Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Ok.  Seems the practical and useable tear drop RV with 2000 watts weighing a 
few hundred pounds would allow a trip of a hundred miles and charging in two 
days of sun. This would be individual cells with the roof totally encapsulated 
to protect the cells.   Thanks for the input.  There must be a better way.  
Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 31 Dec 2017 at 13:45, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> What will the future hold in 100 years? ... I am afraid it will look a lot 
> like 
> it did 100 years ago, but overlaid with many superficial technological 
> changes. 

You paint a fairly pessimistic view.  Cynic that I am, I don't much 
disagree.

One trend MAY affect EVs positively, though.  

We here in the US sometimes think that we're the only ones who matter to the 
world's automakers.  That might have almost been true 40 or 50 years ago. 
But today the fastest growing region for auto sales is Asia, especially 
China.  China REALLY needs to clean up its air, and it looks as if EVs are 
going to be a substantial part of their solution.  

They're not alone.  France and the UK plan to do away with ICEV sales by 
2040.  Germany and Netherlands want them gone from showrooms by 2030, and 
Germany is pushing for this to be an EU-wide policy.  Norway's aiming for 
2025, though they want to do it with incentives rather than an outright ban. 
The smallest of the Canary Islands, El Hierro, is already making 100% of its 
electricity from wind, and wants all their vehicles to be electric by 2020.

Now, I grant you, a lot of things can change in 2 years, or 12, or 22.  
Politics is unstable and unsettled everywhere these days.  That includes 
much of the EU.  China is also infamous for lax enforcement of its own 
environmental laws.

But if even some of these policies stand, factory EVs WILL be built.  Maybe 
they won't be built here in the US, and maybe not all (or none) of the EVs 
built elsewhere will make it to our shores and our showrooms.  The way the 
US is charging full speed ahead toward those icebergs you mention, it 
wouldn't surprise me at all to see most or all US EV sales discontinued or 
curtailed. But EVs will be made SOMEWHERE, and offered for sale somewhere 
too.

I think -- I HOPE -- that we might finally be approaching that tipping point 
you mention. It's just that it's probably not happening yet here in the US, 
and it may never.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

Sean Korb via EV wrote:

You can see this coming to fruition in 11 or 12 decades...
"It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future." -- 
(a Yogi Berra-ism)


New Years is a time for reflection, and considerations about the future. 
Personally, I think the future will be just like the past, with only a 
few superficial changes. The present is incredibly obstinate and 
persistent. The old man that caricatures the old year *does not die*. 
Instead, he just keeps going. He tells the new year's kid, "Shut up; 
you're too young, too inexperienced; you don't know what you're doing. 
The new year will still be run by me, just like it always has."


As a rule, things don't change until there is overwhelming pressure to 
force a change. For example, we had EVs 100 years ago; and we have them 
today. In both cases, they represent a tiny minority of the vehicles on 
the road.


But there are tipping points. Once in a while, we have an opportunity to 
look out ahead of the Titanic, see the iceberg, and actually change 
course *before* the disaster. It may be too late to completely avoid it; 
the ship may still hit; but perhaps won't be as badly damaged, and more 
people can be saved.


I don't think the EV movement has yet reached its tipping point. We're 
shouting; but people aren't listening. Too many people still buy cars 
based on style, and won't even consider an EV for their next purchase. 
EVs are still attacked not on their technical merits (they work), but on 
their social and esthetics (they're ugly, they're expensive, they can't 
refuel easily enough, they're not like my present car...) The auto and 
oil industries could still pull out, just like they did in 2000... and 
they *will* do so if it means more short-term profit.


What will the future hold in 100 years? I haven't a clue! I can't even 
guess what will happen in 2018. But I am afraid it will look a lot like 
it did 100 years ago, but overlaid with many superficial technological 
changes. We'll hit more icebergs, more Titanics will sink, but our 
erstwhile leaders will keep right on plowing ahead on the same old 
course, heedless of the looming disasters and opportunities being missed.

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all our 
deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory, and a 
sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[paul dove via EV]

Solar Freaking Roadways!
https://youtu.be/qlTA3rnpgzU

  From: Haudy Kazemi via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Haudy Kazemi 
 Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 11:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
   
How about we put solar cells on the road surface and either conductively or 
inductively transfer the energy to the car? :)

No wind problems this way. No large trailers needed either.

It would have localized shading by snow and rush hour, though, amongst other 
issues pointed out elsewhere for solar roadways.


On December 30, 2017 9:05:24 AM CST, clarke2 via EV  wrote:
>I don't think I would want a large flat plate trailer that was not
>heavy 
>enough to stay grounded in gusty winds.
>
>Dan
>
>Dan    520-834-4176    I10 and Twin Peaks
>
>On 12/29/2017 12:54 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:
>> If you're maximizing your 'efficiency' then why use plywood? Nobody
>that is
>> trying to increase strength and lower weight using plywood anymore,
>they use
>> Carbon Fiber. So spend a few extra $k and invest in a trailer that
>will weight
>> 10lbs to hold your 2kw array.
>>
>> Rush Dougherty
>> Tucson AZ 85719
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence
>Rhodes via
>> EV
>>> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:59 AM
>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>>>
>>> If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550
>5 inch
>> cells. 2000
>>> watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15
>mph on
>> level ground or charge
>>> you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, power  and speed. I
>would have
>> eyelets on each
>>> corner to tie it down in high winds. The whole DIY build would be
>plywood on a
>> light weight
>>> trailer.    Lawrence Rhodes
>>> https://youtu.be/dWxIbRXGSrs
>>> Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>>> ___
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>>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Lawrence Rhodes 
Date: Dec 31, 2017 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: EV Digest, Vol 62, Issue 39
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: 

> This wind / solar hybrid is real. However it helps to be on flats and hope 
> you don't hit a dust devil.
> Mana La, co-designed by James L. Amick, components built by Douglas J. Amick; 
> sponsored by John Paul Mitchell Systems for the first ever World Solar 
> Challenge cross-country race in Australia, 1987.  Last reference I saw for 
> wind hybrids was in the mid 90's.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
> Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Sean Korb via EV]

You can see this coming to fruition in 11 or 12 decades.  With adoption of
self driving cars, the need for safety features will wane.  Then we can
build cars with the driver laying supine or prone depending on preference
with every car being a fairly uniform 150 foot long 8 foot wide ground
craft.  Short haul trucks would rarely deposit themselves onto the personal
vehicles and frankly, few personal vehicles would even be used.  Most of
these would be short delivery robots providing predicted goods and services
directly to your door. To go see families and friends people would
generally use ground taxi craft for short trips to public transportation
since all arrivals and destinations would be preprogrammed and logistically
calculated. Ownership would be rare.

It sounds kind of amazing and beautiful.  And kind of grotesque if you
aren't much of a conformer or team player.  I might have been looking at
too many Syd Meade paintings.

