RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Horn, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 3 maart 2003 3:49 Aan: Killer Bs Discussion Onderwerp: RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? Not to mention the Holodeck Interactive Edition of the _Kama Sutra_... GRIN What would Sonja say about this, h??? She would say something like Lemme in! Don't keep it all to yourselves! I wanna play too! :-) Jeroen So many games, so little time van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Doug wrote: GSV Ancient Submariner John H. replied: Do you rhyme? Sorry, I'm stuck in a cramped middle seat on a flight from Atlanta to Dallas and couldn't resist. Do you now how hard it is to type when the guy in front of you has his seat all the way back?!? Very? ;-) Rime is an old form of the word rhyme, but rime is also A coating of ice, as on grass and trees, formed when extremely cold water droplets freeze almost instantly on a cold surface according to www.dictionary.com. Given that _Rime of the Ancient Mariner_ talks about going far south to very cold regions... here's an excerpt: The ice was here, the ice was there, The ice was all around : It cracked and growled, and roared and howled, Like noises in a swound ! ... I always wondered if the title _Rime of the Ancient Mariner_ was a pun. Does anyone know enough about Coleridge to know if he's the kind of guy that would make that kind of pun? Reggie Bautista Driven south to the land of the snow and ice To a place where nobody's been Through the snow fog flies on the albatross Hailed in God's name, hoping good luck it brings. -- Rime of the Ancient Mariner as sung by Iron Maiden _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd love to have one, but I'm afraid the electricity bill would be too high. Playing the Holodeck version of games such as Half-Life or Unreal would make gaming so much more... interesting... :-) Not to mention the Holodeck Interactive Edition of the _Kama Sutra_... GRIN Jeroen So many games, so little time van Baardwijk Makes you wonder where did Wesley Crusher spend his free time, after he was done saving the Enterprise. (Which he did way too many times, methinks). ;-) JJ _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
J. van Baardwijk wrote: Not to mention the Holodeck Interactive Edition of the _Kama Sutra_... See, that's the problem. To paraphrase Dennis Miller, if some ensign can turn on a switch, crack open a Romulan ale, and have Seven of Nine do the naked mambo on his johnson, why the heck would he ever do any work? :-) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 13:04 2-3-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote: I'd love to have one, but I'm afraid the electricity bill would be too high. Playing the Holodeck version of games such as Half-Life or Unreal would make gaming so much more... interesting... :-) Not to mention the Holodeck Interactive Edition of the _Kama Sutra_... GRIN Jeroen So many games, so little time van Baardwijk Makes you wonder where did Wesley Crusher spend his free time, after he was done saving the Enterprise. He'd probably get (and make use of) his share of Holodeck access -- but I'm not sure if I really *want* to know what kind of programs a kid of his age would be running there... Jeroen XXX van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
- Original Message - From: Steve Sloan II [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 10:48 AM Subject: Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? Doug Pensinger wrote: GSV Ancient Submariner With a penguin hanging around your neck? ;-) ALBATROSS xponent Monty Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Jose wrote: Makes you wonder where did Wesley Crusher spend his free time, after he was done saving the Enterprise. ACK! MY EYES! MY EYES! Oh, sorry... did anyone else just go to a really scary visual place? Reggie Bautista Buffy Quote Maru _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sun, 2 Mar 2003, Jim Sharkey wrote: See, that's the problem. To paraphrase Dennis Miller, if some ensign can turn on a switch, crack open a Romulan ale, and have Seven of Nine do the naked mambo on his johnson, why the heck would he ever do any work? :-) So the really big question is, who's the poor slob who has to clean the holodeck? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd love to have one, but I'm afraid the electricity bill would be too high. Playing the Holodeck version of games such as Half-Life or Unreal would make gaming so much more... interesting... :-) Not to mention the Holodeck Interactive Edition of the _Kama Sutra_... GRIN Jeroen So many games, so little time van Baardwijk Makes you wonder where did Wesley Crusher spend his free time, after he was done saving the Enterprise. (Which he did way too many times, methinks). ;-) On at least one of those times, didn't he have to save the Enterprise from some goof-up that he himself was responsible for? You *don't* let a kid goof around with a starship. Period. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: On Sun, 2 Mar 2003, Jim Sharkey wrote: See, that's the problem. To paraphrase Dennis Miller, if some ensign can turn on a switch, crack open a Romulan ale, and have Seven of Nine do the naked mambo on his johnson, why the heck would he ever do any work? :-) So the really big question is, who's the poor slob who has to clean the holodeck? Ewww... I imagine the holodeck could be made to be self-cleaning, but I'm not sure which designer would be the first to volunteer to think of that feature. :) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] On at least one of those times, didn't he have to save the Enterprise from some goof-up that he himself was responsible for? You *don't* let a kid goof around with a starship. Period. Julia How a starship that represents the prime technological advance of its' time can be so easy to manage, that a kid can rearrange its' primary memory core, is beyond me. I don't know how the writers or Rodenberry expected us to swallow that. One thing is to willingfully suspend all disbelief to enjoy fiction and fantasy; another is to push the limits of credibility and taste to a point of no return. JJ _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 02:44 PM 3/2/03 -0800, Doug Pensinger wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I preferred to spend my military days hurtling through the air at hundreds of miles per hour in a flimsy tin can rather than moving hundreds of feet under the water at a few knots in a flimsy tin can . . . Well now, flimsy is relative isn't it? How would your flimsy tin can do at test depth (600ft)? (No use asking how mine would do hurtling through the air, it couldn't happen). You can get anything to hurtle through the air if you put a big enough engine on it. Landing may be another matter. -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 11:15 PM 3/2/03 +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] On at least one of those times, didn't he have to save the Enterprise from some goof-up that he himself was responsible for? You *don't* let a kid goof around with a starship. Period. Julia How a starship that represents the prime technological advance of its' time can be so easy to manage, that a kid can rearrange its' primary memory core, is beyond me. I don't know how the writers or Rodenberry expected us to swallow that. What was Roddenberry's middle name? Should Be A Rhetorical Question Maru -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Doug Pensinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GSV Ancient Submariner Do you rhyme? Sorry, I'm stuck in a cramped middle seat on a flight from Atlanta to Dallas and couldn't resist. Do you now how hard it is to type when the guy in front of you has his seat all the way back?!? - jmh Ouch Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: J. van Baardwijk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd love to have one, but I'm afraid the electricity bill would be too high. Playing the Holodeck version of games such as Half-Life or Unreal would make gaming so much more... interesting... :-) I'll wait for the Holodeck version of Solitaire. No wait... Not to mention the Holodeck Interactive Edition of the _Kama Sutra_... GRIN What would Sonja say about this, h??? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Horn, John wrote: From: J. van Baardwijk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Not to mention the Holodeck Interactive Edition of the _Kama Sutra_... GRIN What would Sonja say about this, h??? Probably Hurry up, slowpoke! I'm lonely in here! At least if he's lucky. :-) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Interesting! I never saw many of the animated episodes, though I read a number of the James Blish short stories based on them. IIRC, Alan Dean Foster did the books based on TAS, while Blish adapted the TOS episodes, and wrote one original novel entitled Spock Must Die! Ohhh, you're right! I'm getting this stuff from my childhood all mixed up in my mind. (Which, as they say, is the first thing to go.) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] If I have to choose between coding COBOL and coding RPG, I would much rather go for COBOL. I feel I can exercise a lot more control with a computer programming language that uses instructions that resemble natural language. RPG is not really a programming language as such. As its name--Report Program Generator--says, it's designed to do one thing: create programs inside the computer to generate reports of the type businesses seem to live on. COBOL (COmmon Business Oriented Language) was designed to be a full programming language for business applications (though for non-business applications it may not be all that great). -- Ronn! :) I hate to digress, but RPG is openly defined as a programming language. The fact that it has all the tools used for generating reports as its' primary application doesn't deny the fact that it has all the logical and control structures embedded in a programming language. JJ Who sweated his way thru RPG as one of the core curriculum courses of his CS major.. _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 11:24 PM 3/1/03 +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. One of the things which made it better than TNG, IMO. I can see why you say that. The lack of another piece of technology that can go wrong will force the writers, if they are competent enough, to come up with creative storylines. Plots where technology becomes a villain go against the writer's bible of Trek, and we can see clearly why that would be. However, a holodeck is an extremely cool idea. Seeing one in action is a dream in all of our minds. One of the things that atracts me to the first season of TNG is the sense of wonder inspired by the awesome technological advances present in that incarnation of Trek. The holodeck, when put to intelligent use, makes for an interesting tool. (FWIW, I have always hated with a passion books/stories/etc. which end with He woke up and it was all a dream, When watching episodes that incurr in those mistakes, one is left feeling like a fool. The viewer has been taken for a ride. Precisely. What I detest is such stories where, with only a couple of pages of the book or a couple of minutes of screen time remaining, the protagonist is in a situation from which I can see no way s/he can escape consistent with the rules which govern the world in which the book takes place, and I am literally asking myself How is the writer possibly going to get the protagonist out of this? then I turn the page to read S/he woke up and it was all a dream or the bald-headed captain says in a deep, authoritative voice, Computer, end program and the holodeck grid reappears. It's a cop-out and a cheat on the part of the writer, and I have been taken for a ride, sometimes to the point that I not only want my money back but I would like to hunt down the writer and torture him slowly for at least as long as I have wasted on his creation. Or, when it comes to things like the holodeck, it may be clear from the beginning that the story is taking place on the holodeck. Then when things get dicey, I am wondering What lame excuse will they use this time as to why (1) the 'end program' command will not work and (2) the 'safety protocols' will not work, but otherwise the simulation continues unchanged, except that it won't stop and it really can kill you? In such a situation you know that Our Heroes do not have to actually figure out what is going on and react to it, just to find some way to survive until at the last minute of the show Geordi somehow repairs the computer. I agree with you that the holodeck has great potential, as a training tool (when they use it as a shooting range or when Worf practices Klingon battle moves), and some form of entertainment would be almost essential on board such a ship (though Network Standards and Practices would never allow them to do a story showing the most common form of entertainment likely to be played out using such a device, and indeed they probably insist that somewhere in the holodeck programming is a filter to reject all such programs). But when I watch a movie which takes place on a nuclear submarine (perhaps the closest contemporary environment to that of a starship), I don't