subject:"RE\: \[TruthTalk\] Who decides"

Perry, thanks for taking the time.  I now understand better how you are 
reading it, and your reason for why the switch from ye to they and them is 
reasonable, although I would have expected something more along the lines of 
those of you for clarity's sake.

You asked which of us have been led of the Spirit to our reading.  You are 
the only one who has made a claim of revelation concerning this passage. 
I'm simply reading it at face value.  I will take up what you have shared in 
prayer and consider it further.  At this moment, I still have reservations 
about it.  Does God really give promises to some in the church that he does 
not give to others?  Your rendering leads to the idea that there exists a 
clergy in the body of Christ which is special to God with special promises. 
I see the clergy and laity distinction as something that crept into the 
church later, just as the pope concept did, and the single pastor / ceo of 
the congregation concept did.  It seems to me that I will have to re-examine 
all my views concerning this if your perspective is right here.  I am more 
than willing to do this.

You referenced Luke 16:18 below.  Just to make sure I am not missing 
something you said, did you mean Mark 16:18, kind of like I meant Mark when 
I typed John?  I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Also, to be clear about this, is it your sincere testimony that the Holy 
Spirit came upon you and gave you this viewpoint?  Did you experience some 
kind of vision or dream that brought this perspective?  This is an important 
witness if you are taking this position.  I thought you were perhaps saying 
this flippantly, as if revelation by the Spirit no longer happens today. 
Maybe you can tell me more about how this line of thinking came to you.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides



Comments below:

From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perry wrote:
  I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical
to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not
changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just
upbraided for thier unbelief.

The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by
the author, John.  John is the one who refers to the eleven as they
andthem.  This is not Jesus addressing anyone.

Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the
author was Mark.

Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them...  I assume the antecedent
of He is Jesus.  So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking,
up to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD
SPOKEN.  Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of
they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven.

So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and
therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach.  When
Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer to
the eleven.  Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch
to saying THEY or THEM?  Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and
instead of saying YOU says THEY or THEM?  Or is it possible that you
assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18?


David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents embedded...perhaps
that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me:

(14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat
at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief
and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the
Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen.

(15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into all
the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[It is important at this point to recall that Jesus has just upbraided the
apostles (v14) for their unbelief!]

(16) He [of the eleven] that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but
he [of the eleven] that believeth not shall be damned.

[notice in verse 17 that the focus changes from the 11 to those of the
eleven that believe (which turned out to be all of them, I believe). It is
no longer proper to refer to them as ye since they and them now refers
to a subset of ye. He cannot say ye without implying ALL of the 11!]

(17) And these signs shall follow them [of the elven] that believe; In my
name shall they [those of the eleven that believe] cast out devils; they
[those of the eleven that believe] shall speak with new tongues;

(18) They [those of of the eleven that believe] shall take up serpents; and
if they [those of of the eleven that believe] drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them [those of of the eleven that believe]; they [those

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry, I forgot to ask you again to address the situation of baptism in 
regards to the eleven.  Do you think they needed to be baptized again / 
first time / what?  Explain your perception of when they were baptized in 
the context of, he who believes and is baptized...

Also, isn't the context of believe here concerning believing the gospel? 
They had already believed the gospel that Jesus preached, and they 
themselves preached had already been preaching it to those specific cities 
where the Lord had sent them.  What they had trouble believing was his 
bodily resurrection, and their commission to preach was being extended to 
the whole world and every creature.  How do you see it?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

JD wrote:
 You must know that I do not think I am
 wrong in anything that I share.   That is
 assurance.

This is not assurance in the spiritual and Biblical sense of the word.  This 
is presumption, a counterfeit of faith.  I sincerely doubt that anyone has 
true faith that they are right in anything they share.  I know that I would 
not share very much if this was the case.

Some of this dialogue leads us back to how you view faith as emotional while 
I view faith as rational and spiritual.  Faith might bring emotions, but 
emotions do not bring faith.  Emotions bring presumption.  Intellect and 
spirit are the foundation that leads us to faith, IMO.

JD wrote:
 But my intelliect knows that I am not
 right about all that I believe.

I cannot comprehend how you can speak of assurance if your intellect is not 
in line.  True assurance involves the whole person, including both spirit 
and mind.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread Charles Perry Locke



David,


From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perry, thanks for taking the time.  I now understand better how you are
reading it, and your reason for why the switch from ye to they and them is
reasonable, although I would have expected something more along the lines 
of

those of you for clarity's sake.


Perhaps They vs Those of you was the translator's choice. Perhaps it is 
rendered exactly the way the greek says it.



You asked which of us have been led of the Spirit to our reading.  You are
the only one who has made a claim of revelation concerning this passage.
I'm simply reading it at face value.  I will take up what you have shared 
in

prayer and consider it further.  At this moment, I still have reservations
about it.  Does God really give promises to some in the church that he does
not give to others?  Your rendering leads to the idea that there exists a
clergy in the body of Christ which is special to God with special promises.
I see the clergy and laity distinction as something that crept into the
church later, just as the pope concept did, and the single pastor / ceo of
the congregation concept did.  It seems to me that I will have to 
re-examine

all my views concerning this if your perspective is right here.  I am more
than willing to do this.


I think He does give promises to some that he does not give to others. In 
the days of the early church, I think the those particular signs were given 
to the apostles to validate their message, and to protect them in carrying 
out their mission to spread the gospel. Perhaps all of those same signs and 
protection are not needed by all. Today, not all speak in tongues, not all 
heal, not all teach. Yet I doubt if the inability to perform any of those 
signs is an indication of one's position in Christ.


You referenced Luke 16:18 below.  Just to make sure I am not missing
something you said, did you mean Mark 16:18, kind of like I meant Mark when
I typed John?  I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.


Yes, I meant Mark.



Also, to be clear about this, is it your sincere testimony that the Holy
Spirit came upon you and gave you this viewpoint?  Did you experience some
kind of vision or dream that brought this perspective?  This is an 
important

witness if you are taking this position.  I thought you were perhaps saying
this flippantly, as if revelation by the Spirit no longer happens today.
Maybe you can tell me more about how this line of thinking came to you.


David, this is going to be a rather drawn out explanation, including some of 
my history, that I think most are not interested in, and probably a bit more 
than you are asking for. Let me draw this up and send it to you privately.


Perry



Peace be with you.
David Miller.


- Original Message -
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides



Comments below:

From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perry wrote:
  I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be 
parenthetical
to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but 
not

changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just
upbraided for thier unbelief.

The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by
the author, John.  John is the one who refers to the eleven as they
andthem.  This is not Jesus addressing anyone.

Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the
author was Mark.

Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them...  I assume the antecedent
of He is Jesus.  So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus 
speaking,

up to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD
SPOKEN.  Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent 
of

they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven.

So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and
therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach.  
When
Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer 
to

the eleven.  Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch
to saying THEY or THEM?  Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and
instead of saying YOU says THEY or THEM?  Or is it possible that you
assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18?


David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents 
embedded...perhaps

that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me:

(14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat
at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief
and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the
Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen.

(15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into 
all

the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[It is important at this point

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread Charles Perry Locke



Dave, thanks for reminding me. I intended to reply to those questions, but 
overlooked them in the post.


  I have no reason to believe that the 11 had been baptised prior to Jesus' 
appearance to them. I have not read in scripture that any of them were. Of 
course, there are different types of baptism, and they may have been 
baptised for the remission of sins, but perhaps not baptised in Jesus' name. 
You mentioned the washing of Peter's feet...I will read that again and see 
if I can see any allusion to baptism there...in previous readings I did not. 
I tend to try not to assign symbolism to very many things, unless it 
explained as such in scrupture. I feel it is dangerous to assign symbolism 
where none exists, and that doing so leads to and is a major source of 
error, especially in understanding the end times. I feel that if there is 
symbolism, it will either be explained as such (Luke 8:11-15), or will be 
used in a simile (Matt 13:33), or will be so obvious that it cannot be 
explained any other way (Matt 24:32,33).


  As for thier unbelief, I believe that after Jesus'  cricifixion and 
burial they were despondent, and their faith was probaby at a low. I am sure 
they thought that it was not supposed to go this way (having not fully 
understood what was meant by Jesus' having to be raised up on the third 
day). Not believing that the Marys saw Jesus after his butial was tantamount 
at that point to not believing the gospel (which was not complete, BTW, 
until he was raised!). His resurrection IS the power of the gospel. Without 
beleiving that he was raised from the dead, the gosepl is just vain words. 
All through Acts it is the RESURRECTION is preached, not the crucifixion. 
The resurrection IS the GOOD NEWS! Praise God for that!


  So, until they saw the resurrected Jesus, I think they did not fully 
understand. Thomas is one example of this...he felt free enough to openly 
state his doubt. In fact, they all had disbelief...that is why he upbraided 
them when he appeared to them. I think his resurrection is what convinced 
the apostles of the truth of the gospel...until Jesus was raised, his 
crucifixion meant to them that their leader and their hopes were forever 
lost. That is why they did not believe the Marys when they told them they 
had seen Jesus...had they had fully understood and believed the gospel, they 
would have believed the Marys.


  Now, that being said, it makes sense that he would upbraid them for their 
unbeleif...it also makes sense that he warns them that any of them that do 
not believe (after now having seen that he was raised) would be damned! NOW 
they were to beleive and be baptised...into Christ.


  I hope this is clear...I am not a theologian and often cannot make my 
thoughts clear in writing.


Perry


From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:37:08 -0500

Perry, I forgot to ask you again to address the situation of baptism in
regards to the eleven.  Do you think they needed to be baptized again /
first time / what?  Explain your perception of when they were baptized in
the context of, he who believes and is baptized...

Also, isn't the context of believe here concerning believing the gospel?
They had already believed the gospel that Jesus preached, and they
themselves preached had already been preaching it to those specific cities
where the Lord had sent them.  What they had trouble believing was his
bodily resurrection, and their commission to preach was being extended to
the whole world and every creature.  How do you see it?

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: You must know that I do not think I am wrong in anything that I share. That is assurance. This is not assurance in the spiritual and Biblical sense of the word. This is presumption, a counterfeit of faith.
Absolute and utter nonsense. My assurance comes from the Lord. You need to repent of your blasphemy.
I sincerely doubt that anyone has true faith that they are right in anything they share. I know that I would not share very much if this was the case. Some of this dialogue leads us back to how you view faith as emotional while I view faith as rational and spiritual.
You have not answered my question concerning your view of "spiritual" faith as opposed to the kind of faith you think I have? When you speak of conviction and assurance, you are talking about emotion. And when you imply (in your post to Perry) that the Spirit's workings per I Cor 2 must be a product of some sort of vision or special experience in addition to the "normal" reading of the text with a view to understanding, you add Miller tradition to the equation, you are adding to the Word of God, you are denying the work of the Spirit in the lives of others and attributing their faith tothepower of the Accuser -- which is the unforgivable sin. You need to be very careful here, David, lest you wake up in thepond of fire we know as Hell.
Faith might bring emotions, but emotions do not bring faith. Emotions bring presumption. Intellect and spirit are the foundation that leads us to faith, IMO.
Ah, the foundation stones of legalism -- and I mean that most sincerely. In Romans 14, the weak brother is "weak" because he is "wrong." His faith, at this point , is NOT based upon truth yet his faith is just that, FAITH, and the actions that arise from this conviction work in his favor. His faith is a saving faith. You do not understand this because you think one's faith must be correct to be legitimate
JD wrote: But my intelliect knows that I am not right about all that I believe. I cannot comprehend how you can speak of assurance if your intellect is not in line. True assurance involves the whole person, including both spirit and mind. I am conviced that I am right in all that I believe. I can look to the specifics of each point of doctrine and see no error. BUT, on a grander scale, and taking into consideration I Cor 8:1-3, God is telling me not to take what I know too seriously. Knowledge is not the basis of my relationship withGod in Christ.

