Re: [Zen] Re: Detach from form
Hi Al, When we are in sync with the universal life force and wisdom, we are one with the One. We become the One. We would be able to flow in the Big River without hinder naturally course. Determination, desire, ambition are human framework, which is but a tiny framework of the universal framework. Chan is to be with the whole and NOT be just partial. In order to reach that stage, we begin by empty the mind and let go of the ego and most importantly cultivate our Chi. Without the Chi, there is no life force. Without life force, or just sit, meditation becomes just a mental balancing act, we called it Withered Chan. Meditate and don't think. JMJM Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: donald hwong Contentment is not satisfaction and not joy. Contentment is a state of want-nothing. if we could put our best foot forward to let go our reaction to the effects of all existing forms, not be affected by it, just accept as is, we end our suffering. If we want nothing, then why will we want to put our best foot forward? I think if Buddhism had become the predominant religion of the world, we would all be living in huts and caves right now. That might not be a bad thing, but to some degree buddhism is demotivating and defuses desire, ambition, determination, perseverence, and many other qualities that are essential for success in society. Is Buddhism for people who are vegetables, or is it just a tool to reduce stress? - Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
Re: [Zen] Re: Detach from form
Hi Frazier, I am not sure you are making a statement or a question. Allow me to respond as follows. It takes awareness of our five skadha to be detached from all forms. This awareness if a state of calmness without any effort. Contentment is not satisfaction and not joy. Contentment is a state of want-nothing. No different than the state of calmness and awareness. There is no conflicting forces. Because there is no force in being calm and aware. It is the state of mid-way. Or Ding in Chinese. Only then we could be in sync with the universal wisdom and inline with all the future causes. JMJM Frazier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: donald hwong if we could put our best foot forward to let go our reaction to the effects of all existing forms, not be affected by it, just accept as is, we end our suffering. Putting our best foot forward (effort), and contentment are almost contrary motivations. It is difficult to be content and yet to care and to try? - Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
Re: [Zen] Stimulation
Hi Bill, Bored? How is Thailand? I will be flying to Taiwan and China and Hong Kong in three weeks... Toward the end of Buddha's life, he transmitted heart to heart the life force and wisdom without words or formalities to Kasyapa. BodhiDharma brought that to China and slowly evolved with other Chinese culture into Chan, a Chinese name. 700 years later Chan was brought to Japan. The Japanese pronounced the same Chinese character - Zen. Chan I know very well. Chan in my opinion is the essence of Buddha's teaching. There is no difference. Any difference is in our mind. Now you can slaughter me. Donald Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are the differences between 'zen' and 'buddhism'? - 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
Re: [Zen] Life is a Dream
Now, now, what if I answer this Spanish post with some Chinese ones Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Al: Thank you for your feedback. Please read my message to Bill and so I save myself of written again. With respect Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Bill Smart ¿Es este sueño el sueño del este persona solemente ? ¿Tu tienes un sueño y yo tiene otro ? ¿O es este sueño el sueño del todos gentes ? Y si claro, quien esta suenañdo ? Es este sueno el sueno de esta persona solamente? Tu tienes un sueno, y yo tengo otro? O es este sueno el sueno de todas las gentes? Y si claro, quien esta sonando? My keyboard is not set up to do the Spanish symbols, so you can update it if you wish. Al - Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail QA for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
[Zen] My Tradition
Hi Jennifer, You have asked where, what, how about Donald. Since Fudo Sensei posted that he is more Asian than others. The following is about me. I was born in Shanghai, raised in Taiwan, Catholic high schooled in Japan, EE at Berkeley in the 60s. with Buddhist Grandma, Protestan Father. I loved Nietsche, Watts, Krishnamurti, as well as being a choir conductor at church. Four different versions of Ave maria were hymmed constantly by me. A sort of realy mixed up, jammed together but happy go lucky fellow most of the time. Deep down, I know there is an answer for all my questions somewhere. There is got to be something more than just living happily. Then I encountered, Learn without words. Transmit without formality. These words made more sense to me than most of the philosophers, bibles, theories, religions, etc. These words sort of combined all of them together. It was from a Taiwanese School of Chan (pronounced Zen in Japan). I was then taught and practiced Sitting Zen (exact same Chinese characters as Zazen in Japanese). I practiced nothing but Sitting for three years in Los Angeles, taught by one of our Master's disciple, Jue Miao Young Lian(age 69). This Sitting of ours, is very demanding with detailed charts, procedures and energy flows. (Available on our website) In these years of half lotus, I witness changes in many practitioners, some physical, some mental, some spiritual. Being an engineering major, I tried hard to apply logic to explain everything that I have witnessed. But I was not successful. There were too many phenomenon just can not be explained by logic, science, words. In general, those who do practice dilligently do become happier, healthier and easier to be with, including myself. It took me four years, to have my internal Chi flowing to all my chakras and channels without obstruction. Then the concept of Purity, Wisdom, Consummation and Enlightenment was taught to me. These are our guidelines to our own enlightenment. I guess I was considered ready to begin the practice of fulfillment, consummation and carrying the karma of others. For the first fifteen years, our Master taught only Sitting Zen and these four words. Without any sutras, because without having a somewhat clean body and mind to receive, words can be confusing, interpretive and even self-serving. Words and concepts are dangerous and do create karma. Even after I was ordained to be a teacher, I am still reminded to beware of the Eight Winds. The bigger the Buddha, the bigger the Devil. As you can perceive by now, our school is very rigid and structured. Everything is well defined. Yet to understand, to witness and to absorb the Dharma requires effort, dedication, fortitude, etc. (Six Acts of Perfection) In our school, we talk less and Sit More. You may probably notice that I often say, Practice and you shall witness. It also means, don't think, don't analyze, don't argue, just experience through your spirit(or chi). We are each Buddha within. Each school is different. Karma and Cause Effect (not words, but witness) placed each of us at different schools. These are our journey and our challenge. As long as we remain an open heart, we shall be able to live through every word in Diamond Sutra. Diamond Sutra like Heart Sutra are not just guidelines to be studied, chanted or analyzed, they are also our experiences. Chan is well defined in our school. It is the life force and wisdom of the universe. It is to be connected to and synchronized with. We all can. Just have to practice. With Best Intentions To Everyone, _/\_ Jue Miao Jing Ming (My Dharma Name) - Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by Green Rating at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
RE: [Zen] Solemn friends - numbness
Hi Allen, I recall that you have practiced martial arts before. If so, try to focus your Chi on the areas that are numb or in pain. You shall recover sooner from their blockage. In the Chan sense, when you focus on the Chi, you are in essence by-passing your ego, you shall also feel less discomfort. After you mastered all Ten Dharma Wheels and Three Chi Channels, none of this will occur. _/\_ Donald Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the encouragment Bill. I have a strong tendency to be too hard on myself and I end up discouraging myself. I will go easier. Thanks alot. Peace, Allen Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Allen, It sounds like you did very well. Your body and your mind are not separate. Just as you sit to quiet-down your mind, you also sit to relax your body; both are one. As you continue sitting these things will happen naturally and will not need to be forced. However, this is not medieval Japan with its macho culture. That culture has nothing to do with zen, or at least is not the only, or even the most effective way to express zen in your life. My advice is to be easy on yourself. A little discomfort is okay. New things are usually uncomfortable at first for both your mind and your body, but pain is unnecessary. Pain is your body telling you something is wrong. Listen to your body and honor its warnings. Be especially careful of your legs and back. When you start lifting weights you can overdo it and pull a muscle or tendon. If you do you cannot continue lifting weights until your body repairs itself. You should also start sitting gently. If your leg falls asleep, stretch it out. Next session reverse your legs instead of right over left try left over right. Sit on a sitting stool or even a chair if necessary. Above all be careful of your knees, especially if youre trying to sit in full or even half lotus. Go slow. Youve got no where to go anyway. All you need to do is to realize youre already there. Bill! Allen wrote: I attended my first Zen sitting this Sunday in Charlotte, NC. I could not keep concentration, my right leg fell completely asleep, my arms and back started to give me a fit and my butt ended up killing me. I could not remember when to gasho or how to effectivly do Kinhin. However, amidst all of that I had a wonderful time. The people were great and nice. We had a very lovely dharma talk. And what is more: when I was most uncomfortable in my sitting I found the strength to continue, even though it was so distracting. I am a real quitter, but the atmosphere and the dedication of the people kept me going. It has truly strengthened me in my endeavor to realize true mind. I look forward to next Sunday's sitting. - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. - Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
Re: [Zen] Soto - not soho
