RE: beta testing

[Star Gazer]

I managed to get 3. 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 2:09 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

If you get one ignorant technical support person hang up and call back or ask 
to speak to a supervisor. 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 6:45 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel. 
I’m sorry my note came across as snotty, I did talk to Apple accessibility who 
sent me over to tier 1 support who were absolutely useless, they didn’t even 
know what Bluetooth was, refused to believe that I bought my charger and Iphone 
from actual vendors v. off the back of someone’s truck, and thought voiceover 
was where you talk to the phone. 



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2021 4:16 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: beta testing

Well, without beta testing you have accessibil...@apple.com and for bugs you 
can submit reports to apple.com/feedback. Beta testing is the best way, but 
you’ve got options for not being interested.
Daniel

On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Simon A Fogarty  wrote:
 
Possibly the issue youre having is due to the fact you have an iPhone 12s,
 
Which isnt’ an iPhone available on the world market.
 
Could you mean a 12 or a 12 pro?
 
From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Saturday, 17 April 2021 7:49 am
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing
 
Thank you Daniel. 
I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker. 
I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth. 
The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up. 
Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”. 
Really? 
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Daniel MacDonald
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: beta testing
 
IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing. 
Regards,
Daniel
 
 
On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr  wrote:
I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, iPads, 
iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug reports, and 
share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be connected to the 
same issue.
 
My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
Because of the non disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please 
don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io
 
On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com wrote:
 
I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just from 
bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the screen. 
I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping vs things 
that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile devices with 
their phones.
 
Deidre
 
-- 
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.
 
If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at:  
mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"VIPhone&q

RE: beta testing

[Sieghard Weitzel]

If you get one ignorant technical support person hang up and call back or ask 
to speak to a supervisor.

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 6:45 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel.
I’m sorry my note came across as snotty, I did talk to Apple accessibility who 
sent me over to tier 1 support who were absolutely useless, they didn’t even 
know what Bluetooth was, refused to believe that I bought my charger and Iphone 
from actual vendors v. off the back of someone’s truck, and thought voiceover 
was where you talk to the phone.



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald<mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2021 4:16 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: beta testing

Well, without beta testing you have accessibil...@apple.com and for bugs you 
can submit reports to apple.com/feedback. Beta testing is the best way, but 
you’ve got options for not being interested.
Daniel

On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Simon A Fogarty  wrote:

Possibly the issue youre having is due to the fact you have an iPhone 12s,

Which isnt’ an iPhone available on the world market.

Could you mean a 12 or a 12 pro?

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Saturday, 17 April 2021 7:49 am
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel.
I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker.
I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth.
The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up.
Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”.
Really?


Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald<mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: beta testing

IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing.
Regards,
Daniel


On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr 
mailto:kliph.miller...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, iPads, 
iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug reports, and 
share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be connected to the 
same issue.

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io>Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io>Because of the non disclosure 
agreement, if your not a beta tester, please don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io<mailto:braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io>

On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, 
deidreandlou...@gmail.com<mailto:deidreandlou...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just from 
bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the screen. 
I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping vs things 
that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile devices with 
their phones.

Deidre

--
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mar

RE: beta testing

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Have you called Apple regarding your wireless charging issue? I suspect this is 
very specific to you rphone possibly a hardware defect since if this were a 
wide-spread problem one would have heard about it all over the big tech 
publications.

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 12:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel.
I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker.
I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth.
The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up.
Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”.
Really?


Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald<mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: beta testing

IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing.
Regards,
Daniel


On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr 
mailto:kliph.miller...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, iPads, 
iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug reports, and 
share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be connected to the 
same issue.

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io>Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io>Because of the non disclosure 
agreement, if your not a beta tester, please don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io<mailto:braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io>

On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, 
deidreandlou...@gmail.com<mailto:deidreandlou...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just from 
bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the screen. 
I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping vs things 
that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile devices with 
their phones.

Deidre

--
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at:  
mk...@ucla.edu<mailto:mk...@ucla.edu>. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com<mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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To view this discussion on the web visit 
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather t

RE: beta testing

[Simon A Fogarty]

Sorry what!?

Who this day in age doesn’t know what Bluetooth is?

Hell it’s been around longer than most of the devices we’re talking about on 
the list.

Not knowing about voiceover is something I can kind of understand,

But Bluetooth, really!

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Daniel 
MacDonald
Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2021 1:58 am
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Cc: Daniel Macdonald 
Subject: Re: beta testing

Wow! I think. All apple technical support employees should be trained in 
VoiceOver. To have one not know what bluetooth is probably signifies that they 
were new and just applied for the job and got it, and Apple didn’t have proper 
job requirements. One day, I called Apple Accessibility five times and got new 
employees. I mentioned that I was running the public beta and they asked me 
what the bugs were. Off course, I couldn’t tell them as that’s a violation of 
the non-discloser agreement. Then the last time I called that day, I got the 
head of accessibility technical support. He asked me how good the new staff 
did. I roll him they did well, but they asked me about bugs in beta software 
and explained that is a violation of Apple’s  Non-disclosure agreement. So I 
guess it hit and miss sometimes with Apple Technical support, and unfortunately 
you had a ‘miss’.
Regards,
Daniel



On Apr 16, 2021, at 7:51 PM, Carolyn 
<4carol...@windstream.net<mailto:4carol...@windstream.net>> wrote:

I would have a bird, if I couldn't wireless charge my 11!
c
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
[mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel.

I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker.

I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth.

The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up.

Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”.

Really?





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10



From: Daniel MacDonald <mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: beta testing



IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing.

Regards,

Daniel







On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr 
mailto:kliph.miller...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  
IOS, MacOS, iPads, iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even 
submitted bug reports, and share those bug report numbers so it can be 
referenced and be connected to the same issue.



My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without 
other topics?  That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. 
Subscribe here

only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io<mailto:only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io>
<mailto:only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io> Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs

public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io<mailto:public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io>
<mailto:public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io> Because of the 
non disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please don’t join the 
group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others

braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io<mailto:braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io>
 <mailto:braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io>





On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, 
de

RE: beta testing

[Richard Turner]

For what it is worth, I forwarded the conversation from this list to apple 
Accessibility and requested both managers in Accessibility and regular tech 
support see the notes.
Please, do what I am also going to do, and provide feedback through the 
www.apple.com/feedback<http://www.apple.com/feedback>.
No one from Apple sees anything on this list and they won’t fix an issue if 
they are not aware of it.
I used to have a good contact who was a Apple Manager but he moved on to a 
different position and I lost track of him.

We need to make a good faith effort to get the attention of someone in 
authority as someone working for Apple who did not know what Bluetooth is, 
tells me it is a generic call center and not actually an in-house Apple person.



Richard
"The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what 
they become by it."
- John Ruskin, 1819-1900

Web site: www.turner42.com<http://www.turner42.com>



From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:09 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

I had 3 misses.
Very frustrating and I’m sorry, being new at a job doesn’t excuse those 
mistakes, I called people who are paid to be there, I didn’t ask the local 
homeless guy or a random guy at a bar… these guys should have known better.


Sent from 
Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986=04%7C01%7C%7C7b736655c65d4189070b08d9033cb2b4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637544381492432356%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=0fGsDKDPVIgzOYxSY5e9%2Frvd6w%2F%2FvjfiMHCcaYQzECY%3D=0>
 for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald<mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 9:58 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Daniel Macdonald<mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: beta testing

Wow! I think. All apple technical support employees should be trained in 
VoiceOver. To have one not know what bluetooth is probably signifies that they 
were new and just applied for the job and got it, and Apple didn’t have proper 
job requirements. One day, I called Apple Accessibility five times and got new 
employees. I mentioned that I was running the public beta and they asked me 
what the bugs were. Off course, I couldn’t tell them as that’s a violation of 
the non-discloser agreement. Then the last time I called that day, I got the 
head of accessibility technical support. He asked me how good the new staff 
did. I roll him they did well, but they asked me about bugs in beta software 
and explained that is a violation of Apple’s  Non-disclosure agreement. So I 
guess it hit and miss sometimes with Apple Technical support, and unfortunately 
you had a ‘miss’.
Regards,
Daniel


On Apr 16, 2021, at 7:51 PM, Carolyn 
<4carol...@windstream.net<mailto:4carol...@windstream.net>> wrote:

I would have a bird, if I couldn't wireless charge my 11!
c
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
[mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel.

I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker.

I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth.

The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up.

Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”.

Really?





Sent from Mail 
<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986=04%7C01%7C%7C7b736655c65d4189070b08d9033cb2b4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637544381492432356%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=0fGsDKDPVIgzOYxSY5e9%2Frvd6w%2F%2FvjfiMHCcaYQzECY%3D=0>>
  for Windows 10



From: Daniel MacDonald <mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:viphone@go

RE: beta testing

[Star Gazer]

I had 3 misses. 
Very frustrating and I’m sorry, being new at a job doesn’t excuse those 
mistakes, I called people who are paid to be there, I didn’t ask the local 
homeless guy or a random guy at a bar… these guys should have known better. 


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 9:58 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Cc: Daniel Macdonald
Subject: Re: beta testing

Wow! I think. All apple technical support employees should be trained in 
VoiceOver. To have one not know what bluetooth is probably signifies that they 
were new and just applied for the job and got it, and Apple didn’t have proper 
job requirements. One day, I called Apple Accessibility five times and got new 
employees. I mentioned that I was running the public beta and they asked me 
what the bugs were. Off course, I couldn’t tell them as that’s a violation of 
the non-discloser agreement. Then the last time I called that day, I got the 
head of accessibility technical support. He asked me how good the new staff 
did. I roll him they did well, but they asked me about bugs in beta software 
and explained that is a violation of Apple’s  Non-disclosure agreement. So I 
guess it hit and miss sometimes with Apple Technical support, and unfortunately 
you had a ‘miss’. 
Regards,
Daniel



On Apr 16, 2021, at 7:51 PM, Carolyn <4carol...@windstream.net> wrote:

I would have a bird, if I couldn't wireless charge my 11! 
c
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Star Gazer
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel. 

I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker. 

I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth. 

The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up. 

Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”. 

Really? 





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10



From: Daniel MacDonald <mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
Subject: Re: beta testing



IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing. 

Regards,

Daniel







On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr 
 wrote:

I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, 
MacOS, iPads, iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted 
bug reports, and share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be 
connected to the same issue.

 

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other 
topics?  That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io> Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io> Because of the non 
disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io 
<mailto:braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io> 





On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, 
deidreandlou...@gmail.com<mailto:deidreandlou...@gmail.com>  wrote:

 

I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of 
features  not just from bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping 
and swiping on the screen. I think things have been overlooked in the past in 
regard to swiping vs things that work real well for those using bluetooth 
keyboards or braile devices with their ph

RE: beta testing

[Star Gazer]

Thank you Daniel. 
I’m sorry my note came across as snotty, I did talk to Apple accessibility who 
sent me over to tier 1 support who were absolutely useless, they didn’t even 
know what Bluetooth was, refused to believe that I bought my charger and Iphone 
from actual vendors v. off the back of someone’s truck, and thought voiceover 
was where you talk to the phone. 



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2021 4:16 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: beta testing

Well, without beta testing you have accessibil...@apple.com and for bugs you 
can submit reports to apple.com/feedback. Beta testing is the best way, but 
you’ve got options for not being interested.
Daniel


On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Simon A Fogarty  wrote:
 
Possibly the issue youre having is due to the fact you have an iPhone 12s,
 
Which isnt’ an iPhone available on the world market.
 
Could you mean a 12 or a 12 pro?
 
From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Saturday, 17 April 2021 7:49 am
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing
 
Thank you Daniel. 
I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker. 
I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth. 
The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up. 
Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”. 
Really? 
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Daniel MacDonald
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: beta testing
 
IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing. 
Regards,
Daniel
 
 
On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr  wrote:
I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, iPads, 
iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug reports, and 
share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be connected to the 
same issue.
 
My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
Because of the non disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please 
don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io
 
On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com wrote:
 
I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just from 
bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the screen. 
I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping vs things 
that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile devices with 
their phones.
 
Deidre
 
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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at:  
mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
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The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.
 
If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if

Re: beta testing

[Daniel MacDonald]

Well, without beta testing you have accessibil...@apple.com and for bugs you 
can submit reports to apple.com/feedback. Beta testing is the best way, but 
you’ve got options for not being interested.
Daniel

> On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Simon A Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> 
> Possibly the issue youre having is due to the fact you have an iPhone 12s,
>  
> Which isnt’ an iPhone available on the world market.
>  
> Could you mean a 12 or a 12 pro?
>  
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
> Gazer
> Sent: Saturday, 17 April 2021 7:49 am
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: beta testing
>  
> Thank you Daniel.
> I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
> fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
> also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
> when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker.
> I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
> Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
> understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth.
> The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
> charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t 
> have even brought it up.
> Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
> disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 
> 12’s and I’m told to “just plug it in”.
> Really?
>  
>  
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>  
> From: Daniel MacDonald
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: beta testing
>  
> IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 
> 1 is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta 
> testers alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for 
> betas, I can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the 
> public. Their is a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no 
> everything. It is a violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if 
> you’re not actively beta testing. 
> Regards,
> Daniel
>  
>  
> 
> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr  
> wrote:
> 
> I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, 
> iPads, iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug 
> reports, and share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be 
> connected to the same issue.
>  
> My groups
> User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
> That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
> only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
> Come talk
>  just apple!
> Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
> public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
> Because of the non disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please 
> don’t join the group.
> Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
> braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io
>  
> 
> On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com wrote:
>  
> I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just 
> from bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the 
> screen. I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping 
> vs things that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile 
> devices with their phones.
>  
> Deidre
>  
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "VIPhone" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/004201d73245%24ecc03270%24c6409750%24%40gmail.com.
>  
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of 

RE: beta testing

[Simon A Fogarty]

Possibly the issue youre having is due to the fact you have an iPhone 12s,

Which isnt’ an iPhone available on the world market.

Could you mean a 12 or a 12 pro?

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Star 
Gazer
Sent: Saturday, 17 April 2021 7:49 am
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel.
I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker.
I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth.
The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up.
Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”.
Really?


Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald<mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: beta testing

IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing.
Regards,
Daniel


On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr 
mailto:kliph.miller...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, iPads, 
iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug reports, and 
share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be connected to the 
same issue.

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io>Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io>Because of the non disclosure 
agreement, if your not a beta tester, please don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io<mailto:braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io>

On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, 
deidreandlou...@gmail.com<mailto:deidreandlou...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just from 
bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the screen. 
I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping vs things 
that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile devices with 
their phones.

Deidre

--
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at:  
mk...@ucla.edu<mailto:mk...@ucla.edu>. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com<mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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to 
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To view this discussion on the web visit 
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moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark 

RE: beta testing

[Carolyn]

I would have a bird, if I couldn't wireless charge my 11! 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Star Gazer
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: beta testing

Thank you Daniel. 

I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker. 

I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth. 

The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up. 

Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”. 

Really? 

 

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

From: Daniel MacDonald <mailto:daniel.angus.macdon...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
Subject: Re: beta testing

 

IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing. 

Regards,

Daniel

 





On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr 
 wrote:

I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, 
MacOS, iPads, iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted 
bug reports, and share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be 
connected to the same issue.

 

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other 
topics?  That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io> Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
<mailto:public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io> Because of the non 
disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io 
<mailto:braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io> 





On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com 
<mailto:deidreandlou...@gmail.com>  wrote:

 

I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of 
features  not just from bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping 
and swiping on the screen. I think things have been overlooked in the past in 
regard to swiping vs things that work real well for those using bluetooth 
keyboards or braile devices with their phones.

 

Deidre

 

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the V 
iPhone list.
 
If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this 
list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be 
reached at:  mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> . Your list owner is Cara 
Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
<mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> 
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ 
<http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/> 
--- 
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Google Groups "VIPhone" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from 
it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
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To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/004201d73245%24ecc03270%24c6409750%24%40gm

RE: beta testing

[Star Gazer]

Thank you Daniel. 
I’m not interested in beta testing, though I’d absolutely love it if apple 
fixed whatever issue is causing the Iphone 12’s not to charge wirelessly and 
also if they could make it so you could pick where you wanted voiceover to go 
when using Bluetooth over the speaker or over the phone speaker. 
I talked with apple accessibility on these issues today, they routed me to 
Apple technical support who had never heard of voiceover nor did they 
understand the charging issue, nor did they understand Bluetooth. 
The guy even said to me “just plug it in” when I was trying to describe the 
charging issue, if I wanted to do that and I liked that option I wouldn’t have 
even brought it up. 
Very frustrating to say the least especially as the charging issue wasn’t 
disclosed when I bought my phone, it is apparently very common with Iphone 12’s 
and I’m told to “just plug it in”. 
Really? 


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Daniel MacDonald
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 3:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: beta testing

IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing. 
Regards,
Daniel



On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr  wrote:
I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, iPads, 
iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug reports, and 
share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be connected to the 
same issue.

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
Because of the non disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please 
don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io


On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com wrote:

I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just from 
bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the screen. 
I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping vs things 
that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile devices with 
their phones.
 
Deidre

-- 
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at:  
mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: 
mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor.

Re: beta testing

[Daniel MacDonald]

IOS 15 is around the corner. I’ll start beta testing when the developer beta 1 
is available. Not much is known about the OS, and developers and beta testers 
alike sign a non-discloser agreement and since this list is not for betas, I 
can’t say anything until iOS 15 is officially reliesed to the public. Their is 
a beta list however, and if some join it, we’ll no everything. It is a 
violation of the list guidelines to be subscribed if you’re not actively beta 
testing. 
Regards,
Daniel


> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:41 PM, kliph miller Sr  
> wrote:
> 
> I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, 
> iPads, iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug 
> reports, and share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be 
> connected to the same issue.
> 
> My groups
> User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
> That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
> only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
> Come talk
>  just apple!
> Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
> public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
> Because of the non disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please 
> don’t join the group.
> Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
> braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io
> 
>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just 
>> from bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the 
>> screen. I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping 
>> vs things that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile 
>> devices with their phones.
>>  
>> Deidre
>> 
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Re: beta testing

[kliph miller Sr]

I run a beta list, and we test all betas with all aspects.  IOS, MacOS, iPads, 
iPhones, with and without bluetooth keyboards.  Even submitted bug reports, and 
share those bug report numbers so it can be referenced and be connected to the 
same issue.

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in “only Apple talk and support. Subscribe here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io
 Come talk
 just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io
 Because of the non disclosure 
agreement, if your not a beta tester, please don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io 


> On Apr 15, 2021, at 5:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just 
> from bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the 
> screen. I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping 
> vs things that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile 
> devices with their phones.
>  
> Deidre
> 
> -- 
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> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu . Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you 
> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
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>  
> .

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Re: beta testing

[Mary Otten]

As someone who does not use a display or a keyboard with my phone, I can tell 
you that there are a lot of beta testers who do the same. Would you like to do 
it as well? Do you have a device that’s not your daily device? How about 
joining the party.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 15, 2021, at 3:23 PM, deidreandlou...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just 
> from bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the 
> screen. I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping 
> vs things that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile 
> devices with their phones.
>  
> Deidre
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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beta testing

[deidreandlouise]

I would urge beta testers to do a lot of the testing of features  not just from 
bluetooth keyboards but through touching and tapping and swiping on the screen. 
I think things have been overlooked in the past in regard to swiping vs things 
that work real well for those using bluetooth keyboards or braile devices with 
their phones.

 

Deidre

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mk...@ucla.edu.  Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Christopher Chaltain]

Yes, I'm still experiencing this problem, and did throughout the IOS 9.1 
betas. I did a restore on my iPhone 4S when I upgraded to IOS 9.0, but 
not since, which included the two updates to IOS 9.0, the betas of IOS 
9.1 and now the released version of IOS 9.1. I'll try another restore 
when I get some time, which may not be this weekend.


On 10/23/2015 11:48 PM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote:

Hi Christopher,

With iOS 9.1, do you still have the problem with Voiceover freezing up when a 
headset is connected and you disconnect? This has completely disappeared for me 
ever since iOS 9.1 Beta 4 or 5 I think and in the public release it is also 
working great for me. I would say that iOS 9.1 now (October 23) is as good or 
better than iOS 8.4 was which came out I believe in April or May, maybe even 
June.
I'd really love to know if others who upgraded to 9.1 still experience the 
issue with hanging up a call when the headset is connected. If so, I wonder 
what a total wipe/restore and setting up as a new phone would do.


Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 4:30 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never regretted 
upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose VoiceOver when I answer 
a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes when I reply to an email 
message. I'm still getting by with the work arounds I've uncovered so far, but 
I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend 
the iPhone anymore to another blind person, at least not without letting them 
know about these issues.

On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

Hi,
I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well 
spokenly than me.
Thanks for that.
/Krister


22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:

Everyone,
Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X
last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a
number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from
everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the
masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are
things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that the
focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live 
with.
Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited
for the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.

Wayne

On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that
will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers.
Your target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you
weren't going to do something because of a negative reaction by a
minority of members on this list or in any community then you'd never do 
anything.

You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS
9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails
is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've
come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on
this list about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We
all don't use our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment
on another user because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.

I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to
go before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom
Scientific has gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't
see the fan boyism for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness 
community.


On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

Hi,
Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what
we as beta testers might say? For every release there has been and
probably will be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even
if what has been complained about would be fixed to perfection they
complain about the fixes. Either it’s too bloody late or there’s
too little or too much of eve

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Paul Richard McGann]

go to apple store or call apple supprot and notify them.

the lady fro apple headquarter shared with me as I asked question for few 
friends who are deafblind about the issues. she said there are no rip-offs, 
but apple is trying to plese everyone. if yo are happy with older 
models,then that is it. if you have bugs in older models, let apple 
technicians know. they would go over. show tehcnicians at apple store or 
best buy, or att, or verizon, etc and let tehcnicians see ing the problems. 
they would verify the problems.


by the way, the quote; you can see me but I can't see you...I can see you 
but you can't see me.


-Original Message- 
From: englishride...@gmail.com

Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 10:15 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Ugh, tat bts. I do a lot of email on the iPhone, and being able to answer my 
phone is important to me, so I think I'll continue to hold off on updating 
to iOS 9 for now. I hope another update will fix these two issues. For me, 
they're the most important ones. I can handle my Braille display 
disconnecting after turning on airplane mode and not reconnecting when I 
turn on bluetooth, but while that doesn't bother me as much, I'm sure it 
would be absolutely intolerable for a person who's deaf-blind who uses 
airplane mode a lot.


Apple seems to have issues with bluetooth and phone calls.


Thanks,
Ari

On Oct 23, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> 
wrote:


Well maybe it's because I'm using a iPhone 4S and an iPhone 5, or maybe 
it's because I have so many messages in my in box, but it takes more than 
a few seconds for VoiceOver to come back for me. It's closer to 20 or 30 
seconds. As I said, this seriously impacts my productivity.



On 10/23/2015 10:33 AM, Scott Davert wrote:
Hi Chris Chaltain.
You shouldn't need to restart VoiceOver each time you reply to an
email, you should be able to wait a few seconds and VoiceOver will
come back. I will say that the 5S has a longer lag time than the 6S,
but I hope that may help.
I see no harm in letting people know of what bugs exist, whether you
are talking about Apple, Google, or Microsoft. In fact, not informing
someone of the shortcomings ahead of time is kind of doing them a
disservice.

Scott



On 10/23/15, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:
If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly
recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than 
one
hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the 
news in

a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then
check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and 
highlights

the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite
Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as 
well

as when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV
which will be available to preorder next Monday and it will start 
shipping

next Thursday.

Regards,
Sieghard



Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf

Of Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello Mark,
Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, 
the

new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few
less, really.

- Original Message -
From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




Hello Rajmund,

I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just
checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello,
I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, 
either.

But is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?

- Original Message -
From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




hi,

I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple
doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the
degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the 
bugs

they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time
period between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I 
think

the current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for
them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the 
bugs
this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they'

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
I have never had the freezing issue, not even in iOs 9.0. Every now and then, 
sound has been routed to the phone rather than the headset but turning off the 
headset and then on again has solved this for me. This was on my iPhone 6+, 
haven’t had the chance to test this on my 6s+ as of yet.
This seems to be a bug that is behaving differently from phone to phone.
/Krister

> 24 okt. 2015 kl. 06:48 skrev Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca>:
> 
> Hi Christopher,
> 
> With iOS 9.1, do you still have the problem with Voiceover freezing up when a 
> headset is connected and you disconnect? This has completely disappeared for 
> me ever since iOS 9.1 Beta 4 or 5 I think and in the public release it is 
> also working great for me. I would say that iOS 9.1 now (October 23) is as 
> good or better than iOS 8.4 was which came out I believe in April or May, 
> maybe even June.
> I'd really love to know if others who upgraded to 9.1 still experience the 
> issue with hanging up a call when the headset is connected. If so, I wonder 
> what a total wipe/restore and setting up as a new phone would do.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Sieghard
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Christopher Chaltain
> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 4:30 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never 
> regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose VoiceOver 
> when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes when I reply 
> to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work arounds I've 
> uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 than I was with IOS 
> 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to another blind person, at least 
> not without letting them know about these issues.
> 
> On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well 
>> spokenly than me.
>> Thanks for that.
>> /Krister
>> 
>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> Everyone,
>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
>>> last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a 
>>> number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
>>> everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work. 
>>> Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the 
>>> masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are 
>>> things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that the 
>>> focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't 
>>> live with.
>>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
>>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
>>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought, 
>>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it 
>>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one 
>>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen 
>>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream 
>>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited 
>>> for the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the 
>>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
>>> 
>>> Wayne
>>> 
>>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
>>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that 
>>>> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. 
>>>> Your target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you 
>>>> weren't going to do something because of a negative reaction by a 
>>>> minority of members on this list or in any community then you'd never do 
>>>> anything.
>>>> 
>>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't 
>>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 
>>>> 9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails 
>>>> is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've 
>>>> come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on 
>>>> this list abo

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
For me, its even more than a good 30 seconds. 

- Original Message -
From: Christopher Chaltain  <chalt...@gmail.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2015 1:26 am
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> Well maybe it's because I'm using a iPhone 4S and an iPhone 5, or maybe 
> it's because I have so many messages in my in box, but it takes more 
> than a few seconds for VoiceOver to come back for me. It's closer to 20 
> or 30 seconds. As I said, this seriously impacts my productivity.
> 
> On 10/23/2015 10:33 AM, Scott Davert wrote:
> > Hi Chris Chaltain.
> > You shouldn't need to restart VoiceOver each time you reply to an
> > email, you should be able to wait a few seconds and VoiceOver will
> > come back. I will say that the 5S has a longer lag time than the 6S,
> > but I hope that may help.
> > I see no harm in letting people know of what bugs exist, whether you
> > are talking about Apple, Google, or Microsoft. In fact, not informing
> > someone of the shortcomings ahead of time is kind of doing them a
> > disservice.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> > On 10/23/15, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:
> >> If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly
> >> recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one
> >> hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news 
> >> in
> >> a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then
> >> check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and 
> >> highlights
> >> the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite
> >> Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well
> >> as when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV
> >> which will be available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping
> >> next Thursday.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Sieghard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Sieghard
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> >> Of Rajmund
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
> >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> >>
> >> Hello Mark,
> >> Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the
> >> new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few
> >> less, really.
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
> >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> >> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
> >> Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hello Rajmund,
> >>>
> >>> I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just
> >>> checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
> >>> Behalf Of Rajmund
> >>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
> >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> >>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>> I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either.
> >>> But is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?
> >>>
> >>> - Original Message -
> >>> From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
> >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> >>> Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
> >>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple
> >>>> doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the
> >>>> degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs
> >>>> they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time
> >>>> period between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think
> >>>> the current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for
> &g

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Scott Davert]

Hi Chris Chaltain.
You shouldn't need to restart VoiceOver each time you reply to an
email, you should be able to wait a few seconds and VoiceOver will
come back. I will say that the 5S has a longer lag time than the 6S,
but I hope that may help.
I see no harm in letting people know of what bugs exist, whether you
are talking about Apple, Google, or Microsoft. In fact, not informing
someone of the shortcomings ahead of time is kind of doing them a
disservice.

