Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Keep this fight off the forum! Mail it directly to the person(s) you want to address, if you think it appropriate. Did they not teach you manners when you were young? Obviously not. Most probably you will start shouting at me now. Send your insults to my given eMail address, not to the forum. Mit freundlichem Gruß Kind regards Gisbert Auge N.A.T. GmbH www.nateurope.com * Tracking #: C46B0BA2332F3E41BF764B23A9C5C2977D745130 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Ian, as I never received a reply to the cited mail below, I resend it. Please drop me a line. Mit freundlichem Gruß Kind regards Gisbert Auge N.A.T. GmbH www.nateurope.com - Weitergeleitet von Gisbert Auge/NAT am 14.08.2002 11:56 - ga@nateurope. com An: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: 01.08.2002 Thema: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start! 12:33 Bitte antworten an Protel EDA Forum You make your point very clear, Ian. I am with you. Concerning the bug list you manage: Did you add the bug in gerber generation of renamed layers and the bug in translating layer information to Specctra to the list, which I described some weeks ago? I never received any comment to these mails. Regards, Gisbert Auge N.A.T. GmbH www.nateurope.com * Tracking #: DCF393C1107C2A47BBBE13199FEFBB8D8CEB3B62 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Ian - I have waited well over a week here now, thinking about whether or not I should even respond to your little tirade. I have walked away from responding to this some 20 or 30 times or more, during that period. Ultimately I believe that I cannot let such a vitriolic personal attack go unanswered, especially when such an attack calls into question my very credibility, both as a designer, and as a programmer. I am sorry Ian, please don't take it personally if I take this opportunity to set the record straight on several major mistakes that you have foolishly made in your haste to attack me. While I am sorry that you and some others in this forum do not like my attitude, I do not think that it is really my attitude that is in question here. You have made it very clear in the past that you do not like my attitude, and more specifically, that you simply do not like me, period. You have also made it very clear both here and in the past that this has more to do with your being right and my being wrong, and your not wanting to side with me or agree with me for any reason, even if I am right on an issue, than with whether or not something actually is right or wrong, or whether a description of a problem is realistic or not. It is not my intention to be rude, and I apologize to the forum if I have been, but personally, at this point, I don't care whether you personally like my attitude or not. You have personally attacked me, and I believe at a minimum I have the right to defend myself against your accusations, and show you where you have in fact made misrepresentations, false accusations, and have just plain wholly misunderstood some things. I also believe that I have the right to show everyone else in this form just how you appear to have intentionally inflamed the rhetoric here in the forum, or at a minimum refused to do anything to diffuse it when you clearly could have, and then attempted to offload the blame on me. I will attempt to be very cautious in what I say, because I certainly do not want to inflame the situation any further, and I do not want to be misunderstood, nor do I want to be accused of misunderstanding something myself. It is my intent to be reasoned and rational, and present a logical answer to the issues that have been raised here in this thread in the last few weeks. Once again, I apologize in advance to others in the forum for anything that may be perceived as rude or an attitude problem. Please see below, JaMi * * * * * * * * * * - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start! On 11:24 PM 31/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? I've had enough of your rudeness. I am very sorry that this appears to be rude to you Ian, but the simple fact is that Tony appears to have misunderstood several things in many of the previous posts to this thread, and I don't know of any simpler or less offensive way to way to say that. Unfortunately, the very same sentence applies to you, here in this response of yours, as I will show below. I am sorry if it is rude to say that. A lot of people have been trying to be constructive in the face of what is simply rudeness. This may in fact be true of some people, but I do not believe that I have been rude to them. As for you and Tony, I believe that it is fair and honest evaluation to say that it appears that the both of you have been on the attack ever since your very first responses to my initial post in this thread, way back on July 22, and I have been defending myself from that attack ever since. I will most certainly admit, as I already have in a previous post in this thread, that none of the three of us (you, Tony, and I), have not gone out of our way to be courteous to one another. I firmly think you should go back over the emails you have sent over the last few weeks and the replies. I have indeed done just that, and that is why I have made the above statement about attack and defense, as well as the additional statements regarding your misunderstanding things also. This is especially galling as some of us have gone out of our way to assist you and you simply throw back flack. In the US, we have a slang expression which goes like this: Talk about the Pot calling the Kettle Black! I believe that this is applicable here. As I have stated before when you have thrown these kinds of accusations around here in this thread and in other places, I am not alone. In other words, I believe
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
The winner of a useless personal argument is the one who first realizes it is useless and who therefore walks away from it, leaving the other(s) raving before an audience which no longer includes this winner (or at least he gives little or no sign of still being present). One who is most intent on preserving his own good name may well be the one who sullies it most. Responding ingraciously to real or perceived insults can make them seem legitimate criticisms. A word to the wise is sufficient, a tome, nay, an entire library and the united chorus of the world will not suffice to warn one obsessed with himself. And to repeat another old saying, if the shoe fits, wear it. Otherwise leave it for its real owner. * Tracking #: 23A4146EC87B9643BD1209D23D496C14BE87A94E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Oh for heavens's sake, this is a forum not a bloody soap-box for rants and tirades. Take your petty squabbles somewhere else. Dave Sanders -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 6:02 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start! Ian - I have waited well over a week here now, thinking about whether or not I should even respond to your little tirade. I have walked away from responding to this some 20 or 30 times or more, during that period. is that Tony appears to have misunderstood several things in many of the previous posts to this thread, and I don't know of any simpler or less offensive way to way to say that. Unfortunately, the very same sentence applies to you, here in this response of yours, as I will show BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH... * Tracking #: FDA4BECC5FFBD34F8FDF39B54C7F681E6BBC8955 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
try this one for stability open new schematic open ispecotr , right clik on the mid pane - access violation reading 0x0004 every time. under win98 - protel 99se your system would die. DXP on 2000 : close the box and continue . I have a memory sniffer and resource monitor open . it doesn't even 'leak' memory ! Ian Wilson wrote: On 04:09 PM 1/08/2002 -0500, Matt Pobursky said: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0400, Watnoski, Michael wrote: Greetings all, Another two cents: Protel has been my biggest headache as far as crashes due to upgrades of other programs. I would expect that if Protel needed specific versions of .dlls to run, it should have written them and not used the Microsoft versions that are likely to be updated on a regular basis. I am Actually, they should just put ALL their ancillary config files, required DLL's and such in the Protel owned and created directory. End of problem. Actually it isn't - at least until Win XP came along. Pretty much only one DLL of a certain name can exist in memory pre-XP. Win XP now allows different versions of a DLL to exist in memory (I think). This is the MS solution to DLL hell. Again, not very defensive programming practices. Somewhat forced by the OS in this case but I agree that, at least historically Protel products have not been very defensive. But do remember that the user community was split in 1999 as to whether the application should trade speed for stability. Ian * Tracking #: 359C05030908664CBC51CCEC9FEA08FC302B19E6 * -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _ // Vincent Himpe // _ ___/ Lab Manager / \ \ / / /ST Microelectronics /___\ \ / / / 5510 Six Forks Road . Suite 200 /__//_/__/ Raleigh NC 27612 Tel : (919) 850 6070 Fax : (919) 850 6689 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
It doesn't happen for me. I tried it with and without a component in focus (w/o causes the inspector panel to be empty) I'll be very interested to hear how that one gets resolved for you. It's funny, there seems to be two camps: the ones that don't get crashes and the ones that do. I wonder what the dependencies are? -Original Message- From: vincent mail [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 7:07 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. try this one for stability open new schematic open ispecotr , right clik on the mid pane - access violation reading 0x0004 every time. under win98 - protel 99se your system would die. DXP on 2000 : close the box and continue . I have a memory sniffer and resource monitor open . it doesn't even 'leak' memory ! Ian Wilson wrote: On 04:09 PM 1/08/2002 -0500, Matt Pobursky said: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0400, Watnoski, Michael wrote: Greetings all, Another two cents: Protel has been my biggest headache as far as crashes due to upgrades of other programs. I would expect that if Protel needed specific versions of .dlls to run, it should have written them and not used the Microsoft versions that are likely to be updated on a regular basis. I am Actually, they should just put ALL their ancillary config files, required DLL's and such in the Protel owned and created directory. End of problem. Actually it isn't - at least until Win XP came along. Pretty much only one DLL of a certain name can exist in memory pre-XP. Win XP now allows different versions of a DLL to exist in memory (I think). This is the MS solution to DLL hell. Again, not very defensive programming practices. Somewhat forced by the OS in this case but I agree that, at least historically Protel products have not been very defensive. But do remember that the user community was split in 1999 as to whether the application should trade speed for stability. Ian * Tracking #: 359C05030908664CBC51CCEC9FEA08FC302B19E6 * -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _ // Vincent Himpe // _ ___/ Lab Manager / \ \ / / /ST Microelectronics /___\ \ / / / 5510 Six Forks Road . Suite 200 /__//_/__/ Raleigh NC 27612 Tel : (919) 850 6070 Fax : (919) 850 6689 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
BAM!! THAT DID IT!!! Where is service pack 1!! -Original Message- From: vincent mail [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 11:04 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Tony Karavidas wrote: It doesn't happen for me. I tried it with and without a component in focus (w/o causes the inspector panel to be empty) I'll be very interested to hear how that one gets resolved for you. It's funny, there seems to be two camps: the ones that don't get crashes and the ones that do. I wonder what the dependencies are? hold it . can't have anything on the schematic . has to be a new clean sheet file new schematic. select the Navigator panel. and right click in the mid pane where it says components - information. -Original Message- From: vincent mail [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 7:07 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. try this one for stability open new schematic open ispecotr , right clik on the mid pane - access violation reading 0x0004 every time. under win98 - protel 99se your system would die. DXP on 2000 : close the box and continue . I have a memory sniffer and resource monitor open . it doesn't even 'leak' memory ! Ian Wilson wrote: On 04:09 PM 1/08/2002 -0500, Matt Pobursky said: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0400, Watnoski, Michael wrote: Greetings all, Another two cents: Protel has been my biggest headache as far as crashes due to upgrades of other programs. I would expect that if Protel needed specific versions of .dlls to run, it should have written them and not used the Microsoft versions that are likely to be updated on a regular basis. I am Actually, they should just put ALL their ancillary config files, required DLL's and such in the Protel owned and created directory. End of problem. Actually it isn't - at least until Win XP came along. Pretty much only one DLL of a certain name can exist in memory pre-XP. Win XP now allows different versions of a DLL to exist in memory (I think). This is the MS solution to DLL hell. Again, not very defensive programming practices. Somewhat forced by the OS in this case but I agree that, at least historically Protel products have not been very defensive. But do remember that the user community was split in 1999 as to whether the application should trade speed for stability. Ian *** * * Tracking #: 359C05030908664CBC51CCEC9FEA08FC302B19E6 * *** * -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _ // Vincent Himpe // _ ___/ Lab Manager / \ \ / / /ST Microelectronics /___\ \ / / / 5510 Six Forks Road . Suite 200 /__//_/__/ Raleigh NC 27612 Tel : (919) 850 6070 Fax : (919) 850 6689 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _ // Vincent Himpe // _ ___/ Lab Manager / \ \ / / /ST Microelectronics /___\ \ / / / 5510 Six Forks Road . Suite 200 /__//_/__/ Raleigh NC 27612 Tel : (919) 850 6070 Fax : (919) 850 6689 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
- Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? You are so adamant about Protel being the problem. I found it funny that several people showed you real world examples of how it's possible you are wrong and yet you still refuse to accept the notion that it might be the mouse driver. I can accept that it is the Mouse Driver, but what you and a few others fail to want to allow for or admit is that the problem is due to the fact that Protel can't properly interface to the mouse driver. Several others in this forum have pointed this out and have accepted this as the real problem. You, and a few others, still refuse to address and answer the basic question of why does Protel and only Protel crash with the Intellimouse driver? Just answer that simple question - don't avoid it - don't complicate it - don't hide behind something else - don't make irrelevant accusations - just answer the simple question. Why does Protel and only Protel crash with the Intellimouse driver? Nobody appears to want to answer that question, because the answer is ovbious. You point out that I am so adamant about Protel being the problem. , which I will acknowledge, and I have given the reasons here several times but they seem to get overlooked or ignored by you and a few others, so I will point the primary reason out once again so that you can ignore it once again. - Even though the newer Intellimouse drivers seem not cause the Keyboard Lockout Problem, there still appears to still be a possible connection with the Intellimouse drivers, even the newer ones, and the unexplained system crashes that still get reported here in this forum (no one seems to want to address this statement either). I will keep pointing out the problem, and pointing the finger at Protel, until some qualified programmer from Protel addresses the question and convinces me that he has examined the relevant code and can unequivocally state that there is no association between Protel's continued crashing and any mouse driver whatsoever. There appears that there are many qualified programmers here in this forum, and I find it very interesting that at least a few of them appear to have sided with me on this issue, or at least at a minimum sided against Protel. I guess the questions that I might ask you Tony, are: Are you really qualified as a programmer to say that it is not the way in which Protel is handling the Mouse Driver? Are you really qualified as a programmer to say that it has nothing to do with the unexplained system crashes that some people are still having? I'm sure DXP will give you lots of fuel. Have a good one, Tony I don't want lots of fuel Tony, I just want a functioning EDA Software Application that will allow me to properly design and layout a PCB without all of the problems and hassels. JaMi * Tracking #: D7537658CEA70E4EA487987B8BB530EA5F36372C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Has Rhys got a new mobile? I haven't been able to get in contact with him -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 4:25 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? You are so adamant about Protel being the problem. I found it funny that several people showed you real world examples of how it's possible you are wrong and yet you still refuse to accept the notion that it might be the mouse driver. I can accept that it is the Mouse Driver, but what you and a few others fail to want to allow for or admit is that the problem is due to the fact that Protel can't properly interface to the mouse driver. Several others in this forum have pointed this out and have accepted this as the real problem. You, and a few others, still refuse to address and answer the basic question of why does Protel and only Protel crash with the Intellimouse driver? Just answer that simple question - don't avoid it - don't complicate it - don't hide behind something else - don't make irrelevant accusations - just answer the simple question. Why does Protel and only Protel crash with the Intellimouse driver? Nobody appears to want to answer that question, because the answer is ovbious. You point out that I am so adamant about Protel being the problem. , which I will acknowledge, and I have given the reasons here several times but they seem to get overlooked or ignored by you and a few others, so I will point the primary reason out once again so that you can ignore it once again. - Even though the newer Intellimouse drivers seem not cause the Keyboard Lockout Problem, there still appears to still be a possible connection with the Intellimouse drivers, even the newer ones, and the unexplained system crashes that still get reported here in this forum (no one seems to want to address this statement either). I will keep pointing out the problem, and pointing the finger at Protel, until some qualified programmer from Protel addresses the question and convinces me that he has examined the relevant code and can unequivocally state that there is no association between Protel's continued crashing and any mouse driver whatsoever. There appears that there are many qualified programmers here in this forum, and I find it very interesting that at least a few of them appear to have sided with me on this issue, or at least at a minimum sided against Protel. I guess the questions that I might ask you Tony, are: Are you really qualified as a programmer to say that it is not the way in which Protel is handling the Mouse Driver? Are you really qualified as a programmer to say that it has nothing to do with the unexplained system crashes that some people are still having? I'm sure DXP will give you lots of fuel. Have a good one, Tony I don't want lots of fuel Tony, I just want a functioning EDA Software Application that will allow me to properly design and layout a PCB without all of the problems and hassels. JaMi * Tracking #: D7537658CEA70E4EA487987B8BB530EA5F36372C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Yeah, I understand the posts. Maybe Protel and only Protel crash with the Intellimouse driver because Protel and only Protel is executing some parameter of the driver that is improperly coded IN THE DRIVER. Maybe Protel is requesting more data from the driver and its queue is getting overrun. I have no freakin idea since I didn't write any code but the point is it could be the driver code as easily as Protel's code. Yes I do write code, lots of it. I know enough to not definitely blame one source in a problem like this. I never said it's NOT Protel's fault. I'm just more open minded than you are about it. It could be anyone's fault that has to do with anything in your system. Could be the USB implementation of your motherboard, who the hell knows? Tell ME Jami, why does Protel NOT crash for me when I have an Intellimouse mouse and associated driver? Why does it NOT crash for hundreds of people that might be using the Intellimouse? If you do 'update' your driver and the problem goes away, why would you insist on blaming someone else? Have you actually tried the 'latest version' of the driver with no success, or do you just refuse to try in order to bitch about an old problem? (I can't remember if you have or not tried this) I don't think we'll ever know the exact number, but I would guess there are thousands of people using Protel without all the crashing problems you have. -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:25 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? You are so adamant about Protel being the problem. I found it funny that several people showed you real world examples of how it's possible you are wrong and yet you still refuse to accept the notion that it might be the mouse driver. I can accept that it is the Mouse Driver, but what you and a few others fail to want to allow for or admit is that the problem is due to the fact that Protel can't properly interface to the mouse driver. Several others in this forum have pointed this out and have accepted this as the real problem. You, and a few others, still refuse to address and answer the basic question of why does Protel and only Protel crash with the Intellimouse driver? Just answer that simple question - don't avoid it - don't complicate it - don't hide behind something else - don't make irrelevant accusations - just answer the simple question. Why does Protel and only Protel crash with the Intellimouse driver? Nobody appears to want to answer that question, because the answer is ovbious. You point out that I am so adamant about Protel being the problem. , which I will acknowledge, and I have given the reasons here several times but they seem to get overlooked or ignored by you and a few others, so I will point the primary reason out once again so that you can ignore it once again. - Even though the newer Intellimouse drivers seem not cause the Keyboard Lockout Problem, there still appears to still be a possible connection with the Intellimouse drivers, even the newer ones, and the unexplained system crashes that still get reported here in this forum (no one seems to want to address this statement either). I will keep pointing out the problem, and pointing the finger at Protel, until some qualified programmer from Protel addresses the question and convinces me that he has examined the relevant code and can unequivocally state that there is no association between Protel's continued crashing and any mouse driver whatsoever. There appears that there are many qualified programmers here in this forum, and I find it very interesting that at least a few of them appear to have sided with me on this issue, or at least at a minimum sided against Protel. I guess the questions that I might ask you Tony, are: Are you really qualified as a programmer to say that it is not the way in which Protel is handling the Mouse Driver? Are you really qualified as a programmer to say that it has nothing to do with the unexplained system crashes that some people are still having? I'm sure DXP will give you lots of fuel. Have a good one, Tony I don't want lots of fuel Tony, I just want a functioning EDA Software Application that will allow me to properly design and layout a PCB without all of the problems and hassels. JaMi * Tracking #: D7537658CEA70E4EA487987B8BB530EA5F36372C
