Re: Quantum Immortality - the principle of the least improbability/influencing things

2008-12-29 Thread Brent Meeker
kla...@bkpsecurity.com wrote: If Quantum Immortality (QI) is true, then we can ask the question what is the TYPICAL history for an immortal. The typical history (or the typical time/space trajectory) would be the path most of the immortals take (and remember that in QI all of us are

Re: Boltzmann Brains, consciousness and the arrow of time

2008-12-31 Thread Brent Meeker
he Instant, Robin Durie (ed.) Manchester: Clinamen Press, 2000 Subjects: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc) Citeas: arXiv:gr-qc/0104097v1 Brent Meeker The whole point of time symmetry, the very definition, is tha

Re: Boltzmann Brains, consciousness and the arrow of time

2009-01-01 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: It seems to me that your reasoning illustrates well the problems with physical supervenience and physicalism, and perhaps ASSA. In any case the Universal Dovetailer generates all such gaz universes generating the Boltzmann brains. Now the probability that you are

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-05 Thread Brent Meeker
Abram Demski wrote: Thomas, If time is merely an additional space dimension, why do we experience moving in it always and only in one direction? Why do we remember the past and not the future? Could a being move in some spatial dimension in the same way we move through time, and in doing

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-06 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/6 Abram Demski abramdem...@gmail.com: Thomas, If time is merely an additional space dimension, why do we experience moving in it always and only in one direction? Why do we remember the past and not the future? Could a being move in some spatial dimension

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-06 Thread Brent Meeker
Lewis Carroll Epstein says the reason we can't go faster than light is that we can't go slower than light, c is our speed along the time axis. Brent Günther Greindl wrote: Abram, an intuition I have come to concerning time is the following (it is only qualitative and may or may not be

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-07 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/7 Abram Demski abramdem...@gmail.com wrote: I would not deny causality in such a universe so long as the logical structure enforces the Life rules (meaning, the next level in the stack is *always* the next life-tick, it couldn't be something else... which

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-08 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/7 Abram Demski abramdem...@gmail.com wrote: I would not deny causality in such a universe so long as the logical structure enforces the Life rules (meaning, the next level

Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5

2009-01-08 Thread Brent Meeker
John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations beyond common sense, their use as templates for consequences. Now, however, I can't control my 'mouse' - in random and

Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5

2009-01-09 Thread Brent Meeker
, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-09 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But in a block universe, where each frame contains all of the information for a particular time, the order is implicit. What makes it implicit?... increasing entropy? ...conformance to dynamical laws

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-09 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/10 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Consider a simulation of an observer watching a falling stone, running on a digital computer. Does the observer have any way of knowing whether the simulation is being run serially, in parallel, on how many and what

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-10 Thread Brent Meeker
Kim Jones wrote: On 10/01/2009, at 6:37 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: The question is how is the simulated observer made conscious of the passage of (simulated) time. If you just look a momentary machine states, ignoring their causal/temporal relations, how will they create

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-10 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/10 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: The question is how is the simulated observer made conscious of the passage of (simulated) time. If you just look a momentary machine states, ignoring their causal/temporal relations, how will they create

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/11 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I'm suggesting that running a state is incoherent. A machine running a program goes through a sequence of states. Consider 20 consecutive states, s1 to s20, which give rise to several moments

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-12 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/12 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: A machine running a program goes through a sequence of states. Consider 20 consecutive states, s1 to s20, which give rise to several moments of consciousness. Would you say that running the sequence s1 to s20

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-13 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/13 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: In human consciousness, as instantiated by brains, there is a process in which signal/information is not local, it is distributed in spacetime and is connected causally which means, per relativity, that you

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-14 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: However a Turing machine is not just a set of states, it also requires a set of transition rules. So in the same abstract way that the integers are ordered by succession the computational states of a Turing

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-14 Thread Brent Meeker
Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: However a Turing machine is not just

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-15 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/15 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: In an actual physical computer the transition rules are represented by the causal links between the states, so that a particular input will reliably give rise to a particular output. But I return to my question

