Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Monday 17 February 2003 10:30, Warly wrote: Currently the machine running bugzilla is quite underpowered (PIII 700 with 256 MB of ram). As soon as I find some time and a more powerfull computer, I switch it and decrease the processing to something like 5 minutes). While you are at it. Can you find a more powerfull machine for me to? :-P Danny
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Mon, 2003-02-17 at 03:39, Danny Tholen wrote: On Monday 17 February 2003 10:30, Warly wrote: Currently the machine running bugzilla is quite underpowered (PIII 700 with 256 MB of ram). As soon as I find some time and a more powerfull computer, I switch it and decrease the processing to something like 5 minutes). While you are at it. Can you find a more powerfull machine for me to? :-P Danny Danny finding it and buying it are two different things *grin*..
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Jean-Michel Dault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Each group could have a separate mailing list. This way, I wouldn't have 30,000 e-mails in one folder. It would be much easier to find stuff we have to handle (in my case apache/php) from stuff I don't really care about (I don't use gnome, except to test during the beta/rc release). Why don't you use filters and scoring? With that, I don't have trouble handling my bugs and the bugs on stuff I work on, or related to my work. And bugzilla by email is very fast and efficient. I don't have any problem coming from the slowness of the web interface of bugzilla, nor the obligation to use a web client. There's even a chapter on Scoring on my gnus helper: http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/html/howtos/howto-adopt-gnus.html -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Friday 14 February 2003 01:24 pm, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Jean-Michel Dault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Each group could have a separate mailing list. This way, I wouldn't have 30,000 e-mails in one folder. It would be much easier to find stuff we have to handle (in my case apache/php) from stuff I don't really care about (I don't use gnome, except to test during the beta/rc release). Why don't you use filters and scoring? With that, I don't have trouble handling my bugs and the bugs on stuff I work on, or related to my work. And bugzilla by email is very fast and efficient. I don't have any problem coming from the slowness of the web interface of bugzilla, nor the obligation to use a web client. There's even a chapter on Scoring on my gnus helper: http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/html/howtos/howto-adopt-gnus.html Ah now it is all clear. You are the reason emacs is still in the distro. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 10:24:30PM +0100, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Why don't you use filters and scoring? With that, I don't have trouble handling my bugs and the bugs on stuff I work on, or related to my work. And bugzilla by email is very fast and efficient. I don't have any problem coming from the slowness of the web interface of bugzilla, nor the obligation to use a web client. I was using the mail interface but it took hours for Bugzilla to pickup my comment/changes etc. So the web interface is faster for me... -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
This time Brook Humphrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes daring and writes: On Friday 14 February 2003 01:24 pm, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Jean-Michel Dault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Each group could have a separate mailing list. This way, I wouldn't have 30,000 e-mails in one folder. It would be much easier to find stuff we have to handle (in my case apache/php) from stuff I don't really care about (I don't use gnome, except to test during the beta/rc release). Why don't you use filters and scoring? With that, I don't have trouble handling my bugs and the bugs on stuff I work on, or related to my work. And bugzilla by email is very fast and efficient. I don't have any problem coming from the slowness of the web interface of bugzilla, nor the obligation to use a web client. There's even a chapter on Scoring on my gnus helper: http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/html/howtos/howto-adopt-gnus.html Ah now it is all clear. You are the reason emacs is still in the distro. And you better be thankful for it! :P Vox, another proud gnus user -- Think of the Linux community as a niche economy isolated by its beliefs. Kind of like the Amish, except that our religion requires us to use _higher_ technology than everyone else. -- Donald B. Marti Jr. msg92314/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Ben Reser wrote: I was using the mail interface but it took hours for Bugzilla to pickup my comment/changes etc. So the web interface is faster for me... The mail interface has normally been pretty fast for me, since I normally have had to go back to it and reset the assigned_to, since for some reason it sometimes changes that for no reason to the person who replied. So, it was fast, but not efficient. Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was using the mail interface but it took hours for Bugzilla to pickup my comment/changes etc. So the web interface is faster for me... There's a cron job run every 20 minutes that flushes the mails. Warly told that it could be made faster if necessary (when I asked him), I thought to myself, and then I concluded that it was not really necessary to have a quicker response on the bugzilla database itself (what interests me is the time taken by this operation on my side - which is null). Maybe if you have good arguments he may change that value :). -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Sat, Feb 15, 2003 at 12:17:23AM +0100, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: There's a cron job run every 20 minutes that flushes the mails. Warly told that it could be made faster if necessary (when I asked him), I thought to myself, and then I concluded that it was not really necessary to have a quicker response on the bugzilla database itself (what interests me is the time taken by this operation on my side - which is null). Maybe if you have good arguments he may change that value :). The mail interface works nicely if people read cooker. But if I close a bug and it doesn't get picked up and someone is viewing via they may duplicate what I just did. Not a huge deal. But I would be more inclined to use the mail interface if it had a shorter lead time... But I'm not complaining about the speed of the web interface either. So it really makes no difference to me. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion only of her own. -- John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1821
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
The two, I think. A bug can be a KDE bug, or it can be a mail related bug. But, to cross post he bug will generate noise on one of the two list I really don't see how a bug in anything but a server (in which case the group is known) would affect both mutt and kmail, unless it was a configuration issue ... and I wouldn't see people who run apps like fetchmail, amavis and mutt would want to see posts about a broken kde address book (or similar). Well, you see the problem. But, if we put all bug in a single list, there will be too much noise. If we each kmail bug in a KDE list, some bugs affecting mail will be missed. And, the same applies for forwarding all to Mail list. A bug between amavis and kmail, with kmail error, should go where ? Kde. But, if it's a amavis problem ? Mail And if we don't know ? So, cross posting is not perfect, but , it reduces the bug misses to zero, and the noise to a minimum. People posting bugs should decide to which list it is forwarded, if they are able to choose well, of course. This is a first improvement, no ? I think all but nc could go under monitoring, nc can go anywhere, since I use it for file transfert and for chat on the lan :-) Of course, Mandrake only claims to be compatible with Redhat, not with Debian ... If compatibility means that they use the same 3 letter for their package extension, yes, they are compatible -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Jean-Michel Dault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What do you think? i don't think it would be easier...
