Re: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
Hi Jordan, Many thanks for the feedback :) :) I'm really happy that peeps are finding it useful - It was very much an early dotnet project for me and done over a few days so is very very rough in places. I really need to tidy it up and also move the functions under the function accordion section ;) I also want to break sections up to highlight versions of CF to add all the new CF9 code comparisons etc. Thanks, Jose Jose Diaz-Salcedo www.cfdot.net On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:15 AM, C. Hatton Humphrey chumph...@gmail.comwrote: Im not trying to nitpick, I only noticed them (except for Coldfusion... that usually stands out to me) because I sent the link to my colleagues along with the text from the home page as a description for the link. Two things that bug me - 1. It's C# which is one code-behind language for .NET. I have yet to have someone give me a quantifiable performance-based reason why it better than other languages in the family. 2. The .NET version does not include the ASP.NET http://asp.net/ part of the equation. For example: http://www.cfdot.net/cfdot/Pages/CodeDetail.aspx?id=7 (CFOutput) the .NET code is simply setting the .Text property of a text box. Where's the creation of the object? It's a great concept but as implemented it only confuses the whole CF vs .NET conversation. Hatton ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334763 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
@Jose, I think that cfdot.net looks excellent. Thank you for doing this for both the CF and ASP.NET community's. @hatton, I prefer C# over Visual Basic because of two reasons. 1. C# Has More Jobs available a. http://www.careerbuilder.com/Jobseeker/Jobs/JobResults.aspx?SB%3Asbkw=C%23 - 2,399 jobs found b. http://www.careerbuilder.com/Jobseeker/Jobs/JobResults.aspx?SB%3Asbkw=Visual +Basic - 1,568 jobs found 2. On average C# developers make more money. a. http://www.indeed.com/salary/VB-Net-Developer.html b. http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=C%23+Developer Paul Alkema http://paulalkema.com/ -Original Message- From: C. Hatton Humphrey [mailto:chumph...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:16 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net) Im not trying to nitpick, I only noticed them (except for Coldfusion... that usually stands out to me) because I sent the link to my colleagues along with the text from the home page as a description for the link. Two things that bug me - 1. It's C# which is one code-behind language for .NET. I have yet to have someone give me a quantifiable performance-based reason why it better than other languages in the family. 2. The .NET version does not include the ASP.NET part of the equation. For example: http://www.cfdot.net/cfdot/Pages/CodeDetail.aspx?id=7 (CFOutput) the .NET code is simply setting the .Text property of a text box. Where's the creation of the object? It's a great concept but as implemented it only confuses the whole CF vs .NET conversation. Hatton ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334764 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
Maybe you should make it clear that the CFML-examples also work for Railo and Open Blue Dragon - hence you have three CFML-servers ;-) Sebastiaan = So long and thanx 4 all the fish == Onlinebase.nl Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:49:37 +0100 Subject: Re: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net) From: bleached...@gmail.com To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Hi Jordan, Many thanks for the feedback :) :) I'm really happy that peeps are finding it useful - It was very much an early dotnet project for me and done over a few days so is very very rough in places. I really need to tidy it up and also move the functions under the function accordion section ;) I also want to break sections up to highlight versions of CF to add all the new CF9 code comparisons etc. Thanks, Jose Jose Diaz-Salcedo www.cfdot.net On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:15 AM, C. Hatton Humphrey chumph...@gmail.comwrote: Im not trying to nitpick, I only noticed them (except for Coldfusion... that usually stands out to me) because I sent the link to my colleagues along with the text from the home page as a description for the link. Two things that bug me - 1. It's C# which is one code-behind language for .NET. I have yet to have someone give me a quantifiable performance-based reason why it better than other languages in the family. 2. The .NET version does not include the ASP.NET http://asp.net/ part of the equation. For example: http://www.cfdot.net/cfdot/Pages/CodeDetail.aspx?id=7 (CFOutput) the .NET code is simply setting the .Text property of a text box. Where's the creation of the object? It's a great concept but as implemented it only confuses the whole CF vs .NET conversation. Hatton ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334765 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
All language religion aside - it's not a fair comparison, it's biased towards CF. You should be more honest in your comparisons if you expect anyone to take it seriously. Example: CFEXECUTE: CF: cfexecute name=C:\WinNT\System32\netstat.exe /cfexecute ASP.NET 01.using System; 02.using System.Drawing; 03.using System.Collections; 04.using System.ComponentModel; 05.using System.Windows.Forms; 06.using System.Data; 07.using System.Diagnostics; 08. 09.... 10. 11.//Declare and instantiate a new process component. 12.System.Diagnostics.Process process1; 13.process1= new System.Diagnostics.Process(); 14. 15.//Do not receive an event when the process exits. 16.process1.EnableRaisingEvents = false; 17. 18. 19.//The /C Tells Windows to Run The Command then Terminate 20.string strCmdLine; 21.strCmdLine = /C netstat ; 22.System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(CMD.exe,strCmdLine); 23.process1.Close(); All that is actually needed is: System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(netstat.exe); All of the other stuff is extraneous. The need for the using statements is negated by the fully-qualified name for the method. The object process1 isn't used at all for the actual execution. Passing the netstat.exe executable to the cmd.exe process is ridiculous - you could do the same with CFEXECUTE. Adding in extra string arguments just builds up the amount of code you want to display. And FYI: this one line of code can be executed in the .aspx page: % System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(netstat.exe) % There are numerous similar examples on your website. It's a dishonest misrepresentation. - Matt Small This is pretty sweet Jose. Thanks for taking the time to create this site! An excellent resource indeed. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Railo Community Distributions On 06/22/2010 06:47 AM, Jose Diaz wrote: ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334767 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
Matthew you appear to have taken offence to my comparisons, I did not intend to belittle .net in anyway. I will openly admit when I built the site and added the comparisons over a year ago, I was new to .net. I am not biased either over the past year and a half I have become a highly certified MCPD, I admit I have been a CF developer for the past 10 years and love it but I find .net equally as exciting ITS ALL WEB TO ME! The aim of the site is to at the very least point either a CF or .net developer in the right direction regarding a specific piece of functionality. The goal is to open up the barriers between the two languages, if you know better ways of representing a particular piece of functionality just email me and I will update the entry happily. I honestly did not mean to annoy anyone, there is always more than one way to achieve something. This is an academic free resource I'm all for learning and sharing the knowledge ;) Jose Diaz On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Matthew Small chestypul...@beachbum.netwrote: All language religion aside - it's not a fair comparison, it's biased towards CF. You should be more honest in your comparisons if you expect anyone to take it seriously. Example: CFEXECUTE: CF: cfexecute name=C:\WinNT\System32\netstat.exe /cfexecute ASP.NET http://asp.net/ 01.using System; 02.using System.Drawing; 03.using System.Collections; 04.using System.ComponentModel; 05.using System.Windows.Forms; 06.using System.Data; 07.using System.Diagnostics; 08. 09.... 10. 11.//Declare and instantiate a new process component. 12.System.Diagnostics.Process process1; 13.process1= new System.Diagnostics.Process(); 14. 15.//Do not receive an event when the process exits. 16.process1.EnableRaisingEvents = false; 17. 18. 19.//The /C Tells Windows to Run The Command then Terminate 20.string strCmdLine; 21.strCmdLine = /C netstat ; 22.System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(CMD.exe,strCmdLine); 23.process1.Close(); All that is actually needed is: System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(netstat.exe); All of the other stuff is extraneous. The need for the using statements is negated by the fully-qualified name for the method. The object process1 isn't used at all for the actual execution. Passing the netstat.exe executable to the cmd.exe process is ridiculous - you could do the same with CFEXECUTE. Adding in extra string arguments just builds up the amount of code you want to display. And FYI: this one line of code can be executed in the .aspx page: % System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(netstat.exe) % There are numerous similar examples on your website. It's a dishonest misrepresentation. - Matt Small This is pretty sweet Jose. Thanks for taking the time to create this site! An excellent resource indeed. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Railo Community Distributions On 06/22/2010 06:47 AM, Jose Diaz wrote: ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334778 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
Hi Guys, Unfortunatly the company I work for decided to move away from CF :( and proceeded to get shot of all the cf devs we had. I was one of two survivors who they see as legacy application developers grr even thou I decided to become an MCPD, they still see us a just CF devs. Anyhoo I did build the following site: www.cfdot.net which shows code comparisons for most of the common langauge syntax tasks. If anything it will show how CF achieves in one line what .net does in 10 ;) (my little dig back heh) Jose On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! Adobe didn't write that, Gartner did. And overall, it's a pretty positive whitepaper. Particularly since Gartner has, in the past, been rather negative about ColdFusion... Nice to see that Gartner view the presence of established open-source alternatives to Adobe's ColdFusion as helping protect investment in CF technology. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334722 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:47 AM, Jose Diaz bleached...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunatly the company I work for decided to move away from CF :( and proceeded to get shot of all the cf devs we had. Sorry to hear that - glad you survived tho'... Anyhoo I did build the following site: www.cfdot.net which shows code comparisons for most of the common langauge syntax tasks. :) One thing to consider: many of the (CF) code examples could use cfscript now and the comparison would then look 'better' in terms of presenting CF as a 'regular' language... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334748 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
This is pretty sweet Jose. Thanks for taking the time to create this site! An excellent resource indeed. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Railo Community Distributions On 06/22/2010 06:47 AM, Jose Diaz wrote: Hi Guys, Unfortunatly the company I work for decided to move away from CF :( and proceeded to get shot of all the cf devs we had. I was one of two survivors who they see as legacy application developers grr even thou I decided to become an MCPD, they still see us a just CF devs. Anyhoo I did build the following site: www.cfdot.net which shows code comparisons for most of the common langauge syntax tasks. If anything it will show how CF achieves in one line what .net does in 10 ;) (my little dig back heh) Jose On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Sean Corfieldseancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Dave Wattsdwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! Adobe didn't write that, Gartner did. And overall, it's a pretty positive whitepaper. Particularly since Gartner has, in the past, been rather negative about ColdFusion... Nice to see that Gartner view the presence of established open-source alternatives to Adobe's ColdFusion as helping protect investment in CF technology. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334755 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
Note that you spelled ColdFusion as Coldfusion on the home page. development knowledge from Coldfusion to C#.net and .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Jordan Michaels [mailto:jor...@viviotech.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 5:48 PM To: cf-talk Subject: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net) This is pretty sweet Jose. Thanks for taking the time to create this site! An excellent resource indeed. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Railo Community Distributions On 06/22/2010 06:47 AM, Jose Diaz wrote: Hi Guys, Unfortunatly the company I work for decided to move away from CF :( and proceeded to get shot of all the cf devs we had. I was one of two survivors who they see as legacy application developers grr even thou I decided to become an MCPD, they still see us a just CF devs. Anyhoo I did build the following site: www.cfdot.net which shows code comparisons for most of the common langauge syntax tasks. If anything it will show how CF achieves in one line what .net does in 10 ;) (my little dig back heh) Jose On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Sean Corfieldseancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Dave Wattsdwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! Adobe didn't write that, Gartner did. And overall, it's a pretty positive whitepaper. Particularly since Gartner has, in the past, been rather negative about ColdFusion... Nice to see that Gartner view the presence of established open-source alternatives to Adobe's ColdFusion as helping protect investment in CF technology. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334756 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
While you are in there, you might want to spell check the rest of the home page :-) Im not trying to nitpick, I only noticed them (except for Coldfusion... that usually stands out to me) because I sent the link to my colleagues along with the text from the home page as a description for the link. Outlook barked at me when I hit send. Cheers .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:bo...@acoderslife.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 6:10 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net) Note that you spelled ColdFusion as Coldfusion on the home page. development knowledge from Coldfusion to C#.net and .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Jordan Michaels [mailto:jor...@viviotech.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 5:48 PM To: cf-talk Subject: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net) This is pretty sweet Jose. Thanks for taking the time to create this site! An excellent resource indeed. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Railo Community Distributions On 06/22/2010 06:47 AM, Jose Diaz wrote: Hi Guys, Unfortunatly the company I work for decided to move away from CF :( and proceeded to get shot of all the cf devs we had. I was one of two survivors who they see as legacy application developers grr even thou I decided to become an MCPD, they still see us a just CF devs. Anyhoo I did build the following site: www.cfdot.net which shows code comparisons for most of the common langauge syntax tasks. If anything it will show how CF achieves in one line what .net does in 10 ;) (my little dig back heh) Jose On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Sean Corfieldseancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Dave Wattsdwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! Adobe didn't write that, Gartner did. And overall, it's a pretty positive whitepaper. Particularly since Gartner has, in the past, been rather negative about ColdFusion... Nice to see that Gartner view the presence of established open-source alternatives to Adobe's ColdFusion as helping protect investment in CF technology. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334757 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: cfdot.net (was: CF vs. ASP.Net)