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> paul dove via EV wrote:
>
>> The batteries are part of the car since it won't go without them.. so
>> 2300 lbs?
>> That's pretty light but not enough to go 217 miles on a charge.
>>
>> 26KWh / 217 = 120Wh/m  They had to have done something else.
>>
>>
> Lots of "something elses". Good aerodynamics. Low frontal area. Flush
> windows. An absolutely smooth flat bottom. No front grille. High pressure,
> low rolling resistance tires (small by modern standards). Brakes that don't
> drag. A motor and controller so efficient that they don't need a
> power-consuming liquid cooling system.
>
>
> --
> "Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
> trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN
> 
> 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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> /NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65 Suprang,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I take it youi're talking about the Sunrise?  I was thinking of the Force.


Yes, the Sunrise. The one I saw certainly looked like a Geo Metro transaxle. But 
I don't know what was inside it. Since they were pretty much hand built to 
order, it's also possible different cars used different setups. At least two 
different motors were used (GUX20 and GUX30).



Regardless, my point stands.  James Worden was (probably still is) obsessed
with efficiency.


Yes indeed. And he was *good* at it!


Certainly some of his fine-tuning, such as adding flat belly pans to his
EVs, was cheap to do and produced outstanding returns.  Junking the stock
Geo Metro transaxle for a pricey custom-made one might not have been as cost
effective, but I still admire him for his focus on efficiency.


Paul MacCready of Aerovironment had similar sentiments when they were designing 
the Impact. When asked what the "secret" was to such high performance, he 
replied that there was no secret... it was just a matter of paying attention to 
all the details.


--
I'm more interested in a world that works than one that sells. -- Paul MacCready
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Well those gusts of wind might actually help push him in the direction he was
going, so Lawrence could claim that he was also using wind power...

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of clarke2 via EV
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 8:05 AM
> To: Rush Dougherty via EV
> Cc: clarke2
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>
> I don't think I would want a large flat plate trailer that was not heavy
enough to stay grounded
> in gusty winds.
>
> Dan
>
> Dan 520-834-4176 I10 and Twin Peaks
>
> On 12/29/2017 12:54 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:
> > If you're maximizing your 'efficiency' then why use plywood? Nobody
> > that is trying to increase strength and lower weight using plywood
> > anymore, they use Carbon Fiber. So spend a few extra $k and invest in
> > a trailer that will weight 10lbs to hold your 2kw array.
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > Tucson AZ 85719
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence
> >> Rhodes via
> > EV
> >> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:59 AM
> >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> >>
> >> If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550
> >> 5 inch
> > cells. 2000
> >> watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15
> >> mph on
> > level ground or charge
> >> you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, power  and speed. I
> >> would have
> > eyelets on each
> >> corner to tie it down in high winds. The whole DIY build would be
> >> plywood on a
> > light weight
> >> trailer.Lawrence Rhodes
> >> https://youtu.be/dWxIbRXGSrs
> >> Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
> >>
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> >> http://www.avg.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Cor van de Water via EV]

You do not want to know what (passenger)trains are dumping on the
tracks...

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 11:20 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
> How about we put solar cells on the road surface and either 
> conductively or inductively transfer the energy to the car? :)
>
> No wind problems this way. No large trailers needed either.
>
> It would have localized shading by snow and rush hour, though, amongst
other issues pointed out elsewhere for solar roadways.

That's an interesting idea. What if the railroads installed PV panels
between the rails? That way, they never get driven on. The power they
produce can be fed to the rails to power the train.

It would not be difficult to have a "cleaner car" to clear the PV panels
of snow, ice, dust, or debris.

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all our
deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory, and a
sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lee Hart via EV wrote:
That's an interesting idea. What if the railroads installed PV panels 
between the rails? That way, they never get driven on. The power they 
produce can be fed to the rails to power the train.


It would not be difficult to have a "cleaner car" to clear the PV 
panels of snow, ice, dust, or debris.


PS: Trains *are* able to tow a trailer with enough roof area to produce 
all the power needed to run it!


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

How about we put solar cells on the road surface and either conductively or 
inductively transfer the energy to the car? :)

No wind problems this way. No large trailers needed either.

It would have localized shading by snow and rush hour, though, amongst other 
issues pointed out elsewhere for solar roadways.


That's an interesting idea. What if the railroads installed PV panels 
between the rails? That way, they never get driven on. The power they 
produce can be fed to the rails to power the train.


It would not be difficult to have a "cleaner car" to clear the PV panels 
of snow, ice, dust, or debris.


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

How about we put solar cells on the road surface and either conductively or 
inductively transfer the energy to the car? :)

No wind problems this way. No large trailers needed either.

It would have localized shading by snow and rush hour, though, amongst other 
issues pointed out elsewhere for solar roadways.


On December 30, 2017 9:05:24 AM CST, clarke2 via EV  wrote:
>I don't think I would want a large flat plate trailer that was not
>heavy 
>enough to stay grounded in gusty winds.
>
>Dan
>
>Dan 520-834-4176 I10 and Twin Peaks
>
>On 12/29/2017 12:54 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:
>> If you're maximizing your 'efficiency' then why use plywood? Nobody
>that is
>> trying to increase strength and lower weight using plywood anymore,
>they use
>> Carbon Fiber. So spend a few extra $k and invest in a trailer that
>will weight
>> 10lbs to hold your 2kw array.
>>
>> Rush Dougherty
>> Tucson AZ 85719
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence
>Rhodes via
>> EV
>>> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:59 AM
>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>>>
>>> If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550
>5 inch
>> cells. 2000
>>> watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15
>mph on
>> level ground or charge
>>> you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, power  and speed. I
>would have
>> eyelets on each
>>> corner to tie it down in high winds. The whole DIY build would be
>plywood on a
>> light weight
>>> trailer.Lawrence Rhodes
>>> https://youtu.be/dWxIbRXGSrs
>>> Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>>> ___
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>>> http://www.avg.com
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[clarke2 via EV]

I don't think I would want a large flat plate trailer that was not heavy 
enough to stay grounded in gusty winds.


Dan

Dan 520-834-4176 I10 and Twin Peaks

On 12/29/2017 12:54 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:

If you're maximizing your 'efficiency' then why use plywood? Nobody that is
trying to increase strength and lower weight using plywood anymore, they use
Carbon Fiber. So spend a few extra $k and invest in a trailer that will weight
10lbs to hold your 2kw array.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719



-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via

EV

Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:59 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550 5 inch

cells. 2000

watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15 mph on

level ground or charge

you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, power  and speed. I would have

eyelets on each

corner to tie it down in high winds. The whole DIY build would be plywood on a

light weight

trailer.Lawrence Rhodes
https://youtu.be/dWxIbRXGSrs
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)

[robert winfield via EV]

 in case, or not, please remember the guy who drove the "Solar Taxi" 40,000+ km 
around the world. a small 2 seater EV, towing about a 30ft+ (~9-10m) trailor 
with PV panels and a single heated battery.


On Friday, December 29, 2017, 10:42:02 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 SO much negativity on this list towards someone that just asked a simple 
question, and acknowledged the challenges and issues up front.
Personally, I applaud the initiative and willingness to tilt at technological, 
economic, and other assorted windmills.

As my Tai Kwon Do instructor used to say,"impossible today, possible tomorrow."

