Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 16 Jan 2014, at 05:10, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Actually I can't be bothered asking Edgar the same questions again and getting no answer again (or a non-answer like the one he just gave Chris, while carefully ignoring me). If he wants to ignore my questions, I shouldnt waste time asking. So I have deleted my post restating the questions I asked

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

.@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

gt;> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM >> *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com >> >> *Subject:* Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational >> reality >> >> >> >> On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> &g

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

roups.com ] *On Behalf Of *LizR > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM > *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational > reality > > > > On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen > > wrote: > &

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 16 January 2014 13:10, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > >>Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. >> > > What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the > computations? > > W

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 16 Jan 2014, at 01:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations? Whatever it is, Bruno's

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

There are an awful lot of hidden assumptions implied by that first explicit assumption "imagine a world in which everything is computational". I've asked for clarification from Edgar, but I won't hold my breath while I wait. On 16 January 2014 22:44, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 16 Jan 2014, at

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 16 Jan 2014, at 00:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All, I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum events more clearly and succinctly. Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. That does not exist. If everything is computational, I am com

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 16 January 2014 17:10, Chris de Morsella wrote: > > *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: > everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM > > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Another

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

I would like to know what Edgar means by a computational world before I worry about deriving the properties of particles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>> wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations? Whatever it is, Bruno's UD will event

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/15/2014 3:12 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All, I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum events more clearly and succinctly. Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. In particular where the usually imagined single pre-existing dimensional

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Edgar, There is another way to get particle property conservation: Particles that happen to have the same properties have a symmetry that is unique to QM: the exchange symmetry. Study it carefully. :-) This symmetry does not require a si

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. > What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

All, I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum events more clearly and succinctly. Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. In particular where the usually imagined single pre-existing dimensional spacetime background does NOT exist. Now co

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 04 Jan 2014, at 09:28, meekerdb wrote: On 1/4/2014 12:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Jan 2014, at 20:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Wi

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 03 Jan 2014, at 23:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 11:38 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-a

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/4/2014 12:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Jan 2014, at 20:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not?

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 04 Jan 2014, at 02:44, Chris de Morsella wrote: Exactly – the comforting fairy tale wins out every time, because it can say whatever it wants – after all who is checking lol -- and so can be customized and tweaked until it provides that culturally tuned comforting warm blanket of –

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 03 Jan 2014, at 21:07, LizR wrote: On 4 January 2014 08:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not? The

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 03 Jan 2014, at 20:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not? The real question is "do we have the righ

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 03 Jan 2014, at 19:48, Richard Ruquist wrote: That is, if time is not increasing or changing, then there are no computations happening. It's a static block universe. Is that possible? The only "time" needed for the notion of computation is the successor relation on the non negati

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Friday, January 03, 2014 1:00 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 02 Jan 2014, at 21

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

014 3:36 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality Mine was free (i.e. paid for by my taxes). Sounds like you guys need a decent health care system... On 4 January 2014 12:04, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 12:09 PM,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

That's the truth! But to be fair, most of it was paid by my insurance. Brent On 1/3/2014 3:36 PM, LizR wrote: Mine was free (i.e. paid for by my taxes). Sounds like you guys need a decent health care system... On 4 January 2014 12:04, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Mine was free (i.e. paid for by my taxes). Sounds like you guys need a decent health care system... On 4 January 2014 12:04, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/3/2014 12:09 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 4 January 2014 08:38, Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/3/2014 12:09 PM, LizR wrote: On 4 January 2014 08:38, Jason Resch > wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

I'm going to sue the people who removed my gall bladder for every cent! (...or maybe not, since they may have saved my life :) On 4 January 2014 11:10, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/3/2014 11:38 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 1/3/2014 1:14

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/3/2014 11:38 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 4 January 2014 08:38, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the >> theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch >> it on

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 4 January 2014 08:34, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the > theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch > it on? I am serious! > > > Why not? The real question is "do we h

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the > theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch > it on? I am serious! > > > Why not? The real question is "

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not? The real question is "do we have the right to switch it off?" If you switch it off, it

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 03 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> snip >> >> Okay, and I can agree with this in some respects. If

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 03 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote: snip Okay, and I can agree with this in some respects. If the first person view is the view of a computation, then the computation ha

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> Could be... convalescing from the flu I will try to reply... >> >> >>

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

I think Aldous Huxley said something similar, I'm not sure what drugs he took offhand - mescaline? - but I think he mentioned the "outside time" experience. Yes, good old Google tells me that it was indeed mescaline - and also this... In this state, Huxley explains he didn't have an "I", but inst

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Hi Jason, Could be... convalescing from the flu I will try to reply... Thanks Stephen. I hope you feel better soon. Maybe it is out minds that focus so much on the invariant,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 02 Jan 2014, at 22:14, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear Stephen, On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental and then work from there to

