Re: subjective experience

> On 27 Jun 2020, at 19:34, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 6/27/2020 1:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Practically, we predict only number relation. Prediction is necessary, as I said, but a simplet theory with a greater range of explanation is always

Re: subjective experience

On 6/27/2020 1:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Practically, we predict only number relation. Prediction is necessary, as I said, but a simplet theory with a greater range of explanation is always better in the fundamental science, Then you should be happy with, "God did it." which explains

Re: subjective experience

> On 26 Jun 2020, at 21:37, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 6/25/2020 11:29 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 25 Jun 2020, at 20:02, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/25/2020 8:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> From your

Re: subjective experience

On 6/25/2020 11:29 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Jun 2020, at 20:02, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 6/25/2020 8:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: From your irreducible material universe in which you seem to believe? Where did I say "irreducible"? I'm not in the belief

Re: subjective experience

> On 26 Jun 2020, at 11:01, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 1:37:31 AM UTC-5 Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Jun 2020, at 00:32, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > > > > > There isn't much more that's been said about the (underdeterminative) > > nature of

Re: subjective experience

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 1:37:31 AM UTC-5 Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Jun 2020, at 00:32, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > > > > > There isn't much more that's been said about the (underdeterminative) > nature of theories beyond what Duhem, Quine said decades ago. > > Quine is a

Re: subjective experience

> On 26 Jun 2020, at 00:32, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > There isn't much more that's been said about the (underdeterminative) nature > of theories beyond what Duhem, Quine said decades ago. Quine is a materialist? He said this in the frame of Aristotle philosophy. He missed the fact that

Re: subjective experience

> On 25 Jun 2020, at 23:06, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 6/25/2020 1:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >>> Explanations" are a dime dozen. > > > > Prediction is the gold standard. >>> Brent >> Though "predictions are overvalued": >> >>

Re: subjective experience

> On 25 Jun 2020, at 20:02, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 6/25/2020 8:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: From your irreducible material universe in which you seem to believe? >>> >>> Where did I say "irreducible"? I'm not in the belief business. I'm in the >>>

Re: subjective experience

There isn't much more that's been said about the (underdeterminative) nature of theories beyond what Duhem, Quine said decades ago. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-underdetermination/ @philipthrift -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: subjective experience

On 6/25/2020 1:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: Explanations" are a dime dozen. > > > > Prediction is the gold standard. Brent Though "predictions are overvalued": http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/05/predictions-are-overrated.html (They do not determine theories.) But they determine

Re: subjective experience

> Explanations" are a dime dozen. > > > > Prediction is the gold standard. > Brent Though "predictions are overvalued": http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/05/predictions-are-overrated.html (They do not determine theories.) @philipthrift -- You received this message because you are

Re: subjective experience

On 6/25/2020 8:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: From your irreducible material universe in which you seem to believe? Where did I say "irreducible"?  I'm not in the belief business.  I'm in the finding out business. A scientist can only propose a theory, and means of verification, and a

Re: subjective experience

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 22:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/20/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:48, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/19/2019 12:33 AM,

Re: subjective experience

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 22:27, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/20/2019 3:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Why? You will push on a button. You assume mechanism, so you know you will >> not die, and you know that with mechanism, you cannot survive being in two >> cities

Re: subjective experience

> On 22 Jul 2019, at 13:45, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 7:28 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > On 22 Jul 2019, at 07:01, Bruce Kellett > wrote: >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:16 PM Bruno Marchal > >

Re: subjective experience

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 7:28 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 22 Jul 2019, at 07:01, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:16 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:47, Dan Sonik wrote: >> > >I think the main "leap of faith" that you make (and many others simply >> can't,

Re: subjective experience

> On 22 Jul 2019, at 07:01, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:16 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:47, Dan Sonik > wrote: >> >I think the main "leap of faith" that you make (and many others simply >>

Re: subjective experience

> On 22 Jul 2019, at 01:16, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/21/2019 4:06 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at