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> I agree 100%.
> Folks forget that it takes significant energy to tow even a small trailer. 
> Much more than one would think. Probably more energy than the panels produce, 
> especially at highway speeds.
> 
> Best to leave them on the roof of your house, or put them on a "solar shed" 
> for your car to park under at work.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
> On 12/29/2017 8:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
>>> maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.
>> 
>> Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
>> tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.
>> 
>> The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
>> watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
>> surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
>> less practical.
>> 
>> ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
>> prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
>> is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
>> summer day.
>> 
>> So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.
>> 
>> The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
>> parked at camping and Ham radio events.
>> 
>> Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
>> http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>> 
>> Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
>> spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
>> does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
>> time while parked.
>> 
>> Bob, WB4PRR
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Marc de Piolenc via EV]

Okay, so with 12.2 kW at 55 mph, he ONLY needs about 600 square meters 
of PV area to recharge on the run. Still impractically big, nicht wahr?


Marc de Piolenc

On 12/29/2017 2:44 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Marc,
Iam afraid you are not making the Leaf specification situation better.
When Lawrence says he has a 30kW battery, he means 30 kWh.
That is a 2016 Leaf with the improved battery (normal was 24 kWh).
All Leafs have a 90 kW rating IIRC, meaning that they can accelerate
with the
motor producing up to 90kW of power.
Standard freeway driving takes about 15kW, Lawrence is apparently
capable of using only 12.2 kW while mainining 55 MPH on the freeway
by doing 4.5 mi/kWh.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

What does work is an 850 pound vehicle with a CD of .16 a 15 kw battery, 1.5 kw 
solar panel.  The Stella, Stella Lux & Stella Vie follow this format with 
Stella Vie having reduced panel and increased aerodynamics.  Stella Lux was so 
successful the rules were changed to slow them down.  With modern manufacturing 
technology I am surprised someone hasn't built freeway capable vehicles like 
these.  They hold up to 5 passengers, have cup holders and trunks.  I would 
love to have one.  I am just too lazy to build one.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
On Dec 29, 2017 1:11 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
>
> Send EV mailing list submissions to
> ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> Also, please be careful not to append the entire digest to your reply. Many 
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> bottom of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.
>
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Solar trailer (Haudy Kazemi)
>    2. Re: Solar trailer (EVDL Administrator)
>    3. Re: Solar trailer (EVDL Administrator)
>    4. Re: Solar trailer calculation (EVDL Administrator)
>    5. Re: Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste) (Robert Bruninga)
>    6. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lawrence Rhodes)
>    7. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lee Hart)
>    8. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Robert Bruninga)
>    9. Re: Solar trailer (Haudy Kazemi)
>   10. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lawrence Rhodes)
>   11. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lee Hart)
>   12. Re: Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste) (Bill Dube)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 01:43:35 -0600
> From: Haudy Kazemi 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List , ROBERT via
> EV 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
> Message-ID: <70e49f92-e51b-4ed6-b697-6734ef673...@umn.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Leaf power level demands at 55 mph are easily 4 mi/kWh or 250 Wh/mi (or 13.75 
> kWh/55 miles at 55 mph).
>
> It would be awesome if Leaf energy consumption was as low as you mentioned 
> but most owner experiences indicate otherwise. With your numbers a Leaf could 
> easily do 150 miles. Many owners get 40-60 miles in older Leafs and 80-100 
> miles in newer 30 kWh models.
>
> 2011-2017 Leaf motor is rated at 80 kW power.
>
>
>
> On December 28, 2017 11:31:41 PM CST, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
> >What? To maintain a small car like a Leaf at 55 MPH only requires about
> >10 - 12 HP.  This is only 7.5 KW (10HP) - 8.9 KW (12HP).  The battery
> >in the Leaf is rated at 30 KW-Hr.  At 55 MPH it does not require all
> >the power in the battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9
> >KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.  A solar panel system that could replenish
> >this energy plus conversion losses would keep the car going and the
> >battery level at a its current level of charge because the solar panel
> >system would run the car.
> >
> >
> >
> >From: EV  on behalf of Marc de Piolenc via
> >EV 
> >Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:39 PM
> >To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >Cc: Marc de Piolenc
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
> >
> >You're getting power and energy mixed up.
> >Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
> >it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
> >It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
> >not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with
> >its
> >power rating and speed.
> >To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
> >array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency,
> >receiving
> >100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
> >photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.
> >
> >It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
> >while driving.
> >
> >On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
> >to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
> >worthwhile, depending on your application.

Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 Dec 2017 at 10:02, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> Not quite; he kept the Geo transaxle, but "gutted" it so all it had was 2nd
> gear. It then ran lighter weight oil (not the usual 90w gear lube).

I take it youi're talking about the Sunrise?  I was thinking of the Force. 

I'd be surprised if Worden used the Geo / Suzuki transaxle in the Sunrise, 
rather than the more efficient Force transaxle.  However, I'm sure you know 
more about that than I do.

Solectria / Brusa designed a least 2 custom transaxles that were used in the 
Force.  The AT1000 was driven by a cogged belt and was used until (IIRC) 
around 1996.  The belt was noisy, so they built the AT600.  It was gear 
driven directly from the motor, and was normally sold as a unit with the 
motor.

In the early 1990s, NPR interviewed a Solectria rep (I don't recall who) for 
a feature about the Force.  Unfortunately, I wasn't able to grab a dub of 
the program when I heard it, so I have to go on memory.  They actually drove 
the Force.  Maybe the interviewer commented on the lack of a gearshift, I 
don't recall, but I do quite clearly remember the Solectria rep saying "we 
do remove the [factory] transmission."

That said, a small number of early Forces were built using the Geo / Suzuki 
factory manual gearbox and a rather underpowered BLDC motor.  I think that 
Solectria eventually upgraded most or all of them to induction motors and 
the in-house transaxles, but there may be a scant few, still scooting around 
out there on the roads.

Regardless, my point stands.  James Worden was (probably still is) obsessed 
with efficiency.  

Certainly some of his fine-tuning, such as adding flat belly pans to his 
EVs, was cheap to do and produced outstanding returns.  Junking the stock 
Geo Metro transaxle for a pricey custom-made one might not have been as cost 
effective, but I still admire him for his focus on efficiency.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 Dec 2017 at 15:37, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> With more efficient panels that length is reduced to 60 ish feet.

Good luck buying those hyper-efficient PV panels without breaking into Fort 
Knox!  

If you can afford that kind of money, though, why not book a flight on 
Musk's SpaceX?  Just reach out and snare an old, dark, disused comm 
satellite or two as you sail by. :-)

Even if you could afford the PV, 60 feet (longer than a semi trailer) is 2.5 
times the length of a nice-sized US 2-car garage.  Where are you going to 
park such a trailer? On the street?  

I'm really starting to wonder if you're just trolling us.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

SO much negativity on this list towards someone that just asked a simple 
question, and acknowledged the challenges and issues up front.
Personally, I applaud the initiative and willingness to tilt at technological, 
economic, and other assorted windmills.

As my Tai Kwon Do instructor used to say,"impossible today, possible tomorrow."

