Brent: PS!
I did not refer to YOUR ignorance as conventional, I formulated a negligent
sentence for the ignorance of our convetnional sciences.
I am polite enough to call 'peoples' ignorance an agnosticism.
John
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 12:17 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On
Brent and Craig:
Interesting back-and-forth on conventional ignorance basis.
We (in physics etc.) identified 'atoms' by mostly mathematical
treatment of poorly (if at all) understood phenomenal information (?)
limited to the capability pf the 'then' human mind.
Now 'we' invented zombies, as a
On 4/18/2012 1:08 PM, John Mikes wrote:
Brent and Craig:
Interesting back-and-forth on conventional ignorance basis.
My ignorance isn't a convention - it's the real thing. :-)
Brent
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On Apr 8, 2:10 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
That doesn't follow. It assmes that zombieness is an attribute of components
rather than
of their functional organization. There can obviously be zombie
(unconscious) components
(e.g. quarks and electrons) which when properly
On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
So you think you'll be just as conscious if your atoms are rearranged? LOL
You think you'll be just as conscious if I arrange you out of golf
balls instead of atoms?
What you are not
On 4/17/2012 10:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
So you think you'll be just as conscious if your atoms are rearranged? LOL
You think you'll be just as conscious if I arrange you out of golf
On Apr 17, 1:49 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/17/2012 10:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
So you think you'll be just as conscious if your atoms are rearranged? LOL
You
On 4/17/2012 11:30 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 17, 1:49 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/17/2012 10:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote:
On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
So you think you'll be just as conscious
On Apr 17, 3:05 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
But a very slight rearrangement by your local anesthesiologist and *you*
don't have any
sense at all - even though the atoms are still there. Of course they are
entirely
different atoms than were constituting you a year ago.
I can
On 4/17/2012 12:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 17, 3:05 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
But a very slight rearrangement by your local anesthesiologist and *you* don't
have any
sense at all - even though the atoms are still there. Of course they are
entirely
different atoms
On Apr 17, 3:45 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/17/2012 12:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 17, 3:05 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
But a very slight rearrangement by your local anesthesiologist and *you*
don't have any
sense at all - even though the atoms
As this topic is touching on both philosophical zombies and deism, I
recommend a reading of Bernardo Kastrup's essay, The parallels of
Pandeism: http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2010/03/consciousness-and-pandeism.html
-- wherein Kastrup observes some intriguing parallels between the
debate around
On 4/9/2012 6:20 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 4:10 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote:
But is it an empirical question? What would it mean for
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 1:18 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
A zombie brain component is a component that replicates the function
of the tissue it replaces but does not replicate its contribution to
consciousness, such as it may be. The visual cortex is necessary for
visual
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
But is it an empirical question? What would it mean for neuroscience to
find zombies? We have some idea what it would mean to find a soul: some
seemingly purposeful sequence of brain processes begin without any physical
On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
But is it an empirical question? What would it mean for neuroscience to
find zombies? We have some idea what it would mean to find a soul: some
seemingly purposeful sequence
2012/4/8 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
But is it an empirical question? What would it mean for neuroscience to
find zombies? We have some idea what it would mean to find a
On 4/8/2012 5:52 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2012/4/8 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net
On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
But
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:37 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
On 05.04.2012 01:59 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
Since there is no
On 4/7/2012 6:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:37 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
On 05.04.2012 01:59 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ruwrote:
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou
On 05 Apr 2012, at 22:53, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 05.04.2012 21:44 meekerdb said the following:
On 4/5/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
Display to whom? the homunculus?
No, he creates an interesting scheme to escape the homunculus:
p. 110. “(1) the unconscious brain constructs a
On Apr 5, 12:41 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
We do not know what kind of computing brain does. It well might be that
at the level of neuron nets it was simpler to create a conscious display
than to employ other means.
That assumes that such a means was a prori possible. Why
Bruno,
I believe that you are unfair to Jeffery Gray. As I have mentioned, his
conclusion was that the modern science (here as accepted by a majority
of scientists) cannot explain conscious phenomena. Hence, in a way he
was ready to reconsider the accepted scientific framework.
The
On 4/6/2012 9:26 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
Bruno,
I believe that you are unfair to Jeffery Gray. As I have mentioned, his conclusion was
that the modern science (here as accepted by a majority of scientists) cannot explain
conscious phenomena. Hence, in a way he was ready to reconsider the
Evgenii,
I believe that you are unfair to Jeffery Gray. As I have mentioned,
his conclusion was that the modern science (here as accepted by a
majority of scientists) cannot explain conscious phenomena. Hence,
in a way he was ready to reconsider the accepted scientific framework.
I can
On 05.04.2012 01:59 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
Since there is no evolutionary advantage to consciousness it must be a
side-effect of the sort of
On 05.04.2012 01:43 Craig Weinberg said the following:
On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
The term late error detection as such could be employed without
consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning
that I will try briefly describe below.
Jeffrey
On 4/4/2012 11:58 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
The term late error detection as such could be employed without consciousness indeed.
Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning that I will try briefly describe below.
