Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Dunn PRONI Burial Record Question: Donagheady Parish

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Kerry,


There are 2 Church of Ireland churches in Donagheady parish. Donagheady
itself and Dunnalong. It looks as though this burial was conducted by the
Minister from Dunnalong. Unless the register happens to say where the
burial took place (some were meticulous about recording that, most
weren’t), it could be anywhere in the parish.


Elwyn

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 2:28 AM, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hello Kerry,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your query.
>
>
>
> St. John’s C of I, Dunnalong, Bready, Co. Tyrone  was erected 1864/5 to
> serve the lower section of Donagheady parish; the first perpetual curate
> was  Rev. Frederick Clark (formerly curate of Donagheady parish church,
> Earlesgift,  Donemana. http://leckpatrick.derry.anglican.org/
> dunnalongwrittenhistory.htm
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/11287317@N04/2402226243/
>
> There is a graveyard attached; perhaps Ellen was an earlier interment.
>
> Have looked at the transcriptions of inscribed headstones at Donagheady
> Old Burial Ground, Benowen, Donemana and Grange Old Burial Ground – several
> for Dunn families, but none commemorate Ellen.  You have not stated her age
> at death nor the townland address.
>
>
>
> Her burial is not recorded in the burial register of Donagheady parish
> church which may be searched on the Bready Ancestry
> http://www.breadyancestry.com/ although many Dunns are – it may be
> worthwhile to check out the many marriages and baptisms for family
> connections.
>
>
>
> Her death was not announced in any of the Londonderry papers.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the negative news, but hope this assists in your understanding
> of the situation as things were in Donagheady (and Ireland) at that time.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
> --
> *From:* CoTyroneList  on behalf
> of Kerry Dunn via CoTyroneList 
> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2018 9:47:58 AM
> *To:* CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List
> *Cc:* Kerry Dunn
> *Subject:* [CoTyroneMailingList] Dunn PRONI Burial Record Question:
> Donagheady Parish
>
>
> Hello Listers,
>
>
>
> This is a basic question and I am fairly new to genealogy research. I hope
> to call upon Listers’ wisdom to understand a PRONI record.
>
>
>
> The record for my ancestor, Ellen Taggart Dunn who died 7 Nov 1872, states
> that she was buried in Donagheady Parish, ceremony conducted by R. Clarke
> of Dunnalog. Does this mean that she was buried at the COI Donagheady
> Parish church in Donemana or just somewhere in the Parish?
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help!
>
> Kerry Dunn
>
> Albany, California
>
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>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Gibson Ancestors

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Nancy,

James will says that he had a farm in Ballee (which he left to his 2
sisters). Looking at the Valuation revision records for Ballee, I see 2
Porter farms there. Plot 16 was James senior and consisted of 28 acres, 1
rood & 25 perches. It was rented from the Abercorn estate. The tenant
changes to Jane in 1889, James in 1901 and reps of James in 1908 (ie he had
died). The farm was purchased under the Land Act in 1906 (ie with a
government mortgage).



Adjacent on plot 17 was James Porter junior with an almost identical 28
acres 2 roods & 25 perches. It changes to Margaret in 1889, then to John
Stevenson in 1890. In addition John senior & John junior had a quarter
share of some common land on plot 20.



Senior & junior in Griffiths usually indicates father & son.



Presumably this is John junior in 1901:



http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Ballymagorry/Ballee/1753244/



Same household in 1911:



http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Ballymagorry/Ballee/849631/



Those 2 farms today are on the Ballee Rd and the Towncastle Rd.



Some references in PRONI in the Abercorn Estate papers: D623/A/127/32
21.8.1814: John McCrea's farm at Ballymagorry sold for £620 to James
*Porter* of *Ballee*, a most respectable industrious young man.



D623/B/12/13 31 January 1835 Marquess of Abercorn, to John *Porter*,
*Ballee*, Co. Tyrone. Lease for one life or 21 years of 40a.0r.31p. Statute
measure of land at *Ballee*. Rent £20.19.9. Covenants with all rights,
members, privileges and appurtenances belonging or appertaining.



D623/B/13/108  10 March 1862 John *Porter*, *Ballee*, Co. Tyrone, to Robert
McCleery, *Ballee. *Conveyance of 69a.2r.1p. of farmland at *Ballee*.
Consideration £200.


Hope this is of interest.


Elwyn

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 2:43 AM, Peter Kincaid via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Did your Mary Margaret (Porter) Gibson return to County Tyrone?  I see the
> following abstract for a Margaret Porter in Ballee:
>
> Title : Mrs Date of Death : 11 November 1927
> Surname : Gibson Date of Grant : 19 November 1956
> Forename : Margaret Reseal Date :
> Registry : Londonderry Effects : Effects £25 0s 0d
> No Image
> Full Abstract :
> Gibson Margaret of Ballee Strabane county Tyrone widow died 11 November
> 1927 Probate Londonderry 19 November to Robert John Gibson farmer. Effects
> £25.
>
> If not her, then likely a relative.
>
> Kincaids were in Ballee townland as well.  There was a Kincaid-Porter
> union in the mid 1800s in Londonderry:
>
> On 25 November 1862, Andrew Kinkaid, a full age bachelor farmer of
> Dundrain, son of John Kinkaid, farmer, was married to Jane Porter, a 20
> year old spinster of Elagh, daughter of Andrew Porter, farmer at Ballyarnet
> Parish Church, Templemore Parish, County Londonderry to the form and
> discipline of the Presbyterian Church by license by Robert McCreery.  The
> witnesses were William Robinson and George Adair [Ireland.  Civil
> Registrations of Marriages.  Londonderry, 1862, vol. 7, p. 261, no. 47; LDS
> film no. 101438].
>
> While in the Glasgow area, this Kincaid family hailed from Ireland and I
> suspect them to be from Donagheady Parish (Maghereagh and Drummeny
> connections).  I thought I'd add it here in case the name fit with some of
> yours.
>
> The Statutory Death Registers records the death of Margaret Porter
> "suddenly in Alexander Kincaid's house Levern Bank, Neilston"  on 5 August
> 1880 at Levern Bank, Neilston, being a 60 year old daughter of the deceased
> William Kincaid, miller, and the deceased Janet Ferrie and spouse of 1)
> George Porter, shoemaker, and 2) Joseph Porter, shoemaker.  Her sister Jean
> Kincaid was present at her death [GROS, Neilston District, Renfrew County,
> 572/01 0069.  p. 23, no. 69].
>
> Peter Kincaid
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:45 PM, Nancy via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
>>  My great-great-grandfather John Thomas Gibson was born in County
>> Tyrone, Northern Ireland (Strabane) in 1802. He attended Donagheady
>> Presbyterian Church. he  came to America in 1830 with his wife Mary
>> Margaret Porter. They settled in Franklin , Kentucky. I’m trying to find
>> out who his parents were . The family received letters from Margaret Porter
>> (Mary’s Aunt) 1816-1894 she mentions her Brother James Porter 1800-1884 and
>> sister Rebecca 1806-1893.(the 3 never married) I can find their wills but
>> can’t find anything in a census where they lived with Mary Margaret or
>> John’s parents. The siblings had some kind of land they leased out . The
>> letters were written in 1833.   She mentions Aunt Holmes..Thomas Boyd, Sir
>> John and Carol out of Mayors office and Humphreys is in. Mentions their
>> neighbors in Ballee Todd.  In 1886  she mentions a Sarah Gibson getting 2
>> letters  from Kentucky and and 1 letter from Rebekah’s son (this is not the
>> same Rebecca ,her sister)  Could Sarah be John’s mother.??? I 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrisons of Loughterush townland (kilskeery)

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Rick,


There aren’t any specific lists of people who settled in Ireland as part of
the Plantation and other population movements in the 1600s. All we really
know are the names of the big tenants (Undertakers) and where in Scotland
they came from.  But there are no lists of the tenants that accompanied
them.



However there are no Morrisons in the Kilskeery area in the 1630 Muster
Rolls. That tends to suggest that your family may have arrived in the area
post 1630, either direct from Scotland or perhaps having relocated from
another part of Ulster, making it trickier to identify their origins.



Elwyn

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hello All,
> I was able to locate our ancestral farm in Loughterush (and actually
> visited it last year), which was in the family up until around 1970 when
> the last Morrison on it passed away. I have traced ancestors on the
> farm back to James Morrison (for whom I do not have a birth date, but was
> likely born around 1800). I have been assuming that our Morrisons
> originally came from Scotland, but do not know when.
>
> Can anyone point me to records that might give specific information
> regarding individuals who came to this specific townland (as part of the
> British planter/ colonization that occurred in the 16th-18th centuries)?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rick Smoll
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrisons of Loughterush townland (kilskeery)

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Rick,

In the early 1600s, the English & Scottish undertakers (ie big landholders)
were required to “Have ready in their houses at all times a convenient
store of arms, wherewith they may furnish a competent number of men for
their defence, which may be viewed and mustered every half year, according
to the manner of England.”



We don’t really know to what extent each undertaker actually followed those
instructions but where they did the local Muster Rolls could contain a list
of every able bodied adult male in the given area. The complete absence of
Morrisons in both Fermanagh & Tyrone (save for the 2 in Strabane) would
suggest to me they hadn’t arrived in big numbers at that time. There’s 329
of them in the 1901 Fermanagh & Tyrone census. None in Fermanagh in 1630
and just 2 in Tyrone. There were a lot of undertakers estates in those 2
counties. If Morrisons were present in significant numbers then you would
expect more to show in the Muster Rolls, even allowing for some estates
that didn't keep records..



I agree with Les that we can’t say for certain, but my feeling is they
hadn’t arrived in Kilskeery by 1630.





Elwyn

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Variations in spelling are of little consequence Rick as much was spelt
> phonetically in the past.
>
>
>
> The Scots arrived in the North of Ireland in several waves dependent upon
> political and religious conditions in Scotland. Many settlers returned to
> their homeland as a result of the 1641 Rebellion
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1641 but returned once
> peace had been restored. Following the Relief of the Siege of Londonderry
> in 1689 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Derry and the defeat of
> the forces of James II great numbers of new settlers arrived.
>
>
>
> My thoughts are that it will not be possible to ascertain the date of your
> forebears arrival in Kilskeery parish
>
> Regards, Len Swindley
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
> --
> *From:* Rick Smoll 
> *Sent:* Monday, July 23, 2018 11:19:46 PM
> *To:* len_swind...@hotmail.com
> *Subject:* Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrisons of Loughterush townland
> (kilskeery)
>
> Thanks Len
> I checked Fermanagh … there was one Alex. Morison (note one s) in Barony
> de Magerbuy (with "sword and pike"). No way to tell at this point whether
> this is an ancestor of mine, though. Given all your experience, would you
> guess that my Morrisons came to Kilskeery at a much later date?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Rick Smoll
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Len Swindley 
> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
> Cc: rsmoll999 
> Sent: Sat, Jul 21, 2018 6:43 pm
> Subject: RE: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrisons of Loughterush townland
> (kilskeery)
>
> There are only two Morrisons recorded in the Tyrone muster rolls, both
> mustered in the Town of Strabane:
>
> Robert MORISON (sic)
> David MORRISON
> Extracted from *Men and Armes; The Ulster Settlers c1630* (Ulster
> Historical Foundation)
>
> Perhaps your Morrison forebears originally settled in Co. Fermanagh?
>
> Hope this clarifies things,
>
> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> --
> *From:* CoTyroneList  on behalf
> of rsmoll999 via CoTyroneList 
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 22, 2018 4:39:09 AM
> *To:* CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List
> *Cc:* rsmoll999
> *Subject:* Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrisons of Loughterush townland
> (kilskeery)
>
> Thanks for your response and information!
>
> Narrows it down some anyway. I guess i just need to keep searching for
> records of my Morrison ancestors there until i get all the way back to the
> 1600s ... only about 6 more to go!
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
>
> Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.
>
>  Original message 
> From: elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList 
> Date: 7/21/18 6:17 AM (GMT-06:00)
> To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" 
> Cc: elwyn soutter 
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrisons of Loughterush townland
> (kilskeery)
>
> Rick,
>
> There aren’t any specific lists of people who settled in Ireland as part
> of the Plantation and other population movements in the 1600s. All we
> really know are the names of the big tenants (Undertakers) and where in
> Scotland they came from.  But there are no lists of the tenants that
> accompanied them.
>
> However there are no Morrisons in the Kilskeery area in the 1

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrisons of Loughterush townland

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Lisa,



The births and marriage were before the start of statutory registration in
Ireland (1864 for births and 1845 for non RC marriages). So you will have
to search church records, where they still exist. To do that ideally you
need to know the family denomination and their townland or parish.



If it helps at all, the 1901 census for Tyrone lists just 39 Masons, 19 of
whom were Presbyterian and the remainder Church of Ireland or Methodist. So
those seem the likely denominations. Methodism didn’t get going as a
separate denomination in Ireland till 1816 at the earliest, and the 1870s
at the latest. There are no Methodist marriages in Ireland prior to 1835.
Most Methodists were originally Church of Ireland.



Mason is not a native Irish name and the fact that all the Masons in Tyrone
were either Presbyterian or Church of Ireland points to them being
incomers, either from Scotland (likely for the Presbyterians) or perhaps
from England. Most are likely to have arrived in the 1600s.



If you don’t know where your family originated, you could look at Griffiths
Valuation which lists where Mason families could be found in the county in
1859.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch



There were only 19 listed and in just 7 or 8 parishes. Griffiths isn’t a
census and so doesn’t list every single household but in the absence of
other clues it’s somewhere to start. I would focus on Church of Ireland and
Presbyterian records within the 7 or 8 parishes. Copies of most of those
records are in PRONI in Belfast and you need to go there in person to look
them up. Not all early church records have survived. Some were never kept
in the first place and many Church of Ireland records have been lost due to
the 1922 fire, but many do exist.



Good luck.





Elwyn

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:37 PM, Lisa Audette via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Thank you all for your continued emails. I find them fascinating and just
> love the history. I too am searching for my ancestors in County Tyrone and
> am planning planning a trip next year to celebrate my 50th! My first time
> to Ireland.
>
> I am looking for the MASON family. Samuel Curtiss Mason born 1808
> somewhere in County Tyrone. He married Mary Ann Tate born 1811 (can't find
> proof for her last name just found it on someone else's tree). Can't find
> anything to show them leaving Ireland together.  But I feel they would have
> married first before emigrating. Their first child James was born in Clarke
> Township, Durham County, Canada in 1834. After many children Samuel and
> Mary then moved to Port Austin Michigan in 1871. Most of the children went
> to the USA but my family line moved from Durham to St Williams in Norfolk
> County Ontario.
>
> I'm looking for other Mason's in County Tyrone. Or members of the Tate
> family.
>
> Interestingly I did my DNA and found a high match in Dungannon. Her family
> includes McKnights and McIntyres! I started her tree but can't find the
> connection.
>
> My sister proposed that the MASON family  was originally from Scotland and
> moved to Ireland Nothing to prove that... just a thought.
>
> Any help, guidance, information or suggestions re research would be most
> appreciated!
>
> Many thanks!!
>
> Lisa Mason-Audette
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList
>  wrote:
> ___
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>
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] sailing information

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Possibly worth bearing in mind that whilst there were direct ships from
Ireland to Canada and elsewhere throughout the 1800s, there were far more
from Liverpool. Liverpool acted as a clearing house for migrants from all
over Europe, and had far more departures than from Ireland. Competition for
the passengers was fierce with ships agents routinely throwing in cost of
the short passage from Ireland to Liverpool free (together with dodgy
accommodation in Liverpool), as part of the ticket price. Many more
migrants in the 1800s left Ireland via Liverpool than left directly from
Ireland. Significant numbers also left via Glasgow. For background, see:



http://donegalancestry.com/donegal/emigration/



Elwyn

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:20 PM Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hi Lola
>
> I hope you are well and had a good summer. I have searched the Quebec
> Mercury for information on the shipping news as youi suggested and it was
> wonderful. I believe my family probably took one of G.H. Parke ships as
> their line made the most crossings and some such as the Dumfries Shire is
> listed as having 276 steerage passengers. I have tried to access the
> Belfast newsletter as you suggested in hopes more information is there but
> I can only find subscriptions to it? Could you tell me if it is a paid or
> free site you are using? I also wonder if you know anything about the G.H.
> Parke co. as there seems to be nothing on line about them? Thank you for
> your help.
>
> cheers
>
> Ron McCoy
>
> On 2018-08-18 11:07 AM, Iola Whiteside via CoTyroneList wrote:
>
> Hi Ron,  Iola here.   I just google both the Belfast Newsletter archives
> and the Quebec Mercury.  The webpage for the Mercury is in French but the
> newspaper printed in English.  It is east to navigate.  Just click on the
> calendar ikon on the right side, find the year, month etc.  I took a quick
> look and the ships arriving in 1828 are listed.  I hope this helps and let
> me know if I can be of further assistance.
> Iola.
>
> *From:* Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList 
> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2018 10:44 PM
> *To:* cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com
> *Cc:* Ron McCoy 
> *Subject:* Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] sailing information
>
>
> Hi All
>
> Thanks for the information. The lack of shipping list is a problem and as
> has been noted travel between Canada and Ireland was not registered. A real
> problem... I have tried the steam ship lines from Quebec to Montreal with
> out success but they also ran Bateaux service which is how I assume they
> must have come. I think  the suggestion of the Belfast News, The Quebec
> Mercury or the JJ Cooke shipping records might give me the names of ships
> that would have sailed out of Belfast and arrived in Quebec in the time I
> suspect. That would be a great help.
>
> Iola would you have the online site that these can be found on? Thank you
> all for your help
>
> Cheers
>
> Ron McCoy
>
> On 2018-08-17 9:33 AM, Elizabeth Vervaeke via CoTyroneList wrote:
>
> My family came from Brackagh (Errigal  Keerogue)
> through Londonderry on the Sesosthis in 1847 .  I was able to find their
> passenger list from the JJ Cooke Shipping records . There are many ships
> listed.
> Perhaps it’s worth a search here ...
>
> https://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/qu_seth1847.shtml
>
> Kind Regards
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 9:30 AM Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>> I have tried several times to find sailing records for the year 1828
>> from Belfast to Canada. This is the year I believe my family and their
>> neighbours left Tyrone and immigrated. However I am told there is no
>> passenger records in the early years of the 1800's. I was wondering if
>> there was  a list some where of just ships names that sailed even if
>> there was not passenger lists. I am confident that they sailed after
>> iceberg season and arrived in the Montreal area around the end of August
>> or beginning of September of 1838. If I had a list of ships sailing out
>> of Belfast I might be able to deduce which ship they sailed on? If
>> anyone has experience or an idea where ships names or records that might
>> have sailed from Belfast it would be of great interest to me?
>> Cheers
>> Ron McCoy
>>
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>>
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>>
> --
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> e.verva...@gmail.com
>
>
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> 

[CoTyroneMailingList] Life in Tyrone in the 19th century

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

>From a recent post about farming in Tyrone, I sense there is an interest in
day to day life in Tyrone in the 1800s. The following document might
therefore interest members of this forum. I found it in PRONI and thought
it gave a good description of life then.



*PRONI Reference : *

T2279/2



MEMORIES OF DUNGANNON, FLAX, THE BIG WIND, TRAVEL, EMIGRATION, POTATO
BLIGHT, FAMINE





Notes and reminiscences dictated to me during the winter of 1904-5 by my
father James Brown Donaghmore, [Co. Tyrone] [signed] Nora Brown.



'I was born on 25 July 1823 in the old house in Donaghmore, now a part of
the soap works. My father was David Brown, son of John Brown who married
Miss McClelland and lived in Mullaghmore. Miss McClelland's brother married
my grandfather's sister and also lived in Mullaghmore. My father had one
brother John who lived in Irish Street and carried on a bakery. He married
Miss Jane McDowell. My mother was Betty, daughter of Henry King of
Middletown Co Monaghan.'



'When first married, my parents lived in a small house in Mullaghmore,
since pulled down, and afterwards in a house in Donaghmore opposite the
chapel. Then they moved to the house where I was born. They had ten
children. Mary married Richard Tener; Henry married Jane Carr; Ann and
Thomas who died in childhood. Margaret married Henry Oliver; Eliza married
Robert Smith; Jane married Thomas Lilburn; Amelia married Joseph Acheson;
Isabella married John Beatty and myself who married Jane Ellen Nicholson.'



'The first thing I can remember is a servant of ours Mary Mullen going to
America on St. Patrick's Day 1828. She and the rest of her party drove to
Belfast in a cart to sail thence to America. They took with them provisions
for the journey, chiefly oat cakes, as then was the custom. The outward
voyage averaged 30 days, but occasionally was 6 or 7 weeks and on these
occasions provisions ran short and the poor people were in danger of
starvation.'



'Another early recollection is being taken into a darkened bedroom to see a
little play fellow, who was ill of smallpox, there being little knowledge
of the risk of infection then.'



'My first teacher was Mr Richard Robinson whose school was in the space now
planted with trees behind the cross. It was then the only school in the
village. Later I had lessons at home from Mr Stuart who taught the R[oman]
C[atholic] school in Dungannon.'



'After leaving the village school I was sent to my sister Mary Tener in
Perry Street where her husband had a grocer's shop and I attended a school
kept by two teachers from the South of Ireland, Messrs Murphy and Riordan.
Afterwards I lived with my sister Margaret in Church Street where her
husband carried on a saddlery trade and I went to Mr Burch's school on the
Castle Hill. I remained here until I was nearly 13 when in the summer of
1836 I went to the Rev. John Bleckley's school in Monaghan. Here I stayed
until I was sent for to come to the death bed of my father on 17 November
1837. He died on 22 November and I did not return to school, but went to
business with my brother in Donaghmore.'



'Previous to the year 1816 my father was engaged in the linen trade giving
out home spun yarn and getting it woven in hand looms in the cottages. At
that time a good deal of the linen trade was transacted in Dublin, not
Belfast, probably in consequence of better banking facilities. My father
used to go to Dublin to sell his linen, in company of other merchants. They
rode on horse back, in parties, for protection from highwaymen, the journey
to Dublin occupying three days. In later years when the linen trade in
Belfast had increased, buyers for the bleachers came to Dungannon every
Thursday and took their places on the "standings" on the east side of the
square where the farmers brought the webs, woven by their families and
servants. The "standings" were benches with boards in front of them, on
which the webs were thrown for examination. When the price was arranged the
buyer put his mark on it and the seller took it to Mr Robert Tener in Perry
Street who measured it. He got a few pence for each web measured, in
consideration for which he supplied the buyers with dinner.'



'Travellers then wishing to go to Belfast, used to leave Dungannon at 4 am
on a long car which took them by Moy and Loughgall to Portadown. Here they
joined John Byer's coach, running between Armagh and Belfast, reaching the
latter place about 1 pm.'



'During the war with Napoleon prices for agricultural produce were high,
but the peace of 1815 was followed by a time of great depression, partly
caused by two bad seasons, a very wet summer and a very dry one. During the
latter the corn was so short it could not be reaped in the usual way but
had to be pulled. The depression in the linen trade caused my father to
open a bakery in Donaghmore and I remember his telling me that the first
flour he used was American and cost 4 guineas[1] <#_ftn1> a barrel.'



'About the year 1820 partly from the 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] IRWINS from Clogher, County Tyrone

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Gail,


 
For information, the Christopher Irwin inthe 1901 census married Ann Carson on 
17.1.1855 in Clogher Church of Ireland.He was 22 and a widower. He lived in 
Clare More (sometimes spelled Clayermore)and his father was Thomas Irwin, a 
farmer. (Christopher previously had marriedElizabeth Moore on 17.12.1849, again 
in Clogher Church of Ireland).


 
In 1829, according to the tithe applotmentrecords, there were 4 Irwin farms in 
Clare More – John, Samuel, Thomas  


 
http://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/clogher.html


 
Looking at Griffiths Valuation of ClareMore in 1860 there’s a Thomas Irwin 
farming plot 2, an 11 acre farm, andChristopher on plot 4 a 12 acre farm. There 
were 3 other Irwin holdings in thetownland (William, Samuel & John) so they may 
be relations. Plots 2 & 4today are on the Tullycorker Rd, a mile or so north of 
Clogher town. I had alook in the local phone book and there don’t appear to be 
any Irwins listedthere today, but with no many people not being listed these 
days, that’s notconclusive.


 
A couple of probate abstracts taken fromthe PRONI wills site:


 
Irwin Christopher of Claremore Augher county Tyrone farmer died27 March 1923 
Administration (with Will) Belfast 11 June to Charlotte Irwinwidow. Effects £40.


 
Irwin John of Claremore county Tyrone farmer died 12 February1925 
Administration (with Will) Londonderry 31 March to John Irwin farmer.Effects 
£67 1s. 10d.


 
The wills themselves are not on-line but are available in PRONIin paper format.


 

 

 

 

 

 
Elwyn



  From: "m00...@mymts.net" 
 To: Elwyn Soutter  
Cc: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List ; Ron 
McCoy ; Len Swindley 
 Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2018, 19:57
 Subject: Re: IRWINS from Clogher, County Tyrone
   
WOW Elwyn- I am blown away by your speedy and rich response to my appeal! Your 
leads will form the basis for my further investigation.  Your obvious extensive 
skill level and your generosity of time and willingness in lending these 
abilities to a complete stranger is appreciated more than I can adequately 
express.Thank you so much,Gail 

From: "Elwyn Soutter" 
To: m00...@mymts.net, "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" 

Cc: "Ron McCoy" , "Len Swindley" 

Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:01:15 PM
Subject: Re: IRWINS from Clogher, County Tyrone

Gail,
Statutory marriage registration started in Irelandin 1845 (save for RC 
marriages). Statutory birth registration started in 1864(as did RC marriage 
registration). So the Irwin-McCutcheon marriage and alltheir Irish born 
children are well before those start dates. So you won’t finda marriage 
certificate or birth certificates for the family. You might find the marriage 
in church records,and the children’s baptisms. However not all churches have 
records for thoseyears, and not all the surviving records are on-line. Irwin & 
McCutcheon are both fairly commonScottish names (Irwin tends to be Irving in 
Scotland) and so if the family werePresbyterian, and lived in Tyrone, then 
there is every chance they areUlster-Scots. They likely arrived in the 1600s. 
There are 3 Presbyterian churches in theClogher area. Aughentaine has baptisms 
from 1836 and marriages from 1845;Carntall or Clogher has baptisms 1819-1845 
after which there is a gap. Marriagesfrom 1829; Glenhoy has no records before 
1852. Clogher Church of Ireland hasbaptisms from 1763 and marriages from 1777 
(with some gaps). Fivemiletown hasrecords from 1804. None of the above records 
appear to beon-line. However there are copies in PRONI (the public record 
office) inBelfast. A personal visit is required to view them though. If you 
can’t get toPRONI yourself you might want to hire a Belfast based researcher to 
look themup for you. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s churchso unless 
bride & groom happened to attend the same church, you might findthe marriage in 
one church and the baptisms in another.  Families often used the same names 
overagain so if, for example, your Christopher had a brother who remained 
inIreland, it wouldn’t be too surprising if that brother named a son 
Christophertoo. I searched the 1901 census for Tyrone and found just 1 family 
using thename. Might be a coincidence or it might be a relation. However Clare 
More,where they lived, was in the parish of Clogher, so probably worth a punt.: 
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Cecil/Clare_More/1725692/
 I note that the above family was Church ofIreland. (Not all Scots settlers 
were Presbyterian). So I would include Churchof Ireland records in your search 
too.