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> I agree 100%.
> Folks forget that it takes significant energy to tow even a small trailer. 
> Much more than one would think. Probably more energy than the panels produce, 
> especially at highway speeds.
> 
> Best to leave them on the roof of your house, or put them on a "solar shed" 
> for your car to park under at work.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
> On 12/29/2017 8:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
>>> maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.
>> 
>> Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
>> tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.
>> 
>> The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
>> watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
>> surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
>> less practical.
>> 
>> ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
>> prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
>> is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
>> summer day.
>> 
>> So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.
>> 
>> The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
>> parked at camping and Ham radio events.
>> 
>> Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
>> http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>> 
>> Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
>> spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
>> does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
>> time while parked.
>> 
>> Bob, WB4PRR
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:

If you're maximizing your 'efficiency' then why use plywood? Nobody that is
trying to increase strength and lower weight using plywood anymore, they use
Carbon Fiber. So spend a few extra $k and invest in a trailer that will weight
10lbs to hold your 2kw array.



Quality plywood has a pretty good strength-to-weight ratio, and it's 
easy to work with. It's kind of a natural composite.


Carbon fiber is stronger, but also brittle, expensive and harder to work 
with. Whether it makes sense depends on your budget, the design of the 
trailer, and how rigid a support the PV panels need. With a huge 
lightweight trailer, I suspect you'd want to avoid glass panels in favor 
of something a lot more flexible, in which case plywood might work OK.


But overall, I still think I'd avoid a trailer, and put them on the 
vehicle itself.


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Small lightly loaded trailers with little wind resistance can add 50-80 
Wh/mile. Taller/heavier trailers can double vehicle energy consumption.



On December 29, 2017 2:20:20 PM CST, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>I agree 100%.
>Folks forget that it takes significant energy to tow even a small 
>trailer. Much more than one would think. Probably more energy than the 
>panels produce, especially at highway speeds.
>
>Best to leave them on the roof of your house, or put them on a "solar 
>shed" for your car to park under at work.
>
>Bill D.
>
>On 12/29/2017 8:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand,
>or
>>> maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.
>>
>> Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two
>priuses.  I
>> tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.
>>
>> The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much
>per
>> watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES
>more
>> surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand
>times
>> less practical.
>>
>> ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts)
>behind my
>> prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG. 
>Meanwhile it
>> is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on
>the best
>> summer day.
>>
>> So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.
>>
>> The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field
>while
>> parked at camping and Ham radio events.
>>
>> Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and
>trailer.
>> http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>>
>> Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time
>and
>> spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home
>grid-tied,
>> does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99%
>of the
>> time while parked.
>>
>> Bob, WB4PRR
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

If you're maximizing your 'efficiency' then why use plywood? Nobody that is
trying to increase strength and lower weight using plywood anymore, they use
Carbon Fiber. So spend a few extra $k and invest in a trailer that will weight
10lbs to hold your 2kw array.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via
EV
> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:59 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>
> If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550 5 inch
cells. 2000
> watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15 mph on
level ground or charge
> you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, power  and speed. I would have
eyelets on each
> corner to tie it down in high winds. The whole DIY build would be plywood on a
light weight
> trailer.Lawrence Rhodes
> https://youtu.be/dWxIbRXGSrs
> Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)

[Bill Dube via EV]

I agree 100%.
Folks forget that it takes significant energy to tow even a small 
trailer. Much more than one would think. Probably more energy than the 
panels produce, especially at highway speeds.


Best to leave them on the roof of your house, or put them on a "solar 
shed" for your car to park under at work.


Bill D.

On 12/29/2017 8:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.


Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.

The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
less practical.

ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
summer day.

So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.

The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
parked at camping and Ham radio events.

Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html

Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
time while parked.

Bob, WB4PRR


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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550 5 inch 
cells. 2000 watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15 
mph on level ground or charge you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, 
power  and speed. I would have eyelets on each corner to tie it down in high 
winds. The whole DIY build would be plywood on a light weight trailer.


When you're aiming for efficiency, I think a trailer is a liability. It 
would be better to shape the vehicle itself to have as much roof area as 
possible, and use as little energy as possible. Essentially what you see 
in cars like Stella, or the solar raycers.


The vehicle can also be specialized for your particular situation. How 
far do you drive in a day? Maybe you can size the PV panels and 
batteries so it can work for you with little or no grid charging. Maybe 
the PV panels can unfold when parked, to significantly increase their area.


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550 5 inch 
cells. 2000 watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15 
mph on level ground or charge you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, 
power  and speed. I would have eyelets on each corner to tie it down in high 
winds. The whole DIY build would be plywood on a light weight trailer.
Lawrence Rhodes
https://youtu.be/dWxIbRXGSrs
Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Yes the units cancel. I brought the units along anyway to make the parallel to 
my base numbers more obvious.

Also, gen 1 Leaf curb weight is around 3300 lbs; in comparison a gen 3 Prius is 
about 3050 lbs and a Model S is about 4500-4900 lbs depending on pack capacity.


On December 29, 2017 2:55:32 AM CST, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
>On 29 Dec 2017 at 1:43, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>
>> 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph) 
>
>That might be accurate, but to me it seems like a convoluted way to
>state 
>the power required.  The miles and the hours cancel out, making it
>13.75 kW.
>
>My own admittedly limited experience is that a ~2500lb conversion EV
>can 
>maintain 55mph with an average power of around 10kW.  I know of some
>fairly 
>efficient conversions closer to 2000lb that can sustain 45mph at around
>
>6.5kW.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> With more efficient panels that length is reduced to 60 ish feet.

But the cost to double efficiency from 18% to 36% costs ONE THOUSAND times
more.
and ALWAYS WILL.  Since 1970, in the same time since Silcon cells have gone
down in cost by 100 to one, the cost of higher efficiency cells has only
gone UP by ten to one.

The difference is now 1000 to one. and DIVERGING not getting closer.  THe
raeson is that the space industry will pay ANYTHING for a few more watts.
The home owner wont pay a dime more..

bob, WB4APR

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> With more efficient panels that length is reduced to 60 ish feet.
> Lawrence Rhodes
>
>   From: Brett Davis 
>  To: Lawrence Rhodes ; Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List 
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 3:10 PM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>
> The consumption rate is 12.2 kWh plus losses.
> So a 15kW panel should do it? (Is this right? )
> Some quick googling suggests 100-110 square meters. 1100 sq ft or so.  8'
> wide and 130' long.
> YMMV
> Brett
> On Dec 27, 2017 3:48 PM, "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
> miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to
> know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.  Now
> don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the formula for
> figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
> variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
> hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed for
> continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be about 1 watts.
> I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to
> build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge while driving.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

[Sunrise efficiency] Also a light, efficient transaxle.  Even the Geo Metro
factory transaxle was too high in friction for his taste, so Worden chucked
it and built something better.


Not quite; he kept the Geo transaxle, but "gutted" it so all it had was 2nd 
gear. It then ran lighter weight oil (not the usual 90w gear lube).



That's what James Worden was all about.  He obsessively tuned efficiency in
his EVs.  That's why he routinely won the Tour de Sol, and also part of why
his cars were too expensive to ever sell well.


That's him! Efficiency was his goal; and he was good at it achieving it.

The cars were expensive simply because they were hand-made in such low 
quantities. The efficiency enhancements added little to their cost, but helped 
them sell better. So they were probably a step in the right direction.