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Austin Acton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The community should not be interpreted as a port or a fork or a new project. IMHO, it should be just that, a community: with both corporate and volunteer portions working as one. OK, I may have misinterpreted the reason it's starting. I thought the idea was to create something to take care of Mandrake Linux if MandrakeSoft ceases to exist, but now I see that you're also interested in working with them if they do manage to turn things around financially. Makes sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes the idea is to strenghen and federate the mandrakelinux developers community, whatever happens to the Mandrakesoft commercial company. However I think that both the community and Mandrakesoft could benefits from each others. As a consequence the current thread aim is to brainstorm for a more official and ruled structure for the community. Moreover I think the goal is not to merge or become part of debian project, but to keep a kind of sane concurrent state between them both. -- Warly
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Greg Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Saturday 08 February 2003 03:22 pm, Chmouel Boudjnah wrote: J. Greenlees [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: creating a community for mandrake cannot be done without active support fron mandrakesoft staff, or it isn't mandrake, it's based on mandrake. the silence from mandrake employees is deafening. ;) and without thier active support fatal to a mandrake community based distro model. warly if the official speaker of this thread, blame him ;-). I don't think Warly had in mind the discussion you all ended up having. I recall some wondering about how Mandrake could become a better distro by looking at the Debian development model and learning from it, not becoming part of the Debian Project. You guys went way out in left field on this one and then wonder why they did not participate My first mail was large enough to have very different ideas. We need first to create pointers for people desireful to contribute. A first web page should points all the available document, and I should definitely consider updating the Mandrake Linux policy and guidelines. Regarding development and tasks, I though that some tweaks on bugzilla could make it used as a task manager. -- Warly
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Le mer 12/02/2003 à 14:31, Warly a écrit : A first web page should points all the available document, and I should definitely consider updating the Mandrake Linux policy and guidelines. Regarding development and tasks, I though that some tweaks on bugzilla could make it used as a task manager. Bugzilla is so painfully slow it's unuseable. - There are *way* too many packages, and it causes a *huge* delay in displaying the pages. - Also, every bug report is CC'ed on Cooker, to the bugs list and to the maintainer. This makes it hard to filter the bugreports to concentrate on one area. - Finally, it uses https:// so everything is encrypted, and adds to the slowness if the site. I would recommend using a Wiki, just like the one we have for internal engineering. It's easy to install, manage, and very low on resources. What's more, anyone can create a topic and link it to a project page. I would also like to have several groups: - Server group (apache, php, samba, mail) - Office application group (for example, why is the calculator missing in default install? Why isn't the menu anti-aliased in OOffice, etc) - Hardware and Driver group (so people can discuss i845 issues, etc. I would place XFree there also, since most problems are drivers) - Multimedia group (arts/esd/jackd, XawTV/Zapping, xmms, etc) - KDE group - Gnome group - Desktop application group (anything else not KDE/Gnome/Office related) - Drak tools, including installer. - Core group, where we could talk about RPM-Howto, glibc, initscripts, etc. Each group could have a separate mailing list. This way, I wouldn't have 30,000 e-mails in one folder. It would be much easier to find stuff we have to handle (in my case apache/php) from stuff I don't really care about (I don't use gnome, except to test during the beta/rc release). What do you think? Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
I would recommend using a Wiki, just like the one we have for internal engineering. It's easy to install, manage, and very low on resources. What's more, anyone can create a topic and link it to a project page. Each group could have a separate mailing list. This way, I wouldn't have 30,000 e-mails in one folder. It would be much easier to find stuff we have to handle (in my case apache/php) from stuff I don't really care about (I don't use gnome, except to test during the beta/rc release). What do you think? Well, great idea, already discussed :-) But, it will take a lot of time to choose the groups of each package I think that the wiki should be set up to discuss groups, then, all groups should created, with mailling list, and then, somehow, the migration of the bugs from the cooker ml to cooker-subject-bugs ml will slowly begin. -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Wednesday 12 February 2003 19:15, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le mer 12/02/2003 à 14:31, Warly a écrit : A first web page should points all the available document, and I should definitely consider updating the Mandrake Linux policy and guidelines. Regarding development and tasks, I though that some tweaks on bugzilla could make it used as a task manager. Bugzilla is so painfully slow it's unuseable. - There are *way* too many packages, and it causes a *huge* delay in displaying the pages. - Also, every bug report is CC'ed on Cooker, to the bugs list and to the maintainer. This makes it hard to filter the bugreports to concentrate on one area. - Finally, it uses https:// so everything is encrypted, and adds to the slowness if the site. Yes , using modem or isdn makes it even slower. I would recommend using a Wiki, just like the one we have for internal engineering. It's easy to install, manage, and very low on resources. What's more, anyone can create a topic and link it to a project page. I vote for this. maintaining the informations should be easier with it. I would also like to have several groups: - Server group (apache, php, samba, mail) - Office application group (for example, why is the calculator missing in default install? Why isn't the menu anti-aliased in OOffice, etc) - Hardware and Driver group (so people can discuss i845 issues, etc. I would place XFree there also, since most problems are drivers) - Multimedia group (arts/esd/jackd, XawTV/Zapping, xmms, etc) - KDE group - Gnome group - Desktop application group (anything else not KDE/Gnome/Office related) - Drak tools, including installer. - Core group, where we could talk about RPM-Howto, glibc, initscripts, etc. Each group could have a separate mailing list. This way, I wouldn't have 30,000 e-mails in one folder. It would be much easier to find stuff we have to handle (in my case apache/php) from stuff I don't really care about (I don't use gnome, except to test during the beta/rc release). What do you think? I can't speak for others, but after reading the thread exactly this way would be very good. Bugzilla maybe could have different groups and the bugreports can go then to the right mailinglist. That would make bugzilla faster then too. A search field could help to identify the group (example: kmail = network or kde) to avoid difficulties with that. -- Regards Steffen counter.li.org : #296567. machine: 181800 vdr-box : 87 Please dont CC me, since if I have replied I'll watch the tread. Both mails will be filtered to the ML-folder. Thanks
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Michael Scherer wrote:
What do you think?
Well, great idea, already discussed :-)
But, it will take a lot of time to choose the groups of each package
All packages have groups, and are probably close enough to be used:
rpm -qa --qf '%{GROUP}\t%{NAME}\n'|sort
Buchan
--
|--Another happy Mandrake Club member--|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc
1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Le Mercredi 12 Février 2003 21:09, Buchan Milne a écrit :
But, it will take a lot of time to choose the groups of each package
All packages have groups, and are probably close enough to be used:
rpm -qa --qf '%{GROUP}\t%{NAME}\n'|sort
So, what should be the name pf the group talking of kmail ?
