Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Blainerb: Just for the record, I believe the Lord was speaking to his apostles, but was speaking concerning all whom they taught. That's how I read it too, but I will continue to consider Perry's comments. Blaine wrote: As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof. (Speaking of the power of God to perform miracles) The problem is, there is an almost universal disbelief in God's power to perform miraculous acts. Miracles are commonly reported among Mormon believers--I have experienced a number of them myself--almost always in connection with work in the church. Miracles are common among many of the Christian communities that operate in faith, but this unfortunately is a minority among all the Christians of the world. Most of the Mormons I have known and spoken to do not have direct experience with miracles. Perhaps you can share some of your testimony with us concerning how God has worked miraculously in your Mormon community. I watched a movie not too long ago about a Mormon missonary named John Groberg whose assignment was Tonga. It was called, The Other Side of Heaven. Have you seen it? What do you think of it? It seemed a bit skimpy on the kind of miracles that I hear from most Christian missionaries. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Thank you, jd. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:14 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Sorry for the confusion. It was just that I had been speaking of the Spirit and Spirit baptism when you came into the discussion and asked if I had been born again. I had not realized that your interruption also represented a complete change of subject matter. I was born again on Dec. 27, 1957. I was baptised in the Spirit for the first time while leaving a UPC revival in my black and gold 1988 Chevy Camaro in Dec. of 1997,forty years later.The first healing that was, to me, without question included a lesson God taught me involving therepair of my refrigerator. And my first taste of the Full Gospel began in late 2004 and continues to this day. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please dont insinuate that I am trying anything. I am trying only to clarify. I am NOT speaking about baptism in the Holy Spirit. I am speaking about being Born Again. I presume you know the difference. If so, please tell me if and when you were Born Again. Thank you, jd. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:34 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. jd. -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Why do you care? -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your birth. But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual knowledge.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry, thanks for taking the time. I now understand better how you are reading it, and your reason for why the switch from ye to they and them is reasonable, although I would have expected something more along the lines of those of you for clarity's sake. You asked which of us have been led of the Spirit to our reading. You are the only one who has made a claim of revelation concerning this passage. I'm simply reading it at face value. I will take up what you have shared in prayer and consider it further. At this moment, I still have reservations about it. Does God really give promises to some in the church that he does not give to others? Your rendering leads to the idea that there exists a clergy in the body of Christ which is special to God with special promises. I see the clergy and laity distinction as something that crept into the church later, just as the pope concept did, and the single pastor / ceo of the congregation concept did. It seems to me that I will have to re-examine all my views concerning this if your perspective is right here. I am more than willing to do this. You referenced Luke 16:18 below. Just to make sure I am not missing something you said, did you mean Mark 16:18, kind of like I meant Mark when I typed John? I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Also, to be clear about this, is it your sincere testimony that the Holy Spirit came upon you and gave you this viewpoint? Did you experience some kind of vision or dream that brought this perspective? This is an important witness if you are taking this position. I thought you were perhaps saying this flippantly, as if revelation by the Spirit no longer happens today. Maybe you can tell me more about how this line of thinking came to you. Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Comments below: From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote: I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided for thier unbelief. The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by the author, John. John is the one who refers to the eleven as they andthem. This is not Jesus addressing anyone. Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the author was Mark. Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them... I assume the antecedent of He is Jesus. So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking, up to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD SPOKEN. Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven. So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach. When Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer to the eleven. Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch to saying THEY or THEM? Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and instead of saying YOU says THEY or THEM? Or is it possible that you assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18? David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents embedded...perhaps that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me: (14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen. (15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [It is important at this point to recall that Jesus has just upbraided the apostles (v14) for their unbelief!] (16) He [of the eleven] that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he [of the eleven] that believeth not shall be damned. [notice in verse 17 that the focus changes from the 11 to those of the eleven that believe (which turned out to be all of them, I believe). It is no longer proper to refer to them as ye since they and them now refers to a subset of ye. He cannot say ye without implying ALL of the 11!] (17) And these signs shall follow them [of the elven] that believe; In my name shall they [those of the eleven that believe] cast out devils; they [those of the eleven that believe] shall speak with new tongues; (18) They [those of of the eleven that believe] shall take up serpents; and if they [those of of the eleven that believe] drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them [those of of the eleven that believe]; they [those
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry, I forgot to ask you again to address the situation of baptism in regards to the eleven. Do you think they needed to be baptized again / first time / what? Explain your perception of when they were baptized in the context of, he who believes and is baptized... Also, isn't the context of believe here concerning believing the gospel? They had already believed the gospel that Jesus preached, and they themselves preached had already been preaching it to those specific cities where the Lord had sent them. What they had trouble believing was his bodily resurrection, and their commission to preach was being extended to the whole world and every creature. How do you see it? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
JD wrote: You must know that I do not think I am wrong in anything that I share. That is assurance. This is not assurance in the spiritual and Biblical sense of the word. This is presumption, a counterfeit of faith. I sincerely doubt that anyone has true faith that they are right in anything they share. I know that I would not share very much if this was the case. Some of this dialogue leads us back to how you view faith as emotional while I view faith as rational and spiritual. Faith might bring emotions, but emotions do not bring faith. Emotions bring presumption. Intellect and spirit are the foundation that leads us to faith, IMO. JD wrote: But my intelliect knows that I am not right about all that I believe. I cannot comprehend how you can speak of assurance if your intellect is not in line. True assurance involves the whole person, including both spirit and mind. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David, From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry, thanks for taking the time. I now understand better how you are reading it, and your reason for why the switch from ye to they and them is reasonable, although I would have expected something more along the lines of those of you for clarity's sake. Perhaps They vs Those of you was the translator's choice. Perhaps it is rendered exactly the way the greek says it. You asked which of us have been led of the Spirit to our reading. You are the only one who has made a claim of revelation concerning this passage. I'm simply reading it at face value. I will take up what you have shared in prayer and consider it further. At this moment, I still have reservations about it. Does God really give promises to some in the church that he does not give to others? Your rendering leads to the idea that there exists a clergy in the body of Christ which is special to God with special promises. I see the clergy and laity distinction as something that crept into the church later, just as the pope concept did, and the single pastor / ceo of the congregation concept did. It seems to me that I will have to re-examine all my views concerning this if your perspective is right here. I am more than willing to do this. I think He does give promises to some that he does not give to others. In the days of the early church, I think the those particular signs were given to the apostles to validate their message, and to protect them in carrying out their mission to spread the gospel. Perhaps all of those same signs and protection are not needed by all. Today, not all speak in tongues, not all heal, not all teach. Yet I doubt if the inability to perform any of those signs is an indication of one's position in Christ. You referenced Luke 16:18 below. Just to make sure I am not missing something you said, did you mean Mark 16:18, kind of like I meant Mark when I typed John? I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, I meant Mark. Also, to be clear about this, is it your sincere testimony that the Holy Spirit came upon you and gave you this viewpoint? Did you experience some kind of vision or dream that brought this perspective? This is an important witness if you are taking this position. I thought you were perhaps saying this flippantly, as if revelation by the Spirit no longer happens today. Maybe you can tell me more about how this line of thinking came to you. David, this is going to be a rather drawn out explanation, including some of my history, that I think most are not interested in, and probably a bit more than you are asking for. Let me draw this up and send it to you privately. Perry Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Comments below: From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote: I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided for thier unbelief. The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by the author, John. John is the one who refers to the eleven as they andthem. This is not Jesus addressing anyone. Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the author was Mark. Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them... I assume the antecedent of He is Jesus. So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking, up to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD SPOKEN. Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven. So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach. When Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer to the eleven. Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch to saying THEY or THEM? Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and instead of saying YOU says THEY or THEM? Or is it possible that you assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18? David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents embedded...perhaps that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me: (14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen. (15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [It is important at this point
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Dave, thanks for reminding me. I intended to reply to those questions, but overlooked them in the post. I have no reason to believe that the 11 had been baptised prior to Jesus' appearance to them. I have not read in scripture that any of them were. Of course, there are different types of baptism, and they may have been baptised for the remission of sins, but perhaps not baptised in Jesus' name. You mentioned the washing of Peter's feet...I will read that again and see if I can see any allusion to baptism there...in previous readings I did not. I tend to try not to assign symbolism to very many things, unless it explained as such in scrupture. I feel it is dangerous to assign symbolism where none exists, and that doing so leads to and is a major source of error, especially in understanding the end times. I feel that if there is symbolism, it will either be explained as such (Luke 8:11-15), or will be used in a simile (Matt 13:33), or will be so obvious that it cannot be explained any other way (Matt 24:32,33). As for thier unbelief, I believe that after Jesus' cricifixion and burial they were despondent, and their faith was probaby at a low. I am sure they thought that it was not supposed to go this way (having not fully understood what was meant by Jesus' having to be raised up on the third day). Not believing that the Marys saw Jesus after his butial was tantamount at that point to not believing the gospel (which was not complete, BTW, until he was raised!). His resurrection IS the power of the gospel. Without beleiving that he was raised from the dead, the gosepl is just vain words. All through Acts it is the RESURRECTION is preached, not the crucifixion. The resurrection IS the GOOD NEWS! Praise God for that! So, until they saw the resurrected Jesus, I think they did not fully understand. Thomas is one example of this...he felt free enough to openly state his doubt. In fact, they all had disbelief...that is why he upbraided them when he appeared to them. I think his resurrection is what convinced the apostles of the truth of the gospel...until Jesus was raised, his crucifixion meant to them that their leader and their hopes were forever lost. That is why they did not believe the Marys when they told them they had seen Jesus...had they had fully understood and believed the gospel, they would have believed the Marys. Now, that being said, it makes sense that he would upbraid them for their unbeleif...it also makes sense that he warns them that any of them that do not believe (after now having seen that he was raised) would be damned! NOW they were to beleive and be baptised...into Christ. I hope this is clear...I am not a theologian and often cannot make my thoughts clear in writing. Perry From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:37:08 -0500 Perry, I forgot to ask you again to address the situation of baptism in regards to the eleven. Do you think they needed to be baptized again / first time / what? Explain your perception of when they were baptized in the context of, he who believes and is baptized... Also, isn't the context of believe here concerning believing the gospel? They had already believed the gospel that Jesus preached, and they themselves preached had already been preaching it to those specific cities where the Lord had sent them. What they had trouble believing was his bodily resurrection, and their commission to preach was being extended to the whole world and every creature. How do you see it? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: You must know that I do not think I am wrong in anything that I share. That is assurance. This is not assurance in the spiritual and Biblical sense of the word. This is presumption, a counterfeit of faith. Absolute and utter nonsense. My assurance comes from the Lord. You need to repent of your blasphemy. I sincerely doubt that anyone has true faith that they are right in anything they share. I know that I would not share very much if this was the case. Some of this dialogue leads us back to how you view faith as emotional while I view faith as rational and spiritual. You have not answered my question concerning your view of "spiritual" faith as opposed to the kind of faith you think I have? When you speak of conviction and assurance, you are talking about emotion. And when you imply (in your post to Perry) that the Spirit's workings per I Cor 2 must be a product of some sort of vision or special experience in addition to the "normal" reading of the text with a view to understanding, you add Miller tradition to the equation, you are adding to the Word of God, you are denying the work of the Spirit in the lives of others and attributing their faith tothepower of the Accuser -- which is the unforgivable sin. You need to be very careful here, David, lest you wake up in thepond of fire we know as Hell. Faith might bring emotions, but emotions do not bring faith. Emotions bring presumption. Intellect and spirit are the foundation that leads us to faith, IMO. Ah, the foundation stones of legalism -- and I mean that most sincerely. In Romans 14, the weak brother is "weak" because he is "wrong." His faith, at this point , is NOT based upon truth yet his faith is just that, FAITH, and the actions that arise from this conviction work in his favor. His faith is a saving faith. You do not understand this because you think one's faith must be correct to be legitimate JD wrote: But my intelliect knows that I am not right about all that I believe. I cannot comprehend how you can speak of assurance if your intellect is not in line. True assurance involves the whole person, including both spirit and mind. I am conviced that I am right in all that I believe. I can look to the specifics of each point of doctrine and see no error. BUT, on a grander scale, and taking into consideration I Cor 8:1-3, God is telling me not to take what I know too seriously. Knowledge is not the basis of my relationship withGod in Christ. I have described the situation for all honest disciples of Christ. Integrity demands that I humbily change what I know to be untrue. If I were not fully convinced of my correctness, I would change the teaching immediately. But I have a fallen mind that is under the process of renewal. Becasue of that fact, God has told me not to over confident about my knowing . Lance . Bill , Jonathan, G, all know thatthey could be wrong about everything or anything they beleive. But none of them see error in their specific beleifs OR THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT POINT OF ERROR. JD I speak to you as you speak to others and in the company of love and concern. cribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry wrote: I have no reason to believe that the 11 had been baptised prior to Jesus' appearance to them. John 3:25-26 (25) Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. (26) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John 4:1-2 (1) When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) John 13:8-10 (8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. (9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. (10) Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. Should we not consider the eleven apostles already saved? John 14:16-17 (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because IT SEETH HIM NOT, neither knoweth him: BUT YE KNOW HIM; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. It seems to me that they believed, were baptized, and thereby were delivered from this world system and had come to know the Holy Ghost, although they had not yet been baptized in the Holy Ghost. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote: I have no reason to believe that the 11 had been baptised prior to Jesus' appearance to them. John 3:25-26 (25) Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. (26) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John 4:1-2 (1) When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) It makes sense that if his disciples (assuming the apostles were counted in his disciples) were baptizing, that they themselves had been baptized. But is there not several different baptisms identified in the scripture? What type of baptism do you think his disciples were performing? John was performing baptism for the remittance of sins. Do you think this is the baptism Jesus' disciples were performing? Do you think it possible that when Jesus appeared to the 11, he was referring to a different baptism? Perhaps not ALL of the 11 were baptised at that point. What do you think? John 13:8-10 (8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. (9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. (10) Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. Should we not consider the eleven apostles already saved? I am not confident there is symbolism to baptism in the above verses. Does the greek yield any more information to that effect? John 14:16-17 (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because IT SEETH HIM NOT, neither knoweth him: BUT YE KNOW HIM; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. It seems to me that they believed, were baptized, and thereby were delivered from this world system and had come to know the Holy Ghost, although they had not yet been baptized in the Holy Ghost. Yes, it does imply that. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
jd wrote: How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen anyof these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that theconcept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular conceptof it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people thinkfaith is. Blainerb: Just for the record, I believe the Lord was speaking to his apostles, but was speaking concerning all whom they taught. As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof." (Speaking of the power of God to perform miracles) The problem is, there is an almost universal disbelief in God's power to perform miraculous acts. Miracles are commonly reported among Mormon believers--I have experienced a number of them myself--almost always in connection with work in the church. In a message dated 12/21/2005 8:24:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I stated that I do in my original post below.From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,too? izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean MooreSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David,Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to allbelievers. The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which Ibelieve to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he thatbelieveth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen anyof these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that theconcept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular conceptof it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people thinkfaith is.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
The writer below is not me. 1. He believes the popular view of faith is the incorrect view -- among Christians!!! proving himself totally out of touch with the Christian community who shares a deeply held belief in the very kind of faith this person defines. 2. this line "that Jesus was bearing false testimony here" is not somethoing I would ever introduce into a discussion with others who disagree withme. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jd wrote: How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen anyof these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that theconcept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular conceptof it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people thinkfaith is. Blainerb: Just for the record, I believe the Lord was speaking to his apostles, but was speaking concerning all whom they taught. As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof." (Speaking of the power of God to perform miracles) The problem is, there is an almost universal disbelief in God's power to perform miraculous acts. Miracles are commonly reported among Mormon believers--I have experienced a number of them myself--almost always in connection with work in the church. In a message dated 12/21/2005 8:24:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I stated that I do in my original post below.From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles,too? izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean MooreSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David,Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to allbelievers. The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which Ibelieve to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he thatbelieveth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen anyof these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that theconcept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular conceptof it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people thinkfaith is.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
true; JCdoesn't see Mormans as Christians--neither do I, Bro On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:49:48 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof."
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
G I want a bat. Small diameter grip. Signiture "Pops-- 2006" Hickory ??? Long and light -- is there such a thing? jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] true; JCdoesn't see Mormans as Christians--neither do I, Bro On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:49:48 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof."
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Maple or ash, Bro--hickory is way too heavy and Blaine bein' light on his feet and lightheaded too probably runs faster than youthink On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 05:36:27 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: G I want a bat. Small diameter grip. Signiture "Pops-- 2006" Hickory ??? Long and light -- is there such a thing? jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] true; JCdoesn't see Mormans as Christians--neither do I, Bro On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:49:48 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof."
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Sorry for the confusion. It was just that I had been speaking of the Spirit and Spirit baptism when you came into the discussion and asked if I had been born again. I had not realized that your interruption also represented a complete change of subject matter. I was "born again" on Dec. 27, 1957. I was baptised in the Spirit for the first time while leaving a UPC revival in my black and gold 1988 Chevy Camaro in Dec. of 1997,forty years later.The first healing that was, to me, without question included a lesson God taught me involving therepair of my refrigerator. And my first taste of the Full Gospel began in late 2004 and continues to this day. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please dont insinuate that I am trying anything. I am trying only to clarify. I am NOT speaking about baptism in the Holy Spirit. I am speaking about being Born Again. I presume you know the difference. If so, please tell me if and when you were Born Again. Thank you, jd. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:34 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. jd. -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Why do you care? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
So Judy has her illumination and the rest of minions have only biblical context. The fact of the matter is this: the only ones in the room when Christ spoke these words were the 11, as Perry has pointed out. The conclusion should be obvious. Thank God none of us have to right to be saved !! jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Antecedent Perry? Only for the apostles? I know dispensationalists teach and believe this way and they also teach that all four gospels are only for the Jews. and just like with healing, if we will not believe we will not receive. Even Jesus was limited in some places from doing any mighty works because of unbelief. The Amplified Bible reads: "And He said to them. Go into all the world, and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature (of the whole human race). He who believes (who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) and is baptized will be saved (from the penalty of eternal death); but he who does not believe (who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) will be condemned." The way I read it the antecedent to the He above which is Vs.16 would be "every creature of the whole human race" Not too many walk in this kind of faith but the same signs still accompany those who believe and are faithful to preach and speak as the oracles of God. From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Izzy, This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus was speaking. There may be other texts that say the same for other believers that v16 says for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do you know of any other verses that apply to all believers? This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism is required for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the apostles, we cannot generally say this text applies to anyone else. Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the apostles. In v16, when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the apostles). So when 'he' occurs in v16, it refers to "he, of the apostles". Then, he tells them of all the signs and protections they (the apostles) will take with them when they go out. This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the apostles. BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me. Perry From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 -0600Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles Perry LockeSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesI stated that I do in my original post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600 Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides & gt; cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have t o conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false te
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:00:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! The idea JD is that it is an exercise in faith because we don't know how to pray as we should so the Spiritintercedes for us before the throne of grace - through us - by using our own voice to petition also it edifies. Huh ??? My wife prays in tongues. I hope she didn't receive her gift while she was a Mormon because these are false tongues. "Tongues" come from God and have nothing to do with the "right church." I have been around the experience for years and years, David. I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. How can you know this?Because I have this Spirit, Judy. And, it has been confirmed to me 100's of times in my 48 years as a disciple.Comparing ourselves amongst ourselves only proves we are not wise (though most of us have done this at some time or other). Huh ?? Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakst to me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. There are no second class "believers" JD but still what you describe is not the same as what David is speaking about. We are talking about the same thing AND apparently you and I are not (who said anything about second class believers -- certainly not me). But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature."The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." There is vanity in the wrong kind of "spiritual knowledge" (the occult kind) but I have a hard time accepting that the Lord would be counselling against Himself. Since I did not suggest such, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am going to guess that neither do you. "The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty" judyt No kidding. The end of legalism as we know it is found in these words of truth !!