Elwyn

  From: "m00...@mymts.net" 
 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
Cc: Elwyn Soutter ; Ron McCoy 
; Len Swindley 
 Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2018, 17:59
 Subject: IRWINS from Clogher, County Tyrone
  
Greetings All, my request may be a repeat, please bear with me if so.
I am a 70-year-old Canadian woman (in Manitoba) who is hoping to establish the 
family origins of my Great-Great Grandfather, CHRISTOPHER 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] IRWINS from Clogher, County Tyrone

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Gail,
Statutory marriage registration started in Irelandin 1845 (save for RC 
marriages). Statutory birth registration started in 1864(as did RC marriage 
registration). So the Irwin-McCutcheon marriage and alltheir Irish born 
children are well before those start dates. So you won’t finda marriage 
certificate or birth certificates for the family.


 
You might find the marriage in church records,and the children’s baptisms. 
However not all churches have records for thoseyears, and not all the surviving 
records are on-line.


 
Irwin & McCutcheon are both fairly commonScottish names (Irwin tends to be 
Irving in Scotland) and so if the family werePresbyterian, and lived in Tyrone, 
then there is every chance they areUlster-Scots. They likely arrived in the 
1600s.


 
There are 3 Presbyterian churches in theClogher area. Aughentaine has baptisms 
from 1836 and marriages from 1845;Carntall or Clogher has baptisms 1819-1845 
after which there is a gap. Marriagesfrom 1829; Glenhoy has no records before 
1852. Clogher Church of Ireland hasbaptisms from 1763 and marriages from 1777 
(with some gaps). Fivemiletown hasrecords from 1804.


 
None of the above records appear to beon-line. However there are copies in 
PRONI (the public record office) inBelfast. A personal visit is required to 
view them though. If you can’t get toPRONI yourself you might want to hire a 
Belfast based researcher to look themup for you.


 
Tradition was to marry in the bride’s churchso unless bride & groom happened to 
attend the same church, you might findthe marriage in one church and the 
baptisms in another. 


 
Families often used the same names overagain so if, for example, your 
Christopher had a brother who remained inIreland, it wouldn’t be too surprising 
if that brother named a son Christophertoo. I searched the 1901 census for 
Tyrone and found just 1 family using thename. Might be a coincidence or it 
might be a relation. However Clare More,where they lived, was in the parish of 
Clogher, so probably worth a punt.:


 
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Cecil/Clare_More/1725692/


 
I note that the above family was Church ofIreland. (Not all Scots settlers were 
Presbyterian). So I would include Churchof Ireland records in your search too.



Elwyn

  From: "m00...@mymts.net" 
 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
Cc: Elwyn Soutter ; Ron McCoy 
; Len Swindley 
 Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2018, 17:59
 Subject: IRWINS from Clogher, County Tyrone
   
Greetings All, my request may be a repeat, please bear with me if so.
I am a 70-year-old Canadian woman (in Manitoba) who is hoping to establish the 
family origins of my Great-Great Grandfather, CHRISTOPHER HAMILTON IRWIN, born 
1821, who I understand lived in the Clogher area of County Tyrone, emigrating 
to Canada in around 1850 with his wife Jane (born McCutcheon in 1824) and their 
older, Ireland-born children:
1) John - March 4, 1841 / 2) Robert - Feb. 12, 1845 / 3) Margaret - __ 1847 /  
4) Christopher - Jan. 25, 1849 / 5) Baby Boy - born and died at sea during the 
crossing.  Settling in Port Hope, Ontario, they added the following children:  
6) William H. - __ 1853 / 7) Alexander - June 15, 1855 (My Great-Grandfather) / 
8) Mary Ann - __ 1857 / 9) Rebecca - __ 1859 / 10) Stewart Jackson - Feb. 28, 
1863 / 11) Sarah - Aug. 27, 1864 / 12) Anne Jane - __ 1868
The family were listed as Presbyterians in Canadian census records, which I am 
told makes it likely that these Irwins were Ulster-Scots.
Any tips that I receive will be greatly appreciated.  I have taken a DNA test 
through ancestry.ca, as has my elderly Uncle, Raymond Clare Irwin, who is the 
last of Alexander's children still with us.With thanks,(Mrs.) Gail (Irwin) 
Mooneye-mail : m00...@mymts.net  (that's two zero's following the first "m")

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Ron,


 
It’s sometimes possible to see our ancestors’lives through rose tinted glasses. 
Sometimes they didn’t live all that well, whether through fecklessnessor simply 
poverty. You are scathing about the description of houses where youcan see 
“pigs and fowls in the kitchen and everything is dirty.” The thing is,that is 
factually correct. That is how poorer folk did live. My own grandmotherwas 
brought up in a farm labourers cottage in the 1890s and she described abare 
earth floor where chickens and ducks wandered in and out through the 
door,defecating all over the place. They weren’t wealthy enough to have a pig 
but itwas common enough for livestock to be kept under the same roof, for 
securityand warmth. It must have been dirty and smelly, just as the OS 
descriptiontells us. You can see cottages like that today in the Cultra Folk 
Park museumoutside Belfast.  But that way of livingwas common enough in the 
1700s and 1800s, across Europe not just here inIreland. Up on the famous 
Scottish Island of St Kilda (150 miles north ofIreland) they had a dreadful 
neo-natal death rate. During the winter months, thesheep and cows were kept in 
the house alongside the family, at one end of thebuilding. A visiting nurse 
eventually discovered that whenever a child wasborn, the family dipped the end 
of the umbilical chord in the animal and humanmanure inside the building “for 
good luck.” Consequently half the babies caughtfatal diseases. And that was in 
the late 1800s.


 
Yousay: “The time period scribes never seems to mention how hard working 
thesepeople are, how close knit the families be, the way communities work 
togetheror the weight of unfair and unjust economic burdens they struggle under 
andstill survive and more they insist on thriving in the face of 
greatadversity”. What’s your evidence for that? Unless people have changed a 
lotover the past 200 years, I would expect they were the much same as today, a 
mixof hard workers, some who worked less hard and quite a few who led 
fairlydissipated lives. (Some of whom you can read about in the court 
newspaperreports on the Co Tyrone website.)


 
The men who compiled and wrote the OS memoirswere a mix of Army Officers and 
civilian assistants. (There’s a goodexplanation of who they were and how they 
worked at the beginning of everyvolume of the Memoirs). They weren’t all crusty 
upper class British Armyofficers. Many were non commissioned soldiers and 
civilian assistants. And the themesin the example Len quoted can be found 
elsewhere in reports for other Ulstercounties. So was there some vast 
conspiracy, do you think, or might thedescriptions (pejorative as they may seem 
at times) perhaps be reasonablyaccurate?


 

 
Elwyn


 

 


  From: Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList 
 To: "cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com"  
Cc: Ron McCoy 
 Sent: Friday, 26 October 2018, 12:52
 Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5
   
Hi Len and allThank you Len for sharing this with all of us. I read this and 
many other pieces of history. I  notice the trend through out of the lack of 
mention of positive attributes of the common people. Empathy for another human 
being is completely devoid in these reports. The time period scribes never 
seems to mention how hard working these people are, how close knit the families 
be, the way communities work together or the weight of unfair and unjust 
economic burdens they struggle under and still survive and more they insist on  
thriving in the face of great adversity. I think these Ordinances  are 
important pieces of history not as much about what they report or say on the 
surface to  us  but because they tell us a lot about the writer and the class 
structure he dwells in. It seems important to him to paint a portrait of the 
Irish working class people at a level of sub human strata (you may see pigs and 
fowls eating in the kitchen and everything is dirty ). The considerable 
hardships people are forced to live in are justified because of their moral 
depravity, "49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement in the 
morals and cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools". This article to 
me paints a picture of a people who are brave in the face of over whelming 
poverty, and unjust taxation without representation overseen by  absentee land 
lords. It speaks to me of a devotion to preserve the family and traditions at 
all costs. As people who are forced to struggle, their hope lies in their 
children and their children's, children, in other words "us". They would not 
allow themselves to quit, be broken, or trodden under, despite the written 
word, legal system and their betters opinion. They refused to think of 
themselves as less then any mans equal. They put all their hopes in the 
generations to come, they sacrificed everything to bring "us" into a safer , a 
better place... may we not let them down, may we never 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] The Food of Our Tyrone Forbears

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

The stir-about pot was hung on a swiveledarm over the open fire, and the 
housewife just dropped anything available intoit. Mainly potatoes and oats, and 
sometimes the odd onion. Meat was a rarity,though rabbits and so on were an 
occasional bonus.  It all went in together. Pretty basic stuff.


 
For those of a sentimental inclination, thestirabout pot gets a mention in the 
splendid cheesy old Percy French song: “TheEmigrant’s letter” (sometimes known 
as Cutting the Corn in Creeslough) written some time about 1890, about sailing 
asan emigrant from Derry to Quebec. 


 
https://www.irish-folk-songs.com/emigrants-letter-lyrics-and-guitar-chords.html


 
Guaranteed to bring a tear to the eye, BridieGallagher gives it her best here:


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8jeEEgI9mY


 

Elwyn 


  From: Len Swindley via CoTyroneList 
 To: "CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com"  
Cc: Len Swindley 
 Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2018, 11:43
 Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] The Food of Our Tyrone Forbears
   
 Hello Listers, 
  Following on from the items extracted from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs 
covering the habits and food of our Tyrone forebears, some clarification will 
be useful as to stirabout and flummery having received several off list 
queries:   STIRABOUT is a porridge made from oatmeal or cornmeal boiled in milk 
or water and stirred   FLUMMERY is a soft jelly or porridge made with flour or 
meal   Regards,Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia      Sent from Mail for 
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] A few thoughts on the Lt. Stother account

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Peter,
I take your point about the Lieutenant’slikely background but there are plenty 
of other contemporaneous descriptions oflife in Ireland in the mid 1800s, some 
written by respected Irish born people that tend tosupport his account of rural 
life. 


 
The image of spending 12 hours planting potatoes is suitably graphic but, the 
time spent plantingpotatoes each year wasn’t excessive. One of the many great 
aspects of potatoes is theyare a low maintenance crop. They are easy to plant, 
grow particularly well inmost Irish soil (save if blighted of course) and need 
very little attention.You stick them in and then forget about them. You don’t 
need to spend much timeon them at all. You also get more spuds to the acre than 
nearly any other cropand so if land is in short supply, and you have a large 
family – as was oftenthe case then – they are ideal. That then left the 
labourer free to undertakeother work, if there was any.  The easewith which 
potatoes grew, was one of the reasons why people were so reluctantto grow 
anything else, even when faced with possible blight.


Elwyn
 

 


  From: peter mcdonald via CoTyroneList 
 To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
Cc: peter mcdonald 
 Sent: Friday, 26 October 2018, 16:51
 Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] A few thoughts on the Lt. Stother account
   
> In the British army of the time, commissions, such as that of Lieutenant, 
> were acquired through purchase. The cheapest lieutenancy, in an infantry 
> regiment, cost seven hundred pounds. Access to that sort of money, roughly 
> equivalent to fifty-eight thousand pounds sterling today, places the 
> lieutenant in a social class unlikely to have had much contact with people 
> like our peasant ancestors. No wonder he was shocked.
Across Europe, subsistence farmers have shared their accommodation with their 
animals as a matter of course, partly to benefit from the heat generated by the 
beasts in winter. In parts of France, where I live, earthen floors and 
wandering livestock are still to be found. Anyone passing by many farms 
anywhere today would notice defunct machinery rusting away in farmyard or 
behind apparently ramshackle buildings. Farming, other than of the 
massive-scale, highly mechanised industrial variety, tends to be a messy 
business.
No doubt Tyrone then, as Tyrone today, had its share of ne'erdo wells, but it’s 
not easy to get up to mischief when you have just spent up to twelve hours 
planting the potatoes that you and your family will depend on through the 
winter, or cutting turf so you don’t die of cold.
We should not view our ancestors through rose-tinted glasses, but it is worth 
bearing in mind that the good lieutenant had his own prism when looking at a 
people who shared neither his background, nor his religious beliefs, nor yet, 
in many cases, his first language. He would have been viewed as the 
representative of an army of occupation by many in the Catholic population.
I hope this contributes usefully to the conversation around this account.



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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] The Big Wind of 1839

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Beverley,
You could try contacting the Local Studiessection at Omagh Library and asking 
them what they have. There ought to be some newspapers accounts and they may 
have personalaccounts from folk who were there.  Therelevant date seems to have 
been 6th Jan 1839.


 
https://www.thoughtco.com/irelands-big-wind-1774010


 

 
https://www.librariesni.org.uk/Libraries/Pages/Omagh-Library.aspx


 

 
Elwyn


 


  From: Beverley Ballantine via CoTyroneList 

 To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
Cc: Beverley Ballantine 
 Sent: Monday, 5 November 2018, 14:02
 Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] The Big Wind of 1839
   
Please add my thanks for the farming discussion.  Are there any specific 
incidents noted for Tyrone about the Big Wind of 1839?  I am reading the novel 
by Coogan.  Thank you.
Beverley Ballantine in Kentucky

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Irish Bally---ony

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

   
   - I don’t have any contemporary descriptions of Scots-Irish accents in 
Tyrone in the 1800s but I do have some from Antrim which suggest that at that 
period, the Ulster Scots spoke with a clear Scottish accent. (Today it has 
modified a bit though it  remains quite different from the rest of Ireland). I 
think Tyrone may have been pretty much the same as Antrim. I have included some 
other observations on Scottish influence in Ireland, for entertainment.   



 
   
   - A Presbyterian Minister brought up in Aghadowey, Co Derry wrote this of 
his childhood in the 1820s: “Aghadowey had originally been settled by a Scotch 
immigration and I found that my new neighbours spoke as pure Scotch as a man 
might hear in any part of Ayrshire.”[1]   



 
   
   - Describing his youth in Ballycahan, parish of Dunboe, again not too far 
from Drumachose a local farmer said: “Over a space of 15 to 20 miles from east 
to west, and about the same from north to south, Scottish surnames, a broad 
Scottish dialect and an almost universally diffused Presbyterianism indicated 
the title of the people to call themselves “Scotch”. Episcopalians were few and 
a Roman Catholic as rare as a black swan.”[2]   



 
   
   - Here’s what another source says about Scottish influence in Ireland:



 
“What has been thecontribution of Scottish immigrants to Ireland? Like other 
peoples, the UlsterScots have a somewhat self-admiring historical myth about 
their contribution toIrish life. There were echoes of it in the words I have 
quoted from J. J. Shawbut it was enunciated resonantly by the Reverend Henry 
Cooke, one of its mosteloquent exponents, addressing the General Assembly of 
the Church of Scotlandin 1836:


 
“ Our Scottishforefathers were planted in the most barren portions of our lands 
- the mostrude and lawless of the provinces - Scottish industry has drained its 
bogs andcultivated its barren wastes; substituted towns and cities for its 
hovels andclachans and given peace and good order to a land of confusion and 
blood.” 


 
   
   - Like most such myths it contains elements of truth, as does the 
alternative Irish nationalist myth which portrays the Scots as greedy robbers 
of the best Irish land. Scots immigrants have stamped their personality upon 
much of Ulster and have penetrated to all parts of Ireland. Scottish influence 
is still audible in some Ulster dialects and a vocabulary loaded with words 
like 'skunner', 'gunk', 'sleekit' and 'girn'. Scottish industry has brought 
prosperity to parts of Ulster but not to its bogs and barren wastes. The Scots 
did not introduce any revolutionary agricultural methods or implements though 
their two-eared Scotch spade gave the Irish the expression 'digging with the 
wrong foot'. Later came Scotch carts, ploughs and threshing machines. When the 
north-east of Ireland was relatively prosperous there were those who attributed 
that prosperity, and the success of the industries which provided it, to the 
Calvinism and special talents of the descendants of Scots settlers. Less is 
heard of such ideas in a period of economic decline. Geography and the 
emergence of entrepreneurs of genius like Harland and Wolff neither of them 
Ulster Scots - had more to do with nineteenth-century industrial success than 
religion or race. Yet, as a modern Scottish historian has observed, 'it is 
impossible not to suspect that Calvinist seriousness of purpose had some effect 
on both intellectual and economic life'.   



 
   
   - As well as good farmers and businessmen the Ulster Scots have produced 
good doctors, teachers, preachers and engineers. If they have produced little 
great literature, their eighteenth-century vernacular poets can stand 
comparison with Burns himself. Perhaps inevitably, their best writers and 
scholars, like Helen Waddell and Lord Kelvin, have found fame outside Ireland. 
Their good grammar schools and Belfast's university, which, in its early days, 
owed much to Scottish models, reflect their respect for education. They have 
built neat, functional homes but few fine buildings, though John Wesley 
described the meeting-house of Belfast's First Presbyterian congregation as 
'the completest place of public worship I have ever seen'.   



 
   
   - Commonly caricatured as a gloomy and silent bigot, the Ulster Scot is 
recognised by those who know him well as a loyal friend with a mordant sense of 
humour, critical of human pretensions and self-importance. He has not, as Henry 
Cooke claimed, 'brought peace and good order to a land of confusion and blood'; 
instead he has contributed his share to disharmony and conflict in Ireland, if 
only because he cannot compromise what he believes to be sacred principle, 
which others may see as self-interest. It may be significant that when, earlier 
this century, he sought a symbol with which to focus and express his opposition 
to Irish Home Rule, he found it in the great Scottish Covenants of the 
seventeenth 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] getting a researcher

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Family Tree DNA reportedly has more peoplewith Ulster roots than any other 
company. That obviously increases the chancesof finding a match. If you have 
already tested,you can transfer your results to them for no fee.


 
The North of Ireland Family History Societyis running an Ulster DNA project and 
can offer FTDNA testing kits at a reducedprice.  http://www.nifhs.org(Go to DNA 
project on the website).


Elwyn

  From: margaret marion via CoTyroneList 
 To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
Cc: margaret marion 
 Sent: Friday, 7 December 2018, 13:22
 Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] getting a researcher
   
I want to thank everyone for their comments on my request to get a researcher.  
I think I will spend my money on something better.  I think this calls for a 
trip to Ireland with some Ancestry DNA kits.  I don't know that much about DNA 
research.  But I do know how I can export from Ancestry very easily and put it 
on gedmatch.  From there I can figure out our relationship to a certain extent. 
 And I will still keep looking for that hint.Sometimes I wonder if my relatives 
really did steal a British army pay chest and come to Canada.  When I look at 
my Armstrong's, the information keeps changing.  I wonder if they changed their 
last name coming to Canada.I don't think so, but the Canadian evidence keeps 
changing, on one census they say they came in 1862, then the next 1865 and yet 
there they are in the 1861 census.Sorry to gripe. Now that I have read your 
comments I am more confident in my research as well.  Thank you.Margaret 
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Margaret,

 I echo what Boyd has said. 

 Armstrong is a very common name in Ireland.In the 1901 census there are 6122. 
545 in Co Tyrone, 6 named Samuel and41 named William. The names would have been 
even more common in the mid 1800s asthe population was considerably greater 
then. (It was 8 million in 1841 and it’sonly 6 million today).

 There’s 42 parishes in the county, and probably250 – 300 churches. Not all the 
churches have records back to the mid 1800s letalone 1811 when William was 
born, and of those that do, many are not on-line.Only the RC records are fairly 
comprehensively on-line. For all other denominationsit’s very patchy. A lot 
have been copied and are in PRONI, but there are somesmall churches where the 
Minister still has the only copy of the records.No-one has copied them at all, 
and the only way of checking them is to contacthim/her. Searching all the 
various church records for Tyrone is a mammoth task.Researchers need to be able 
to reduce the search by knowing the exact denomination(s)of the families they 
are looking at. And we need some reasonably reliableinformation on where they 
might have lived to keep the research withinreasonable bounds. Searching the 
church records for the whole county forArmstrong would be a huge task. But even 
then, there’s no getting away from thefact that the Church of Ireland lost a 
significant portion of its records inthe 1922 fire, and that other 
denominations didn’t always keep records, or ifthey did, they have been lost or 
damaged. So no certainty of success at all.

 It’s worth bearing in mind that noteveryone is listed in Griffiths. Servants, 
people lodging with others and folkwith very low value properties were all 
excluded. Labourers who moved aroundregularly to follow available work often 
slipped through the Griffiths clerks net.There are other examples. Also it was 
compiled for Tyrone around 1860, so if afamily had left by that year, they 
won't be in it.

 With your Samuel and William, I wouldsearch all possible records in Canada, or 
wherever else they ended up. Marriageand death certificates sometimes give 
places of birth, as well as parentsnames. Military records, obituaries, wills 
etc can all throw up informationabout someone’s origins.  Because it’ssuch a 
common name, to trace William Armstrong born c1852, we’d need hismother’s full 
name, to be sure of finding the right family. Presumably you knowthat, though 
it isn’t in your post. 

 The researcher’s expertise is obviouslyimportant but equally we can’t magic up 
records that don’t exist anymore, and themore accurate your information and the 
narrower the search area, the better thechances of success.

  Elwyn


  From: Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList 
 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
Cc: Boyd Gray 
 Sent: Monday, 3 December 2018, 22:31
 Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Using a researcher
   
Hi Margaret,
I am a "researcher" currently working on a project very similar to the one you 
describe.  And after weeks of research, I have not found that magical "smoking 
gun" which you seem to desire.  Thankfully, I am not being expected to do so 
and I made that clear at the start when I offered to help.  It is as simple as 
this.  If the records do not exist, no amount of research, by anyone other than 
a magic fairy, is ever going to find that definitive link for which you seek.  
In the end, it will all come down to probabilities.  If you have researched 
every birth, marriage and death, every land record from the Tithe Applotment 
Books, through the Griffiths Valuation AND beyond through the Griffiths 
Valuation Revision Books, through their overlap with the censuses and right 
through to their end circa 1930, then you will have sufficient sense of the 
family in that area to know whether they are your folks, to withing 80% or 90% 
degree of certainty.  But you can not expect even a professional researcher to 
magic up a record which does not exist.
Just like you, we found a Christopher Irwin, but not the Christopher Irwin who 
emigrated to Ontario in 1850 because this Christopher Irwin was still in Co 
Tyrone when he died in 1906.  But, we have done enough work on this branch of 
the Irwins, compared to other Irwins from County Tyrone, which was the only 
clue given by Canadian records, to be reasonably sure we have the right Irwins. 
 But no smoking gun.  No family bible.  No record from a list of sources which 
simply does not exist.  No researcher with a magic wand.  If you need to know 
what sources are actually available, have a look here at the helpful hints, 
workshop videos, sources and links:https://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/

That is the reality.
Keep researching, do not give up, but do not look for the impossible 
though, who knows you may strike lucky and find that mythicak family bible.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Boyd
https://www.westulstergenealogy.com/

https://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Samuel Cavin Born Abt. 1701 Templereagh, Donaghenry Parish, Co., Tyrone Northern Ireland

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Tina,


 
If Samuel served as a Minister in Ireland, thePresbyterian Church Historical 
Society in Belfast should have some brief details ofhis career and background:


 
http://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com


 
It wasn’t possible for prospective PresbyterianMinisters to get a degree in 
theology in Ireland at that time, and so if hewent to university, it’s likely 
to have been in Scotland (Glasgow, Edinburgh,St Andrew’s or Aberdeen). Those 
universities can sometimes confirm when someonematriculated and give you a 
little about their origins.


 

 
Elwyn


 

 


  From: Tina via CoTyroneList 
 To: "cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com"  
Cc: Tina 
 Sent: Monday, 7 January 2019, 11:19
 Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Samuel Cavin Born Abt. 1701 Templereagh, 
Donaghenry Parish, Co., Tyrone Northern Ireland
   
I am searching 
for records of my 6th Great Grandfather, Rev Samuel Cavin.   He was a 
Presbyterian minister who came to America in 1737.   He died 1750 and is buried 
in the churchyard of the church he ministered.   Silver Spring Presbyterian 
Church in Pennsylvania.I am looking for his family in Ireland.Any help would be 
greatly appreciated.Tina SwyersIndependence, Kansas 67301  Sent from Mail for 
Windows 10  ___
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Archbishopric of Armagh Estate: Tenants of the Lease of John Speir & Robt. Speir, Gent: 1703 Parishes of Donaghenry & Ballyclog, Co. Tyron

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Patricia,
Joseph left a will. Here’s his probateabstract. (The will itself is in PRONI in 
Belfast) in paper format. If you goin person you can view it free, or if not, 
PRONI will copy it for you (for afee).


 
Hadden Joseph Alexander of Lough Park Ballygawley county Tyronefarmer died 17 
March 1930 Probate Londonderry 6 October to reverend RichardPark presbyterian 
minister. Effects £718 13s. 5d.


 
Joseph was 55 when he died. You can view a copy of the deathcertificate on the 
GRONI site, for £2.50.


 
Joseph signed the Ulster Covenant in September 1912, which tellsyou his views 
on Home Rule. You can see his signature on the PRONI website.(His address there 
was Lough View). 


 
Search the Ulster Covenant | nidirect


  
|  
|   |  
Search the Ulster Covenant | nidirect
 Search and view digitised images of the original signatures of almost half a 
million men and women who signed th...  |  |

  |

 

Elwyn

  From: Pat Gunter via CoTyroneList 
 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
Cc: Pat Gunter 
 Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2019, 14:53
 Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - 
Archbishopric of Armagh Estate: Tenants of the Lease of John Speir & Robt. 
Speir, Gent: 1703 Parishes of Donaghenry & Ballyclog, Co. Tyrone
   
I am new to the website and this list, and would very much like any information 
that anyone might have on the Hadden family.  They lived at Lough Park, and 
attended Ballygawley Presbyterian Church.  I am specifically interested in 
Joseph and Jane Beatty Hadden, who are buried in that church's cemetery.  There 
son, Alexander Anderson Hadden is my great-grandfather. I plan to visit there 
in May.  Thank you in advance for your help.Patricia Hadden GunterChapel Hill, 
North Carolina, USA
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:21 AM Jim McKane via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:

Archbishopric of Armagh Estate:Tenants of the Lease of John Speir & Robt. 
Speir, Gent: 1703Parishes of Donaghenry & Ballyclog, Co. Tyrone
Thanks again Evelyn Cardwell for another massive work and to Len Swindley for 
formatting another great addition to CTI!