Networking-Mail or Graphical_desktop-KDE ?
But, this is a good idea, and I still wonders why I tought of it without
writing it in my mail ?
And what about interest groups like 'Authentication' , or 'Ergonomics' ?
--
Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
At 02:15 PM 2/12/03 -0400, you (Jean-Michel Dault) wrote: I would recommend using a Wiki, just like the one we have for internal engineering. It's easy to install, manage, and very low on resources. What's more, anyone can create a topic and link it to a project page. Wiki are great for internal projects and small, unknown projects. Mandrake is big and has a lot of controversial stuff associated with it, so people posting unwanted stuff such as trolls, flames, support request, political statements, insults, advertisement, etc, could be a big maintenance headache. Gerard
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Michael Scherer wrote: Le Mercredi 12 Février 2003 21:09, Buchan Milne a écrit : So, what should be the name pf the group talking of kmail ? Networking-Mail or Graphical_desktop-KDE ? Does it belong with mutt or with knode and lisa etc? But, this is a good idea, and I still wonders why I tought of it without writing it in my mail ? And what about interest groups like 'Authentication' , or 'Ergonomics' ? Yes, there is too much under system/libraries (seems most pam and nss modules are). I haven't seen any ergonomics apps, but assuming you mean more usability, I don't think one can make distinctions there, although many people believe graphical apps are more useable (right - compare putty on windows to keychain and ssh under linux). Buchan -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Wednesday 12 February 2003 21:47, Gerard Patel wrote: At 02:15 PM 2/12/03 -0400, you (Jean-Michel Dault) wrote: I would recommend using a Wiki, just like the one we have for internal engineering. It's easy to install, manage, and very low on resources. What's more, anyone can create a topic and link it to a project page. Wiki are great for internal projects and small, unknown projects. Mandrake is big and has a lot of controversial stuff associated with it, so people posting unwanted stuff such as trolls, flames, support request, political statements, insults, advertisement, etc, could be a big maintenance headache. Gerard Hmm I would not say so. If there is a critical mass, there should not be such problems. Further the wiki should not be open to everyone, so trolls etc can be kicked. look at wikipedia. It is working somehow very well there. A wiki would be good too for documentation (user-made like mandrakeuser.org) but I guess this is OT here, something deno has to worry ;) -- Regards Steffen counter.li.org : #296567. machine: 181800 vdr-box : 87 Please dont CC me, since if I have replied I'll watch the tread. Both mails will be filtered to the ML-folder. Thanks
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Michael Scherer wrote: So, what should be the name pf the group talking of kmail ? Networking-Mail or Graphical_desktop-KDE ? Does it belong with mutt or with knode and lisa etc? The two, I think. A bug can be a KDE bug, or it can be a mail related bug. But, to cross post he bug will generate noise on one of the two list I really don't see how a bug in anything but a server (in which case the group is known) would affect both mutt and kmail, unless it was a configuration issue ... and I wouldn't see people who run apps like fetchmail, amavis and mutt would want to see posts about a broken kde address book (or similar). And what about interest groups like 'Authentication' , or 'Ergonomics' ? Yes, there is too much under system/libraries (seems most pam and nss modules are). And, some categorie, such as Security, should be added, IMHO. To give a example, nc and snort are in Networking/Other. john, nmap and hping are in Monitoring. john is not a network app, but this is not a monitoring app, I think. I think all but nc could go under monitoring, but yes, new categories are probably needed, but now is not the time ;-). I don't want to revive the troll, but, we should take a look to Debian classification, or maybe freshmeat 's one. Of course, Mandrake only claims to be compatible with Redhat, not with Debian ... Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 12 February 2003 01:15 pm, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le mer 12/02/2003 à 14:31, Warly a écrit : A first web page should points all the available document, and I should definitely consider updating the Mandrake Linux policy and guidelines. Regarding development and tasks, I though that some tweaks on bugzilla could make it used as a task manager. Bugzilla is so painfully slow it's unuseable. - There are *way* too many packages, and it causes a *huge* delay in displaying the pages. - Also, every bug report is CC'ed on Cooker, to the bugs list and to the maintainer. This makes it hard to filter the bugreports to concentrate on one area. - Finally, it uses https:// so everything is encrypted, and adds to the slowness if the site. I would recommend using a Wiki, just like the one we have for internal engineering. It's easy to install, manage, and very low on resources. What's more, anyone can create a topic and link it to a project page. I think a wiki is definately needed. It is at the moment probably the most flexible and yet powerful collaboration tool available for an open community like the Mandrake community is. (Witness www.wikipedia.org) The sooner - the better ;-) Sascha Noyes - -- Please encrypt all correspondence. PGP key available from: http://individual.utoronto.ca/noyes/snoyes.asc - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Ss8AgzJdfX+cTW8RAkxPAJ0cypLnEbeTNLK9y35qd3FiD5vh/wCfcE/V 2MEfLDfOmlguvzxWWDo/K4c= =EjMk -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Wed, 2003-02-12 at 22:47, Sascha Noyes wrote: I think a wiki is definately needed. It is at the moment probably the most flexible and yet powerful collaboration tool available for an open community like the Mandrake community is. (Witness www.wikipedia.org) The sooner - the better ;-) Wikipedia does take quite a lot of care to weed out vandalism and such (I'm a semi-regular contributor). A Mandrake wiki could probably live with far tighter controls in the interests of avoiding trash. Wikipedia has a system of special pages which aren't world-editable, this could be used. There would also be an argument for registration for a Mandrake wiki, probably with quite strict control over who could actually edit it. But I think the idea's a sound one. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Wed, 2003-02-12 at 17:47, Sascha Noyes wrote: I think a wiki is definately needed. It is at the moment probably the most flexible and yet powerful collaboration tool available for an open community like the Mandrake community is. (Witness www.wikipedia.org) The sooner - the better ;-) I thought tutos (www.tutos.org) would be the best cuz it's very customizable, pretty, and all php, all GPL. Best of all, it has pictures of each member. I was just about ready to go buy a digital camera and a new thong. Problem would be integrating it with bugzilla. Nobody wants to have two totally separate systems, so we would need: a) vastly improved bugzilla, both is features and speed b) ditch bugzilla, get an amazingly capable groupware system c) find a groupware system that can interact with bugzilla I don't know enough about the logistics of setting it up to comment further. Austin (feels drafty in here) -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Le mer 12/02/2003 à 16:47, Gerard Patel a écrit : Wiki are great for internal projects and small, unknown projects. Mandrake is big and has a lot of controversial stuff associated with it, so people posting unwanted stuff such as trolls, flames, support request, political statements, insults, advertisement, etc, could be a big maintenance headache. The way I see it is more like: - Most stuff is discussed in package-group oriented mailing lists - Selected people (group leaders) put the stuff in the Wiki, like todo lists, feature requests, specifications, policies, etc. We would have to define guidelines, saying under what conditions someone can get write access, and under what conditions can someone be revoked access. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Wed, 2003-02-12 at 14:59, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2003-02-12 at 22:47, Sascha Noyes wrote: I think a wiki is definately needed. It is at the moment probably the most flexible and yet powerful collaboration tool available for an open community like the Mandrake community is. (Witness www.wikipedia.org) The sooner - the better ;-) Wikipedia does take quite a lot of care to weed out vandalism and such (I'm a semi-regular contributor). A Mandrake wiki could probably live with far tighter controls in the interests of avoiding trash. Wikipedia has a system of special pages which aren't world-editable, this could be used. There would also be an argument for registration for a Mandrake wiki, probably with quite strict control over who could actually edit it. But I think the idea's a sound one. I'd recommend looking at TWiki if the ability to control it is desired. (The one talked about in last months Linux Magazine.) Better security, The ability to have multiple private webs ( MDK emplyee's only Developers only Users only that kind of thing.) and a number of plugins and skins. We use it internally in my company and find it to be very useful... Kinda the corporate memory. James
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Le Mercredi 12 Février 2003 19:31, Warly a écrit : A first web page should points all the available document, and I should definitely consider updating the Mandrake Linux policy and guidelines. Definitely. We do want documentation about mdk-specific organisation, such as: - release process - maintainance process - different components of the distribution (main, contrib, cooker, club etc...) - mirror setup - port status - bug reporting - etc... I'm really fed up with current situtation where you need to have several years experience as a contributor to have some clue about what's going on. I even started to answer some on these points myself in PLF FAQ, see http://plf.zarb.org/faq.html -- Any cool program always requires more memory than you have. -- Murphy's Computer Laws n°2
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 02:47, Greg Meyer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 09 February 2003 06:05 pm, Gustavo Franco wrote: On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 15:36, Steve Fox wrote: On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 13:36, Gustavo Franco wrote: Any person has the same view of my messages as Lonnie? Just a lurker on this thread (since it's really gone awry), but I would say definitely not. You've been a very good diplomat for the Debian project. Thank you. I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] talking about the topics discussed here, this thread will be reported in the next issue of Debian Weekly News(DWN) [1]. [1] = http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/Writing/DWN/dwn-2003-06.html Bye, In my estimation, you have completely misrepresented the discussion that was going on here by substituting your own wishful thinking and by using out of context comments by people committed to making Mandrake successful. That is not being a good diplomat for the Debian Project. You took this thread where you wanted it to go, which was a far different place than when it started. Stupid estimation! My name isn't Martin Schulze!!! I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the url of this thread, if you can read my name isn't cited in the news.The DWN issue #6 wasn't released feel free to disturb joey(Martin Schulze) about that. Bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 03:22, Steve Fox wrote: On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 22:47, Greg Meyer wrote: In my estimation, you have completely misrepresented the discussion that was going on here by substituting your own wishful thinking and by using out of context comments by people committed to making Mandrake successful. That is not being a good diplomat for the Debian Project. You took this thread where you wanted it to go, which was a far different place than when it started. You guys seem to have it ass backward. He was simply making suggestions, which were shot down. He wasn't trying to force anyone to do anything. They proposed to create Mandrake Linux development as community similar to how the Debian project is organised, which is why John Goerzen from Debian contributes to the discussion. Austin Acton wonders how Debian maintains responsibilities and resources. Sounds pretty harmless to me. The only thing in doubt is the reference to 'Mandrake developers', which makes it sound like Mandrakesoft employees were in this discussion, which they were not. Feel free to send corrections/suggestions to Martin Schulze, the responsible of that text.I was sent only the url containing the archive of cooker ML pointing to this thread (started as the end is inevitable) and a slashdot article. And yes, maybe in a week or two the people will damn me about MandrakeSoft bankruptcy.It's a Debian Project conspiracy! troll ;) Bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On 10 Feb 2003, Gustavo Franco wrote: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 02:47, Greg Meyer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 09 February 2003 06:05 pm, Gustavo Franco wrote: On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 15:36, Steve Fox wrote: On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 13:36, Gustavo Franco wrote: [snip] [edited for clarity; NO CHANGE IN WORDS] Stupid estimation! My name isn't Martin Schulze!!! ^^ ?? I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ^^^^ This is at the least ambiguous. You cannot blame people for misreading your messages if the language is not unambiguous. Did you mean to say I was sent a mail FROM [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Blame it on bad language first before blaming it on bad intentions! (And that counts for both sides in this selective reading competition subthread...) Guy Bormann P.S.: Don't bother throwing baits, I won't bite...
