On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 7:09 AM, Gerard Meijssen
wrote:
> On 8 March 2017 at 06:45, MZMcBride wrote:
>> Risker wrote:
>> >I am very curious. Why is it that there seems to be so much resistance to
>> >this draft code of conduct?
>>
>> You may find
Hoi,
With all respect, the summary is not a summary. Wading through long, long
more of the same is not helpful. We have had more of the same here on this
list.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 8 March 2017 at 06:45, MZMcBride wrote:
> Risker wrote:
> >I am very curious. Why is it
Risker wrote:
>I am very curious. Why is it that there seems to be so much resistance to
>this draft code of conduct?
You may find these links helpful:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-February/086595.html
Commenting generally (i.e. not specifically to Risker), this topic has been
giving me enough of a headache that I would like to see some kind of path
forward, preferably one with the most harmony. I suggest that what should
happen based on my admittedly not-detailed look at the draft's history and
I am very curious. Why is it that there seems to be so much resistance to
this draft code of conduct? This document closely parallels both the WMF
friendly space policy and similar policies in the broader tech/developer
community. It is also not that far from policies that exist on many
Wikimedia
On 02/26/2017 01:23 PM, Adrian Raddatz wrote:
The benefit to individual admins (and whatever the equivalent
is on phab) making decisions about blocks is that you know who did it and
how to appeal it.
There is no equivalent on Phabricator. That just had enforcement by
Developer Relations,
On 02/25/2017 02:15 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
The "no conduct policy for technical spaces" argument was debunked here:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-November/085573.html
This is false. None of the three policies you cited are a code of
conduct for technical spaces that
So is there a Community RFC or not? If so, where?
"Rogol"
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wrote:
> As I'm looking at that talk page, I see a situation which looks like no one
> will "win", which is the opposite of how I would like discussions about
> policy to go
As I'm looking at that talk page, I see a situation which looks like no one
will "win", which is the opposite of how I would like discussions about
policy to go in the ideal world.
Trying to salvage that situation is more than I can take on at this time.
My hunch is that if the RfC is approved,
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:
> Apart from that, i see a big COI - the staffer in question is voting at
> the voting sections, striking out votes, defending the code of conduct and
> the he is marking a section as "consensus". Imho the
imedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> im Auftrag von Rogol
Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 27. Februar 2017 08:32
An: Wikimedia Mailing List
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces
Yes. See
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Code_of
I would like to also point out a central notice banner was displayed on
Mediawiki.org to logged in users.
Seddon
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 2:28 AM, Gergő Tisza wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Adrian Raddatz
> wrote:
>
> > A lack of other
On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Adrian Raddatz wrote:
> A lack of other community members participation is perhaps half on a lack
> of advertising, and half on a lack of interest.
>
The drafting process was advertised to the point of obnoxiousness. I count
30 announcements
The idea was floated that since discussion has taken place on individual
sections, discussion was not needed for the final document. I did not see
any indication that this was the final decision on the matter. Though
clarification would be quite appreciated.
Todd
On Feb 26, 2017 5:12 PM, "Pine
>now reneged on previous agreements to hold a final vote
Has that actually happened? I'm hoping that no statement like "the total
document isn't subject to an RfC" was actually made. That would add
needless disagreement to a process that is challenging enough even in the
best of circumstances,
On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Tim Landscheidt
wrote:
> Leila Zia wrote:
>
> > […]
>
> > On a separate note to those of you who contribute to technical spaces and
> > are not happy about how some aspects have gone:
>
> > Matthew and a few other
Perhaps this need for use cases was addressed in the "report" which the
staff commissioned from consultants over a year ago but which was never
shared with the community at large – assuming that it was ever produced.
"Rogol"
On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Isarra Yos
On 26/02/17 18:21, MZMcBride wrote:
Then you and others should have no problem providing specific examples.
I'd like to see links to Gerrit changesets and Phabricator tasks where
this new policy and its committee would help. If you want to make claims
of serious unacknowledged problems,
David Gerard wrote:
>> Eh, they do and that is one of the reasons to oppose the
>> Code of Conduct. Its draft implicitly alleges that the
>> technical spaces currently are a cesspit that is in urgent
>> need of someone with a rake while protecting actual offend-
>> ers by
On 26 February 2017 at 18:12, Pax Ahimsa Gethen
wrote:
> Thank you for sharing that Rachel Nabors post, David; bookmarked. I think
> some on this list are missing the point that codes of conduct are necessary
> to help provide a welcoming and safer environment for
In terms of substantive concerns, the ArbCom model is what most non-staff
commenters seem to be caught up on. I'm personally concerned with any
creation of a dispute resolution "class" of editor, since I feel that the
community does a terrible job of mob resolution at places like ANI on
enwiki, or
David Gerard wrote:
>This is a pretty reasonable presumption regarding technical spaces: if
>you *don't* have a code of conduct, it's a reasonable conclusion from
>outside that there will be serious unacknowledged problems.
Then you and others should have no problem providing specific examples.
Thank you for sharing that Rachel Nabors post, David; bookmarked. I
think some on this list are missing the point that codes of conduct are
necessary to help provide a welcoming and safer environment for
marginalized people, including the neuroatypical that Tim refers to
(somewhat
I don't think the WMF is "trying to exempt itself from its own creation",
it is simpy giving its own staff a privileged position within it. Anyone
who makes a complaint against a member of staff will have the privacy of
their complaint breached by having details sent to the WMF with its
millions
On 26 February 2017 at 17:49, Tim Landscheidt wrote:
> Eh, they do and that is one of the reasons to oppose the
> Code of Conduct. Its draft implicitly alleges that the
> technical spaces currently are a cesspit that is in urgent
> need of someone with a rake while
Robert Fernandez wrote:
>>Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
>>spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
>>exercise power over others
> If the organizers of this proposal responded in kind with even a fraction
> of the bad
Tim Landscheidt wrote:
>This is a circular and illogical argument. Just because
>someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
>not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
>And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
>ple to keep pushing the cart to
I think methodological objections shouldn't prevail over substantial
objections.
