Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
[mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 05:10, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 00:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All, I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum events more clearly and succinctly. Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. That does not exist. If everything is computational, I am

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
There are an awful lot of hidden assumptions implied by that first explicit assumption imagine a world in which everything is computational. I've asked for clarification from Edgar, but I won't hold my breath while I wait. On 16 January 2014 22:44, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 01:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations?

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 13:10, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
:] *On Behalf Of *LizR *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.net javascript: wrote: Begin by Imagining a world

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations? What is doing

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
*To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
Actually I can't be bothered asking Edgar the same questions again and getting no answer again (or a non-answer like the one he just gave Chris, while carefully ignoring me). If he wants to ignore my questions, I shouldnt waste time asking. So I have deleted my post restating the questions I asked

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread Edgar L. Owen
All, I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum events more clearly and succinctly. Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. In particular where the usually imagined single pre-existing dimensional spacetime background does NOT exist. Now

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, There is another way to get particle property conservation: Particles that happen to have the same properties have a symmetry that is unique to QM: the exchange symmetryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_interaction. Study it carefully. :-) This symmetry does not require a

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 3:12 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All, I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum events more clearly and succinctly. Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. In particular where the usually imagined single pre-existing

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations? Whatever it is,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
I would like to know what Edgar means by a computational world before I worry about deriving the properties of particles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations? What is doing the imagining

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jan 2014, at 19:48, Richard Ruquist wrote: That is, if time is not increasing or changing, then there are no computations happening. It's a static block universe. Is that possible? The only time needed for the notion of computation is the successor relation on the non

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jan 2014, at 20:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not? The real question is do we have the

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jan 2014, at 21:07, LizR wrote: On 4 January 2014 08:34, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Jan 2014, at 02:44, Chris de Morsella wrote: Exactly – the comforting fairy tale wins out every time, because it can say whatever it wants – after all who is checking lol -- and so can be customized and tweaked until it provides that culturally tuned comforting warm blanket of –

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-04 Thread meekerdb
On 1/4/2014 12:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Jan 2014, at 20:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not?

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jan 2014, at 23:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 11:38 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Jan 2014, at 09:28, meekerdb wrote: On 1/4/2014 12:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Jan 2014, at 20:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware.

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Jan 2014, at 21:21, Chris de Morsella wrote: If you can control the beliefs, you can control the people. But if theology is conceived as a science, then you get the means to interrogate the beliefs, criticize the theories, single out the contradiction and progress toward possible

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Jan 2014, at 22:14, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Dear Stephen, On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental and then

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread LizR
I think Aldous Huxley said something similar, I'm not sure what drugs he took offhand - mescaline? - but I think he mentioned the outside time experience. Yes, good old Google tells me that it was indeed mescaline - and also this... In this state, Huxley explains he didn't have an I, but instead

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Could be... convalescing from the flu I will try to reply...

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote: snip Okay, and I can agree with this in some respects. If the first person view is the view of a computation, then

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote: snip Okay, and I can agree with this in some

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread meekerdb
On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not? The real question is do we have the right to switch it off? If you switch it off, it

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not? The real

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread LizR
On 4 January 2014 08:34, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be self-aware. Will you switch it on? I am serious! Why not? The real

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread LizR
On 4 January 2014 08:38, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that it will be

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread meekerdb
On 1/3/2014 11:38 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Let's say that I built a computer system and showed you the theoretical basis for a claim that

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread LizR
I'm going to sue the people who removed my gall bladder for every cent! (...or maybe not, since they may have saved my life :) On 4 January 2014 11:10, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 11:38 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread meekerdb
On 1/3/2014 12:09 PM, LizR wrote: On 4 January 2014 08:38, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 2:34 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread LizR
Mine was free (i.e. paid for by my taxes). Sounds like you guys need a decent health care system... On 4 January 2014 12:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3/2014 12:09 PM, LizR wrote: On 4 January 2014 08:38, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread meekerdb
That's the truth! But to be fair, most of it was paid by my insurance. Brent On 1/3/2014 3:36 PM, LizR wrote: Mine was free (i.e. paid for by my taxes). Sounds like you guys need a decent health care system... On 4 January 2014 12:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
:36 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality Mine was free (i.e. paid for by my taxes). Sounds like you guys need a decent health care system... On 4 January 2014 12:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/3

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Friday, January 03, 2014 1:00 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 02 Jan 2014, at 21

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Jan 2014, at 22:45, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 3:50 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Paul King
Marchal *Sent:* Wednesday, January 01, 2014 3:50 AM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 31 Dec 2013, at 22:16, LizR wrote: My 15 year old son asked me Why do people believe in God? Because all correct

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-02 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 12:11 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 01 Jan 2014

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Dear Stephen, On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental and then work from there to solve the problem of the other which

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-02 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Could be... convalescing from the flu I will try to reply... Thanks Stephen. I hope you feel better soon. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Dec 2013, at 19:59, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, Is a 3p view necessarily an ontological primitive? OF course: no. Only the one we assume at the start. But an ontological primitive is arguably necessarily 3p in the scientific explanation of the 1p, or on anything.