want to spend the entire hour or two of my time simply watching the crew sitting in the wardroom watching the weekly movie (or thinking or not thinking about what crew members may be doing in the privacy of the head). Such things may (or may not) be referred to in passing, but the primary reason for watching a submarine movie is for the military action, not what the crew does for entertainment when there is no action. FWIW, I do not object to all dream sequences, either: just the ones where it is clear that the writer has no idea how to write a decent story. -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 11:29 PM 3/1/03 +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] If I have to choose between coding COBOL and coding RPG, I would much rather go for COBOL. I feel I can exercise a lot more control with a computer programming language that uses instructions that resemble natural language. RPG is not really a programming language as such. As its name--Report Program Generator--says, it's designed to do one thing: create programs inside the computer to generate reports of the type businesses seem to live on. COBOL (COmmon Business Oriented Language) was designed to be a full programming language for business applications (though for non-business applications it may not be all that great). -- Ronn! :) I hate to digress, but RPG is openly defined as a programming language. Thirty years ago, which is the only time I had anything to do with RPG, I heard it defined the way I described it. But they may well have changed the definition since then . . . -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: But when I watch a movie which takes place on a nuclear submarine (perhaps the closest contemporary environment to that of a starship), I don't want to spend the entire hour or two of my time simply watching the crew sitting in the wardroom watching the weekly movie The crew wouldn't be in the wardroom, they'd be in the crew's mess. And they show movies every night (or used to, eons ago) 8^) Doug GSV Ancient Submariner ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 07:50 PM 3/1/03 -0800, Doug Pensinger wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: But when I watch a movie which takes place on a nuclear submarine (perhaps the closest contemporary environment to that of a starship), I don't want to spend the entire hour or two of my time simply watching the crew sitting in the wardroom watching the weekly movie The crew wouldn't be in the wardroom, they'd be in the crew's mess. And they show movies every night (or used to, eons ago) 8^) Corrections noted. Thank you. (Although I don't think it makes a major difference in my example. ;-) ) Doug GSV Ancient Submariner I preferred to spend my military days hurtling through the air at hundreds of miles per hour in a flimsy tin can rather than moving hundreds of feet under the water at a few knots in a flimsy tin can . . . ;-) -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 01:10 AM 2/25/03 +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. One of the things which made it better than TNG, IMO. Does the continuity of The Animated Series count? They did have the holodeck there! Courtesy of DC Fontana, I believe. :) TAS also boasted the first holodeck goes bananas and tries to kill the crew episode. See above. (FWIW, I have always hated with a passion books/stories/etc. which end with He woke up and it was all a dream, and most of the holodeck episodes are essentially that.) -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 11:07 AM 2/26/03 +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't particularly have a problem with COBOL; in fact, I like it a good sight better than some *other* languages to which I've been exposed, like FORTRAN (I know, I know, they do completely different things). Reggie Bautista PL/I was IBM's attempt to create a language which could do both business applications (like COBOL) and scientific/mathematical applications (like FORTRAN). Unfortunately, by the time it came out, no one wanted to re-write all the programs in COBOL and FORTRAN that they had already spent many years writing and maintaining. If I have to choose between coding COBOL and coding RPG, I would much rather go for COBOL. I feel I can exercise a lot more control with a computer programming language that uses instructions that resemble natural language. RPG is not really a programming language as such. As its name--Report Program Generator--says, it's designed to do one thing: create programs inside the computer to generate reports of the type businesses seem to live on. COBOL (COmmon Business Oriented Language) was designed to be a full programming language for business applications (though for non-business applications it may not be all that great). -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: All Things Trek was Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 10:30 PM 2/26/03 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: IIRC, in _Genesis II_ Hunt was originally from not too far in our future, and was put into suspended animation (accidentally, I think) in an underground cave and was revived 150 or 200 years later, after a nuclear holocaust devastated the planet. He finds a group of people who are being oppressed or are in danger of being oppressed, and together they try to overthrow the oppressors (who use a rod-shaped electronic weapon with multiple functions) and put Earth back the way it was before. I think there were even some altered or mutated humans, stronger that us normal types, much like _Andromeda_'s Nietzscheans. With two navels. -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 07:28 AM 2/25/03 -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. Marvin Long Does the continuity of The Animated Series count? They did have the holodeck there! Courtesy of DC Fontana, I believe. :) Interesting! I never saw many of the animated episodes, though I read a number of the James Blish short stories based on them. IIRC, Alan Dean Foster did the books based on TAS, while Blish adapted the TOS episodes, and wrote one original novel entitled Spock Must Die! -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Marvin wrote: And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. Ronn! replied: One of the things which made it better than TNG, IMO. I actually really liked two of the holodeck episodes. The first one was season one's 11001001, the episode with the aliens called Bynars who hijack the ship after making sure *almost* everyone is evacuated, except for a couple of people who they think should be able to reboot or reload their planetary computer system. I thought their plan was very clever, and I particularly loved the holodeck character they created to keep Riker busy, Minuet. The other was Elementary, Dear Data from season two in which we are introduced to a holographic Moriarty. While I have a problem with the idea of the ship's computer being capable of programming such an intelligent AI, the rest of that episode is quite entertaining despite the fact that Dr. Pulaski is featured somewhat prominently. The sixth season followup Ship in a Bottle had a very _Matrix_y ending, but something about the story logic of that one bothered me too, although I can't remember exactly what. I was never much of a fan of the Dixon Hill episodes (I liked the concept of the holonovel, but something about the Dixon Hill stories just never worked for me), but some of the other uses of the holodeck made sense to me (training, recreation of crime scenes, simulation of technical problems -- although I'm also not a big fan of the whole Leah Brahms thing). Ronn!, given the amount of very convenient and very made-up tech on the show, is there anything in particular about the technology of the holodecks to which you object, or do you just not like the particular stories that were written around it? Reggie Bautista IDIC Maru _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: All Things Trek was Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 10:16 PM 2/28/03 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: I wrote: I think there were even some altered or mutated humans, stronger that us normal types, much like _Andromeda_'s Nietzscheans. Ronn! replied: With two navels. LOL! I had completely forgotten about that. How did they explain *that* particular mutation? I don't recall what _scientific_ explanation they had for it (perhaps someone else will). However, the obvious explanation was that it gave them an excuse to dress their female characters in midriff-bearing outfits. -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Ronn! wrote: (FWIW, I have always hated with a passion books/stories/etc. which end with He woke up and it was all a dream, and most of the holodeck episodes are essentially that.) OK, somehow I didn't see this line in your email originally. Please feel free to ignore my question about why you don't like holodeck episodes. :-) Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 10:55 PM 2/28/03 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: Ronn! wrote: (FWIW, I have always hated with a passion books/stories/etc. which end with He woke up and it was all a dream, and most of the holodeck episodes are essentially that.) OK, somehow I didn't see this line in your email originally. Please feel free to ignore my question about why you don't like holodeck episodes. :-) Okay. FWIW, I hadn't yet responded to that question because I was trying to think of a better way to explain my aversion to them than the line you quote above, without success so far . . . -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't particularly have a problem with COBOL; in fact, I like it a good sight better than some *other* languages to which I've been exposed, like FORTRAN (I know, I know, they do completely different things). Reggie Bautista If I have to choose between coding COBOL and coding RPG, I would much rather go for COBOL. I feel I can exercise a lot more control with a computer programming language that uses instructions that resemble natural language. JJ _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Wednesday, February 26, 2003, at 01:53 am, Reggie Bautista wrote: William T. Goodall wrote: Or of course 'Once More With Feeling' from BtVS series 6... My wife made stop playing that around her when it got to the point that either one of us could sing any of the three or four lines that are all going at the same time in Walk Through the Fire. :-) Reggie Bautista I think this line's mostly filler Maru I got hold of a copy of the 25 minute pitch episode Joss Whedon used to sell the series the other day. It is basically an abridged version of what became ep 1.1 'Welcome to the Hell Mouth'. Harmony is one of the Cordettes, and even Jonathon shows up in the queue outside the Bronze. *Except* - Buffy is a brunette, and Willow is played by a different actress. Weird. And, with the exception of SMG and CC, everyone's character is slightly off pitch for what they settled on in the series. Interesting. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.scattersoft.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 20:22 24-2-2003 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. -- E. W. Dijkstra: Ah, Dijkstra. I saw him on a panel discussion once. He insisted that all computer programs should be proven, or verified, before use, and that he wouldn't use a program that hadn't been. Then, when pressed, he admitted not using a computer. :) He died recently. Can't remember which month now. There was a big article about him in the local paper. Edsger W. Dijkstra died at home in the Dutch town of Nuenen on August 6, 2002 at the age of 72. He died of cancer. Dijkstra was survived by his wife, Ria, and three children. Obituary at the CWI website: http://www.cwi.nl/cwi/press-releases/2002/Dijkstra-obituary.html Press release from the University of Texas at Austin: http://www.utexas.edu/admin/opa/news/02newsreleases/nr_200208/nr_dijkstra020807.html Jeroen Life goes on van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: Marvin wrote: Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html which has the quote as Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When I was looking for that quote to post it, I found not 1, not 2, but 3 pages that stated it as ...of the incompetent. And now I can't find any. I'm guessing Johnson's phrase has been riffed on and paraphrased so many times (cf Salvor Hardin) that *lots* of people misremember it. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Don't worry. We like you *because* you're a scoundrel. ;) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ahhh...I had the 1701 ERTL model for a long time - I still have a die-cast TOS Enterprise that shoots little yellow round photon torpedos and has a detachable shuttle. I bought it from Sears in the seventies with a $20 bill I found lying on the ground in the Fort Worth Botanical Gardens. Any idea how much it is worth now? ;-) Not really. Lemme go play with Google... [swirly swirly swirly swirly swirly] ...ok, in mint condition it looks like this toy by Dinky might go for US$80-100 or so. Based on the small sample of sites I viewed, mint condition is pretty hard to find. Mine is hardly in mint condition, but it does have something going for it -- I still have three of the plastic photon torpedoes, which most others don't seem to have any, and nothing is broken, although the decals are worn and the white plastic has faded in places. Whoops - no sooner do I write that than I find this - Oh, this is sweet. Very tempting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=3116806456category=1187 I remember reading that Rodenberry specifically dictated against creating an atmosphere that would possibly breed another Kirk/Spock/McCoy three-headed monster. Deep down, Rodenberry resented the power Shatner and Nimoy had over the episodes, etc. It's in their contract!! Paramount cannot do anything to the characters of Kirk and Spock without the approval of the actors who portray them. Not even printing a picture to which they object. Ha! I can see that. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. Marvin Long Does the continuity of The Animated Series count? They did have the holodeck there! Courtesy of DC Fontana, I believe. :) Interesting! I never saw many of the animated episodes, though I read a number of the James Blish short stories based on them. I guess I missed that one. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: Unfortunately, 16+ years of ST:TNG episodes on re-runs aren't helping that. Maybe somebody in Paramount hopes that if they re-run the episodes long enough, the characters will achieve the same legendary status. Tough luck. 16+ years$#!*, now I feel old! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] That is the first thing that struck me as odd in Enterprise. Capt. Archer also follows this style of command. OK. I've only watched a few episodes of Enterprise before I decided it wasn't worth the effort to find it (we've no UPN affiliate in St. Louis). But it seemed to me that Archer did everything *but* command. Everytime you saw him he was sitting in his room playing with his dog or shaving or dressing or doing something like that. Anything but actually *working*! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: Unfortunately, 16+ years of ST:TNG episodes on re-runs aren't helping that. Maybe somebody in Paramount hopes that if they re-run the episodes long enough, the characters will achieve the same legendary status. Tough luck. 16+ years$#!*, now I feel old! nitpick Actually, it's only 15+ years. The series started in the fall of 1987, so that's less than 16 years ago, but more than 15. If I'm to believe the info at imdb.com, the first episode aired on September 26, 1987. /nitpick You can still feel old, though. Remember piling into one Jester dorm room to watch it with a zillion other geeks? :) Julia who would also pile into a Jester dorm room to watch TOS reruns some afternoons with about a half-dozen geeks or so ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Marvin Long, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unfortunately, 16+ years of ST:TNG episodes on re-runs aren't helping that. Maybe somebody in Paramount hopes that if they re-run the episodes long enough, the characters will achieve the same legendary status. Tough luck. 16+ years$#!*, now I feel old! 16 years! Wow. When I first read that I automatically put TOS in place of TNG in my mind. Of course, that would be closer to 35 years of re-runs. Gah! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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At 08:22 PM 2/24/2003 -0600, you wrote: Reggie Bautista wrote: Marvin wrote: Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html which has the quote as Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When I was looking for that quote to post it, I found not 1, not 2, but 3 pages that stated it as ...of the incompetent. And now I can't find any. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Reggie Bautista The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. -- E. W. Dijkstra: I didn't see this originally. What did he mean by this, what's wrong with COBOL? In my shop they have tested other systems and nothing can perform the functions with the speed needed. Kevin T. - VRWC ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Kevin Tarr wrote: At 08:22 PM 2/24/2003 -0600, you wrote: Reggie Bautista wrote: Marvin wrote: Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html which has the quote as Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When I was looking for that quote to post it, I found not 1, not 2, but 3 pages that stated it as ...of the incompetent. And now I can't find any. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Reggie Bautista The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. -- E. W. Dijkstra: I didn't see this originally. What did he mean by this, what's wrong with COBOL? In my shop they have tested other systems and nothing can perform the functions with the speed needed. Kevin T. - VRWC I think he was a fanatic about the right way to program, and COBOL probably had everything he thought was wrong. Take it with whatever quantity of salt you deem necessary to take such a statement from someone who didn't use computers. (I only saw him the one time, but he struck me as being one of those [EMAIL PROTECTED] sorts of geniuses then.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
I quoted: The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. -- E. W. Dijkstra: Kevin replied: I didn't see this originally. What did he mean by this, what's wrong with COBOL? In my shop they have tested other systems and nothing can perform the functions with the speed needed. I don't particularly have a problem with COBOL; in fact, I like it a good sight better than some *other* languages to which I've been exposed, like FORTRAN (I know, I know, they do completely different things). I just happened to run across this quote and found it amusing, and since there has been some talk about different programming languages recently on-list, I thought I'd post it. Reggie Bautista _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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Bryon wrote: Even though I wasn't enjoying it very much, I watched Voyager out of force of (ST-watching) habit up until the (second season?) episode Threshold, which was the worst, most god-awful piece of rediculous crud I'd ever seen come out of the ST franchise. Far worse than Spock's Brain, IMHO. Threshold = Worst. Episode. Ever. Fortunately, they could only go up from there! Bryon again: IMHO, the network execs think ST fans are stupid and couldn't handle/appreciate anything too complex/controversial/cutting edge/new. When DS9 ended, Ron Moore moved on to Voyager, and he tried to make some changes and add new ideas, so they booted him. I think those are the reasons why the ST franchise is dying. As you can see, I'm a little bitter about the Star Trek franchise. It had/has the potential to be *so* good, and yet I've been so constantly disappointed, that I've mostly given up. And now it looks like the SciFi Channel is moving in the same direction. Tracker is *awful*. And don't get me started on Black Scorpion from a couple of years ago. I wrote: Or did you in fact post that info? It all blurs together after a while :-) Bryon replied: That was me that posted that. I noted the irony that CBS milked Roddenberry for his ideas when they made Lost In Space, while Paramount milked JMS for ideas when they made DS9. Sorry for the misattribution. Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
When DS9 ended, Ron Moore moved on to Voyager, and he tried to make some changes and add new ideas, so they booted him. I think those are the reasons why the ST franchise is dying. As I stated before, Moore's Dyson Sphere + 1000 identical Enterprises should have been the basis of the first Generation movie. So not one of Moore's episodes can be used as the basis for a movie. ++sigh++ William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
William T. Goodall wrote: Or of course 'Once More With Feeling' from BtVS series 6... My wife made stop playing that around her when it got to the point that either one of us could sing any of the three or four lines that are all going at the same time in Walk Through the Fire. :-) Reggie Bautista I think this line's mostly filler Maru _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: You can still feel old, though. Remember piling into one Jester dorm room to watch it with a zillion other geeks? :) Ah, memories. A dozen plus people chanting macho macho Picard (or whoever's in a fight at that moment, except Worf, who despite his machismo is inevitably beaten by little old ladies and other such characters) is hardly to be missed. In retrospect it's more proof that we really just wanted to watch Kirk conking aliens with big foam rocks, no matter what anybody says. :-) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Bryon Daly wrote: TNG featured more personal character growth than TOS did (which isn't saying much, really), but not as much as it should/could have had. For every The Inner Light episode (IMHO the single best trek episode ever), there were 10 episodes something like Geordi gets killed then later resurrected, the reset button gets pushed, and it's never brought up again. The powers that run the ST franchise seem anchored to producing stand-alone episodes and fear continuity/character evolution; only occasionally daring to experiment with it in a deliberate way. Contrast this with Babylon 5, where the characters at the end have grown/changed in dramatic but believable ways gradually over the course of the show. Yup. (Notice how I'm salivating over the B5 DVDs and ignoring the TNG DVDs...) As for why some people like TNG vs hate TOS, I think a lot has to do with the fact that TOS is almost 20 years older than TNG, and it's dated by many of the same attitudes and assumptions of other 60's TV, like, say, Wagon Train. (Which is what Rodenberry was aiming for - a Wagon Train to the Stars). I've never watched Wagon Train. To me it seems as though TOS is more like an outer-space version of the Outer Limits with a recurring main cast. For example, while Uhura may have been groundbreaking at the time, the role of women in TOS is largely as love interest for Kirk, to be shown in those godawful soft-filter closeups. And when the show had a social/moral point to make, it wasn't very subtle about it, clubbing the point home (again, similar to other 60's TV). Those are good points. TNG was never very subtle about its messages, though, either. And its feminism always struck me as a little strained (hm, booty for Kirk or 7 years of Troi...hard call there) - almost like, Ok, we have a bigger selection of rotating stereotypes - happy now? Still, TNG does do better than TOS in a lot of ways in this regard. My wife, who's not a SF fan at all, can tolerate TNG, but honestly thinks that TOS is campy, and actually intended to be so, despite my efforts to convice her it was a serious show. See, TNG falls into unintentional camp a lot of the time, too, I think...it's just more contemporary camp. Kirk may get more than his fair share of voluptuous green-skinned women, but at least he doesn't leer and wag his tongue like Riker whenever the words shore leave are uttered. And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: TOS is embedded in the collective consciousness in a way TNG can never even aspire to be. I remember working as IT in San Juan's Public Works Dept. I used to have ERTL's NCC1701-A model Ahhh...I had the 1701 ERTL model for a long time - I still have a die-cast TOS Enterprise that shoots little yellow round photon torpedos and has a detachable shuttle. I bought it from Sears in the seventies with a $20 bill I found lying on the ground in the Fort Worth Botanical Gardens. proudly displayed next to my server as an in-joke with my programmers, since we used to call the old server Enterprise. On one occasion, one of the carpenters from the department was working on an addition to my office, and the minute he walks in, he stares at the model, and he goes, Wait.. isn't that Captain Kirk's ship? From Star Trek?. Needless to say, I was very pleasantly surprised. That's how far TOS has traveled; if the Enterprise has gone all the way into the minds of people from all levels of society and all walks of life exchange points of view about science fiction and its' impact, then it really *has* gone where no man has gone before. Cool! The magic of Star Trek: TOS is in no small part due to, in the words of Nick Meyer, those characters. TOS works due to the familiarity of its' characters with the audience. TNG, nor Voyager, nor DS9, nor Enterprise (I did get to see my first episode wednesday!!) have been able to reproduce the chemistry found between Kirk and company. One of my favorite episodes of DS9 is Trials and Tribbleations. Guess why. :) In the opening sequences of this episode, the writers try, in vain, to introduce a concept in DS9 which is almost unfamiliar to DS9: banter in the bridge. A vain attempt to imitate the spirit of familiarity that we found in TOS, but it falls flat. This can never be duplicated. I've wondered if putting a truly accomplished actor like Patrick Stewart at the helm ruined things in this regard. Gravitas tends to kill familiarity, and it seems to me that as long as the commanding officer's prime requisite is the ability to project an air of august wisdom and authority - which Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew tried to re-create, I think - the surrounding characters are likely to fade into the background. Lots of TNG fans like to point out what a better actor Stewart is compared to Shatner - but I've never heard anyone argue that Picard/Crusher/X (X being Riker or Data or Troi or Worf or ..?) made a better core ensemble than Kirk/Spock/McCoy. The more I think about it, the more the TOS cast feels like a group of sort of blue-collar colleagues. It feels as though, in off hours, you could expect Kirk to kick back with some redshirts and smoke a cigarette and practice judo moves. Picard is by contrast an aristocrat, isolated not just by rank but by manners and breeding from the relative commoners beneath him. Kirk is uncomfortable as an admiral, a fish out of water, whereas Picard sometimes seems like he's slumming (which Stewart was, technically, but oh well) by condescending to command just one starship at a time. Also, the scripts of TOS were written, in great part, by great SciFi writers (Ellison, et al) and great SciFi minds like Gene Coon and Rodenberry who understood what SciFi was all about. TNG's Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, who have written or edited almost all of the episodes of TNG and its' re-incarnations, in no way compare to the minds behind TOS. Michael Piller did pen some great moments of TNG, but he eventually ended up relinquished to a second or third place in the staff. Star Trek is now a franchise. I liked it better when it was a VERY good TV show, with provocative ideas that stimulated the minds of its' viewers. If TNG and its' predecessors could emulate, or duplicate, that effect, I swear to you I would NEVER turn off my TV set. Interesting. I tend to think of TOS as being (mostly) good SF that happened to be on TV; by contrast, I think of TNG as being (mostly) good TV that happened to incorporate a certain amount of SF - hence its longevity but also its recurring bouts of fluffiness. I've also seen comments in this thread related to Star Trek 5, and I'd like to say something about it as well. snip Huh! I might actually have to watch it again from this perspective. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: You don't remember Salvor Hardin, the mayor who said Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right, Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent and many other sayings, and is one of the coolest politicians in science fiction? Ok, he was very cool, and I've tended to remember the sayings if not the name. Sacrilege! Reggie Bautista Patriotism is the last refuge of the incompetent. --Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784) I thought patriotism was the last refuge of the *scoundrel.* (?) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: However, and someone out there must agree with me, *something* happened with the Trek franchise after the end of TNG and shortly after Generations was released. If I must find hard evidence of this claim, I can mention that the popularity of Trek merchandising (Paramount's hottest ever!!) started to decay in rapid numbers. Compared to what it used to be during the heydey of TNG and the Trek films, it's basically nonexistent. I think Generations had the effect of proving that of TNG's cast only Stewart had any business being on a movie screen. Of course, by the time ST:TMP came out, the original cast already included a number of cultural icons - putting them on the big screen just confirmed that status. TNG was a popular show, but as you've pointed out earlier, it was not a cast of iconic characters. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Patriotism is the last refuge of the incompetent. --Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784) I thought patriotism was the last refuge of the *scoundrel.* (?) I'm guessing that Mark Twain (?) paraphrased Samuel Johnson's quote. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Steve Sloan II wrote: Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Patriotism is the last refuge of the incompetent. --Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784) I thought patriotism was the last refuge of the *scoundrel.* (?) I'm guessing that Mark Twain (?) paraphrased Samuel Johnson's quote. Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Marvin is a robot Alberto Monteiro I prefer the term industrial mandroid, thank you. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 01:34 PM 2/24/03 -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Marvin is a robot Alberto Monteiro I prefer the term industrial mandroid, thank you. I suppose you prefer that to being a tap-dancing horse . . . -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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Marvin wrote: Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html which has the quote as Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When I was looking for that quote to post it, I found not 1, not 2, but 3 pages that stated it as ...of the incompetent. And now I can't find any. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Reggie Bautista The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. -- E. W. Dijkstra: _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 05:05:59PM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: which has the quote as Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When I was looking for that quote to post it, I found not 1, not 2, but 3 pages that stated it as ...of the incompetent. And now I can't find any. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Patriotic? Incompetent? Scoundrelish? :-) -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
I wrote: And now I can't find any. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Erik replied: Patriotic? Incompetent? Scoundrelish? :-) At least two out of the three :-) Reggie Bautista No Value Added Maru _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
--- Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Alberto Monteiro wrote: Marvin is a robot I prefer the term industrial mandroid, thank you. I suppose you prefer that to being a tap-dancing horse . . . Well, but an industrial mandroid could probably do *something* cool under the bigtop...be shot from a cannon, perhaps, or be a flying trapeze clown... Does Anyone Remember Luno the Soaring Stallion Cartoon? Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ahhh...I had the 1701 ERTL model for a long time - I still have a die-cast TOS Enterprise that shoots little yellow round photon torpedos and has a detachable shuttle. I bought it from Sears in the seventies with a $20 bill I found lying on the ground in the Fort Worth Botanical Gardens. Any idea how much it is worth now? ;-) I've wondered if putting a truly accomplished actor like Patrick Stewart at the helm ruined things in this regard. Gravitas tends to kill familiarity, and it seems to me that as long as the commanding officer's prime requisite is the ability to project an air of august wisdom and authority - which Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew tried to re-create, I think - the surrounding characters are likely to fade into the background. That is the first thing that struck me as odd in Enterprise. Capt. Archer also follows this style of command. The way I see it, Archer is presented or interpreted as a man who is worried and a tad insecure about the outcome of his mission. He didn't seem to me, at least on last week's episode, to have that air of self-confidence that Kirk had down to a science. True, that's Kirk's patented bravado, but it makes for refreshing Star Trek. :) Lots of TNG fans like to point out what a better actor Stewart is compared to Shatner - but I've never heard anyone argue that Picard/Crusher/X (X being Riker or Data or Troi or Worf or ..?) made a better core ensemble than Kirk/Spock/McCoy. Ensemble cast is not one of TNG's characteristics, unfortunately. However, there may be an even stronger, ulterior motive against creating the same type of environment amongst the TNG characters... I remember reading that Rodenberry specifically dictated against creating an atmosphere that would possibly breed another Kirk/Spock/McCoy three-headed monster. Deep down, Rodenberry resented the power Shatner and Nimoy had over the episodes, etc. It's in their contract!! Paramount cannot do anything to the characters of Kirk and Spock without the approval of the actors who portray them. Not even printing a picture to which they object. Picard is by contrast an aristocrat, isolated not just by rank but by manners and breeding from the relative commoners beneath him. Well, he didn't even play poker with his staff until the last episode of the show. That gives you an idea of how isolated he was. :) I tend to think of TOS as being (mostly) good SF that happened to be on TV; by contrast, I think of TNG as being (mostly) good TV that happened to incorporate a certain amount of SF - hence its longevity but also its recurring bouts of fluffiness. A very interesting interpretation. I have to add that one to my repertoire. :) JJ _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. Marvin Long Does the continuity of The Animated Series count? They did have the holodeck there! Courtesy of DC Fontana, I believe. :) TAS also boasted the first holodeck goes bananas and tries to kill the crew episode. Oy.. JJ _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course, by the time ST:TMP came out, the original cast already included a number of cultural icons - putting them on the big screen just confirmed that status. TNG was a popular show, but as you've pointed out earlier, it was not a cast of iconic characters. Marvin Long Unfortunately, 16+ years of ST:TNG episodes on re-runs aren't helping that. Maybe somebody in Paramount hopes that if they re-run the episodes long enough, the characters will achieve the same legendary status. Tough luck. Anybody has any idea on what the theme for the next Trek film may be? I'm not sure about the success of ST:X either. JJ _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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JJ wrote: Would Gene consider DS9 bad Trek? Most likely, and I agree with your view. His associates claim that he totally despised the premise for the show, like I mentioned a couple of weeks back. He was very protective of his property. If I remember correctly, his opinion was: if he didn't cast it, it wasn't Star Trek. I can understand that, and can sympathize to some extent. I'm a big fan of Babylon 5, but if someone tried to do a show in the B5 universe without approval of jms, the Roddenberry of B5, I probably wouldn't be interested and I'm *certain* jms would be very unhappy and would not consider it canonical within the B5 universe. For some reason, I never really considered that issue with DS9, and I'm not really sure why. The popularity of Trek, which had gone on a crescendo between ST2 and ST6, suddenly started to decline among fans. I noticed it on the Internet, and I noticed it talking to fans I used to know at the time. I used to run a Trek fanclub in the early 90's. People just didn't talk about Trek with the same candor or enthusiasm. And I think the ratings or market research by Paramount noticed that there was something going on. That may have well been one of the reasons why Worf was written into DS9, and why the war story arc was introduced. I wonder if some of that decline in popularity might have something to do with market saturation. I don't think any other story universes had more than one show on at a time back when DS9 first started (now there are several). And DS9 *was* a pretty big departure from previous Trek incarnations, so a lot of people who thought that you can't have Trek without the Enterprise probably felt that Trek was moving away from their interests, so they decided to move away from Trek. Did you see any talk of that in the fanclub? Also, by the time Worf and the Dominion War both got added to the mix, Babylon 5 was up and running full steam, so suddenly Trek wasn't the only space-oriented science fiction choice available on television, so people had something else to get excited about. That might have let some of the air out of the Trek fandom bubble in the early to middle 1990s. I hate to end up sounding like I'm agreeing with Rodenberry's dictatorial opinions, but to me DS9 wasn't Star Trek. Trek was about going out there into the unknown, and coming face to face with the wonders of the universe. I like to define DS9 as a really cool scifi show that takes place in the Star Trek universe. But it wasn't.. Star Trek. MHO, of course. Voyager, at least, takes us out there. The producers must've realized that this is a value which appeals to Trek fans; otherwise, the next shows coming from the franchise may have taken place in, say, Rigel 7 or the Norpin Colony. Instead, both the Trek products that came after DS9, Voyager and Enterprise, are spaceship-based shows. I think that, had it not been for the influence of Babylon 5, Paramount would have never done a show based on a space station (see my note below on this also). This leads right back into the question what is Trek? If it's a show about going out there, DS9 still does that in my book, especially once they start exploring the other side of the wormhole on a more regular basis. But is DS9 not true Trek because it doesn't take place on a starship? Did DS9 start becoming true Trek once stories started taking place on the Defiant? I think to some extent the thing that keeps people coming back to Trek now, the one thing that ties all of the shows together, is that it's now comfortable and familiar. We're all comfortable with transporters and phasers and the universal translator. We all know what the Federation stands for (Section 31 notwithstanding). We understand the Prime Directive (even if it gets ignored on a regular basis), and enjoy watching the Federation seek out new life and new civizations (DS9 introduced and/or greatly expanded on some particularly cool civilizations). That familiarity may be why so many people stuck with Voyager through some really dreadful bouts of writing (and I tend to have a higher opinion than most concerning Voyager, which had some really great stories mixed in the bad). That also may be why people have stayed with Enterprise through it's ups and downs so far. We care about the Federation and we want to know more about it, and so are willing to tolerate weaker stories as long as they are comfortable. I'm certainly not the first to say this, but maybe the network execs at Paramount know that ST fans like that familiarity, and are therefore unwilling to rock the boat with controversial or cutting edge stories, and maybe *that* is why ST popularity has been declining. (On an aside, one thing that I found interesting was the color-scheme of the sets designed for the Voyager ship. I always thought of this as a subliminal message to Trek fans. These sets, if memory serves, were designed with the