Scott


On 10/23/15, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:
> If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly
> recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one
> hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news in
> a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then
> check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and highlights
> the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite
> Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well
> as when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV
> which will be available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping
> next Thursday.
>
> Regards,
> Sieghard
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Sieghard
>
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Rajmund
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>
> Hello Mark,
> Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the
> new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few
> less, really.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
> Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>
>>
>>
>> Hello Rajmund,
>>
>> I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just
>> checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
>> Behalf Of Rajmund
>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>
>> Hello,
>> I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either.
>> But is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > hi,
>> >
>> > I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple
>> > doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the
>> > degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs
>> > they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time
>> > period between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think
>> > the current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for
>> > them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs
>> > this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed
>> > a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like
>> > answering the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing
>> > reasonably well overall.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Anna
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Everyone,
>> > > Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X
>> > > last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and
>> > > a number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from
>> > > everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
>> > > Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the
>> > > masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There
>> > > are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that
>> > > the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I
>> > > can't live with.
>> > > Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
>> > > pres

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Mário Navarro]

hi.
very well said.
there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
and for me it is not.
Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world.
some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
we do not need favors, but rights.
and we must fight for our rights.
and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not 
respect us as they should
we always do our part in cooperation  in solving the problems, but the 
apple never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.


 apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why  it 
also does not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?

blind are those who do not want to see ...

and I'm blind, but I want to see!
and always want the best for me!
and if I am an apple user,
I'm also a client.
and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
thank you for your words.
cheers.

Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a 
lot of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in 
the world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful 
products. I'm not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot 
of products since they also have a lot of resources. If they have too 
many products, and they can't maintain a certain level of quality 
across those products then they need to make some changes in 
priorities and business decisions. Note, I'm not saying Apple has a 
quality issue or that they don't care about accessibility. I'm just 
saying that the argument that they have a lot of products is bogus.


I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but 
they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time 
I get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability 
to use my iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell 
you that I process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle 
VoiceOver every time I reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for 
both my personal use and for my job, and these bugs are definitely 
impacting my ability to be productive at work.


I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an 
iPhone to a blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm 
running into on IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person 
get an iPhone and then run into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't 
use the phone the way I do, or they don't see these bugs themselves, 
then that's great, but at least they'll be making an informed 
decision. My real point in saying that though, was that people's 
impression of IOS 8 versus IOS 9 has a lot to do with how they use 
their phone. I was not an IOS 8 basher, but I'm definitely running 
into a lot more issue that impact me and how I use my phone on IOS 9 
then I did on IOS 8. For me, the quality of IOS 9 has definitely 
deteriorated, so it isn't true for everyone that IOS 8 was this 
unmitigated disaster and IOS 9 has solved all of those issues.


On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote:

Hi,

I think everyone’s missing the point here. Apple’s accessibility team 
is not just focusing on VoiceOver, they’re focusing on an entire set 
of features, covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they’ve 
now got 4 operating systems to focus on, rather than 2.
None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone 
from using iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what 
is probably a gigantic list of things to fix, and not just for 
VoiceOver users.
Saying you can’t recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor 
annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion.



On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <brajmund2...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,
Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair.

- Original Message -
From: Christopher Chaltain  <chalt...@gmail.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never
regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose
VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver 
freezes

when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work
arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9
than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to
another blind person, at least not without letting them know about 
these

issues.

On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

Hi,
I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor 
well spokenly than me.

Thanks for that.
/Krister


22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:

Everyone,
Think for a moment how many bugs and

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
I don't know anything about IOS 8. But, I have to say, restarting voice over, 
it'll eventually ware out the home button. Fortunately, I don't have a phone 
yet, but I will, eventually,  and these things are not putting me off, but I 
agree, people need to be aware of it. 

- Original Message -
From: Christopher Chaltain  <chalt...@gmail.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a 
> lot of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in 
> the world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. 
> I'm not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products 
> since they also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, 
> and they can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products 
> then they need to make some changes in priorities and business 
> decisions. Note, I'm not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they 
> don't care about accessibility. I'm just saying that the argument that 
> they have a lot of products is bogus.
> 
> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but 
> they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I 
> get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to 
> use my iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you 
> that I process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver 
> every time I reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my 
> personal use and for my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my 
> ability to be productive at work.
> 
> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone 
> to a blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running 
> into on IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an 
> iPhone and then run into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't use the 
> phone the way I do, or they don't see these bugs themselves, then that's 
> great, but at least they'll be making an informed decision. My real 
> point in saying that though, was that people's impression of IOS 8 
> versus IOS 9 has a lot to do with how they use their phone. I was not an 
> IOS 8 basher, but I'm definitely running into a lot more issue that 
> impact me and how I use my phone on IOS 9 then I did on IOS 8. For me, 
> the quality of IOS 9 has definitely deteriorated, so it isn't true for 
> everyone that IOS 8 was this unmitigated disaster and IOS 9 has solved 
> all of those issues.
> 
> On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I think everyone's missing the point here. Apple's accessibility team is 
> > not just focusing on VoiceOver, they're focusing on an entire set of 
> > features, covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they've now got 4 
> > operating systems to focus on, rather than 2.
> > None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone from 
> > using iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what is probably 
> > a gigantic list of things to fix, and not just for VoiceOver users.
> > Saying you can't recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor 
> > annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion.
> >
> >> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <brajmund2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >> Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair.
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: Christopher Chaltain  <chalt...@gmail.com>
> >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> >> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm
> >> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never
> >>> regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose
> >>> VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes
> >>> when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work
> >>> arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9
> >>> than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to
> >>> another blind person, at least not without letting them know about these
> >>> issues.
> >>>
> >>> On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>> I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well 
> >>>> spokenly than me.
> >>>> Thanks for that.
> >>>

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Krister Ekstrom]

o the tester, is not
>>>> always
>>>> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.
>>>> 
>>>> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the
>>>> less
>>>> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
>>>> appear to be to external testers.
>>>> 
>>>> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
>>>> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a
>>>> future
>>>> release.
>>>> 
>>>> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when
>>>> bugs
>>>> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they
>>>> were
>>>> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not
>>>> testing
>>>> well enough.
>>>> 
>>>> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
>>>> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
>>>> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal
>>>> liberties,
>>>> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers,
>>>> refreshable
>>>> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
>>>> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may,
>>>> in
>>>> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.
>>>> 
>>>> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep
>>>> in
>>>> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
>>>> much higher.
>>>> 
>>>> Most Sincerely,
>>>> 
>>>> Mark
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone
>>>> list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>>> 
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
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>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at Gmail
>> 
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
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>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Follow me on Twitter at:
> www.twitter.com/wcmerritt
> My website:
> www.wayneism.com
> My book list:
> www.wayneism.com/books.php
> 
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> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Christopher Chaltain]

 of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
appear to be to external testers.

All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a
future
release.

In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when
bugs
get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they
were
resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not
testing
well enough.

To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal
liberties,
talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers,
refreshable
Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.

Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may,
in
some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.

So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep
in
mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
much higher.

Most Sincerely,

Mark

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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Christopher Chaltain]

I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a 
lot of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in 
the world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. 
I'm not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products 
since they also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, 
and they can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products 
then they need to make some changes in priorities and business 
decisions. Note, I'm not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they 
don't care about accessibility. I'm just saying that the argument that 
they have a lot of products is bogus.


I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but 
they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I 
get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to 
use my iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you 
that I process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver 
every time I reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my 
personal use and for my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my 
ability to be productive at work.


I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone 
to a blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running 
into on IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an 
iPhone and then run into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't use the 
phone the way I do, or they don't see these bugs themselves, then that's 
great, but at least they'll be making an informed decision. My real 
point in saying that though, was that people's impression of IOS 8 
versus IOS 9 has a lot to do with how they use their phone. I was not an 
IOS 8 basher, but I'm definitely running into a lot more issue that 
impact me and how I use my phone on IOS 9 then I did on IOS 8. For me, 
the quality of IOS 9 has definitely deteriorated, so it isn't true for 
everyone that IOS 8 was this unmitigated disaster and IOS 9 has solved 
all of those issues.


On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote:

Hi,

I think everyone’s missing the point here. Apple’s accessibility team is not 
just focusing on VoiceOver, they’re focusing on an entire set of features, 
covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they’ve now got 4 operating 
systems to focus on, rather than 2.
None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone from using 
iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what is probably a gigantic 
list of things to fix, and not just for VoiceOver users.
Saying you can’t recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor 
annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion.


On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <brajmund2...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,
Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair.

- Original Message -
From: Christopher Chaltain  <chalt...@gmail.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never
regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose
VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes
when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work
arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9
than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to
another blind person, at least not without letting them know about these
issues.

On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

Hi,
I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well 
spokenly than me.
Thanks for that.
/Krister


22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:

Everyone,
Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
the software companies to fix the bugs before they rel

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair. 

- Original Message -
From: Christopher Chaltain  <chalt...@gmail.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never 
> regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose 
> VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes 
> when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work 
> arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 
> than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to 
> another blind person, at least not without letting them know about these 
> issues.
> 
> On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well 
> > spokenly than me.
> > Thanks for that.
> > /Krister
> >
> >> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> Everyone,
> >> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
> >> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
> >> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
> >> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
> >> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
> >> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
> >> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
> >> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
> >> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
> >> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
> >> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
> >> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
> >> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
> >> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
> >> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
> >> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
> >> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
> >> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
> >>
> >> Wayne
> >>
> >> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
> >>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
> >>> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
> >>> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
> >>> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
> >>> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
> >>>
> >>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
> >>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
> >>> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
> >>> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
> >>> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
> >>> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
> >>> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
> >>> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
> >>>
> >>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go
> >>> before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific has
> >>> gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism
> >>> for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as
> >>>> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and probably 
> >>>> will
> >>>> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been
> >>>> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the
> >>>> fixes. Either it's too bloody late or there's too little or too much of
> >&

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Daniel Miller]

Hi,

I think everyone’s missing the point here. Apple’s accessibility team is not 
just focusing on VoiceOver, they’re focusing on an entire set of features, 
covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they’ve now got 4 operating 
systems to focus on, rather than 2.
None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone from using 
iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what is probably a gigantic 
list of things to fix, and not just for VoiceOver users.
Saying you can’t recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor 
annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion.

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <brajmund2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair. 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Christopher Chaltain  <chalt...@gmail.com>
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
>> 
>> 
>> For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never 
>> regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose 
>> VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes 
>> when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work 
>> arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 
>> than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to 
>> another blind person, at least not without letting them know about these 
>> issues.
>> 
>> On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well 
>>> spokenly than me.
>>> Thanks for that.
>>> /Krister
>>> 
>>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:
>>>> 
>>>> Everyone,
>>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
>>>> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
>>>> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
>>>> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
>>>> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
>>>> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
>>>> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
>>>> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
>>>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
>>>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
>>>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
>>>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
>>>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
>>>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
>>>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
>>>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
>>>> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
>>>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
>>>> 
>>>> Wayne
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
>>>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
>>>>> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
>>>>> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
>>>>> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
>>>>> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
>>>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
>>>>> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
>>>>> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
>>>>> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
>>>>> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
>>>>> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
>>>>> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't get the

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Paul Richard McGann]

to all,

good work, scott.

yes, same idea with visual concept, like movies, when giving description 
concepts, voice takes time to relay the description.  same idea with deaf 
and defblind having interpreters in front, and interpreters hears to give 
them time to function and relay to words to us.


that is lag time.

rich


-Original Message- 
From: Scott Davert

Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 11:33 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hi Chris Chaltain.
You shouldn't need to restart VoiceOver each time you reply to an
email, you should be able to wait a few seconds and VoiceOver will
come back. I will say that the 5S has a longer lag time than the 6S,
but I hope that may help.
I see no harm in letting people know of what bugs exist, whether you
are talking about Apple, Google, or Microsoft. In fact, not informing
someone of the shortcomings ahead of time is kind of doing them a
disservice.

Scott


On 10/23/15, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:

If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly
recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one
hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news 
in

a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then
check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and 
highlights

the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite
Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well
as when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV
which will be available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping
next Thursday.

Regards,
Sieghard



Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello Mark,
Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the
new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few
less, really.

- Original Message -
From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




Hello Rajmund,

I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just
checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello,
I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either.
But is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?

- Original Message -
From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> hi,
>
> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple
> doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the
> degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the 
> bugs

> they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time
> period between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I 
> think

> the current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for
> them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the 
> bugs

> this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed
> a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like
> answering the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing
> reasonably well overall.
>
> Best,
> Anna
>
>
> > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Everyone,
> > Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X
> > last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and
> > a number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from
> > everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
> > Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the
> > masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There
> > are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that
> > the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that 
> > I

> > can't live with.
> > Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
> > press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
> > screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a
> > thought, look at another clock or watch if

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[chris]

Hi

Do these podcasts also talk about software for say the Apple TV? OS X? 
Watch OS? Don't worry if you don't know; I can always check them out. 
Podcasts on Apple TV is great!


On 23/10/2015 15:44, Sieghard Weitzel wrote:

If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly recommend the Today 
in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one hour Podcast and it's usually well 
worth the listen. If you want the news in a much shorter format without all the How-To 
questions and callers, then check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or 
so minutes and highlights the most important announcements. You can find both in your 
favourite Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well as 
when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV which will be 
available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping next Thursday.

Regards,
Sieghard



Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello Mark,
Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the new 
release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few less, 
really.

- Original Message -
From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




Hello Rajmund,

I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just checked 
the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello,
I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either. But is 
the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?

- Original Message -
From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




hi,

I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple doesn't 
get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree of feedback 
I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have fixed that I've 
reported. I wish there was a longer time period between WWDC in June and iPhone 
releases in September, as I think the current timeline is incredibly tight. It 
seems to be too tight for them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely 
trying, most of the bugs this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, 
and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial 
ones like answering the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing 
reasonably well overall.

Best,
Anna



On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Everyone,
Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X
last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and
a number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from
everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the
masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There
are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that
the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't 
live with.
Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a
thought, look at another clock or watch if I really want to know
what time it is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many
bugs and no one else does, widen your scope and look at Windows,
JAWS, any screen reader or assistive software, or any other widely
used mainstream software. All major releases has bugs to some
degree. If we waited for the software companies to fix the bugs
before they released the software, we would be waiting forever for that next 
big thing.

