Re: [lace] pins for wire lace

[Clay Blackwell]

I have several boxes, and I am fairly certain I hit them at my local quilt shop!

Clay

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 25, 2017, at 4:12 PM,   
> wrote:
> 
> Quick update--I have asked a friend in the quilting/notions supply business 
> about the Bohin #4 30x0.85 pins that Lauran recommended to see if she can get 
> them.  If anyone is interested, please contact me off list.  Sincerely, Susan 
> Hottle 

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[lace] pins for wire lace

[hottleco]

Quick update--I have asked a friend in the quilting/notions supply business 
about the Bohin #4 30x0.85 pins that Lauran recommended to see if she can get 
them.  If anyone is interested, please contact me off list.  Sincerely, Susan 
Hottle USA  

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Re: [lace] spanish lace pins

[David C COLLYER]

Linda,


When working point ground the "Ulrike" way, we are advised to use fat
pins for honeycomb and picots and thin pins for the rest. Different heads
would be nice, so I would know which is which during the work, and
especially while sorting the pins afterwards.


While I don't follow all Ulrike's ideas religiously, I do use a 
thicker pin for starting the work and also all round the edge for 
picots. That way there's no real hassle in sorting them at the end.
The bigger pins for the starting line make such a difference in fine 
work when it comes to joining the lace after many months of work.

David in Ballarat, AUS

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[lace] Pins

[Laurie Waters]

Don't forget Adam Smith's famous description of pin making (from "The Wealth
of Nations", 1776, when he is talking about division of labor:

 

To take an example, therefore, from a very trifling manufacture; but one in
which the division of labour has been very often taken notice of, the trade
of the pin-maker; a workman not educated to this business (which the
division of labour has rendered a distinct trade), nor acquainted with the
use of the machinery employed in it (to the invention of which the same
division of labour has probably given occasion), could scarce, perhaps, with
his utmost industry, make one pin in a day, and certainly could not make
twenty. But in the way in which this business is now carried on, not only
the whole work is a peculiar trade, but it is divided into a number of
branches, of which the greater part are likewise peculiar trades. One man
draws out the wire, another straights it, a third cuts it, a fourth points
it, a fifth grinds it at the top for receiving, the head; to make the head
requires two or three distinct operations; to put it on is a peculiar
business, to whiten the pins is another; it is even a trade by itself to put
them into the paper; and the important business of making a pin is, in this
manner, divided into about eighteen distinct operations, which, in some
manufactories, are all performed by distinct hands, though in others the
same man will sometimes perform two or three of them. I have seen a small
manufactory of this kind where ten men only were employed, and where some of
them consequently performed two or three distinct operations. But though
they were very poor, and therefore but indifferently accommodated with the
necessary machinery, they could, when they exerted themselves, make among
them about twelve pounds of pins in a day. There are in a pound upwards of
four thousand pins of a middling size. Those ten persons, therefore, could
make among them upwards of forty-eight thousand pins in a day. Each person,
therefore, making a tenth part of forty-eight thousand pins, might be
considered as making four thousand eight hundred pins in a day. But if they
had all wrought separately and independently, and without any of them having
been educated to this peculiar business, they certainly could not each of
them have made twenty, perhaps not one pin in a day; that is, certainly, not
the two hundred and fortieth, perhaps not the four thousand eight hundredth
part of what they are at present capable of performing, in consequence of a
proper division and combination of their different operations.

___

Laurie Waters

505-412-2873

lswaters...@comcast.net, lacen...@gmail.com

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Re: [lace] spanish lace pins

[Beth Marshall]

Might not work in an area of honeycomb with closely-packed pinholes, but I 
usually use glass-headed pins for picots
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [lace] spanish lace pins

[Linda Kukolich]

When working point ground the "Ulrike" way, we are advised to use fat
pins for honeycomb and picots and thin pins for the rest. Different heads
would be nice, so I would know which is which during the work, and
especially while sorting the pins afterwards.
It doesn't help me follow, though. With dense work, where you might want
the help, you can't tell from the pin tops exactly where the bottoms are.
I bet it was pretty as copy by someone who hasn't made lace.

Linda from Lexington, Mass, where it is lovely and I'm in the subway
instead

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Re: [lace] spanish lace pins

[Vivienne Walton]

It makes me think of when I did demonstrations with my lace. People would be 
stood looking and I would hear some says " she knows what to by the codes on 
the bobbins" I would have had to have a mind like a computer . I then spangled 
all my bobbins in green but it didn't help! Vivienne 

> On 16 Jun 2016, at 11:20, ELIZABETH PASS <elizabeth.p...@tesco.net> wrote:
> 
> Sorry about the gobbledegook!  I'll never understand this e-mail program.
> 
> What I sent and what I received were totally diferent.
> 
> While searching the internet for Spanish lace bobbins I came across a website 
> selling pins.  Here's their description.
> 
> Spanish lace pins.
> These short redheads come all the way from the oldest pin factory in Spain. 
> Traditional lace making pins that were originally colour coded for following 
> a pattern but we like them just in flame red!  0.59mm X 26mm (approx 200 pins)
> 
> Has anyone heard of coloured coded pins for following a pattern?
> 
> Liz Pass
> in Poole, Dorset
> overcast sky but not cold
> 
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[lace] spanish lace pins

[ELIZABETH PASS]

Sorry about the gobbledegook!  I'll never understand this e-mail program.

What I sent and what I received were totally diferent.

While searching the internet for Spanish lace bobbins I came across a website 
selling pins.  Here's their description.

Spanish lace pins.
These short redheads come all the way from the oldest pin factory in Spain. 
Traditional lace making pins that were originally colour coded for following a 
pattern but we like them just in flame red!  0.59mm X 26mm (approx 200 pins)

Has anyone heard of coloured coded pins for following a pattern?

Liz Pass
in Poole, Dorset
overcast sky but not cold

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[lace] spanish lace pins

[ELIZABETH PASS]

While searching the internet for Spanish lace bobbins I came across a website 
selling pins.  Here's their description.


 
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Spanish Lace Pins 

These short redheads come all the way from the
oldest pin factory in Spain.

Traditional lace making pins that were originally
colour coded for following a pattern but we like them just in flame red! 0.59mm
x 26mm (approx 200 pins) 



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Has anyone heard of this?

Liz Pass
in Poole - overcast but not cold.

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[lace] Pins

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Brian

I have just reached your list of pins.  When I updated my dictionary in 1996 I
asked Arachnids if there were any correction or omissions that needed
addressing, Obviously you missed it.  All the more reason for you to make a
good job of this one.

I had one reply to my request, very unexpected. Aurelia Loveman offered to
proofread it for me and even offered ‘to put money in a charity of my choice
for the privilege’.  It seemed to be too good to be true, but it was true
and her support kept me going. Her caustic comments when I made a mistake,
even a double comma, used to make me laugh so much I could not type. We cannot
repay help like this to the giver, but we can take out turn helping others.

You have all my support, but not an antique divider. I only  have new ones

Alex

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[lace] Pins... pretty well sorted! but...

[Brian Lemin]

Hi Arachnids (of the kindest types!)

 

Thank you for all your help, references and "especially" for being reminded
that I wrote an article on Arizona Webdocs about Pins and Lace Making.  (
https://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/webdocs.html.. You will need to
scroll down quite way to get to my list of articles)

 

I have all the text that I need in that article (it is really good. I can't
believe I wrote it!! :)I told you I was falling to bits!  Grrr)

 

I still lack illustrations for the "functionally named" pins if you can
help.

 

I have managed to illustrate  all of Freemans pins which is very helpful. 

 

Anyway if you can help with any pics that will be good.. but I am now
pressing on with the job and will review what I have when I have been
through the first draft of the Dictionary.

 

You are really good friends. Thank you

 

Brian

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Re: [lace] Pins in books

[Louise]

Dear Brian

There are a couple of pictures in Gertrude Whiting's old time tools and toys of 
needlework (Dover 1971)  the Venetian ones are glass headed some with spherical 
heads and others shaped as animals and birds p143 

On page 145 are East Midlands pins described as King pins, Bugles or Limicks

I can send you a scan if you wish

Best wishes

Louise

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[lace] Pins

[Kathleen Harris]

I was sitting at my lace pillow, moving pins from the back of my lace to my 
pincushion, when I started wondering. How long do other lacemakers leave the 
pins in their work? When making Torchon or Flanders lace,  I leave the pins 
round the edge, and push them right down. I start to remove pins from the back 
of the lace after working 1.5 - 2 inches. With finer or non-.geometric lace I 
leave them in longer, and try to judge where I think the threads might pull, so 
that I can guard against this. What do you all do?

Best wishes 
Kathleen
In sunny Berkshire, UK.

Sent from my iPad

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Re: [lace] Pins

[Malvary Cole]

Kathleen wrote The pin question isn't the sort of thing that is 
taught - except that I was told always to leave pins in for 24 hours, to 
allow the thread toset in place.


I would make a couple of points - this is a question which crops up from 
time to time and usually generates lots of response.


First of all if working on a length of lace on a roller pillow (and less so 
on a block pillow depending on the size of both the block and the lace), 
pins do not stay in the lace for 24 hours, probably an hour or two if you 
are sitting at a long session of lacemaking.  Pins get taken from the back 
and put in at the front.


Secondly - lace isn't jelly, it doesn't need to set.

Thirdly - I agree that if I'm making a bookmark or motif I leave the pairs 
in round the edges - lace does shrink back a bit when the pins are taken 
out, so it makes more sense to take out the edges at the same time.


Malvary in Ottawa, Canada where we have heat warnings for the weekend - high 
temperatures, but even higher humidity. 