I have described the situation for all honest disciples of Christ. Integrity demands that I humbily change what I know to be untrue. If I were not fully convinced of my correctness, I would change the teaching immediately. But I have a fallen mind that is under the process of renewal. Becasue of that fact, God has told me not to over confident about my knowing .
Lance . Bill , Jonathan, G, all know thatthey could be wrong about everything or anything they beleive. But none of them see error in their specific beleifs OR THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT POINT OF ERROR.
JD I speak to you as you speak to others and in the company of love and concern.
cribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry wrote:
 I have no reason to believe that the 11
 had been baptised prior to Jesus'
 appearance to them.

John 3:25-26
(25) Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the 
Jews about purifying.
(26) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with 
thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, 
and all men come to him.

John 4:1-2
(1) When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made 
and baptized more disciples than John,
(2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

John 13:8-10
(8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, 
If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
(9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands 
and my head.
(10) Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his 
feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Should we not consider the eleven apostles already saved?

John 14:16-17
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, 
that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because IT 
SEETH HIM NOT, neither knoweth him: BUT YE KNOW HIM; for he dwelleth with 
you, and shall be in you.

It seems to me that they believed, were baptized, and thereby were delivered 
from this world system and had come to know the Holy Ghost, although they 
had not yet been baptized in the Holy Ghost.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread Charles Perry Locke


From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Perry wrote:
 I have no reason to believe that the 11 had been baptised prior to 
Jesus' appearance to them.


John 3:25-26
(25) Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the
Jews about purifying.
(26) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with
thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same 
baptizeth,

and all men come to him.

John 4:1-2
(1) When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus 
made

and baptized more disciples than John,
(2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)


It makes sense that if his disciples (assuming the apostles were counted in 
his disciples) were baptizing, that they themselves had been baptized. But 
is there not several different baptisms identified in the scripture? What 
type of baptism do you think his disciples were performing? John was 
performing baptism for the remittance of sins. Do you think this is the 
baptism Jesus' disciples were performing? Do you think it possible that when 
Jesus appeared to the 11, he was referring to a different baptism? Perhaps 
not ALL of the 11 were baptised at that point. What do you think?




John 13:8-10
(8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered 
him,

If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
(9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands
and my head.
(10) Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his
feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Should we not consider the eleven apostles already saved?


I am not confident there is symbolism to baptism in the above verses. Does 
the greek yield any more  information to that effect?




John 14:16-17
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because IT
SEETH HIM NOT, neither knoweth him: BUT YE KNOW HIM; for he dwelleth with
you, and shall be in you.

It seems to me that they believed, were baptized, and thereby were 
delivered

from this world system and had come to know the Holy Ghost, although they
had not yet been baptized in the Holy Ghost.


Yes, it does imply that.



Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread Blainerb473

jd wrote:
How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have
not seen anyof these signs follow them?
Again, we either have to conclude that theconcept of faith
as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular
conceptof it, or that Jesus was bearing false
testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the
immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the
position that faith is something more than what most people
thinkfaith is.

Blainerb: Just for the record, I believe the
Lord was speaking to his apostles, but was speaking concerning all whom they
taught. As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that
day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men,
having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof." (Speaking of the power of God to perform miracles)
The problem is, there is an almost
universal disbelief in God's power to perform miraculous acts. Miracles
are commonly reported among Mormon believers--I have experienced a number of
them myself--almost always in connection with work in the church.

In a message dated 12/21/2005 8:24:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I stated that I do in
my original post below.From: "ShieldsFamily"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so
do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,too?
izzy-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Dean MooreSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who
decidescd: I agree Perry.
[Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05
PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David,Regarding your item 2, we might
also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the
apostles, and that this does not apply to allbelievers.
The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which
Ibelieve to exclusively be the apostles.
Perry David wrote:
2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth
and is baptized shall be saved; but he thatbelieveth not
shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that
believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they
shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they
shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up
into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working
with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
Amen. How many Christians have believed and been
baptized but have not seen anyof these signs
follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that
theconcept of faith as taught by Jesus is something
greater than the popular conceptof it, or that
Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I
take the position that faith is something more than what
most people thinkfaith is.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread knpraise

The writer below is not me.
1. He believes the popular view of faith is the incorrect view -- among Christians!!! proving himself totally out of touch with the Christian community who shares a deeply held belief in the very kind of faith this person defines.

2. this line "that Jesus was bearing false testimony here" is not somethoing I would ever introduce into a discussion with others who disagree withme.

-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

jd wrote:
How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen anyof these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that theconcept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular conceptof it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people thinkfaith is.

Blainerb: Just for the record, I believe the Lord was speaking to his apostles, but was speaking concerning all whom they taught. As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof." (Speaking of the power of God to perform miracles)
The problem is, there is an almost universal disbelief in God's power to perform miraculous acts. Miracles are commonly reported among Mormon believers--I have experienced a number of them myself--almost always in connection with work in the church.

In a message dated 12/21/2005 8:24:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I stated that I do in my original post below.From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,too? izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean MooreSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
; Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David,Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to allbelievers. The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which Ibelieve to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he thatbelieveth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen anyof these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that theconcept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular conceptof it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people thinkfaith is.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread ttxpress




true; JCdoesn't see 
Mormans as Christians--neither do I, Bro


On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:49:48 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the 
  Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the 
  commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power 
  thereof."

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread knpraise



G

I want a bat. Small diameter grip. Signiture "Pops-- 2006" Hickory ??? 

Long and light -- is there such a thing? 

jd

-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

true; JCdoesn't see Mormans as Christians--neither do I, Bro


On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:49:48 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof."

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-23 Thread ttxpress




Maple or ash, 
Bro--hickory is way too heavy and Blaine bein' light on his feet and lightheaded 
too probably runs faster than youthink

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 05:36:27 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  G
  
  I want a bat. Small diameter grip. Signiture 
  "Pops-- 2006" Hickory ??? 
  
  Long and light -- is there such a thing? 
  
  jd
  
  -- 
Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

true; JCdoesn't 
see Mormans as Christians--neither do I, Bro


On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:49:48 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the 
  Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the 
  commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power 
  thereof."

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Sorry for the confusion. It was just that I had been speaking of the Spirit and Spirit baptism when you came into the discussion and asked if I had been born again. I had not realized that your interruption also represented a complete change of subject matter. 

I was "born again" on Dec. 27, 1957. I was baptised in the Spirit for the first time while leaving a UPC revival in my black and gold 1988 Chevy Camaro in Dec. of 1997,forty years later.The first healing that was, to me, without question included a lesson God taught me involving therepair of my refrigerator. And my first taste of the Full Gospel began in late 2004 and continues to this day. 

jd


-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 








Please dont insinuate that I am trying anything. I am trying only to clarify. I am NOT speaking about baptism in the Holy Spirit. I am speaking about being Born Again. I presume you know the difference. If so, please tell me if and when you were Born Again. Thank you, jd. iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:34 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. 



There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. 



jd.



-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Why do you care? 



-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
When were you born again, jd? iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. 



jd



-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz






Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!  My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


So Judy has her illumination and the rest of minions have only biblical context. The fact of the matter is this: the only ones in the room when Christ spoke these words were the 11, as Perry has pointed out. The conclusion should be obvious. Thank God none of us have to right to be saved !!

jd

-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Antecedent Perry? Only for the apostles? I know dispensationalists teach and
believe this way and they also teach that all four gospels are only for the Jews. 
and just like with healing, if we will not believe we will not receive. Even Jesus
was limited in some places from doing any mighty works because of unbelief.

The Amplified Bible reads:
"And He said to them. Go into all the world, and preach and publish openly
the good news (the Gospel) to every creature (of the whole human race). He
who believes (who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and 
Him Whom it sets forth) and is baptized will be saved (from the penalty of
eternal death); but he who does not believe (who does not adhere to and
trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) will be condemned."

The way I read it the antecedent to the He above which is Vs.16 would be
"every creature of the whole human race" Not too many walk in this kind of
faith but the same signs still accompany those who believe and are faithful
to preach and speak as the oracles of God.

From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Izzy,

 This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus was speaking. There may be other texts that say the same for other believers that v16 says for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do you know of any other verses that apply to all believers?

 This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism is required for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the apostles, we cannot generally say this text applies to anyone else.

 Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the apostles. In v16, when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the apostles). So when 'he' occurs in v16, it refers to "he, of the apostles". Then, he tells them of all the signs and protections they (the apostles) will take with them when they go out.

This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the apostles.

BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me.

Perry


From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 -0600Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles Perry LockeSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesI stated that I do in my original 
post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600  Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy  -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides &
gt; cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message]   From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]   To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org   Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM   Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking   specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers.   The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believe   to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20   (16) He that believeth 
and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth   not shall be damned.   (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they   cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;   (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it   shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall   recover.   (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into   heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.   (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with   them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of   these signs follow them? Again, we either have t
o conclude that the concept   of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of   it, or that Jesus was bearing false te

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides




-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:00:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! 

The idea JD is that it is an exercise in faith because we don't know how to pray as we should so the Spiritintercedes for us before the throne of grace - through us - by using our own voice to petition also it edifies. Huh ???

My wife prays in tongues. 

I hope she didn't receive her gift while she was a Mormon because these are false tongues. "Tongues" come from God and have nothing to do with the "right church."

I have been around the experience for years and years, David. I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times.

How can you know this?Because I have this Spirit, Judy. And, it has been confirmed to me 100's of times in my 48 years as a disciple.Comparing ourselves amongst ourselves only proves we are not wise (though most of us
have done this at some time or other). Huh ??

Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakst to me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. 

There are no second class "believers" JD but still what you describe is not the same as what David is speaking about. We are talking about the same thing AND apparently you and I are not (who said anything about second class believers -- certainly not me). 

But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature."The Lordship of Christ is. 
The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."

There is vanity in the wrong kind of "spiritual knowledge" (the occult kind) but I have a hard time accepting that the
Lord would be counselling against Himself. Since I did not suggest such, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am going to guess that neither do you.  
"The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty" judyt No kidding. The end of legalism as we know it is found in these words of truth !!

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


I refer you to Eph 5:18-19.Exegetical note: Spirit filling and Spirit baptism are the same experience. As Linda has pointed out, Spirit baptism and "new birth" are not the same experience. The apostles very own baptism in the Spirit was not accompanied by the laying on of hands. Cornelius and his houshold did not have the accompaniment of laying on of hands. Paul received the filling without hands. Did laying on of hands play a role in Spirit filling, from time to time, in the biblical account? Of course. But one cannot argue for "patterned activity" in this regard. becaue of the foregoing. 

jd

-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

I find what you've written right here to be confusing JD because there is no scriptural pattern for getting the Baptism
of Jesus in the Holy Spirit while "singing a song". The apostles believe in and practiced the laying on of hands.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:34:26 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. jd.

From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 








Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past... izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Why do you care? 



From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
When were you born again, jd? iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 


Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands.jd



From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz






Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!  My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." 
 
 judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides




I appeal to Terry to re-introduce himself into the 
conversation.I just said so and, will do so again. Why would you, David, 
Judy, Kevin and Dean (not Charles on this one) actually challenge the 
genuineness of John's 'Sonship'? Is this supposed to be 
funny?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 21, 2005 20:08
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who 
decides
  
  Why do you care? 
  
