Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hi Mark, I completely agree with Bills! explaination of zazen, but I would also add one more piece of advice. Don't let counting your breath become a mantra where you concentrate on the count more than the feeling of air travelling up and down your nose. Counting tends to separate us from our body just like a mantra. Feeling the subtle touch of the breath helps keep us in touch with the body, ie, body/mind. Of course, they are both techniques which ultimately need to be dropped in favour of shikentaza where nothing occupies our mind. Mike From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 28 October, 2008 9:53:34 Subject: FW: [Zen] Test of Character markkrauss22, Here is a previous posting on zazen technique... Bill! > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] org] > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 8:11 AM > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com' > Subject: RE: [Zen] Test of Character > > Jody, > > First you need to know how to breath properly. Your posture is very > important. Sit in some posture with your spine upright. Any > variations of the lotus position are best, but you can also sit on the > edge of a hard chair as long as you keep your back upright and do not > lean against the back of the chair. Use 'belly breathing', using only > your diaphragm. Your lower 'belly' should go in and out when you > breath. You should not breath by expanding your chest or raising your > shoulders. Breathe slowly and deeply, but effortlessly. You'll have > to settle in to your own rhythm to do this well. Focus your 'mind', > your counting, your awareness, in your belly, NOT IN YOUR HEAD!. The > Japanese word for this is 'hara', an area about 3-4 finger-widths below > your belly-button. This is VERY IMPORTANT! > > At first sit for only about 10 minutes. Increase this time as you > become more accustomed to sitting, both mentally and physically. 20 > minutes is a good time. I sit 30 to 45 minutes, but I've been sitting > for many years. Also, sit every day if you can, even if for just 5 > minutes. > > FIRST sit counting your breaths, 1 to 10, and then start over. Count > each exhale and inhale separately, starting with 1 on your first > exhale, 2 on your first inhale, etc... (All your focus and strength is > strongest on exhales - that's why marital artists or athletes yell > (exhale) when striking/hitting. JMJM would refer to this as 'chi'.) > When you finish your 5th inhale (count 10), start over. Only > think/focus on ONE, TWO, THREE, etc... If your mind wanders and you > lose count, start over at 1. If you find yourself counting '12, 13, > ...', start over. If you find yourself thinking 'Gee, I'm really > sitting well today!' or 'I wonder how many minutes left.', start over. > > AFTER you have mastered that, start your count (1) on your exhale and > continue counting 1 through your inhale. The next exhale/inhale is 2, > etc... > > AFTER you have mastered that, start marking exhales/inhales only as OUT > - IN. Start with your exhale. Out - In - Out - In. > > AFTER you have mastered that, start 'following' the breaths. No count, > no marks, no words. Just your awareness flowing out and in with your > breaths. > > AFTER you have mastered that, drop to following. Drop everything. > Just sit. > > That is zazen (shikantaza - clear mind). > > I follow this sequence every time I sit to transition into shikantaza. > Sometimes I slide into shikantaza very quickly. Sometimes my mind is > very active (I'm thinking about something or have a problem I'm dealing > with) and it takes longer. Sometimes I sit an entire period (30 to 45 > minutes) without getting to shikantaza. That's not a problem and may > be the best sessions. That (to me) just means I need to sit more often, > not longer periods. > > Hope this helps. > > ...Bill!
FW: [Zen] Test of Character
markkrauss22, Here is a previous posting on zazen technique...Bill! > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 8:11 AM > To: 'Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com' > Subject: RE: [Zen] Test of Character > > Jody, > > First you need to know how to breath properly. Your posture is very > important. Sit in some posture with your spine upright. Any > variations of the lotus position are best, but you can also sit on the > edge of a hard chair as long as you keep your back upright and do not > lean against the back of the chair. Use 'belly breathing', using only > your diaphragm. Your lower 'belly' should go in and out when you > breath. You should not breath by expanding your chest or raising your > shoulders. Breathe slowly and deeply, but effortlessly. You'll have > to settle in to your own rhythm to do this well. Focus your 'mind', > your counting, your awareness, in your belly, NOT IN YOUR HEAD!. The > Japanese word for this is 'hara', an area about 3-4 finger-widths below > your belly-button. This is VERY IMPORTANT! > > At first sit for only about 10 minutes. Increase this time as you > become more accustomed to sitting, both mentally and physically. 20 > minutes is a good time. I sit 30 to 45 minutes, but I've been sitting > for many years. Also, sit every day if you can, even if for just 5 > minutes. > > FIRST sit counting your breaths, 1 to 10, and then start over. Count > each exhale and inhale separately, starting with 1 on your first > exhale, 2 on your first inhale, etc... (All your focus and strength is > strongest on exhales - that's why marital artists or athletes yell > (exhale) when striking/hitting. JMJM would refer to this as 'chi'.) > When you finish your 5th inhale (count 10), start over. Only > think/focus on ONE, TWO, THREE, etc... If your mind wanders and you > lose count, start over at 1. If you find yourself counting '12, 13, > ...', start over. If you find yourself thinking 'Gee, I'm really > sitting well today!' or 'I wonder how many minutes left.', start over. > > AFTER you have mastered that, start your count (1) on your exhale and > continue counting 1 through your inhale. The next exhale/inhale is 2, > etc... > > AFTER you have mastered that, start marking exhales/inhales only as OUT > - IN. Start with your exhale. Out - In - Out - In. > > AFTER you have mastered that, start 'following' the breaths. No count, > no marks, no words. Just your awareness flowing out and in with your > breaths. > > AFTER you have mastered that, drop to following. Drop everything. > Just sit. > > That is zazen (shikantaza - clear mind). > > I follow this sequence every time I sit to transition into shikantaza. > Sometimes I slide into shikantaza very quickly. Sometimes my mind is > very active (I'm thinking about something or have a problem I'm dealing > with) and it takes longer. Sometimes I sit an entire period (30 to 45 > minutes) without getting to shikantaza. That's not a problem and may > be the best sessions. That (to me) just means I need to sit more often, > not longer periods. > > Hope this helps. > > ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
From: BillSmart@>I used an example Catholic Hail Mary's, but it would, as you point out, eventually apply to anything repeated over and over and over and over... > I bought a rosary and did the whole thing. I thought it was only about 33 prayers but it was closer to 70. I forget the exact number though I counted the beads. It was an interesting exercise and it refreshed my mind. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, I'm not a Dutch Uncle, I'm just Bill! And yes, I do think we have a wonderful family here on Yahoo! Zen Forum. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody W. Ianuzzi Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 9:34 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Hello Bill, If JMJM is a doting grandmother, then are you a Dutch Uncle? What a wonderful family. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Bill, If JMJM is a doting grandmother, then are you a Dutch Uncle? What a wonderful family. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Bill, Good analysis. Time for everybody to take off those training wheels! :-) Edgar On Aug 31, 2008, at 9:27 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Edgar brings up a good point, and that is 'what is zen'? In the post below Edgar informally defined zen as 'unfiltered/raw experience' and a 'way of life'. It is indeed both of those. I (and most other people) also use the word 'zen' to refer to a PROCESS - the process of learning (unlearning really) or transitioning out of the illusory world created by our rational mind into the unfiltered/raw world of our Buddha Mind. This process, according to different schools, has techniques such as meditation, koans, chanting, bowing, fasting, taking vows, (and maybe visualizations? - YUK!), etc... As Edgar and JMJM have suggested, once the transition has been accomplished, these techniques are no longer necessary - and in fact were never really necessary. They are like the training wheels you put on the back of a bicycle. They help you in the beginning, but can be discarded after you learn to ride. (And could be constraining your ability to ride very well.) They never were really necessary, but hopefully were helpful. ...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 6:47 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Bill and Jody, I have no problem at all with Bill's excellent description of a useful technique. I would like to point out though that ultimately Zen doesn't depend on any technique and has nothing to do with zazen or sitting. True zen is just experiencing things as they actually are no matter what one is doing, or where one is. You can be sitting in zazen or doing anything whatsoever in your daily life. As I think Bill would agree zen is 24/7, it is always present no matter what one is doing, it's just a matter of looking around and seeing and directly experiencing. Likewise zen is not something to be found just within the gates of a zen temple. There is no gate to enter to find zen. Thus mumon, the gateless (nonexistent) gate. Zen is everywhere in the universe. It is always right where you are right now. Edgar
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, You certainly can learn from anyone and everyone. It's all up to you. If you re-read both JMJM's and my posts you'll see we had essentially the same comments about the meditation technique you described (sea/sea creatures). Only our styles were different. Part of the reason our styles were different is the school of zen in which we were taught (Chinese Chan:Japanese zen). Part of the reason is probably also our own personalities. And in fact our personalities might have led us to our particular school, and our school certainly helped further shape our personalities or teaching style. More important than all that is that the teaching technique should be comfortable for the student so as to be most effective. That means either the teacher has to tailor his/her style to the individual (which means the teacher has to REALLY KNOW the individual - and that's next to impossible via the internet), or the student must search around for a teacher that has a style that fits him/her. I am not a teacher. I only offer my perspectives and sometimes advice from my experience. JMJM is a teacher. If you're ever at odds as to whose advice to take, even I would advise you to lean towards JMJM. Even though he's a wimpy, doting grandmother and will spoil you rotten! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody W. Ianuzzi Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 1:45 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Hi again Bill, I like JMJM and I like your comments too. I figure I can learn from everyone. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Edgar brings up a good point, and that is 'what is zen'? In the post below Edgar informally defined zen as 'unfiltered/raw experience' and a 'way of life'. It is indeed both of those. I (and most other people) also use the word 'zen' to refer to a PROCESS - the process of learning (unlearning really) or transitioning out of the illusory world created by our rational mind into the unfiltered/raw world of our Buddha Mind. This process, according to different schools, has techniques such as meditation, koans, chanting, bowing, fasting, taking vows, (and maybe visualizations? - YUK!), etc... As Edgar and JMJM have suggested, once the transition has been accomplished, these techniques are no longer necessary - and in fact were never really necessary. They are like the training wheels you put on the back of a bicycle. They help you in the beginning, but can be discarded after you learn to ride. (And could be constraining your ability to ride very well.) They never were really necessary, but hopefully were helpful. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 6:47 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Bill and Jody, I have no problem at all with Bill's excellent description of a useful technique. I would like to point out though that ultimately Zen doesn't depend on any technique and has nothing to do with zazen or sitting. True zen is just experiencing things as they actually are no matter what one is doing, or where one is. You can be sitting in zazen or doing anything whatsoever in your daily life. As I think Bill would agree zen is 24/7, it is always present no matter what one is doing, it's just a matter of looking around and seeing and directly experiencing. Likewise zen is not something to be found just within the gates of a zen temple. There is no gate to enter to find zen. Thus mumon, the gateless (nonexistent) gate. Zen is everywhere in the universe. It is always right where you are right now. Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hi again Bill, I like JMJM and I like your comments too. I figure I can learn from everyone. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Bill, I was not meditation on the life in the sea, I was just thinking of it as I began to sit. I find that if I am able to take my mind off of the daily rush with ideas like this, then I can meditate better. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hi All, In its essence, Edgar is right. The journey however does begin with the purification of the three karmic influences to our body, mind and spirit. Cleans our body is to cleans our karma to our body. Cultivate our Chi is the most effective way to cleans our bodily karma. In Buddhism it is to ferry the sentient beings in our body. This is just the first step in our long journey. JM Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill and Jody, > > > I have no problem at all with Bill's excellent description of a useful > technique. I would like to point out though that ultimately Zen > doesn't depend on any technique and has nothing to do with zazen or > sitting. True zen is just experiencing things as they actually are no > matter what one is doing, or where one is. You can be sitting in zazen > or doing anything whatsoever in your daily life. As I think Bill would > agree zen is 24/7, it is always present no matter what one is doing, > it's just a matter of looking around and seeing and directly experiencing. > > Likewise zen is not something to be found just within the gates of a > zen temple. There is no gate to enter to find zen. Thus mumon, the > gateless (nonexistent) gate. Zen is everywhere in the universe. It is > always right where you are right now. > > Edgar > > > > On Aug 30, 2008, at 9:10 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > >> Jody, >> >> First you need to know how to breath properly. Your posture is very >> important. Sit in some posture with your spine upright. Any >> variations of the lotus position are best, but you can also sit on >> the edge of a hard chair as long as you keep your back upright and do >> not lean against the back of the chair. Use 'belly breathing', using >> only your diaphragm. Your lower 'belly' should go in and out when you >> breath. You should not breath by expanding your chest or raising your >> shoulders. Breathe slowly and deeply, but effortlessly. You'll have >> to settle in to your own rhythm to do this well. Focus your 'mind', >> your counting, your awareness, in your belly, NOT IN YOUR HEAD!. The >> Japanese word for this is 'hara', an area about 3-4 finger-widths >> below your belly-button. This is VERY IMPORTANT! >> >> At first sit for only about 10 minutes. Increase this time as you >> become more accustomed to sitting, both mentally and physically. 20 >> minutes is a good time. I sit 30 to 45 minutes, but I've been sitting >> for many years. Also, sit every day if you can, even if for just 5 >> minutes. >> >> FIRST sit counting your breaths, 1 to 10, and then start over. Count >> each exhale and inhale separately, starting with 1 on your first >> exhale, 2 on your first inhale, etc... (All your focus and strength >> is strongest on exhales - that's why marital artists or athletes yell >> (exhale) when striking/hitting. JMJM would refer to this as 'chi'.) >> When you finish your 5th inhale (count 10), start over. Only >> think/focus on ONE, TWO, THREE, etc... If your mind wanders and you >> lose count, start over at 1. If you find yourself counting '12, 13, >> ...', start over. If you find yourself thinking 'Gee, I'm really >> sitting well today!' or 'I wonder how many minutes left.', start over. >> >> AFTER you have mastered that, start your count (1) on your exhale and >> continue counting 1 through your inhale. The next exhale/inhale is 2, >> etc... >> >> AFTER you have mastered that, start marking exhales/inhales only as >> OUT - IN. Start with your exhale. Out - In - Out - In. >> >> AFTER you have mastered that, start 'following' the breaths. No >> count, no marks, no words. Just your awareness flowing out and in >> with your breaths. >> >> AFTER you have mastered that, drop to following. Drop everything. >> Just sit. >> >> That is zazen (shikantaza - clear mind). >> >> I follow this sequence every time I sit to transition into >> shikantaza. Sometimes I slide into shikantaza very quickly. Sometimes >> my mind is very active (I'm thinking about something or have a >> problem I'm dealing with) and it takes longer. Sometimes I sit an >> entire period (30 to 45 minutes) without getting to shikantaza. >> That's not a problem and may be the best sessions. That (to me) just >> means I need to sit more often, not longer periods. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.c
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Bill and Jody, I have no problem at all with Bill's excellent description of a useful technique. I would like to point out though that ultimately Zen doesn't depend on any technique and has nothing to do with zazen or sitting. True zen is just experiencing things as they actually are no matter what one is doing, or where one is. You can be sitting in zazen or doing anything whatsoever in your daily life. As I think Bill would agree zen is 24/7, it is always present no matter what one is doing, it's just a matter of looking around and seeing and directly experiencing. Likewise zen is not something to be found just within the gates of a zen temple. There is no gate to enter to find zen. Thus mumon, the gateless (nonexistent) gate. Zen is everywhere in the universe. It is always right where you are right now. Edgar On Aug 30, 2008, at 9:10 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jody, First you need to know how to breath properly. Your posture is very important. Sit in some posture with your spine upright. Any variations of the lotus position are best, but you can also sit on the edge of a hard chair as long as you keep your back upright and do not lean against the back of the chair. Use 'belly breathing', using only your diaphragm. Your lower 'belly' should go in and out when you breath. You should not breath by expanding your chest or raising your shoulders. Breathe slowly and deeply, but effortlessly. You'll have to settle in to your own rhythm to do this well. Focus your 'mind', your counting, your awareness, in your belly, NOT IN YOUR HEAD!. The Japanese word for this is 'hara', an area about 3-4 finger-widths below your belly-button. This is VERY IMPORTANT! At first sit for only about 10 minutes. Increase this time as you become more accustomed to sitting, both mentally and physically. 20 minutes is a good time. I sit 30 to 45 minutes, but I've been sitting for many years. Also, sit every day if you can, even if for just 5 minutes. FIRST sit counting your breaths, 1 to 10, and then start over. Count each exhale and inhale separately, starting with 1 on your first exhale, 2 on your first inhale, etc... (All your focus and strength is strongest on exhales - that's why marital artists or athletes yell (exhale) when striking/hitting. JMJM would refer to this as 'chi'.) When you finish your 5th inhale (count 10), start over. Only think/focus on ONE, TWO, THREE, etc... If your mind wanders and you lose count, start over at 1. If you find yourself counting '12, 13, ...', start over. If you find yourself thinking 'Gee, I'm really sitting well today!' or 'I wonder how many minutes left.', start over. AFTER you have mastered that, start your count (1) on your exhale and continue counting 1 through your inhale. The next exhale/inhale is 2, etc... AFTER you have mastered that, start marking exhales/inhales only as OUT - IN. Start with your exhale. Out - In - Out - In. AFTER you have mastered that, start 'following' the breaths. No count, no marks, no words. Just your awareness flowing out and in with your breaths. AFTER you have mastered that, drop to following. Drop everything. Just sit. That is zazen (shikantaza - clear mind). I follow this sequence every time I sit to transition into shikantaza. Sometimes I slide into shikantaza very quickly. Sometimes my mind is very active (I'm thinking about something or have a problem I'm dealing with) and it takes longer. Sometimes I sit an entire period (30 to 45 minutes) without getting to shikantaza. That's not a problem and may be the best sessions. That (to me) just means I need to sit more often, not longer periods. Hope this helps. ...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody W. Ianuzzi Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:49 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Hello JM, I hope to reach the level of meditation where I don't have to count my breths. I am still a beginner. I hope to reach the point where I am just sitting. I will keep working on it while not working on it. JODY __ NOD32 3394 (20080827) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, First you need to know how to breath properly. Your posture is very important. Sit in some posture with your spine upright. Any variations of the lotus position are best, but you can also sit on the edge of a hard chair as long as you keep your back upright and do not lean against the back of the chair. Use 'belly breathing', using only your diaphragm. Your lower 'belly' should go in and out when you breath. You should not breath by expanding your chest or raising your shoulders. Breathe slowly and deeply, but effortlessly. You'll have to settle in to your own rhythm to do this well. Focus your 'mind', your counting, your awareness, in your belly, NOT IN YOUR HEAD!. The Japanese word for this is 'hara', an area about 3-4 finger-widths below your belly-button. This is VERY IMPORTANT! At first sit for only about 10 minutes. Increase this time as you become more accustomed to sitting, both mentally and physically. 20 minutes is a good time. I sit 30 to 45 minutes, but I've been sitting for many years. Also, sit every day if you can, even if for just 5 minutes. FIRST sit counting your breaths, 1 to 10, and then start over. Count each exhale and inhale separately, starting with 1 on your first exhale, 2 on your first inhale, etc... (All your focus and strength is strongest on exhales - that's why marital artists or athletes yell (exhale) when striking/hitting. JMJM would refer to this as 'chi'.) When you finish your 5th inhale (count 10), start over. Only think/focus on ONE, TWO, THREE, etc... If your mind wanders and you lose count, start over at 1. If you find yourself counting '12, 13, ...', start over. If you find yourself thinking 'Gee, I'm really sitting well today!' or 'I wonder how many minutes left.', start over. AFTER you have mastered that, start your count (1) on your exhale and continue counting 1 through your inhale. The next exhale/inhale is 2, etc... AFTER you have mastered that, start marking exhales/inhales only as OUT - IN. Start with your exhale. Out - In - Out - In. AFTER you have mastered that, start 'following' the breaths. No count, no marks, no words. Just your awareness flowing out and in with your breaths. AFTER you have mastered that, drop to following. Drop everything. Just sit. That is zazen (shikantaza - clear mind). I follow this sequence every time I sit to transition into shikantaza. Sometimes I slide into shikantaza very quickly. Sometimes my mind is very active (I'm thinking about something or have a problem I'm dealing with) and it takes longer. Sometimes I sit an entire period (30 to 45 minutes) without getting to shikantaza. That's not a problem and may be the best sessions. That (to me) just means I need to sit more often, not longer periods. Hope this helps. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody W. Ianuzzi Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:49 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Hello JM, I hope to reach the level of meditation where I don't have to count my breths. I am still a beginner. I hope to reach the point where I am just sitting. I will keep working on it while not working on it. JODY __ NOD32 3394 (20080827) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, JMJM is like a doting grandmother. In my opinion he is being too patronizing with you. That may be one of the differences between Chan zen and the Japanese zen through which I was introduced to zen. What you describe below about imagining the water is invisible and you could see all the sea life might be very comforting for you, and make you feel 'warm and fuzzy', but it is just a dream. More illusions. More maya. It is not good zen practice; it is not zen meditation. I've addressed a what I think would be a better (better, as in more effective) approach to meditation in my next post. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 2:28 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Well Jody, As long as the practice is to rest our monkey mind is the "correct" practice. Yet a more "effective" practice is not to imagine, or count the breath, or chant, because these practices raise our physical awareness and arouse our mind. Simply detached from all FORMS, follow the path of our breath, enhance our spirituality at all times, whether sitting or other wise, is an effective one. JM Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: > > Hello JM, > > I am not sure if my practice is correct, but I will imagine concepts > to get > in the state of mind to meditate. > > We live near the ocean and we will often go to the beach to meditate. One > day I imagined the water was invisible and I could see all the life in > the > ocean from the small to the large life there. It seemed so dramatic to > imagine all that life. It made me feel small by comparison but it also > made > me feel part of the universe. > > I was then able to meditate without having to block the usual monkey > mind of > daily events. > > I hope this is the correct practice. > > JODY in Florida > > __ NOD32 3394 (20080827) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello JM, I hope to reach the level of meditation where I don't have to count my breths. I am still a beginner. I hope to reach the point where I am just sitting. I will keep working on it while not working on it. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Indeed, world of labels and concepts are easy traps for us to fall, often it is coupled with the desire to know more and worse with the pride that we do. _/\_ Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > Hi Jue Miao, > > > Yes, everything needed is present at every moment (though your > terminology 'within us' is incorrect since it implies a self). The > only question is how best to realize that. Your emails are your > approach to that as mine are mine. Intellectual understanding is > useful primarily as it helps to recognize and avoid modes of thought > which interfere with realization, but as you say intellectual > understanding in itself is not realization, it is merely the finger, > not the moon. > > Best, > Edgar > > > > On Aug 30, 2008, at 3:32 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: > >> Hi Edgar, Is there a need to "understand" what is "pure" and what is >> "consciousness"? Don't we already had everything within us? Originally >> pure. Originally sufficient. Originally unmovable. JM >> >> Edgar Owen wrote: >> > >> > Jue Miao, >> > >> > >> > Of course direct experience not words is real Zen. That in fact is >> > what my papers all say though apparently you haven't read them. On >> > this group however we have to use words to communicate. The question >> > then becomes which words are more effective in eliciting or pointing >> > at direct experience? That of course will be different for different >> > people and different circumstances. By understanding what pure >> > consciousness really is and what keeps us from directly experiencing >> > it we can move beyond words to the direct experience itself. >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > >> > >> > On Aug 29, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: >> > >> >> Jody, You are right. The whole is the universal consciousness. All >> >> practices leads to "sync" us with the whole. While someone like Edgar, >> >> may analysis, theorize, understand, so called consciousness (just a >> >> label), or chanting or breathing (just a dharma), surrender all minds, >> >> big or small, rational or otherwise, is the quickest way to be synced >> >> with "whole". Every which other way could be a detour or incomplete. JM >> >> >> >> Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hello Bill, >> >> > >> >> > As much as I appreciate the Soto Zen methods of meditation, I am also >> >> > curious about the Tibetan methods of focusing on an image of >> >> > compassion and >> >> > moving towards it. I will use both methods at different times. >> >> > >> >> > The chant I use is OM MANI PADME HUM. I found that when I learned >> it's >> >> > meaning I appreciated it more. I think that using this chant is like >> >> > counting breaths, it keeps your mind from jumping around. >> >> > >> >> > As I first discovered Buddhism I thought I had to pick which was >> best, >> >> > now I >> >> > feel that Buddhism is Buddhism and all the ways are the same. >> It's all >> >> > part >> >> > of the whole. >> >> > >> >> > I just appreciate learning something new every day. >> >> > JODY >> >> > >> >> > JODY >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hi Jue Miao, Yes, everything needed is present at every moment (though your terminology 'within us' is incorrect since it implies a self). The only question is how best to realize that. Your emails are your approach to that as mine are mine. Intellectual understanding is useful primarily as it helps to recognize and avoid modes of thought which interfere with realization, but as you say intellectual understanding in itself is not realization, it is merely the finger, not the moon. Best, Edgar On Aug 30, 2008, at 3:32 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: Hi Edgar, Is there a need to "understand" what is "pure" and what is "consciousness"? Don't we already had everything within us? Originally pure. Originally sufficient. Originally unmovable. JM Edgar Owen wrote: > > Jue Miao, > > > Of course direct experience not words is real Zen. That in fact is > what my papers all say though apparently you haven't read them. On > this group however we have to use words to communicate. The question > then becomes which words are more effective in eliciting or pointing > at direct experience? That of course will be different for different > people and different circumstances. By understanding what pure > consciousness really is and what keeps us from directly experiencing > it we can move beyond words to the direct experience itself. > > Edgar > > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: > >> Jody, You are right. The whole is the universal consciousness. All >> practices leads to "sync" us with the whole. While someone like Edgar, >> may analysis, theorize, understand, so called consciousness (just a >> label), or chanting or breathing (just a dharma), surrender all minds, >> big or small, rational or otherwise, is the quickest way to be synced >> with "whole". Every which other way could be a detour or incomplete. JM >> >> Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: >> > >> > Hello Bill, >> > >> > As much as I appreciate the Soto Zen methods of meditation, I am also >> > curious about the Tibetan methods of focusing on an image of >> > compassion and >> > moving towards it. I will use both methods at different times. >> > >> > The chant I use is OM MANI PADME HUM. I found that when I learned it's >> > meaning I appreciated it more. I think that using this chant is like >> > counting breaths, it keeps your mind from jumping around. >> > >> > As I first discovered Buddhism I thought I had to pick which was best, >> > now I >> > feel that Buddhism is Buddhism and all the ways are the same. It's all >> > part >> > of the whole. >> > >> > I just appreciate learning something new every day. >> > JODY >> > >> > JODY >> > >> > >> > >
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hi Edgar, Is there a need to "understand" what is "pure" and what is "consciousness"? Don't we already had everything within us? Originally pure. Originally sufficient. Originally unmovable. JM Edgar Owen wrote: > > Jue Miao, > > > Of course direct experience not words is real Zen. That in fact is > what my papers all say though apparently you haven't read them. On > this group however we have to use words to communicate. The question > then becomes which words are more effective in eliciting or pointing > at direct experience? That of course will be different for different > people and different circumstances. By understanding what pure > consciousness really is and what keeps us from directly experiencing > it we can move beyond words to the direct experience itself. > > Edgar > > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: > >> Jody, You are right. The whole is the universal consciousness. All >> practices leads to "sync" us with the whole. While someone like Edgar, >> may analysis, theorize, understand, so called consciousness (just a >> label), or chanting or breathing (just a dharma), surrender all minds, >> big or small, rational or otherwise, is the quickest way to be synced >> with "whole". Every which other way could be a detour or incomplete. JM >> >> Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: >> > >> > Hello Bill, >> > >> > As much as I appreciate the Soto Zen methods of meditation, I am also >> > curious about the Tibetan methods of focusing on an image of >> > compassion and >> > moving towards it. I will use both methods at different times. >> > >> > The chant I use is OM MANI PADME HUM. I found that when I learned it's >> > meaning I appreciated it more. I think that using this chant is like >> > counting breaths, it keeps your mind from jumping around. >> > >> > As I first discovered Buddhism I thought I had to pick which was best, >> > now I >> > feel that Buddhism is Buddhism and all the ways are the same. It's all >> > part >> > of the whole. >> > >> > I just appreciate learning something new every day. >> > JODY >> > >> > JODY >> > >> > >> > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Well Jody, As long as the practice is to rest our monkey mind is the "correct" practice. Yet a more "effective" practice is not to imagine, or count the breath, or chant, because these practices raise our physical awareness and arouse our mind. Simply detached from all FORMS, follow the path of our breath, enhance our spirituality at all times, whether sitting or other wise, is an effective one. JM Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: > > Hello JM, > > I am not sure if my practice is correct, but I will imagine concepts > to get > in the state of mind to meditate. > > We live near the ocean and we will often go to the beach to meditate. One > day I imagined the water was invisible and I could see all the life in > the > ocean from the small to the large life there. It seemed so dramatic to > imagine all that life. It made me feel small by comparison but it also > made > me feel part of the universe. > > I was then able to meditate without having to block the usual monkey > mind of > daily events. > > I hope this is the correct practice. > > JODY in Florida > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello JM, I am not sure if my practice is correct, but I will imagine concepts to get in the state of mind to meditate. We live near the ocean and we will often go to the beach to meditate. One day I imagined the water was invisible and I could see all the life in the ocean from the small to the large life there. It seemed so dramatic to imagine all that life. It made me feel small by comparison but it also made me feel part of the universe. I was then able to meditate without having to block the usual monkey mind of daily events. I hope this is the correct practice. JODY in Florida Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Jue Miao, Of course direct experience not words is real Zen. That in fact is what my papers all say though apparently you haven't read them. On this group however we have to use words to communicate. The question then becomes which words are more effective in eliciting or pointing at direct experience? That of course will be different for different people and different circumstances. By understanding what pure consciousness really is and what keeps us from directly experiencing it we can move beyond words to the direct experience itself. Edgar On Aug 29, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: Jody, You are right. The whole is the universal consciousness. All practices leads to "sync" us with the whole. While someone like Edgar, may analysis, theorize, understand, so called consciousness (just a label), or chanting or breathing (just a dharma), surrender all minds, big or small, rational or otherwise, is the quickest way to be synced with "whole". Every which other way could be a detour or incomplete. JM Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: > > Hello Bill, > > As much as I appreciate the Soto Zen methods of meditation, I am also > curious about the Tibetan methods of focusing on an image of > compassion and > moving towards it. I will use both methods at different times. > > The chant I use is OM MANI PADME HUM. I found that when I learned it's > meaning I appreciated it more. I think that using this chant is like > counting breaths, it keeps your mind from jumping around. > > As I first discovered Buddhism I thought I had to pick which was best, > now I > feel that Buddhism is Buddhism and all the ways are the same. It's all > part > of the whole. > > I just appreciate learning something new every day. > JODY > > JODY > >
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, You are right. The whole is the universal consciousness. All practices leads to "sync" us with the whole. While someone like Edgar, may analysis, theorize, understand, so called consciousness (just a label), or chanting or breathing (just a dharma), surrender all minds, big or small, rational or otherwise, is the quickest way to be synced with "whole". Every which other way could be a detour or incomplete. JM Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: > > Hello Bill, > > As much as I appreciate the Soto Zen methods of meditation, I am also > curious about the Tibetan methods of focusing on an image of > compassion and > moving towards it. I will use both methods at different times. > > The chant I use is OM MANI PADME HUM. I found that when I learned it's > meaning I appreciated it more. I think that using this chant is like > counting breaths, it keeps your mind from jumping around. > > As I first discovered Buddhism I thought I had to pick which was best, > now I > feel that Buddhism is Buddhism and all the ways are the same. It's all > part > of the whole. > > I just appreciate learning something new every day. > JODY > > JODY > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Bill, You wrote :I agree with you that chanting does serve the same purpose as counting breaths. They're both used to quiet the mind - the rational mind. This is why I am still curious at your belief that knowing its meaning would better serve this purpose. For me, knowing its meaning while chanting, and worse yet appreciating that meaning, does not serve to quiet your mind. 'Knowing' and 'appreciating' are functions of your rational mind, and as long as you continue to know and appreciate, your rational mind is not quiet. Referring back to your first paragraph, 'images' and 'compassion' are also products of your rational mind. As long as you visualize images or feel compassion your rational mind is not quiet." I suppose at first this was true that I was not quieting my mind by thinking about the chant OM MANI PADME HUM. Now it is more like a comfortable place rather then a thought. It is like finding a comfortable position before meditating. Lighting incents does the same thing. It puts me in a state of mind to meditate. I certainly don't have a traditional approach to Buddhism. I have not been lucky enough to be part of a Sangha except online. I just keep learning as much as I can. I am reading a history of Asia and I am interested to learn the path buddhism took from India to china to Korea and to japan and beyond. As Buddhism travels it changes from culture to culture and I think that as it travels to the west, it will change here too. I suppose I just try to stay with the basics. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, Thanks for your post. I appreciate your perspectives and welcome the opportunity to discuss topics like these in an open forum. I hope others reading these posts will feel free to share their perspectives also. My responses are embedded in your most recent post below: Jody posted: >As much as I appreciate the Soto zen methods of meditation, I am also >curious about the Tibetan methods of focusing on an image of compassion >and moving towards it. I will use both methods at different times. If you think that is a good approach for you, then go for it! I have almost no knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism. From the little I do know, however, it's approach and teaching methods are quite different from those used in zen Buddhism. I want to make sure you don't think I represent Soto zen techniques. I do have a personal history of learning in both the Soto and Renzai zen schools, and even spent a short time later in my life with a Korean zen teacher. I have found that although their methods and techniques for beginners may differ, their core teachings and core techniques are the same. At times in my life I have incorporated various techniques: zazen, koans, chanting, visualizations, bowing, tai chi, special diets, fasting, etc... Currently I only employ zazen (shikantaza - clear mind) in my practice. >The chant I use is OM MANI PADME HUM. I found that when I learned it's >meaning I appreciated it more. I think that using this chant is like >counting breaths, it keeps your mind from jumping around. I agree with you that chanting does serve the same purpose as counting breaths. They're both used to quiet the mind - the rational mind. This is why I am still curious at your belief that knowing its meaning would better serve this purpose. For me, knowing its meaning while chanting, and worse yet appreciating that meaning, does not serve to quiet your mind. 'Knowing' and 'appreciating' are functions of your rational mind, and as long as you continue to know and appreciate, your rational mind is not quiet. Referring back to your first paragraph, 'images' and 'compassion' are also products of your rational mind. As long as you visualize images or feel compassion your rational mind is not quiet. >As I first discovered Buddhism I thought I had to pick which was best, >now I feel that Buddhism is Buddhism and all the ways are the same. It's >all part of the whole. I also want to make sure you don't think my perspectives represent traditional Buddhism. I don't consider myself a Buddhist and certainly do not speak for those who do think of themselves or their practice as Buddhist. I don't consider zen a sub-set of Buddhism as most people do. I consider zen to be a super-set, and most religions, including Buddhism and Christianity, culturally-colored subsets of zen. When I post I usually speak about zen using Buddhist terms, but I could also speak about zen using Christian terms or even non-religious/logic-based terms. For me these are just different sides of the same coin. The coin is zen, the sides - heads and tails - are just specific and partial perspectives of zen - like Buddhism and Christianity. I discovered this coin examining the Buddhist side, but having discovered and embraced it I quickly realized it was the same coin that I had been taught about in my Christian upbringing. So, when people discuss the merits of various religions, I just ask: heads or tails? It really doesn't make any difference. It's the same coin. >I just appreciate learning something new every day. >JODY So do I! Thanks for your post which contributed to my day. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Bill, As much as I appreciate the Soto Zen methods of meditation, I am also curious about the Tibetan methods of focusing on an image of compassion and moving towards it. I will use both methods at different times. The chant I use is OM MANI PADME HUM. I found that when I learned it's meaning I appreciated it more. I think that using this chant is like counting breaths, it keeps your mind from jumping around. As I first discovered Buddhism I thought I had to pick which was best, now I feel that Buddhism is Buddhism and all the ways are the same. It's all part of the whole. I just appreciate learning something new every day. JODY JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Edgar, Yes, I brought up this repetition phenomenon in my first post. I used an example Catholic Hail Mary's, but it would, as you point out, eventually apply to anything repeated over and over and over and over... I'm anxious to see what Jody responds as to her expectations vis-à-vis chanting. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:49 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Bill, Some good points. One comment. Actually I think the idea of chanting even if the words are in your language is to repeat something so many times that its rational meaning disappears, one stops thinking about the meaning, and only the sounds remain, so that the intention is as you suggest to subtract rational thought from consciousness. So I don't see any real disagreement between your and Jody's approach. As you say it is whatever works. Edgar On Aug 26, 2008, at 11:19 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jody, Thanks for your post. It gives me the opportunity to better explain my perspective on chanting. Jody wrote: >You described that chanting should be sounds with no meaning or chants from other languages that we don't understand. I did recommend this and stand by that recommendation. >But if the chants are in foreign languages, then the people who speak those languages UNDERSTAND what the chants mean. I think this is just a misunderstanding of what I meant. I used 'foreign' is a relative term, not an absolute term. In other words, what is a foreign language to you (Chinese or Russian) is not a foreign language to a Chinese or a Russian. Maybe English is a foreign language to them, or maybe the Chinese language is foreign to the Russian. The point of this is I recommend that if you use sounds from a language, pick a language that you don't know, don't speak and don't understand. >I personally think that knowing what a chant means ADDS to it's value rather then taking away. I believe that is true for you, but I do not agree. The perspective on this all depends on WHY you are chanting. I can only tell you why I chant (which I used to do, but now don't do very often). I chant for the same reason I sit zazen: to experience Buddha Mind. To experience Buddha Mind I do not need to ADD anything, in fact I need to SUBTRACT. I need to CEASE (subtract) all my illusions* of DUALITY, which includes the duality of VALUE/NO-VALUE and most importantly the duality of SELF/OTHER. These illusions are the products of my RATIONAL MIND, so I need to STOP its activities. If I am THINKING about what I am chanting then I am exercising my rational mind and will not be able to cease my dualistic illusions - and not be able to experience Buddha Mind. This is why I chant and this is why I believe you should chant sounds with no meaning (to you). Jody: Why do you chant or want to chant? What have you chosen to chant, and why? Thanks...Bill! * You actually only have to cease attachment to illusions, not illusions themselves; but that is just a further complexity that doesn't affect this discussion at this point. __ NOD32 3390 (20080826) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Bill, Some good points. One comment. Actually I think the idea of chanting even if the words are in your language is to repeat something so many times that its rational meaning disappears, one stops thinking about the meaning, and only the sounds remain, so that the intention is as you suggest to subtract rational thought from consciousness. So I don't see any real disagreement between your and Jody's approach. As you say it is whatever works. Edgar On Aug 26, 2008, at 11:19 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jody, Thanks for your post. It gives me the opportunity to better explain my perspective on chanting. Jody wrote: >You described that chanting should be sounds with no meaning or chants from other languages that we don't understand. I did recommend this and stand by that recommendation. >But if the chants are in foreign languages, then the people who speak those languages UNDERSTAND what the chants mean. I think this is just a misunderstanding of what I meant. I used 'foreign' is a relative term, not an absolute term. In other words, what is a foreign language to you (Chinese or Russian) is not a foreign language to a Chinese or a Russian. Maybe English is a foreign language to them, or maybe the Chinese language is foreign to the Russian. The point of this is I recommend that if you use sounds from a language, pick a language that you don't know, don't speak and don't understand. >I personally think that knowing what a chant means ADDS to it's value rather then taking away. I believe that is true for you, but I do not agree. The perspective on this all depends on WHY you are chanting. I can only tell you why I chant (which I used to do, but now don't do very often). I chant for the same reason I sit zazen: to experience Buddha Mind. To experience Buddha Mind I do not need to ADD anything, in fact I need to SUBTRACT. I need to CEASE (subtract) all my illusions* of DUALITY, which includes the duality of VALUE/NO-VALUE and most importantly the duality of SELF/OTHER. These illusions are the products of my RATIONAL MIND, so I need to STOP its activities. If I am THINKING about what I am chanting then I am exercising my rational mind and will not be able to cease my dualistic illusions - and not be able to experience Buddha Mind. This is why I chant and this is why I believe you should chant sounds with no meaning (to you). Jody: Why do you chant or want to chant? What have you chosen to chant, and why? Thanks...Bill! * You actually only have to cease attachment to illusions, not illusions themselves; but that is just a further complexity that doesn't affect this discussion at this point.
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, Thanks for your post. It gives me the opportunity to better explain my perspective on chanting. Jody wrote: >You described that chanting should be sounds with no meaning or chants from other languages that we don't understand. I did recommend this and stand by that recommendation. >But if the chants are in foreign languages, then the people who speak those languages UNDERSTAND what the chants mean. I think this is just a misunderstanding of what I meant. I used 'foreign' is a relative term, not an absolute term. In other words, what is a foreign language to you (Chinese or Russian) is not a foreign language to a Chinese or a Russian. Maybe English is a foreign language to them, or maybe the Chinese language is foreign to the Russian. The point of this is I recommend that if you use sounds from a language, pick a language that you don't know, don't speak and don't understand. >I personally think that knowing what a chant means ADDS to it's value rather then taking away. I believe that is true for you, but I do not agree. The perspective on this all depends on WHY you are chanting. I can only tell you why I chant (which I used to do, but now don't do very often). I chant for the same reason I sit zazen: to experience Buddha Mind. To experience Buddha Mind I do not need to ADD anything, in fact I need to SUBTRACT. I need to CEASE (subtract) all my illusions* of DUALITY, which includes the duality of VALUE/NO-VALUE and most importantly the duality of SELF/OTHER. These illusions are the products of my RATIONAL MIND, so I need to STOP its activities. If I am THINKING about what I am chanting then I am exercising my rational mind and will not be able to cease my dualistic illusions - and not be able to experience Buddha Mind. This is why I chant and this is why I believe you should chant sounds with no meaning (to you). Jody: Why do you chant or want to chant? What have you chosen to chant, and why? Thanks...Bill! * You actually only have to cease attachment to illusions, not illusions themselves; but that is just a further complexity that doesn't affect this discussion at this point. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Bill, You described that chanting should be sounds with no meaning or chants from other languages that we don't understand. But if the chants are in foreign languages, then the people who speak those languages UNDERSTAND what the chants mean. I personally think that knowing what a chant means ADDS to it's value rather then taking away. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Bill, Thank you. Al Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Al et al,
I've been BOTHERED ever since I sent the attached post because of my bad
advice on chanting.
I didnt think about it properly and responded more to be consistent with
the previous postings rather than specifically on chanting.
IN MY OPINION
The 4 Bodhisattvas vows are good for vowing: for sharpening your focus,
grounding you, refreshing your resolve and reminding you of your connection
with the patriarchs - but they are not good for chanting.
Zen practice leads you to freedom from attachments. The biggest of all
attachments is the attachment to illusions. The key illusion is the
illusion of self, and the biggest supporting mechanism for the illusion of
self is rational, dualistic thinking. To be free from attachments you must
be free from illusions. To be free from illusions you must quit making the
concept of self by ceasing your dualistic thinking.
Zazen (shikantaza - clear mind) is (in my opinion) the best way to do this.
There are many other ways (maybe an infinite number of ways), however, and
chanting is one of them. Koans are another.
In order to help cease your dualistic thinking the chant (in my opinion)
should be something that does not carry any 'meaning' for you - nothing
which you could be tempted to think about. One way to do this is to choose
a chant in a foreign language you don't know, or even nonsense syllables
that do not mean anything at all.
I don't chant often, but when I do I use Sanskrit words which are in the
final passage of the Heart Sutra:
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha ('gate' is pronounced
'gah-tay')
Although I know generally what this translates to in English, I don't think
about that. I like this one because it is long enough that I can chant in
one, long exhale without having to repeat it multiple times, although I
don't think repeating a short syllable would necessarily be less effective.
Another chant that is commonly used in zen koan study is 'Mu'. The student
is given the koan and encouraged to 'sit with Mu, become Mu'. At first the
student might try to 'figure out' or understand or 'solve' the koan with
their rational mind. When they can't (because their teacher will reject all
those types of answers), they finally give up and then maybe will shut down
their rational mind. To assist in that they are sometimes encouraged to
just sit and chant loudly (bellow, really) the syllable 'Mu' over and over
again. If this technique is used then Mu becomes like a chant.
A good example of a chant traditionally used by non-zen segments of
modern-day Western culture are the Catholic Hail Mary and Lord's Prayer.
When either of these are repeated over and over and over, they become
'meaningless'. By that I mean the mind becomes 'bored' with them and no
longer processes the sounds as carrying a meaningful message. Then they are
(in my opinion) a true chant.
Chant's don't have to be verbally expressed, they can just be thought. I
think this is less effective because if you verbally express the chant it
helps with your exhaling, and proper breathing is very important to zazen.
Okay, now I feel I've more fully addressed chanting, from my perspective.
No longer bothered!
...Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Al,
Either you're getting better concealing your sarcasm or this last post was
really sincere.
Since I prefer sincerity to sarcasm I'll assume it is sincere; and in that
case I have some changes to make to my last post:
- change 'command' to 'invite'
- change '100 Bodhisattva Vows and 500 bows' to 'just sit'
- change 'send a small donation to PayPal' to 'post more frequently'
- change 'Your Personal Guru' to 'Your friend'
Don't get me wrong, I do like sarcasm at times and think yours in some of
the best. Don't abandon it altogether. Use it when you think it's called
for, like when we're getting too pompous and babbling on about things which
really don't make a difference - which is probably most of the time.
If you really want something to chant, try the 4 Bodhisattva vows. A
Bodhisattva is an enlightened being who has elected to forgo Nirvana in
order to stay in the world to help others become enlightened. I'm reminded
of these vows every time I fly and the uniformed Bodhisattva's who attend
the flight remind me to 'remember to put on your own oxygen mask before
attempting to help those around you'. This is a clear reference to Hinayana
Buddhism (putting on your own oxygen mask first), and then Mahayana Buddhism
(then help others). Getting off the plane is going to Nirvana. Ex
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Al, Either you're getting better concealing your sarcasm or this last post was really sincere. Since I prefer sincerity to sarcasm I'll assume it is sincere; and in that case I have some changes to make to my last post: - change 'command' to 'invite' - change '100 Bodhisattva Vows and 500 bows' to 'just sit' - change 'send a small donation to PayPal' to 'post more frequently' - change 'Your Personal Guru' to 'Your friend' Don't get me wrong, I do like sarcasm at times and think yours in some of the best. Don't abandon it altogether. Use it when you think it's called for, like when we're getting too pompous and babbling on about things which really don't make a difference - which is probably most of the time. If you really want something to chant, try the 4 Bodhisattva vows. A Bodhisattva is an enlightened being who has elected to forgo Nirvana in order to stay in the world to help others become enlightened. I'm reminded of these vows every time I fly and the uniformed Bodhisattva's who attend the flight remind me to 'remember to put on your own oxygen mask before attempting to help those around you'. This is a clear reference to Hinayana Buddhism (putting on your own oxygen mask first), and then Mahayana Buddhism (then help others). Getting off the plane is going to Nirvana. Extending this analogy, zen is realizing that after all, one place is not any better than another; THERE is not better than HERE, and in fact there is no HERE/THERE duality - so there is no need to be on the plane in the first place. Here are the 4 Bodhisattva vows I know: - Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them. - Desires are inexhaustible, I vow to put an end to them. - Dharmas are boundless, I vow to master them. - The Buddha way in unsurpassable, I vow to attain it. ...or something like these. There are many different translations. Google 'bodhisattva vows' or check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vows. This version is the one I learned, but it might not be the best one since I've chanted at the end of every one of my zazen sessions for over 40 years and I'm still not a Bodhisattva! Still sitting and chanting, and happily hyperventilating oxygen - Your Friend...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:17 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I command you to chant 100 Bodhisattva Vows and do 500 bows. > I am going to do that. What is a good vow to chant? By the way Bill, if it was not for you and a couple of other folks (but mostly you), I would have given up on this group a long time ago. Hopeful to get back into zazen and then I can give up on this group for a good reason. __ NOD32 3367 (20080819) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hi Al, If you get back into Zazen, you would realize that this group is your duty to keep and support. No matter what. sorry :-) Al wrote: > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I command you to chant 100 Bodhisattva Vows and > do 500 bows. > > > > I am going to do that. What is a good vow to chant? By the way Bill, > if it was not for you and a couple of other folks (but mostly you), I > would have given up on this group a long time ago. > > Hopeful to get back into zazen and then I can give up on this group > for a good reason. > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I command you to chant 100 Bodhisattva Vows and do 500 bows. > I am going to do that. What is a good vow to chant? By the way Bill, if it was not for you and a couple of other folks (but mostly you), I would have given up on this group a long time ago. Hopeful to get back into zazen and then I can give up on this group for a good reason. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Al, In penance for this very well-constructed piece of sarcasm, I command you to chant 100 Bodhisattva Vows and do 500 bows. OR, you can just send a small donation (anything over $100) to my PayPal account. Your Personal Guru...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fitness63 Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:59 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character From: Edgar Owen> If it happens again I hope that members will be able to distinguish my real posts from the hacker's simply by the low spiritual level and hostility of his posts. > Yes it is very clear to me that you are flying high at another level of spirituality from which we can all only hope to learn. Please keep posting more messages explaining this difference, as I find it very illuminating. I do not practice near a zendo and I must rely on the spiritual illumination that I can receive from the many kind souls like you who share your insights with others on this forum. You can also learn a lot from Bill, I consider him to be my personal guru. humbly yours, Al __ NOD32 3367 (20080819) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, I certainly hope so. Thanks for your understanding. Best, Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 2:24 PM, Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: Hello Edgar, I think we will all be curious to see what the intruder does next. Maybe he will realize he can't shake us up and he will go find other forms of entertainment. JODY
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Edgar, I think we will all be curious to see what the intruder does next. Maybe he will realize he can't shake us up and he will go find other forms of entertainment. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
It is. I do not disagree. I rely on the internet for my spiritual instruction, so I am not joking. - Original Message - From: Edgar Owen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Test of Character Al, I agree that Bill seems to understand Zen quite well. As you can see from our posts we agree on most points we have discussed. I wasn't referring to my spiritual state, just the low and hostile state of the hacker who used my name. That should be quite obvious to all. Best, Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Fitness63 wrote: From: Edgar Owen> If it happens again I hope that members will be able to distinguish my real posts from the hacker's simply by the low spiritual level and hostility of his posts. > Yes it is very clear to me that you are flying high at another level of spirituality from which we can all only hope to learn. Please keep posting more messages explaining this difference, as I find it very illuminating. I do not practice near a zendo and I must rely on the spiritual illumination that I can receive from the many kind souls like you who share your insights with others on this forum. You can also learn a lot from Bill, I consider him to be my personal guru. humbly yours, Al
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Al, I agree that Bill seems to understand Zen quite well. As you can see from our posts we agree on most points we have discussed. I wasn't referring to my spiritual state, just the low and hostile state of the hacker who used my name. That should be quite obvious to all. Best, Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Fitness63 wrote: From: Edgar Owen> If it happens again I hope that members will be able to distinguish my real posts from the hacker's simply by the low spiritual level and hostility of his posts. > Yes it is very clear to me that you are flying high at another level of spirituality from which we can all only hope to learn. Please keep posting more messages explaining this difference, as I find it very illuminating. I do not practice near a zendo and I must rely on the spiritual illumination that I can receive from the many kind souls like you who share your insights with others on this forum. You can also learn a lot from Bill, I consider him to be my personal guru. humbly yours, Al
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
From: Edgar Owen> If it happens again I hope that members will be able to distinguish my real posts from the hacker's simply by the low spiritual level and hostility of his posts. > Yes it is very clear to me that you are flying high at another level of spirituality from which we can all only hope to learn. Please keep posting more messages explaining this difference, as I find it very illuminating. I do not practice near a zendo and I must rely on the spiritual illumination that I can receive from the many kind souls like you who share your insights with others on this forum. You can also learn a lot from Bill, I consider him to be my personal guru. humbly yours, Al Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, Thanks for the acknowledgement. That someone would do that just after I joined the group is quite annoying - a real test of my Zen! If it happens again I hope that members will be able to distinguish my real posts from the hacker's simply by the low spiritual level and hostility of his posts. One can also tell by looking at the long headers of the posts. By doing so it is easy to tell mine and his originate from different ISPs. Sorry for the confusion the hacker has caused. Hopefully he will realize his path is unlikely to lead to enlightenment. Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:54 AM, Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: Hello Edgar, If you didn't post the message then I am sorry I responded. JODY
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Edgar, If you didn't post the message then I am sorry I responded. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
MEMBERS, The post below is NOT from me. Someone has hacked my email address to post this. If there is a moderator or group owner I would urge him to fix this problem. I do not agree with the post below and I did not send it. Read my posts, you will see the one below is not mine. Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:27 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: They are people just like you. From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 2008/08/15 Fri PM 03:01:35 CDT To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Test of Character I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Jody, and other MEMBERS, The post below is NOT from me. Someone has hacked my email address to post this. If there is a moderator or group owner I would urge him to fix this problem. I do not agree with the post below and I did not send it. Read my posts, you will see the one below is not mine. This is becoming very annoying that people think I wrote that post. Many have attacked the post and rightfully so. It is not mine and I completely disagree with its message. Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:24 AM, Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: Hello Edgar, People are people. why do they need all these labels? OK, you want labels? I am a blind Republican stay at home mom who practices judo and plays the bagpipes. Is that eccentric enough for you or am I just a freak? JODY
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Bill, and other members, The post below is NOT from me. Someone has hacked my email address to post this. If there is a moderator or group owner I would urge him to fix this problem. I do not agree with the post below and I did not send it. Read my posts, you will see the one below is not mine. Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:49 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Edgar, What kind of people join zen groups? Just look into the mirror! Welcome to this zen group. I think you'll fit right in. I don't know if the list in your first paragraph is accurate or not. Actually the list just sounds like 'regular folks' to me. I can say that I do not belong, nor care to belong, to any of the groups you mention in your second paragraph. ...Bill! P.S. Edgar, welcome to the zen forum! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:02 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Test of Character I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar __ NOD32 3360 (20080815) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
MEMBERS, The post below is NOT from me. Someone has hacked my email address to post this. If there is a moderator or group owner I would urge him to fix this problem. I do not agree with the post below and I did not send it. Read my other posts, you will see the one below is not mine. Edgar On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:25 AM, Stanimir wrote: Dear Edgar, You use all bunch of words to describe the peoples who visit this group. For me and fro anyone who try to learn zen they are. just peoples. If you need more words to describe them you need to learn more about zen or just to leave this group if you dont like it. Peace Stanimir - Original Message From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 15 August, 2008 9:01:35 PM Subject: [Zen] Test of Character I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar Send instant messages to your online friends http:// uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
They are people just like you. From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 2008/08/15 Fri PM 03:01:35 CDT To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Test of Character I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
MEMBERS, The post below is NOT from me. Someone has hacked my email address to post this. If there is a moderator or group owner I would urge him to fix this problem. I do not agree with the post below and I did not send it. Read my posts, you will see the one below is not mine. Edgar On Aug 15, 2008, at 4:01 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Hello Edgar, People are people. why do they need all these labels? OK, you want labels? I am a blind Republican stay at home mom who practices judo and plays the bagpipes. Is that eccentric enough for you or am I just a freak? JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Test of Character
Edgar, What kind of people join zen groups? Just look into the mirror! Welcome to this zen group. I think you'll fit right in. I don't know if the list in your first paragraph is accurate or not. Actually the list just sounds like 'regular folks' to me. I can say that I do not belong, nor care to belong, to any of the groups you mention in your second paragraph. ...Bill! P.S. Edgar, welcome to the zen forum! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:02 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Test of Character I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar __ NOD32 3360 (20080815) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Test of Character
Dear Edgar, You use all bunch of words to describe the peoples who visit this group. For me and fro anyone who try to learn zen they are. just peoples. If you need more words to describe them you need to learn more about zen or just to leave this group if you dont like it. Peace Stanimir - Original Message From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 15 August, 2008 9:01:35 PM Subject: [Zen] Test of Character I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[Zen] Test of Character
I have often wondered what kind of people join a Zen group. I have to ask myself, are these mostly the mentally disturbed, drug addicts, alcholics, homosexuals, the kind of folks that feel dissociated from society, the dregs of the earth, the leftovers, the angry, the free-thinkers, the people of loose morals, bisexuals, liberals, etc.? Am I right? Are there any conservatives in this group? Any members of the John Birch Society? Daughters of the American Revolution? Knights of Pythias? Probably not here. Sorry for the OT, Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