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
I refer you to Eph 5:18-19.Exegetical note: Spirit filling and Spirit baptism are the same experience. As Linda has pointed out, Spirit baptism and "new birth" are not the same experience. The apostles very own baptism in the Spirit was not accompanied by the laying on of hands. Cornelius and his houshold did not have the accompaniment of laying on of hands. Paul received the filling without hands. Did laying on of hands play a role in Spirit filling, from time to time, in the biblical account? Of course. But one cannot argue for "patterned activity" in this regard. becaue of the foregoing. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I find what you've written right here to be confusing JD because there is no scriptural pattern for getting the Baptism of Jesus in the Holy Spirit while "singing a song". The apostles believe in and practiced the laying on of hands. On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:34:26 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. jd. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past... izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why do you care? From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands.jd From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
I appeal to Terry to re-introduce himself into the conversation.I just said so and, will do so again. Why would you, David, Judy, Kevin and Dean (not Charles on this one) actually challenge the genuineness of John's 'Sonship'? Is this supposed to be funny? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 21, 2005 20:08 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Why do you care? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
We don't appeal to logic to understand God's Word JD; but then I shouldn't be surprised since you are so intoGreek issues ... Everything spoken of in Mark 16:14-18 is spoken of elsewhere. jt On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:55:28 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Linda, you might try reading Mark 16:14-18 before actually making an attempt at an argument from "logic." V. 14 tells us His audience. Who is He talking to? The Christian Church or the 11? A really good second quetion is this: do you think this is the only passage in which the gospel and water baptism are taught? jd From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized? That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke I stated that I do in my original post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600 Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message]From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers.The key is to identify the ant ecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believeto exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall theycast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up intoheaven, and sat on the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord worki ng with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any ofthese signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept ofit, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I takethe position that faith is something more than what most people think faithis. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http:// www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with gr ace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, t
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:00:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! The idea JD is that it is an exercise in faith because we don't know how to pray as we should so the Spiritintercedes for us before the throne of grace - through us - by using our own voice to petition also it edifies. Huh ??? My wife prays in tongues. I hope she didn't receive her gift while she was a Mormon because these are false tongues. " Tongues" come from God and have nothing to do with the "right church." I said nothing about "churches" tongues are a spiritual gift and the wrong spirit ministers a false gift. Satan has a counterfeit for every gift from Jesus that is real. I have been around the experience for years and years, David. I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. How can you know this? Because I have this Spirit, Judy. And, it has been confirmed to me 100's of times in my 48 years as a disciple. The HolySpirit is not in the business of revealing personal informationabout others except when spiritual discernment is needed andministry is involved. He always functions on a "need to know" basis and All comparing ourselves amongst ourselves does is prove we are not wise (though most of us have done this at some time or other). (See 2 Corinthians 10:12) Huh ?? This is the way of the world; God's ways are the complete opposite. He will often use the least and He tells us to honor the least amongst us. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakst to me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. There are no second class "believers" JD but still what you describe is not the same as what David is speaking about. We are talking about the same thing AND apparently you and I are not (who said anything about second class believers -- certainly not me). You didn't say it JD but sensea note of it in some of what you write; fear of being inferior or something like that which is often overcompensated for with bluster and hype.. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature."The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." There is vanity in the wrong kind of "spiritual knowledge" (the occult kind) but I have a hard time accepting that the Lord would be counselling against Himself. Since I did not suggest such, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am going to guess that neither do you. You didn't say it in those words JD but you do claim the Lord made the above revelation to you; so you are against too much "spiritual knowledge" and follow after men who study and write big books about a dead letter. "The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty" judyt No kidding. The end of legalism as we know it is found in these words of truth !! That verse refers to freedom from spiritual bondage - not antinomianism... as you imply above. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
JD; put the Greek aside for a moment and take a deep breath then read the verses below. Yes the eleven were who Jesus was speaking to at the time but he knew when he spokethat they alone would not encompass "all the world" - The antecedent to the word HE below is the one who had heard what they had preached and published openly - and in the Ampl Version this would be "every creature of the whole human race" On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:18:54 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So Judy has her illumination and the rest of minions have only biblical context. The fact of the matter is this: the only ones in the room when Christ spoke these words were the 11, as Perry has pointed out. The conclusion should be obvious. Thank God none of us have to right to be saved !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Antecedent Perry? Only for the apostles? I know dispensationalists teach and believe this way and they also teach that all four gospels are only for the Jews. and just like with healing, if we will not believe we will not receive. Even Jesus was limited in some places from doing any mighty works because of unbelief. The Amplified Bible reads: "And He said to them. Go into all the world, and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature (of the whole human race). He who believes (who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) and is baptized will be saved (from the penalty of eternal death); but he who does not believe (who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) will be condemned." The way I read it the antecedent to the He above which is Vs.16 would be "every creature of the whole human race" Not too many walk in this kind of faith but the same signs still accompany those who believe and are faithful to preach and speak as the oracles of God. From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Izzy, This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus was speaking. There may be other texts that say the same for other believers that v16 says for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do you know of any other verses that apply to all believers? This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism is required for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the apostles, we cannot generally say this text applies to anyone else. Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the apostles. In v16, when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the apostles). So when 'he' occurs in v16, it refers to "he, of the apostles". Then, he tells them of all the signs and protections they (the apostles) will take with them when they go out. This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the apostles. BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me. Perry From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 -0600Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles Perry LockeSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesI stated that I do in my original post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600 Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides gt; cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry, I appreciate you bringing up a specific consideration about this passage. I'm rather surprised by your line of reasoning. The antecedent of HE is all creatures, not exclusively the apostles. Let's examine a more full context for this passage. Mark 16:14-20 (14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. In verse 14, we can see readily that Jesus was speaking to the eleven apostles, but in verse 16 Jesus was speaking about those to whom they would be preaching. Verse 15 says, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED... and then it goes on to explain what signs would follow them that believe. My objections to your suggestion are several: 1. It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the reading to try and make the He of vs. 16 refer to the eleven rather than to every creature to whom they preached. 2. One would then have to conclude that the promise of salvation through believing and baptism applies only to the eleven, and that the concept of damnation through not believing applied only to the eleven also. Do you think any of the eleven were damned for not believing? 3. The only way I could possibly view the signs as referring to the eleven is if Jesus said, And these signs shall follow them that PREACH. He did not say that. The text says that these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE. Furthermore, other passages of Scripture show that this is what happened, that signs followed others besides the eleven apostles (men like Stephen, Philip, Ananias, and also other apostles like Paul and Barnabas, and also church elders such as those mentioned in James 5:14-15), and that such signs are indicated as being expressed throughout the church in passages like 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc. I'll wait for your response before saying anything more at this time. Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David Miller wrote: 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. JD wrote: In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage. Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Not possible? Jesus just taught us that they were possible in John 14:12. JD wrote: Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry, is what is view. Certainly the work of spreading the gospel throughout the whole world is greater than what Jesus did while here in his earthly ministry, but the context of the John 14:12 passage concerns works that when examined should cause faith that Jesus and the Father are in each other. He then leads us to understand that he who believes in him would also do these same works in that they too will have the Father in them and they would be in the Father. The Biblical record itself gives us some examples of the greater miracles done by those who believed in Jesus. For example, where do we read that people were healed by just the shadow of Jesus touching them? This happened with Peter but not with Jesus. Acts 5:15-16 (15) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. (16) There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. Where do we read that handkerchiefs or aprons taken from Jesus were brought to the sick and they were healed? We read this about Paul, but not with Jesus. Acts 19:11-12 (11) And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: (12) So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Are not these some examples of greater works than what Jesus did? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or you, I choose the Holy Spirit. This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not every creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also refers to the eleven, the same they who went forth. From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:34:10 -0500 Perry, I appreciate you bringing up a specific consideration about this passage. I'm rather surprised by your line of reasoning. The antecedent of HE is all creatures, not exclusively the apostles. Let's examine a more full context for this passage. Mark 16:14-20 (14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. In verse 14, we can see readily that Jesus was speaking to the eleven apostles, but in verse 16 Jesus was speaking about those to whom they would be preaching. Verse 15 says, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED... and then it goes on to explain what signs would follow them that believe. My objections to your suggestion are several: 1. It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the reading to try and make the He of vs. 16 refer to the eleven rather than to every creature to whom they preached. Your comment 1. It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the reading to try and make the He of vs. 16 refer to the eleven. I find to be a specious argument with no basis. It is an opinion, which I appreciate, but do not accept. 2. One would then have to conclude that the promise of salvation through believing and baptism applies only to the eleven, and that the concept of damnation through not believing applied only to the eleven also. Do you think any of the eleven were damned for not believing? One does not have to believe that these concepts apply only to the eleven. While these passages DO confirm this for the eleven, it does not exclude ANYONE. Scripture elsewhere may give further details about others. None of the 11 were damned (as far as I know) because they all believed...however, Judas did not believe, and, yes, he was damned. 3. The only way I could possibly view the signs as referring to the eleven is if Jesus said, And these signs shall follow them that PREACH. He did not say that. The text says that these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE. Furthermore, other passages of Scripture show that this is what happened, that signs followed others besides the eleven apostles (men like Stephen, Philip, Ananias, and also other apostles like Paul and Barnabas, and also church elders such as those mentioned in James 5:14-15), and that such signs are indicated as being expressed throughout the church in passages like 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc. Sorry jesus did not say it the way you can understand it. Okay, we confirm that other passages support these things applying to others. However, this does NOT mean that the Mark 16 v16-20 have to apply to others. (Besides, I have read some accounts of scripture that say v9-20 are not in the earliest manuscripts!) I'll wait for your response before saying anything more at this time. Dave, this exchange calls out an important point that is currently being discussed here on TT. I am sure you believe that the holy Spirit gave you your interpretation. And, I am sure the Holy Spirit gave me mine. Now, how do we go about resolving this? Who is right? Would the Holy Spirit give both you and I different and contradicting understanding? How do you go about decideding that what the Holy Spirit told you is the right understanding? Perry Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