Im not trying to nitpick, I only noticed them (except for Coldfusion... that usually stands out to me) because I sent the link to my colleagues along with the text from the home page as a description for the link. Two things that bug me - 1. It's C# which is one code-behind language for .NET. I have yet to have someone give me a quantifiable performance-based reason why it better than other languages in the family. 2. The .NET version does not include the ASP.NET part of the equation. For example: http://www.cfdot.net/cfdot/Pages/CodeDetail.aspx?id=7 (CFOutput) the .NET code is simply setting the .Text property of a text box. Where's the creation of the object? It's a great concept but as implemented it only confuses the whole CF vs .NET conversation. Hatton ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334759 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
CF vs. ASP.Net
Again, I must make the argument why CF and not ASP.NET. I have looked around and found some useful information on CF vs. ASP.net (pro CF of course), but if anyone knows of any really good current links, please share :-) Thanks, Robert Robert B. Harrison Director of Interactive Services Austin Williams 125 Kennedy Drive, Suite 100 Hauppauge NY 11788 P : 631.231.6600 Ext. 119 F : 631.434.7022 http://www.austin-williams.com Great advertising can't be either/or. It must be . Plug in to our blog: AW Unplugged http://www.austin-williams.com/unplugged __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5215 (20100621) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334685 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/pdfs/Adobe3112.pdf ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334686 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Won Lee won...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/pdfs/Adobe3112.pdf Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334687 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
Again, I must make the argument why CF and not ASP.NET. Brand New - In Defense of CF: http://www.terrenceryan.com/blog/post.cfm/dear-coldfusion-skeptic --- Mary Jo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334688 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Casey Dougall ca...@uberwebsitesolutions.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Won Lee won...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/pdfs/Adobe3112.pdf Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! Report was written by Gartner which is not affiliated with Adobe AFAIK. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334689 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! Adobe didn't write that, Gartner did. And overall, it's a pretty positive whitepaper. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334690 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF vs. ASP.Net
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Well, there ya go, we got another 4 years to learn new languages... Adobe, way to set a bleak future for your own product! Adobe didn't write that, Gartner did. And overall, it's a pretty positive whitepaper. Particularly since Gartner has, in the past, been rather negative about ColdFusion... Nice to see that Gartner view the presence of established open-source alternatives to Adobe's ColdFusion as helping protect investment in CF technology. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334713 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
He could port to BD with little or no changes to code. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott To: CF-Talk Sent: Mon Jun 11 06:09:25 2007 Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Yes but his consideration of going BD is that he already has written CFML code and that he has been told .Net is better in under Loads. Please try to keep up with conversation. On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well you have a point, but given that he's considering going BD as well, this at least gives him some breathing room and a pretty decent example albeit back in the day... !k ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280613 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
I have worked for several large high traffic companies(American Medical Association, Smith Bucklin and Associates, Shedd Aquarium, ATT, etc..) that use CF for their sites and haven't seen a problem. Even back in the 3.4.5 days, the company I worked for got millions of hits a day (American Medical Association). This was on a NT4 server (donât remember how much memory). Eric -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Well originally they ran CF5. Truthfully though, I wonder how well CF is suited for high traffic sites until it's supported on 64-bit JDK. 2gigs of RAM is not much these days, especially if you're replicating sessions over a lot of cluster members. Russ -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 12:40 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Actually that runs on .NET via BD, so it's not the best example in this argument... On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. No doubt. Two words as one... MySpace. If that isn't the most defining example of a high load application, I don't know what is. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280625 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
I think the only places where you have probs in switching to BD is anything that uses flash as that is not supported in BD servers. Otherwise, the tags work the same. Eric -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 1:17 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting He could port to BD with little or no changes to code. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott To: CF-Talk Sent: Mon Jun 11 06:09:25 2007 Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Yes but his consideration of going BD is that he already has written CFML code and that he has been told .Net is better in under Loads. Please try to keep up with conversation. On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well you have a point, but given that he's considering going BD as well, this at least gives him some breathing room and a pretty decent example albeit back in the day... !k ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280627 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
1/ Will CF8 have equal or better integration with .NET compared to Bluedragon.Net? No. CF8 is still written in Java, and its .NET integration is done using a Java-to-.NET bridge licensed from a third party. BlueDragon.NET on the other hand is a 100% pure .NET implementation. Compared to BD.NET, the CF8 Java-to-.NET bridge will not perform as well, will have some limitations on the types of .NET objects you can create, and does not integrate with ASP.NET. Vince Bonfanti New Atlanta Communications, LLC ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280630 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
1/ Will CF8 have equal or better integration with .NET compared to Bluedragon.Net? No. It will let you invoke .NET assemblies, but CF 8 is not a .NET interpreter or compiler as BD.NET is. ... my concern for using CFMX was sparked by another thread on this forum where Tim Uzzanti who is an experienced employee of a large webhost who wrote.. a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. Observations about 10,000 little applications in a shared hosting environment don't translate into useful information about one large-scale application on a dedicated host. His statements about threading, simultaneous requests, and the comparative features of CF and .NET are just plain wrong. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280592 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
On 6/9/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2/ My main reason for consider Bluedragon.NET over CFMX is not due to Flash Remoting but rather to my main concern of .NET touted as being far superior in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests than CFMX... Last week I attended the Microsoft TechEd 2007 conference, which is some of the best training you can get, if you ever get the opportunity to attend one of these events. I attended a few sessions on building scalable ASP.NET sites (since I program in both ASP.NET and CF), two led by Jeff Prosise, and one by Richard Campbell, both of whom are amazingly knowledgeable and are regarded as .NET gurus. A main point Jeff stressed is that many ASP.NET developers think ASP.NET is inherently scalable, but the exact opposite is true. Nearly every ASP.NET Web site is not scalable, unless it is specifically programmed to be scalable, or unless the infrastructure surrounding the Web site is set up to be scalable (specialized hardware, distributed load, etc.). The reason most ASP.NET sites are not scalable is the same reason most CF sites are not scalable. It comes down to a limited thread pool and having threads tied up waiting for I/O operations to complete. Jeff reviewed in detail the various ways to make an ASP.NET site scalable using asynchronous handlers, and the code isn't pretty. If you can open up the source code for that .NET Flash Remoting project, do a search for Async. If you find it, it indicates that the programmers had scalability in mind when they wrote the code. In a separate session, Richard Campbell agreed that writing an ASP.NET site that uses asynchronous handlers is difficult. Richard said that the modifications make the code hard to read and hard to debug. He prefers other techniques of optimizing the infrastructure and distributing the load. I made a high-traffic CFMX Web site scalable using asynchronous threading techniques to manage caching, and it was non-trivial work. However, I did not have the luxury of using the cfthread tag, since it didn't exist at the time. The cfthread tag looks fantastic, and easy to implement. The issue of performance is related to scalability. Both the Microsoft folks and the Blue Dragon folks claim that .NET code on Windows machines executes much faster than Java code. I believe the numbers I remember from MS are 1x for C# translates to 1.5x for Java. It makes sense that MS code would run faster on a MS server using an MS database, so I do believe ASP.NET code would be theoretically faster than Java on a Windows server. I have never seen any objective benchmarks that validate these claims. I do not believe there is a single realistic study comparing the performance of an optimized CFMX site with an optimized ASP.NET site, since I don't know any organization that would invest the time and money needed to accurately replicate and optimize a high-traffic site in two different languages. And no, the My Space redesign is not an example, even though MS likes to claim it is. I am not suggesting that you should avoid ASP.NET, but I think it helps to clear up the common misconception that ASP.NET is inherently more scalable than CFMX. ASP.NET could be faster than CFMX, but performance is a different issue than scalability, and it can be addressed by adding a faster CPU, faster hard drives, faster RAM, a faster network connection, etc., if the speed of the CFMX code execution is the performance-limiting factor. As others have said, the greater factors with scalability are infrastructure and whether your site is coded to be scalable. Enjoy, Mike Chabot ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280598 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Below is the introduction to an article written by Jeff Prosise from Wintellect: Enjoy, Mike Chabot Scalable Apps with Asynchronous Programming in ASP.NET http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/07/03/WickedCode/ [quote] Most Web sites built with ASP.NET aren't very scalable. They suffer a self-imposed glass ceiling that limits the number of requests they can process per second. These sites scale just fine until traffic rises to the level of this invisible ceiling. Then throughput begins to degrade. Soon after, requests start to fail, usually returning Server unavailable errors. The underlying reason has been discussed many times in MSDN(r)Magazine. ASP.NET uses threads from a common language runtime (CLR) thread pool to process requests. As long as there are threads available in the thread pool, ASP.NET has no trouble dispatching incoming requests. But once the thread pool becomes saturated-that is, all the threads inside it are busy processing requests and no free threads remain-new requests have to wait for threads to become free. If the logjam becomes severe enough and the queue fills to capacity, ASP.NET throws up its hands and responds with a Heck no! to new requests. [/quote] ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280599 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
... a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. No doubt. Two words as one... MySpace. If that isn't the most defining example of a high load application, I don't know what is. !k -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 2:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting 1/ Will CF8 have equal or better integration with .NET compared to Bluedragon.Net? No. It will let you invoke .NET assemblies, but CF 8 is not a .NET interpreter or compiler as BD.NET is. ... my concern for using CFMX was sparked by another thread on this forum where Tim Uzzanti who is an experienced employee of a large webhost who wrote.. . a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. Observations about 10,000 little applications in a shared hosting environment don't translate into useful information about one large-scale application on a dedicated host. His statements about threading, simultaneous requests, and the comparative features of CF and .NET are just plain wrong. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280600 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Actually that runs on .NET via BD, so it's not the best example in this argument... On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. No doubt. Two words as one... MySpace. If that isn't the most defining example of a high load application, I don't know what is. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280602 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Well originally they ran CF5. Truthfully though, I wonder how well CF is suited for high traffic sites until it's supported on 64-bit JDK. 2gigs of RAM is not much these days, especially if you're replicating sessions over a lot of cluster members. Russ -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 12:40 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Actually that runs on .NET via BD, so it's not the best example in this argument... On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. No doubt. Two words as one... MySpace. If that isn't the most defining example of a high load application, I don't know what is. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| ColdFusion 8 beta â Build next generation applications today. Free beta download on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280605 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