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
On 11:24 PM 31/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? I've had enough of your rudeness. A lot of people have been trying to be constructive in the face of what is simply rudeness. I firmly think you should go back over the emails you have sent over the last few weeks and the replies. This is especially galling as some of us have gone out of our way to assist you and you simply throw back flack. I have not been responding to the goading you have been attempting. It is beneath me. I have admitted that I made a mistake in thinking you were beta testing DXP. Your were not. I was wrong, I said so. I am not sure you on going attitide is related to that but if it is please lets move on. However, your insistence that you are right in some matters that are, frankly, a matter of opinion, is simply foolish and damaging to your standing. You seem to want to call all aspects of Protel that do not conform to your way as bugs. Witness: 1) You have a preference for the PgUp and PgDn zoom actions to re-centre the screen. You call this a bug. Others prefer it. Others are told they are wrong. You make a claim the *my* server, that I wrote to calm your original onslaught on joining this forum some time ago, was an admission by me that it is a bug. And then you denigrate my denial that it is anything of the sort. I did you a favour, OK pal. I spent my time, doing something for you (yep just for you), to show you it could be done and to help you out. (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:32:34 -0700) 2) You have a problem with a mouse and key shortcuts. This is in fact a known bug in Protel but the solution is related to bugs in the mouse driver that you were supplied with your computer. Known driver bugs. Known solution. Yet you harp on this endlessly. Others attempt to explain this in a calm manner. You SHOUT at them. (Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:21 -0700) 3) You call the formatting in Protels PP format a bug. Others are able to use the PP format but you can't, so it is a bug. Sure, you have to structure you library correctly. Bug exactly what is a bug. (Are right-hand drive vehicles buggy, BTW?) 4) You made a statement that implied you were surprised when someone came back with a contrary view to yours some time later. You had taken their previous silence as you having convinced them (rather than the more likely case of you having simply annoyed them). (Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:18:43 -0700) 5) You repeat statements in a fashion only likely to raise tempers, and do nothing for sensible discussion (Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:51:38 -0700) 6) You confuse motives, and then argue over the denials. (Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:44:46 -0700). This gives me the appearance of arrogance, maybe you do not wish to convey that. 7) You are very ready to get personal. (Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:40:59 -0700). What is especially galling about this is that the subject at the time, that you attempted to confuse (deliberately or not) are not related. The auto-pan bug in Protel is not related to the manner in which PgUp and PgDn zoom operates. 8) You confuse missing features with bugs in the program and then proceed to add snipe comments within your email (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:23:08 -0700) I think, you need to: a) learn to separate bugs from other failings b) stop being rude and arrogant c) start discussing things in a sane fashion Other issues: 1) referring to DXP you stated Realistically, it will almost surely be released prior to October 1st, whether it is ready or not, so as to comply with the promises made to all those who bought into ATS, so that they will sign up for yet another year. (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:40:44 -0700). I do not recall seeing a public admission that you were wrong by three quarters of a year. 2) In contrast to some of your recent statements (re: Protel on a new Dell computer with new mouse etc), you have previously stated To give credit where credit is due, the undocumented feature dates back far beyond Microsoft and Bill Gates to at least the early days of IBM. (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:31:10 -0700) The quote goes on...and the context here is not as simple as this brief quote suggests. Point is, you have recognised that software is not perfect, yet in some recent claims you have suggested that your new Dell with your new mouse was not the source of the problems you were having. There is a subtle conflict in these concepts. (Now don't get confused here with the point I am making, I think Protel does have a bug in how it handles the mouse - the mouse should never hose the key shortcuts.) 3) You have previously reported problems
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
You make your point very clear, Ian. I am with you. Concerning the bug list you manage: Did you add the bug in gerber generation of renamed layers and the bug in translating layer information to Specctra to the list, which I described some weeks ago? I never received any comment to these mails. Regards, Gisbert Auge N.A.T. GmbH www.nateurope.com * Tracking #: DCF393C1107C2A47BBBE13199FEFBB8D8CEB3B62 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
A pragmatic approach : When JaMi would reveal his adress, we could send him a new mouse and close this suject. They are in the order of 20$. Rene Tony Karavidas wrote: I can see it now, you're probably one of those guys that sits clearly on one side of the hardware/software fence and blames the 'other side' when there is a problem. Since I happen to develop hardware AND software, I've seen it happen too many times where I think the problem might be in hardware and it turns out to be in software, or visa versa. There is no one to blame but myself, but the point is sometimes assumptions lead to debugging the wrong thing. One only finds out later what the true problem was and learns one of the thought paths was completely wrong. So you asked if I was qualified to talk about s/w issues with this topic. What are your qualifications? Your earlier post mentioned 3 decades of PCB design issues. Do you have any h/w or s/w design experience? * Tracking #: 75D3BA088DAAA944BFB9A4138F037E2994082A2E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Well said... I definitely appreciate Ian's contribution to this forum. Duane -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 1:51 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start! On 11:24 PM 31/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? I've had enough of your rudeness. A lot of people have been trying to be constructive in the face of what is simply rudeness. snip * Tracking #: 846D5AE24A907842BCB90D81D959052F9C7C768E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Ian wrote: I will put it to the group. Who has played the more constructive role in the forum over the past years. Who would you most like to shut-up? You are an asset to this group Ian. Brock * Tracking #: D0E1A009CC2F7C458F54FAF732D3742EE836CBF6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Matt Pobursky wrote: On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:51:38 -0700, JaMi Smith wrote: Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! FWIW, nothing crashes on my system but Protel either. And I mean NOTHING. My drivers are all up-to-date (even my Intellimouse drivers!). My Win2K SP2 is patched up-to-date. My hardware is rock solid and tested thoroughly. I have only had 1 crash of Protel 99SE in the year or so I've been running it under Win 2K. That day, I had been chopping parts out of a bunch of libraries, and putting them into other libraries, and all sorts of odd things that I don't do very often. I got an invalid intruction or such dialog box, closed all the files, and everything was ok. That is the only time I have had a (program) error of any sort since changing to Win 2K. Jon * Tracking #: 3CA3B938F25EA24EAE545B51FBA2D73BFC2898EA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0400, Watnoski, Michael wrote: Greetings all, Another two cents: Protel has been my biggest headache as far as crashes due to upgrades of other programs. I would expect that if Protel needed specific versions of .dlls to run, it should have written them and not used the Microsoft versions that are likely to be updated on a regular basis. I am Actually, they should just put ALL their ancillary config files, required DLL's and such in the Protel owned and created directory. End of problem. Again, not very defensive programming practices. DLL Sharing and extensive use of the Windows Registry looks good in theory, but in practice on a typical Windows system DLL Hell rears it's ugly head in a hurry. With disk space being almost irrelevant these days, there's no excuse to not segregate your program and config files from the rest of the system. Also, uninstalls become as simple as deleting the program's directory. Simple and clean. Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems * Tracking #: 3A02FAD5548DDA4D84D3D083928F3ED2AD2D5BFC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Finger hovering over the JaMi block... Ian Hehe, well said Ian. I don't think I ever had to kill filter anyone on a mailing list before :-) Here's hoping I never have to. JaMi, please chill out a little, this isn't a playground. These arguments have been fun to watch but are getting tiresome very quickly. G RT * Tracking #: 82E870EF7C26664B9E75F2A35B1CBF90BA0D8D9E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Like a Mac? :) I dislike Macs for many other reasons, but they have app management down much better than Bill G. -Original Message- From: Matt Pobursky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:09 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0400, Watnoski, Michael wrote: Greetings all, Another two cents: Protel has been my biggest headache as far as crashes due to upgrades of other programs. I would expect that if Protel needed specific versions of .dlls to run, it should have written them and not used the Microsoft versions that are likely to be updated on a regular basis. I am Actually, they should just put ALL their ancillary config files, required DLL's and such in the Protel owned and created directory. End of problem. Again, not very defensive programming practices. DLL Sharing and extensive use of the Windows Registry looks good in theory, but in practice on a typical Windows system DLL Hell rears it's ugly head in a hurry. With disk space being almost irrelevant these days, there's no excuse to not segregate your program and config files from the rest of the system. Also, uninstalls become as simple as deleting the program's directory. Simple and clean. Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems * Tracking #: 3A02FAD5548DDA4D84D3D083928F3ED2AD2D5BFC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:12:18 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: I have only had 1 crash of Protel 99SE in the year or so I've been running it under Win 2K. That day, I had been chopping parts out of a bunch of libraries, and putting them into other libraries, and all sorts of odd things that I don't do very often. Exactly. This is the sort of thing I do a lot and I don't think it's reasonable for Protel to crash simply by cutting and pasting between designs or libraries. My PCB designer tells me a lot of his crashes are caused by copying components between PCB layouts and libraries. Seems to me this is a very common activity for design people to be doing -- I have reused sections of designs regularly since I started using EDA tools and I'm not going to stop now! At the very least, I think if Protel has a problem with something you are trying to copy/paste it ought to catch it BEFORE it crashes and give you some kind of error message (indeed there is really something wrong with the entity you're copying). If the data is bad, why wasn't it found out in the source design you are copying from? Ideally, any weird entity should have been identified and dealt with when it was entered into the design file. This kind of thing is pretty hard to blame on Microsoft or faulty hardware. I got an invalid intruction or such dialog box, closed all the files, and everything was ok. That is the only time I have had a (program) error of any sort since changing to Win 2K. I've seen that too. I've also had several situations where the program would crash just reopening the design after such a crash and never recover. The only solution was to revert to a backup file and create a new part in the library then place it on the schematic. In my experience, Protel often acts flaky once I've had such an error. Shutting down Protel then re-opening it usually clears whatever problem it had. Anytime I get an Exception or Access error from Protel I always close the program and restart it. Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems * Tracking #: 15D3EC9EB6F41D4782D5C0A25057D0E43F8F383E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Well said, Ian. While I am sure Jami is an experienced designer, and does have some valid points about bugs and features, his manner is frankly offensive. Damon Kelly Hardware Engineer -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 18:51 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start! On 11:24 PM 31/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? I've had enough of your rudeness. A lot of people have been trying to be constructive in the face of what is simply rudeness. I firmly think you should go back over the emails you have sent over the last few weeks and the replies. This is especially galling as some of us have gone out of our way to assist you and you simply throw back flack. I have not been responding to the goading you have been attempting. It is beneath me. I have admitted that I made a mistake in thinking you were beta testing DXP. Your were not. I was wrong, I said so. I am not sure you on going attitide is related to that but if it is please lets move on. However, your insistence that you are right in some matters that are, frankly, a matter of opinion, is simply foolish and damaging to your standing. You seem to want to call all aspects of Protel that do not conform to your way as bugs. Witness: 1) You have a preference for the PgUp and PgDn zoom actions to re-centre the screen. You call this a bug. Others prefer it. Others are told they are wrong. You make a claim the *my* server, that I wrote to calm your original onslaught on joining this forum some time ago, was an admission by me that it is a bug. And then you denigrate my denial that it is anything of the sort. I did you a favour, OK pal. I spent my time, doing something for you (yep just for you), to show you it could be done and to help you out. (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:32:34 -0700) 2) You have a problem with a mouse and key shortcuts. This is in fact a known bug in Protel but the solution is related to bugs in the mouse driver that you were supplied with your computer. Known driver bugs. Known solution. Yet you harp on this endlessly. Others attempt to explain this in a calm manner. You SHOUT at them. (Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:21 -0700) 3) You call the formatting in Protels PP format a bug. Others are able to use the PP format but you can't, so it is a bug. Sure, you have to structure you library correctly. Bug exactly what is a bug. (Are right-hand drive vehicles buggy, BTW?) 4) You made a statement that implied you were surprised when someone came back with a contrary view to yours some time later. You had taken their previous silence as you having convinced them (rather than the more likely case of you having simply annoyed them). (Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:18:43 -0700) 5) You repeat statements in a fashion only likely to raise tempers, and do nothing for sensible discussion (Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:51:38 -0700) 6) You confuse motives, and then argue over the denials. (Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:44:46 -0700). This gives me the appearance of arrogance, maybe you do not wish to convey that. 7) You are very ready to get personal. (Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:40:59 -0700). What is especially galling about this is that the subject at the time, that you attempted to confuse (deliberately or not) are not related. The auto-pan bug in Protel is not related to the manner in which PgUp and PgDn zoom operates. 8) You confuse missing features with bugs in the program and then proceed to add snipe comments within your email (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:23:08 -0700) I think, you need to: a) learn to separate bugs from other failings b) stop being rude and arrogant c) start discussing things in a sane fashion Other issues: 1) referring to DXP you stated Realistically, it will almost surely be released prior to October 1st, whether it is ready or not, so as to comply with the promises made to all those who bought into ATS, so that they will sign up for yet another year. (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:40:44 -0700). I do not recall seeing a public admission that you were wrong by three quarters of a year. 2) In contrast to some of your recent statements (re: Protel on a new Dell computer with new mouse etc), you have previously stated To give credit where credit is due, the undocumented feature dates back far beyond Microsoft and Bill Gates to at least the early days of IBM. (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:31:10 -0700
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On 04:09 PM 1/08/2002 -0500, Matt Pobursky said: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0400, Watnoski, Michael wrote: Greetings all, Another two cents: Protel has been my biggest headache as far as crashes due to upgrades of other programs. I would expect that if Protel needed specific versions of .dlls to run, it should have written them and not used the Microsoft versions that are likely to be updated on a regular basis. I am Actually, they should just put ALL their ancillary config files, required DLL's and such in the Protel owned and created directory. End of problem. Actually it isn't - at least until Win XP came along. Pretty much only one DLL of a certain name can exist in memory pre-XP. Win XP now allows different versions of a DLL to exist in memory (I think). This is the MS solution to DLL hell. Again, not very defensive programming practices. Somewhat forced by the OS in this case but I agree that, at least historically Protel products have not been very defensive. But do remember that the user community was split in 1999 as to whether the application should trade speed for stability. Ian * Tracking #: 359C05030908664CBC51CCEC9FEA08FC302B19E6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Matt, I agree, that kind of thing should be immediately looked at by Protel programmers. I think it's a little late to complain about anything with 99SE and expect something to be done about it. However, if a known 99SE (or 98 or whatever) bug has propagated into DXP, then we should scream to have it fixed. Tony Exactly. This is the sort of thing I do a lot and I don't think it's reasonable for Protel to crash simply by cutting and pasting between designs or libraries. My PCB designer tells me a lot of his crashes are caused by copying components between PCB layouts and libraries. Seems to me this is a very common activity for design people to be doing -- I have reused sections of designs regularly since I started using EDA tools and I'm not going to stop now! At the very least, I think if Protel has a problem with something you are trying to copy/paste it ought to catch it BEFORE it crashes and give you some kind of error message (indeed there is really something wrong with the entity you're copying). If the data is bad, why wasn't it found out in the source design you are copying from? Ideally, any weird entity should have been identified and dealt with when it was entered into the design file. This kind of thing is pretty hard to blame on Microsoft or faulty hardware. * Tracking #: 614ECD264D0F2040B0636E74FE89FA1C55FD64E3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!