Just to clarify After the Sixth Patriarch in China, Five Schools evolved, Ling-ji(RinZai in Japanese), Chao-Dong(Soto in Japanese), Fa-Yen, Wei-Yang, Yung-Men. The last three disappeared through out the years. Only Rinzai and Soto remained in China. RinZai and Soto went to Japan through the 14th patriarch. Due to cultural differences and time, the teaching and practices are not exactly identical. The Japanese Soto came to the US first in 1898, then flourished in the 60's. Most of the western Zen are of Japanese Soto tradition, which, based my personal experience so far, without being disrespectful, lost some of the practices, or in a way streamlined, comparing to my Chinese RinZai background. Even in China, each Master teaches different practices. It is due to our own karma that we result in meeting different Masters and walking on different path. That was a short intro. Donald Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Allen: It is very good for this group to come out with someone who does not pretend something that is not. And as for me and the short poem...Do not worry too much. It was something spontaneous and whatever judgement I did not take badly. It was actually quite good the way Bill carried out. However, I do agree with you that this Soho tradition members do take buddhism to seriously. Most of the westerners do. But do not think for a second that that is normal. I have been a student from Thich Nhat Hanh for various years and I can assure you that we do have a lot of laugh. I do not know this Soho tradition but so far my personal experience in this post an mostly in a different one always from this soho tradition, it has been that they have a lot of to catch up from Thich Nhat Hanh students. No disrespect but that is how it feels so far. A bow from Mayka Mayka's statements though perceived ungrounded by some, where real to her and based on her feelings. Which should not just be blown off or aplogized for as unfounded. Maybe her expectations were too high, or maybe those in the forest can not see the path for the trees. Perhaps balance is still forthcoming in the Tao of this board. This has just been my unenlighten observing opinion of my observations. peace Z --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Rogers genesis6_8@ wrote: Alright, I attended my first Zen sitting this Sunday in Charlotte, NC. I could not keep concentration, my right leg fell completely asleep, my arms and back started to give me a fit and my butt ended up killing me. I could not remember when to gasho or how to effectivly do Kinhin. However, amidst all of that I had a wonderful time. The people were great and nice. We had a very lovely dharma talk. And what is more: when I was most uncomfortable in my sitting I found the strength to continue, even though it was so distracting. I am a real quitter, but the atmosphere and the dedication of the people kept me going. It has truly strengthened me in my endeavor to realize true mind. I look forward to next Sunday's sitting. May we all be well, and may we all be happy, Allen Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: Friends you seems so solemn and strict in your all practice that you have nothing to share!. Love from Mayka - Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. - Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Re: [Zen] Greetings
*bow* to you from another Shao Lin Chan practitioner. As you know, Communist dispersed all the monks in Shao Lin except the martial art practitioners. Fortunately, the Shao Lin Sitting Chan flurished in Taiwan. Several years ago, my Master from Taiwan was invited to teach in Shao Lin of Sitting Chan. On our website, you shall find 3 of the 36 Motion Zen taught by Bodhidharma. I wonder how similar are they to your practice. These practices are for the preparation of Sitting Chan only. Our Sitting Chan practice is here. Welcome and a bow, Donald _/\_ Zen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *bow* Greetings everyone. I am new here. Thank you to the mod. for allowing me to join. I was asked to do an intro. I am called Zen on-line ( and off at times ) for several reasons I will not bore you with. I come to the Philosophy of Zen via Shaolin Chan. I am a teacher in the Shaolin Arts. (Northern Shaolin Tai Chi Praying Mantis, Chi Gong) It is interesting there is a picture of Carridine in your files. My Sifu(teacher)is also his teacher in real life. His coach is a classmate of mine. It is amazing how many spirits his TV persona touched. I have been involved with the philosophical aspects of Zen for many years. More with the mind and spirit of zen than doing zazen. My Sifu said many times, one should not have to stare at a wall to have and carry peace within them It has been our way/goal to carry the mind state of Tai Chi whilst going about everyday life. Within Chi Gong/Shaolin study we have several positions of meditation. It is understandable how the Shaolin arts are physical zen or some call a moving meditation. One of our tai chi drills is very very close to Zen walking meditation. Mindfullness is a way of life. In fact, those of us you have been in the art for more than fighting understand is is a way of peace and a way of life. I have a classmate who refers to it as a way of love. Do to the respect and compassion for all things, we understand our connection with all things. I am a beginner, the more I know, the more I know I do not know, I am here seeking or more so following the Tao that has presented itself to me more so in the last few years. The more I am open to it the more I learn my path is long. This is one step of many on a perhaps endless trail. Therefore to me more about the journey than the destination. I have found that many of my students who attend my classes are there for more than a way of combat. If fact I insist on it. Those who are not are sent away. Yet I feel lacking my Tao or Dhrama teaching skills I guess you could say. I am here is learn, I am on the path to prepare myself for my teacher. I am here as a student to be a better teacher. I have been getting further instruction in Zazen at a couple of local centers, but not not feel as though they are home. More of rest stops or a side of the road shrine. I have a small blog is anyone is interested in my simple life and pursuit of wisdom and adventures in the Tao. http://zensekai.wordpress.com Also a sailing blog where at times I shared a bit my brief insight to the the Art of Zen/Tai Chi/Feng Shui/Kung Fu and sailing. http:zensekai.blogspot.com Thank you for allowing me this space and your time spent reading. I hope to contribute to this site in what way I can with my limited knowedge. I'm am sure to learn more than I give, forgive me if I am off times simply reading. My respects to all. I am honored to be here. *bow* Z - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
Re: [Zen] Negative Emotions and Negative Habit Energies
Dear Mayka, I sense from your first post, that you were looking for practices that helps and not theories or logic. I understand. As you know there are many school for Zen. I can only share with you what I was taught and experienced in along with many other practitioners. In our school, we don't embrace the fear, or the sadness, or any of the negative or even positive feelings. We always teach to do Belly Breathing, like an infant. To follow the breathing path with the key words of SSDL. Please see the file that I uploaded or the links Allen posted. As Allen said, be an observer instead of a participant. As Bill said, change the direction that you are thinking. They are all valid practices. With this physical breathing excercise with your belly, your mental activity could be supported with more efficiency. They key however is never to be anxious about what you want. Just follow the breathing path, relax and never chase after your thoughts. Let it come and let it go. Be an observer and never gets involved with any of it. Be cool. Be objective. Be a third party. Get it? It takes about one month doing it daily to notice some effect, then 3-6 month for the effect to stay. It is not hard, just try it. Don't worry about offending anyone. Most of the people in this group can understand and accept almost everything. Namaste, Donald Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear friends: Under Donald suggestion I would like to bring as a theme for practice and dharma discussion the theme about negative emotions. I like to talk about negative emotions because they harm me and they also harm life around me. It worries me very much to have negative emotions because when these negative emotions arise in me I become a rather destructive person and that scares me a lot. We all people are like flowers. Different countries have different flowers and paesage. I am very much a Mediterranean flower which means full of passion and warm. Mediterranean people we seem to feel life to its very extremes. This is not very buddhist but this is the sort of flower I am. The practice I have been trying to do for years is the practice of stopping. The practice of stopping means that first I acknowledge the negative emotion. Then I sit down, close my eyes and breathe with the awareness of the in and out breath. When I do this in full awarenes of the emotion, feeling it and embracing it, then and depending upon the power or strenght of the negative emotion in me; The five or ten inhalations and exhalations can be of excruciating mental pain. The emotion becames really bitter and the awarenes os the breath becames like the desifectant of the wound. But I hold and embrace its bitternes. I don't run away, I stay with it for as long as it needs. Then at certain point I know through the way the air circulates alone my spine and the up and down of my abdomen whether the knot of suffering has been disolved or not. But don't get me wrong I do fail very often of stopping because the habit energy is so strong in me that I can not make it alone!. Perhaps this is an important reason searching like mad practicioners in the net so that I can have the support of a sangha. Do you have yourselves negative emotions?. How do you deal with them?. Please share with the group your all experiences. Thank you Donald for your suggestions. A white flower to you all from: Mayka - Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
Re: [Zen] A white lotus flower to everyone
Interesting comment and observation. Can you share with us your practice/experience? Namaste, Donald Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone, My name is Maria Mayka and have been a practicioner of zen for several years. The only zen Master Teacher I have known and experienced through the years has been Vietnamese Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I have joined this group mostly to learn, practice and share life experiences within the practice with other zen practicioners. I am not as much interested about the intelectual and academic side of buddhism but the practice . So far in all zen groups founded in the net no real sharing experiences of the practice seemed to be there which is shows how little we all practice. A lotus to you all from Mayka - We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
Re: [Zen] Belly Breathing.