Jim McKane
South Bruce Peninsula, Ontario
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Need Geography help

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Ron,


 
As far as I am aware there’s no townlandnamed Armagh in Co. Tyrone and no 
Tyrone in Co. Armagh. However as you havespotted, some parishes cross the 
county borders and are in both, and the whole Armaghdiocese covers both 
counties. Someone born or married in Co. Tyrone couldappear in some church 
records which have an overall title of Diocese of Armagh.I think this can cause 
confusion if you don’t fully understand what the sets ofrecords include.


 
You can see the boundaries of the Church ofIreland diocese of Armagh on this 
link:


 
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/find-a-church


 
As far as Mary Gadys is concerned she didn’tput Armagh down on her death 
certificate as her place of birth. She was dead.The informant put that down and 
it could just be wrong. Burial and deathcertificates contain many mistakes over 
ages, names etc. Informants seemed tobe reluctant to put “not known” and 
guessed instead. Or simply had wronginformation.


 

 
Elwyn



  From: Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList 
 To: "cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com"  
Cc: Ron McCoy 
 Sent: Monday, 25 February 2019, 13:17
 Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Need Geography help
   
Hi All

I have a relative Mary Gadys(Gaddis) who is from Tyrone and on the death 
certificate she lists Armagh as her place of birth. I see a number of 
individuals around 1810 time period also listing county Tyrone, Armagh 
as their birth place. I am struggling to find a geographic place named 
Armagh in Tyrone that would match. I find the dioceses of Armagh in the 
Parish of Aghaloo in the south of Tyrone. I suspect this is the area in 
question. When I Google Tyrone, Armagh I get conflicting information and 
am usually directed back to County Armagh. Can someone help me to 
understand and define the Tyrone Armagh mentioned on these documents?

Thanks for your help

Cheers

Ron McCoy

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Fwd: Meehan family information

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

You won’t get a birth certificate forMichael Meehan because his birth was long 
before the start of statutory birthcertificates in Ireland (1864). Prior to 
1864 we generally rely on churchrecords but in this case if he was born near 
Carrickmore (Termonmaguirk parish)in 1831, their baptisms don’t start till 
1834, so there won’t be a baptismrecord to find. So you probably won’t find any 
documentary record of his birthor baptism.


 
Family in 1901 census:


 
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Athenree/Tremoge/1747785/


 
I see births for sons John on 26.5.1873,James on 8.6.1878 and daughter Alice on 
17.9.1867 (where mother’s maiden nameis recorded as Morrow). Mary Meenan’s 
death was registered in Omagh 8.7.1900aged 50.


 
You can view the above certificates free onthe irishgenealogy site  
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.iesave for John’s in 1873 which appears in 
the indexes but isn’t on the website.In that case you best bet is probably to 
view it on the GRONI website. They doappear to hold a copy there.


 
I searched for the 3rd son’sbirth but did not find it. Could it have been pre 
1864 Ie before statutoryregistration)? In which case you would need to rely on 
church records. TheCarrickmore parish records for 1834 to 1857 are on-line on 
the nli site but therecords for 1858 onwards are not. So if the marriage and 
the birth of the firstson fell in the period 1858 to 1863, then the church has 
the only copy.


 
Note that in both the 1901 census and thevarious statutory records I have 
referred to, the surname is recorded as Meenannot Meehan.


 
Michael Meenan’s farm is listed inGriffiths Valuation for 1860. It was plot 18a 
in Griffiths and was a 29 acrefarm. That property today is near the junction of 
the Termon and Coolbrackroads, outside Pomeroy.


 
Griffith's Valuation


  
|  
|   |  
Griffith's Valuation
   |  |

  |

 


I notice Morris households in and around Tremoge so it's possible Michael 
married the girl next door.
 
I am sorry that the person responsible forthe church records was not as helpful 
as they might have been. Churches here doget a lot of genealogical requests 
and, in my personal experience, there havebeen several unfortunate incidents 
involving people defacing entries andripping pages out of registers for 
whatever reason. Since these are theoriginal records some custodians are 
understandably cautious about othershandling them.


 
It’s probably also worth trying to manageyour expectations here. I think some 
people expect churches to hold lots ofdetailed records on their congregations. 
They usually don’t. The birth andmarriage records are often all they have (for 
the 1800s anyway). Few RCchurches kept burial records, and there was rarely a 
written record forgraveyards of where people were buried. (The gravediggers and 
most of thepopulation were largely illiterate. Written records were no use to 
them). Theinformation on where families were buried was kept in people’s heads, 
butobviously was lost when they died or moved away.


 

 

 
Elwyn



  From: Carrie Mahan via CoTyroneList 
 To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
Cc: Carrie Mahan 
 Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2019, 1:42
 Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Fwd: Meehan family information
   

-- Forwarded message -
From: Carrie Mahan 
Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2019, 8:03 AM
Subject: Meehan family information
To: 


Seeking additional information on Michael Meehan and family.  Attended church 
at carrickmore, born 1831,  died 17 jan 1903. Visited church record keeper 
there,  who was less than forthcoming about giving out other records. Hope you 
will have other information.  These are the Meehans of tremoge. Michael was 
married to Margaret Morris and had 4 sons and a daughter.  Michael died in 
1903. Looking for original marriage records, birth certificates,  death 
certificates, and more information about Margaret morris. I only have 
information from Ancestry. Anything else would be appreciated. Thanks. Carrie 
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Armstrongs from Gortin and Beltrim

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

If you are interested in background readingon the Armstrongs, and other border 
reiver families, such as Nixon, Elliot,Bell, Graham, Henderson, Hogg and many 
other names now common in Fermanagh& Tyrone then a good read is: “The Border 
Reivers” by Godfrey Watson ISBN 07091 4478 4. Published 1974. 


 
It explains about their almost completelylawless lives in the  1400s, 1500s 
andearly 1600s and how, as a result, many ended up in Fermanagh and 
adjacentcounties. Bloodthirsty stuff, with plenty of feuds, treachery, 
executions andcattle stealing.



  From: Michael Richey via CoTyroneList 
 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List  
Cc: Michael Richey 
 Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2019, 16:46
 Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Armstrongs from Gortin and Beltrim
   
Hi Maureen:My wife and I went to Fermanagh County, N. Ireland Spring of 2018.  
We found many of her ancestors in the Maguires Bridge area.Enlisted the help of 
a local genealogist who got us pointed in the right direction.Visited a local 
cemetery and found LARGE headstones laying flat on the ground and they had 
church records and we visited the farm site where her Armstrongs had actually 
lived.Also went to PRONI in belfast.Found out that her Armstrongs were border 
raiders. Some also emigrated to Canada. One of the headstones had actually 
recorded that information.
Mike Richey-ps. My "Richey's" (Ritchies) are from Tyrone County, haven't found 
out from where exactly.mrichey56...@gmail.com
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 4:15 PM Maureen Baker via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:

I have Armstrong ancestors who lived in Gortin and Beltrim, Tyrone County and 
some are buried in St. Patricks Church of Ireland (Lower Bodaney).   I’m 
planning a trip to Ireland, which I’m very excited about and plan on visiting 
Gortin (visit St. Patricks Church of Ireland, walk along Main Street, Gortin 
Glen Park, locate the property of my grandmother Fanny Armstrong (1874-1868) 
her parents and her grandparent’s property. She emigrated to Canada in the late 
1800s.   My cousin visited Gortin in the 70s and found a distant cousin living 
in Gortin (Pentland) and said there were ruins of the property in Beltrim.  
I’ve identified the property on Griffiths Valuations which is close to Gortin 
Glen Lakes Fanny’s parents:   Samuel Armstrong  1839-1891; and Mary Robinson 
1847-? Fanny’s grandparents: Thomas Armstrong 1787-1877 and Elizabeth McNickle 
1797-1867 (buried in St. Patrick’s) Fanny’s great grandfather Lancelot 
Armstrong 1754-1829. Looking for additional information also someone who might 
be related to the Armstrong clan. MaureenCaledon, Ontario, Canada   
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-- 
Michael Richey12200 46th St. Perry, KS 
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Alexander Ferguson

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Carmen,

Statutory birth registration only started in Ireland in 1864, so you
won’t find a birth certificate for Alexander or Matilda. Prior to that
year you need to rely on church baptism records, where they exist.
Likewise for marriages, statutory marriage registration only started
in 1845 (for non RC marriages) and 1864 for RC.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church (after which she’d
usually attend her husband’s).  That they were buried in Coagh
Presbyterian is a hint that it was possibly Alexander’s family church.
And it might have been Matilda’s family church too.

If so, the news is not great. That church has no baptism records
earlier than 1839. It has marriages for 1820-1822 and then none till
1845.  If that is the church where they were baptised and married then
there don’t appear to be any surviving records.

Did the couple have any children, and if so do you know where they
were baptised?


Elwyn


On 09/04/2019, W A Carmen Ferguson via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> My Great Grandfather Alexander Ferguson was born 1811 in Ballymoyle, Coagh,
> Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland and died the same place on June 13, 1887. I
> don’t know his month or day of birth.  He married Matilda someone (I
> believe Duff); she was born about 1808 but I don’t know where and died
> September 19, 1882. I also don’t know when they were married. They are both
> buried in Coagh Presbyterian Burying ground.
>
>
>
> Any help much appreciated
>
>
>
> Carmen Ferguson Ottawa, Canada
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Question about Family Court Records, County of Tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Rosie,

Most court papers are deposited with PRONI in Belfast. So that is your
first port of call.  Northern Ireland has only had formal adoption law
since 1927 so though you haven’t given a date, the adoption must have
been since then. Adoption papers for Co. Tyrone are held in PRONI
under the series reference TYR/2. They start in 1931 but are closed to
the general public (for personal privacy reasons).

You can make a Freedom of Information request to access a particular
file, and if PRONI are able to approve that, then you may get to see
the records or possibly certain redacted parts.

To make an FOI request, you simply e-mail PRONI with the details. I
imagine they will want proof of your connection to the adopted person,
and there may be other rules.

There is a further obstacle at the moment which is that because the NI
Assembly isn’t functioning, PRONI have decided that they don't have
the necessary statutory authority to approve some FOI requests. That’s
being challenged in the courts by a Judicial Review but in the
meantime a lot of FOI requests are on hold.



Elwyn


On 27/05/2019, Rosie Evans via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
>>> Hello
>
>>> I am searching for court documents regarding the step parent adoption of
>>> my grandmother. The County Court, County of Tyrone, Division of Dungannon
>>> is where the adoption order was granted.
>>>
>>> Could you tell me if the court still exists and how I contact them
>>> please?
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>
>>> Rosie Evans
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Searching for ADAMS descendants

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

DM,

It isn’t quite clear what you are hoping to achieve on your visit but
if it is to view the Church of Ireland records, then the principal
church in Cappagh parish has baptism, marriage and burial records from
1753 onwards. The originals appear to be still held by the parish and
there is a copy in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast.  If
you want to view the originals you would need to make an appointment
and the Church usually charges a fee for viewing them. (It was £12 an
hour. I don’t know whether that is still the current rate. The parish
office will tell you). On the other hand you can view a copy of the
same records in PRONI without an appointment and without having to
pay.

There are 3 other Church of Ireland Churches in the parish – Edenderry
with records from 1841; Lislimnaghan with records from 1862 and
Mountfield with records from 1877. Copies of all those records are
also in PRONI.

If you want to know what graveyards are in the area, then there’s
fairly comprehensive list on the UHF site. It lists 7 in the parish:

https://www.ancestryireland.com/family-records/graveyards-in-ulster/

You don’t say what your ancestors occupations were. If they were
farmers or reasonably off they may have gravestones but if they were
weavers and labourers, then they probably couldn’t afford a
gravestone. The Church of Ireland does keep burial records (though not
every burial is in those records) but they may be worth searching.


Elwyn


On 30/05/2019, Darlene Mulligan via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I am seeking information about my ADAMS descendants.   I know they lived in
> OMAGH, County Tyrone, and I believe they would have belonged to the Cappagh
> Parish Church of Ireland.
>
> I will be in both Ireland and Northern Ireland, but only have one day that I
> will be near County Tyrone - June 25.
>
> Any ideas or thoughts would be most welcome, with sincere thanks.
>
>
> DM
>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneList Digest, Vol 394, Issue 1

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Charlotte:

According to the John Grenham site the name Hamilton is:

“Very numerous: throughout Ulster, extending into Leinster and
Connacht. An important Scottish name which came in the Plantation of
Ulster, 17 cent. The town of Manorhamilton in Leitrim is indicative of
their extensive holdings. The name sometimes stands for Hamill, q.v.
The gaelicised version is Hamaltún. SI & IF”.

https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Hamilton

Looking at the 1901 census for Tyrone there were 1101 people of that
surname, so very common.

Using Hamilton (or any other surname) as a middle name was/is a common
Presbyterian custom. It could often be the mother’s maiden name but
not always. Sometimes it was someone the family respected, eg the
local Teacher or Minister.

Elwyn


On 29/05/2019, Charlotte gorley via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> In researching the Weir family of the Parish of Derryloran, I've found
> several Hamiltons and wonder how they are connected.  Some of the Weirs
> have
> even included Hamilton in the names of their children.  Were the Hamiltons
> an important family there?
> Charlotte
>
> -Original Message-
> From: CoTyroneList  On Behalf Of
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> To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com
> Subject: CoTyroneList Digest, Vol 394, Issue 1
>
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>
>1. Re: Henry Hamilton (Peggy Gordon)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 20:03:49 + (UTC)
> From: Peggy Gordon 
> To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List"
>   , Jim McKane 
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Henry Hamilton
> Message-ID: <1357755857.274935.1559073829...@mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> I have now found Henry's death record in Trumbull Co., and his age of death
> backdates to Sept 20, 1829 whereas his biography says July 29, 1829. At
> least, they agree on the year.?Peggy
> On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 2:26:46 a.m. PDT, Jim McKane 
> wrote:
>
>  A search of our Every Name Index shows MANY Henry Hamilton's with a number
> of Baptism records. Have you checked all of them?
> Regards
> Jim McKane
> South Bruce Peninsula, Ontario
>
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:04 PM Peggy Gordon via CoTyroneList
>  wrote:
>
> According to a biography of Henry Hamilton, he was born in Drumards
> (thinking Drumads)Co. Tyrone, Ireland on July 29, 1829. He emigrated to?
> USA
> and there he belonged to the Disciple Church so no idea what he was in
> Ireland. Can anyone suggest where I might look for his baptism? I have been
> looking for many years.Henry's first son was Frederick J. but no idea if he
> was following the naming pattern. Second son was Walter King
> Hamilton.thanks
> for any helpPeggy Gordon___
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] ADAMS from Omagh, County Tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

 accommodation arrangements, often staying in
lodging houses and with poor folk in their cabins.  She found clean
cabins and filthy ones, and some cabins with the family pig and other
animals sharing the accommodation. The poverty shocked her. And when
she took a coach somewhere, upwards of 200 beggars would surround it
hoping for a halfpenny or two. Moving stuff.

To give a sense of what she covers, she travelled across the country
by canal barge, visited a prison, a workhouse; she was astonished to
find that folk in Ireland drank as she had somehow been under the
impression that Ireland was tee-total! She described finding a woman
sleeping in bed with the family pig, she commented on the fitness and
strength of the people. For example, when staying with a family, a
teenage girl was despatched to borrow a wooden bed for her, which she
carried on her back into the house without any effort at all. There’s
a moving description of a young girl saying farewell to her friends
and family as she set off to America. (Lots of howling). She noted
that no matter how poor a family was, barefoot and wearing rags, there
was always money for tobacco. Though many landlords treated their
tenants scandalously there were others who treated them very well and
whose tenants praised them. (A third of all Irish landlords then were
native Irish, and so some of the exploitation was being done by native
Irish to their own countrymen. Not all the bad landlords were English
and not all the good ones were Irish). She mentions the music of the
time. She explains that the harp had fallen out of favour at that
period and folk preferred pipes and the flute. She noted folk planting
potatoes and they had a musician present to play to them whilst they
worked. Just as we might have an I-pod playing today whilst we work.
And so on.

The one disappointment for folk with ancestors from Tyrone is that
though she visited the county, her impressions are not included. It
appears from the foreword that she may have intended producing a
second volume covering her time in Ulster but sadly that never
materialized. So this concentrates on her time in what is today the
Republic of Ireland. However it’s an excellent read, and a good
primary source of information on life in Ireland in the mid 1840s.


Elwyn


On 22/06/2019, Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Hi Elwyn
>
> Thank you for the wealth of information these are the images of Irish
> life I wanted to know. John McKee as you have heard me say was living in
> Cavanakeeran when the Applotment records find him but later in Canada in
> 1841-2 census. Moving his family in 1838. He appears to be well
> established in Tyrone on the outskirts of a new town called Pomeroy. In
> the Canadian Census he is referring to himself as a farmer he is around
> 70 years old when he and I believe many  people from his Presbyterian
> congregation pack up and move to Canada. The information you highlight
> for me deepens and broadens the picture of what their life was like. Can
> you think of any way this added information would help find our more
> about John McKee, Rev. David Evans or the settlers who set out from
> Cavanakeeran for Canada? Thank you for this great letter and all the
> details, a wonderful breadth of knowledge goes into this.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ron McCoy
>
> On 2019-06-21 11:23 a.m., elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
>> Ron,
>>
>> Ireland has always been a largely agricultural county. Land was the
>> biggest source of employment in the 1830s and it still is today. The
>> country has almost no natural resources eg coal, iron ore, valuable
>> minerals, oil etc and save for linen mills and ship building in
>> Belfast, the industrial revolution largely passed it by. And that was
>> one of the many factors that led to mass emigration from Ireland in
>> the 1800s. There had been a population explosion (up from 3 million in
>> 1741 to 8 million in 1841) and there were no jobs for most of those
>> people. And that’s before we consider the impact of the famine,
>> insecure tenure and lack of spare land. So whilst farming may be a
>> lowly occupation elsewhere, it was up near the top of the chain in
>> Ireland.  Of course the size of the farm mattered too. There were a
>> lot of subsistence level cottiers and small farmers, with a few acres,
>> but there were some quite wealthy farmers too. If you go to the Ulster
>> American Folk Park near Omagh you can see various categories of farm.
>> The Campbell Household’s farm (originally near Plumbridge but now in
>> the Park) was a very wealthy farm, and they had hundreds of acres:
>>
>> https://www.nmni.com/our-museums/ulster-american-folk-park/Things-to-see/Campbell-House.aspx
>>
>> Then you had smaller ones like the Mellon farm (of the Mellon Bank
>> family). They 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] ADAMS from Omagh, County Tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Darlene,

You can use the Griffiths Valuation site to see where the surname
Adams was found in Co Tyrone in 1860. There are 144 listed, right
across the county. There were 223 Adams in the county in the 1901
census.

But the problem you really face is that hardly any parishes in Tyrone
have any records for the mid 1700s and so even if you knew exactly
where Thomas was born, there probably isn’t a documentary record of
it.

With regard to burials, it very much depends on what their trade was
and again what denomination. Only the Church of Ireland routinely kept
burial records, so if your ancestors were another denomination it’s
unlikely that there will be any church records of their burials
(assuming records exist in the first place). Only wealthier folk such
as farmers and merchants could afford a gravestone, and the vast
majority of people were buried without one. So it’s important to try
and establish what their occupation was to assess the likelihood of
there being a gravestone to find.


Elwyn


On 21/06/2019, Darlene Mulligan via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Greetings everyone -
>
> I am trying to find the church or parish area that my ancestors would have
> lived in.  Countless searches have not resulted in a confirmed location
> where ancestors may have been buried.
>
> Thomas Adams (1749-1816) was not likely born in Omagh, but his children were
> born there.  One of his children was:
>
> William J. Adams (1769-1825) and his wife Sarah (1785-1825) were from Omagh.
>  They left Omagh with their children in 1825 - sailing out of Londonderry to
> emigrate to Canada.   Both died and were buried at sea, leaving their
> children to arrive and settle in Canada.
>
>
> The next generations (direct line) are:
> - Robert Adams (1806-1866)  settled in Prince Edward County, Ontario,
> Canada
> -David B. Adams  (1847-1922)
> -Clarence Adams (1887-1966)
> -Elwood Adams  (1918-1997)
> -Clarence Adams II  (1939 -)   My dad
>
>
> Any help will be VERY much appreciated!   I wonder if any of the latest
> generations of Adams might still be in the area?   I have not found any
> records of siblings to William that indicate they also left Omagh.  I do
> know they did not leave on the same ship as William and Sarah.
>
>
>
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] ADAMS from Omagh, County Tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

 don’t know if this is what you wanted to know. Let me know if you
have any other questions.



Elwyn


On 21/06/2019, Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> HI Elwyn
>
> In your response you say ," Only wealthier folk such
>
> as farmers and merchants could afford a gravestone." In our modern world
> Farmers are not considered wealthy people in North America they are down the
> cast system pretty far. Some of my family records in Tyrone or upon coming
> to Canada they list themselves as being Farmers as opposed to Labourers or
> servants or renters etc..like most of the other settlers here. Does them
> listing themselves as Farmers mean something more then we take from it
> today? Does it mean money or position in the 1830"s? Can you elaborate on
> that for me if it does what would that entail for them and their families?
> Cheers
> Ron McCoy
>
> On 2019-06-21 8:33 a.m., elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
>> Darlene,
>>
>> You can use the Griffiths Valuation site to see where the surname
>> Adams was found in Co Tyrone in 1860. There are 144 listed, right
>> across the county. There were 223 Adams in the county in the 1901
>> census.
>>
>> But the problem you really face is that hardly any parishes in Tyrone
>> have any records for the mid 1700s and so even if you knew exactly
>> where Thomas was born, there probably isn’t a documentary record of
>> it.
>>
>> With regard to burials, it very much depends on what their trade was
>> and again what denomination. Only the Church of Ireland routinely kept
>> burial records, so if your ancestors were another denomination it’s
>> unlikely that there will be any church records of their burials
>> (assuming records exist in the first place). Only wealthier folk such
>> as farmers and merchants could afford a gravestone, and the vast
>> majority of people were buried without one. So it’s important to try
>> and establish what their occupation was to assess the likelihood of
>> there being a gravestone to find.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Lily Devlin Mor

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Tomas,

The RC church records for Arboe list 4 children to Patrick Devlin &
Rose Mallon (there may have been more but they don’t show up on
Ancestry):

Felix bapt 3.2.1851
Joseph baptised 2.4.1854
John 13.3.1857
Bridget 15.1.1865

I can also find a statutory birth certificate for Bridget which shows
that her father was a farmer in Ardean, which is a townland on the
shores of Lough Neagh. It’s near the Battery Pub which is right on the
loughshore.

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

Patrick Devlin died in Ardean on 11.1.1888. His son Felix was the
informant. Rose was still alive at that date. I have not been able to
identify her death with certainty. (There’s a possible death on
21.12.1888 in Cookstown workhouse, for a woman who normally resided in
Coagh, aged 74, but I can’t be sure it’s the correct lady as it’s such
a common name and I would have expected the address to be Ardean
rather than Coagh).

This looks to be Felix (born 1851) and family in the 1901 census.
Felix had married Eliza O’Neill on 4.2.1892:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Munterevlin/Ardean/1727713/

1911 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Munterevlin/Ardean/857422/

This will be a difficult family to research as Devlin is an extremely
common surname in the area. In the 1901 census of Ardean (which is
just 143 acres in size) there were 17 households. 8 of them were
Devlin families, many of whom used the same forenames. Many of them
will likely be related. It will be hard work sorting them all out.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Munterevlin/Ardean/

Good luck,


Elwyn


On 23/06/2019, Tomás Devlin via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Dear Jim and friends at CoTyroneMailingList
>
> These are my ancestors:
>
> My GGGparents: (b. circa 1820) Patrick Devlin (Ireland) and Rose Mallon
> (Ireland). They had 8 or 9 children
> My GGparents: (b. circa 1855) Joseph Devlin (Ardboe, Ireland
> then USA) and Ellen Ryan. They had 6 or 7 children
> My Gparents: (b 1895) Charles Stephen Atwood
> Devlin (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA – then Buenos Aires, Argentina) and
> (b. 1892) Lía Ophelia Obligado (Buenos Aires, Argentina). They had 2
> children
> My parents: (b. 1929) Carlos
> Esteban Devlin (Buenos Aires, Argentina) and (b. 1922) María Letizia
> Mercedes Sala Semino (Rosario, Santa Fe, argentina)
>
> I’ve found some information at your site, many of them referenced by Lily
> Devlin Mor
> Thanks!
>
> PS: Sorry about my English, my native language is Spanish
>
> Tomás J. Devlin
> Buenos Aires, Argentina
>
> De: Jim McKane 
> Enviado el: martes, 18 de junio de 2019 15:11
> Para: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
> CC: Tomás Devlin 
> Asunto: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Lily Devlin Mor
>
> BUT you must know something more than a name???  Approx age, locations,
> siblings, children, parents??
>
> Jim McKane
> South Bruce Peninsula, Ontario
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 1:18 PM Tomás Devlin via CoTyroneList
> mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>>
> wrote:
> Hi Madadh!
> No, I have more information on my Devlins, mainly from USA, but noticed that
> Lily posted some data from my Branch. That’s why I’m trying to contact her.
> Thanks
>
> Enviado desde
> Correo
> para Windows 10
>
> 
> De: CoTyroneList
> mailto:cotyronelist-boun...@cotyroneireland.com>>
> en nombre de Liam Ó Cuinn via CoTyroneList
> mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>>
> Enviado: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 1:40:33 PM
> Para: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List
> Cc: Liam Ó Cuinn
> Asunto: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Lily Devlin Mor
>
> Is that all the info you have?
>
> Madadh Mór
>
> On 18 Meith 2019, at 16:12, Tomás Devlin via CoTyroneList
> mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>>
> wrote:
> Hello there!
>
> I’m looking for Lily Devlin Mor
> My GGFather was Joseph Devlin Mor
>
> Thanks
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Rose Devlin death

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Yes that’s the right death. It’s indexed on irishgenealogy under Rosev
(presumably a mistake for Rosey) and that explains why I couldn’t find
it.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/05996/4706065.pdf


On 24/06/2019, Peggy Gordon via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Would this be the death of Rose, widow of Patrick Devlin?
>
>
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Weirs in Ballysudden and Cookstown

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Griffiths Valuation lists Samuel Weir farming in Ballysudden. He had
plot 11 which was a farm of just under 11 acres. Easy enough to locate
today should you wish to do so. He remains tenant in the Valuation
revision records until 1888 when he is replaced by Andrew Barkley, who
I suspect may have been his son-in-law.

Samuel died at Ballysudden on 14.5.1890 and the informant was his
daughter Jane Barclay. The Barkley/Barclay family had left that
townland by 1899, and I don’t see them in the 1901 Irish census.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06108/4743673.pdf

Sarah Weir died 23.12.1886, again at Ballysudden. Her death is listed
in the Coleraine Chronicle for 1.1.1887.