Ian, well said. People have tried to hint before that it has gone over the top. Igor -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 6:51 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start! On 11:24 PM 31/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you? I've had enough of your rudeness. A lot of people have been trying to be constructive in the face of what is simply rudeness. I firmly think you should go back over the emails you have sent over the last few weeks and the replies. This is especially galling as some of us have gone out of our way to assist you and you simply throw back flack. I have not been responding to the goading you have been attempting. It is beneath me. I have admitted that I made a mistake in thinking you were beta testing DXP. Your were not. I was wrong, I said so. I am not sure you on going attitide is related to that but if it is please lets move on. However, your insistence that you are right in some matters that are, frankly, a matter of opinion, is simply foolish and damaging to your standing. You seem to want to call all aspects of Protel that do not conform to your way as bugs. Witness: 1) You have a preference for the PgUp and PgDn zoom actions to re-centre the screen. You call this a bug. Others prefer it. Others are told they are wrong. You make a claim the *my* server, that I wrote to calm your original onslaught on joining this forum some time ago, was an admission by me that it is a bug. And then you denigrate my denial that it is anything of the sort. I did you a favour, OK pal. I spent my time, doing something for you (yep just for you), to show you it could be done and to help you out. (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:32:34 -0700) 2) You have a problem with a mouse and key shortcuts. This is in fact a known bug in Protel but the solution is related to bugs in the mouse driver that you were supplied with your computer. Known driver bugs. Known solution. Yet you harp on this endlessly. Others attempt to explain this in a calm manner. You SHOUT at them. (Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:21 -0700) 3) You call the formatting in Protels PP format a bug. Others are able to use the PP format but you can't, so it is a bug. Sure, you have to structure you library correctly. Bug exactly what is a bug. (Are right-hand drive vehicles buggy, BTW?) 4) You made a statement that implied you were surprised when someone came back with a contrary view to yours some time later. You had taken their previous silence as you having convinced them (rather than the more likely case of you having simply annoyed them). (Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:18:43 -0700) 5) You repeat statements in a fashion only likely to raise tempers, and do nothing for sensible discussion (Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:51:38 -0700) 6) You confuse motives, and then argue over the denials. (Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:44:46 -0700). This gives me the appearance of arrogance, maybe you do not wish to convey that. 7) You are very ready to get personal. (Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:40:59 -0700). What is especially galling about this is that the subject at the time, that you attempted to confuse (deliberately or not) are not related. The auto-pan bug in Protel is not related to the manner in which PgUp and PgDn zoom operates. 8) You confuse missing features with bugs in the program and then proceed to add snipe comments within your email (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:23:08 -0700) I think, you need to: a) learn to separate bugs from other failings b) stop being rude and arrogant c) start discussing things in a sane fashion Other issues: 1) referring to DXP you stated Realistically, it will almost surely be released prior to October 1st, whether it is ready or not, so as to comply with the promises made to all those who bought into ATS, so that they will sign up for yet another year. (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:40:44 -0700). I do not recall seeing a public admission that you were wrong by three quarters of a year. 2) In contrast to some of your recent statements (re: Protel on a new Dell computer with new mouse etc), you have previously stated To give credit where credit is due, the undocumented feature dates back far beyond Microsoft and Bill Gates to at least the early days of IBM. (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:31:10 -0700) The quote goes on...and the context here is not as simple as this brief quote suggests. Point is, you have recognised that software is not perfect, yet in some recent claims you have suggested that your new Dell with your new mouse was not the source
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Yep, or like any of the various *nix flavors. There's just no reason to expect Windows and other applications to respect your library or config files when placed in common areas. (Do I sound paranoid? ;-) I prefer to think of it as cautious...) Of course, leaving other's library files alone is good library form too. I've started writing all my Windows code in this style, installing all required library files in my own directory and using text-only config files also in my application's directory. Many shareware packages do too -- and guess what? I have less trouble with shareware than any other kind of software. BTW, I'm no big fan of Mac's either but mostly because of their business model/tactics. On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:46:04 -0700, Tony Karavidas wrote: Like a Mac? :) I dislike Macs for many other reasons, but they have app management down much better than Bill G. * Tracking #: BAF52CD382A14E4B98BDC6B6E8CCAB7AA61E8B6F * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Tony, Sorry for the delayed response - just now catching up. See below - - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Just because some software 'comes with the system' doesn't mean it's correct or the latests. If you install Win2000 TODAY, you'll get IE4 or IE5 with it. (I don't remember the exact version) It was current at the time of manufacture, but it's not the latest with BUG fixes, security patches, etc. Your mouse driver might be 'old.' What version MS mouse driver is on that system the moment after you installed it? What version is available NOW on the MS site?? Yeah, cars have standard equipment and car manufacturers also recall product because it wasn't quite right. Maybe the mouse driver up until recently wasn't quite right. snip Wholly irrelevant, and wholly misses the point. Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Is it too much to ask for you to lay all of your other presuppositions and arguements aside for just a moment and look at that simple sentance, and understand what it means. It really is not that complicated at all. Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! JaMi * Tracking #: 39285FFF9074EC4791039D6B4299F99C5251D487 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when they are not the root cause. You are so adamant about Protel being the problem. I found it funny that several people showed you real world examples of how it's possible you are wrong and yet you still refuse to accept the notion that it might be the mouse driver. I'm sure DXP will give you lots of fuel. Have a good one, Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:52 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Tony, Sorry for the delayed response - just now catching up. See below - - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Just because some software 'comes with the system' doesn't mean it's correct or the latests. If you install Win2000 TODAY, you'll get IE4 or IE5 with it. (I don't remember the exact version) It was current at the time of manufacture, but it's not the latest with BUG fixes, security patches, etc. Your mouse driver might be 'old.' What version MS mouse driver is on that system the moment after you installed it? What version is available NOW on the MS site?? Yeah, cars have standard equipment and car manufacturers also recall product because it wasn't quite right. Maybe the mouse driver up until recently wasn't quite right. snip Wholly irrelevant, and wholly misses the point. Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! Is it too much to ask for you to lay all of your other presuppositions and arguements aside for just a moment and look at that simple sentance, and understand what it means. It really is not that complicated at all. Nothing crashes but Protel ! ! ! JaMi * Tracking #: 39285FFF9074EC4791039D6B4299F99C5251D487 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
See comments added below... - Original Message - From: Fabian Hartery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Joel, I will jump in to the fire on this one to say that 99SE is completely stable on my machine. On the P-CAD subject, I hate it's ridiculous library management regime that requires a pristene netlist before design work can go to the circuit board level. The number of short cuts that must be remembered to become proficent in this package is unbearable. Like Tony, I am a one man designer that has to emcompass all this own design support. That is where the DDB design does not have me running all over the place to track the proper libraries with an archived design. I am not a all-in-one, concept to design to production engineer. I am a CAD designer with a specialty in PCB Layout. I have worked with SEVERAL non-PCB CAD packages. NONE, that is right, NONE of which have been nearly as tempermental as any of the PCB layout packages. Now, that having been said... 99SE is most certainly a step (albeit a somewhat slight step) above the package I developed my skills on, P-CAD 8.5. I am not going to go into the facts in great detail. But only to say that 99SE has made my life easier in some, perhaps even many regards and left me with some completely different concerns than those I had when using 8.5. When I see reports like all was well and then cames Protel, I kindly ask to see a listing of software packages that have been installed, provided that this comment it is not taken as a request for personal intrusion. I have heard of the potential for some programs to possess memory leaks and from writing code, I know of it's existence. So... some programs never really shutdown ! I can't blame Altium for someone else's slop. As to this comment... I haven't a problem with listing the software that I originally installed on my PC. However to question the trustworthiness of my statement, this I find a bit insulting. To say the very least! Prog's as follows: (in order of installation) ~Win 98SE ~Office 2000 ~AutoCAD 2002 ~Steinberg Cubase 5 (music creation s'ware) ~Maya ~Traktor DJ (music manipulation s'ware) ~Palm Synch ~WinMX 3.22 (PNP s'ware) before this is attacked as the problem, incoming files are stored to CD not HD. ~Zone Alarm Pro ~Deep Paint ~Photoshop 7.0 ~Acrobat 5 ~WinCDR In a similar light, I once installed some Norton stuff. When I let it self configure my system for maximum performance it trashed my system into the dirt. Virus scan managers are yet another pox as they hide in sweet memory locations. Since Protel is a CPU intensive package, dingling around in the background is not appreciated by this s/w. I can make my machine easily hang if I keep ump-deen windows open and try to click at them as fast as can. I simply chose to let Protel do it's job first. I maintain my system myself. I know that anytime I allow a s'ware package to configure my system it will configure with complete bias to the package that was allow to do so. Thank you for the input nonetheless. As to keeping windows open and the ability to make a machine hang-up... I have yet to have to open 99SE on this PC (aside from confirming the install) and it was only after I had installed 99SE that I got a blue screen. Argue this all you choose. The fact remains. I could run my DJ s'ware while doing animation in Maya without any problems. That is no longer the case. And the only thing that changed was the addition of 99SE and SP6. The mouse problem stated here seems to be a Microsoft problem. Protel's creation was before that time. What came first ? The car or petrol ? I accept to get the best out of Protel I have to use compatible video cards and mice. When an ATI card gave me a headache, I used a Matrox G550 and was laughing again. Sig I really hate to see whining on this list. With no antaganism meant, if Protel is a problem, it is only logical to try a different CAD package. I have configured my work PC according to the non-standard established by Protel and have gotten the problems to a tolerable minimum. They do exist even after making my machine fit the s'ware. And whining? Perhaps Sir, if you've elected to view my inputs as whining instead of the original intent, (being only to share my what I have encountered while I have been a user of a s'ware package for which we all use and few of us understand entirely) you should look within your understanding of the purpose of this group. Not to mention taking a closer look at the content of my original writings. And had I not already invested several thousand dollars and hours into this package, then perhaps another CAD package would be the answer... But those matters, Mr. Hartery, would in fact make such a statement on your part completely illogical and quite unfounded. Being as you haven't the knowledge of my system, software
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Please See my comments below: As to this comment... I haven't a problem with listing the software that I originally installed on my PC. However to question the trustworthiness of my statement, this I find a bit insulting. To say the very least! Prog's as follows: (in order of installation) ~Win 98SE ~Office 2000 Joel, my comments were meant to be 'anti-inflamatory'. I apologize to any offence taken. No one who has ever reported problems to this group has reported a complete system set-up to my knowledge. Personally, I think that it is 'none of my business that' I know your s/w configuration. Since you have freely disclosed this information, it might trigger an insightful thought from some one within this group. For instance, I was happily running Office 97 under NT when the computer guys decided to give me an upgrade to Office 2000. Whether this event was related or not with other upgrades, shortly thereafter I got a failure to launch a processes at every boot. A friend who had a similar problem commented that it was a license server being launched on his machine. However, the applications s/w was no longer in existence. With another NT problem, using service pack 6 crippled my machine on a large job due to a extraordinary number of page faults being generated. A slow machine, a lousey video card did not help. I retreated to SP5 and I managed to finish that job after getting a G550 that worked 'ok'. I maintain my system myself. I know that anytime I allow a s'ware package to configure my system it will configure with complete bias to the package that was allow to do so. Thank you for the input nonetheless. As to keeping windows open and the ability to make a machine hang-up... I have yet to have to open 99SE on this PC (aside from confirming the install) and it was only after I had installed 99SE that I got a blue screen. Argue this all you choose. The fact remains. I could run my DJ s'ware while doing animation in Maya without any problems. That is no longer the case. And the only thing that changed was the addition of 99SE and SP6. While the IT people govern my machine at work, I am not foreign to building a system from scratch. My general comment is, Protel is a buss hog and this puts both weight on the buss and the CPU. Protel will cry out if that support disappears under intensive work. And whining? Perhaps Sir, if you've elected to view my inputs as whining instead of the original intent, (being only to share my what I have encountered while I have been a user of a s'ware package for which we all use and few of us understand entirely) you should look within your understanding of the purpose of this group. Not to mention taking a closer look at the content of my original writings. My term 'whining' was not meant towards your problems. The subject of the mouse scenerio and it's Protel's/Microsoft's fault became an exhausting read. Some threads are not solving problems, but otherwise raising the signal to noise ratio of the group. I most think everyone in this group tries to solve problems for others the best way they can. There are alot of helpful posters here. The subject of Dell's and other platforms has come up too. Personally, I like to know what is in the box. While I do run a Dell at work and it seems ok, I have an ASUS board (long in the tooth P5AB) at home, This was purchased in lieu of a researched experience of a friend. The subject of motherboard stabilty and what often works is often trashed out at motherboard websites. I have built computers systems from scratch before. I have seen mother boards which were good and those which are not so stable. I have experienced video card problems and fixed them. In this light, I have accepted the compromise to use compliant hardware to make Protel work better. This is a personal decision some people do not wish to accept. And had I not already invested several thousand dollars and hours into this package, then perhaps another CAD package would be the answer... But those matters, Mr. Hartery, would in fact make such a statement on your part completely illogical and quite unfounded. Being as you haven't the knowledge of my system, software, ablities nor my understanding of the 99SE s'ware at the time in which you made such a ridiculous statement. However, thank you for your suggestion and your personal opinions as they relate to my inputs. I have seen at least one user (with Protel 98) thrash around like a fish out of water. My system, however, was just humming along. I could not relate to his experience. This seems to be the case here. I am sure you would agree, Altium should be more active in debunking your problems when they have seemed to go to the extreme. There should be a recommended piece of benchmark s/w to insure this is the case. I lament for your investment, but in having knowledge of you set-up is something I never did claim. When some of us on this group run reasonably stable platforms and others
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