Allen, You are not doing it wrong, if you just attend to the chakra. Some people may become overly anxious, trying to concentrate on the chakra, and hoping with all their might, that something will happen with this concentration is the practice not recommended. Some other school call this kind of really focused concentration, a one-pointed focus, which tend to tense up our mind instead of relaxing it. In our practice, we are trying to relax our mind at the same time, cultivate our chi and fine-tune our body. All three in parallel at the same time. This way, we become spiritually relaxed, bodily healthy and mind-wise objective. Get it? Let me know if you have more questions or experience to share. Have a ball, Donald Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donald, Thank you. What is the difference bewteen focusing and observing? I really do like this practice, but I let my attention rest on this chakra and so I would like to know if I am doing it wrong. Peace, Allen donald hwong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Allen, Every question of yours gives me reasons to update the website. So please, do ask. Our site is in beta after all. 1. Belly breathing inhales into the belly. Not a point. Just the entire belly. 2. To focus on the navel chakra - begin by visualize the size of a soccer ball, then a mellon, then an apple. Just the general area. After dilligent practice it will condense itself into the size of a quarter. 3. At the beginning, one usually experiences heat in that general area. Because that area is impure, there is friction. Friction generates heat. Then you will sense some flow of energy. Then also could be vibrations or rotations. Just let it happen, observe and don't force it using the mind. The mind should be the observer, that is how we get to let go of things by observing our body as well as in sync with our life force. 4. Most importantly, it is not focus, but observe. Relax and obsere. We translated this website with a team of 6-8 people. Our wording is not consistent. We still have a lot of work to do. Donald Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peace Donald, I have two more questions. In step four of the belly breathing exercise it says that you focus your breathing on your belly chakra which is about two inches behind the belly button. My first question is do you breath the air in focusing the air into that point? In other words do you pull the air into that point? And my final question is: how do you know when you have found that chakra? Or how do you locate it? Sorry to bother you with so many questions, but I do not really have a teacher to help instruct me. Thank you so much for the information that you have given me. Blessings, Allen donald hwong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for the confusion, Allen. Our first step is Purification - purify the body and the mind. This is a formulated practice. After one masters the formulated practice, then one moves on to formula-less practices. In the formulated practice, the first step is belly breathing. After one can breathe with belly automatically (usually three months) then observe to clean up chakras. Let me know if you have more question. Namaste, Donald Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you very much Donald I appreciate this information. However, i did not totally understand what it is talking about with sitting meditation. It indicates that it is some form of Qi cultivation meditation, but its does not give any specifics on the practice. Also I thought that doing Qi meditations like that without the proper supervision could be dangerous. Would you please elaborate a little more on this practice so I can understand what it is talking about a little better. Again thank you very much. Peace, Allen donald hwong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Allen, Every school is different in practice, though short term effectiveness are different, similar benefits in the long run nevertheless. I can only speak of the practice that I am familiar with. Here is the link to my school for your reference. http://www.heartzen.org We are Chan from China, a rare one in the west, with both Motion Zen and Sitting Zen. Each of us are here due to our own cause and effect. So, if you decide to try this method and having questions, just let me know. This is me. Namaste, Donald - JMJM Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for your warm welcome Bill. Here is a question for the group. I have read some things on zazen from this forum and on the internet as well as in books. when I meditate I calm myself and allow myself to rest and relax. For a few moments I do nothing but sit and allow my thoughts and everything to arise without attaching myself to them. Then I let my attention rest on my breath's sensation at the tip
Re: [Zen] Belly Breathing.
Bill is not wrong. That is if after we cleansed our body and go on our own journey. Everything becomes a just scenary. dkotschessa is also not wrong. Space out could happen when the body is filled with karmic influences, we called dirty chi, or also called karmic influence or simply just impurity. Furthermore, for many of us, sitting is just so hard to do at the beginning. Our school emphasizes the returning to child-like innocence for both the body and the mind. At the end, it is actually the Chi which is the linking force -- this requires practice to witness. I don't know about Soto Zen or Korean Zen enough to compare, But many Chinese schools in Taiwan does not teach the original Taoiest pracitce of meditation to heal and strengthen the body. This kind of sitting practice they do, are really withered Zen, for it has no life force in it. Enlightenment is the synchronization of both the life force and wisdom. That was how I was taught and slowly witnessing bits and pieces of it, along with many practitioners in our school. that is a whole another subject by itself. For now, just by practicing belly breathing for 3 months and then chakra observation enables anyone to be healthier and calmer. If anyone is interested, I can list the benefit of observing each chakra, so that the readers can target their chakra based on their discomfort. Each of us has the capability to experience the Chi. When we are able to experience the Chi everywhere in our body, where we observe, then we don't get sick. I have not catch cold for many years.(I can prescribe a simple practice to demonstrate to each of your to experienced this chi yourself in three minutes.) Purify the body is the just first step. It is also the easiest and the most fun part of it. Namaste, Donald dkotschessa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Allen, Just sit. You don't have to worry about breathing or focus or the size, shape or position of your hara. All that will fall into place if you just sit. Not necessarily. If you do not develop a bit of focus in your practice first you will probably just be spacing out. Just spacing is not Just sitting. - TV dinner still cooling? Check out Tonight's Picks on Yahoo! TV.
RE: [Zen] New Member. New Thread on Meditation.
Allen, Every school is different in practice, though short term effectiveness are different, similar benefits in the long run nevertheless. I can only speak of the practice that I am familiar with. Here is the link to my school for your reference. http://www.heartzen.org We are Chan from China, a rare one in the west, with both Motion Zen and Sitting Zen. Each of us are here due to our own cause and effect. So, if you decide to try this method and having questions, just let me know. This is me. Namaste, Donald - JMJM Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for your warm welcome Bill. Here is a question for the group. I have read some things on zazen from this forum and on the internet as well as in books. when I meditate I calm myself and allow myself to rest and relax. For a few moments I do nothing but sit and allow my thoughts and everything to arise without attaching myself to them. Then I let my attention rest on my breath's sensation at the tip of the nose and I follow it in and out to try and become aware of it. I was wondering if this is an acceptable practice or if I needed to do something different? In some meditations it says that I need to rest my aatention in my hara or on some visualized point on my forhead as well as becoming aware of my breathing. This can all be very confusing. Would somone please help me by telling me an appropriate way to meditate, or just please give me some points on practice? It needs to be understood that where I live I have no Zen teacher but only myself. Peace, Allen Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Al, Welcome to the Zen Forum! As you can tell by scanning the postings over the past several weeks there has not been much action except the reason short exchanges prompted by Tony Wus posting. I hope youll feel free to engage whenever there are postings of interest, and I encourage you to initiate some threads of your own. Peace to All too, (except Al (the old one) who needs no peace - only wu) Bill! Al (the new one) wrote: Peace to All, Hello everyone. My name is Allen Rogers and I am new to this group and I look forward to many discussions with you. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [Zen] New Member. New Thread on Meditation.