Elwyn


On 04/05/2019, Charlotte gorley via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
>   Hello, Everyone,
>
>
>
> I am new to this list and still trying to navigate my way around it.
>
>
>
> I am hoping to learn about Samuel Weir and Sarah Harvey from the
> Balleysudden area.  We believe Samuel was born or baptized in 1807 and
> Sarah
> around 1812.  They were married July 13, 1837 in Ireland.
>
>
>
> We believe their offspring were:
>
> Samuel - born or baptized May 1837
>
> Mary Ann - born or baptized March 1839.
>
> Margaret - born or baptized July 1841 in Tamlaght by Moneymore, Londonderry
>
> James Hamilton - born or baptized September 1844.  Gives his birthplace as
> Ballysudden on his marriage record
>
> Jane Weir - born or baptized October 1846
>
> Elizabeth - born or baptized February 1848.  She married George William
> Lyons in Cookstown in 1873.  In 1873 she is recorded as living in
> Ballysudden.
>
> Sarah - born or baptized October 1850.
>
>
>
> If these names sound familiar to anybody I'd love to be in contact.
>
> Charlotte
>
>
>
> Charlotte's Web of Kindred Connections Blog
>
> https://cgorley.wordpress.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Plumbridge around 1815 - Derry or tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Plumbridge has been in Tyrone since at least the 1600s. There was a
change in the county borders in 1613 when part of Tyrone was moved
into Derry (the barony of Loughinsholin) but that didn’t affect
Plumbridge which remained in Tyrone. I think the information you have
is probably just a mistake.

On 04/07/2019, Mary Purchase via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Does anyone know if Plumbridge was in County Derry or County tyrone around
> 1815?   Someone has included a note on one of my ancestors (undocumented of
> course) that shows Andrew McFarland/MacFarlane was born in Plumbridge,
> Derry.  But when I look at current maps, it looks like the town is in County
> Tyrone now.
>
> Appreciate any help!
> Mary McFarland Purchase
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] County Derry Genealogical list

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Carmen,

There isn’t an equivalent site for Co Londonderry but I don’t mind
answering your query so far as I can.

If Killaig Presbyterian was the family church then its baptism records
start in 1805 and marriages in 1836. So if daughter Rachel was
baptised there c 1820 you may get her mother’s maiden name from that.
Those records don’t appear to be on-line anywhere but there is a copy
in PRONI in Belfast.

If Killaig is where the couple married, then clearly you won't get a
date for their marriage as the records don't exist. (They presumably
married some time between 1800 and 1820).  However tradition was to
marry in the bride’s church so it’s possible they married elsewhere.
If you find Mary’s maiden name you could search around but few
churches have records around 1800 and of those that do, not all are
on-line. So it may be hard going.

Likewise I doubt you’ll find any documents which give you either of
their dates of birth. It’s too far back.

In case you don’t have them, I found 2 probate abstracts for the Stuart family:

The Will of Ann Jane Stuart late of Ballynacally Beg County
Londonderry deceased who died 15 December 1875 at same place was
proved at Londonderry by the oaths of John Stuart of Clintagh
(Blackhill) and James Baird of Ballynacally (Blackhill) both in said
County Farmers the Executors.

The Will of John Stuart late of Clintagh County Londonderry Retired
Farmer who died 11 November 1891 at same place was proved at
Londonderry by the Reverend John Stuart LL.D. of Clifton Manse
Londonderry Presbyterian Minister one of the Executors.

Both the above wills are on the PRONI wills site and name numerous
relatives, and how some of them are related to each other.

Andrew Stewart in the 1831 census of Clintagh. 8 in his household, 5
males & 3 females, all Presbyterian:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Coleraine/Aghadowey/Clintagh/24/

Coleraine Chronicle of 18.2.1893 has an article about the will of the
late Rev Edward Stuart, late of Clintagh.  Retired Presbyterian
clergyman who left assets of £7,000. The defendants were the executors
who were his nephews, and the plaintiffs were his brothers and sisters
who wished to impeach the will on ordinary grounds and who also
alleged undue influence and fraud. Case was set down for trial on 25th
of that month.

If you are looking to trace the family back further it might be worth
checking the Registry of Deeds. The Stewart/Stuart farm was a
reasonable size (70 acres) and they may well have leases registered in
the Registry of Deeds which could give you some information in the
1700s.



Elwyn


On 05/07/2019, W A Carmen Ferguson via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Jim: Is there a comparable to County Tyrone list for County Derry? I want
> to post the following but can't find a County Derry list.
>
> Can you help? Thanks Carmen
>
> ***
>
> My Great Great Grandfather Andrew Stuart was born about 1779 in Clintagh
> House, Macosquin, Co. Derry, Northern Ireland and died February 28 1863
> aged 84 in Clintaugh House, Macosquin, Co. Derry, Northern Ireland (the
> spelling ‘Clintaugh’ was taken from his headstone in Killaig Presbyterian
> Burying Ground). He was married to Mary ?? who was born about 1779 and died
> March 16, 1861 aged 82. Andrew was Manager of bleachworks at Aghadowey and
> also had a farm at Clinta.
>
> I am interested in knowing:
>
> · When did they get married
>
> · What was Mary’s maiden name
>
> · What is their exact dates of birth
>
>
>
> Their daughter Rachel Stuart (December 20, 1820-May 17, 1908) married James
> Henry Snr (September 4, 1818-December 27, 1910) on June 1, 1837. Their son,
> Matthew Andrew Henry (June 29, 1858-December 27, 1910) married Sarah
> Tannahill (December 10, 1868-April 29, 1907) on June 2, 1892 in Killaig
> Presbyterian Church, Macosquin, Co. Derry, N.I.( Register # 2 -19). Matthew
> and Sarah had 9 children one of whom was my mother Martha Jane (Meta) Henry
> (May 14, 1903-August 10, 1955). My Grandfather Matthew Andrew Henry had a
> brother Edward Stuart Henry (Born April 17, 1854 – per Family Register).
> In August of 1873 he emigrated to the U.S.A. His father James Henry
> contacted the police in New York City but was unable to determine anything.
>
> I personally found a number of things relating to an Edward Henry who lived
> in Danbury Connecticut but I doubt if this is the correct person. They had
> nine children four of whom lived. One was called Theresa but I doubt that
> (my) Edward would have named his daughter Theresa as his father James was
> very religious and was an Elder in Killaig Church.
>
>
>
> Any help greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Carmen in Ottawa Canada
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Devine and McCormick families in County Tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Stan,

The townland where I think your Devine ancestors lived for many years
was Clogherny near Gortin, in Co. Tyrone. There’s a record of
Catherine’s birth there on 24th March 1889:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02485/1922146.pdf

Family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Stranagalwilly/Clogherny/1753117/

And in 1911. Note that they had had 7 children of whom 6 were still alive:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Stranagalwilly/Clogherny/849518/

Susan, Mary, Patrick, Annie, Ellen, Catherine and 1 other. The family
were all born in Co. Tyrone.

Charles Devine and Anna McCormick were married on 27.11.1884:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1884/10917/5988140.pdf

I think the townland where Charles was living then was Balix. (Balix
Lower to be accurate).

Looking for Charles death there were several in the Strabane
registration area eg 26.11.1923 aged 70; 28.3.1924 aged 74 & 21,1,1925
aged 77.  For Annie I also saw quite a few. 10.10.1922 aged 62;
3.12.1922 aged 68; 13.2.1838 aged 80; 9.3.1939 aged 81; 27.4.1940 aged
78 & 28.12.1940 aged 83.  You would need to pay to view them on the
GRONI website at £2.50 each to see if any is the right one.

You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website,
using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50
(sterling) to a view a certificate.



Elwyn


On 05/07/2019, Stan Laskowski via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Dear friends, I am interested in learning more about the ancestors of my
> grandmother, Catherine Devine who was born in Ireland in March 25, 1889 in
> Co Tyrone, came to the USA in the early 1900s, and died in Collingswood NJ
> in 1965. In the USA she married Michael [J?] Brett who was from County
> Sligo]
>
> Catherine's mother was Anna McCormick [maybe McCormack] and was born
> somewhere in Ireland [perhaps County Tyrone] in approximately 1861 and died
> in County Tyrone in approximately 1927.
>
> Catherine's father was Charles Devine, born in approximately 1851 [perhaps
> in County Tyrone] and died in County Tyrone in approximately 1923.
> My  grandmother Catherine lived with her mother, father, and siblings in
> Tullinaglug [Tullanaglug] near Tobercury.
>
> Any information on Anna McCormick [McCormack?], Charles Devine, or their
> ancestors would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
>
> Stan Laskowski
>
>
>
>
> Stanley L Laskowski
>
> Global Water Alliance [2006-present], Founder, www.globalwateralliance.net
>
> University of Pennsylvania; Master of Environmental Studies Program,
> Lecturer/Advisor [2001-2017; retired]
>
> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/earth/people/stanley-l-laskowski
>
> U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, [1972-2004; retired], Senior
> Executive
>
> stanlaskows...@gmail.com
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] John McDevitt and Family in County Tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

David,

The primary reason that the church in Ardstraw can’t help is probably
because they don’t have any records for that period. Ardstraw West RC
records start in 1846 and Ardstraw East in 1860. So they will have
nothing on someone born in the late 1700s. No easy way around that.

Regarding the spelling of names, the idea of a single or correct
spelling for a surname or a place name is very much a recent
phenomenon designed to meet the needs of modern officialdom. Before
that, especially in Ireland, there was no consistency. Names were
spelled phonetically and each variation was down to the whim of the
particular person recording the information. You will often see the
spelling change as the records go back. This rarely indicates a
deliberate decision to alter the name, nor even a mistake. Not
everyone was literate, but even when they were, exact spelling simply
wasn’t something they bothered about. In addition to varying the
actual spelling, O’ or Mac prefixes were optional and were often
omitted.

In Irish (gaelic) the spelling and prefixes vary depending firstly on
what case is used (eg genitive usually requires the insertion of an
extra “i”), and secondly with a woman’s name, it changed according to
her marital status. It is a further factor in explaining why no-one in
Ireland worried about the “correct” spelling. There wasn’t one.

I am sorry that the folk you contacted weren’t interested in assisting
you with your research. It’s probably fair to say that there wouldn’t
be quite the same interest in ancestry in many Irish families. In the
most general terms, most know where their ancestors came from, and so
it isn’t something that has the same fascination as is the case for
someone in North America or elsewhere. Unless there was a genealogist
in the family, most in Ireland would only be able to go back about 3
generations to the 1900s say. They wouldn’t know about relatives born
in the 1700s. So even if they were a bit more willing to help, they
probably couldn’t.

Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have
additional information about where the family originate. Family Tree
DNA reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other
company. That obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You
might want to try them or, if you have already tested, you can
transfer your results to them for no fee.

The North of Ireland Family History Society is running an Ulster DNA
project in conjunction with Family Tree DNA and can offer testing kits
at a reduced price.  http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the
website). You don’t need to be a member of the NIFHS to participate in
the DNA project.

Good luck,


Elwyn


On 26/06/2019, David Prater via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am looking for any information about John McDevitt, hisparents and
> siblings.
>
>
> Information from John’s U.S. citizenship documents showsthat he was born in
> Newtownstewart, County Tyrone on 11 OCT 1796.  He migrated to America from
> Londonderry in 1816,arriving in New York on 12 JUN 1816 and then moving on
> to Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.
>
>
> John’s sister, Mary and her husband, Alexander Gallagher,migrated to America
> in July 1820.  Theyall moved on to western Pennsylvania and lived out their
> lives in ButlerCounty, Pennsylvania.
>
>
> John married Susanne/Suzanne/Susannah Sterritt inPennsylvania on 11 JAN
> 1829.  Suzannewas also born in Ireland around 1808.  I think she was born in
> County Donegal.
>
>
> I contacted the Catholic Church in Ardstraw, requestinginformation about
> John and they were unable to find anything.
>
>
> I looked for John in ship passenger lists, hoping todetermine if he traveled
> to America with other family members and failed tolocate him.
>
>
> John was 19 years old when he migrated to America.  I doubt that he would
> have been able to affordhis passage without some form of assistance. I
> cannot find any agreements that would have helped pay his way toAmerica.
>
>
> I tried contacting people named McDevitt that are currentlyliving in County
> Tyrone.  The few that I did contact, did notwant to be bothered…
>
>
> I do see two McDevitts listed on the 1796 Flax Growers Listin County Tyrone
> (both in Urney).  John was a farmer, maybeone of the two flax growers is
> John’s father?
>
>
> According to John Grenham’s website, there are 35 ways tospell McDevitt,
> more than 70 ways to spell Gallagher and about 24 ways to spellSterritt.  I
> am probably missing manyrecords in my searches because of the spelling.
>
>
> Does anybody have any suggestions on how I might discoverJohn and Mary’s
> parents’ names or more about this family?
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Prater
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Coulter family - Cooel, Dromore

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Barb,

Cooel is part of Coolavannagh townland, or an alternative name for it.
Today that’s on the Glen Rd outside Drumquin. I see a death for a
William Coulter in Cooel on 3.2.1884 aged 67. His son William was the
informant.

There’s this 1 Coulter family there in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Clunahill/Coolavannagh/1722817/

Son Samuel was born at Cooel on 15.4.1872, and from that birth
certificate I can see his parents were William Coulter & Catherine
Wilson. You can see where the family farmed using the maps on the
Griffiths Valuation site:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

Use the slider bar in the top rh corner to overlay a modern map on the
contemporaneous one.

Same family in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Clunahill/Coolavannagh/852722/

Drumquin Presbyterian church only has records from 1845 onwards so
there are unlikely to be any records for the births of your John
Coulter c 1760 etc. There’s no Coulter family farming in Cooel in the
1826 tithes. There was a William farming in Curraghamulkin which is
not too far away. I have no way of saying whether he’s the William who
stayed in Ireland.

https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/longfieldwest.html

Elwyn


On 07/07/2019, BARBARA COULTER via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Hello County Tyrone listers,
>
> Hoping someone might be able to help out with some suggestions.  I was
> recently contacted by a previously unknown cousin of my husband who is
> planning a trip to County Tyrone this summer.  She is looking for places to
> visit that might be close to the family’s ancestral home in Cooel.
>
> Thomas Coulter (b. 1785) and his wife Isabelle Clendenning (b. 1785) were
> both from County Tyrone. According to family history, they moved to the US,
> via Canada, in about 1818. Thomas’s parents were thought to be John Coulter
> (b. abt 1760) and unknown  Culbertson (Ancestry trees have her name as
> Sharon, but I haven’t seen any evidence that it is true). Thomas’s siblings
> were Wiliam, John & James.  William remained in County Tyrone, and had
> children who married into the Wilson, Speer, and Lammy families in County
> Tyrone. No further information regarding John or James, but it is believed
> that they also moved to America.
>
>  I believe that they were Presbyterian.
>
> A mutual ancestor did a lot of research trying to trace the family in County
> Tyrone.  Her last correspondence was with Mrs. Robert Coulter, Cooel,
> Drumquin in 1968.  All efforts to contact the family in the 1970’s was
> futile.
>
> We would truly appreciated any suggestions/assistance that anyone might be
> able to provide.
>
> Thanks!
> Barb Coulter
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Steele/ Farr Families

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Ann,

The parish where the marriage took place is more commonly called Tullyniskan.

I searched the statutory marriage records for a first marriage for
Martha Farr 1845 – 1855 but did not find one. That suggests she
married before April 1845, which is when those records begin, or that
she had married outside Ireland. The townland where Martha was living
in 1855 was probably Drumreagh. There are two - Drumreagh Etra and
Drumreagh Otra. I searched both in Griffiths Valuation in 1860 for any
Rogers or Farr families but did not find any.

Likewise I searched Griffiths for a Steele family but there was none in 1860.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church. Of course if she was
previously married, or not native to the area, she may have moved
churches, but if Tullyniskan was her family church then their records
start in 1794. And in fact there are earlier records for that parish
in Drumglass. PRONI has a copy of those records. A personal visit is
required to view them there.

I see a Private Robert Farr on the Tullyniskan WW1 Role of Honour. I
have no way of knowing whether he might be a relation.

https://cotyroneireland.com/churchrecord/tullyniskan.html

There are 3 trees on Ancestry which have this family. Two have John
Steele born in Hamilton, Lanarkshire. The other has him born in Fife.
All agree he was born 26.9.1830. Clearly there isn’t a consensus on
where he was born but if it was Scotland then there may not be many
records to find in Ireland. Two of the trees have no parents. The
third has John’s father as Alexander which does not agree with the
1855 marriage certificate. So, as with so many trees on Ancestry, not
all the data may be totally reliable.

There appear to be children born in Lanarkshire 1856 to 1864 but
presumably you know that already. According to at least 1 tree Martha
Farr was born c 1822. It makes no mention of her first marriage and
does not list her parents.  Another tree gives her parents as Thomas
1777-1862 and Margaret (maiden name unknown) 1783 – 1864. That tree
indicates Thomas Farr was a soldier (enlisted 1801 and discharged 1822
in Caledon, Tyrone, no regiment given). His children were born
variously in Dublin, Stewartstown Tyrone, Magherafelt Co Derry,
Scotland and then several more in Tyrone. So he moved about a bit
making him harder to trace.  The tree states he died 18.12.1862 in
Desertcreat, Tyrone. That tree also has 2 Thomases, father & son, both
dying on 18.12.1862.  I suspect that may not be quite correct.

Statutory death registration started in Ireland in 1864 so if Margaret
Farr died in 1864 there should be a death certificate of her. There is
a death that fits. Margaret Farr died 22.11.1864 aged 83, registered
in Cookstown. You can view the original certificate on-line on the
GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50
(sterling) to a view a certificate.

Hope this helps a bit.


Elwyn




On 29/06/2019, Ann Zerdin via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Good Afternoon
> I am interested in obtaining any information available on the Steele/ Farr
> Families.  My 2nd Great Grandfather was John Steele who married Martha
> Rogers (Farr) in 1855.  According to the marriage certificate, John Steele
> was from Woodhill and his father was James Steele who was a Copper Smith.
> Martha Rogers (Farr) was a widow and was from Drumraz and her father was
> Thomas Farr who was a Sexton.  The marriage took place in Newmills in the
> parish of Tuilanisten (the spelling may be wrong) in the County of Tyrone.
> The marriage was witnessed by James Bulter and Hamilton Hart and performed
> by Robert Kingsmore.
> I am interested if there is any other information on either family.  I thank
> you in advance for your help.
> Ann

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[CoTyroneMailingList] Coulter Family

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Barb,

You say you can't find my message, so I am resending it:



Cooel is part of Coolavannagh townland, or an alternative name for it.
Today that’s on the Glen Rd outside Drumquin. I see a death for a
William Coulter in Cooel on 3.2.1884 aged 67. His son William was the
informant.

There’s this 1 Coulter family there in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Clunahill/Coolavannagh/1722817/

Son Samuel was born at Cooel on 15.4.1872, and from that birth
certificate I can see his parents were William Coulter & Catherine
Wilson. You can see where the family farmed using the maps on the
Griffiths Valuation site:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

Use the slider bar in the top rh corner to overlay a modern map on the
contemporaneous one.

Same family in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Clunahill/Coolavannagh/852722/

Drumquin Presbyterian church only has records from 1845 onwards so
there are unlikely to be any records for the births of your John
Coulter c 1760 etc. There’s no Coulter family farming in Cooel in the
1826 tithes. There was a William farming in Curraghamulkin which is
not too far away. I have no way of saying whether he’s the William who
stayed in Ireland.

https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/longfieldwest.html

Elwyn

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Hammond (or Haman) & Nancy GRAHAM

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Lindsay,

The townland where William Graham was living when he married in 1855
appears to be Artigarvan (where the church is also located). Today
that’s on the B49 Berryhill Rd, just outside Strabane. Sarah lived in
Milltown townland which is immediately adjacent.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so Leckpatrick
Presbyterian may be the Carnwath family church. It’s baptisms only
start in 1838 so too late for Sarah (born c 1833). You might find
siblings there though. Copy in PRONI in Belfast.

I looked in Griffiths Valuation for Artigarvan in 1858. There were no
Graham households then.  There were 2 Sigerson households though, one
of which was headed by James (same name as one of the witnesses to the
marriage). Possibly James was lodging with the Sigerson family at the
time he married.

There were 2 Carnwath households in Milltown: John & Robin. Robin was
on plot 7g which was a house and garden, all shared with Patrick
Hollywood. As you may know, Robin is often a diminutive or alternative
for Robert, so he could be Sarah’s father. (The famous Scottish poet
Robert Burns was known to his friends as Robin, not Robert, his given
name.).

Robin’s name remains as occupant of that property till 1890 when he is
deleted. It’s not clear what became of him after that. I cannot see a
death that fits.

Carnwath is not a common name in Ireland. There were only 16 people in
Ireland with the name in the 1901 census. (They were all Presbyterian
so almost certainly Scottish ancestry, same as the Grahams).


Elwyn

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Foremass

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Ian,

Foremass is in Errigal Keerogue parish.

Elwyn

On 14/04/2019, Ian Moules via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Dear All
>
> Which (parish) records should I be checking for relatives (Mullin/Mullen)
> from Foremass?
>
> I have a number of christening records from help that I received from
> members of this site previously, but I know a lot of records have been added
> since then.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Ian
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Sarah O Kane, Lost Child from Altdoghal, Ardstraw Parish, Co. Tyrone 1817

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Cheryl,

If you think that the Lyttle/Little family were Church of Ireland and
lived in Lisnaskea, have you searched the local Church of Ireland
records? Lisnaskea is one of several churches in the parish of
Aghalurcher. It’s baptism, marriage & burial records start in 1804.
The records aren’t on-line anywhere so far as I am aware but there is
a copy in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. A personal
visit is required to view them.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church after which she’d attend
her husband’s. Obviously if they both attended the same church then
that was irrelevant but it something to bear in mind if you find the
baptisms but no marriages (or vice versa).

A small part of the 1821 census for Aghalurcher has survived and is on
this website: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/ I did
search it but did not find Samuel or Dorcas.

If Samuel was a farmer, and was still in Ireland in 1833 you would
expect him to be in the tithe applotment records. There were 2 Samuel
Littles listed in the 1833 tithes for Aghalurcher. One lived in
Longfield and the other in Augheiter.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/fermanagh/tithe-applotment-books/parish-of-aghalurcher.php

Going forward to Griffiths Valuation in 1862 there were no Little
households listed in Longfield but there were 3 in Agheeghter
(Augheiter). No Samuel though.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

Your next step is probably to search the Lisnaskea church records.



Elwyn


On 02/07/2019, cheryl lyttle via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Good Morning Everyone!
>
> Have been enjoying the emails since I joined a few short weeks ago!
>
> So, my father's family is Enniskillen Fermanagh, CO Tyrone.  I trace back to
> Samuel Little (Lyttle) b 1790 d 1871 CO Carleton Canada.  His wife, I am
> taking an edumicated...lol guess Dorcas Ann Banford (Bamford) Lisnaskea
> Fermanagh.  (The Church of England Protestant)
>
> This is Samuel's first wife.  I know he has 5 children with her, we know of
> 2.
> First Daughter we believe
> Dorcas Ann Little (Brown) b. 1814
> William Little b. 1822 (my great grandfather)
>
> I believe her first name to be Dorcas Ann as both Dorcas Ann and William
> name their daughters in the proper order, using Dorcas Ann.  Banford is used
> as a middle name by both these two, and their children use it as well.  The
> other 5 half siblings do not.
>
> I have documents that list Samuel had 5 children with her.  So I am missing
> 3.
>
> We have Dorcas Ann b. 1814 and then William 1822  that is quite a spread,
> and his next child (with Annie Clarke) not till 1831(ish) and I know I have
> all their children.
>
> He remarries Annie Clarke I am just not sure if in Canada, or still in
> Ireland.  There seems to be some confusion as to where these children are
> born, with the exception of the last son James.  The First child I have of
> theirs is b. 1831.  Different documents show different birth places.
>
> Where they settled (still my home), there was the great fire of 1870.  Much
> was lost during that fire, so sadly destruction seemed to follow my
> Samuel...  I believe if there is a son before my William, he may be John
> Little.  I have a brother of Samuel's whose confirmed first born is named
> John.
>
> My hope, is that one of you know of a site I am NOT aware of that might have
> some info to help me along.  Or something I have overlooked.
>
> Any and all help is wonderful, and I appreciate you taking the time to read
> my email.
>
> Cheryl Lyttle
> Ottawa Canada
>
>
> Cheryl [http://gfx2.hotmail.com/mail/w2/ltr/../emoticons/smile_wink.gif]
>
> 
> From: CoTyroneList  on behalf of
> Jim McKane via CoTyroneList 
> Sent: June 30, 2019 8:06 PM
> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List
> Cc: Jim McKane
> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Sarah
> O Kane, Lost Child from Altdoghal, Ardstraw Parish, Co. Tyrone 1817
>
> Sarah OKane, Lost Child from Altdoghal, Ardstraw Parish, Co. Tyrone
> 1817
>
> Thanks again to Len Swindley for another great addition to CTI!
>
> Jim McKane
> South Bruce Peninsula, Ontario
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Hamilton ancestors

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Christine,

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church after which she’d
normally attend her husband’s. So marriage and children’s baptisms are
often in different churches. In this case the bride lived in Grange.
Grange is in Desertcreat, so I’d expect that to be her family church.
The groom was a butcher in Cookstown, which is in Derryloran parish.
So I would expect the children to have been baptised in Derryloran. If
you can’t find any for the early years of the marriage it may there
were no children, or none that survived long enough to be baptised
anyway.

But to answer your question about records for Desertcreat, they don’t
appear to be on-line anywhere yet. The Church of Ireland is putting
its records on-line (free) but this is a big project and no completion
date has been published yet. In the meantime you either have to get
someone to look up the copy in PRONI or you could write to the Rector,
who has the originals. If you write to the Rector, he/she is likely to
charge for searching. Last time I checked the Church of Ireland
published rate was £18 (sterling) an hour. Some parishes get a lot of
genealogical queries and they don’t all have the time to help, so not
all reply.

Rev David Bell - Incumbent
Tullyhogue Rectory
50 Lower Grange Road
Cookstown
BT80 8SL
Co Tyrone
028 8676 1163


Elwyn



On 29/07/2019, Peggy Gordon via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
>  I also have Hamiltons from Cookstown area in my tree. Robert Hamilton
> married to Margaret Mallon abt 1853. Their daughter Alice born Nov 30, 1862
> married into my Duffin family on Oct 27, 1891 when she married Joseph
> Duffin. Some of Joseph Duffin's great uncles emigrated to Ohio, then
> Illinois, then Minnesota. I don't know what church they belonged to or which
> parish. Robert Hamilton is the right age to  be a brother or a cousin to
> your Thomas.I also  live in Canada.Peggy Gordon
> On Monday, July 29, 2019, 12:34:12 p.m. PDT, WilliamScarrow via
> CoTyroneList  wrote:
>
>  Good Morning,
>
> Firstly...this is a wonderful site and resource!
> I am looking for a missing link in my Hamilton family that may connect me to
> some families in the US that I have found a DNA matches to.
> My Great Great Grandparents were Thomas Hamilton and Mary Ann McGrath of
> Cookstown, County Tyrone. They were married in 1846 in the Desetcreate
> church. I have found the children born after 1850 in the Derryloran church
> records, but I think  perhaps there may be children born before that date.
> I have tried to look at Desercreat baptisms on line, but, it seems they may
> only be available through PRONI. I live in Canada and hope to visit Ireland
> next year, but, in the meantime wondered if anyone would have a suggestion
> on another way to look at Desertcreat church records.
>
> Thank you,
> Regards,
> Christine Scarrow
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] James Ewing and Elizabeth Bell

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Karen,

You say Dennis Hopper has been traced to Tullyvannon in the parish of
Errigal Keerogue. I cannot find any Tullyvannon in Errigal Keerogue.
The only Tullyvannon in Tyrone is in the parish of Killeeshil.