Re: subjective experience

> On 22 Jul 2019, at 01:06, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Re: subjective experience

On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 12:01:31 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:16 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > >> On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:47, Dan Sonik > >> wrote: >> > >I think the main "leap of faith" that you make (and many others simply >> can't, because it >appears absurd) is

Re: subjective experience

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:16 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:47, Dan Sonik wrote: > >I think the main "leap of faith" that you make (and many others simply > can't, because it >appears absurd) is somehow thinking that the completed > computations are already "out >there,” > > If

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 6:16:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/21/2019 4:06 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5,

Re: subjective experience

On 7/21/2019 4:06 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> I didn't say there was. I said *youse-self* sees

Re: subjective experience

On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I didn't say there was.  I said */youse-self/* sees Moscow and Washington.  "Youse-self" is second person /plural/.

Re: subjective experience

Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 20:18, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > > > On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > I didn't say there was. I said *youse-self* sees Moscow and Washington. >> "Youse-self" is second person *plural*. >> >> Brent >>

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > I didn't say there was. I said *youse-self* sees Moscow and Washington. >> "Youse-self" is second person *plural*. >> >> Brent >> > > Ok but no need of youse, the question is

Re: subjective experience

On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I didn't say there was.  I said */youse-self/* sees Moscow and Washington.  "Youse-self" is second person /plural/. Brent Ok but no need of youse, the question is clear without it, if you accept frequency interpretation of

Re: subjective experience

Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > > > On 7/20/2019 11:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:12, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > >> >> >>

Re: subjective experience

On 7/20/2019 11:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:12, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > a écrit : On 7/20/2019 10:59 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 02:34, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List

Re: subjective experience

Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:16, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : > > > Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:12, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > >> >> >> On 7/20/2019 10:59 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> >> Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 02:34, 'Brent Meeker' via

Re: subjective experience

Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:12, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > > > On 7/20/2019 10:59 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 02:34, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > >> >> >>

Re: subjective experience

On 7/20/2019 10:59 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 02:34, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > a écrit : On 7/20/2019 1:32 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le sam. 20 juil. 2019 à 22:27, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List

Re: subjective experience

On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 5:16:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:47, Dan Sonik > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:17:56 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> Hi Dan, >> >> It is OK to be critical. I always welcome this. >> > > Thank you. > > > >>

Re: subjective experience

Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 02:34, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > > > On 7/20/2019 1:32 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le sam. 20 juil. 2019 à 22:27, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > >> >> >>

Re: subjective experience

On 7/20/2019 1:32 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le sam. 20 juil. 2019 à 22:27, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > a écrit : On 7/20/2019 3:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Why? You will push on a button. You assume mechanism, so you know

Re: subjective experience

On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 5:16:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > There are no relevant counterfactuals here. Everything is simply factual. > > > Thinking of counterfactuals: In the Sorkin/Dowker quantum physics as a *stochastic calculus of histories*, histories are the

Re: subjective experience

Le sam. 20 juil. 2019 à 22:27, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > > > On 7/20/2019 3:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Why? You will push on a button. You assume mechanism, so you know you > > will not die, and you know that with mechanism, you cannot

Re: subjective experience

On 7/20/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:48, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 7/19/2019 12:33 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: "I’m happy to be described as a monist. There aren’t multiple different kinds of things;

Re: subjective experience

On 7/20/2019 3:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Why? You will push on a button. You assume mechanism, so you know you will not die, and you know that with mechanism, you cannot survive being in two cities and seeing simultaneously the two cities, so it is quite natural to ask yourself where you

Re: subjective experience

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 3:48:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/19/2019 12:33 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > "I’m happy to be described as a monist. There aren’t multiple different > kinds of things; *there is only the wave function of the universe*. As an > emergent approximation it’s

Re: subjective experience

> On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:48, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/19/2019 12:33 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> "I’m happy to be described as a monist. There aren’t multiple different >> kinds of things; there is only the wave function of the universe. As an >> emergent