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 02 Jan 2014, at 21:21, Chris de Morsella wrote: >>If you can control the beliefs, you can control the people. But if theology is conceived as a science, then you get the means to interrogate the beliefs, criticize the theories, single out the contradiction and progress toward possibl

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Could be... convalescing from the flu I will try to reply... > > > Thanks Stephen. I hope you feel better soon. > On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> Stephen, >> >>

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Dear Stephen, > > On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > > >I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental > and then work from there to solve the problem of the other which will give >

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 12:11 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 01 Jan 2014, at

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

ent:* Wednesday, January 01, 2014 3:50 AM > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational > reality > > > On 31 Dec 2013, at 22:16, LizR wrote: > > > My 15 year old son asked me "Why do people believe i

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 01 Jan 2014, at 22:45, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 3:50 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 01 Jan 2014, at 21:30, meekerdb wrote: On 1/1/2014 3:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Because all correct machine, cognitively rich enough (= believing in numbers and induction, or being Löbian, ...) when they look inward, discover the gap between G and G*, or the gap between truth about th

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 01 Jan 2014, at 21:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/1/2014 2:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Then there is the FPI emergence, which is made of all finite union of the finite piece of the UD work. Don't you say that persons and matter are not computable because the number of UD states corresponding

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 3:50 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 31 Dec 2013, at

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/1/2014 3:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Because all correct machine, cognitively rich enough (= believing in numbers and induction, or being Löbian, ...) when they look inward, discover the gap between G and G*, or the gap between truth about them and proof about them. As an analysis of huma

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1/1/2014 2:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Then there is the FPI emergence, which is made of all finite union of the finite piece of the UD work. Don't you say that persons and matter are not computable because the number of UD states corresponding to a piece of matter is not finite? Isn't thi

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:46, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 5:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear Stephen, On 31 Dec 2013, at 20:19, Stephen Paul King wrote: How does it emerge? The UD, alias RA, emulates all machines. I see this as true, but in th

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Stephen, On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental and then work from there to solve the problem of the other which will give us a 3p. That's for woman and engineers. The doer. It is only the right b

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 5:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Dear Stephen, > > > On 31 Dec 2013, at 20:19, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > > > I really do appreciate the details! > > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: >>

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Bruno, I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental and then work from there to solve the problem of the other which will give us a 3p. On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 5:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 31 Dec 2013, at 19:59, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Bruno, >

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 31 Dec 2013, at 22:39, meekerdb wrote: On 12/31/2013 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: To be sure, the material hypostases are not transitive, so when we observe, we don't observe that we observe, but when we feel or know, it is the case that we feel feeling and we know that we know (altho

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 31 Dec 2013, at 22:16, LizR wrote: My 15 year old son asked me "Why do people believe in God?" Because all correct machine, cognitively rich enough (= believing in numbers and induction, or being Löbian, ...) when they look inward, discover the gap between G and G*, or the gap between

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Stephen, On 31 Dec 2013, at 20:19, Stephen Paul King wrote: I really do appreciate the details! On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 31 Dec 2013, at 19:59, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, Is a 3p view necessarily an ontological primitive? OF course: no. Only the one we assume at the start. But an ontological primitive is arguably necessarily 3p in the scientific explanation of the 1p, or on anything. Bruno

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear LizR, Indeed! The observation of ultra high energy gamma rays that traveled a long long way ... no dependence seen between energy and velocity... My thought was to replace the single IceCube or FishBowl of space-time with many; one per observer with a composition rule for observers that

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Another question that has been asked but not had a satisfactory response is, what testable consequences does your theory have? Or if that's too difficult, other supporting evidence could be considered (like mathematical beauty). Comp, for example, appears to predict some aspects of quantum theory,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1 January 2014 12:09, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Liz, et al, > > I apologize for not responding to all posts, I'm very busy running my > business and have limited time to post here. So in general I'm just > responding to posts that don't ask questions I've already answered, or > those that demonst

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Liz, et al, I apologize for not responding to all posts, I'm very busy running my business and have limited time to post here. So in general I'm just responding to posts that don't ask questions I've already answered, or those that demonstrate some real comprehension or genuine interest in the

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 1 January 2014 10:18, Jason Resch wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> Because it's not the computations themselves, but the fact they occur in >> the Present Time locus of reality that makes them real that is relevant... >> >> > So your answer is t

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 12/31/2013 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: To be sure, the material hypostases are not transitive, so when we observe, we don't observe that we observe, but when we feel or know, it is the case that we feel feeling and we know that we know (although not as such). Here I use comp + Theaetetus.