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Stephen, On 31 Dec 2013, at 20:19, Stephen Paul King wrote: I really do appreciate the details! On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Dec 2013, at 22:16, LizR wrote: My 15 year old son asked me Why do people believe in God? Because all correct machine, cognitively rich enough (= believing in numbers and induction, or being Löbian, ...) when they look inward, discover the gap between G and G*, or the gap between

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Dec 2013, at 22:39, meekerdb wrote: On 12/31/2013 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: To be sure, the material hypostases are not transitive, so when we observe, we don't observe that we observe, but when we feel or know, it is the case that we feel feeling and we know that we know

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental and then work from there to solve the problem of the other which will give us a 3p. On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 5:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 31 Dec 2013, at 19:59, Stephen Paul King wrote:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 5:39 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Dear Stephen, On 31 Dec 2013, at 20:19, Stephen Paul King wrote: I really do appreciate the details! On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Stephen, On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: I think that we should start with 1p - the solipsist - as fundamental and then work from there to solve the problem of the other which will give us a 3p. That's for woman and engineers. The doer. It is only the right

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Jan 2014, at 16:46, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 5:39 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Dear Stephen, On 31 Dec 2013, at 20:19, Stephen Paul King wrote: How does it emerge? The UD, alias RA, emulates all machines. I see this

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread meekerdb
On 1/1/2014 2:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Then there is the FPI emergence, which is made of all finite union of the finite piece of the UD work. Don't you say that persons and matter are not computable because the number of UD states corresponding to a piece of matter is not finite? Isn't

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread meekerdb
On 1/1/2014 3:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Because all correct machine, cognitively rich enough (= believing in numbers and induction, or being Löbian, ...) when they look inward, discover the gap between G and G*, or the gap between truth about them and proof about them. As an analysis of

RE: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 3:50 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality On 31 Dec 2013

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Jan 2014, at 21:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/1/2014 2:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Then there is the FPI emergence, which is made of all finite union of the finite piece of the UD work. Don't you say that persons and matter are not computable because the number of UD states

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Jan 2014, at 21:30, meekerdb wrote: On 1/1/2014 3:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Because all correct machine, cognitively rich enough (= believing in numbers and induction, or being Löbian, ...) when they look inward, discover the gap between G and G*, or the gap between truth about

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 09:35, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, Good questions. The computations take place in P-time

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 22:30, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:23 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 22:33, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:23 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go...

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 23:32, Stephen Paul King wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:19 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 2:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 10:33, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jason, Thanks for asking. I'll start a new topic on Consciousness hopefully sometime today as it is clearly an important topic on its own. Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:13:26 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Jason Resch jason...@gmail.comjavascript:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Jason Resch
On Dec 31, 2013, at 8:28 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, Thanks for asking. I'll start a new topic on Consciousness hopefully sometime today as it is clearly an important topic on its own. Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:13:26 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: On

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jason, Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations. The FACT of consciousness itself, that the computations are conscious, is due to the self-manifesting nature of reality as explained in the other post. The rest of your questions don't follow. The fact that reality is

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, I am curious. Have you every read A. Wheeler's It from Bit? Did you understand the concept of the Surprise 20 Questions game? On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations.

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, No, haven't read it... If you think it's relevant you could summarize why... Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 11:57:46 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Edgar, I am curious. Have you every read A. Wheeler's It from Bit? Did you understand the concept of the Surprise

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Edgar, Wheeler shows how it is possible to obtain an emergent world from interactions between observers. It seems that I might have the exactly title of the paper wrong! Please read this! You will see the relevance immediately!