Sorry for the confusion, Allen. Our first step is Purification - purify the body and the mind. This is a formulated practice. After one masters the formulated practice, then one moves on to formula-less practices. In the formulated practice, the first step is belly breathing. After one can breathe with belly automatically (usually three months) then observe to clean up chakras. Let me know if you have more question. Namaste, Donald Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you very much Donald I appreciate this information. However, i did not totally understand what it is talking about with sitting meditation. It indicates that it is some form of Qi cultivation meditation, but its does not give any specifics on the practice. Also I thought that doing Qi meditations like that without the proper supervision could be dangerous. Would you please elaborate a little more on this practice so I can understand what it is talking about a little better. Again thank you very much. Peace, Allen donald hwong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Allen, Every school is different in practice, though short term effectiveness are different, similar benefits in the long run nevertheless. I can only speak of the practice that I am familiar with. Here is the link to my school for your reference. http://www.heartzen.org We are Chan from China, a rare one in the west, with both Motion Zen and Sitting Zen. Each of us are here due to our own cause and effect. So, if you decide to try this method and having questions, just let me know. This is me. Namaste, Donald - JMJM Phillip Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for your warm welcome Bill. Here is a question for the group. I have read some things on zazen from this forum and on the internet as well as in books. when I meditate I calm myself and allow myself to rest and relax. For a few moments I do nothing but sit and allow my thoughts and everything to arise without attaching myself to them. Then I let my attention rest on my breath's sensation at the tip of the nose and I follow it in and out to try and become aware of it. I was wondering if this is an acceptable practice or if I needed to do something different? In some meditations it says that I need to rest my aatention in my hara or on some visualized point on my forhead as well as becoming aware of my breathing. This can all be very confusing. Would somone please help me by telling me an appropriate way to meditate, or just please give me some points on practice? It needs to be understood that where I live I have no Zen teacher but only myself. Peace, Allen Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Al, Welcome to the Zen Forum! As you can tell by scanning the postings over the past several weeks there has not been much action except the reason short exchanges prompted by Tony Wus posting. I hope youll feel free to engage whenever there are postings of interest, and I encourage you to initiate some threads of your own. Peace to All too, (except Al (the old one) who needs no peace - only wu) Bill! Al (the new one) wrote: Peace to All, Hello everyone. My name is Allen Rogers and I am new to this group and I look forward to many discussions with you. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. - Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers.
RE: [Zen] Satanic Zen Understanding?
Happy New Year To You Bill, Al and everyone, As per your call, following is a post related to understanding the nature of things. Too often, we made judgement based what we saw, encountered or heard. We did so because we received these physical messages through our senses. Too often, we thought these were the real life events, because we can see, hear, touch or feel them. These experience are in physical forms. Too often, in our haste to survive or to defend, we made judgment or react quickly based on what we see, hear or feel. If we delay our reaction a bit, take some time to explore, calm our emotions, put ourselves in stillness, we will soon discover, these are merely effects and not causes. Causes are usually invisible, untouchable, indescripable. In Buddhist terms, causes are actually the real forms, while the effects we experience physically are actually the no forms. The only way to truly be in sync with the causes, as well as causes of causes, is to have a mind not affected by effects. Practice meditation helps us to purify our thoughts, assumptions, judgments as well as enhance our inner spirit to be in touch with the invisible universal causes. In essence, we are then undertaking the karma of others and we are able to liberate our own suffering from all the effects, which were merely physical manifestation of the causes. This state of nothingness can be labeled as understanding, awakening, compassion, etc. Happy New Year _/\_ Donald Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony, I agree again, especially in a text-based e-forum its impossible not to say anything if you intend to participate. I agree with your comment about eliminating self (or at least recognizing it is illusory), but I dont agree about understanding what things are. I think the faith that understanding will help solve problems is a precept from modern empiricism and not a zen teaching. Understanding is vastly overrated and does not help much in these matters. Thats my experience anyway. Thanks for posting something appropriate for discussion. The Forum has been pretty quiet lately and youve helped perk it up a little. Now all we need is more participants. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, thanks to Als for his Wu-Wu zen comment. As usual Al makes dark and very subtle puns that Im not sure everyone fully appreciates. I do from my Dark Side, as Al has previously pointed out. Bill! Anthony Wu Wrote: Bill, You are talking about the essence of zen. But don't wash your mouth. In modern world, you cannot just talk about talking nothing. To eliminate self or to understand what things are help eliminate suffering. Thank you anyway. Regards, Anthony Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony Wu wrote: Yes, the Satan you worship is your self. The better way is to have others worship you. Either case, you cannot get rid of suffering, which is the objective of Zen. Anthony, I agree. I also believe the (God, Buddha, Krishna, Ganeesh, Empiricism, Fill-In-The Blank) you worship is your self also. And as you said in any case if you worship (or are even still are attached to) a self you will have suffering. I usually dont talk about zen having an objective, but I do believe alleviation of suffering is the objective of Buddhism. And as Ive said many times before talking about zen is virtually impossible, so using Buddhist terms is normally okay with me. When the self dissolves so does suffering. Happy New Year everyone! Bill! Send instant messages to your online friends http://asia.messenger.yahoo.com __ NOD32 1960 (20070106) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [Zen] Compassion
Good Day Bill, It is true that not much of the Chinese Chan had a chance to be introduced to the West, because Communist China destroy most of the resources since 1945. Taiwan was poor until about 20 years ago. Spiritual concerns grow mostly in the 80's in Taiwan. I signed up to around 5 discussion groups to learn about the Zen development in the US. As you described, mostly are schools from Korean and Japanese sect. In our school of Chinese Chan, we teach the act of Consummation, or resolution, or be one with others. Actually often after diligent practice, we'll know that we are connected anyway. Maybe this is the reason, I have not find too much reference to the term compassion, just like your friend. Donald Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kathy, I talked to a friend of mine about this and he gave me a little different perspective. He reminded me that zen in the West has been very heavily influenced by Japanese and Korean zen, both of which are expressions of very macho cultures. The West also is pretty macho so it was an easy transition. He indicated that Chinese zen was a little less macho, but nothing much exists at least nothing much has been translated about zen teachings with a more compassionate perspective. At least he didnt know of any. I hope someone does know of some sources, or perhaps has access to some non-English texts that talk more about the compassionate side of zen. Id be very interested to hear about them. Bill! (again) Bill previously wrote: Kathy, Okay now Im seriously going to try to address your question. Its an interesting question. I thought a lot about it and really cant come up with the type of philosophical or warm-n-fuzzy quote youre probably looking for. I know zen just doesnt put a lot of value on philosophy, and maybe not even warm-n-fuzzy. Almost any koan (zen teaching parable) than involves a mondo (question and response session) between teacher and student would demonstrate the compassion a zen teacher has for others. The most famous koan like that is Joshus koan Mu (The Gateless Gate, Case 1) in which Joshu answers one of his students off-topic questions with a nonsensical, seemingly inappropriate reply to encourage his student to look to himself for answers. Another is Guteis One Finger (The Gateless Gate, Case 3) in which Gutei permanently deprives his student of using an easy, non-original answer - forcing him to come up with one of his own. These, from my perspective, show true zen-inspired compassion. Bill! Kathy wrote: Does anyone have three or so short, but poignant quotes regarding compassion? Something from a great teacher or the sutras or like that. I read alot of Zen and Buddhist books, but can't remember quotes (I can't tell a joke, either; it could be five words long and I'd still screw up the punch line). I appreciate any help you can give - I do a couple Websites/online forums and am always trying to slip Zen thought (non-thought) in under the radar; without being tooo preachy. - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
RE: [Zen] Definition of Dignity and Morality - Buddhist Point of View
Giant hats-off to you, Bill. (Is this English correct?? Is it hat off or hats off? With or without dash? Honestly?) Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perplexed: Donald posted a very good reply to your questions from a Buddhist perspective, but since this is a zen forum, Ill have to reply also from a zen perspective: Dignity and Morality are functions of the ego, and as such fall into the category of samsara (illusions). They are not important concepts in zen. Earnest practice of zazen (zen mediation) will allow you to recognize the illusory nature of such things and to eventually deal with them accordingly. No intentions, no words, no actions, no life-style, no wall, no Buddha. Bill! (American, non-Teacher, very good English) Donald wrote: Since no one has responded to you, I shall give it a try, because I know how urgent some of these homework can be. I am a Chinese Zen teacher, you can sure quote me. Just my English is not very good. Dignity is to live in the equality of everyone. In the Buddhist sense, everyone of us has the same quality as Buddha. We therefore live with that equality in our intentions, words and actions. Morality is the result of this life style of mutual respect. Not rules written on the wall, but sense of respect from the bottom of our hearts. Donald perplexed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am looking for a teacher of Buddhism's definition of 1) Dignity and 2) Morality. This is for a project at Junior High School level and I also must request 3) permission to use your response in the report submitted. Thanks to any teacher willing to respond. - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[Zen] Dalai Lama At The U of Buffalo
In case you are interested. It is about two hours long. http://www.buffalo.edu/dalai_lama/video.html?6 I thank Billy, one of our practitioners at Univ of Buffalo, to forward this to my attention. Donald - Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo - Calculate new house payment
Re: [Zen] Re: Cause Effect
Tony,As always, they are one of the same. There is no duality. Detachment is to embrace life. This detachment is to detach from illusions and false forms, seeing the true nature of things in order to enjoy life.Sixth Patriarch said, "Nothing ever occurred. No need to bear the suffering."Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: donaldhwong Absolute dettachment is based on seeing the true nature of phenomenons and not attitude adjustment.Yet Zen is not about detachment but embracing life? Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] New Movie ......