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: Unfortunately, 16+ years of ST:TNG episodes on re-runs aren't helping that. Maybe somebody in Paramount hopes that if they re-run the episodes long enough, the characters will achieve the same legendary status. Tough luck. Anybody has any idea on what the theme for the next Trek film may be? I'm not sure about the success of ST:X either. There may not be another movie (at least not anytime soon). Here's a link to a Slashdot article discussing an interview with Rick Run the ST franchise into the ground Berman: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/04/1742245mode=threadtid=97 Slashdot | Rick Berman Doesn't Know Why Nemesis Tanked Not sure if that cutnpaste link works, so again: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/04/1742245mode=threadtid=97 (Slashdot | Rick Berman Doesn't Know Why Nemesis Tanked) God, this guy is clueless. They scheduled their (rather weak) movie directly between the releases of the hugely-expected sequels to the two biggest movies of last year (both in the 10 biggest of all-time), and he's puzzled why it wasn't successful. -Bry ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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JJ wrote: Anybody has any idea on what the theme for the next Trek film may be? I'm not sure about the success of ST:X either. First, to answer your second question, this link: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-02/21/09.00.tv or http://makeashorterlink.com/?U11954693 As far as speculation about the next Trek film, and possibly even the next Trek series, well, that could get a little spoilery, so let me insert some spoiler space here... POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR ST: NEMESIS, RECENT EPISODES OF ENTERPRISE, AND FOR THE FUTURE OF TREK s p o i l e r s p a c e That should be enough space. There is a rumor that the eventual goal of Enterprise is to show the birth of the Federation. They've certainly been moving that direction, with a recent episode that has Archer acting as mediator between the Vulcans and the Andorians. There has been talk of creating another series in the next year or three, possibly featuring Riker and Troi on Riker's new ship, the... um... ahem, I forgot what it's called. But anyway, whether with Riker and Troi or not, the rumor says that the next series will have a big buildup to a massive war, and show the destruction of the Federation, with a new series after that showing the birth of whatever comes next, which theoretically would involve the mysterious and (IIRC) not-named human government that's involved in the Temporal Cold War on Enterprise. The movies would become involved in that storyline, also. Of course, that's only an internet rumor, and you probably know what those are worth :-) Reggie Bautista _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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Marvin wrote: And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. JJ replied: Does the continuity of The Animated Series count? They did have the holodeck there! Courtesy of DC Fontana, I believe. :) But that wouldn't be TOS, it would be TAS, even though it had TOC (the original crew), right? ;-) Of course, TOC could be construed to be the crew of the Enterprise under Captain Robert April, the first captain of a Federation Starship Enterprise, or Captain Johnathan Archer, the first captain of an Earth Starship named Enterprise, pre-Federation... Reggie Bautista Splitting Fine Hairs Maru _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Reggie Bautista wrote: I can understand that, and can sympathize to some extent. I'm a big fan of Babylon 5, but if someone tried to do a show in the B5 universe without approval of jms, the Roddenberry of B5, I probably wouldn't be interested and I'm *certain* jms would be very unhappy and would not consider it canonical within the B5 universe. For some reason, I never really considered that issue with DS9, and I'm not really sure why. Well, JMS wrote probably 80% (or more!) of the B5 episodes, and the rest were written to conform to his story arc, whereas I'm not sure Roddenberry wrote any ST episodes, and he certainly never had/wanted any kind of overall story arc. ST was his show, but he didn't control/guide the stories in the same way JMS did. At least to me, that's why the Roddenberry-less DS9 wasn't equivalent to a JMS-less B5. I wonder if some of that decline in popularity might have something to do with market saturation. I don't think any other story universes had more than one show on at a time back when DS9 first started (now there are several). And DS9 *was* a pretty big departure from previous Trek incarnations, so a lot of people who thought that you can't have Trek without the Enterprise probably felt that Trek was moving away from their interests, so they decided to move away from Trek. Did you see any talk of that in the fanclub? Also, by the time Worf and the Dominion War both got added to the mix, Babylon 5 was up and running full steam, so suddenly Trek wasn't the only space-oriented science fiction choice available on television, so people had something else to get excited about. That might have let some of the air out of the Trek fandom bubble in the early to middle 1990s. I would add that DS9 was a bit more cerebral than TNG was, and featured mostly new, unfamiliar characters, settings and sadversaries, versus the already beloved TNG cast and the familiar Klingons and Romulans. Further, all the cliches that were getting tired at the end of TNG (ie: holodeck adventure/accident, stranded on a planet due to a shuttle crash, etc) were getting recycled by the writers on DS9 (and again later, on Voyager...) That familiarity may be why so many people stuck with Voyager through some really dreadful bouts of writing (and I tend to have a higher opinion than most concerning Voyager, which had some really great stories mixed in the bad). That also may be why people have stayed with Enterprise through it's ups and downs so far. We care about the Federation and we want to know more about it, and so are willing to tolerate weaker stories as long as they are comfortable. Even though I wasn't enjoying it very much, I watched Voyager out of force of (ST-watching) habit up until the (second season?) episode Threshold, which was the worst, most god-awful piece of rediculous crud I'd ever seen come out of the ST franchise. Far worse than Spock's Brain, IMHO. After watching it, I posted a writeup mocking it on R.A.ST, got a few laughs, and then realized that I was getting more annoyance than entertainment, and sadly gave up. I think this was around the same time Tim Lynch (probably the most widely read ST episode reviewer on USENET) also gave up on Voyager. I'm certainly not the first to say this, but maybe the network execs at Paramount know that ST fans like that familiarity, and are therefore unwilling to rock the boat with controversial or cutting edge stories, and maybe *that* is why ST popularity has been declining. IMHO, the network execs think ST fans are stupid and couldn't handle/appreciate anything too complex/controversial/cutting edge/new. When DS9 ended, Ron Moore moved on to Voyager, and he tried to make some changes and add new ideas, so they booted him. I think those are the reasons why the ST franchise is dying. As you can see, I'm a little bitter about the Star Trek franchise. It had/has the potential to be *so* good, and yet I've been so constantly disappointed, that I've mostly given up. True, Voyager did start being a lot like Lost In Space. But, according to legend, Lost In Space was inspired by Gene's pitch to CBS, so in a way it came full-circle after all, right? :) And to turn the circle into a Moebius strip... DS9 might have been inspired by jms' pitch to Paramount as you probably already knew or had read in a previous thread -- or was that earlier in this thread? Or did you in fact post that info? It all blurs together after a while :-) That was me that posted that. I noted the irony that CBS milked Roddenberry for his ideas when they made Lost In Space, while Paramount milked JMS for ideas when they made DS9. -bry ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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Reggie Bautista wrote: Marvin wrote: Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html which has the quote as Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When I was looking for that quote to post it, I found not 1, not 2, but 3 pages that stated it as ...of the incompetent. And now I can't find any. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Reggie Bautista The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. -- E. W. Dijkstra: Ah, Dijkstra. I saw him on a panel discussion once. He insisted that all computer programs should be proven, or verified, before use, and that he wouldn't use a program that hadn't been. Then, when pressed, he admitted not using a computer. :) He died recently. Can't remember which month now. There was a big article about him in the local paper. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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Bryon Daly wrote: Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: Unfortunately, 16+ years of ST:TNG episodes on re-runs aren't helping that. Maybe somebody in Paramount hopes that if they re-run the episodes long enough, the characters will achieve the same legendary status. Tough luck. Anybody has any idea on what the theme for the next Trek film may be? I'm not sure about the success of ST:X either. There may not be another movie (at least not anytime soon). Here's a link to a Slashdot article discussing an interview with Rick Run the ST franchise into the ground Berman: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/04/1742245mode=threadtid=97 Slashdot | Rick Berman Doesn't Know Why Nemesis Tanked Not sure if that cutnpaste link works, so again: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/04/1742245mode=threadtid=97 (Slashdot | Rick Berman Doesn't Know Why Nemesis Tanked) The first one worked fine. At least, it was working fine and I was reading some Pulaski vs. Crusher debate when the power went out :P (I think it's sleet, rather than freezing rain. The weather here is nasty, and they're recommending that people not travel until, oh, say, noon tomorrow or so) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] But I've heard people say that Roddenberry would have never allowed DS9 to go in the directions it did. This would have been tragic. Some of the things that Roddenberry allegedly would not have liked, especially the darker tone, are the things I liked best. I am a strong admirer of the works of Gene Rodenberry. I admire his vision and the guts and determination it took to get his vision to life. All this has been extensively chronicled in several Trek books. I am not blinded by my admiration for the man, though. I am well aware of his flaws. I disagree for example, of his habit of taking so much credit for things others in his production staff were responsible for. I guess books like Inside Star Trek by Bob Justman and Herb Solow(including the equally enlightening video version of the same name) and to a lesser degree, Star Trek Memories by Shatner, bring to light this and make justice to give credit where credit is due. To establish some historical perspective, it's worth mentioning that after regaining his clout with Paramount shortly after the second season of TNG, Rodenberry defined his views of Star Trek in two ways: what he considered good Star Trek and bad Star