  -- 
Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 








When were you born 
again, jd? iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who 
    decides


Of course I have. And the 
illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as 
anything you might have. I too question your 
"birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His 
hands. 



jd



  -- Original message -- 
  From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  JD, have you ever 
  been born again of the Spirit? iz
  
  
  
  
  
  
Huh? I can't pray 
for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? 
!!  My wife prays in tongues. I have been 
around the experience for years and years, David.I am just 
as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time 
after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands 
and just let it all soak in . At those times, I 
am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my 
behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as 
He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But 
the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the 
center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ 
is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of 
placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-22 Thread Judy Taylor




We don't appeal to logic to understand God's Word JD; 
but then I shouldn't be surprised since you are so
intoGreek issues ... Everything spoken of 
in Mark 16:14-18 is spoken of elsewhere. jt

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:55:28 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Linda, you might try reading Mark 16:14-18 before actually making an 
  attempt at an argument from "logic." V. 14 tells us His 
  audience. Who is He talking to? The Christian 
  Church or the 11? A really good second quetion is this: do 
  you think this is the only passage in which the gospel and water baptism are 
  taught? jd
  From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
  Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized? 
   That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz  
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke 
I stated that I do in my original post below.  
   From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org  To: 
  <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides 
   Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600
  Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, 
   too? izzy-Original Message- 
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore 
   Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM  To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides 
 cd: I agree Perry. 
 [Original Message]From: Charles Perry 
  Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   To: 
  <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>   Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM 
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
 David,   Regarding your 
  item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking
  specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all  
  believers.The key is to identify the ant ecedent of 
  "He" in verse 16, which I  believeto 
  exclusively be the apostles.   Perry 
David wrote: 
2. Mark 16:16-20(16) He that believeth and is 
  baptized shall be saved; but he that  believeth
  not shall be damned.(17) And these signs shall follow them 
  that believe; In my name shall  theycast out 
  devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(18) They shall 
  take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
  shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall  
recover.(19) So then after the Lord had spoken 
  unto them, he was received up  intoheaven, and 
  sat on the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and 
  preached every where, the Lord worki ng  with
  them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
 How many Christians have believed and been baptized but 
  have not seen  any  ofthese signs 
  follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the  concept 
 of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the 
  popular  concept  ofit, or that 
  Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this   
   passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I 
   takethe position that faith is something more 
  than what most people think  faithis.  
  --
  "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
   know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) 
   http:// www.InnGlory.org   If 
  you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a 
   friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.   
   --  "Let your 
  speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may  
  know  how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) 
   http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not 
  want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a 
   friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.   
   --  "Let your 
  speech be always with gr ace, seasoned with salt, that you may  
  know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  
  http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to 
  receive posts from this list, send an email to  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a 
   friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.   
   --  "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned 
  with salt, that you may know  how you ought to answer every man." 
  (Colossians 4:6)  http://www.InnGlory.org   If you do 
  not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a 
   friend who wants to join, t

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-22 Thread Judy Taylor






On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:00:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my 
prayer tongue is English?? !! 

  
The idea JD is that it is an exercise in faith 
because we don't know how to pray as we should so the Spiritintercedes 
for us before the throne of grace - through us - by using our own voice to 
petition also it edifies. 

Huh ???

My wife prays in tongues. 

I hope she didn't receive her gift while she was a 
Mormon because these are false tongues. "

Tongues" come from God and have nothing to do with 
the "right church."

I said nothing about "churches" tongues are 
a spiritual gift and the wrong spirit ministers a false gift. Satan 
has a counterfeit for every gift 
from Jesus that is real.

I have been around the experience for years and years, David. I 
am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times.

How can you know this?

Because I have this Spirit, 
Judy. And, it has been confirmed to me 100's of times in my 48 years 
as a disciple.

The HolySpirit is not in the business 
of revealing personal informationabout others except when spiritual 
discernment is needed andministry is involved. He always functions on 
a "need to know" basis 
and

All comparing ourselves amongst ourselves does is 
prove we are not wise (though most of us
have done this at some time or other). (See 2 
Corinthians 10:12)

Huh ??

This is the way of the world; God's ways are the 
complete opposite. He will often use the least and He
tells us to honor the least amongst 
us.

Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised 
hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, 
I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my 
behalf. God speakst to me, David, just as certainly as He does 
to you and, who knows, maybe more often. 

There are no second class "believers" JD but still 
what you describe is not the same as what David is speaking about. 


We are talking about the same thing 
AND apparently you and I are not (who said anything about second class 
believers -- certainly not me). 

You didn't say it JD but sensea note of it in 
some of what you write; fear of being inferior or something
like that which is often overcompensated for with 
bluster and hype..

But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is 
not the center of my "new nature."The Lordship 
of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing 
too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."

There is vanity in the wrong kind of "spiritual 
knowledge" (the occult kind) but I have a hard time accepting that the 
Lord would be counselling against 
Himself. 

Since I did not suggest 
such, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am going to 
guess that neither 
do 
you.
  
You didn't say it in those words JD but you 
do claim the Lord made the above revelation to you; so 
you
are against too much "spiritual knowledge" 
and follow after men who study and write big books about 
a
dead letter.
 
"The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of 
the Lord is there is liberty" judyt 

No kidding. The end of legalism as we 
know it is found in these words of truth !!

That verse refers to freedom from spiritual bondage 
- not antinomianism... as you imply above.


   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-22 Thread Judy Taylor




JD; put the Greek aside for a moment and take a deep 
breath then read the verses
below. Yes the eleven were who Jesus was speaking 
to at the time but he knew
when he spokethat they alone would not encompass 
"all the world" - The antecedent
to the word HE below is the 
one who had heard what they had preached and 
published openly - and in the Ampl Version this would be "every 
creature of the 
whole human race"

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:18:54 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  So Judy has her illumination and the rest of minions have only biblical 
  context. 
  The fact of the matter is this: the only ones in the room when Christ 
  spoke these 
  words were the 11, as Perry has pointed out. The conclusion 
  should be obvious. 
  Thank God none of us have to right to be saved !! jd
  
  From: 
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Antecedent Perry? Only for the apostles? I 
know dispensationalists teach and
believe this way and 
they also teach that all four gospels are only for the Jews. 
and just like with healing, if we will not believe 
we will not receive. Even Jesus
was limited in some places from doing any mighty 
works because of unbelief.

The Amplified Bible reads:
"And He said to them. Go into all the world, and 
preach and publish openly
the good news (the Gospel) to every creature (of the whole human 
race). He
who believes (who adheres to and trusts in and 
relies on the Gospel and 
Him Whom it sets forth) and is baptized will be 
saved (from the penalty of
eternal death); but he who does not believe (who 
does not adhere to and
trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it 
sets forth) will be condemned."

The way I read it the antecedent to the 
He above which is Vs.16 would be
"every creature of the whole human 
race" Not too many walk in this kind of
faith but the same signs still accompany those who 
believe and are faithful
to preach and speak as the oracles of 
God.

From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Izzy,

 This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus 
was speaking. There may be other texts that say the same for other 
believers that v16 says for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do 
you know of any other verses that apply to all believers?

 This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism 
is required for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the 
apostles, we cannot generally say this text applies to anyone 
else.

 Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the 
apostles. In v16, when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the 
apostles). So when 'he' occurs in v16, it refers to "he, of the 
apostles". Then, he tells them of all the signs and protections they 
(the apostles) will take with them when they go out.

This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the 
apostles.

BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me.

Perry


From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 
-0600Really So only the apostles are saved if they 
believe and are baptized?That does not go for anyone since the 
apostles? iz-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Charles Perry LockeSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 
9:24 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesI stated that I do in my original 
post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 
18:46:19 -0600  Perry, so do you think the "He" in 
verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy 
 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 
PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides  gt; cd: I 
agree Perry. [Original 
Message]   From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
     To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM   Subject: Re: 
[TruthTalk] Who decides David, 
Regarding your item 2, we 
might also conclude that Jesus was speaking   
specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all 
believers.   The key is to identify the antecedent of 
"He" in verse 16, which I believe   to 
exclusively be the apostles. 
Perry David wrote:  
   2. Mark 16:16-20   (16) He that

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry, I appreciate you bringing up a specific consideration about this 
passage.  I'm rather surprised by your line of reasoning.

The antecedent of HE is all creatures, not exclusively the apostles. 
Let's examine a more full context for this passage.

Mark 16:14-20
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and 
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they 
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel 
to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth 
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it 
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall 
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into 
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with 
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

In verse 14, we can see readily that Jesus was speaking to the eleven 
apostles, but in verse 16 Jesus was speaking about those to whom they would 
be preaching.  Verse 15 says, Go ye into all the world, and preach the 
gospel to EVERY CREATURE.  HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE 
SAVED... and then it goes on to explain what signs would follow them that 
believe.

My objections to your suggestion are several:

1.  It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the reading to try 
and make the He of vs. 16 refer to the eleven rather than to every 
creature to whom they preached.

2.  One would then have to conclude that the promise of salvation through 
believing and baptism applies only to the eleven, and that the concept of 
damnation through not believing applied only to the eleven also.  Do you 
think any of the eleven were damned for not believing?

3.  The only way I could possibly view the signs as referring to the eleven 
is if Jesus said, And these signs shall follow them that PREACH.  He did 
not say that.  The text says that these signs shall follow them that 
BELIEVE.  Furthermore, other passages of Scripture show that this is what 
happened, that signs followed others besides the eleven apostles (men like 
Stephen, Philip, Ananias, and also other apostles like Paul and Barnabas, 
and also church elders such as those mentioned in James 5:14-15), and that 
such signs are indicated as being expressed throughout the church in 
passages like 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc.

I'll wait for your response before saying anything more at this time.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

David,
   Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking
specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers.
The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe
to exclusively be the apostles.

Perry

David wrote:

2.  Mark 16:16-20
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of
these signs follow them?  Again, we either have to conclude that the concept
of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of
it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke.  I take
the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith
is.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
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how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

David Miller wrote:
 3. John 14:12
 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth
 on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and
 greater works than these shall he do; because I
 go unto my Father.

 This passage in John indicates that faith results in
 miraculous works on the part of the one who has it.

JD wrote:
 In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage.
 Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible.

Not possible?  Jesus just taught us that they were possible in John 14:12.

JD wrote:
 Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of
 lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal
 ministry, is what is view.

Certainly the work of spreading the gospel throughout the whole world is 
greater than what Jesus did while here in his earthly ministry, but the 
context of the John 14:12 passage concerns works that when examined should 
cause faith that Jesus and the Father are in each other.  He then leads us 
to understand that he who believes in him would also do these same works in 
that they too will have the Father in them and they would be in the Father.

The Biblical record itself gives us some examples of the greater miracles 
done by those who believed in Jesus.

For example, where do we read that people were healed by just the shadow of 
Jesus touching them?  This happened with Peter but not with Jesus.

Acts 5:15-16
(15) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid 
them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by 
might overshadow some of them.
(16) There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto 
Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean 
spirits: and they were healed every one.

Where do we read that handkerchiefs or aprons taken from Jesus were brought 
to the sick and they were healed?  We read this about Paul, but not with 
Jesus.

Acts 19:11-12
(11) And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
(12) So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or 
aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out 
of them.

Are not these some examples of greater works than what Jesus did?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or 
you, I choose the Holy Spirit.



This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not every 
creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached every 
where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also refers 
to the eleven, the same they who went forth.





From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:34:10 -0500

Perry, I appreciate you bringing up a specific consideration about this
passage.  I'm rather surprised by your line of reasoning.

