[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. In the absence of experience, theory and arguing semantics is all one has. Think of it as a Linus blanket; I find it helps to inspire compassion. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. So, when does this tracing take place, if not during meditation? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. No, you're being unclear, Vaj. Tracing the seed syllable back to its source occurs during meditation, does it not? Is that what you are *supposed to do*--is that the instruction for this method, Trace the seed syllable back to its source--or is that what *happens* during meditation as a consequence of the method? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. In the absence of experience, theory and arguing semantics is all one has. Think of it as a Linus blanket; I find it helps to inspire compassion. Except that, of course, all TMers have the experience of tracing the seed syllable back to its source. But it isn't the *goal* of the method, it's what happens when one follows the instructions for TM. What we're attempting to determine is whether this is also the case with the method Vaj is talking about. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. In the absence of experience, theory and arguing semantics is all one has. Think of it as a Linus blanket; I find it helps to inspire compassion. Except that, of course, all TMers have the experience of tracing the seed syllable back to its source. But it isn't the *goal* of the method, it's what happens when one follows the instructions for TM. What we're attempting to determine is whether this is also the case with the method Vaj is talking about. To clarify: I want to know if Vaj believes that this is what ALWAYS happens, or what CAN happen. With TM theory, the description is an idealized version of the situation: if our nervous systems were stress free enough, it would be a normal description, but due to stress, the ideal is often quite different from the reality. I'm just wondering if there is any difference between an ideal description of what happens during the technique he mentions and what really happens. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. No, you're being unclear, Vaj. Tracing the seed syllable back to its source occurs during meditation, does it not? Is that what you are *supposed to do*--is that the instruction for this method, Trace the seed syllable back to its source--or is that what *happens* during meditation as a consequence of the method? With TM, I'd say that it is what CAN happen, but MMY doesn't make the distinction clear either, I guess to avoid too much info too soon. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 19, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote: sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. No, you're being unclear, Vaj. Tracing the seed syllable back to its source occurs during meditation, does it not? Is that what you are *supposed to do*--is that the instruction for this method, Trace the seed syllable back to its source--or is that what *happens* during meditation as a consequence of the method? With TM, I'd say that it is what CAN happen, but MMY doesn't make the distinction clear either, I guess to avoid too much info too soon. I would consider his discussion of the four values of the point to be a discussion on this. Ultimately however what the specific mechanics are of the meditation method are going to be evident in what state it results in. Is the result dualistic or is it a state of unification? Since it is alleged that TM, after many years of practice results in witnessing, a dualistic state, there's your answer. If you use a method that goes *truly* back to the source, it will awaken a state of unity. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 19, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote: sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. No, you're being unclear, Vaj. Tracing the seed syllable back to its source occurs during meditation, does it not? Is that what you are *supposed to do*--is that the instruction for this method, Trace the seed syllable back to its source--or is that what *happens* during meditation as a consequence of the method? With TM, I'd say that it is what CAN happen, but MMY doesn't make the distinction clear either, I guess to avoid too much info too soon. I would consider his discussion of the four values of the point to be a discussion on this. Ultimately however what the specific mechanics are of the meditation method are going to be evident in what state it results in. Is the result dualistic or is it a state of unification? Since it is alleged that TM, after many years of practice results in witnessing, a dualistic state, there's your answer. Except, of course, that it is also alleged in TM that God consciousness and then Unity develop spontaneously, simply from acting in the dualistic state of Cosmic Consciousness (witnessing). And the TM-Sidhis are alleged to help along the development toward Unity. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 19, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote: sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. No, you're being unclear, Vaj. Tracing the seed syllable back to its source occurs during meditation, does it not? Is that what you are *supposed to do*--is that the instruction for this method, Trace the seed syllable back to its source--or is that what *happens* during meditation as a consequence of the method? With TM, I'd say that it is what CAN happen, but MMY doesn't make the distinction clear either, I guess to avoid too much info too soon. I would consider his discussion of the four values of the point to be a discussion on this. Ultimately however what the specific mechanics are of the meditation method are going to be evident in what state it results in. Is the result dualistic or is it a state of unification? Since it is alleged that TM, after many years of practice results in witnessing, a dualistic state, there's your answer. Except, of course, that it is also alleged in TM that God consciousness and then Unity develop spontaneously, simply from acting in the dualistic state of Cosmic Consciousness (witnessing). And the TM-Sidhis are alleged to help along the development toward Unity. Egg-zactly To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:00 PM, sparaig wrote: Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. In the absence of experience, theory and arguing semantics is all one has. Think of it as a Linus blanket; I find it helps to inspire compassion. Except that, of course, all TMers have the experience of tracing the seed syllable back to its source. But it isn't the *goal* of the method, it's what happens when one follows the instructions for TM. What we're attempting to determine is whether this is also the case with the method Vaj is talking about. To clarify: I want to know if Vaj believes that this is what ALWAYS happens, or what CAN happen. OK. With TM theory, the description is an idealized version of the situation: if our nervous systems were stress free enough, it would be a normal description, but due to stress, the ideal is often quite different from the reality. I'd say we *always* have the experience of tracing the seed syllable back to (i.e., in the direction of) its source; we just don't always get as far as the source. I'm just wondering if there is any difference between an ideal description of what happens during the technique he mentions and what really happens. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 19, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote: sigh Goal of the *method*, not during meditation. I see you're back to the silly semantic game again. No, you're being unclear, Vaj. Tracing the seed syllable back to its source occurs during meditation, does it not? Is that what you are *supposed to do*--is that the instruction for this method, Trace the seed syllable back to its source--or is that what *happens* during meditation as a consequence of the method? With TM, I'd say that it is what CAN happen, but MMY doesn't make the distinction clear either, I guess to avoid too much info too soon. I would consider his discussion of the four values of the point to be a discussion on this. Ultimately however what the specific mechanics are of the meditation method are going to be evident in what state it results in. Is the result dualistic or is it a state of unification? Since it is alleged that TM, after many years of practice results in witnessing, a dualistic state, there's your answer. If you use a method that goes *truly* back to the source, it will awaken a state of unity. How can pure samadhi be dualistic? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 7:22 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:06 PM, sparaig wrote: OK, that's what the Esalen book says. The TM studies are not anecdotal accounts. It will be interesting to see what a 3-month study shows, although 4 months is the average time for the brainwaves to show their greatest average change during TM practice, so a 3- month study may miss changes during meditation. And EEG outside of meditation may well continue to change for decades in the direction of what EEG is like during meditation. It's not clear to me the emphasis will be on EEG. I would doubt that would be the case. I do know they will be looking at the brain itself--not merely the waves it produces (which isn't really telling you what style of neurotransmitter is being released). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:06 PM, sparaig wrote: OK, that's what the Esalen book says. The TM studies are not anecdotal accounts. It will be interesting to see what a 3-month study shows, although 4 months is the average time for the brainwaves to show their greatest average change during TM practice, so a 3- month study may miss changes during meditation. And EEG outside of meditation may well continue to change for decades in the direction of what EEG is like during meditation. It's not clear to me the emphasis will be on EEG. I would doubt that would be the case. I do know they will be looking at the brain itself--not merely the waves it produces (which isn't really telling you what style of neurotransmitter is being released). EEG is easier and cheaper to work with than brain imaging. If they can manqage it, I'm sure they will use that as well, but they'll be using EEG as well. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Good advice, but do you honestly think it's possible? From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. In my opinion that's really how TMers are taught to think, both about the mechanics of meditation and about the scientific measurements thereof. Being stuck in their paradigm is perceived as a *good* thing and is rewarded in the TMO by strokes. How likely is it that, after decades of this kind of reinforcement, someone is open to the possibility of other paradigms being valid? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 8:13 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Good advice, but do you honestly think it's possible? From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. In my opinion that's really how TMers are taught to think, both about the mechanics of meditation and about the scientific measurements thereof. Being stuck in their paradigm is perceived as a *good* thing and is rewarded in the TMO by strokes. How likely is it that, after decades of this kind of reinforcement, someone is open to the possibility of other paradigms being valid? Oh wellanything's possible...although some things are less probable! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Good advice, but do you honestly think it's possible? From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. However, the fact that Lawson states the various provisions of the TM paradigm in comparison with others does not in and of itself indicate such an assemption. In my opinion that's really how TMers are taught to think, both about the mechanics of meditation and about the scientific measurements thereof. Being stuck in their paradigm is perceived as a *good* thing and is rewarded in the TMO by strokes. On the other hand, the only way for such a TMer to evaluate the validity of the paradigm is to compare it to other paradigms, which is what Lawson is attempting to do. Again, I think Barry is making the mistake of confusing This is what Maharishi says with What Maharishi says is true. How likely is it that, after decades of this kind of reinforcement, someone is open to the possibility of other paradigms being valid? How would a TMer discover whether other paradigms may be valid without comparing them to that of TM? In other words, what Barry seems to think is evidence of a TMer's conviction that only the TM paradigm is valid is in fact exactly what one would expect to see if that TMer *were* open to the possibility of other paradigms being valid and were actively exploring that possibility. Indeed, what you would expect to see from a TMer who was convinced that only the TM paradigm is valid would be a lack of interest in exploring other paradigms. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Why are you so reluctant to answer the queston? It's a pretty simple one. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 12:35 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Why are you so reluctant to answer the queston? It's a pretty simple one. Plurium interrogationum. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 12:35 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Why are you so reluctant to answer the queston? It's a pretty simple one. Plurium interrogationum. So prove me wrong, and answer it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
I don't engage much in the bark-fest of tribalistic beligerencies, including in yoga, though common sense and truthfulness are indeed imperative in the life of any being. One of the ways Patanjali got it wrong was in how he defined yoga: What is yoga? There are three definitions: 1) Yogashcittavrttinirodhah: Yoga is the state of cessation of ectoplasmic occupations or mental modifications. 2) Sarvacinta' paritya'go nishcinto yoga ucyate: Yoga is the state in which the faculty of the mind completely stops functioning and the Supreme Witness remains in His characteristic witness-ship. 3) Samyogo yoga ityukto jiiva'tma parama'tmanah: Yoga is the state in which unit consciousness merges in Cosmic Consciousness, and becomes one with the Original Entity. The third rendering is more appropriate, more accurately stated. Senselessness, as the medical term is used, is within the scope of the first description so that rendering is obviously in need of a more accurate description. Number three is that description. I can send the whole article from which this came upon request when you send an email with This World and the Next in the subject line.Flourishingly, Dharma MitraDharmaMitra2 AT gmail.comHelping you Say It With Panache!Because, how you say it can be, and often is, as important as what you want to convey, and what you have to say is very important to you. Copywriting - Editing - Publishing - Publicity Of all that anyone leading or teaching has to convey, the most valuable thing to cultivate and convey to others is a moral conscience. Only such persons deserve to lead others, in any capacity. Anything less is a menace to society. On 4/17/06, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:51 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:22 AM, sparaig wrote: It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual tofind a medium between attention and total relaxation. When this isnot done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM:falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture--see the old thread here on torpor during TM practice and the numerous reportsof sleeping during TM. For a good example of bad vs. good posture see the CBS sunday morning video recently which showed slouching TMer'sand then a group of mindfulness meditators in excellent posture. Ifyou talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And itcauses problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. Or perhaps this is all projection on your part... Actually it's the direct experience of many TMers. There are typically two prerequisites for mantra-diksha: one is posture, the other is correct breathing. What you find when this is ignored is problems arise which could have been prevented if you are just taught the proper way in the first place. But that's what happens when the purity of the tradition is distorted, a common feature of some McMeditation techniques. Or perhaps TM is pure and yours isn't..Actually I was thinking of the Shankaracharya and Patanjalitraditions...yeah maybe Patanjali got it all wrong... -- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 1:02 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 12:35 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Why are you so reluctant to answer the queston? It's a pretty simple one. Plurium interrogationum. So prove me wrong, and answer it. And you were made the questioner for Lawson when? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 1:02 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 12:35 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Why are you so reluctant to answer the queston? It's a pretty simple one. Plurium interrogationum. So prove me wrong, and answer it. And you were made the questioner for Lawson when? What on earth is your *problem*?? I'm my own questioner. I asked my own question. You won't answer either Lawson's original question or my version of it, and your nonresponses have been irrationally testy. Why should I not assume you're reluctant to answer? Both questions were simple and straightforward, yet you're going to amazing lengths to avoid answering them. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 2:54 PM, authfriend wrote: What on earth is your *problem*?? I'm my own questioner. I asked my own question. You won't answer either Lawson's original question or my version of it, and your nonresponses have been irrationally testy. Why should I not assume you're reluctant to answer? Both questions were simple and straightforward, yet you're going to amazing lengths to avoid answering them. It seems a silly question. The outcome and result would be Perfect Enlightenment: Buddhahood and the ability to help others attain the same! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Dharma Mitra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't engage much in the bark-fest of tribalistic beligerencies, including in yoga, though common sense and truthfulness are indeed imperative in the life of any being. One of the ways Patanjali got it wrong was in how he defined yoga: *What is yoga? There are three definitions*: 1) Yogashcittavrttinirodhah: Yoga is the state of cessation of ectoplasmic occupations or mental modifications. 2) Sarvacinta' paritya'go nishcinto yoga ucyate: Yoga is the state in which the faculty of the mind completely stops functioning and the Supreme Witness remains in His characteristic witness-ship. Well, well, well... a more literal translation might be for instance: quitting (parityaagaH) all thinking (sarva-cintaa?) [and becoming?] thoughtless (nish-cintaH) is called (ucyate) yoga. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 2:54 PM, authfriend wrote: What on earth is your *problem*?? I'm my own questioner. I asked my own question. You won't answer either Lawson's original question or my version of it, and your nonresponses have been irrationally testy. Why should I not assume you're reluctant to answer? Both questions were simple and straightforward, yet you're going to amazing lengths to avoid answering them. It seems a silly question. The outcome and result would be Perfect Enlightenment: Buddhahood and the ability to help others attain the same! OK, third nonresponse (or is it fourth?) in a row. I guess we need to go back and restore the context you snipped so you can look at the question again: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence-- much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? That's the question. That the outcome is Buddhahood is not a response to this question. Can you answer the question, or not? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 3:26 PM, authfriend wrote: That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. This was the question I was answering. If you're asking the weird 'prescription vs. description' question I have no idea what you're asking. It's a description of the method and it's what the method achieves--which is again, Buddhahood, Perfect Enlightenment. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 3:26 PM, authfriend wrote: That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. This was the question I was answering. If you're asking the weird 'prescription vs. description' question I have no idea what you're asking. Wow. Really? You really have no idea? And you think it's a weird question? How very odd. It's quite the salient point, because if you confuse DEscription for PREscription, you're likely to defeat your own purposes, because you're mistaking the effect for the cause. Very, very critical distinction when you're translating ancient texts, especially Sanskrit. Prescription = X is what you're supposed to do. Description = This is what happens when you do X. In other words: In this style of Samatha, are you instructed to trace the seed syllable back to its source (i.e., the goal of this style of meditation)? Or do you find yourself tracing the seed syllable back to its source when you practice this style of meditation (i.e., a potential outcome of this style of meditation)? My question was the same as Lawson's, just put in different words. And you still haven't answered either version. It's a description of the method and it's what the method achieves--which is again, Buddhahood, Perfect Enlightenment. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 4:02 PM, authfriend wrote: In other words: In this style of Samatha, are you instructed to trace the seed syllable back to its source (i.e., the goal of this style of meditation)? Or do you find yourself tracing the seed syllable back to its source when you practice this style of meditation (i.e., a potential outcome of this style of meditation)? My question was the same as Lawson's, just put in different words. And you still haven't answered either version. I guess you'd have to have the experience. Think of it as a strawberry--you can describe the strawberry as much as you want, but until you've tasted it, you'll never really know what it's like. It's not what you probably think it is. And of course I've answered the question long ago, you're just don't get it or are game-playing (a common Judy theme). Not everything fits into your TM paradigm Judy. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 4:02 PM, authfriend wrote: In other words: In this style of Samatha, are you instructed to trace the seed syllable back to its source (i.e., the goal of this style of meditation)? Or do you find yourself tracing the seed syllable back to its source when you practice this style of meditation (i.e., a potential outcome of this style of meditation)? My question was the same as Lawson's, just put in different words. And you still haven't answered either version. I guess you'd have to have the experience. Think of it as a strawberry--you can describe the strawberry as much as you want, but until you've tasted it, you'll never really know what it's like. This has never been a question about what the experience is like, of course. It's about whether you are instructed to trace the seed syllable back to its source, or whether that is what occurs as a result of some other instruction. It's not what you probably think it is. I don't have any idea what it is. That wasn't my question. And of course I've answered the question long ago, you're just don't get it or are game-playing (a common Judy theme). Not everything fits into your TM paradigm Judy. No, you most certainly have not answered the question. You don't even *understand* the question--still--as simple as it is. Nor is it somehow tied to the TM paradigm; it could easily be discussed entirely independently of that paradigm. The game-player here is you, Vaj; and you're making yourself look awfully silly. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. So you think its a good thing to have this as a goal? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 18, 2006, at 6:29 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. So you think its a good thing to have this as a goal? Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Good advice, but do you honestly think it's possible? From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. Well of course. However, I'm well aware that my paradigm may be flawed, incorrect and/or incomplete. It's entirely possible that the EEG coherence detected in TMers reporting witnessing isn't an important component of the witnessing state, so the fact that practitioners of some other tradition don't show this means nothing save that the TM researchers are looking at the wrong stuff. As you point out, perhaps there is NO WAY of truely looking at this stuff from a scientific point of view. In my opinion that's really how TMers are taught to think, both about the mechanics of meditation and about the scientific measurements thereof. Being stuck in their paradigm is perceived as a *good* thing and is rewarded in the TMO by strokes. Unlike those who are involved in some other paradigm, including the there's no paradigm paradigm... How likely is it that, after decades of this kind of reinforcement, someone is open to the possibility of other paradigms being valid? Shrug. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. Well of course. However, I'm well aware that my paradigm may be flawed, incorrect and/or incomplete. And one of the ways you *find out* whether your paradigm is flawed, incorrect, and/or incomplete is to compare it closely with other paradigms, including the rationales for those paradigms, and scientific research if it's available. Barry's basing his accusation that you aren't open to other paradigms on the fact that you're doing exactly what would be expected if you *were* open to other paradigms. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 1:02 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 12:35 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. Why are you so reluctant to answer the queston? It's a pretty simple one. Plurium interrogationum. So prove me wrong, and answer it. And you were made the questioner for Lawson when? What on earth is your *problem*?? I'm my own questioner. I asked my own question. You won't answer either Lawson's original question or my version of it, and your nonresponses have been irrationally testy. Why should I not assume you're reluctant to answer? Both questions were simple and straightforward, yet you're going to amazing lengths to avoid answering them. I suspect he knows that assigning a goal to a TM-like technique makes it a Buddha-enabler, rather than a Buddha-killer and he doesn't want to address the contradiction. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 2:54 PM, authfriend wrote: What on earth is your *problem*?? I'm my own questioner. I asked my own question. You won't answer either Lawson's original question or my version of it, and your nonresponses have been irrationally testy. Why should I not assume you're reluctant to answer? Both questions were simple and straightforward, yet you're going to amazing lengths to avoid answering them. It seems a silly question. The outcome and result would be Perfect Enlightenment: Buddhahood and the ability to help others attain the same! Kill dat Buddha dude. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 2:54 PM, authfriend wrote: What on earth is your *problem*?? I'm my own questioner. I asked my own question. You won't answer either Lawson's original question or my version of it, and your nonresponses have been irrationally testy. Why should I not assume you're reluctant to answer? Both questions were simple and straightforward, yet you're going to amazing lengths to avoid answering them. It seems a silly question. The outcome and result would be Perfect Enlightenment: Buddhahood and the ability to help others attain the same! OK, third nonresponse (or is it fourth?) in a row. I guess we need to go back and restore the context you snipped so you can look at the question again: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence- - much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. In other words, is tracing the seed syllable back to its source a PREscription, or a DEscription? That's the question. That the outcome is Buddhahood is not a response to this question. Can you answer the question, or not? It is, in a sense. Vaj appears to be asserting that a goal-driven technique can possibly lead to Buddhahood. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 3:26 PM, authfriend wrote: That wasn't the question. Lawson specified that it was one of the styles. He's asking if what you describe is (a) the *goal* of this style, or (b) a potential outcome. This was the question I was answering. If you're asking the weird 'prescription vs. description' question I have no idea what you're asking. It's a description of the method and it's what the method achieves--which is again, Buddhahood, Perfect Enlightenment. Kill dat Buddha, dude. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 6:29 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:30 AM, sparaig wrote: I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. TM *can* do this. Is this the goal of this style of meditation, or is it merely a description of an idealized outcome? It's just one of the styles of shamatha, that's all--the beginning part. Don't get so stuck in your paradigm. So you think its a good thing to have this as a goal? Being stuck in a paradigm? I wouldn't recommend getting stuck in *any thing*. Having as a goal during meditation the tracing a seed syllable back to its source -- silence. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. Well of course. However, I'm well aware that my paradigm may be flawed, incorrect and/or incomplete. And one of the ways you *find out* whether your paradigm is flawed, incorrect, and/or incomplete is to compare it closely with other paradigms, including the rationales for those paradigms, and scientific research if it's available. Barry's basing his accusation that you aren't open to other paradigms on the fact that you're doing exactly what would be expected if you *were* open to other paradigms. But the scientific paradigm is one that Barry rejects (when it suits him, I think) when dealing with spiritual matters. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. Well of course. However, I'm well aware that my paradigm may be flawed, incorrect and/or incomplete. And one of the ways you *find out* whether your paradigm is flawed, incorrect, and/or incomplete is to compare it closely with other paradigms, including the rationales for those paradigms, and scientific research if it's available. Barry's basing his accusation that you aren't open to other paradigms on the fact that you're doing exactly what would be expected if you *were* open to other paradigms. But the scientific paradigm is one that Barry rejects (when it suits him, I think) when dealing with spiritual matters. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
This very exercise you describe is svadhyaya, essential in the maximum utilization of 8-fold yoga, much like tuning an analog radio to a station to its maximum synergistic potential. A no-brainer, yah, no-brainer, Ha! What a concept. On 4/18/06, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And one of the ways you *find out* whether yourparadigm is flawed, incorrect, and/or incompleteis to compare it closely with other paradigms,including the rationales for those paradigms, andscientific research if it's available. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. Well of course. However, I'm well aware that my paradigm may be flawed, incorrect and/or incomplete. And one of the ways you *find out* whether your paradigm is flawed, incorrect, and/or incomplete is to compare it closely with other paradigms, including the rationales for those paradigms, and scientific research if it's available. Barry's basing his accusation that you aren't open to other paradigms on the fact that you're doing exactly what would be expected if you *were* open to other paradigms. But the scientific paradigm is one that Barry rejects (when it suits him, I think) when dealing with spiritual matters. Oh, indeed. I noted *that* odd contradiction in an earlier post. Barry positively foamed at the mouth when Shemp asked him about evidence for his claim of having seen Frederick Lenz levitate, for example, but derided those who believed in a past golden age as recounted in the Vedas because there was no scientific evidence for it. But I don't think he's referring to the scientific paradigm here, rather the TM paradigm of the nature and mechanics of consciousness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. Well of course. However, I'm well aware that my paradigm may be flawed, incorrect and/or incomplete. And one of the ways you *find out* whether your paradigm is flawed, incorrect, and/or incomplete is to compare it closely with other paradigms, including the rationales for those paradigms, and scientific research if it's available. Barry's basing his accusation that you aren't open to other paradigms on the fact that you're doing exactly what would be expected if you *were* open to other paradigms. But the scientific paradigm is one that Barry rejects (when it suits him, I think) when dealing with spiritual matters. Oh, indeed. I noted *that* odd contradiction in an earlier post. Barry positively foamed at the mouth when Shemp asked him about evidence for his claim of having seen Frederick Lenz levitate, for example, but derided those who believed in a past golden age as recounted in the Vedas because there was no scientific evidence for it. But I don't think he's referring to the scientific paradigm here, rather the TM paradigm of the nature and mechanics of consciousness. Yes, but the core of the scientific paradigm is to be open to the possibility that you might be wrong (or right for that matter) and to methodically work to discover what aspects of what you believe are wrong/right and in what context. The TM paradigm about consciousness assumes that it CAN be studied, at least to some extent externally, by using the various tools of Science. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip From my point of view, Lawson represents an almost- perfect example of the TM paradigm, which is based on the assumption that the TM view of things and descrip- tion of things is correct, and that any view or description that differs from that is by definition incorrect. Well of course. However, I'm well aware that my paradigm may be flawed, incorrect and/or incomplete. And one of the ways you *find out* whether your paradigm is flawed, incorrect, and/or incomplete is to compare it closely with other paradigms, including the rationales for those paradigms, and scientific research if it's available. Barry's basing his accusation that you aren't open to other paradigms on the fact that you're doing exactly what would be expected if you *were* open to other paradigms. But the scientific paradigm is one that Barry rejects (when it suits him, I think) when dealing with spiritual matters. Oh, indeed. I noted *that* odd contradiction in an earlier post. Barry positively foamed at the mouth when Shemp asked him about evidence for his claim of having seen Frederick Lenz levitate, for example, but derided those who believed in a past golden age as recounted in the Vedas because there was no scientific evidence for it. But I don't think he's referring to the scientific paradigm here, rather the TM paradigm of the nature and mechanics of consciousness. Yes, but the core of the scientific paradigm is to be open to the possibility that you might be wrong (or right for that matter) and to methodically work to discover what aspects of what you believe are wrong/right and in what context. Oh, I see what you're saying. So it's a second layer of contradiction. *Very* funny. The TM paradigm about consciousness assumes that it CAN be studied, at least to some extent externally, by using the various tools of Science. Right. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip You won't answer either Lawson's original question or my version of it, and your nonresponses have been irrationally testy. Why should I not assume you're reluctant to answer? Both questions were simple and straightforward, yet you're going to amazing lengths to avoid answering them. I suspect he knows that assigning a goal to a TM-like technique makes it a Buddha-enabler, rather than a Buddha-killer and he doesn't want to address the contradiction. I've never seen him dance *quite* so frantically to avoid responding to a question, and that's saying something. He must know it's a minefield. I just loved the high-vata derangement/pranic dissociation due to meditation red herring. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 15, 2006, at 9:45 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: [...] I suggest you read The Buddhist Tradition of Samatha: Methods for Refining and Examining Consciousness. Journal of Consciousness Studies, 6, No. 2-3, 1999. pp. 175-187. It is available at: http://alanwallace.org/Wallace-Samatha.pdf You'll see the model of meditation does go quite a bit deeper and further, so one would expect the results will be different. Funny, I was just thinking, as I read it, that it doesn't go very deep at all, so one would expect the results to be different... I am actually quite serious: I really do believe that the technique desribed in the pdf is quite distorted and won't go as deep as TM. Ironically for the very reason why it asserts that it goes deep: it advocates control and makes value-judgements about getting lost in thoughts, The TM insight is that getting lost in thoughts in integral to the process -- its the outer stroke where healing takes place. Without that healing, you won't have the long-term opportunity to go deeper. Now, is this TM insight valid, and are all (or any, for that matter) Samatha techniques taught in such a way that the description of them is valid, and does it matter? Who can say? My belief, for what it is worth, is that the TM insight IS valid and my prediction is that even with 8 hours/day practice by the test subjects for a year (this being what the research design for the Samatha Project apparently calls for), Samatha pratitioners will not show the same broad-based EEG coherence found after 4 months of regular TM practice and that even the most experienced Samatha practitioners of 50,000 hours practice or whatever won't show any breath suspension during meditation practice. This last is a freebie since when it happens, its quite dramatic, and even the most dedicated Buddhist practitioners haven't shown signs of breath suspension, at least as reported in any research published in the last few decades. My son scanned the pdf over my shoulder and I asked him if it sounded like it was as easy as TM. He pointed out the effort and control passages and agreed with me that it sounded like TM practice that had gotten distorted over time. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 4:58 AM, sparaig wrote: I am actually quite serious: I really do believe that the technique desribed in the pdf is quite distorted and won't go as deep as TM. Ironically for the very reason why it asserts that it goes deep: it advocates control and makes value-judgements about getting lost in thoughts, Actually in this method people would eventually transcend for significantly longer amounts of time, the important thing being meditational stability and vividness. It is only when you are able to dive deep enough and long enough, do the emotional and mental obscurations dissolve. And of course you do return back to discursive thought. It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual to find a medium between attention and total relaxation. When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture--see the old thread here on torpor during TM practice and the numerous reports of sleeping during TM. For a good example of bad vs. good posture see the CBS sunday morning video recently which showed slouching TMer's and then a group of mindfulness meditators in excellent posture. If you talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And it causes problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. The TM insight is that getting lost in thoughts in integral to the process -- its the outer stroke where healing takes place. Without that healing, you won't have the long-term opportunity to go deeper. All beginning meditators will have an aspect of their practice where they return to discursive thought and then return to their meditative object. If you read the article (which it would seem you did not) you would see clearly where the mechanics of this are clearly described as the preliminary stages of this method--but it is only a beginning part. Eventually attentional stability and vividness increase. Not attaining this and being stuck in continuous patterns of discursive thought is likened to trying to look at a star through a telescope while bouncing about on a bicycle--there is no stability with which examine consciousness with. This last is a freebie since when it happens, its quite dramatic, and even the most dedicated Buddhist practitioners haven't shown signs of breath suspension, at least as reported in any research published in the last few decades. TM has a lowered metabolic rate (in terms of O2 consumption) that is only about 1% different than sleeping. Advanced Buddhist meditators go about 6 times deeper than that. My son scanned the pdf over my shoulder and I asked him if it sounded like it was as easy as TM. He pointed out the effort and control passages and agreed with me that it sounded like TM practice that had gotten distorted over time. Actually the techniques mentioned in the article have a long and continuous history of producing fully enlightened Buddhas. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 4:58 AM, sparaig wrote: I am actually quite serious: I really do believe that the technique desribed in the pdf is quite distorted and won't go as deep as TM. Ironically for the very reason why it asserts that it goes deep: it advocates control and makes value-judgements about getting lost in thoughts, Actually in this method people would eventually transcend for significantly longer amounts of time, the important thing being meditational stability and vividness. It is only when you are able to dive deep enough and long enough, do the emotional and mental obscurations dissolve. And of course you do return back to discursive thought. It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual to find a medium between attention and total relaxation. When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture--see the old thread here on torpor during TM practice and the numerous reports of sleeping during TM. For a good example of bad vs. good posture see the CBS sunday morning video recently which showed slouching TMer's and then a group of mindfulness meditators in excellent posture. If you talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And it causes problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. Or perhaps this is all projection on your part... The TM insight is that getting lost in thoughts in integral to the process -- its the outer stroke where healing takes place. Without that healing, you won't have the long-term opportunity to go deeper. All beginning meditators will have an aspect of their practice where they return to discursive thought and then return to their meditative object. If you read the article (which it would seem you did not) you would see clearly where the mechanics of this are clearly described as the preliminary stages of this method--but it is only a beginning part. Eventually attentional stability and vividness increase. Not attaining this and being stuck in continuous patterns of discursive thought is likened to trying to look at a star through a telescope while bouncing about on a bicycle--there is no stability with which examine consciousness with. How does consciousnes examine itself? And what the hell is discursive thought? This last is a freebie since when it happens, its quite dramatic, and even the most dedicated Buddhist practitioners haven't shown signs of breath suspension, at least as reported in any research published in the last few decades. TM has a lowered metabolic rate (in terms of O2 consumption) that is only about 1% different than sleeping. Advanced Buddhist meditators go about 6 times deeper than that. But is this a good thing? What does it mean? What is the relationship between O2 consumption and transcendence? What is the relationship between o2 consumption and health? My son scanned the pdf over my shoulder and I asked him if it sounded like it was as easy as TM. He pointed out the effort and control passages and agreed with me that it sounded like TM practice that had gotten distorted over time. Actually the techniques mentioned in the article have a long and continuous history of producing fully enlightened Buddhas. Of course they do... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually the techniques mentioned in the article have a long and continuous history of producing fully enlightened Buddhas. Yeah, but they're not TM, so how good can they possibly be? Get a grip, man. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:22 AM, sparaig wrote: It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual to find a medium between attention and total relaxation. When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture--see the old thread here on torpor during TM practice and the numerous reports of sleeping during TM. For a good example of bad vs. good posture see the CBS sunday morning video recently which showed slouching TMer's and then a group of mindfulness meditators in excellent posture. If you talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And it causes problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. Or perhaps this is all projection on your part... Actually it's the direct experience of many TMers. There are typically two prerequisites for mantra-diksha: one is posture, the other is correct breathing. What you find when this is ignored is problems arise which could have been prevented if you are just taught the proper way in the first place. But that's what happens when the purity of the tradition is distorted, a common feature of some McMeditation techniques. All beginning meditators will have an aspect of their practice where they return to discursive thought and then return to their meditative object. If you read the article (which it would seem you did not) you would see clearly where the mechanics of this are clearly described as the preliminary stages of this method--but it is only a beginning part. Eventually attentional stability and vividness increase. Not attaining this and being stuck in continuous patterns of discursive thought is likened to trying to look at a star through a telescope while bouncing about on a bicycle--there is no stability with which examine consciousness with. How does consciousnes examine itself? I thought the article answered this very nicely. Are you sure you read it? And what the hell is discursive thought? Mind chatter. In Sanskrit it is called vitarka. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:18 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually the techniques mentioned in the article have a long and continuous history of producing fully enlightened Buddhas. Yeah, but they're not TM, so how good can they possibly be? Get a grip, man. Gives me another bumper-sticker idea: I'd Rather Be Unstressing To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:22 AM, sparaig wrote: It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual to find a medium between attention and total relaxation. When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture--see the old thread here on torpor during TM practice and the numerous reports of sleeping during TM. For a good example of bad vs. good posture see the CBS sunday morning video recently which showed slouching TMer's and then a group of mindfulness meditators in excellent posture. If you talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And it causes problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. Or perhaps this is all projection on your part... Actually it's the direct experience of many TMers. There are typically two prerequisites for mantra-diksha: one is posture, the other is correct breathing. What you find when this is ignored is problems arise which could have been prevented if you are just taught the proper way in the first place. But that's what happens when the purity of the tradition is distorted, a common feature of some McMeditation techniques. Or perhaps TM is pure and yours isn't... All beginning meditators will have an aspect of their practice where they return to discursive thought and then return to their meditative object. If you read the article (which it would seem you did not) you would see clearly where the mechanics of this are clearly described as the preliminary stages of this method--but it is only a beginning part. Eventually attentional stability and vividness increase. Not attaining this and being stuck in continuous patterns of discursive thought is likened to trying to look at a star through a telescope while bouncing about on a bicycle--there is no stability with which examine consciousness with. How does consciousnes examine itself? I thought the article answered this very nicely. Are you sure you read it? Only if you accept certain definitions of consciousness as valid... And what the hell is discursive thought? Mind chatter. In Sanskrit it is called vitarka. So what of emotive thought? Is that discursive? What of profoundly intuitive thought? Is that discursive? Etc. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:18 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Actually the techniques mentioned in the article have a long and continuous history of producing fully enlightened Buddhas. Yeah, but they're not TM, so how good can they possibly be? Get a grip, man. Gives me another bumper-sticker idea: I'd Rather Be Unstressing So where is the mention of witnessing sleep in all of this? Wallace (the Samatha researcher) doesn't mention it that I saw. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:51 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:22 AM, sparaig wrote: It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual to find a medium between attention and total relaxation. When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture--see the old thread here on torpor during TM practice and the numerous reports of sleeping during TM. For a good example of bad vs. good posture see the CBS sunday morning video recently which showed slouching TMer's and then a group of mindfulness meditators in excellent posture. If you talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And it causes problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. Or perhaps this is all projection on your part... Actually it's the direct experience of many TMers. There are typically two prerequisites for mantra-diksha: one is posture, the other is correct breathing. What you find when this is ignored is problems arise which could have been prevented if you are just taught the proper way in the first place. But that's what happens when the purity of the tradition is distorted, a common feature of some McMeditation techniques. Or perhaps TM is pure and yours isn't.. Actually I was thinking of the Shankaracharya and Patanjali traditions...yeah maybe Patanjali got it all wrong... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:51 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:22 AM, sparaig wrote: It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual to find a medium between attention and total relaxation. When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture--see the old thread here on torpor during TM practice and the numerous reports of sleeping during TM. For a good example of bad vs. good posture see the CBS sunday morning video recently which showed slouching TMer's and then a group of mindfulness meditators in excellent posture. If you talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And it causes problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. Or perhaps this is all projection on your part... Actually it's the direct experience of many TMers. There are typically two prerequisites for mantra-diksha: one is posture, the other is correct breathing. What you find when this is ignored is problems arise which could have been prevented if you are just taught the proper way in the first place. But that's what happens when the purity of the tradition is distorted, a common feature of some McMeditation techniques. Or perhaps TM is pure and yours isn't.. Actually I was thinking of the Shankaracharya and Patanjali traditions...yeah maybe Patanjali got it all wrong... Nyah. Maharishi just understands Patanjali and you don't. Etc. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:52 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:18 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Actually the techniques mentioned in the article have a long and continuous history of producing fully enlightened Buddhas. Yeah, but they're not TM, so how good can they possibly be? Get a grip, man. Gives me another bumper-sticker idea: "I'd Rather Be Unstressing"So where is the mention of witnessing sleep in all of this? Wallace (the Samatha researcher) doesn't mention it that I saw. No he doesn't, although the techniques of witnessing are commonly applied nightly by practitioners of this tradition. He does teach how to do it.DREAMING AND AWAKENING A 10-day Residential Training Program in Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan Dream Yoga with Stephen LaBerge and Alan Wallace Kalani, Hawaii, May 10-19, 2006 Join us for ten days and nine nights of balanced fun and focus on consciousness, dreaming and awakening at the beautiful, dream-inspiring Kalani Oceanside Retreat Center on the Big Island of Hawaii. Using the most effective techniques and technology, derived from Tibetan dream yoga and Western science, this workshop will provide an ideal opportunity to devote time to cultivating your lucid dreaming skills and enhancing mindfulness in waking life. Our program will feature group and individual exercises for developing awareness skills and valuable insights into the application of lucidity; a sleep schedule optimized for the promotion of lucid dreams; use of lucid dream induction technology; discussion sessions and personal guidance. Participants will also have a unique opportunity to participate in ongoing research on a natural substance that, according to recent studies, has been shown to be an effective promoter of lucidity. We will practice meditation and other techniques, especially drawn from the "Great Perfection" (Dzogchen) tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, designed to enhance the serenity, stability, and vividness of attention. The aim of such training is to experience the nature of our own awareness, free of all conceptual constructs. Such meditative training is an excellent complement to the Tibetan practices of dream yoga. We shall also explore the practical and theoretical differences and common ground between the modern scientific approach to lucid dreaming and the ancient Tibetan approach to dream yoga. The stunning environment of Kalani, the only coastal lodging facility within Hawaii's largest conservation area, will be naturally conducive to lifting our minds out of limiting habits of thought and action. Participants in our past workshops have found it a wonderful combination of work and play, and enjoyed phenomenal success at lucid dreaming, with most having at least one during the program. For testimonials, see: http://lucidity.com/daa/testimonials.html Join us this May and be assured that, in addition to having lots of fun and making new friends, you will experience reality in a new light, and the principles of lucid dreaming you will learn will serve you well in discovering what is important for you in your life, day and night. ABOUT THE PRESENTERS Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D. is a world renowned authority on lucid dreaming. His pioneering studies at Stanford University have brought scientific attention to this potentially illuminating state of consciousness, and his best-selling books Lucid Dreaming and Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, have introduced many to the experience. For the past 20 years, Dr. LaBerge has researched methods for teaching people to become lucid dreamers, developing techniques and lucid dreaming induction devices. B. Alan Wallace, Ph.D., a scholar and practitioner of Buddhism since 1970, has taught Buddhist theory and meditation throughout Europe and the Americas for 30 years. He devoted fourteen years to training as a Tibetan Buddhist monk and was ordained by the Dalai Lama. He also earned an undergraduate degree in physics and the philosophy of science at Amherst College and a doctorate in religious Studies at Stanford University. Currently Dr. Wallace is the president of the Santa Barbara Institute for Consciousness Studies http://www.sbinstitute.com/ SCHEDULE Wednesday evening, May 10 - Friday morning, May 19, 2006. [BAW is scheduled to present May 13-17.] To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:52 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:18 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Actually the techniques mentioned in the article have a long and continuous history of producing fully enlightened Buddhas. Yeah, but they're not TM, so how good can they possibly be? Get a grip, man. Gives me another bumper-sticker idea: I'd Rather Be Unstressing So where is the mention of witnessing sleep in all of this? Wallace (the Samatha researcher) doesn't mention it that I saw. No he doesn't, although the techniques of witnessing are commonly applied nightly by practitioners of this tradition. He does teach how to do it. Lucid dreaming is different than witnessing dreaming. Even the lucid dreaming folk (other than these guys apparently) make that distinction these days. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:19 AM, sparaig wrote: Lucid dreaming is different than witnessing dreaming. Even the lucid dreaming folk (other than these guys apparently) make that distinction these days. The techniques work for witnessing ALL states, including waking. In terms of spiritual practice all are helpful. For example if you learn to meditate *while* in the dream state, you can extend your practice considerably and work out issues impossible to do in waking. What's neat is to see how dreams arise out the the deep sleep state and then dissolve back into it. It's like having your own holodeck! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 4:58 AM, sparaig wrote: I am actually quite serious: I really do believe that the technique desribed in the pdf is quite distorted and won't go as deep as TM. Ironically for the very reason why it asserts that it goes deep: it advocates control and makes value- judgements about getting lost in thoughts, Actually in this method people would eventually transcend for significantly longer amounts of time, the important thing being meditational stability and vividness. It is only when you are able to dive deep enough and long enough, do the emotional and mental obscurations dissolve. And of course you do return back to discursive thought. It does not advocate control but leaves it to the individual to find a medium between attention and total relaxation. But of course this *is* control. The article even describes introspection as the quality control aspect of this approach. The remedy for counteracting laxity or inattention is said to be the cultivation of the will, which is here closely associated with intervention and effort. When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture But these are not considered problems in TM. snip If you talk to experienced meditators who observe TMers, one of the common observations is that TMers don't know how to sit. And it causes problems, particularly with excessive thoughts. But excessive thoughts are not considered a problem in TM. The TM insight is that getting lost in thoughts in integral to the process -- its the outer stroke where healing takes place. Without that healing, you won't have the long-term opportunity to go deeper. All beginning meditators will have an aspect of their practice where they return to discursive thought and then return to their meditative object. If you read the article (which it would seem you did not) you would see clearly where the mechanics of this are clearly described as the preliminary stages of this method--but it is only a beginning part. Eventually attentional stability and vividness increase. In the TM context, the idea is that the healing that takes place during the outer stroke ultimately makes possible what you call greater attentional stability and vividness. So what you say doesn't address Lawson's point at all. It appears from the article that the approach it describes assumes that cause and effect are the reverse of what is assumed in TM, which is typical of the differences between the TM teaching and traditional teaching. Not attaining this and being stuck in continuous patterns of discursive thought is likened to trying to look at a star through a telescope while bouncing about on a bicycle--there is no stability with which examine consciousness with. In the TM context, discursive thought during meditation is said to arise as a result of stress release, or the dissolution of impurities brought about by the deep rest of the innter stroke. The more impurities that are dissolved in this way, the fewer there are to arise and trigger discursive thought. So being stuck in patterns of discursive thought would be a self-limiting condition, like pouring water out of a bucket. Eventually there is no more water to be poured. (My metaphor, not TM's.) The point being that there is a very fundamental difference in understanding between TM and the approach you describe. Nothing in what you've said or in that article actually addresses this difference beyond mere contradiction. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:55 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:19 AM, sparaig wrote: Lucid dreaming is different than witnessing dreaming. Even the lucid dreaming folk (other than these guys apparently) make that distinction these days. The techniques work for witnessing ALL states, including waking. In terms of spiritual practice all are helpful. For example if you learn to meditate *while* in the dream state, you can extend your practice considerably and work out issues impossible to do in waking. What's neat is to see how dreams arise out the the deep sleep state and then dissolve back into it. It's like having your own holodeck! Will be interesting to see the research on these techniques... It's even more interesting to experience them yourself. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:51 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip just taught the proper way in the first place. But that's what happens when the purity of the tradition is distorted, a common feature of some McMeditation techniques. Or perhaps TM is pure and yours isn't.. Actually I was thinking of the Shankaracharya and Patanjali traditions...yeah maybe Patanjali got it all wrong... Or maybe the interpretations of them you espouse got it all wrong. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:55 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:19 AM, sparaig wrote: Lucid dreaming is different than witnessing dreaming. Even the lucid dreaming folk (other than these guys apparently) make that distinction these days. The techniques work for witnessing ALL states, including waking. In terms of spiritual practice all are helpful. For example if you learn to meditate *while* in the dream state, you can extend your practice considerably and work out issues impossible to do in waking. What's neat is to see how dreams arise out the the deep sleep state and then dissolve back into it. It's like having your own holodeck! Will be interesting to see the research on these techniques... It's even more interesting to experience them yourself. I'm quite happy with TM and the TM-Sidhis thanks. Without substantial scientific evidence to convince me that there's something better out there, I see no reason for future experimentation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:51 AM, authfriend wrote: When this is not done properly you get problems like those often seen in TM: falling asleep and slouching, bad asana or posture But these are not considered problems in TM. Obviously. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:51 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip just taught the proper way in the first place. But that's what happens when the purity of the tradition is distorted, a common feature of some McMeditation techniques. Or perhaps TM is pure and yours isn't.. Actually I was thinking of the Shankaracharya and Patanjali traditions...yeah maybe Patanjali got it all wrong... Or maybe the interpretations of them you espouse got it all wrong. Nonsense. Long-time traditions couldn't possibly be wrong about something. Only a non-enlightened person like MMY could possibly think that the tradition(s) that Vaj agrees with could possibly have some problems due to the telephone effect of oral traditions. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 4:58 AM, sparaig wrote: I am actually quite serious: I really do believe that the technique desribed in the pdf is quite distorted and won't go as deep as TM. Ironically for the very reason why it asserts that it goes deep: it advocates control and makes value- judgements about getting lost in thoughts, Actually in this method people would eventually transcend for significantly longer amounts of time But does depth correspond directly to longer periods of transcending? Or might it correspond to the level of impurities (stress) in the nervous system being dissolved (which manifest as discursive thoughts)? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:55 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: The techniques work for witnessing ALL states, including waking. In terms of spiritual practice all are helpful. For example if you learn to meditate *while* in the dream state, you can extend your practice considerably and work out issues impossible to do in waking. I agree completely. What's neat is to see how dreams arise out the the deep sleep state and then dissolve back into it. It's like having your own holodeck! Only better because it's real, not Memorex. ;-) Will be interesting to see the research on these techniques... It's even more interesting to experience them yourself. Some people prefer Memorex, and reading about other people's experiences. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 10:15 AM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 4:58 AM, sparaig wrote: I am actually quite serious: I really do believe that the technique desribed in the pdf is quite distorted and won't go as "deep" as TM. Ironically for the very reason why it asserts that it goes deep: it advocates control and makes value- judgements about getting lost in thoughts, Actually in this method people would eventually transcend for significantly longer amounts of timeBut does "depth" correspond directly to longer periodsof transcending? Or might it correspond to the level ofimpurities ("stress") in the nervous system beingdissolved (which manifest as discursive thoughts)?Presumably that's what research shows. When you can 'get down and stay down' the mind purifies spontaneously. The research I read on this was from the centerpointe people. They claim that you have to increase this "immersion" in PC slowly over a couple of years in most people, otherwise it's just too much unstressing to process.Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods:"With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. (...)Even when one has reached the state of balanced placement, Samatha has still not been fully achieved. Its attainment is marked first by a dramatic shift in one’s nervous system, characterized briefly by a not unpleasant sense of heaviness and numbness on the top of the head. This is followed by an obvious increase in mental and then physi- cal pliancy, entailing a cheerfulness and lightness of the mind and a buoyancy and lightness of the body. Consequently, experiences of physical bliss and then mental bliss arise, which are temporarily quite overwhelming. But that rapture soon fades, and with their disappearance, the attention is sustained firmly and calmly upon the meditative object, and Samatha is fully achieved. The above claims concerning a shift in one’s nervous system and its consequences have to do with first-hand, empiri- cal, physiological experiences. It remains to be seen how, or whether, such a theory and the corresponding physiological changes can be detected objectively and under- stood in modern scientific terms. "