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

My 15 year old son asked me "Why do people believe in God?" Once I'd sung a couple of verses of "The Second Sitting for the Last Supper" by 10cc (as you do) I started to explain the various angles on this - avoiding cognitive dissonance, being sure that you're right in the face of all the evidence

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > Because it's not the computations themselves, but the fact they occur in > the Present Time locus of reality that makes them real that is relevant... > > So your answer is that they can't be real computations unless they occur in

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Bruno, I really do appreciate the details! On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/30/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 30 Dec 2013, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/29/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote: > > On

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Bruno, Is a 3p view necessarily an ontological primitive? If we follow Wheeler's reasoning there is no such thing! On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 31 Dec 2013, at 17:44, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Jason, >> >> Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the resu

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Edgar, You are making a claim without support. Can you explain a mechanism that generates the occurrence of the content of the computations. Bruno and Wheeler do. I am much more Happy with Wheeler's explanation involving interactions, but he does not explain observers. Bruno does give us a

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 31 Dec 2013, at 17:44, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jason, Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations. This is ambiguous, and I am not sure you are using the standard sense of "computations". The FACT of consciousness itself, that the computations are conscious,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Jason, Because it's not the computations themselves, but the fact they occur in the Present Time locus of reality that makes them real that is relevant... Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 1:01:43 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen > > wrote: >

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations. The > FACT of consciousness itself, that the computations are conscious, is due > to the self-manifesting nature of reality as explained in the other post. > >

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Hi Edgar, Wheeler shows how it is possible to obtain an emergent world from interactions between observers. It seems that I might have the exactly title of the paper wrong! Please read this! You will see the relevance immediately! http://jawarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/informationquantu

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Stephen, No, haven't read it... If you think it's relevant you could summarize why... Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 11:57:46 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Edgar, > > I am curious. Have you every read A. Wheeler's It from Bit? Did you > understand the concept of the Surpr

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Edgar, I am curious. Have you every read A. Wheeler's It from Bit? Did you understand the concept of the Surprise 20 Questions game? On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations. The > FACT of co

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Jason, Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations. The FACT of consciousness itself, that the computations are conscious, is due to the self-manifesting nature of reality as explained in the other post. The rest of your questions don't follow. The fact that reality is

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Dec 31, 2013, at 8:28 AM, "Edgar L. Owen" wrote: Jason, Thanks for asking. I'll start a new topic on Consciousness hopefully sometime today as it is clearly an important topic on its own. Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:13:26 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 201

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Jason, Thanks for asking. I'll start a new topic on Consciousness hopefully sometime today as it is clearly an important topic on its own. Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:13:26 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Jason Resch > > wrote: > >> >> >> Do

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 30 Dec 2013, at 23:32, Stephen Paul King wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 2:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 10:33, meekerdb wrote: But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we happen to exist in. I don't see th

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 30 Dec 2013, at 22:33, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:23 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... This sentence "It emerges because instants ar

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 30 Dec 2013, at 22:30, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:23 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... This sentence "

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 09:35, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, Good questions. The computations take place in P-time which is the uni

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > Do you think a computer can be conscious? > > If yes, then do you think the experience of the consciousness within the > computer would be different if the computer existed in a block-time > universes instead of a moving-present universe?

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/30/2013 2:08 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 31 December 2013 10:33, meekerdb wrote: > >> >> But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we >> happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that >> someth

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:08 PM, LizR wrote: > On 31 December 2013 10:33, meekerdb wrote: > >> >> But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we >> happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that >> somethings happen at random and they led to here. >>

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: > On 31 December 2013 10:30, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Dear LizR, >> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:23 PM, LizR wrote: >> >>> On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb wrote: >>> On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 12/30/2013 2:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 10:33, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that somethings happen at random and t

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:49 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/30/2013 1:44 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > "But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we > happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that > somethings happen at random and t

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 31 December 2013 10:33, meekerdb wrote: > > But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we > happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that > somethings happen at random and they led to here. > > Yeah, it's the WAP. Seems quite reasonable to me. I

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 31 December 2013 10:30, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:23 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: >>> >>> On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King < >>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 12/30/2013 1:44 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Brent, "But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that somethings happen at random and they led to here." No, the "one we happen to find ourselves in

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Hi Brent, "But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that somethings happen at random and they led to here." No, the "one we happen to find ourselves in" may be arbitrary, but not "random" per se. The univ

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 12/30/2013 1:23 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King mailto:stephe...@provensecure.com>> wrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... Th

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear LizR, On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:23 PM, LizR wrote: > On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King > > wrote: >> >>> Hi LizR, >>> >>> Round and round we go... This sentence "It emerges because ins

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

Dear Brent, On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 1:40 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: > > On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Hi LizR, >> >> Round and round we go... This sentence "It emerges because instants >> are connected to each other in a way that

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: > > On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Hi LizR, >> >> Round and round we go... This sentence "It emerges because instants >> are connected to each other in a way that makes there appear t

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... This sentence "It emerges because instants are connected to each other in a way that makes there appear to be smooth change

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