The antecedent of HE is all creatures, not exclusively the apostles.
Let's examine a more full context for this passage.

Mark 16:14-20
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel
to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that 
believeth

not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

In verse 14, we can see readily that Jesus was speaking to the eleven
apostles, but in verse 16 Jesus was speaking about those to whom they would
be preaching.  Verse 15 says, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to EVERY CREATURE.  HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE
SAVED... and then it goes on to explain what signs would follow them that
believe.

My objections to your suggestion are several:

1.  It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the reading to try
and make the He of vs. 16 refer to the eleven rather than to every
creature to whom they preached.


Your comment 1.  It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the 
reading to try and make the He of vs. 16 refer to the eleven.  I find to 
be a specious argument with no basis. It is an opinion, which I appreciate, 
but do not accept.



2.  One would then have to conclude that the promise of salvation through
believing and baptism applies only to the eleven, and that the concept of
damnation through not believing applied only to the eleven also.  Do you
think any of the eleven were damned for not believing?


One does not have to believe that these concepts apply only to the eleven. 
While these passages DO confirm this for the eleven, it does not exclude 
ANYONE. Scripture elsewhere may give further details about others.


None of the 11 were damned (as far as I know) because they all 
believed...however, Judas did not believe, and, yes, he was damned.




3.  The only way I could possibly view the signs as referring to the eleven
is if Jesus said, And these signs shall follow them that PREACH.  He did
not say that.  The text says that these signs shall follow them that
BELIEVE.  Furthermore, other passages of Scripture show that this is what
happened, that signs followed others besides the eleven apostles (men like
Stephen, Philip, Ananias, and also other apostles like Paul and Barnabas,
and also church elders such as those mentioned in James 5:14-15), and that
such signs are indicated as being expressed throughout the church in
passages like 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc.


Sorry jesus did not say it the way you can understand it.

Okay, we confirm that other passages support these things applying to 
others. However, this does NOT mean that the Mark 16 v16-20 have to apply to 
others. (Besides, I have read some accounts of scripture that say v9-20 are 
not in the earliest manuscripts!)


I'll wait for your response before saying anything more at this time.


Dave, this exchange calls out an important point that is currently being 
discussed here on TT. I am sure you believe that the holy Spirit gave you 
your interpretation. And, I am sure the Holy Spirit gave me mine. Now, how 
do we go about resolving this? Who is right? Would the Holy Spirit give both 
you and I different and contradicting understanding? How do you go about 
decideding that what the Holy Spirit told you is the right understanding?


Perry



Peace be with you.
David Miller.


- Original Message -
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

David,
   Regarding your item 2, we

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


In fact, you appeal to your brand of reason in your posts much more often than you do scripture.Your response , below, is typical judyLogic. You are an avid anti-intellectual who, as a Bible "student," even rejects the witness of the Greek text. In regards to Mk 16:14-18, you make reference once again, to your anti-intellectual stance by reminding us of your negative opinion concerning "Greek issues" while ignoring the fact I DID NOT make reference to the Greek. 

I made reference to the 14th verse which, for me, settles the question as to who He is addressing.

jd






-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


We don't appeal to logic to understand God's Word JD; but then I shouldn't be surprised since you are so
intoGreek issues ... Everything spoken of in Mark 16:14-18 is spoken of elsewhere. jt

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:55:28 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Linda, you might try reading Mark 16:14-18 before actually making an attempt at an argument from "logic." V. 14 tells us His audience. Who is He talking to? The Christian Church or the 11? A really good second quetion is this: do you think this is the only passage in which the gospel and water baptism are taught? jd
From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?  That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke   I stated that I do in my original post below.   From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org  To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides  Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,  too? izzy-Original Message-  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore  Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry.[Original Message]From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>   Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides   David,   Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speakingspecifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all  believers.The key is to identify the ant ecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I  believeto exclusively be the apostles.   Perry   David wrote:   2. Mark 16:16-20(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that  
believethnot shall be damned.(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall  theycast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, itshall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shallrecover.(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up  intoheaven, and sat on the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord worki ng  withthem, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.   How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen  any  ofthese signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the  concept 
t;   of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular  concept  ofit, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that thispassage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I  takethe position that faith is something more than what most people think  faithis.  --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may  know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  http:// www.InnGlory.org   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a  friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. 
;   --  "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may  know  how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a  friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--  "Let your speech be always with gr ace, seasoned with salt, that you may  know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a  friend who

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

David:Does the WE  (as to the 'greater works') include YOU? I will accept as 
utterly truthful the examples from your own life that you choose to include 
as illustrations.

- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: December 22, 2005 09:48
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

David Miller wrote:

3. John 14:12
(12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth
on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and
greater works than these shall he do; because I
go unto my Father.

This passage in John indicates that faith results in
miraculous works on the part of the one who has it.

JD wrote:

In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage.
Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible.

Not possible?  Jesus just taught us that they were possible in John 14:12.

JD wrote:

Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of
lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal
ministry, is what is view.

Certainly the work of spreading the gospel throughout the whole world is
greater than what Jesus did while here in his earthly ministry, but the
context of the John 14:12 passage concerns works that when examined should
cause faith that Jesus and the Father are in each other.  He then leads us
to understand that he who believes in him would also do these same works 
in
that they too will have the Father in them and they would be in the 
Father.

The Biblical record itself gives us some examples of the greater miracles
done by those who believed in Jesus.

For example, where do we read that people were healed by just the shadow 
of

Jesus touching them?  This happened with Peter but not with Jesus.

Acts 5:15-16
(15) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid
them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by
might overshadow some of them.
(16) There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto
Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean
spirits: and they were healed every one.

Where do we read that handkerchiefs or aprons taken from Jesus were 
brought

to the sick and they were healed?  We read this about Paul, but not with
Jesus.

Acts 19:11-12
(11) And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
(12) So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or
aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out
of them.

Are not these some examples of greater works than what Jesus did?

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Christ does not reference "encompassing" the world. He simply and profoundly sent them into that world. Most of them were lost to any serious historical evaluation. Really, when you think about the lives of the "12," it is very thought provoking. Mark 16 does not bind God to any consideration about the preaching of the gospel to the world. The "word" does not bind God - rather, God binds the word. 

jd

-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

JD; put the Greek aside for a moment and take a deep breath then read the verses
below. Yes the eleven were who Jesus was speaking to at the time but he knew
when he spokethat they alone would not encompass "all the world" - The antecedent
to the word HE below is the one who had heard what they had preached and 
published openly - and in the Ampl Version this would be "every creature of the 
whole human race"

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:18:54 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So Judy has her illumination and the rest of minions have only biblical context. 
The fact of the matter is this: the only ones in the room when Christ spoke these 
words were the 11, as Perry has pointed out. The conclusion should be obvious. 
Thank God none of us have to right to be saved !! jd

From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Antecedent Perry? Only for the apostles? I know dispensationalists teach and
believe this way and they also teach that all four gospels are only for the Jews. 
and just like with healing, if we will not believe we will not receive. Even Jesus
was limited in some places from doing any mighty works because of unbelief.

The Amplified Bible reads:
"And He said to them. Go into all the world, and preach and publish openly
the good news (the Gospel) to every creature (of the whole human race). He
who believes (who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and 
Him Whom it sets forth) and is baptized will be saved (from the penalty of
eternal death); but he who does not believe (who does not adhere to and
trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) will be condemned."

The way I read it the antecedent to the He above which is Vs.16 would be
"every creature of the whole human race" Not too many walk in this kind of
faith but the same signs still accompany those who believe and are faithful
to preach and speak as the oracles of God.

From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Izzy,

 This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus was speaking. There may be other texts that say the same for other believers that v16 says for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do you know of any other verses that apply to all believers?

 This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism is required for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the apostles, we cannot generally say this text applies to anyone else.

 Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the apostles. In v16, when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the apostles). So when 'he' occurs in v16, it refers to "he, of the apostles". Then, he tells them of all the signs and protections they (the apostles) will take with them when they go out.

This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the apostles.

BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me.

Perry


From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 -0600Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles Perry LockeSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesI stated that I do in my original 
post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600  Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy  -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides &
amp; gt; cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message]   From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]   To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org   Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM   Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking   specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers.   The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believe   to exclusively be the apo

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


My point is this: my level of confidence is as great or greater than yours at any time and on any biblical issue . You might take your own advice to heart. Your problem is this -- your theology has no answer for my stated belief nor does it have room for the same degree of confidence as you from one who disagrees with your conclusions. You have no answers , David and it is just now starting to settle home  so you are left with warnings and rebukings. Thee is nowhere else to go. 

jd

jd

-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]  JD wrote:   God is the One who has given me my point   of view on faith, David -- therefore it cannot   be wrong .   Please be careful to represent God accurately, as the Scriptures warn us not  to take the Lord's name in vain. One day you will stand before God and tell  him that he is the One who has given you your point of view on faith. Can  you truly do this in good conscience and without doubt, or is it possible  that God will tell you that he gave you no such viewpoint?   Peace be with you.  David Miller.   --  "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how  you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org   If 
you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend  who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and  he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

JD wrote:
 Exegetical note:  Spirit filling and Spirit baptism are
 the same  experience.

Sometimes Spirit filling might refer to Spirit baptism, but not always. 
Following are some examples where people were filled with the Holy Spirit, 
but this was not the same as the Acts 2 experience of being baptized with 
the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:
(15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither 
wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from 
his mother's womb.
...
(41) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, 
the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
...
(67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and 
prophesied, saying,

In Acts 4:8, Peter is filled with the Holy Ghost but this was subsequent 
to his Spirit baptism in Acts 2.  In Acts 4:31, 7:55,  13:52 we also read 
about believers being filled with the Holy Spirit, but it is not the baptism 
of the Holy Spirit.

JD wrote:
 As Linda has pointed out,  Spirit baptism and
 new birth are not the same experience.

Agreed.

JD wrote:
 The apostles very own baptism in  the Spirit was
 not accompanied by the laying on of hands.
 Cornelius and his houshold did not have the
 accompaniment of laying on of hands.

Yes, but these were unusual ways in which people received the Holy Spirit. 
Acts 11:15 indicates that what happened with the Cornelius household was 
unusual in that it says that the Spirit fell on them, as on us at the 
beginning.  Either nobody else had been receiving the Holy Spirit up to 
that point in time, or there was something unusually about the way that they 
received it.  I take the latter position, that it was unusual for them to 
receive it without preaching / teaching and the laying on of hands.

JD wrote:
 Paul received the filling without hands.

The following passage indicates that Paul received the filling by Ananias 
laying hands on him.

Acts 9:17-18
(17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and PUTTING HIS 
HANDS ON HIM said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto 
thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy 
sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
(18) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he 
received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-22 Thread ttxpress





myth (tantamount, 
perhaps intrinsic, toslade's'chair of Moses'where sitting 
makes ppllike Izzydizzy..like their pappy's office chair rollin' on 
wheels of firea stones throw fromthe Throne,at the right hand 
of Yah..yeh, baby!)

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:24:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:||
 DAVID:Do you believe yourself to occuply the 'chair of warning'? 
||

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry, amen about always believing the Holy Spirit over me, but the Holy 
Spirit will not contradict himself or his Word.  Therefore, if 
contradictions exist, then you have not heard from the Holy Spirit, agreed?

Let's look at the passage again.

