On Apr 5, 1:37 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> Stathis and Brent,
>
> I'll respond to both at once since they are the same core objection:
>
> "Why does feeling have to have "purpose"? "
>
> "I can't even conceive of what it would mean for them
> to be justified. "
>
> They have to be justified and
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
>> Why does feeling have to have "purpose"? The universe as a whole does
>> not have "purpose" unless you believe in a certain kind of god.
>>
>
> Let us imagine that we have a deterministic theory of everything and it has
> started at time ze
On 4/5/2012 5:37 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Stathis and Brent,
I'll respond to both at once since they are the same core objection:
"Why does feeling have to have "purpose"?"
"I can't even conceive of what it would mean for them
to be justified. "
They have to be justified and have a purpose b
On 05.04.2012 04:14 Stathis Papaioannou said the following:
On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Your claim that it is impossible to feel in a deterministic universe
is unjustified. It's simply an idea you have taken a fancy to.
I don't claim that it is impossible to feel i
Stathis and Brent,
I'll respond to both at once since they are the same core objection:
"Why does feeling have to have "purpose"? "
"I can't even conceive of what it would mean for them
to be justified. "
They have to be justified and have a purpose because that is what a
deterministic universe
On 4/4/2012 7:01 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
I don't claim that it is impossible to feel in a deterministic
universe, but I suspect that is the case since there is no
deterministic justification
Deterministic things are determined. I can't even conceive of what it would mean for them
to be just
On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>> Your claim that it is impossible to feel in a deterministic universe
>> is unjustified. It's simply an idea you have taken a fancy to.
>
> I don't claim that it is impossible to feel in a deterministic
> universe, but I suspect that is the
On Apr 4, 8:43 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> > That too, but specifically the feeling of free will is impossible to
> > account for in a purely deterministic universe. "I feel like I am
> > choosing what to write here" cannot be expressed
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> That too, but specifically the feeling of free will is impossible to
> account for in a purely deterministic universe. "I feel like I am
> choosing what to write here" cannot be expressed in a d-universe. What
> is 'I feel'? What is 'choosin
On Apr 4, 6:16 am, 1Z wrote:
> On Apr 3, 5:20 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 5:27 am, 1Z wrote:
>
> > > > > But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will. It
> > > > > didn't even show
> > > > > there was any free will. It just showed that inducing
On Apr 4, 6:09 am, 1Z wrote:
> On Apr 3, 4:54 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > That too, but specifically the feeling of free will is impossible to
> > account for in a purely deterministic universe.
>
> No. In a deterministic universe that can account for feelings,
> you can have any feeling, in
On Apr 3, 5:20 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 3, 5:27 am, 1Z wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will. It
> > > > didn't even show
> > > > there was any free will. It just showed that inducing a belief in free
> > > > will changed
> > > > perf
On Apr 3, 4:58 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 3, 5:07 am, 1Z wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > Why not? If the brain is deterministic then beliefs are deterministic
> > > > and changing them
> > > > by external inputs can change performance.
>
> > > The belief is about the power to self determine thou
On Apr 3, 4:54 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 3, 5:04 am, 1Z wrote:
>
>
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> > On Apr 2, 9:39 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
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> > > On Apr 2, 2:12 pm, 1Z wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 2, 6:02 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> > > > > > On 4/2
On Apr 3, 5:27 am, 1Z wrote:
>
> > > But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will. It
> > > didn't even show
> > > there was any free will. It just showed that inducing a belief in free
> > > will changed
> > > performance.
>
> > Performance in what though? Readiness to exe
On Apr 3, 5:07 am, 1Z wrote:
>
> > > Why not? If the brain is deterministic then beliefs are deterministic
> > > and changing them
> > > by external inputs can change performance.