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations. The FACT of consciousness itself, that the computations are conscious, is due to the self-manifesting nature of reality as explained in the

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jason, Because it's not the computations themselves, but the fact they occur in the Present Time locus of reality that makes them real that is relevant... Edgar On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 1:01:43 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Dec 2013, at 17:44, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jason, Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations. This is ambiguous, and I am not sure you are using the standard sense of computations. The FACT of consciousness itself, that the computations are conscious,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, You are making a claim without support. Can you explain a mechanism that generates the occurrence of the content of the computations. Bruno and Wheeler do. I am much more Happy with Wheeler's explanation involving interactions, but he does not explain observers. Bruno does give us a

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, Is a 3p view necessarily an ontological primitive? If we follow Wheeler's reasoning there is no such thing! On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 31 Dec 2013, at 17:44, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jason, Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, I really do appreciate the details! On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, Because it's not the computations themselves, but the fact they occur in the Present Time locus of reality that makes them real that is relevant... So your answer is that they can't be real computations unless

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread LizR
My 15 year old son asked me Why do people believe in God? Once I'd sung a couple of verses of The Second Sitting for the Last Supper by 10cc (as you do) I started to explain the various angles on this - avoiding cognitive dissonance, being sure that you're right in the face of all the evidence,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread meekerdb
On 12/31/2013 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: To be sure, the material hypostases are not transitive, so when we observe, we don't observe that we observe, but when we feel or know, it is the case that we feel feeling and we know that we know (although not as such). Here I use comp +

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread LizR
On 1 January 2014 10:18, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, Because it's not the computations themselves, but the fact they occur in the Present Time locus of reality that makes them real that is relevant...

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, et al, I apologize for not responding to all posts, I'm very busy running my business and have limited time to post here. So in general I'm just responding to posts that don't ask questions I've already answered, or those that demonstrate some real comprehension or genuine interest in the

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread LizR
On 1 January 2014 12:09, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, et al, I apologize for not responding to all posts, I'm very busy running my business and have limited time to post here. So in general I'm just responding to posts that don't ask questions I've already answered, or those

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread LizR
Another question that has been asked but not had a satisfactory response is, what testable consequences does your theory have? Or if that's too difficult, other supporting evidence could be considered (like mathematical beauty). Comp, for example, appears to predict some aspects of quantum

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-31 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, Indeed! The observation of ultra high energy gamma rays that traveled a long long way ... no dependence seen between energy and velocity... My thought was to replace the single IceCube or FishBowl of space-time with many; one per observer with a composition rule for observers

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, Jason, Liz, The answer is very simple when one understands there are two kinds of time. Present moment P-time is the processor cycle of the computations, and the computations compute clock time. The computations MUST take place in time of some sort to compute anything. The fact that

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 09:35, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, Good questions. The computations take place in P-time which is the universal processor cycle in which they execute. The results of the

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread LizR
On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... This sentence It emerges because instants are connected to each other in a way that makes there appear to be smooth change between them. does not explain anything. I have read

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread LizR
On 30 December 2013 22:30, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Stephen, Jason, Liz, The answer is very simple when one understands there are two kinds of time. Present moment P-time is the processor cycle of the computations, and the computations compute clock time. The computations

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 08:25, LizR wrote: I admit I have difficulty understanding how Bruno's UD runs inside arithmetic Don't push me too much as I really want to explain this to you :) It is not completely obvious, especially if we want be 100% rigorous. There are not so much textbook

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 10:30, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Stephen, Jason, Liz, The answer is very simple when one understands there are two kinds of time. Present moment P-time is the processor cycle of the computations, and the computations compute clock time. The computations MUST take place in

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread meekerdb
On 12/30/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Dec 2013, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 09:35, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, Good questions. The computations take place in P-time which is

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread meekerdb
On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com mailto:stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... This sentence It emerges because instants are connected to each other in a way that makes there

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread LizR
On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... This sentence It emerges because instants are connected to each other

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Brent, On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 1:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we go... This sentence It emerges because instants are

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:23 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi LizR, Round and round we

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread meekerdb
On 12/30/2013 1:23 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com mailto:stephe...@provensecure.com wrote:

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Brent, But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that somethings happen at random and they led to here. No, the one we happen to find ourselves in may be arbitrary, but not random per se. The universe

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread meekerdb
On 12/30/2013 1:44 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Brent, But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that somethings happen at random and they led to here. No, the one we happen to find ourselves in

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread LizR
On 31 December 2013 10:30, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:23 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 December 2013 07:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/30/2013 1:56 AM, LizR wrote: On 30 December 2013 20:53, Stephen

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2013-12-30 Thread LizR
On 31 December 2013 10:33, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But then the explanation for *this* is that it's just a random one we happen to exist in. I don't see that as any better than saying that somethings happen at random and they led to here. Yeah, it's the WAP. Seems quite

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