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-15 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2009, at 18:52, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-15 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2009, at 18:40, Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: However a Turing machine is not just a set of states, it also requires a set of transition rules. So in the same abstract way

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-16 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/16 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But both the electronic and the mechanical computer are implementing a process that is distributed in spacetime and has causal connections. Yes, and my claim is that the causal connections are important

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-16 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2009, at 22:50, Brent Meeker wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2009, at 18:40, Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: snip in a computer program

Re: COMP, Quantum Logic and Gleason's Theorem

2009-01-16 Thread Brent Meeker
Günther Greindl wrote: Hi all, the question goes primarily to Bruno but all other input is welcome :-)) Bruno, you said you have already arrived at a quantum logic in your technical work? May I refer to the following two paragraphs?: We can read here:

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-17 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2009, at 22:50, Brent Meeker wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2009, at 18:40, Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: snip in a computer program

Re: Materialism was:Re: KIM 2.3

2009-01-19 Thread Brent Meeker
Günther Greindl wrote: Brent, I wonder, what do you mean with materialism (I ask this having been a materialist myself)? I didn't use the term - it is one being attributed to me simply because I question the adequacy of logic and mathematics to instantiate physics. Physics only

Re: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold

2009-01-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona agocor...@gmail.com: But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves, the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events

Re: Movie graph and computational supervenience

2009-02-02 Thread Brent Meeker
which is a finite set of triples. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group

Re: Templeton Foundation

2009-02-04 Thread Brent Meeker
Kim Jones wrote: The Templeton Foundation gives sizeable grants to projects for reconciling science and religion, and awards a yearly prize of two million dollars to a philosopher or scientist whose work highlights the spiritual dimension of scientific progress. Go for it, Bruno! If

Re: adult vs. child

2009-02-10 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/10 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com: This sort of talk about random sampling and luck is misleading and is exactly why I broke down the roles of effective probability into the four categories I did in the paper. If you are considering future versions

Re: adult vs. child

2009-02-10 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Feb 2009, at 18:44, Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/10 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com: This sort of talk about random sampling and luck is misleading and is exactly why I broke down the roles of effective probability into the four

Re: adult vs. child AB

2009-02-10 Thread Brent Meeker
be implemented by different physics and hence different causation. Brent Meeker 3) If I am defined as an observer-moment, then I am part of either A1 or A2, not even the whole thing - just my current experience. This is the most conservative definition and thus may be the least misleading

Re: adult vs. child AB

2009-02-10 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/11 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com: 3) If I am defined as an observer-moment, then I am part of either A1 or A2, not even the whole thing - just my current experience. This is the most conservative definition and thus may be the least misleading. This

Re: children and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
exists or it doesn't. Two copies don't increase the measure of a computation and reducing it's vector in Hilbert space doesn't diminish it. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List

Re: children and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Jack Mallah wrote: --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Indeed there seems to be a conflict between MWI of QM and the feeling of consciousness. QM evolves unitarily to preserve total probability, which implies that the splitting into different quasi-classical

Re: adult vs. child

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Feb 2009, at 00:38, Günther Greindl wrote: I'm with Mike and Brent. Bruno, giving A1 and A2 mirrors which would show different stuff violates Stathis' assumption of running the _same_ computation - you can't go out of the system. See my answer to Brent.

Re: children and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Jesse Mazer wrote: Brent Meeker wrote: Indeed there seems to be a conflict between MWI of QM and the feeling of consciousness. QM evolves unitarily to preserve total probability, which implies that the splitting into different quasi-classical subspaces reduces the measure of each

Re: children and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/2/11 Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com mailto:laserma...@hotmail.com Brent Meeker wrote: Indeed there seems to be a conflict between MWI of QM and the feeling of consciousness. QM evolves unitarily to preserve total

Re: Dreams and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Saibal Mitra wrote: Welcome back Jack Mallah! I have a different argument against QTI. I had a nice dream last night, but unfortunately it suddenly ended. Now, this is empirical evidence against QTI because, according to the QTI, the life expectancy of the version of me simulated in

Re: adult vs. child

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Feb 2009, at 00:38, Günther Greindl wrote: I'm with Mike and Brent. Bruno, giving A1 and A2 mirrors which would show different stuff violates Stathis' assumption of running the _same_ computation - you can't go out of the system. See my answer to Brent.