In fact, you appeal to your brand of reason in your posts much more often than you do scripture.Your response , below, is typical judyLogic. You are an avid anti-intellectual who, as a Bible "student," even rejects the witness of the Greek text. In regards to Mk 16:14-18, you make reference once again, to your anti-intellectual stance by reminding us of your negative opinion concerning "Greek issues" while ignoring the fact I DID NOT make reference to the Greek. I made reference to the 14th verse which, for me, settles the question as to who He is addressing. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] We don't appeal to logic to understand God's Word JD; but then I shouldn't be surprised since you are so intoGreek issues ... Everything spoken of in Mark 16:14-18 is spoken of elsewhere. jt On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:55:28 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Linda, you might try reading Mark 16:14-18 before actually making an attempt at an argument from "logic." V. 14 tells us His audience. Who is He talking to? The Christian Church or the 11? A really good second quetion is this: do you think this is the only passage in which the gospel and water baptism are taught? jd From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized? That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke I stated that I do in my original post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry.[Original Message]From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speakingspecifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers.The key is to identify the ant ecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believeto exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believethnot shall be damned.(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall theycast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, itshall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shallrecover.(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up intoheaven, and sat on the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord worki ng withthem, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any ofthese signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept t; of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept ofit, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that thispassage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I takethe position that faith is something more than what most people think faithis. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http:// www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ; -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.-- "Let your speech be always with gr ace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David:Does the WE (as to the 'greater works') include YOU? I will accept as utterly truthful the examples from your own life that you choose to include as illustrations. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 22, 2005 09:48 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David Miller wrote: 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. JD wrote: In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage. Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Not possible? Jesus just taught us that they were possible in John 14:12. JD wrote: Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry, is what is view. Certainly the work of spreading the gospel throughout the whole world is greater than what Jesus did while here in his earthly ministry, but the context of the John 14:12 passage concerns works that when examined should cause faith that Jesus and the Father are in each other. He then leads us to understand that he who believes in him would also do these same works in that they too will have the Father in them and they would be in the Father. The Biblical record itself gives us some examples of the greater miracles done by those who believed in Jesus. For example, where do we read that people were healed by just the shadow of Jesus touching them? This happened with Peter but not with Jesus. Acts 5:15-16 (15) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. (16) There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. Where do we read that handkerchiefs or aprons taken from Jesus were brought to the sick and they were healed? We read this about Paul, but not with Jesus. Acts 19:11-12 (11) And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: (12) So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Are not these some examples of greater works than what Jesus did? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Christ does not reference "encompassing" the world. He simply and profoundly sent them into that world. Most of them were lost to any serious historical evaluation. Really, when you think about the lives of the "12," it is very thought provoking. Mark 16 does not bind God to any consideration about the preaching of the gospel to the world. The "word" does not bind God - rather, God binds the word. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD; put the Greek aside for a moment and take a deep breath then read the verses below. Yes the eleven were who Jesus was speaking to at the time but he knew when he spokethat they alone would not encompass "all the world" - The antecedent to the word HE below is the one who had heard what they had preached and published openly - and in the Ampl Version this would be "every creature of the whole human race" On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:18:54 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So Judy has her illumination and the rest of minions have only biblical context. The fact of the matter is this: the only ones in the room when Christ spoke these words were the 11, as Perry has pointed out. The conclusion should be obvious. Thank God none of us have to right to be saved !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Antecedent Perry? Only for the apostles? I know dispensationalists teach and believe this way and they also teach that all four gospels are only for the Jews. and just like with healing, if we will not believe we will not receive. Even Jesus was limited in some places from doing any mighty works because of unbelief. The Amplified Bible reads: "And He said to them. Go into all the world, and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature (of the whole human race). He who believes (who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) and is baptized will be saved (from the penalty of eternal death); but he who does not believe (who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth) will be condemned." The way I read it the antecedent to the He above which is Vs.16 would be "every creature of the whole human race" Not too many walk in this kind of faith but the same signs still accompany those who believe and are faithful to preach and speak as the oracles of God. From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Izzy, This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus was speaking. There may be other texts that say the same for other believers that v16 says for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do you know of any other verses that apply to all believers? This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism is required for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the apostles, we cannot generally say this text applies to anyone else. Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the apostles. In v16, when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the apostles). So when 'he' occurs in v16, it refers to "he, of the apostles". Then, he tells them of all the signs and protections they (the apostles) will take with them when they go out. This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the apostles. BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me. Perry From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesDate: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 -0600Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized?That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles Perry LockeSent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decidesI stated that I do in my original post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600 Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides & amp; gt; cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apo
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
My point is this: my level of confidence is as great or greater than yours at any time and on any biblical issue . You might take your own advice to heart. Your problem is this -- your theology has no answer for my stated belief nor does it have room for the same degree of confidence as you from one who disagrees with your conclusions. You have no answers , David and it is just now starting to settle home so you are left with warnings and rebukings. Thee is nowhere else to go. jd jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: God is the One who has given me my point of view on faith, David -- therefore it cannot be wrong . Please be careful to represent God accurately, as the Scriptures warn us not to take the Lord's name in vain. One day you will stand before God and tell him that he is the One who has given you your point of view on faith. Can you truly do this in good conscience and without doubt, or is it possible that God will tell you that he gave you no such viewpoint? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
JD wrote: Exegetical note: Spirit filling and Spirit baptism are the same experience. Sometimes Spirit filling might refer to Spirit baptism, but not always. Following are some examples where people were filled with the Holy Spirit, but this was not the same as the Acts 2 experience of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1: (15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. ... (41) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: ... (67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, In Acts 4:8, Peter is filled with the Holy Ghost but this was subsequent to his Spirit baptism in Acts 2. In Acts 4:31, 7:55, 13:52 we also read about believers being filled with the Holy Spirit, but it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. JD wrote: As Linda has pointed out, Spirit baptism and new birth are not the same experience. Agreed. JD wrote: The apostles very own baptism in the Spirit was not accompanied by the laying on of hands. Cornelius and his houshold did not have the accompaniment of laying on of hands. Yes, but these were unusual ways in which people received the Holy Spirit. Acts 11:15 indicates that what happened with the Cornelius household was unusual in that it says that the Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Either nobody else had been receiving the Holy Spirit up to that point in time, or there was something unusually about the way that they received it. I take the latter position, that it was unusual for them to receive it without preaching / teaching and the laying on of hands. JD wrote: Paul received the filling without hands. The following passage indicates that Paul received the filling by Ananias laying hands on him. Acts 9:17-18 (17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and PUTTING HIS HANDS ON HIM said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. (18) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
myth (tantamount, perhaps intrinsic, toslade's'chair of Moses'where sitting makes ppllike Izzydizzy..like their pappy's office chair rollin' on wheels of firea stones throw fromthe Throne,at the right hand of Yah..yeh, baby!) On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:24:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:|| DAVID:Do you believe yourself to occuply the 'chair of warning'? ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry, amen about always believing the Holy Spirit over me, but the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself or his Word. Therefore, if contradictions exist, then you have not heard from the Holy Spirit, agreed? Let's look at the passage again. Mark 16:14-20 (14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Jesus is speaking to the eleven. We agree on this. Verses 16-18 use pronouns such as he, they, and them. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom they preach. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every creature. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching, because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. Jesus then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe. Who are them that believe? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the eleven. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to interpret the passage another way? Think about that. What if the passage had said, these signs shall follow them that believe: they shall receive joy. Would you be trying to argue that the joy of salvation applied exclusively to the eleven if that were the case? Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the pronouns them and they in verses 19 20 refer back to the eleven. So I agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also refer to the eleven. You must consider the text itself and the context. Verse 15 says, preach the gospel to every creature. Next verse says, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Who is the he that believeth? Those to whom they preached, which is EVERY CREATURE. One more comment: the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven. The signs accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed their preaching. The book of Acts is filled with examples of such. The eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs. This is a matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is false because it would contradict the Biblical record. Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or you, I choose the Holy Spirit. This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not every creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also refers to the eleven, the same they who went forth. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
I've come to see that you, in a manner similar to Judy, do not see how you are perceived. Also, one more time IMO, you do not see yourself well at all. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 22, 2005 11:19 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides John wrote: ... my level of confidence is as great or greater than yours at any time and on any biblical issue. Such a comment tells me that you still don't understand me concerning how revelation and interpretation are not mutually exclusive events. I do not have the same level of confidence on ANY Biblical issue, so it is impossible for you to assert that you have the same level of confidence or greater concerning ANY Biblical issue. I am certainly not so arrogant as to presume that my level of confidence concerning any Biblical issue is as great or greater than yours. In fact, I suspect that I am not as confident as you on probably most Biblical issues. JD wrote: ... Your problem is this -- your theology has no answer for my stated belief My theology has a lot of answers for your stated belief, but you are not hearing me nor believing me on even the introductory aspects of such answers. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. JD wrote: nor does it have room for the same degree of confidence as you from one who disagrees with your conclusions. On the contrary, many people who disagree with my interpretations can have a lot more confidence than me. What I object to is not a level of confidence in one's interpretation, but to one attributing their opinions to the Holy Spirit when they have received no such revelation. Our opinions and interpretations should be separated from those things revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never reveals something to us that is false, so it is very wrong to say that our viewpoint might be wrong in one breath, then in the next breath claim that the Holy Spirit revealed it to us. You should not be trying to convince everyone that the opinions of everyone are subject to error and then in the next breath claim that some opinions come from the Holy Spirit. Such cannot be true without impugning the Holy Spirit and making him the revealer of opinions that are fallacious. JD wrote: You have no answers, David and it is just now starting to settle home so you are left with warnings and rebukings. Thee is nowhere else to go. You misunderstand my reasons for warning you about blasphemy. It is one thing to drag me into the mud in your wrangling over words. It is quite another thing to pull the Holy Spirit into this fray. Let us show respect and honor for the Holy Spirit. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