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 10 February 2003 12:22 am, Steve Fox wrote: The only thing in doubt is the reference to 'Mandrake developers', which makes it sound like Mandrakesoft employees were in this discussion, which they were not. The article insinuates that the community was planning what to do in the aftermath of the failure of MandrakeSoft, which is not why the thread was started. It is an inaccurate representation of the original discussion. - -- Greg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+R52zwDpHP6GALAARAmh3AJwLAANJk1IhFgPdZGSig6OnUhqt/wCfXa9o HtEvDhBF6/gC6NaQ3rgl9i0= =z9Oa -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 10 February 2003 03:15 am, Gustavo Franco wrote: Stupid estimation! My name isn't Martin Schulze!!! I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the url of this thread, if you can read my name isn't cited in the news.The DWN issue #6 wasn't released feel free to disturb joey(Martin Schulze) about that. My apologies to you personally then, and I have taken your advice. - -- Greg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+R53mwDpHP6GALAARArFuAKCSzlaKRXPSAr07nzq9Mg5/8yxrwwCdEiEZ kNvXPfIsLnR2jg+WK9APJ2E= =Bl8N -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Greg Meyer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 10 February 2003 12:22 am, Steve Fox wrote: The only thing in doubt is the reference to 'Mandrake developers', which makes it sound like Mandrakesoft employees were in this discussion, which they were not. The article insinuates that the community was planning what to do in the aftermath of the failure of MandrakeSoft, which is not why the thread was started. It is an inaccurate representation of the original discussion. Blablabla... All you write is most probably true and if so I totally agree the author should be summarly executed (for the humor impaired : *flash* *flash* sarcasm! *flash* *flash*). However, Gustavo was also misrepresented as being the originator of the comments in the referred article while he was actually referred to this mailing list AFTER the fact. aaaiiipp (*gasp of air*) On the other hand, he was getting obnoxious about the fact that he was misunderstood about this while in fact his not so complete mastering of the English language was to blame. And now I am REALLY out of this stupid selective reading competition. If you don't believe, go back to the mail archive and REALLY read and read and read and read what was actually typed (in this subthread)(and I am really not so stupid to believe that all of it represents what was intended)! Guy Bormann
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 10:41, Greg Meyer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 10 February 2003 03:15 am, Gustavo Franco wrote: Stupid estimation! My name isn't Martin Schulze!!! I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the url of this thread, if you can read my name isn't cited in the news.The DWN issue #6 wasn't released feel free to disturb joey(Martin Schulze) about that. My apologies to you personally then, and I have taken your advice. Do you understand? Sorry for the exclamation. Bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 10:34, Guy.Bormann wrote: On 10 Feb 2003, Gustavo Franco wrote: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 02:47, Greg Meyer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 09 February 2003 06:05 pm, Gustavo Franco wrote: On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 15:36, Steve Fox wrote: On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 13:36, Gustavo Franco wrote: [snip] [edited for clarity; NO CHANGE IN WORDS] Stupid estimation! My name isn't Martin Schulze!!! ^^ ?? troll. I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ^^^^ This is at the least ambiguous. You cannot blame people for misreading your messages if the language is not unambiguous. Did you mean to say I was sent a mail FROM [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Sorry. Blame it on bad language first before blaming it on bad intentions! (And that counts for both sides in this selective reading competition subthread...) Talking about bad language, is the text in DWN unreleased[1] in the bad language? No? So, it's ambiguous too.The errors was associated with me, and my comments here.But the it's in good language.Strange, no? [1] = http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/Writing/DWN/dwn-2003-06.html Bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] p.s: You're trolling! You aren't discussing about the subjects covered here.Why?
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
this might be just the place to put a plug in for the mandrake-ot mail list, something created by a mandrake user, to help keep S-N-R to the min. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the e-mail address, and it uses sympa so the commands should be something most can handle, and if they need any further help, mail me off list and I will send the rest of the invite/instruction offlist. et
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
creating a community for mandrake cannot be done without active support fron mandrakesoft staff, or it isn't mandrake, it's based on mandrake. the silence from mandrake employees is deafening. ;) and without thier active support fatal to a mandrake community based distro model. warly if the official speaker of this thread, blame him ;-). Where is mdk management? Are they reading this? What do they think about it? Are they allowed to comment (don't know about french laws). And more important, how do they think they are going to restart mdk? If mdk doesn't find a workable business model then this discussion is useless, or it'll result in a fork. SE smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 06:27, Stefan van der Eijk wrote: warly if the official speaker of this thread, blame him ;-). Where is mdk management? Are they reading this? What do they think about it? Are they allowed to comment (don't know about french laws). And more important, how do they think they are going to restart mdk? If mdk doesn't find a workable business model then this discussion is useless, or it'll result in a fork. Although Warly inspired this thread, I think some of my words came out wrong and some people took things the wrong way. For that I'm very sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. I never proposed any kind of fork. In fact I was suggesting one of two ways to ATTRACT people to the development process. EITHER 1. Mandrake makes some sort of organized, warm, inviting community for developers to join, work together, get more done, and feel appreciated. This involves a few physical changes: more resources, better attitudes, more communication. Since this worked for Debian I (Warly too?) thought that would be a good place to steal ideas from. OR 2. We form our own 'task force'. This would involve some sort of groupware system to know who's here and what we're working on, also allowing others to easily join and contribute. We would have to just hope Mandrake accepts this, and tries to help as much as possible. Either way has the same effect. Number one's just more official and less work for us. :-) However, I NEVER proposed anyone leaving, branching, forking, joining another distro, amalgamating with another distro, or fighting amongst ourselves. In fact those are all contrary to my intent, which is to help the distro and make our lives easier and more organized. Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 13:36, Gustavo Franco wrote: Any person has the same view of my messages as Lonnie? Just a lurker on this thread (since it's really gone awry), but I would say definitely not. You've been a very good diplomat for the Debian project. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.org