Mark 16:14-20
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and 
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they 
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel 
to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth 
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it 
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall 
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into 
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with 
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Jesus is speaking to the eleven.  We agree on this.  Verses 16-18 use 
pronouns such as he, they, and them.  All of these pronouns in these verses 
refer to the creatures to whom they preach.  We know this because the 
context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every 
creature.  He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching, 
because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and 
thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned.  Jesus 
then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe.  Who are 
them that believe?  Those who believe the gospel being preached by the 
eleven.  How can you view this any other way?  What motivates you to 
interpret the passage another way?  Think about that.  What if the passage 
had said, these signs shall follow them that believe:  they shall receive 
joy.  Would you be trying to argue that the joy of salvation applied 
exclusively to the eleven if that were the case?

Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the 
pronouns them and they in verses 19  20 refer back to the eleven.  So I 
agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the 
eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also 
refer to the eleven.  You must consider the text itself and the context. 
Verse 15 says, preach the gospel to every creature.  Next verse says, He 
that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.  Who is the he that 
believeth?  Those to whom they preached, which is EVERY CREATURE.

One more comment:  the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs 
following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven.  The signs 
accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed 
their preaching.  The book of Acts is filled with examples of such.  The 
eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs.  This is a 
matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is 
false because it would contradict the Biblical record.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or
you, I choose the Holy Spirit.

This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not every
creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached every
where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also refers
to the eleven, the same they who went forth.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

I've come to see that you, in a manner similar to Judy, do not see how you 
are perceived. Also, one more time IMO, you do not see yourself well at all.

- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: December 22, 2005 11:19
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

John wrote:

... my level of confidence is as great or greater
than yours at any time and on any biblical issue.

Such a comment tells me that you still don't understand me concerning how
revelation and interpretation are not mutually exclusive events.  I do not
have the same level of confidence on ANY Biblical issue, so it is 
impossible

for you to assert that you have the same level of confidence or greater
concerning ANY Biblical issue.  I am certainly not so arrogant as to 
presume

that my level of confidence concerning any Biblical issue is as great or
greater than yours.  In fact, I suspect that I am not as confident as you 
on

probably most Biblical issues.

JD wrote:

... Your problem is this  --  your theology
has no answer for my stated belief

My theology has a lot of answers for your stated belief, but you are not
hearing me nor believing me on even the introductory aspects of such
answers.  As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you
can't make him drink.

JD wrote:

nor does it have room for the same degree of confidence
as you from one who disagrees with your conclusions.

On the contrary, many people who disagree with my interpretations can have 
a
lot more confidence than me.  What I object to is not a level of 
confidence

in one's interpretation, but to one attributing their opinions to the Holy
Spirit when they have received no such revelation.  Our opinions and
interpretations should be separated from those things revealed to us by 
the

Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit never reveals something to us that is false,
so it is very wrong to say that our viewpoint might be wrong in one 
breath,

then in the next breath claim that the Holy Spirit revealed it to us.  You
should not be trying to convince everyone that the opinions of everyone 
are

subject to error and then in the next breath claim that some opinions come
from the Holy Spirit.  Such cannot be true without impugning the Holy 
Spirit

and making him the revealer of opinions that are fallacious.

JD wrote:

You have no answers, David and it is just now starting
to settle home    so you are left with warnings
and rebukings.  Thee is nowhere else to go.

You misunderstand my reasons for warning you about blasphemy.  It is one
thing to drag me into the mud in your wrangling over words.  It is quite
another thing to pull the Holy Spirit into this fray.  Let us show respect
and honor for the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

OR, OR, OR, DAVID YOU, YOU, YOU HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE SPIRIT! As Iz would 
say...Duh
- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: December 22, 2005 11:07
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry, amen about always believing the Holy Spirit over me, but the Holy
Spirit will not contradict himself or his Word.  Therefore, if
contradictions exist, then you have not heard from the Holy Spirit, 
agreed?

Let's look at the passage again.

Mark 16:14-20
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the 
gospel

to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that 
believeth

not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Jesus is speaking to the eleven.  We agree on this.  Verses 16-18 use
pronouns such as he, they, and them.  All of these pronouns in these 
verses

refer to the creatures to whom they preach.  We know this because the
context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every
creature.  He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching,
because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized 
and
thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. 
Jesus

then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe.  Who are
them that believe?  Those who believe the gospel being preached by the
eleven.  How can you view this any other way?  What motivates you to
interpret the passage another way?  Think about that.  What if the passage
had said, these signs shall follow them that believe:  they shall receive
joy.  Would you be trying to argue that the joy of salvation applied
exclusively to the eleven if that were the case?

Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the
pronouns them and they in verses 19  20 refer back to the eleven.  So I
agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the
eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also
refer to the eleven.  You must consider the text itself and the context.
Verse 15 says, preach the gospel to every creature.  Next verse says, 
He

that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.  Who is the he that
believeth?  Those to whom they preached, which is EVERY CREATURE.

One more comment:  the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs
following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven.  The signs
accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed
their preaching.  The book of Acts is filled with examples of such.  The
eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs.  This is a
matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is
false because it would contradict the Biblical record.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or
you, I choose the Holy Spirit.

This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not 
every
creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached 
every

where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also 
refers

to the eleven, the same they who went forth.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

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Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry:This is really quite simple! It must align itself with David Miller's 
'illumined' understanding.

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: December 22, 2005 12:25
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perry wrote:
 BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this
 understanding to me.

If this is being said in jest, I caution you like I did John that you 
should
be very careful and refrain from this.  Remember the commandment not to 
take
the Lord's name in vain.  It is very important for people to separate 
their
opinions from that which was revealed to them through the Holy Spirit, 
lest

we attribute false revelations to God and falsely represent him to others.
This would be a very serious crime.

  The very night that this was revealed to me I posted a rather lengthy 
description of what I newly understood, regarding these very verses. This 
was probably six months ago. After prayer for understanding about this 
passage, and reading the verses, a totally new understanding was revealed 
to me.

  Now, maybe it was not really revealed to me. Maybe I just had new 
insight of my own manufacture. Maybe I just saw it a different way this 
once. Perhaps the Holy Sopirit had nothing to do with it. Since this 
understanding was so different than what I previously had been taught that 
it means, maybe I just made the assumption the Holy Spirit had revealed it 
to me. Maybe I was just wihfully thinking that the Holy Spirit revealed it 
to me.

  Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy Spirit 
giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head?

Perry

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or
you, I choose the Holy Spirit.

This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not 
every
creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached 
every

where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also 
refers

to the eleven, the same they who went forth.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Lance wrote:
 ... OR, OR, OR, DAVID YOU, YOU, YOU
 HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE SPIRIT!
 As Iz would say...Duh

Duh is right.  Nothing the Spirit would reveal to me would contradict 
Scripture.

Surely you understand that not everything I share on has been revealed to me 
by the Spirit, right?  Surely you know this.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

IMO, David, MOST of that which you share on TT has not been revealed by the 
Spirit.

L
- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: December 22, 2005 13:10
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Lance wrote:

... OR, OR, OR, DAVID YOU, YOU, YOU
HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE SPIRIT!
As Iz would say...Duh

Duh is right.  Nothing the Spirit would reveal to me would contradict
Scripture.

Surely you understand that not everything I share on has been revealed to 
me

by the Spirit, right?  Surely you know this.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry wrote:
 Now, my question to you...how do
 I determine if it was the Holy Spirit
 giving me the understanding, or if it
 was all in my head?

If you have to ask, then I suspect it was all just in your head.  The 
Scriptures say that my sheep know my voice.  Nevertheless, sometimes the 
Spirit is such a gentleman in his speech that we do not realize until later 
that it was the Spirit speaking to us.  Therefore, I would not dismiss it 
completely based upon uncertainty alone.

There are various ways to test a revelation:

1.  Our own familiarity with the voice of the Spirit, as I just explained 
(my sheep know my voice).

2.  The presence of the fruit that comes with it, described in James 
3:13-18.  If a person runs off with a revelation filled with strife and 
envy, then that revelation was not from the Holy Spirit.

3.  The witness of our conscience.

4.  Our ability to have faith in the revelation with 100% certainty. 
Sometimes our unwillingness to believe interferes with this, so the converse 
of this, or our inability to believe, is not determinative.  Only our 
ability to believe is helpful.

5.  The testimony of the spirit bringing the revelation.  For example, if 
the same spirit also leads us away from believing that Jesus Christ is come 
in the flesh, this would be a false spirit and it likely then brings false 
revelation.

6.  Conformity and harmony with the Holy Scriptures and any other revelation 
that we know to be true.

7.  The witness of other mature spirit-filled believers in Christ.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

L wrote:
 IMO, David, MOST of that which you share 
 on TT has not been revealed by the Spirit.

As Izzy and Lance would say:  Duh.  :-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

David wrote:
Jesus is speaking to the eleven.  We agree on this.  Verses 16-18 use
pronouns such as he, they, and them.  All of these pronouns in these verses
refer to the creatures to whom they preach.  We know this because the
context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every
creature.  He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching,
because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and
thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned.
Jesus
then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe.  Who are
them that believe?  Those who believe the gospel being preached by the
eleven.  How can you view this any other way?  What motivates you to
interpret the passage another way?  Think about that.

Perry wrote:
 Sounds to me like you are making a lot of
 assumtions that the text does not contain.

Such as?  Perhaps if you identify the assumptions you are making when you 
read the passage, it might help me see your point.

David wrote:
 What if the passage had said, these signs shall follow them
 that believe:  they shall receive joy.  Would you be trying
 to argue that the joy of salvation applied exclusively to the
 eleven if that were the case?

Perry wrote:
 No. The above is a fallacious argument.  If I say, David
 you are great, it does not mean that other people are not
 great...it just means that at that monment I am telling you
 that you are great...later I may tell some others that they
 are great, too.

I agree with your logical point here, but I think you missed my point. 
Suppose I said the following to you:

Perry, go and preach the gospel to every creature.  He who believes and is 
baptized will be saved and filled with joy.

Would you interpret the He to refer to you, Perry, or would you interpret 
the He to refer to those to whom you preach?  Please offer me an honest 
answer here, assuming we were not discussing the Mark 16 text.  How would 
you interpret such a paragraph that I wrote to you directly?

David wrote:
Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the
pronouns them and they in verses 19  20 refer back to the eleven.  So I
agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the
eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also
refer to the eleven.  You must consider the text itself and the context.
Verse 15 says, preach the gospel to every creature.  Next verse says, He
that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.  Who is the he that
believeth?  Those to whom they preached, which is EVERY CREATURE.

Perry wrote:
 Hasn't Jesus just finished upbraiding the eleven
 for their unbelief that he was seen? THEY are
 the ones that are considered unbelievers at this
 point in the text. So, he tells them their commission,
 then the conditions, then the signs. He that believeth
 refers to the eleven, whom he had just chastised
 for unbelief. He is preparing them for their journey,
 warning them that their unbelief will cause them to be
 damned, and that they must be baptised, too.

Surely they were already baptized.  If not, how do you explain them 
baptizing others without them first being baptized?  Do you really see that 
they had a need to be baptized?  Jesus told Peter he would not wash his 
whole body because he was already clean (John 13:10).

David wrote:
One more comment:  the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs
following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven.  The signs
accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed
their preaching.  The book of Acts is filled with examples of such.  The
eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs.  This is a
matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is
false because it would contradict the Biblical record.

Perry wrote:
 No contradiction in my understanding, Dave.
 I never said the signs were limited to the eleven...
 you imply I say that. I am saying that in v16-20,
 Jesus is only SPEAKING to the eleven about
 themselves, so at this point is speaking of signs
 that will accompany the eleven as they go out.