No that is technically Bluedragon and cfml and asp mixed. Doesn't count. On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. No doubt. Two words as one... MySpace. If that isn't the most defining example of a high load application, I don't know what is. !k -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 2:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting 1/ Will CF8 have equal or better integration with .NET compared to Bluedragon.Net? No. It will let you invoke .NET assemblies, but CF 8 is not a .NET interpreter or compiler as BD.NET is. ... my concern for using CFMX was sparked by another thread on this forum where Tim Uzzanti who is an experienced employee of a large webhost who wrote.. . a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. Observations about 10,000 little applications in a shared hosting environment don't translate into useful information about one large-scale application on a dedicated host. His statements about threading, simultaneous requests, and the comparative features of CF and .NET are just plain wrong. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| CF 8 â Scorpio beta now available, easily build great internet experiences â Try it now on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280607 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Well you have a point, but given that he's considering going BD as well, this at least gives him some breathing room and a pretty decent example albeit back in the day... !k -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 10:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Actually that runs on .NET via BD, so it's not the best example in this argument... On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... a bunch of crap. There are plenty of high-volume sites using CF. No doubt. Two words as one... MySpace. If that isn't the most defining example of a high load application, I don't know what is. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280608 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Yes but his consideration of going BD is that he already has written CFML code and that he has been told .Net is better in under Loads. Please try to keep up with conversation. On 6/11/07, Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well you have a point, but given that he's considering going BD as well, this at least gives him some breathing room and a pretty decent example albeit back in the day... !k ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280609 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Thanks for all the responses. What I am thinking after some research, is to use Bluedragon.Net as the app server as it has got very good write-ups and has the ability to integrate seamlessly into the .NET framework + will enable me to preserve all the CFML work that I have done and I will also be able to use Flash Remoting via the Weborb program which integrates with Bluedragon. Any opinions/experience wither Bluedragon.NET or Weborb would be appreciated. Cheers ~| CF 8 â Scorpio beta now available, easily build great internet experiences â Try it now on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280537 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Thanks for all the responses. What I am thinking after some research, is to use Bluedragon.Net as the app server as it has got very good write-ups and has the ability to integrate seamlessly into the .NET framework + will enable me to preserve all the CFML work that I have done and I will also be able to use Flash Remoting via the Weborb program which integrates with Bluedragon. Any opinions/experience wither Bluedragon.NET or Weborb would be appreciated. ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280538 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
But only on Windows Servers, and Coldfusion V8 will also have .Net support. On 6/9/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the responses. What I am thinking after some research, is to use Bluedragon.Net as the app server as it has got very good write-ups and has the ability to integrate seamlessly into the .NET framework + will enable me to preserve all the CFML work that I have done and I will also be able to use Flash Remoting via the Weborb program which integrates with Bluedragon. Any opinions/experience wither Bluedragon.NET or Weborb would be appreciated. Cheers ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280539 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Yep, CF8 will but it will not be the same native support which BD.NET supports. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Jun 09 08:44:18 2007 Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting But only on Windows Servers, and Coldfusion V8 will also have .Net support. On 6/9/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the responses. What I am thinking after some research, is to use Bluedragon.Net as the app server as it has got very good write-ups and has the ability to integrate seamlessly into the .NET framework + will enable me to preserve all the CFML work that I have done and I will also be able to use Flash Remoting via the Weborb program which integrates with Bluedragon. Any opinions/experience wither Bluedragon.NET or Weborb would be appreciated. Cheers ~| ColdFusion 8 beta â Build next generation applications today. Free beta download on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280540 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
True, The question I will ask before making any decision, is what infastructure do you need, seeing as you have already written CFML would .Net intergation be any benefit and for what reason would you need it. Could java be more of an option, would you be using Windows servers of unix servers. Anyway all these questions need to calculated and planned before any programming is done. As I said, what would happen if you decide to move to a unix server for cheaper infastructure .Net support would be out of the question then. On 6/9/07, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, CF8 will but it will not be the same native support which BD.NET supports. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Jun 09 08:44:18 2007 Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting But only on Windows Servers, and Coldfusion V8 will also have .Net support. On 6/9/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the responses. What I am thinking after some research, is to use Bluedragon.Net as the app server as it has got very good write-ups and has the ability to integrate seamlessly into the .NET framework + will enable me to preserve all the CFML work that I have done and I will also be able to use Flash Remoting via the Weborb program which integrates with Bluedragon. Any opinions/experience wither Bluedragon.NET or Weborb would be appreciated. Cheers ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280541 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Indeed, I don't think the decision should ever be seen as ColdFusion vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting as both do the same jobs AFAIK. Moving to BD is only really attractive if to you want/need to consolodate on Windows (cost aside) ad infitum and were planning to use native .NET calls rather than interop over some othe means. BD has far better .NET support than CF and will no doubt get better with the prospect of using the DLR. It does have other obvious benefits with using Windows over using Java/CF on Windows but ColdFusion is a different beast from MX/6.x and it very efficient now as they begin to settle into the groove with releases. Saying that, it is just as possible to hook into Java from .NET as it is to hook into .NET from Java so you are never really severing your options with either. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Jun 09 10:25:44 2007 Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting True, The question I will ask before making any decision, is what infastructure do you need, seeing as you have already written CFML would .Net intergation be any benefit and for what reason would you need it. Could java be more of an option, would you be using Windows servers of unix servers. Anyway all these questions need to calculated and planned before any programming is done. As I said, what would happen if you decide to move to a unix server for cheaper infastructure .Net support would be out of the question then. On 6/9/07, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, CF8 will but it will not be the same native support which BD.NET supports. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Jun 09 08:44:18 2007 Subject: Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting But only on Windows Servers, and Coldfusion V8 will also have .Net support. On 6/9/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the responses. What I am thinking after some research, is to use Bluedragon.Net as the app server as it has got very good write-ups and has the ability to integrate seamlessly into the .NET framework + will enable me to preserve all the CFML work that I have done and I will also be able to use Flash Remoting via the Weborb program which integrates with Bluedragon. Any opinions/experience wither Bluedragon.NET or Weborb would be appreciated. Cheers ~| ColdFusion 8 beta â Build next generation applications today. Free beta download on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280542 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Thanks... 1/ Will CF8 have equal or better integration with .NET compared to Bluedragon.Net? 2/ My main reason for consider Bluedragon.NET over CFMX is not due to Flash Remoting but rather to my main concern of .NET touted as being far superior in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests than CFMX... the reason being that if my Flash Remoting app becomes very popular with several thousand people using at the same time it sounds like BD.NET with its integration with .NET framework will be far more robust and able to handle the loads. Ignoring costs for the time being, I personally don't care which application server I use, I just wan't to know that my app is using the most robust tools and that it won't slow down or crash under very heavy load. I do not want to start a CF vs ASP.NET war, but my concern for using CFMX was sparked by another thread on this forum where Tim Uzzanti who is an experienced employee of a large webhost who wrote.. --- Tim Uzzanti: (http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:37076#187251) If you believe CF can handle the same traffic loads that .NET can handle, then you are completely confused on the technologies and their infrastructure. I have no idea if 75% of fortune 100% companies use CF, I would love to see some documentation for that, but the Fortune 100 companies ARE NOT the Top 100 sites on the Internet either! Asking someone who maintains and manages 10,000 hosted applications on Cold Fusion and someone who manages thousands of .NET applications would probably give you a pretty good opinion of what they see? Is it in my BEST interest to tell a customer not to use CF, or is it in my best interest to suggest what might be the best technologies from my experiences on their requirements? Someone mentioned ediet.com which has a traffic ranking of around 280,000 and in comparison CrystalTech is around 23,000. Microsoft.com which is in the top 10 is using ASP.NET and Dell.COM which is in the top 100 is also using ASP.NET Regarding the back end of Cold Fusion: CFMX is much better than CF5 but still has many limitations and quirks that we have see and deal with every day. I am not saying that CF doesnât have the ability to grow with larger sites because it has features like the ability to cluster machines and the classes are compiled etc. What I am saying is, if you would like to build an application that can last longer on certain hardware or run more optimally, CF is not the way to go! Cold Fusion MX out of the box has a setting to support no more than 10 simultaneous requests at one time. Macromedia suggestions that you never exceed 40 and this isnât optimal for a large scale sites. There are other settings and issues from a server administration standpoint that hinder CFMX from out performing .NET There are other factors that one needs to think about when writing an application. Think about the ability to use Threads in .NET. Depending on your application, sitting and processing 10 requests back to back may take 5 minutes but if you had the ability to run the 10 tasks concurrently you may be able to respond back to the customer in 30 seconds. You have to realize, .NET isnât just a web based language, it is a Development language for desktop and server applications as well. --- Therefore if CF8 has the same or better integration with .NET as BD.NET then maybe worthwhile to wait till CF8 is released? any opinions... ~| CF 8 â Scorpio beta now available, easily build great internet experiences â Try it now on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280555 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
What a load of rubbish... Loads are based on how you design your application, make sure you run plenty of load tests and the killer is make sure you have the infastructure first. If your infastructure is wrong or not enough, then the application will fail under load it is as simple as that. As for .Net being supperior, yeah right there is no one language that is superior in load balancing. But if you are going down this route then its CF Enterprise, CF Standard can be used but it will be limited and maybe thats where the article is comming from. CF8, will have intergartion as far as being able to leverage of objects. So you can write packages in .Net and you can use them in CF8. Where BD excels some more is that you can intergrate asp and cf in the same page. But that might change, CF8 thanks to Sean Corfield can also leverage of PHP and Ruby in the same coldfusion page. Now the thing that is also forgotten, is that java is an enterprise solution and is in my opinion more of an enterprise solution that .Net is. And Coldfusion has the ability via the Application server to run both, with the release of CF8 will give us the ability to full jBoss support. I think you are asking the right questions, and at least willing to listen to responses. So having said that, I doubt you are going to have any problems with CF Enterprise, with the right infastructure and have done your load tests. Also read up on CF8, some of the best features are threads with cfthread. Ever since CF was rewritten in Java it has been more thread based, but it did lack the ability to instantiate a thread until cf8. Although gateway integration was a good way of getting around this. So my reccomendtion regardless software. 1) make sure it is an enterprise solution 2) What tools do you see yourself using, do you see more .Net or Java as integrate solutions. 3) Do you have the bandwidht to support these users. 4) Do you have the hardware to support these users 5) Load test, load test, load test 6) refactor any code that fails a load test. 7) deploy 8) Increase hardware infastructure when loads get higher. On 6/10/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks... 1/ Will CF8 have equal or better integration with .NET compared to Bluedragon.Net? 2/ My main reason for consider Bluedragon.NET over CFMX is not due to Flash Remoting but rather to my main concern of .NET touted as being far superior in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests than CFMX... the reason being that if my Flash Remoting app becomes very popular with several thousand people using at the same time it sounds like BD.NETwith its integration with .NET framework will be far more robust and able to handle the loads. Ignoring costs for the time being, I personally don't care which application server I use, I just wan't to know that my app is using the most robust tools and that it won't slow down or crash under very heavy load. I do not want to start a CF vs ASP.NET war, but my concern for using CFMX was sparked by another thread on this forum where Tim Uzzanti who is an experienced employee of a large webhost who wrote.. --- Tim Uzzanti: ( http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:37076#187251 ) If you believe CF can handle the same traffic loads that .NET can handle, then you are completely confused on the technologies and their infrastructure. I have no idea if 75% of fortune 100% companies use CF, I would love to see some documentation for that, but the Fortune 100 companies ARE NOT the Top 100 sites on the Internet either! Asking someone who maintains and manages 10,000 hosted applications on Cold Fusion and someone who manages thousands of .NET applications would probably give you a pretty good opinion of what they see? Is it in my BEST interest to tell a customer not to use CF, or is it in my best interest to suggest what might be the best technologies from my experiences on their requirements? Someone mentioned ediet.com which has a traffic ranking of around 280,000 and in comparison CrystalTech is around 23,000. Microsoft.com which is in the top 10 is using ASP.NET and Dell.COM which is in the top 100 is also using ASP.NET Regarding the back end of Cold Fusion: CFMX is much better than CF5 but still has many limitations and quirks that we have see and deal with every day. I am not saying that CF doesn't have the ability to grow with larger sites because it has features like the ability to cluster machines and the classes are compiled etc. What I am saying is, if you would like to build an application that can last longer on certain hardware or run more optimally, CF is not the way to go! Cold Fusion MX out of the box has a setting to support no more than 10 simultaneous requests at one time. Macromedia suggestions that you never exceed 40 and this isn't optimal for a large scale sites. There are other settings and issues from a server administration
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
