Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-06 Thread Sean C. McCarthy

B. van Ouwerkerk wrote:
 
 I can tell you that in general, companies in Europe appears to be more
 open to open-source solutions much more than ones in the US.  Of course,
 Europe is comprised of lots of different countries, and each country has
 lots of different companies, so your mileage may vary.
 
 In The Netherlands many people believe M$ creates great products.. I
 stopped fighting, upgrading and patching NT pays the rent :-)
 
 One of the reasons open source might be considered an alternative is the
 fact that M$ products cost 
 In Europe M$ products are more expensive then in the US.
 
 I talked with one of my customers about using Linux instead of Novell or
 NT.. he said Linux is to big to be used in a small company.. I don't
 understand him and I even stopped trying to understand.
 
 Just my 0,02
 
 Bye,
 
 B.
Hi,

My experience is the same. Here in Spain everybody uses Microsoft
products. W95, W98, NT everywhere, and now 2000. There a lot of MCSE
around and very little Linux/PHP experts. Yes there are a lot of  people
that say I'm an expert on this or that... but once you get to work
with them, you notice that their knoledge is not the one that they say.
Also saying I know Linux means absolutly nothing...

The Universities and companies I have been working at or with they all
use in 90% of the tasks MS products. And for critical tasks they use
Solaris or another Unix.

Now a few companies we are dealing with are moving to Linux/PHP, but
sometimes they fall back to Microsoft because they cannot afford hiring
another programmer/technician that deals with this special software
written in another language and another operating system. Too bad.

Where did you get that thing about EU being more open source that the
US??? Is it your personal experience or what??? It is not my own
experience... maybe what you mean is that the US is more in the bussines
of making money with the open source than the EU, but that is something
else.

Sean C. McCarthy
SCI, S.L. (www.sci-spain.com)

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository

2001-09-06 Thread Geoff Caplan

Miles


 Fascinating link and series of articles. Well worth reading.

 One of my VFP buddies copies his entire set of classes into every new
 project he starts; I've also seen scenarios where to use one or two useful
 functions you had to import a whole class structure.


Yes, I think he raises some very fair issues. My own experience goes like
this -

1) Had a business idea and couldn't afford the software, so decided to learn
how to build it myself.

2) Read Code Complete and did the first draft

3) Found I was getting drowned in complexity:  assumed OOP would be the
answer and that I might have to abandon PHP.

4) Read the OOP classics. I have a pretty strong academic background but I
find a lot of the OOP stuff extremely difficult to understand. I have a rule
of thumb that if an author can't explain something clearly, it is often
because they are not clear about it themselves. Began to wonder if the OOP
emperor had no clothes.

5) Began to suspect that it is the architectural ideas of OOP that are
interesting, rather than objects themselves.

6) Played around with PHP and discovered I could do most of the same things
more simply and more flexibly, organising the app around tasks rather than
objects.

7) Found some writers such as Michael Jackson (his recent book on analysis
is a classic) who gave a theoretical justification for what I was
intuitively doing in practice.

This is where I think a PHP Pattern Repository would come in - to allow the
community to begin to flesh out and document these non-OOP approaches. But
as there has been a thunderous silence, I have to assume that no one else
agrees...

Geoff Caplan


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository

2001-09-06 Thread Miles Thompson

Geoff,
I'm getting a 404 not found on that URL. Please check it.
Miles
At 05:07 PM 9/6/01 +0100, Geoff Caplan wrote:
Michael Kimsal wrote

  Tell me more about your thoughts on this please.

One of the strengths of PHP is the gentle learning curve. This means that a
lot of people are using it as their first programming language, and a lot of
the traffic on the lists, and the articles on the PHP sites, are at a pretty
basic level.

Nothing wrong with this, but it may give some the impression that PHP is not
a serious tool. If you lurk on Java/Ruby/Python/Rebol lists, as I sometimes
do, there is a lot of higher level discussion about how to get the best out
of the language, in architectural and design terms. I thought that a good
way to focus this kind of discussion would be debating and documenting
design and architecture patterns as applied to PHP.

I would have thought that this would be stimulating for the gurus, and
beginners like myself would learn a lot from watching the process.

And because the PHP solution will often be much simpler than the Java/C++
style solutions, it would be a good way to demonstrate the power of the
language to anyone considering adopting it for serious work.