One practitioner brought to my attention of this new movie ...http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/All Bin Laden needs to do, is to change the word, "Jesus" into "Mohammad", he could just use it as it.Interesting All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] True Monet
Hi, While in San Francisco last weekend, I visited Legend of Honor Museum and saw about 30-40 Monet's master pieces from 1876-1925. I came away with the following absorption. He painted with his eyes at the beginning -- as is with detail. Then he painted with his mind -- each one had a message. Then he painted with his spirit -- each one a precious moment without any detail. Those most precious and popular are the ones from the last stage of his "moments". They are so because they are the only ones from the true Monet. Do treasure our true selves in similar fashion. We are much more precious than we "think" we are. Be Joyous, JMJM Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
Re: [Zen] Re: Is religion the problem?
This is at least very true in Taiwan, where the religion of Buddhism is very influencial.kahtychen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and then there's: http://mambo.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=2903Itemid=247 -- ~say beautiful things to yourself~ Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] Is religion the problem?
Ladies and Gentlemen,Every since I supplement Bill's statement by saying something like, "all words and concepts are irrelevant to our practice, including this discussion group." This place became quiet. Hmmm, that is no fun. It is time to mess up minds again. Afterall, Confucious said, "Confucion" is the beginning of wisdom. ;-)Here is an article I read this week.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14638243/site/newsweek/Thoughts?Donald How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
Re: [Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
Hi John,Thank you for your detailed response.What is IRL?Donald - I rather be just Donald. PS. JMJM bears heavy responsibility for carrying the karma of other sentient beings. Besides, it is very difficult to maintain an "integrated session" between a teacher and students. Meaning, teacher is often tempted to make a statement. If not careful, this statement often results in the creation of dualistic division between him and his students.John Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donald H courteously replied: I am just sharing as is and not emphasizing nor categorizing. I understand. The key point is her "new" experience, while she is not expecting and not following any kind of methodology. This makes sense, and is a common side-effect of opening of the "dharma eye". I don't know the term "samsarah" please help. Sanskrit for delusion or illusion, I'm not sure which...But in Japanese Zen (and Korean) defeating it is the goal of meditation. When you defeat samsarah, you reach kensho or enlightenment...Or so I recall from "The Three Pillars of Zen"... As to the sensing and sharing the discomfort of others are experienced by most of our diligent practitioners. Yes...Also a sign of spiritual growth or some such... Based on her description, there seems no "frequent or constant glimpse". I believe that she was just overwhelmed. And she is much content in sitting long hours now. I'll bet. I sure was when this happened to me...No, not constant and not even frequent...In my case, just on occasion and quite "out of the blue". My point is all of the teachers I've encountered both IRL and in books or online urge students not to cling to these...The object is not to create more psychics, but to train the mind to see beyond what we normally see. Or so they say (I'm just paraphraising). :) Our "Dharma Wheel" is similar to the chakra, but may not be excactly the same. I suspect that we had strong Daoist influence. Like FengShui and Accupuncture. I have not had the chance to dig any further. But they work great for our practitioners and myself, especially practiced together with the 36 Motion Chan from BodhiDharma. I think I get it. I was thinking about "prayer wheels" like the Tibetans use. I suspect there are a lot of differences yet to be discovered. Chinese Chan were destroyed in Communist China and has a very short history in the US. Our school has not begin to teach in the US yet. So far most of our practitioners are from Taiwan and learned there. Ok, I understand...You are re-starting a tradition And yes, I am honored to be ordained by a Chinese LinChi Chan Master. I don't consider myself any different. I am learning like everyone else. With this Dharma honor, I actually have to practice and study a little harder. Meaning, my finger works only some of the time, if it does work at all. :-D I hear ya. I've been offline a lot practicing IRL...As to rebuilding the Lin Chi school, I'm sure there are works here in the US that would serve you, that you can't get on paper in China but could get via the net...And I'm sure there are more than enough Zen Rebels here in the West that can get them for you. :) I use my Dharma name of JMJM only for paying deep respect to Dharma I was taught and transmit the Dharma blessing to others. This is good... Let me know if you have any questions or comments. I'm sure that there are more than a few waiting to ask away. :) Namaste, Gassho, John - who has no dharma name... Ki is extending, John Davis "Let us have a Universal Mind that loves and protects all creation and helps all things grow and develop. To unify mind and body and become One with the Universe is the ultimate purpose of our study." -- Koichi Tohei Sensei "Masakatsu - Righteous victory, proper attitude Agatsu - Victory over self Katsuhayahi - Victory over speed of light, doing things so perfectly that time is no longer a factor" -- Akira Tohei Sensei, no relation to the above. This from an interview in www.aikidoonline.com/ . "Beware the Medical-Industrial Complex!" -- John Davis Visit my webstore: http://eismembers.com/member/DavisDryGoodsandEmporium/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Introduction
I love this forum. It is really fun. Every post is direct. There is no pretense. Yet every post is correct. And every post shows the notions of the mind, sentiment of the poster. So here I go. Jumping into the pool.If I was Rob, I would ask, what is "competent"? How would I know I would be save at my first dipping into the water? How would I know which book to start, so that I am on the right track?These answers should open the gates and really confuse Rob.DonaldBill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday, August 02, 2006 dkotschessa wrote: Have you thrown away all your books, Bill? No. I sit on them when I do zazen. What would you do if you wanted to learn to swim? Would you go down to the library and checkout a bunch of books on swimming? Or would you locate a swimming pool with a swimming teacher? Or maybe you'd just jump in the water and hope for the best. After a competent teacher has helped you through any fears you have of the water, helped you relax so you can discover you naturally float, and then taught you to dog-paddle a little - them maybe you could check out some books on doing the butterfly and the backstroke. dkotschessa? Don't we already have a dkotschessa? Guess not... ..Bill! ** Scanned by VisNetic MailScan for SMTP Servers. Visit http://www.deerfield.com/products/visnetic_mailscan. ** Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Ven Bhante Vimalaramsi: Without this jhana practice becomes very difficult
Wow, challenge!! I love it. Thank you Bill for giving my ego a chance to show you actually how dependent I am.Following are dangerous statements may offend many egos and thus causing them to unsubscribe from the list. Therefore, I hereby denounce the bearing of any responsibility from my ego writing.Being a Zen practitioner, the most valuable Act of Giving is the Gift of Dharma. Ferrying sentient beings to the Buddhaland offers long-term merit than the gift of clothing or food. (Diamond Sutra)Yet, during the short years that I was sharing, I have learned that I can not give a first grader a book for six grader. I often need to wait until he wakes up to realize the fact he is enslaved by his ego. Otherwise, he will not be commited to practice Zen. Without commitment, meditation is uninteresting and painful.Concepts such as Depedent Origination or Karma, are, in my dictionary, in the spiritual class. If you ask me whether I personally have witnessed their affect on me. The answer is definitely a loud yes. Not only on me but on many practitioners in our groups. If I share any of these experience with a newbie to Zen, I will be a nut-case in his "mind". He may instantly drop from the session, then I will be bearing the karma of loosing him. (see PS)Therefore, the first step is always using common terms to address the issues only relating to our body and mind. After one witnessed a few glimps of the Inner Self, then we may venture into the spiritual side of Zen, which could be well witnessed in our school through our method of practice.Because spirituality is in a domain by itself, it is quite impossible to describe, convey, or hand it to others without being in that domain, meaning a self-experience. Therefore it is more