OR, OR, OR, DAVID YOU, YOU, YOU HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE SPIRIT! As Iz would say...Duh - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 22, 2005 11:07 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Perry, amen about always believing the Holy Spirit over me, but the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself or his Word. Therefore, if contradictions exist, then you have not heard from the Holy Spirit, agreed? Let's look at the passage again. Mark 16:14-20 (14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Jesus is speaking to the eleven. We agree on this. Verses 16-18 use pronouns such as he, they, and them. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom they preach. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every creature. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching, because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. Jesus then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe. Who are them that believe? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the eleven. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to interpret the passage another way? Think about that. What if the passage had said, these signs shall follow them that believe: they shall receive joy. Would you be trying to argue that the joy of salvation applied exclusively to the eleven if that were the case? Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the pronouns them and they in verses 19 20 refer back to the eleven. So I agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also refer to the eleven. You must consider the text itself and the context. Verse 15 says, preach the gospel to every creature. Next verse says, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Who is the he that believeth? Those to whom they preached, which is EVERY CREATURE. One more comment: the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven. The signs accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed their preaching. The book of Acts is filled with examples of such. The eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs. This is a matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is false because it would contradict the Biblical record. Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or you, I choose the Holy Spirit. This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not every creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also refers to the eleven, the same they who went forth. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry:This is really quite simple! It must align itself with David Miller's 'illumined' understanding. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 22, 2005 12:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote: BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me. If this is being said in jest, I caution you like I did John that you should be very careful and refrain from this. Remember the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain. It is very important for people to separate their opinions from that which was revealed to them through the Holy Spirit, lest we attribute false revelations to God and falsely represent him to others. This would be a very serious crime. The very night that this was revealed to me I posted a rather lengthy description of what I newly understood, regarding these very verses. This was probably six months ago. After prayer for understanding about this passage, and reading the verses, a totally new understanding was revealed to me. Now, maybe it was not really revealed to me. Maybe I just had new insight of my own manufacture. Maybe I just saw it a different way this once. Perhaps the Holy Sopirit had nothing to do with it. Since this understanding was so different than what I previously had been taught that it means, maybe I just made the assumption the Holy Spirit had revealed it to me. Maybe I was just wihfully thinking that the Holy Spirit revealed it to me. Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy Spirit giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head? Perry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or you, I choose the Holy Spirit. This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not every creature. This is confirmed in v20: And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. They here also refers to the eleven, the same they who went forth. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Lance wrote: ... OR, OR, OR, DAVID YOU, YOU, YOU HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE SPIRIT! As Iz would say...Duh Duh is right. Nothing the Spirit would reveal to me would contradict Scripture. Surely you understand that not everything I share on has been revealed to me by the Spirit, right? Surely you know this. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
IMO, David, MOST of that which you share on TT has not been revealed by the Spirit. L - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 22, 2005 13:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Lance wrote: ... OR, OR, OR, DAVID YOU, YOU, YOU HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE SPIRIT! As Iz would say...Duh Duh is right. Nothing the Spirit would reveal to me would contradict Scripture. Surely you understand that not everything I share on has been revealed to me by the Spirit, right? Surely you know this. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry wrote: Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy Spirit giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head? If you have to ask, then I suspect it was all just in your head. The Scriptures say that my sheep know my voice. Nevertheless, sometimes the Spirit is such a gentleman in his speech that we do not realize until later that it was the Spirit speaking to us. Therefore, I would not dismiss it completely based upon uncertainty alone. There are various ways to test a revelation: 1. Our own familiarity with the voice of the Spirit, as I just explained (my sheep know my voice). 2. The presence of the fruit that comes with it, described in James 3:13-18. If a person runs off with a revelation filled with strife and envy, then that revelation was not from the Holy Spirit. 3. The witness of our conscience. 4. Our ability to have faith in the revelation with 100% certainty. Sometimes our unwillingness to believe interferes with this, so the converse of this, or our inability to believe, is not determinative. Only our ability to believe is helpful. 5. The testimony of the spirit bringing the revelation. For example, if the same spirit also leads us away from believing that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, this would be a false spirit and it likely then brings false revelation. 6. Conformity and harmony with the Holy Scriptures and any other revelation that we know to be true. 7. The witness of other mature spirit-filled believers in Christ. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
L wrote: IMO, David, MOST of that which you share on TT has not been revealed by the Spirit. As Izzy and Lance would say: Duh. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David wrote: Jesus is speaking to the eleven. We agree on this. Verses 16-18 use pronouns such as he, they, and them. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom they preach. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every creature. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching, because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. Jesus then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe. Who are them that believe? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the eleven. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to interpret the passage another way? Think about that. Perry wrote: Sounds to me like you are making a lot of assumtions that the text does not contain. Such as? Perhaps if you identify the assumptions you are making when you read the passage, it might help me see your point. David wrote: What if the passage had said, these signs shall follow them that believe: they shall receive joy. Would you be trying to argue that the joy of salvation applied exclusively to the eleven if that were the case? Perry wrote: No. The above is a fallacious argument. If I say, David you are great, it does not mean that other people are not great...it just means that at that monment I am telling you that you are great...later I may tell some others that they are great, too. I agree with your logical point here, but I think you missed my point. Suppose I said the following to you: Perry, go and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved and filled with joy. Would you interpret the He to refer to you, Perry, or would you interpret the He to refer to those to whom you preach? Please offer me an honest answer here, assuming we were not discussing the Mark 16 text. How would you interpret such a paragraph that I wrote to you directly? David wrote: Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the pronouns them and they in verses 19 20 refer back to the eleven. So I agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also refer to the eleven. You must consider the text itself and the context. Verse 15 says, preach the gospel to every creature. Next verse says, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Who is the he that believeth? Those to whom they preached, which is EVERY CREATURE. Perry wrote: Hasn't Jesus just finished upbraiding the eleven for their unbelief that he was seen? THEY are the ones that are considered unbelievers at this point in the text. So, he tells them their commission, then the conditions, then the signs. He that believeth refers to the eleven, whom he had just chastised for unbelief. He is preparing them for their journey, warning them that their unbelief will cause them to be damned, and that they must be baptised, too. Surely they were already baptized. If not, how do you explain them baptizing others without them first being baptized? Do you really see that they had a need to be baptized? Jesus told Peter he would not wash his whole body because he was already clean (John 13:10). David wrote: One more comment: the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven. The signs accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed their preaching. The book of Acts is filled with examples of such. The eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs. This is a matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is false because it would contradict the Biblical record. Perry wrote: No contradiction in my understanding, Dave. I never said the signs were limited to the eleven... you imply I say that. I am saying that in v16-20, Jesus is only SPEAKING to the eleven about themselves, so at this point is speaking of signs that will accompany the eleven as they go out. Sorry for misunderstanding you, Perry. You had originally written, The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. I think you also had said something like, the signs in verses 17 18 apply only to the apostles. The word exclusively means excluding others from participation. Now that I see you do not mean to exclude others from also experiencing this, then I wonder why you think it important to think that this text here applies only to the eleven apostles. For example, I know of a passage that instructs only the 12 to preach, but because I know of other passages that indicate others should preach, I would not be arguing with someone about how this particular admonition to preach was given only to the 12 and should not be taken as
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know if you understand what I am saying, but if you believe that the signs also apply to people other than these eleven, why try and make the argument that this particular text does not? Perhaps if you do read it this way, you would be arguing that while you do not see the text as being applicable to anyone other than the eleven, you believe that we can take it to apply also to us by extension in that the eleven are examples for us. David, If we make the error of thinking that this text applies, in this instance and usage, to other Christians than the 11, even though elsewhere some of these signs may be discussed relative to other Christians, then we risk making the same error anytime Jesus talks makes a statement, thinking that his words apply equally to all. I think understanding this aspect of the Bible is very important and very frequently abused. By the way, is there any place else in scritpure where Christians (other than the 11 in Mark vv16-20) are told they can be bitten by poisonous snakes and not be harmed? If not, then I woulkd say this applies to the 11 only...not all Christians. Perry Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David wrote: Jesus is speaking to the eleven. We agree on this. Verses 16-18 use pronouns such as he, they, and them. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom they preach. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every creature. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching, because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. Jesus then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe. Who are them that believe? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the eleven. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to interpret the passage another way? Think about that. Perry wrote: Sounds to me like you are making a lot of assumtions that the text does not contain. Such as? Perhaps if you identify the assumptions you are making when you read the passage, it might help me see your point. 1. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom they preach. This is an assumption on your part, and I believe to be incorrect. 2. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every creature. I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided for thier unbelief. 3. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching I think this is a wrong assumption. You can make that assertion ONLY if you have incorrectly determined the antecedent to be all creatures. In this verse He is telling th 11 WHAT to do, not why they should be doing it. 4. because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. While this may be a true statement in general, it does not follow from #1, and fails due to #2. it only makes sense when the ones whom he had just upbraided for their unbelief is the antecedent. 5. Who are them that believe? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the eleven. Not quite. He is talking about the 11, whom he just finished upbraiding for their unbelief! 6. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to interpret the passage another way? As I said previously, but you are doubting, this understanding of the passage was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. Perry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry wrote: If we make the error of thinking that this text applies, in this instance and usage, to other Christians than the 11, even though elsewhere some of these signs may be discussed relative to other Christians, then we risk making the same error anytime Jesus talks makes a statement, thinking that his words apply equally to all. I think understanding this aspect of the Bible is very important and very frequently abused. I agree with you that this poses a potential problem, but my observations of abuse tend to see the opposite, especially among theologians. They so isolate Scriptures to the people spoken to and to the culture in which they lived that very little of the Scriptures are viewed as applicable to them. For example, many of the passages concerning the work of the Holy Spirit were spoken to the eleven disciples in the upper room at the end of the last supper. Some therefore think they do not apply to us today. I've even heard some say that the Holy Spirit is found only in the Bible. Thankfully, Peter made it clear that the promise was for as many as would believe in Acts 2:39. I find God and Jesus Christ to be very fair and impartial. Very little of what he promises to one person does not apply to another who meets the same conditions. For example, Paul was not of the twelve, nor had he ever had any personal experience with Jesus Christ's ministry, yet he seems to have experienced much of the same promises that the twelve did. His name won't be in the foundations of the New Jerusalem as one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, but most of civilization will remember him anyway. Perry wrote: By the way, is there any place else in scritpure where Christians (other than the 11 in Mark vv16-20) are told they can be bitten by poisonous snakes and not be harmed? If not, then I woulkd say this applies to the 11 only...not all Christians. Well, in Luke 10:19, Jesus spoke something similar to the seventy that he had ordained to preach the gospel. It also is interesting that the only example of this happening literally would be with Paul, who was not one of the eleven. We have no direct reference that the eleven ever experienced this although we should perhaps assume that they did. If we assume such for them, however, then we might also assume the same for other believers. One might also consider that serpents refers to hypocrite theologians and religious leaders (see Mat. 23:33). Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Perry wrote: I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided for thier unbelief. The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by the author, John. John is the one who refers to the eleven as they and them. This is not Jesus addressing anyone. Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them... I assume the antecedent of He is Jesus. So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking, up to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD SPOKEN. Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven. So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach. When Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer to the eleven. Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch to saying THEY or THEM? Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and instead of saying YOU says THEY or THEM? Or is it possible that you assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18? Mark 16:14-20 (14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David wrote: Jesus is speaking to the eleven. We agree on this. Verses 16-18 use pronouns such as he, they, and them. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom they preach. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every creature. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching, because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. Jesus then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe. Who are them that believe? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the eleven. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to interpret the passage another way? Think about that. Perry wrote: Sounds to me like you are making a lot of assumtions that the text does not contain. Such as? Perhaps if you identify the assumptions you are making when you read the passage, it might help me see your point. 1. All of these pronouns in these verses refer to the creatures to whom they preach. This is an assumption on your part, and I believe to be incorrect. 2. We know this because the context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every creature. I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided for thier unbelief. 3. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching I think this is a wrong assumption. You can make that assertion ONLY if you have incorrectly determined the antecedent to be all creatures. In this verse He is telling th 11 WHAT to do, not why they should be doing it. 4. because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. While this may be a true statement in general, it does not follow from #1, and fails due to #2. it only makes sense when the ones whom he had just upbraided for their unbelief is the antecedent. 5. Who are them that believe? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the eleven. Not quite. He is talking about the 11, whom he just finished upbraiding for their unbelief! 6. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to interpret the passage another way? As I said previously, but you are doubting
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
I don't know fer sure just who is right and who is all wet, but since no one that I know of has been healed by my shadow, I ain't about to drink any poison. Terry Charles Perry Locke wrote: From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote: BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me. If this is being said in jest, I caution you like I did John that you should be very careful and refrain from this. Remember the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain. It is very important for people to separate their opinions from that which was revealed to them through the Holy Spirit, lest we attribute false revelations to God and falsely represent him to others. This would be a very serious crime. The very night that this was revealed to me I posted a rather lengthy description of what I newly understood, regarding these very verses. This was probably six months ago. After prayer for understanding about this passage, and reading the verses, a totally new understanding was revealed to me. Now, maybe it was not really revealed to me. Maybe I just had new insight of my own manufacture. Maybe I just saw it a different way this once. Perhaps the Holy Sopirit had nothing to do with it. Since this understanding was so different than what I previously had been taught that it means, maybe I just made the assumption the Holy Spirit had revealed it to me. Maybe I was just wihfully thinking that the Holy Spirit revealed it to me. Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy Spirit giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head? Perry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Practicalities should have no place here on TT. -- Original message -- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know fer sure just who is right and who is all wet, but since no one that I know of has been healed by my shadow, I ain't about to drink any poison. TerryCharles Perry Locke wrote:From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Perry wrote:BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed thisunderstanding to me. If this is being said in jest, I caution you like I did John that you should be very careful and refrain from this. Remember the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain. It is very important for people to separate their opinions from that which was revealed to them through the Holy Spirit, lest we attribute false revelations to God and falsely represent him to others. This would be a very serious crime. The very night that this was revealed to me I posted a rather lengthy description of what I newly understood, regarding these very verses. This was probably six months ago. After prayer for understanding about this passage, and reading the verses, a totally new understanding was revealed to me. Now, maybe it was not really revealed to me. Maybe I just had new insight of my own manufacture. Maybe I just saw it a different way this once. Perhaps the Holy Sopirit had nothing to do with it. Since this understanding was so different than what I previously had been taught that it means, maybe I just made the assumption the Holy Spirit had revealed it to me. Maybe I was just wihfully thinking that the Holy Spirit revealed it to me. Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy Spirit giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head? Perry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Comments below: From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote: I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just upbraided for thier unbelief. The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by the author, John. John is the one who refers to the eleven as they andthem. This is not Jesus addressing anyone. Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the author was Mark. Verse 15 starts with, And HE said unto them... I assume the antecedent of He is Jesus. So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking, up to but not including verse 19 where it says, THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD SPOKEN. Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of they and them switches back to the original, which would be the eleven. So, when he says YE in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and therefore they or them are referring to others to whom they preach. When Jesus is speaking, he would use the word YE again if he meant to refer to the eleven. Why start out talking to them saying Go YE but then switch to saying THEY or THEM? Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and instead of saying YOU says THEY or THEM? Or is it possible that you assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18? David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents embedded...perhaps that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me: (14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen. (15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [It is important at this point to recall that Jesus has just upbraided the apostles (v14) for their unbelief!] (16) He [of the eleven] that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he [of the eleven] that believeth not shall be damned. [notice in verse 17 that the focus changes from the 11 to those of the eleven that believe (which turned out to be all of them, I believe). It is no longer proper to refer to them as ye since they and them now refers to a subset of ye. He cannot say ye without implying ALL of the 11!] (17) And these signs shall follow them [of the elven] that believe; In my name shall they [those of the eleven that believe] cast out devils; they [those of the eleven that believe] shall speak with new tongues; (18) They [those of of the eleven that believe] shall take up serpents; and if they [those of of the eleven that believe] drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them [those of of the eleven that believe]; they [those of of the eleven that believe] shall lay hands on the sick, and they [those of of the eleven that believe] shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them [the eleven], he [Jesus] was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they [the eleven] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them [the eleven], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. That is how it was revealed to me. As to your earlier reference to Luke 10:19 (in a different post) about the 70 treading on serpents...the 70 were given a similar commision as was given to the 11...so it makes sense that they would receive similar powers. We cannot assume that if Jesus gave certain powers to the 11, or to the seventy, that it automatically means all Christians would have those same powers. If it states elsewhere that all Christians are given certain powers, then so be it. But when he is talking to the 11, or to the seventy...that is to whom is giving the powers. (If you still doubt me, go drink some poison, play with some poisonous snakes and scorpions, or walk out in front of a speeding vehicle. Do you look left and right before crossing the road? If so, doesn't that show a lack of faith in Luke 10:19 and Luke 16:18) Also, notice that verse 20 affirms my understanding by stating that the Apostles did indeed confirm the gospel with the powerss they were given...why does it not affirm that those to whom the gospel was preached exhibited those signs? I think we have covered everything and each know what our differences are. There is only one thing left to be resolved...which of us was led to our understanding by the Holy Spirit? You? Me? Neither? (We have agreed that we both could not be led to our respective conclusions by the Holy Spirit.) Perry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David, you recently posted this comment. There is a distinction between revelation and Biblical interpretation. This is the source of your disagreement with Judy, not believing that God reveals to her knowledge through the Spirit. You even delineate different types of revelation, so how can you say that Biblical interpretation and revelation are the same thing? How can you consider yourself a Pentecostal, but you don't distinguish between revelation and Biblical interpretation? What did you mean by saying "You even delineate different types of revelation" You would think that if I did this, I would know what you mean by these word. Give me examples of these different revelations , please. Also, I AM a Pentecostal and I make a difference between revelation and interpretation. Interpretation is what I do (hopefully with God's help) with revelation. But I suspect we use these words very differently. Interpretations from God are personal and providential in nature and content. They are not intended for the corporate body. As a result of that premise, the Church does not speak for me and there is no such thing as ex-cathedra. Judy often presents her interpretation or understanding of the text in terms of ex-cathedra, although she would never use that terminology. Her (and you do the same thing) understanding IS the Word of God in revelation -- opponents have not this same truth.A profoundly inadequate conclusion. This is Catholic teaching and when attached to the Church and its leadership , we have the Pope and, in deed, excathedra proclamations. but that , of course, is not why the teaching is misplaced. Rather, it is so because it flies in the face of biblicalexample and presents tradition over and above all otherconsiderations andinterpretations, bringing division and sectarianism into the Body of Christ. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David writes: The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie, with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he cannot do it. No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some reservation in his spirit. On the other hand, when we perceive with conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it, we can be sure that such a truth is infallible and can never be wrong. For example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint is wrong. It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong. You base the notionof infallibility on the feeling or conviction of assurance. You have criticized me several times in the past, David, for speaking as if I could not be wrong. And now, it turns out that such conviction is a sure sign that I am right !!! You must know that I do not think I am wrong in anything that I share. That is assurance. But my intelliect knows that I am not right about all that I believe. That is fact in wating. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith. You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual. Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that believe carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word believe that is stronger than the common use of that word. 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. If this is true, then many of those who say they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that Jesus did, and greater works too. 4. Hebrews 11:1 (1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance and evidence. In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure foundation to which it is attached. 5. Romans 10:14 (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? This passage indicates that faith is based upon knowledge. People cannot just imagine what they want to believe. They must hear the truth first, then faith can come. Therefore, faith is based upon truth. If truth can never be wrong, and faith can only be held in that which is true, then when someone apprehends something by faith, it can never be wrong. The key here is distinguishing between that which we apprehend by faith and that which we simply acknowledge with our mind because of our opinions and ideas. Having some kind of speculation or idea is not faith, no matter how much we try to believe it. The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie, with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he cannot do it. No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some reservation in his spirit. On the other hand, when we perceive with conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it, we can be sure that such a truth is infallible and can never be wrong. For example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint is wrong. It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong. The teaching that any idea held by faith has the possibility of being wrong is dangerous. It is a natural idea and contrary to anyone who walks by the Spirit. The truth is that ideas that come from our objective experiences, for example, scientific knowledge, is the kind of knowledge that is tentative and provisional. Those who apply themselves to natural methods of learning come to realize
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