Re: adult vs. child AB

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/11 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But the same could be said about everyday life. The person who wakes up in my bed tomorrow won't be me, he will be some guy who thinks he's me and shares my memories, personality traits, physical characteristics

Re: adult vs. child AB

2009-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/12 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: If continuity is fundamental then personal identity could be defined in terms of it and there could be a real difference between you and someone with the same memories, but without continuity to your past

[Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-19 Thread Brent Meeker
Review of a book that may be of interest to the list. Brent Meeker Original Message Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews 2009-02-26 : View this Review Online http://ndpr.nd.edu/review.cfm?id=15326 : View Other NDPR Reviews http://ndpr.nd.edu/ David Shoemaker, /Personal Identity

Re: Personal Identity and Ethics

2009-02-20 Thread Brent Meeker
between the universe being quantum mechanical, while human thought processes are essentially classical. The classical world emerges from the quantum in the limit of large action. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you

Re: Copying?

2009-02-21 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/22 Stephen Paul King stephe...@charter.net: Ok, my difficulty lies in the notion of copying. If we are going to use a method X to derive a conclusion, does it not make sense that X must be sound? QM forbids the cloning or copying of states:

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/2/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be The copy could be you in the deeper sense that it could be you even in the case where he loses some memory, all memories, or in case he got new memories, including false souvenirs. But

Re: Personal Identity and Memory [was Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Stephen Paul King wrote: - Original Message - From: Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com To: everything-l...@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction] Quentin

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-25 Thread Brent Meeker
russell standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 07:00:39PM -0800, meekerdb @dslextreme.com wrote: I think I am often *not* self-aware. But aside from that, I have definitely been unconscious several times in my life and I'm sure other people (though probably not Stathis) were unconscious

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-25 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/25 meekerdb @dslextreme.com meeke...@dslextreme.com: It is the potential fusion that bothers me. It would seem to imply that after Stathis and I have a simultaneous moment of thinking of nothing our closest continuations might be mixtures, each having

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Feb 2009, at 17:15, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/2/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be The copy could be you in the deeper sense that it could be you even in the case where he loses some memory, all memories, or in case he got

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Feb 2009, at 01:57, Günther Greindl wrote: Hi, Personal identity and memory could be a useful fiction for living. Here I was alluding to possible deeper sense of the self, which makes me conceive that indeed there is only one person playing a trick to

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Feb 2009, at 18:32, Brent Meeker wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Feb 2009, at 17:15, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/2/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be The copy could be you in the deeper sense that it could be you even

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-27 Thread Brent Meeker
John Mikes wrote: Brent: who is making that 'backup' or 'replica' of you? and why? Ask Bruno, he's the one who brought it up. Brent --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/2/28 Günther Greindl guenther.grei...@gmail.com: The issue that we are very reluctant to die if our backup is ten years old but need not worry so much if we backed up one hour ago is simply the heuristic that in one hour we don't change so much, but in ten

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-03-02 Thread Brent Meeker
not fit here, to make a copy of my brain, wouldn't you need more than memories, but the state of the brain at one time to quantum resolution (TNG transporter term). Ronald On Feb 23, 9:04 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/2/24 Brent Meeker meeke

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-03-05 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Mar 2009, at 12:43, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/5 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: Sure. But note that a lot of things happens, including the white rabbits and aberrant histories. Quantum intefrence and decoherence explains why those aberrant histories

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/6 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: If you're not worried about the fair trade, then to be consistent you shouldn't be worried about the unfair trade either. In the fair trade, one version of you A disappears overnight, and a new version of you B is