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 10:15 AM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 4:58 AM, sparaig wrote: I am actually quite serious: I really do believe that the technique desribed in the pdf is quite distorted and won't go as deep as TM. Ironically for the very reason why it asserts that it goes deep: it advocates control and makes value- judgements about getting lost in thoughts, Actually in this method people would eventually transcend for significantly longer amounts of time But does depth correspond directly to longer periods of transcending? Or might it correspond to the level of impurities (stress) in the nervous system being dissolved (which manifest as discursive thoughts)? Presumably that's what research shows. When you can 'get down and stay down' the mind purifies spontaneously. The research I read on this was from the centerpointe people. They claim that you have to increase this immersion in PC slowly over a couple of years in most people, otherwise it's just too much unstressing to process. And the published research on this is found where, again? Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... (...) Even when one has reached the state of balanced placement, Samatha has still not been fully achieved. Its attainment is marked first by a dramatic shift in one's nervous system, characterized briefly by a not unpleasant sense of heaviness and numbness on the top of the head. This is followed by an obvious increase in mental and then physi- cal pliancy, entailing a cheerfulness and lightness of the mind and a buoyancy and lightness of the body. Consequently, experiences of physical bliss and then mental bliss arise, which are temporarily quite overwhelming. But that rapture soon fades, and with their disappearance, the attention is sustained firmly and calmly upon the meditative object, and Samatha is fully achieved. The above claims concerning a shift in one's nervous system and its consequences have to do with first-hand, empiri- cal, physiological experiences. It remains to be seen how, or whether, such a theory and the corresponding physiological changes can be detected objectively and under- stood in modern scientific terms. So where is pure consciousness in sustained firmly and calmly upon the meditative object? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:49 AM, sparaig wrote: Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... People transcend from the start of their practice, for the length of their entire meditation session, i.e. they transcend 20 minutes at a time or hours at a time if they wish? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:49 AM, sparaig wrote: Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... People transcend from the start of their practice, for the length of their entire meditation session, i.e. they transcend 20 minutes at a time or hours at a time if they wish? And you have documentation of this? And this voluntary transcending turns into spontaneous transcending for months and years at a time as documented where? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:33 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:49 AM, sparaig wrote: Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... People transcend from the start of their practice, for the length of their entire meditation session, i.e. they transcend 20 minutes at a time or hours at a time if they wish? And you have documentation of this? And this voluntary transcending turns into spontaneous transcending for months and years at a time as documented where? LOL. You're the one who said you could do that with TM from the beginning... Hang around some other meditators, you might learn a thing or two or three... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:33 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:49 AM, sparaig wrote: Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... People transcend from the start of their practice, for the length of their entire meditation session, i.e. they transcend 20 minutes at a time or hours at a time if they wish? And you have documentation of this? And this voluntary transcending turns into spontaneous transcending for months and years at a time as documented where? LOL. You're the one who said you could do that with TM from the beginning... Hang around some other meditators, you might learn a thing or two or three... There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:54 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:33 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:49 AM, sparaig wrote: Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... People transcend from the start of their practice, for the length of their entire meditation session, i.e. they transcend 20 minutes at a time or hours at a time if they wish? And you have documentation of this? And this voluntary transcending turns into spontaneous transcending for months and years at a time as documented where? LOL. You're the one who said you could do that with TM from the beginning... Hang around some other meditators, you might learn a thing or two or three... There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:54 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:33 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:49 AM, sparaig wrote: Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and inter- vention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... People transcend from the start of their practice, for the length of their entire meditation session, i.e. they transcend 20 minutes at a time or hours at a time if they wish? And you have documentation of this? And this voluntary transcending turns into spontaneous transcending for months and years at a time as documented where? LOL. You're the one who said you could do that with TM from the beginning... Hang around some other meditators, you might learn a thing or two or three... There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
sparaig wrote: Of course, there's no evidence that transcendence style meditation has anything to do with TM. There is plenty of evidence that TM is transcendence style Buddhist meditation. The first historical yogin in India was Shakya the Muni. Meditation is first mentioned, not in the Vedas, but in the Buddha's discourses. TM is a mechanical process which is based on Causation. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
Vaj wrote: Hang around some other meditators, you might learn a thing or two or three... So, how long has it been since you were in group program inside a Maharishi Golden Dome? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 2:13 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Vaj wrote: Hang around some other meditators, you might learn a thing or two or three... So, how long has it been since you were in group program inside a Maharishi Golden Dome? Non sequitur. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:33 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:49 AM, sparaig wrote: Wallace, in the aforementioned article, states that a purification does happen once one sustains the state for extended periods: With the attainment of the ninth state called balanced placement, accomplished with the force of familiarization, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; for after that, uninterrupted, sustained at- tention occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of effort, and intervention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Which happens all the time, from the start, with TM... People transcend from the start of their practice, for the length of their entire meditation session, i.e. they transcend 20 minutes at a time or hours at a time if they wish? And you have documentation of this? And this voluntary transcending turns into spontaneous transcending for months and years at a time as documented where? LOL. You're the one who said you could do that with TM from the beginning... I'm virtually positive you're well aware that is *not* what Lawson was saying, Vaj. Look at the quote he was responding to. He's saying natural balance of the mind is maintained without interference from the beginning in TM. And in any case, Wallace isn't talking about transcending in that quotation, he's talking about maintaining attention on the object. Hang around some other meditators, you might learn a thing or two or three... Translation: No, Vaj has no documentation of this. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? If it's the case, sure. But how do we know it's the case if there's no documentation? And above you appear to be suggesting there *is* documentation, you just refuse to provide it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sparaig wrote: Of course, there's no evidence that transcendence style meditation has anything to do with TM. There is plenty of evidence that TM is transcendence style Buddhist meditation. The first historical yogin in India was Shakya the Muni. Meditation is first mentioned, not in the Vedas, but in the Buddha's discourses. TM is a mechanical process which is based on Causation. Perhaps, but if you read what Vaj referred to, the description starts out sounding like its talking about TM and then gets all bogged down in effort/control/appropriate tension, etc. A typical telephone effect description of TM, IMHO. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... Where oh where did you come up with that? I've clearly sat smack dab in the middle of the transcendent for long periods during TM meditation and stayed there for long periods of time, been fully aware of myself, my thoughts, even been really bored, etc. during these long periods. I asked Maharishi in person, about it and he said it was exactly what it seemed like, growth of CC with the ability to maintain pure consciousness along with thoughts, etc. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 7:22 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... It'd probably depend on what *style* of shamatha you were doing. For ex. there is a form of shamatha that traces the seed syllable back to it's source--silence--much like TM. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 17, 2006, at 2:49 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? If it's the case, sure. But how do we know it's the case if there's no documentation? And above you appear to be suggesting there *is* documentation, you just refuse to provide it. Talked to Alan today and apparently it's all basically anecdotal accounts of singular yogis, not groups of people. One exceptional person is not what people are looking for, they're looking for groups of people doing it at once to prove it can be done by others. Thus the Shamatha 3 month trial--a precursor to a longer one year version. The PI is going to be Dr. Cliff Saron. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? I suspect that what you call transcending is not the same as what TMers call transcending. Given that TMers don't report transcending during TM until after-the-fact, this is hardly surprising... Where oh where did you come up with that? I've clearly sat smack dab in the middle of the transcendent for long periods during TM meditation and stayed there for long periods of time, been fully aware of myself, my thoughts, even been really bored, etc. during these long periods. I asked Maharishi in person, about it and he said it was exactly what it seemed like, growth of CC with the ability to maintain pure consciousness along with thoughts, etc. Sure, but that's not samadhi-by-itself. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 2:49 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 17, 2006, at 1:08 PM, sparaig wrote: There's plenty of people who claim plenty of things. However, I'm still waiting for documentation of your claim as in research published in peer reviewed journals. And why are you waiting for that? You need to get out more dude. In other words, you don't have any evidence of your claims beyond Ken Wilber playing games with a home EEG machine. LOL. No I'm just not obsessed with the map, I prefer the territory itself. Why are you so shocked about this? Has TM conditioned you to believe people *can't* transcend for more than a couple of minutes of apnea? It really seems to other you what Wallace is saying. Shouldn't we all be happy? If it's the case, sure. But how do we know it's the case if there's no documentation? And above you appear to be suggesting there *is* documentation, you just refuse to provide it. Talked to Alan today and apparently it's all basically anecdotal accounts of singular yogis, not groups of people. One exceptional person is not what people are looking for, they're looking for groups of people doing it at once to prove it can be done by others. Thus the Shamatha 3 month trial--a precursor to a longer one year version. The PI is going to be Dr. Cliff Saron. OK, that's what the Esalen book says. The TM studies are not anecdotal accounts. It will be interesting to see what a 3-month study shows, although 4 months is the average time for the brainwaves to show their greatest average change during TM practice, so a 3- month study may miss changes during meditation. And EEG outside of meditation may well continue to change for decades in the direction of what EEG is like during meditation. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 15, 2006, at 9:45 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 14, 2006, at 8:13 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Hiya: I recently received this from the Shamatha Project, which will be a rather sophisticated look at 'transcendence style meditation' using all the methodologies in current brain research. You also might be interested in the Neuroscientists who are spearheading the Mind and Life Project: http://www.investigatingthemind.org/ Of course, there's no evidence that transcendence style meditation has anything to do with TM. TM *is* a basic form of Shamatha (transcendence style meditation) using a mantra. There are hundreds of different types of of shamatha. That might be, but the site I quoted seemed to almost get TM and then wandered off into the ozone. It will be interesting to see if the physiological changes are the same for whatever transcendence style meditation technique they test. I suggest you read The Buddhist Tradition of Samatha: Methods for Refining and Examining Consciousness. Journal of Consciousness Studies, 6, No. 2-3, 1999. pp. 175-187. It is available at: http://alanwallace.org/Wallace-Samatha.pdf You'll see the model of meditation does go quite a bit deeper and further, so one would expect the results will be different. Funny, I was just thinking, as I read it, that it doesn't go very deep at all, so one would expect the results to be different... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 14, 2006, at 8:13 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hiya: I recently received this from the Shamatha Project, which will be a rather sophisticated look at 'transcendence style meditation' using all the methodologies in current brain research. You also might be interested in the Neuroscientists who are spearheading the Mind and Life Project: http://www.investigatingthemind.org/ Of course, there's no evidence that "transcendence style meditation" has anything to do with TM.TM *is* a basic form of Shamatha (transcendence style meditation) using a mantra. There are hundreds of different types of of shamatha. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 14, 2006, at 8:13 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Hiya: I recently received this from the Shamatha Project, which will be a rather sophisticated look at 'transcendence style meditation' using all the methodologies in current brain research. You also might be interested in the Neuroscientists who are spearheading the Mind and Life Project: http://www.investigatingthemind.org/ Of course, there's no evidence that transcendence style meditation has anything to do with TM. TM *is* a basic form of Shamatha (transcendence style meditation) using a mantra. There are hundreds of different types of of shamatha. That might be, but the site I quoted seemed to almost get TM and then wandered off into the ozone. It will be interesting to see if the physiological changes are the same for whatever transcendence style meditation technique they test. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
On Apr 15, 2006, at 9:45 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 14, 2006, at 8:13 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Hiya: I recently received this from the Shamatha Project, which will be a rather sophisticated look at 'transcendence style meditation' using all the methodologies in current brain research. You also might be interested in the Neuroscientists who are spearheading the Mind and Life Project: http://www.investigatingthemind.org/ Of course, there's no evidence that "transcendence style meditation" has anything to do with TM. TM *is* a basic form of Shamatha (transcendence style meditation) using a mantra. There are hundreds of different types of of shamatha.That might be, but the site I quoted seemed to almost "get" TM and then wandered off into the ozone. It will be interesting to see if the physiological changes are the same for whatever "transcendence style meditation" technique they test.I suggest you read "The Buddhist Tradition of Samatha: Methods for Refining and Examining Consciousness." Journal of Consciousness Studies, 6, No. 2-3, 1999. pp. 175-187. It is available at:http://alanwallace.org/Wallace-Samatha.pdfYou'll see the model of meditation does go quite a bit deeper and further, so one would expect the results will be different. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
Thank you for that referal, wayback, I'll look into him now. Are you familiar with any brain research done on TMers? Flourishingly,Dharma MitraOf all that anyone leading or teaching has to convey, the most valuable thing to cultivate and convey to others is a moral conscience. Only such persons deserve to lead others, in any capacity. Anything less is a menace to society. On 4/14/06, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The book Why God Won't Go Away includes discussion of some brain research whilepeople are doing various typees of meditation. The author is a professor at th Univ of Penn inPhiladelphia (can't remember his name at the moment).He is very engaged in this typeof research and is a legitimate sicentist. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Dharma Mitra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for that referal, wayback, I'll look into him now. Are you familiar with any brain research done on TMers? Flourishingly, Dharma Mitra All the recent brain research on TM has been done by fred travis at MUM. He spoke at the recent david lynch - donovan event at MUM - perhaps the links to that will give you a start to his work. Of all that anyone leading or teaching has to convey, the most valuable thing to cultivate and convey to others is a moral conscience. Only such persons deserve to lead others, in any capacity. *Anything less is a menace to society*. On 4/14/06, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The book Why God Won't Go Away includes discussion of some brain research while people are doing various typees of meditation. The author is a professor at th Univ of Penn in Philadelphia (can't remember his name at the moment). He is very engaged in this type of research and is a legitimate sicentist. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does ethics have to do with oral sex? Kant's categorical imperative -- paraphrasing, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Dharma Mitra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have information about brain studies, or any other allopathic studies of TM and the brain or yoga, mediation, chi kung, reiki and the brain? http://tinyurl.com/lozhc Meditation States and Traits: EEG, ERP, and Neuroimaging Studies What concerns would you have if you, your friends and loved ones or your organizaiton(s) were involved with these practices and brain research? With simple TM practiced 2x daily, not much. My son has severe anxiety problems. His doctors counselors encourage his participation. They are QUITE aware of any problems that might be associated with TM and mental problems and still encourage his practice. None of them practice TM. Given all the State and Defense Department and corporate research into exploiting people and the masses as a whole, I'm a bit concerned about how to put constraints on any such subtle brain/mind/body research, though I want to move ahead in this research. Check out what the NRC says about meditation and the response from the TM researchers: http://tinyurl.com/nd8uz http://www.global-country.net/documentFiles/14.pdf What are your thoughts regarding solutions to pursue and preserve such research for humanity and facilitate our forward march toward subtler realms in human evolution through yoga, meditation and such? Respond to me privately if you prefer. The TMO, the Noetic Institute, organizations set up by the Dali Lama, and the database of published research found via pubmed search engine all ensure this, I think. The key is funding the research. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The book Why God Won't Go Away includes discussion of some brain research while people are doing various typees of meditation. The author is a professor at th Univ of Penn in Philadelphia (can't remember his name at the moment). He is very engaged in this type of research and is a legitimate sicentist. ALl such books are written by people with agendas. All studies done on meditation are also done by people with agendas, but the scientific method is designed to reduce bias, which isn't usually the case with books, though the Noetic Instute's summary of meditation research through 1995 is a pretty neutral source, IMHO. The pubmed search engine has veritually all the latest research on meditation, etc., listed (if it's in a peer reviewed journal). The other URLs I've listed are also of value, IMHO. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch_intro1.htm Books seldom are unless you happen to already agree with the author and want a nice bullet-list of Talking Points. For TM, any of the Movement sanctioned books by TM researchers is a good start. The research coming out of the Dali Lama's institute is probably your best source for Buddhist-related meditation research. Likewise with any books that they publish. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Research, Ethics and the Good Head
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Dharma Mitra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for that referal, wayback, I'll look into him now. Are you familiar with any brain research done on TMers? Er, http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/biblio.htm or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed search terms: transcendental meditation, EEG Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