I think Worden saw the GM EV1 as his real competition. It was another 
exceptional EV that was designed from the ground up for efficiency. Neither car 
was the "same old thing" -- an EV conversion of a standard ICE vehicle, with an 
old forklift motor and off-the-shelf batteries. Instead, they showed us what an 
EV can really do if designed right from the very beginning.


I think the genius of Bob Rice was to realize that a) scratch-built EVs really 
*can* be built cheaper and simpler than ICEs, and b) Worden's improvements could 
be applied to *any* EV that was built from scratch.

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
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and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

With more efficient panels that length is reduced to 60 ish feet.  Lawrence 
Rhodes

  From: Brett Davis 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  
 Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 3:10 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
   
The consumption rate is 12.2 kWh plus losses. 
So a 15kW panel should do it? (Is this right? )
Some quick googling suggests 100-110 square meters. 1100 sq ft or so.  8' wide 
and 130' long. 
YMMV
Brett 
On Dec 27, 2017 3:48 PM, "Lawrence Rhodes via EV"  wrote:

Hi all,
My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to know is what 
size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.  Now don't tell me it 
can't be done.  I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.  My puny 
brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt 
system would charge my car in 10 hours.  I would just like to know the numbers 
of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would 
be about 1 watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence 
Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could 
charge while driving.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

>
> Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
> maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.


Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.

The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
less practical.

ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
summer day.

So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.

The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
parked at camping and Ham radio events.

Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html

Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
time while parked.

Bob, WB4PRR
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 28 Dec 2017 at 18:31, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> Lots of "something elses".  Good aerodynamics. Low frontal area. Flush
> windows. An absolutely smooth flat bottom. No front grille. High
> pressure, low rolling resistance tires (small by modern standards).
> Brakes that don't drag. A motor and controller so efficient that they
> don't need a power-consuming liquid cooling system.  

Also a light, efficient transaxle.  Even the Geo Metro factory transaxle was 
too high in friction for his taste, so Worden chucked it and built something 
better.  There may be other EV conversion business that went this far, but I 
don't know of any.

That's what James Worden was all about.  He obsessively tuned efficiency in 
his EVs.  That's why he routinely won the Tour de Sol, and also part of why 
his cars were too expensive to ever sell well.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 Dec 2017 at 5:31, someone wrote:

>  At 55 MPH it does not require all the power in the
> battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9 KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH. 

You're joking here, yes?  I'm sure you know that power isn't measured in 
kWh. 

I'm not so sure that we should joke about this carelessness and confusion 
between watt-hours and watts.  It doesn't make us look good.

I also can't imagine that a Leaf battery's power is limited to only 30kW 
(assuming that's what you really mean).  That would make for some pretty 
feeble acceleration.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 Dec 2017 at 1:43, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

> 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph) 

That might be accurate, but to me it seems like a convoluted way to state 
the power required.  The miles and the hours cancel out, making it 13.75 kW.

My own admittedly limited experience is that a ~2500lb conversion EV can 
maintain 55mph with an average power of around 10kW.  I know of some fairly 
efficient conversions closer to 2000lb that can sustain 45mph at around 
6.5kW.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Leaf power level demands at 55 mph are easily 4 mi/kWh or 250 Wh/mi (or 13.75 
kWh/55 miles at 55 mph).

It would be awesome if Leaf energy consumption was as low as you mentioned but 
most owner experiences indicate otherwise. With your numbers a Leaf could 
easily do 150 miles. Many owners get 40-60 miles in older Leafs and 80-100 
miles in newer 30 kWh models.

2011-2017 Leaf motor is rated at 80 kW power.



On December 28, 2017 11:31:41 PM CST, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
>What? To maintain a small car like a Leaf at 55 MPH only requires about
>10 - 12 HP.  This is only 7.5 KW (10HP) - 8.9 KW (12HP).  The battery
>in the Leaf is rated at 30 KW-Hr.  At 55 MPH it does not require all
>the power in the battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9
>KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.  A solar panel system that could replenish
>this energy plus conversion losses would keep the car going and the
>battery level at a its current level of charge because the solar panel
>system would run the car.
>
>
>
>From: EV  on behalf of Marc de Piolenc via
>EV 
>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:39 PM
>To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>Cc: Marc de Piolenc
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
>
>You're getting power and energy mixed up.
>Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
>it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
>It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
>not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with
>its
>power rating and speed.
>To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
>array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency,
>receiving
>100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
>photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.
>
>It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
>while driving.
>
>On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
>to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
>worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have
>a
>short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
>broad daylight in a sunny climate.
>
>Marc de Piolenc
>
>On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
>> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets
>4.5 miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd
>like to know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that
>speed.? Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the
>formula for figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of
>all the variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my
>car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would
>be needed for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be
>about 1 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence
>Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that
>could charge while driving.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Here's a link to trailer laws compiled by AAA - 
http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/trailer-dimensions/
this is what they say about Calif -
Total length: 65 feet (up to 75 feet in certain circumstances); trailer length: 
28 
feet 6 inches; motor home length: 40 feet (38 feet for a single-axle fifth 
wheel 
travel trailer; 40 feet for 2- or more axle fifth wheel travel trailer); width: 
102 inches (excluding safety equipment and RV appurtenances up to 6 inches); 
height: 13 feet 6 inches (14 feet on designated roads).

And I guess you're going to park it in your garage?

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via 
> EV
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 3:39 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>
> A 10 by 62 foot array would be 12,000 watts at 22.5% efficiency.  Smaller as 
> the 
> efficiency
> goes up.  Cost would be based on cell cost.  3,500 cells at lets say 2 to 4 
> dollars each.7
> thousand to 14 thousand for the cells. You could cut down length a bit if 
> some 
> were supported
> by the vehicle.  Then you get into aerodynamic issues.  Speed would be cut.  
> So 
> many
> variables.  It's doable but the finished product has to be smaller and less 
> ranging.  It would
> have to be super light.  Like 1000 pounds or less.  A better option is to use 
> an 
> Ultravan and
> put 3kw on the roof.  Less range but cleaner.  Probably be able run 20 miles 
> an 
> hour infinitely.
> A purpose built vehicle would be best.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[Michael Ross via EV]

Nice summary.

The item "receiving 100 watts per square meter" is tricky. On a clear day
with the sun over head you may see 1300W/m^2.  But more usual is 1100 or
1000. Could be 200W/m^2 with clouds or heavy weather. And the sun,
unfortunately does not stay directly in front of a mobile array no matter
what you do.  Then you apply the 80% or probably more efficiency
reduction.  (I have heard that CA is more forgiving than most places when
the smoke dies down. And then then there is SF in the AM ...)

Calling it 100 W/m^2 is a swag, but not a bad one. It is just that it
washes out all sorts of sub-optimal situations that will inevitably occur.

Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Marc de Piolenc via EV 
wrote:

> You're getting power and energy mixed up.
> Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power) it
> consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
> It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
> not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
> power rating and speed.
> To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
> array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
> 100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
> photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.
>
> It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge while
> driving.
>
> On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car to
> recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be worthwhile,
> depending on your application. This would work if you have a short commute,
> followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in broad daylight in a
> sunny climate.
>
> Marc de Piolenc



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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[ROBERT via EV]

What? To maintain a small car like a Leaf at 55 MPH only requires about 10 - 12 
HP.  This is only 7.5 KW (10HP) - 8.9 KW (12HP).  The battery in the Leaf is 
rated at 30 KW-Hr.  At 55 MPH it does not require all the power in the battery 
(30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9 KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.  A solar 
panel system that could replenish this energy plus conversion losses would keep 
the car going and the battery level at a its current level of charge because 
the solar panel system would run the car.



From: EV  on behalf of Marc de Piolenc via EV 

Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:39 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Marc de Piolenc
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

You're getting power and energy mixed up.
Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
power rating and speed.
To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.

It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
while driving.

On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have a
short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
broad daylight in a sunny climate.

Marc de Piolenc

On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
> per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to know is 
> what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.? Now don't tell 
> me it can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.? 
> My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.? I do know that a 
> 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know 
> the numbers of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.? I 
> guesstimated it would be about 1 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? 
> Thanks,? Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range 
> extender/RV that could charge while driving.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Marc,
Iam afraid you are not making the Leaf specification situation better.
When Lawrence says he has a 30kW battery, he means 30 kWh.
That is a 2016 Leaf with the improved battery (normal was 24 kWh).
All Leafs have a 90 kW rating IIRC, meaning that they can accelerate
with the
motor producing up to 90kW of power.
Standard freeway driving takes about 15kW, Lawrence is apparently
capable of using only 12.2 kW while mainining 55 MPH on the freeway
by doing 4.5 mi/kWh.
Regards,

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc
via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:40 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Marc de Piolenc
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

You're getting power and energy mixed up.
Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
power rating and speed.
To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.

It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
while driving.

On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have a
short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
broad daylight in a sunny climate.

Marc de Piolenc

On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to
know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.?
Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for
figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed
for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be about 1
watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence Rhodes...the
point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge
while driving.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

[Marc de Piolenc via EV]

You're getting power and energy mixed up.
Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power) 
it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power, 
not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its 
power rating and speed.
To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar 
array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving 
100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar 
photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.


It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge 
while driving.


On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car 
to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be 
worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have a 
short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in 
broad daylight in a sunny climate.


Marc de Piolenc

On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:

My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to know is what 
size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.? Now don't tell me it 
can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.? My puny 
brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt 
system would charge my car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know the numbers 
of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would 
be about 1 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence 
Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could 
charge while driving.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

paul dove via EV wrote:

The batteries are part of the car since it won't go without them.. so 2300 
lbs?
That's pretty light but not enough to go 217 miles on a charge.

26KWh / 217 = 120Wh/m  They had to have done something else.



Lots of "something elses". Good aerodynamics. Low frontal area. Flush 
windows. An absolutely smooth flat bottom. No front grille. High 
pressure, low rolling resistance tires (small by modern standards). 
Brakes that don't drag. A motor and controller so efficient that they 
don't need a power-consuming liquid cooling system.


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--
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[paul dove via EV]

The batteries are part of the car since it won't go without them.. so 2300 
lbs?
That's pretty light but not enough to go 217 miles on a charge. 

26KWh / 217 = 120Wh/m  They had to have done something else.



  From: Lee Hart via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Lee Hart 
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 3:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
   
paul dove wrote:
>  From what I read it weighed over 3000 lbs. That is not light weight.
The GVWR was about 3000 lbs, but that includes the car itself, 
batteries, and a full load of passengers and luggage. The cars 
themselves varied from 1400 to 1600 lbs, depending on how much "fluff" 
was installed. Range records were set with it stripped down. See

http://www.sunrise-ev.com/original.htm#specifications
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
http://www.evdl.org/pages/boston_ny.html


-- 
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

A 10 by 62 foot array would be 12,000 watts at 22.5% efficiency.  Smaller as 
the efficiency goes up.  Cost would be based on cell cost.  3,500 cells at lets 
say 2 to 4 dollars each.7 thousand to 14 thousand for the cells. You could cut 
down length a bit if some were supported by the vehicle.  Then you get into 
aerodynamic issues.  Speed would be cut.  So many variables.  It's doable but 
the finished product has to be smaller and less ranging.  It would have to be 
super light.  Like 1000 pounds or less.  A better option is to use an Ultravan 
and put 3kw on the roof.  Less range but cleaner.  Probably be able run 20 
miles an hour infinitely. A purpose built vehicle would be best.  Lawrence 
Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[ROBERT via EV]

David, you are correct; however, I did the math using the information provided. 
 The problem is that people use the terms energy and power interchangeably. 
Power is the rate which work is done and measured in watts.  Energy is the 
capacity to do work measured in watt-hrs.  I was being sarcastic.  Sorry.


From: David Nelson 
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 9:05 PM, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
> I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5 miles per 
> kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5 miles = 
> 222 W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However, if it is 
> accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.
>

This is an example of why the units need to be correct. It should
state that the Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kWh, that is a kilowatt-hour
not a kilowatt. This changes your numbers to 1000 Wh / 4.5mi = 222
Wh/mi. Thus you need 222Wh to go a mile. If you only had 222W from a
solar panel then you need to have one hour of charging to go that
mile.

David D Nelson
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

paul dove wrote:

 From what I read it weighed over 3000 lbs. That is not light weight.
The GVWR was about 3000 lbs, but that includes the car itself, 
batteries, and a full load of passengers and luggage. The cars 
themselves varied from 1400 to 1600 lbs, depending on how much "fluff" 
was installed. Range records were set with it stripped down. See


http://www.sunrise-ev.com/original.htm#specifications
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
http://www.evdl.org/pages/boston_ny.html


--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

A solar trailer with a conventional EV is not well suited to sustained highway 
speed transport. It can however be useful for range extension (if you can 
charge while driving or use the trailer as a pusher) or for slow charging while 
camping at non-electric camp sites. Getting 1 kW on a trailer is definitely 
possible, and that in turn can get you about 3-4 kWh per day depending on solar 
orientation and day length. 3-4 kWh is 12-16 miles/day for a 250 Wh/mile EV. 
For someone camping in a particular place for several days at a time, this 
could work out alright.


On December 28, 2017 1:21:41 PM CST, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
>On 28 Dec 2017 at 5:05, ROBERT via EV wrote:
>
>> I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5
>miles per
>> kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5
>miles =
>> 222 W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However, if
>it is
>> accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.
>
>First of alll, that should be kilowatt hours (KWH) and watt-hours, not
>just 
>watts.  Watts per mile is a meaningless unit.  Saying your EV uses 222
>watts 
>per mile is like saying your ICEV uses 120 horsepower per mile.  
>
>Second, I don't see anything wrong with the math in the message you're 
>replying to.  My only quibble would be with "you would need a minimum
>input 
>of 12,220 watts."  I would say that he needs a minimum AVERAGE input of
>
>about that amount of power.
>
>Others have posted the amount of square PV area needed, so I won't
>rehash 
>that.  I'll just remind you that the sun doesn't shine 24 hours a day,
>and 
>that insolation is lower on cloudy days and in the winter.  Even if you
>can 
>design a trailer to keep your EV going 55 at noon on a clear summer
>day, 
>what will you do at other times?  
>
>Putting PVs on a vehicle (or its trailer)  probably isn't the most
>efficient 
>use of your PV dollars.  Is it really worth it?  Your call.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[paul dove via EV]

From what I read it weighed over 3000 lbs. That is not light weight.