Assuming Killeeshil is the parish the family lived in, the problem you
face is the lack of church records for the period you need. I note
that the Ewings were Presbyterian. There are 2 Presbyterian churches
in the area. Clonaleese Upper has no records before 1860. Clonaleese
Lower has baptisms from 1811 but no marriages before 1845.  Tradition
was to marry in the bride’s church. Hopper in Tyrone is mostly
Presbyterian but there are some Church of Ireland families (in the
1901 census). If Marjory was Church of Ireland then the Killeeshil
early records were destroyed in the 1922 fire in Dublin and they have
nothing earlier than 1881. So if we have the right parish, the reason
you are not able to trace the baptism and marriages you are interested
in is probably because no records exist for that period. There’s no
easy way around that.


Elwyn


On 18/08/2019, Karen Miller via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> I am trying to determine WHERE in County Tyrone my ancestors, James Ewing
> and his wife Elizabeth Bell, came from.  James Ewing was born about 1803 in
> Northern Ireland, probably in County Tyrone, and died in Newton Hamilton,
> Mifflin County, Pennsylvania, USA in 1847.  He immigrated to the US with his
> wife, Elizabeth Bell Ewing,  and baby son, William R. Ewing, in 1826.  I
> haven’t been able to trace him.  He is closely associated with William Ewing
> who came to Newton Hamilton in 1836.  Since I know a lot more about William
> Ewing’s family than my own ancestor, I’ve been trying to establish a link
> between the two men.  I’d like advice on how to proceed.
>
> William Ewing was born 21 Jul 1802 in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, and
> was married to Marjory Hopper about 1829.  The Hopper researchers have been
> busy.  Marjory Hopper’s father, Dennis Hopper, has been found in the Parish
> of Errigal Keerogue and the Townland of Tullyvannon.  I don’t have a
> marriage record for William Ewing and Marjory Hopper, nor do I have one for
> my ancestor, James Ewing and Elizabeth Bell who were probably married about
> 1824 in County Tyrone.  Both men were Presbyterians.
>
> I’d appreciate suggestions, and especially would like to hear from any other
> Ewing researchers.
>
> Thank you
> Karen Miller
> Wilmette, Illinois, USA

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Taggart/McKeever

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Looking at the PRONI catalogue of church records, there are 3
Presbyterian churches in Donagheady that the Taggart family might have
attended. Donagheady 1st seems to have lost its early records and has
nothing before 1875; Donagheady 2nd has records from 1838 and Donemana
from 1856.  If John was baptised around 1851 the only one with any
records is obviously the 2nd. There’s a copy of those records in PRONI
(the public record office) in Belfast. They are not on-line there, so
a personal visit is required to view them.

Having said that, my hunch is that the family church was Donemana.
That’s because Sarah Taggart from Liscloon (presumably a sister to
John) married there on 25.11.1854. Her husband was William McEgan from
Kildoge. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so
probably/possibly it’s the Taggart family church. If so, it seems
unlikely there’s any record of John’s baptism. However you may get
some of his siblings if they were born after 1855.

I note from the Valuation revision records that Francis Taggart’s name
remains against plot 8a (an agricultural labourer’s cottage) in
Liscloon Lower until 1877. He presumably either moved or died around
that year.

There were no Taggarts in Liscloon Lower in the 1901 census.



Elwyn


On 18/08/2019, Pat O’Fallon via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> I am looking for my great grandparents births. John Taggart lived in
> Liscloon, Donaghedy Parish in June 1851. His parents were Francis Taggart
> and Mary Breesen?Brisland married 2December1833 COI, Cumberland Upper, Co
> Derry. In Griffiths Valuation Francis was a tenant of William Oligby. John
> immigrated to NYC in 1868. I have the US side but have only the GV on the
> Irish side. Are there any Taggart’s still living there? John’s wife was
> Margaret McKeever from Moneycannon. They were married in NYC in 1872 at a
> Presbyterian Church so have to assume they were Presbyterian. She immigrated
> in 1870 with her mom Mary McLaughin. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Pat
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Thanks

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Pat,

The problem that you face is that the early records you need for your
family probably don’t exist. Either never kept or were lost. A very
common problem in Ireland. I am told that early Presbyterians in the
USA usually kept excellent records. All I can tell you is that it
Ireland they often didn’t. Or if they did keep them, there was a lot
of water damage, fires, carelessness and over enthusiastic cleaners
who chucked them out.  Taking Maghera in Co. Derry as an example, the
Presbyterian church there was burned in 1798 during the United Irish
uprising. Any records to that date were lost. The Minister had been
involved in the uprising and had to flee to the USA. (Probably a smart
move as his Kirk Session clerk, Watty Graham, was hanged on a tree
around the corner from the Presbyterian church). His successor was the
Rev Kennedy, appointed c 1802 who was there for about 35 years. By all
accounts an excellent man. However his successor, the Rev Witherow
described taking over from him c 1838 and asking for any baptism,
marriage and other important records that he might have. Rev Kennedy
said he didn’t have any. In fact he had no paperwork at all to hand
over after his 35 year career. That’s not untypical it seems. Records
were not seen as important. (By Rev Kennedy anyway).

If you are looking for Taggarts in the Liscloon area today, I’d say
there may not be any. (We know there were none in Liscloon Lower in
the 1901 census). Francis was a labourer. It might be helpful if I
explain that during the 1800s increased mechanisation on farms reduced
the need for labourers on farms. At the same time the other activity
that labourers did in their downtime  - hand loom weaving - was also
in decline being replaced by mechanized weaving in factories in
Belfast, Londonderry and elsewhere which made better quality material,
far more quickly and cheaper. So the rural labourers two main sources
of income were disappearing and they mostly left. They went to work in
Londonderry, Belfast, Scotland, England or further afield (as Francis
evidently did). So though the name Taggart is found widely across
Ireland, I have no confidence there are any of your family still in
the Liscloon area today. There might be, but somehow I doubt it.

If you are looking for Taggart descendants in Ireland, why don't you
pursue the lead I gave you regarding Francis’s daughter Sarah Taggart
(born c 1834) who married William McEgan/McKeegan? They evidently
remained in Ireland. They may have living descendants in Ireland or
the UK today. Here’s Sarah and some of her family in 1901 & 1911 in
Londonderry:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Waterside/Duke_Street/1540071/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_No__5_Urban/Duke_Street/606313/

Sarah died on 30.3.1912 at 51 Duke St, Londonderry. I mentioned
previously she had a daughter Margaret born in Londonderry on
14.10.1867. In addition, I can see a son James born 19.10.1870 in
Glenties, Donegal and Joseph born same place 18.6.1874. William was
working there as a caretaker. Looking at a couple of trees on Ancestry
that have this family there also appears to have been a Florence born
1851 in Strabane and a Mary Jane who died 4.1.1944 in Londonderry. And
there may have been other children.

Mary Jane married William Pollock in St Columb’s cathedral,
Londonderry, on 31.10.1881. (Her surname there is recorded as Egans.
She had evidently dropped the “Mc” prefix as many did. (The O’ and Mc
prefixes in Irish names are optional and many dispensed with them at
times.)

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/No__3_Urban/Bennett_Street__right_hand_side_/1529289/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_No__3_Urban/Bennett_Street/600155/

The above family is probably the closest ancestors/relations in
Ireland you are going to find.




Elwyn


On 19/08/2019, Pat via CoTyroneList  wrote:
> Ok. That’s what I was thinking of. Thanks. I’ll be in Ireland in Derry the
> 22 of September and Belfast the 23 of September. I hope to have time to
> drive down to Liscloon area and get to the PRONI office but it’ll be tight.
> Any suggestion for the PRONI office to look threw? Or are there any
> Taggart’s/McKeevers still around Liscloon I might talk to? Thanks again for
> all the information. Pat
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 10:43, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList
>>  wrote:
>>
>> There are some Ogilby papers in PRONI, mainly under the holding D1550.
>> There are some leases but I don’t see anything that looks like rental
>> books if that is what you had in mind. And even if they did have them,
>> there’s not going to be a lot of detail on a labourer’s cottage.
>>
>> Elwyn
>>
>> On 19/08/2019, Pat O'Fallon via CoTyroneList
>>  wrote:
>>> Lew, Elwyn and Peter, Thank

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Taggart/McKeever: Donagheady Parish Presbyterian Records

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

>
> It is a formidable collection contributed by numerous descendants of
> Donagheady emigrants to Canada, U.S. and Australia. I trust that there are
> researchers who have benefited from this great collection.
>
> Regards,
>
> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
> 10
>
>
>
> From: elwyn soutter via
> CoTyroneList<mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>
> Sent: Monday, 19 August 2019 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Taggart/McKeever
>
>
>
> Pat,
>
> One item I forgot to add was that Francis’s daughter Sarah Taggart
> (who married William McEgan or McKeegan in 1854) had at least 1 child.
> I noticed the birth of a daughter Margaret McKeegan to those parents,
> in Londonderry on 14.10.1867. There may well have been others between
> 1854 and 1863 but those years are before the start of statutory birth
> registration and so won’t be in the statutory records.
>
> Good luck with your search anyway.
>
>
> Elwyn
>
>
> On 19/08/2019, Pat via CoTyroneList 
> wrote:
>> Elwyn,
>> Francis and his wife Mary and daughters emigrated to US in 1880. Mary died
>> 6
>> months later and Francis died 28 September 1883. Margaret b 1854 died in
>> NYC
>> 10 November 1906. Jane died 8 October 1881 in NYC. They were both
>> seamstress. I will be in Ireland up that way on 22/23 September. I’ve
>> been
>> to the PRONI in 2014 but didn’t find anything except that Francis parents
>> could be William and Anne Irwin. Can’t find anything about when where
>> they
>> were married. I think Williams parents were Francis and Dorothy Taggart
>> but
>> no proof. Thanks for the help. Pay
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Aug 18, 2019, at 17:34, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Looking at the PRONI catalogue of church records, there are 3
>>> Presbyterian churches in Donagheady that the Taggart family might have
>>> attended. Donagheady 1st seems to have lost its early records and has
>>> nothing before 1875; Donagheady 2nd has records from 1838 and Donemana
>>> from 1856.  If John was baptised around 1851 the only one with any
>>> records is obviously the 2nd. There’s a copy of those records in PRONI
>>> (the public record office) in Belfast. They are not on-line there, so
>>> a personal visit is required to view them.
>>>
>>> Having said that, my hunch is that the family church was Donemana.
>>> That’s because Sarah Taggart from Liscloon (presumably a sister to
>>> John) married there on 25.11.1854. Her husband was William McEgan from
>>> Kildoge. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so
>>> probably/possibly it’s the Taggart family church. If so, it seems
>>> unlikely there’s any record of John’s baptism. However you may get
>>> some of his siblings if they were born after 1855.
>>>
>>> I note from the Valuation revision records that Francis Taggart’s name
>>> remains against plot 8a (an agricultural labourer’s cottage) in
>>> Liscloon Lower until 1877. He presumably either moved or died around
>>> that year.
>>>
>>> There were no Taggarts in Liscloon Lower in the 1901 census.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Elwyn
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18/08/2019, Pat O’Fallon via CoTyroneList
>>>  wrote:
>>>> I am looking for my great grandparents births. John Taggart lived in
>>>> Liscloon, Donaghedy Parish in June 1851. His parents were Francis
>>>> Taggart
>>>> and Mary Breesen?Brisland married 2December1833 COI, Cumberland Upper,
>>>> Co
>>>> Derry. In Griffiths Valuation Francis was a tenant of William Oligby.
>>>> John
>>>> immigrated to NYC in 1868. I have the US side but have only the GV on
>>>> the
>>>> Irish side. Are there any Taggart’s still living there? John’s wife was
>>>> Margaret McKeever from Moneycannon. They were married in NYC in 1872 at
>>>> a
>>>> Presbyterian Church so have to assume they were Presbyterian. She
>>>> immigrated
>>>> in 1870 with her mom Mary McLaughin. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
>>>> Pat
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Thanks

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

There are some Ogilby papers in PRONI, mainly under the holding D1550.
There are some leases but I don’t see anything that looks like rental
books if that is what you had in mind. And even if they did have them,
there’s not going to be a lot of detail on a labourer’s cottage.

Elwyn

On 19/08/2019, Pat O'Fallon via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Lew, Elwyn and Peter, Thanks so much for the sites. I’ve been to most of
> these with no luck. Do y’all know if any records survived from the Olgilbys
> house other than the validation?  Thanks again, Pat
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Taggart/McKeever

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Pat,

One item I forgot to add was that Francis’s daughter Sarah Taggart
(who married William McEgan or McKeegan in 1854) had at least 1 child.
I noticed the birth of a daughter Margaret McKeegan to those parents,
in Londonderry on 14.10.1867. There may well have been others between
1854 and 1863 but those years are before the start of statutory birth
registration and so won’t be in the statutory records.

Good luck with your search anyway.


Elwyn


On 19/08/2019, Pat via CoTyroneList  wrote:
> Elwyn,
> Francis and his wife Mary and daughters emigrated to US in 1880. Mary died 6
> months later and Francis died 28 September 1883. Margaret b 1854 died in NYC
> 10 November 1906. Jane died 8 October 1881 in NYC. They were both
> seamstress. I will be in Ireland up that way on 22/23 September. I’ve been
> to the PRONI in 2014 but didn’t find anything except that Francis parents
> could be William and Anne Irwin. Can’t find anything about when where they
> were married. I think Williams parents were Francis and Dorothy Taggart but
> no proof. Thanks for the help. Pay
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 18, 2019, at 17:34, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Looking at the PRONI catalogue of church records, there are 3
>> Presbyterian churches in Donagheady that the Taggart family might have
>> attended. Donagheady 1st seems to have lost its early records and has
>> nothing before 1875; Donagheady 2nd has records from 1838 and Donemana
>> from 1856.  If John was baptised around 1851 the only one with any
>> records is obviously the 2nd. There’s a copy of those records in PRONI
>> (the public record office) in Belfast. They are not on-line there, so
>> a personal visit is required to view them.
>>
>> Having said that, my hunch is that the family church was Donemana.
>> That’s because Sarah Taggart from Liscloon (presumably a sister to
>> John) married there on 25.11.1854. Her husband was William McEgan from
>> Kildoge. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so
>> probably/possibly it’s the Taggart family church. If so, it seems
>> unlikely there’s any record of John’s baptism. However you may get
>> some of his siblings if they were born after 1855.
>>
>> I note from the Valuation revision records that Francis Taggart’s name
>> remains against plot 8a (an agricultural labourer’s cottage) in
>> Liscloon Lower until 1877. He presumably either moved or died around
>> that year.
>>
>> There were no Taggarts in Liscloon Lower in the 1901 census.
>>
>>
>>
>> Elwyn
>>
>>
>> On 18/08/2019, Pat O’Fallon via CoTyroneList
>>  wrote:
>>> I am looking for my great grandparents births. John Taggart lived in
>>> Liscloon, Donaghedy Parish in June 1851. His parents were Francis Taggart
>>> and Mary Breesen?Brisland married 2December1833 COI, Cumberland Upper, Co
>>> Derry. In Griffiths Valuation Francis was a tenant of William Oligby.
>>> John
>>> immigrated to NYC in 1868. I have the US side but have only the GV on the
>>> Irish side. Are there any Taggart’s still living there? John’s wife was
>>> Margaret McKeever from Moneycannon. They were married in NYC in 1872 at a
>>> Presbyterian Church so have to assume they were Presbyterian. She
>>> immigrated
>>> in 1870 with her mom Mary McLaughin. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Pat
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Thanks/ Ogilby Estate, Lisnacloon, Donemana, , Co Tyrone

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Pat,

You say that you are not sure if the Sarah Taggart is your branch, as
everything you have doesn’t list her as a child of Francis & Mary. All
I can say is that on her marriage certificate she gave her townland as
Liscloon, her father as Francis Taggart, labourer and as you have said
yourself he was the only 1 in Tyrone. So it’s a bit of a coincidence
if he’s not her father.

Elwyn


On 20/08/2019, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> I would be looking at Clondermot parish, Co. Londonderry (contiguous to
> Donagheady)for the origins of both the Taggarts and McKeevers, Pat: there
> are several recorded in Griffiths Valuation c1860
> http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
>
> Am unable to offer any further thoughts. Good luck
>
> Len
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows
> 10
>
> From: Pat
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 August 2019 10:13 PM
> To: Len Swindley
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Thanks/ Ogilby Estate, Lisnacloon,
> Donemana,, Co Tyrone
>
> Thanks Len. The Validation is where I found Francis as he was the only
> Taggart in Co Tyrone. Also my Alex McKeever. I know Francis left the Ogilbys
> estate in 1877 not sure what he and family did but they immigrated in 1880
> to US. My timeline I’m working on is where were they before the estate?
> Taggart is Scot/Irish so when did they come from Scotland? I’m not a trained
> genealogist and sometimes I just fumble around . This group has given me
> so much help. I’m not sure if the Sarah Taggart is my branch as everything I
> have doesn’t list her as a child of Francis Taggart and Mary Brisland. I’ll
> keep looking into this. Thanks again for all the leads. Pat
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 20, 2019, at 05:55, Len Swindley
> mailto:len_swind...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
> Pat,
>
> There are very few surviving records for this estate. Looking at Griffiths
> Valuation for Donagheady (1858), there are many labourers’ cottages within
> both Lisnacloon Upper and Lower and none of them of great value; most likely
> consisting of two rooms, constructed of mud and stone with straw (not
> thatched) roofs.
>
> Referring to William Roulston’s “Three Centuriees of Life in a Tyrone
> Parish: A History of Donagheady from 1600 to 1900” (2010) available as an
> ebook https://www.cotyroneireland.com/estore/index.php?detailrecid=15 there
> is a deal of information covering the Lisnacloon estate. During the Famine,
> William Ogilby  undertook works projects offering employment to large
> numbers of the destitute and starving. In a letter of 1848 he claimed he was
> “daily employing 300 to 400 hands representing probably from 1,500 to 2,000
> human beings who would otherwise have starved or been thrown on the rates
> [workhouse], so that if I  do myself future good, I am conferring a great
> private benefit to the county”. Life was certainly tough in the bad old
> days. None of the 300-400 labourers would have held a lease on their humble
> residences: they were merely day labourers occupying one of the estate
> cottages “at will”.
>
> The estate found itself in considerable financial difficulties in the 1870s
> and went to sale 1901-04. Rachel Dysart generously transcribed the sale
> papers some years ago and contributed a file to CTI
> https://www.cotyroneireland.com/index.html You can locate it at
> https://www.cotyroneireland.com/estates/ogilby2.html CTI is a great
> website!
>
> Regards,
> LEN Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Fw: grandmother research

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Patty,

I noticed this death announcement for Quentin Hurst of 10, Aghnahoe Rd:

https://www.funeraltimes.com/quentinhurst404931566

There is still someone named Hurst at that address in the current
phone book. No Nicholas listed. I note that Quentin was buried in the
churchyard at Ballyreagh Presbyterian church. So that may be the first
place to search for other family. Note that there is no requirement to
record where someone is buried in Ireland and so finding documentary
records of a burial (as opposed to the death) can often be tricky,
unless it’s mentioned in a burial announcement like this.  Asking the
family is usually the best place to start.

Farmers tended to be slightly better off and often did have
gravestones but the average person in the 1800s was buried without
one. So if you don’t find a gravestone that doesn’t mean the family
aren’t there. Few graveyards for the 1800s have plot records (ie
showing who is buried where).



Elwyn


On 28/08/2019, Patricia Schickling via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I’ll be in Tyrone County come this October and would really like to track
> down the burial site of my great-grandparents.
>
> In the attached you’ll find the death cert of my great-great grandparents in
> Auckland, NZ.  The other death certs are for my great-grandparents William &
> Isabella McKeown.
>
> Additionally, I’m trying to find out if my grand-mother’s nephew (or
> possibly great-nephew) Nicholas Hurst is still alive. I have copied in here
> his postal address last known from December 2000.
>
> Any assistance or direction you may provide is certainly appreciated as I
> would like to visit the grave of my great-grandparents if possible. It would
> also be neat to meet my “third” cousin (I believe) if indeed he’s still
> alive & residing in the same home.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Patty Murphy
>
> |
>  |
> |
>  |
> |
>  |
> |
>  |
> |
>  |
> |
>
>
>  |
> |
>  |
>
>
>
>
> #yiv7683407997 P.yiv7683407997ImprintUniqueID {MARGIN:0cm 0cm
> 0pt;}#yiv7683407997 LI.yiv7683407997ImprintUniqueID {MARGIN:0cm 0cm
> 0pt;}#yiv7683407997 DIV.yiv7683407997ImprintUniqueID {MARGIN:0cm 0cm
> 0pt;}#yiv7683407997 TABLE.yiv7683407997ImprintUniqueIDTable {MARGIN:0cm 0cm
> 0pt;}#yiv7683407997 DIV.yiv7683407997Section1 {}

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Relatives

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Agnes,

Scottish birth certificates for the year 1855 and 1861 onwards should
record where and when the parents married.  It seems you may have
found some that just say Tyrone. Usually there’s more than that. Check
all possible Scottish certificates for the years I have given, in case
you get some with a specific parish (and a date of marriage) in
Ireland. If any child was born there in 1855 those usually record both
the parents places of birth too, as well as how many children the
couple had and whether they were still alive. (This was dropped after
1855 as too cumbersome).

Elwyn

On 26/08/2019, Agnes Friel via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Hi
>
> Just wondering if you can help I am trying to track down Patrick Muldoon and
> Martha Quinn my 3rd grt grandparents approx year of birth 1820s . I have
> some certificates from Scotland's people and it states they were married
> around 1849 in County Tyrone but as yet I cannot find anything.  I believe
> Patrick may have had a brother called John Muldoon but can't confirm this as
> Patrick's death cert states parents unknown . John's parents were Patrick
> Muldoon and Catherine Hamill . Any help would be appreciated or if you could
> point me in the direction of any other sites that would be great.
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read my email.
>
> Regards Agnes Muldoon Friel
>
> Get Outlook for Android
>
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Tithe applotment indices list Kilsally

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

When comparing the size of the tithes with  the plots in Griffiths (as Len
has suggested) it's important to remember that tithes were normally
measured in Irish acres, whereas Griffiths is in statute acres.So you
cannot directly compare the two correctly without adjusting for the
difference. To convert Irish acres to statute, multiply by 1.62.

In the 1700s and earlier, many leases in Ulster used Cunningham acres (a
measure used widely in Scotland and Northern England, as well as in Ulster)
but we can save that for another day.

By the way there are 40 perches in a rood, 4 roods in an acre.


Elwyn

On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 at 05:06, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Good luck with that Peggy and yes, these images are available via the LDS.
> It is useful to look at the acreage of the holdings; if they are of a
> similar size, it indicates that the original farm was divided indicating
> those recorded as possibly father and/or sons/ brothers; this will be
> confirmed if the properties adjoin.
>
>
>
> Len
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
> --
> *From:* Peggy Gordon 
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 31, 2019 9:49:55 AM
> *To:* CoTyroneIreland. com Mailing List ;
> Len Swindley 
> *Subject:* Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Tithe applotment indices list
> Kilsally
>
>
> Thank you Len for this information and especially for the film number.
> When I tried to locate the records on Family Search under the Ireland Tithe
> Applotment Book, the correct Duffins did not come up. When I used the film
> number, I found the correct collection, however, I have to go to the
> nearest Family History Centre to view them, which isn't open until Tuesday.
> Online, you just see blank images.
> Peggy
> On Friday, August 30, 2019, 06:18:45 a.m. PDT, Len Swindley <
> len_swind...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Peggy,
>
>
>
> The 1826 Ballyclog Tithe Applotment Book was filmed by the LDS back in the
> 1970s. The film has been digitised and is available for consultation online
> at any Family History Centre or affiliated library. The Familysearch film
> number is 258446; it is the first item on the film which makes searching
> quite simple. A tithe book will not indicate the length of a lease: that
> information would be recorded in the estate’s lease books. You could refer
> to online c1860 Griffiths Valuation and continue with the online Revision
> Books
> https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/searching-valuation-revision-books
>
> Good luck.
>
>
>
> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
> --
> *From:* CoTyroneList  on behalf
> of Peggy Gordon via CoTyroneList 
> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2019 8:29:26 PM
> *To:* CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
> *Cc:* Peggy Gordon 
> *Subject:* [CoTyroneMailingList] Tithe applotment indices list Kilsally
>
> I have found the names of four Duffin males on the Tithe Applotment
> indices list for Kilsally Townland, Ballyclog Parish in 1826. They are
> James, Mark, David, and Patrick and all four names appear on my family
> tree. Is there a way to find out exactly which piece of land each of them
> owned or leased? I would like to know the location and the size of the
> land.  Is there a way to find out how long each of them was on their piece
> of land?
> Thanks for your help.
> Peggy
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad 
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Revision Books of Griffiths Valuation

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Griffiths clerks revisited properties every couple of years and noted the
changes. A different colour was normally used for each year. Sometimes the
years can be out by a year or two. The books themselves do have a specific
start and finish dates which are evident if you handle the originals.
Typically they lasted 7 to 10 years but some were for different periods.
The changes in the VAL numbers were usually because of population changes
which meant that some electoral districts needed split or moved.

Elwyn

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 03:49, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> My recent subscription to the Mailing List has paid off almost
> immediately! Many thanks to Len Swindley for recently drawing attention to
> the online Revision Books.  I had no idea they existed. The coverage over
> time and name changes have provided quite solid confirmation of aspects of
> my family tree.
>
> I have noticed that the date of changes is unclear, being restricted to
> specific periods of years, so the best I have been able to conclude is that
> the change(s) took place by such and such year at the latest.  Change
> sequences are clear and useful. Sometimes the same book (going by page
> markings) purports to cover several different time periods even though
> having different “VAL” numbers. This creates a bit of uncertainty. The
> books themselves do not seem to have dates.  Does anyone have any comments
> in this regard?
>
> Peter McKittrick
> Cheltenham, Vic Australia
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] A Query on the Ulster Plantation - a late arrival?

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Gordon,

The Plantation of Ulster was very much a 17th century event. The main
years when folk arrived were 1610-1630. Anyone arriving in the 19th
century did not come as part of the Plantation.