Wayne

On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if
Apple doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed,
but that will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers.
Your target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you
weren't going to do something because of a negative reaction by a
minority of members on this list or in any community then you'd never do 
anything.

You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that
doesn't mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4,
but with IOS 9, an

RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hi Christopher,

With iOS 9.1, do you still have the problem with Voiceover freezing up when a 
headset is connected and you disconnect? This has completely disappeared for me 
ever since iOS 9.1 Beta 4 or 5 I think and in the public release it is also 
working great for me. I would say that iOS 9.1 now (October 23) is as good or 
better than iOS 8.4 was which came out I believe in April or May, maybe even 
June.
I'd really love to know if others who upgraded to 9.1 still experience the 
issue with hanging up a call when the headset is connected. If so, I wonder 
what a total wipe/restore and setting up as a new phone would do.


Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 4:30 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never regretted 
upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose VoiceOver when I answer 
a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes when I reply to an email 
message. I'm still getting by with the work arounds I've uncovered so far, but 
I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend 
the iPhone anymore to another blind person, at least not without letting them 
know about these issues.

On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> Hi,
> I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well 
> spokenly than me.
> Thanks for that.
> /Krister
>
>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Everyone,
>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
>> last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a 
>> number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
>> everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work. 
>> Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the 
>> masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are 
>> things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that the 
>> focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't 
>> live with.
>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought, 
>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it 
>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one 
>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen 
>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream 
>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited 
>> for the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the 
>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that 
>>> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. 
>>> Your target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you 
>>> weren't going to do something because of a negative reaction by a 
>>> minority of members on this list or in any community then you'd never do 
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't 
>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 
>>> 9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails 
>>> is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've 
>>> come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on 
>>> this list about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We 
>>> all don't use our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment 
>>> on another user because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
>>>
>>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to 
>>> go before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom 
>>> Scientific has gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't 
>>> see the fan boyism for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness 
>>> community.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what 
>>>> we as beta testers migh

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Daniel Miller]

I do a lot of email on my phone, as well as answer calls, and I’m not seeing 
the freezing issue, so perhaps it’s a case-by-case basis, which could make the 
bug harder to track down and fix. Keep reporting it to Apple accessibility.

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:15 PM, englishride...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Ugh, tat bts. I do a lot of email on the iPhone, and being able to answer my 
> phone is important to me, so I think I'll continue to hold off on updating to 
> iOS 9 for now. I hope another update will fix these two issues. For me, 
> they're the most important ones. I can handle my Braille display 
> disconnecting after turning on airplane mode and not reconnecting when I turn 
> on bluetooth, but while that doesn't bother me as much, I'm sure it would be 
> absolutely intolerable for a person who's deaf-blind who uses airplane mode a 
> lot.
> 
> Apple seems to have issues with bluetooth and phone calls.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Ari
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Well maybe it's because I'm using a iPhone 4S and an iPhone 5, or maybe it's 
>> because I have so many messages in my in box, but it takes more than a few 
>> seconds for VoiceOver to come back for me. It's closer to 20 or 30 seconds. 
>> As I said, this seriously impacts my productivity.
>> 
>>> On 10/23/2015 10:33 AM, Scott Davert wrote:
>>> Hi Chris Chaltain.
>>> You shouldn't need to restart VoiceOver each time you reply to an
>>> email, you should be able to wait a few seconds and VoiceOver will
>>> come back. I will say that the 5S has a longer lag time than the 6S,
>>> but I hope that may help.
>>> I see no harm in letting people know of what bugs exist, whether you
>>> are talking about Apple, Google, or Microsoft. In fact, not informing
>>> someone of the shortcomings ahead of time is kind of doing them a
>>> disservice.
>>> 
>>> Scott
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 10/23/15, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:
>>>> If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly
>>>> recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one
>>>> hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news 
>>>> in
>>>> a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then
>>>> check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and 
>>>> highlights
>>>> the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite
>>>> Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well
>>>> as when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV
>>>> which will be available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping
>>>> next Thursday.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Sieghard
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Sieghard
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
>>>> Of Rajmund
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>> Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the
>>>> new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few
>>>> less, really.
>>>> 
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
>>>> Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Rajmund,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just
>>>>> checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Rajmund
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
>>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I know people can't speak about  i

RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Sieghard Weitzel]

As the name indicates, "Today in iOS" is all about iOS and that includes iOS 
itself, all iOS devices including Apple Watch and Apple TV. Rob may mention 
significant Mac or osX news, but not in much detail, he usually mentions a 
Kickstarter project which stands out and sometimes talks about other 
accessories and, of course, apps.

Apple Bite talks about "everything good and bad in the world of Apple" as their 
tagline goes. It's a fun, informative and very short and to the point little 
Podcast.

Take care,
Sieghard


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
chris
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 10:53 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hi

Do these podcasts also talk about software for say the Apple TV? OS X? 
Watch OS? Don't worry if you don't know; I can always check them out. 
Podcasts on Apple TV is great!

On 23/10/2015 15:44, Sieghard Weitzel wrote:
> If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly 
> recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one 
> hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news in 
> a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then 
> check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and highlights 
> the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite Podcast 
> client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well as when 
> any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV which will be 
> available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping next Thursday.
>
> Regards,
> Sieghard
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Sieghard
>
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Rajmund
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>
> Hello Mark,
> Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the 
> new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few 
> less, really.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
> Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>
>>
>>
>> Hello Rajmund,
>>
>> I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just 
>> checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
>> Behalf Of Rajmund
>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>
>> Hello,
>> I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either. But 
>> is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple 
>>> doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree 
>>> of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have 
>>> fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period between 
>>> WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the current 
>>> timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them to fix 
>>> everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this year 
>>> affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot of bugs 
>>> since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like answering the phone 
>>> and the focus issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well overall.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Anna
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Everyone,
>>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
>>>> last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and 
>>>> a number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
>>>> everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
>>>> Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry amon

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Regina Alvarado]

I am writing this with mBraille which since 9x has worked beautifully for me 
basically. Going to try and fix, but has anyone been having difficulty with 
Siri? The last 2 days I cannot talk to her. I have her turned on and so is hey 
siri, but no siri. 

As for bugs, which was what I wanted to comment on anyway but could not 
dictate, remember that Apple gave us voice over for free out of the box. Any 
dealing I have had with the accessibility or genuses, etc. Has been courteous 
and they work hard to fix the problem. No paying for upgrades or keeping so 
much money in your account to get help. Samantha may not be Paul, but she is 
free. Also, Tim Cook said he would not throw out Voice over or those who help 
it do better just because stockholders think it should be scrapped. He won a 
fan here!! The stockholders don't care about a small group of people, but 
he does and so do his engineers. I am not saying we should not bring things to 
their attention, but tearing them down, no way will I. I put up with the most 
annoying bug for a year, where the focus was on reply instead of delete in 
mail, and it was fixed. So, instant gratification, no, but it eventually gets 
fixed which is why when a bug is noticed many should write. It lets them know 
the most important ones to fix. By the way, I am so grateful to all those on 
this list and from applevis who beta. They may not catch all bugs on all 
phones, but they are great at helping to catch them. Now I'll return to my hole.

reggie & Lex

On Oct 22, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Woody Anna Dresner <wadres...@att.net> wrote:


hi,

I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple doesn't 
get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree of feedback 
I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have fixed that I've 
reported. I wish there was a longer time period between WWDC in June and iPhone 
releases in September, as I think the current timeline is incredibly tight. It 
seems to be too tight for them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely 
trying, most of the bugs this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, 
and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial 
ones like answering the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing 
reasonably well overall.

Best,
Anna


> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Everyone,
> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
> 
> Wayne
> 
>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
>> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
>> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
>> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
>> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
>> 
>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
>> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
>> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
>> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
>> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
>> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
>> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
>> 
>> I do

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Krister Ekstrom]

Finally someone who sees sense! It’s always the negativity that sticks around 
in the blind community even though sites like Applevis tries to tell about 
actual features of the system. It’s for the features and functionality i 
upgrade not to find things to bitch about. Call me a fan boy, but there’s a 
reason why i am, and it’s because Apples products even with bugs work way, way, 
way better than Windblows did on my PCs.
/Krister

> 23 okt. 2015 kl. 21:29 skrev Shawn Krasniuk <bbssh...@icloud.com>:
> 
> So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge 
> disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using 
> their products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any 
> responsibility for us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse 
> to be labelled that way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a 
> different operating system like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter 
> how long we take to beta test products and when the official release does 
> come out, people always have to find something else to bitch about. It makes 
> me wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for these spoiled folks that 
> think everything should be perfect and go on bashing the people that are 
> involved in trying to make the software a success. And then I remember that 
> there are people that do appreciate what people like myself are doing. So to 
> those people, thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint you.
> 
> Shawn
> Sent From My White MacBook
> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
> Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
> Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> hi.
>> very well said.
>> there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
>> what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
>> and for me it is not.
>> Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world.
>> some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
>> we do not need favors, but rights.
>> and we must fight for our rights.
>> and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect us 
>> as they should
>> we always do our part in cooperation  in solving the problems, but the apple 
>> never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.
>> 
>> apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why  it also 
>> does not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?
>> blind are those who do not want to see ...
>> 
>> and I'm blind, but I want to see!
>> and always want the best for me!
>> and if I am an apple user,
>> I'm also a client.
>> and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
>> and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
>> thank you for your words.
>> cheers.
>> 
>> Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
>>> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot 
>>> of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the 
>>> world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm not 
>>> going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products since they 
>>> also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, and they 
>>> can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products then they 
>>> need to make some changes in priorities and business decisions. Note, I'm 
>>> not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care about 
>>> accessibility. I'm just saying that the argument that they have a lot of 
>>> products is bogus.
>>> 
>>> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but they 
>>> certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I get a 
>>> call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to use my 
>>> iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you that I 
>>> process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver every time 
>>> I reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my personal use and 
>>> for my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my ability to be 
>>> productive at work.
>>> 
>>> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone to 
>>> a blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running into 
>>> on IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an iPhone and 
>>> then run 

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
OK, I'll answer. After note takers, these things are luxurious. BUT I also keep 
remind myself of humanware, where the apex is unstable. I'm just worried, apple 
is following them. As for the other point, I, at least, don't blame the beta 
testers. You, you have done your part. Its not your responsibility to fix bugs, 
you can only do as much as reporting. 

- Original Message -
From: Shawn Krasniuk  <bbssh...@icloud.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 8:29 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge 
> disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using 
> their products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any 
> responsibility for us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse 
> to be labelled that way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a 
> different operating system like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter 
> how long we take to beta test products and when the official release does 
> come out, people always have to find something else to bitch about. It makes 
> me wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for these spoiled folks that 
> think everything should be perfect and go on bashing the people that are 
> involved in trying to make the software a success. And then I remember that 
> there are people that do appreciate what people like myself are doing. So to 
> those people, thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint you.
> 
> Shawn
> Sent From My White MacBook
> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
> Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
> Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com
> 
> > On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > hi.
> > very well said.
> > there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
> > what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
> > and for me it is not.
> > Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world.
> > some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
> > we do not need favors, but rights.
> > and we must fight for our rights.
> > and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect 
> > us as they should
> > we always do our part in cooperation  in solving the problems, but the 
> > apple never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.
> > 
> > apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why  it also 
> > does not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?
> > blind are those who do not want to see ...
> > 
> > and I'm blind, but I want to see!
> > and always want the best for me!
> > and if I am an apple user,
> > I'm also a client.
> > and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
> > and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
> > thank you for your words.
> > cheers.
> > 
> > as 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
> >> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot 
> >> of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the 
> >> world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm 
> >> not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products since 
> >> they also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, and 
> >> they can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products then 
> >> they need to make some changes in priorities and business decisions. Note, 
> >> I'm not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care about 
> >> accessibility. I'm just saying that the argument that they have a lot of 
> >> products is bogus.
> >> 
> >> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but 
> >> they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I 
> >> get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to use 
> >> my iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you that I 
> >> process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver every time 
> >> I reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my personal use and 
> >> for my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my ability to be 
> >> productive at work.
> >> 
> >> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone to 
> >> a blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running into 
> >

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
Haven't used windows

- Original Message -
From: Krister Ekstrom  <kris...@kristersplace.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> Finally someone who sees sense! It's always the negativity that sticks around 
> in the blind community even though sites like Applevis tries to tell about 
> actual features of the system. It's for the features and functionality i 
> upgrade not to find things to bitch about. Call me a fan boy, but there's a 
> reason why i am, and it's because Apples products even with bugs work way, 
> way, way better than Windblows did on my PCs.
> /Krister
> 
> > 23 okt. 2015 kl. 21:29 skrev Shawn Krasniuk <bbssh...@icloud.com>:
> > 
> > So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge 
> > disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using 
> > their products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any 
> > responsibility for us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse 
> > to be labelled that way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a 
> > different operating system like Android? See, Krister has a point. No 
> > matter how long we take to beta test products and when the official release 
> > does come out, people always have to find something else to bitch about. It 
> > makes me wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for these spoiled folks 
> > that think everything should be perfect and go on bashing the people that 
> > are involved in trying to make the software a success. And then I remember 
> > that there are people that do appreciate what people like myself are doing. 
> > So to those people, thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint 
> > you.
> > 
> > Shawn
> > Sent From My White MacBook
> > Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
> > Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
> > Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
> > Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com
> > 
> >> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> hi.
> >> very well said.
> >> there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
> >> what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
> >> and for me it is not.
> >> Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this 
> >> world.
> >> some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
> >> we do not need favors, but rights.
> >> and we must fight for our rights.
> >> and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect 
> >> us as they should
> >> we always do our part in cooperation  in solving the problems, but the 
> >> apple never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.
> >> 
> >> apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why  it also 
> >> does not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?
> >> blind are those who do not want to see ...
> >> 
> >> and I'm blind, but I want to see!
> >> and always want the best for me!
> >> and if I am an apple user,
> >> I'm also a client.
> >> and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
> >> and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
> >> thank you for your words.
> >> cheers.
> >> 
> >> as 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
> >>> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a 
> >>> lot of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in 
> >>> the world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. 
> >>> I'm not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products 
> >>> since they also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, 
> >>> and they can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products 
> >>> then they need to make some changes in priorities and business decisions. 
> >>> Note, I'm not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care 
> >>> about accessibility.. I'm just saying that the argument that they have a 
> >>> lot of products is bogus.
> >>> 
> >>> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but 
> >>> they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I 
> >>> get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to 
> >>> use my iPhone the way I've 

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Shawn Krasniuk]

So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge 
disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using their 
products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any responsibility for 
us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse to be labelled that 
way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a different operating system 
like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter how long we take to beta test 
products and when the official release does come out, people always have to 
find something else to bitch about. It makes me wonder sometimes why I bother 
beta testing for these spoiled folks that think everything should be perfect 
and go on bashing the people that are involved in trying to make the software a 
success. And then I remember that there are people that do appreciate what 
people like myself are doing. So to those people, thanks, and to those other 
people, sorry to disappoint you.