My celica weighed 2900 lbs after I converted it.

It did have a 26kwh battery so that’s 30% more than mine.

They must have done something else to get the efficiency to go 200 miles on a 
charge.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 28, 2017, at 11:56 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>> I'll tell you, like many others have, again... it can't be done.
> 
> Lawrence (and fellow EVers),
> 
> It's not that it can't be done. It just can't be done with the same old 
> thinking that led to our present way of building cars.
> 
> Modern cars are massively heavy and inefficient. Their "aerodynamics" are 
> designed by stylists for looks; not engineers for performance. They are built 
> like ironclad battleships; not airplanes. Their heating and cooling systems 
> are big enough to heat or cool a small apartment. This means they need a huge 
> amount of power to do the job. With gasoline or diesel; no problem. We've got 
> "plenty" -- just burn all you need.
> 
> The EVs produced by the big auto companies are still taking this "massive 
> overkill" approach. Their cars are all steel, ridiculously heavy, and have 
> pitiful aerodynamics. There's no insulation to help their heating and cooling 
> sytems. So they need expensive, heavy battery packs, and their KWH/mile is 
> poor.
> 
> Electric cars require an entirely different approach. You can't make a pig 
> fly; but you *can* make a bird fly.
> 
> There have been hundreds of solar-powered cars that *do* run on sunlight 
> alone. They have travelled at freeway speeds, and covered hundreds of miles a 
> day. But they are built more like airplanes than cars. Light weight and 
> efficiency are designed in right from the start. Styling and comfort take a 
> back seat to light weight and efficiency.
> 
> For decades, Amory Lovins has championed his "hypercar" concept. Make the car 
> half the weight, and you double its efficiency. Improve its aerodynamics, and 
> you double it again. With modern high-strength materials and manufacturing 
> techniques, it can still be just as strong and safe. With high-tech 
> electronics, you can drastically reduce the power needed for creature 
> comforts.
> 
> James Worden built the Solectria Sunrise EV using these techniques. Over 20 
> years ago, he had a 4-passenger car with all the usual amenities that could 
> go over 300 miles on a charge, weighed only 1600 lbs and still passed crash 
> standards. And that was without lithium batteries; with today's batteries, it 
> would have twice the range.
> 
> I've been struggling for years to produce a new version of the Sunrise. 
> Sadly, I haven't been able to do it. I don't have the resources by myself, 
> and the market simply does not want it.
> 
> -- 
> "Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
> trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 28 Dec 2017 at 5:05, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5 miles per
> kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5 miles =
> 222 W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However, if it is
> accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.

First of alll, that should be kilowatt hours (KWH) and watt-hours, not just 
watts.  Watts per mile is a meaningless unit.  Saying your EV uses 222 watts 
per mile is like saying your ICEV uses 120 horsepower per mile.  

Second, I don't see anything wrong with the math in the message you're 
replying to.  My only quibble would be with "you would need a minimum input 
of 12,220 watts."  I would say that he needs a minimum AVERAGE input of 
about that amount of power.

Others have posted the amount of square PV area needed, so I won't rehash 
that.  I'll just remind you that the sun doesn't shine 24 hours a day, and 
that insolation is lower on cloudy days and in the winter.  Even if you can 
design a trailer to keep your EV going 55 at noon on a clear summer day, 
what will you do at other times?  

Putting PVs on a vehicle (or its trailer)  probably isn't the most efficient 
use of your PV dollars.  Is it really worth it?  Your call.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[David Nelson via EV]

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 9:05 PM, ROBERT via EV  wrote:
> I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5 miles per 
> kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5 miles = 
> 222 W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However, if it is 
> accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.
>

This is an example of why the units need to be correct. It should
state that the Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kWh, that is a kilowatt-hour
not a kilowatt. This changes your numbers to 1000 Wh / 4.5mi = 222
Wh/mi. Thus you need 222Wh to go a mile. If you only had 222W from a
solar panel then you need to have one hour of charging to go that
mile.

David D Nelson
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lee Hart via EV]

Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

I'll tell you, like many others have, again... it can't be done.


Lawrence (and fellow EVers),

It's not that it can't be done. It just can't be done with the same old 
thinking that led to our present way of building cars.


Modern cars are massively heavy and inefficient. Their "aerodynamics" 
are designed by stylists for looks; not engineers for performance. They 
are built like ironclad battleships; not airplanes. Their heating and 
cooling systems are big enough to heat or cool a small apartment. This 
means they need a huge amount of power to do the job. With gasoline or 
diesel; no problem. We've got "plenty" -- just burn all you need.


The EVs produced by the big auto companies are still taking this 
"massive overkill" approach. Their cars are all steel, ridiculously 
heavy, and have pitiful aerodynamics. There's no insulation to help 
their heating and cooling sytems. So they need expensive, heavy battery 
packs, and their KWH/mile is poor.


Electric cars require an entirely different approach. You can't make a 
pig fly; but you *can* make a bird fly.


There have been hundreds of solar-powered cars that *do* run on sunlight 
alone. They have travelled at freeway speeds, and covered hundreds of 
miles a day. But they are built more like airplanes than cars. Light 
weight and efficiency are designed in right from the start. Styling and 
comfort take a back seat to light weight and efficiency.


For decades, Amory Lovins has championed his "hypercar" concept. Make 
the car half the weight, and you double its efficiency. Improve its 
aerodynamics, and you double it again. With modern high-strength 
materials and manufacturing techniques, it can still be just as strong 
and safe. With high-tech electronics, you can drastically reduce the 
power needed for creature comforts.


James Worden built the Solectria Sunrise EV using these techniques. Over 
20 years ago, he had a 4-passenger car with all the usual amenities that 
could go over 300 miles on a charge, weighed only 1600 lbs and still 
passed crash standards. And that was without lithium batteries; with 
today's batteries, it would have twice the range.


I've been struggling for years to produce a new version of the Sunrise. 
Sadly, I haven't been able to do it. I don't have the resources by 
myself, and the market simply does not want it.


--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Brett Davis via EV]

Only to go a mile.  That doesn't take into account how long it takes the
leaf to go that mile, 65ish seconds. (55mph)

Brett

On Dec 27, 2017 11:38 PM, "ROBERT via EV"  wrote:

> I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5 miles
> per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5
> miles = 222 W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However,
> if it is accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.
>
>
>
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of Jay Summet via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 4:18 PM
> To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Lawrence Rhodes via
> EV; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: Jay Summet
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>
> 55 mph / 4.5 miles per kwh = 12.22 kwh per hour or 30/12.22 = 2.45 hours
> of driving time at 55mph with 30 kwh, or 2.45x55=135 mile range at 55mph.
>
> So, to drive continuously at 55mph  you would need a minimum input of
> 12,220 watts.
>
> Jay
>
> On December 27, 2017 5:47:54 PM EST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
> >miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to
> >know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.
> >Now don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the formula
> >for figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
> >variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
> >hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed
> >for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be about 1
> >watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence Rhodes...the
> >point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge
> >while driving.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[ROBERT via EV]

I do not know who does your math.  The email states "Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kw 
at 55mph more or less depending on wind."  Therefore, 1000 W / 4.5 miles = 222 
W per mile.   This appears to be a little low to me.  However, if it is 
accurate, you would need 222 W to go one mile.