On 6/10/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cold Fusion MX out of the box has a setting to support no more than 10 simultaneous requests at one time. Macromedia suggestions that you never exceed 40 and this isn't optimal for a large scale sites. There are other settings and issues from a server administration standpoint that hinder CFMX from out performing .NET I don't know where the idea that .NET is magically able to process thousands of times more work than Java came from, but MS themselves recommend around 12 simultaneous requests for .NET: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnpag/html/scalenetchapt17.asp Twelve is the optimum number of threads that should be made available to the ASP.NET worker process to service requests. This value means that ASP.NET cannot execute more than twelve requests concurrently. http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;821268 When you use this configuration, you can execute a maximum of 12 ASP.NET requests per CPU at the same time There are other factors that one needs to think about when writing an application. Think about the ability to use Threads in .NET. Depending on your application, sitting and processing 10 requests back to back may take 5 minutes but if you had the ability to run the 10 tasks concurrently you may be able to respond back to the customer in 30 seconds. And of course CF 8 has CFTHREAD so there goes that argument. You have to realize, .NET isn't just a web based language, it is a Development language for desktop and server applications as well. You have to realize that ASP. NET is a web apps platform running on ..NET, just as CF is a web apps platform running on Java (which is a programming language). Enough trolling ok? Download the CF8 Beta, write some code, load test it and see how it really performs compared to the equivalent app in ASP.NET. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Deploy Web Applications Quickly across the enterprise with ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2 Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280559 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Thanks...your responses are appreciated as I inexperienced when it comes to advanced technical concepts and deployment and want to ensure I make the roght choice before throwing down several thousands of dollars on licenses etc. Can you suggest any good load testing software for CF besides from Borland's Silkperformer and OpenLoad? ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280563 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
OpenSTA is free, altough it hasn't been updated in a while. On 6/10/07, m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks...your responses are appreciated as I inexperienced when it comes to advanced technical concepts and deployment and want to ensure I make the roght choice before throwing down several thousands of dollars on licenses etc. Can you suggest any good load testing software for CF besides from Borland's Silkperformer and OpenLoad? -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| CF 8 â Scorpio beta now available, easily build great internet experiences â Try it now on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280564 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
You need to load test, whatever your application / technology. If you don't, whatever you use is gonna be finger in the air and hope. As for simultaneous requests, I would very much doubt that you will have that number of users executing a thread at the same time if end client is Flash. What server specs do you have? I would assume you are *not* running just a single web server and SQL DB here You still have a lot of work to do to find load and correct balance and the fact you are still even considering another technology for deployment tells me you are either way off going live or have no idea just how much work is required. Can ColdFusion handle high load? Yes, easily. Can it handle scale? Yes, but like any app, ASP.NET alike you need to plan an infrastructure around it. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: m g To: CF-Talk Sent: Thu Jun 07 06:16:49 2007 Subject: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Hi, BACKGROUND: I have developed a Flash Remoting application using Coldfusion and SQL 2000 and am almost ready to go live. The remoting application uses many queries/responses to/from the SQL 2000 database via Coldfusion. The Flash Remoting application is a game which I hope will become popular and be played by many thousands of users at the same time - meaning that SQL2000/Coldfusion will need to process thousands of simultaneous requests. QUESTIONS: 1/ My main concern is that if there are many thousands of users playing the game simultaneously will Coldfusion and SQL 2000 be able to handle the thousands of simultaneous requests going back and forth from the Remoting,Coldfusion,SQL 2000? 2/ Will I need several dedicated servers to handle thousands of simultaneous requests (as Macromedia advises that should not set to more than 40 simulateous requests)? 3/ Would it be preferable to use ASP.NET instead of Coldfusion: (i)To Interact between Flash Remoting and SQL2000 as there is much discussion that ASP.NET is far superior to Coldfusion in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests? (ii)Need to purchase multiple Coldfusion licenses in the event that multiple dedicated servers are needed and ASP.NET does not require purchase of separate licenses on servers? I realise that will depend on many variables, however any feedback on above issues will be much appreciated. Thanks ~| ColdFusion 8 beta â Build next generation applications today. Free beta download on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280328 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
BACKGROUND: I have developed a Flash Remoting application using Coldfusion and SQL 2000 and am almost ready to go live. The remoting application uses many queries/responses to/from the SQL 2000 database via Coldfusion. The Flash Remoting application is a game which I hope will become popular and be played by many thousands of users at the same time - meaning that SQL2000/Coldfusion will need to process thousands of simultaneous requests. QUESTIONS: 1/ My main concern is that if there are many thousands of users playing the game simultaneously will Coldfusion and SQL 2000 be able to handle the thousands of simultaneous requests going back and forth from the Remoting,Coldfusion,SQL 2000? That depends on many factors, obviously, but CF can certainly scale well enough to handle your requests. 2/ Will I need several dedicated servers to handle thousands of simultaneous requests (as Macromedia advises that should not set to more than 40 simulateous requests)? The number of simultaneous requests in the CF administrator is the number that it is set to handle at one time. Additional requests are queued, then processed when CF has responded to one of the current requests. Even if you have more requests than can be processed simultaneously, you will usually get better performance by letting them wait briefly in the queue, than by increasing the number of threads dedicated to simultaneous request processing. The more threads devoted to concurrent processing, the more inter-thread management stuff your application server has to do. 3/ Would it be preferable to use ASP.NET instead of Coldfusion: (i)To Interact between Flash Remoting and SQL2000 as there is much discussion that ASP.NET is far superior to Coldfusion in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests? (ii)Need to purchase multiple Coldfusion licenses in the event that multiple dedicated servers are needed and ASP.NET does not require purchase of separate licenses on servers? I haven't seen any evidence that ASP.NET is far superior to CF in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280422 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
On a side note, I would hope that you could take advantage of the features of flash to handle has much processing as possible. Offloading some of the smallest tasks from the backend to the client side can greatly reduce the overhead that's put on the server. Cheers, !k -Original Message- From: m g [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting Hi, BACKGROUND: I have developed a Flash Remoting application using Coldfusion and SQL 2000 and am almost ready to go live. The remoting application uses many queries/responses to/from the SQL 2000 database via Coldfusion. The Flash Remoting application is a game which I hope will become popular and be played by many thousands of users at the same time - meaning that SQL2000/Coldfusion will need to process thousands of simultaneous requests. QUESTIONS: 1/ My main concern is that if there are many thousands of users playing the game simultaneously will Coldfusion and SQL 2000 be able to handle the thousands of simultaneous requests going back and forth from the Remoting,Coldfusion,SQL 2000? 2/ Will I need several dedicated servers to handle thousands of simultaneous requests (as Macromedia advises that should not set to more than 40 simulateous requests)? 3/ Would it be preferable to use ASP.NET instead of Coldfusion: (i)To Interact between Flash Remoting and SQL2000 as there is much discussion that ASP.NET is far superior to Coldfusion in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests? (ii)Need to purchase multiple Coldfusion licenses in the event that multiple dedicated servers are needed and ASP.NET does not require purchase of separate licenses on servers? I realise that will depend on many variables, however any feedback on above issues will be much appreciated. Thanks ~| CF 8 â Scorpio beta now available, easily build great internet experiences â Try it now on Labs http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_adobecf8_beta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280425 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Simultaneous Requests/CF vs ASP.NET for Flash Remoting
Hi, BACKGROUND: I have developed a Flash Remoting application using Coldfusion and SQL 2000 and am almost ready to go live. The remoting application uses many queries/responses to/from the SQL 2000 database via Coldfusion. The Flash Remoting application is a game which I hope will become popular and be played by many thousands of users at the same time - meaning that SQL2000/Coldfusion will need to process thousands of simultaneous requests. QUESTIONS: 1/ My main concern is that if there are many thousands of users playing the game simultaneously will Coldfusion and SQL 2000 be able to handle the thousands of simultaneous requests going back and forth from the Remoting,Coldfusion,SQL 2000? 2/ Will I need several dedicated servers to handle thousands of simultaneous requests (as Macromedia advises that should not set to more than 40 simulateous requests)? 3/ Would it be preferable to use ASP.NET instead of Coldfusion: (i)To Interact between Flash Remoting and SQL2000 as there is much discussion that ASP.NET is far superior to Coldfusion in handling significant loads and simultaneous requests? (ii)Need to purchase multiple Coldfusion licenses in the event that multiple dedicated servers are needed and ASP.NET does not require purchase of separate licenses on servers? I realise that will depend on many variables, however any feedback on above issues will be much appreciated. Thanks ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:280326 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
-Original Message- From: Ken Ketsdever [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Michael, Kill this thread!! For what it's worth I thoroughly enjoy threads like this. It's Mike's decision if it's appropriate for this forum, but personally I think it is. I can see the other side, but I think it is. I stopped responding to the content of the thread when Mike asked... now I'm just responding to those taking such a personal stake in the fact that it exists. As for those that don't like them - why bother with them? Killfiles are so, so damn easy to use. Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187576 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Michael provides a great service to us all. I view it as disrespectful for people to continue with a thread that he has requested moved. If people cannot police themsleves then kill the thread. I think he is right, it doesn't belong here. However, thanks to technical problems with our outsourced spam filter / email servers, then message I sent yesterday didn't get delivered until this morning (thank you spam tank and single fin). -Original Message- From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! -Original Message- From: Ken Ketsdever [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Michael, Kill this thread!! For what it's worth I thoroughly enjoy threads like this. It's Mike's decision if it's appropriate for this forum, but personally I think it is. I can see the other side, but I think it is. I stopped responding to the content of the thread when Mike asked... now I'm just responding to those taking such a personal stake in the fact that it exists. As for those that don't like them - why bother with them? Killfiles are so, so damn easy to use. Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187580 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Cant we all learn to love each other for our differences? MD ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187585 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
From: Mark Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cant we all learn to love each other for our differences? What fun is that! :-) ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187586 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Michael, Kill this thread!! Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187569 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I agree whole heartedly!!! --- QUOTE --- Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but I vote to take this topic somewhere else. Macromedia Forums is usually the best place to have the I hate ColdFusion debates. --- END QUOTE --- These types of discussions are the reason I quit mailing list. Please, lets move this to someplace else. Jason L. West, Sr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 14:39 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but I vote to take this topic somewhere else. Macromedia Forums is usually the best place to have the I hate ColdFusion debates. I, personally, stopped using the forums mainly because of these religious wars. We all know CF rocks, but it's not the be-all-end-all of web app development. Also, I consider this list a great resource for learning and sharing CF, and web, techniques. There has been nothing beneficial from this thread. It has only served to waste my valuable time when I could be bashing .NET on another mailing list. Thanks M!ke ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187556 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Will...just remember...this is a technical forumso non-tech threads have a limited lifespan here As Mike D saidit can go to CF-Macromedia or CF-OT or heck...even the insane CF-Community Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187625 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
will, if u spent as much time going to your local cfug as u do whining u'd have a damn cfm job have u ever gone to a cfug? do u know what a cfug is? funny, last night at ours, the shops that were going .net cfm have now scaled back to just cfm, hu and plenty of jobs were passed around, lowest paid $45 an + hour full benefit package if u were there u coulda had your pick, well maybe like i said before, dont let the door hit ya were the good lord split ya -- Original Message -- From: Will Tomlinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:13:53 -0400 Silence the dissenters. Hitler practiced that concept well! ***There are only a handful of irrelevant posts in this thread out of 98 (as of now). Silencing unhappy CF'ers who are having to diversify due to the lack of CF jobs, and are willing to subject themselves to ridicule by their peers, is NOT a good thing. Some of you guys seemed to have intentionally posted irrelevant responses just to make the whole thread look that way. I appreciate Ben Forta's candidness and honest opinions on this topic. I'm sorry if I offended people by saying we've been lulled to sleep. Maybe I should've said we're being complacent instead. And Macromedia *might* be too complacent about this whole situation. SOME of Team MM seems to be at least. I think we all need to see the big picture, and shoot higher than we are. Maybe it's .NET sexiness right now, maybe it's not. But even if it is, will it hurt to try and push CF? And figure out EXACTLY why so many are moving to .NET right now? Will ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187628 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Best three CF Job locales? [WAS: Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!]