Trek. This was first explained to me in a series of emails I was lucky enough to correspond with Trek and Scifi author David Gerrold. This annoyed the hell out of many of the writers that worked with him on TNG, as well as to the people who dealt with licensing and Paramount for the Pocketbooks and comic incarnations of Trek. Many of the good ideas writers had were labeled as bad Star Trek by Gene and his associates, and therefore, were shot down. According to Gerrold, Rodenberry became utterly impossible to deal with after he started taking seriously the Great Bird of the Galaxy monicker. Age, combined with drink and other illnesses, only made the situation worse. Would Gene consider DS9 bad Trek? Most likely, and I agree with your view. His associates claim that he totally despised the premise for the show, like I mentioned a couple of weeks back. He was very protective of his property. If I remember correctly, his opinion was: if he didn't cast it, it wasn't Star Trek. What is your opinion of DS9? Thanks for asking. Getting off the Rodenberry-opinion mode, I'll give you my own: I think DS9 had a great beginning and a great premise. I enjoyed the show. Some of my favorite episodes include the ones where Sisko is trapped in a time-flux, and his son ages eons before he does until he is rescued. Major drama there!! (Sorry, I don't know the names of the episodes). My other favorites include the visits to the parallel universe, and the Trials episode. However, and someone out there must agree with me, *something* happened with the Trek franchise after the end of TNG and shortly after Generations was released. If I must find hard evidence of this claim, I can mention that the popularity of Trek merchandising (Paramount's hottest ever!!) started to decay in rapid numbers. Compared to what it used to be during the heydey of TNG and the Trek films, it's basically nonexistent. The popularity of Trek, which had gone on a crescendo between ST2 and ST6, suddenly started to decline among fans. I noticed it on the Internet, and I noticed it talking to fans I used to know at the time. I used to run a Trek fanclub in the early 90's. People just didn't talk about Trek with the same candor or enthusiasm. And I think the ratings or market research by Paramount noticed that there was something going on. That may have well been one of the reasons why Worf was written into DS9, and why the war story arc was introduced. I hate to end up sounding like I'm agreeing with Rodenberry's dictatorial opinions, but to me DS9 wasn't Star Trek. Trek was about going out there into the unknown, and coming face to face with the wonders of the universe. I like to define DS9 as a really cool scifi show that takes place in the Star Trek universe. But it wasn't.. Star Trek. MHO, of course. Voyager, at least, takes us out there. The producers must've realized that this is a value which appeals to Trek fans; otherwise, the next shows coming from the franchise may have taken place in, say, Rigel 7 or the Norpin Colony. Instead, both the Trek products that came after DS9, Voyager and Enterprise, are spaceship-based shows. (On an aside, one thing that I found interesting was the color-scheme of the sets designed for the Voyager ship. I always thought of this as a subliminal message to Trek fans. These sets, if memory serves, were designed with the assistance of technicians who went all the way back to the TOS. And if you notice, they follow the same color patterns as TOS did. I wonder...) True, Voyager did start being a lot like Lost In Space. But, according to legend, Lost In Space was inspired by Gene's pitch to CBS, so in a way it came full-circle
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Deborah Harrell wrote: Marvin is from _The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_ gasp *Our* Marvin is really an alien!? You mean all those UFO sightings are *real*?!! Wow! And here I thought that he was just a guy who writes well... ;) Marvin is a robot Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: True! Season 1 was especially notorious for being a major revolving door of staff members. They were dropping like flies. Season One was not too good, particularly the episodes that were essentially rips of TOS episodes. The scripts, acting, a lot of it was just not good. Basically, the first season turned me off, but I stuck with it, and was eventually rewarded by episodes like Darmok, Wolf 359, and the two-parter where Picard is captured by the Cardassians, and they actually let Patrick Stewart show why they hired him in the first place. :) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Deborah Harrell wrote: I love Asimov's Foundation series, but in the original trilogy Seldon is little more than a glyph; and I'd be hard-pressed to remember the name of the rest of the characters (aside from The Mule). Actually, I think that was Marvin; Marvin is from _The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_ Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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George wrote: Bayta Darrel, Hober Mallow, Salvor Hardin, Preem Palver, Gaal Dornick leap to mind (even if I forget the speeling). Debbi replied: Oh, boy, not one of those names rings a bell! (Think I read that series over 2 decades ago.) You don't remember Salvor Hardin, the mayor who said Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right, Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent and many other sayings, and is one of the coolest politicians in science fiction? Sacrilege! Reggie Bautista Patriotism is the last refuge of the incompetent. --Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784) _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: You'll have to agree with me that when TNG was good, it was GREAT. But when it was poor, it was REALLY bad. I may sound like a purist, but I have always divided TNG into two eras: before Gene's death, and after Gene's death. I humbly think quality control in TNG, and the Trek franchise in general, declined greatly after Rodenberry passed away. But it took them a little while to get it right. I don't think the first season was as good as seasons 2-4, frex. Someone who knows more about ST:TNG off the top of his head, but is also somewhat biased in some matters, credits Melinda Snodgrass with the turnaround. (He heard the story of the script proposal leading to writing the script leading eventually to the creative consultant job from Melinda, hence I credit him with bias) I personally think one of the coolest TNG eps was Darmok and I can't remember just when Roddenberry died with respect to that. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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JJ wrote: You'll have to agree with me that when TNG was good, it was GREAT. But when it was poor, it was REALLY bad. I may sound like a purist, but I have always divided TNG into two eras: before Gene's death, and after Gene's death. I humbly think quality control in TNG, and the Trek franchise in general, declined greatly after Rodenberry passed away. But I've heard people say that Roddenberry would have never allowed DS9 to go in the directions it did. This would have been tragic. DS9, especially in the later years, is my favorite modern incarnation of Trek. Some of the things that Roddenberry allegedly would not have liked, especially the darker tone, are the things I liked best. What is your opinion of DS9? And re: Star Trek V: However, Kirk's what does God need with a Starship? and his sequences with Spock and Mccoy on shore leave, including his I'll die alone diatribe, are considered by many to be worth the price of admission. I haven't seen it since opening weekend, so my memory may be a bit hazy on this I thought the shore leave sequences were pretty cool, and the I'll die alone speech was ok although maybe a little over-the-top, but I found myself asking What does God need with a starship far earlier than Kirk. I hate when movies get that predictable. I believe in dropping hints about what you are going to do, but when you telegraph something that is supposed to be a big surprise or a major character moment, it just deflates that moment. I have a friend who is a film critic, and she and I sometimes refer to the idiot plot. That's when a plot relies on someone either not getting something that should be obvious to anyone in their situation, or doing something that is monumentally stupid, like walking into a room that has no electricity without any weapons when you know that there is a serial killer loose. Worst-case scenario idiot plots are the ones where there would be no plot if the characters weren't complete idiots. I don't think Star Trek V is a worst-case scenario; however, characters missed clues in ways that seem out of character to me. Again, this is through the haze of memory, but I had that impression strongly enough that I've gone out of my way to avoid watching Star Trek V again. Maybe I should give it a second chance. I was only a couple of years out of high school when I saw it, and I've grown and changed a *lot* in the intervening 13 or 14 years. But my impressions of ST II, III, and IV haven't changed much since I first saw them Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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JJ wrote: When I was a 4 year old kid, I used to watch TOS in reruns with MY GRANDMOTHER!!! She was in LOVE with Spock. She found those pointed ears.. fascinating. ;-) My... [does quick relationship math]... step-grandmother-in-law is a huge fan of G'Kar on Babylon 5. Actually, she's a big fan of that show in general, but she's particularly fond of G'Kar as he was starting with The Coming of Shadows, early-middle second season. I'm not sure I'd exactly say she's in love with him, though... Reggie Bautista _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] But it took them a little while to get it right. I don't think the first season was as good as seasons 2-4, frex. True! Season 1 was especially notorious for being a major revolving door of staff members. They were dropping like flies. I personally think one of the coolest TNG eps was Darmok and I can't remember just when Roddenberry died with respect to that. Julia That was a GREAT episode. It was filmed before Gene's death. A year or so before he died, Gene was too ill to perform his on-the-lot tasks and his duties were taken care of by his assistant Richard Arnold and his lawyer, who was with him 24/7 while he was at Paramount. As I understand it, scripts were still submitted to him, and they were returned with his annotations prior to shooting. If I may add, Arnold and GR's lawyer didn't exactly win a popularity contest with their duties. It has been said that they both took too many liberties in Gene's name during their work with the production of the show. Rumors floated stating that inmediately following Rodenberry's death, Arnold was escorted off the Paramount lot. JJ _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: I love Asimov's Foundation series, but in the original trilogy Seldon is little more than a glyph; and I'd be hard-pressed to remember the name of the rest of the characters (aside from The Mule). Actually, I think that was Marvin; Marvin is from _The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_ gasp *Our* Marvin is really an alien!? You mean all those UFO sightings are *real*?!! Wow! And here I thought that he was just a guy who writes well... ;) GSV Kicker __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
--- Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: George wrote: Bayta Darrel, Hober Mallow, Salvor Hardin, Preem Palver, Gaal Dornick leap to mind (even if I forget the speeling). Debbi replied: Oh, boy, not one of those names rings a bell! (Think I read that series over 2 decades ago.) You don't remember Salvor Hardin, the mayor who said Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right, Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent and many other sayings, and is one of the coolest politicians in science fiction? Sacrilege! sheepish grin IIRC, when I read the blurb for the series, I thought the Mule was...an equine, and was quite disappointed that he wasn't... So I read it very carelessly. Junior High School Days Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
To me, there is nothing that captures the beauty of the universe and the imagination and dreams of spaceflight than Thus Spake Zarathustra at the beginning of 2001 and the Blue Danube as the Pan Am ship approaches the space station. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Or of course 'Once More With Feeling' from BtVS series 6... Not a movie, but longer than a normal ep. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A bad thing done for a good cause is still a bad thing. It's why so few people slap their political opponents. That, and because slapping looks so silly. - Randy Cohen. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 6:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] But it took them a little while to get it right. I don't think the first season was as good as seasons 2-4, frex. True! Season 1 was especially notorious for being a major revolving door of staff members. They were dropping like flies. It also had the weakest stories, presumably from a writing staff who were still finding their spacelegs. I had a friend who passed away in '93 who possessed a copy of the scriptwriters guide for TNG. My favorite part was the section on 'cliched' storylines that the producers absolutely would _never_ accept. Included as examples were: deux ex machina plots and computer goes berserk plots. By the end of the series a few of those had aired. :) I personally think one of the coolest TNG eps was Darmok and I can't remember just when Roddenberry died with respect to that. Julia That was a GREAT episode. It was filmed before Gene's death. Darmok was ep # 102 and was the 2nd ep of season 5. Episodes 101 and 102 were entitled Redemption I and Redemption II. A picture exists somewhere (I don't remember where I saw it...) of Gene on the Ent-D bridge cutting their 100th episode cake with the entire cast of Redemption I. Jon GSV UberGeek ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
