Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-19 Thread John Mikes
Brent: PS! I did not refer to YOUR ignorance as conventional, I formulated a negligent sentence for the ignorance of our convetnional sciences. I am polite enough to call 'peoples' ignorance an agnosticism. John On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 12:17 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-18 Thread John Mikes
Brent and Craig: Interesting back-and-forth on conventional ignorance basis. We (in physics etc.) identified 'atoms' by mostly mathematical treatment of poorly (if at all) understood phenomenal information (?) limited to the capability pf the 'then' human mind. Now 'we' invented zombies, as a

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-18 Thread meekerdb
On 4/18/2012 1:08 PM, John Mikes wrote: Brent and Craig: Interesting back-and-forth on conventional ignorance basis. My ignorance isn't a convention - it's the real thing. :-) Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 8, 2:10 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: That doesn't follow.  It assmes that zombieness is an attribute of components rather than of their functional organization.  There can obviously be zombie (unconscious) components (e.g. quarks and electrons) which when properly

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 8, 2:10 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: That doesn't follow. It assmes that zombieness is an attribute of components rather than of their functional organization. There can obviously be zombie (unconscious) components (e.g.

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So you think you'll be just as conscious if your atoms are rearranged?  LOL You think you'll be just as conscious if I arrange you out of golf balls instead of atoms? What you are not

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2012 10:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So you think you'll be just as conscious if your atoms are rearranged? LOL You think you'll be just as conscious if I arrange you out of golf

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 17, 1:49 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/17/2012 10:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net  wrote: On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So you think you'll be just as conscious if your atoms are rearranged?  LOL You

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2012 11:30 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 17, 1:49 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/17/2012 10:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 17, 1:36 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote: On 4/17/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So you think you'll be just as conscious

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 17, 3:05 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But a very slight rearrangement by your local anesthesiologist and *you* don't have any sense at all - even though the atoms are still there.  Of course they are entirely different atoms than were constituting you a year ago. I can

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2012 12:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 17, 3:05 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: But a very slight rearrangement by your local anesthesiologist and *you* don't have any sense at all - even though the atoms are still there. Of course they are entirely different atoms

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 17, 3:45 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/17/2012 12:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 17, 3:05 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net  wrote: But a very slight rearrangement by your local anesthesiologist and *you* don't have any sense at all - even though the atoms

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-11 Thread Redshirt Bluejacket
As this topic is touching on both philosophical zombies and deism, I recommend a reading of Bernardo Kastrup's essay, The parallels of Pandeism: http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2010/03/consciousness-and-pandeism.html -- wherein Kastrup observes some intriguing parallels between the debate around

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-09 Thread meekerdb
On 4/9/2012 6:20 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 4:10 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote: But is it an empirical question? What would it mean for

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 1:18 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: A zombie brain component is a component that replicates the function of the tissue it replaces but does not replicate its contribution to consciousness, such as it may be. The visual cortex is necessary for visual

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-08 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But is it an empirical question?  What would it mean for neuroscience to find zombies?  We have some idea what it would mean to find a soul: some seemingly purposeful sequence of brain processes begin without any physical

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-08 Thread meekerdb
On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: But is it an empirical question? What would it mean for neuroscience to find zombies? We have some idea what it would mean to find a soul: some seemingly purposeful sequence

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-08 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/4/8 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: But is it an empirical question? What would it mean for neuroscience to find zombies? We have some idea what it would mean to find a

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-08 Thread meekerdb
On 4/8/2012 5:52 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/4/8 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net On 4/8/2012 6:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:30 AM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:37 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 05.04.2012 01:59 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru  wrote: On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: Since there is no

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-07 Thread meekerdb
On 4/7/2012 6:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:37 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 05.04.2012 01:59 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ruwrote: On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Apr 2012, at 22:53, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.04.2012 21:44 meekerdb said the following: On 4/5/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Display to whom? the homunculus? No, he creates an interesting scheme to escape the homunculus: p. 110. “(1) the unconscious brain constructs a

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-06 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 5, 12:41 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: We do not know what kind of computing brain does. It well might be that at the level of neuron nets it was simpler to create a conscious display than to employ other means. That assumes that such a means was a prori possible. Why

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-06 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
Bruno, I believe that you are unfair to Jeffery Gray. As I have mentioned, his conclusion was that the modern science (here as accepted by a majority of scientists) cannot explain conscious phenomena. Hence, in a way he was ready to reconsider the accepted scientific framework. The

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-06 Thread meekerdb
On 4/6/2012 9:26 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Bruno, I believe that you are unfair to Jeffery Gray. As I have mentioned, his conclusion was that the modern science (here as accepted by a majority of scientists) cannot explain conscious phenomena. Hence, in a way he was ready to reconsider the

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
Evgenii, I believe that you are unfair to Jeffery Gray. As I have mentioned, his conclusion was that the modern science (here as accepted by a majority of scientists) cannot explain conscious phenomena. Hence, in a way he was ready to reconsider the accepted scientific framework. I can

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 01:59 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: Since there is no evolutionary advantage to consciousness it must be a side-effect of the sort of

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 01:43 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: The term late error detection as such could be employed without consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning that I will try briefly describe below. Jeffrey

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-05 Thread meekerdb
On 4/4/2012 11:58 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The term late error detection as such could be employed without consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning that I will try briefly describe below. Jeffrey Gray in his book speaks about conscious experience, that is, exactly

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-05 Thread meekerdb
On 4/5/2012 9:41 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.04.2012 01:43 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: The term late error detection as such could be employed without consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning that

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread David Nyman
On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: (a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness is just a side-effect of intelligent behaviour; (b) It is possible to make a philosophical zombie but the mechanism for intelligent behaviour that nature chanced

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 20:07 meekerdb said the following: On 4/4/2012 11:58 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The term late error detection as such could be employed without consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning that I will try briefly describe below. Jeffrey Gray in his book

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 20:10 meekerdb said the following: On 4/5/2012 9:41 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.04.2012 01:43 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: The term late error detection as such could be employed without consciousness indeed.