Here is a paper documenting some procedural/relational patterns that might
give a sense of what I am suggesting:

http://www/geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm

Hope this is useful

Geoff Caplan



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository

2001-09-06 Thread * RzE:

Original message
From: Miles Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:44:16PM -0300
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository

 Geoff,
 I'm getting a 404 not found on that URL. Please check it.
 Miles

/Original message

Reply


You should replace the slash by a dot:

http://www/geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm
  ^
  |
  v
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm

/Reply

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* RzE:


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository

2001-09-06 Thread Geoff Caplan

Hi


I'm getting a 404 not found on that URL. Please check it.


Oops - silly typo - and I double checked it too!

Here is the address:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm

Actually, this is a pretty interesting site. The root is at:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/index.html

It is a pretty thought provoking critique of OOP as a tool for small to
medium business projects - helped give me the confidence to stick with a
procedural approach.

His style is pretty combative, which will put some backs up, but it makes
for entertaining reading.

The site is a bit shambolic, but if you dig around you will find about 30
papers and lots of good links too.

I particularly like his concept of Table Oriented Programming:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/top.htm

He shows how to use various kinds of external configuration approaches to
increase flexibility and reduce maintenance.

Good stuff, IMHO

Geoff Caplan


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository

2001-09-06 Thread Geoff Caplan

Michael Kimsal wrote

 Tell me more about your thoughts on this please.

One of the strengths of PHP is the gentle learning curve. This means that a
lot of people are using it as their first programming language, and a lot of
the traffic on the lists, and the articles on the PHP sites, are at a pretty
basic level.

Nothing wrong with this, but it may give some the impression that PHP is not
a serious tool. If you lurk on Java/Ruby/Python/Rebol lists, as I sometimes
do, there is a lot of higher level discussion about how to get the best out
of the language, in architectural and design terms. I thought that a good
way to focus this kind of discussion would be debating and documenting
design and architecture patterns as applied to PHP.

I would have thought that this would be stimulating for the gurus, and
beginners like myself would learn a lot from watching the process.

And because the PHP solution will often be much simpler than the Java/C++
style solutions, it would be a good way to demonstrate the power of the
language to anyone considering adopting it for serious work.

Here is a paper documenting some procedural/relational patterns that might
give a sense of what I am suggesting:

http://www/geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm

Hope this is useful

Geoff Caplan



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository

2001-09-06 Thread Geoff Caplan

Hi

Thomas Deliduka wrote:


 Actually this originally started ... with my question as to what
 to tell my JSP-loving buddy that PHP isn't an
 antiquated and dying language/processing system.

I have a proposal for the PHP gurus which should help establish PHP's
credentials as a serious tool with cutting-edge capabilities. I think this
may be important, so please bear with me while I outline the case...

Clearly, most of the current buzz is around OOP  Java. And even with the
stronger object model proposed for Zend 2, PHP will always remain at heart a
procedural language. So it seems important for the community to demonstrate
how serious projects can be accomplished with a procedural/relational
approach, as this is the strength of PHP.

PHP offers some very powerful features not available in traditional
procedural languages - such as:
- includes and variable includes
- variable variables
- variable functions and variable length argument lists
- smart loose typing
- the wonderful, all singing, all dancing PHP array

The problem is, how to make best use of this power? Because these are
innovative features, there is little guidance out there in the traditional
literature.

As most will be aware, the Big Thing in OOP right now is Patterns. In
essence, patterns are outlines of proven solutions to common issues. There
are patterns for program architecture, program design and for the
development process itself. ( By the way, an interesting source of patterns
for web architecture is http://www.martinfowler.com/isa/ , if you don't know
it). Clearly, a lot of people are finding patterns very helpful, judging by
the explosion of interest in the field.

Even in my own experience as a newbie self-taught hacker, I have found ways
of using PHPs features to accomplish in a few lines of code things that
would involve a mountain of abstraction using the Gang of Four OOP patterns.
It is obvious that you can cream things with PHP that are difficult in
Java/C++. Those of you with more education and experience than me must have
discovered a wide range of these techniques.

What I am proposing is that the PHP style gurus get together to produce an
evolving repository of patterns demonstrating the power of PHP. A good start
would be to demonstrate how some of the Gang of Four patterns could be
accomplished more simply in PHP. This could be hosted on PHP.org or
Zend.com. If the repository became a lively focus of community activity, it
could go a long way to establish the serious credentials of the language.

The PHP documentation is terrific for an open source project, but there is a
huge gap between understanding the syntax of the language, and understanding
how to unleash its full power. A repository of quality PHP Patterns would
help bridge this gap.