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook
Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> hi.
> very well said.
> there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
> what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
> and for me it is not.
> Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world.
> some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
> we do not need favors, but rights.
> and we must fight for our rights.
> and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect us 
> as they should
> we always do our part in cooperation  in solving the problems, but the apple 
> never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.
> 
> apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why  it also does 
> not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?
> blind are those who do not want to see ...
> 
> and I'm blind, but I want to see!
> and always want the best for me!
> and if I am an apple user,
> I'm also a client.
> and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
> and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
> thank you for your words.
> cheers.
> 
> Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
>> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot 
>> of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the 
>> world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm not 
>> going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products since they 
>> also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, and they can't 
>> maintain a certain level of quality across those products then they need to 
>> make some changes in priorities and business decisions. Note, I'm not saying 
>> Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care about accessibility. I'm 
>> just saying that the argument that they have a lot of products is bogus.
>> 
>> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but they 
>> certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I get a 
>> call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to use my 
>> iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you that I 
>> process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver every time I 
>> reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my personal use and for 
>> my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my ability to be productive 
>> at work.
>> 
>> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone to a 
>> blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running into on 
>> IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an iPhone and 
>> then run into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't use the phone the way I 
>> do, or they don't see these bugs themselves, then that's great, but at least 
>> they'll be making an informed decision. My real point in saying that though, 
>> was that people's impression of IOS 8 versus IOS 9 has a lot to do with how 
>> they use their phone. I was not an IOS 8 basher, but I'm definitely running 
>> into a lot more issue that impact me and how I use my phone on IOS 9 then I 
>> did on IOS 8. For me, the quality of IOS 9 has definitely deteriorated, so 
>> it isn't true for everyone that IOS 8 was this unmitigated disaster and IOS 
>> 9 has solved all of those issues.
>> 
>> On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I think everyone’s missing th

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Daniel Miller]

I agree with the last 2 posters. To those people that are complaining because 
things don’t work the way *you* think they should work, don’t let the door hit 
ya where the good lord split ya.
> On Oct 23, 2015, at 2:36 PM, Krister Ekstrom <kris...@kristersplace.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Finally someone who sees sense! It’s always the negativity that sticks around 
> in the blind community even though sites like Applevis tries to tell about 
> actual features of the system. It’s for the features and functionality i 
> upgrade not to find things to bitch about. Call me a fan boy, but there’s a 
> reason why i am, and it’s because Apples products even with bugs work way, 
> way, way better than Windblows did on my PCs.
> /Krister
> 
>> 23 okt. 2015 kl. 21:29 skrev Shawn Krasniuk <bbssh...@icloud.com>:
>> 
>> So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge 
>> disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using 
>> their products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any 
>> responsibility for us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse 
>> to be labelled that way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a 
>> different operating system like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter 
>> how long we take to beta test products and when the official release does 
>> come out, people always have to find something else to bitch about. It makes 
>> me wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for these spoiled folks that 
>> think everything should be perfect and go on bashing the people that are 
>> involved in trying to make the software a success. And then I remember that 
>> there are people that do appreciate what people like myself are doing. So to 
>> those people, thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint you.
>> 
>> Shawn
>> Sent From My White MacBook
>> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
>> Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
>> Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
>> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> hi.
>>> very well said.
>>> there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
>>> what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
>>> and for me it is not.
>>> Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world.
>>> some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
>>> we do not need favors, but rights.
>>> and we must fight for our rights.
>>> and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect 
>>> us as they should
>>> we always do our part in cooperation  in solving the problems, but the 
>>> apple never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.
>>> 
>>> apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why  it also 
>>> does not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?
>>> blind are those who do not want to see ...
>>> 
>>> and I'm blind, but I want to see!
>>> and always want the best for me!
>>> and if I am an apple user,
>>> I'm also a client.
>>> and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
>>> and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
>>> thank you for your words.
>>> cheers.
>>> 
>>> Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
>>>> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot 
>>>> of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the 
>>>> world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm 
>>>> not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products since 
>>>> they also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, and 
>>>> they can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products then 
>>>> they need to make some changes in priorities and business decisions. Note, 
>>>> I'm not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care about 
>>>> accessibility. I'm just saying that the argument that they have a lot of 
>>>> products is bogus.
>>>> 
>>>> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but 
>>>> they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I 
>>>> get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to use 
>>>> my iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[englishrider91]

Ugh, tat bts. I do a lot of email on the iPhone, and being able to answer my 
phone is important to me, so I think I'll continue to hold off on updating to 
iOS 9 for now. I hope another update will fix these two issues. For me, they're 
the most important ones. I can handle my Braille display disconnecting after 
turning on airplane mode and not reconnecting when I turn on bluetooth, but 
while that doesn't bother me as much, I'm sure it would be absolutely 
intolerable for a person who's deaf-blind who uses airplane mode a lot.

Apple seems to have issues with bluetooth and phone calls.


Thanks,
Ari

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Well maybe it's because I'm using a iPhone 4S and an iPhone 5, or maybe it's 
> because I have so many messages in my in box, but it takes more than a few 
> seconds for VoiceOver to come back for me. It's closer to 20 or 30 seconds. 
> As I said, this seriously impacts my productivity.
> 
>> On 10/23/2015 10:33 AM, Scott Davert wrote:
>> Hi Chris Chaltain.
>> You shouldn't need to restart VoiceOver each time you reply to an
>> email, you should be able to wait a few seconds and VoiceOver will
>> come back. I will say that the 5S has a longer lag time than the 6S,
>> but I hope that may help.
>> I see no harm in letting people know of what bugs exist, whether you
>> are talking about Apple, Google, or Microsoft. In fact, not informing
>> someone of the shortcomings ahead of time is kind of doing them a
>> disservice.
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/23/15, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:
>>> If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly
>>> recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one
>>> hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news in
>>> a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then
>>> check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and highlights
>>> the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite
>>> Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well
>>> as when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV
>>> which will be available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping
>>> next Thursday.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Sieghard
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Sieghard
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
>>> Of Rajmund
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>> 
>>> Hello Mark,
>>> Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the
>>> new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few
>>> less, really.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
>>> Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Rajmund,
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just
>>>> checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Rajmund
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either.
>>>> But is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?
>>>> 
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>> Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple
>>>>> doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the
>>>>> degree 

RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Sieghard Weitzel]

If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly recommend 
the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one hour Podcast 
and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news in a much shorter 
format without all the How-To questions and callers, then check out the "Apple 
Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and highlights the most important 
announcements. You can find both in your favourite Podcast client and both 
would mention any new betas which came out as well as when any new products go 
on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV which will be available to preorder 
next Monday and it will start shipping next Thursday.

Regards,
Sieghard



Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello Mark,
Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the new 
release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few less, 
really. 

- Original Message -
From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> Hello Rajmund,
> 
> I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just 
> checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Rajmund
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> Hello,
> I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either. But 
> is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> >
> >
> > hi,
> > 
> > I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple 
> > doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree 
> > of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have 
> > fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period between 
> > WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the current 
> > timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them to fix 
> > everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this year 
> > affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot of bugs 
> > since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like answering the phone 
> > and the focus issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well overall.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Anna
> > 
> > 
> > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Everyone,
> > > Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
> > > last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and 
> > > a number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
> > > everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
> > > Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the 
> > > masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There 
> > > are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that 
> > > the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I 
> > > can't live with.
> > > Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
> > > press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
> > > screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a 
> > > thought, look at another clock or watch if I really want to know 
> > > what time it is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many 
> > > bugs and no one else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, 
> > > JAWS, any screen reader or assistive software, or any other widely 
> > > used mainstream software. All major releases has bugs to some 
> > > degree. If we waited for the software companies to fix the bugs 
> > > before they released the software, we would be waiting forever for that 
> > > next big thing.
> > > 
> > > Wayne
> > > 
> > > On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Of course you should report bugs. 

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
OK, I'm sure I can find it in my RSS reader, do I just type in the name? Or 
where shall I start looking for it?

- Original Message -
From: Sieghard Weitzel  <siegh...@live.ca>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 3:44 pm
Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly 
> recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one 
> hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news in 
> a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then 
> check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and highlights 
> the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite Podcast 
> client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well as when 
> any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV which will be 
> available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping next Thursday.
> 
> Regards,
> Sieghard
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Sieghard
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Rajmund
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> Hello Mark,
> Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the 
> new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few 
> less, really. 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
> Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> >
> >
> > Hello Rajmund,
> > 
> > I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just 
> > checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
> > Behalf Of Rajmund
> > Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
> > To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> > 
> > Hello,
> > I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either. 
> > But is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -
> > From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
> > To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
> > Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > > hi,
> > > 
> > > I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple 
> > > doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the 
> > > degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs 
> > > they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period 
> > > between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the 
> > > current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them 
> > > to fix everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this 
> > > year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot 
> > > of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like answering 
> > > the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well 
> > > overall.
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > > Anna
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Everyone,
> > > > Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
> > > > last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and 
> > > > a number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
> > > > everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
> > > > Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the 
> > > > masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There 
> > > > are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that 
> > > > the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I 
> > > > can't live with.
> > > > Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
> > > > press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
> > > > screen that has the time and check it t

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Christopher Chaltain]

I must have missed that message, but I don't recall seeing any one bash 
the beta testers. I'm a beta tester myself, and I haven't been offended 
by anything anyone has said on list. I know there will always be a 
minority of nay sayers in any group, and I'm not going to let them keep 
me from contributing to make a product better.


I know I've been criticized on list for being frustrated with the bugs 
I'm seeing in IOS 9, but I've never said that Apple is doing us a huge 
disservice, nor do I think Apple isn't taking any responsibility. Apple 
is making a call on the bugs they'll address in IOS, whether they be 
accessibility related or not. As a user, I need to decide if an iPhone 
is the best product for what I want to do or not, which means 
considering the bugs as well as the features.


I have considered an Android phone, and I'll keep considering an Android 
phone. To be honest, I don't use all of the features in IOS, and so I'm 
not always taking advantage of the more advanced features you get with 
IOS and VoiceOver. Because of that, and Android phone might be a better 
platform for me to text, take phone calls and handle email. I do have an 
Android tablet, and if another blind person were to ask me what I'd 
recommend, I'd talk about what you'd be doing with your device and what 
the strengths and weaknesses are of each platform. I'd let them make up 
their own mind. In my case, my endorsement of the iPhone is not as 
glowing as it's been because of the frustrating issues I'm having with 
IOS 9.


I should also say that it's the people who report problems and ask for 
things to be better that make something better for everyone. This holds 
for the beta testers, but also applies to others who let Apple know how 
things could be improved. If everyone who found a bug in IOS just left 
for another platform then I'd think you'd see the quality of IOS decline 
as people didn't report issues and fight to get them addressed. That 
doesn't mean people should be negative, but I don't consider myself to 
be negative. I never bash Apple or IOS, but if someone were to ask me 
what I thought about an iPhone, I'd tell them the pros as well as the cons.



On 10/23/2015 02:29 PM, Shawn Krasniuk wrote:

So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge 
disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using their 
products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any responsibility for 
us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse to be labelled that 
way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a different operating system 
like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter how long we take to beta test 
products and when the official release does come out, people always have to 
find something else to bitch about. It makes me wonder sometimes why I bother 
beta testing for these spoiled folks that think everything should be perfect 
and go on bashing the people that are involved in trying to make the software a 
success. And then I remember that there are people that do appreciate what 
people like myself are doing. So to those people, thanks, and to those other 
people, sorry to disappoint you.

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook
Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com


On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:


hi.
very well said.
there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
and for me it is not.
Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world.
some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
we do not need favors, but rights.
and we must fight for our rights.
and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect us as 
they should
we always do our part in cooperation  in solving the problems, but the apple 
never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.

apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why  it also does 
not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?
blind are those who do not want to see ...

and I'm blind, but I want to see!
and always want the best for me!
and if I am an apple user,
I'm also a client.
and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
thank you for your words.
cheers.

Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:

I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot of 
products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the world, due 
to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm not going to cut 
them any slack because they have a lot of products since they also have a lot 
of resources. If they have too many products, and they can't maintain a certain 
level of quality across those pr

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Christopher Chaltain]

Well maybe it's because I'm using a iPhone 4S and an iPhone 5, or maybe 
it's because I have so many messages in my in box, but it takes more 
than a few seconds for VoiceOver to come back for me. It's closer to 20 
or 30 seconds. As I said, this seriously impacts my productivity.


On 10/23/2015 10:33 AM, Scott Davert wrote:

Hi Chris Chaltain.
You shouldn't need to restart VoiceOver each time you reply to an
email, you should be able to wait a few seconds and VoiceOver will
come back. I will say that the 5S has a longer lag time than the 6S,
but I hope that may help.
I see no harm in letting people know of what bugs exist, whether you
are talking about Apple, Google, or Microsoft. In fact, not informing
someone of the shortcomings ahead of time is kind of doing them a
disservice.

Scott


On 10/23/15, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:

If you want to keep up-to-date on all that's new with Apple, I highly
recommend the Today in iOS Podcast. It is a weekly, a little more than one
hour Podcast and it's usually well worth the listen. If you want the news in
a much shorter format without all the How-To questions and callers, then
check out the "Apple Bite" Podcast, it's only 5 or so minutes and highlights
the most important announcements. You can find both in your favourite
Podcast client and both would mention any new betas which came out as well
as when any new products go on sale like the fourth generation Apple TV
which will be available to preorder next Monday and it will start shipping
next Thursday.