Jeffrey Gray in his book speaks about conscious experience, that is, exactly
On 4/5/2012 9:41 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 05.04.2012 01:43 Craig Weinberg said the following:
On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
The term late error detection as such could be employed without
consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning
that
On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
(a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness
is just a side-effect of intelligent behaviour;
(b) It is possible to make a philosophical zombie but the mechanism
for intelligent behaviour that nature chanced
On 05.04.2012 20:07 meekerdb said the following:
On 4/4/2012 11:58 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
The term late error detection as such could be employed without
consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning
that I will try briefly describe below.
Jeffrey Gray in his book
On 05.04.2012 20:10 meekerdb said the following:
On 4/5/2012 9:41 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 05.04.2012 01:43 Craig Weinberg said the following:
On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
The term late error detection as such could be employed without
consciousness indeed.
On 05.04.2012 20:39 David Nyman said the following:
On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
(a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness
is just a side-effect of intelligent behaviour;
(b) It is possible to make a philosophical zombie but the
On 4/5/2012 11:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 05.04.2012 20:39 David Nyman said the following:
On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
(a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness
is just a side-effect of intelligent behaviour;
(b) It is possible
On 5 April 2012 19:56, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
Yet, this does not change his hypothesis about why consciousness display
could be advantageous for evolution. We do not know what it is, but if is
there, it certainly can help to organize servomechanisms in the body.
Sure, if it is
On 4/5/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
Display to whom? the homunculus?
No, he creates an interesting scheme to escape the homunculus:
p. 110. “(1) the unconscious brain constructs a display in a medium, that of conscious
perception, fundamentally different from its usual medium of
On 4/5/2012 12:39 PM, David Nyman wrote:
I confess this smells to me like the wrong sort of theory. On the
other hand, if comp is true the story can be somewhat more subtle.
Comp + consciousness (the internal view of arithmetical truth)
implies an infinity of possible histories, in which
On 05.04.2012 21:38 meekerdb said the following:
On 4/5/2012 11:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 05.04.2012 20:39 David Nyman said the following:
On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
(a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness
is just a
On 05.04.2012 21:39 David Nyman said the following:
On 5 April 2012 19:56, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
Yet, this does not change his hypothesis about why consciousness display
could be advantageous for evolution. We do not know what it is, but if is
there, it certainly can help to
On 5 April 2012 20:58, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
Comp + consciousness (the internal view of arithmetical truth)
implies an infinity of possible histories, in which natural selection,
of features advantageous to macroscopic entities inhabiting a
macroscopic environment, is a
On 05.04.2012 21:44 meekerdb said the following:
On 4/5/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
Display to whom? the homunculus?
No, he creates an interesting scheme to escape the homunculus:
p. 110. “(1) the unconscious brain constructs a display in a medium,
that of conscious perception,
On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 3, 3:56 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig
Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and
On Apr 4, 3:31 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:
It is not the fact that matter detects and responds to itself that is
in question, it is the presentation of an interior realism which
cannot be explained in a mechanistic context.
On 04 Apr 2012, at 19:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 4, 3:31 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:
It is not the fact that matter detects and responds to itself that
is
in question, it is the presentation of an interior realism
On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
The term late error detection as such could be employed without
consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning
that I will try briefly describe below.
Jeffrey Gray in his book speaks about conscious experience,
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
Since there is no evolutionary advantage to consciousness it must be a
side-effect of the sort of behaviour that conscious organisms display.
Otherwise, why did
On Apr 4, 3:01 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
On 04 Apr 2012, at 19:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 4, 3:31 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:
It is not the fact that matter detects and responds to itself that
is
in
On Apr 3, 3:20 am, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 2, 8:06 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com
wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular
On 03 Apr 2012, at 02:06, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg
whatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular
qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually
represent for us, so
On Apr 2, 11:29 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/2/2012 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same parts
of the brain
for cogitation as are used for perception. That would be the kind of
thing that evolution
would
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular
qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually
represent for us,
On 03.04.2012 05:29 meekerdb said the following:
On 4/2/2012 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 2, 9:02 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same
parts of the brain
for cogitation as are used for perception. That would be
On Apr 3, 3:56 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com
wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular
qualia are
Craig:
Please explain a little further what you mean by *accomplished through
presentation* and in
particular, what you mean by presentation.
Your point number 5 fits clearly within the purview of semiotics.
wrb
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote:
1.
Hi William,
On Apr 2, 1:02 pm, William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com
wrote:
Craig:
Please explain a little further what you mean by *accomplished through
presentation* and in
particular, what you mean by presentation.
What I mean by that is that to make something seem like something
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular
qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually
represent for us, so it seems impossible to justify qualia on a
functionalist
On 4/2/2012 5:06 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular
qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually
represent for us, so it seems
On Apr 2, 8:06 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote:
From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular
qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually
represent
On Apr 2, 9:02 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same parts of
the brain
for cogitation as are used for perception. That would be the kind of thing
that evolution
would do, jury rigged but efficient.
I like what I've
On 4/2/2012 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 2, 9:02 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote:
I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same parts of
the brain
for cogitation as are used for perception. That would be the kind of thing
that evolution
would do, jury
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