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 15:36, Steve Fox wrote: On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 13:36, Gustavo Franco wrote: Any person has the same view of my messages as Lonnie? Just a lurker on this thread (since it's really gone awry), but I would say definitely not. You've been a very good diplomat for the Debian project. Thank you. I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] talking about the topics discussed here, this thread will be reported in the next issue of Debian Weekly News(DWN) [1]. [1] = http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/Writing/DWN/dwn-2003-06.html Bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 18:05, Gustavo Franco wrote: I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] talking about the topics discussed here, this thread will be reported in the next issue of Debian Weekly News(DWN) [1]. [1] = http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/Writing/DWN/dwn-2003-06.html Brilliant! What a good idea! Now they can print a stupid article which takes real emails with real discussions, and advertise a moronic headline which is 180 degrees from the truth. I wanted a system where Mandrake can help the community, and the community can better serve the distro, and now there's a pubic article stating the opposite. Good work Gus. You're a hero. Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 09 February 2003 06:05 pm, Gustavo Franco wrote: On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 15:36, Steve Fox wrote: On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 13:36, Gustavo Franco wrote: Any person has the same view of my messages as Lonnie? Just a lurker on this thread (since it's really gone awry), but I would say definitely not. You've been a very good diplomat for the Debian project. Thank you. I was sent a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] talking about the topics discussed here, this thread will be reported in the next issue of Debian Weekly News(DWN) [1]. [1] = http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/Writing/DWN/dwn-2003-06.html Bye, In my estimation, you have completely misrepresented the discussion that was going on here by substituting your own wishful thinking and by using out of context comments by people committed to making Mandrake successful. That is not being a good diplomat for the Debian Project. You took this thread where you wanted it to go, which was a far different place than when it started. - -- Greg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Ry7uwDpHP6GALAARAgNNAJ9tTqEtfmlOuVrwqg84wc1sb/wVnwCeJruH OQkFpW3PqORQEQJj+lA0Zxk= =2IEZ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 22:47, Greg Meyer wrote: In my estimation, you have completely misrepresented the discussion that was going on here by substituting your own wishful thinking and by using out of context comments by people committed to making Mandrake successful. That is not being a good diplomat for the Debian Project. You took this thread where you wanted it to go, which was a far different place than when it started. You guys seem to have it ass backward. He was simply making suggestions, which were shot down. He wasn't trying to force anyone to do anything. They proposed to create Mandrake Linux development as community similar to how the Debian project is organised, which is why John Goerzen from Debian contributes to the discussion. Austin Acton wonders how Debian maintains responsibilities and resources. Sounds pretty harmless to me. The only thing in doubt is the reference to 'Mandrake developers', which makes it sound like Mandrakesoft employees were in this discussion, which they were not. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.org
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Saturday 08 February 2003 12:34 pm, John Goerzen wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In one months or two you're doing: apt-get update; apt-get -uy upgrade.I can see :P We have 'urpmi.update -a; urpmi --auto-select --auto' (I have this in cron), and it gives me more than Debain does, unless Debian has XFS+ACL This is an honest question, not a troll: can you explain to me in what exact ways the urpmi command is superior to the apt-get commands? In my estimation, they are functionally equivalent. There may be some technical differences, but from my user perspective, they do the same thing. Although I like urpmi because it is fewer keystrokes ;-) -- /g
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Saturday 08 February 2003 18:34, John Goerzen wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In one months or two you're doing: apt-get update; apt-get -uy upgrade.I can see :P We have 'urpmi.update -a; urpmi --auto-select --auto' (I have this in cron), and it gives me more than Debain does, unless Debian has XFS+ACL This is an honest question, not a troll: can you explain to me in what exact ways the urpmi command is superior to the apt-get commands? Thanks, John It was not to show urpmi as superior, more that it can do the same and mandrake has features like xfs /ACLs , which debian has not. But if you want something, you may have a look at urpmi-parallel-* ;-) -- Regards Steffen counter.li.org : #296567. machine: 181800 vdr-box : 87 Please dont CC me, since if I have replied I'll watch the tread. Both mails will be filtered to the ML-folder. Thanks
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 17:34, John Goerzen wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In one months or two you're doing: apt-get update; apt-get -uy upgrade.I can see :P We have 'urpmi.update -a; urpmi --auto-select --auto' (I have this in cron), and it gives me more than Debain does, unless Debian has XFS+ACL This is an honest question, not a troll: can you explain to me in what exact ways the urpmi command is superior to the apt-get commands? Don't think anyone said it was superior...they do the same basic job, I think in many ways there's more importance in the packaging and distribution philosophy, which maybe means Debian concentrate more on being able to update through apt than Mandrake does through urpmi. Let's face it - it's not actually a very difficult concept, the methodology is simple, it's the application of it that's important. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 16:12, Steffen Barszus wrote: On Saturday 08 February 2003 18:34, John Goerzen wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In one months or two you're doing: apt-get update; apt-get -uy upgrade.I can see :P We have 'urpmi.update -a; urpmi --auto-select --auto' (I have this in cron), and it gives me more than Debain does, unless Debian has XFS+ACL This is an honest question, not a troll: can you explain to me in what exact ways the urpmi command is superior to the apt-get commands? It was not to show urpmi as superior, more that it can do the same and mandrake has features like xfs /ACLs , which debian has not. But if you want something, you may have a look at urpmi-parallel-* ;-) The latest Debian release, called Woody doesn't supports XFS officially, but you can use a solution[1] made by a developer.The reason is very simple: Stability first, features[2] after. If your choice is: Features first.Debian can solve your problems too, but you need do some job with your own hands, or use the unstable branch.It's more safe to all users. This subject isn't about Stability x Features and/or Debian x Mandrake, please don't damn me about your own way and your own choices. [1] = http://people.debian.org/~blade/XFS-Install/ [2] = http://oss.sgi.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=206 bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end isinevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 15:38, John Goerzen wrote: Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mandrake as a new project inside Debian.But it was refused here, many feels involved.But if you change the original idea, try debian-project ML.The Debian-Mandrake can receive financial support of SPI as described by Goerzen, more and more developers, because Debian Developers Let me clarify a bit: I'm not saying that SPI would be able to donate money or resources to the Mandrake project (though that may be a possiblity). I'm saying that SPI may be able to receive donations on behalf of the Mandrake community, and hold any other assets such as servers or copyrights on their behalf, in much the same way as they do for Debian, the Berlin project, and others. It is just a way to make it easier to interface cyberspace with the real world. And it is a discussion totally separate from any Debian-Mandrake cooperation. Yes, i agree.I did try talk the same thing with other words. The Debian-Mandrake can receive financial support of SPI in the case of a merge, already refuse. and now as described by goerzen more accurate above. Bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
J. Greenlees [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: creating a community for mandrake cannot be done without active support fron mandrakesoft staff, or it isn't mandrake, it's based on mandrake. the silence from mandrake employees is deafening. ;) and without thier active support fatal to a mandrake community based distro model. warly if the official speaker of this thread, blame him ;-).
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The latest Debian release, called Woody doesn't supports XFS officially, but you can use a solution[1] made by a developer.The reason is very simple: Stability first, features[2] after. If your choice is: Features first.Debian can solve your problems too, but you need do some job with your own hands, or use the unstable branch.It's more safe to all users. that the whole difference of philisophy between Mdk-Lnx and Debian we trying to make the stuff easier by default without any tweaking. PS: Don't take wrong i like Debian if i wasn't a MandrakeSoft devel i would certainly use it..