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Re: [lace] Pins

[Kathleen Harris]

Hi Sue, 
I don't belong to a class or group, so I have developed my own way of working 
over the years. I was curious about how other lacemakers worked. The pin 
question isn't the sort of thing that is taught - except that I was told always 
to leave pins in for 24 hours, to allow the thread toset in place. I have 
been persuaded to teach a friend to make lace, much against my better 
judgement! But she is an accomplished crafts woman in other fields, and is 
doing well. I have realised that this is the sort of thing that I must remember 
to tell her, and not just how to work the stitches!
Best wishes
Kathleen

Sent from my iPad

 On 18 Jul 2015, at 11:34, su...@talktalk.net wrote:
 
 
 I do the same as you Kathleen,
 Sue T in sunny Dorset UK
 
 www.hurwitzend.co.uk
 
 
 I was sitting at my lace pillow, moving pins from the back of my lace to my 
 pincushion, when I started wondering. How long do other lacemakers leave the 
 pins in their work? When making Torchon or Flanders lace,  I leave the pins 
 round the edge, and push them right down. I start to remove pins from the 
 back of the lace after working 1.5 - 2 inches. With finer or non-.geometric 
 lace I leave them in longer, and try to judge where I think the threads might 
 pull, so that I can guard against this. What do you all do?
 
 Best wishes
 Kathleen
 In sunny Berkshire, UK.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 

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[lace] Pins

[lacel...@frontier.com]

As a beginner, I was told to leave the pins in overnight.  I think this was
a general rule to cover the chance that the thread being used took longer to
conform than usual.  I have seen a bookmark that had the last inch curled
when the rest of it lay flat.  I contributed this to the final pins being
removed immediately.  I may or may not have been correct.
In my experience, a good thread conforms to shape very fast.  Working a
narrow edging on a roller pillow has the lace falling free of the pin area in
2-3 hours.  I never saw any difference between those sections and the ones
that stayed pinned for weeks. 

To support this fast-conforming idea is the rule I was told about making
leaves.  If I make a leaf and it's bad so I take it out, use a different
worker thread on the second try.  The incorrect bends put in the worker
thread on the first try are still in the fiber memories.  Use a new worker
that has not been 'bent'.  That first leaf was shaped for only a few minutes
yet that was long enough to make that thread difficult to re-shape.

Conversely, when I end a bookmark with a tail of the threads, I want the
threads to lie straight.  They have been wrapped on bobbins for an unknown
length of time and will curl if cut off.  I unwind  them for 6-8 inches,
pull them straight, dampen them, and pin them down firmly.  Then let them
stay there at least overnight.  This is forcibly removing the 'curl' set into
the threads by being wound on the bobbins so I give them plenty of time to be
re-educated.
So --- my conclusion is that it depends on the thread.  That's hard to
explain to a beginner.  I think that's why my first teacher told us to leave
it sit overnight.  It didn't hurt the good thread to sit, and gave a chance
for a poor thread  to conform.  Beginners have a greater chance of using a
thread that's not the best quality.
Alice in Oregon -- where it's very hot this weekend. It's been a very warm
year so far, setting many heat records.

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Re: [lace] Pins

[Kathleen Harris]

I agree that you cannot always leave the pins in if working a narrow edging on 
a roller pillow. For that reason, I changed to a block pillow. But I do think 
that thread sets in its position in lace. If you come to your lace one morning, 
and find that you made a mistake the previous day, and take it back to that 
mistake, you will find that the threads have developed a kink round the pins, 
and have set into that place.  They will soon take up their new position, 
however. 

Whether the appearance of the lace is improved by the pins being left in for 24 
hours, or not, I do not know. But it can do no harm, when it is possible. 

When knitting has to be undone, and the yarn used for something else, it must 
be skeined, damped and hung up, weighted to straighten out the kinks resulting 
from thevpreviousvknitted stitches.

Kathleen

Sent from my iPad

 On 18 Jul 2015, at 14:01, Malvary Cole malva...@sympatico.ca wrote:
 
 Kathleen wrote The pin question isn't the sort of thing that is 
 taught - except that I was told always to leave pins in for 24 hours, to 
 allow the thread toset in place.
 
 I would make a couple of points - this is a question which crops up from time 
 to time and usually generates lots of response.
 
 First of all if working on a length of lace on a roller pillow (and less so 
 on a block pillow depending on the size of both the block and the lace), pins 
 do not stay in the lace for 24 hours, probably an hour or two if you are 
 sitting at a long session of lacemaking.  Pins get taken from the back and 
 put in at the front.
 
 Secondly - lace isn't jelly, it doesn't need to set.
 
 Thirdly - I agree that if I'm making a bookmark or motif I leave the pairs in 
 round the edges - lace does shrink back a bit when the pins are taken out, so 
 it makes more sense to take out the edges at the same time.
 
 Malvary in Ottawa, Canada where we have heat warnings for the weekend - high 
 temperatures, but even higher humidity. 
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Re: [lace] Pins

[Bev Walker]

Hello everyone

Some comments - I usually leave at least an inch-worth of pins in, not
really to let the lace set, but to mind the finished work against, for
example, tensioning too firmly and bunching the lace out of shape. Some
patterns have a particular passive that can be a culprit. If I notice which
one, it pays to intentionally work an anchor stitch with that pair and a
neighbour from time to time, to control matters.
Some patterns require more pins being left in for the above reason if the
ground needs to be kept stable.
On patterns with picots, I leave all the picot pins in place where possible.

When working on an edging either on a roller or on a block pillow, I wrap
the outgoing lace around something to 'mind' it - a small fabric cylinder
is good to have (they are nice lace event favours, too), or a small, smooth
flat piece of wood, in French, called a plioir. I wrap the edging lace
specifically to set it, intending that the width at the beginning is the
same as at the end. On a block pillow, I might pin the finished lace at a
few places on a posterior block, gently layering it on top of itself as the
work progresses.

-- 
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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RE: [lace] pins

[Noelene Lafferty]

Wow, Alex, what type of lace are you using such fine pins on?

Noelene in Cooma

nlaffe...@ozemail.com.au

I have been using the Watkins  Doncaster stainless steel pins no.0. They
are the finest I have used and, although they are very long I have had no
trouble with them bending as they are very sharp and pass into the pillow
easily.  I also purchased nos. 00 and 000, two sizes finer. I will let you
know how I get on with them.

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Re: [lace] pins

[Clay Blackwell]

I also use those fine insect pins.  I make Binche lace, and when the long and 
very fine pins went out of production several years ago, I bought every 
(expensive!) vial of them that I could find.  So I still have a good supply, 
and guard them like Gollum my preciou)!

I discovered the insect pins were the same size, but have a plastic blob on the 
top.  I prefer the tiny metal heads.  So, to help stretch out my supply of 
Binche pins, I paint the tops of the insect pins with a dab of bright red nail 
polish.  I use these strictly for support (temporary) pins in my work.  I leave 
them in only until I have established the tension I want and have gone a few 
rows down.  Then the temporary pins, which are easily distinguished, are 
removed.

But, in all honesty, if you don't have access to the steel pins, these insect 
pins are a good choice!  Certainly better than using a pin that is too big or 
too short, and they are mot at all expensive if you purchase them from a 
scientific source that sells pins to bug collectors!

Clay
 
Sent from my iPad

 On Mar 25, 2014, at 5:13 AM, Noelene Lafferty nlaffe...@ozemail.com.au 
 wrote:
 
 Wow, Alex, what type of lace are you using such fine pins on?
 
 Noelene in Cooma
 
 Alex wrote
 I have been using the Watkins  Doncaster stainless steel pins no.0. They
 are the finest I have used and, although they are very long I have had no
 trouble with them bending as they are very sharp and pass into the pillow
 easily.  

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Re: [lace] pins

[Ilske Thomsen]

With my Chantilly as well as Binche laces with the Danish silk I used those 
insect pins too. But they weren't easy to find and expensive too.
At the beginning they aren't easy to handle.

Ilske

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RE: [lace] pins

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Nolene

I’m using size 0 pins for Floral Bucks using 100/2 Egyptian cotton. I will
be using the 00 pins with 190/2 Egyptian cotton and finer. I bought the 000
pins to see what they are like to use – but I think they will be too fine;
they are like hairs.

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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[lace] pins

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Arachnids

I have been using the Watkins  Doncaster stainless steel pins no.0. They are
the finest I have used and, although they are very long I have had no trouble
with them bending as they are very sharp and pass into the pillow easily.  I
also purchased nos. 00 and 000, two sizes finer. I will let you know how I get
on with them.

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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[lace] brass lace pins a Waulking song‏

[Jean Nathan]

Now here's dedication for you. I lent my micrometer to Eve Morton, who measured 
the diameters of all her mixed up pins to get them sorted in sizes again.

Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK 

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[lace] brass lace pins a Waulking song‏‏

[Jean Nathan]

Jeanette wrote: 
I wish I had you for a friend then I could also sort my pins How long
did it take her to sort the pins?

Don't know. She'd have to tell you that, but I think she gave me the micrometer 
back at the following week's lacemaking group.

Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK 
  

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[lace] brass lace pins new Bulletin

[hottleco]

Hello All!  Following advice from Adele  Bev, I measured my pins as 26x.6.  
They are still a mystery as I don't know what they are used for.  They were in 
an orphan box of mixed supplies including an inexpensive foam Honiton pillow  
many sizes of white thread but my friend wasn't learning Honiton lace.  In any 
event, I'm no help to Devon's pin search but I have learned a lot!  Oh my, the 
new Bulletin is a treat.  The front cover piece by Dawn Howell is an 
inspiration.  What a painterly use of colors to create a scenic vista!  
Congratulations to Dawn  the other winners:  Janice Blair, Elizabeth Ligeti  
Julia Brock.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Erie, PA USA cheering from the less 
experienced peanut gallery   

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Re: [lace] brass lace pins new Bulletin

[Sue Duckles]

Mine are that size and they're used for torchon  and bedfordshire

Granny Sue in a sunny East Yorkshire
On 30 Oct 2013, at 14:12, hottl...@neo.rr.com hottl...@neo.rr.com wrote:

 Hello All!  Following advice from Adele  Bev, I measured my pins as 26x.6.