>
> > The belief is about the power to self determine though. The
> > performance change is evidence that some chang
On Apr 3, 5:04 am, 1Z wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:39 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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> > On Apr 2, 2:12 pm, 1Z wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 6:02 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> > > > > On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > > >>> If al
On Apr 2, 11:22 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> On 4/2/2012 7:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
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> > On Apr 2, 5:05 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> >> But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will. It
> >> didn't even show
> >> there was any free will. It just showed that induc
On Apr 3, 3:12 am, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 5:05 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
>
>
> > But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will. It didn't
> > even show
> > there was any free will. It just showed that inducing a belief in free
> > will changed
> > performance.
>
> P
On 02 Apr 2012, at 18:03, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
If all movement was involuntary in the
> > first place then there would be no significant difference
between
> > passively watching yourself move and passively watching
yourself not
> > move
>
> > If w
On Apr 2, 9:41 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 1:33 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
>
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> > On 4/2/2012 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> > >> On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > If all movement was involuntary in the
> > >
On Apr 2, 9:39 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 2:12 pm, 1Z wrote:
>
>
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> > On Apr 2, 6:02 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> > > > On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > >>> If all movement was involuntary in the
> > > >
On 4/2/2012 7:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 2, 5:05 pm, meekerdb wrote:
But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will. It didn't
even show
there was any free will. It just showed that inducing a belief in free will
changed
performance.
Performance in what though?
On Apr 2, 5:05 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will. It didn't
> even show
> there was any free will. It just showed that inducing a belief in free will
> changed
> performance.
Performance in what though? Readiness to execute personal wi
On 4/2/2012 1:41 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 2, 1:33 pm, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/2/2012 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdbwrote:
On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
If all movement was involuntary in the
> first place then there would
On Apr 2, 1:33 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> Most decisions do not have an experience associated with them,
That's an assumption. All decisions could have an experience
associated with them without their being part of *our* experience.
> we make them
> 'subconsciously' (e.g. the movement of my fingers
On Apr 2, 1:33 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> On 4/2/2012 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> >> On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > If all movement was involuntary in the
> >> > first place then there would be no significan
On Apr 2, 2:12 pm, 1Z wrote:
> On Apr 2, 6:02 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> > > On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > >>> If all movement was involuntary in the
> > > >>> > > first place then there would be no significant d
On Apr 2, 6:33 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> Most decisions do not have an experience associated with them, we make them
> 'subconsciously' (e.g. the movement of my fingers in typing this). So the
> experience of
> free will is just the failure to be able to trace all the causes of a
> conscious dec
On Apr 2, 6:02 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > >>> If all movement was involuntary in the
> > >>> > > first place then there would be no significant difference between
> > >>> > > passivel
On 4/2/2012 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
If all movement was involuntary in the
>first place then there would be no significant difference between
>passively watching yourself move and passively wat
On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> >>> If all movement was involuntary in the
> >>> > > first place then there would be no significant difference between
> >>> > > passively watching yourself move and passively watching yourself not
> >>> > >
On Apr 2, 5:28 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 10:38 am, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> > Craig,
>
> > What is the definition of free will you are applying here? Please be as
> > specific as possible.
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Jason
>
> Since free will is primitive, it is not possible to define it in
On Apr 2, 3:14 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:52 am, 1Z wrote:
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> > On Mar 14, 6:08 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> > > > On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> > > >
On Apr 2, 3:03 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:49 am, 1Z wrote:
>
> > On Mar 14, 10:11 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 14, 2:52 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> > > > Compare: "If you had no immortal soul that would be judged after your
> > > > death your belief
> > > > about it should
On Apr 2, 10:38 am, Jason Resch wrote:
> Craig,
>
> What is the definition of free will you are applying here? Please be as
> specific as possible.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
Since free will is primitive, it is not possible to define it in terms
other than its own. That is the problem. It is the epis
On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
If all movement was involuntary in the
> > first place then there would be no significant difference between
> > passively watching yourself move and passively watching yourself not
> > move
>
> > If we had no free will, our belief about it sho
Craig,
What is the definition of free will you are applying here? Please be as
specific as possible.
Thanks,
Jason
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:54 am, 1Z wrote:
>
> >
> > > since for a computer there is no possible difference
> > > between voluntary act
On Apr 2, 9:54 am, 1Z wrote:
>
> > since for a computer there is no possible difference
> > between voluntary action and automatic action.