Re: subjective experience

> On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:47, Dan Sonik wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:17:56 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Hi Dan, > > It is OK to be critical. I always welcome this. > > Thank you. > > > But you are a bit short of argument. You seem convince by John Clark’s posts. > At

Re: subjective experience

On 7/19/2019 2:02 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 3:48:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 7/19/2019 12:33 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: "I’m happy to be described as a monist. There aren’t multiple different kinds of things; *there is only the wave function of

Re: subjective experience

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 3:48:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/19/2019 12:33 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > "I’m happy to be described as a monist. There aren’t multiple different > kinds of things; *there is only the wave function of the universe*. As an > emergent approximation it’s

Re: subjective experience

On 7/19/2019 12:33 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: "I’m happy to be described as a monist. There aren’t multiple different kinds of things; *there is only the wave function of the universe*. As an emergent approximation it’s useful to characterize the wave function as describing /multiple worlds/."

Re: subjective experience

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:17:56 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > It is OK to be critical. I always welcome this. > Thank you. > But you are a bit short of argument. You seem convince by John Clark’s > posts. At least John Clark told us where in the reasoning he thinks

Re: subjective experience

Hi Dan, It is OK to be critical. I always welcome this. But you are a bit short of argument. You seem convince by John Clark’s posts. At least John Clark told us where in the reasoning he thinks there is a mistake, but has not yet been able to explain it, or convince anybody. So, if you

Re: subjective experience

> > On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 10:18:38 PM UTC-5, Dan Sonik wrote: >> >> Bravo PGC. Very Well Said. >> >> Delusions of reality as based in a purely mathematical scheme will never >> amount to a "theory of everything..." >> >> Just another quaint, historically bounded, and deeply

Re: subjective experience

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 10:18:38 PM UTC-5, Dan Sonik wrote: > > Bravo PGC. Very Well Said. > > Delusions of reality as based in a purely mathematical scheme will never > amount to a "theory of everything..." > > Just another quaint, historically bounded, and deeply ontologically >

Re: subjective experience

Bravo PGC. Very Well Said. Delusions of reality as based in a purely mathematical scheme will never amount to a "theory of everything..." Just another quaint, historically bounded, and deeply ontologically committed idea with absolutely no practical relevance, much like Thales' commitment

Re: subjective experience

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 9:58:31 AM UTC+2, telmo wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, at 00:37, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 16 Jul 2019, at 13:44, PGC wrote: > > On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >

Re: subjective experience

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, at 00:37, Bruce Kellett wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> On 16 Jul 2019, at 13:44, PGC wrote: >>> On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don’t understand well what you say. >>> >>> Nobody,

Re: subjective experience

Le mer. 17 juil. 2019 à 00:37, Bruce Kellett a écrit : > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 16 Jul 2019, at 13:44, PGC wrote: >> >> On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> >>> I don’t understand well what you say. >>> >> >> Nobody,

Re: subjective experience

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 16 Jul 2019, at 13:44, PGC wrote: > > On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> I don’t understand well what you say. >> > > Nobody, including yourself, understands what you say generally. > > > > Just

Re: subjective experience

> On 16 Jul 2019, at 13:44, PGC wrote: > > > > On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 14 Jul 2019, at 15:01, PGC > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 11:00:30 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 13 Jul 2019, at 12:31, PGC > wrote: >>>

Re: subjective experience

> On 15 Jul 2019, at 15:39, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 6:31:51 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 14 Jul 2019, at 11:53, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> If brains (or future biomachines) are standard Turing, then we can make a >> conscious robot out

Re: subjective experience

On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 14 Jul 2019, at 15:01, PGC > wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 11:00:30 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 13 Jul 2019, at 12:31, PGC wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:41:00 AM UTC+2,

Re: subjective experience

On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 6:31:51 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 14 Jul 2019, at 11:53, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > If brains (or future biomachines) are standard Turing, then we can make a > conscious robot out of standard processors. > > > OK. > > The expression is a bit fuzzy.