What do people think?

Geoff Caplan


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-05 Thread B. van Ouwerkerk


I can tell you that in general, companies in Europe appears to be more 
open to open-source solutions much more than ones in the US.  Of course, 
Europe is comprised of lots of different countries, and each country has 
lots of different companies, so your mileage may vary.

In The Netherlands many people believe M$ creates great products.. I 
stopped fighting, upgrading and patching NT pays the rent :-)

One of the reasons open source might be considered an alternative is the 
fact that M$ products cost 
In Europe M$ products are more expensive then in the US.

I talked with one of my customers about using Linux instead of Novell or 
NT.. he said Linux is to big to be used in a small company.. I don't 
understand him and I even stopped trying to understand.

Just my 0,02

Bye,


B.


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-02 Thread Valter Santos


 In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
 is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
 better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
 me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
 that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP.

 In the US (and perhaps in the rest of America), that's relatively
 true.  That's not the case in Europe or the far east.  It has a lot to do
 with mentality and corporate culture.


I really disagree with you Zeev. I am from Portugal, Europe, and here the
idea
of Microsoft is the best still exist!

Hope this change in the near future!
Cheers




Valter Santos
WEB/WAP Consultant

Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: +351 93 9650075

WeDo Consulting - http://www.wedo.pt



 -Original Message-
 From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:54 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


 At 01:40 31-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Whoever hears you may even believe that Microsoft products and
 supporting sites are successful because they don't have flaws. Sorry,
 but honestely this sounds like an excuse for not doing it.

 Microsoft chooses which sites it links from microsoft.com *very*
 carefully
 - a very small select number of sites gets connected to it, and usually
 only for specific purposes (e.g., a specific article).  If you draw a
 comparison to the PHP world, you actually proved my point.

 The problem is not PHP-GUI capabilities being able to compete with other
 languages. The problem is that you seem to be willing to omit them when
 you present PHP as if it is something you don't want PHP be known for.

 I actually mention PHP-GTK in my sessions.  I mention it as an anecdote,
 much like I mention some of the other interesting modules and projects in
 PHP (e.g., PEAR).  I'm really not sure why people think I'm
 trying to bury
 PHP-GTK.  Just because I don't see PHP-GTK as a main course of
 PHP, doesn't
 mean I don't think it's an important and useful project.

 In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
 is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
 better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
 me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
 that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP.

 In the US (and perhaps in the rest of America), that's relatively
 true.  That's not the case in Europe or the far east.  It has a lot to do
 with mentality and corporate culture.

   This is my most
 important point: to make PHP a credible well known solution in all
 markets that it could be used with advantage.

 I don't think you'd find anybody who would argue with you about that.

 Zeev


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-02 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 03:11 03-09-01, Valter Santos wrote:

  In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
  is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
  better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
  me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
  that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP.
 
  In the US (and perhaps in the rest of America), that's relatively
  true.  That's not the case in Europe or the far east.  It has a lot to do
  with mentality and corporate culture.


I really disagree with you Zeev. I am from Portugal, Europe, and here the
idea
of Microsoft is the best still exist!

It will continue to exist for a long while in the minds of many 
people.  That's just the way things are - you never get anywhere near 100% 
of the people supporting you.  The question is whether in Portugal, you 
feel that going with a non-Microsoft solution means a complete up-hill 
battle or not.

I can tell you that in general, companies in Europe appears to be more open 
to open-source solutions much more than ones in the US.  Of course, Europe 
is comprised of lots of different countries, and each country has lots of 
different companies, so your mileage may vary.

Zeev


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-02 Thread Valter Santos


Zeev, I agree with you!



Valter Santos
WEB/WAP Consultant


 -Original Message-
 From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 1:21 AM
 To: Valter Santos
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [PHP] The future of PHP


 At 03:11 03-09-01, Valter Santos wrote:

   In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because
 they think it
   is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
   better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in
 charge above
   me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
   that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP.
  
   In the US (and perhaps in the rest of America), that's relatively
   true.  That's not the case in Europe or the far east.  It has
 a lot to do
   with mentality and corporate culture.
 
 
 I really disagree with you Zeev. I am from Portugal, Europe, and here the
 idea
 of Microsoft is the best still exist!

 It will continue to exist for a long while in the minds of many
 people.  That's just the way things are - you never get anywhere
 near 100%
 of the people supporting you.  The question is whether in Portugal, you
 feel that going with a non-Microsoft solution means a complete up-hill
 battle or not.