>
> "voluntary" could mean "controlled determinsitcally by higher brain
> centres".
If that were the case, why should we identify with that control
personall
On Apr 2, 9:52 am, 1Z wrote:
> On Mar 14, 6:08 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
> > > On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> > > >> On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > >>>
On Apr 2, 9:49 am, 1Z wrote:
> On Mar 14, 10:11 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > On Mar 14, 2:52 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> > > Compare: "If you had no immortal soul that would be judged after your
> > > death your belief
> > > about it should have no effect on your religious behavior." Beliefs can
On Mar 14, 4:49 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Mar 14, 10:44 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Craig Weinberg
> > wrote:
> > >http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
>
> > > Abstract
>
> > > The feeling of being in control of
On Mar 14, 6:08 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> > >> On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > >>>http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.ab
On Mar 14, 10:11 pm, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Mar 14, 2:52 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> > Compare: "If you had no immortal soul that would be judged after your death
> > your belief
> > about it should have no effect on your religious behavior." Beliefs can
> > have effects
> > whether they have
On Mar 14, 2:52 pm, meekerdb wrote:
Remind me again what is the argument for why anyone would mind having
their liberty taken away?
Craig
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On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 14 Mar 2012, at 21:34, John Mikes wrote:
>
> >>Craig and Brent:
> "Free Will" is not a matter of faith. One does not "believe "IN" it, or
> not".
> (Of course this is a position in my (agnostic) worldview - my 'belief' ha
> ha).<<
>
>
On 14 Mar 2012, at 21:34, John Mikes wrote:
Craig and Brent:
"Free Will" is not a matter of faith. One does not "believe "IN" it,
or not".
(Of course this is a position in my (agnostic) worldview - my
'belief' ha ha).
In "pure ideal science" there is no act of faith, except in the
ratio
On Mar 14, 4:34 pm, John Mikes wrote:
> Craig and Brent:
> "Free Will" is not a matter of faith. One does not "believe "IN" it, or
> not".
> (Of course this is a position in my (agnostic) worldview - my 'belief' ha
> ha).
> We are part of an infinite complexity with limited capabilities to accept
On Mar 14, 2:52 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> On 3/14/2012 10:08 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> >> On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> >>> On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> >
Craig and Brent:
"Free Will" is not a matter of faith. One does not "believe "IN" it, or
not".
(Of course this is a position in my (agnostic) worldview - my 'belief' ha
ha).
We are part of an infinite complexity with limited capabilities to accept
influence from the infinite factors (if those ARE f
On 3/14/2012 10:08 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb wrote:
On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdbwrote:
On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
Abstract
The
On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> >> On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> >>>http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
> >>> Abstract
> >>> The feeling of bein
On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb wrote:
On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
Abstract
The feeling of being in control of one�s own actions is a
strong subjective experience. Howe
On Mar 14, 11:31 am, John Clark wrote:
> >http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
>
> > Abstract
>
> > > The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a strong
> > subjective experience.
>
> And the reason we feel that way is because we can't predict what the
> external e
On Mar 14, 10:44 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> >http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
>
> > Abstract
>
> > The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a
> > strong subjective experience. However, discoveries
> http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
>
> Abstract
>
>> The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a strong
> subjective experience.
And the reason we feel that way is because we can't predict what the
external environment will throw at us, and even if we could w
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
>
> Abstract
>
> The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a
> strong subjective experience. However, discoveries in psychology and
> neuroscience challenge the validity o
On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb wrote:
> On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
>
> > Abstract
>
> > The feeling of being in control of one�s own actions is a
> > strong subjective experience. However, discoveries
On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
Abstract
The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a
strong subjective experience. However, discoveries in psychology and
neuroscience challenge the validity of this experience an
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
Abstract
The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a
strong subjective experience. However, discoveries in psychology and
neuroscience challenge the validity of this experience and suggest
that free will is just an illusion. T
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