For instance, I was happily running Office 97 under NT when the computer guys decided to give me an upgrade to Office 2000. Whether this event was related or not with other upgrades, shortly thereafter I got a failure to Speaking of upgrades breaking things, I once had a machine that would occasionally crash running Protel under Windows 95, and I decided to upgrade it to Windows 2000 that was then in Beta. Windows 2000 died immediately every time. Investigating revealed that I had been using the machine with a SIMM module that had 3 pins not soldered for over a year! I fixed the SIMM and the problems went away. It seems Protel was the only thing under Win95 that actually used the highest blocks of memory, while Windows 2000 used all of memory right away. So sometimes a software problem is really hardware. Rob * Tracking #: C4372B298CC1C64596AFB8AC8ADFCBABB0D01FA5 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance, I was happily running Office 97 under NT when the computer guys decided to give me an upgrade to Office 2000. Whether this event was related or not with other upgrades, shortly thereafter I got a failure to Speaking of upgrades breaking things, I once had a machine that would occasionally crash running Protel under Windows 95, and I decided to upgrade it to Windows 2000 that was then in Beta. Windows 2000 died immediately every time. Investigating revealed that I had been using the machine with a SIMM module that had 3 pins not soldered for over a year! I fixed the SIMM and the problems went away. It seems Protel was the only thing under Win95 that actually used the highest blocks of memory, while Windows 2000 used all of memory right away. So sometimes a software problem is really hardware. I think there is really a LOT more of this going on than people are aware of. I had an experience very early in my migration to Linux that brought this out. Long before that, I was in the middle of my biggest PCB design up to that time, using the last DOS version of Accel's Tango PCB. Things started going wrong faster than I could fix them, ie. half the board being lost when you closed and reopened the file, etc. So, I switched to Protel, which we had been evaluating for a while. I finished that project, and eventually the computer was retired to my basement. I tried to fire up Linux on it to experiment, and compiles of the kernel would consistantly quit with a signal 11, which is basically traceable to a bad page table lookup. Another identical motherboard worked fine. Obviously, I had been running Windows 3.1 and PCB cad software for several years on bad hardware! And, I'd been blaming the software for all of it. (Yes, the repeatable bugs I had with Tango WERE the software, I still remember how to make the program malfunction in about 5 keystrokes!) Jon * Tracking #: 7F3FE30AF03A314B9082E4D28B701C9B14E596D5 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Jami, don't take it personally. This is a discussion forum and not a winner-gets-to-live arena. We have several Dell machines with identical HW and identical SW. The only difference are the M$ and Protel licence numbers. Some (in fact only one) have mouse problems in Protel, some don't. So, what's a problem here? Igor -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 26 July 2002 9:11 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Gisbert, Please se my response intermixed with your comment - JaMi - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip When you install a piece of hardware (e.g. a mouse), the driver software either goes with the hardware product, or you may chose to install the Microsoft driver (if supplied). I'm with you so far, but I believe that you already missed the problem - I did not install any Microsoft Mouse or Intellimouse Software - It came with the system - Like buying a car - it came with standard equipment - I did not install a new transmission - I did not install a new Mouse - I did not install a new Mouse driver. My company bought a standard system with a standard mouse and a standard mouse driver. That standard system was a Dell, that standard mouse was a Microsoft Wheel mouse, and that standard mouse driver was Microsoft Intellimouse. The application SW (like Protel) should not need to mess around with any special HW feature (like it used to be in old DOS times), Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. Continue. but just call system (Windows) functions and leave the rest to the OS. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Please Continue. I am just a simple-minded hardware developer, but if you state that the application works fine No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No! Thats the Problem - it didn't work - Protel crashed! PROTEL CRASHED - AND ONLY PROTEL! with a Logitech mouse and does not with a Microsoft mouse, there cannot be any question about who is to blame. Well - Lets stop and look at this for a minute. The Microsoft Mouse is in fact the Industry Standard Mouse. Apple stole the design from Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) and tried to say that they invented it, and even tried to sue Microsoft, but lost. Microsoft is and has always been the defacto standard mouse in the industry ever since the mouse has been used as an input device (and yes I do have a Microsoft Bus Mouse). If you don't like this assesment, don't blame me, go talk to all of the other mouse manufacturers in the world who put the words Microsoft Compatible on all of their mouse products. Enter Logitech. Logitech made a Mouse with Three Buttons. From the very first day, the Logitech Mouse was never compatible with the Microsoft Mouse or any of the Microsoft Mouse Drivers. However, Logitech did make their own Software Drivers for their Logitech Mouse that made their Logitech Mouse act like a Microsoft Mouse, and in that sense, the Logictech Mouse was deemed to be Microsoft Mouse Compatible. Logitech has always had their own Mouse Drivers which have thru the years have kept the Logitech Mouse compatible, although today, the actual Logitech Mouse and Microsoft Mouse are actually somewhat (although not completely) hardware compatible. From the perspective of virtually all systems around today except Apple, Microsoft developed the mouse, and Microsoft also developed the mouse driver. Microsoft is the standard. OK - So here we are with a standard Dell System, and a standard Microsoft Wheel mouse, and a Standard Microsoft Mouse Driver - Let us please continue. (Please note that while there is a parallel post arguing that Dell shipped an older driver with the system (and I will answer that post seperately), there appears to have never been any asertions by anyone, including the author of that post, that any Dell system ever at any time had any problem with any other applications while it had that mouse driver except for Protel.) I have no preference for any OS; I want a working system, that's all. Protel does have preferences, but Windows 2000 is one of them, lets continue. I just don't care about who writes drivers, be it the OS people, be it the hardware supplier. Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. Continue. I dare to demand from SW the same as anyone takes for granted from any HW product they purchase: it shall function as specified. Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. THIS is why I say that Protel has the Bug! In consequence: If Microsoft mice don't work with Microsoft SW (MS is the OS provider, But in fact the Microsoft Mouse does in fact work CORRECTLY with my Dell system and with My MS OS and EVERY OTHER APPLICATION that I have ever run on it. O N L Y P R O T E L C R A S H E S ! ! ! ! ! N O T H I N G B E S I D E S P R O T E L C R A S H E S ! ! ! ! don't buy mice
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Thanks... In addition: Maybe they are a member of MDN, and simply choose to ignore the problem, and let others in this forum point the finger of blame at Microsoft. JaMi Consulting MSDN costs x$ per issue above 1, or 2 per year. I think Protel is just too cheap to make to call. On top of being too cheap to fix the problem in the first place which shouldn't even need a call to M$. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Igor Gmitrovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Jami, don't take it personally. This is a discussion forum and not a winner-gets-to-live arena. We have several Dell machines with identical HW and identical SW. The only difference are the M$ and Protel licence numbers. Some (in fact only one) have mouse problems in Protel, some don't. So, what's a problem here? Igor -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 26 July 2002 9:11 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Gisbert, Please se my response intermixed with your comment - JaMi - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip When you install a piece of hardware (e.g. a mouse), the driver software either goes with the hardware product, or you may chose to install the Microsoft driver (if supplied). I'm with you so far, but I believe that you already missed the problem - I did not install any Microsoft Mouse or Intellimouse Software - It came with the system - Like buying a car - it came with standard equipment - I did not install a new transmission - I did not install a new Mouse - I did not install a new Mouse driver. My company bought a standard system with a standard mouse and a standard mouse driver. That standard system was a Dell, that standard mouse was a Microsoft Wheel mouse, and that standard mouse driver was Microsoft Intellimouse. The application SW (like Protel) should not need to mess around with any special HW feature (like it used to be in old DOS times), Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. Continue. but just call system (Windows) functions and leave the rest to the OS. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Please Continue. I am just a simple-minded hardware developer, but if you state that the application works fine No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No! Thats the Problem - it didn't work - Protel crashed! PROTEL CRASHED - AND ONLY PROTEL! with a Logitech mouse and does not with a Microsoft mouse, there cannot be any question about who is to blame. Well - Lets stop and look at this for a minute. The Microsoft Mouse is in fact the Industry Standard Mouse. Apple stole the design from Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) and tried to say that they invented it, and even tried to sue Microsoft, but lost. Microsoft is and has always been the defacto standard mouse in the industry ever since the mouse has been used as an input device (and yes I do have a Microsoft Bus Mouse). If you don't like this assesment, don't blame me, go talk to all of the other mouse manufacturers in the world who put the words Microsoft Compatible on all of their mouse products. Enter Logitech. Logitech made a Mouse with Three Buttons. From the very first day, the Logitech Mouse was never compatible with the Microsoft Mouse or any of the Microsoft Mouse Drivers. However, Logitech did make their own Software Drivers for their Logitech Mouse that made their Logitech Mouse act like a Microsoft Mouse, and in that sense, the Logictech Mouse was deemed to be Microsoft Mouse Compatible. Logitech has always had their own Mouse Drivers which have thru the years have kept the Logitech Mouse compatible, although today, the actual Logitech Mouse and Microsoft Mouse are actually somewhat (although not completely) hardware compatible. From the perspective of virtually all systems around today except Apple, Microsoft developed the mouse, and Microsoft also developed the mouse driver. Microsoft is the standard. OK - So here we are with a standard Dell System, and a standard Microsoft Wheel mouse, and a Standard Microsoft Mouse Driver - Let us please continue. (Please note that while there is a parallel post arguing that Dell shipped an older driver with the system (and I will answer that post seperately), there appears to have never been any asertions by anyone, including the author of that post, that any Dell system ever at any time had any problem with any other applications while it had that mouse driver except for Protel.) I have no preference for any OS; I want a working system, that's all. Protel does have preferences, but Windows 2000 is one of them, lets continue. I just don't care about who writes drivers, be it the OS people, be it the hardware supplier. Yes, Yes, I
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it Dude, a Dell's gettin' you... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * Tracking #: E3CB483E8D4BC3448DB4FC5BB6F89216C6C55334 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Alright... I stayed outta this until my name was mentioned. So here it goes... Protel has, by far, caused more problems than ANY other software I have tryed to use in all my years as in computers! Be it freeware, shareware or a high $ graphics package. It is simply the worst. Just as a test I installed every bit of s'ware that I use on my home PC... (except 99SE) for three weeks straight, not a problem one! I finally added 99SE... and like magic... blue screens of deaths, fatal exceptions and the like were abundant. I don't care whos problem it is... I only know that I and we have to deal with them! Now while 99SE pays my bills... I would be very hard pressed to recommend it (let alone D-o X-pect P-roblems) even to people I don't like! Is it really that dificult to create a package that is not as messy as 99SE? (for the lurkers) As for DXP- when you get bad food AND bad service at a resturant... are you gonna go back and ask for the same sever and order something that is more expensive and easier to screw-up that the first meal? COME ON GUYS! Get it right and then work on the new stuff. - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Rob, Almost exactly 6 months ago, on Jan 23, you said almost the exact same thing in a reply to a post in this forum by Joel Hammer with the Subject of Is this normal ???. In that post, as in this one, you assert that the mouse problem is primarily Microsofts, and secondarily Dells. On the following day, Jan 24, I myself posted a reply to that subject, in which I outlined my experience with the mouse problem, and in which post I disagreed with your assessment of the problem and assignment of responsibility to Microsoft and Dell. While there were numerous different responses to both my post, and continued responses to the original subject thread, there was not so much as a word in response from you as to my assertations that infact the problem did not necessarily lie with Microsoft and / or Dell, but actually with Protel. I assumed that you had simply silently agreed that the problem had Protel's name on it. Apparently not. Might I respectfully submit that for each seat of Protel that i-has sold, their are probably at least one thousand, if not several thousand, computers sold by Dell, and probably at least ten times that many Windows Operating Systems (with mouse drivers) sold. You attribute the problem to the fact that Dell was shipping old obsolete mouse drivers with their new systems. Just how many of those thousands upon thousands upon thousands of systems that Dell shipped with those old obsolete mouse drivers do you think it would have taken to have a problem with the mouse driver before Dell Technical Support would have known about it and at least had their own internal bug reports listing the problem within their own Technical Support department. I doubt that it would have taken more than one or two. I am sure that Dell would not have tolerated their own Technical Support personnel ignoring the problem. I am also sure that the problem would have been resolved instantly with Microsoft's help, and that Dell would have updated the driver immediately for all future product shipments. I would respectfully maintain that Dell sells far too many computer systems and has far too much money riding on their reputation, to ignore a problem such as this where a system totally crashes when the mouse wheel is touched. It is just inconceiveable to me that Dell would continue to ship an obsolete mouse driver, if there was even the slightest hint that that mouse driver could be causing the slightest problem. When my company contacted Dell in July of last year, they had absolutely no hint of any kind of a problem with the mouse wheel mouse, or with any of their mouse driverrs, and never even suggested that the driver needed any updating. To me, that speaks volumes toward the apparent fact that there were thousands and thousands of Dell systems out there in the real world that had never had a single problem, despite the fact that they may have an old obsolete mouse driver installed. My system, or should I say our systems (the company had 3 identical Dell systems), never even once had ever had a problem with any other application, except Protel, as far as the mouse was concerned. You have never seemed to indicate that you have ever had any problems on your Dell system with the mouse and the old mouse driver, with any other application except Protel. Doesn't this seem to say something to you and others in this forum. There is still a continual stream of reports in this forum of systems being unstable and crashing on a regular basis, with no apparent known cause of apparent solution. Doesn't this seem to say something to you and others
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
It just kills me that so many people are telling you (Jami) similar things without being in Protel's camp and you still refuse to believe it's POSSIBLE the blame lies elsewhere... No one on this list says Protel is free of bugs. We ALL KNOW Protel has bugs, like most all apps. We just don't hate 'em like you seem to because of this issue. * Tracking #: D9439E09FEA46A4C9E84AF49FE621CE4C3341FD4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Joel, I will jump in to the fire on this one to say that 99SE is completely stable on my machine. On the P-CAD subject, I hate it's ridiculous library management regime that requires a pristene netlist before design work can go to the circuit board level. The number of short cuts that must be remembered to become proficent in this package is unbearable. Like Tony, I am a one man designer that has to emcompass all this own design support. That is where the DDB design does not have me running all over the place to track the proper libraries with an archived design. When I see reports like all was well and then cames Protel, I kindly ask to see a listing of software packages that have been installed, provided that this comment it is not taken as a request for personal intrusion. I have heard of the potential for some programs to possess memory leaks and from writing code, I know of it's existence. So... some programs never really shutdown ! I can't blame Altium for someone else's slop. In a similar light, I once installed some Norton stuff. When I let it self configure my system for maximum performance it trashed my system into the dirt. Virus scan managers are yet another pox as they hide in sweet memory locations. Since Protel is a CPU intensive package, dingling around in the background is not appreciated by this s/w. I can make my machine easily hang if I keep ump-deen windows open and try to click at them as fast as can. I simply chose to let Protel do it's job first. The mouse problem stated here seems to be a Microsoft problem. Protel's creation was before that time. What came first ? The car or petrol ? I accept to get the best out of Protel I have to use compatible video cards and mice. When an ATI card gave me a headache, I used a Matrox G550 and was laughing again. Sig I really hate to see whining on this list. With no antaganism meant, if Protel is a problem, it is only logical to try a different CAD package. I will expect DXP to have problems that will require several service packs to fix. I just hope that there is no cannabilizing of some advantegous features within 99SE like global editing. This will not be found within P-CAD. Fabe Fabian Hartery Research Engineer, B. Eng (Electrical) Guigne International Limited 63 Thorburn Road St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada A1B3M2 tel: 709-738-4070 fax: 709-738-4093 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.guigne.com This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies from your system; you should not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone. Any dissemination, distribution or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. We cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. * Tracking #: EB8526DA5959C140A6B610A8A42FE3835865830A * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
I probably did not respond because I got busy doing work and deleted the message without reading it as I do with the majority of messages on this list. Having worked for a major PC Manufacturer it in no way surprised me that Dell would ship an older driver. The driver they ship is what they get with Microsofts Windows 2000, which is the one that shipped with the original OEM Windows 2000. The only drivers they ship that are not part of Windows 2000 are the specific ones for the hardware they add that is not included in Windows 2000 OEM edition. This is the same old driver that comes with the Windows 2000 you buy off the shelf which if you look has not been changed in over a year. These driver problems are precisely why Microsoft came up with the AutoUpdate utitily. Now updates are done much easier and older drivers get updated sooner. Since much of Protel 99 was written before wheel mice were available it surpirsed me that it even worked at all with the wheel. Microsoft operating systems are a constantly moving target and Iam surprised more software doesn't break more often. When installing an Application updates system libraries you are asking for trouble and with Windows you tend to get it. This is why one of the first things I do with a new machine is check that the drivers are up to date. Rob * Tracking #: 84BA3C93D752BC44830DA7FB0BBCAA25E7AFB6FC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Just because some software 'comes with the system' doesn't mean it's correct or the latests. If you install Win2000 TODAY, you'll get IE4 or IE5 with it. (I don't remember the exact version) It was current at the time of manufacture, but it's not the latest with BUG fixes, security patches, etc. Your mouse driver might be 'old.' What version MS mouse driver is on that system the moment after you installed it? What version is available NOW on the MS site?? Yeah, cars have standard equipment and car manufacturers also recall product because it wasn't quite right. Maybe the mouse driver up until recently wasn't quite right. -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 4:11 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Gisbert, Please se my response intermixed with your comment - JaMi - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip When you install a piece of hardware (e.g. a mouse), the driver software either goes with the hardware product, or you may chose to install the Microsoft driver (if supplied). I'm with you so far, but I believe that you already missed the problem - I did not install any Microsoft Mouse or Intellimouse Software - It came with the system - Like buying a car - it came with standard equipment - I did not install a new transmission - I did not install a new Mouse - I did not install a new Mouse driver. My company bought a standard system with a standard mouse and a standard mouse driver. That standard system was a Dell, that standard mouse was a Microsoft Wheel mouse, and that standard mouse driver was Microsoft Intellimouse. The application SW (like Protel) should not need to mess around with any special HW feature (like it used to be in old DOS times), Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. Continue. but just call system (Windows) functions and leave the rest to the OS. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Please Continue. I am just a simple-minded hardware developer, but if you state that the application works fine No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No! Thats the Problem - it didn't work - Protel crashed! PROTEL CRASHED - AND ONLY PROTEL! with a Logitech mouse and does not with a Microsoft mouse, there cannot be any question about who is to blame. Well - Lets stop and look at this for a minute. The Microsoft Mouse is in fact the Industry Standard Mouse. Apple stole the design from Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) and tried to say that they invented it, and even tried to sue Microsoft, but lost. Microsoft is and has always been the defacto standard mouse in the industry ever since the mouse has been used as an input device (and yes I do have a Microsoft Bus Mouse). If you don't like this assesment, don't blame me, go talk to all of the other mouse manufacturers in the world who put the words Microsoft Compatible on all of their mouse products. Enter Logitech. Logitech made a Mouse with Three Buttons. From the very first day, the Logitech Mouse was never compatible with the Microsoft Mouse or any of the Microsoft Mouse Drivers. However, Logitech did make their own Software Drivers for their Logitech Mouse that made their Logitech Mouse act like a Microsoft Mouse, and in that sense, the Logictech Mouse was deemed to be Microsoft Mouse Compatible. Logitech has always had their own Mouse Drivers which have thru the years have kept the Logitech Mouse compatible, although today, the actual Logitech Mouse and Microsoft Mouse are actually somewhat (although not completely) hardware compatible. From the perspective of virtually all systems around today except Apple, Microsoft developed the mouse, and Microsoft also developed the mouse driver. Microsoft is the standard. OK - So here we are with a standard Dell System, and a standard Microsoft Wheel mouse, and a Standard Microsoft Mouse Driver - Let us please continue. (Please note that while there is a parallel post arguing that Dell shipped an older driver with the system (and I will answer that post seperately), there appears to have never been any asertions by anyone, including the author of that post, that any Dell system ever at any time had any problem with any other applications while it had that mouse driver except for Protel.) I have no preference for any OS; I want a working system, that's all. Protel does have preferences, but Windows 2000 is one of them, lets continue. I just don't care about who writes drivers, be it the OS people, be it the hardware supplier. Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. Continue. I dare to demand from SW the same as anyone takes for granted from any HW product they purchase: it shall function as specified. Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. THIS is why I say that Protel has the Bug