My Tatty Blog http://pigminitatty.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: [lace] brass lace pins new Bulletin

[hottleco]

Thanks Sue!  You  other Arachne members are going to get me organized in spite 
of myself.  Love your tatting blog--just the right blend of chat  info!  Have 
sent a link to tatty friends who haven't yet taken the plunge on Arachne.  
Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Erie, PA USA
  
 Sue Duckles s...@duckles.co.uk wrote: 
Mine are that size and they're used for torchon  and bedfordshire
My Tatty Blog http://pigminitatty.blogspot.co.uk/
 

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[lace] brass lace pins a Waulking song

[hottleco]

Hello All!  After looking in Arachne Archives  consulting Google without 
results, I thought I would ask:  how would I know what size brass pins I own?  
There was a reference to Adele's measuring system on a 2006 Tonder post, but I 
didn't find a follow up.  After Devon's pin question, I dug out the ones that I 
got from a friend who used to live in England.  They are not marked  are a 
skosh over 1 long but don't seem fine enough to be 29mm.  My reason for 
asking--is there a photo index that may be used for comparison like there is 
for embroidery needles?  My needle index allows the user to place the anonymous 
needle on photos  find the size.  I'm will to donate the pins if they fit the 
bill.  On Sat. 10/26, Susan Elliott posted about her trip to the Hebrides, 
including a short video showing women singing a gaelic (??) song as they worked 
the wool cloth to soften it.  Very interesting  wasn't there a discussion of 
lacemaking songs earlier this year?  Sincerely, Susan Hottl!
 e, Erie, PA USA

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Re: [lace] brass lace pins a Waulking song

[Bev Walker]

Susan and everyone

As I've often wondered the same about a box or two of pins that have lost
their label...A quick google of 'pin size chart' produced this web page:
http://www.americanpin.com/pins.html

Dritz, Prim and other pin brands should have info on their pages as well?

29 mm is the length, equivalent 1.14 inch... to measure diameter you'd have
to have a micrometer I guess!

On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 10:48 AM, hottl...@neo.rr.com wrote:

 Hello All!  After looking in Arachne Archives  consulting Google without
 results, I thought I would ask:  how would I know what size brass pins I
 own?  There was a reference to Adele's measuring system on a 2006 Tonder
 post, but I didn't find a follow up.  After Devon's pin question, I dug out
 the ones that I got from a friend who used to live in England.  They are
 not marked  are a skosh over 1 long but don't seem fine enough to be
 29mm.


-- 
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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Re: [lace] brass lace pins a Waulking song

[hottleco]

Thank you Bev--you are the Superior Googler!  I was looking for pin index  
got something else entirely.  American pin makes bank pins like we used in 
Kim's wire lace class.  AP seems to have fine silk pins  no chart/index but 
will follow up even without a micrometer.  LOL  Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Erie, 
PA 

 Bev Walker walker.b...@gmail.com wrote: 
A quick google of 'pin size chart' produced this web page:
 http://www.americanpin.com/pins.html
 
 Dritz, Prim and other pin brands should have info on their pages as well?
 
 29 mm is the length, equivalent 1.14 inch... to measure diameter you'd have
 to have a micrometer I guess!

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Re: [lace] brass lace pins a Waulking song

[Adele Shaak]

 29 mm is the length, equivalent 1.14 inch... to measure diameter you'd have
 to have a micrometer I guess!

It's easier to measure diameter if you put about 10 pins side by side in a
row. (you alternate where the heads go). Then you can measure and divide by
10. So if your row of 10 pins is 5.5 mm across, then each pin is .55 mm in
diameter.

The finest lace pins are about .40 mm diameter. These are used when making
very fine laces, but they do bend very easily. For that reason I prefer using
.50 - .55 mm diameter pins, or even larger ones if I'm making something in
coarse thread.


Adele
West Vancouver, BC

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Re: [lace] brass lace pins a Waulking song

[hottleco]

Thanks for your advice Adele!  Will give it a try.  Sincerely, Susan

 Adele Shaak ash...@shaw.ca wrote: 
  29 mm is the length, equivalent 1.14 inch... to measure diameter you'd have
  to have a micrometer I guess!
 
 It's easier to measure diameter if you put about 10 pins side by side in a 
 row. (you alternate where the heads go). Then you can measure and divide by 
 10. So if your row of 10 pins is 5.5 mm across, then each pin is .55 mm in 
 diameter.
 
 The finest lace pins are about .40 mm diameter. These are used when making 
 very fine laces, but they do bend very easily. For that reason I prefer using 
 .50 - .55 mm diameter pins, or even larger ones if I'm making something in 
 coarse thread.
 
 
 Adele
 West Vancouver, BC
 (west coast of Canada)

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[lace] pins and thorns

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Linda

To get this tale by the tail, (sorry,
 couldn't resist that), we first need to find the earliest mentions of
 it, then we can understand the context, and the exact way in which the
 words were used.  I still think there may be more to this than meets the
 eye . . .

Just my thoughts, I was hoping that some of the Arachne members would have
come across something.  We are getting information and proof that thorns can
be used for coarse lace, but are they in response to the 'old wives tale'
giving the idea?

I am finding the responses most interesting, but still no proof that the very
fine lace could have been made this way.

Thank you everyone

Alex

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[lace] pins and thorns

[Jane Partridge]

I wonder if it wasn't an old wives' tale as such, but that someone saw a 
lacemaker using thorns or bones (BTW, having been stabbed by a sea 
bass bone I could see those being used!) and commented on it, this then 
being translated in gossip circles to lacemakers use bones/thorns 
instead of pins in much the same way that when needs must, we improvise 
with whatever is to hand... such as the occasion when a well known 
lacemaker was demonstrating at a major needlecraft fair (Steph P will 
remember!!!) using an empty biro as a bobbin... I wonder how many people 
went home from that show with the idea that lacemakers use biros for 
bobbins (when they haven't got a spare bobbin to hand)?


In message F65FDC0A69AE41B898FB524635C80C8E@salex, Alex Stillwell 
alexstillw...@talktalk.net writes

To get this tale by the tail, (sorry,

couldn't resist that), we first need to find the earliest mentions of
it, then we can understand the context, and the exact way in which the
words were used.  I still think there may be more to this than meets the
eye . . .


Just my thoughts, I was hoping that some of the Arachne members would have
come across something.  We are getting information and proof that thorns can
be used for coarse lace, but are they in response to the 'old wives tale'
giving the idea?

--
Jane Partridge

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Re: [lace] pins and thorns

[Linda Walton]

On 21/05/2011 22:57, Alex Stillwell wrote:
[snip]

I think we have had plenty of evidence that
thorns have been used as subsitutes for pins

[snip]

Sorry - I think I must have missed a bit among all these fascinating 
messages:  so what was the original evidence for the kinds of things 
used where we would use metal pins?  Where are they documented, please?


Linda Walton,
(in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.,
  -  hiding from yet another day of strong winds).

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Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Anna

You make a valid point.  This is why I like Arachne, we can pool our ideas 
and develop them.


Happy lacemaking

Alex



- Original Message - 
From: Anna Binnie l...@binnie.id.au

To: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net
Cc: lace@arachne.com
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers


The point is well made. Pins have been around since the bronze age so the 
question begs to be asked why use thorns, fish  bones etc when you have 
access to pins. Now since lace making as we know it came into being around 
the 15th century (please correct me if I'm a bit early here), but pins of 
every variety were available at this time. I should point out that at this 
time they were relatively expensive since reference to pins is made in 
wills and dowries (only expensive items are so enumerated). BUT if you 
consider that some forms of early lace do not require many pins the 
problem is solved. By the time that the point laces came along, some 
experienced lace makers were NOT using pins on the ground BUT on the 
'pattern part only, so again a multitude of pins was not required. By the 
time lace makers were using hundreds or even thousands of pins the price 
of pins had dropped significantly.


Anna


On 21/05/11 7:30 AM, Alex Stillwell wrote:

Dear Arachnids

These ideas about using thorns and fish bones have been around for a long
time. Has anyone actually tried using thorns or fishbones to make lace? I 
mean

the very fine lace made at the time the thorns were supposed to have been
used. Did they work or not?

Regarding the type of thorn, they would have to be from plants found in 
the
hedgerowa at the time, not exotic ones like cacti. I'm not sure if 
pyrocantha

would have been found. Does anyone know?

There are many old wives tales around, but you have to try them to prove 
their

validity and not blindly perpetuate them. I have debunked several.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Alex

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Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Robin

An interesting observation, thank you for letting us know. Does anyone have 
a photo of these lacemakers? and did the Biologist know what bobbin lace is 
or did she see some other form of lace being made using thorns as pins? 
Also, as you say, the lace was coarse, not made with the very fine linen 
used in 17th century. It's my science background that always asks for proof.


Happy lacemaking



- Original Message - 
From: robinl...@socal.rr.com

To: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net; lace@arachne.com
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers



 Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net wrote:
These ideas about using thorns and fish bones have been around for a long 
time. Has anyone actually tried using thorns or fishbones to make lace? I 
mean the very fine lace made at the time the thorns were supposed to have 
been used. Did they work or not?-


Still not directly to your question, Alex, but I remember talking to a 
Brazilian biologist.  She was not a lacemaker, but she told me about 
seeing women in a certain part of Brazil that has a bobbin lace tradition. 
We found pictures of them using thorn pins.  It was coarse lace (not the 
stuff made with 240 cotton in early Europe), about like the modern Chinese 
designs in stores these days.


Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
robinl...@socal.rr.com




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[lace] pins and thorns

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Bev

This article is producing some interestin observations. As I suggested, using
thorns may only be folk lore and your observation would support that theory.
The cactus thorns came up in another reply when I asked if anyone had used
thorns for making lace.  but I also doubt if they would have been readily
available in Europe in the 17th century.

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[The Lace Bee]

Pins have been around for a very long time but they have never been a cheap
item to purchase. 
 