I can agree most of consensus in CoC draft came from WMF
staffers/contractors, but:
*no one was prevented from weighing-in
*lists were filled with invitations to weigh-in
*I think most of us didn't comment just
>Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
>spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
>exercise power over others
If the organizers of this proposal responded in kind with even a fraction
of the bad faith accusations that have been leveled at them, the howls
Leila Zia wrote:
> […]
> On a separate note to those of you who contribute to technical spaces and
> are not happy about how some aspects have gone:
> Matthew and a few other people have been trying /really hard/ to make
> Wikimedia's technical spaces better. You know that
Hi MZMcBride,
On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 11:15 AM, MZMcBride wrote:
>
>
> Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> >English Wikipedia policy is clear
> >(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Meatpuppetry):
> >"In votes or vote-like discussions, new users may be disregarded or
Pine W wrote:
>When I last spent some time looking at the proposal, I too felt that the
>contributions indicated that the policy had far too little community
>influence. *However*, if you'll entertain a hypothetical with me for a
>moment, let's suppose that the status quo continues and there is
> * The people in the WMF and the Affiliates are /part of/ of the
communities.
> * Even the people without extensive years of volunteering, or those who
> only started volunteering at the same time as they became professionally
> involved, are part of the communities.
> * It is illogical for us to
WMF staff are certainly contributors within the technical spaces. There's
no reason why they shouldn't be able to participate in the COC formation
process (which I have unrelated concerns with...)
A lack of other community members participation is perhaps half on a lack
of advertising, and half
* The people in the WMF and the Affiliates are /part of/ of the communities.
* Even the people without extensive years of volunteering, or those who
only started volunteering at the same time as they became professionally
involved, are part of the communities.
* It is illogical for us to tell the
Let me rephrase and elaborate on that point. Phabricator and MediaWiki
aren't the WMF wiki. I think that WMF employees' proposals, comments,
questions, and suggestions can be welcome for TCoC drafting. However, in
terms of process leadership and in terms of proportion of input, I would
like to see
On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Pine W wrote:
>
> A point I should make is that I think that Matthew and others made some
> good-faith efforts with the current draft. I would have proposed far less
> WMF involvement with the draft
One thing I just don't understand here,
I think we definitely should think about next steps if the draft fails to
gain consensus. (And, for that matter, if it does get consensus, there will
be a lot of followup work in that case too.)
But if it fails, one of the most important questions will be "Why did
people object to this and how
Well, WMF will have to deal with this policy too. (:
I'm cautious about using a plurality of comments on this list as a proxy
for an RfC, but if I was WMF and I was looking at the comments on this
thread, I would be giving a lot of thought to fallbacks in case the RfC
either fails to achieve
Pine
When I last spent some time looking at the proposal, I too felt that the
> contributions indicated that the policy had far too little community
> influence. *However*, if you'll entertain a hypothetical with me for a
> moment, let's suppose that the status quo continues and there is
>
Hi Rogol,
When I last spent some time looking at the proposal, I too felt that the
contributions indicated that the policy had far too little community
influence. *However*, if you'll entertain a hypothetical with me for a
moment, let's suppose that the status quo continues and there is
On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:46 AM, Matthew Flaschen
wrote:
> However, both volunteers and staff participants have joined the CoC
> process.
Matthew is too modest – the discussions has been managed by staff since
late 2015, almost all of the contributions to the
On 02/21/2017 06:24 PM, Todd Allen wrote:
No. The community I am referring to is all WMF project participants who
might be interested in presenting their opinion on the subject, regardless
of whether or not they currently participate in any given specific area.
That is always the case.
No, it
On 02/21/2017 05:42 PM, Erik Bernhardson wrote:
It's not particularly clear hear, which community? The developers of
mediawiki-core? extension developers? people who attend hackathons and
such? It seems all of these groups have been bombarded with calls to
participate in the process over the
On 02/21/2017 05:36 PM, Lane Rasberry wrote:
I would like for whatever is adopted to match other similar proposals. So
far as I know, the technical space proposal is not compared with the
"online" proposal or the "events" proposal.
Although those are training modules and the Code of Conduct
No. The community I am referring to is all WMF project participants who
might be interested in presenting their opinion on the subject, regardless
of whether or not they currently participate in any given specific area.
That is always the case.
Todd
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Erik
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Todd Allen wrote:
> Actually, I had no idea it was going on until very recently. It seems the
> initial communications were pretty much restricted to those already
> involved in technical areas or mailing lists.
>
> "The community", when
Actually, I had no idea it was going on until very recently. It seems the
initial communications were pretty much restricted to those already
involved in technical areas or mailing lists.
"The community", when we're talking about something that will affect
everyone, means, well, everyone who
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors
wrote:
> This code has been under discussion at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft since the summer
> of 2015, and is finally nearing completion. The original consensus in 2015
> had been that the
Hello,
As of January the WMF has presented these also -
Dealing with online harassment
<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Training_modules/Online_harassment/First_draft
>
Keeping events safe
<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Training_modules/Keeping_events_safe/First_draft
>
I would like for
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