George asked Not trying to be a smart**s here, but how do Twin Peaks and The Last of the Mohicans fit in the category of SciFi/Fantasy? The most fitting description of SciFi/Fantasy that I ever read was when you can not identify time place. Twin Peaks fit, The Last of the Mohicans I think not. Ilana, Leatherstockling saga admirer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Jon Gabriel wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:34 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? Jon Gabriel wrote: From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:59:27 -0600 Talking about Star Trek: The Motion(less) Picture (sorry for the cheap shot, I'll get back to it near the end of the email), I wrote: snipped a very long and somewhat fascinating post that I will probably respond to at length as soon as I'm able But first, this cheap shot: L3?!? 9K?!? It's just a TV show! Get a life, people! Move out of your parent's basements! 1) If I'd had the time, I might have done something just as long. I haven't had time to respond to José's original request, much less write a dissertation on ST movies. Oh no no no no no no! No! Please don't tell me you took me ***seriously***?!?! No, yours was the only post that I could come up with a good response for off the cuff. :) And *gasp* don't tell me you've never seen or heard what must be the greatest SNL skit of all time, where Bill Shatner finally snaps and yells at a bunch of hardcore Trek fans at a convention that they should: Get a life, will you, people! I mean, for crying out loud, it was just a TV show. You've taken a fun little job I did 20 years ago and turned into a tremendous waste of time I thought everyone had seen that! Heck, Shatner even wrote a book entitled Get a Life! I would easily be able to convincingly argue that I'm one of the biggest ST fans on the list and even I thought that skit was hilarious. :-) I never actually saw the skit. I've heard about it, and seen Shatner's book (but not read it; the only cast member whose book(s) I've read is Nimoy). 2) There are lots of things that are just a TV show that are still worth discussing. If I had more time, I'd probably have written volumes on the movies and all six series. :-) I'd certainly have been able to. :-) If you ever have the time, that could be entertaining, at least to some of us. :) 3) I never lived in anyone's basement. I never lived with my parents after college. Respectively not guilty and guilty, here. I'm presently living in a very nice house with my husband and my son (see, that's the time sink!), and we don't even *have* a basement, unless you count the roughly 8'X4'X4' storm shelter embedded in the foundation. /serious/ Is Austin like Amarillo (and much of El Paso,) then, where you'd be blasting into solid rock if you had wanted a basement? My uncle had one blasted for his home, but my parents (and grandparents) never had one. Expensive as all heck to do. But they definitely make sleeping through tornado season easier. /serious/ Well, in some spots, you dig down through the clay for a bit, and then you hit solid rock. You *can* construct a basement; a guy I know who's building a house much bigger than ours (on the order of 10-15,000 square feet) is building it with a basement; but it's very, very expensive. (The price tag on *that* house is in the millions of dollars, so the basement part isn't that big a deal for him.) We'd thought a basement might be nice to have, but after talking with people, the extra cost was prohibitive for us. What we have is the small storm shelter embedded into the foundation. They didn't have dig much deeper in that spot than they had to dig for the rest of the foundation, and the spot we built on is reasonably easy to dig through for a good 10' down, at least. (There were no problems putting in the septic system, which they had to dig a fair bit down for. If they'd hit rock too close to the surface, that would have jacked up our cost quite a bit.) Not very much room for living on a day-to-day basis, although in the very extremely unlikely event that the weather gets really, really bad, it could be something of a lifesaver. (But I think that the more likely scenario is that the people down the hill have to flee their houses due to flooding, and maybe a couple end up crashing with us, since there would have to be an *awfully* big flood for it to affect us that badly.) 4) Define a life. :) I'd better not! :) Most definitions of a life tend to exclude parents of small children, unless the children are handed off to hired folks on a regular basis. We hand Sammy off to someone about twice a month for the evening, and that's it. I'm not sure that's enough to constitute a life. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: It's interesting to see how two different people can like the same things for different and sometimes contradictory reasons. I think your analysis is really very good, but you obviously look at ST:TOS and ST:TNG differently than I, and that's because we seem to like the show for different reasons. You seem to like ST:TOS primarily for the what-if, the pure science fiction anthology element of it. I liked that element, but one of the main reasons I like TOS is the relationship between Kirk, McCoy, and Spock, and the tension and conflict that arise from their relationship. Actually, this relationship is one of the best things about ST:TOS in my opinion, and I love it as well. But it's not really a relationship that grows from episode to episode. (It grows on the viewer, but that's different.) The actors get better at expressing it; but you don't really see a narrative of character growth and change from episode to episode until the movies kick in. On the other hand, this is precisely the thing that makes ST:TNG successful and, I suspect, appealing to a much broader audience (I know a number of people who love ST:TNG but can't stand the original series, and I suspect it's not just the scenery dripping from Shatner's teeth that puts them off). Spock suggests the logical course of action, McCoy gives the humanitarian or emotional way of doing things, and Kirk has to find the balance between those. Spock and McCoy are almost the angel and devil on Kirk's shoulders, except that leaning too far in *either* direction is a bad thing. For all of Kirk's brashness, in many ways he is the Platonic ideal of taking the middle road. He is the Golden Mean, leaning more toward emotion than logic, but using both to best effect. I think it's their fixedness in these archetypal roles that makes TOS dramatically weak as a serial, however. With the exception of Spock's spiritual quest, which only really takes off in ST:TMP, TOS doesn't have a narrative of growth and change for its characters as individuals. So, while it's great fun to watch them, you're not going to learn much new about them from episode to episode except for the plot details of a given week's big idea. Contrast this to ST:TNG, where Picard and Data and Worf and Riker Troy and, hell, even Wesley have ongoing issues and projects and concrete pasts that the series returns to again and again over the years to show how people grow and change and have private lives that matter to them. The tension involved in staying on that middle path is the main thing that drew me to TOS even as a kid, and still draws me to it today. It's something my dad used to talk about to me all the time. Use you emotions, and use your brain, but when you have to choose between the two, trust your emotions more. Logic can be *much* more misleading, and in more insidious ways. (I know I'm probably gonna get hit hard on this one on-list, depending on who reads this...) See, one of the really cool things about ST:TMP for me is that it takes just this tension and pushes it about as far as it can go. Plus, we actually see the characters mature and change through the movie. They are estranged when they meet, but when the movie ends, they're back to the heroic trio we know and love, but wiser than before and all that good stuff. And Spock has taken his first steps toward becoming the Great Rabbi of the Galaxy (or something like that). ;-) So, for me ST:TMP pushes the original Trek formula to its highest point. ST:TWoK jiggers with the formula and allows Trek to hit other points, many of them high, but of the movies none capture the Star Trek spark that I loved as a kid the way that ST:TMP does. ST:TWoK is a close, close second...but it's still second for me. One of the main weaknesses I see in TNG is that the relationships between the major characters are too bland. The characters are each interesting in themselves, but there is no tension in their interactions, with the exception of Dr. Pulaski in the second season, and I didn't much like her anyway; she functioned more as a two-dimensional... hmm, maybe one-dimensional foil to highlight the humanity of Data. TNG has no dance between being letting the heart rule or letting the head rule, no finding that magical middle ground. In TNG, all those decisions are foregone conclusions (well, for the most part, anyway, as all of this is generalizing to lesser or greater extents). That's true, in a way: Picard combines the traits of Kirk and Spock for the most part, with Data acting as sort of a walking calculator/Eliza machine/straight man. On the other hand, the blandness of the characters' interactions is a product of the fact that in TNG, they actually have normal lives outside the scope of the week's unfolding plot drama (that, and everybody is unfailingly politically correct, even the Klingon). Kirk, Spock, and Bones don't
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
At 08:37 AM 2/20/03 -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, The Fool wrote: LOL! I've read Moby Dick twice, sir, and STII is no Moby Dick. :-) It quotes Moby Dick, true. Plot by Ian Fleming, with additional dialogue by Dickens and Melville. Khan is Ahab, Kirk is the whale. C'mon, Shatner wasn't THAT big. :-) Scotty, perhaps? ducking -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Khan is Ahab, Kirk is the whale. C'mon, Shatner wasn't THAT big. :-) Scotty, perhaps? ducking Unlike Scotty Marvin Long Gratuitous pratfall Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippage Jon or Reggie (I lost track!) wrote: I thought everyone had seen that! Heck, Shatner even wrote a book entitled Get a Life! I would easily be able to convincingly argue that I'm one of the biggest ST fans on the list and even I thought that skit was hilarious. :-) I never actually saw the skit. I've heard about it, and seen Shatner's book (but not read it; the only cast member whose book(s) I've read is Nimoy). I never did see it either, but it sounds like fun. I've read both Nichelle Nichols' and George Takai's (?sp?) autobiographies; both were quite interesting - her father apparently met Al Capone, and George spent time in a US internment camp (but since he was a child, he was not terribly upset by it at the time). I don't recommend Shatner's book (hey! I got it on sale for $5, so don't call me a fanatic! :} ) 2) There are lots of things that are just a TV show that are still worth discussing. If I had more time, I'd probably have written volumes on the movies and all six series. :-) I'd certainly have been able to. :-) If you ever have the time, that could be entertaining, at least to some of us. :) Ditto - I've enjoyed reading the various dissertations on ST here. :) snippage You *can* construct a basement [in Austin]... I want a basement in my next house. (Although my friends shudder to think of it - then you'd _never_ get rid of old journals! they say. Point, I guess...) 