Where the heck do you live? I wish I had the balls to up and move from my homeland. I consider myself a PGP (pretty good programmer), and I am stuck here at an embarassing salary. My job, co-workers and job environment is awesome, I get to take my dog to work, I make my own hours, and have all the freedom in the world. But still, some bennies and a better salary would be nice. Let's start another topic: Where are the top 3 places to live if you want the best CF job? Maybe I'll consider a move (I am cross-posting this so that everybody gets it, but reply only to the cf-community, as this is gotten even further off-topic) Ray At 04:26 PM 12/14/2004, you wrote: will, if u spent as much time going to your local cfug as u do whining u'd have a damn cfm job have u ever gone to a cfug? do u know what a cfug is? funny, last night at ours, the shops that were going .net cfm have now scaled back to just cfm, hu and plenty of jobs were passed around, lowest paid $45 an + hour full benefit package if u were there u coulda had your pick, well maybe like i said before, dont let the door hit ya were the good lord split ya -- Original Message -- From: Will Tomlinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:13:53 -0400 Silence the dissenters. Hitler practiced that concept well! ***There are only a handful of irrelevant posts in this thread out of 98 (as of now). Silencing unhappy CF'ers who are having to diversify due to the lack of CF jobs, and are willing to subject themselves to ridicule by their peers, is NOT a good thing. Some of you guys seemed to have intentionally posted irrelevant responses just to make the whole thread look that way. I appreciate Ben Forta's candidness and honest opinions on this topic. I'm sorry if I offended people by saying we've been lulled to sleep. Maybe I should've said we're being complacent instead. And Macromedia *might* be too complacent about this whole situation. SOME of Team MM seems to be at least. I think we all need to see the big picture, and shoot higher than we are. Maybe it's .NET sexiness right now, maybe it's not. But even if it is, will it hurt to try and push CF? And figure out EXACTLY why so many are moving to .NET right now? Will ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187632 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I know this thread is supposed to be dead, but I wanted to follow up what Ben had mentioned about CF in Gov. Our branch was formed within the State Dept to consolidate all IT under one roof. We inheritied nasty asp applications that rely heavily in AD and msSQL. (ever try to change a domain on AD?) I don't really think I understood the defenition of 'stovepipe app' until I started here. They made a major shift away from outsourcing projects to contracting companies towards contracting positions internally. We standardized on J2EE and Oracle. The java guys out numbered us for about 6 months... until we knocked out a dozen enterprise CF apps, while thier entire team is still working on just two. Needless to say, all new applications are developed in CF and all of our older apps are ported to CF (asp, delphi, etc.) Any application deemed mission critical, or need to be integrated with other technologies are done in CF. I been constantly interviewing for CF positions for the past 8-9 months. Of course, we dont post our jobs on dice or monster. Contracting companines usually do thier own recruiting, plus the employee always gets shafted in salary and benefits. As a result the majority of the people we found through those sites didn't last past 2 months had bad attitudes (tech-arrogance). -Adam ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187634 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
OK, this is where I take offense. I've asked for this thread to be moved to another forum. I've provided many other forums that it can be moved to. At no time was dissenters silenced. As per the net rule, the first to invoke Hitler loses. That my friend is you. -Original Message- From: Will Tomlinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Silence the dissenters. Hitler practiced that concept well! ***There are only a handful of irrelevant posts in this thread out of 98 (as of now). Silencing unhappy CF'ers who are having to diversify due to the lack of CF jobs, and are willing to subject themselves to ridicule by their peers, is NOT a good thing. Some of you guys seemed to have intentionally posted irrelevant responses just to make the whole thread look that way. I appreciate Ben Forta's candidness and honest opinions on this topic. I'm sorry if I offended people by saying we've been lulled to sleep. Maybe I should've said we're being complacent instead. And Macromedia *might* be too complacent about this whole situation. SOME of Team MM seems to be at least. I think we all need to see the big picture, and shoot higher than we are. Maybe it's .NET sexiness right now, maybe it's not. But even if it is, will it hurt to try and push CF? And figure out EXACTLY why so many are moving to .NET right now? Will ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187638 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Oh yeah, and for the people in house who converted from classic and .NET to CF. Lol, they wouldnt go back, even for a bump in salary. -Adam On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:40:46 -0500, Adrocknaphobia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know this thread is supposed to be dead, but I wanted to follow up what Ben had mentioned about CF in Gov. Our branch was formed within the State Dept to consolidate all IT under one roof. We inheritied nasty asp applications that rely heavily in AD and msSQL. (ever try to change a domain on AD?) I don't really think I understood the defenition of 'stovepipe app' until I started here. They made a major shift away from outsourcing projects to contracting companies towards contracting positions internally. We standardized on J2EE and Oracle. The java guys out numbered us for about 6 months... until we knocked out a dozen enterprise CF apps, while thier entire team is still working on just two. Needless to say, all new applications are developed in CF and all of our older apps are ported to CF (asp, delphi, etc.) Any application deemed mission critical, or need to be integrated with other technologies are done in CF. I been constantly interviewing for CF positions for the past 8-9 months. Of course, we dont post our jobs on dice or monster. Contracting companines usually do thier own recruiting, plus the employee always gets shafted in salary and benefits. As a result the majority of the people we found through those sites didn't last past 2 months had bad attitudes (tech-arrogance). -Adam ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187635 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Silence the dissenters. Hitler practiced that concept well! ***There are only a handful of irrelevant posts in this thread out of 98 (as of now). Silencing unhappy CF'ers who are having to diversify due to the lack of CF jobs, and are willing to subject themselves to ridicule by their peers, is NOT a good thing. Some of you guys seemed to have intentionally posted irrelevant responses just to make the whole thread look that way. I appreciate Ben Forta's candidness and honest opinions on this topic. I'm sorry if I offended people by saying we've been lulled to sleep. Maybe I should've said we're being complacent instead. And Macromedia *might* be too complacent about this whole situation. SOME of Team MM seems to be at least. I think we all need to see the big picture, and shoot higher than we are. Maybe it's .NET sexiness right now, maybe it's not. But even if it is, will it hurt to try and push CF? And figure out EXACTLY why so many are moving to .NET right now? Will ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187622 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Silence the dissenters. Hitler practiced that concept well! Yes, well I can certainly see your point with that analogy. Presumably, after the putsch, those who disagree with Team Macromedia will be rounded up for extermination, whether they use .NET or simply want CF to be better. I'm sure this was covered at MAX. Silencing unhappy CF'ers who are having to diversify due to the lack of CF jobs, and are willing to subject themselves to ridicule by their peers, is NOT a good thing. Obviously, you haven't been silenced. However, you open yourself to ridicule by the quality of your arguments. It's one thing to say that you're unhappy because there are more .NET jobs than CF jobs. It's another thing to say that this is because of specific features or lack thereof. Statements like that need proof to be useful. I'm sorry if I offended people by saying we've been lulled to sleep. Maybe I should've said we're being complacent instead. And Macromedia *might* be too complacent about this whole situation. SOME of Team MM seems to be at least. I think we all need to see the big picture, and shoot higher than we are. Maybe it's .NET sexiness right now, maybe it's not. But even if it is, will it hurt to try and push CF? And figure out EXACTLY why so many are moving to .NET right now? Personally, I wasn't offended until you Godwinized the thread with your absurd Nazi reference. But if you want to change people's minds about a subject, you need to present rational arguments beyond seeing the big picture and shooting higher. So far, your arguments can be condensed to I'm having trouble finding work and Tim so-and-so said .NET is serious programming and CF isn't. Honestly, what kind of response did you expect? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ phone: 202-797-5496 fax: 202-797-5444 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187627 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I wonder how many of those jobs have listings like this? Experienced web developer / software application programmer utilizing various technologies and skills, including: ColdFusion , HTML, Active Server Pages, IIS, ASP.NET, JavaScript, XML, MS SQL Server, XSLT, VBScript, SQL Programming, C#, Visual Basic, VB.NET. Listing every technology around including both ColdFusion and .Net -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187566 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
There are parts of this thread which are not really useful and it's gotten past the useful point. I've asked before for it to be moved over to the CF-OT or Macromedia-Talk lists. I'd rather not do it myself if I don't have to as it's better for the community to police itself. On the other hand, I've been wanting to redo the list code for auto-thread moving and such. I just need a good reason. :) Michael, Kill this thread!! For what it's worth I thoroughly enjoy threads like this. It's Mike's decision if it's appropriate for this forum, but personally I think it is. I can see the other side, but I think it is. I stopped responding to the content of the thread when Mike asked... now I'm just responding to those taking such a personal stake in the fact that it exists. As for those that don't like them - why bother with them? Killfiles are so, so damn easy to use. Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187579 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
group hug ... coffee for everyone .. now GET BACK TO YOUR CODE ;) From: Mark Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 12/14/2004 6:50 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Cant we all learn to love each other for our differences? MD ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187587 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I see ColdFusion is powerfull since we are using and seeing the power. Maybe it needs an IDE that improves code/architecture quality and productivity. However it is really expensive for small and medium projects. Our company need to use other technologies for small/medium projects, so we have experience of other technologies. And we can continue to use the others for large projects... I mean there are strategical mistakes with CF prices currently which will probably cause to die of CF in the future. Macromedia should review the market and prices again and again... Murat. -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Regarding the relative costs of the expensive ColdFusion and the free other technologies, I have a statement from a colleague in another organisation, which I'll be posting separately. I told him about a site I'd just about finished in ColdFusion and he told me he was amazed. That I'd done my site in about 70 hours with another 40hours or so to finish it , and he had done a similar site in Free PHP - it had taken two of them (part time) two years to build. Let's assume for the sake of argument that all people working on these sites are costing $50/hour either as paid contractors or as employees including on-costs.I built my site, using expensive ColdFusion for $3500 plus a cold fusion server at perhaps $1200 - total $4700. They built their site using free PHP for (say) two people at 600 hours each - that's $60,000!! But they got the server software for free. Saved a big bunch there by going with the 'free' one didn't they. .Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187337 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I think I am going to switch to COBOL or PASCAL.. not sure this CF shaahoey will ever take off. ASP.NET? isnt that a website about snakes that are hidden in pretty baskets? Ho hum. Flame wars are so invigorating dont you think? CFMX smells of eldeberries. -- Mark Drew coldfusion and cfeclipse blogged: http://cybersonic.blogspot.com/ ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187339 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Cmon, step of that pre defined CF idea. It makes a discussion very difficult, when people are rusty in their current web application platform, and do not try to be open minded about other possible ways. The flamewar part is long gone (if there was a flamewar, it was merely a sharp discussion). Say to a PHP engineer CF takes away PHP market or just totally without argument PHP sucks and you'll get the same effect, people with high blood pressures, smashing their keyboards, getting all sweaty, just eager proving their right and trying to win the battle with attacking people with accusations instead of arguments ;) It happens on all tech boards. It isn't necessary :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187341 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I guess they did something terribly wrong there, PHP is a very simple language, you could even compare the learning curve to CF. I build my apps as fast with CF as PHP or ASP (C# other story), so I must guess there have been other issues except the application server used. Micha Schopman Software Engineer Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187336 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
For most small to medium projects I'm not sure why you would ever want to buy CF anyway - hosting seems the way to. Since the development servers are free you can create and publish a CF application for very little money just as you would anything else. In my experience the cost of CF server (at $1200) is insignificant in the scheme of any project where they'll be buying and managing their own servers. Jim Davis -Original Message- From: Murat Demirci [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! I see ColdFusion is powerfull since we are using and seeing the power. Maybe it needs an IDE that improves code/architecture quality and productivity. However it is really expensive for small and medium projects. Our company need to use other technologies for small/medium projects, so we have experience of other technologies. And we can continue to use the others for large projects... I mean there are strategical mistakes with CF prices currently which will probably cause to die of CF in the future. Macromedia should review the market and prices again and again... Murat. -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Regarding the relative costs of the expensive ColdFusion and the free other technologies, I have a statement from a colleague in another organisation, which I'll be posting separately. I told him about a site I'd just about finished in ColdFusion and he told me he was amazed. That I'd done my site in about 70 hours with another 40hours or so to finish it , and he had done a similar site in Free PHP - it had taken two of them (part time) two years to build. Let's assume for the sake of argument that all people working on these sites are costing $50/hour either as paid contractors or as employees including on-costs.I built my site, using expensive ColdFusion for $3500 plus a cold fusion server at perhaps $1200 - total $4700. They built their site using free PHP for (say) two people at 600 hours each - that's $60,000!! But they got the server software for free. Saved a big bunch there by going with the 'free' one didn't they. .Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187343 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