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 20:39 David Nyman said the following: On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: (a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness is just a side-effect of intelligent behaviour; (b) It is possible to make a philosophical zombie but the

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread meekerdb
On 4/5/2012 11:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.04.2012 20:39 David Nyman said the following: On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: (a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness is just a side-effect of intelligent behaviour; (b) It is possible

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread David Nyman
On 5 April 2012 19:56, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: Yet, this does not change his hypothesis about why consciousness display could be advantageous for evolution. We do not know what it is, but if is there, it certainly can help to organize servomechanisms in the body. Sure, if it is

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-05 Thread meekerdb
On 4/5/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Display to whom? the homunculus? No, he creates an interesting scheme to escape the homunculus: p. 110. “(1) the unconscious brain constructs a display in a medium, that of conscious perception, fundamentally different from its usual medium of

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread meekerdb
On 4/5/2012 12:39 PM, David Nyman wrote: I confess this smells to me like the wrong sort of theory. On the other hand, if comp is true the story can be somewhat more subtle. Comp + consciousness (the internal view of arithmetical truth) implies an infinity of possible histories, in which

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 21:38 meekerdb said the following: On 4/5/2012 11:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.04.2012 20:39 David Nyman said the following: On 5 April 2012 17:37, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: (a) It is impossible to make a philosophical zombie as consciousness is just a

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 21:39 David Nyman said the following: On 5 April 2012 19:56, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: Yet, this does not change his hypothesis about why consciousness display could be advantageous for evolution. We do not know what it is, but if is there, it certainly can help to

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-05 Thread David Nyman
On 5 April 2012 20:58, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Comp + consciousness (the internal view of arithmetical truth) implies an infinity of possible histories, in which natural selection, of features advantageous to macroscopic entities inhabiting a macroscopic environment, is a

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.04.2012 21:44 meekerdb said the following: On 4/5/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Display to whom? the homunculus? No, he creates an interesting scheme to escape the homunculus: p. 110. “(1) the unconscious brain constructs a display in a medium, that of conscious perception,

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 3, 3:56 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote: From blindsight, synesthesia, and

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 4, 3:31 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: It is not the fact that matter detects and responds to itself that is in question, it is the presentation of an interior realism which cannot be explained in a mechanistic context.

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Apr 2012, at 19:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 4, 3:31 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: It is not the fact that matter detects and responds to itself that is in question, it is the presentation of an interior realism

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry: Late error detection

2012-04-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 4, 2:58 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: The term late error detection as such could be employed without consciousness indeed. Yet, Jeffrey Gray gives it some special meaning that I will try briefly describe below. Jeffrey Gray in his book speaks about conscious experience,

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: Since there is no evolutionary advantage to consciousness it must be a side-effect of the sort of behaviour that conscious organisms display. Otherwise, why did

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 4, 3:01 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 04 Apr 2012, at 19:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 4, 3:31 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: It is not the fact that matter detects and responds to itself that is in

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-03 Thread 1Z
On Apr 3, 3:20 am, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 2, 8:06 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Apr 2012, at 02:06, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually represent for us, so

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 2, 11:29 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/2/2012 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same parts of the brain for cogitation as are used for perception.  That would be the kind of thing that evolution would

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-03 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote: From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually represent for us,

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-03 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 03.04.2012 05:29 meekerdb said the following: On 4/2/2012 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 2, 9:02 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same parts of the brain for cogitation as are used for perception. That would be

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 3, 3:56 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 03.04.2012 02:06 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com   wrote:  From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular qualia are

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-02 Thread William R. Buckley
Craig: Please explain a little further what you mean by *accomplished through presentation* and in particular, what you mean by presentation. Your point number 5 fits clearly within the purview of semiotics. wrb On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: 1.

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
Hi William, On Apr 2, 1:02 pm, William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com wrote: Craig: Please explain a little further what you mean by *accomplished through presentation* and in particular, what you mean by presentation. What I mean by that is that to make something seem like something

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually represent for us, so it seems impossible to justify qualia on a functionalist

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-02 Thread meekerdb
On 4/2/2012 5:06 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote: From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually represent for us, so it seems

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 2, 8:06 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: From blindsight, synesthesia, and anosognosia we know that particular qualia are not inevitably associated with the conditions they usually represent

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Apr 2, 9:02 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same parts of the brain for cogitation as are used for perception.  That would be the kind of thing that evolution would do, jury rigged but efficient. I like what I've

Re: Primitive Awareness and Symmetry

2012-04-02 Thread meekerdb
On 4/2/2012 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Apr 2, 9:02 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: I like Julian Jaynes idea that it is a side-effect of using the same parts of the brain for cogitation as are used for perception. That would be the kind of thing that evolution would do, jury