effective if these terms are used in conjunction with Dharma Terms as a tool to ferry, to make aware, to point the way.After Buddha simplied Vedanta, Chan further simplied Buddhism and Zen even simplied Chan some more, just my incomplete observation, having a grasp of the roots of the teachings solidifies the witness and in turn helps the mind to be connected closer to the spirit.Personal spiritual experiences are vastly different from one parctitioner to another and they are partial at best. It is proper to communicate the fundamentals in Dharma Terms to cover wider ground of this concept. "Dependent Origination" is, however in my view, not complex, if we can perceive a simple fact that every word that I have posted is "dependent" on every other words posted and also interdependent on the depth of language itself, my thoughts at this moment and everyone elses at the moment of reading, sutras quoted including all the misprint, incomplete knowledge of it, partial and personal experiences, etc. etc. So are all the sutras, teachings, sessions, we, me, you, etc. etc..Nothing is absolute. Everything is relative.I had fun. Thank you.Welcome more challenges.DonaldPS. In the Great Vehicle, there is this concept of "Related karma", every ego that we have a chance, or actually "caused" to meet is "related", we need to ferry everyone to Buddhaland. Pissing them off may back fire, I am usually very careful about that. Afterall, Vedanta specifically mentioned that "ignorance" is the only cause of unhappiness.After they are on board, then we can yell or beat them up like Rinzai. At that time, I will ask Bill to help out. Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday, July 22, 2006 8:18 PM Donald Hwong wrote: Good morning Bill, Thank you for your post.� I love your style, often filled with Firepower, very close to RinZai. It's Fun. Dependent Origination is the essence of Thai Buddhism and an important one as well to Vedanta. Even Thik Nahn Han's Interbeing may be Originated from that. What DavidK and You have pointed out that they occur together and inter-dependent are absolutely true in concept.� There is just a big different in Chinese and English. The word in Chinese is milder.� That said, however, I trust we both agree that English and Chinese are both "translated". Agreed. Translations are certainly subject to misunderstandings and miscommunication. My previous response was to issue a general challenge the use of the term 'Dependent Origination' which seem to me to be 180 degrees from the traditional zen approach which de-emphasizes complex concepts and big words - in fact any words. . 'Dependent Origination' is a very complex concept which is evident just from the fact that you, DaveK and Dharmastudent discussed it at length for several postings. My challenge was, does the concept of 'Dependent Origination' come from YOU? From YOUR EXPERIENCE? Or is it only a phrase you've read in the sutras? And if you say it does come from your experience, why are you using someone else's words to express it, and why do you have such a difficult time expressing it in plain
[Zen] Our Body
Good morning everyone,In 1700 BC, Vedanta taught that the Bhrama is the "Supreme Spirit or Ultimate Reality" and through Maya, like measurement and causation, actualized the universe. The four practices recommaned to wake up through the seven consciousness are Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Raja Yoga, and Karma Yoga. In short, they are like the practice of compassion, Dharma, Excercise and meditation.1200 years later in 500BC, Vedanta was hijacked by politics, Shakyamuni found Buddhism. As Boddhi Dharma arrived in China, he also taught the Shaolin Monks the similar yoga practices. Even though, Shaolin martial arts were more famous, Shaolin is the first Temple in China.Influenced by the Chinese culture, Taoist philosophy and Taoiest Chi(Qi) based excercises streamlineded as well as modified the Buddhist teaching and the Four Yoga practices. Still, Chan in China teaches Motion Chan and Sitting Chan. As far as I know, Chan teaches Dharma (Boddhi) 36 forms of Motion Chan and for Sitting Chan there is the internal Qi excercises with 10 Dharma wheels(chakra) and 3 Qi Channels. Nowadays, the Motion Chan and the Internal Qi excercises for Sitting Chan are scarecely practiced in China, and Chan became more of a mental excercise, or worse, just a form or a ritual.Our body is our bridge and temple to our spirituality. A healthy body without sickness with full alertness is the foundation to effective meditation. Chinese Chan's fine tuning of the Qi of our body can help to connect to the universal Qi. No different than what Vedanta taught 3,700 years ago.On the web, there were not too much topic on the "body" part of "body, mind and spirit." that I can find. I am sharing here as a reference, with the very little that I know. As we learn mentally, absorb spiritually, proper physical excercise of our body can be very helpful to quiet our mind, to sharpen our senses and let the Inner Self to shine through.Chan always emphasized, "Connect through the heart."May Buddha Bless us all,JMJM Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[Zen] One again
Hi All,It is so enjoyable to observe the ripple when a stone is tossed into the pond. Namaste to you all.Either we are attached to "NOT having a definition for Zen", or "having a definition for Zen" are both dualistic. Similarly, when we are attached to the practice we familiar as "Zazen", while there are many other practices also called ZaZen or ZenZa, could be a filtering effect caused by our mind.Zen is always what it is. Whether we like it, don't it, works for me, not working for me, agree or disagree. Who is ME?Because Zen is a life force, it can not be described or defined by words. Worst if it is defined, then most of us would cling to it. Just like we cling to our teachrs often. It is for the wellbeing of practitioners not to define it but to connect to it. When we get to that state of connection, any of us can witness it as, or like a "life force".Yet, "Life force is not a life force, just called a life force." Sounds familiar?Then if we avoid not be attached to "having or not having a definition." nor to "ZaZen this way or ZaZen that way", what do we do?Our Inner Self will know. Why are we still here discussing? Why are we still here sharing? Or even why are we still here?Osho said something like this, "Dharma is like a cloud, absorb its beauty as a whole and make it yours to enrich your life, not to dive in and disect it, compare it, find out its formation. If you can not do that, then the cloud does not exist. Or does it?"Traditional Zen teachers tried hard to avoid a dualistic situation between them and their students, that is why they do not take a stance in anything. That is why traditional Linji, and TsaoDong, used stick and yelling instead. Teachers are to wake us up our InnerSelf and let us "get it" ourselves. Not to take a stand and force us to compare, agree or disagree.Due to the limitation of personal experiences, words can be misinterpreted, just get the general concept and enrich our lives.Seek this way or that way is not a decision to be made by our mind. Give our Inner Self a chance. Let it experience and witness itself. Don't judge or compare. Again, Namaste to Your All,Donald The One (Just kidding)JMJM Yahoo! Groups gets better. Check out the new email design. Plus theres much more to come. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Paint-by-numbers (was 7th ..., related to One ...)
Hello Bill,I have checked with Taiwan. I am sorry to inform you that our groupd don't have any facility or teacher in Thailand. However if you do have an opportunity to travel to Taiwan, I will make arrangement for you to visit two or three different Chan Schools.We are Taiwan Zen Buddhist Association. We have about 50 meditation centers in Taiwan. A few do speak English. The largest one can sit 2,200 people.We are about to launch an English website, when that is ready, I will notify you.Namaste,DonaldBill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, June 22 donald hwong (JMJM) wrote: [JMJM...]After BodhiDharma brought the "teaching without words and formalities" to China, this Buddhist teaching is slowly mixed with the Daoiest teaching, which states, "Any description of path is not the path." This mix is then called Chan. then brought to Japan 600 years later and prounced Zen. We noticed this not only in the teaching of the Third Patriarch, also in the difference of chakra positions and the related Chi(Qi) channels of Indian and Daoiest practices. Dao, as you know is the origin of accupuncture, herbal medicine, etc. ...balance snipped... Thanks for the informative post. I enjoyed reading it. I too believe zen evolved from a mix of Indian Buddhism and Chinese Taoism. I also think the style of zen we primarily see in the West has been heavily influenced Japanese culture. Korean zen is also now taking a firm hold in the West and it does have some refreshing differences. I personally haven't encountered any Chinese-style ch'an teachers. I would like to meet and talk with one. I live in Thailand. Do you or anyone else on the Forum know of any zen/ch'an teachers here? Thanks...Bill! Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Zen Is One, two, three ...