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
John Goerzen wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In one months or two you're doing: apt-get update; apt-get -uy upgrade.I can see :P We have 'urpmi.update -a; urpmi --auto-select --auto' (I have this in cron), and it gives me more than Debain does, unless Debian has XFS+ACL This is an honest question, not a troll: can you explain to me in what exact ways the urpmi command is superior to the apt-get commands? Nothing really, besides the fact that perl-URPM or urpmi are used by many of the Mandrake tools to provide transparent software installation to the user when configuring services that need software installed, usuallly prompting the user with a question as to whether they want the software installed. urpmi is probably not as good as apt, but the sum of the parts (perl-URPM, rpmdrake, printerdrake, XFdrake, drakwizard etc) add up to alot of really useful tools. Buchan -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 18:53, Buchan Milne wrote: John Goerzen wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In one months or two you're doing: apt-get update; apt-get -uy upgrade.I can see :P We have 'urpmi.update -a; urpmi --auto-select --auto' (I have this in cron), and it gives me more than Debain does, unless Debian has XFS+ACL This is an honest question, not a troll: can you explain to me in what exact ways the urpmi command is superior to the apt-get commands? Nothing really, besides the fact that perl-URPM or urpmi are used by many of the Mandrake tools to provide transparent software installation to the user when configuring services that need software installed, usuallly prompting the user with a question as to whether they want the software installed. urpmi is probably not as good as apt, but the sum of the parts (perl-URPM, rpmdrake, printerdrake, XFdrake, drakwizard etc) add up to alot of really useful tools. What's the discussion here? It isn't useful for us! I can expose some Debian tools that do the same as: libapt-pkg-perl, aptitude, gnome-apt, debconf(perl), cdebconf(The C *port* of debconf code being used in d-i, the new installer). And now, we can stop with this discussion about apt x urpmi ! Please, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
You know, the best thing about Linux is that nobody forces you to use anything that you don't want to. In other words, not one person is forcing anybody to use or to contribute to Mandrake. If you feel that you are not getting what you need from Mandrake, then for heaven's sake please go find another distribution that can give you what you are looking for (TurboLinux, RedHat, gentoo, debian, etc., etc.). This thread started as an interesting conversation about how the Mandrake community could be made better, but now it's turned into debian is the best, it does everything Mandrake does only better, let's all do debian (especially from Gustavo). Fine. Go do debian and SHUT UP! Nobody is stopping you. Flame away. TTFN, Lonnie Borntreger
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What's the discussion here? It isn't useful for us! please guys don't start a Debian vs Mdk-LNX threads it's completely useless and out of context...
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 19:28, Lonnie Borntreger wrote: You know, the best thing about Linux is that nobody forces you to use anything that you don't want to. In other words, not one person is forcing anybody to use or to contribute to Mandrake. If you feel that you are not getting what you need from Mandrake, then for heaven's sake please go find another distribution that can give you what you are looking for (TurboLinux, RedHat, gentoo, debian, etc., etc.). Yes, i agree. This thread started as an interesting conversation about how the Mandrake community could be made better, but now it's turned into debian is the best, it does everything Mandrake does only better, let's all do debian (especially from Gustavo). Fine. Go do debian and SHUT UP! Nobody is stopping you. No, I and Goerzen are trying help some Mandrake enthusiasts to understand better the Debian Project internals.Yes, i did talk about a Debian-Mandrake, it was a suggestion ..is that nobody forces you to use anything that you don't want to..It was refused.Did you read the entire thread? I'm trying stop a parallel discussion about apt x urpmi, did you see? Finally, what's the thread that are you reading? Any person has the same view of my messages as Lonnie? Bye, -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 19:28, Chmouel Boudjnah wrote: Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What's the discussion here? It isn't useful for us! please guys don't start a Debian vs Mdk-LNX threads it's completely useless and out of context... Definitely, i agree.But some people are misunderstanding my posts. -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
Le Samedi 8 Février 2003 22:28, Chmouel Boudjnah a écrit : Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What's the discussion here? It isn't useful for us! please guys don't start a Debian vs Mdk-LNX threads it's completely useless and out of context... Well, I think, for the good of all distributions, and all frees softwares, we should set up some mailling lists only for discussing these topics. ie, kde_vs_gnome, vim_vs_emacs, mandrake_vs_debian, rpm_vs_deb, etc etc etc. And, for windows users, we could set up a notepad_vs_wordpad list, of course. It would not requires so much space, since we don't need to have archives of the mail, since it is useless :-) Just imagine, if we can put some filter to change the mailling list when these topics are detected , with a manual intervention, or, with advanced troll detection system., everything will be so great ! Anybody mastering troll pattern recognition to help me on this ? -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 19:51, Michael Scherer wrote: Le Samedi 8 Février 2003 22:28, Chmouel Boudjnah a écrit : Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What's the discussion here? It isn't useful for us! please guys don't start a Debian vs Mdk-LNX threads it's completely useless and out of context... Well, I think, for the good of all distributions, and all frees softwares, we should set up some mailling lists only for discussing these topics. ie, kde_vs_gnome, vim_vs_emacs, mandrake_vs_debian, rpm_vs_deb, etc etc etc. And, for windows users, we could set up a notepad_vs_wordpad list, of course. It would not requires so much space, since we don't need to have archives of the mail, since it is useless :-) Just imagine, if we can put some filter to change the mailling list when these topics are detected , with a manual intervention, or, with advanced troll detection system., everything will be so great ! Anybody mastering troll pattern recognition to help me on this ? Obviously it was a troll! troll detected, adding X-Troll: yes to the headers! :P -- Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
Any person has the same view of my messages as Lonnie? ET, stands up waving both arms above head like a mad man who has been stuck on a desert island for years, upon seeing his rescue ship. Lonnie spoke for me too..