There are no professional CF hosting in Turkey :( So we always need to buy CF to host our projects which should be hosted at different geographical locations. We're using similar approach for most projects, because we generally solve all of the problems of the projects (providing hosting, maintenance, security, content contribution solutions for years). Sometimes our customers wants to host the site their own servers which requires a separate ColdFusion license. These conditions force us to shift other technologies, so maybe I cannot see the future of CF properly due to these conditions. Its popularity is different in Turkey. Finally, we have some plans for next year to setup a small CF hosting company in Turkey :) (Any suggestions to setup a CF hosting company are welcome) This will help us to continue with CF. Murat. -Original Message- From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:53 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! For most small to medium projects I'm not sure why you would ever want to buy CF anyway - hosting seems the way to. Since the development servers are free you can create and publish a CF application for very little money just as you would anything else. In my experience the cost of CF server (at $1200) is insignificant in the scheme of any project where they'll be buying and managing their own servers. Jim Davis -Original Message- From: Murat Demirci [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! I see ColdFusion is powerfull since we are using and seeing the power. Maybe it needs an IDE that improves code/architecture quality and productivity. However it is really expensive for small and medium projects. Our company need to use other technologies for small/medium projects, so we have experience of other technologies. And we can continue to use the others for large projects... I mean there are strategical mistakes with CF prices currently which will probably cause to die of CF in the future. Macromedia should review the market and prices again and again... Murat. -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCON!! Regarding the relative costs of the expensive ColdFusion and the free other technologies, I have a statement from a colleague in another organisation, which I'll be posting separately. I told him about a site I'd just about finished in ColdFusion and he told me he was amazed. That I'd done my site in about 70 hours with another 40hours or so to finish it , and he had done a similar site in Free PHP - it had taken two of them (part time) two years to build. Let's assume for the sake of argument that all people working on these sites are costing $50/hour either as paid contractors or as employees including on-costs.I built my site, using expensive ColdFusion for $3500 plus a cold fusion server at perhaps $1200 - total $4700. They built their site using free PHP for (say) two people at 600 hours each - that's $60,000!! But they got the server software for free. Saved a big bunch there by going with the 'free' one didn't they. .Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187349 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:02:18 -0500, Jim Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure how this will be implemented in BlackStone - Isaac's post was the first I'd heard of it. But it is doable in Java (of course) and it wouldn't be all that hard to create a CFC to kick something like this off in CFMX (several people on this list have already done it I'm sure). If they're going to standardize it in BlackStone, more power to them, but HOW they're going to do it I'm not sure. Will they only support orphaned threads (threads which are created and launched but can't communicate back to the parent thread) or will they support a more complete model. Go read Damon Cooper's blog - he goes into quite a bit of detail about how this will work and, I believe, gives a code example. Yep, I've heard that mentioned in the last few weeks, I just haven't gotten around to actually going and reading it. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187352 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
TIm Uzzanti : Someone mentioned ediet.com which has a traffic ranking of around 280,000 and in comparison CrystalTech is around 23,000. Microsoft.com which is in the top 10 is using ASP.NET and Dell.COM which is in the top 100 is also using ASP.NET.. Forta has already blogged this, but i think it's a useful repost. Speaking of top internet websites, the hottest social networking site out there, Myspace.com is growing like crazy, 4,5 million memebers declared in the last filing (it's an intermix media property, mix). From a Bambi Francisco article on CBS Marketwatch on december 9 (MySpace value unlocked) : After all, MySpace has twice as many unique visitors than Friendster had when the social network site was valued... Mark Pincus, who started Tribe Network, a Web site that's positioning itself as a classifieds and local information guide, said MySpace could be worth about $50 million. That's assuming the 3 million unique visitors go to the site 100 times, on average. That would be 300 million page views. Well, 300 million page views, not so bad, someone can inform Tim Uzzanti that there're actually busy websites built in CF :-) On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:16:04 -0400, Will Tomlinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to bring this one in from the Blackstone Beta thread yesterday because I think we all need to talk about this. I'm not going to rehash most of what's been said in that thread. ASP.NET is taking market away from CF! WHY? Will Blackstone fix the shift that's taking place? I say no! CF is still outrageous to purchase. The licensing for the .NET SDK is free as is the licensing to deploy. I'm not trying to attack CF here, I'm really not. I'm just trying to wake people up, because I think we've been lulled to sleep by Blackstone. Blackstone is not equivalent to .NET in power and performance. Yeah, maybe it's easy for us to code our simple CFML, and yeah that cfdocument is pretty neat, but there are a few factors making CF'ers like me change hats, and put on the .NET one! Will MM ever come up with a true development language like .NET? Are they going to keep putting more icing on the same cake, while Microsoft bakes fresh ones? I'll plug Tim Uzzanti's comments below. I think the man would know something about the subject, plus he'll tend to be more honest since he's not on our side of the business. One more thing. Please don't attack me! I'm just the messenger! Tim Uzzanti: If you believe CF can handle the same traffic loads that .NET can handle, then you are completely confused on the technologies and their infrastructure. I have no idea if 75% of fortune 100% companies use CF, I would love to see some documentation for that, but the Fortune 100 companies ARE NOT the Top 100 sites on the Internet either! Asking someone who maintains and manages 10,000 hosted applications on Cold Fusion and someone who manages thousands of .NET applications would probably give you a pretty good opinion of what they see? Is it in my BEST interest to tell a customer not to use CF, or is it in my best interest to suggest what might be the best technologies from my experiences on their requirements? Someone mentioned ediet.com which has a traffic ranking of around 280,000 and in comparison CrystalTech is around 23,000. Microsoft.com which is in the top 10 is using ASP.NET and Dell.COM which is in the top 100 is also using ASP.NET Regarding the back end of Cold Fusion: CFMX is much better than CF5 but still has many limitations and quirks that we have see and deal with every day. I am not saying that CF doesn't have the ability to grow with larger sites because it has features like the ability to cluster machines and the classes are compiled etc. What I am saying is, if you would like to build an application that can last longer on certain hardware or run more optimally, CF is not the way to go! Cold Fusion MX out of the box has a setting to support no more than 10 simultaneous requests at one time. Macromedia suggestions that you never exceed 40 and this isn't optimal for a large scale sites. There are other settings and issues from a server administration standpoint that hinder CFMX from out performing .NET There are other factors that one needs to think about when writing an application. Think about the ability to use Threads in .NET. Depending on your application, sitting and processing 10 requests back to back may take 5 minutes but if you had the ability to run the 10 tasks concurrently you may be able to respond back to the customer in 30 seconds. You have to realize, .NET isn't just a web based language, it is a Development language for desktop and server applications as well. CrystalTech uses SmarterMail which is built on the .NET and it outperforms all other mail servers that are built on C and C++. One last comment that I would also provide to a potential customer who may want to move from a
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
One more thing. Please don't attack me! I'm just the messenger! Ignorance is bliss, my friend. While you're at it, why not throw a message around claiming that the Democrats are better than Republicans, or espouse the ideological supremacy of the Lutheran church over the Catholics. Flame-mongering is pure evil... please stop it. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187362 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
If they're going to standardize it in BlackStone, more power to them, but HOW they're going to do it I'm not sure. Will they only support orphaned threads (threads which are created and launched but can't communicate back to the parent thread) or will they support a more complete model. I'm guessing that they will support being able to get a response from your spawned threads. As I said the actual practical uses for this kind of thing in a web application aren't all that common (think of the really good CF or ASP applications you've seen - none of them support this - I may be wrong, but I don't think PHP supports it either). So I would bet it will pretty simplistic support, not a full thread management model, but that's just a guess. PERL has supported spawning threads for a while. Not sure if it's been since the beginning or why it was included, but I know it's been available to them. Though I remember hearing that it's also sort of like handing a howitzer to a 10 yr old -- hard to know if the spawned PERL threads will consume the server if you're not the one programming them. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187351 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Let's say I have a website I want to cluster on 10 servers. With CF, that's 10 production licenses at whatever cost you can find CF at. With .NET, it's zero cost, so there can be some additional cost savings. Also, no matter what way you cut it, CF Enterprise is quite expensive. Also, only development licenses are free. QA, staging, and test licenses are not with CF, unfortunately. Regarding the relative costs of the expensive ColdFusion and the free other technologies, I have a statement from a colleague in another organisation, which I'll be posting separately. I told him about a site I'd just about finished in ColdFusion and he told me he was amazed. That I'd done my site in about 70 hours with another 40hours or so to finish it , and he had done a similar site in Free PHP - it had taken two of them (part time) two years to build. Let's assume for the sake of argument that all people working on these sites are costing $50/hour either as paid contractors or as employees including on-costs.I built my site, using expensive ColdFusion for $3500 plus a cold fusion server at perhaps $1200 - total $4700. They built their site using free PHP for (say) two people at 600 hours each - that's $60,000!! But they got the server software for free. Saved a big bunch there by going with the 'free' one didn't they. .Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187397 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Kwang Suh wrote: One thing that depresses me about the CF community is their incredible defensiveness, even from MM. If you only take the opinions from people who have subscribed to a relatively high volume mailing list called CF-Talk you'd be very naive to expect anything else. Would you expect to see a lot of support for a .NET is better than PHP type of post in the PHP mailing lists. I somehow doubt it. Posting questions about the relative merit of .NET vs CF on this list will undoubtedly get you a lot of responses that are skewed towards CF, but you may find a few people who have some balanced opinions and experience to share. Posting a message that tells everyone on the list that they are asleep and that they are deluded if they think CF is better than .NET is bound to ruffle a lot of feathers. When .NET came out, and people started to use and understand it better, the Java community did what every CF person should be doing: they learned .NET. And then they deconstructed it. And then they asked themselves: What can we take from .NET to make Java better Really? I'd not heard that before. Can you point me to some of the sources where you got that information? There have certainly been changes for the better in the Java and J2EE world, but I'm not convinced that they were as a direct response to .NET. They realized that JSP was too simple, and that it didn't include enough base functionality. They realized that making custom tags in JSP was too hard. They realized that frameworks like Struts and JSF weren't perhaps the road to go down. They realized that it was too unwieldly to configure and deploy Java servers, and that it brought no real benefits the way they did it. They realized that EJBs were too hard to design, and for no good reason. They realized that in order to keep Java as a first class development platform, they had to fix these problems, and add more features as they went along. Not just one or two cool features that Sun would provide on high as determined by their marketing department, but real things that would matter on a day to day basis from a developer's point of view. I'd pretty much agree with the above statements, but I don't think they happened because of .NET. I think they happened because the customers and community were braying like a herd of donkeys that it needed to be improved. One day, I'd like to see the CF community do that. There's a few people out there that do that, and Will's semi-rant is a vent not just at MM, but the people that use CF that seem to want to defend it to the death, and the verocity at chiding people who want to see CF change and improve. What exactly is it that's too simple, hard, unweildy about CFMX that so desperately needs fixing? I'm curious. I wonder how many people on this list said, before CFMX came out, and before Neo was a twinkle in anyone's eye: CF should be written in Java. I'd say no one. This is not a place for change. I know a few people certainly would have said that quite a long time ago. When Neo first became an twinkle in someone's eye is pretty hard to gauge, but back in late 1998 Live Software were working on CF_Anywhere which was the first sign of a CFML execution engine written in Java. In 2000 n-ary were working on TagFusion which later became New Atlanta's BlueDragon. Both of those were before the official Neo announcement at the 2001 DevCon and I know that they were discussed on this list pretty early in their development cycles. http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=m:4:646:2872 Besides that, I don't really see what point you're trying to make. Even if no-one on this list suggested that CF should be written in Java, why should that mean that this list is not a place for change? By that reasoning the fact that no-one else (or at least not many) foresaw the popularity of the I-Pod would mean that no-one but Steve Jobs has the foresight for change. Spike ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187407 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
One thing that depresses me about the CF community is their incredible defensiveness, even from MM. When .NET came out, and people started to use and understand it better, the Java community did what every CF person should be doing: they learned .NET. And then they deconstructed it. And then they asked themselves: What can we take from .NET to make Java better They realized that JSP was too simple, and that it didn't include enough base functionality. They realized that making custom tags in JSP was too hard. They realized that frameworks like Struts and JSF weren't perhaps the road to go down. They realized that it was too unwieldly to configure and deploy Java servers, and that it brought no real benefits the way they did it. They realized that EJBs were too hard to design, and for no good reason. They realized that in order to keep Java as a first class development platform, they had to fix these problems, and add more features as they went along. Not just one or two cool features that Sun would provide on high as determined by their marketing department, but real things that would matter on a day to day basis from a developer's point of view. One day, I'd like to see the CF community do that. There's a few people out there that do that, and Will's semi-rant is a vent not just at MM, but the people that use CF that seem to want to defend it to the death, and the verocity at chiding people who want to see CF change and improve. I'm curious. I wonder how many people on this list said, before CFMX came out, and before Neo was a twinkle in anyone's eye: CF should be written in Java. I'd say no one. This is not a place for change. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187399 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Kwang Suh wrote: Let's say I have a website I want to cluster on 10 servers. With CF, that's 10 production licenses at whatever cost you can find CF at. With .NET, it's zero cost, so there can be some additional cost savings. I'd like to see the total cost break-down for a site that was so large it required 10 clustered servers. I doubt the bottom line would move perceptibly if you switched from CF to a free option. Also, no matter what way you cut it, CF Enterprise is quite expensive. If you're a child at school, a new mountain bike costing $200 is expensive. If you're a student at college, a new car costing $5000 is expensive. If you're a medium sized shipping company, a new truck costing $100,000 is expensive. If you're a multinational shipping company, a new jet costing $10,000,000 is expensive. The numbers may not be spot on, but you get the general idea. Expensive is not an absolute term. It depends on the nature of what you're doing. A multinational shipping company is the only one I'd expect to require 10 clustered CF servers to run their app, and that app would probably be saving them an amount of money that is enormous when compared to the $60,000 one time cost of the CF licenses. Also, only development licenses are free. QA, staging, and test licenses are not with CF, unfortunately. Again, whether this is actually expensive to your company depends on the size of your company and what you want to use the app for. Regarding the relative costs of the expensive ColdFusion and the free other technologies, I have a statement from a colleague in another organisation, which I'll be posting separately. I told him about a site I'd just about finished in ColdFusion and he told me he was amazed. That I'd done my site in about 70 hours with another 40hours or so to finish it , and he had done a similar site in Free PHP - it had taken two of them (part time) two years to build. Let's assume for the sake of argument that all people working on these sites are costing $50/hour either as paid contractors or as employees including on-costs.I built my site, using expensive ColdFusion for $3500 plus a cold fusion server at perhaps $1200 - total $4700. They built their site using free PHP for (say) two people at 600 hours each - that's $60,000!! But they got the server software for free. Saved a big bunch there by going with the 'free' one didn't they. .Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187411 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