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Right on Steve!!! :) I could go for a beer about now! -Original Message- From: Stephen Casey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 5:35 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Wow - 52 mails in this thread (53 now!) I must say I've been thoroughly enjoying it, too. You can't beat a good, reasoned argument. Anyway, not wishing to get into the finer points of what is, and isn't, a bug, I think that your problem may be fixed by updating the Intellimouse software. I had a similar issue, and the update fixed it. I have had many issues where two products interact in some undesirable way, and in the main an update fixes it. Maybe it's not right, but it generally works, and it lets me do the same. Looking forward to further banter (number 54 and onwards!) - It's a shame we're not in a bar, talking about this over a few beers. Steve. -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 26 July 2002 12:11 To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Gisbert, Please se my response intermixed with your comment - JaMi - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip When you install a piece of hardware (e.g. a mouse), the driver software either goes with the hardware product, or you may chose to install the Microsoft driver (if supplied). I'm with you so far, but I believe that you already missed the problem - I did not install any Microsoft Mouse or Intellimouse Software - It came with the system - Like buying a car - it came with standard equipment - I did not install a new transmission - I did not install a new Mouse - I did not install a new Mouse driver. My company bought a standard system with a standard mouse and a standard mouse driver. That standard system was a Dell, that standard mouse was a Microsoft Wheel mouse, and that standard mouse driver was Microsoft Intellimouse. The application SW (like Protel) should not need to mess around with any special HW feature (like it used to be in old DOS times), Yes, Yes, I agree One Hundred Thousand Percent. Continue. but just call system (Windows) functions and leave the rest to the OS. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Please Continue. I am just a simple-minded hardware developer, but if you state that the application works fine No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No! Thats the Problem - it didn't work - Protel crashed! PROTEL CRASHED - AND ONLY PROTEL! with a Logitech mouse and does not with a Microsoft mouse, there cannot be any question about who is to blame. Well - Lets stop and look at this for a minute. The Microsoft Mouse is in fact the Industry Standard Mouse. Apple stole the design from Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) and tried to say that they invented it, and even tried to sue Microsoft, but lost. Microsoft is and has always been the defacto standard mouse in the industry ever since the mouse has been used as an input device (and yes I do have a Microsoft Bus Mouse). If you don't like this assesment, don't blame me, go talk to all of the other mouse manufacturers in the world who put the words Microsoft Compatible on all of their mouse products. Enter Logitech. Logitech made a Mouse with Three Buttons. From the very first day, the Logitech Mouse was never compatible with the Microsoft Mouse or any of the Microsoft Mouse Drivers. However, Logitech did make their own Software Drivers for their Logitech Mouse that made their Logitech Mouse act like a Microsoft Mouse, and in that sense, the Logictech Mouse was deemed to be Microsoft Mouse Compatible. Logitech has always had their own Mouse Drivers which have thru the years have kept the Logitech Mouse compatible, although today, the actual Logitech Mouse and Microsoft Mouse are actually somewhat (although not completely) hardware compatible. From the perspective of virtually all systems around today except Apple, Microsoft developed the mouse, and Microsoft also developed the mouse driver. Microsoft is the standard. OK - So here we are with a standard Dell System, and a standard Microsoft Wheel mouse, and a Standard Microsoft Mouse Driver - Let us please continue. (Please note that while there is a parallel post arguing that Dell shipped an older driver with the system (and I will answer that post seperately), there appears to have never been any asertions by anyone, including the author of that post, that any Dell system ever at any time had any problem with any other applications while it had that mouse driver except for Protel.) I have no preference for any OS; I want a working system, that's all. Protel does have preferences, but Windows 2000 is one of them, lets
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On 11:11 PM 24/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: Thank you Brian JaMi Brian is not talking about the same thing - this always seems to get confused. Brain is talking about Protel's on-going issue with auto-pan. I think we all call that broken bug time- about on a par with Excel's scrolling. This is unrelated to the fact that you would prefer the zoom function in Protel to also re-centre the display. Ian * Tracking #: CC536F24F54AAC4BA6974BB08CB7899E0AFCC2A7 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
I recommend the pragmatic approach. From Linux experiments I meanswhile have : 1 spare Serial mouse 1 spare PS/2 mouse 1 spare USB Mouse 1 spare Graphic card 1 spare SCSI card It takes less nerves than your approach and solves the problem faster - perhaps. Rene JaMi Smith wrote: [ mouse and bugs .. ] * Tracking #: 5C9449700D509F4A9192A04368C3262F73DF1E75 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Ian, I understand that, but the parallel is so obvious that I decided that I didn't need to prefix the comment with although it is not the exactly the same thing -. I actually started to do just that, write a prefix, and then said no, it's so obvious, you don't need that But the minute I pressed send I knew that there would be SOMEONE out there that would say something about it and give me a hard time. The only question was who. That someone was you. I guess I should expect nothing less. It really is parallel. It really is obvious. It really does directly apply. Once again, Thank you Brian, JaMi - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. On 11:11 PM 24/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: Thank you Brian JaMi Brian is not talking about the same thing - this always seems to get confused. Brain is talking about Protel's on-going issue with auto-pan. I think we all call that broken bug time- about on a par with Excel's scrolling. This is unrelated to the fact that you would prefer the zoom function in Protel to also re-centre the display. Ian * Tracking #: CC536F24F54AAC4BA6974BB08CB7899E0AFCC2A7 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? Isn't today more important than tomorrow or last year or...? Uhh, I've been workign too much... -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:24 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I though the Canadian ISO system was based on numeric priority. Starting with the most significant, year, leading to the least significant, day. Sort of like normal numbers. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:25:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? And you'd prefer times as MM:SS:HH? ;-) Personally, I'm out to get the whole world to adopt ISO-8601, which alows several formats, of which I prefer -MM-DD. That will sort correctly whether it's alphanumeric, or whatever. Are we getting a little OT here? Steve Hendrix * Tracking #: B826F43E5AAE904AB1745A14BD63CEC5DAD14077 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
clip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) I would almost be willing to bet that if all of the Logitech Mouse users out there were to reinstall their operating systems fresh and not reinstall their Mouseware, and scrounged another mouse with a wheel for a test (did not use the Logitech mouse) that 50% of them would find out that they have the problem. I'd like to see that. If protel could get a grip on the problem maybe they could fix it. How about a poll?? EVERYONE ON THIS LIST THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM SHOULD EMAIL THE LIST SO 'WE' CAN COUNT THEM. I did a design on an audio card that worked in all PCI Macintosh computers except for this one guy. We wanted to be pro-active and try and solve the problem just in case it was the 'tip of the iceberg' sort of thing. The customer agreed to ship his computer to us for evaluation and we could NOT figure it out in a reasonable time ( under 1 week) We purchased another similarly configured system and it worked on that one. We probably could have found it with enough time, but it wasn't worth the thousands of dollars the company was burning on it so we returned the computer and issues the guy a full refund and some brownie points. The problem YOU have may be hard for Protel to reproduce, period. While companies such as Microsoft do there best to see that different pieces of hardware from different suppliers all work the same in their Operating Systems, we all know that the simple truth of the matter is that they don't. Part of this is Microsoft, and part of this is the different manufacturers who write the different drivers for their own products. I agree, but then again, look how many bugs are in MS code? TONS. Yes it's a lot of code, but if you track driver updates, service packs, etc, you get the idea of how many problems are lurking. I could accept some of the Microsoft Bashing and pointing the blame elsewhere if in fact Protel / Altium would specify a Golden System (a specific brand of hardware in a specific configuration) that their software was guarenteed to work perfectly with, but they haven't and apparently won't. I therefore maintain that Protel / Altium is responsible for making sure that there software will work properly with any relativey new generic hardware running generic installations of the Operating Systems software they claim Protel will run on (Windows 95, 98, 2000, and NT), using generic periferials (any somewhat standard mouse (as in Microsoft), or printer (as in HP)). We all demand this this for any other software we buy, why not Protel. I wasn't MS bashing; I was saying it's not cut and dry Protel's fault. I completely agree!!! They should specify 1 or more systems that would be 'perfect' for 99SE. Shit, we spend $8000 on s/w, who cares what a system costs if it works reliably. snip 2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is still there snip I disagree completely. PADS PowerPCB does it the way you request and it sucks. I keep having to find the area of interest because it jumped somewhere on my screen. Yes, it's more or less in the center, but my eyes weren't in the center before the jump so I have to focus in on it. That isn't natural. I like the way Protel did it. It keeps the item in my original focus still in focus after the zoom operation. Funny that you mention your eyes and original focus. In reality, you have to completely re-focus on the new image after a zoom in or out irregardless of where the cursor is. Sorry, I wont buy this one. No I don't have to re-focus. When I'm looking at something, somewhere on my screen, I put the cursor THERE and press PageUP. Guess what? It zoomed in exactly where my eyes were positioned, and I do not have to refocus or hunt for position. BTW, there is no such word as irregardless. It is regardless. Most people look around at different points of an image such as that presented by the Protel display screen. and in fact usually zoom in or out so that they can observe either more of a certain portion of that image, or view a certain portion closer
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
OK everybody, this emoticon ;) generally means 'kidding', 'teasing', 'joshing', 'joking', 'pulling your leg', etc. It takes the seriousness OFF the preceding text. I think Ivan was 'pulling your leg' However, with 240V you probably have more electrocutions! -Original Message- From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:29 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Ivan, Writing dates as MM/DD/YY is the same as writing time as HH:SS:MM. It does not seem logical. There should be linear ascendence or descendence in the order of things, IMO. In Australia we have 240V/50Hz. Compared to your 120V/60Hz. We could discuss frequency, but one thing is sure, the current in your system is twice as high as in our system. That means your losses are four times as high. Whatever you do, you will always have higher electricity costs. It might not seem a big to you as an individual. On a national scale, it costs all of you a lot of dough. Metric system is based on a decimal numerical system, which is natural to humans. So we have reasons for what we are doing. What are your reasons for the things you do? You are just used to? Igor -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 12:24 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? Maybe the down under has something to do with it? ;-) From one episode of the Simpsons, when Lisa is helping Bart study for a geography test, he looks at a globe and says hey, I didn't know there's an island called Rand McNally in the Pacific Ocean. Lisa tells him that in Rand McNally, everyone walks on their noses, and hamburgers eat people. To which Bart replies Cool!. rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:36 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. * Tracking #: FEA6A5084AAA1B4FBBCEA608A0CD8D2459FF9143 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On 04:32 PM 23/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip I got tired of you complaining about it when you first joined the forum (and began slagging the software and those of us with different points of view) and showed you that you can have it any way you like. I don't use my server and it is not a bug fix in my mind. Not a bug fix? - semantics - not worth argueing over. Why can't you accept that Protel actually has some bugs, along with many many more features or whatever you want to call them that need to be fixed. JaMi, who maintains the User Bug database? Don't waffle on about me not thinking that there are no bugs in Protel. Of course there are bugs. In the past we have found that the way to get them fixed is to identify them, discuss them and then make lots of complaints about them. Similarly for feature changes. The voice of the group has much more weight than one loner's rant. Your method of engaging people is totally counter productive. You seem to think your are some all-encompassing authority and will refuse to accept that others have valid viewpoints, that make something you originally thought of as a bug as a simply your preference. If you made a bigger effort to engage others then you would probably find that you get a much better reception. You may think there are many apologists for Altium on this forum. Advice that you will probably swear over: By calming down and recognizing the difference between missing features (complex pads, lack of shorting entities etc), real bugs (poly pours violating clearance errors, list index out-of-bounds), and things you would prefer to be different (zooming), and discussing each in an appropriate manner you would find you get a better discussion going and you may well begin to influence the software. I note your comments in the thread on microstrips stating that people will jump on you if you call something a bug. Only if it is *not* a bug, and even then only if you are being obnoxious about it. My toaster doesn't know how to defrost bread. I want to use it to defrost bread. My toaster has a bug or a missing feature? Protel doesn't support ties (shorting entities). I want to use ties. Protel has a bug or a missing feature? A few physicists start to think the atomic-scale world is probablistic. Many others think they are wrong (including very well known and respected ones like Einstein). The few are proved correct and we have jobs in this field because of this. The few are right, the many are wrong. Protel zooms differently from other CAD packages. Maybe the many are wrong and the few are right? Just stop calling it a bug will you. Granted, you and some others may have actually grown accustomed to the weird behaviour of Protel when it zooms in and out, and actually like or prefer it, but that doesn't make it intuitive or natural. Disagree. having to re-find and refocus on a new location is unnecessary and unnatural. At least I think I could come up with a legitimate argument to that effect. Please stop imposing your preference on me and calling me non-intuitive or unnatural. Please recognise that it is just a simple little preference of yours. Reentering on zoom is *not* a natural law. snip Coz - it is better - at least quite a number of us think so and there is a basis for this preference. I may have a large screen or multiple screens. I prefer the location I am dealing with remain in the same spot on the screen so I do not have to find it again and refocus. It is all about speed. I, think that the other CAD packages have it wrong and protel has it right from a speed and human computer interaction (HCI) point of view. Having to find the edit point and re-focus is a slow down. I am an expert user - I want the package to be as fast as possible. This is one little example of how I think it is faster. Most of the time I am only paging up or down one step as I try to rout/place in a specific region. On the rarer occasions that zoom in or out a long way an occasional home is not issue for me. Please see my response to Tony on this issue. I think I make a very valid point that your arguement re re-find and refocus actually works against you, and I answer it there. You simply made an assertion and did not back it up with any physiological or bio-mechanical justification. That is not an argument it is example of you attempting to argue by shrill unjustified statements. In reality, you have to completely re-focus on the new image after a zoom in or out irregardless of where the cursor is. Sorry, I wont buy this one. I don't - I am looking at the location I am working in. PgUp and that area expands. I have not moved my eyes. The screen distance has not changed. My eyes do not need to refocus. I have not had to move my head to look at a different portion of the screen, so
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:28, Tony Karavidas wrote: OK everybody, this emoticon ;) generally means 'kidding', 'teasing', 'joshing', 'joking', 'pulling your leg', etc. It takes the seriousness OFF the preceding text. I think Ivan was 'pulling your leg' However, with 240V you probably have more electrocutions! Hi Tony, Not as many as you would think, but that could be due to mandatory laws (atleast in Western Australia) for all workplaces to be fitted with Residual Current Circuit Breakers (GFU's to the USA, ELCB's to old australians). Which makes me laugh, the AU federal government is looking at paying stay hat home mom's a wage, this makes them workers, this then means every wa home that has a stay at home parent a workplace now homes have to have RCD's too ;o). Also we are not allowed by law to do our own electrical work, by the strict law, you have to atleast have a limited electrical license to change light globes, filp a circuit breaker that has tripped, rewire a fuse, replace a fuse cartridge. Wiring extention leads is also covered under this license as is home made equipment not for sale (IE electronics hobby devices running off 240Vac mains) In WA we also have a saftey watchit van from the Power Co. go to local shopping centers, bring in damaged applices's IE cut power leads, cracked plug tops etc and they replace them for the cost of parts only. So all in all, We do not have that many deaths each year from electrocution. Besides I thought it was current that killed and ours is half yours ;o) (I know that a given voltage will cause a given current through a given resistance so unless we are better insulators in AU (and other 240Vac places) we would infact draw more power) I think this was the reason the UK made factories and construction sites use 120Vac (50hz) (hey a new standard) ;o) Regards, Kat. * Tracking #: A09546546457714D9BD2A390F10F0B767675F594 * -- K.A.Q. Electronics Software and Electronic Engineering Perth, Western Australia Phone +61 (0) 419 923 731 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