4) Define a life. :) I'd better not! :) Most definitions of a life tend to exclude parents of small children, unless the children are handed off to hired folks on a regular basis. We hand Sammy off to someone about twice a month for the evening, and that's it. I'm not sure that's enough to constitute a life. :) Well, but you _do_ attend Cons and Burning Man and so forth, so at least you have a *partial* life. ;) What Do You Mean, Do *I* Have A Life?! Maru ;} __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:57:03 -0500 Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Actually, this relationship is one of the best things about ST:TOS in my opinion, and I love it as well. But it's not really a relationship that grows from episode to episode. (It grows on the viewer, but that's different.) The actors get better at expressing it; but you don't really see a narrative of character growth and change from episode to episode until the movies kick in. On the other hand, this is precisely the thing that makes ST:TNG successful and, I suspect, appealing to a much broader audience (I know a number of people who love ST:TNG but can't stand the original series, and I suspect it's not just the scenery dripping from Shatner's teeth that puts them off). I think it's their fixedness in these archetypal roles that makes TOS dramatically weak as a serial, however... TOS is embedded in the collective consciousness in a way TNG can never even aspire to be. I remember working as IT in San Juan's Public Works Dept. I used to have ERTL's NCC1701-A model proudly displayed next to my server as an in-joke with my programmers, since we used to call the old server Enterprise. On one occasion, one of the carpenters from the department was working on an addition to my office, and the minute he walks in, he stares at the model, and he goes, Wait.. isn't that Captain Kirk's ship? From Star Trek?. Needless to say, I was very pleasantly surprised. That's how far TOS has traveled; if the Enterprise has gone all the way into the minds of people from all levels of society and all walks of life exchange points of view about science fiction and its' impact, then it really *has* gone where no man has gone before. The magic of Star Trek: TOS is in no small part due to, in the words of Nick Meyer, those characters. TOS works due to the familiarity of its' characters with the audience. TNG, nor Voyager, nor DS9, nor Enterprise (I did get to see my first episode wednesday!!) have been able to reproduce the chemistry found between Kirk and company. One of my favorite episodes of DS9 is Trials and Tribbleations. Guess why. :) In the opening sequences of this episode, the writers try, in vain, to introduce a concept in DS9 which is almost unfamiliar to DS9: banter in the bridge. A vain attempt to imitate the spirit of familiarity that we found in TOS, but it falls flat. This can never be duplicated. Also, the scripts of TOS were written, in great part, by great SciFi writers (Ellison, et al) and great SciFi minds like Gene Coon and Rodenberry who understood what SciFi was all about. TNG's Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, who have written or edited almost all of the episodes of TNG and its' re-incarnations, in no way compare to the minds behind TOS. Michael Piller did pen some great moments of TNG, but he eventually ended up relinquished to a second or third place in the staff. Star Trek is now a franchise. I liked it better when it was a VERY good TV show, with provocative ideas that stimulated the minds of its' viewers. If TNG and its' predecessors could emulate, or duplicate, that effect, I swear to you I would NEVER turn off my TV set. When I was a 4 year old kid, I used to watch TOS in reruns with MY GRANDMOTHER!!! She was in LOVE with Spock. She found those pointed ears.. fascinating. ;-) You'll have to agree with me that when TNG was good, it was GREAT. But when it was poor, it was REALLY bad. I may sound like a purist, but I have always divided TNG into two eras: before Gene's death, and after Gene's death. I humbly think quality control in TNG, and the Trek franchise in general, declined greatly after Rodenberry passed away. I've also seen comments in this thread related to Star Trek 5, and I'd like to say something about it as well. I think ST5 is as good as any average episode of TNG or DS9.The problem with the audience's perception of ST5 is very simple: after being pampered with ST2, 3 and 4, the fans anticipation built on a crescendo. I guess we were all waiting for the next ST4. In comes Shatner, and does a movie that resembles more an average-to-good movie with a plot that compares to, or maybe is even better than, any average episode of TOS or TNG. I remember reading, at the time of ST5's release, how Shatner despised TNG because, in his words, they can't do ST without Kirk or Spock or McCoy. The production of ST5 was plagued by major problems from the start: the SAG strike and a novice director made a major dent on the film. But, like Leonard Maltin says in his review of the film, ST5 gets worse before it gets better. If it had been edited correctly, it may had been better perceived. However, Kirk's what does God need with a Starship? and his sequences
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
--- Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: snipped most of good discussion re: ST-TOS TNG Hm. While I agree that the best SF tends to have good characters, when I *think* of great SF I tend to think of the big picture. I loved Dune, for instance, but I have no particular attachment to Paul Atreides as such. I love Asimov's Foundation series, but in the original trilogy Seldon is little more than a glyph; and I'd be hard-pressed to remember the name of the rest of the characters (aside from The Mule). But it's the idea, the universe they inhabit, that infatuates me. I loved _Earth_ and I enjoyed _Kiln People_ but at the moment I can't remember the names of any of the characters, even the protagonists. But the big pictures linger. Forge of God? Blood Music? Great books, but I can't remember a name from either. I agree. For me, the character names fade rapidly, while the universe and the general story stick with me much better. In that thread a while back about 10 best SF heroes, I was hard pressed to come up with any names, even though I've read a ton of SF. While for me, if I don't care about at least one character (which means s/he has to be well-written, 3-dimensional and preferably shows some growth/change during the course of the book/series), I won't like it well enough to re-read, or to remember more than the barest outline of plot. _Heart of the Comet_ was interesting, but didn't engage me; same for _Murasaki_ (?I think that was the title - Brin co-authored it). OTOH, I adore the characters of _Uplift W_ and _Startide R_, and have read both 5-7 times. Debbi who much prefers Picard to Kirk (although I too really liked the TOS 'troika' of K, S B) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Never watched Twin Peaks, so I really didn't know. George A - Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:32 PM Subject: Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? From: G. D. Akin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not trying to be a smart**s here, but how do Twin Peaks and The Last of the Mohicans fit in the category of SciFi/Fantasy? Twin Peaks IS Science Fiction / Horror. Last of the Mohican is just really good for a movie soundtrack. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
Deborah Harrell wrote: I love Asimov's Foundation series, but in the original trilogy Seldon is little more than a glyph; and I'd be hard-pressed to remember the name of the rest of the characters (aside from The Mule). - Bayta Darrel, Hober Mallow, Salvor Hardin, Preem Palver, Gaal Dornick leap to mind (even if I forget the speeling). George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
To me, there is nothing that captures the beauty of the universe and the imagination and dreams of spaceflight than Thus Spake Zarathustra at the beginning of 2001 and the Blue Danube as the Pan Am ship approaches the space station. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
--- G. D. Akin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: I love Asimov's Foundation series, but in the original trilogy Seldon is little more than a glyph; and I'd be hard-pressed to remember the name of the rest of the characters (aside from The Mule). Actually, I think that was Marvin; sorry if I snipped his name somehow. I kind of remember the series, but since I didn't care much for any of the characters, I barely can recall the plot... :) - Bayta Darrel, Hober Mallow, Salvor Hardin, Preem Palver, Gaal Dornick leap to mind (even if I forget the speeling). George A Oh, boy, not one of those names rings a bell! (Think I read that series over 2 decades ago.) But I Do Remember There Was A Mule Maru ;) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
While most of my favorite soundtracks have been listed by others already (ST-TMP, Star Wars, LotR, Ladyhawke), I'll add ST-First Contact and The Dark Crystal (Podlings! Landstriders! and a cool flute-and-voice duet) to the bag. Non-SciFi/Fantasy: add my vote for Last of the Mohicans, and append The Patriot...and I *still* listen to The Sound of Music and Born Free. :) (and The Lion King...) (and The Lost Boys...) (and Antarctica...) Riverdance Is Good Too Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:34:27 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: Did you read Roddenberry's novelization of ST:TMP? (Some say it was ghost-written by Alan Dean Foster.) I feel the ST:TMP is most Trekkish, by TOS standards, of the movies. What happened IMO is that STII:TWoK *changed* the Star Trek formula. True. ST2 is Nick Meyer's interpretation of Star Trek. Remember that as good as ST:TMP was, it didn't really do as well as the studio expected at the box office. Therefore, they went along with Harve Bennet's view of episodic television's recipe for success. In ST:TMP, the Enterprise is a big, QE2 type of super-cruiser. In ST2, Nick Meyer turns the Enterprise basically into a WW2 submarine, and the fight in the Mutara Nebula is arguably one of the best submarine space battles in movie history. Cinefantastique called ST6's space battle the best ever, but I think WoK beats that. Thus STIII is about the relationship between Spock and his crewmates; STIV is about the relationship between Spock and his crewmates with a nice environmental message thown in the mix along with some social humor; STV, if it existed, If it existed LOL Isn't it sad that Rodenberry disowned this movie? Even in the Trek encyclopedias, the existence of Sybok is questioned. Stop me when I reach a movie devoted to boldly going somewhere and experiencing something SFish; or, failing SFish, new. Oh, no, by no means. This is a great review. I'm having too much fun reading it. :) If I may add, let's not forgetting the main point that the movies 2 thru 6 hammer to death: Captain Kirk's midlife crisis. The theme of Kirk growing old was nice when it was first introduced in ST2, but by the time they got to ST6, it was sooo overworked, it wasn't fun to watch anymore. There is one exception, though; in ST5 (if it existed LOL ) Kirk becomes young again, only to age again in ST6. I think there's a major timeline omission here, and a long gap of years has been left out of these films. And I refuse to buy the DVDs until they come out with a real ST:TOS boxed set. A wise choice. I bought the original DVD releases, and I'm finding myself buying the new editions of the DVD's, though. So far, the only one's worth the money, are ST:TMP with the restored footage and newly shot special fx. WoK has some extra footage, but they stopped adding extra footage in STIII. That disappointed me. JJ _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
To me, there is nothing that captures the beauty of the universe and the imagination and dreams of spaceflight than Thus Spake Zarathustra at the beginning of 2001 and the Blue Danube as the Pan Am ship approaches the space station. George A - Original Message - From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:25 AM Subject: Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack? On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, The Fool wrote: The Themes developed in TMP were not related to TOS. Really? They sound like it to me. STII uses TOS themes, sometimes whole, in a more obvious manner IIRC. But TMP's soundtrack does, it seems to me, allude to them and adapt them in nifty little ways that are not immediately obvious. And Next Generation ripped them off. And did them to death. That's certainly true...but it's not the original soundtrack's fault. Whereas in STII:TWoK, The themes are actually from TOS, and superior in many ways. The Music fits the movie perfectly without being cut (unlike every single star wars movie). I'd have to listen to STII more carefully to do a comparison, but ST:TMP does a superb job of fitting music to action, IMO. IIRC for the most part its cues play pretty much from beginning to end in the course of the film with very little cutting if any (much better than Star Wars in this respect, I agree). The re-editing of the expanded version and the re-contracted version of the movie might have changed this, though. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
George said: Not trying to be a smart**s here, but how do Twin Peaks and The Last of the Mohicans fit in the category of SciFi/Fantasy? I haven't seen the latter, but the former is explicitly an epic battle between forces of supernatural good and evil, at least after the first season. That makes it clearly fantasy. Rich GSV The Black Lodge ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, The Fool wrote: STII is..Moby Dick. LOL! I've read Moby Dick twice, sir, and STII is no Moby Dick. :-) It quotes Moby Dick, true. Plot by Ian Fleming, with additional dialogue by Dickens and Melville. Khan is Ahab, Kirk is the whale. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