If you need to do something like that you can easily write it in Java and call the java code from a CFML template. Ah yes, the old use Java when CF can't do it crutch. I though the whole point of CF was to make it easy for developers to develop. And everything else is hard/takes longer/is more expensive. So why do I want to use something hard like Java to do something in CF? ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187418 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Kwang Suh wrote: Let's say I have a website I want to cluster on 10 servers. With CF, that's 10 production licenses at whatever cost you can find CF at. With .NET, it's zero cost, so there can be some additional cost savings. I'd like to see the total cost break-down for a site that was so large it required 10 clustered servers. Hmm, Macromedia's for one. Not sure if has ten, but there's a quite a few there. Anandtech was running quite a few as well. There's William Sonoma. How about Toys'R'Us before they switched over? Pottery Barn. I doubt the bottom line would move perceptibly if you switched from CF to a free option. Proof? Also, no matter what way you cut it, CF Enterprise is quite expensive. If you're a child at school, a new mountain bike costing $200 is expensive. If you're a student at college, a new car costing $5000 is expensive. If you're a medium sized shipping company, a new truck costing $100,000 is expensive. If you're a multinational shipping company, a new jet costing $10,000,000 is expensive. The numbers may not be spot on, but you get the general idea. Expensive is not an absolute term. It depends on the nature of what you're doing. Yes, and for web development, CF Enterprise is expensive. And apparently every country in the world buys and sells in US$. A multinational shipping company is the only one I'd expect to require 10 clustered CF servers to run their app, and that app would probably be saving them an amount of money that is enormous when compared to the $60,000 one time cost of the CF licenses. Probably? Proof please. And, apparently Macromedia is a multinational shipping company. Also, only development licenses are free. QA, staging, and test licenses are not with CF, unfortunately. Again, whether this is actually expensive to your company depends on the size of your company and what you want to use the app for. Yeah, you're right. I don't need a QA server. Thanks for setting me straight on that. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187421 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Kwang Suh wrote: One thing that depresses me about the CF community is their incredible defensiveness, even from MM. If you only take the opinions from people who have subscribed to a relatively high volume mailing list called CF-Talk you'd be very naive to expect anything else. Would you expect to see a lot of support for a .NET is better than PHP type of post in the PHP mailing lists. I somehow doubt it. Posting questions about the relative merit of .NET vs CF on this list will undoubtedly get you a lot of responses that are skewed towards CF, but you may find a few people who have some balanced opinions and experience to share. Posting a message that tells everyone on the list that they are asleep and that they are deluded if they think CF is better than .NET is bound to ruffle a lot of feathers. When .NET came out, and people started to use and understand it better, the Java community did what every CF person should be doing: they learned .NET. And then they deconstructed it. And then they asked themselves: What can we take from .NET to make Java better Really? I'd not heard that before. Can you point me to some of the sources where you got that information? JCP. There have certainly been changes for the better in the Java and J2EE world, but I'm not convinced that they were as a direct response to . NET. They realized that JSP was too simple, and that it didn't include enough base functionality. They realized that making custom tags in JSP was too hard. They realized that frameworks like Struts and JSF weren't perhaps the road to go down. They realized that it was too unwieldly to configure and deploy Java servers, and that it brought no real benefits the way they did it. They realized that EJBs were too hard to design, and for no good reason. They realized that in order to keep Java as a first class development platform, they had to fix these problems, and add more features as they went along. Not just one or two cool features that Sun would provide on high as determined by their marketing department, but real things that would matter on a day to day basis from a developer's point of view. I'd pretty much agree with the above statements, but I don't think they happened because of .NET. I think they happened because the customers and community were braying like a herd of donkeys that it needed to be improved. One day, I'd like to see the CF community do that. There's a few people out there that do that, and Will's semi-rant is a vent not just at MM, but the people that use CF that seem to want to defend it to the death, and the verocity at chiding people who want to see CF change and improve. What exactly is it that's too simple, hard, unweildy about CFMX that so desperately needs fixing? Who said anything about fixing? I'd like more functionality: I'd like to have cftransaction work across multiple databases. And allowed nested cftransactions. I'd like some other number type beside floating point. I'd like a concept of null type. I'd like to have CFCs have interfaces, constructors, overloaded methods, more obvious variable scoping. I'd like to have at least a collection CFC type. I'd like to have threads. Yes, yes, yes, I've filled out the damn wish form. I'm curious. I wonder how many people on this list said, before CFMX came out, and before Neo was a twinkle in anyone's eye: CF should be written in Java. I'd say no one. This is not a place for change. I know a few people certainly would have said that quite a long time ago. When Neo first became an twinkle in someone's eye is pretty hard to gauge, but back in late 1998 Live Software were working on CF_Anywhere which was the first sign of a CFML execution engine written in Java. In 2000 n-ary were working on TagFusion which later became New Atlanta's BlueDragon. Both of those were before the official Neo announcement at the 2001 DevCon and I know that they were discussed on this list pretty early in their development cycles. Not on this list. Thank you. Besides that, I don't really see what point you're trying to make. Even if no-one on this list suggested that CF should be written in Java, why should that mean that this list is not a place for change? Oh I dunno. Let's see what you've said: No one needs 10 web servers, except for multinational shipping corporations. The opportunity for a company to have a QA server is based not on need and things like good practices, but on how much money they have. Use Java for threading. Everything in CF works properly. I'm not sure how open minded that is. By that reasoning the fact that no-one else (or at least not many) foresaw the popularity of the I-Pod would mean that no-one but Steve Jobs has the foresight for change. Not sure how you jumped to that
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I'd like this, but I think there are a lot of people out there who do not fully understand what a null is and is not. -- Aaron Rouse http://www.happyhacker.com/ On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:21:42 -0400, Kwang Suh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like a concept of null type ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187425 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Well, Excuse me! Kwang Suh wrote: If you need to do something like that you can easily write it in Java and call the java code from a CFML template. Ah yes, the old use Java when CF can't do it crutch. Please don't belittle my comments with such an offhand packaged response. I am try to respond in a reasonable and considered manner. The least you could do is return the courtesy. What is it that makes you think that it is a crutch? On the one hand you're berating CFML for it's lack of vision, and on the other you seem to be claiming that it's somehow cheating to use some of the very powerful things that CFMX makes available to you. I though the whole point of CF was to make it easy for developers to develop. And everything else is hard/takes longer/is more expensive. CF abstracts the complexity away from the developer. Some applications are more complex than others and although CF does an excellent job for the majority of cases, there are times when it is desirable to work at a lower level than CFML will allow. In those cases it is entirely reasonable to write that functionality in Java and call the java classes from a CFML template. There are quite a few benefits to this not least of which is that CFML stays simple enough to be an entry level language that is easy to debug and maintain, while still being powerful enough to be used in some of the largest and most complex applications around. I would guess that the vast majority of CFML developers will never need to write any java code. CFMX already provides them with all the tools they need to get the job done and in the cases where it doesn't, there are quite a few tools out there written in Java to fill the gaps and no shortage of developers who can write the necessary java code if you can't write it yourself. So why do I want to use something hard like Java to do something in CF? Because you're pushing the limits of what the application server is designed to do. The application server is designed to meet the needs of the majority of the customers. There will inevitbly be cases where that means that it isn't desirable or possible to implement some functionality in CFML itself. The pay off is that CFML stays approachable and simple to work with. I for one would be horrified if Macromedia decided to expose full thread management in CFML. Thread programming is relatively complex and you can easily tie the server in knots if you aren't careful. The point is that all the power you need is available to CF as long as you are prepared to accept that some things will need to be done in Java. Macromedia try pretty hard to make sure that those things are edge cases and don't impact the majority of their customers. If they didn't ColdFusion would have disappeared a long time ago. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187429 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Huh? So suggesting mixing VB.NET and C# to squeeze more power from a .NET app that is what, a crutch? And what about writing straight Java when JSP can't do enough? I hate to take the other side of this argument, but I think your example is flawed. There's no practical reason to use C# over VB.Net because they are both 1st class .Net languages. In other words, neither language is more powerful than the other. From what I've seen, you could convert a VB.Net app to C# with a search and replace. This is in contrast to the jump from CFML to Java, which is relatively huge. You're going from a dynamic/weakly typed, quasi-markup scripting language to a static/strongly typed, C-style compiled language. And that's not counting the shift from procedural programming to object oriented programming. You simply can't expect most ColdFusion developers to make the jump from ColdFusion to Java. That said, I think that, for most people, the barrier to entry for VB.Net/C# is greater than that for ColdFusion. However, once you've made that jump, the .Net framework provides a tremendous amount of functionality. Nevertheless, as opposed to constructs like cffile action=upload, the .Net framework is not necessarily Web friendly. You have to write a lot of implementation code in ASP.Net that you don't have to write in ColdFusion. Ben Rogers http://www.c4.net v.508.240.0051 f.508.240.0057 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187433 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I like to give people some credit. If I understand what a null is, I'm sure anyone else can. I'd like this, but I think there are a lot of people out there who do not fully understand what a null is and is not. -- Aaron Rouse http://www.happyhacker.com/ On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:21:42 -0400, Kwang Suh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like a concept of null type ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187435 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:14:40 -0500, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, your assumption is that everyone's using Windows. If that's not the case, then you need to factor in the cost of Windows licenses as well as potential server management costs. In addition, you might be able to scale up better with a non-Windows solution (which generally limits you to scaling out rather than up). Compare, for example, the cost of an 8-CPU Oracle license for web access with the cost of CF Enterprise on a cluster of six 8-CPU servers. The Oracle license is way more expensive. Consider the costs of creating a fully redundant Oracle master/slave cluster to serve a website. If you're in that sort of business arena, CF isn't expensive at all. WebSphere, WebLogic, Oracle AS et al are all more expensive than CF Enterprise. The integration software packages to integrate those to ERP and CRM systems are $100k per server. Finally, the cost of software is typically a small fraction of overall application deployment and maintenance costs anyway. If you save a little bit per programming man-hour, you'll easily pay for whatever you license over a short time. Exactly. The sorts of companies who don't blink at the cost of systems like I just described are running projects that have $5-10m budgets and most of it is manpower. -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187437 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:12:15 -0400, Kwang Suh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, Macromedia's for one. Not sure if has ten, but there's a quite a few there. Anandtech was running quite a few as well. There's William Sonoma. How about Toys'R'Us before they switched over? Pottery Barn. I think we have about a dozen webservers (4 CPU I think) and 5 8-CPU app servers and an 8 CPU db server. Apache / CFMX Enterprise / Oracle on Solaris end-to-end with Cisco hardware load balancers, multi-level firewalls etc etc etc. Probably? Proof please. And, apparently Macromedia is a multinational shipping company. We're close to a half-a-billion dollar a year company doing business globally. Our website is ranked inside the top 200 most trafficked sites in the world. We have close to fifty distinct ColdFusion applications on macromedia.com and about 40,000+ static HTML pages as well. Our web team - including project managers, designers, producters, programmers, QA etc - is about seventy full-time staff. A significant portion of that revenue comes from our website, through our global online stores, powered by ColdFusion. So, yeah, I guess we are analagous to a multinational shipping company... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187441 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Ah yes, the old use Java when CF can't do it crutch. Huh? So suggesting mixing VB.NET and C# to squeeze more power from a .NET app that is what, a crutch? And what about writing straight Java when JSP can't do enough? By design, a .NET app is meant to use any IL conformate language. As well, once a .NET class is compiled, it doesn't really matter what language it's been written in - calling that class is the same. JSPs are merely an abstracted Servlet, so I don't see your point with Java. I do think you have chosen to forget just how limited Java and COM integration is with CF. It's not a panacea. The createObject function is incredibly limited, and cannot be used for some forms of Java object instantiation. I suppose as well then that there's no good reason for CFHTTP to exist. Or CFFTP. I should be using Java for those, right? I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a thread tag in CF. You might even make some people happy with that. Isn't that what you're trying to do? Fulfill client requirements? Why is a person's request to have threading being used as an example of best tool for the best job, when you're adding the cfdocument tag that spits out PDFs? There's lots of Java libraries out there that do that. They're not even that difficult to use. Sorry, that argument is just plain silly. No single language or tool does it all, nor should it. That's why you get to mix tools and languages and technologies. Correct. But depending on what you are building you may need to step beyond CF. That is not a limitation, it is good design. Why do you think we introduced the ability to extend CF (originally using C/C++) back in CF2 in 1996? I am perfectly aware of the reason: Because your customers asked for it. From C, then COM, then Java, then CORBA, then more Java, then SOAP ... do you see a pattern? I have been saying this for years, and I'll keep saying it, the best CF apps are the ones not written purely in CF, and the most important part of CF development is knowing when not to use CF (heck, I wrote a column on this over 5 years ago!). Well then, I must make awesome CF apps, because I never write pure CF apps. Sometimes I use a database with it! And COM, and Java, and Web Services... Hummm, why do I suspect that those who complain most about CF not scaling are the ones violating this basic concept? Well, I hope you're not talking about me, because I have defended CF's scalability numerous times, and not just on here. My last bitch session about CF perfomance ended when CF5 came out. I'm also a paying customer of the company that pays your bills, and perhaps, if you're going to insinuate something to me, you either say it outright, or provide proof of your statements. I've gotten four companies I work at to either upgrade to the newest CF version at the time or to get CF in the place, so please spare me the rhetoric. The last place I worked at, I got them to purchase 2 CF Enterprise licenses and 15 Devnet subs. I have a few web apps deployed right now in CF, and they work hunky dory, thank you very much. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187442 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Is it safe then to assume that you don't use a QA server for .NET development, or are you somehow doing that without paying for a Windows license? No, it is not. My MSDN subscription allows me to run multiple Windows server for non-production purposes. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187444 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Ah yes, the old use Java when CF can't do it crutch. I though the whole point of CF was to make it easy for developers to develop. And everything else is hard/takes longer/is more expensive. So why do I want to use something hard like Java to do something in CF? Actually, I would call it leveraging the full capabilities of the application server. If I can accomplish 99% of my tasks using CFML and 1% using Java while saving myself a substantial amount of development time, that's justification for me. This last post you made was very short-sighted. Rey Bango... ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187424 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