-Original Message- From: Katinka Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 July 2002 08:36 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. [cut] Besides I thought it was current that killed and ours is half yours ;o) (I know that a given voltage will cause a given current through a given resistance so unless we are better insulators in AU (and other 240Vac places) we would infact draw more power) I think this was the reason the UK made factories and construction sites use 120Vac (50hz) (hey a new standard) ;o) I'd heard that the use of 120V power tools at industrial locations here in the UK was to prevent theft! There is also a safety aspect, as in most cases - especially outdoors - an isolating transformer is used to drop the 230V mains to 120V. In fact most UK factories use 415V 50Hz 3-phase power for 'heavy duty' electrical stuff, in addition to 120V/50Hz (power tools, but not everywhere) and 230V/50Hz (everything else). As an extra complication, when I worked on avionic stuff many years ago the lab. also had outlets for 115V/400Hz 3-phase (aircraft standard). Regards, Andy Gulliver * Tracking #: 1912090030169843ADB0ECF712B9BCA46A824C66 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
JaMi, aren't you mixing up some things in this discussion? See my comments below. I also eventually found this forum, which has been of some help. The problem here is that in general everybody refuses to realize or acknowledge that this (as with many other things) is a bug, notwithstanding the fact that it has been acknowledged in the knowledge base for years and pops up here in the forum on a regular basis. Most people here appear to love Protel and hate Microsoft, so the blame always gets shifted to Microsoft or if not them, the implied stupid user. It was only after several months of using the Microsoft wheel mouse with the Intellimouse software wheel disabled for Protel, that I realized that the mouse wheel had always worked well on a previous employers Protel 98 and Protel 99 (in both Windows 95 and NT) which used a Logitech wheel mouse, and also the trial version of Protel 99 SE that I had at home which also used a Logitech wheel mouse. I bought my own Logitech cordless wheel mouse for work, and installed the Logitech Mouseware, and magically the problems went away, and not just the problems with the keyboard, but all of the problems that I had been having. It was great to have both the wheel and the keyboard shortcuts all back at the same time, but more importantly, the system stopped crashing. Plain and simple. The system stopped crashing on a regular basis. I went from 7 or 8 crash and reboots a day, down to about 1 a week, if that. Microsoft Bashing is not the answer, anymore than Protel Bashing. The real answer is for a software developer the size of Protel / Altium to have a functional relationship with Microsoft. They should be a member of the Microsoft Development Network where they would get regular updates on software and problems, and more importantly, they would get real Microsoft Technical Support on issues such as this. Yes it cost a few sheckels to join the MDN, probably a few grand a year, certainly more than I can afford, but there is no excuse in the world for Protel / Altium not to be a member. Sometimes I wonder if they even know that the MDN and other forms of Microsoft Support available to OEM Software Developers exists. When you install a piece of hardware (e.g. a mouse), the driver software either goes with the hardware product, or you may chose to install the Microsoft driver (if supplied). The application SW (like Protel) should not need to mess around with any special HW feature (like it used to be in old DOS times), but just call system (Windows) functions and leave the rest to the OS. I am just a simple-minded hardware developer, but if you state that the application works fine with a Logitech mouse and does not with a Microsoft mouse, there cannot be any question about who is to blame. I have no preference for any OS; I want a working system, that's all. I just don't care about who writes drivers, be it the OS people, be it the hardware supplier. I dare to demand from SW the same as anyone takes for granted from any HW product they purchase: it shall function as specified. In consequence: If Microsoft mice don't work with Microsoft SW (MS is the OS provider, not Protel!), don't buy mice from Microsoft. It's as simple as that. The fact that use of the Logitech drivers eliminates the problem with Protel speaks for itself. I don't mind your devotion for Microsoft, I use their SW as well, as it is part of my work, but please let us stick to the facts. By the way, how do you know whether Altium is member of MDN or not? Gisbert Auge N.A.T. GmbH www.nateurope.com * Tracking #: 3AB2FBE7FC15B94F91B431E004355C6778F63EFA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Hi, The symtoms currently exhibited on this forum is commonly known as PDRS (Pre-DXP Release Syndrom).It effects people in different ways especially relating to the mains voltage, current and frequency of their home appliances. PLEASE Protel release DXP NOW for the sanity of this and other innocent groupsat least we will have something relevant to talk about :-) BTW.. This group has always been of great help even if it was sometimes just to brighten my day! * Tracking #: FDA13837633E9D408828D8F0E1355C09015A7FEA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. (very off topic, and more to do with outdoor power tools)
I think that the 120(110?)V is also taken from a transformer that has a centre tap to earth, so that the maximum potential to earth is 60V. I hadn't heard that it was to prevent theft. Interesting point. This is so off topic that I am now going to make a Protel specific comment - About 18 months ago I had the Microsoft wheel mouse problem. I upgraded the Intellimouse drivers and everything was fine. Jami, have you tried that? Steve. -Original Message- From: Andy Gulliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 July 2002 09:21 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. snip I'd heard that the use of 120V power tools at industrial locations here in the UK was to prevent theft! There is also a safety aspect, as in most cases - especially outdoors - an isolating transformer is used to drop the 230V mains to 120V. * Tracking #: 1BFC63D89274C7468FD92DCE443A743B2C24D615 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] As far as the Zoom issue. It was obviously a design decision. As such with user interface decisions, some people will like it, and some won't. If the majority find the decision useable and can adapt to it in a short period of time it was a good decision. Um...pgup/pgdn is a descision made back in the late 1980s. That is, the decision was made long before wheel mice and (useable) windows, and long before any standards had been agreed upon regarding zoom functuions and the like. I found it quite annoying for the first three or four years, until one day I found myself finally used to it. NOw I get slightly irritated when other apps require some archane group of key commands to zoom/unzoom, like the old +/- zoom crap, whcih also requires the shift key...Gr. Chasing the dislikes of a few users leads to products that don't ship and the competition gets so far ahead that the company goes under. FWIW, Chasing the likes and dislikes of a few fore-sighted users makes a great deal more sense to the long-term health of a company that to listen to the bleating of a thousand cloned sheep...Unfortunately, convincing the overpaid sheep that get hired into most marketing positions of that truth is another matter entirely... Can we now drop this subject. No. The subject(s) will not be dropped until they have been resolved, whether you, or I, or most anyone else likes it, because some new subscriber will always come along and bring it back up, all because Protel has not resolved the issue(s). It has been kicked to death and I for one am really tired of it. There is a rilly neato button within most mail readers. I call it the delete button. Hope yours has one ;) aj * Tracking #: 6162118C5AAE4C499408E25B7F4E36B0D26ABBE5 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
- Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100. Protel lost the Keboard Shortcuts instantly after touching the wheel every time Protel was run. By this I mean that when you ran Protel, the keyboard shortcuts operated perfectly right up to the instant that you rotated the wheel 1 click. This identical behavior caused identical crashes on 3 identical Dell Dimension 4100 machines. I corrected the bug which caused the crashes and the loss of the Keyboard Shortcuts by installing a Logitech wheel mouse and Logitech Mouseware software. Protel 99 SE with SP 6 would not operate without crashing on a brand new unmodified out of the box system from a major computer manufacturer. This is a known problem which has been in the knowledge base ever since Protel 98. This is why I call it a BUG. What about this do you not understand? Of course he did it. Everybody knows he did it including the jury. I would almost be willing to bet that if all of the Logitech Mouse users out there were to reinstall their operating systems fresh and not reinstall their Mouseware, and scrounged another mouse with a wheel for a test (did not use the Logitech mouse) that 50% of them would find out that they have the problem. I'd like to see that. If protel could get a grip on the problem maybe they could fix it. Why do you think I have been screeming and yelling about it! How about a poll?? EVERYONE ON THIS LIST THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM SHOULD EMAIL THE LIST SO 'WE' CAN COUNT THEM. What! If only 10 people have the Bug it's not a Bug? There have been ample complaints directly to Protel to establist to Protel that it is a Bug! This is why it has been in Protel's own Knowledge Base for so long. PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! THATS WHY I'M BITCHING SO MUCH! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL HAS KNOWN THAT THIS IS A BUG EVER SINCE PROTEL 98! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL EITHER WON'T FIX IT, OR CAN'T FIX IT! IF THEY WONT FIX IT, I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THEIR CUSTOMERS AND POTENTIAL NEW CUSTOMERS NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY WON'T FIX IT. I BELIEVE THAT THIS POSITION IS UNACCEPTABLE. IF THEY CAN'T FIX IT, I QUESTION THEIR COMPETANCE AS PROGRAMMERS, AND THAT IS WHY I BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOUD SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM MICROSOFT. I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND THE PROBLEM AND HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE IT AND HOPE THAT IT WILL GO AWAY. I FOR ONE WILL NOT LET IT GO AWAY I did a design on an audio card that worked in all PCI Macintosh computers except for this one guy. We wanted to be pro-active and try and solve the problem just in case it was the 'tip of the iceberg' sort of thing. The customer agreed to ship his computer to us for evaluation and we could NOT figure it out in a reasonable time ( under 1 week) We purchased another similarly configured system and it worked on that one. We probably could have found it with enough time, but it wasn't worth the thousands of dollars the company was burning on it so we returned the computer and issues the guy a full refund and some brownie points. The problem YOU have may be hard for Protel to reproduce, period. Not even comparable - This has been reported directly to Protel by enough different people that it has been in their Knowledge Base for years, not to mention the occurances reported in this forum. While companies such as Microsoft do there best to see that different pieces of hardware from different suppliers all work the same in their Operating Systems, we all know that the simple truth of the matter is that they don't. Part of this is
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100. Protel lost the Keboard Shortcuts instantly after touching the wheel every time Protel was run. By this I mean that when you ran Protel, the keyboard shortcuts operated perfectly right up to the instant that you rotated the wheel 1 click. This identical behavior caused identical crashes on 3 identical Dell Dimension 4100 machines. I corrected the bug which caused the crashes and the loss of the Keyboard Shortcuts by installing a Logitech wheel mouse and Logitech Mouseware software. Protel 99 SE with SP 6 would not operate without crashing on a brand new unmodified out of the box system from a major computer manufacturer. This is a known problem which has been in the knowledge base ever since Protel 98. This is why I call it a BUG. What about this do you not understand? Of course he did it. Everybody knows he did it including the jury. I would almost be willing to bet that if all of the Logitech Mouse users out there were to reinstall their operating systems fresh and not reinstall their Mouseware, and scrounged another mouse with a wheel for a test (did not use the Logitech mouse) that 50% of them would find out that they have the problem. I'd like to see that. If protel could get a grip on the problem maybe they could fix it. Why do you think I have been screeming and yelling about it! How about a poll?? EVERYONE ON THIS LIST THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM SHOULD EMAIL THE LIST SO 'WE' CAN COUNT THEM. What! If only 10 people have the Bug it's not a Bug? There have been ample complaints directly to Protel to establist to Protel that it is a Bug! This is why it has been in Protel's own Knowledge Base for so long. PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! THATS WHY I'M BITCHING SO MUCH! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL HAS KNOWN THAT THIS IS A BUG EVER SINCE PROTEL 98! PROTEL KNOWS IT'S A BUG! PROTEL EITHER WON'T FIX IT, OR CAN'T FIX IT! IF THEY WONT FIX IT, I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THEIR CUSTOMERS AND POTENTIAL NEW CUSTOMERS NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY WON'T FIX IT. I BELIEVE THAT THIS POSITION IS UNACCEPTABLE. IF THEY CAN'T FIX IT, I QUESTION THEIR COMPETANCE AS PROGRAMMERS, AND THAT IS WHY I BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOUD SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM MICROSOFT. I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND THE PROBLEM AND HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE IT AND HOPE THAT IT WILL GO AWAY. I FOR ONE WILL NOT LET IT GO AWAY
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. When purchasing such an expensive product an expensive professional PC, I would consider this auto-pan issue fundamental, since when using Protel, I plan to design some PCBs. If it were not for this group, Protel EDA Forum, my new development PC would might have had the new Matrox Parhelia only to find out that this 600$ card would turn out to be a lemon with Protel. I can't even chance getting a professional work-station grade NVIDIA card. For all I know, slight differences in it's GPU code might lock up the auto-pan as well. Sad to say, I'm going to use a cheap GF4MX. The same card which is in my current system. It's the only way I could be certain that a 2.5GHz system will not run more sluggishly than my current 1.0GHz system. This is the main reason why I will not upgrade to ATS. If Altium/Protel can not hire a single coder who has good experience debugging, or correcting odd windows glitches where 99% of existing other software has no issues with the same hardware, I can not in confidence dish out more money to get the next software which probably has the same, perhaps new draw backs. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100. Protel lost the Keboard Shortcuts instantly after touching the wheel every time Protel was run. By this I mean that when you ran Protel, the keyboard shortcuts operated perfectly right up to the instant that you rotated the wheel 1 click. This identical behavior caused identical crashes on 3
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Just guessing, but maybe this mouse morass is Delphi's fault? It may be true that 99% of other apps don't have this problem, but maybe the 1% that do are written in Delphi? Sometimes app bugs turn out to be built-in bugs of the app development system. Coming to an EDA list near you: Mouse Wars. squeak, Squeak, sque-sque-sque Squeak squeak, ... 8: Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. * Tracking #: 8F48DA852313B347A37E3A829C0610B9B7FEA62B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it exhibited this problem until I updated the mouse driver, and I found the updated driver was older than the Dell computer. Therefore I hold that this is a MICROSOFT INTELLIMOUSE BUG, not a Protel Bug. Rob * Tracking #: 11CEDB17DE57DA4384F655CFF20993261DBD0927 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Just guessing, but maybe this mouse morass is Delphi's fault? It may be true that 99% of other apps don't have this problem, but maybe the 1% that do are written in Delphi? Sometimes app bugs turn out to be built-in bugs of the app development system. Coming to an EDA list near you: Mouse Wars. squeak, Squeak, sque-sque-sque Squeak squeak, ... 8: Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com No. My software team uses delphi. We have no such problems with mouse/window interactions unless something really silly was done. To prevent the Protel auto-pan mouse chunkyness, you just need an understanding of how Windows threads it's input display devices internally. It is entirely possible to re-create the same Protel flaws in Microsoft's Visual C, or Visual basic. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Just guessing, but maybe this mouse morass is Delphi's fault? It may be true that 99% of other apps don't have this problem, but maybe the 1% that do are written in Delphi? Sometimes app bugs turn out to be built-in bugs of the app development system. Coming to an EDA list near you: Mouse Wars. squeak, Squeak, sque-sque-sque Squeak squeak, ... 8: Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. * Tracking #: 8F48DA852313B347A37E3A829C0610B9B7FEA62B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Look, can someone just give me the source for the PCB software, I'll properly fix the stupid mouse issue. For any video card, or mouse driver combination. I'll also fix the dumb scroll borders so the pan will start slowly you approach the edge of the window, instead of when you go off the edge of the window. And, I make a true BALLISTIC pan where your mouse is locked in the middle of the window, as you move the mouse, the board will move around giving you no window margins at all. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it exhibited this problem until I updated the mouse driver, and I found the updated driver was older than the Dell computer. Therefore I hold that this is a MICROSOFT INTELLIMOUSE BUG, not a Protel Bug. Rob * Tracking #: 11CEDB17DE57DA4384F655CFF20993261DBD0927 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
In fact, upon special request, I'll make a mod where if you plug in a secondary track ball, you can use the track ball to pan the board display while using the mouse to continue routing. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Look, can someone just give me the source for the PCB software, I'll properly fix the stupid mouse issue. For any video card, or mouse driver combination. I'll also fix the dumb scroll borders so the pan will start slowly you approach the edge of the window, instead of when you go off the edge of the window. And, I make a true BALLISTIC pan where your mouse is locked in the middle of the window, as you move the mouse, the board will move around giving you no window margins at all. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG And Microsoft did fix the bug in the Intellimouse drivers before JaMi got his machine from Dell! The fix drive just did not ship with the Dell machines. Updating the Intellimouse driver to the latest driver has fixed this bug on every machine I know to have exhibited it. I too have a Dell 4100 and it exhibited this problem until I updated the mouse driver, and I found the updated driver was older than the Dell computer. Therefore I hold that this is a MICROSOFT INTELLIMOUSE BUG, not a Protel Bug. Rob * Tracking #: 11CEDB17DE57DA4384F655CFF20993261DBD0927 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Tony - BECAUSE A NEW INSTALLATION OF PROTEL WILL NOT WORK WITH A NEW INTERNATIONALLY ACCEPTED STANDARDIZED COMPUTER SYSTEM, RUNNING AN INTERNATIONAL ACCEPTED STANDARDIZED OPERATING SYSTEM, AS DELIVERED FROM AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED COMPUTER MANUFACTURER! THAT'S WHY! BECAUSE EVERY OTHER APPLICATION UNDER THE SUN RUNS ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY ON THIS INTERNATIONALY STANARDIZED SYSTEM WITH IT'S INTERNATIONALLY STANDARDIZED MOUSE, AND NO OTHER APPLICATION HAS EVER HAD ANY PROBLEM WITH THE MOUSE! THAT'S WHY! WHEN A BRAND NEW CUSTOMER WITH THAT B U GCALLS PROTEL TO ASK WHY HIS SYSTEM CRASHES, PROTEL SAYS WE DON'T KNOW - GO POUND SAND! THATS WHY! AS IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH VALID REASON, IT IS PROTEL ITSELF THAT EXHIBITS THE PROBLEMATIC BEHAVIOUR, AND NOT THE OPERATING SYSTEM, NOR ANY OTHER PROGRAMS, NOT EVEN PROGRAMS WHICH ARE USING THE SAME WHEEL MOUSE RUNNING IN PARALLEL APPLICATIONS AT THE SAME TIME IN PARALLEL PROCESSES. FROM AN APPLICATIONS PROGRAMMING PERSPECTIVE, THIS POINTS THE FINGER AT PROTEL! THAT'S WHY! BECAUSE PROTEL IS NOT AN INTERNATIONALLY STANDARSIZED SOFTWARE APPLICATION, AND AS SUCH IT HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT ITS SOFTWARE WILL WORK ON AN INTERNATIONALLY STANDARDIZED SYSTEM WHICH IS RUNNING INTERNATIONALLY STANDARDIZED SOFTWARE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CLAIMS THAT IT WILL! THAT'S WHY! BECAUSE WHENEVER ANY PROGRAM EXECUTES A SYSTEM CALL, PROCEDURE, OR FUNCTION, TO A SERVICE OR PROGRAM SUCH AS A MOUSE DRIVER, GENERALLY SPEAKING, THAT MOUSE DRIVER WILL ONLY RETURN DATA OF SOME SORT (AS OPPOSED TO MODIFYING OR CHANGING THE CALLING PROGRAM), AND IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CALLING PROGRAM TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THAT RETURNED DATA IS VALID AND WITHIN THE RANGE OF OPERABLE PARAMETERS. PROTEL DOES NOT DO THIS. FOR SOME REASON PROTEL, AND ONLY PROTEL, GOES SOUTH FOR THE WINTER. FROM A PROGRAMMING PERSPECTIVE I COULD PROBABLY GIVE YOU SEVERAL SCENARIOS AS TO WHAT IS HAPPINING AND WHAT IS GOING WRONG FROM A SOFTWARE PERSPECTIVE, AND ALL POINT TO PROTEL. AS TO WHY THE LOGITECH DRIVER AND MOUSE CURE THE PROBLEM - IT COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS THE FACT THAT THE MICROSOFT MOUSE DRIVER OFFERS A SHORTCUT PROCEDURE THAT LOGITECH DOES NOT, AND THAT PROTEL IS ATTEMPTING TO USE THAT SHORTCUT WHEN IT IS AVAILABLE AND HAS NOT IMPLEMENTED THE SHORTCUT PROCEDURE CALL PROPERLY, AND THEREFORE CRASHES, WHERE AS WHEN THE SHORTCUT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN LOGITECH, PROTEL INVOKES THREE LONGER PROCEDURES WHICH WORK CORRECTLY. THAT'S WHY! WHY CAN'T Y O U ACCEPT THAT! THE TRUTH OF THE MATER IS THAT IF WE HAD ACCESS TO THE CODE, ANY HALFWAY DECENT PROGRAMMER, AND I AM SURE THAT THERE ARE PLENTY IN THIS FORUM, COULD ISOLATE, ANALYSE, AND CORRECT THE PROBLEM IN HALF THE TIME WE HAVE SPENT TALKING ABOUT IT! FROM A LOGICAL PERSPECTIVE, THE REAL REASON THAT IT IS A PROTEL BUG AND NOT A MICROSOFT BUG IS THAT PROTEL HAS ACKNOWLEDGED IT IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE BASE FOR YEARS AND MOST LIKELY NOT ATTEMPTED TO FIX IT SINCE THERE APPEARED TO BE A WORKAROUND, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME MICROSOFT HAS PROBABLY REWRITTEN THE INTELLIMOUSE SOFTWARE FROM THE GROUND UP AT LEAST 6 TIMES DURING THAT SAME TIME PERIOD, AND YET IT IS PROTEL, AND ONLY PROTEL THAT GOES SOUTH. JaMi - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Thank you Brian JaMi - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Here is my take on the situation: If, every mouse video card combination I have used to date auto-scrolls manipulates any other software's windows fine without bugs clunking, WHY should there be a special case for Protel where bugs should be acceptable when you happen to own not the correct combination of hardware? The only way I would NOT consider this a bug, is if, and only if, Protel / Altium made clear print on their hardware system requirements that you should never use ATI, or Matrox video cards, with these specific mice, or, mention that the auto-pan may malfunction under these circumstances. When purchasing such an expensive product an expensive professional PC, I would consider this auto-pan issue fundamental, since when using Protel, I plan to design some PCBs. If it were not for this group, Protel EDA Forum, my new development PC would might have had the new Matrox Parhelia only to find out that this 600$ card would turn out to be a lemon with Protel. I can't even chance getting a professional work-station grade NVIDIA card. For all I know, slight differences in it's GPU code might lock up the auto-pan as well. Sad to say, I'm going to use a cheap GF4MX. The same card which is in my current system. It's the only way I could be certain that a 2.5GHz system will not run more sluggishly than my current 1.0GHz system. This is the main reason why I will not upgrade to ATS. If Altium/Protel can not hire a single coder who has good experience debugging, or correcting odd windows glitches where 99% of existing other software has no issues with the same hardware, I can not in confidence dish out more money to get the next software which probably has the same, perhaps new draw backs. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. I'm tired of talking to you about this. I understand it's a problem for you and it's terrible that's it causing you so much grief. But as easily as you say IT IS PROTEL'S FAULT AND IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG why can't you seem to grasp your own words when you tell us changing your mouse fixes the problem? Don't you think this sentence could be true: IT IS MICROSOFT'S MOUSE DRIVER FAULT AND IT IS THEIR(MS) RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE BUG Microsoft Mouse = Bug Logitech Mouse != Bug MS Mouse on Jami's system = Bug MS Mouse on Tony's system != Bug You admit that PROTEL WORKS with a Logitech mouse. You hear from me that PROTEL WORKS with a Microsoft Mouse (on MY system) Why do you insist it's Protel's fault? Maybe they could be generous and find a 'workaround' for your screwed up mouse, but I certainly don't blame them for it. I'm done! Tony -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip The real issue is that statements like: No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is (Not for me at least), and that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel problem, simply by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel). What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine with P99SE. That is exactly what I was responding to here - someone saying that they were using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse and the software delivered with Windowa 2000 (which is Intellimouse), and he was saying that it worked just fine. Ask him. Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not understand your thinking... It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem, but the evidence would point in many other places. (I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.) You are correct! Protel crashed regulary with the Microsoft wheel mouse and Microsoft Intellimouse software that was delivered with the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Operating System on a brand new Dell Deminsion 4100
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
OK Ian, I will elaborate . . . On 07:22 PM 22/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: Speaking of Protel Bugs . . . What are the odds on whether your favorite Bug has been fixed in DXP? 1. ) I am betting that the Keyboard / Mouse problem that has been there since Protel 98 has not been fixed. What problem? Protel 99 SE is at a minimum very instable with Microsoft Mouse Drivers, especially with Microsoft Intellimosue software and a wheel mouse. This bug has been acknowledged in the knowledge base as far back as Protel 98, where the reccommended correction has for years been install the original mouse driver (which is some trick since all Microsoft Operating Systems have been shipping with Intellimouse software for several years now). The Problem specifically is that the use of the wheel at a minimum disables all keyboard shortcuts such as PT for Place Track, and can even go so far as disabling the PgUp (zoom in) and PgDn (zoom out) type functions in some cases, and is one of the major causes of Instability and Crashes on many different types of Machines. Many Protel Users are unaware of the problems for several reasons: Some, since they do not use the keyboard shortcuts but always go to the pulldown menus, they don't even know that there is a problem other than Protel seems to crash alot. Some purchase systems complete with the latest Microsoft Operating Systems custom tailored and installed from companies such as IBM, DELL, Compac, etc., which have sightly different or slightly modified Intellimouse software that doesn't have the problem. Still others are lucky enough to have a Logitech Mouse with Logitech Mouseware, which is the best known solution to the problem. If they are using a system with a Logitech Mouse and software they may have never heard of or ever seen the effects of the problem. The real problem is that Protel has not addressed the problem for several releases of the software (with several service packs for each release), and yet it is at the minimum probably one of the largest contributors to instability and crashes on numerous systems. I would think that Protel would want to resolve this issue, since I think it would do wonders for the stability of the product. While many people in this list have at one time or another discounted this problem as ranging from simply not having the right driver installed, to having the wrong video card, to having a flakey machine or flakey installation of their operating system, all the way down to the problem being a figment of someones imagination, and even down to your response of What problem?, the problem is real. I actually look at this specific problem and it's continued presence in the Protel product as a measure of the competence of the Protel software developers and programmers, and believe that it has a direct bearing on their understanding of Microsoft Operating Systems and Applications Software, and specifically the Microsoft SDK. I find it very telling that the developers of a product such as Protel which is specifically designed for Windows Operating Systems (at least in its current incarnation), seem to have so much trouble interfacing with an internationally standard mouse driver. I am sorry, but I simply cannot accept some small company like Protel / Altium in Australia pointing the finger at Microsoft and saying it's their problem, or worse yet, saying that it is not a problem at all as I was told by Protel Sales and Technical Support people who said it would not be fixed until the next software release. WELL THIS IS THE NEXT SOFTWARE RELEASE - IS IT FIXED? Ian - This is a REAL bug, and it really does affect alot of installations out there in the way of crashes. Please don't make excuses for Protel on this one, it really does need to be fixed. 2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is still there (yes Ian, I know that you like it, and I know that you wrote a routine to fx it, but it still is backwards and unlike no other system in the world). I'm getting a little tired of this one - *you* may think it is wrong, others don't. Why do you insist on implying that others are wrong? I think you could respect others opinions a little by phrasing your complaint not as a bug (which it clearly isn't) but as merely your preference. Re-centering after a zoom (which is your preference, the lack of which you are calling a bug) can be demonstrated to require a mental refocussing especially on large screens - so an argument could be made that Protel, by not re-centering after a pan (Home key) is better. No bug here. I find it odd Ian that you like the way that Protel zooms in and out without centering about the cursor, like every other cad package I have ever seen, and even defend it, but you went ahead and wrote a server to fix the problem anyway, and then go on to say no bug here Granted, you and some others may have actually grown accustomed to the weird behaviour of Protel when it zooms in and
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
-Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 1:37 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. OK Ian, I will elaborate . . . On 07:22 PM 22/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: Speaking of Protel Bugs . . . What are the odds on whether your favorite Bug has been fixed in DXP? 1. ) I am betting that the Keyboard / Mouse problem that has been there since Protel 98 has not been fixed. What problem? Protel 99 SE is at a minimum very instable with Microsoft Mouse Drivers, especially with Microsoft Intellimosue software and a wheel mouse. This bug has been acknowledged in the knowledge base as far back as Protel 98, where the reccommended correction has for years been install the original mouse driver (which is some trick since all Microsoft Operating Systems have been shipping with Intellimouse software for several years now). No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. You're referring to a driver that was around in 1998. Have you tried using a newer version The Problem specifically is that the use of the wheel at a minimum disables all keyboard shortcuts such as PT for Place Track, and can even go so far as disabling the PgUp (zoom in) and PgDn (zoom out) type functions in some cases, and is one of the major causes of Instability and Crashes on many different types of Machines. Many Protel Users are unaware of the problems for several reasons: Some, since they do not use the keyboard shortcuts but always go to the pulldown menus, they don't even know that there is a problem other than Protel seems to crash alot. Some purchase systems complete with the latest Microsoft Operating Systems custom tailored and installed from companies such as IBM, DELL, Compac, etc., which have sightly different or slightly modified Intellimouse software that doesn't have the problem. Still others are lucky enough to have a Logitech Mouse with Logitech Mouseware, which is the best known solution to the problem. If they are using a system with a Logitech Mouse and software they may have never heard of or ever seen the effects of the problem. I'm unaware of the problem for none of those reasons. So you admit: ...sightly different or slightly modified Intellimouse software that doesn't have the problem... and still proceed to blame Protel?? That's a pretty lame position and a poor use of logic. Surely you can attribute some of the blame on MS mouse driver writers? The real problem is that Protel has not addressed the problem for several releases of the software (with several service packs for each release), and yet it is at the minimum probably one of the largest contributors to instability and crashes on numerous systems. I would think that Protel would want to resolve this issue, since I think it would do wonders for the stability of the product. P99SE is very stable for me and many others when used on WinNT or Win2000. While many people in this list have at one time or another discounted this problem as ranging from simply not having the right driver installed, to having the wrong video card, to having a flakey machine or flakey installation of their operating system, all the way down to the problem being a figment of someones imagination, and even down to your response of What problem?, the problem is real. I actually look at this specific problem and it's continued presence in the Protel product as a measure of the competence of the Protel software developers and programmers, and believe that it has a direct bearing on their understanding of Microsoft Operating Systems and Applications Software, and specifically the Microsoft SDK. I find it very telling that the developers of a product such as Protel which is specifically designed for Windows Operating Systems (at least in its current incarnation), seem to have so much trouble interfacing with an internationally standard mouse driver. I find it telling that my Intel USB camera REBOOTS my system when I'm running WinXP pro, but if I boot the SAME HARDWARE with Win2000, the camera is fine. I didn't do any tricky setup for either. I let the OS find the camera and install drivers. Why can't two multi billion dollar companies get a goddamn camera to work?? Did MS forget that Intel makes USB cameras? Didn't they test it? Maybe they did and it worked for them, but it doesn't work for me. (sounds familar huh?) I am sorry, but I simply cannot accept some small company like Protel / Altium in Australia pointing the finger at Microsoft and saying it's their problem, or worse yet, saying that it is not a problem at all as I was told by Protel Sales and Technical Support people who said it would not be fixed until the next software release. WELL THIS IS THE NEXT SOFTWARE RELEASE
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
You should get the 30day trial as soon as it comes out and have a look for yourself. Rene Terry Creer wrote: Actually, now that beta testing is completed (well, according to the press release yesterday it is), does that mean that the beta testers can actually let the cat out of the bag? TC -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 23 July 2002 11:53 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Speaking of Protel Bugs . . . What are the odds on whether your favorite Bug has been fixed in DXP? * Tracking #: 8DDAC4574410584496FF5D66841D68C94E28FF9E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? Maybe the down under has something to do with it? ;-) From one episode of the Simpsons, when Lisa is helping Bart study for a geography test, he looks at a globe and says hey, I didn't know there's an island called Rand McNally in the Pacific Ocean. Lisa tells him that in Rand McNally, everyone walks on their noses, and hamburgers eat people. To which Bart replies Cool!. rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:36 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. * Tracking #: FEA6A5084AAA1B4FBBCEA608A0CD8D2459FF9143 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
I guess this means we should write the time as minutes/seconds/hours then ;-) Dave Buckley -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 23 July 2002 15:24 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * Tracking #: 7F6D383BFAEF224F9CB269568E844B5D754436A1 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:23, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? el snippo rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Lol Maybe because some contries actually teach the date that way and in the AU legal system it is written something like this On this 23rd day of July 2002 or even On this Twenty Third day of July Two Thousand and Two But I do not mind which way it is stored as long as the user can change it, to suit the local culture, the canadian way I believe is based on French where they say the year then the month then the day. Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) I think we should adopt a higher voltage system so we can use a thinner conductor ;o) and frequency should be in the khz so we can be driven insane by transfoemer hum (hmm if it was high enough it would be more like singing ;o) Regards, Kat. * Tracking #: 4C339601323F66438F9532E85A96B2F72C93E03A * -- K.A.Q. Electronics Software and Electronic Engineering Perth, Western Australia Phone +61 (0) 419 923 731 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
And you'd prefer times as MM:SS:HH? ;-) Personally, I'm out to get the whole world to adopt ISO-8601, which alows several formats, of which I prefer -MM-DD. That will sort correctly whether it's alphanumeric, or whatever. I didn't say anything about time format. You just assumed. Is OT Off-Topic, or On-Topic. Could be either! You just assumed. I'm not out to get the whole world to change to ISO-anything. I'm out to get the entire world to change to the way I do things ;-) You are right about the sorting order, though. But any app I use for sorting dates (Excel) can sort MM/DD/YY correctly anyway. New slogan: What do you want to put in your Protel template title block today? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:25:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? And you'd prefer times as MM:SS:HH? ;-) Personally, I'm out to get the whole world to adopt ISO-8601, which alows several formats, of which I prefer -MM-DD. That will sort correctly whether it's alphanumeric, or whatever. Are we getting a little OT here? Steve Hendrix * Tracking #: 302C7AEC4E668747A3931191787D4A780F50FC92 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Well the French do have to be different, now don't they? ;) I spent my last vacation in France, right through Sept 11, so do go thinking I'm French-bashing. They were very kind during that mess. Tony -Original Message- From: Katinka Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:47 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:23, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? el snippo rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Lol Maybe because some contries actually teach the date that way and in the AU legal system it is written something like this On this 23rd day of July 2002 or even On this Twenty Third day of July Two Thousand and Two But I do not mind which way it is stored as long as the user can change it, to suit the local culture, the canadian way I believe is based on French where they say the year then the month then the day. Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) I think we should adopt a higher voltage system so we can use a thinner conductor ;o) and frequency should be in the khz so we can be driven insane by transfoemer hum (hmm if it was high enough it would be more like singing ;o) Regards, Kat. * Tracking #: 4C339601323F66438F9532E85A96B2F72C93E03A * -- -- -- K.A.Q. Electronics Software and Electronic Engineering Perth, Western Australia Phone +61 (0) 419 923 731 -- -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
I though the Canadian ISO system was based on numeric priority. Starting with the most significant, year, leading to the least significant, day. Sort of like normal numbers. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:25:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? And you'd prefer times as MM:SS:HH? ;-) Personally, I'm out to get the whole world to adopt ISO-8601, which alows several formats, of which I prefer -MM-DD. That will sort correctly whether it's alphanumeric, or whatever. Are we getting a little OT here? Steve Hendrix * Tracking #: B826F43E5AAE904AB1745A14BD63CEC5DAD14077 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
- Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] snip Protel 99 SE is at a minimum very instable with Microsoft Mouse Drivers, especially with Microsoft Intellimosue software and a wheel mouse. This bug has been acknowledged in the knowledge base as far back as Protel 98, where the reccommended correction has for years been install the original mouse driver (which is some trick since all Microsoft Operating Systems have been shipping with Intellimouse software for several years now). No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using for a mouse. I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000. You're referring to a driver that was around in 1998. Have you tried using a newer version snip I'm unaware of the problem for none of those reasons. So you admit: ...sightly different or slightly modified Intellimouse software that doesn't have the problem... and still proceed to blame Protel?? That's a pretty lame position and a poor use of logic. Surely you can attribute some of the blame on MS mouse driver writers? snip P99SE is very stable for me and many others when used on WinNT or Win2000. snip I am talking about July of last year with an almost new (less than 6 months old) Dell Dimension 4100 (1 GHz Pentium III), with Windows 2000 Professional, Office 2000 Professional, a brand new Microsoft Wheel Mouse, and a brand new out of the box installation of Protel 99 SE with Service Pack 6. Although my employer did have 2 other seats of Protel 99 SE at the time I was hired, they Purchased a third seat for me, and the keyboard / mouse issue was a problem from day one. Please note that one existing Protel 99 SE seat was used by an an engineer who only did schematic entry, and the other was used by someone relatively new to Protel who did not know anything about keyboard shortcuts, and always did everything the long way thru the pull down menus. The only problem he had was Protel crashing alot in PCB. Back to my new system and installation, although please note that the ultimate results were identical for all 3 virtually identical installations the company had. The minute you touched the wheel on the mouse, Protel lost contact with most of the keyboard (virtually none of the keyboard shortcuts worked, although you still had PgUp and PgDn, and a few other keys (although sometimes you would loose these also), although the keyboard would still work within a Dialogue Box. The system also began to crash on a regular basis, although never before had it crashed until Protel was installed on it, and then it only crashed in Protel. The Official Protel response from the 800 number which reached only the sales people in the San Diego Office at that time, who would not allow me to talk to anyone in technical support, was that technical support said that it was not a problem and it would not even be addressed or fixed until the next release of the software. This was Protel's Official response to a brand new customer who had just spent $8000.00 plus California Sales Tax at 8.75%. All they could say was that it was not a bug. New customer on a new system crashing 7 or 8 times a day and it was not a problem. They could not even point me to any solution. I was left to resolve the issue myself, and ultimately tracked it down to the wheel and the Intellimouse software, and once I did that I found out that you could disable the wheel in the for the certain applications in the Intellimouse software, which I did for Client 99. This resolved the loss of the ability to use the keyboard shortcuts, but did not resolve the frequent crashes of Protel. I ultimately found that this problem had been identified and listed as a problem and mentioned in the knowledge base continuously all the way back to Protel 98, but the sales person in San Diego couldn't even tell me that much, and I also had to find that out on my own. I also eventually found this forum, which has been of some help. The problem here is that in general everybody refuses to realize or acknowledge that this (as with many other things) is a bug, notwithstanding the fact that it has been acknowledged in the knowledge base for years and pops up here in the forum on a regular basis. Most people here appear to love Protel and hate Microsoft, so the blame always gets shifted to Microsoft or if not them, the implied stupid user. It was only after several months of using the Microsoft wheel mouse with the Intellimouse software wheel disabled for Protel, that I realized that the mouse wheel had always worked well on a previous employers Protel 98 and Protel 99 (in both Windows 95 and NT) which used a Logitech wheel mouse, and also the trial version of Protel 99 SE that I had at home which also used a Logitech wheel mouse. I bought my own Logitech cordless wheel mouse for work, and installed the Logitech Mouseware,
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
- Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip I got tired of you complaining about it when you first joined the forum (and began slagging the software and those of us with different points of view) and showed you that you can have it any way you like. I don't use my server and it is not a bug fix in my mind. Not a bug fix? - semantics - not worth argueing over. Why can't you accept that Protel actually has some bugs, along with many many more features or whatever you want to call them that need to be fixed. Granted, you and some others may have actually grown accustomed to the weird behaviour of Protel when it zooms in and out, and actually like or prefer it, but that doesn't make it intuitive or natural. Disagree. having to re-find and refocus on a new location is unnecessary and unnatural. At least I think I could come up with a legitimate argument to that effect. Please stop imposing your preference on me and calling me non-intuitive or unnatural. Please recognise that it is just a simple little preference of yours. Reentering on zoom is *not* a natural law. snip Coz - it is better - at least quite a number of us think so and there is a basis for this preference. I may have a large screen or multiple screens. I prefer the location I am dealing with remain in the same spot on the screen so I do not have to find it again and refocus. It is all about speed. I, think that the other CAD packages have it wrong and protel has it right from a speed and human computer interaction (HCI) point of view. Having to find the edit point and re-focus is a slow down. I am an expert user - I want the package to be as fast as possible. This is one little example of how I think it is faster. Most of the time I am only paging up or down one step as I try to rout/place in a specific region. On the rarer occasions that zoom in or out a long way an occasional home is not issue for me. Please see my response to Tony on this issue. I think I make a very valid point that your arguement re re-find and refocus actually works against you, and I answer it there. You may like it, but it is non-standard to say the least. The key to progress is questioning the status quo. I am not interested in standards if there is a demonstrably better way of working. Standards have their place but generally for beginner users. Expert users are almost always more interested in shortcuts and speed-ups. Wait a minute here - Expert users want shortcuts and speed-ups, but a Mouse / Keyboard problem that trashes all of the shortcut keys and crashes the system 7 or 8 times a day requiring reboot isnt a bug? Give me a break! Where again do I go to get the little drivers / servers you wrote to fix the problem? The real problem here Ian is that I shouldn't have to ask you for your drivers / servers, Protel should fix the problem, or even considering that you like it the way it is, they should offer the standard zoom in and out for us abnormal folks who learned on everyone elses systems. You may not condescend to calling it a bug, but it is unquestionably a Protel quirk. Yep - an example of the programmers considering how to speed our work maybe? Or maybe a historical artefact. A quirk, yep. Bug, No. Just what does Protel have to do before you will call something a bug? Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? Stupid comment. Actually not. Probably really closer to observable fact. It is painfully obvious that Protel / Altium in Australia is not having very much communication with Microsoft in Belville Washington. Snide comment? - yes - but it offers them an excuse. Again, please see my response to Tony, and specifically the part regarding the Microsoft Development Network. ..snip.. ..snip.. As for Sch PCB command commonality... maybe there are some things that differ - but they do have to reflect the differences in the actual entities. I would *hate* a package that tried to be so common across the various editors that it sacrificed functionality. But i do have a gripe about Sch and PCB differences - I want a J-C (Jump-Component) in Sch like in PCB. But that is about the only difference that I regularly hiccup on - oh, and right-click dragging in Sch. Aside ftom the right click issue and the fact that I think that some things are just plain implemented poorly, I gues that my real complaints here boil down to incompatability of, or in some cases, inavailability of, shortcut keys, as you point out. The real problem here is that Schematic as a whole truely does appear to be a bastard child married into the rest of the Client Design Explorer just to complete the package. Not quite in the marketing fluff department as you place the 3D Viewer, since schematic capture, netlist
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:42, Tony Karavidas wrote: Well the French do have to be different, now don't they? ;) I spent my last vacation in France, right through Sept 11, so do go thinking I'm French-bashing. They were very kind during that mess. Tony Tony, The French are the same as every other race, there are good ones and bad ones, the bad ones get the attention and give the rest a bad name, most of the French ppl I know are kind. Regards, Kat. -Original Message- From: Katinka Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:47 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:23, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? el snippo rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Lol Maybe because some contries actually teach the date that way and in the AU legal system it is written something like this On this 23rd day of July 2002 or even On this Twenty Third day of July Two Thousand and Two But I do not mind which way it is stored as long as the user can change it, to suit the local culture, the canadian way I believe is based on French where they say the year then the month then the day. Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) I think we should adopt a higher voltage system so we can use a thinner conductor ;o) and frequency should be in the khz so we can be driven insane by transfoemer hum (hmm if it was high enough it would be more like singing ;o) Regards, Kat. * Tracking #: 4C339601323F66438F9532E85A96B2F72C93E03A * -- -- -- K.A.Q. Electronics Software and Electronic Engineering Perth, Western Australia Phone +61 (0) 419 923 731 -- -- -- K.A.Q. Electronics Software and Electronic Engineering Perth, Western Australia Phone +61 (0) 419 923 731 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On yeah, here's another bug that has to do with the wheel mouse, but it has NOTHING to do with Protel. When I view a PDF file online, acrobat is conveniently loaded within IE6's window. If I scroll through the document after I know more than a few pages are loaded, I get a dialog information box that says There was a problem reading this document(14). If I use the right arrow in the acrobat toolbar, I never get this error. Scroll wheel = error. Again, maybe it's the mouse driver, maybe it's IE6, maybe it's the acrobat plug-in. Who knows? Same for the issue with Protel and the mouse. Don't just assume it's Protel's fault Jami. * Tracking #: 8BA5A9ED5076E9458D89564987BC0F3EC5E9960C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Ivan, Writing dates as MM/DD/YY is the same as writing time as HH:SS:MM. It does not seem logical. There should be linear ascendence or descendence in the order of things, IMO. In Australia we have 240V/50Hz. Compared to your 120V/60Hz. We could discuss frequency, but one thing is sure, the current in your system is twice as high as in our system. That means your losses are four times as high. Whatever you do, you will always have higher electricity costs. It might not seem a big to you as an individual. On a national scale, it costs all of you a lot of dough. Metric system is based on a decimal numerical system, which is natural to humans. So we have reasons for what we are doing. What are your reasons for the things you do? You are just used to? Igor -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2002 12:24 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Is this what happens when you write software applications down under when everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot answer your technical questions about the software? Maybe the down under has something to do with it? ;-) From one episode of the Simpsons, when Lisa is helping Bart study for a geography test, he looks at a globe and says hey, I didn't know there's an island called Rand McNally in the Pacific Ocean. Lisa tells him that in Rand McNally, everyone walks on their noses, and hamburgers eat people. To which Bart replies Cool!. rant on I also don't like the way dates are written in other parts of the world. I frequently see dates written as YY/MM/DD (Canadian) and as DD/MM/YY (British). Why can't we all agree on MM/DD/YY as THE one true correct standard? When you use dates in a spoken sentence, you say July 23, 2002. So why not write it that way numerically? rant off Now, if we could just get everybody to drop that metric and 220V 50Hz crap... ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:36 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. * Tracking #: FEA6A5084AAA1B4FBBCEA608A0CD8D2459FF9143 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On 12:00 PM 23/07/2002 +0930, Terry Creer said: Actually, now that beta testing is completed (well, according to the press release yesterday it is), does that mean that the beta testers can actually let the cat out of the bag? TC No. * Tracking #: BF8D5770B712FC41B3EB8A27A943DA3DE91D8DDA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
Agree with Toni. I like it, too. Igor -Original Message- From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 23 July 2002 12:48 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:23 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. Speaking of Protel Bugs . . . What are the odds on whether your favorite Bug has been fixed in DXP? 1. ) I am betting that the Keyboard / Mouse problem that has been there since Protel 98 has not been fixed. What problem is this you're talking about? 2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is still there (yes Ian, I know that you like it, and I know that you wrote a routine to fx it, but it still is backwards and unlike no other system in the world). What is not intuitive about their panning? It seems to work pretty well. Have you ever tried to pan in MS Excel? As soon as I move my cursor to the bottom of the screen, I'm in cell 22,305! Talk about crappy panning. 3. ) I am also betting that Protel's Print Dialogue box is also still backwards as compared to the rest of the world (For those that don't consider the way that Protel handles printing a bug, go play with Adobe Acrobat (or any other Windows Application) for a while then come back to Protel to see how it it is not done right). Also, show me one other major application in the Windows world that has a Print Icon on a toolbar that invokes a Printer Dialog Box that will not print anything at all, as the one in the PCB 3-D View (It only does printer setup). That's because printing is much more complex in P99. There are numerous layers and options to consider, so when you press the print icon, the app will focus onthe PCBPrint process. You can then chose what you want to print from there. I think it's fine. This isn't just another typical Windows app. Why should it act like one? People like the special way Protel handles selection vs. focus. Name another app that does that. Speaking about the ability of any other Windows Application: I really HATE IT when I'm working on a document in MS Word and I decide to change my print driver for HP Laserjet to Acrobat and all my FRICKIN' PAGE FORMATTING CHANGES!! You what that to be our MODEL for success. Please! Why can't MS word and these damn print drivers just print what I see on my screen!??? Why does my screen change when I change drivers?? What a PITA that is! 4. ) I guess my one real question will be what have the done with Schematic. Will it still act like a bastard sibling that has been hastily patched into a system where it is totally foreign function wise, or have they actually taken the time to properly integrate it into the environment so that things like panning, zooming, and function keys, will work the same as within the other applications. When I saw it at the PCB show several months ago, it did the things you mentioned (Panning and zooming) I'm not sure what you mean about the F keys. Who's giving what odds? What else do you have for the list? No fair on you guys who have been beta testing letting the cat out of the bag. Cat's still in the bag... ;) JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Tracking #: 194767ADA7AA1E4E85C23695D58B302A7C6D1DC3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
On 07:22 PM 22/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said: Speaking of Protel Bugs . . . What are the odds on whether your favorite Bug has been fixed in DXP? 1. ) I am betting that the Keyboard / Mouse problem that has been there since Protel 98 has not been fixed. What problem? 2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is still there (yes Ian, I know that you like it, and I know that you wrote a routine to fx it, but it still is backwards and unlike no other system in the world). I'm getting a little tired of this one - *you* may think it is wrong, others don't. Why do you insist on implying that others are wrong? I think you could respect others opinions a little by phrasing your complaint not as a bug (which it clearly isn't) but as merely your preference. Re-centering after a zoom (which is your preference, the lack of which you are calling a bug) can be demonstrated to require a mental refocussing especially on large screens - so an argument could be made that Protel, by not re-centering after a pan (Home key) is better. No bug here. 3. ) I am also betting that Protel's Print Dialogue box is also still backwards as compared to the rest of the world (For those that don't consider the way that Protel handles printing a bug, go play with Adobe Acrobat (or any other Windows Application) for a while then come back to Protel to see how it it is not done right). You are not being clear here. What do you see as the issue? I can see differences between printing in all sorts of applications. What exactly do you not like in Protels Sch and PCB printing? Also, show me one other major application in the Windows world that has a Print Icon on a toolbar that invokes a Printer Dialog Box that will not print anything at all, as the one in the PCB 3-D View (It only does printer setup). Minor issue. We know that the 3D viewer, as it stands, is a premature, inadequate, bit of marketing fluff. Hardly worth commenting on it. 4. ) I guess my one real question will be what have the done with Schematic. Will it still act like a bastard sibling that has been hastily patched into a system where it is totally foreign function wise, or have they actually taken the time to properly integrate it into the environment so that things like panning, zooming, and function keys, will work the same as within the other applications. Panning - home key works the same in both PCB and Sch. Right-click drag is not supported in P99SE Sch. What is your complaint? Zooming - the same in both PCB and Sch. What is your complaint? Function Keys - what would you like to be common across Sch and PCB? JaMi, fess up, cobber - you were beta testing (just like I was). Stop playing silly games. You know exactly what has been fixed and what hasn't. Ian Wilson * Tracking #: 23394880BF62BE4A8F49C0017786060CD7C00131 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