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-07 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: It's not the addition then loss that's bad (since you end up with the same measure you started with); it's the loss. In the culling teleportation, both people are lost, which is doubly bad. Elsewhere, one new

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-08 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying, since it would radically alter my future experiences

Re: Wolfram Alpha

2009-03-09 Thread Brent Meeker
-fuzzy factual) knowledge can be downloaded from the Net. Along with an enormous amount of fuzzy, non-factual ignorance. Education can now only have a future by teaching skills Like B.S. detection. Brent Meeker The internet is a pornography delivery medium occasionally used for other purposes

Re: Changing the past by forgetting

2009-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
require invoking time-reversal invariance of the state of whole universe (or at least all of it entangled with the particle spin via the measuring apparatus). Brent Meeker although you cannot directly verify it here. But that means that you cannot rule out an alternative theory in which

Re: Changing the past by forgetting

2009-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
russell standish wrote: On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 11:06:42AM -0700, Brent Meeker wrote: Saibal Mitra wrote: If we consider measuring the spin of a particle, you could also say that the two possible outcomes just exist and thatthere are two possible future versions of me. There is no meaningful

Re: Changing the past by forgetting

2009-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
, But does not MWI imply that if we could somehow erase all (retrivable!) records of a measurement, that we would - in effect - be culling that branch from the Tree? - Original Message - From: Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com To: everything-l...@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday

Re: d'Espagnat wins Templeton Award

2009-03-25 Thread Brent Meeker
Kim Jones wrote: On 23/03/2009, at 1:56 AM, John Mikes wrote: Russell, you are not alone as the target of this remark... Many people consider 'creativity' (like change, quality etc.) a POSITIVE concept. - WRONG. - Just consider the recent creative financial genius Maddoff, with his

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you found your experience interesting. You

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Mar 2009, at 14:02, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Brent Meeker
Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-31 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Hello Quentin, Le 30-mars-09, à 20:03, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly,

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-02 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/2 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: I would say that if you are at a fork where one version of you loses all memories and another does not, then you will find yourself going down the no memory loss path. At which point? Also, why is it that we

[Fwd: NDPR Kim Atkins / / / Kim Atkins and Catriona Mackenzie (eds.), Narrative Identity and Moral Identity: A Practical Perspective / / / Practical Identity and Narrative Agency]

2009-04-02 Thread Brent Meeker
There might be something in this that is of interest to the list. Brent Original Message Subject:NDPR Kim Atkins / / / Kim Atkins and Catriona Mackenzie (eds.), Narrative Identity and Moral Identity: A Practical Perspective / / / Practical Identity and Narrative

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/3 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But if you're going to derive physics from consciousness you need to explain what connects across the gap - why is it still you. I appreciate that part of the answer is memories, although Bruno seems to think

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The probability that I go from state A to state B is given by the number of computations going from A to B. The problem with amnesic teleportation, that is teleportation with partial amnesia in the reconstituted

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: What is the advantage of assigning consciousness to computational processes (e.g. UDA), as opposed to just assigning it to the information that is produced by computational processes? For example, to take Maudlin's Computation and Consciousness paper, if you just say that the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Jason Resch wrote: I think in regards to conscious, you can't have one without the other. Both information and computation are needed, as the computation imparts meaning to the information, and the information accumulates meaning making each computation and its result more meaningful. If I

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Jesse Mazer wrote: Brent Meeker wrote: I think meaning ultimately must be grounded in action. That's why it's hard to see where the meaning lies in a computation, something that is just the manipulation of strings. People tend to say the meaning is in the interpretation, noting

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Apr 2009, at 14:50, Brent Meeker wrote: Jason Resch wrote: I think in regards to conscious, you can't have one without the other. Both information and computation are needed, as the computation imparts meaning to the information, and the information

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-20 Thread Brent Meeker
or even explicitly depends on a process, over and above the information: ...sensory data is instead apparently heavily *processed*... ...we *represent* that experience internally... ... and still get *behavior*... Brent Kelly wrote: On Apr 20, 2:04 am, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-21 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Apr 2009, at 17:41, Brent Meeker wrote: A computation is a sequence of numbers (or of strings, or of combinators, etc.) as resulting by an interpretation. For such an interpretation, you don't need a world, only an interpreter that is a universal system