God is the One who has given me my point of view on faith, David -- therefore it cannot be wrong .He has given me a very detailed response to your post, here, but it will take some time to put it into script. Perhaps this afternoon when I get back from the shop. The Bishop -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith. You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual. Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe" carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word. 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. If this is true, then many of those who say they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that Jesus did, and greater works too. 4. Hebrews 11:1 (1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance and evidence. In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure foundation to which it is attached. 5. Romans 10:14 (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? This passage indicates that faith is based upon knowledge. People cannot just imagine what they w ant to believe. They must hear the truth first, then faith can come. Therefore, faith is based upon truth. If truth can never be wrong, and faith can only be held in that which is true, then when someone apprehends something by faith, it can never be wrong. The key here is distinguishing between that which we apprehend by faith and that which we simply acknowledge with our mind because of our opinions and ideas. Having some kind of speculation or idea is not faith, no matter how much we try to believe it. The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie, with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he cannot do it. No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some reservation in his spirit. On the other hand, when we perceive with conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it, we can be sure that such a truth is infallible and can never be wrong. For example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint is wrong. It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong. The teaching that any idea held
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual knowledge.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith. Because I do not agree does not mean that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith, there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1. You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. Really? Oh, I forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!! Your comparison of my faith to that of unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part -- offered in love, of course. I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one What is my perspective of faith, David. Put it into words. adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual. In a sentence or two, what is your opinion of biblical faith? Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe" carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word. There is another explanation. But , before moving on, what is that "something" added to the common use of "believe" that makes such uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff. It is something else to be specific and to answerquestionsthat cut to the chase. 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. There is no reason to believe that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else. other than the apostles. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. Again, what is the common Christan view of "faith?" I reject the traditions of men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the Universe. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage. Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry , is what is view. If this is true, then many of those who say they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that Jesus did, and greater works too. but it is not true. 4. Hebrews 11:1 (1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance and evidence. In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure foundation to which it is attached. No such thing is true. The weak brother in Romans 14 had this very same faith - but he was, in fact, wrong doctrinally speaking. His faith formed
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
JD, do you ever wonder why you accuse Everyone Else of being arrogant? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:39 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith. Because I do not agree does not mean that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith, there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1. You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. Really? Oh, I forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!! Your comparison of my faith to that of unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part -- offered in love, of course. I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one What is my perspective of faith, David. Put it into words. adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual. In a sentence or two, what is your opinion of biblical faith? Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that believe carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word believe that is stronger than the common use of that word. There is another explanation. But , before moving on, what is that something added to the common use of believe that makes such uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff. It is something else to be specific and to answerquestionsthat cut to the chase. 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. There is no reason to believe that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else. other than the apostles. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. Again, what is the common Christan view of faith? I reject the traditions of men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the Universe. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage. Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry , is what is view. If this is true, then many of those who say they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that Jesus did, and greater works too. but it is not true. 4. Hebrews 11:1 (1) Now faith is the substance
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your birth. But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual knowledge.
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Why do you care? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
This is an inaccurate observation. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, do you ever wonder why you accuse Everyone Else of being arrogant? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:39 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith. Because I do not agree does not mean that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith, there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1. You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. Really? Oh, I forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!! Your comparison of my faith to that of unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part -- offered in love, of course. I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one What is my perspective of faith, David. Put it into words. adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual. In a sentence or two, what is your opinion of biblical faith? Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe" carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word. There is another explanation. But , before moving on, what is that "something" added to the common use of "believe" that makes such uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff. It is something else to be specific and to answerquestionsthat cut to the chase. 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. There is no reason to believe that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else. other than the apostles. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. Again, what is the common Christan view of "faith?" I reject the traditions of men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the Universe. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage. Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible. Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry , is what is view. If this is true, then many of those who say they have faith really do not, because they are not
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Why do you care? -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your birth. But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual knowledge.
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Oh, I forgot to except your friends. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:07 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides This is an inaccurate observation. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, do you ever wonder why you accuse Everyone Else of being arrogant? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:39 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: ... there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because of our past discussions about faith. Because I do not agree does not mean that I do not understand what you say, David. Without the conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith, there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be true. Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1. You and I perceive faith very differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. Really? Oh, I forgot -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!! Your comparison of my faith to that of unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who misunderstands. Just another arrogant conclusion on your part -- offered in love, of course. I'm just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one What is my perspective of faith, David. Put it into words. adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical understanding of faith as something very spiritual. In a sentence or two, what is your opinion of biblical faith? Some passages for your consideration: 1. Mark 11:24, Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that believe carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word believe that is stronger than the common use of that word. There is another explanation. But , before moving on, what is that something added to the common use of believe that makes such uncommon? As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff. It is something else to be specific and to answerquestionsthat cut to the chase. 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. There is no reason to believe that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else. other than the apostles. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. Again, what is the common Christan view of faith? I reject the traditions of men that insists that they are greater than their Lord. It is unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the Universe. 3. John 14:12 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the part of the one who has it. In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. jd. -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past.. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Why do you care? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge."
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
I stated that I do in my original post below. From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600 Perry, so do you think the He in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Please dont insinuate that I am trying anything. I am trying only to clarify. I am NOT speaking about baptism in the Holy Spirit. I am speaking about being Born Again. I presume you know the difference. If so, please tell me if and when you were Born Again. Thank you, jd. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:34 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. jd. -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past... izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Why do you care? -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your birth. But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my new nature. The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in spiritual knowledge.
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized? That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides I stated that I do in my original post below. From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600 Perry, so do you think the He in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Izzy, This text addresses only the 11 apostles, to whom Jesus was speaking. There may be other texts that say the same for other believers that v16 says for the apostles...but this verse does not. Do you know of any other verses that apply to all believers? This verse (16) is often used as a proof-text that baptism is required for salvation. But, since it is applied only to the apostles, we cannot generally say this text applies to anyone else. Reading v14-v20 will reveal that Jesus is addressing the apostles. In v16, when you see he, replace it with it's antecedent (the apostles). So when 'he' occurs in v16, it refers to he, of the apostles. Then, he tells them of all the signs and protections they (the apostles) will take with them when they go out. This also means that the signs in v17 and v18 apply only to the apostles. BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this understanding to me. Perry From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:20:29 -0600 Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized? That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides I stated that I do in my original post below. From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600 Perry, so do you think the He in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides cd: I agree Perry. [Original Message] From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers. The key is to identify the antecedent of He in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20 (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith is. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:00:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! The idea JD is that it is an exercise in faith because we don't know how to pray as we should so the Spiritintercedes for us before the throne of grace - through us - by using our own voice to petition also it edifies. My wife prays in tongues. I hope she didn't receive her gift while she was a Mormon because these are false tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David. I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. How can you know this? Comparing ourselves amongst ourselves only proves we are not wise (though most of us have done this at some time or other). Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakst to me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. There are no second class "believers" JD but still what you describe is not the same as what David is speaking about. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature."The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." There is vanity in the wrong kind of "spiritual knowledge" (the occult kind) but I have a hard time accepting that the Lord would be counselling against Himself. "The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty" judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
I find what you've written right here to be confusing JD because there is no scriptural pattern for getting the Baptism of Jesus in the Holy Spirit while "singing a song". The apostles believe in and practiced the laying on of hands. On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:34:26 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are spending too much time listening to your own personal bias. Baptism of the Spirit occurs on nearly every occasion I am involved in the singing of song as per Eph 5:18-19. I have even written of my first experience of baptism on this forum. There is no confusion on my part nor do I believe that you can point to anything I have ever written that presents confusion of a personal nature on this subject. But good try. jd. From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Because in past posts you seem to have some confusion about what being born again even means. Sometimes you seem to say you have not been, while other times you claim you have been. So I wonder which is true. If you have been born again I would like to hear your testimony. I didnt know you questioned my being born again, even though I have testified to it in the past.. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why do you care? From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] When were you born again, jd? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Of course I have. And the illumination of the Spirit's presense is just as great and affirming as anything you might have. I too question your "birth." But God kows for sure and I will leave it in His hands.jd From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, have you ever been born again of the Spirit? iz Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Linda, you might try reading Mark 16:14-18 before actually making an attempt at an argument from "logic." V. 14 tells us His audience. Who is He talking to? The Christian Church or the 11? A really good second quetion is this: do you think this is the only passage in which the gospel and water baptism are taught? jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized? That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides I stated that I do in my original post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry.[Original Message]From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speakingspecifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers.The key is to identify the ant ecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believeto exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believethnot shall be damned.(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall theycast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, itshall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shallrecover.(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up intoheaven, and sat on the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord worki ng withthem, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any ofthese signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the conceptof faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept ofit, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that thispassage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I takethe position that faith is something more than what most people think faithis. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http:// www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.-- "Let your speech be always with gr ace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your spe ech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive pos
RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Linda, you might try reading Mark 16:14-18 before actually making an attempt at an argument from "logic." V. 14 tells us His audience. Who is He talking to? The Christian Church or the 11? A really good second quetion is this: do you think this is the only passage in which the gospel and water baptism are taught? jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really So only the apostles are saved if they believe and are baptized? That does not go for anyone since the apostles? iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:24 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides I stated that I do in my original post below. From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Who decides Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:46:19 -0600Perry, so do you think the "He" in verse 16 refers only to the apostles, too? izzy-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decidescd: I agree Perry.[Original Message]From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG> Date: 12/21/2005 5:00:05 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides David, Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speakingspecifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all believers.The key is to identify the ant ecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believeto exclusively be the apostles. Perry David wrote: 2. Mark 16:16-20(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believethnot shall be damned.(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall theycast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, itshall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shallrecover.(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up intoheaven, and sat on the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord worki ng withthem, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any ofthese signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the conceptof faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept ofit, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that thispassage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I takethe position that faith is something more than what most people think faithis. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http:// www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.-- "Let your speech be always with gr ace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your spe ech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive pos
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: My question is this -- when we do disagree on a passage of scripture -- who is right? You with your doctrine of divine illumination? And when you and Judy, believing the very same thing about "spiritual discernment" disagree -- who is right in that case? Obviously it depends upon the specific situation, but if I have received a divine illumination concerning a topic or passage of Scripture, I should not relinquish that understanding simply because someone else has a different perspective. You mean when someone else has a different illumination. The work is to see how it fits in with the illlumintion received by others. So the "perspectives" recieved from illumination can be different from one person to the other , perhaps depending on that persons needs and where she is in terms of maturity (?) So the answer to your last question usually is yes, I am the one who is right, but not to the exclusion of that truthful aspect shared by another. but apparently you do exclude the opinions or beliefs of others based upon what you consider to be "revealed (to you) truth." You believe that we are still under law and I do not. I consider my point to be from God as surely as you do your opinion. I see a dfference between prophetical revelation and providential revelation. And in thatcontext, especiallyprovidential illumination, you and I can have two very different view points that Godcan use to bring both of us into the ssame relationship with Him. Sometimes separating truth from fiction is like whittling on a piece of wood. Please keep in mind also that Revelation / Illumination and Biblical Interpretation are not mutually exclusive. I have never thought otherwise -- in fact, I think they are the same thing. Some people engage in both while others only engage in the latter. There are some, few, who engage only in the former. JD wrote: If you cannot answer these question, the only conclusion one can draw for the time being is that the teaching on "spiritual discerment" versus intellectual interpretation is a false teaching. I have answered your question, and am able to answer with many more words, You JUST NOW answered my question. And I not quite convinced it is an answer. Time will tell. but when you do not hear and understand the basics and choose to mock what few words I have shared already, the rest of the answer cannot be shared. There was nothing to mock until now, in this post, King David. It was a good post up to this point. Peace be with you. D avid Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The failure of the "inspired" on this forum to answer or even try to answer questions concerning their doctrine of "spiritual discernment," its detachment from mental processes, and the infallible nature of its interpretive conclusions gives rise to the importance of a hermeneutical rule that would suggest that in addition to considerations of syntax, semantical concerns, contextual considerations including time, date and cultural histories --- a rule that adds to this mix the weight of the application or lack thereof of our theological conclusion. When we present and teach a conclusion that fails as an applied value [ you all can't answer the questions !!], we expose those conclusions to be untrue or sorely in nee d of serious revisiting. A failure to do so is expressed in the difference between effective interpretation and a heady interpolation of Godly concerns What you do not seem to realize is that you argue from the presumption that your way of interpretation is not only best, but it is the only available option. Yes I do. You ignore important passages such as: 1 Corinthians 2:9-15 (9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishn ess unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. Why would you think I ignore this passage. It happens to be one of my fabs. It is the very reason I study, read form the counsel of others, share on this forum , listen , pray and recommit myself to this same process. Our difference has to do with how this all plays out in the lives of those with the Spirit. At no time do I beleive that you or anyone else possesses truth that cannot be wrong. Your system of learning is not the only one, but you plow forward like a bull in the proverbial china shop thinking that you have it all figured out. Ad hom be damned. Stay on point, please. When someone does not conform to your own system of learning and teaching, you arrogantly assume that they are in error simply because they do not play by your rules of learning and teaching. Even if no answers were given to you, that would not support the rejection of another system of learning. What do you think is my thinking when it comes to illumination and the truth and the beliefs of others who are disciples of Christ? You seem to be saying that I have I Corinthians 2:6-8Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (7) But we speak the wisdom of God IN A MYSTERY, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew ... 1 Corinthians 2:13 (13) Which things also we speak, NOT IN THE WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHETH, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Wow, I ignore "important passages such as .." could have been more precisely written as " you ignore I Co chapter 2:6-15. John wrote: Judy and David do not offer answers to questions posed because they cannot. Wrong, John. I have answered and could answer a lot more,You had not answered at the time I wrote that post. but my answers are not understood by you any better than my 10 year old child understanding the answer to a calculus problem. Ah, I can figure out Bill Taylor, Barth, Torrance, Lance, Terry Clifton, Kevin Deegan - but not you because youranswers areto complicatedfor me (?) Another problem is that you are trying to force the answers into your hermeneutical box and system of learning. Set your box aside and try being like a child all over again and hear what is being said. bleed my brain dry of any competing influences and soak in what you have to say? does that catch your meaning? If not, splain, please. That would be a good step toward understanding spiritual revelation. Baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David Miller wrote: Obviously it depends upon the specific situation, but if I have received a divine illumination concerning a topic or passage of Scripture, I should not relinquish that understanding simply because someone else has a different perspective. John wrote: You mean when someone else has a different illumination. No, revelation does not work exclusive of interpretation. It is very common for people to add their own interpretation to a revelation. This is what causes a lot of the problems. People have to separate the word they receive from the Lord and the interpretations and ponderings that they add to it from their own mind. David Miller wrote: The work is to see how it fits in with the illlumintion received by others. John wrote: So the perspectives recieved from illumination can be different from one person to the other , perhaps depending on that persons needs and where she is in terms of maturity (?) Yes, people receive different aspects and perspectives and through loving one another we can obtain the bigger picture as we put our pieces together. John wrote: but apparently you do exclude the opinions or beliefs of others based upon what you consider to be revealed (to you) truth. Yes, sometimes the opinions and beliefs of others are wrong and must be rejected. We should always receive the opinion of God over the opinion of men. John wrote: You believe that we are still under law and I do not. I do NOT believe that WE are still under law. I certainly am not under law, but I cannot speak for everyone else. John wrote: I consider my point to be from God as surely as you do your opinion. I have no problem with your point that we are not still under law. What I have tried to do in the past is add to what you already know about this. The fact that I am not under the law does not mean that the law has been destroyed or done away with. David Miller wrote: Please keep in mind also that Revelation / Illumination and Biblical Interpretation are not mutually exclusive. John wrote: I have never thought otherwise -- in fact, I think they are the same thing. There is a distinction between revelation and Biblical interpretation. This is the source of your disagreement with Judy, not believing that God reveals to her knowledge through the Spirit. You even delineate different types of revelation, so how can you say that Biblical interpretation and revelation are the same thing? How can you consider yourself a Pentecostal, but you don't distinguish between revelation and Biblical interpretation? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
John wrote: At no time do I beleive that you or anyone else possesses truth that cannot be wrong. By definition, truth cannot be wrong. Therefore, the truth I possess cannot be wrong, neither can the truth that you possess be wrong. If something you hold to is found to be wrong, you can be sure that whatever it was, it was not truth. David Miller wrote: Baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues helps too. John wrote: I have had that experience and spiritual tongue is ENGLISH !!! If you have not spoken in a language that you did not learn and did not understand, then you have not had that experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I've already shared with you the Scriptures, that when one prays in the spirit, his mind is unfruitful. When you pray in a language you understand, you necessarily involve your mind, so that is not speaking in tongues. Furthermore, you cannot pray for the interpretation of what you have spoken if your mind already understands what you have said. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: At no time do I beleive that you or anyone else possesses truth that cannot be wrong. By definition, truth cannot be wrong. Therefore, the truth I possess cannot be wrong, neither can the truth that you possess be wrong. If something you hold to is found to be wrong, you can be sure that whatever it was, it was not truth. My error , here, is that I did not write "truth" as I intended it to be understood. Let me put it to you another way, David there is nothing that you believe as a mater of faith that cannot be wrong. David Miller wrote: Baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues helps too. John wrote: I have had that experience and spiritual tongue is ENGLISH !!! If you have not spoken in a language that you did not learn and did not understand, then you have not had that experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is not a thought that is in line with biblical teaching, my friend. Baptism of the Spirit occurs for me on every occasion, and I mean every occasion that I share songs and hymns in a corporate setting. Eph 5:18-19 is a reference you might consider. My testimony pictures the reality. As far as speaking in "tongues." According to you, my understanding and use of the English language is infintile at best. From your perspective and past insults, English is an unknown tongue for poor old John Smithson. At any rate, the "baptism of the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues" has such poor theological foundation that it, as a doctrine, is quickly vanishing from the scene of the Pentecostal community. I've already shared with you the Scriptures, that when one prays in the spirit, his mind is unfruitful. When you pray in a language you understand, you necessarily involve your mind, so that is not speaking in tongues. Furthermore, you cannot pray for the interpretation of what you have spoken if your mind already understands what you have said. Huh? I can't pray for what I don't understand because my prayer tongue is English?? !! My wife prays in tongues. I have been around the experience for years and years, David.I am just as much in the spirit as my wife during worship times. Time after time I have simply knelt during worship or stood with raised hands and just let it all soak in . At those times, I am fully aware of the promised intervention of the Spirit on my behalf. God speakstto me, David, just as certainly as He does to you and, who knows, maybe more often. But the experience of Spirit filling (read: spirit baptism) is not the center of my "new nature." The Lordship of Christ is. The Lord has revealed to me the vanity of placing too much stock in "spiritual knowledge." Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.