Folk did arrive after the Plantation. For example, in the 1640s,
General Monro’s army of 10,000 Scots was disbanded at Carrickfergus
and many of them chose to stay rather than return to Scotland, and
there was a huge influx from Scotland in the 1690s due to famine
there. By the 1700s people were leaving again in significant numbers.
And this increased dramatically in the 1800s. So someone could have
settled in Ireland in the 1800s but it would have been against the
flow, so to speak.

Philip Robinson’s book “The Plantation of Ulster” is good background
reading. See:

http://orrnamestudy.com/plantnire1610.htm

There are no lists of settlers at the time of the Plantation. However
we do know the names of the Chief and Ordinary Undertakers (ie the
main estate owners) and where they came from in Scotland and England.
Since they brought many tenants with them, it is sometimes possible to
point broadly to where someone’s family might have originated, but
that only applies if they arrived in 1610-1630.

You say your Wilkinson ancestor arrived in Ireland in the 1800s. How
sure are you about that? The reason that I ask is because according to
the Muster Rolls (c 1630) there was a William Wilkinson on the
Powerscourt estate then. He had a sword and a caliver (a light musket)
indicating he was quite comfortably off financially. There is a
footnote in Bob Hunter’s book on the Muster Rolls stating:

“Wilkinson, who appears to have been reputedly a healer, was resident
in Benburb when he was killed 1641 or 1642 (Examination of Thomas
Dixon 15 March 1653). TCD MS 836, fols 120r -120v).” That examination
(Interview) can be viewed on this site:

http://www.1641.tcd.ie/index.php

So there was 1 Wilkinson family on the Powerscourt estate in 1630.
Could your family have in fact arrived as part of the Plantation after
all? Have you searched the Registry of Deeds or PRONI for Wilkinson
leases or other records relating to the 1700s for example?


Elwyn


On 31/07/2019, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> Hi Listers,
>
> I hope someone can add to my understanding of the Ulster Plantation.
> Family legend has it that my great-great grandfather, John Wilkinson
> (~1802-1878) was a plantationer from York, Yorkshire. He settled in
> Coolkill townland, near Eglish, about 10kn SSW from Dungannon (I have
> the actual farmland that he worked). The Griffith Index (1847-1864) has
> him leasing a tenement in 1860 from Viscount Powerscourt. Now my
> understanding is that the main Plantation of Tyrone was in 1609 under
> James I although activity continued off and on until around 1688. This
> doesn't agree with my family legend where John was supposedly the first
> plantationer of the family. Was there any plantation after 1688,
> specifically to Tyrone, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries? My
> GGgrandfather would have arrived in the early 19thC, if he was indeed a
> plantationer. Perhaps a private plantation?
>
> On another track, is there any record of the names of plantationers,
> dates of arrival in Ireland and their home towns of origin?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Gordon Wilkinson
>
> --
> _
> Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia.
> Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: neredon
> Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au
> nereda.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au
>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Emigration to......England

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Ian,

Tyrone to Durham was (and still is) a short domestic journey. There
have never been passenger lists for that type of travel within the
British isles.


Elwyn


On 07/08/2019, Ian Moules via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> My great grandmother, Margaret Mullin, when a child, emigrated from Tyrone
> to Consett, Co. Durham some time between 1877 and 1881.
>
> Are there passenger records for people who travelled from Ireland to the uk
> or was this too commonplace given that it would not be considered
> emigration.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ian Moules
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Maguire Family

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Angela,

I see that Patrick McPhillips was in the RIC, and presumably stationed
at Trillick when he met Margaret. RIC policy was not to post an
Officer to a county in which he or his wife had connections.
Consequently when a police officer married someone local as in this
case, it normally meant they had to move to another county. So that
probably explains their move to Belfast. His service records may be on
Ancestry.

Patrick appears to have been born in Latnamard, parish of Aghabog, Co. Monaghan.

I see 3 children to Patrick & Margaret’s marriage, all born in Belfast:

Patrick 13.7.1898
John 4.2.1902
James 29.4.1910

Here’s the family in the 1901 & 1911 censuses:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Dock_Ward/Spamount_Street/937355/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Dock_Ward/Spamount_Street/138472/

Griffiths Valuation for 1860 lists just 1 Maguire household in
Monyegar. That was Charles. He had 2 plots of land. Charles appears to
have died in 1877 aged 83, and the farm then passed to Bernard (who is
there in the 1901 census).

These 2 Maguire households in Moneygar in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Trillick/Moneygar/1741219/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Trillick/Moneygar/1741232/

Sarah Maguire died 20.2.1900 at Moneygar, aged 80. Her son Arthur was
the informant.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05771/4631142.pdf

A Probate abstract from the PRONI wills site. The full file is in
PRONI in paper format. If you can’t get there in person they’ll copy
it for a fee:

Maguire John of Moneygar Trillick county Tyrone farmer died 29 March
1948 Probate Londonderry 22 December to Thomas McGee publican. Effects
£682 5s.

There were half a dozen McPhillips families in Latnamard in 1901. I’ll
let you work out which is the right one:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Drumhillagh/Latnamard/




Elwyn

On 23/07/2019, Angela Gawthorpe via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> It is a very long time since I wrote anything on this website and I have
> forgotten how to do it. I am looking for information about the Maguire/
> Mcphillips family. My grandmother Margaret Maguire was born 5 Feb 1879 In
> Irvinestown. She was Baptised in Kilskeery on 22nd Feb 1870. She was married
> in  the church on Mageheralough to Patrick McPhillips. on 4th Oct 1893. I
> know they moved to Belfast where father and 2 other siblings were born.
> Margaret’s father was Cornelius Maguire and his mother Sarah McCaghey/
> McCaughey. I think Sarah died on 20 Feb 1900 in Monegar. Any further help
> would be great thanks.
> Angela Gawthorpe
>

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] John Chambers (1796-1867)

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Tom,


If you contact the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast, they are
likely to have records on the Rev MaClear which should tell you where he
served as Minister (as well as other information about his life).



http://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com



The term “Meeting House” was how many Presbyterians described their church.
It didn’t mean it wasn’t a church, just that they favoured that turn of
phrase. You will often see the term Meeting House on Presbyterian marriage
certificates in Ireland. It was normally a consecrated church.



Elwyn

On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 16:22, Tom Chambers via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> I would eventually like to write a “Born  ,died in Tyrone” for my 3rd
> great grandfather John Chambers (1796-1867).
>
>
>
> I already have some good information about him.  He was a Linen Merchant,
> lived on Upper Street (now Main Street) in Newtownstewart and for a time
> owned and ran the corn mill in Milltown, just outside of Newtownstewart
> (thanks, Len)   Also he married Martha Maclear, sister of Sir Thomas
> Maclear who was just commemorated for his work in astronomy.  I have found
> lots of information on their three children: Thomas, Mary Ann, and George
> some of which I have posted on this site.
>
>
>
>1. I do not know where John was born.  I have some information to
>formulate a hunch that he came from the London area.   But nothing
>concrete.  There were Chambers in the Newtownstewart, Strabane, area I but
>can not find a link.
>2. I do not know when or where John and Martha got married.  They were
>Presbyterian, and in fact Martha’s father was the Rev James T. Maclear.
>John and Martha are buried in the cemetery at the top of the hill on Main
>Street in Newtownstewart.  Their first son, Thomas was born in 1821.  So,
>that narrows it down.
>
>
>
> Any help finding these two things would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> By the way I have never found anything that says what church the Rev James
> T. Maclear was at.   Maybe at that time it was just a meeting house?
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> Tom Chambers
>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] John Chambers (1796-1867)

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Tom/Len,

Much obliged to Len for looking for Rev Maclear.



I would still recommend contacting the PBS in Belfast. The lady likely to
deal with your enquiry is Valerie Adams. She’s very knowledgeable - she
used to be the head of PRONI - and there’s not much she doesn’t know about
Presbyterian Ministers. In addition to the main published guides Len has
used, sometimes referred to as FASTI, she has notebooks with additional
information, including all the various seceder branches of Presbyterianism.
She might have something, and if she doesn’t she’ll probably be interested
in him because she is trying to ensure there is information on every
Minister who has ever had a congregation in Ireland. Even from very early
times (ie mid 1600s) a Presbytery had to approve the appointment of a new
Minister, and so there are pretty good records of most of them. But I am
sure there may be small gaps.



The Rev Maclear should have had a degree, and he would almost certainly
have obtained that in Scotland. (Presbyterians couldn’t obtain a theology
degree in Ireland till the mid 1800s. Trinity was the only
College/University in Ireland then and you had to be Church of Ireland to
study theology there). So Presbyterians went to Scotland. In the 1700s and
early 1800s there were 4 universities in Scotland: St Andrews, Aberdeen,
Glasgow & Edinburgh. They keep pretty good records of their old graduates
and you could contact them to see if any has a record of him attending or
matriculating. I have done that in the past with success. It’s worth noting
that not everyone matriculated. There was an additional fee for
matriculation. Some couldn’t or wouldn’t afford it and so just did the
course, which was generally acceptable in those times. Even in medicine it
wasn’t mandatory to pass an exam until the mid 1800s. Just having attended
the course was considered sufficient to enable you to practice, which is
fairly thought provoking. It was enough to have been there!



Elwyn

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 at 08:21, Len Swindley  wrote:

> Elwyn & Tom,
>
>
>
> Referring to “History of Congregations in the Presbyterian in Ireland
> 1610-1982” (Presbyterian Historical Society , Belfast, 1982) and its
> separate index also published by the PHS & the Ulster Historical
> Foundation, 1996), I am unable to locate an entry for the Rev. Thomas T.
> Maclear (or variant). So then went to “The Seceders in Ireland with Annals
> of Their Congregations – Rev. David Stewart (Presbyterian Historical
> Society, 1950), and again there are no references to him. The Seceders
> joined the General Assembly in 1840 to form the Presbyterian Church in
> Ireland.
>
>
>
> The Presbyterian Churches of Newtownstewart (2) and Ardstraw Parish (a
> total of seven) are covered in the above works, but sadly there are no
> references to the Rev. Maclear.
>
>
>
> A point that may be of interest to researchers is that Anglicans (Church
> of Ireland) went to Church, Catholics attended the Chapel and Presbyterians
> gathered in the Meeting House.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList 
> *Sent: *Friday, 6 December 2019 6:10 AM
> *To: *CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
> *Cc: *elwyn soutter 
> *Subject: *Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] John Chambers (1796-1867)
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
>
>
> If you contact the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast, they are
> likely to have records on the Rev MaClear which should tell you where he
> served as Minister (as well as other information about his life).
>
>
>
> http://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com
>
>
>
> The term “Meeting House” was how many Presbyterians described their
> church. It didn’t mean it wasn’t a church, just that they favoured that
> turn of phrase. You will often see the term Meeting House on Presbyterian
> marriage certificates in Ireland. It was normally a consecrated church.
>
>
>
>
>
> Elwyn
>
>
>
> On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 16:22, Tom Chambers via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
> I would eventually like to write a “Born  ,died in Tyrone” for my 3rd
> great grandfather John Chambers (1796-1867).
>
>
>
> I already have some good information about him.  He was a Linen Merchant,
> lived on Upper Street (now Main Street) in Newtownstewart and for a time
> owned and ran the corn mill in Milltown, just outside of Newtownstewart
> (thanks, Len)   Also he married Martha Maclear, sister of Sir Thomas
> Maclear who was just commemorated for his work in astronomy.  I have found
> lots of information on their three children: Thomas, Mary Ann, and George
> som

[CoTyroneMailingList] Re Campbell research - Message for Donna Campbell

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Donna,

Your family may not be easy to trace. Both Mary & Elizabeth were almost
certainly born before the start of statutory birth registration (1864) and
so you won’t get birth certificates for them. You need to rely on church
records for baptisms before 1864. Not all those records have survived and
of the ones that do exist, not all are on-line. So you may have to go to
PRONI and search there (or get someone else to do that for you if you
can’t).



Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church (after which she’d attend her
husband’s). However in this case one girl married in the Presbyterian
church and the other in the Church of Ireland, so we don’t even have a
clear steer on what denomination they were.



The only hint I can give you is that both women named their first daughters
Maggie. Tradition was to name the first daughter after the mother’s mother.
So that hints that John Burrows wife was Maggie/Margaret. Not much to go on.



I see from the marriage certificates that in 1874 John was described as a
caretaker and in 1888 as a labourer.  Labourers moved around a lot, to
follow the available work, and can be difficult to trace. I looked in
Griffiths Valuation for Tyrone in 1860. There are 3 John Burrows listed but
all were farmers, so not your family.



Probably all you can do is get someone to go through all the Church of
Ireland and Presbyterian records for Tyrone in PRONI, to see if they can
spot these two baptisms. There’s 43 parishes, so I’d say there will be
about 100 churches. Not all will have records for the period you need (some
Church of Ireland records were destroyed in the 1922 fire) but it’s still
quite a lot of records to go through.



Elwyn
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CTI Updates & Additons

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

JoAnn,



You haven’t said what denomination your McQuade family was but looking at
the 1901 census for Tyrone all 131 were RC so I’ll assume yours were too.



I searched the rootsireland records for any McQuade children born in Tyrone
in 1830 +/- 10 years to parents named Dominick and Susan. I did not find
any. I also checked the Ancestry RC records and likewise didn’t find
anything. The problem may be that the parish your ancestor came from may
not have records for that period. That wasn’t uncommon.  Many RC parishes
didn't start keeping records till the 1820s or later. There are few other
records to refer to at that period.



I checked the tithe applotment records for Tyrone for the period 1825 –
1835. They should list anyone with land (the tithes were essentially a land
tax). There was no Dominick McQuade listed suggesting your ancestor
probably wasn’t a farmer.



Statutory death registration started in Ireland in 1864. I searched the
stat records for  Co Tyrone for a Dominic(k) who died 1864 – 1901 but did  find
any. Likewise for Susan, I found just 2 of the right age. One was a
spinster who died  in 1884 aged 72 and the other who died 23.5.1899 aged 75
was the widow of Patrick McQuade. So, if they came from Tyrone, it appears
that your ancestors both died before 1864. In which case there may be no
record of their deaths.



I also searched Griffiths Valuation (c 1860) for Dominick and Susan McQuade
(and variations) but did not find either. That also suggest both were dead
by that era.



Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have
additional information about where the family originate. Family Tree DNA
reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other company. That
obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You might want to try
them or, if you have already tested, you can transfer your results to them
for no fee.



The North of Ireland Family History Society is running an Ulster DNA
project in conjunction with FTDNA and can offer testing kits at a reduced
price.  http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the website).









Elwyn







On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 21:16, joAnn via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> I requested many months ago for help in finding my ancestors who came from
> Tyrone Co., Ireland.  I have never received one response.  Please help – am
> I supposed to go in another direction??  George H. McQuade is my great
> grandfather.  Here is all I know:
>
>
>
> *“George H. McQuade, Sr., aged 77 years, died at his home in Beaver
> Prairie, Clinton Co., Illinois.  Deceased was born in County Tyrone,
> Ireland, in 1829 and in 1846 (age 17) he emigrated to this country, making
> St. Louis his new home.  Here he married Mrs. Catherine Ramsey Montague. In
> 1873, he removed to Beaver Prairie, this county, where he engaged in
> farming.  *
>
>
>
> *George H. McQuade Sr. (11/18/1829-05/05/1906) was born in Tyrone County,
> Monaghan, Ireland.  His parents were:  Dominick (1800-   ) and Susan
> McQuade (1810 --). He came to America in 1846 and resided in St.
> Louis.  On 12/6/1855, he married (Mrs.) Catherine Ramsey Tague
> (1/26/1826-4/11/1900), born in Monagham, Ireland, the daughter of George &
> Margaret Ramsey. *
>
>
>
> *I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN GET.  THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH.*
>
>
>
> *JoAnn (McQuade) Varel*
>
> *var...@frontiernet.net *
>
>
>
> *
>
>
>
> *From:* CoTyroneList  *On
> Behalf Of *Jim McKane via CoTyroneList
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 1, 2019 7:59 AM
> *To:* CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
> *Cc:* Jim McKane 
> *Subject:* [CoTyroneMailingList] CTI Updates & Additons
>
>
>
> Hello to ALL CTI Supporters and Followers -
>
>
>
> WOW! What a start to December!
>
>
>
> Len has produced no less than FIVE more very interesting pages of records
> for everyone to enjoy! I will never be able to comprehend the numbers of
> hours he must put in on our behalf..
>
>
>
> Now I'm going to ask for a HUGE FAVOUR - we see lots of posting to the
> List where a Member is seeking help finding information on an ancestor BUT
> we VERY RARELY see postings announcing SUCCESS!
>
>
>
> It sure would give Len and myself more incentive to keep going forward if
> we heard about some successes.. OR are we spinning our wheels
> and there are no successes??? GRINS
>
>
>
> Also, an early Merry Christmas for those who celebrate it.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Jim
> ___
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Fw: Robert Hamilton and Margaret Mallon

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Cheryl,



The PRONI guide to church records suggests Ballymagrane Presbyterian has no
marriage records before 1845.  Possibly your DNA contact got the
information from some other source eg a newspaper report? I think you might
need to ask.





Elwyn

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 17:39, cheryl lyttle via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> Looking for some help. Maybe Len?
> Been searching for an ancestor and I just had a DNA connection with one.
> He lists the following and perhaps due to my excitement I can’t find it
>
> John Little marries Jane Bailey 8 April 1821
> Ballymagrane Presbyterian Church
>
> I can only find marriages from 1845.
>
> Did I look with the wrong eye? Lol
> Thank you Cheryl Lyttle
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
> --
> *From:* CoTyroneList  on behalf
> of Peggy Gordon via CoTyroneList 
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 24, 2019 2:46:49 PM
> *To:* cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> *Cc:* Peggy Gordon 
> *Subject:* [CoTyroneMailingList] Fw: Robert Hamilton and Margaret Mallon
>
> Marriage Robert Hamiton and Margaret Mallon
>
>
> I have searched extensively for the marriage of Robert Hamilton and
> Margaret Mallon, abt 1853, likely Kilsally. as that is where their children
> were born. I would  like to know the date of marriage as well as the father
> of each of them.
> Robert died Aug 25, 1896 and Margaret survived him. But I can't find her
> death nor do I find her on the 1901 census.
> thanks for your help
> Peggy
> ___
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Townlands, Civil Parishes, Baronies & Dioceses Maps of Co. Donegal, Ireland

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Susan,


You might find the historical maps on the PRONI website helpful:



https://apps.spatialni.gov.uk/PRONIApplication/



There’s a whole set of maps of Tyrone (and the rest of Northern Ireland)
with the oldest dating to 1832. You can switch between them to compare the
changes through the years.



There’s a button for the map viewer tour on the top right hand side of the
screen. Probably worth starting with it. It explains what all the buttons
do.




Elwyn

On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 23:26, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hello Susan,
>
> The set of Co Donegal maps created by Bob Hilchey are unique to that
> county only. Sadly, there is nothing remotely close to the detail they
> contain elsewhere (and freely available online):
> CIVIL PARISHES and TOWNLAND MAPS
> And maps of BARONIES  and ECCLESLIASTICAL divisions, and additionally,
> each parish map indicates which POOR LAW UNION they fall within. Bob
> Hilchey’s maps are essential for Co. Donegal research.
>
> As Jim advised, there is a complete set of free online parish maps
> (indicating each townland) for Co. Tyrone on CTI, but they follow a
> different format to that compiled by Bob Hilchey.
>
> Regards,
> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>
> Sent from Mail for
> Windows 10
>
> From: Susan Black via CoTyroneList >
> Sent: Saturday, 22 February 2020 1:30 PM
> To: Jim McKane via CoTyroneList
> Cc: Susan Black
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content -
> Townlands, Civil Parishes, Baronies & Dioceses Maps of Co. Donegal, Ireland
>
> Are there maps like these for Co. Tyrone?
>
> Susan
>
> On 2020-02-21 3:08 a.m., Jim McKane via CoTyroneList wrote:
> > Townlands, Civil Parishes, Baronies & Dioceses Maps of Co. Donegal,
> Ireland
> > 
> >
> > A complete set of maps for the whole of Co. Donegal.
> >
> > Enjoy
> > Jim McKane
> > Kitchener, Ontario
> > ___
> > CoTyroneList Mailing List
> > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
> > Change Your Preferences:
> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com
> > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
>
> ___
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Townlands, Civil Parishes, Baronies & Dioceses Maps of Co. Donegal, Ireland

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Gordon,

The maps on the Griffiths site are good, but they date from the 1870s. For
anyone interested in earlier maps the OS series on the PRONI site give more
options.

Sorry to hear that your ancestor's house has gone. That's quite common.
Apart from the obvious fact that many poor quality premises just
disintegrated, the other thing is that Ireland is not (as some seem to
hope) an open air museum. We aren't that sentimental about old houses and
if they are in the way, we knock them down. Modern farms require larger
barns and use bigger tractors. Greater space is required and redundant
buildings just get cleared away. Small damp thatched houses with an outside
toilet - however cute - aren't where we want to live. The only saving grace
is that most families take a photo of the old farmhouse before they
demolish it. Always ask if they have one of those. But if it was a
labourer's cottage, there probably won't be one.


Elwyn

On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 at 23:59, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> These OS maps are great, Elwyn, but I generally use the Griffith maps
> from mid-19thC, which are probably based on the OS maps anyway, but are
> in colour!!! and one can ghost the old onto the modern maps with the
> slider. I also find them slightly easier to use.
> http://askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=placeSearch
> I found the actual house that my ancestors lived in from Griffith and
> then used Google Earth to 'drive' along the virtual roads where they
> lived. Almost as good as being there! Sadly their farmhouse ain't there
> any more. :(
>
> Gordon
>
> On 23/02/2020 5:36 pm, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
> > Susan,
> >
> >
> > You might find the historical maps on the PRONI website helpful:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://apps.spatialni.gov.uk/PRONIApplication/
> >
> >
> >
> > There’s a whole set of maps of Tyrone (and the rest of Northern Ireland)
> > with the oldest dating to 1832. You can switch between them to compare
> the
> > changes through the years.
> >
> >
> >
> > There’s a button for the map viewer tour on the top right hand side of
> the
> > screen. Probably worth starting with it. It explains what all the buttons
> > do.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Elwyn
> >
> > On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 23:26, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList <
> > cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Susan,
> >>
> >> The set of Co Donegal maps created by Bob Hilchey are unique to that
> >> county only. Sadly, there is nothing remotely close to the detail they
> >> contain elsewhere (and freely available online):
> >> CIVIL PARISHES and TOWNLAND MAPS
> >> And maps of BARONIES  and ECCLESLIASTICAL divisions, and additionally,
> >> each parish map indicates which POOR LAW UNION they fall within. Bob
> >> Hilchey’s maps are essential for Co. Donegal research.
> >>
> >> As Jim advised, there is a complete set of free online parish maps
> >> (indicating each townland) for Co. Tyrone on CTI, but they follow a
> >> different format to that compiled by Bob Hilchey.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
> >>
> >> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> >> Windows 10
> >>
> >> From: Susan Black via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com
> >> Sent: Saturday, 22 February 2020 1:30 PM
> >> To: Jim McKane via CoTyroneList<mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com
> >
> >> Cc: Susan Black<mailto:se.o...@telus.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content -
> >> Townlands, Civil Parishes, Baronies & Dioceses Maps of Co. Donegal,
> Ireland
> >>
> >> Are there maps like these for Co. Tyrone?
> >>
> >> Susan
> >>
> >> On 2020-02-21 3:08 a.m., Jim McKane via CoTyroneList wrote:
> >>> Townlands, Civil Parishes, Baronies & Dioceses Maps of Co. Donegal,
> >> Ireland
> >>> <https://www.cotyroneireland.com/maps/donegal.html>
> >>>
> >>> A complete set of maps for the whole of Co. Donegal.
> >>>
> >>> Enjoy
> >>> Jim McKane
> >>> Kitchener, Ontario
> >>> ___
> >>> CoTyroneList Mailing List
> >>> Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
> >>> Change Your Preferences:
> >>
> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Fulton - Windy Hill, near Donemana

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Edward & Albert look to be separate people. Probate abstracts from the
PRONI wills site:



Fulton Edward Henry of Windyhill Donemana county Tyrone retired farmer died
27 March 1954 at the Waterside Hospital Londonderry Probate Londonderry 2
July to Albert Joseph Fulton farmer and John Wray Fulton merchant. Effects
£7997 1s. 6d.



Fulton, Albert Joseph of Windyhill Donemana county Tyrone farmer died 3
September 1957 at Waterside Hospital Londonderry Probate Londonderry 21
February to John Wray Fulton retired merchant. Effects £10251 5s. 7d.


On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 11:13, Dave Mitchell via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Dear All
>
>
>
> Anyone researching FULTON at WINDY HILL, Donagheady, co. Tyrone (near
> Donemana)?
>
>
>
> Quite by chance, I have come across newspaper entries for EDWARD FULTON,
> bachelor, of WINDY HILL (or possibly ALBERT JOSEPH FULTON), who died in
> 1957
> leaving a will that was challenged as a “death bed will” and disputed by no
> fewer than 14 cousins who also sought a slice of his £12,000 estate ….!
>
>
>
> All I have is a listing of some 12 newspaper mentions (1956 – 1960),
> unedited OCR search hits and showing fragments only.
>
>
>
> If anyone would like these notes, please contact me directly on
>  d...@mweb.co.za
>
>
>
> Warm regards
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Mitchell
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] death of Joshua Hamilton 1923

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Peggy,



Irishgenealogy only has records for Northern Ireland up to 31.12.1921. For
events after that, the only site with them is GRONI. I have looked and can
confirm that Joshua’s death is there, aged 88 (which of course is just the
informant’s guesstimate) and registered in Cookstown. If you want to view
the full certificate, you’ll need to pay the £2.50 fee.



Elwyn



On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 20:42, Peggy Gordon via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> I was trying to add this to my message about the baptism of Mary Jane
> Hamilton 1839  with brother Joshua but couldn't see how to do that. I found
> Joshua's death May 23,1923, in his 88th year, on British Newspaper Archive
> however I don't find the death on irishgenealogy.ie even if I omit first
> name and just use Hamilton. Joshua was being buried in family burying
> ground in Brigh. Now, to see if I can find records of his burial and
> parents and sisters, etc. in Brigh family burying ground. With great luck,
> his mother's maiden name might be mentioned and perhaps other siblings that
> I am unaware of.If Joshua is in his 88th year, is he already 88?
> Peggy
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] 1800s Croziers

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Martha,


Families often carried names forward from generation to generation. With
that in mind, I searched the 1901 Irish census for Ralph Crozier. There was
just one in the whole country. He lived in Magheralough in Tyrone. The
family was Church of Ireland (ie Anglican).



http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Trillick/Magheralough/1741214/



There are 2 Magheraloughs in Co. Tyrone. The one with this family is in the
parish of Kilskeery. Kilskeery Church of Ireland has records back to 1767.
You might want to search them to see if your family lived there. There’s a
copy in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast.