Regards,
Sieghard



Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 7:50 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello Mark,
Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the
new release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few
less, really.

- Original Message -
From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




Hello Rajmund,

I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just
checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello,
I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either.
But is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?

- Original Message -
From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing




hi,

I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple
doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the
degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs
they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time
period between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think
the current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for
them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs
this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed
a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like
answering the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing
reasonably well overall.

Best,
Anna



On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Everyone,
Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X
last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and
a number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from
everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work.
Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the
masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There
are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that
the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I
can't live with.
Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a
thought, look at another clock or watch if I really want to know
what time it is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many
bugs and no one else does, widen your scope and look at Windows,
JAWS, any screen reader or assistive software, or any other widely
used mainstream software. All major releases has bugs to some
degree. If we waited for the software companies to fix the bugs
before they released the software, we would be waiting forever for
that next big thing.

Wayne

On 10/22/15, Christ

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Robin]

That's YourOpinion. And, it is MostLikely 
TheOpinion of many other TotallyBlind & LowVision iOSUsers


I, on the other hand, appreciate Google'sAndroid 
Microsoft'sWindows & Apple's iOS-OSX ... But, if 
you wanna know MyPreference, it's Microsoft, but 
I'll admit TheAccessibility isn't 
WhereItShouldBe, but isn't There On Apple OR Google neither


JustSaying
At 12:36 PM 10/23/2015, you wrote:
Finally someone who sees sense! It’s always 
the negativity that sticks around in the blind 
community even though sites like Applevis tries 
to tell about actual features of the system. 
It’s for the features and functionality i 
upgrade not to find things to bitch about. Call 
me a fan boy, but there’s a reason why i am, 
and it’s because Apples products even with 
bugs work way, way, way better than Windblows did on my PCs.

/Krister

> 23 okt. 2015 kl. 21:29 skrev Shawn Krasniuk <bbssh...@icloud.com>:
>
> So I have a question for the people that 
think Apple is doing us a huge disservice with 
these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you 
still using their products? If you really do 
feel that Apple's not taking any responsibility 
for us because we're poor little blind people 
which I refuse to be labelled that way, don't 
know about anyone else, why not go to a 
different operating system like Android? See, 
Krister has a point. No matter how long we take 
to beta test products and when the official 
release does come out, people always have to 
find something else to bitch about. It makes me 
wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for 
these spoiled folks that think everything 
should be perfect and go on bashing the people 
that are involved in trying to make the 
software a success. And then I remember that 
there are people that do appreciate what people 
like myself are doing. So to those people, 
thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint you.

>
> Shawn
> Sent From My White MacBook
> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
> Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
> Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com
>
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> hi.
>> very well said.
>> there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
>> what it can  be good for them, it may not be for others.
>> and for me it is not.
>> Apple has to take more responsibility for 
the blind community in this world.

>> some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
>> we do not need favors, but rights.
>> and we must fight for our rights.
>> and this is not just for Apple, but for all 
companies that do not respect us as they should
>> we always do our part in cooperation  in 
solving the problems, but the apple never treat 
us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.

>>
>> apple has the ability to solve the problems 
of the sighted, why  it also does not solve the 
problems of the blind with the same capacity?

>> blind are those who do not want to see ...
>>
>> and I'm blind, but I want to see!
>> and always want the best for me!
>> and if I am an apple user,
>> I'm also a client.
>> and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
>> and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
>> thank you for your words.
>> cheers.
>>
>> Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
>>> I can assure you, I'm not missing the 
point. The fact that Apple has a lot of 
products is irrelevant. Apple is also the 
wealthiest company in the world, due to the 
fact that they have a lot of successful 
products. I'm not going to cut them any slack 
because they have a lot of products since they 
also have a lot of resources. If they have too 
many products, and they can't maintain a 
certain level of quality across those products 
then they need to make some changes in 
priorities and business decisions. Note, I'm 
not saying Apple has a quality issue or that 
they don't care about accessibility. I'm just 
saying that the argument that they have a lot of products is bogus.

>>>
>>> I can't help it if you think the issues 
I've reported are trivial, but they certainly 
are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone 
every time I get a call when my headset is 
attached certainly impacts my ability to use my 
iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I 
can also tell you that I process a lot fewer 
emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver 
every time I reply to an email message. I use 
an iPhone for both my personal use and for my 
job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my 
ability to be productive at work.

>>>
>>> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less 
reluctant to recommend an iPhone to a blind 
user, at least not without telling them the 
bugs I'm

A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[M. Taylor]

Hello Everyone,

I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a problem,
regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not always
addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.  

It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the less
responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
appear to be to external testers.  

All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a future
release.

In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when bugs
get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they were
resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not testing
well enough.  

To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal liberties,
talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, refreshable
Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.  

Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may, in
some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.

So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep in
mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
much higher.

Most Sincerely,

Mark

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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as beta 
testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will be a 
tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been complained 
about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the fixes. Either it’s 
too bloody late or there’s too little or too much of everything. I’m the type 
of guy who upgrades every app and every Os to see what features are there and 
if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody’s perfect. As i said before i think it’s 
strange that Apple gets so many complaints about things that aren’t even their 
fault like apps that are not upgraded and so don’t work or such. In my time on 
Windows there wasn’t anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that 
”freedom scientific or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don’t give a 
fig about us”. So are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of 
code is ever bug free. Should we report them? Yes politely and with enough info 
to make the folks aware of the problem but i wonder if that’s the case when i 
hear the tone here and on other forums where  blind folks and Apple are the 
common denominator.

/Krister

> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>:
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a problem,
> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not always
> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.  
> 
> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the less
> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
> appear to be to external testers.  
> 
> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a future
> release.
> 
> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when bugs
> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they were
> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not testing
> well enough.  
> 
> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal liberties,
> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, refreshable
> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.  
> 
> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may, in
> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.
> 
> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep in
> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
> much higher.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> 
> Mark
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
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> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at 
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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
Just something. For the first time, ever, I unlocked my unit, and I noticed 
that it was silent. Then I remembered the time is no longer announced. I can't 
care less, but I found it strange at first. OK, not first time, but first time 
since the update. 

- Original Message -
From: Wayne Merritt  <wcmerr...@gmail.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 5:59 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> Everyone,
> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
> 
> Wayne
> 
> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
> > doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
> > be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
> > isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
> > something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
> > this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
> >
> > You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
> > mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
> > answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
> > bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
> > depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
> > about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
> > our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
> > because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
> >
> > I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go
> > before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific has
> > gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism
> > for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community.
> >
> >
> > On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as
> >> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will
> >> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been
> >> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the
> >> fixes. Either it's too bloody late or there's too little or too much of
> >> everything. I'm the type of guy who upgrades every app and every Os to see
> >> what features are there and if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody's
> >> perfect. As i said before i think it's strange that Apple gets so many
> >> complaints about things that aren't even their fault like apps that are
> >> not upgraded and so don't work or such. In my time on Windows there wasn't
> >> anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that "freedom scientific
> >> or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don't give a fig about us". So
> >> are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of code is ever
> >> bug free. Should we report them?
> >  Yes politely and with enough info to make the folks aware of the problem
> > but i wonder if that's the case when i hear the tone here and on other
> > forums where  blind folks and Apple are the common denominator.
> >>
> >> /Krister
> >>
> >>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>:
> >>>

RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Connie Mohney]

Hi Anna,
Just because I'm curious, what does someone have to do to become a beta tester? 
Do you have to have any certification or experience? Are you an apple employee? 
 Thank you for answering my questions.
Connie 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Woody Anna Dresner
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 1:10 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing


hi,

I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple doesn't 
get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree of feedback 
I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have fixed that I've 
reported. I wish there was a longer time period between WWDC in June and iPhone 
releases in September, as I think the current timeline is incredibly tight. It 
seems to be too tight for them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely 
trying, most of the bugs this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, 
and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial 
ones like answering the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing 
reasonably well overall.

Best,
Anna


> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Everyone,
> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last 
> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number 
> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone 
> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with 
> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the 
> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are 
> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have 
> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought, 
> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it 
> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one 
> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen 
> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream 
> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for 
> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the 
> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
> 
> Wayne
> 
> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that 
>> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your 
>> target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't 
>> going to do something because of a negative reaction by a minority of 
>> members on this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
>> 
>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't 
>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 
>> 9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails 
>> is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've 
>> come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on 
>> this list about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We 
>> all don't use our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment 
>> on another user because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
>> 
>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to 
>> go before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom 
>> Scientific has gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't 
>> see the fan boyism for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness 
>> community.
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we 
>>> as beta testers might say? For every release there has been and 
>>> probably will be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if 
>>> what has been complained about would be fixed to perfection they 
>>> complain about the fixes. Either it’s too bloody late or there’s too 
>>> little or too much of everything. I’m the type of guy who upgrades 
>>> every app and every Os to see what features are there and if there 
>>> are bugs, well shrug, nobody’s perfect. As i said before i think 
>>> it’s strange that Apple gets so many complaints abo

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello,
I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either. But is 
the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?

- Original Message -
From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> hi,
> 
> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple doesn't 
> get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree of 
> feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have 
> fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period between WWDC 
> in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the current timeline is 
> incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them to fix everything. But 
> Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this year affected fewer users 
> than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was 
> released, including crucial ones like answering the phone and the focus 
> issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well overall.
> 
> Best,
> Anna
> 
> 
> > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Everyone,
> > Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
> > year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
> > were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
> > across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
> > iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
> > buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
> > bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
> > been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
> > Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
> > press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
> > screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
> > look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
> > is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
> > else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
> > reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
> > software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
> > the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
> > software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
> > 
> > Wayne
> > 
> > On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
> >> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
> >> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
> >> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
> >> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
> >> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
> >> 
> >> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
> >> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
> >> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
> >> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
> >> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
> >> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
> >> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
> >> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
> >> 
> >> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go
> >> before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific has
> >> gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism
> >> for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as
> >>> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will
> >>> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been
> >>> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the
> >>> fixes. Either it's too bloody late or there's too little or too much of
> >>> everything. I'm the type of guy who upgrades every app and ev

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Christopher Chaltain]

Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will 
be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target 
isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do 
something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on 
this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.


You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't 
mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9, 
answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so 
bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to 
depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list 
about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use 
our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user 
because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.


I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go 
before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific has 
gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism 
for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community.



On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

Hi,
Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as beta 
testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will be a 
tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been complained 
about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the fixes. Either it’s 
too bloody late or there’s too little or too much of everything. I’m the type 
of guy who upgrades every app and every Os to see what features are there and 
if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody’s perfect. As i said before i think it’s 
strange that Apple gets so many complaints about things that aren’t even their 
fault like apps that are not upgraded and so don’t work or such. In my time on 
Windows there wasn’t anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that 
”freedom scientific or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don’t give a 
fig about us”. So are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of 
code is ever bug free. Should we report them?

Yes politely and with enough info to make the folks aware of the problem but i 
wonder if that’s the case when i hear the tone here and on other forums where  
blind folks and Apple are the common denominator.


/Krister


22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>:

Hello Everyone,

I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a problem,
regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not always
addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.

It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the less
responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
appear to be to external testers.

All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a future
release.

In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when bugs
get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they were
resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not testing
well enough.

To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal liberties,
talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, refreshable
Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.

Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may, in
some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.

So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep in
mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
much higher.

Most Sincerely,

Mark

--
The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at 
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[John Diakogeorgiou]

To be a publick beta tester go to beta.apple.com and sign up for the
program. When this is done, on the phone, go to beta.apple.com/profile
and install the profile app. You will need to restart the phone. When
a beta is available, you will see it in the usual upgrade location.

On 10/22/15, Woody Anna Dresner <wadres...@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Connie,
>
> I joined the developer program a couple of years ago, which means a yearly
> payment and access to the betas. There has been a public beta program all
> year as well; I'm not sure how you sign up for it though.
>
> Best,
> Anna
>
>
>
>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Connie Mohney <cmohney1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Anna,
>> Just because I'm curious, what does someone have to do to become a beta
>> tester? Do you have to have any certification or experience? Are you an
>> apple employee?  Thank you for answering my questions.
>> Connie
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
>> Of Woody Anna Dresner
>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 1:10 PM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>
>>
>> hi,
>>
>> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple
>> doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the
>> degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs
>> they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period
>> between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the
>> current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them to
>> fix everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this year
>> affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot of
>> bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like answering the
>> phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well
>> overall.
>>
>> Best,
>> Anna
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Everyone,
>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
>>> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
>>> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
>>> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
>>> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
>>> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
>>> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
>>> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
>>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
>>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
>>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
>>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
>>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
>>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
>>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
>>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
>>> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
>>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
>>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that
>>>> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your
>>>> target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't
>>>> going to do something because of a negative reaction by a minority of
>>>> members on this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
>>>>
>>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
>>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS
>>>> 9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails
>>>> is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've
>>>> come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on
>>>> this list about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We
>>>> all don't

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Woody Anna Dresner]

Hi Connie,

I joined the developer program a couple of years ago, which means a yearly 
payment and access to the betas. There has been a public beta program all year 
as well; I'm not sure how you sign up for it though.