From: EV  on behalf of Jay Summet via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 4:18 PM
To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Lawrence Rhodes via EV; 
ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jay Summet
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

55 mph / 4.5 miles per kwh = 12.22 kwh per hour or 30/12.22 = 2.45 hours of 
driving time at 55mph with 30 kwh, or 2.45x55=135 mile range at 55mph.

So, to drive continuously at 55mph  you would need a minimum input of 12,220 
watts.

Jay

On December 27, 2017 5:47:54 PM EST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
wrote:
>Hi all,
>My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
>miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to
>know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.
>Now don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the formula
>for figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
>variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
>hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed
>for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be about 1
>watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence Rhodes...the
>point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge
>while driving.
>-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Jay Summet via EV]

55 mph / 4.5 miles per kwh = 12.22 kwh per hour or 30/12.22 = 2.45 hours of 
driving time at 55mph with 30 kwh, or 2.45x55=135 mile range at 55mph.

So, to drive continuously at 55mph  you would need a minimum input of 12,220 
watts.

Jay

On December 27, 2017 5:47:54 PM EST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
wrote:
>Hi all,
>My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
>miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to
>know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed. 
>Now don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the formula
>for figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
>variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
>hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed
>for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be about 1
>watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence Rhodes...the
>point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge
>while driving.
>-- next part --
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

>From 
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1970270/astronergy/solar-panels/astronergy-chsm6610p-270-solar-panel

A 270 watt panel is 64.88" × 38.98".
Your guesstimate of 1 watts would require (1 /270) 37.037 panels.
Doing the math (64.88 x 38.98 x 37), that is 93573 sq inches.
There are 144 sq inches in a sq ft, so that is (93573/144) 649 sq ft, or a 
square 
25ft x 25ft.

Now I'm not going to say it is impossible, but it is downright foolish

Rush

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via 
> EV
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 3:48 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
> Subject: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>
> Hi all,
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
> per 
> kw at
> 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to know is what size 
> solar 
> panel would
> be needed to support that speed.  Now don't tell me it can't be done.  I just 
> want to know the
> formula for figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all 
> the 
> variables.  I do
> know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10 hours.  I would just 
> like 
> to know the
> numbers of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.  I 
> guesstimated 
> it would be
> about 1 watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence 
> Rhodes...the point is to
> build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge while driving.
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

If you really want a directly solar powered vehicle, you will want to look at 
the low profile lightweight solar racers that many university teams put 
together. These tend to use bicycle-like components.

Making it work for a conventional vehicle for sustained highway speeds runs 
into space, weight, and or cost issues. Top of the line generally available 
solar modules are around 21% efficient (SunPower, Panasonic, and LG).



On December 27, 2017 9:54:08 PM CST, Alan Arrison via EV  
wrote:
>I'll tell you, like many others have, again... it can't be done.
>
>
>
>On 12/27/2017 5:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets
>4.5 miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd
>like to know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that
>speed.  Now don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the
>formula for figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of
>all the variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my
>car in 10 hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would
>be needed for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be
>about 1 watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence
>Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that
>could charge while driving.
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Alan Arrison via EV]

I'll tell you, like many others have, again... it can't be done.



On 12/27/2017 5:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Hi all,
My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to know is what 
size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.  Now don't tell me it 
can't be done.  I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.  My puny 
brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt 
system would charge my car in 10 hours.  I would just like to know the numbers 
of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would 
be about 1 watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence 
Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could 
charge while driving.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence,
At 4.5 miles per kWh when driving continuous 55 MPH,
you drive 55 miles in 1 hour. In that time you consume
55/4.5 = 12.2 kWh of energy.
If you want to generate that same energy while driving,
to keep your battery at the same level, you need to be
generating an average of 12.2 kW into the battery.
Since you will likely not generate power at the exact
battery voltage, you need to convert, which can mean
anything from 80 - 95% efficiency depending on money
and choices in system components, so let's say that you
need to generate 13 to 14 kW from the panels before
conversion to battery voltage.
But due to sub-optimal conditions (you cannot point the
panel to the sun) you get a varying amount of power from
the panels, depending on the angle that the sun hits them
and the occasional shading that you encounter from trees,
buildings, signs and so forth.
So, you probably need to start with a panel of about 20kWp
in order to end up with an average stream of 12.2kW into
your pack.
Now do the math on the size of that amount of solar:
at roughly 15% panel efficiency (which is extremely high,
12% used to be the norm for many years) you would need
20/0.15 = 133 sqm which is over 1400 sqft.
I believe that 12 ft is the absolute max width of a vehicle on
the road, so this would mean a trailer with a length of 120 ft.
I don't think it will be roadworth or legal or still get 4.5 mi/kWh.

BTW, others have suggested, many years ago and in context of
charging trailers, that you do not need to maintain battery level,
just slow the drain to the point that with stops included, you
replenish enough that your battery is drained at the end of the trip.
Say you take a 330 miles trip. That means 6 hours driving at 55 MPH.
But you also will add a stop for a meal, and possibly a restroom break
with a coffee, say that you have a total of 7 hours trip.
You start with full battery and can drain safely 20 kWh from the battery
by your arrival.
The 330 mi trip takes an amount of energy of 330/4.5 = 73.3 kWh.
You only need to generate 53.3 kWh and have 7 hours to do it.
Now you only need 7.6 kW average into the pack.
If you produce less, you need to take longer breaks, or plug in for fast charge.
You get the idea.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 2:48 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

Hi all,
My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to know is what 
size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.  Now don't tell me it 
can't be done.  I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.  My puny 
brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt 
system would charge my car in 10 hours.  I would just like to know the numbers 
of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would 
be about 1 watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence 
Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could 
charge while driving.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Brett Davis via EV]

The consumption rate is 12.2 kWh plus losses.

So a 15kW panel should do it? (Is this right? )

Some quick googling suggests 100-110 square meters. 1100 sq ft or so.  8'
wide and 130' long.

YMMV

Brett

On Dec 27, 2017 3:48 PM, "Lawrence Rhodes via EV"  wrote:

> Hi all,
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
> miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to
> know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.  Now
> don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the formula for
> figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
> variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
> hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed for
> continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be about 1 watts.
> I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to
> build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge while driving.
> -- next part --
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[EVDL] Solar trailer calculation

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Hi all,
My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles 
per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to know is what 
size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.  Now don't tell me it 
can't be done.  I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.  My puny 
brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt 
system would charge my car in 10 hours.  I would just like to know the numbers 
of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would 
be about 1 watts.  I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence 
Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could 
charge while driving.
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