There was a Ralph Crozier farming in Magheralough in 1826 (and another
nearby in Carron).



https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/tithe_Kilskeery1826.htm



There was also a Ralph Crozier farming in the parish of Trory in Co.
Fermanagh. Their Church of Ireland baptism records start in 1796 (copy in
PRONI).



https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/trory.html



Elwyn

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 at 22:38, James McKane via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> HI Martha - there's a Ralph Crozier in the tithe list for 1828 which could
> be his father??
>
> I found him by using our Every Name Index.
>
> Good luck
> Jim
> Jim McKane
> Kitchener, Ontario
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:33 PM road runner via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
> > My ancestor, Ralph V. Crozier came to America @ 1818.  He was born
> > Christmas 1800.   I think his dad was also Ralph and had been a weaver.
> Any
> > suggestions  to go further with his Irish roots would be appreciated.  Im
> > lucky to have found a good bit after he came to America, and willing to
> > share.
> > Martha
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] I'm trying to find my great grandfather Felix John Quinn

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Lizanne,





I assume you are looking for John W McGarvey’s place of birth in Ireland?



Most RC parish records in Ireland are on-line these days, both on the nli
site and on Ancestry.  So if you have checked those sources and found
nothing then the likely explanation is probably that he was born in a
parish like where there are no records for the year he was born. There’s no
easy way round that.



As I suggested to Francesca, perhaps you might make a breakthrough with
DNA. If you match with someone who knows more about their ancestor’s
origins, you might narrow the place of birth that way.  Otherwise I can’t
suggest any others sources in Ireland that might provide you with any clues.



Do you know John’s parents names from his marriage or death certificate?  Or
a Naturalisation application? Perhaps his parents’ death certificates
record where in Ireland they were born?





Elwyn





On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 11:21, Lizanne Smith via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Elwyn,
> Thank you for your advice concerning records and date of birth in 19th
> century Ireland.  Attached is my great grandfather's
> Civil War pension affidavit of his age. My only other record is his
> immigration record as a passenger in 1851 listing him as 3 years old.
> Lizanne Smith
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:52 AM elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
> > As additional  information about the unreliability of dates of birth etc,
> > here’s a couple more examples which show the situation in the 1800s:
> >
> >
> >
> > Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister
> > living in the US. This extract from his book “The Chimney Corner
> revisited”
> > perhaps explains why people often had to guess their ages:
> >
> >
> >
> > *“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever
> > knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the
> > more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish
> > imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with
> > 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to
> prove
> > I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I
> > also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”*
> >
> >
> >
> > I have also attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI
> (the
> > public record office) in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in
> > 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal
> > certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of
> age.”
> > He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to
> within
> > 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension
> was
> > being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof
> of
> > age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life,
> > establishing his age accurately became relevant to him).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Elwyn
> >
> > On Fri, 8 May 2020 at 03:56, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList <
> > cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Re birth dates,
> > >
> > > In researching the family history, I have noticed, at least in the case
> > > of notable ancestors, that the date of death is often known precisely
> > > but birth dates are not - only years are available and even then one
> > > must be circumspect. Apparently one's birth was unimportant as infant
> > > survival rates were so low. Baptism gives a clue, but then may be long
> > > after the birth, from a few weeks or months to maybe 20 years (in one
> > > case)!
> > >
> > > Gordon
> > >
> > > On 7/05/2020 11:04 pm, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
> > > > Francesca,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As others have explained, Munterevlin/Munterdevlin is a general area
> up
> > > the
> > > > west side of Lough Neagh. Mainly in Counties Tyrone & Derry. You can
> > see
> > > > what RC parishes there are in the general area from the attached two
> > > maps:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/tyronerc.php#maps/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/derryrc.php#maps/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
&g

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

There’s similar confusion over the letter Z as it appears in surnames in
Ireland and Scotland. Gaelic doesn’t have the letter Y and scholars,
perhaps unwisely, decided to express that sound using the letter Z instead.
So the surname Dalziel is correctly pronounced Dee-Yell. (But sometimes now
spelled Dalyell). Menzies is pronounced Men us or Min us. McKenzie was
originally pronounced McKinney. Because of this rather confusing
arrangement, in many cases people have started pronouncing the names the
way they are spelled. So you can have two totally different pronunciations
of the same word or two quite different spellings of the same surname.



So don’t worry too much about the “correct” spelling of any surname, or why
a couple of letters may have disappeared over the years. Or whether it was
Mc or Mac. (It was originally neither. Early documents mostly use M’).


Elwyn

On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 10:42, Jim McKane via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer
>
> https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Jim McKane
> Kitchener, Ontario
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] I'm trying to find my great grandfather Felix John Quinn

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Francesca,



As others have explained, Munterevlin/Munterdevlin is a general area up the
west side of Lough Neagh. Mainly in Counties Tyrone & Derry. You can see
what RC parishes there are in the general area from the attached two maps:



https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/tyronerc.php#maps/



https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/derryrc.php#maps/



If you click on each parish you will see what records exist. A problem you
face is that not all parishes have records for 1850. For example, Ardtrea
has a gap in its baptisms from 1843 to 1854. So it’s possible that the
reason you have been unable to find your Felix is because there is no
record to find.


Bear in mind too that in the 1800s most Irish people didn’t celebrate
birthdays and often didn’t know exactly when they were born. If officialdom
later asked for a date of birth it wasn’t unknown for them to just make one
up. So the date you have may not be quite correct. Do look a year or two
either side of the information you have. And if you do find a possible
record it may only be the baptism date, not the date of birth. Not all
records in 1850 included date of birth.  With RC baptisms the baptism date
should be very close to the birth date but again some flexibility is
required.



Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have
additional information about where the family originate. Family Tree DNA
reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other company. That
obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You might want to try
them or, if you have already tested, you can transfer your results to them
for no fee.



The North of Ireland Family History Society is running an Ulster DNA
project in conjunction with FTDNA and can offer testing kits at a reduced
price.  http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the website).





Elwyn







On Thu, 7 May 2020 at 13:18, ECardwell via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> From memory, Munterevlin was the general name of quite a large area of
> north east County Tyrone,  Arboe (Ardboe) would be a parish within it. Lots
> of Quinns in that area.
>
> Evelyn Cardwell
>
> ⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​
>
> On 7 May 2020, 12:37, at 12:37, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
> >Hello again Francesca,
> >Jim McKane has suggested taking a look at
> >
> https://www.culturenorthernireland.org/article/1185/a-brief-history-of-ardboe
> > for a reference to Munterevlin.
> >
> >Place Names of Northern Ireland is essential for locating obsolete sub
> >denominations and long-forgotten placenames
> >http://www.placenamesni.org/resultdetails.php?entry=20934 and
> >Munterevlin is mentioned in Arboe parish in 1609 at the time of the
> >Plantation. Apparently mentioned in Ordnance Survey Memoirs c1835, but
> >not in either the Arboe tithe applotment Book (1826) or Griffiths
> >Valuation (c1860), so obviously declared obsolete and had fallen out of
> >use by that time. There are many Quinns recorded in the tithe book,
> >including several with the given name of Felix.
> >
> >So then went to the online Arboe RC registers of baptisms
> >https://www.cotyroneireland.com/churchrecord/arboe-rc3.html There are
> >three Felix Quinns recorded and their townland of residence, but none
> >born in 1850. Perhaps your forebear took the knowledge of an old native
> >place of birth, known only locally with him when he emigrated?
> >
> >Hope this helps………..second time lucky,
> >Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
> >
> >
> >Sent from Mail for
> >Windows 10
> >
> >From: Len Swindley
> >Sent: Thursday, 7 May 2020 8:29 PM
> >To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing
> >List
> >Cc: Francesca Piantadosi
> >Subject: RE: [CoTyroneMailingList] I'm trying to find my great
> >grandfather Felix John Quinn
> >
> >Hello Francesca,
> >
> >There is no location or townland within Co Tyrone known as Munterevlin.
> >Referring to the Alphabetical Index to the Townlands and Towns,
> >Parishes and Baronies of Ireland (compiled in 1851 and still current),
> >it is not recorded in any of the twenty-six counties, North or South.
> >How accurate do you believe your record to be?
> >
> >Regards,
> >Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
> >
> >Sent from Mail for
> >Windows 10
> >
> >From: Francesca Piantadosi via
> >CoTyroneList
> >Sent: Thursday, 7 May 2020 6:44 PM
> >To:
> >cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com
> >Cc: Francesca Piantadosi
> >Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] I'm trying to find my great grandfather
> >Felix John Quinn
> >
> >I’m trying to find my grandfather Felix John Quinn born in Munterevlin,
> >Ireland. I have his birthdate as April 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Place Names in County Donegal

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

David,

Try this site: https://www.logainm.ie/en/

Elwyn

On Thu, 7 May 2020 at 18:34, David Prater via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> There is a great "place name" website for Northern Ireland at
> Placenamesni.org, but it does not cover County Donegal.  Is there an
> equivalent web page covering County Donegal?
> Thank you!
> David Prater
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Rick,



The surname, the general location and the family denomination all point to
them being settlers who probably arrived in Ireland in the 1600s.



MacLysaght’s surnames of Ireland describes Morrison as  “an English name
numerous in Ulster.” The location ie Tyrone, is a county heavily settled by
Scots & English in that period, and the family denomination (Methodist in
1901) also points to them being incomers. (They would almost certainly have
been Church of Ireland – ie Anglican- in earlier times, prior to
Methodism’s arrival in Ireland).  So in effect you have 3 pointers to them
being of settler origins.



The Muster Rolls c 1630 show a number of Morrisons in Ireland, and one in
Tyrone, but none in the Barony of Omagh East (which includes Loughterush)
so that points to a post 1630 arrival in the Loughterush area, if not in
Ireland.



It’s very rare to find any documentation for the 1600s, unless you were an
Undertaker or major land owner, or had land forfeit after the 1641
rebellion.  The earliest likely records might be in the Registry of Deeds
which start around 1709. If the family registered a lease or other
significant document, that sometimes gives you a date. Failing that, church
records may help. Kilskeery Church of Ireland records start in 1767 so you
might find them there. For some people the tithe applotment records in the
late 1820s/early 1830s are often the earliest records to be found.



I searched the PRONI e-catalogue but see no mention there of Morrison in
Loughterush other than in the tithes in 1826. There were no comprehensive
records of when people first acquired land. For most 17th century settlers,
the first 150 years or so of their time in Ireland are lost in the mists of
time.



Elwyn

On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 03:06, rsmoll999 via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Peter  ... thanks for responding  ... the links you sent are not working
> for me. I'll do some more hunting for those sites.Sent from my Sprint
> Samsung Galaxy S9.
>  Original message From: Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> Date: 5/21/20  8:43 PM  (GMT-06:00) To:
> "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List"  Cc:
> Peter McKittrick  Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList]
> Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 A past Genealogical Society of
> Victoria (Australia) handout indicates that Morrison appears in Scottish
> names in Tyrone, 1610-1633 based on muster rolls and estate maps.Sources:
>Brian Orr, Plantation of Ireland and the Ulster Scots published
> on www.irishclans.com 
> Gwen Rawlings-Barry, The Ulster Plantation (1605-1697) published on
> www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com <
> http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/> (website not found).Peter
> McKittrick> On 22 May 2020, at 10:23 am, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:> > Rick, My guess is that they
> could have been part of the plantation of Ulster in the 17thC. I
> suspect(based on my surname) that my ancestors may have been part of that
> event too but have not been able to find any records of who arrived from
> where and when. Any help (thanks Len S. for your earlier help) would be
> appreciated. Gordon> > On 22/05/2020 3:14 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList
> wrote:>> My Morrison ancestors occupied a farm in the Loughterush townland
> (Kilskeery Parish) from at least the mid 1700s until 1970 when the last
> Morrison on the farm passed away (he was a bachelor), and the farm was sold
> at public auction. The earliest ancestor I have found records for was
> Edward Morrison, and the earliest reference to Loughterush was with the
> birth of a daughter of his in 1781.>> My question is: Is there a way to
> find out when the Morrisons first came to occupy the farm in Loughterush?>>
> Thank you for any help on this.>> >>   Rick Smoll>>
> ___>> CoTyroneList Mailing
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> South Australia.> Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] James Happer, Drumadd Townland

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Peggy,



Armalughey in the parish of Carnteel seems pretty likely. There were
several Happer families farming there in the 1827 tithes including a James.



https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/carnteel.html



By Griffiths Valuation in 1860 the surname was spelled Hopper. Likewise in
the 1901 census:



http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Ballygawley/Armalughey/1724855/
.





Elwyn

On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 18:42, Peggy Gordon via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hello,According to the obit of Margaret Jane Happer who died in Minnesota
> in 1885, her husband James had died in 1843 in Ireland. The Happers were
> reportedly from Drumadd Townland. However,this will is indexed on Proni,
> although no will still exists. The problem is that the townland is
> Annaloughy - has anyone heard of that? thanks for any help.PeggyPRONI
> Index : Pre-1858 Wills and Admons
> Sub-Index : Armagh Diocesan Administration Bonds
> Surname : Happer
> Forename : James
> Occupation : Farmer
> Town or Townland :   Annaloughy   [was this perhaps Armalughey?]
> Parish :
> County :
> Notes :
> Description :
> PRONI Ref :
> Date : 1843
>
>
> |  | Virus-free. www.avast.com  |
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Ancestry- Spite test

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

The Vikings presence in Ireland was from around 795AD to 1000AD. So
well over 1000 years ago. Most genealogical DNA tests don’t go back
that far, or anywhere near it. Just a few generations really. If you
have some DNA from that part of Europe it probably comes from some
other much more recent connection.  But these  ethnicity tests are
about as reliable as a horoscope. Take it as a bit of fun.


Elwyn


On 01/06/2020, Margaret Brown via CoTyroneList
 wrote:
> I got the 2% Norway heritage too.  The rest is Ireland and Scotland.  I
> wonder if they just factor that in when they see Irish or Scottish
> heritage?
>
>
> On May 31, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Don 1 via CoTyroneList
>  wrote:
>
> I did the spite test for Ancestry, and it came back, that I had a lot of
> Irish Ancestry in me, which I knew already. It also said I had 2% Norway
> heritage - I thought they made a mistake.Then I realized, when I was in
> Ireland, 3 years ago, the Vikings invaded Ireland. Donald Patrick Quigley-
> Winnipeg
>
> 
> From: Don 1
> Sent: May 31, 2020 6:23 PM
> To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
> Subject: age difference
>
> If I am searching for a James Quigley, and I find a spread of 7 to 15 years
> -would this be the person I am looking for?
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Peter,

LAP stands for “Land Act Purchase”. As far as I am aware, it was introduced
with the 1903 Land Act, often known as Wyndham’s Land Act, so you shouldn’t
see it in use before that year.  It provided the final piece of legislation
to make land ownership more reasonable in Ireland, especially for farmers.
It provided Government backed mortgages to finance the purchase of the land
and freehold, and there was also some sort of mechanism for bridging the
gap where a land owner and farmer couldn’t agree the price.



In the Valuation Revision books these purchases are marked with the letters
“L.A.P.” in purple ink, plus the relevant year is normally written in the
right hand column. The landlord’s name is deleted and the words “In fee”
inserted. In fee means you own the freehold.



Quoting from the Encyclopedia Britannica:



“At the close of the century, the Conservatives initiated a policy designed
to “kill Home Rule by kindness” by introducing constructive reforms in
Ireland. Their most important achievement was the Land Purchase Act
 of 1903, which
initiated the greatest social revolution in Ireland since the 17th century.
By providing generous inducements to landlords to sell their estates, the
act effected by government mediation the transfer of landownership to the
occupying tenants”.



Source:

https://www.britannica.com/place/Ireland/The-rise-of-Fenianism#ref316060





As I understand it, the widespread inability to buy their land was
something that galled many Irish farmers. (Landowners wanted the income
rather than the capital so they mostly didn’t want to sell, though you do
see the odd sale in the records). But for many farmers you got say a 30
year lease and spent half your life improving the farm, only for the land
owner to then put the rent up because the place was now worth more, thanks
mostly to your efforts. And if you didn’t accept the increase, you could be
required to leave.  No wonder many farmers went off to live in a country
where land was available for outright purchase (often with grants). As the
1800s progressed various piecemeal legislative changes were made, making it
slightly harder for landowners to hike up rents unreasonably. I don’t know
the precise details but latterly, in general, if a farmer had a longer
lease and had been paying his rent and abiding by the terms of the lease he
had an almost guaranteed right to renew, and there were statutory
limitations on increasing the rent. So it was a sort of security of tenure.
Not nearly as good as freehold, but certainly much more secure than the
arrangements in the 1600s and 1700s when it was fairly easy to evict
tenants at the end of their lease, and/or hike the rent up.







Elwyn

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 01:22, Peter McKittrick 
wrote:

> Thank you, Elwyn.
>
> Your explanation of “reps of” and background was very helpful. Obviously
> long term leases could be dealt with as any other asset, but what threw me
> was that I would have expected some more legal language (e.g. executor
> of……legal representative of…etc).
>
> So the lease I have been looking at would have been in name of and signed
> by Robert McKittrick and purely on an ex post basis, when the solicitors
> for the lessor drew up the sale prospectus for sale in 1872, they found
> that the lessee was deceased (1869) so they listed the Tenant as
> Representatives of Robert McKittrick.  In fact son John was Occupier in
> 1860 (Griffith) when Robert was still alive, so John would have probably
> occupied under a private arrangement with his father and ran the farm
> (probably mainly flax growing) paid the rates. Interestingly, looking more
> closely at the terms of the subject lease, there was a clause *against*
> assigning, mortgaging, under leasing or otherwise disposing of the
> interest, except by will, but  that obviously did not prevent occupation by
> a son. But yes, you would expect that “Reps of” could only operate under a
> will.
>
> Another interesting feature of the lease arrangement was the existence of
> a reversionary lease over part of the land involving a large (probably
> prohibitive) rent increase for that part of the land at the expiration of
> the main lease. The maps are only viewable on Find My Past in black and
> white and the land subject to the reversionary lease is bordered in yellow
> so it's not possible to easily identify the part involved and its
> significance.
>
> Later, from the Revision Books available at nidirect, John’s son Joseph
> inherited the lease or was at least occupier. As Elwyn states, things got
> better for Lessees as by a 1901 Revision Joseph held the land in fee (entry
> stamped L.A.P.-exact expansion of acronym yet to be found). I assume LAP
> indicates that Joseph took advantage of one or other of the attractive
> government purchase assistance schemes, probably one under which the money
> was lent over a long term, going by the date. Later schemes 

[CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Marion,



You discuss the introduction of wills as legalizing the process. Wills have
been around for a very long time and it’s perhaps worth mentioning that
your ancestors may well have had wills that detailed the various
inheritances you suspect just went through perhaps on the nod.  That
there’s no entry on the PRONI wills site doesn’t mean they didn't make a
will.



A little about probate law in Britain and Ireland.  There’s no requirement
to register a will anywhere and not all wills require probate, even today.
Probate is required if inheritance tax is due (used to be called estate
duty). It is also often required where the person has significant sums of
money in investments and bank accounts, because the financial institutions
usually won’t release the money without it.  But in the past lots of wills
didn’t require probate, especially if the assets were moveable or in joint
names. PRONI will only have a will or administration file if probate was
required.



Let’s say you were a farmer in Rabstown in the mid 1800s. You have a wife,
a son and daughter living with you, 2 sons in America, and your brother who
lives nearby. You make your will. It specifies:



Your wife gets a life interest in the farm

After her death your son is to inherit it

Your daughter is to get £2 as are your 2 sons in America

Your brother is to get your sword from the battle of Waterloo.

The residue goes to your son.

You appoint your son as executor.



When you die, there’s a farm worth £100 with some cows, feed etc, and a tin
with £25 above the mantle piece. No inheritance tax/estate duty is due.
Your son goes to the tin above the mantelpiece and gives £2 to his sister
and sends 2 x £2 to his brothers in America. He hands the sword to his
uncle. Job done. The will then gets put in a box and forgotten about till
someone throws it out 10 years later. No copy ever goes to PRONI.



A second point about wills is that you should not just search the PRONI
site but also the Principal Probate Registry in Dublin.



http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/home.jsp



When someone died and probate was needed, they had a choice of where to
apply. In what is now Northern Ireland there were 3 regional probate
offices ie Londonderry, Armagh & Belfast, but there were others scattered
around Ireland eg in Cork and Dublin. The majority of cases were dealt with
by the nearest office to where the deceased lived but some used Dublin.
Perhaps because the family had a lawyer there, or maybe because it was
easier to get to from where the executor lived. I can’t really say for
certain. So a small percentage of probate cases for Northern Ireland are in
the Dublin archives, and not in PRONI. Particularly for Fermanagh and parts
of Co Down but also Tyrone. There are 17,732 probate files for Co. Tyrone
in the Dublin records  (1858 – 1921) including 10 McCays.   Always a good
idea to check them. (You’ll find some are duplicates with the papers being
in PRONI too, but many are only in Dublin).



Hope this helps.







Elwyn
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Marion,



Sorry you can’t find Connell’s book. It is fairly old (1950) and may not be
on-line anywhere. I think I found a copy in the Linenhall Library in
Belfast and photocopied a couple of dozen pages. The book looks at Ireland
as a whole and I am not sure if every custom reported there was necessarily
represented in Tyrone, and especially by Ulster-Scots, but it’s obviously a
useful background on marriage practices in Ireland in general.



There are detailed references to arranged marriages but it is also clear
that many were not arranged. (Connell distinguishes between what he called
arranged and customary marriages).  Not every bride had a dowry. And there
were some that were perhaps half way between. “John Kerrigan, a Mayo
farmer, told the Poor Inquiry Commission that: “It is not always the
father’s fault that his children get married too soon; sometimes the father
suffers more than the child. I was a comfortable man, and had 4 cows and a
heifer, till my daughter got married, and played me a trick that a good
many girls have done before: she ran off with a young man and, after a
week’s sport, he sent her back without having married her. She never
stopped at me, saying that he wouldn’t take her without a fortune, until I
was forced to give her three of my cows, and money besides; moreover I had
to pay the priest.’” (Page 56).



My own view is that arranged marriages were mostly linked to retaining
property, and so were of great relevance to farmers but largely irrelevant
to labourers and others with few assets (ie the greater part of the
population).



What you say about your Urney relatives marrying other local farmers was I
think fairly common.  Until the arrival of the bicycle in rural Ireland in
the 1860s most travel, and consequently most courtship, was done on foot.
Whilst they were much fitter than most of us today, and could easily travel
15 or 20 miles a day, at the same time they were needed on the farm most of
the time and so courting someone who lived say 30 miles away was almost
impossible (save for folk whose occupations involved a bit of travel eg
soldiers, policemen, stonemasons etc). My wife comes from Co. Fermanagh.
Her ancestors all married locally and in a history of her parish (Galloon)
a local author said that that in the 1800s it was normal to marry within an
“an asses bark of where you lived.” I suppose an asses bark can be heard
for about half a mile or so. So you often married someone close to you. The
girl next door perhaps?  Just as today, family pressures in many households
would be to marry someone deemed suitable. So a farmer would want his
children to marry another farmer’s children and not a labourer’s. A Church
of Ireland – Presbyterian marriage wouldn't raise any eyebrows. A Church of
Ireland – RC marriage could do so. Some couples just ignored the
difficulties. For others it was a factor in their decision to emigrate.



In the 1800s there wasn’t a lot of subdivision of farms. They were mostly
pretty small and just wouldn’t be viable if divided out amongst several
sons, generation after generation.  So the farm usually went to the eldest
son, and the other sons were expected to make their own way in the world.
(Some did stay as labourers on bigger farms but many had to leave. There
was often no other work for them locally). The daughters were hopefully
going to be disposed of by marriage with perhaps one – often the youngest –
being retained to look after her parents in their old age (lucky her). See
*Note* below.



I have touched on Ireland’s problems in the 1800s. There were many. (One
wit has said that Ireland has too much history and should be given a
break.). Most contributed to emigration. I mentioned previously the massive
population explosion between 1741 and 1841. In addition, Ireland has very
few natural resources (no oil, coal, iron ore etc) and so did not benefit
from the industrial revolution in the 1800s, the way Scotland, England, the
US, Canada & Australia did, which created hundreds of thousands of
comparatively well-paid new jobs in new industries (coal mining, steel
making, railways, ship building etc). There simply weren’t jobs for all
those people in Ireland. In much of Ireland the only employment was
subsistence farming topped up in Ulster and one or two other areas with a
bit of linen weaving. And then the straw that broke the camel’s back, along
came the famine, numerous times throughout the 1800s. The worst period was
when the potato crop failed almost completely 3 years in a row in the late
1840s, and then partially several more years after that.



Other factors led to continued emigration, eg early mechanisation on farms.
With new machines to turn the soil and plant seed, farmers no longer needed
an army of agricultural labourers to help on the farm. So those jobs were
rapidly disappearing. Likewise mechanisation had led to linen factories
being set up in places like Belfast. These made home weaving uneconomic and
so also upset the 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Peter,



I have come across “buckle the beggar” but not buckleberry.  It looks to be
a term that must have come to Ulster with the Scots, as many of our local
words did. I have never heard it used in Ulster but it seems as though it
was at one time because I can see a couple of references on the net.



In the Scottish National Dictionary it says: *buckle-beggar*,
*buckle-the-beggars*, “one who marries others in a clandestine and
disorderly manner” (Sc. 1808 Jam.)



It reminds me a little of another form of marriage known as “handfasting.”
This was particularly common in the Scottish Borders in the 1500s & early
1600s, where there were very few Priests or Ministers due to the whole
place being basically lawless. Such clerics as there were usually had to
have a peel tower (similar to a bawn in Ulster) to retreat to if attacked.
So it was hard to get a Priest or a Minister to marry you. Quoting from
Godfrey Watsons’ book ”The Border Reivers[1] <#_ftn1>” (publ 1974) p 180:



 “..if a priest was perhaps available only once a year, a problem
inevitably arose for those who wished to get married out of season, as it
were. The answer was ‘handfasting.’ This was a custom whereby a couple
would live together till the book-a-bosom man could bless their union. The
arrangement was for a trial period of one year (unless the parson appeared
earlier), after which it became permanent. If, before then, one or other
wanted to bring the arrangement to an end, he or she must accept
responsibility for any children of the union, in which case they were still
regarded as legitimate. There is still in existence an old genealogy of the
Elliots of Lariston, which refers to “Simon of Benks who handfasted or took
for a trial a bastard daughter of the said Gibbie with the Golden Garters
on condition he should pay her a considerable tocher[2] <#_ftn2> in case he
was not pleased with her.” Normally handfasting required no dowry, and this
idea of making second hand goods more marriageable may well have been
restricted to the gentry, who appear to have handfasted in the same way as
anyone else.  John, Lord Maxwell, for instance was contracted thus to a
sister of the Earl of Angus.



Nobody in the Borders seems to have worried very much about children being
born out of wedlock, and there are countless examples of natural[3] <#_ftn3>
children figuring openly in men’s wills.”