From: Kwang Suh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Feel free to challenge them. And feel free to move this conversation elsewhere... ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187446 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but I vote to take this topic somewhere else. Macromedia Forums is usually the best place to have the I hate ColdFusion debates. I, personally, stopped using the forums mainly because of these religious wars. We all know CF rocks, but it's not the be-all-end-all of web app development. Also, I consider this list a great resource for learning and sharing CF, and web, techniques. There has been nothing beneficial from this thread. It has only served to waste my valuable time when I could be bashing .NET on another mailing list. Thanks M!ke ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187427 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Again, your assumption is that everyone's using Windows. If that's not the case, then you need to factor in the cost of Windows licenses as well as potential server management costs. In addition, you might be able to scale up better with a non-Windows solution (which generally limits you to scaling out rather than up). Finally, the cost of software is typically a small fraction of overall application deployment and maintenance costs anyway. If you save a little bit per programming man-hour, you'll easily pay for whatever you license over a short time. Lest not forget the costs of patch management. MS now releases patches on a monthly schedule. In a large enterprise its a full time job to keep up with pathches that often, so add in the salaries of a few MCSEs, then Software Testers, then a patch management lab. Then again, you could just ignore the patches and allow your servers to continually crash. -Adam ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187454 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Kwang Suh wrote: Kwang Suh wrote: Let's say I have a website I want to cluster on 10 servers. With CF, that's 10 production licenses at whatever cost you can find CF at. With .NET, it's zero cost, so there can be some additional cost savings. I'd like to see the total cost break-down for a site that was so large it required 10 clustered servers. Hmm, Macromedia's for one. Not sure if has ten, but there's a quite a few there. Anandtech was running quite a few as well. There's William Sonoma. How about Toys'R'Us before they switched over? Pottery Barn. I said I'd like to see the total cost break-down for sites like that, not a list of possible candidates. I doubt the bottom line would move perceptibly if you switched from CF to a free option. Proof? I don't have any. That's why I prefaced my comment with I doubt. It's my opinion, nothing more. Also, no matter what way you cut it, CF Enterprise is quite expensive. If you're a child at school, a new mountain bike costing $200 is expensive. If you're a student at college, a new car costing $5000 is expensive. If you're a medium sized shipping company, a new truck costing $100,000 is expensive. If you're a multinational shipping company, a new jet costing $10,000,000 is expensive. The numbers may not be spot on, but you get the general idea. Expensive is not an absolute term. It depends on the nature of what you're doing. Yes, and for web development, CF Enterprise is expensive. Why do you need CF Enterprise? The price of a Windows 2003 server standard license is the same as a CFMX Pro license. The price of a Windows 2003 Enterprise server license is pretty close to the price of a CFMX Enterprise license and that still limits you to 25 CALs. And apparently every country in the world buys and sells in US$. I'm not sure what you're getting at there. A multinational shipping company is the only one I'd expect to require 10 clustered CF servers to run their app, and that app would probably be saving them an amount of money that is enormous when compared to the $60,000 one time cost of the CF licenses. Probably? Proof please. And, apparently Macromedia is a multinational shipping company. Well, we could bat this one back and forth over the net all day. I don't have any proof that it is true and you don't appear to have any proof that it isn't. I certainly have enough personal experience of working with ColdFusion to know that 10 clustered servers is an exceptionally large site with a *lot* of traffic. One would hope that any company that has that much traffic has a good reason to be paying the costs associated with running and maintaining a site of that size. The multinational shipping company is the only one from the list I gave that I would expect to require that number of clustered servers. I would be surprised if $60,000 in server licenses would be a blip on the radar for a company Macromedia's size too. Also, only development licenses are free. QA, staging, and test licenses are not with CF, unfortunately. Again, whether this is actually expensive to your company depends on the size of your company and what you want to use the app for. Yeah, you're right. I don't need a QA server. Thanks for setting me straight on that. I didn't say you didn't need a QA server. I said whether it's expensive depends on the size of your company. Is it safe then to assume that you don't use a QA server for .NET development, or are you somehow doing that without paying for a Windows license? ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187438 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Who said anything about fixing? I'd like more functionality: I'd like to have cftransaction work across multiple databases. And allowed nested cftransactions. I'd like some other number type beside floating point. I'd like a concept of null type. I'd like to have CFCs have interfaces, constructors, overloaded methods, more obvious variable scoping. I'd like to have at least a collection CFC type. I'd like to have threads. I think that the problem with some of these is that you risk increasing CF's complexity to the point where you might as well just use Java or ASP.NET. CFML is typeless because HTML forms are typeless. CFML doesn't understand null because it doesn't exist within HTML. I think that for the rest of these things, if you're advanced enough to want to do them you can step outside of CFML and write Java code to do these things. To the degree that these things could be added without sacrificing the simplicity of CFML, I'd certainly agree with you. I'm just not sure if that's possible, in which case I think these features would be detrimental rather than helpful. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ phone: 202-797-5496 fax: 202-797-5444 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187440 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
I'd say most people run CF on Windows, so they're paying for the Windows licenses on top of CF license. Perhaps, but if they are, do you really think they're so cost-conscious about the price of CF server licensing if they're willing to pay for Windows licensing without batting an eye? I like Windows as much as the next guy, but when I provision a server with Windows, I'm paying for something that has a free competitor, just like when I buy CF. Unless you're doing something specific with Windows integration - using Active Directory for IIS authentication for example - how do you justify the cost of purchasing Windows? The same arguments here would apply to justifying the cost of purchasing CF, in my opinion. If it makes your job easier, it's typically worth the cost. If not, it isn't. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ phone: 202-797-5496 fax: 202-797-5444 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187458 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Let's say I have a website I want to cluster on 10 servers. With CF, that's 10 production licenses at whatever cost you can find CF at. With .NET, it's zero cost, so there can be some additional cost savings. If you're myopic enough to look at that as a valid comparison then you really SHOULD move to .NET. Macromedia is NOT Microsoft. ColdFusion cannot be free at that level. Microsoft sells (rather expensive) servers and supporting tools (SQL Server, Exchange, etc) by taking a hit on .NET. How would MM recoup the massive costs of development for giving away CF? If you think that statement proves some point, so be it. But remember also that this argument is hardly new: the same was said (repeatedly) when ASP was free and CF cost money (and compared to today both sucked). CF not only continued to seel, but thrived. It continues to thrive. Also, no matter what way you cut it, CF Enterprise is quite expensive. CF Enterprise is a god-damn, freakin' bargain. For $5,000 (less actually, with partner discounts) I can cap a $70,000 WebSpere installation and saving 10 times that in development costs. For those ten servers (let's assume IBM blades running AIX and WebSphere) the total cost of installation and software runs quickly into the million dollar range. ColdFusion is an afterthought. This is assuming that any entprise would actually build an application like that... but most won't. If an application needed 10 clustered application servers you're also probably looking at least 5-10 clustered presentation servers. Perhaps a few SSL accelerators. Maybe a Local-Director or Site Selector out in front. The infrastructure costs alone can top 10 million. Want a Database? Oracle and its associated infrastructure will probably add at least another 2 million. Content Managment? Expect to throw at least a million at Vignette (and it's associated consultants) or a competator. Now throw in what we must assume to be a significant development, testing and management effort. Double your infrastructure costs at least. So, does CF add to this cost? Yes! Does it pay for itself in time savings? Most happy users will give a resounding yes! The simple fact remains that it's not applicable to every project and to every developer. There are also projects where the right developer with the wrong tool will cost you more than anything else. But another simple fact remains: CF is still going strong. The people using it are not all idiots unable to see the great glowing orb of truth over the hill. Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187461 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Kwang Suh wrote: I said I'd like to see the total cost break-down for sites like that, not a list of possible candidates. You doubted that there were companies that used numbers of web servers. I have provided you some. Feel free to ask them. Sean has already answered for you. I don't have any. That's why I prefaced my comment with I doubt. It's my opinion, nothing more. Oh, ok. Why do you need CF Enterprise? What my situation is really has no bearing on the market. Suffice it to say there are customers, even on this list, that use and need it. The price of a Windows 2003 server standard license is the same as a CFMX Pro license. The price of a Windows 2003 Enterprise server license is pretty close to the price of a CFMX Enterprise license and that still limits you to 25 CALs. I'd say most people run CF on Windows, so they're paying for the Windows licenses on top of CF license. And apparently every country in the world buys and sells in US$. I'm not sure what you're getting at there. For some of us, US$10K US is a lot of money. Well, we could bat this one back and forth over the net all day. I don't have any proof that it is true and you don't appear to have any proof that it isn't. No, I gave you proof for whatever statements I have made. Feel free to challenge them. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187445 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
There are no professional CF hosting in Turkey :( So we always need to buy CF to host our projects which should be hosted at different geographical I'm not sure I understand this. If there's no CF hosting in Turkey, why not create some? At the very least it would seem that you could host in another country for most apps. locations. We're using similar approach for most projects, because we generally solve all of the problems of the projects (providing hosting, maintenance, security, content contribution solutions for years). Sometimes our customers wants to host the site their own servers which requires a separate ColdFusion license. These conditions force us to shift other technologies, so maybe I cannot see the future of CF properly due to these conditions. Its popularity is different in Turkey. Again, if you're buying servers already it seems like CF is small cost to incur in comparison - but that depends on the servers you're buying I suppose. Server management costs for a year will dwarf the CF licensing cost - even if you go cheap figure (at least) $50 per hour of sitting in front of that server - that time adds up tremendously. But if you can't afford it (and if the free edition of Blue Dragon isn't applicable) then you'll obviously have to look for different technology. But in my experience that generally always costs more in the long run for any real application. Finally, we have some plans for next year to setup a small CF hosting company in Turkey :) (Any suggestions to setup a CF hosting company are welcome) This will help us to continue with CF. Sounds good to me. ;^) Good luck! Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187449 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
Kwang, I think I know why you've had so many jobs.. You send all the damn day goofing off and bitching. I'll be the first just to come out and say STFU. You're preaching to the converted, you're wasting your time. Now please, for the love of God, drop it and move on. On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:42:41 -0400, Kwang Suh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please don't belittle my comments with such an offhand packaged response. Seriously, I'm not belittling you. I've heard that phrase used so many times for so many situations, it's perhaps an indication to MM that they need to build in some more functionality, especially to keep up with the competition. For instance, there was a post here about how slow string concatenation was in CF. Someone suggested using Java's StringBuilder class. Heck, I wouldn't mind if there was a way to create, say, a superstring in CF that would take care of that for you. What's wrong with that? I am try to respond in a reasonable and considered manner. The least you could do is return the courtesy. What is it that makes you think that it is a crutch? As I have already stated in my response to Ben, createObject is not a panacea. On the one hand you're berating CFML for it's lack of vision, and on the other you seem to be claiming that it's somehow cheating to use some of the very powerful things that CFMX makes available to you. Not everything in Java or COM is usable in CFMX. I for one would be horrified if Macromedia decided to expose full thread management in CFML. Thread programming is relatively complex and you can easily tie the server in knots if you aren't careful. Well, so is SQL, but there it is. There are many ways to kill yourself with CF as it is, and I don't think adding thread capabilities is going to have people up in arms. I don't want a product that requires mittens on my hands just in case I happen to type some code that'll blow up the server, as it were. The point is that all the power you need is available to CF as long as you are prepared to accept that some things will need to be done in Java. Macromedia try pretty hard to make sure that those things are edge cases and don't impact the majority of their customers. I don't really consider some of these things edge cases. Poor Will. All he wanted was a better ColdFusion. If they didn't ColdFusion would have disappeared a long time ago. Why? ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187451 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs ASP.NET! GET YOUR FRESH POPCORRRRN!!
And at this point I'll have to ask that the conversation be moved to CF-OT or CF-Community. Thank you. Kwang, I think I know why you've had so many jobs.. You send all the damn day goofing off and bitching. I'll be the first just to come out and say STFU. You're preaching to the converted, you're wasting your time. Now please, for the love of God, drop it and move on. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187452 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