Best,
Anna



> On Oct 22, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Connie Mohney <cmohney1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Anna,
> Just because I'm curious, what does someone have to do to become a beta 
> tester? Do you have to have any certification or experience? Are you an apple 
> employee?  Thank you for answering my questions.
> Connie 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Woody Anna Dresner
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 1:10 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> 
> hi,
> 
> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple doesn't 
> get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree of 
> feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have 
> fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period between WWDC 
> in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the current timeline is 
> incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them to fix everything. But 
> Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this year affected fewer users 
> than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was 
> released, including crucial ones like answering the phone and the focus 
> issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well overall.
> 
> Best,
> Anna
> 
> 
>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Everyone,
>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last 
>> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number 
>> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone 
>> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with 
>> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the 
>> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are 
>> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have 
>> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought, 
>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it 
>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one 
>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen 
>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream 
>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for 
>> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the 
>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
>> 
>> Wayne
>> 
>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that 
>>> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your 
>>> target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't 
>>> going to do something because of a negative reaction by a minority of 
>>> members on this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
>>> 
>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't 
>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 
>>> 9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails 
>>> is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've 
>>> come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on 
>>> this list about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We 
>>> all don't use our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment 
>>> on another user because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
>>> 
>>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to 
>>> go before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom 
>>> Scientific has gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't 
>>> see the fan boyism for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness 
>>> community.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Very well said Mark

RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Connie Mohney]

Thank you John and Anna.  
I appreciate the information.  I think I will wait until I can get a phone with 
more memory on it as I only have an 8 gig 4S  
Connie

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
John Diakogeorgiou
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:44 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

To be a publick beta tester go to beta.apple.com and sign up for the program. 
When this is done, on the phone, go to beta.apple.com/profile and install the 
profile app. You will need to restart the phone. When a beta is available, you 
will see it in the usual upgrade location.

On 10/22/15, Woody Anna Dresner <wadres...@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Connie,
>
> I joined the developer program a couple of years ago, which means a 
> yearly payment and access to the betas. There has been a public beta 
> program all year as well; I'm not sure how you sign up for it though.
>
> Best,
> Anna
>
>
>
>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Connie Mohney <cmohney1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Anna,
>> Just because I'm curious, what does someone have to do to become a 
>> beta tester? Do you have to have any certification or experience? Are 
>> you an apple employee?  Thank you for answering my questions.
>> Connie
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
>> Behalf Of Woody Anna Dresner
>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 1:10 PM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
>>
>>
>> hi,
>>
>> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple 
>> doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the 
>> degree of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the 
>> bugs they have fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer 
>> time period between WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as 
>> I think the current timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too 
>> tight for them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely trying, 
>> most of the bugs this year affected fewer users than last year's 
>> bugs, and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, 
>> including crucial ones like answering the phone and the focus issues. 
>> So I think they're doing reasonably well overall.
>>
>> Best,
>> Anna
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Everyone,
>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
>>> last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a 
>>> number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
>>> everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work. 
>>> Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the 
>>> masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There 
>>> are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that 
>>> the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I 
>>> can't live with.
>>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
>>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
>>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a 
>>> thought, look at another clock or watch if I really want to know 
>>> what time it is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many 
>>> bugs and no one else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, 
>>> JAWS, any screen reader or assistive software, or any other widely 
>>> used mainstream software. All major releases has bugs to some 
>>> degree. If we waited for the software companies to fix the bugs 
>>> before they released the software, we would be waiting forever for that 
>>> next big thing.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
>>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that 
>>>> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. 
>>>> Your target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you 
>>>> weren't going to do something because of a negative reaction by a 
>>>> minority of members on this list or in any community then you'd never do 
>>>> anything.
>>>>
>>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you up

RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[M. Taylor]

Hello Rajmund,

I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just checked 
the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Rajmund
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

Hello,
I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either. But is 
the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?

- Original Message -
From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> hi,
> 
> I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple doesn't 
> get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree of 
> feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have 
> fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period between WWDC 
> in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the current timeline is 
> incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them to fix everything. But 
> Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this year affected fewer users 
> than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was 
> released, including crucial ones like answering the phone and the focus 
> issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well overall.
> 
> Best,
> Anna
> 
> 
> > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Everyone,
> > Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
> > last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a 
> > number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
> > everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work. 
> > Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the 
> > masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There 
> > are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that 
> > the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I 
> > can't live with.
> > Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
> > press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
> > screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a 
> > thought, look at another clock or watch if I really want to know 
> > what time it is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many 
> > bugs and no one else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, 
> > JAWS, any screen reader or assistive software, or any other widely 
> > used mainstream software. All major releases has bugs to some 
> > degree. If we waited for the software companies to fix the bugs 
> > before they released the software, we would be waiting forever for that 
> > next big thing.
> > 
> > Wayne
> > 
> > On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
> >> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that 
> >> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. 
> >> Your target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you 
> >> weren't going to do something because of a negative reaction by a 
> >> minority of members on this list or in any community then you'd never do 
> >> anything.
> >> 
> >> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that 
> >> doesn't mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but 
> >> with IOS 9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding 
> >> to emails is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two 
> >> tasks I've come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much 
> >> judgment on this list about the impacts certain bugs have on 
> >> different users. We all don't use our phones the same way, so we 
> >> shouldn't pass judgment on another user because they're more impacted by a 
> >> bug than we are.
> >> 
> >> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways 
> >> to go before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom 
> >> Scientific has gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't 
> >> see the fan boyism for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness 
> >> community.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>> Very well said Mark, but what i 

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Rajmund]

Hello Mark,
Thanks much for checking into it for me; its appreciated. :) Although, the new 
release can't be that bad, there's only one new bug, and quite a few less, 
really. 

- Original Message -
From: M. Taylor  <mk...@ucla.edu>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 am
Subject: RE: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

>
>
> Hello Rajmund,
> 
> I don't think it a breach of any protocol to let you know that, I just 
> checked the beta site and there has been no future beta posted, yet.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Rajmund
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:40 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> Hello,
> I know people can't speak about  it, and I don't expect them to, either. But 
> is the new IOS version in beta, already, or not quite yet?
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Woody Anna Dresner  <wadres...@att.net>
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:10 pm
> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> 
> >
> >
> > hi,
> > 
> > I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple 
> > doesn't get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree 
> > of feedback I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have 
> > fixed that I've reported. I wish there was a longer time period between 
> > WWDC in June and iPhone releases in September, as I think the current 
> > timeline is incredibly tight. It seems to be too tight for them to fix 
> > everything. But Apple is definitely trying, most of the bugs this year 
> > affected fewer users than last year's bugs, and they've fixed a lot of bugs 
> > since iOS 9 was released, including crucial ones like answering the phone 
> > and the focus issues. So I think they're doing reasonably well overall.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Anna
> > 
> > 
> > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Everyone,
> > > Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X 
> > > last year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a 
> > > number were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from 
> > > everyone across the board for putting out things that didn't work. 
> > > Now, with iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the 
> > > masses for the buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There 
> > > are things that are bugs for some and not for others, but now that 
> > > the focus issues have been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I 
> > > can't live with.
> > > Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I 
> > > press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the 
> > > screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a 
> > > thought, look at another clock or watch if I really want to know 
> > > what time it is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many 
> > > bugs and no one else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, 
> > > JAWS, any screen reader or assistive software, or any other widely 
> > > used mainstream software. All major releases has bugs to some 
> > > degree. If we waited for the software companies to fix the bugs 
> > > before they released the software, we would be waiting forever for that 
> > > next big thing.
> > > 
> > > Wayne
> > > 
> > > On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple 
> > >> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that 
> > >> will be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. 
> > >> Your target isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you 
> > >> weren't going to do something because of a negative reaction by a 
> > >> minority of members on this list or in any community then you'd never do 
> > >> anything.
> > >> 
> > >> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that 
> > >> doesn't mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but 
> > >> with IOS 9, answering phone calls with a headset on and responding 
> > >> to emails is so bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two 
> > >> tasks I've come to depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much 
> > >> jud

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Shawn Krasniuk]

Well said Mark. I beta test products not because I have to, but because I want 
to, and don't expect thanks for doing so. I believe that if I offer my help, 
I'm doing something good for the blind community. And if a bug gets squashed 
because of my contribution, cool. If not, oh well. That's why I'll continue to 
be a beta tester for both iOS and OS X.

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook
Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com

> On Oct 22, 2015, at 1:33 AM, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a problem,
> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not always
> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.  
> 
> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the less
> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
> appear to be to external testers.  
> 
> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a future
> release.
> 
> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when bugs
> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they were
> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not testing
> well enough.  
> 
> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal liberties,
> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, refreshable
> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.  
> 
> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may, in
> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.
> 
> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep in
> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
> much higher.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> 
> Mark
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Alan Paganelli]

I'v done some beta testing in my life time because I wanted to help out and 
because I wanted to play with the latest and greatest.  Sometimes, that meant 
that I was going to run into trouble.  Then I had to make my report and wait 
for instructions.  Sometimes they wanted me to try this, that, or the other.  
Sometimes I was able to get out of  it myself and had to document the steps I 
took to get out of it so that others could verify my findings.  I enjoyed 
myself wile doing it.

Alan

Sent from my iPad Air

> On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:44 AM, Shawn Krasniuk <bbssh...@icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> Well said Mark. I beta test products not because I have to, but because I 
> want to, and don't expect thanks for doing so. I believe that if I offer my 
> help, I'm doing something good for the blind community. And if a bug gets 
> squashed because of my contribution, cool. If not, oh well. That's why I'll 
> continue to be a beta tester for both iOS and OS X.
> 
> Shawn
> Sent From My White MacBook
> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
> Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
> Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
> Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com
> 
>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 1:33 AM, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Everyone,
>> 
>> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
>> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a problem,
>> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not always
>> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.  
>> 
>> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the less
>> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
>> appear to be to external testers.  
>> 
>> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
>> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a future
>> release.
>> 
>> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when bugs
>> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they were
>> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not testing
>> well enough.  
>> 
>> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
>> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
>> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal liberties,
>> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, refreshable
>> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.  
>> 
>> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
>> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may, in
>> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.
>> 
>> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep in
>> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
>> much higher.
>> 
>> Most Sincerely,
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Alan Paganelli]

Some folks will complain even if you hang them with a new rope.  Others just 
waste balloon juice.


Alan

Sent from my iPad Air

> On Oct 22, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom <kris...@kristersplace.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as beta 
> testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will be a 
> tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been complained 
> about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the fixes. Either it’s 
> too bloody late or there’s too little or too much of everything. I’m the type 
> of guy who upgrades every app and every Os to see what features are there and 
> if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody’s perfect. As i said before i think 
> it’s strange that Apple gets so many complaints about things that aren’t even 
> their fault like apps that are not upgraded and so don’t work or such. In my 
> time on Windows there wasn’t anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said 
> that ”freedom scientific or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don’t 
> give a fig about us”. So are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big 
> chunk of code is ever bug free. Should we report them? Yes politely and with 
> enough info to make the folks aware of the problem but i wonder if that’s the 
> case when i hear the tone here and on other forums where  blind folks and 
> Apple are the common denominator.
> 
> /Krister
> 
>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>:
>> 
>> Hello Everyone,
>> 
>> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
>> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a problem,
>> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not always
>> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.  
>> 
>> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the less
>> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
>> appear to be to external testers.  
>> 
>> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
>> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a future
>> release.
>> 
>> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when bugs
>> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they were
>> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not testing
>> well enough.  
>> 
>> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
>> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
>> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal liberties,
>> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, refreshable
>> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.  
>> 
>> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
>> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may, in
>> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.
>> 
>> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep in
>> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
>> much higher.
>> 
>> Most Sincerely,
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
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>> "VIPhone" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Wayne Merritt]

Everyone,
Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.

Wayne

On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
>
> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
>
> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go
> before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific has
> gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism
> for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community.
>
>
> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as
>> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will
>> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been
>> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the
>> fixes. Either it’s too bloody late or there’s too little or too much of
>> everything. I’m the type of guy who upgrades every app and every Os to see
>> what features are there and if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody’s
>> perfect. As i said before i think it’s strange that Apple gets so many
>> complaints about things that aren’t even their fault like apps that are
>> not upgraded and so don’t work or such. In my time on Windows there wasn’t
>> anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that ”freedom scientific
>> or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don’t give a fig about us”. So
>> are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of code is ever
>> bug free. Should we report them?
>  Yes politely and with enough info to make the folks aware of the problem
> but i wonder if that’s the case when i hear the tone here and on other
> forums where  blind folks and Apple are the common denominator.
>>
>> /Krister
>>
>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>:
>>>
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>
>>> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
>>> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a
>>> problem,
>>> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not
>>> always
>>> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.
>>>
>>> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the
>>> less
>>> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
>>> appear to be to external testers.
>>>
>>> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
>>> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a
>>

Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing

[Woody Anna Dresner]

hi,

I've been beta testing iOS for a couple of years now, and while Apple doesn't 
get to all the bugs right away, I have been pleased with the degree of feedback 
I've gotten from their engineering staff and the bugs they have fixed that I've 
reported. I wish there was a longer time period between WWDC in June and iPhone 
releases in September, as I think the current timeline is incredibly tight. It 
seems to be too tight for them to fix everything. But Apple is definitely 
trying, most of the bugs this year affected fewer users than last year's bugs, 
and they've fixed a lot of bugs since iOS 9 was released, including crucial 
ones like answering the phone and the focus issues. So I think they're doing 
reasonably well overall.

Best,
Anna


> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Everyone,
> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
> 
> Wayne
> 
> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
>> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
>> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
>> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
>> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
>> 
>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
>> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
>> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
>> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
>> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
>> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
>> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
>> 
>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go
>> before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific has
>> gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism
>> for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community.
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as
>>> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will
>>> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been
>>> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the
>>> fixes. Either it’s too bloody late or there’s too little or too much of
>>> everything. I’m the type of guy who upgrades every app and every Os to see
>>> what features are there and if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody’s
>>> perfect. As i said before i think it’s strange that Apple gets so many
>>> complaints about things that aren’t even their fault like apps that are
>>> not upgraded and so don’t work or such. In my time on Windows there wasn’t
>>> anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that ”freedom scientific
>>> or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don’t give a fig about us”. So
>>> are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of code is ever
>>> bug free. Should we report them?
>> Yes politely and with enough info 

Re: A Correction In Regards to iOS Beta Testing

[Davy Cuppens]

OK Oso I understand that people that have no MAC can never enrole their iPhones 
to get an invite to betatest.
Regards
DAvy 

From: Shawn Krasniuk 
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 6:16 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: A Correction In Regards to iOS Beta Testing

Yes. You need to enroll your Mac and install the beta for OS X Yosemite in 
order to get the iOS invite.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2015, at 12:11 AM, Ioana Gandrabur igandra...@gmail.com wrote:


  Dos anyone know if I have to enroll my mac in the beta program to get the ios 
invite? 
  I'm not really intrested to beta test osx and have signed up but no luck with 
invitation. 