Sorry for misunderstanding you, Perry.  You had originally written, The key 
is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to 
exclusively be the apostles.  I think you also had said something like, 
the signs in verses 17  18 apply only to the apostles.  The word 
exclusively means excluding others from participation.  Now that I see you 
do not mean to exclude others from also experiencing this, then I wonder why 
you think it important to think that this text here applies only to the 
eleven apostles.  For example, I know of a passage that instructs only the 
12 to preach, but because I know of other passages that indicate others 
should preach, I would not be arguing with someone about how this particular 
admonition to preach was given only to the 12 and should not be taken as

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides




From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]


I don't know if you understand what I am saying, but if you believe that 
the

signs also apply to people other than these eleven, why try and make the
argument that this particular text does not?  Perhaps if you do read it 
this

way, you would be arguing that while you do not see the text as being
applicable to anyone other than the eleven, you believe that we can take it
to apply also to us by extension in that the eleven are examples for us.


David,

  If we make the error of thinking that this text applies, in this instance 
and usage, to other Christians than the 11, even though elsewhere some of 
these signs may be discussed relative to other Christians, then we risk 
making the same error anytime Jesus talks makes a statement, thinking that 
his words apply equally to all. I think understanding this aspect of the 
Bible is very important and very frequently abused. By the way, is there any 
place else in scritpure where Christians (other than the 11 in Mark vv16-20) 
are told they can be bitten by poisonous snakes and not be harmed? If not, 
then I woulkd say this applies to the 11 only...not all Christians.


Perry





Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides





David wrote:
Jesus is speaking to the eleven.  We agree on this.  Verses 16-18 use
pronouns such as he, they, and them.  All of these pronouns in these 
verses

refer to the creatures to whom they preach.  We know this because the
context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every
creature.  He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching,
because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized 
and

thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned.
Jesus
then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe.  Who are
them that believe?  Those who believe the gospel being preached by the
eleven.  How can you view this any other way?  What motivates you to
interpret the passage another way?  Think about that.

Perry wrote:
 Sounds to me like you are making a lot of
 assumtions that the text does not contain.

Such as?  Perhaps if you identify the assumptions you are making when you
read the passage, it might help me see your point.


1. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom 
they preach.


This is an assumption on your part, and I believe to be incorrect.

2. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is 
preaching the gospel to every creature.


I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to 
the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not 
changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided 
for thier unbelief.


3. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching

I think this is a wrong assumption. You can make that assertion ONLY if you 
have incorrectly determined the antecedent to be all creatures. In this 
verse He is telling th 11 WHAT to do, not why they should be doing it.


4. because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized 
and thereby be saved,  while others would not believe and would be damned.


While this may be a true statement in general, it does not follow from #1, 
and fails due to #2. it only makes sense when the ones whom he had just 
upbraided for their unbelief is the antecedent.


5.  Who are them that believe?  Those who believe the gospel being 
preached by the eleven. 


Not quite. He is talking about the 11, whom he just finished upbraiding for 
their unbelief!


6. How can you view this any other way?  What motivates you to interpret 
the passage another way? 


As I said previously, but you are doubting, this understanding of the 
passage was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit.


Perry


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry wrote:
 If we make the error of thinking that this text
 applies, in this instance and usage, to other
 Christians than the 11, even though elsewhere
 some of these signs may be discussed relative
 to other Christians, then we risk making the
 same error anytime Jesus talks makes a statement,
 thinking that his words apply equally to all.
 I think understanding this aspect of the Bible
 is very important and very frequently abused.

I agree with you that this poses a potential problem, but my observations of 
abuse tend to see the opposite, especially among theologians.  They so 
isolate Scriptures to the people spoken to and to the culture in which they 
lived that very little of the Scriptures are viewed as applicable to them. 
For example, many of the passages concerning the work of the Holy Spirit 
were spoken to the eleven disciples in the upper room at the end of the last 
supper.  Some therefore think they do not apply to us today.  I've even 
heard some say that the Holy Spirit is found only in the Bible.  Thankfully, 
Peter made it clear that the promise was for as many as would believe in 
Acts 2:39.

I find God and Jesus Christ to be very fair and impartial.  Very little of 
what he promises to one person does not apply to another who meets the same 
conditions.  For example, Paul was not of the twelve, nor had he ever had 
any personal experience with Jesus Christ's ministry, yet he seems to have 
experienced much of the same promises that the twelve did.  His name won't 
be in the foundations of the New Jerusalem as one of the twelve apostles of 
the Lamb, but most of civilization will remember him anyway.

Perry wrote:
 By the way, is there any place else in scritpure where
 Christians (other than the 11 in Mark vv16-20) are
 told they can be bitten by poisonous snakes and not
 be harmed? If not, then I woulkd say this applies to
 the 11 only...not all Christians.

Well, in Luke 10:19, Jesus spoke something similar to the seventy that he 
had ordained to preach the gospel.  It also is interesting that the only 
example of this happening literally would be with Paul, who was not one of 
the eleven.  We have no direct reference that the eleven ever experienced 
this although we should perhaps assume that they did.  If we assume such for 
them, however, then we might also assume the same for other believers.  One 
might also consider that serpents refers to hypocrite theologians and 
religious leaders (see Mat. 23:33).

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Perry wrote:
 I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures
 to be parenthetical to the rest of the passage, telling
 the apostles their commission, but not changing the
 subject of his address, namely those whom he had
 just upbraided for thier unbelief.

The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by 
the author, John.  John is the one who refers to the eleven as they and 
them.  This is not Jesus addressing anyone.

Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them...  I assume the antecedent of 
He is Jesus.  So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking, up 
to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD 
SPOKEN.  Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of 
they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven.

So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and 
therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach.  When 
Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer to 
the eleven.  Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch to 
saying THEY or THEM?  Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and instead 
of saying YOU says THEY or THEM?  Or is it possible that you assume that 
Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18?

Mark 16:14-20
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and 
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they 
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel 
to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth 
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it 
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall 
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into 
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with 
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


David wrote:
 Jesus is speaking to the eleven.  We agree on this.  Verses 16-18 use
 pronouns such as he, they, and them.  All of these pronouns in these
verses
 refer to the creatures to whom they preach.  We know this because the
 context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every
 creature.  He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching,
 because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized
and
 thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned.
 Jesus
 then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe.  Who are
 them that believe?  Those who believe the gospel being preached by the
 eleven.  How can you view this any other way?  What motivates you to
 interpret the passage another way?  Think about that.

Perry wrote:
  Sounds to me like you are making a lot of
  assumtions that the text does not contain.

Such as?  Perhaps if you identify the assumptions you are making when you
read the passage, it might help me see your point.

1. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom
they preach.

This is an assumption on your part, and I believe to be incorrect.

2. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is
preaching the gospel to every creature.

I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to
the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not
changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided
for thier unbelief.

3. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching

I think this is a wrong assumption. You can make that assertion ONLY if you
have incorrectly determined the antecedent to be all creatures. In this
verse He is telling th 11 WHAT to do, not why they should be doing it.

4. because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized
and thereby be saved,  while others would not believe and would be damned.

While this may be a true statement in general, it does not follow from #1,
and fails due to #2. it only makes sense when the ones whom he had just
upbraided for their unbelief is the antecedent.

5.  Who are them that believe?  Those who believe the gospel being
preached by the eleven. 

Not quite. He is talking about the 11, whom he just finished upbraiding for
their unbelief!

6. How can you view this any other way?  What motivates you to interpret
the passage another way? 

As I said previously, but you are doubting

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-22 Thread Terry Clifton

I don't know fer sure just who is right and who is all wet, but since no 
one that I know of has been healed by my shadow, I ain't about to drink 
any poison.

Terry


Charles Perry Locke wrote:


From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Perry wrote:
 BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this
 understanding to me.

If this is being said in jest, I caution you like I did John that you 
should
be very careful and refrain from this.  Remember the commandment not 
to take
the Lord's name in vain.  It is very important for people to separate 
their
opinions from that which was revealed to them through the Holy 
Spirit, lest
we attribute false revelations to God and falsely represent him to 
others.

This would be a very serious crime.



  The very night that this was revealed to me I posted a rather 
lengthy description of what I newly understood, regarding these very 
verses. This was probably six months ago. After prayer for 
understanding about this passage, and reading the verses, a totally 
new understanding was revealed to me.


  Now, maybe it was not really revealed to me. Maybe I just had new 
insight of my own manufacture. Maybe I just saw it a different way 
this once. Perhaps the Holy Sopirit had nothing to do with it. Since 
this understanding was so different than what I previously had been 
taught that it means, maybe I just made the assumption the Holy Spirit 
had revealed it to me. Maybe I was just wihfully thinking that the 
Holy Spirit revealed it to me.


  Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy 
Spirit giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head?


Perry




--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Practicalities should have no place here on TT.

-- Original message -- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know fer sure just who is right and who is all wet, but since no one that I know of has been healed by my shadow, I ain't about to drink any poison. TerryCharles Perry Locke wrote:From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Perry wrote:BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed thisunderstanding to me. If this is being said in jest, I caution you like I did John that you should be very careful and refrain from this. Remember the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain. It is very important for people to separate their
opinions from that which was revealed to them through the Holy Spirit, lest we attribute false revelations to God and falsely represent him to others. This would be a very serious crime. The very night that this was revealed to me I posted a rather lengthy description of what I newly understood, regarding these very verses. This was probably six months ago. After prayer for understanding about this passage, and reading the verses, a totally new understanding was revealed to me. Now, maybe it was not really revealed to me. Maybe I just had new insight of my own manufacture. Maybe I just saw it a different way this once. Perhaps the Holy Sopirit had nothing to do with it. Since this understanding was so different than what I previously had been taught that it means, maybe I
just made the assumption the Holy Spirit had revealed it to me. Maybe I was just wihfully thinking that the Holy Spirit revealed it to me. Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy Spirit giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head? Perry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides



Comments below:


From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Perry wrote:
 I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical 
to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not 
changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just 
upbraided for thier unbelief.


The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by 
the author, John.  John is the one who refers to the eleven as they 
andthem.  This is not Jesus addressing anyone.


Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the 
author was Mark.


Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them...  I assume the antecedent 
of He is Jesus.  So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking, 
up to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD 
SPOKEN.  Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of 
they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven.


So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and 
therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach.  When 
Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer to 
the eleven.  Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch 
to saying THEY or THEM?  Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and 
instead of saying YOU says THEY or THEM?  Or is it possible that you 
assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18?



David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents embedded...perhaps 
that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me:


(14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat 
at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief 
and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the 
Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen.


(15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into all 
the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


[It is important at this point to recall that Jesus has just upbraided the 
apostles (v14) for their unbelief!]


(16) He [of the eleven] that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but 
he [of the eleven] that believeth not shall be damned.


[notice in verse 17 that the focus changes from the 11 to those of the 
eleven that believe (which turned out to be all of them, I believe). It is 
no longer proper to refer to them as ye since they and them now refers 
to a subset of ye. He cannot say ye without implying ALL of the 11!]


(17) And these signs shall follow them [of the elven] that believe; In my 
name shall they [those of the eleven that believe] cast out devils; they 
[those of the eleven that believe] shall speak with new tongues;


(18) They [those of of the eleven that believe] shall take up serpents; and 
if they [those of of the eleven that believe] drink any deadly thing, it 
shall not hurt them [those of of the eleven that believe]; they [those of of 
the eleven that believe] shall lay hands on the sick, and they [those of of 
the eleven that believe] shall recover.


(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them [the eleven], he [Jesus] 
was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.