Re: subjective experience

> On 15 Jul 2019, at 00:24, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 11:01 PM PGC > wrote: > On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 11:00:30 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 13 Jul 2019, at 12:31, PGC > wrote: >> On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:41:00 AM UTC+2,

Re: subjective experience

> On 14 Jul 2019, at 15:01, PGC wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 11:00:30 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 13 Jul 2019, at 12:31, PGC > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:41:00 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> I need a formula, and means to test

Re: subjective experience

> On 14 Jul 2019, at 14:45, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/13/2019 1:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> And it doesn't comport with your definition. >> I am intersted in knowing why you say that. Which part doesn’t comport ? > > For one thing, it isn't consciousness

Re: subjective experience

> On 14 Jul 2019, at 11:53, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 4:08:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 13 Jul 2019, at 23:40, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:41:00 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 12 Jul 2019, at

Re: subjective experience

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 11:01 PM PGC wrote: > On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 11:00:30 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> On 13 Jul 2019, at 12:31, PGC wrote: >> >> On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:41:00 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I need a formula, and means to test it

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 11:00:30 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Jul 2019, at 12:31, PGC > wrote: > > > > On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:41:00 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> >> I need a formula, and means to test it experimentally. Just to make some >> sense, and

Re: subjective experience

On 7/13/2019 1:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And it doesn't comport with your definition. I am intersted in knowing why you say that. Which part doesn’t comport ? For one thing, it isn't consciousness OF anything.   Conscious thoughts are about things, they refer. Brent -- You received

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 4:08:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Jul 2019, at 23:40, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:41:00 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 20:38, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, July 12, 2019

Re: subjective experience

> On 13 Jul 2019, at 23:40, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:41:00 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 20:38, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:52:30 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 12 Jul 2019, at

Re: subjective experience

> On 13 Jul 2019, at 12:31, PGC wrote: > > > > On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:41:00 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > I need a formula, and means to test it experimentally. Just to make some > sense, and compare with the consequence of Mechanism. > > If you disagree with the proof of

Re: subjective experience

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:41:00 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 12 Jul 2019, at 20:38, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:52:30 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 12:24, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, July 12, 2019

Re: subjective experience

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:41:00 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > I need a formula, and means to test it experimentally. Just to make some > sense, and compare with the consequence of Mechanism. > > If you disagree with the proof of the incompatibility of Mechanism and > (weak)

Re: subjective experience

> On 12 Jul 2019, at 20:38, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:52:30 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 12:24, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 4:56:31 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> I have been

Re: subjective experience

> On 12 Jul 2019, at 21:18, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/12/2019 2:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> I have only precise definition and theorem. You can always cricicze >> definitions, but then provide better one please. > > When you are defining something

Re: subjective experience

> On 12 Jul 2019, at 21:10, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/12/2019 2:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 11 Jul 2019, at 19:48, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/11/2019 3:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 10 Jul 2019, at

Re: subjective experience

On 7/12/2019 2:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have only precise definition and theorem. You can always cricicze definitions, but then provide better one please. When you are defining something that everyone supposedly knows, then the definition is ostensive.  A descriptive definition must

Re: subjective experience

On 7/12/2019 2:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Jul 2019, at 19:48, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 7/11/2019 3:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jul 2019, at 23:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 7/10/2019 7:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The machine

Re: subjective experience

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:52:30 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 12 Jul 2019, at 12:24, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 4:56:31 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> >> I have been mocked for twenty years on this, by dogmatic materialist >> believers,

Re: subjective experience

ERRATA: > On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:56, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 03:12, Bruce Kellett > > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:09 PM Bruno Marchal > > wrote: >> On 11 Jul 2019, at 14:23, Bruce Kellett >

Re: subjective experience

> On 12 Jul 2019, at 12:24, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 4:56:31 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > I have been mocked for twenty years on this, by dogmatic materialist > believers, until I proved the point (which has transformed the funny mockery > in

Re: subjective experience

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 4:56:31 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > I have been mocked for twenty years on this, by dogmatic materialist > believers, until I proved the point (which has transformed the funny > mockery in violent hate and defamation). > > Everyone would benefit of making

Re: subjective experience

> On 12 Jul 2019, at 03:12, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:09 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > On 11 Jul 2019, at 14:23, Bruce Kellett > wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Bruno Marchal >

Re: subjective experience

> On 11 Jul 2019, at 19:48, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/11/2019 3:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 10 Jul 2019, at 23:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/10/2019 7:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The machine define by

Re: subjective experience

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:09 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 11 Jul 2019, at 14:23, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> > On 10 Jul 2019, at 23:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < >> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >>

Re: subjective experience

On 7/11/2019 3:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jul 2019, at 23:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 7/10/2019 7:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The machine define by the two following equations Kxy = x and Sxyz = xz(yz) + S ≠ K, and with the combinator induction axiom (that I

Re: subjective experience

> On 11 Jul 2019, at 14:23, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > On 10 Jul 2019, at 23:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 7/10/2019

Re: subjective experience

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 10 Jul 2019, at 23:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 7/10/2019 7:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> The machine define by the two following equations Kxy = x and Sxyz

Re: subjective experience

> On 10 Jul 2019, at 23:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/10/2019 7:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> The machine define by the two following equations Kxy = x and Sxyz = xz(yz) >> + S ≠ K, and with the combinator induction axiom (that I gave some posts >> ago) is

Re: subjective experience

On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 3:24:34 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/10/2019 2:50 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > If no computer scientist will ever make a conscious machine out of > > whatever size network of ARM (or even QuARM) processors running its > > native machine code, then that's

Re: subjective experience

On 7/10/2019 7:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The machine define by the two following equations Kxy = x and Sxyz = xz(yz) + S ≠ K, and with the combinator induction axiom (that I gave some posts ago) is already as much conscious than you and me. Which in it self is a reductio of your theory.

Re: subjective experience

On 7/10/2019 2:50 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: If no computer scientist will ever make a conscious machine out of whatever size network of ARM (or even QuARM) processors running its native machine code, then that's a clue. But how can that be a clue?  If consciousness is defined as an

Re: subjective experience

> On 10 Jul 2019, at 11:50, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 4:31:23 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 21:50, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 at 6:52:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 8 Jul 2019, at

Re: subjective experience

On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 4:31:23 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 9 Jul 2019, at 21:50, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 at 6:52:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 8 Jul 2019, at 12:42, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, July 8, 2019 at

Re: subjective experience

> On 9 Jul 2019, at 21:50, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 at 6:52:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 8 Jul 2019, at 12:42, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 4:58:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 6 Jul 2019, at

Re: subjective experience

On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 at 6:52:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 8 Jul 2019, at 12:42, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 4:58:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 6 Jul 2019, at 13:32, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at

Re: subjective experience

> On 8 Jul 2019, at 12:42, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 4:58:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 6 Jul 2019, at 13:32, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 1:42:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 6 Jul 2019, at

Re: subjective experience

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 4:58:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 6 Jul 2019, at 13:32, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 1:42:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 6 Jul 2019, at 05:57, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> > Whatever logic it is, its

Re: subjective experience

> On 6 Jul 2019, at 13:32, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 1:42:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 6 Jul 2019, at 05:57, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 9:27:11 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 4 Jul 2019, at

Re: subjective experience

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 1:42:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 6 Jul 2019, at 05:57, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 9:27:11 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 4 Jul 2019, at 10:57, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at

Re: subjective experience

> On 6 Jul 2019, at 05:57, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 9:27:11 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 4 Jul 2019, at 10:57, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 3:31:27 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> > On 3 Jul 2019, at 19:54,

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