars. Men with wealth and power do. Who has the wealth and
power
today? It is Bush and
After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote:
FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my
personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying
and
good for Abraham too.
---
Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch. --JWR
I wasn't
Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made
everything he
did my business. I also feel that being president he had the
responsibility
to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren
Sandra
I can't agree. What he did in the privacy of his bedroom or
1. Secret Combinations
Oct. 1986: From the Book of Mormon we see the evils of secret
combinations portrayed in graphic and chilling reality . . . . We
should
constantly ask ourselves, 'Why did the Lord inspire Mormon (or Moroni or
Alma) to include that in his record? What lesson can I learn
April 1989: Secret combinations . . . are built up to get power,
gain,
and glory of the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22-23; Moses
5:31.)
.
. . Secret combinations brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite
civilizations and [have] been and will yet be the cause of the fall of
Steve wrote:
Below are six statements from President Ezra Taft Benson regarding a
world-
wide conspiracy that is increasing its evil influence and control over
America and the entire world. These warnings have come to us from God
through His living prophet. All six statements came after his
destruction of the people, but notice how he singled out the secret
combinations, just as the Church today could point out many threats to
peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work, but it has singled out
as
the greatest threat the Godless conspiracy. There is no conspiracy
theory
in
I think you have a Pollyanna view of Prophets and their role. In 1959,
at
President McKay's request, [then] Elder Ezra Taft Benson welcomed and
shook
hands with the butcher of the Ukraine, Nikita Kruschev. More recently,
at
the Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii, Church leaders met with some
The Lord's priesthood has a mission to perform for liberty-loving people
everywhere. We cannot, any more than Jonah of old, run away from our
calling. (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 620; italics added.)
I'm not running away. I'm just not going to get involved with politics. I
don't
Noticed someone used a term that is a pet peeve of mine. Technically,
the
term irregardless is bad grammar. To be grammatically correct, you can
use: irregarding or regardless. The IR and the less cancel each
other out, kind of a double negative.
Well, its listed in Websters.
Paul O
[EMAIL
But that's not the real issue; the issue is that he stood before the
camera
and lied to us, then stood before a grand jury and lied to them about
that
affair. That's why he was impeached.
It was an evil investigation brought on by the Gadianton Media. And sorry
to say the people of this country
Most of businesses in this country have policies against employees...
The White HOUSE is also for the President to manage his own personal
affairs. That is where he lives. It seems that some people on this list
don't believe in the right of privacy but think they OWN the lives of
government
All be if you were to do a study you would learn that
the so-called conspiracy theorists are a lot more likely to have a years
supply of food that the average active member. They vote differently
too,
so they will not have nearly as much to answer for when they stand
before
the Judge.
I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have
different gifts. Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is
apparently
not one of them. No problem. They are strong in other areas. And we
who
can clearly see these things have other areas where we are
blind.
For the last couple of years I've been toying with the idea of becoming
a
Democrat, although as a conservative and Constitutionalist I don't
imagine
I would be a very good Democrat.
I think I understand a little bit what you are saying and we talked about
it when I visited you. I'm torn
Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have? I wouldn't
fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore
Gadianton. Who knows? Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I
did. Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left
the
Then you would logically follow from your argument that one wouldn't
have
to be ordained a god, king and high priest?
That's not what I read in the scriptures. I read in Rev 1:6 and other
references that we must be made kings and high priests unto God the
Father.
I'm willing to learn and change
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige.
There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call
because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings.
I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply
pointing
Cousin Bill
If one defines a good Democrat as being someone who works
within the party to bring about a better platform, select better leaders
and
elect better office holders (those that would agree with church
teachings),
then it would be possible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat.
Sounds
Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote
for
the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know
better.
Cousin Bill
Hey, you just called me a fool. (don't worry, I'm sure I am)
I voted for Reagan the first time and I was only 18. I voted for
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to
be called as a stake president.
I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the
money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get
called in third world countries are the merchants and
My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an
administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income
bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with
regard to income within the stake boundaries.
How can you justify statements like that,
The liberal philosphy tending towards pro-abortion, pro-gay,
pro-pornography, the free-drug/booze/sex culture. This would be so
anti-LDS's philososphy, that in all conscienceness that the
straight-laced LDS would even attempt to go to the temple.
This is not what liberal means to me at all.
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a
rancher, as an apostle?
A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become
apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
What do I do?
Heidi the fair
Don't worry. They will catch him soon. A lot of people are watching and
those who know the sniper may catch on that something is wrong and report
it.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sign Up for Juno
It fits. So there is a high possibility of this being authentic and in
the right timeframe. But imagine having the bones of James!
I think the only way you're going to get the bones of James is if you tug
on his LIVING limbs. If you do that Gary I'm sure he'll smack you.
ha ha ha ha
Paul
Hopefully, these will help to show the importance of the future
ordination of all of us brethren as high priests and kings unto God the
Father.
Ok. I'm convinced. I look forward to my ordination someday. :-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
What is your definition of money? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000?
$1,000,000?
My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe
anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage.
Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your
definition of money,
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all
the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got
educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of
the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does
business and
I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up
a
discussion. I coached him while he was here. grin
It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul?
Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up.
It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones
I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than
5
percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny
this?
Sounds about right. Keep in mind though that this also includes the
perspective elders who never got ordained.
Gee wizz. Now I feel like
The way I feel about it, the Senate betrayed its country when it
acquitted
Clinton of the impeachment.
I feel the opposite. The Congress was reckless but the Senate was prudent
and demonstrated a high level of maturity. I was glad to see some sanity
restored in the House of government. The
In the area of oxymorons, is it possible to have a card carrying liberal
democrat and a temple going straight laced Latter Day Saint?
No. You cannot be a Democrat and hold a temple recommend. ;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GET
Hmmm - my husband is writhing on the ground in severe pain, muttering
something about Section 121, so I'll just send this off for him. He
does
some mighty strange things sometimes. But he's a High Priest, and that
seems pretty par for the course for those guys.
Nancy, Jon's wife
Section 121?
I've tried everything I can think of. Every time I've been an elder's
president, quorum brotherhood has been a top priority of mine. It used
to
be a lesson in the manual once a year or so. But I've never won a
convert.
Strange. I would think that quorum brotherhood would be easier to forge
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was
raising not
the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How
do you
know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less
than
sterling record).
I don't know if Bush is listening to US
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that
sincerely),
so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are
unlikely, for one
reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're
A person can be a Democrat and a good Mormon, or he can be a Mormon and
a
good Democrat; but he cannot be both a good Democrat and a good Mormon.
--JWR
I can see that John has slammed the Democrat Mormons with his little
jingle. So, if a Democrat can be a good Mormon but a good Democrat cannot
Trouble is, where is the General Authority
who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel
Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there
is
a general consensus then?
O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential
Gary said:
There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to
an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life),
Yep.
but
eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will
have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven.
I don't think so Gary
Please don't define *our* language for us. You can demonize the word all
you
want, but please keep your etymological waste products to yourself.
Liberal is
still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking
world.
I agree. The Republicans are trying to kill a perfectly good word
It was merely a rhetorical question.
Oh. I'm a little dumb.
;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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We know that a temple will be built in Jerusalem before the Second
Coming. We also know that a temple will be built in Jackson County
before
the Savior comes. Question: will the temple in Jerusalem have to be
built
and dedicated under the authority and supervision of the Melchizedek
Dan:
We might be in for a surprise here. The key, I think, is in the actual
consecration of the temple. The Jews will probably build it, as a
temple,...
they won't have the authority to
consecrate it, but the actual construction could be done in the faith
that
God will provide the means once it's
And with reference to all others who also receive the Melchizedek
Priesthood, the scripture saith: And all those who are ordained unto
this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest
continually. (JST, Heb. 7:3.) That is to say, they will be kings and
priests forever; their
Why? There's no evidence that he's resurrected. The James that ordained
Joseph Smith was James the Greater, brother of John the Apostle. This
James is brother of Jesus, who converted after the resurrection of
Christ, and became the bishop of Jerusalem, as well as author of the
book
of James. For
Mark
Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not
Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the
law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites
always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC)
that they
Grampa Bill responds:
I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust
just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was
terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he
want to work as a machinist for the county.
I know of another who
You have to remember that this is a terrestrial/Mosaic temple, NOT a
celestial/MP temple. We could help them build it so they could perform
their ordinances...
However, the Jews
still await the Messiah, and so are still under the Mosaic Law. Their
temple would sacrifice animals, and if they are
The Levites were given the Aaronic Priesthood as a hereditary position.
They have a right to serve in that level of truth they have. They do not
have all the saving truths or ordinances, but a temple built upon the
Mosaic law would probably be accepted by God IF they were truly
dedicated
to a
This is exactly how I see it and this is what the scriptures teach. I can
tell that John is quite familiar and in perfect touch with the style of
Bruce R McConkie's teachings and Mark E Peterson's too. All of the GA's
teach this but deliver it in their own style. Some are gentle like
President
I recently heard Mormonism referred to as American gnosticism. What
does
that mean?
I'm not sure but it sounds like something that is associated with the
ideas and teachings of a progressive religion that has it's own tangents
outside of mainstream thinking. I can see how this term could be
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having
taught
false doctrine
No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false
doctrine.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is
generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from
publically discussing their problems or mistakes
My last Stake President was excommunicated. Shortly after his
excommunication he being accompanied by the new Stake
All of this and I have a sparkling personality. Controversial? No, not
me, not in the least! Just ask everyone on this list that I agree with
everything they believe in. JWR's conspiracies? Definitely! Marc's
liberal views? Of course I agree with them. It's election time and I'm
ready to promise
so I'll
considered most anything legal and moral.
Sorry but those positions no longer exist!
;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you
let slip
a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be
corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the
core
doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to
It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with
other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence,
and
they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we
could
only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard.
I agree. I believe
I agree. You're an excellent reader and thanks for pointing out the
difference.
Paul O
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:40:33 -0900 John W. Redelfs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote:
No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching
false
Maybe the scriptures really are just an ancient collection of
Hebrew folk talks. Is that possible?