(20) And they [the eleven] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord 
working with them [the eleven], and confirming the word with signs 
following. Amen.


That is how it was revealed to me.

As to your earlier reference to Luke 10:19 (in a different post) about the 
70 treading on serpents...the 70 were given a similar commision as was given 
to the 11...so it makes sense that they would receive similar powers.


We cannot assume that if Jesus gave certain powers to the 11, or to the 
seventy, that it automatically means all Christians would have those same 
powers. If it states elsewhere that all Christians are given certain powers, 
then so be it. But when he is talking to the 11, or to the seventy...that is 
to whom is giving the powers. (If you still doubt me, go drink some poison, 
play with some poisonous snakes and scorpions, or walk out in front of a 
speeding vehicle. Do you look left and right before crossing the road? If 
so, doesn't that show a lack of faith in Luke 10:19 and Luke 16:18)


Also, notice that verse 20 affirms my understanding by stating that the 
Apostles did indeed confirm the gospel with the powerss they were 
given...why does it not affirm that those to whom the gospel was preached 
exhibited those signs?


I think we have covered everything and each know what our differences are. 
There is only one thing left to be resolved...which of us was led to our 
understanding by the Holy Spirit? You? Me? Neither? (We have agreed that we 
both could not be led to our respective conclusions by the Holy Spirit.)


Perry


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

David, you recently posted this comment.

There is a distinction between revelation and Biblical interpretation. This is the source of your disagreement with Judy, not believing that God reveals to her knowledge through the Spirit. You even delineate different types of revelation, so how can you say that Biblical interpretation and revelation are the same thing? How can you consider yourself a Pentecostal, but you don't distinguish between revelation and Biblical interpretation?
What did you mean by saying "You even delineate different types of revelation" You would think that if I did this, I would know what you mean by these word. Give me examples of these different revelations , please.

Also, I AM a Pentecostal and I make a difference between revelation and interpretation. Interpretation is what I do (hopefully with God's help) with revelation. But I suspect we use these words very differently.

Interpretations from God are personal and providential in nature and content. They are not intended for the corporate body. As a result of that premise, the Church does not speak for me and there is no such thing as ex-cathedra.

Judy often presents her interpretation or understanding of the text in terms of ex-cathedra, although she would never use that terminology. Her (and you do the same thing) understanding IS the Word of God in revelation -- opponents have not this same truth.A profoundly inadequate conclusion. This is Catholic teaching and when attached to the Church and its leadership , we have the Pope and, in deed, excathedra proclamations. but that , of course, is not why the teaching is misplaced. Rather, it is so because it flies in the face of biblicalexample and presents tradition over and above all otherconsiderations andinterpretations, bringing division and sectarianism into the Body of Christ.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides


David writes: 

The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie, with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he cannot do it. No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some reservation in his spirit. On the other hand, when we perceive with conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it, we can be sure that such a truth is infallible and can never be wrong. For example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint is wrong. It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong.
You base the notionof infallibility on the feeling or conviction of assurance. You have criticized me several times in the past, David, for speaking as if I could not be wrong. And now, it turns out that such conviction is a sure sign that I am right !!!

You must know that I do not think I am wrong in anything that I share. That is assurance. But my intelliect knows that I am not right about all that I believe. That is fact in wating. 

jd

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-21 Thread David Miller

John wrote:
 ... there is nothing that you believe as a
 mater of faith that cannot be wrong.

I see it the opposite, John.  There is nothing I believe as a matter of 
faith that can be wrong.  I'm not expecting you to understand this because 
of our past discussions about faith.  You and I perceive faith very 
differently.  Your concept of faith is very much like that of the 
unregenerate sinners to which I preach.  I don't say that as a slam.  I'm 
just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one 
adopted by most of those in the world.  There is a deeper, Biblical 
understanding of faith as something very spiritual.

Some passages for your consideration:

1.  Mark 11:24, Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, 
when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that believe 
carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental 
acceptance.  How many Christians have there been who have thought they 
prayed and believed, yet they did not receive.  We either have to conclude 
that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word 
believe that is stronger than the common use of that word.

2.  Mark 16:16-20
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth 
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it 
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall 
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into 
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with 
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of 
these signs follow them?  Again, we either have to conclude that the concept 
of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of 
it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this 
passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke.  I take 
the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith 
is.

3.  John 14:12
(12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that 
I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I 
go unto my Father.

This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the 
part of the one who has it.  If this is true, then many of those who say 
they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that 
Jesus did, and greater works too.

4.  Hebrews 11:1
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things 
not seen.

This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance 
and evidence.  In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure 
foundation to which it is attached.

5.  Romans 10:14
(14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how 
shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they 
hear without a preacher?

This passage indicates that faith is based upon knowledge.  People cannot 
just imagine what they want to believe.  They must hear the truth first, 
then faith can come.  Therefore, faith is based upon truth.  If truth can 
never be wrong, and faith can only be held in that which is true, then when 
someone apprehends something by faith, it can never be wrong.

The key here is distinguishing between that which we apprehend by faith and 
that which we simply acknowledge with our mind because of our opinions and 
ideas.  Having some kind of speculation or idea is not faith, no matter how 
much we try to believe it.

The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie, 
with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he 
cannot do it.  No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some 
reservation in his spirit.  On the other hand, when we perceive with 
conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it, 
we can be sure that such a truth is infallible and can never be wrong.  For 
example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute 
conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint 
is wrong.  It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong.

The teaching that any idea held by faith has the possibility of being wrong 
is dangerous.  It is a natural idea and contrary to anyone who walks by the 
Spirit.  The truth is that ideas that come from our objective experiences, 
for example, scientific knowledge, is the kind of knowledge that is 
tentative and provisional.  Those who apply themselves to natural methods of 
learning come to realize

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

God is the One who has given me my point of view on faith, David -- therefore it cannot be wrong .He has given me a very detailed response to your post, here, but it will take some time to put it into script. Perhaps this afternoon when I get back from the shop.
The Bishop

-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith. You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual. Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I
say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe" carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word. 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and
they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I
go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. If this is true, then many of those who say they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that Jesus did, and greater works too. 4. Hebrews 11:1 (1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance and evidence. In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure foundation to which it is attached. 5. Romans 10:14 (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? This passage indicates that faith is based upon knowledge. People cannot just imagine what they w
ant to believe. They must hear the truth first, then faith can come. Therefore, faith is based upon truth. If truth can never be wrong, and faith can only be held in that which is true, then when someone apprehends something by faith, it can never be wrong. The key here is distinguishing between that which we apprehend by faith and that which we simply acknowledge with our mind because of our opinions and ideas. Having some kind of speculation or idea is not faith, no matter how much we try to believe it. The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie, with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he cannot do it. No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some reservation in his spirit. On the other hand, when we perceive with conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it, we can be sure that such a truth is
infallible and can never be wrong. For example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint is wrong. It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong. The teaching that any idea held

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-21 Thread Charles Perry Locke


David,

  Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking 
specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. 
The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe 
to exclusively be the apostles.


Perry

David wrote:

2.  Mark 16:16-20
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of
these signs follow them?  Again, we either have to conclude that the concept
of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of
it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke.  I take
the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith
is.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-21 Thread Dean Moore

cd: I agree Perry.

 [Original Message]
 From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
 Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

 David,

Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking 
 specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all
believers. 
 The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I
believe 
 to exclusively be the apostles.

 Perry

 David wrote:

 2.  Mark 16:16-20
 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth
 not shall be damned.
 (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
 cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
 shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
 recover.
 (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
 heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
 (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
 them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any
of
 these signs follow them?  Again, we either have to conclude that the
concept
 of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept
of
 it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
 passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke.  I take
 the position that faith is something more than what most people think
faith
 is.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides









JD, have you ever been born again
of the Spirit? iz















Huh? I can't pray for what I
don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!
 My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience
for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my
wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt
during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in
. At those times, I am fully aware of the promised
intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me,
David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more
often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read:
spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The
Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the
vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual
knowledge.

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith.
Because I do not agree does not mean that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith, there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1.
You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam.
Really? Oh, I forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!!
Your comparison of my faith to that of unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part -- offered in love, of course.
I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one
What is my perspective of faith, David. Put it into words.
adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual.
In a sentence or two, what is your opinion of biblical faith? Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe" carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word.
There is another explanation. But , before moving on, what is that "something" added to the common use of "believe" that makes such uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff. It is something else to be specific and to answerquestionsthat cut to the chase.
2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
There is no reason to believe that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else. other than the apostles.
How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is.
Again, what is the common Christan view of "faith?" I reject the traditions of men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the Universe. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it.
In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage. Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry , is what is view.
If this is true, then many of those who say they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that Jesus did, and greater works too. but it is not true. 4. Hebrews 11:1 (1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance and evidence. In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure foundation to which it is attached.
No such thing is true. The weak brother in Romans 14 had this very same faith - but he was, in fact, wrong doctrinally speaking. His faith formed

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides









JD, do you ever wonder why you accuse Everyone
Else of being arrogant? iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
6:39 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who
decides



















--
Original message -- 
From: David Miller
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 John wrote: 
  ... there is nothing that you believe as a 
  mater of faith that cannot be wrong. 
 
 I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of 
 faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because 
 of our past discussions about faith. 

Because I do not agree does not mean
that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the
conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our
Faith, there is no substance nor evidential value to what we
believe to be true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews
11:1.

You and I
perceive faith very 
 differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the 
 unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam.

Really? Oh, I
forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!!

Your comparison of my faith to that of
unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who
misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part
-- offered in love, of course. 

I'm 
 just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular
one 

What is my perspective of faith,
David. Put it into words.


 adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical 
 understanding of faith as something very spiritual. 

In a sentence or two, what is your
opinion of biblical faith? 
 
 Some passages for your consideration: 
 
 1. Mark 11:24, Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye
desire, 
 when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 
 
 Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that
believe 
 carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental 
 acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they 
 prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude 
 that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word 
 believe that is stronger than the common use of that word. 

There is another explanation. But
, before moving on, what is that something
added to the common use of believe that makes such
uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write
stuff. It is something else to be specific and to
answerquestionsthat cut to the chase.


 
 2. Mark 16:16-20 
 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth 
 not shall be damned. 
 (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they

 cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 
 (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it 
 shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall 
 recover. 
 (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into 
 heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 
 (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with 
 them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. 

 There is no reason to believe
that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else.
other than the apostles.


 
 How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any
of 
 these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the
concept 
 of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept
of 
 it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this 
 passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take 
 the position that faith is something more than what most people think
faith 
 is. 

Again, what is the common Christan view
of faith? I reject the traditions of
men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is
unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of
the Universe. 
 
 3. John 14:12 
 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works
that 
 I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I

 go unto my Father. 
 
 This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on
the 
 part of the one who has it.

In fact, miracles are
the primary things eliminated from this passage.
Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Revealing the
mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did
not do in His personal ministry , is what is view. 

If
this is true, then many of those who say 
 they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that 
 Jesus did, and greater works too. but it is not true. 
 
 4. Hebrews 11:1 
 (1) Now faith is the substance

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. 

jd

-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 






JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz






Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!  My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides









When were you born again, jd? iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
7:00 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decides







Of course I have. And the illumination of the
Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might
have. I too question your birth. But God
kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. 











jd











-- Original message -- 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]


JD, have you ever been born again
of the Spirit? iz















Huh? I can't pray for what I
don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!
 My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience
for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my
wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt
during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in
. At those times, I am fully aware of the promised
intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me,
David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more
often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read:
spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The
Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the
vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual
knowledge.