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Saturday 08 February 2003 03:22 pm, Chmouel Boudjnah wrote: J. Greenlees [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: creating a community for mandrake cannot be done without active support fron mandrakesoft staff, or it isn't mandrake, it's based on mandrake. the silence from mandrake employees is deafening. ;) and without thier active support fatal to a mandrake community based distro model. warly if the official speaker of this thread, blame him ;-). I don't think Warly had in mind the discussion you all ended up having. I recall some wondering about how Mandrake could become a better distro by looking at the Debian development model and learning from it, not becoming part of the Debian Project. You guys went way out in left field on this one and then wonder why they did not participate -- Greg
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Greg Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: part of the Debian Project. You guys went way out in left field on this one and then wonder why they did not participate we trying to work instead of trolling. /me go out nightclub saturday night 1ham good time to go shake on the dance floor/
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 13:56, John Goerzen wrote: If the code in Mandrake is GPL'd, then isn't their official blessing irrelevant? If it's not GPL'd or under another Free license, then that is something that's going to have to be dealt with before any community project based on it. The community should not be interpreted as a port or a fork or a new project. IMHO, it should be just that, a community: with both corporate and volunteer portions working as one. Sure the code's GPL'd, and the CVS is public, but the goal is to work together efficiently, not split up. Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the endis inevitable )
On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 14:03, John Goerzen wrote: Mandrake's installer is a lot nicer than Debian's, but Debian's package manager makes upgrades easier. Oh, that old chestnut. This is the last place you want to be insulting urpmi! :-) One possibility is forming a Debian-Mandrake project in Debian, along the lines of the Debian Desktop project. Or, joining the existing Desktop and installer projects. Are you serious? One of the main reasons this topic came up is because it's hard for volunteers to keep up with the pace of change, and even harder for the employees who I routinely see working late at night or all weekend. Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Quoting John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Austin Acton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well preliminary questions are: 1. Is there any hope of MandrakeSoft adopting a plan like this? 2. If so, will they administer it? In other words, do THEY want to reorganize into a more community-based distro, or do they want US to form our own community and then reject it if they don't like it? If the code in Mandrake is GPL'd, then isn't their official blessing irrelevant? If it's not GPL'd or under another Free license, then that is something that's going to have to be dealt with before any community project based on it. well main should be all gpl, but I think some code may not be. ( I doubt that there is any non gpl code in main ) isn't non gpl in plf, where there are licensing issues ectetera? my biggest complaint with debian is the way it is moving away from the iso model of distribution, while 7 iso's may be a bit much to download it all, the archive/snapshot of code on cdrom is always handy. ( I still have mandrake helios on cd ) creating a community for mandrake cannot be done without active support fron mandrakesoft staff, or it isn't mandrake, it's based on mandrake. the silence from mandrake employees is deafening. ;) and without thier active support fatal to a mandrake community based distro model. a community may have layers for responsability, but those layers are permeable, or it doesn't work. while the club is a small step in the direction needed for a community based distro, a community has to be free to be part of, not only for those that can afford / choose to pay for membership. ( 3d graphics communities have several sites, only 2 not really appropriate for all ages, and yet there are only 2 small sites where you pay to be a member, the large sites are free membership. www.renderosity.com 100 thousand members. www.renderotica.com 50 thousand plus members [ adult oriented graphics ] www.3-darena.com not sure, paid membership site. www.poserpros.com 5 thousand members, for a fairly new ( less than a year old ) site. just to list a few of the dozens of sites.) dozens of linux distros available, the ones that are the most popular have free membership in the community. --- ***Protect your PC from local E-Mail Application security holes*** ***Maintain your Privacy - Passport Free*** ***Anti SPAM Whitelist feature*** http://www.x-mail.net Web Based E-Mail, accessible anywhere Voice Messages, Voice Calls, Live Chat, X-Mail Messenger, Personal Web Hosting, 128 bit SSL Secure, Calendar, Bookmarks, Forwarding, Virtual Mail Map Aliasing X-Mail Premium: 20MB Messages, 100MB Storage, POP3, Ad Free
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community ( was : the end is inevitable )
Le Vendredi 7 Février 2003 19:51, John Goerzen a écrit : I would like to try to offer a bit of insight on what Debian has done right, what Debian has done wrong, and perhaps explore some areas Debian can work together with the Mandrake community in the future. You 're welcome. I also like their package adoption system: http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/ Package adoption is great, but, to orphan a package is not really seen as a good thing by others developpers. Very true. Debian uses this for two purposes: 1. A developer is still maintaining a package, but wants to stop 2. A developer has stopped maintaining the package and wants to let others know about it. Well, orphaned package need to be adopted before any work is done on it, that's right ? If so, why not put them in a special zone, where people can submit some changes, without having the burden of maintening it ? What about doing it the same way than Netbsd and FreeBSD. Debian is ported on a lot of processor, we can focus on a smaller subset. They have goals for each release in term of version of software, we can have more frequent releases, based on time. I'm not sure what the difference is here. Debian's release schedule is, according to everyone, too long. No quibbles there. It's nominally based on time, too. Well, I tought it was in term of software. For Woody, it was perl 5.6, Xfree4.0 and kernel 2.4, or something similar, I think. So, no features freeze until these are out and tested a lot. But, it is possible I was wrong. -- Mickaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
On Fri Feb 07 12:54 -0600, John Goerzen wrote: Austin Acton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The point is not to become debian. The point is to learn from their organizational success. And failures, too. Debian has some of each. How many developers do you see the Mandrake community having? If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere between 40 and 100, somewhere around 20-50% of whom are MandrakeSoft employees. Don't quote me on that, however. It's a much smaller developer community than Debian (especially if the more unofficial developers (Texstar, etc.) who operate outside the system aren't counted), so the average developer has more to do, but those numbers are skewed by the full-timers (how many packages does Fred Crozat, for instance, maintain?). I may ask a Debian maintainer and LUG-mate for his opinions on these matters the next time I get a chance. -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The food of love is Mandrake root. GPG Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: Metallica - Whiskey In The Jar Linux 2.4.20-0.4mdk 17:10:00 up 1 day, 1:33, 8 users, load average: 0.15, 0.18, 0.13
Re: [Cooker] Re: Creation of a community
Quoting Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri Feb 07 12:54 -0600, John Goerzen wrote: How many developers do you see the Mandrake community having? If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere between 40 and 100, somewhere around 20-50% of whom are MandrakeSoft employees. Don't quote me on that, however. (here I am quoting you, :-) ) That's an intersing guess, and an even more interesting question. Who's the best person to make a really good guess? Someone at MandrakeSoft? Lenny? Warly? Without the club, I would have guessed much lower, like 60 developers, less than 30% employees. With the club, add an extra 15 volunteers, maybe? Of course I'm referring to people who contribute something once a month at least. Currently playing: Metallica - Whiskey In The Jar It makes me very happy to see you playing a Metallica mp3. Of course I know you ripped it from a CD that you bought. But still, it makes me very happy to see Metallica MP3s. :-) Freedom. We're gonna ring the bell. Freedom to rock. Freedom to talk. Freedom, raise your fist and yell. Freedom! (Alice Cooper I think...) Austin