Isn’t “Gibbie with the Golden Garters” a wonderful name?





Elwyn

--

[1] <#_ftnref1> Reiver = thief (robber)

[2] <#_ftnref2> dowry

[3] <#_ftnref3> illegitimate

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 13:39, Peter Sinclair 
wrote:

> I must thank Elwyn for his very interesting texts about marriage and
> children born out of wedlock (lovely term 'wedlock', with all it implies!).
> There is another term I have come across during my research into the
> Sinclair families in Cos. Armagh, Tyrone and Monaghan: 'buckle-the-beggar'
> or 'buckleberry' marriage. Apparently this was marrying after the birth of
> children and was accepted by the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic churches,
> but not by the Church of Ireland (presumably before 1845). If Elwyn has any
> more information about this I know I would be interested.
>
> Peter
>
>  please don't print this email unless you really need to
>
> -Original Message-
> From: CoTyroneList  On Behalf
> Of elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList
> Sent: 22 June 2020 22:49
> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
> Cc: elwyn soutter 
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
>
> Marion,
>
>
>
> Sorry you can’t find Connell’s book. It is fairly old (1950) and may not
> be on-line anywhere. I think I found a copy in the Linenhall Library in
> Belfast and photocopied a couple of dozen pages. The book looks at Ireland
> as a whole and I am not sure if every custom reported there was necessarily
> represented in Tyrone, and especially by Ulster-Scots, but it’s obviously a
> useful background on marriage practices in Ireland in general.
>
>
>
> There are detailed references to arranged marriages but it is also clear
> that many were not arranged. (Connell distinguishes between what he called
> arranged and customary marriages).  Not every bride had a dowry. And there
> were some that were perhaps half way between. “John Kerrigan, a Mayo
> farmer, told the Poor Inquiry Commission that: “It is not always the
> father’s fault that his children get married too soon; sometimes the father
> suffers more than the child. I was a comfortable man, and had 4 cows and a
> heifer, till my daughter got married, and played me a trick that a good
> many girls have done before: she ran off with a young man and, after a
> week’s sport, he sent her back without having married her. She never
> stopped at me, saying that he wouldn’t take her without a fort

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Gordon,



I am glad you are enjoying the book. It made me laugh.  I have a neighbour
who was brought up on a farm like that in Co. Down and he says it’s pretty
typical. He particularly recalled the arrival of the first tractor in the
late 1940s which he (as a young man) was wildly enthusiastic about. His
father however was very suspicious and preferred horses. Whenever the
tractor broke down, his father was quick to point out: ‘You don’t have that
problem with horses.” (Though actually you do). The horses were kept on
largely as pets till the end of their days because his father was so fond
of them.



Electricity was another controversial change. His father couldn’t see the
point of it at first. It was just as easy to light a paraffin lamp to milk
the cows, as flick a switch, was his view. However when someone invented
electric milking machines and it halved the time taken to milk the cows, he
suddenly came round to its uses. At first the only electricity on the farm
was in the milking shed. None in the house. No use for it there!





Elwyn

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 09:04, Marion via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Sorry Linda,
> That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety
> of academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing
> free accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was
> late when I sent the email.
> Regards Marion
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList
> Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07
> To: Marion via CoTyroneList
> Cc: Linda Nimer
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
>
> What is YSTOR?
> Linda
>
> On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
>  Elwyn
> Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me
> understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar
> topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them
> through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob
> was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading
> it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am
> never disappointed.
>
> Ron
> Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people
> tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my
> family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving
> into the past!
>
> I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and
> really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides.
> Regards Marion
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant delays
in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow or
ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or other
legal matters which delayed things.



As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for people
who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted probate
until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases.  So it took up to 32
years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of cases.
And until that was done the executors had control over lease renewal etc.
So any property transactions relating to those estates would have “reps of”
for many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new lease, as Peter
suggests. It was just that the owner was dead but the property had not yet
been passed on formally to the person who had inherited it. So the person
with temporary jurisdiction, and landlord, was the executor(s).



Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted in
1940.  Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a
whopping £25).



Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877
Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer.
Effects £25. Probate: 13 September 1940.



On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in the
probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the
Probate Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did
not fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were
overseas or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to
resolve things.







Elwyn

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:25, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hi Rick, you asked for an example of "Representatives of [Name] being
> listed in relation to tenancies. The example I’ve seen is when the Altmore
> Estate was auctioned in 1872 and the sale prospectus listed all the
> existing lease agreements including one over an Altmore property i.n.o.
> Robert McKittrick where the Tenants Names are recorded as "Representatives
> of Robert McKittrick". This document is available on subscription through
> Find My Past Landed Estates Court Rentals1850-1885. By 1860 and Griffith,
> Robert’s son John (don’t think he was the eldest) is in Occupation of the
> property and by 1869 Robert had died, but in 1872 the lease agreement with
> Reps of Robert McKittrick was still being relied upon.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter McKittrick
>
> > On 28 Jun 2020, at 8:33 am, Peter McKittrick 
> wrote:
> >
> > Rick, good topic. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the lessee is
> sometimes described as “Representatives of.“ May be to avoid having to
> draw up a new lease until it was absolutely necessary say when the lessor
> changed.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On 28 Jun 2020, at 6:20 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello all …I've been having difficulty finding information concerning
> how tenancy was passed along from generation to generation on the
> plantation farms. What was the legal framework for inheriting the lease on
> the farm that the family had been occupying … in our case for at least 150
> years prior to the land acts at the end of the 19th century? Hoping
> somebody might be able to steer me somewhere on this issue.
> >> Also, any insight on how a decision was made within a family regarding
> which son (or daughter) would assume responsibility for the lease?
> >> Thanks, as always …
> >> Rick Smoll
> >>
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: elwyn soutter 
> >> To: James McKane 
> >> Cc: Rick Smoll ; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>
> >> Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 8:21 pm
> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610
> - 1633
> >>
> >> Rick, Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile bo”meaning “cow land.”
> According to Philip Robinson - “The Plantation of Ulster”,a ballyboe was “A
> small Irish land division which, before the plantation,represented the
> territory within which several families worked the land.Although the real
> area of the ballyboe varied greatly with the quality of theland, it was
> assumed by the plantation surveyors to contain 60 acres ofprofitable land
> in most areas of north-west Ulster. Many modern townlands haveevolved from
> these ballyboes.” Not all land in Ireland was requisitionedby the Crown at
> the time of the Plantation. At least a third remained in thehands of local
> Irish landlords, normally provided they agreed to be loyal tothe Crown.  An
> obvious example would bethe Maguires who had lands in Fermanagh. Chunks of
> land were declared forfeitfollowing the 1641 uprising and reallocated.
> Details in the Down survey: http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php
> Robinson spends some time 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Peter,



Sorry if you feel I misinterpreted your words.  (You said: “may be to avoid
having to draw up a new lease until it was necessary.”)  Dodge wasn’t
intended in any pejorative way, simply as being expedient.





Elwyn

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:47, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Just in case my email didn’t go to the mailing list, I’ll repeat my
> response to Elwyn Souter: Elwyn, at no stage did I suggest it was a “dodge”
> thank you.
>
> Peter
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 29 Jun 2020, at 8:16 pm, Peter McKittrick 
> wrote:
> >
> > Elwyn, at no time did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >>> On 29 Jun 2020, at 7:24 pm, elwyn soutter 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >> 
> >> Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant
> delays in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow
> or ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or
> other legal matters which delayed things.
> >>
> >> As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for
> people who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted
> probate until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases.  So it took
> up to 32 years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of
> cases. And until that was done the executors had control over lease renewal
> etc. So any property transactions relating to those estates would have
> “reps of” for many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new lease, as
> Peter suggests. It was just that the owner was dead but the property had
> not yet been passed on formally to the person who had inherited it. So the
> person with temporary jurisdiction, and landlord, was the executor(s).
> >>
> >> Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted
> in 1940.  Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a
> whopping £25).
> >>
> >> Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877
> Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer.
> Effects £25. Probate: 13 September 1940.
> >>
> >> On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in
> the probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the
> Probate Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did
> not fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were
> overseas or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to
> resolve things.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Elwyn
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:25, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
> >>> Hi Rick, you asked for an example of "Representatives of [Name] being
> listed in relation to tenancies. The example I’ve seen is when the Altmore
> Estate was auctioned in 1872 and the sale prospectus listed all the
> existing lease agreements including one over an Altmore property i.n.o.
> Robert McKittrick where the Tenants Names are recorded as "Representatives
> of Robert McKittrick". This document is available on subscription through
> Find My Past Landed Estates Court Rentals1850-1885. By 1860 and Griffith,
> Robert’s son John (don’t think he was the eldest) is in Occupation of the
> property and by 1869 Robert had died, but in 1872 the lease agreement with
> Reps of Robert McKittrick was still being relied upon.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Peter McKittrick
> >>>
> >>> > On 28 Jun 2020, at 8:33 am, Peter McKittrick 
> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Rick, good topic. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the lessee is
> sometimes described as “Representatives of.“ May be to avoid having to
> draw up a new lease until it was absolutely necessary say when the lessor
> changed.
> >>> >
> >>> > Peter
> >>> >
> >>> > Sent from my iPhone
> >>> >
> >>> >> On 28 Jun 2020, at 6:20 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Hello all …I've been having difficulty finding information
> concerning how tenancy was passed along from generation to generation on
> the plantation farms. What was the legal framework for inheriting the lease
> on the farm that the family had been occupying … in our case for at least
> 150 years prior to the land acts at the end of the 19th century? Hoping
> somebody might be able to steer me somewhere on this issue.
> >>> >> Also, any insight on how a decision was made within a family
> regarding which son (or daughter) would assume responsibility for the lease?
> >>> >> Thanks, as always …
> >>> >> Rick Smoll
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -Original Message-
> >>> >> From: elwyn soutter 
> >>> >> To: James McKane 
> >>> >> Cc: Rick Smoll ; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing
> List 
> >>> >> Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 8:21 pm
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster
> 1610 - 1633
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Rick, Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Looking for info on

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Jeanette,

Thomas Taggart’s marriage in Glasgow in 1871 records that his parents were
William Taggart (farm labourer) and Ann Sharp and both were still alive at
that date.



Irish RC parish records on Ancestry have a record of a Letitia Taggart
baptised on 21.7.1846 to William Taggart & Ann Shearp in the parish of
Drumragh, Co Tyrone (Omagh). Those parish records only start in 1846, and
then there’s a gap 1847 to 1853 so if that’s your family and where Thomas
was born in 1851 there won't be a record of his baptism.



https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633038#page/5/mode/1up



Note that Letitia’s baptism record says the father was protestant. So a
mixed marriage.



I searched to see if I could find a marriage or death in Ireland for
Letitia Taggart but without success. She may have died before 1864 in which
case there will be no record, or she may have left Ireland.



Griffiths Valuation for 1860 only has 1 William Taggart in Drumgath. He had
a share in a house in Fountain Lane, Omagh. Given that his occupation in
1871 was stated to be a farm labourer, I’d wonder if that was the right
man, living in the middle of a town.



I looked for a possible death for William Taggart 1871 onwards and found
this one in 1884 in Castle Lane Omagh (aged 84), informant was his son
William.  Can’t say if it’s your family. Could be, but I'd need more
information to know.



https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06307/4808275.pdf



Did your Thomas have a daughter named Letitia by any chance? (Families
tended to repeat names so it might be a clue, especially with a lightly
unusual name like Letitia).





Can’t help you with James Griffen. Caldon might be Caledon but there’s no
James Griffen there in the 1860s in Griffiths.  Can you give us some dates
and other information to put this into context?





Elwyn

On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 21:09, jeanette molloy via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> James Griffen near Caldon looks like Emmaville
> Thomas Taggart 1851-1919 died Glasgow Scotland married to Ann McCulloch
> 1852-1901 death Glasgow Scotland. Connections to Pomeroy Co. Tyrone
>
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Rick,



I can’t point you to specific legislation, but all I can say is that all
the documentation I have ever seen points to a rented farm being heritable
the same as any other asset. The farmer was free to dispose of it as he
chose. What he was disposing of was the unexpired portion of the lease,
plus all the physical assets on the farm (seed, animals machinery etc).



Here’s a random example of a will taken from the PRONI wills site, for a
Tyrone farmer:



“I Robert Alexander of Altrest being of sound mind memory and understanding
to make publish and declare this my last will and testament in manner and
form following. That is to say I direct my executors at my death to sell my
farm of land in Altrest and all the stock, crop and chattels thereon……”



1st March 1880.



If you check the Valuation revision records for 1880, you will find that
Robert Alexander had plot 12a in Altrest which was a 56 acre farm rented
from Dalkeith Holmes. He also had 2 labourers cottages on the land which he
sublet.  Quite clearly from the wil and the Valuation records, he didn't
own the land, so what he was selling was the unexpired portion of that
lease.  If you think about it many modern flats and appartments are
similar. They are often on 100 or 1000 year leases, and can be sold on in
the same way as freehold property.



(I think in this particular case Robert had no children to leave the farm
to. Others mentioned in the will were his sister and some brothers, so
that’s probably why it was being sold rather than left to the next
generation. There was no next generation, but in other cases you will see
the famr left to the eldest son. The landowner had no say in the matter).



As far as I can see, the person who bought the farm merely had to inform
the landlord that they were now the tenant.  I see no evidence that the new
owner needed the landlord’s permission.



As the 1800s progressed there were several bits of land legislation that
gradually improved the security of tenure offered to most farmers who had a
lease. It became increasingly difficult to evict them, or raise their
rents, unless they failed to pay the rent or abide by certain other terms.
It wasn’t as good a freehold but by the 1890s it was close to it. So the
lease could be sold on in a fairly straightforward manner.  That’s my
interpretation and it certainly seems to have been what happened.





Elwyn





On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 14:23, Rick Smoll  wrote:

> Hello Elwyn
>
> Both you and Peter are addressing lease issues pertaining to the
> circumstances around the death of the landowner (which is interesting info
> for certain); I am wondering though if you have come across any information
> as to how the lease was legally passed on from generation to generation
> within a family under normal circumstances (in the case of my family for at
> least five generations). I've had no luck searching.
>
> Thanks again
>
> Rick Smoll
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elwyn soutter 
> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
> Cc: Rick Smoll ; Peter McKittrick <
> petermck...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2020 4:24 am
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies
>
> Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant
> delays in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow
> or ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or
> other legal matters which delayed things.
>
> As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for
> people who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted
> probate until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases.  So it took
> up to 32 years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of
> cases. And until that was done the executors had control over lease renewal
> etc. So any property transactions relating to those estates would have
> “reps of” for many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new lease, as
> Peter suggests. It was just that the owner was dead but the property had
> not yet been passed on formally to the person who had inherited it. So the
> person with temporary jurisdiction, and landlord, was the executor(s).
>
> Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted in
> 1940.  Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a
> whopping £25).
>
> Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877
> Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer.
> Effects £25. Probate: 13 September 1940.
>
> On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in
> the probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the
> Probate Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did
> not fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were
> overseas or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to
> resolve things.
>
>
>
> Elwyn
>
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Landed Proprietor question. Cty. Tyrone 1885

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

To me it meant he owned land. As an example, someone who owned a big
shooting estate would be a landed proprietor.



Occasionally occupations on marriage certificates can be a bit tongue in
cheek, and you sometimes see rather grandiose terms. A dustman becomes a
refuse disposal operative and so on. I have seen a bride described as  a
“gentlewoman” for her occupation, when until that day she had been a
servant.  If your family were just plain farmers, they may just have been
having a joke with “landed proprietor.”



 Elwyn



On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 07:09, MPGish via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Hello.In reviewing a marriage cert. of 1885 the Father of the Groom is
> described as 'Landed Proprietor.'My google search hasn't given me any real
> info.What does the term mean? The family was from Tamnaskenny, Parish of
> Kildress.Thank you for any info you can give on this term.Peggy Gish.
> Canada.
> ___
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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Marion,



I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a
hundred pages.



One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland
1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many
causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that
there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in
1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today).  No-one is entirely
certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell
also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently
the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know
these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential
increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children.



The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs
surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and
Protestants.  There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged
marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by
their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The
Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of
the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.”
(page 55).



But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each
other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that
marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness
of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people
towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions
and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry
gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early
marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57).



Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs.



Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry
between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in
Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down.  So couples eloped to Portpatrick
to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16,
and without parental consent.  (In England and Ireland parental consent was
required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off
to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between
England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to
get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland.
Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland,
going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think
of any other reason for marrying there:



http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0





The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group.  I did a course at Queens
University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The
lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and
the Ulster – Scots.  In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the
Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such
as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse
origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason
was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers
to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring
any women with them.  If they needed women then the answer was usually a
bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of
this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly
did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse
identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of
men and women.  They tended to marry each other and kept their separate
identity.  They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism
which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland
in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for
all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster –
Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each
other.  (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in
Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be
found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity
that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster-
Scots, rather than Irish.



You ask about illegitimacy and the churches attitude.  There was plenty of
illegitimacy around. One study I read suggested that about 1% of births
were illegitimate in the mid 1800s. There were local exceptions especially
if there was a workhouse in the area, and workhouse births distorted the
figures:

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Landed Proprietor followup. CoTyroneList Digest, Vol 664, Issue 1

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Griffiths Valuation lists John Watson with 3 plots in the townland,
totaling 50 acres, which he was renting from John Shaw. So he was a farmer
with a decent amount of land, but which he didn’t own.  He, or his son,
evidently saw that as being a landed proprietor.  Sounds grander than
farmer.


Elwyn

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 23:09, MPGish via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> Reply to, who asked:
> From: ECardwell What was the surname?
> The name was Rev. John Watson C. of I, (Rector of Charlemont, Cty. Armagh
> at the time) marriage in 1885, whose Father (John Watson born 1804 of
> Tamnaskinny(keeny), Kildress, Armagh), is listed as 'Landed
> Proprietor'. I've attached the cert., don't know if it will show up.Thank
> you, Peggy.
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:08:36 + (UTC)
> From: MPGish 
> To: 
> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Landed Proprietor question. Cty. Tyrone
> 1885
> Message-ID: <717010184.1068151.1592633316...@mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hello.In reviewing a marriage cert. of 1885 the Father of the Groom is
> described as 'Landed Proprietor.'My google search hasn't given me any real
> info.What does the term mean? The family was from?Tamnaskenny, Parish of
> Kildress.Thank you for any info you can give on this term.Peggy Gish.
> Canada.
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:40:18 +
> From: Bill Young 
> To: "cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com"
> 
> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Landed Proprietor question. Cty. Tyrone
> 1885
> Message-ID:
> <
> db7pr02mb50503e4bcbf9d41e28bf0b51a4...@db7pr02mb5050.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi
>
> I was puzzled and, like you, intrigued by the term, Landed Proprietor.
> The following is probably unrelated, but nevertheless interesting.
>
> https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Landed+proprietor#:~:text=26%20(Nov
> 
> .,use%20of%20the%20laboring%20peasants.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Bill
>
> Bill Young
> +41 76 391 6556 (WhatsApp)
> +44 74 2904 9955
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 07:29:15 +
> From: Robert Forrest 
> To: MPGish , CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List
> 
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Landed Proprietor question. Cty.
> Tyrone 1885
> Message-ID:
> <
> am7pr10mb3543cc53e090961456a85a92d5...@am7pr10mb3543.eurprd10.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> A Landed proprietor would be a landowner. Someone that has enough land to
> derive income from the proceeds of the land without having to farm.
> 
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 08:35:35 +0100
> From: elwyn soutter 
> To: MPGish , "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List"
> 
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Landed Proprietor question. Cty.
> Tyrone 1885
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> To me it meant he owned land. As an example, someone who owned a big
> shooting estate would be a landed proprietor.Occasionally occupations on
> marriage certificates can be a bit tongue in
> cheek, and you sometimes see rather grandiose terms. A dustman becomes a
> refuse disposal operative and so on. I have seen a bride described as  a
> ?gentlewoman? for her occupation, when until that day she had been a
> servant.  If your family were just plain farmers, they may just have been
> having a joke with ?landed proprietor.? Elwyn
>
>
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 07:09, MPGish via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello.In reviewing a marriage cert. of 1885 the Father of the Groom is
> > described as 'Landed Proprietor.'My google search hasn't given me any
> real
> > info.What does the term mean? The family was from Tamnaskenny, Parish of
> > Kildress.Thank you for any info you can give on this term.Peggy Gish.
> > Canada.
> > ___
> >--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:11:35 +0100
> From: ECardwell 
> To: MPGish ,Jim McKane via CoTyroneList
> 
> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Landed Proprietor question. Cty.
> Tyrone 1885
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> What was the surname?
>
> ?Get BlueMail for Android ?
>
> On 20 Jun 2020, 07:09, at 07:09, MPGish via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
> >Hello.In reviewing a marriage cert. of 1885 the Father of the Groom is
> >described as 'Landed Proprietor.'My google search hasn't given me any
> >real info.What does the term mean? The family was from?Tamnaskenny,
> >Parish of Kildress.Thank you for any info you can give on this
> >term.Peggy Gish. Canada.
> >___
> >CoTyroneList Mailing 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Rick,



Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile bo” meaning “cow land.” According
to Philip Robinson - “The Plantation of Ulster”, a ballyboe was “A small
Irish land division which, before the plantation, represented the territory
within which several families worked the land. Although the real area of
the ballyboe varied greatly with the quality of the land, it was assumed by
the plantation surveyors to contain 60 acres of profitable land in most
areas of north-west Ulster. Many modern townlands have evolved from these
ballyboes.”



Not all land in Ireland was requisitioned by the Crown at the time of the
Plantation. At least a third remained in the hands of local Irish
landlords, normally provided they agreed to be loyal to the Crown.  An
obvious example would be the Maguires who had lands in Fermanagh. Chunks of
land were declared forfeit following the 1641 uprising and
reallocated.  Details
in the Down survey:



http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php



Robinson spends some time discussing the origins of settler names in
Tyrone, and to what extent Scottish undertakers had Scots tenants, and
English undertakers had English tenants. The implication being that they
originated in their landlords respective estates. However there was
evidently a lot of mixing. For example on p122 he says:



The evidence of Scots settling outside their allocated baronies of Strabane
and Mountjoy is supplemented by a statement of Lord Audley’s in 1614 when
he claimed that his estate of Finagh and Rarone in Omagh barony had as many
Scots as English in it.



Although there is considerable degree of continuity between 1630 and 1666
in the distributional pattern of British settlement, and indeed in the
persistence of English and Scottish localities, the actual surnames on most
estates did change dramatically. This turnover of personnel cannot be
attributed simply to the ravages of the 1641 rebellion, for comparable
changes can be observed between 1622 and 1630. A high degree of tenant
mobility is a striking characteristic of plantation settlement, despite the
continuity of settlement patterns.”



He goes on to discuss colonial spread. “In 1622 the percentage of Scots on
any Tyrone estate was closely related to whether or not the estate was
Scottish owned, and only marginally related to the physical distance from
Londonderry as the natural entry point for Scottish settlers. However by
1630 the gap between the statistical significance of these two factors had
narrowed, and by 1666 it was the distance from Londonderry which was most
significant. This supports the model of colonization outlined above,
whereby the process of direct plantation, with subsequent internal
migration operated simultaneously with that of colonial spread. Furthermore
the contention that colonial spread became relatively more important than
direct plantation with time is also supported.”



(This continues for pages but you will hopefully get the general drift.  Many
settlers in Tyrone and particularly the Scots arrived via Londonderry and
moved across Tyrone. Some stayed put and some moved about. After 40 years
colonial spread meant that a significant percentage were no longer in the
place where they first settled).



Loughterush is in the barony of Omagh East. For me, the absence of
Morrisons in that part of Tyrone in the Muster Rolls (ie c 1630) strongly
suggests your ancestors must have there arrived after that.  There’s only 1
Morison in Tyrone in the Muster Rolls, a Robert Morsion in Strabane barony.
Perhaps your family were connected to him and moved south to Loughterush.
So colonial spread?



Your question is whether Audley brought the Morisons over? I doubt he
brought them over himself because he appears to have acquired those lands
from his uncle, Lord Castlehaven who was the original Undertaker. The
family were from Petersfield in Hampshire.  Morison is not a name
particularly common in that part of England so that would make me doubt
they were Castlehaven tenants in England. But I might be wrong.







Elwyn

On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:21, James McKane  wrote:

> A search of the CoTyroneIreland.com Tithe Applotment Index shows this entry
>
> MORRISON Edward Loughterush Sloy Manor, Kilskerry 1826
>
>
> Jim McKane
> Kitchener, Ontario
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:02 PM Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList <
> cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
>
>> I located a copy of the 1654-1656 Civil Survey that covers the townland
>> of Loughterush in Kilskeery Parish … this obviously does not list the
>> tenants names, only the owner … but there is interesting information
>> there that for me begs some questions that perhaps some of you could help
>> me with. I have attached the top page with the header that describes the
>> area and names the owner, and then the page that lists Laghterish (older
>> spelling or misspelling of Loughterush) among the townlands in his
>> possession.
>> Questions:1. Is there any reason to have confidence that Col. 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Elwyn's tutorial

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Katie,



Can I say thank you. 3 or 4 other folk on the board have also e-mailed me
privately to express similar sentiments. I am touched.



All I would say is that when I see a query that I think contains issues of
wider interest to other members of this board, I try to answer in a way
that will help them as well as the person who made the original enquiry.
So, for example, with the Morrison enquiry, the underlying issue was where
did my ancestors come from and when and how did they arrive in Ireland? I
doubt we will ever answer that specific enquiry fully, but there are
sources that suggest some probable answers.



I am not a genealogical expert. I am a retired civil servant with a
background in gathering and analyzing information. I do genealogy for fun
to keep my brain active. I live  near Belfast and do some research for
specific families but I haven’t done any academic genealogical research.
However I have been very lucky to have attended dozens of lectures by PRONI
experts and folk like Dr William Roulston (whose book on Researching
Scots-Irish ancestors no serious researcher in Tyrone should be without).  I
have had the privilege of working with him on various little projects and
have been able to pick his brains from time to time. I also rely heavily on
various academic books on Ulster in the 1600s and 1700s (which I usually
refer to in any response I give). Robinson’s Plantation of Ulster is one
example.



Many regular themes come up in posts on this board about how our ancestors
lived, what their lives were like, what they ate, what they wore, why they
came to Ireland (obviously not all are Plantation families but a huge
proportion of Tyrone families are), where they came from, why they left and
so on.  If your ancestor arrived in Ireland in the 1600s it will be rare to
answer that definitively – the records just don’t exist - but there are
many sources that give huge amounts of general information which I think
folk on this board might find interesting. So I feed it in, where I think
appropriate. Hope it works.







Elwyn







On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 at 18:02, Katie Green via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

> I’d like to add my thanks for this very informative lesson.
>
> Katie Green in Plain, WI, USA
> ___
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