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Why do you care? 

-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 








When were you born again, jd? iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. 



jd



-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz






Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!  My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


This is an inaccurate observation. 
jd

-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 








JD, do you ever wonder why you accuse Everyone Else of being arrogant? iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:39 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides






-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]  John wrote:   ... there is nothing that you believe as a   mater of faith that cannot be wrong.   I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of  faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because  of our past discussions about faith. 
Because I do not agree does not mean that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith, there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1.
You and I perceive faith very  differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the  unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam.
Really? Oh, I forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!!
Your comparison of my faith to that of unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part -- offered in love, of course. 
I'm  just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one 
What is my perspective of faith, David. Put it into words.
 adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical  understanding of faith as something very spiritual. 
In a sentence or two, what is your opinion of biblical faith?   Some passages for your consideration:   1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire,  when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."   Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe"  carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental  acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they  prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude  that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word  "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word. 
There is another explanation. But , before moving on, what is that "something" added to the common use of "believe" that makes such uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff. It is something else to be specific and to answerquestionsthat cut to the chase.
  2. Mark 16:16-20  (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth  not shall be damned.  (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they  cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it  shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall  recover.  (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into  heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.  (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with  them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. 
 There is no reason to believe that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else. other than the apostles.
  How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of  these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept  of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of  it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this  passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take  the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith  is. 
Again, what is the common Christan view of "faith?" I reject the traditions of men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the Universe.   3. John 14:12  (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that  I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I  go unto my Father.   This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the  part of the one who has it.
In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage. Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry , is what is view. 
If this is true, then many of those who say  they have faith really do not, because they are not

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides









Because in past posts you seem to have
some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to
say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder
which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your
testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though
I have testified to it in the past. izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
7:08 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decides







Why do you care? 











-- Original message -- 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]


When were you born again, jd? iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
7:00 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decides







Of course I have. And the illumination of the
Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might
have. I too question your birth. But God
kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. 











jd











-- Original message -- 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

JD, have you ever been born again of
the Spirit? iz















Huh? I can't pray for what I
don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!
 My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience
for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my
wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt
during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in
. At those times, I am fully aware of the promised
intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me,
David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more
often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read:
spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The
Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the
vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual
knowledge.

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides









Oh, I forgot to except your friends. izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
7:07 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decides







This is an inaccurate observation. 





jd











-- Original message -- 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]


JD, do you ever wonder why you accuse
Everyone Else of being arrogant? iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
6:39 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who
decides



















--
Original message -- 
From: David Miller
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 John wrote: 
  ... there is nothing that you believe as a 
  mater of faith that cannot be wrong. 
 
 I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of 
 faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because 
 of our past discussions about faith. 

Because I do not agree does not mean
that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the
conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith,
there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be
true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1.

You and I
perceive faith very 
 differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the 
 unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam.

Really? Oh, I
forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!!

Your comparison of my faith to that of
unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who
misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part
-- offered in love, of course. 

I'm 
 just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular
one 

What is my perspective of faith,
David. Put it into words.


 adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical 
 understanding of faith as something very spiritual. 

In a sentence or two, what is your
opinion of biblical faith? 
 
 Some passages for your consideration: 
 
 1. Mark 11:24, Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye
desire, 
 when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 
 
 Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that
believe 
 carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental 
 acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they 
 prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude 
 that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word 
 believe that is stronger than the common use of that word. 

There is another explanation. But
, before moving on, what is that something
added to the common use of believe that makes such
uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff.
It is something else to be specific and to
answerquestionsthat cut to the chase.


 
 2. Mark 16:16-20 
 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth 
 not shall be damned. 
 (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they

 cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 
 (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it 
 shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall 
 recover. 
 (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into 
 heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 
 (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with 
 them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. 

 There is no reason to believe
that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else.
other than the apostles.


 
 How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any
of 
 these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the
concept 
 of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept
of 
 it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this 
 passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take 
 the position that faith is something more than what most people think
faith 
 is. 

Again, what is the common Christan view
of faith? I reject the traditions of
men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is unregenerated
man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the
Universe. 
 
 3. John 14:12 
 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works
that 
 I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I

 go unto my Father. 
 
 This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on
the 
 part of the one who has it.

In fact, miracles are
the primary things eliminated from this passage

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. 

There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. 

jd.

-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 








Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past.. izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Why do you care? 



-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
When were you born again, jd? iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. 



jd



-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz






Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!  My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-21 Thread Charles Perry Locke

I stated that I do in my original post below.

From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600

Perry, so do you think the He in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,
too? izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

cd: I agree Perry.

 [Original Message]
 From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
 Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

 David,

Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking
 specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all
believers.
 The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I
believe
 to exclusively be the apostles.

 Perry

 David wrote:

 2.  Mark 16:16-20
 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth
 not shall be damned.
 (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall 
they

 cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
 shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
 recover.
 (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up 
into

 heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
 (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working 
with

 them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen 
any

of
 these signs follow them?  Again, we either have to conclude that the
concept
 of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular 
concept

of
 it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
 passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke.  I 
take

 the position that faith is something more than what most people think
faith
 is.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know

how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides









Please dont insinuate that I am trying
anything. I am trying only to clarify. I am NOT speaking about baptism in the
Holy Spirit. I am speaking about being Born Again. I presume you know the
difference. If so, please tell me if and when you were Born Again. Thank you,
jd. iz











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
7:34 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decides







You are spending too much time listening to your own personal
bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I
am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even
written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. 











There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to
anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on
this subject. But good try. 











jd.











-- Original message -- 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Because in past posts you seem to have
some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem
to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I
wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear
your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again,
even though I have testified to it in the past... izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
7:08 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decides







Why do you care? 











-- Original message -- 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

When were you born again, jd? iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005
7:00 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who
decides







Of course I have. And the illumination of the
Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might
have. I too question your birth. But God
kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. 











jd











-- Original message -- 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]


JD, have you ever been born again
of the Spirit? iz















Huh? I can't pray for what I
don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !!
 My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience
for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my
wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt
during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in
. At those times, I am fully aware of the promised
intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me,
David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more
often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read:
spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The
Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the
vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual knowledge.

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides

Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?
That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides

I stated that I do in my original post below.

From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600

Perry, so do you think the He in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,
too? izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

cd: I agree Perry.

  [Original Message]
  From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

  David,

 Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking
  specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all
believers.
  The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I
believe
  to exclusively be the apostles.

  Perry

  David wrote:

  2.  Mark 16:16-20
  (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth
  not shall be damned.
  (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall 
they
  cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
  (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
  shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
  recover.
  (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up 
into
  heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
  (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working 
with
  them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

  How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen 
any
of
  these signs follow them?  Again, we either have to conclude that the
concept
  of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular 
concept
of
  it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
  passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke.  I 
take
  the position that faith is something more than what most people think
faith
  is.

  --
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-21 Thread Charles Perry Locke


Izzy,

  This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus was speaking. 
There may be other texts that say the same for other believers that v16 says 
for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do you know of any other verses 
that apply to all believers?


  This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism is required 
for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the apostles, we cannot 
generally say this text applies to anyone else.


 Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the apostles. In v16, 
when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the apostles). So when 
'he' occurs in v16, it refers to he, of the apostles. Then, he tells them 
of all the signs and protections they (the apostles) will take with them 
when they go out.


This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the apostles.

BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me.

Perry



From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 -0600

Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?
That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides

I stated that I do in my original post below.

From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600

Perry, so do you think the He in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,
too? izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

cd: I agree Perry.


  [Original Message]
  From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
 
  David,
 
 Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was 
speaking

  specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all
believers.
  The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I
believe
  to exclusively be the apostles.
 
  Perry
 
  David wrote:
 
  2.  Mark 16:16-20
  (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth
  not shall be damned.
  (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall
they
  cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
  (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, 
it

  shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
  recover.
  (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up
into
  heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
  (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working
with
  them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
 
  How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen
any
of
  these signs follow them?  Again, we either have to conclude that the
concept
  of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular
concept
of
  it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that 
this

  passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke.  I
take
  the position that faith is something more than what most people think
faith
  is.
 
 
  --
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you 
may

know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
 
  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know

how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-21 Thread Judy Taylor






On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:00:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my 
prayer tongue is English?? !! 

The idea JD is that it is an exercise in faith because 
we don't know how to pray as we should so the Spiritintercedes for us before 
the throne of grace - through us - by using our own voice to petition also it 
edifies.

My wife prays in tongues. 

I hope she didn't receive her gift while she was a 
Mormon because these are false tongues.

I have been around the experience for years and years, David. I am 
just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times.

How can you know this? Comparing ourselves 
amongst ourselves only proves we are not wise (though most of us
have done this at some time or other).

Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised 
hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am 
fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. 
God speakst to me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, 
maybe more often. 

There are no second class "believers" JD but still what 
you describe is not the same as what David is speaking about.

But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not 
the center of my "new nature."The Lordship of Christ 
is. 
The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in 
"spiritual knowledge."

There is vanity in the wrong kind of "spiritual 
knowledge" (the occult kind) but I have a hard time accepting that 
the
Lord would be counselling against 
Himself. 
"The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the 
Lord is there is liberty" judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

2005-12-21 Thread Judy Taylor




I find what you've written right here to be confusing 
JD because there is no scriptural pattern for getting the Baptism
of Jesus in the Holy Spirit while "singing a 
song". The apostles believe in and practiced the laying on of 
hands.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:34:26 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  You are spending too much time listening to your own personal 
  bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion 
  I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I 
  have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. 
  There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to 
  anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on 
  this subject. But good try. jd.
  
  From: 
"ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 








Because in past 
posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even 
means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times 
you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have 
been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you 
questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the 
past.. izzy





From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Why do you care? 



  From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  When were you 
  born again, jd? iz
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  
  
  Of course I have. And the 
  illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as 
  anything you might have. I too question your 
  "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His 
  hands.jd
  
  
  
From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

JD, have you 
ever been born again of the Spirit? iz






  Huh? I can't pray 
  for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is 
  English?? !!  My wife prays in 
  tongues. I have been around the experience for years and 
  years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife 
  during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt 
  during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in 
  . At those times, I am fully aware of the 
  promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God 
  speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, 
  who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of 
  Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my 
  "new nature." The Lordship of Christ 
  is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of 
  placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." 
   
  
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides


Linda, you might try reading Mark 16:14-18 before actually making an attempt at an argument from "logic." V. 14 tells us His audience. Who is He talking to? The Christian Church or the 11? A really good second quetion is this: do you think this is the only passage in which the gospel and water baptism are taught? 

jd

-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?  That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz   -Original Message-  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke  Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PM  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides   I stated that I do in my original post below.   From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org  To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides  Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He"
 in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,  too? izzy-Original Message-  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore  Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry.[Original Message]From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>   Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides   David,   Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speakingspecifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all  believers.The key is to identify the ant
ecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I  believeto exclusively be the apostles.   Perry   David wrote:   2. Mark 16:16-20(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that  believethnot shall be damned.(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall  theycast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, itshall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shallrecover.(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up  intoheaven, and sat on the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord worki
ng  withthem, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.   How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen  any  ofthese signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the  conceptof faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular  concept  ofit, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that thispassage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I  takethe position that faith is something more than what most people think  faithis.  --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may  know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  http://
www.InnGlory.org   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a  friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--  "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may  know  how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)  http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a  friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--  "Let your speech be always with gr
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RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides