[ZION] Worth reiterating...
I believe President Hinkley's remarks on this issue succinctly and precisely outline the present direction of church policy on the marriage controversy. The church is actively pursuing every means to defend traditional marriage, including representation in the courts and support for individual and group efforts to oppose the legalization of same-sex marriage. It would seem that we are not justified in failing to pursue these efforts, regardless of our regard for the chance of success or failure. President Hinckley explains our rationale for such efforts -- God-sanctioned marriage between a man and a woman has been the basis of civilization for thousands of years. There is no justification to redefine what marriage is. Such is not our right, and those who try will find themselves answerable to God. Some portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are _compelled_ by our doctrine to speak out... ...I commend those of our membership who have voluntarily joined with other like-minded people to defend the sanctity of traditional marriage. (Gordon B. Hinckley, Why We Do Some of the Things We Do, Ensign, Nov. 1999) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Testing legality
In my view, the restoration has a poor record of success when it comes to testing the laws of the land in court. For more than 150 years it has been a dismal and discouraging effort for the saints of God to importune the courts for redress. In legal matters regarding everything from trivial personal harassment lawsuits against Joseph Smith, on up to the testing of the constitutionality of federal anti-polygamy laws, the church has waged and consistently lost many important legal battles through the courts at every level. Having personally sustained my own significant trauma at the handling of the courts, I shrink from the very suggestion that we might obtain any kind of satisfying judgement in the several legal matters currently concerning the general body of the church. But, notwithstanding my own reticence, and even in the face of confusion within the ranks regarding these matters, we are clearly obligated to follow the consistent counsel of the brethren in this matter. The saints have always been instructed to make every effort to work within the law. We believe in honoring and sustaining the law of the land. In many instances throughout church history, church members have been horribly abused at the hands of the system which should have protected them. Yet they always continued to press for justice and sound judgement. I can see no other alternative. In the case of the assault on marriage laws, I honestly believe it may be a futile effort. But we ought to follow the example set by our stalwart predecessors, in exhausting every recourse to obtain legal settlement of the current issues. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] another approach
Bob, I do see your point about constitutionality. It is an interesting idea. If I understand correctly, you are imagining what would result if we begin from an axiomatic assumption that church doctrines reflect the true constitutional ideal, and we might use this standard for judging whether laws are constitutionally sound. I think your suggestion basically meshes with my own thinking on such matters. It is far more important to me to consider the counsel of prophets of God, in deliberating on of matters of justice. It truly seems like things would be a lot different if there were enough judges who applied this kind of vision and discernment. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron Scott wrote: -- Thus sayeth the self-appointed Judge in Israel. --- Actually, in the church our judges are appointed by inspiration from God. They are not self-appointed nor is their administration a form of political spoils for the party in power. Just in case you did not realize this. Ron: --- By the way, who's pushing for gay rights here? I've seen a few here calling for equal treatment under the law for all, which is something guaranteed by our divinely inspired constitution. --- Our US constitution is designed to promote a common level of morality. It was not intended to protect evil behavior, nor to shelter those who advocate such behavior. As far as it serves those evil purposes today, it has become an instrument as twisted and evil in intent as the wicked minds of those who so pervert the moral basis for our laws. Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for legitimate and traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution envisions the degraded definition of marriage that encompasses any particular union of convenience, affection, devotion, or animal attraction. There exists a very pragmatic and functional rationale for promoting traditional marriage in the body of law. Attempting to expand the definition of marriage to include perverted sexual behavior threatens the benefit we incur from that rational basis. And of course, it plainly proposes to lend legitimacy to immorality, which contradicts the very purpose of all laws. No amount of sophistry can cancel the clear message our church leaders have delivered on this matter. They are consistent and unanimous in raising the level of concern regarding the threat to our society. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] General Conference
Session of the general conferences of the church have become one of the greatest recurring events in my life. I look forward with great anticipation to hearing addresses from the brethren and sisters the Lord has called to lead us. In the best of times, thier counsel is uplifting and adds to my joy. In times of trial and challenge, their words inspire and add hope. There will be much to ponder, following this next conference session. Those with ears to hear will be rewarded and instructed. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Judging
This controversy about judgement is a straw man that is raised regularly. It usually comes up because someone has suggested a context in which we clearly ought to pass some kind of judgement. The always-ironic response from so many is so consistently and so stupidly predictable -- Oh, but you're being judgemental -- you dare not presume to judge! Judging is _bad_. The incipient irony is alway so deliciously bitter-sweet. :- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron Scott wrote: --- Sophistry? I beg your pardon. Has the Church indicated that people who believe the courts should decide the matter, as mandated by the divinely-inspired constitution, are out of step with the church and its teachings? Please point me to the statement. --- Others with better sense than me have identified the way you like to argue as sophistry -- I did not coin the expression. I can seldom discern from your rhetoric exactly where you stand with regard to anything divinely inspired. Whether you are out of step is up to you, but when you seem to be advocating things that are clearly wrong, I feel prompted to either quit reading your comments, or respond when they seem to need correction. As I have observed in previous threads, you often seem to favor a focus on side issues and exceptions, as if they were the most important things. Perhaps these positions you seem to admire make for fine arguments, but they do not generally seem to represent the policy or position taught by the church. I cannot believe you when ask for statements that are indicative of current church policy. You seem less interested in reading them than in challenging ideas that do not fit your mindset. Nonetheless, for the sake of discussion, I am copying a few interesting and authoritative comments. Perhaps you'd care to substantiate your arguments with supporting material from church leaders and church publications. -- The Church in Hawaiiwith the support of the Roman Catholic Church in the statehas taken legal action to support traditional marriage and prevent state sanctioning of homosexual and lesbian marriages. The Church's action, taken Feb. 23, is a request to the Circuit Court of Hawaii for permission to intervene in opposition to an attempt by three same-gender couples seeking the right to have a legal marriage. A lawsuit, Baehr v. Lewin, was originally thrown out by the trial court. The couples appealed, and the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that state marriage law discriminates on the basis of sex unless there is a compelling state interest to deny marriage licenses to homosexual and lesbian couples. The Supreme Court sent the case back to the Circuit Court to make that determination. Under Hawaii law, an entity may intervene in a legal action by proving that it has substantial interests in the outcome of the case. The trial is expected to be held in September. The action by the Church supports the state of Hawaii in seeking to preserve its law against homosexual and lesbian marriages. If state law is overturned on this matter, Hawaii would be the first state in the nation in which that happened. Donald L. Hallstrom, regional representative in the Oahu Hawaii North Region, announced the Church's action at a news conference on the day the request was filed with the court. He was joined by the Rev. Marc R. Alexander, diocesan theologian for the Hawaii Catholic Conference; Napua Baker, spokeswoman for the Church in Hawaii; and James M. Sattler, the attorney who is representing the Church in the case. Our purpose and our intention is to be of help and assistance to the attorney general in defending the existing Hawaii law respecting marriage, attorney Sattler said, and our papers are all designed to put forth the facts and the arguments as to why we should be allowed to become parties to the case on the same side as the state and to seek to uphold the existing law. Elder Hallstrom said the news conference was not a forum to attack homosexuals or lesbians. The position of the Church . . . on homosexuality is a matter of record. We are opposed to it on moral grounds. Nevertheless, the Church has not attempted to oppose basic civil rights for homosexuals or any other group. This is not our work nor our focus. He said the Church believes in sexual abstinence before marriage and total fidelity after marriage, and we believe marriage should be between a man and a woman only. Elder Hallstrom said legalizing same-sex marriage goes far beyond basic rights for any individual or group. There are times when certain moral issues become so compelling that churches have a duty to make their feelings known, he added. In rare cases, they may need to pursue their own constitutional rights to resist something they feel poses a serious threat to the moral fabric of society. We have reached such a situation in Hawaii. The Church is resisting this major change in the law, he said, because we feel it represents a threat to families, to our children, and to our way of life in Hawaii. He affirmed that the action was taken in consultation with Church headquarters in Salt Lake City. While this initiative is our own, we assure you that we have the approval and support of the Church . . . in the action we are taking. The Rev. Alexander said the Roman Catholic Church in Hawaii joins the LDS Church in opposing legalization of homosexual marriages. The
[ZION] A few more representative quotes...
The ultimate purpose of the adversary, who has great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time, is to disrupt, disturb, and destroy the home and the family. Like a ship without a rudder, without a compass, we drift from the family values which have anchored us in the past. Now we are caught in a current so strong that unless we correct our course, civilization as we know it will surely be wrecked to pieces. Moral values are being neglected and prayer expelled from public schools on the pretext that moral teaching belongs to religion. At the same time, atheism, the secular religion, is admitted to class, and our youngsters are proselyted to a conduct without morality. World leaders and court judges agree that the family must endure if we are to survive. At the same time, they use the words freedom and choice as tools to pry apart the safeguards of the past and loosen up the laws on marriage, abortion, and gender. In so doing, they promote the very things which threaten the family. (Boyd K. Packer, The Father and the Family, Ensign, May 1994) -- We live in a day when there are many political, legal, and social pressures for changes that confuse gender and homogenize the differences between men and women. Our eternal perspective sets us against changes that alter those separate duties and privileges of men and women that are essential to accomplish the great plan of happiness. (Dallin H. Oaks, The Great Plan of Happiness, General Conference address, 3 Oct 1993.) -- There are those who would have us believe in the validity of what they choose to call same-sex marriage. Our hearts reach out to those who struggle with feelings of affinity for the same gender. We remember you before the Lord, we sympathize with you, we regard you as our brothers and our sisters. However, we cannot condone immoral practices on your part any more than we can condone immoral practices on the part of others With so much of sophistry that is passed off as truth, with so much of deception concerning standards and values, with so much of allurement and enticement to take on the slow stain of the world, we have felt to warn and forewarn. In furtherance of this we of the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles now issue a proclamation to the Church and to the world as a declaration and reaffirmation of standards, doctrines, and practices relative to the family which the prophets, seers, and revelators of this church have repeatedly stated throughout its history We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society. (Gordon B. Hinckley, Stand Strong against the Wiles of the World, Ensign, Nov. 1995) -- Every Latter-day Saint knows that God has forbidden all sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage. Most are also aware of the Saviors teaching that it is sinful for a man to look upon and lust after a woman (see Matt. 5:28; DC 42:23; DC 63:16). Attraction between man and woman was instilled by the Creator to ensure the perpetuation of mortal life and to draw husband and wife together in the family setting he prescribed for the accomplishment of his purposes, including the raising of children. In contrast, deviations from Gods commandments in the use of procreative powers are grave sins. President Joseph F. Smith taught: The Lord drew boundary lines to define acceptable limits of tolerance. Danger rises when those divine limits are disobeyed. Just as parents teach little children not to run and play in the street, the Savior taught us that we need not tolerate evil. Jesus went into the temple of God, and and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers. Though He loved the sinner, the Lord said that He cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. His Apostle Paul specified some of those sins in a letter to the Galatians. The list included adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. To Pauls list I might add the regrettable attitudes of bigotry, hypocrisy, and prejudice. These were also decried in 1834 by early Church leaders who foresaw the eventual rise of this church amid the frowns of bigots and the calumny of hypocrites. The Prophet Joseph Smith prayed that prejudices may give way before the truth. Hatred stirs up strife and digs beneath the dignity of mature men and
[ZION] Gas pains
Gas prices have now reached record high levels in the US. Over $2 per gallon in some areas. Isn't it a good thing we mounted such an effective imperialistic war against the Iraqis, just so we could steal away their oil? I can imagine what the prices would be otherwise. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Gay art exhibit
Deseret Morning News, Wednesday, March 10, 2004 Gay art exhibit raises ire at SLCC Diversity Week show is moved away from entrance foyer By Doug Smeath Deseret Morning News A visual art exhibit at Salt Lake Community College was moved Tuesday after a group of photographs offended several students who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The exhibit, part of SLCC's Diversity Week, raised the ire of students who disapproved of depictions of two men dressed as LDS missionaries in various stages of undress. The photographs suggested a homosexual relationship between the two men. There was no nudity in any of the photos. The art show is sponsored by Coloring Outside the Lines, a club for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and heterosexual students. It was originally in a foyer near the entrance of the South City Campus' main building, 1575 S. State. But after a group of students had some concerns with the art, the exhibit was moved to the Student Services Lounge, which is in the same building, said Joy Tlou, SLCC's director of public relations. MaryEtta Chase, an assistant adviser to the club, said she wanted to keep the exhibit where it would be visible, but she was concerned angry students would somehow damage the art if it stayed where it was. Tlou described the decision to move the exhibit as the result of a conversation in which both sides were able to express their opinions and work out a compromise. Colleges and universities are traditionally a place where ideas meet, he said. The students who were voicing the dissent were doing so in a very civil way. But Kathryn Heaston, a student who is not affiliated with Coloring Outside the Lines but said she witnessed the disagreement and got involved, said the argument was a little more heated than that. He (one of the offended students) got up in my face and was like, 'What do you know about the Savior?' said Heaston, who supports the club and its display. Joseph Freed, one of the students who complained about the photos, told KSL-TV he was exercising his right to express his opinion. It offends me and what I believe in, he said. Campus police officers were called to the site of the argument, but no one was cited. The artist, Don Farmer, stopped by the school to see the exhibit Tuesday morning. When he arrived, he found students arguing about his photos. He is not a student at SLCC; he graduated from Westminster College with a degree in art. But a club adviser asked him the night before the exhibit's opening to submit pieces for the show. I didn't think it would be in the lobby, Farmer said. Had I known (the photos would spark controversy), I probably would have asked for a warning in front of the exhibit, telling potential viewers what to expect. Farmer said the photos were part of his senior project at Westminster. When they were displayed there, a similar controversy erupted, resulting in a lawsuit against the school. However, Farmer said, the student who filed the suit later dropped it after she spoke with Farmer and learned of his intentions. Farmer said the photos were not meant to be hateful or hurtful but were instead meant to start dialogue. He set out to depict the struggles of people trying to juxtapose their faith with their sexuality. He said he was an active LDS Church member when he displayed the photos at Westminster, and his bishopric was understanding about his intentions. He is no longer actively LDS, he said. He said the men shown in the photos are both former LDS missionaries who were in a relationship. Art is scary, he said. Art is something that challenges. I was scared of the images. . . . I learned that there was something that these images evoked. For some viewers, it was increased understanding; others were offended but wanted to understand the reasoning behind the photos, he said. Farmer said he encountered a similar response at SLCC on Tuesday. The scene was initially confrontational, he said, but when students realized Farmer was the artist, they became genuinely interested in understanding what Farmer was saying with his art. Diversity Week continues at SLCC, including a panel today at the South City Campus on transgenderism and a debate Friday at the Redwood Campus on the issue of gay marriage. The week will wrap up with Saturday's Straight Over the Rainbow Diversity Dance at the Redwood Campus. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email
[ZION] Starship troopers
They've landed at Berkeley, CA. http://www.me.berkeley.edu/hel/bleex.htm // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
Redefining things is exactly what this problem does not need. We have arrived at the present situation because a very few vocal malcontents decided that definitions that successfuly accomodated the cultural interests of the civil majority for the past ten centuries now suddenly don't cater to their particular tastes, and therefore must be discarded. Blackstone's Commentaries effectively outlines the philosophy and basis for English common law from seventeenth and eighteenth century England, which also served as the foundational basis for establishing eighteenth century colonial laws in the US. Where we have departed from this historic common-sense approach in response to demands of a few vocal dissidents, the application of sound legal principles has suffered. But it seems things have never been so badly off the track as they are now. We now have many situations where the purported legal right to moral depravity overrules decency and common sense. The inmates have truly taken over the asylum. The solution is to restore and respect the traditional definitions that have served the interests of the majority for hundreds of years, not to invent new ones that attempt to serve the demands of a miserable few. This will always be a futile pursuit. In the case of those who wish to engage in homosexual behavior, it is obvious that being married will never grant them what they crave. As Alma asserts, wickedness never was happiness. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Taxes
One of John Kerry's principal campaign issues is taxes. He promises to rescind the recent tax cuts implemented by the Bush administration. In the news coverage, it absolutely amazes me to notice the crowds cheering with enthusiasm when they hear a promise to raise their taxes. It has always surprised me that so many are willing to elect people who promise to take away their money and spend it for them. Of course, we know that liberal political leaders are always wiser than any of their constituents about how best to spend other people's money. As far as I can discern, none of the rhetoric on taxes, from either side of the aisle, has even a shred of credibility. Both leading candidates are wealthy beyond reason. Unlike the circumstances with most of us, it is obvious that not even taxes levied at the most extreme rate could ever do much to hurt their lavishly indulgent lifestyle. They pretend to emphathize with people of modest means, but in reality I believe they don't have a clue. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Paternalistic science
Recent reporting in JAMA turns science into a politically correct blunt instrument. Echoed in the news reports, it reads something like Obesity is an epidemic, we're eating ourselves to death. Reportedly, being too fat is now the number two cause of death in the US, trailing only tobacco. In fact, the JAMA study returns something similar to the directed surveys conducted by self-interested commercial groups in order to promote their doctrine. It is difficult for me to discern exactly what the medical establishment hopes to accomplish here, but the smell of cooked results is too strong to avoid. The findings of the survey were arrived at by polling cause of death reports. Anything remotely related to various politically correct categories is lumped together. Thus, heart disease is magically transformed into all others that result from poor diet and exercise as a cause of death. Everything in this category is automatically deemed to be associated with obesity or sedentary lifestyle, thus returning the desired epidemic. While this is poor science and poor journalism, perhaps it is better to lie about the survey in order to scare a few fat folks into following the AMA dietary and lifestyle recommendations. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Retroactive laws
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- I don't see how a law passed in the 21st century could have any effect on your 19th century ancestors. Laws aren't retroactive. --- It seldom makes any sense that they would be, but as I understand it, legal instruments are sometimes made to be retroactive, nunc pro tunc. This generally happens when the instrument is amended some time after a judgement. Since such things are just a sort of fiction that we collectively respect, there is no rational obstacle standing in the way of such an arbitrary rule. In any case I cannot imagine how retroactive marriage rules would inconvenience any of my plurally married ancestors. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] An Answer to the World - Divorce and Single Parent Children
Maggie Gallagher and Judith Wallerstien discuss social problems stemming from contemporary divorce practices. Many insightful comments. http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9708/gallagher.html // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] An Answer to the World - Divorce and Single Parent Children
Maggie Gallagher: By gutting the marital contract, no-fault divorce has transformed what it means to get married. The state will no longer enforce permanent legal commitments to a spouse. Formally, at least, no-fault divorce thus demotes marriage from a binding relation into something best described as cohabitation with insurance benefits. What have we gotten in exchange for this sweeping abandonment of the idea that marriage is a public, legal commitment, and not merely a private exchange of sentimental wishes? When in the 1970s and early 1980s no-fault divorce swept through state legislatures, its advocates promised us two great benefits: (1) no-fault would reduce conflict, as spouses would no longer be forced to assign legal blame for the marriages end, and (2) no-fault would enhance respect for the law, as couples longing for a divorce would no longer have to commit perjury, lodge false accusations of adultery, to get one. In this sense, as Herbert Jacob points out in his excellent history, Silent Revolution, no-fault divorce was the brainchild of elites who consistently portrayed it as a mere technical adjustment to the law, a minor change that would in no way endanger marriage or encourage divorce, but merely close the gap between the law in theory and the law as it was actually practiced. In reality no-fault divorce laws did something decidedly more revolutionary. Rather than transferring to the couple the right to decide when a divorce is justified, no-fault laws transferred that right to the individual. No-fault is thus something of a misnomer; a more accurate term would be unilateral divorce on demand. The idea that couples who wish to divorce should be able to do so without making false accusations is now uncontroversial. Even the most aggressive of the new divorce reforms to restore fault recently proposed in Michigan permits couples to dissolve their marriages quietly and amicably, by mutual consent. The idea that marriage is a covenant larger than the two people who make it has already been lost. What the current no-fault debate revolves around is the lesser question: Is marriage less than a legal contract between two people? Is the marriage contract enforceable, and if so how? When we marry, are we making a binding commitment or a fully revokable one (if revokable commitment is not an oxymoron)? If the latter, what is the difference, morally and legally, between getting married and living together? Why have a legal institution dedicated to making a public promise the law considers too burdensome to enforce? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] The Gospel according to PETA
http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?sid=79693nid=5 http://www.goveg.com/feat/a-latterday.html A new billboard depicting a PETA God, brandishing carrots, looms over the west side of Salt Lake City, commanding all faithful saints to become vegetarians. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] SLTrib
SUNDAY March 07, 2004 Gay marriage threatens the fundamental unit of society -- the family By Paul T. Mero Utah should support a federal constitutional amendment to recognize legal marriage as only between a man and a woman. But it should do so for the right reasons, understanding why it is needed, what it really means for the long term and just who will benefit. This is a very curious debate. Homosexual marriage is often portrayed as an assault against the family or as a struggle for human rights. In reality, it is more a testimony against failing families and broken homes. Clearly, a federal marriage amendment would prevent states from recognizing homosexual marriages. But it would not save our broken homes. Surely it would serve to remind us that a real mom and dad, together, still produce the best future for their children and our nation. But it would not do one thing to make a family better, let alone succeed. This point seems to be lost on many pro-family advocates. A federal marriage amendment is no panacea. Troubled families still would produce a truckload of personal and social dysfunction for their children, including oftentimes the same homosexuality that comes back to haunt so many of these parents. Laws do not make people good; they will not make promiscuous homosexuals more faithful, and they will not make bad parents into good ones. It helps to understand that, in legal terms, the family is prior to the state. The family created the state, not vice-versa. This is the perverse irony of the gay argument favoring marriage it requires the state to create it, unlike the natural family. We ask the state to sanction certain forms of marriage, not because the creation of the natural family depends on it, but because, as a matter of public policy, society seeks to maximize its futurity. State-sanctioned marriage is really, and only, about two things -- child-bearing and child-rearing -- two things, by the way, homosexuals do not do very well. All of this goes a long way to inform us about what adversarial forces really threaten the family. The family is the seed-bed of civilization. Discourage or destroy its natural functions and our future is in jeopardy. Take away its procreative powers, take away its nurturing elements, take away its autonomous functions, take away its pluralistic representation, and we will have threatened the family. The real threat of homosexual marriage is that it is the antithesis of authentic family. It pretends to give life and cannot. It pretends to nurture and does not. It pretends to seek autonomy but is ever dependent. It pretends to pluralism but only finds diversity. In other words, it pretends to civilization. It only plays house, and only then as the state allows it to. This is its threat; it does not form naturally. It is dependent upon the state for its organization. And that is the antithesis of freedom. A federal marriage amendment says nothing about homosexual relationships. They will continue unabated and as usual. A federal marriage amendment is primarily an expression in favor of enduring freedom. It is further recognition, and now it seems a necessary reminder, that the family is the fundamental unit of society. This is the real value of a federal marriage amendment. Serious pro-family advocates would do well to heed this lesson. Fighting to protect the family is more than a religious exercise, though it is that. We fight for the family because pluralistic, autonomous families create freedom. The family is the only natural institution that can honestly come by the title enemy of tyranny. - Paul T. Mero is president of the Sutherland Institute, a Utah-based conservative think tank. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] An Answer to the World - Chapter 3
Jonathan, I'm not sure I follow your first attempt at deconstruction. I am interested in the linkage you're making between the war and the counterculture. Although there seem to be some significant connections, I'm pretty certain that the slide toward this studied irresponsibility popularized as freedom started prior to the Vietnam war. I suppose there have always been people like this. In the decade following WWII, I think they were called beatniks. These folks had a hold on San Francisco long before Vietnam started. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Am I wasting my time?
Jonathan, I have not seen your comments about feminism yet. I suggest that this is something you might like to examine. I did not see mention of divorce as a social issue at all. In my thinking this is one of the primary indicators of the attack on families. Before 1960, divorce was uncommon. Today it affects nearly everyone, to our detriment. Did the hippie counterculture create this problem? I think not. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Martha Stewart Guilty
Who is Martha Stewart? Is she rich and famous? I thought she peddled linens for Sears, or something like that. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] US Senate considers amendment
Deseret Morning News, Thursday, March 04, 2004 Senate panel takes up marriage amendment By Lee Davidson Deseret Morning News WASHINGTON The Senate Judiciary Committee began emotional hearings Wednesday on a proposed constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage seen either as a last stand for traditional family values or an attempt to rob gays of civil rights. The session made for unusual alliances. Some liberals supported the amendment plan, others hated it. Likewise some conservatives praised it, and others abhorred it. Ditto for Democrats. And for Republicans. And for African-American leaders. And church groups. Among leaders of the chorus praising the proposed amendment is Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, the committee chairman although he also says alternatives besides a constitutional amendment should be considered too. It is now clearer to me than ever that courts are usurping the role of legislatures by imposing their own definitions of marriage on the people, and we must do something about this, Hatch said in a written statement. I think we need to consider amending the Constitution and said he would vote for a version favored by President Bush. The hearing comes as the highest court in Massachusetts ruled that state must allow gay marriage and as local officials in California, New York, New Mexico and Oregon have begun allowing them. Last week, Bush called for a constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman. As couples of both the married and same-sex variety crowded the hearing room with their children to serve as symbols of what is at stake, both sides made their arguments before the Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution. NAACP President Hilary Shelton opposed the proposed amendment, saying it would discriminate and restrict rather than expand and protect the rights for any and all persons. But the Rev. Richard Richardson of the Black Ministerial Alliance of Greater Boston said, As an African-American, I know something about discrimination. . . . The traditional institution of marriage is not discrimination. And I find it offensive to call it that. Richardson said traditional marriage is the best institution to ensure that children are raised by a loving mother and father. He said that ideal is under attack on many fronts and that disintegrating families have dire consequences in inner cities he serves. Without traditional marriage, it is hard to see how our community will be able to thrive. Agreeing was Daniel de Leon, an Assembly of God pastor representing AMEN, a group of Hispanic evangelical churches. My people know something about discrimination. The institution of marriage was not created to discriminate against people. It was created to protect children and to give them the best home possible a home with a mother and a father. Disagreeing was Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., ranking subcommittee Democrat. An amendment regarding same-sex marriage would write discrimination into the governing document of our nation. He said he expects bitter battles, saying, Taking away a group of people's rights forever can never be done in a civil manner. Likewise, Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said, By endorsing this shameful proposed amendment, in a desperate tactic to divide Americans in an attempt to salvage his faltering re-election campaign, President Bush will go down in history as the first president to try to write bias back into the Constitution. But Maggie Gallagher, president of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy, said most Americans do not believe it would be discrimination. Sixty percent of African-Americans oppose same-sex marriage, as do 60 percent of white Americans, according to a November Pew poll. . . . Are they all bigots? While some churches praised the amendment plan, others publicly opposed it including the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations and the Presbyterian Church (USA). And while key Democrats such as Kennedy and Feingold oppose the proposed amendment, some Democrats have co-sponsored it. (Among those who have publicly supported it is Rep. Jim Matheson, D-Utah.) And while Hatch and Senate Republican Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., support the proposed amendment, Sen. Lincoln Chaffee, R-R.I., joined opponents of it in a press conference Wednesday. Also, many conservatives do not like amending the Constitution at all while others want to go even further than Bush to also ban civil unions for gays. Sen. Bob Bennett and Rep. Rob Bishop, both R-Utah, have not yet endorsed amending the Constitution, saying they want to look at all options to defend traditional marriage. One well-known conservative, Chuck Muth, president of Citizen Outreach, blasted the proposed amendment at the hearing. We strongly oppose the notion of addressing this issue of social policy in our nation's governing document. He likened the amendment to another one
[ZION] Judicial insanity spreads
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/02/national/02CHAR.html?ex=1078808400en=391ad639af296166ei=5062partner=GOOGLE Catholic Group Is Told to Pay for Birth Control By STEPHANIE STROM Published: March 2, 2004 The California Supreme Court ruled Monday that Catholic Charities must provide its employees in California with medical coverage for birth control, in spite of its religious objections to contraception. The ruling has sweeping implications for religion-based nonprofit organizations and hospitals throughout the state and could influence decisions made in at least 20 other states that have similar laws requiring employers to provide contraception as part of employee health coverage, legal experts said. A similar case, brought by Catholic and Protestant organizations, is winding its way through the New York courts. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Standards vs Censorship
Big gripe I had with the ALM crowd. Many of them are advocates for artistic freedom. They want license to write anything that contributes to a good-selling story, regardless of the implicit message or moral content -- including explicit descriptions of sexual behavior that clearly violates LDS standards. These things are a part of real life, they argue. I abandoned the protests in the AML forum long ago. But recently the issue was raised again, as Deseret Book issued a new edict proclaiming that books which fail to meet their standards will not be sold there. I had a private laugh as I thought to myself, It serves them right. In a way, I think the recalcitrance of many LDS artists has forced this policy. There have been predictable howls of anguish and protest against such heavy-handed censorship. But I suspect that serious LDS writers who wish to have a market for their work will toe the line. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Mouse
Mickey is 75 today. Somehow defines the age of our culture. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mormon Writers
Ron poses a false dilemma -- but it makes for a good story. A few years ago Elder Richard G. Scott gave a general conference address on the topic of cultural baggage. He indicated that cultural roots are and should be an important and integral part of our membership in the Church. We bring with us the good things, and abandon the dross. It seems painfully obvious to me that Church leaders are fully aware of these issues. Indeed I believe there is more sensitivity and attention devoted to diverse cultural heritage today than I can ever remember. In fact I have Jewish ancestors that bring a unique cultural background to my family, and contribute an important component of my own cultural identity. BTW, I checked at Deseret Book, and found that they list five novels by Chiam Potok. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Scott Card
Stephen Beecroft wrote: --- Orson Scott Card, LDS writer of fiction/science fiction/fantasy, has complained that most present-day authors eschew developing the character of good guys because, as they claim, bad guys are more interesting. --- Yet Card is not above using the same tactics as other writers. I was terribly disappointed with _Saints_. In the story Card apparently found an interest in exploring the sexuality of Joseph Smith and one of his plural wives. Perhaps I'm prudish, but I thought this was speculation on matters that are best left open. That said, I have to admit that some of the other more liberal LDS writers that have ventured into this territory were certainly less sensitive than Card's treatment of the issues. As far as I know, opening this topic for discussion, particularly under the heading of New Mormon History, qualifies singularly as a preoccupation for Signaturi. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] News sources
Another matter that leaves dead-tree news in the dust is simply the selection available in online media sources. There are thousands of online sources now. I can sample them all, at my leisure. I could never have had such a selection available in printed copies. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Thoreau
The very simplicity and nakedness of man's life in the primitive ages imply this advantage, at least, that they left him still but a sojourner in nature. When he was refreshed with food and sleep, he contemplated his journey again. He dwelt, as it were, in a tent in this world, and was either threading the valleys, or crossing the plains, or climbing the mountain-tops. But lo! men have become the tools of their tools. The man who independently plucked the fruits when he was hungry is become a farmer; and he who stood under a tree for shelter, a housekeeper. We now no longer camp as for a night, but have settled down on earth and forgotten heaven. We have adopted Christianity merely as an improved method of agriculture. We have built for this world a family mansion, and for the next a family tomb. (Thoreau, Walden) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
Ron Scott wrote: --- Where, in your opinion, is the communist threat today. --- Don't be silly. Eastern-bloc communism could be revived overnight. Communist governments in third-world countries in Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America are a constant threat to our security. Any semi-rational person can see this. Even now we as a nation are making huge efforts around the world to advocate and encourage democratic governments. Your negative reflections on Benson's politics are specious. Of course some of the specifics do not pertain to current events, just like some writings of Isaiah about the Assyrians are not particularly pertinant today. But there's nothing outdated or anachronistic about President Benson's counsel regarding loyalty to God and country. Plenty of us could take lessons from President Benson's teachings. One of the more telling complaints I've heard from right-wing folks is that liberals seem to hate America and what it stands for. It is easy to understand why patriotic folks with traditional ideals form this opinion. It is difficult, in the context of these times, to understand why anyone would sell short the importance of national defense and security. I worry far more about that than I do about being preoccupied with Communists hiding in every toilet. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
Ron Scott wrote: --- Ah, I'm less than semi-rational. I suppose I'll validate your name calling if I say I don't agree with you. Not agreeing with you is prima facie evidence that I am less than semi-rational, right? --- Not agreeing with me is evidence that we do not agree. No surprise in that. We can still talk, can't we? RBS: --- It's possible that communism could be revived in some former republics of the USSR. --- No dramatic revival would be required for many formerly communist countries. Just a transition back to old familiar ways. Isn't it rather academic that any socio-political group which believes communism is the best viable economic and political system could assume power. Particularly in unstable countries where there is nothing competing for that niche. shrug In spite of your light dismissal, there are still plenty of folks in evidence even in this country who are devoted to Marxist ideals. They would welcome another chance. RBS: --- True enough. But the alternative to democracy isn't necessarily communism. --- Oh? You think monarchy or feudal fiefdom are still popular up-and-coming governments? RBS: --- We'll please be specific about my speciousness, if it's not too much to ask. --- Don't play dumb. Your characterizations of Benson are nearly unanimously polemic. Lableling him as the icon of the right wing can hardly be taken as an even-handed compliment by anyone. RBS: --- I listen to him and many others. --- Yes--there's listening, then there's listening. RBS: --- You are putting words in my mouth, drawing inferences that have NO BASIS IN FACT,Brother Jim. --- Eh. I only put words in my own mouth. Yours is way too far away. smile RBS: --- ...whether theres a commy in every commode. --- In your face, Ron. This was your (obviously polemic) characterization. Want to change the tone of the discussion? Go ahead, I'll reciprocate. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] This is Me
A most amazing hat-- (URL looks pretty mangled after I copied it. Might have to try a bit of cutting and pasting to resurrect the whole corpus.) http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jhtml?id=0022624901951anavAction=jumpnavCount=0indexId=podId=0022624catalogCode=UDparentId=parentType=rid=cmCat=search_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fcatalog%2Fitem-link.jhtml.2_A_DAV=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcontent%2FPod%2F02%2F26%2F24%2Fp022624ii01.jpghasJS=true; Bridger Mountain Man Coyote Fur Hat Relive the era of the mountain man with this authentic full-body coyote Mountain Man Hat. The hat drapes down in the back for added warmth and protection on your neck and shoulders. From reenactments of famed mountain man triumphs along the frontier, to displays and decor befitting America's pioneers and settlers, the classic styling and authentic coyote hide make this hat a conversation starter at any gathering. The soft, white-tanned interior holds up to years of wear. The professionally cleaned fur is exceptionally soft and holds its sheen extremely well. This is the perfect gift for rendezvous black-powder re-enactment enthusiasts. Made in Canada. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] How to Become a Gospel Scholar
Here's a paper addressing that topic from John Welch. He is not a general authority, but is certainly a gospel scholar with few peers. http://www.byui.edu/Ricks/employee/ALLREDP/Assignments-Gospel%20Scholarship/Welch%20on%20Gospel%20Scholarship.htm; // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Study topics this week
Some things I am currently interested in studying: Character of Jesus during his youth. Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. DC 93:14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first. Implications of mortality for a member of the Godhead. Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Philippians 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] One leads to another...
George Cobabe wrote: Boy o Boy, that is certainly a response designed to continue discussion. It is interesting that the best you can offer is a complete denial that Stacy had anything useful to say and without and justification on your part. Not even a disclaimer that you uinderstand it differently, but jsut a dismissal. One ad-hominem leads to another. Perhaps we could anticipate where this is leading, and just skip the ending. Whether or not you find the bloom in list traffic personally gratifying, I am certain we could all benefit from a higher intellectual level of exchange, even when we cannot resist slinging invectives. My best insults nearly always pass virtually unrecognized over the heads of the intended recipients. I most enjoy the passive-aggressive attack. smirk // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Feng Shui
What is feng shui? How does it reconcile with living the gospel of Christ? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- Would that all the single men in the Church were as devoted to keeping the commandment to marry as seriously as you did and do. --- Many of us take it seriously too. As a single man I am working on addressing this concern as quickly as sanity and comfort can afford. I have discovered that it is not an easy thing for an older man. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --- I believe it is being done as we speak. Do you see the current missionary program as compromised or ineffective? Looks like it is working well to me. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] An Illustrious Group
John W. Redelfs wrote: Tom Valletta has just joined us. Welcome, Tom! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Our characterizations and definitions of love itself are ambiguous at best. No surprise that discussions of this quality in the character and nature of God are fraught with difficulty. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Roll Call
Jon Spencer wrote: I am not here. I'm over there. Blown off course in that last hurricane, no doubt. ;-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
JWR: --- Hate the sin and love the sinner. I understand that. But why do I have to be accepting of a false church in order to be loving towards its deluded, lied to, and oppressed members? I can love a Catholic without loving his church. The same goes for a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Buddhist or Moslem. Reading 2 Nephi 28 and then reading these Internet email discussion lists, Zion included, causes me considerable cognitive dissonance. --- Yes, I suppose the bottom line is that today we must make an extra effort to distinguish between the people who belong to other churches and the formal institutions that constitute those other churches. This is definitely more of a challenge than simply blasting everyone who differs from us. While we continue to unequivocally condemn false and vain and foolish doctrines, yet we recognize those people as our brothers and sisters, prospective converts to the true Gospel of Christ, potential Latter-day Saints. We don't seek to antagonize or alienate these potential members of the true Church by focusing primarily on their faults. I guess the thinking is that we can win the hearts of more men by gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned. Perhaps, as the scriptures suggest, this has always been the right approach. Apparently the sword of truth can be a soft touch at appropriate times, in contrast to more heavy-handed dividing asunder kind of action. ;-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mainstreaming Mormonism
Religion re-enters S.L. mayoral race Pollster Jones says it regained dominant role Copyright 2003 Deseret Morning News By Bob Bernick Jr. Deseret Morning News Salt Lake City politics in the early 1900s had an ugly twist: Candidates and officeholders were judged by whether they were Mormons or gentiles. In time, however, the political issue of one's religion melted away into discussions of economic development, zoning, water, parks and traffic. But the old days have returned, to an extent, says pollster Dan Jones, in this year's Salt Lake mayor race between incumbent Mayor Rocky Anderson and challenger Frank Pignanelli although neither candidate is Mormon. Religion is playing a dominant role in this (the 2003 Salt Lake City mayor's) race. Whether we like it or not, it has, says Jones, who has polled in Utah for 30 years. My polling shows religion is more prominent in this race than in any other contest I've seen in Utah. To illustrate how much the city's political climate has changed, former Mayor Palmer DePaulis recalls how when he was elected in 1985 little mention if any was made that he was the city's first Catholic mayor. And religion wasn't a factor in issues at City Hall as it is now. Absolutely, I feel religious tensions in the city, said DePaulis, who lives near Liberty Park. It's very unfortunate. It's not healthy. The resurgence of a Mormon/non-Mormon split was first recognized in the 1999 election, says Jones, who is also a political science professor at the University of Utah. Exit polls conducted for KSL-TV in 1999 showed that then-candidate Anderson, who belongs to no organized religion, got only 28 percent of the LDS vote. His challenger, Stuart Reid, an active Mormon, received 72 percent of the Mormon vote. Two years after his election, Anderson's job performance polls showed he had turned half of his LDS detractors into supporters. But when Anderson took a stand to keep a free-speech easement on the LDS Church-owned Main Street Plaza, the religious split surfaced again. Then Anderson wondered aloud if City Council members who were active in the LDS Church could make an unbiased decision on the plaza. The religion question softened some after the council adopted the compromise brokered by Anderson and the Alliance for Unity, a group of civic, business and religious leaders the mayor co-founded. But two weeks ago, after the City Council voted not to let the Nordstrom department store move from Crossroads Mall to a westside development, Anderson said some of the council members likely voted against the move because of their religion (all are LDS); especially in light of the fact that the LDS Church was the new owners of Crossroads Mall. I'm just speaking the truth, Anderson said when criticized for putting religion into the council's vote. He's walking down a dangerous road, says Pignanelli, Anderson's ballot opponent next Tuesday. By putting religion into these decisions, what's he saying? Can Mormons even serve on the City Council? Do we need an affirmative action plan to get non-Mormons on the council? It is very destructive to the political fabric of our community, said Pignanelli, a practicing Catholic. And it makes no sense politically, to bring religion into the debate over Nordstrom or the Main Street Plaza. That is what frustrates city residents. Why put us through this? Anderson acknowledges there has been a backlash to some of his actions and statements. Part of the backlash, he says, is misunderstanding. Another part is that his administration has made this community more inclusive for everyone. And some people may not like that inclusiveness seeing it as a threat to their own positions in society, he said. Part of the backlash is also a result of my willingness to open a public dialogue about why some not of the (LDS) faith feel resentful and without a voice in Utah politics, said Anderson. This is a situation that's existed for many years here. And in order to bridge any divisions, we must speak candidly about these matters. One reason, he said, the Alliance for Unity was created was to speak openly and honestly about those things that divide us, especially along religious lines. Jones' polling results illustrate the underlying religious dynamic being played out in Salt Lake City politics: An August survey by Jones for the Deseret Morning News and KSL-TV shows that only 14 percent of LDS city residents planned to vote for Anderson in the Oct. 7 primary. A large 70 percent of LDS residents had an unfavorable opinion of Anderson. An early October poll of registered voters found only 19 percent planned to vote for Anderson in the primary election (which he won by 15 percentage points over Pignanelli, who finished second). Two-thirds of LDS voters had an
RE: [ZION] A Dangerous Book
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- I think that Bloom's book could be very dangerous to us as a people. What do you think? --- Not following you, John. What is a danger to us as LDS people? Seems to me that the greatest danger we face is not following our religion. We could become just like most others in the world -- paying hypocritical lip service to our ideals while living as we please. Our greatest threat comes not from our critics. It comes from failing to please our God. Harold Bloom is an interesting academic voice. But his characterizations of Mormon culture mostly miss the point. Your quote from him about Joseph Smith is a good example. Bloom fails to catch the pragmatic spirit that was so characteristic of Saints in the Nauvoo era. Their efforts were never quixotic. These were not people with their head in the clouds. They got things done by doing what was possible and trusting the Lord for the rest. Would that we had more of this kind of collective resolve today. We could change the world in a major way. And more than people like Bloom would have to sit up and take notice. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Returning good for evil is an intriguing idea. But the suggestion in this context brings more questions than it seems to answer. How does one do this? What about Jesus whipping the moneychangers from the temple? Maybe punching their lights out was the appropriate response. Do aggressive violent acts ever serve good rather than evil? Perhaps the Savior is exempt from the good for evil rule. It is given to us to know good from evil, therefore we have an obligation to judge for ourselves. sigh Life is so complicated... // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Conversion
New converts are not often full-grown in their testimony. They depend somewhat on socializing and fellowship to support their faith. As do we all. The Savior's counsel to Simon Peter -- When thou art converted, strenthen thy brethren. (Luke 22:32). I am continually wounded by discussions that use family metaphors regarding church fellowship. Over the past decade my family ties have been tested, both bonds with literal blood-relations and fellow saints. Many of the alliances I thought I could depend on came apart in times of trial, and some even turned around to become my personal stumbling-blocks. Ultimately we must invest our faith in the Savior and His unchanging love for us. Without this foundation, everything else will fail. New and old converts alike need to learn this lesson. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Inheritance of all things...
Now some persons may begin to harrow up their feelings, and to cherish in their hearts murmurings because God in his providence and in his mercy and kindness, may begin to pour upon this man and upon that man blessings by which he accumulates wealth, and by which he is made comfortable and happy; they are envious and jealous; now, if all things are ours, is there not a time when some of God's people will begin to inherit some of them? Yea. There must be a beginning to inherit all things. If we envy those that are really beginning to participate a little in the inheritance of all things, is not this a strong presumptive evidence within ourselves that we are not heirs to all things, neither are we willing that our brethren should be. When a man of God is blessed from on high and shall begin to gather around him means sufficient to place him beyond the reach of immediate want, God hath done itGod hath blessed that personand every Saint will feel thankful to see his brethren so prospered and blessed of the Lord, feeling encouraged that his time will come sometime if he continues faithful. Instead of being jealous of the prosperity of those whom the Lord delights to bless and murmur in our hearts against our brethren and against the Lord, let us learn to be contented with that which is assigned to us, and wait patiently until the Lord shall in his mercy and kindness bless us more abundantly. I do not know any better way to hasten on our day of great blessings than to be liberal in our feelings and labor with all our might to lift up and encourage those who are bowed down, and to sustain the Priesthood of God. The Lord sees us all and knows what our feelings arethe very thoughts and intents of our hearts are laid bare before Him [Sec. 38:2], and when He sees that we are prepared to endure great earthly blessings, do you think that any trifling circumstance will cause him to delay and wait and put us off and make us wait for his blessings. (Orson Hyde, JD, October 8, 1864, 10:263.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
My friends, I concern myself little about the fools who mock the truth. Their time is limited, they will wither away like the summer grass, and the truth will still be strong. One of the side effects naysayers unwittingly cause is raising the level of public awareness about the Church. Certainly most who read of such evil and unwarranted acts will be sympathetic to the Church. This may create opportunites for the Gospel to reach some who would never otherwise be receptive. People who attempt to desecrate sacred temple garments little understand the nature of sacred things. As I see it, my use of temple clothing is a symbol representing the covenants I have made with Heavenly Father in the temple. The garment is a token, not a magical talisman. It has no special temporal or spiritual properties in and of itself. It is a physical reminder to me that the power of God is a constant protection and shield from worldly encroachments, as I remain faithful. In the hands of unbelievers, temple garments are not different from other pieces of clothing. Those who seek to blaspheme sacred beliefs are simply heaping coals upon their own heads. Their acts of attempted desecration are not worthy of note. They are apparently not possessed of sufficient intelligence to be suitably embarrassed about such foolery. In truth, such gross misunderstanding as exhibited by these malicious evil doers gives us all the more reason to value our own sacred relationship with Heavenly Father. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Schwarzenegger
Arnold becomes the new governor of California. Where else could such a thing happen? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Where have all the Mormon feminists gone?
Where have all the Mormon feminists gone? By Peggy Fletcher Stack The Salt Lake Tribune No banners proclaiming Mormons for ERA will be soaring over the LDS General Conference this weekend as they did in the 1970s. No Mormon women will be picketing the semi-annual meeting or praying to their Mother in Heaven over wardhouse pulpits, as they did in the 1980s. None will be speaking out on women's rights on the steps of the state Capitol or on TV, getting themselves fired from Brigham Young University or excommunicated from the church as they did in the 1990s. In other words, Mormon feminists are awfully quiet. The Mormon Women's Forum, established in Salt Lake City in 1988, can scarcely draw a crowd to its annual fall conference. Exponent II, the Boston-based quarterly for Mormon women, which led its readers gently, gently towards feminism, is still publishing nearly 30 years after it was launched. But it is more likely to take up issues of grief, aging and being single in a married church than the question of priesthood power. These days, Mormons feminists are less likely to publicly cut their ties to the church than to quietly slip into inactivity or simply go underground, nursing their concerns in private. Feminism as a movement within Mormonism is dead or dying with our generation, says Claudia Bushman, an LDS historian who teaches at Columbia University. Feminism is such a potent word, it's been expunged from our vocabulary. But does that mean there are no independent, free-thinking women in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Or that all women's issues have been resolved? Or that they no longer care about the questions that remain in a church which excludes women from its top offices? The answer to all three is no, says Jill Derr, managing director of BYU's Smith Institute for Latter-day Saint History. Young Mormon women today take equality between men and women on a personal and professional level as a given, she says. It's not even a question. Young scholars are more well-rounded, more disciplined and less scarred by the experience of overt discrimination, Derr says. They expect to balance family and career and presume the church's approval. They did not live through the polarizing era that was such a marked part of our lives, she says. They can look at our history through a more nuanced, complex lens. It may be just the term feminism that makes people wince. For some, it carries too many negative connotations derived from past battles and is synonymous with a confrontational style or hostility to motherhood. Or they feel it has been co-opted by those who define it solely in terms of reproductive rights or competition with men. One BYU professor says feminism has been dropped from women's studies discourse almost entirely, replaced by the more neutral term gender. Besides, the church has changed a lot since the 1970s. Issues that electrified earlier activists have slowly declined or disappeared, Bushman says. Female participation and visibility in the church are on the rise. At this weekend's conference, at least one woman will likely speak in nearly every session (except tonight's priesthood session, open only to men). Women can preach and pray over ward pulpits as often and as prominently as men. They sit on ward councils, serve as presidents of women's organizations such as Relief Society, Young Women, and Primary. They officiate at some women-only temple ceremonies. More and more of them are serving full-time missions for the church, becoming just as well-versed in Mormon scriptures as their male counterparts. On the home front, the church has stopped pushing big families and talking about birth control. Mormon leaders still see the nurturing of children as the most important thing a woman can do, but are more sensitive to the needs of working women. They encourage couples to make family decisions prayerfully, based on individual situations, not on a universal mandate. Last summer the Smith Institute hired Bushman to direct a seminar for graduate students on LDS women in the 20th century. Organizers had to choose qualified fellows from among dozens of applicants. They settled on eight women from Harvard, Yale, Brown, the University of Utah, Claremont College and BYU. Some were married with children, some without children, some single. At least half had served LDS missions. They were all very ambitious, very able and very devoted to the church, Bushman says. When I was that age, you could not have assembled a group like that. They spent eight weeks in Provo, researching topics ranging from LDS participation in the National Council of Women from 1888-1987, the history of the church's stance on birth control, rifts among LDS women created by the Equal Rights Amendment, and the relationship between patriarchy and contentment.
[ZION] Mormon movie
Making the rounds of Utah theatres, panned by the critics: THE BOOK OF MORMON MOVIE, VOLUME 1: THE JOURNEY ** Proving that good intentions don't translate to good filmmaking, the first part of director Gary Rogers' ambitious live-action series (based on LDS scripture) is a lackluster re-telling of the books of Nephi, with actor Noah Danby making a bland hero. Running time: 119 minutes. PG-13 (violence, brief gore). (5-Star, Gateway, Holladay, Jordan Landing, Megaplex 17, Ritz.) (Sept. 12, 2003) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] A prophet speaks...
President Hinckley is ever filled with boundless optimism and good cheer. Always uplifting to hear him speak. In his closing remarks, I seem to sense that he wishes to lift up the entire church with his blessings and counsel. I would hate to disappoint him. Elder Maxwell, though he has the appearance of a man barely clinging to life, delivered such a moving and powerful oratory. Every once in a while I hear something -- a thought or phrase -- that pentrates deeply and resonates on and on. In Elder Holland's talk in the last session, he made reference to the passage in the scriptures referring to the prophet Ether's communion with the Lord. The specific phrase that so struck me indicated that the wicked in Ether's day had fallen so low in their depravity that they ...hate their own blood causing the heavens to weep in mourning. I am considering the implications... // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Where have all the Mormon feminists gone?
The author of the article is one of those old-time man-hating feminists that apparently believed or sympathized with all the pernicious stereotypical ideas about the evils of patriarchy and blah blah blah. One of those for whom our friend John coined the term Signaturi. I am certain that Sister Stack and her associates are mighty confused about the current state of affairs in the Church. It is almost as if they set themselves to tackle a seemingly insurmountable barrier and on approach, discovered that it wasn't there. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Paul Osborne wrote: --- No one made you the judge. --- It would be pleasant to believe this. I could suspend all my struggles at discernment and tell myself, Not to worry, you're not the judge. Let someone else decide what is right and wrong. However easy that might be, it is not the gospel... For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. (Moroni 7:15) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Private from Redelfs
John, your not-so-private (:-)) charitable response is gratifying. My commentary was simply a point of discussion in which I hold an abiding interest. Always fascinating to hear what others think. No need to stir up bad feelings. I only hope to perhaps stimulate some new thoughts along these lines. I certainly do not presume to preach new doctrine or judge anyone else's life choices. How could I be so bold, when my own path has proven to be so treacherous? The road is difficult and every step is a struggle. I judge that this is the way the Lord intended for it to be with us. Let us press on in all faith and diligence--I am confident that we will not be disappointed with the end. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] confiding in bishops
Counsel with the bishop is a standard answer. As a problem solving strategy, it usually doesn't work at all, at least in my experience. Bishops don't have effective answers for any but the most routine problems. Many of them are good at running LDS wards, but terrible as personal counselors. After ten years of crying on bishop's shoulders I have changed my thinking. It isn't fair for me to unburden my problems on them. I've tried harder to share my confidences with the Lord, and keep my personal problems to myself. I can imagine the numerous bishops I've dumped my sad story on over the last decade, cringing mentally every time they think about me. Oh, that poor miserable Brother Cobabe. I hope he doesn't come to me for sympathy again. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] working woman
Stacy Smith wrote: --- Not exactly. Sometimes it can be very uncomfortable to follow prophetic counsel and sometimes circumstantial change does not warrant a change. If there is any difficulty in this, as there has been with me and the fast, one counsels with the bishop. --- Not sure I understand. How can my bishop's directives override the words of the living prophets? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Val wrote: --- So it depends on which prophetic counsel you are referencing. --- In my view, prophetic counsel is consistent in letter and spirit from one day to the next, through all ages of time. If I see conflicts in the pronouncements from one prophet to another, I must assume that there is a fault in my interpretation. I will not entertain the suggestion that counsel from President Benson is somehow trumped by statements from President Hinckley. One aspect of this issue is the manner of delivery of certain messages that differs significantly from one man to another. President Benson was blunt and aggressive in his directives. President Hinckley is often soft-spoken and indirect. He tends to be more sensitive about public perception. Notwithstanding, I saw no quotes indicating that President Hinckley has at any time rescinded the archaic counsel that mothers should not work. I have long pondered the postscript trailing the Proclamation on the Family. My suspicion is that many people will skip over the body of the message to this last bit of the message and focus all their attention on it. See, my circumstances are special, so I will just write my own Proclamation! I am not offering the least criticism to women who work out of necessity. Of course families without fathers have different circumstances and needs. The gospel is not a cruel taskmaster that burdens widows with unreasonable demands, is it? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Paul Osborne wrote: --- This is outdated counsel and no longer meets with the necessary needs and requirements of many saints in a changing world that places new demands on families. I see President Hinckley has been slowly superseding this counsel at a rate that is not too far behind the trend. --- Paul, I cannot locate any general counsel from church leaders indicating that President Benson's directives about mothers staying home has been rescinded or superceded. Can you find us an authoritative source as basis for your assertions? A recent conference talk from President Hinckley would be convincing. I am minded of one of Jesus' comments to the Jews about divorce, from the New Testament. He said that because the Jews insisted on a provision for divorce, Moses gave them some kind of compromise to satisfy their unrighteous demands. Nevertheless, there is no provision for divorce in the laws of God. The only legitimate marriage contract is one that is eternally binding. We can certainly follow this pattern in our own times with regard to our selective obedience to the counsel of general church leaders. Whether or not we as a church accept and live by true principles is has no bearing on the truth of correct principles. There will come a day of reckoning when our faithfulness will be measured. Those who insist on watering down the principles of the gospel for their own convenience will come up short of the mark. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Stacy Smith wrote: --- The implications are that people from the far East are better? --- I implied no such thing, but since you asked, perhaps you could please instruct us on the subject of Far Eastern culture and marriage customs. Are their marriages better or worse than ours? How and why? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
I wish I could understand why the contemporary western view is that our women are so transcendingly enlightened. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most contemporary western women have no regard for the correct principles of the gospel as they pertain specifically to women. Perhaps we could conduct a survey of views on importance of following President Benson's counsel about mothers not working outside the home. Or perhaps we could find some statistics regarding women married in the temple and their current rate of divorce. Would these be good measures? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] freedom versus free agency
Free agency is an inviolable gift from Heavenly Father. Each of us has absolute free agency to make choices for good or evil. Our freedom, on the other hand, is constantly subjected to bounds and conditions and restrictions. Our freedom is constrained by natural laws, by self-imposed restrictions, by the impositions of other individuals, and by society in general. What is the effect of free agency in the absence of absolute freedom? What if government laws constrain my free exercise of choice? Perhaps Heavenly Father will judge my decisions based on what I would have done had I been completely free to act. In 2 Nephi 2:16, we read that enticement is a necessary element in our decision-making exercise of free agency. What does it mean to be enticed in choosing between good and evil? Is the test of mortal probation in part intended to demonstrate (to myself) which choices are most enticing or attractive to me personally? I assume that Heavenly Father already knew my inclination toward good or evil choices, but that it was something I needed to learn for myself. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] West Nile virus
Steven Montgomery wrote: --- Hey! I was born and raised in the Uintah Basin. All kinds of relatives on both sides of my family in, around, and through such locales as Vernal, Roosevelt, Altamont, Tridell, Jensen, Maeser, etc. So, you've probably bumped into some of my relatives out there. Say hello to them from me--will you grin? --- Steven, I mostly just bump into trees at work. I am working for the Forest Service this summer, counting all the trees on the mountains of Ashley National Forest. I have driven through most of these towns on the way up to the forest. At night I'm sleeping in a trailer in an RV park in Vernal. One of the survey team members I was working with is from Tridell. Turns out that her family, the Brinkerhoffs, are also relatives of my brother-in-law. It was interesting to make the connection. My brother-in-law, Gene Cook, is also related to the McKee family in Tridell. I have heard lots of jokes about family lines that frequently intertwine in this area. :-) --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] West Nile virus
Incidentally, although bovine and equine immunization has been available for a couple of years, no human vaccine for West Nile is yet available. I have read that it will be at least two more years before the newly developmed vaccine can be produced in large enough quantities to start distributing to the public. I wonder if there is a there a way to get vaccinated through private sources. Like many of the important government officials who had access to Cipro during the Anthrax scare. Hmm... --- Jim (covered with mosquito bites) Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The September Six Today
Something that interests me is the common perception of these malcontents that their disaffection from the church is a punishment. The doctrine of the church regarding disfellowshipment and excommunication is that these actions represent the church's protection against apostasy, and the individual's opportunity to start on the road to repentance. While I suspect the first cause is well served, it seems that except for Brother Gileadi, they lacked the right attitude to approach repentance. There is probably an element of hypocrisy in any observations we might make on this matter. I hope I never have to face the decision between loyalty to an intellectual cause and loyalty to my faith in Heaven Father. May we prosper together and ever try to lift each other up. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] West Nile virus
West Nile virus has been detected in Utah as of last week. Earlier this summer the virus spread through southern Colorado. Seven people were found to be infected in July. Many people suspect that other cases occurred in the area, but were covered up or misdiagnosed. Apparently several test flocks of chickens in areas of central Utah and Utah Valley have now been infected. Two cases of equine encephalitis were found in the Uinah Basin, where I am working this summer. Anybody else know of local news about the spreading virus? --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
Stacy Smith wrote: --- I still don't understand the question I asked being answered. We know that many people attend the temple when they shouldn't. Doesn't this defile the temple itself? --- Stacy, I don't think so. The Temple is the House of the Lord, the absolute domain of Heavenly Father. It is sanctified by His power. I think we simply don't have the capacity to diminish that. Apparently it serves His purposes to permit the unworthy or unqualified to visit the Temple at their own volition. Yet I do not doubt that He watches over the affairs in the Temple with special interest. I do not believe the defilers have any power to do more than heap condemnation and destruction upon their own heads. Hopefully those who realize what they are doing will repent quickly, in fear and trembling. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Gnostic secrets and Gospel truths
One of the basic tenets of Gnosticsim seems to be that we were consigned to this mortal probation as punishment for our evil nature. This contradicts some of the basic principles of the true Gospel. The Gnostics were isolationists and hermits who hated the world, and expressed their emnity by holding themselves separate. Our doctrine is that we should live in the world, but avoid being worldly. A marked contrast in pragmatic thinking. One of the aspects of Gnosticism that appeals to some is the element of secrecy. Some would draw parallels between this and our religion. The difference is that temple ordinances are closed because of their sacred nature, not because there is any need to keep them hidden. Anyone who wishes can find out everything that goes on in our temples. An intriguing question -- if we enter the temple unworthily, how is our presence there different from interlopers who intrude there? --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Breaking the Cartel?
Steven Montgomery wrote: I'd sure like to see the DeBeer's diamond cartel broken: I wonder, Steven, what difference it would make. One conspiracy would probably just replace another. :-) --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mormon Faith in America
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- I ran across a book review of a work entitled MORMON FAITH IN AMERICA by Maxine Hanks and Jeanne Kinney Williams. It is a children's book for grade 6 and up. --- One of the ways subversives inculcate their own values into the mainstream. They teach their twisted doctrines to naive children. Peggy Fletcher also wrote a children's book a while back. Perhaps it is a trendy thing amongst the Signaturi. Remember, John, the liberal-minded claim exclusive rights to any kind of compassion for children. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS
The liberal perspective examined... http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-07-31.cfm // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul Osborne wrote: --- I almost cried when I found out that apologists at BYU now say the Nephites rode deer and not horses. Now we have wooden swords and deer. Somehow that is not what I think Joseph Smith was seeing in the Urim Thummim. I'm sad. --- Paul, don't be sad about finding higher levels of enlightenment. We don't know what Joseph saw in the Urim and Thummim. Only a few descriptive narratives -- and the Book of Mormon. Some of our Arnold Frieburg created notions are deeply ingrained, but not necessarily true. Learning the truth is partly about finding where our ideas are wrong, and setting them aside. Not an easy task, to be sure. But necessary. Remember, faith is a knowledge of things we believe, which are true. We cannot exercise true faith in things that are false. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo
Persecution against the Saints does not have to assume the same form as those overt violent acts against the Church in the Nauvoo period. Even more hateful and vindictive injustice was weighed against the Church after it was established in the Rocky Mountains. The extent of the bureacratic and legalistic punishment of the Church by the US Government during that period is difficult to fathom. Such predations could easily be revisited in the near future. It seems that all the motivation required during the earlier period of anti-Mormon aggression was the manipulation of public sentiment by powerful people in high places. Are people any more sophisticated today? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Samoa Temple
I wept when I learned of this sad news. Is something amiss in the Church, that the Lord would allow one of his temples to be destroyed? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Krakauer
I have not seen Turley's review of Krakauer's new book. But I know that Krakauer has build a journalistic tradition of stirring up trouble. I really enjoyed his book _Into Thin Air_, but it apparently stirred up a lot of controversy too. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Who Owns Coca-Cola?
Well, Paul, I prefer Mountain Dew. It isn't Coke, so I can still claim to be holier-than-thou! ;-) At least those of us who are painfully honest about our bad habits can admit that we only like these drinks because of the things in them that are bad for us -- empty calories, pure sugar, caffiene. I'm pretty sure you can't inherit the highest degree of glory if you drink Coke. Isn't that written in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith somewhere? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] hand shakes
Siblings, day-care attendance, and the risk of asthma and wheezing during childhood. Ball TM, Castro-Rodriguez JA, Griffith KA, Holberg CJ, Martinez FD, Wright AL. Department of Pediatrics, University of Arizona College of Medicine, Tucson, USA. BACKGROUND: Young children with older siblings and those who attend day care are at increased risk for infections, which in turn may protect against the development of allergic diseases, including asthma. However, the results of studies examining the relation between exposure to other children and the subsequent development of asthma have been conflicting. METHODS: In a study involving 1035 children followed since birth as part of the Tucson Children's Respiratory Study, we determined the incidence of asthma (defined as at least one episode of asthma diagnosed by a physician when the child was 6 to 13 years old) and the prevalence of frequent wheezing (more than three wheezing episodes during the preceding year) in relation to the number of siblings at home and in relation to attendance at day care during infancy. RESULTS: The presence of one or more older siblings at home protected against the development of asthma (adjusted relative risk for each additional older sibling, 0.8; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.7 to 1.0; P=0.04), as did attendance at day care during the first six months of life (adjusted relative risk, 0.4; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.2 to 1.0; P=0.04). Children with more exposure to other children at home or at day care were more likely to have frequent wheezing at the age of 2 years than children with little or no exposure (adjusted relative risk, 1.4; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.1 to 1.8; P=0.01) but were less likely to have frequent wheezing from the age of 6 (adjusted relative risk, 0.8; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.6 to 1.0; P=0.03) through the age of 13 (adjusted relative risk, 0.3; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.2 to 0.5; P0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Exposure of young children to older children at home or to other children at day care protects against the development of asthma and frequent wheezing later in childhood. PMID: 10954761 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Royal Families
This doctrine of the election of grace is as follows: As part of the new song the saints will sing when they 'see eye to eye' and the millennial era has been ushered in will be these words, 'The Lord hath redeemed his people, Israel, According to the election of grace, Which was brought to pass by the faith And covenant of their fathers.' (D. C. 84:98-102; Rom. 11:1-5.) This election of grace is a very fundamental, logical, and important part of God's dealings with men through the ages. To bring to pass the salvation of the greatest possible number of his spirit children the Lord, in general, sends the most righteous and worthy saints to earth through the lineage of Abraham and Jacob. This course is a manifestation of his grace or in other words his love, mercy, and condescension toward his children. This election to a chosen lineage is based on pre-existent worthiness and is thus made 'according to the foreknowledge of God.' (1 Pet. 1:2.) Those so grouped together during their mortal probation have more abundant opportunities to make and keep the covenants of salvation, a right which they earned by pre-existent devotion to the cause of righteousness. As part of this election, Abraham and others of the noble and great spirits were chosen before they were born for the particular missions assigned them in this life. (Abra. 3:22-24; Rom. 9.) As with every basic doctrine of the gospel, the Lord's system of election based on pre-existent faithfulness has been changed and perverted by an apostate Christendom. So absurd have been the false conclusions reached in this field that millions of sincere though deceived persons have devoutly believed that in accordance with the divine will men were pre-destined to receive salvation or damnation which no act on their part could change. (Teachings, p. 189.) Actually, if the full blessings of salvation are to follow, the doctrine of election must operate twice. First, righteous spirits are elected or chosen to come to mortality as heirs of special blessings. Then, they must be called and elected again in this life, an occurrence which takes place when they join the true Church. (D. C. 53:1.) Finally, in order to reap eternal salvation, they must press forward in obedient devotion to the truth until they make their 'calling and election sure' (2 Pet. 1), that is, are 'sealed up unto eternal life.' (D. C. 131:5.) (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., pp. 216-217.) (_Doctrinal New Testament Commentary_, Bruce R. McConkie.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] hand shakes
My hand shakes a lot too. Whadda ya think we oughta do about it? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Danites
Danites and Avenging Angels are fun. One of the most imaginative and entertaining inventions of the anti-Mormons. Nibley has a good discussion of the topic in _Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass_. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Blood Atonement
The true doctrine of blood atonement is simple to explain -- 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. From _Mormon Doctrine_ -- President Joseph Fielding Smith has written: Man may commit certain grievous sins according to his light and knowledge that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his Own life to atone so far as in his power lies for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail. . . . Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 133-138.) This doctrine can only be practiced in its fulness in a day when the civil and ecclesiastical laws are administered in the same hands. It was, for instance, practiced in the days of Moses, but it was not and could not be practiced in this dispensation, except that persons who understood its provisions could and did use their influence to get a form of capital punishment written into the laws of the various states of the union so that the blood of murderers could be shed. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Blood Atonement
What a coincidence to find remarks on Utah's death penalty practices. Two firing squad executions were scheduled for next week, but were recently stayed pending bureacratic snafu. Utah still offers a choice to the condemned, though the policy is a topic of some controversy. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,485034295,00.html // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Lies about Iraqi museum just tip of iceberg
Steven, I suppose the problem is not newspapers, but those who read them. If the vast majority of people were not prepared to believe at first glance everything fed to them by the news media, journalists with an agenda would be wholly frustrated in their attempts to lead public opinion. How many saw the news reports about looting in Iraq, and immediately believed the stories? Why are we so gullible and naive? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Lies about Iraqi museum just tip of iceberg
By Charles Krauthammer It took only 48 hours for the museum to be destroyed, with at least 170,000 artifacts carried away by looters. New York Times, April 13 You'd have to go back centuries, to the Mongol invasion of Baghdad in 1258, to find looting on this scale. British archaeologist Eleanor Robson, New York Times, April 16 WASHINGTON Well, not really. Turns out the Iraqi National Museum lost not 170,000 treasures but 33. Baghdad Bob was more accurate. You'd have to go back centuries, say, to the Mongol invasion of Baghdad in 1258, to find mendacity on this scale. What happened? The source of the lie, Director General of Research and Study of the Iraqi State Board of Antiquities Donny George, now says (Washington Post, June 9) that he originally told the media that there were 170,000 pieces in the entire museum collection. Not 170,000 pieces stolen. No, no, no. That would be every single object we have! Of course, George saw the story of the stolen 170,000 museum pieces go around the world and said nothing. Indeed, two weeks later, he was in London calling the looting the crime of the century. Why? Because George and the other museum officials who wept on camera were Baath Party appointees, and the media, Western and Arab, desperate to highlight the dark side of the liberation of Iraq, bought their deceptions without an ounce of skepticism. It played on front pages everywhere and allowed for some deeply satisfying antiwar preening. For example, a couple of nonentities on a panel no one had ever heard of (the President's Cultural Property Advisory Committee) received major media play for their ostentatious resignations over the cultural rape of Baghdad. Frank Rich best captured the spirit of antiwar vindication when he wrote (New York Times, April 27) that the pillaging of the Baghdad museum has become more of a symbol of Baghdad's fall than the toppling of a less exalted artistic asset, the Saddam statue. The narcissism, the sheer snobbery of this statement, is staggering. The toppling of Saddam freed 25 million people from 30 years of torture, murder, war, starvation and impoverishment at the hands of a psychopathic family that matched Stalin for cruelty but took far more pleasure in it. For Upper West Side liberalism, this matters less than the destruction of a museum. Which didn't even happen! What now becomes of Rich's judgment that the destruction of the museum constitutes the naked revelation of our worst instincts at the very dawn of our grandiose project to bring democratic values to the Middle East? Does he admit that this judgment was nothing but a naked revelation of the cheapest instincts of the antiwar left that, shamed by the jubilation of Iraqis upon their liberation, a liberation the Western left did everything it could to prevent, the left desperately sought to change the subject and taint the victory? Hardly. The left simply moved on to another change of subject: the hyping of the weapons of mass destruction. The inability to find the weapons is indeed troubling, but only because it means that the weapons remain unaccounted for and might be in the wrong hands. The idea that our inability to thus far find the WMDs proves that the threat was phony and hyped is simply false. If the U.S. intelligence agencies bent their data to damn Saddam, why is it that the French, German and Russian intelligence services all came to the same conclusion? Why is it that every country on the Security Council, including Syria, in the unanimous Resolution 1441, declared that Saddam had failed to account for the tons of chemical and biological agents he had in 1998? If he had destroyed them all by 2002, why did he not just say so, list where and when it happened, and save his regime? If Saddam had no chemical weapons, why did coalition forces find thousands of gas masks and atropine syringes in Iraqi army bunkers? And does anybody believe that President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld and General Franks ordered U.S. soldiers outside Baghdad to don heavy, bulky, chemical-weapons suits in scorching heat an encumbrance that increased their risks in conventional combat and could have jeopardized their lives to maintain a charade? Everyone thought Saddam had weapons because we knew for sure he had them five years ago and there was no evidence that he disposed of them. The WMD-hyping charge is nothing more than the Iraqi museum story Part II: A way for opponents of the war deeply embarrassed by the mass graves, torture chambers and grotesque palaces discovered after the war to change the subject and relieve themselves of the shame of having opposed the liberation of 25 million people. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
RE: [ZION] Goodbye
I wish I knew who it was that said, In essentials let there be unity: in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity. But if I ever knew who said it I cannot now remember who it was, and I don't know that it matters, because the beauty and truth of the utterance is self-evident. It is one of those things which the world has accepted into its literature as being true and sensible, and it matters little who said it since it does not require other authority than the thing itself to commend it to men. (B.H. Roberts, Conference Report, October 1912) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Signs
Paul spoke of a society that contained too many people who were fierce and without natural affection. (2 Timothy 3:3; Romans 1:31.) The absence of true affection brings unnatural affection. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. (Romans 1:26.) Moroni saw a people who had lost their love one toward another and who were brutal and past feeling. (Moroni 9:19-20.) The Lord, speaking centuries earlier to Enoch, described how He had given to mortals their agency along with the commandments that they should love one another. Yet, said the Lord of people in Enoch's time, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood. (Moses 7:33.) Paul witnessed a trend that produced trucebreakers. Moroni saw a people reach a point when they were without order. Paul saw people becoming unmerciful. Moroni saw people who were without mercy. Paul saw the rise of false accusers and covenant breakers. Moroni viewed contemporaries among whom things were so broken down that they were without civilization. These are chilling comparisons, made even more sobering for, when laid alongside emboldened evil in our time, one sees such striking similarities! (Neal A. Maxwell, _All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Goodbye
It is only with faith in God that we are able to face the events of this life. We often face the daily basic routine happenings, hardly recognizing the vital moving force that accompanies our comings and goings. However, like the ebb and flow of the waters on the shoreline, there come occasions of high tide when the power of faith is activated in ways that we recognize as miraculous, and they become the very fruits of faith. They bear evidence of the realities of God and our relationship to him. It is then that we can draw deeply from a reservoir of faith gradually accumulated over years of learning and living the gospel and coming to know the Savior. With unwavering faith in God and the righteous desire of our hearts, we can call upon the Lord and actually witness his hand in our own personal lives. I know this to be true. (Ardeth Kapp, _The Lectures on Faith in Historical Perspective_, BYU Press) My lifelong experience verifies this assertion. Short-lived experiments often return a skewed perspective that does not accurately reflect the long-term reality. We cannot trifle with sacred covenants and expect to gain the same end as those who abide in faith. We can only find greater truths by really exercising long-suffering and endurance. The parable of the ten virgins is instructive. Only those who are prepared to wait patiently on the Lord will eventually find their reward. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Integrity
John W. Redelfs wrote: So are you quoting someone here, Jim. Or did you pen this yourself? --JWR Sorry John. Out of context quote from O.C. Tanner, Mormon philsopher and philanthropist of the David O. McKay era, published in an obscure work called _Christ's Ideals for Living_ by Deseret in 1955. Here's a fuller context-- --- It is said that nothing can ever be right in a man's life, if he is not sincere. The ideal of sincerity is central to the religion of Christ. The demand of this ideal is genuineness, honesty of mind or intention, transparent candor. To use an example Christ gave, it is the simple, unaffected sincerity of a child that is required of us. Our thoughts and intentions are invisible. They are known to others by the words we speak, our outward expression, the signals we give to represent our invisible personalities. If we tell a lie, we mislead others as to what is inside. Then the lie becomes part of one's character and the insincere person shatters the trust and confidence other people may have or want to impose in him. On the positive side, he who puts out the true signals of his invisible self, becomes one of life's great privileges to know. Such a person is the salt of the earth, the light of our lives, and the joy of real friendship. It is a wonderful thing to meet and know a person of integrity so great as to be everlastingly trustworthy. Writing of Plato's portrait of a philosopher, Raphael Demos describes in his own words the ideal man that Plato brings out in his dialogues: The most important question we can ask about a man is whether he be genuine or not... --- As I read this it made me consider my own friends, the salt of the earth, particularly those in present company. To know those who approach the state of being everlastingly trustworthy is truly one of the greatest privileges and joys of my life. I humbly strive to reciprocate, that my friends may ever find me worthy of their trust. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Integrity
The most important question we can ask about a man is whether he be genuine or not. Is he authentic, does he ring true? The function of thought in life is to impart truth of character to man The philosopher hates the inner lie above everything else. The outer lie is the falsehood in words, arising out of the inner lie, and is not altogether unmixed falsehood. But the inner is the veritable falsehood entering into the most vital parts of the soul; it consists of ignorance or rather the belief that we know when we do not. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Finding favor with God
Those who keep the commandments, striving to live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, find favor in his sight. Their course of conduct is pleasing to him, and they are in a state of grace; that is, because of their personal righteousness Deity pours out his love, mercy, and goodness upon them in bountiful measure. They are guided by the Spirit, have power to work miracles and do good, and frequently taste the good things of the world to come. To fall from grace is to turn from such a course of obedience so that the goodness of God departs and the former saint is left to his own power and strength. God is no longer pleased with his conduct and no longer pours out upon him special blessings. Thus the Prophet in discussing whether a person who is once in grace is always in grace, or whether having fallen from grace he can return again to that blessed state, says: If men have received the good word of God, and tasted of the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, it is impossible to renew them again, seeing they have crucified the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; so there is a possibility of falling away; you could not be renewed again, and the power of Elijah cannot seal against this sin, for this is a reserve made in the seals and power of the priesthood. (Teachings, p. 339.) On the other hand, if a man is not worthy of so great a condemnation, he can repent and attain again his favored state of grace. For all faithful members of the Church, the revealed counsel is: There is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. (D. C. 20:32-34.) See Heb. 6:4-9; 10:19-39. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 2: 479.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Obtaining favor with God
When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life. It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God, and favour with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they in like manner offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Disney cartoon
Grampa Bill in Savannah wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: _Finding Nemo_ is a fun film, really entertaining and uplifting. Worth seeing. Following the fine example of one of the principals in the film, I am now learning to speak whale. === Grampa Bill comments: Read a few weeks ago that one of our mental institutions was looking for a Klingon translator. Seems that some (maybe only one) of their patients refuses (or cannot) communicate in any other language. Their might be a similar career opportunity for a whale translator.. Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah While a number of mental institutions have expressed a very strong interest in my behalf, perhaps sadly enough, they never seemed to be offering me employment opportunities. sigh // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Disney cartoon
_Finding Nemo_ is a fun film, really entertaining and uplifting. Worth seeing. Following the fine example of one of the principals in the film, I am now learning to speak whale. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Conditional love
Sometimes the discussions in the Church regarding the nature and extent of God's love occur in reaction to the positions of others. Those, for instance, who feel God's love is unconditional--as if somehow his caring for us made Him uncaring about our sins--see themselves moving to the starboard side in order to balance those who feel God's love is severely conditional, and vice versa. God loves all His spirit children. How could it be otherwise, since He is a perfect Father? In that sense His love is universal and everlasting for all of His children. But He does not and cannot love our wickedness: For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance (DC 1:31). He does not and cannot approve of the things we do that are wrong, nor will He say on Judgment Day, Well done, thou good and faithful servant to those who have been wicked or who have been poor performers. His perfect integrity and His perfected attributes of truth and justice would not permit it. Nor can our Heavenly Father reward us evenly, because our deeds and our degrees of righteousness are so very uneven. Of necessity, therefore, we are told there are many mansions in His house, and only of the comparative few can it be said, all that my Father hath shall be given (John 14:2; DC 84:38). It is especially of such faithful that Paul writes: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? . . . Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35, 39.) It is because God loves us, however, that He seeks with such vigor and long-suffering to separate us from our sins, which He hates. He continues to care for us even when He cannot approve of us. Yet ultimately we cannot go where He is unless He fully approves of us. This outcome, however, reflects the consequences of divine justice, not His love for us, which persists. Likewise it is because He loves us that His redemptive arm is lengthened out all the day long (2 Nephi 28:32). Yet even after all of His outreaching and loving long-suffering, there will follow the judgment and justice of God. Thus His long-suffering is not indulgence masquerading as mercy. God will never stop loving all of His spirit children, including those who go to the telestial kingdom, a kingdom of glory which, because of God's generosity, surpasses all understanding (DC 76:89). Thus the hard, cold fact is that how we use our moral agency does not result in a withdrawal of God's love but does determine the ways and the degrees to which a loving God can express His love of us. Only the most righteous will receive His praise, His approval, and enjoy His presence. These supernal blessings are conditionally bestowed. However, as a perfect Father He loves all of His spirit children! The more we understand His character and His love, the more poignant is any separation from Him. (Neal A. Maxwell, _If Thou Endure It Well_, p. 34) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Conditional love
Excerpts from: Russell M. Nelson, Divine Love, Ensign, Feb. 2003, 20 While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. The word does not appear in the scriptures. On the other hand, many verses affirm that the higher levels of love the Father and the Son feel for each of usand certain divine blessings stemming from that loveare conditional. Before citing examples, it is well to recognize various forms of conditional expression in the scriptures... Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since Gods love is unconditional, He will love me regardless ; or Since God is love, He will love me unconditionally, regardless These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehors fallacious and unconditional concepts. In contrast to Nehors teachings, divine love warns us that wickedness never was happiness. Jesus explains, Come unto me and be ye saved; except ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Does this mean the Lord does not love the sinner? Of course not. Divine love is infinite and universal. The Savior loves both saints and sinners. The Apostle John affirmed, We love him, because he first loved us. And Nephi, upon seeing in vision the Lords mortal ministry, declared: The world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men. We know the expansiveness of the Redeemers love because He died that all who die might live again. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Carob beans
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- Don't we already know that John the Baptist ate locusts and honey? Locusts are definitely animal protein, not plants. --- Apparently some believe locusts to be a mistranslation perpetuated from very early manuscripts. In certain early historical writings the phrase is found as honey, and cakes made with oil and honey. The change is attributed to misreading the Greek enkis, meaning cake oil, to akris which means locusts. But of course this is all Greek to me. Supposedly this is also consistent with what scholars of the Dead Sea Scrolls have learned quite recently about the strict rules of the Essenes community, of which some believe John the Baptist was an associate. Some of John's other peculiar habits seem to have interesting parallels with the Essenes culture. FWIW. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Race discussion
I've always wanted to pursue a serious discussion of race issues, but I am pretty sure we can't talk about such things without making someone mad. Who would take offense if we discussed Laminites in the Book of Mormon? Can you explain why? Perhaps I'm just an ignorant white man who can never understand. Sadness --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Race discussion
I could probably work on spelling Lamanites correctly. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Race discussion
Intesting article in today's Deseret News. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450022058,00.html? PAGE, Ariz. For more than 20 years, R.D.'s Drive-In has been serving burgers, fries and shakes here by Lake Powell, all in relative calm and obscurity. That changed when customers and employees began complaining that other workers were making lewd comments about them in Navajo. Worried about losing business, the owners asked all employees to sign an agreement to speak English only, except when a customer could not understand English. If you feel unable to comply with this requirement, the new work rule said, you may find another job. Here's a bit from the EEOC guidelines with reference to English-only rules. EEOC Title VII prohibits employers from discriminating on the basis of national origin. (Notice how they weasled around using the word race again :-)) 1606.7 Speak-English-only rules. (a) When applied at all times. A rule requiring employees to speak only English at all times in the workplace is a burdensome term and condition of employment. The primary language of an individual is often an essential national origin characteristic. Prohibiting employees at all times, in the workplace, from speaking their primary language or the language they speak most comfortably, disadvantages an individual's employment opportunities on the basis of national origin. It may also create an atmosphere of inferiority, isolation and intimidation based on national origin which could result in a discriminatory working environment.7 (FOOTNOTE) Therefore, the Commission will presume that such a rule violates title VII and will closely scrutinize it. (FOOTNOTE) 7See CD 71 - 446 (1970), CCH EEOC Decisions 6173, 2 FEP Cases, 1127; CD 72 - 0281 (1971), CCH EEOC Decisions 6293. (b) When applied only at certain times. An employer may have a rule requiring that employees speak only in English at certain times where the employer can show that the rule is justified by business necessity. (c) Notice of the rule. It is common for individuals whose primary language is not English to inadvertently change from speaking English to speaking their primary language. Therefore, if an employer believes it has a business necessity for a speak-English-only rule at certain times, the employer should inform its employees of the general circumstances when speaking only in English is required and of the consequences of violating the rule. If an employer fails to effectively notify its employees of the rule and makes an adverse employment decision against an individual based on a violation of the rule, the Commission will consider the employer's application of the rule as evidence of discrimination on the basis of national origin. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