  Sent from my iPhone

  On Mar 14, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:


Do you have a Mac? If so, you sign up for the OS X beta, then you should be 
getting an invite for the iOS beta. 

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook

  On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:13 PM, Ioana Gandrabur igandra...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hello,

  Thanks for the link. However I still don't quite get how it's supposed to 
work. Here is what I am reading on that page.
  The program is invite-only, but anyone can sign up online for the OS X 
Beta project via the Beta Software Program site, Apple said.

  So I have signed up for the program but then how does it only work with 
an invitation? Still confused.

  Thanks for any clarification you can give us.

  All the best,

  Ioana 

  Sent from my iPhone

  On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:


Hi all. I have to correct myself here. In this link I'm about to post, 
it says that anyone, not the first hundred thousand users, who took part in the 
OS X Yosemite beta can take part in the iOS Beta. Here's the link. 
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook


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A Correction In Regards to iOS Beta Testing

[Shawn Krasniuk]

Hi all. I have to correct myself here. In this link I'm about to post, it says 
that anyone, not the first hundred thousand users, who took part in the OS X 
Yosemite beta can take part in the iOS Beta. Here's the link.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp 
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook

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Re: A Correction In Regards to iOS Beta Testing

[Ioana Gandrabur]

Hello,

Thanks for the link. However I still don't quite get how it's supposed to work. 
Here is what I am reading on that page.
The program is invite-only, but anyone can sign up online for the OS X Beta 
project via the Beta Software Program site, Apple said.

So I have signed up for the program but then how does it only work with an 
invitation? Still confused.

Thanks for any clarification you can give us.

All the best,

Ioana 

Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:
 
 Hi all. I have to correct myself here. In this link I'm about to post, it 
 says that anyone, not the first hundred thousand users, who took part in the 
 OS X Yosemite beta can take part in the iOS Beta. Here's the link.
 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp
 
 Shawn
 Sent From My White MacBook
 
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Re: A Correction In Regards to iOS Beta Testing

[Shawn Krasniuk]

Do you have a Mac? If so, you sign up for the OS X beta, then you should be 
getting an invite for the iOS beta.

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook

 On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:13 PM, Ioana Gandrabur igandra...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hello,
 
 Thanks for the link. However I still don't quite get how it's supposed to 
 work. Here is what I am reading on that page.
 The program is invite-only, but anyone can sign up online for the OS X Beta 
 project via the Beta Software Program site, Apple said.
 
 So I have signed up for the program but then how does it only work with an 
 invitation? Still confused.
 
 Thanks for any clarification you can give us.
 
 All the best,
 
 Ioana 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com 
 mailto:bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:
 
 Hi all. I have to correct myself here. In this link I'm about to post, it 
 says that anyone, not the first hundred thousand users, who took part in the 
 OS X Yosemite beta can take part in the iOS Beta. Here's the link.
 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp 
 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp
 
 Shawn
 Sent From My White MacBook
 
 
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Re: A Correction In Regards to iOS Beta Testing

[Ioana Gandrabur]

Dos anyone know if I have to enroll my mac in the beta program to get the ios 
invite? 
I'm not really intrested to beta test osx and have signed up but no luck with 
invitation. 




Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 14, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:
 
 Do you have a Mac? If so, you sign up for the OS X beta, then you should be 
 getting an invite for the iOS beta.
 
 Shawn
 Sent From My White MacBook
 
 On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:13 PM, Ioana Gandrabur igandra...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hello,
 
 Thanks for the link. However I still don't quite get how it's supposed to 
 work. Here is what I am reading on that page.
 The program is invite-only, but anyone can sign up online for the OS X Beta 
 project via the Beta Software Program site, Apple said.
 
 So I have signed up for the program but then how does it only work with an 
 invitation? Still confused.
 
 Thanks for any clarification you can give us.
 
 All the best,
 
 Ioana 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:
 
 Hi all. I have to correct myself here. In this link I'm about to post, it 
 says that anyone, not the first hundred thousand users, who took part in 
 the OS X Yosemite beta can take part in the iOS Beta. Here's the link.
 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp
 
 Shawn
 Sent From My White MacBook
 
 
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Re: A Correction In Regards to iOS Beta Testing

[Shawn Krasniuk]

Yes. You need to enroll your Mac and install the beta for OS X Yosemite in 
order to get the iOS invite.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 15, 2015, at 12:11 AM, Ioana Gandrabur igandra...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Dos anyone know if I have to enroll my mac in the beta program to get the ios 
 invite? 
 I'm not really intrested to beta test osx and have signed up but no luck with 
 invitation. 
 
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 14, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:
 
 Do you have a Mac? If so, you sign up for the OS X beta, then you should be 
 getting an invite for the iOS beta.
 
 Shawn
 Sent From My White MacBook
 
 On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:13 PM, Ioana Gandrabur igandra...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hello,
 
 Thanks for the link. However I still don't quite get how it's supposed to 
 work. Here is what I am reading on that page.
 The program is invite-only, but anyone can sign up online for the OS X Beta 
 project via the Beta Software Program site, Apple said.
 
 So I have signed up for the program but then how does it only work with an 
 invitation? Still confused.
 
 Thanks for any clarification you can give us.
 
 All the best,
 
 Ioana 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 14, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Shawn Krasniuk bbssh...@icloud.com wrote:
 
 Hi all. I have to correct myself here. In this link I'm about to post, it 
 says that anyone, not the first hundred thousand users, who took part in 
 the OS X Yosemite beta can take part in the iOS Beta. Here's the link.
 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2478244,00.asp
 
 Shawn
 Sent From My White MacBook
 
 
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Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

[Rocket]

Why is it such a big deal to want to be a veta tester?  Does one get paid or 
rewarded in some way for doing this for a private company? 

Marco the rocket! 
Sent from my iPad

On 2013-02-27, at 7:34, Ekstrand, Pamela A. -ND 
pamela.a.ekstrand@disney.com wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I just called the toll free number in the email.  But I was told they have 
 reached the maximum number of people they can have for the trial.  They did 
 take my email address in case they can work something else out, though.
 
 Pam
 
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DJ 
 [grou...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM
 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Subject: RE: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 I sure would like to know what the e-mail address is to reply to in order to
 receive the test flight information?  Does anyone have such information and
 is willing to share it?  Thank you.
 
 DJ
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
 Of Chuck Dean
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:23 AM
 To: VIPhone
 Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 Hi Richard,
 The on line conference, Showing the Seeing Eye GPS iPhone App.
 on , Friday,, March 1: 2:00 - 3:00 PM,
 
 It doesn't say what time zone?
 
 
 
 

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RE: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hi Marco,

No, you don't get paid and the only reward is that you get to play with an
app before it is publically available. People who enjoy testing technology
products whether it's a hardwear device or a piece of software do get some
satisfaction from that and, of course, they also have the reward of being
part of making an app better for the rest of us, discover bugs and suggest
new features which may end up in the final app.


Regards,
Sieghard


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Rocket
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:00 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free
preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

Why is it such a big deal to want to be a veta tester?  Does one get paid or
rewarded in some way for doing this for a private company? 

Marco the rocket! 
Sent from my iPad

On 2013-02-27, at 7:34, Ekstrand, Pamela A. -ND
pamela.a.ekstrand@disney.com wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I just called the toll free number in the email.  But I was told they have
reached the maximum number of people they can have for the trial.  They did
take my email address in case they can work something else out, though.
 
 Pam
 
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DJ
[grou...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM
 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Subject: RE: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013
Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 I sure would like to know what the e-mail address is to reply to in order
to
 receive the test flight information?  Does anyone have such information
and
 is willing to share it?  Thank you.
 
 DJ
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
 Of Chuck Dean
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:23 AM
 To: VIPhone
 Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 Hi Richard,
 The on line conference, Showing the Seeing Eye GPS iPhone App.
 on , Friday,, March 1: 2:00 - 3:00 PM,
 
 It doesn't say what time zone?
 
 
 
 

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Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

[Peter Holdstock]

Because you get your hands on the product well before everyone else (not 
something everyone wants I guess) and you get to have a massive influence in 
how the app functions and turns out. Imagine being able to create the app 
you really want. It's very satisfying for some to also spot the bugs and see 
the changes which come from it.


Peter

-Original Message- 
From: Rocket

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:00 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free 
preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!


Why is it such a big deal to want to be a veta tester?  Does one get paid or 
rewarded in some way for doing this for a private company?


Marco the rocket!
Sent from my iPad

On 2013-02-27, at 7:34, Ekstrand, Pamela A. -ND 
pamela.a.ekstrand@disney.com wrote:



Hi,

I just called the toll free number in the email.  But I was told they have 
reached the maximum number of people they can have for the trial.  They 
did take my email address in case they can work something else out, 
though.


Pam

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DJ 
[grou...@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 
Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!


I sure would like to know what the e-mail address is to reply to in order 
to
receive the test flight information?  Does anyone have such information 
and

is willing to share it?  Thank you.

DJ


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Chuck Dean
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:23 AM
To: VIPhone
Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013
Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

Hi Richard,
The on line conference, Showing the Seeing Eye GPS iPhone App.
on , Friday,, March 1: 2:00 - 3:00 PM,

It doesn't say what time zone?






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Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

a couple of reasons I think.  First, you usually get the app or, whatever your 
testing for free.  Second, its cool to have something before everyone else, 
although you are not permitted to talk about it.  Lastly, for me at least, It 
is a good feeling knowing that your comments and suggestions might help improve 
a product for thousands of people.

hth

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Feb 28, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Rocket n...@migotti.net wrote:

 Why is it such a big deal to want to be a veta tester?  Does one get paid or 
 rewarded in some way for doing this for a private company? 
 
 Marco the rocket! 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On 2013-02-27, at 7:34, Ekstrand, Pamela A. -ND 
 pamela.a.ekstrand@disney.com wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 I just called the toll free number in the email.  But I was told they have 
 reached the maximum number of people they can have for the trial.  They did 
 take my email address in case they can work something else out, though.
 
 Pam
 
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DJ 
 [grou...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM
 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Subject: RE: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 I sure would like to know what the e-mail address is to reply to in order to
 receive the test flight information?  Does anyone have such information and
 is willing to share it?  Thank you.
 
 DJ
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
 Of Chuck Dean
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:23 AM
 To: VIPhone
 Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 Hi Richard,
 The on line conference, Showing the Seeing Eye GPS iPhone App.
 on , Friday,, March 1: 2:00 - 3:00 PM,
 
 It doesn't say what time zone?
 
 
 
 
 
 -- 
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Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

[Rocket]

Maybe next time when a developer advertises for beta testers, i'll put in my 
name to be a potential tester. Thanks for the responses. 

Marco the rocket 
Sent from my iPad

On 2013-02-28, at 12:16, Peter Holdstock ptrholdst...@gmail.com wrote:

 Because you get your hands on the product well before everyone else (not 
 something everyone wants I guess) and you get to have a massive influence in 
 how the app functions and turns out. Imagine being able to create the app you 
 really want. It's very satisfying for some to also spot the bugs and see the 
 changes which come from it.
 
 Peter
 
 -Original Message- From: Rocket
 Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:00 PM
 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, 
 new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 Why is it such a big deal to want to be a veta tester?  Does one get paid or 
 rewarded in some way for doing this for a private company?
 
 Marco the rocket!
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On 2013-02-27, at 7:34, Ekstrand, Pamela A. -ND 
 pamela.a.ekstrand@disney.com wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 I just called the toll free number in the email.  But I was told they have 
 reached the maximum number of people they can have for the trial.  They did 
 take my email address in case they can work something else out, though.
 
 Pam
 
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DJ 
 [grou...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM
 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Subject: RE: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 I sure would like to know what the e-mail address is to reply to in order to
 receive the test flight information?  Does anyone have such information and
 is willing to share it?  Thank you.
 
 DJ
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
 Of Chuck Dean
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:23 AM
 To: VIPhone
 Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!
 
 Hi Richard,
 The on line conference, Showing the Seeing Eye GPS iPhone App.
 on , Friday,, March 1: 2:00 - 3:00 PM,
 
 It doesn't say what time zone?
 
 -- 
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Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

[Christopher Chaltain]

It used to be the case that you also got a deal on the product when it
was released, like a discount or something for being a beta tester. As
you can see, since so many people want to be beta testers, companies
don't have to offer such incentives, and some companies even charge
people to be beta testers.

A good beta tester and a good beta testing program do place some burdens
on the beta tester. You have to keep details about the product you're
beta testing confidential, and you're usually expected to provide
feedback, both good and bad, so it's more than just an opportunity to
get your hands on an app before everyone else.

On 28/02/13 17:54, Rocket wrote:
 Maybe next time when a developer advertises for beta testers, i'll put in my 
 name to be a potential tester. Thanks for the responses. 
 
 Marco the rocket 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On 2013-02-28, at 12:16, Peter Holdstock ptrholdst...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Because you get your hands on the product well before everyone else (not 
 something everyone wants I guess) and you get to have a massive influence in 
 how the app functions and turns out. Imagine being able to create the app 
 you really want. It's very satisfying for some to also spot the bugs and see 
 the changes which come from it.

 Peter

 -Original Message- From: Rocket
 Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:00 PM
 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: beta testing was Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free 
 preview, new 2013 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

 Why is it such a big deal to want to be a veta tester?  Does one get paid or 
 rewarded in some way for doing this for a private company?

 Marco the rocket!
 Sent from my iPad

 On 2013-02-27, at 7:34, Ekstrand, Pamela A. -ND 
 pamela.a.ekstrand@disney.com wrote:

 Hi,

 I just called the toll free number in the email.  But I was told they have 
 reached the maximum number of people they can have for the trial.  They did 
 take my email address in case they can work something else out, though.

 Pam
 
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DJ 
 [grou...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM
 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Subject: RE: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013 
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

 I sure would like to know what the e-mail address is to reply to in order to
 receive the test flight information?  Does anyone have such information and
 is willing to share it?  Thank you.

 DJ


 -Original Message-
 From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
 Of Chuck Dean
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:23 AM
 To: VIPhone
 Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcing the Seeing Eye GPS app free preview, new 2013
 Sendero products, and remote CSUN access!

 Hi Richard,
 The on line conference, Showing the Seeing Eye GPS iPhone App.
 on , Friday,, March 1: 2:00 - 3:00 PM,

 It doesn't say what time zone?

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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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