Well stated, Bill. We shall continue alone these subjects some other day.All is Zen, everything we posted, you, me as well as everyone else are all Zen.These are all menifestation of Zen. Branches of the tree and not its life force.To be more "wordly correct", Zen is all. How is that?Thank you for your patience and support and this discussion stream. A deep bowl to you.JMJM++Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday, June 21 donald hwong (JMJM) wrote: [...introductory portion snipped...] [JMJM...]Is there a disconnect in the teachings after 2500 years? Is there one true which is also all? Or is it important? Importance is a relative term. For those who wish to paint-by-number these teachings, their continuity and the concept of 'One Truth which is All' are very important. For me these teachings, their continuity and the concept are usually very interesting; sometimes helpful, sometimes misleading and distracting, but not important. For me zazen, or more correctly stated the EFFECTS of zazen, are important. ...Bill! Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Zen Is One, two, three ...
Hi Bill,After reading my own post, I believe what I meant to say is that:"Zen is in all, but all is not Zen."It is hard to express a "sense or awareness".Anyhow, these are just words. Though nothing I've posted is important, you still manage to respond everytime. I truly have learnt and enjoyed. *smile*My respect to your dedication and commitment,JMJMdonald hwong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well stated, Bill. We shall continue alone these subjects some other day.All is Zen, everything we posted, you, me as well as everyone else are all Zen.These are all menifestation of Zen. Branches of the tree and not its life force.To be more "wordly correct", Zen is all. How is that?Thank you for your patience and support and this discussion stream. A deep bowl to you.JMJM++Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday, June 21 donald hwong (JMJM) wrote: [...introductory portion snipped...] [JMJM...]Is there a disconnect in the teachings after 2500 years? Is there one true which is also all? Or is it important? Importance is a relative term. For those who wish to paint-by-number these teachings, their continuity and the concept of 'One Truth which is All' are very important. For me these teachings, their continuity and the concept are usually very interesting; sometimes helpful, sometimes misleading and distracting, but not important. For me zazen, or more correctly stated the EFFECTS of zazen, are important. ...Bill!Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Zen Is One.
Goog Morning Bill,Let us try with more familiar terms...Focus on the present moment enables us to put down our mind and its derivatives, just observe every moment independent of the previous. Let the moment be the teacher.Like what the Six Patriarch said in his "Tan Jing", "No notion means every notion is independent." Or simply free ourselves from our mind.After 2,500 years of Buddhism, how do we learn?There are differences in interpretations, languages, practices? Every way that is avaible to us is a way to learn, because our past lives, we are always expose to a limited and certain numberof ways, statements, encounters, relationships, events, etc.Like a sponge, just absorb everything that is coming our way and try to benefit from it.If we defend our position and reject any, we are attaching to our limited knoweldge. This is the devil of our mind.If we doubt the truthfulness of it, then are we are having suspicion, one of the five poisons of our mind.If we think we know more, then it is our pride at work.If we become irritated, because someone pick on us, it is anger.These are the foundations of Buddhism illustrating the danger our mind.These are how we read Sutra as well as any statement from anyone, because Zen is One, or more clearly, Everything in this universe. Zen is a wholesome One. Being a Zen practitioner is to live it in every moment, and not just during meditation.If we not understand it, because we did not know.If we don't believe, because we are arrogant.If we having doubt, because our heart is closed.There is no need to dissect every word or every paragraph, agree or disagree. If we do that, then we are taking up a position, that limits our absorption of more knowledge. We need every knowledge until we are awakened to the fact that we are enslaved by our mind. Then we can truly benefit from Zen practice. Otherwise, it is merely a mental excercise, which my Master coined as, "Human Buddhism".We need not be fear, because Zen asked nothing in return by providing everything. We are always provided for. Are we not?Just be grateful. Calm down, Be a master of our mind. So That Our Spirit can shine through.With Palms Together,JMJM Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Zen Is One.
Good Morning Bill,I am sorry that I have lost you. It is due to my haste. As human, my I excuse my haste by stating that it was Father's Day? I apologize. My previous posts are to be read as a cloud, just absorb it without dive into it to find out its humidity, temperature, formation.Let me try again with concept more familiar.. Zen is one. Everything that is happening in this universe is part of this one. All subsets are incomplete.If we are part of this one, we can accept all arguments, all methods, all idealogy, all and everything that is being menifested, because now "we" are the "one" who is the creator, provider, and the undertaker. (do not be attached to the exact definition of these descriptors.)If we stand on, agree to, can not live with just a part of it, then we are abandoning the others. Then we are not in sync with Zen. We are what we are and not complete as "it".All studies and definitions of Zen, Buddhism, Dao, JMJM, Dharma, etc. are just names and not the real things itself. (repeatedly in Diamond Sutra), because sutras are for our convenience, for wakening up our Inner Self, so that we can begin to practice to allow our Inner Self to shine to be in sync with or connected to or resonate with the power of Zen.(or the life force, or the wisdom, or the Way, or the Path, these are just words)If we look at 2,500 Zen or Buddhism as a whole, the evolvement of every sect is affected by cause and effect. In searching for true Dharma, we often are lost among the branches. Get to the trunk does require merits cultivated from past lives.If our body is flesh, our mind is logic, and our spirit is an energy form, (However you prefer to define it) how do we integrate or connect these three parts into one?What is true Dhrma? What is the true purpose of "Chan Sit"?This post is to wake us up and understand our own limitations and not to take a position. Thank you for your patience.With palm together I remain, yours truly,JMJM Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] 7th Anniversary of the Zen Forum
Good morning Bill,Zen is the One True and not Two. It is the enforcer, enabler of all menifestations of the universe. It is in the domain of energy. Dharma is thereby always "transmitted" and not taught or ceremonialized.Knowledge about Zen, Buddhism, Dao, JMJM, are in the domain of our mind through our seven consciousness.These two domains do not intersect. (And our flesh is sadly in a third domain, which we have not even touched upon.)I share as "it is".No matter what I post, I can not make anyone to "sync" with the energy of Zen.Therefore I have not posted a single word worth anyone's effort to dive into it, disect, analyze, compare, agree or disagree. These are the activity for the domain of knowledge.May I add the following for the knowledge domain..Osho said, "Zen is the most beautiful thing. It is supreme mix of the essence of Dao and Buddhism."Dao Te Zin said, "Any descriptive Dao is not the Dao." While the third patriarch said, "The way is not hard, if we don't pick or choose."Allow me to repeat, all menifestions is due to Zen, whether we accept all or partial. Let us not be lost in the messages, but be in sync the carrier.Be Joyous,JMJMBill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday, June 17 donald hwong (JMJM) wrote: If so I disagree. So...I don't completely resonate with I don't like the pretentiousness of it.a definition is, I think, misleading. This is another 'I can live with that' statement. I don't completely disagree with what you've said, but I don't like the way Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] 7th Anniversary of the Zen Forum
Good Morning Bill,Now we have a common ground, "Zen is the life force and wisdom of the universe." Therefore, it can not be described, defined, talked, communicated by words, nor can it be comprehend by mind. It can only be connected to it with our Buddha nature. Zen is the one, which menifest the entire universe both present and past. Every being, every occurance is its menifestation. As trees grow, as we live and die, this life force is always there. If we can be part of it, be one with it, then we instantly will know all menifestations of every moment is impermanent and relative. As we sit and focusing at the present moment, are we focusing on the relativity? Or are we trying to connect to the ONE? No self, no mind is only the first stage of "Purification", when we are connected, we reach the second stage of "Wisdom", then when we accomplish the third stage of "Consummation", we become Boddhisatva. Only when we are enlightened, then we are Buddha.No mind, so self is on the way to Buddha, but not quite there yet. It is a long struggle, but much more pleasant than just sitting and sitting and sitting. *smile*Let me know if you're ready to venture.JMJM is "Jue Miao Jing Ming" for short. It is my Dharma name given to me by my Master. I use it when I talk about Dharma. I am grateful of having such honor as well as the patience and understanding of this discussion group in reading my post.Namaste,JMJMBill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Donald...] The only "form that is real" is the life force of Zen. That is the carrier, the energy, the wave, the enabler, the under taker of all messages, perceptions, menifestation,. relative to the moment. I can live with that. [Donald...] State of "No self" is no different that of "false form". It is to help to block the mind, the head, the brain, the thinking,� the logic, the opinion, etc. so to reach emptiness or Nirvana.� After that enables the possibility of connecting or in sync with Zen, Buddha Nature or Inner Divine or enlightenment. I agree with the first part of the above statement, but not with the last. My objection is still with the word (words again!) 'connection'. Connection implies there are two or more separate entities. When you reach the state you (and I) described as 'no-mind' you realize that you ARE Buddha, that you ARE constantly manifesting Buddha Nature and in fact that you always have. No connection is required. Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] 7th Anniversary of the Zen Forum
It is a relief that we have postings, so that Al will not worry about it. I guess I better continue... I sense the energy and fast fingers of Bill. It is positive. That is wonderful. Since so much is covered by him, we may want to start by focus on just some of the issues, so that we don't get lost in words, or attahched to words."Real Posting" is not real. No posting is real. All is relative to the moment.The only "form that is real" is the life force of Zen. That is the carrier, the energy, the wave, the enabler, the under taker of all messages, perceptions, menifestation,. relative to the moment. State of "No self" is no different that of "false form". It is to help to block the mind, the head, the brain, the thinking, the logic, the opinion, etc. so to reach emptiness or Nirvana. After that enables the possibility of connecting or in sync with Zen, Buddha Nature or Inner Divine or enlightenment."Opinions, karmas", like our mind, disturb the purity of our Inner self, blocking us from connecting to the universal energy and wisdom.How else do we integrate our body, mind and spirit to be ONE?Are we having fun now? :-)A big smile to you all,JMJMBill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday, June 16 donald hwong wrote: Hey! A real posting! Thanks Donald. I'm in your debt. My high-speed response follows: With Palms together, With palms spread out over my keyboard, Zen is defined as the universal life force and wisdom. It emcompasses all. Zen is not definable. Any attempt to define it limits it. Best not to try. Once we had an opinion, we have foresaken the ones with opposite opinion. Then we are not in sync with Zen, we are in sync only with our mind. Having opinions does not mean you have 'foresaken' others. Opinions are fine. Placing values on opinions (such as good, bad, right, wrong) is where you start to get off on the wrong track. Karma of this world distributes, we can not remain purified, if we keep every effort to ourselves. Everyone is part of this life force of Zen, whether he/she is aware or not. Karma cannot 'distribute' or influence if there is no self which it can target or on which it can attach. When there is no-self there is no karma. No-self also cannot be assigned values like 'purified' or 'defiled'. What is it that is 'purified' or 'defiled'? There is a reason for everything, everyone, every event in this universe. The need for seeking reasons and justifications springs from a desire to understand; and a desire to understand comes from a need for the comfort and feeling of control that brings. No-self does not need to control or understand. No-self seeks no reasons. If you are connected, you need not to be afraid, because Zen dictates everything. It always provides, harmonizes and balances. No-self is not connected since there is no other-thing to which a connection can be formed. Zen does not dictate or provide. What is there that is lacking that needs to be dictated or provided? Harmonies and balances are values, and again are not applicable to no-self. A deep bowl to you all. A quick punch of the keyboard to send this on its high-speed way... Be Joyous. Ahhh! ...Bill! Yahoo! Groups gets better. Check out the new email design. Plus theres much more to come. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
Re: [Zen] 7th Anniversary of the Zen Forum
With Palms together,Zen is defined as the universal life force and wisdom. It emcompasses all. Once we had an opinion, we have foresaken the ones with opposite opinion. Then we are not in sync with Zen, we are in sync only with our mind.Karma of this world distributes, we can not remain purified, if we keep every effort to ourselves. Everyone is part of this life force of Zen, whether he/she is aware or not.There is a reason for everything, everyone, every event in this universe.If you are connected, you need not to be afraid, because Zen dictates everything. It always provides, harmonizes and balances.A deep bowl to you all.Be Joyous.Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In July, it will be seven years since I began the Zen Forum. What have I learned in those seven years? The people that have deep insights and a well-developed personality don't need to be here. The people that lack those qualities don't learn anything from being passive participants on an internet list. Best wishes, Al __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Zen Zen alarm clock Zen micro Zen touch Zen cart YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
Re: [Zen] Re: Is there an objective?
If no one else has any other input, then next question - what is real or truth? Namaste, Donald dkotschessa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, donald hwong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Bill for letting me feel comfortable and welcomed. My question is, from the reading, it seems to indicate, slience, or emptiness or vacancy or nothingness is where we need to reach first!??? If so, then what? Do you have any other post? Namaste. There are lots of reasons and objectives and goals in Zen and anybody that says otherwise is probably parroting something they mis-read out of a book. Having said that, when you are actually sitting in zazen, if you are trying to reach the objective, you have your mind on the future rather than in the present. When you're doing the practice, you focus on the means and the means only. The means is zazen. It might be the breath, it might be a koan, it might be shikantaza. That's the only thing you focus on. The breath, or the koan, or shikantaza is the means to get you to the objective, which could be said to be samadhi. You can't get samadhi by hoping for it. But it will happen very often in the beginning that you will be wanting to get there and this is natural. You just have to forget about wanting and go back to the practice. Sometimes you'll realize you want to reach some state, then you'll say oh I need to stop wanting to reach some state, so you'll think ok now I'm going to stop wanting to reach some state. And now you're just wanting something else! It can be a real mess. I think my first year of zazen was something like this. Now my mind can be a mess but I'm not upset that it's a mess. I just sit there and see the mess and...well there it is. It's kind of like when somebody tells you Calm down! Doesn't that piss you off more than anything? Our minds are funny like that. -Davek Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group Zen_Forum on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Everything you need is one click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AHchtC/4FxNAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM ~- Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Is there an objective?
I apologize for not being clear on the question. I am the newest member to the group. The moderator, I guess is Jarvis, sent me a few articles to read and encouraged me to ask questions and participate in the discussion. After I read zen.pdf, Wu-Ming and Instructions of Meditation, I asked, Is there an objective or not? Thank you, Donald Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: donald hwong [EMAIL PROTECTED] Okay, here we go... Is there an objective or not? DaveK wrote: To what? ...to any of Jarvis' posts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Tibetan buddhism Zen alarm clock Zen garden - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group Zen_Forum on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get to your groups with one click. Know instantly when new email arrives http://us.click.yahoo.com/.7bhrC/MGxNAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM ~- Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Is there an objective?
Thank you Bill for letting me feel comfortable and welcomed. My question is, from the reading, it seems to indicate, slience, or emptiness or vacancy or nothingness is where we need to reach first!??? If so, then what? Do you have any other post? Namaste. Bill Smart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Donald wrote: I apologize for not being clear on the question. I am the newest member to the group. The moderator, I guess is Jarvis, sent me a few articles to read and encouraged me to ask questions and participate in the discussion. After I read zen.pdf, Wu-Ming and Instructions of Meditation, I asked, Is there an objective or not? Donald, Since you're a self-confessed Newbie I'll give you some tips: - Never say you weren't clear. Say there was some technical problem with you post because of the Yahoo! software, or suggest the site has been hacked by militant Presbyterians. - Jarvis (aka Al) is the moderator; although I'm sure you soon discover there's nothing moderate about him. - Reading, asking questions and participating in the discussions are what this forum is all about. I'd also add that actually practicing zen would be a good thing, but I guess that's optional. - In the beginning I'd wager that everyone has had multiple objectives they would like to achieve through their zen practice. I certainly did. As you practice, especially if you practice under the tutelage of an accomplished zen master, your objectives will change and soften. Eventually however, and the real answer to your question is that, you will realize there is actually no objective to zen practice. Just to practice is complete in and of itself and needs no additional objectives or goals. In zen talk making a very simple thing (like zen practice) unnecessarily complicated (like having objectives or goals) is sometimes expressed as 'putting one head on top of another'. Good luck, and watch out for those pesky Presbyterians...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! SPONSORED LINKS Zen buddhism Tibetan buddhism Zen alarm clock Zen garden - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group Zen_Forum on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Home is just a click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/DHchtC/3FxNAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM ~- Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