A phrase that you may have come across is 'pin money' used these days to
describe a job that pays badly but in the Regency / Victorian period 'pin
money' was what was often left to someone to buy household essentials such as
pins.
 
Pins during the English Civil War period and the Restoration (mid to late
1600s) were often lengths of brass with a burr on the top to create the head
as even this extra bit cost more money.
 
I'm sure there are some references to pins and their costs in Romanze of the
Lace Pillow by Thomas Wright.
 
Pins as we know it are a complex thing to manufacture and this is why with the
commercial need for them dropping we have seen the gradual loss of certain
types of pin manufacture and pin manufacturers.
 
When I started making lace I was able to buy 3 bodkin pins which I used to
buy in packets of 10 from Hornsbys for about 2 or 3 pounds.  I would take any
large beads that I had and glue them just below the head to make divider
pins. 
 
About 10 years ago these pins became really rare and almost unobtainable after
the man manufacturer in the UK stopped making them because the market for them
had become very, very small and it was not commercial viable to make them. 
When I've ask bobbin makers what they are now using for the pin part of their
dividers that they turn, most are using thick needles.  One even told me that
they used to cut off the top of the pins in order to put them into the handles
they made so that needles were a better idea.
 
From a practial point of view, do you guys stop using bent pins?  If I was
looking to replace my brass pins with something else then I would need
something that was continuously available and was straight.
 
Fish bones are not that straight and they are either very flexible (so bendy)
when fresh or easily shatter when dried out.
 
Thorns are normally tappered towards the point which means that they can be
rather thick at one end - for me, this would cause problems if I was working
on very close work then the pins would start to crowd each other.  I think
that I would have problems fitting them all in.
 
L

Kind Regards

Liz Baker

thelace...@btinternet.com

My chronicle of my bobbins can be found at my website:
http://thelacebee.weebly.com/

--- On Sat, 21/5/11, Anna Binnie l...@binnie.id.au wrote:


From: Anna Binnie l...@binnie.id.au
Subject: Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers
To: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net
Cc: lace@arachne.com
Date: Saturday, 21 May, 2011, 1:10


The point is well made. Pins have been around since the bronze age so the
question begs to be asked why use thorns, fish  bones etc when you have access
to pins. Now since lace making as we know it came into being around the 15th
century (please correct me if I'm a bit early here), but pins of every variety
were available at this time. I should point out that at this time they were
relatively expensive since reference to pins is made in wills and dowries
(only expensive items are so enumerated). BUT if you consider that some forms
of early lace do not require many pins the problem is solved. By the time that
the point laces came along, some experienced lace makers were NOT using pins
on the ground BUT on the 'pattern part only, so again a multitude of pins was
not required. By the time lace makers were using hundreds or even thousands of
pins the price of pins had dropped significantly.

Anna

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Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[La]

The Brazilians do use thorns from a tree to use as pins.  They are very sturdy
and quite effective.  After a while, the blunt end tends to get a little mushy
and looks a little like a fuzzy top.  Some use bobbins that have had a nut
stuck onto the end of a thin stick.  I've tried to use this type of set-up and
it's pretty clumsy for me.  However, these ladies have perfected the
technique. They are quite tidy in their work.  
 
Laura Sandison
New Mexico,
USA

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Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[Dmt11home]

In fact, I have often wondered if it wasn't some kind of technical or  
commercial development regarding pins that was responsible for the switch to  
point ground laces from those with Flemish or plaited grounds. Point ground  
laces take less time to make. If you have more pins than time, why not make 
one  ground stitch rather than four?
 
 
In a message dated 5/20/2011 8:11:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
l...@binnie.id.au writes:

By the  time lace makers were using hundreds or even thousands of pins 
the price  of pins had dropped  significantly.

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[lace] pins and thorns

[Alex Stillwell]

Dear Arachnids

Thank you for all the replies. I think we have had plenty of evidence that
thorns have been used as subsitutes for pins and we have had some interesting
comments about pins in general.

I find these discussions are always enlightening.  Long may Aachne last.

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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[lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[Alex Stillwell]

Dear Arachnids

These ideas about using thorns and fish bones have been around for a long
time. Has anyone actually tried using thorns or fishbones to make lace? I mean
the very fine lace made at the time the thorns were supposed to have been
used. Did they work or not?

Regarding the type of thorn, they would have to be from plants found in the
hedgerowa at the time, not exotic ones like cacti. I'm not sure if pyrocantha
would have been found. Does anyone know?

There are many old wives tales around, but you have to try them to prove their
validity and not blindly perpetuate them. I have debunked several.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Alex

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Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[Anna Binnie]

The point is well made. Pins have been around since the bronze age so 
the question begs to be asked why use thorns, fish  bones etc when you 
have access to pins. Now since lace making as we know it came into being 
around the 15th century (please correct me if I'm a bit early here), but 
pins of every variety were available at this time. I should point out 
that at this time they were relatively expensive since reference to pins 
is made in wills and dowries (only expensive items are so enumerated). 
BUT if you consider that some forms of early lace do not require many 
pins the problem is solved. By the time that the point laces came along, 
some experienced lace makers were NOT using pins on the ground BUT on 
the 'pattern part only, so again a multitude of pins was not required. 
By the time lace makers were using hundreds or even thousands of pins 
the price of pins had dropped significantly.


Anna


On 21/05/11 7:30 AM, Alex Stillwell wrote:

Dear Arachnids

These ideas about using thorns and fish bones have been around for a long
time. Has anyone actually tried using thorns or fishbones to make lace? I mean
the very fine lace made at the time the thorns were supposed to have been
used. Did they work or not?

Regarding the type of thorn, they would have to be from plants found in the
hedgerowa at the time, not exotic ones like cacti. I'm not sure if pyrocantha
would have been found. Does anyone know?

There are many old wives tales around, but you have to try them to prove their
validity and not blindly perpetuate them. I have debunked several.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Alex

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Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers

[robinlace]

 Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net wrote: 
These ideas about using thorns and fish bones have been around for a long time. 
Has anyone actually tried using thorns or fishbones to make lace? I mean the 
very fine lace made at the time the thorns were supposed to have been used. Did 
they work or not?-

Still not directly to your question, Alex, but I remember talking to a 
Brazilian biologist.  She was not a lacemaker, but she told me about seeing 
women in a certain part of Brazil that has a bobbin lace tradition.  We found 
pictures of them using thorn pins.  It was coarse lace (not the stuff made with 
240 cotton in early Europe), about like the modern Chinese designs in stores 
these days.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
robinl...@socal.rr.com

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[lace] Pins

[Jean Nathan]

Rebecca wrote:

Does anyone know of a thorn that would work as a pin?

The longest thorn I can think of is on the Pyrocanthus bush, also known as 
Firethorn. Very effective as a boundary hedge to keep out intruders.


Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK

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RE: [lace] Pins

[Diane Z]

In the US the Hawthorne tree has thorns about an inch.  I have one so I see
if I can struggle through the wild roses this weekend and take a look.  I
don't think the tree is in good shape as it has old man's beard moss growing
all over it.  If I get there, I'll clip the thorns.

Diane Z
Lubec, Maine

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
Jean Nathan
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:02 PM
To: Lace
Subject: [lace] Pins

Rebecca wrote:

Does anyone know of a thorn that would work as a pin?

The longest thorn I can think of is on the Pyrocanthus bush, also known as 
Firethorn. Very effective as a boundary hedge to keep out intruders.

Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK

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[lace] Pins etc

[Brian Lemin]

http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/webdocs/lb_2010_15.pdf

I wrote an article with the help of Arachne members way back about pins. It
can be found (hopefully) by clicking on this above link or else the tiny URL
below and scrolling down to it.

The article was more  historic than opinion, but I might have ventured a
little in that direction.

I am sure that poor and isolated lace makers would have utilized any available
substitutes for pins and bobbins.  There quite few examples of bone slivers
being used as pins (not specifically for lace makers)  The anecdotal evidence
for fish bones makes it believable as does the use of thorns.

If we look at our own lives we often make use of substitutes until we can
afford the real thing; I am guessing lace makers did the same.

When that article was being written here was a very detailed history of pins
put out by a Needle and Pin manufacturer, which was really very interesting

Brian and Jean
From Cooranbong. Australia
You can read my bobbin stuff on:
http://tiny.cc/egb85


Here is some of the correspondence we had back then.

I was, in my undergraduate years, a student of Art History.
I still look at paintings, sculptures, and architecture as
lasting documentation of cultural norms that were sometimes
not documented otherwise.  So I look at very old paintings
of lace makers, and I've not come across any which depict
crude knuckle bones being used for bobbins.  But let's
face it...  by the time the painters of the era recognized
lace for the art that it was, the equipment had evolved to a
respectable level.  We  have portraits of lots of wealthy
patrons wearing cutwork and needle laces - but no paintings
of the lower class who produced these masterpieces.
Likewise, we have portraits showing early bobbin lace, but
the means with which it was produced has not been shown in
any work with which I'm familiar.

I'm inclined to join the school of skeptical thought that
argues that if the fish bone were fine enough for the lace
being made, it would not withstand being driven into the
pillow and holding up under tension.  I suspect that a poor
lace maker purchased pins in whatever quantity she could
afford, and then guarded them carefully.  While thread
supplies must be replenished, pins could last a very long
time if carefully used.

Clay

- Original Message -
From: Brian Lemin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 10:10 AM
Subject: [lace] Fish bones


 Your lateral thinking is quite original and worthy of
serious consideration
 until it is disproven.  Like many things in lace history
we are not really
 sure about the truth of the matter.

 At one time I had a pretty full paper on the history of
pins but goodness
 knows where it is now!

 Suffice to say that, yes they were quite expensive, but
the lace was even more
 expensive.  If you could afford the lace you could afford
the pins.

 Brass pins (if I remember correctly) were available at
that time, thus
 reducing the rust problem.