Well, I've put all my eggs in one basket in the which the scriptures are
true. However, it seems that symbolism plays a major part in the stories
told of the Bible which could make what we think
Ok, I was just asking. Yet, it was not entirely a throw away remark,
as
after four years at a job that was perfect for myself and family at the
time, I now find myself among the ranks of the unemployed.
O dear! I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you get...
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
That's exactly what I wrote: I *don't* believe the scriptures are
secular
histories.
If this was so, the apostles and prophets from Joseph Smith on would have
told us so. everything I have ever heard from modern prophets teaches
that the old history of the world is true and historical unless you
Paul Osborne wrote:
---
Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone
pinch me please?
---
Sure, happy to--
PINCH!
OUCH!! You didn't have to do it so hard, you meanie.
;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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JWR confessed
I'm just a black and white kind of guy.
Me too. And, I don't take prisoners.
;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with
naturally
occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the
whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone
pinch me please?
I know I exist, but maybe you're a figment of my imagination .
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:59:01 -0900 John W. Redelfs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:
Archaeology also shows that Jericho didn't have the walls tumbling
down
when Joshua fought it.
I don't believe archaeology knows what it is talking about. The
Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive? If he
is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before
adding
Saddam Hussein to the hit list. --JWR
I'm convinced he is dead. You can buy anything in this world for money
but only if it exists.
Paul O
After the scriptures what is the best book on gospel doctrine? My
present
choice would be THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH edited by
Joseph Fielding Smith.
I agree, absolutely!!
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this
list,
I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest
and
sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel,
and I
don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us
Not only that but what about the innocents who would undoubtedly lose
their
lives in such an attack?
IMO, that's all part of the deal. War is hell but we must fight it to win
at minimal cost to our own side and if nuclear bombs will achieve that
end, I am all for it. Whoever attacks this
Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists.
Oh brother, give me a break! Try telling that to the victims of 911! You
talk as if the government is the great enemy of our lives. I think the
above was one of your overstatements that you do from time to time.
Paul O
[EMAIL
JWR asked:
Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant
threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me
regardless of we do or don't do.
You better believe it. The Islamic fundies are the ones that are going to
bring to pass Armageddon as the rest
Stacy asked
I've wanted out of here for some time. Does that mean I'm wrong?
Some people have a real hard time living in this lousy world. Coping
skills vary too. I'm rather weak and have panic/anxiety attacks that
cannot be easily controlled and do silly outbursts in public or sometimes
act
Steve,
I still stay that all out war is always on the table when it comes to
preserving ones country, religion, and liberties--notwithstanding what a
church leader has said on the subject from the not so distance past. I'm
not prepared to see my country go down for any reason even if it meant
the
Quote
Thus we in America are now deliberately searching out and developing the
most savage, murderous means of exterminating peoples that Satan can
plant
in our minds. We do it not only shamelessly, but with a boast. God will
not
forgive us for this.
If we are to avoid extermination, if the
Perhaps you're right, but I still fail to see how the United States
maintained the moral high ground by bombing civilians. I think a
demonstration about 5 miles offshore might have accomplished the same
purpose.
Stephen was right, Steven. Your demonstration idea is too risky. We had
to do
The primary objective is to kill people and
break things, with more success than the enemy. Morality aside, this is
the reality of warfare.
Amen. Kill the enemy!!
That is what I learned when I served in the US Army for a brief period.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
If Jewish and Christian fundies don't beat them to it by attacking the
Temple
Mount.
Well, anything is possible. But--you have to consider that the Jews had
their chance and still do--but they don't overstep their bounds by
attacking that disgusting dome. The Muslims are a force that can't be
(plus the usual Canuckistani comeback, which is that given what y'all
are [not]
taught about geography in school, we have no need to fear, because we
know you'd
have to find us first...)
Hey Marc; would you mind stepping out of my cross hairs as you are
blocking my vision. ;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL
I suppose you have a dim view of all Muslims, then? Or is it just the
Islamist factions?
Millions upon millions of Muslims will gear up to go into Armageddon and
their whole religion will support it. Babylon must fall. Tell me the name
of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish
Jon wisely said:
Those who want to fault the US for what we
did can just stuff it. Those who in eternal ingratitude want to blame
the
nasty old US for being so bad can stuff it as well.
And let all the congregation say AMEN! Dropping the bombs on Japan was
wise and the making of more nuclear
von Goethe
Paul Osborne wrote:
---
Trust me, you're not alone. I don't care about Jackon County or
the
second coming or any of the dreaded prophecies of doom. I just want
to
get my mission done and get out of here. The sooner the better as I
wish
the Lord would hurry it up and beam
No. I would say that person wasn't a true Muslim. Are not the Jews
infidels?
Paul O
On Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:42:45 -0700 Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Suppose I were to tell you one. What would be your reaction? Would
you change
your mind?
Paul Osborne wrote:
I suppose
And I think you may be a bloodthirsty man. I will not say definitely,
however, because I am not supposed to judge mankind, Jesus is. You may
very well have good motives, but I think you should watch them closely.
Hey, at least I know how to win a war and that is the purpose of fighting
a
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