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-21 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Apr 2009, at 18:59, Brent Meeker wrote: The question was whether information was enough, or whether something else is needed for consciousness. I think that sequence is needed, which we experience as the passage of time. When you speak of computations going

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-22 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 21, 11:31 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: We could say that a state A access to a state B if there is a universal machine (a universal number relation) transforming A into B. This works at the ontological level, or for the third person point of view. But if

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-22 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/22 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: The question was whether information was enough, or whether something else is needed for consciousness. I think that sequence is needed, which we experience as the passage of time. When you speak

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-22 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 21, 2:33 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: These states can belong to more than one sequence of conscious experience. But the question is whether the order of the states in the computation is always the same as their order in any sequence of conscious

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/23 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Say a machine is in two separate parts M1 and M2, and the information on M1 in state A is written to a punchcard, walked over to M2, loaded, and M2 goes into state B. Then what you are suggesting

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/24 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/23 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Say a machine is in two separate parts M1 and M2, and the information on M1 in state A is written to a punchcard, walked

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 22, 2:02 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: I was with you up to that last sentence. Forward or backward, we just experience increasing entropy as increasing time, but that doesn't warrant the conclusion that no process is required and an instant within

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 22, 12:24 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: So for that to be a plausible scenario we have to say that a person at a particular instant in time can be fully described by some set of data. Not fully. I agree with Brent that you need an interpreter to

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Jason Resch wrote: Kelly, Your arguments are compelling and logical, you have put a lot of doubt in my mind about computationalism. I have actually been in somewhat of a state of confusion since Bruno's movie graph argument coupled with a paper by Max Tegmark. In Tegmark's paper, he was

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/24 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Boltzmann brains are improbable, but the example of the punchcards is not. The operator could have two punchcards in his pocket, have a conversation with someone on the way from M1 to M2 and end up forgetting

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/25 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: This implicitly assumes that you can dispense with the continuum and treat the process as a succession of discrete states. I question that. So are you saying that, because we are conscious

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-25 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 24, 2:41 am, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: In the materialist view, my mental state is just the state of the particles of my brain at that instant. I think we need some definition of state. Hmmm. Well, I think my view of the word

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 26, 1:08 am, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: These are edges in time, i.e. a future boundary and a past boundary. If these two boundaries are different then we are not longer talking about a state, we're talking about an interval, furthermore an interval

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: In fact I used that same argument with Russell Standish when he said that ants aren't conscious because if they were then we should expect to be experiencing life as ants and not humans. Did you

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 27, 2:27 am, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: An untestable theory. But that's OK since if it's true it's also useless. Ha! True, true. But it being true AND useless would have a certain aesthetic/poetic appeal. Which makes me even more inclined

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 26, 12:47 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: No, I think you're missing my point. Consider your analogy of fitting together images to make a complete picture. You present this as a spatial representation of the sequential flow of consciousness. Now

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-28 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On Apr 27, 12:23 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: So you have indeed the necessity to abandon comp to maintain your form of immaterialist platonism, but then you lose the tool for questioning nature. It almost look like choosing a theory because it does not even

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-28 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/25 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But is it the information in consciousness and is it discrete? If you include the information that is in the brain, but not in consciousness, I can buy the concept of relating states by similarity of content

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/29 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the information in most physical processes, but not consciousness, can be discrete? I would have said just the opposite: that even if it turns out that physics

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/29 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: In Bruno's Washington/Moscow thought experiment that information isn't in your consciousness, although it's available via third persons. My view of the experiment is that you would lose a bit of consciousness, that

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Brent Meeker
Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:05 AM, russell standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: What you are talking about is what I call the Occam catastrophe in my book. The resolution of the paradox has to be that the random/white-noise filled OMs are in fact unable to be observed.

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