 The whole business of pins, relates mostly to the makers
who, for the most
 part, were not at all well off, but there were periods of
relative prosperity;
 but lets face it, most of them were poor.  So they turned
to cheap
 alternatives.  Fishbones if you lived near the sea and
chicken bone slivers if
 you were in an agricultural community.  Thorns are said to
have been utilized
 too, but the heads of those are rather large to me.

 Couple with this folk history are the chicken/ other
animal bones for
 bobbins.

 As a personal view I tend to accept these tales, but it is
interesting that we
 have excavated quite old bobbins but not bones that are
associated with the
 occupation.  Of course, bones would not necessarily be
considered lace tools
 by the archaeologists! and thus passed over.  I have in
the back of my mind
 that that bones were used initially as bobbins and thus
they developed into
 bobbins, and after that they were used only to supplement
the bobbins on the
 pillow.


 What do other members think?




 Brian and Jean from Cooranbong Australia

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[lace] Pins

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi all, I would like your views. Though I am a supplier this is not
promoting any thing I sell but I think Lace makers need to express an opinion
on.
The people who make many of the pins in the world have been looking for a
long time at the problem of brass pins tarnishing. they tell me they are

I'm not sure but from my experience of pins I think how quickly they  tarnish
may depend on the proportions of the metals in the mix used for brass pins. I
have some old Diadem pins given to me by an elderly lacemaker who had
purchased them in 1942. They have the normal tarnish but show no corrosion,
whereas I have other pins stored and used under the same conditions that were
showing corrosion within 3 years and have since been thrown out. One supplier
tried to tell me the reason for my corrosion was salt in the air and, yes, I
live 15 miles from the sea. However my friends in Houston and Dallas do not,
their environment is vastly different but had the same problems.

Hope this helps. Arachne has members with such a wide variety of skills I am
sure we should be able to find an answer between us. Another point (sorry for
the pun), please will you ask the manufacturer to make the 'points' longer so
that the pins enter more easily. I find many of the currently available pins
have short points and need more pressure to force them through the pillow
fabric.

Let us know the outcome. I'm sure there must be an answer somewhere.

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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[lace] pins

[Alex Stillwell]

Vivienne,
it's a luxurious idea, but I find my brass pins, many of which are about 15
years old and used over and over, have not tarnished at all.

Interesting to read that you have pins that have never corroded too. Perhaps
the manufacturer will look at the quality of the brass used to make the pins.
Good quality is not always the answer. I believe that poor quality pewter used
for inlay in bobbins lasts longer than the better quality metal.  Good quality
pewter corrodes quicker when in contact with wood.

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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Re: [lace] pins

[Sue Babbs]

My brass pins don't seem to have tarnished (or certainly not enough to 
bother me). I also have enough pins to keep me in my bent pins for many 
years, so I would not be interested in these gold-plated pins.


I stock up with pins for any pupils I have when I visit the UK, as I don't 
find that the pins I buy there come with blunt ends, which I find happens 
with pins bought in regular sewing supplies shops in the USA.


Sue

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RE: [lace] pins

[Sue]

I had a diagram on a spare piece of styrafoam that I followed with berry
pins when I first started to learn Bucks Point I remember several lacemakers
coming over to me at a lace day to see what I was doing with the berry pins.
It was a complete success and have taught a couple of others Buck Point
using this same method and they all were very quick in picking it up .

Sue M Harvey
Norfolk UK

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[lace] pins

[Lorelei Halley]

Devon and Alice
Your ideas about the ghost pillow or sticking pins into the diagram sounds
like a good one.  I should try that and maybe I won't get lost so often.  I
always keep the diagram just next to me on my worktable, but my eye doesn't
always find the correct place.

I just turned the corner and took all the pins out and repinned it (I'm using
a roller pillow) and worked two rows.  This whole side and half of the next
and I'm done.  Now I'm trying to decide what to work on next.

Lorelei

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[lace] lace (pins) in fiction

[Su Carter]

Likely this is already in the collection--the book has been out for a  
few years--but I've only just gotten around to reading it and now  
that I've recovered, dried my eyes, and picked myself up off the  
floor beside the sofa, I just had to share:



What's the most expensive pin ever made commercially, Stanley? said  
Moist quickly.


It was like pulling a lever. Stanley's expression went from agonized  
grief to scholarly cogitation in an instant.


Commercially? Leaving aside those special pins made for exhibitions  
and trade shows, including the Great Pin of 1899, then probably it is  
the No. 3 Broad-headed 'Chicken' Extra Longs made for the lace-making  
market by the noted pinner Josiah Doldrum, I would say. They were  
hand-drawn and had his trademark silver head with a microscopic  
engraving of a cockerel. It's believed that fewer than a hundred were  
made before his death, sir. According to Hubert Spider's Pin  
Catalogue, examples can fetch between fifty and sixty-five dollars,  
depending on condition. A No. 3 Broad-headed Extra Long would grace  
any true pinhead's collection.


-- Going Postal by Terry Pratchett


Su, recovering from her unexpected overdose of endorphins

Williamsburg, VA

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Re: [lace] lace (pins) in fiction

[bev walker]

T. Pratchett is genius ;)
In one of the Discworld books, there is a fleeting reference to lacemaking -
I think it is a departmental description for one of the Deans at Unseen
University.
There might be other such sightings :)

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Su Carter sucar...@cox.net wrote:


 Commercially? Leaving aside those special pins made for exhibitions and
 trade shows, including the Great Pin of 1899, then probably it is the No. 3
 Broad-headed 'Chicken' Extra Longs made for the lace-making market by the
 noted pinner Josiah Doldrum, I would say. They were hand-drawn and had his
 trademark silver head with a microscopic engraving of a cockerel. It's
 believed that fewer than a hundred were made before his death, sir.
 According to Hubert Spider's Pin Catalogue, examples can fetch between fifty
 and sixty-five dollars, depending on condition. A No. 3 Broad-headed Extra
 Long would grace any true pinhead's collection.

 -- Going Postal by Terry Pratchett


-- 
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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[lace] Re: lace (pins) in fiction

[Tamara P Duvall]

On Aug 30, 2009, at 22:12, Su Carter wrote:

A No. 3 Broad-headed Extra Long would grace any true pinhead's 
collection.


-- Going Postal by Terry Pratchett

Su, recovering from her unexpected overdose of endorphins


To help you recover in a hurry... You owe me for a keyboard (and Mac 
ones don't come cheap) -- wine all over the place. I only gurgled 
through most of  the quotation (including the image of a microscopic 
cockerel on a pin's head) but the true pinhead's collection was just 
too much... Especially in conjunction with a similarly double-edged and 
textile-related term, used (though not by Pratchett, so far as I know)  
in reference to annoyingly stupid people: a pinprick.

--
Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/
Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland)

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Re: [lace] Re: lace pins and finger tips

[Sue]

Well that is two of you suggesting this as a possible cause and although 
I have been using this pricker for several years I have had a new pin 
put in and it is further in than before.  Better for some things in 
preparing patterns but I wonder if the part of the pin in use is thinner 
than before.  It would be a good idea to check this out I think.  Thank 
you for you input:-) 
Sue T Dorset UK


Leonard Bazar wrote:

Another cure, from Mrs Perryman among others, so fine for Honiton, is to make 
sure the needle in your pricker is large enough - I assume you are using a 
pre-pricked pattern.  She recommends a size 8 for the standard 0.55mm pins.  
This does need a properly stuffed pillow if you're using a straw one, but there 
should be no problem with a polystyrene (or styro-whatever) one.  Some 19th 
century parchments have quite large pinholes, so presumably the workers relied 
on the pillows to hold the pins - after all, that's what happens in freehand 
lace!  If you are pricking as you go, it might help to use a pricker with a 
comfortable handle and pre-prick a few holes with it and then place your pins 
as you work.
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



  


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Re: [lace] lace pins and finger tips

[bev walker]

Hi Sue and everyone
If I vary regular-head steel pins with glass headed pins, my right
pushing-in fingertip doesn't get sore. The finest pins I have been
able to find, the Clover silk pins with red or white heads, are even
good for fine Buckspoint. When I used to do Honiton, eventually I
would get the wee pin heads stuck in the fingertip (v. painful), then
I'd have to stop for awhile, or use the left hand (and then stop for
awhile). The adhesive pads were 'ok' (find them in quilters' notions -
on me they leave adhesive goo on the skin), and a leather finger tip
was 'ok' (I thought it too bulky) - but not the same as being able to
push the pin in directly.

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Sue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 things that stick on the end of the finger, can anyone tell me how well they
 work, if they stay put on the finger for an evening without problems like
 catching on threads or whatever.  Maybe its time I searched some out and got
 them ordered. I have tried other things but cant work with them on my
 finger.

-- 
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west
coast of Canada

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Re: [lace] lace pins and finger tips

[Malvary J Cole]

Hi Sue - I used them in Montreal at IOLI when my finger got sore after the 
first session of class.  I found them a little awkward at first, but soon 
got used to them.  Have you tried just using 2-3 layers of micropore 
(readily available at the chemist and useful for other things if it doesn't 
work for lacemaking) to see if that would work for you.


Malvary in Ottawa, Canada 


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Re: [lace] lace pins and finger tips continued

[bev walker]

That would be good.
My solution was (shh, said very quietly) to stop doing Honiton.

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 9:29 AM, C Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 May I suggest you go to the hardware store and pick up the nail punch that
 would serve to sink the very smallest nail heads.  That is what I found for
 my Honiton work.  I use 170/2 threads and the sea of pins can become quite
 compact sometimes.  So while shopping with my husband in the hardware store
 I searched for a solution and that was it.  NO more sore fingers.


 good for fine Buckspoint. When I used to do Honiton, eventually I
 would get the wee pin heads stuck in the fingertip (v. painful), then
 I'd have to stop for awhile, or use the left hand (and then stop for


-- 
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west
coast of Canada

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Re: [lace] lace pins and finger tips

[Joy Beeson]

On 9/22/08 11:50 AM, Sue wrote:


We have spoken about the sticky pad things that stick on
the end of the finger, can anyone tell me how well they
work, if they stay put on the finger for an evening
without problems like catching on threads or whatever.
Maybe its time I searched some out and got them ordered.


I can't tell you how well they work, but if you have a
quilters' shop in town, you don't have to mail-order them.
Some quilters actually do quilt, so patchwork-supply shops
have all sorts of thimble gadgets, including the sticky pads
-- but not including plain ordinary thimbles for seam sewing.

--
Joy Beeson
http://joybeeson.home.comcast.net/
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
west of Fort Wayne, Indiana, U.S.A.
where we are having sunny fall weather.

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Re: [lace] lace pins and finger tips

[Jude]

I wonder if the liquid bandage stuff would work?  I use it 
occasionally (just paint on a few layers and let dry) when I am 
quilting or appliqueing when my finger gets too sore.

Jude in WY

At 02:35 PM 9/22/2008, Joy Beeson wrote:

On 9/22/08 11:50 AM, Sue wrote:


We have spoken about the sticky pad things that stick on
the end of the finger, can anyone tell me how well they
work, if they stay put on the finger for an evening
without problems like catching on threads or whatever.
Maybe its time I searched some out and got them ordered.


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Re: [lace] lace pins and finger tips

[robinlace]

 Sue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
We have spoken about the sticky pad things that stick on the end of the finger, 
can anyone tell me how well they work, if they stay put on the finger for an 
evening without problems like catching on threads or whatever.  


I've tried two types of stick-on thimbles.  One was for quilters and was like 
a circle of plastic.  I hated these--they wouldn't stay one my fingers (I sweat 
a lot).  The other kind I tried was circles of leather and they work great for 
me.  They stay on for hours, can be parked on a piece of plastic or other 
non-porous surface, and then re-used.  They are thick enough and stiff enough 
to prevent pinheads from hurting me at all, even if I didn't pre-prick.

The only other thimble I use is a Nimble Thimble, which is a very thin 
finger-cap of leather with a metal disk embedded over the fingertip.  I can 
even push a needle through heavy stuff with that.  However, I rarely use it for 
lace.  I keep it with my quilting stuff instead.

I never use any other kind of thimble.  They are very effective at stopping the 
pins from hurting my finger, but only because whatever finger I put the thimble 
on, I immediately start using a different finger!  The one that was getting 
sore certainly stops being hurt, but at the expense of another finger.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA

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[lace] Pins and threads.

[Ewa Eskilsson]

Hi all Lacemakers with a roller pillow!
Why not use a sturdy/thick  elastick band i.e rubberband to hold the pattern
round the roller? Has allways worked for me. No need to move pins back and
forth during the work.
Re.  work raising from the pattern; angle the pin a little further back,
that will do the trick!
Happy lacing,
Ewa,
in the very south of Sweden, Scania, where it isgetting dark by the time the
kids are due home from school.

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Re: [lace] TONDER LACE PINS

[Clay Blackwell]

Hi Adele and Candy -

It sounds like your lovely pins, Adele, are the same pins I use for 
Binche.  Originally, I got them from Holly (Van Sciver) who sold them in 
small tubes of 150 pins per tube. And they *were* expensive, (especially 
since one tube is not enough for most projects!!) and of course the 
price went up as the exchange rate went against our favor.  Then Susan 
Wenzel (Lacy Susan) found a supplier who could provide them less 
expensively, and they are my favorite pins now.  They're still 
expensive, but they're packaged 300 per box for $14.50.  The size is 
38mm x 0.4mm.  They're stainless, and they ARE lovely.  It took me a 
while to get used to them...  I bent quite a few at first!  But now I 
rarely bend one, and they do make beautiful lace.  I found that two 
boxes is enough for most projects, and I got a third box recently, to 
compensate for the pins I had bent.


An alternative is to use insect pins, which are less expensive.  They 
can be found in scientific supply companies and you'll find them if you 
google.  They come in several sizes, and I actually used them before I 
discovered the stainless pins that Holly carries.  Size 0 is 
equivalent to 38mm x 0.4mm, using Adele's measuring system.  The insect 
pins I have are black enameled with little gold heads.  They also bend 
easily, and one problem is that occasionally when they bend, the enamel 
flakes off and gets onto your lace.  So I'd use those in a pinch, 
because the stainless are much better in my opinion.


When I worked Tonder, I used the traditional Tonder bobbins and they are 
very pretty.  But because of the bulb at the bottom, they take up a lot 
of room on the pillow, and you also have to learn how to manage lots of 
pairs, since it's almost essential that you stack them to one side when 
you're not using them.  On the flip side, the bulb does keep those 
bobbins from being right on top of each other, so your fingers have no 
trouble getting the bobbin you mean to get...  However, until you fall 
completely in love and decide that you're going to do nothing but Tonder 
for a long time, the midlands (or continentals) work just as well.  
(That's my pocket snake talking).


Clay





Adele Shaak wrote:

I have googled and saw lots of pretty lace,  a few bobbins  and no
definitions on the size of the pins.


Generally Tonder uses very fine, long pins. I'm no Tonder expert, but 
I feel the finer pins are better because you use very fine thread and 
you often close your pins (ie, C-T-T, pin, C-T-T). If the pin is wider 
than two twists of the thread, then the thread starts having to go an 
extra distance to get around the pin, and the pin itself is changing 
the shape of your lace. I don't know if I've explained this very well 
- hope you understand what I'm getting at.


But, if you're taking a beginner class, they might use a thicker 
thread (in the class I took at PNWC this June the beginners used size 
120 thread; more advanced students used 160). If you're using the 120 
cotton you might be perfectly happy with the normal fine lace pins of 
.55 mm or so.


I used the 160 cotton at my class and I remember being glad that I had 
brought the very fine Tonder pins, which were already in my stash. 
Unfortunately I bought the pins a while back and I don't recall the 
brand name of the pin or what size they were. But, I just put some 
side by side and measured - 9 pins cover about 3.5 mm, so I guess 
they're about .4 mm each. Lovely pins. Wish I could get more, though I 
do recall they were very expensive!


Hope this helps. And - if anybody recognizes these pins from the 
description I've given, and knows where I can get more, do let me know.


Adele
North Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

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[lace] TONDER LACE PINS

[CANDYLVRDG]

I just have a quick question or two.  What  type of bobbin is traditionally 
used for Tonder lace?  Should I avoid  spangled ones?
 
What is the size of pins I should use?I have be trying to look before 
I go to class in case I have what I need.
 
 
Thanks
 
Candy
 
 
PS  I have googled and saw lots of pretty lace,  a few bobbins  and no 
definitions on the size of the pins.

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RE: [lace] TONDER LACE PINS

[Ruth Budge]

Presumably the traditional bobbin is one of the continental styles with the
rounded bottomshowever, I've successfully used ordinary spangled
Midlands  bobbins for Tonder for years.   As for the pins, I use the same
pins as I do for everything else - fine lace pins that I use for Bucks.

Tonder doesn't have the sewings found in Honiton, for instance - and is to
avoid catching the spangles on the threads during a sewing that
Honiton-workers use a non-spangled bobbin.

Ruth Budge (Sydney, Australia)


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 13 October 2006 10:14
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [lace] TONDER LACE PINS

I just have a quick question or two.  What  type of bobbin is traditionally 
used for Tonder lace?  Should I avoid  spangled ones?
 
What is the size of pins I should use?I have be trying to look
before 
I go to class in case I have what I need.
 
 
Thanks
 
Candy
 
 
PS  I have googled and saw lots of pretty lace,  a few bobbins  and no 
definitions on the size of the pins.

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Re: [lace] TONDER LACE PINS

[Barbara Joyce]

Traditionally, the bobbins used in Denmark are the long ones with spherical
knobs at the ends, usually beaded. However, you can use any continental or
East Midlands bobbin that you like. Since there are virtually no sewings in
Tonder lace, it's perfectly fine to use spangled bobbins, if that's your
preference. If you're going to be doing a wide lace that uses many pairs of
bobbins, you'd be smart to select something narrow, such as a Binche bobbin.

For pins, I like 30 x .50 steel pins.

For some interesting pictures of Tonder bobbins and lace, please take a look
at http://lace.lacefairy.com/International/Denmark.html.

For an interesting discussion about How to Select a Pin, go to
http://www.vansciverbobbinlace.com/Pins.html and scroll down to that
title, below the listing of pins.

Enjoy your class!

Barbara Joyce

Snoqualmie, WA
USA

 I just have a quick question or two.  What  type of bobbin is traditionally
 used for Tonder lace?  Should I avoid  spangled ones?
  
 What is the size of pins I should use?I have be trying to look before
 I go to class in case I have what I need.
  
  
 Thanks
  
 Candy
  
  
 PS  I have googled and saw lots of pretty lace,  a few bobbins  and no
 definitions on the size of the pins.
 
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Re: [lace] TONDER LACE PINS

[Adele Shaak]

I have googled and saw lots of pretty lace,  a few bobbins  and no
definitions on the size of the pins.


Generally Tonder uses very fine, long pins. I'm no Tonder expert, but I 
feel the finer pins are better because you use very fine thread and you 
often close your pins (ie, C-T-T, pin, C-T-T). If the pin is wider than 
two twists of the thread, then the thread starts having to go an extra 
distance to get around the pin, and the pin itself is changing the 
shape of your lace. I don't know if I've explained this very well - 
hope you understand what I'm getting at.


But, if you're taking a beginner class, they might use a thicker thread 
(in the class I took at PNWC this June the beginners used size 120 
thread; more advanced students used 160). If you're using the 120 
cotton you might be perfectly happy with the normal fine lace pins of 
.55 mm or so.


I used the 160 cotton at my class and I remember being glad that I had 
brought the very fine Tonder pins, which were already in my stash. 
Unfortunately I bought the pins a while back and I don't recall the 
brand name of the pin or what size they were. But, I just put some side 
by side and measured - 9 pins cover about 3.5 mm, so I guess they're 
about .4 mm each. Lovely pins. Wish I could get more, though I do 
recall they were very expensive!


Hope this helps. And - if anybody recognizes these pins from the 
description I've given, and knows where I can get more, do let me know.


Adele
North Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

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Re: [lace] pins!

[romdom]

le 13/11/05 23:09, Jo Falkink à [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :

 We just have to be sure we don't leave any pins in the carpet.
 
 Alice in Oregon (previously [EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 Seems impossible to me. We've been guests in the town hall for quite some
 time and they collected a box full of dropped pins.
 
 Jo Falkink


there 's a whole study to be made about the ability of pins to drop
unnoticed .
dominique aka romdom
-- 

Seize opportunity by the beard, for it is bald behind.
Bulgarian proverb

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[lace] Pins angled

[Elizabeth Ligeti]

Andy Blodgett  askes about putting in pins straight or angled.
Well, I Always angle my pins - slightly backwards for the Internal pins, and 
'Back and Out' for the edge pins.
However, if working trails, I sometimes ease the pins Back and Out to keep 
the work down on the trail pricking.  Sometimes this is necessary to keep 
the work sitting down correctly
Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz  -- Where we have had a couple of showers 
of rain - at last!, but not enough to get too  excited about!


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[lace] Fishbone Lace Pins

[Linda Walton]

While the list is quiet, I'd like to take the opportunity to put forward a
theory.  It's been floating about at the back of my mind for quite a long
time, so I've no references to sources, only distant memories that recently
came together in a new pattern.

Probably since shortly after the time I started making lace, I have heard
that early lacemakers used fishbones for pins.  But I can't imagine any of
those little rib-type bones being strong enough to be pushed into a straw
pillow, nor taking the strain of tensioned linen thread.  This puzzle has
always irritated me.

Then I caught a little of a television programme where someone was talking
about those ruffs they wore in the days of Good Queen Bess, and remarked on
the dozens of pins needed to hold them together.  It had never occurred to
me before to wonder how those amazing ruffs were actually constructed and
worn.

And that's when it clicked.  The metal pins of the time were expensive
handmade objects of rust-prone iron, or corrosion-prone brass.  Fishbone
pins would be cheap and in plentiful supply, and already naturally fine and
white.

Is it possible that a confusion has crept in between pins for holding lace
in one's costume and pins for holding lace on one's pillow?

My knowledge of history is vague at best - there must be someone out there
who can shed more light on this for me.  Please resolve this issue, so that
I can ponder some other daft question.

Yours sincerely,
Linda Walton,
(in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.,
where it's a quiet Autumn morning, clear but still warm,
and the beech woods are just beginning to turn colour -
and I'm taking a break from what has been a very busy few months,
before facing what promise to be several more busy months).

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Re: [lace] Fishbone Lace Pins and old IOLI bulletins

[Laceandbits]

When I was doing lace City and Guilds in 1987 (unfinished at that time as it 
was interupted by a fairly major car accident) one of my fellow students did 
some research on the use of fish bones and thorns as pin substitutes.  I am 
fairly sure that her conclusions were that mostly they were not any use because 
if they were fine enough for the lace, they were too fragile to push into the 
pillow.  Perhaps another of the people who were on that course with me, or 
AnnDay our tutor, could fill in the gaps I have in my memory from that time.

On a similar theme, I have this week found the 1981/82 IOLI annual bulletin 
in a local second hand book shop.  Among the pieces I have read so far is an 
article about Arlene McKinnel of Brecksville.  Relevant to this topic is a 
reference to the early English Midlands lacemakers who had no access to standard 
equipment and so were forced to use the bones from sheep for bobbins and the 
fine fish bones to make their prickings.  Obviously no NEC lace fair then!

In the same article is a reference to American Ipswich lace bobbins being 
made of bamboo.  A quote from here says It's thought that the five inch bobbins 
were brought into Ipswich Bay on trading ships, perhaps as part of the packing 
used to transport Oriental goods safely across the sea to New England.  
Although I remember this lace being discussed on occasion on Arachne, I don't 
remember bamboo bobbins, but I love the idea that bobbins could have been used as 
an early form of polystyrene chips; somehow though, I think the author got the 
idea a little mixed up.  But it is perfectly possible that the bamboo used to 
make early packing cases could have been recycled into bobbins (and lots of 
other things) once in America.  So, were Ipswich bobbins made of bamboo?  And 
all of them or just some?

Finally, in the July 1982 edition there was an article about a lace 
collection owned by a Mrs. Laurena Senter, shown to the Columbine IOL Lace Club of 
Denver.  I would like to ask if anyone knows any contact details for either Mrs 
Senter or (as it is 20 years on) the current owner of this collection.

Many thanks in advance, Jacquie

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Re: [lace] Fishbone Lace Pins

[Joy Beeson]

At 08:46 AM 10/9/04 +0100, Linda Walton wrote:

Probably since shortly after the time I started making lace, I have heard
that early lacemakers used fishbones for pins.  But I can't imagine any of
those little rib-type bones being strong enough to be pushed into a straw
pillow, nor taking the strain of tensioned linen thread.  This puzzle has
always irritated me.

The story started as an attempt to explain the name bone lace.  
Another name for bone lace was stick lace.  If you read a lot 
of very old[1] books, as I did when growing up,  the use of bone 
for small stick-shaped objects doesn't seem to require any explanation.  

-- 
Joy Beeson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.earthlink.net/~joybeeson/
http://home.earthlink.net/~beeson_n3f/ 
west of Fort Wayne, Indiana, U.S.A.
where it's sunny again after one damp day.

[1]  librarians had not yet developed the habit of trashing 
everything that goes six months without being checked out 
-- even when the *reason* it hasn't been checked out is that 
it's a reference book and doesn't circulate!

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[lace] pins

[JSyzygy]

  I am working on a Chantilly fan and I am thinking about pins.  None of my
lace books talk about this subject.
  I have three boxes of pins:
   38 x .40 mm  long and thin
   30 x .50 mm  -- my usual --
   17 x .45 mm  short and thin
  Recall that Chantilly is a you can never have too many bobbins sort of 
lace.
This particular piece uses about 85 pairs and is I guess is about 7 footside 
per cm
{17 footside per in).  Since previously my maximum was 50 pairs and I worked 
at 14 ft/inch, you see that I am being ambitious.  Also, I do not actually 
know how
to make Chantilly, so I am pretending it is Bucks Point.
  This piece is very simple and consists mainly of large blocky half-stitch 
figures
and ground.
   Method might be relevant,  so I say that I am using a big octogonal block 
pillow
(9 blocks, corner blocks are triangles, blocks move in all directions).  It 
is 23 inches
wide.  This is my main pillow; almost all my lace exercises have been done on 
it,
from the very beginning up until now.  The bobbins, all spangled Midlands,  
lie flat 
on  my pillow while I work( ie hands-down).  I hate it when the ends of the 
bobbins 
dangle off the end of the pillow.  I always pre-prick.
  Since I can only actually work with 10-15 pairs of bobbins at a time and 
Bucks
Point usually uses more than that, I need a way to get rid of all those extra 
bobbins.  I use spring stitch holders, which are thin plastic rods with 
stretchy 
metal closures.  They hold about 9 pairs, 10 if I push it.  All my unused 
bobbins 
are bound in holders and thrown over to the left and right top sides of the 
pillow, out 
of the way of my working area. When I started I used holders even when I only 
had about 15 total pairs since it is so nice to really focus on the 
particular motif
I'm working on, secure in the knowledge that the unused bobbins can't possibly
become disarranged.  Besides, they need to go in holders anyway when I finish
my session and put the pillow down.
   Preparing for my new Chantilly project, I became worried that my usual pins
were too thick.  The holes in the pricking are so close together!  Surely 
they are
about as close as the diameter of a pin.  So I decided to try smaller pins.  
I bought
the short and thin box and started the lace.
  The short and thin pins didn't last more than two rows of lace.  They were 
horrible,
absolutely horrible to use.  The threads kept on looping over the tops of the 
pins and
becoming disarranged.  After two painstakingly tedious rows I gave up and 
went to
my usual pins.  It was such a relief to no longer have to intensely 
concentrate on my
threads' not hopping and to just zip quickly along, lacing away.
  So I decided that maybe short pins are bad for Chantilly/Bucks Point.  Maybe
when you have any type of lace that uses lots of bobbins which need to be 
thrown 
back and stacked, then short pins are bad because the threads of the 
thrown-back 
bobbins naturally rise up a little and so loop over short pins.  Could this 
be true?
  So I bought a box(actually, tube) of the long and thin pins.  When I got 
them I
was disappointed becuase there weren't very many of them (about 150) and they
were so thin that they hurt my fingers when I pushed them in.
I contemplated my pricking more carefully.  It seemed to me that in fact 
my usual
pins could be used in the ground (17 ftsd/in, remember), although it does 
make for a
particularly impenetrable pin thicket--no possible way of spotting mistakes 
until they
get out of the thicket.  The problem was the half-stitch figures, which in 
many places 
were almost twice as dense as the ground (ie two half-stitch pins for every 
ground 
stitch that goes in and out).  So I decided to use the long and thin pins for 
the figures
and my usual pins for the ground.  That way my fingers got a bit of rest from 
pushing
the thin pins and I wouldn't use very many thin pins at a time so I wouldn't 
run out.
What made this idea particularly feasible is that the difference in the 
lengths of the 
pins meant I could easily distinguish between the two types when I was 
reaching into
the thicket for a new pin.
   So, just as I finished off the starting rows of the fan and approached my 
very first 
figure, I switched to the ground-usual, figure-thin method.
  Now it is several weeks later and everything has worked out well.  The only 
problem 
is that I find that the long and thin pins bend.  I bet that about a third of 
them are 
severely bent!  I've been using my usual pins for years and the most heavily 
used 
ones have only a mild bend.  These new pins have gotten all beat up after 
just a few 
pushes!
  I think a lot of the bending is due to my not placing the pins accurately 
and so 
sometimes not being centered in my pre-pricked pricking holes.  Also, because 
the 
holes are so very close together and hard to see, there are times when I miss 
the prepricked holes completely and force the pin thropugh the pricking.  
Regardless,

RE: [lace] pins

[Panza, Robin]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Method might be relevant,  so I say that I am using a big octogonal block
pillowThe bobbins, all spangled Midlands, lie flat on my pillow while I
work( ie hands-down).  

First of all, the threads looping over the top of the pins.  Part of the
problem is probably the fact that you're using such a flat pillow.  The
bobbins don't put tension on the thread, which would keep it from looping
over the pins.  I have an flat-topped octagonal pillow, but I raise the back
a bit to keep the bobbins hanging down.  Not so steep that they try to pile
up at the very center/bottom, just a bit to take advantage of gravity in
keeping the threads under tension.

If pin length were the problem, you'd have the same trouble when using your
longer pins pushed farther into the pillow.  Do you?  Anyway, pushing the
pins down to the surface of the pillow would keep the lace from riding up
and would make it harder for threads to catch on the pins.  Also, constantly
brushing your bobbins downward (towards you) would help to keep the threads
tensioned and unable to jump backwards over the pins.


  So I bought a box(actually, tube) of the long and thin pins.  When I
got them I was disappointed becuase there weren't very many of them (about
150) and they were so thin that they hurt my fingers when I pushed them
in.

The quilters have stick-on pads (one brand is plastic, another is thin
leather) that act like thimbles without the bulk.  This is great for pushing
in pins.  They also have something called the Nimble Thimble, which is a
very-thin-leather thimble with a metal plate embedded at the appropriate
spot.  More on your finger than with the pads, but still a lot less bulk and
bother than regular thimbles.  [Don't be confused by other leather thimbles
that are thick leather.  The Nimble Thimble is the one that is comfortable
for those who don't like thimbles.]


The only problem is that I find that the long and thin pins bend.  I bet
that about a third of them are severely bent!  I've been using my usual pins
for years and the most heavily used ones have only a mild bend.  

That's not a function of the length of the pin.  It sounds like your long
ones are insect pins, which are made of a metal that does bend.  I believe
Clover or Bohin make some pins that are thinner than .50, but of stainless
so they don't bend.  Insect pins and brass pins bend if not carefully placed
in a pre-pricked hole.


Also, because the holes are so very close together and hard to see, there
are times when I miss the prepricked holes completely and force the pin
thropugh the pricking.  

If you think you found the hole, but the pin isn't going through, then you
should recognize that you need to keep feeling for the hole.  That will save
your fingers from pain, your pins from bending, your pricking from becoming
a mess, and will make your lace more accurate (more beautiful when taken off
the pillow).

So what is going on here?  How do pins fit into the grand scheme of
things?  I mean, what is the theory about which types to use and how does it
all tend to work out in practice?  

Most people use finer pins for finer/denser lace, but I've never heard a
rule of thumb.  Maybe someone else will provide that.  Motif laces,
ornaments, and small circular edgings generally need the pins pushed down to
the pillow, because your threads/bobbins will come around to where the old
pins are in the way.  Therefore, short pins are good for those laces, so
they don't have to be pushed so far to get them flush with the surface, or
pulled that hard to get them out again.  I've not heard anyone say long pins
are better for something, but maybe someone will answer your question on
that count.


better now that I try to make the threads go under a pin.  I'm using my
usual pin since I don't have a hat pin and I still see great improvement.


Yes, guard pins can help keep threads under control, guiding them from the
lace to the stacked bobbins.  They would help you when using short pins,
too.

Robin P.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/

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[lace] Pins

[Jean Nathan]

Because RA makes it uncomfortable to flick bobbins side to side, I move them
by lifting so crossing and twisting is down above the pricking, not on it.
That means my lace always rides up the pins, so even with torchon, I push
the outside pins all the way in after I've work each inch or so to stop this
happening. It keeps the work down even if it's wide.

Jean in Poole

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[lace] pins

[Lorelei Halley]

Lynn
In certain types of bobbin lace one does push the pins all the way down.
This is done specifically in free/part laces such as Honiton, Duchesse and
tape laces.  The reason is that you constantly change directions as you work
and sometimes work over parts already finished.  You have to get the pins
out of the way.  In doing torchon on a roller pillow there is no need to
push the pins all the way down, and not doing so saves time.
Lorelei

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[lace] Pins

[Jean Nathan]

DH, a former lecturer in engineering materials tells me that whether steel
rusts or not depends on whether there is free iron in it. Rust is oxidised
iron. Moisture and oxygen causes iron to rust. Steel is a carbon/iron alloy.
If the iron has been converted to austenite, the steel will not rust. The
higher the quality of the steel (austenitic as opposed to ferric) the less
it will rust. Good quality knives, scissors, are made from austenitic steel
and cost more. Cheaper items will be made from ferric iron and will rust.
It's possible that pins are made from ferric iron because they bend, and
that form of steel is softer than the austenitic type. That's as far as he
can remember from 30 years ago.

It seem that it's like everything else - you get what you pay for. If you
have the choice of expensive or cheap pins, the expensive ones *should* last
longer unless you're just getting ripped off.

Jean in Poole

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RE: [lace] Pins

[Marcie Greer]

Aren't most high-quality (modern) stainless pins nickel-coated to
inhibit rusting?

Marcie

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[lace] Pins (2)

[Jean Nathan]

Marcie wrote:

Aren't most high-quality (modern) stainless pins nickel-coated to
inhibit rusting?

Tim Parker sells an extensive range of pins including yellow brass,
stainless steel, nickel plated steel and nickel plated brass. The nickel
plated steel won't be stainless steel (austenitic) which resists rusting so
there's no need to plate it, it will just be steel (ferric) which will rust
easily unless plated. In their bought state stainless steel pins will have a
fine oxide coating (but not iron oxide/rust) which is why they are less rust
resistant when the surface is scratched and this fine coating is removed. It
was always difficut to weld steel until it was realised that this coating
was present and could be removed.

It's difficult to compare prices because of the different lengths and
thicknesses of the pins, but in the last price list I had from Tim, a box of
100 grams of:

26 mm x 0.53 mm stainless steel is 7 pounds 50 and yellow brass 5 pounds 50
26 mm x 0.65 mm yellow brass 4 pounds 25, nickel plated brass 4 pounds 50
17 mm x .45 mm yellow brass and nickel plated brass are both 6 pounds 65
26 mm x .53 mm stainless steel 7 pounds 50, 26 mm x 0.65 mm nickel plated
brass 4 pounds 50
30 mm x 0.60 mm and 34 mm x 0.60 nickel plated steel are both 4 pounds 50

Overall, stainless steel seems to be the most expensive, but the more
difficult a particular popular pin is to get hold of the more expensive it
will become.

For rust to occur on steel, there has to be moisture and oxygen present
(most people did the iron nail in the test tube experiment to find the
conditions necessary for rusting at school), so I keep all my pins, whether
stuck in pin cushins or not, in a shoe box with several small sachets of
silica gel which are dried and replaced frequently. Whatever type of pin,
they're too expensive not to take care of them, not to mention that some
sizes are becoming difficult to get hold of so I want to preserve what I
have.

Jean in Poole

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[lace] Pins in a Museum - England?

[Jeriames]

Dear Lacemakers in England,

Is there a needle museum in your country?  

Perhaps one of you is familiar with whether they display pins in this museum? 
   Perhaps there is a Web Site?

Perhaps they have published a booklet on the history of needles and pins?

Was this museum on the tour i/c/w last year's OIDFA meeting in Nottingham?  I 
recall the reference, so it cannot be too far back.  

(From one who retains less than 1% of all she reads!)

Jeri Ames in Maine USA
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center
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RE: [lace] Pins in a Museum - England?

[BARRON]

try this Jeri and see if it looks familiar

http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/worcestershire/museums/forge-hill.htm

jenny barron
Scotland

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 June 2003 16:15
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [lace] Pins in a Museum - England?


Dear Lacemakers in England,

Is there a needle museum in your country?

Perhaps one of you is familiar with whether they display pins in this
museum?
   Perhaps there is a Web Site?

Perhaps they have published a booklet on the history of needles and pins?

Was this museum on the tour i/c/w last year's OIDFA meeting in Nottingham?
I
recall the reference, so it cannot be too far back.

(From one who retains less than 1% of all she reads!)

Jeri Ames in Maine USA
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center
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[lace] Pins in a Museum - England?

[Jane Partridge]

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Is there a needle museum in your country?  

Forge Needle Museum, Studley, near Redditch, Worcestershire.  (We passed
it yesterday, on the way to Coughton Court - home of the Throckmorton
Family - of Gunpowder Plot fame - though also on display is Edward
VIII's abdication letter - where the chemise Mary Queen of Scots wore
for her execution is on display - the edgings are needlelace).

It is worth going - in the same complex is Bordesley Abbey, and one of
the Sheldon tapestries (a panel about 15-18 inches square) was on
display in the Visitor Centre when we went (it is probably still there).
This tapestry has a border of silver (metal) lace - Spanish fan and
torchon ground if I remember correctly.  Dates to late 17th Century.

I have been a couple of times, and honestly can't remember many pins
amongst the display (though there were pincushions, following the
publication of Audrey Babbington's Pincushion Book a few years back) -
the processes for making them are different (needles are made in pairs,
the eyes punched in the centre of the rod before separating and
pointing).  I think there may have been a few to show the differing
heads (from lumps of wax? to the current flat type).

Being the gr gr gr granddaughter of a Bromsgrove nailer (Bromsgrove is
not very far from Studley) I suppose this is the sort of thing I should
know!  BTW, nailing is another industry we were supposed to have no clue
about until the Flemish refugees landed!

As you may gather, this area was famous for the production of needles
and nails - though sadly, no longer - but a short while back it was more
or less certain that any needle you held had been made in Studley.  Now
they are made in the far East, too.
-- 
Jane Partridge
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