 I can tell you that in general, companies in Europe appears to be
 more open
 to open-source solutions much more than ones in the US.  Of
 course, Europe
 is comprised of lots of different countries, and each country has lots of
 different companies, so your mileage may vary.

 Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-01 Thread Christian Reiniger

On Friday 31 August 2001 15:22, Manuel Lemos wrote:
  I actually mention PHP-GTK in my sessions.  I mention it as an
  anecdote, much like I mention some of the other interesting modules
  and projects in PHP (e.g., PEAR).  I'm really not sure why people
  think I'm trying to bury PHP-GTK.  Just because I don't see PHP-GTK
  as a main course of PHP, doesn't mean I don't think it's an important
  and useful project.

 Oh, man, do you really do that? That is worse than not mention it at
 all. You may be joking but not everybody may understand it that way.
 Doing that you ruining the credibility of those efforts that take PHP
 far out what originally it was meant for. If you are going to just make
 it a joke, you'd better not mention it at all. I think that is

Heyheyhey, cool down. Anecdote != Joke. That's important. Anecdote in 
this context simply means an and by the way, there also other 
interesting uses for PHP: ...
Actually that's just what you wanted him to say :)

  In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think
   it is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could
   be a better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in
   charge above me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility
   in the market that would help me to make a good case to switch to
   PHP.
 
  In the US (and perhaps in the rest of America), that's relatively
  true.  That's not the case in Europe or the far east.  It has a lot
  to do with mentality and corporate culture.

 So, what? Even if it is like you say, because you have this perception
 that it is not that way in Europe and far east, you are not going to do
 anything to help people living in the Americas to make a better case
 for PHP in the corporate world?

Much can be done - we all know that. But:
(1) Most of that requires either mucho $$ or heaps|truckloads|... of 
time. Rasmus certainly has neither and the zend people already spend 
their time doing the really important thing (improving the language).
So such marketing campaigns have to come from other people.

(2) American corporate culture (hmm, rhymes with vulture... :) listens 
to the players with the most money. MS, Sun, Oracle, ...
So the only marketing plan that has a good chance to work is Somehow 
make about 5 billion dollars within a year and burn half of it for glossy 
ads etc.
I certainly won't do this...

(3) http://php.net/usage.php
Period.
Marketing really isn't the most important thing to do :)


Conclusion:
PHP's future looks bright, everyone is working hard to make it even 
brighter, and we all can dance happily around on the flowery meadows 
(except when working of course :)

-- 
Christian Reiniger
LGDC Webmaster (http://lgdc.sunsite.dk/)

Error 032: Recursion error - see error 032

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-01 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 16:22 31-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
Oh, man, do you really do that? That is worse than not mention it at
all. You may be joking but not everybody may understand it that way.
Doing that you ruining the credibility of those efforts that take PHP
far out what originally it was meant for. If you are going to just make
it a joke, you'd better not mention it at all. I think that is extremely
unfair for people like Andrei and other that worked so much on it! :-(

Uhm, I'm not joking.  Richard pointed out to me in a personal letter that 
anecdote may not be the right word here (thanks, Richard :).  I mention 
them (PHP-GTK, PEAR, etc) at the end of my presentations, as a list of 
pointers people should look into if they have interest in that particular 
subject.

Manuel, you should *REALLY* relax about this 'Zeev vs. PHP-GTK'.  This is 
absolutely the last time I'm going to say it - I have nothing against 
PHP-GTK, and Andrei and I work very well together.

So, what? Even if it is like you say, because you have this perception
that it is not that way in Europe and far east, you are not going to do
anything to help people living in the Americas to make a better case for
PHP in the corporate world?

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm not going to say what I was saying 
again, though.  Look in my old posts if you're interested...

Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-09-01 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 14:52 01-09-01, Christian Reiniger wrote:
On Friday 31 August 2001 15:22, Manuel Lemos wrote:
   I actually mention PHP-GTK in my sessions.  I mention it as an
   anecdote, much like I mention some of the other interesting modules
   and projects in PHP (e.g., PEAR).  I'm really not sure why people
   think I'm trying to bury PHP-GTK.  Just because I don't see PHP-GTK
   as a main course of PHP, doesn't mean I don't think it's an important
   and useful project.
 
  Oh, man, do you really do that? That is worse than not mention it at
  all. You may be joking but not everybody may understand it that way.
  Doing that you ruining the credibility of those efforts that take PHP
  far out what originally it was meant for. If you are going to just make
  it a joke, you'd better not mention it at all. I think that is

Heyheyhey, cool down. Anecdote != Joke. That's important. Anecdote in
this context simply means an and by the way, there also other
interesting uses for PHP: ...
Actually that's just what you wanted him to say :)

Oh, so it *was* the right word? :)

Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-31 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Zeev Suraski wrote:
 
 At 01:40 31-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Whoever hears you may even believe that Microsoft products and
 supporting sites are successful because they don't have flaws. Sorry,
 but honestely this sounds like an excuse for not doing it.
 
 Microsoft chooses which sites it links from microsoft.com *very* carefully
 - a very small select number of sites gets connected to it, and usually
 only for specific purposes (e.g., a specific article).  If you draw a
 comparison to the PHP world, you actually proved my point.

That hasn't much to do what I was saying, but, anyway your are not
linking to anybody in either php.net or zend.com , apart from the links
section and the directory that do not give a big deal of visibility.

 
 The problem is not PHP-GUI capabilities being able to compete with other
 languages. The problem is that you seem to be willing to omit them when
 you present PHP as if it is something you don't want PHP be known for.
 
 I actually mention PHP-GTK in my sessions.  I mention it as an anecdote,
 much like I mention some of the other interesting modules and projects in
 PHP (e.g., PEAR).  I'm really not sure why people think I'm trying to bury
 PHP-GTK.  Just because I don't see PHP-GTK as a main course of PHP, doesn't
 mean I don't think it's an important and useful project.

Oh, man, do you really do that? That is worse than not mention it at
all. You may be joking but not everybody may understand it that way.
Doing that you ruining the credibility of those efforts that take PHP
far out what originally it was meant for. If you are going to just make
it a joke, you'd better not mention it at all. I think that is extremely
unfair for people like Andrei and other that worked so much on it! :-(

 
 In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
 is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
 better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
 me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
 that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP.
 
 In the US (and perhaps in the rest of America), that's relatively
 true.  That's not the case in Europe or the far east.  It has a lot to do
 with mentality and corporate culture.

So, what? Even if it is like you say, because you have this perception
that it is not that way in Europe and far east, you are not going to do
anything to help people living in the Americas to make a better case for
PHP in the corporate world?

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-31 Thread Christopher CM Allen

Php'ers:

These are great points that have been brought up (a kinda synopsis, since we
are repeating here :)

synopsis
1) some want direct marketing
2) Some believe the status quo is enough
3) all agreee php is useful as a web development tool/language
4) some agree that it can/should be more (GTK/Command Line etc)

This originally started as a call to php'ers to step up and market the
language so that it can compete more vitally in a larger market.
Both Rasmus and Zeev have stated that they believe they are doing just that
via conferences and Zend. Mr Lemos et al believe that more should be done. A
more constructive targeted aim at the .NET and Java based crowd. Several
solutions/ideas have been suggested one of which is a poll/display of
quality/imaginative etc php sites. Another suggested that php go the way of
BIND and APACHE and that the wait will pay off with the volume of  users in
10-12 years.

/synopsis

Good Day!
--ccma


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-31 Thread Thomas Deliduka

Actually this originally started (If you're referring to the thread itself)
with my question as to what to tell my JSP-loving buddy that PHP isn't an
antiquated and dying language/processing system.

I NEVER would have thought it was balloon into this conversation!

On 8/31/2001 10:29 AM this was written:

 This originally started as a call to php'ers to step up and market the
 language so that it can compete more vitally in a larger market.
 Both Rasmus and Zeev have stated that they believe they are doing just that
 via conferences and Zend. Mr Lemos et al believe that more should be done. A
 more constructive targeted aim at the .NET and Java based crowd. Several
 solutions/ideas have been suggested one of which is a poll/display of
 quality/imaginative etc php sites. Another suggested that php go the way of
 BIND and APACHE and that the wait will pay off with the volume of  users in
 10-12 years.

-- 

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IT Manager
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New Eve Media
The Solution To Your Internet Angst
http://www.neweve.com/



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-31 Thread Philip Olson

looks bright.


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-31 Thread pierre-yves

 synopsis
 1) some want direct marketing
 2) Some believe the status quo is enough
 3) all agreee php is useful as a web development tool/language
...

Did you open source your thread filter program? :)

Good job anyway. For me the most important point is that
the developer/maintainer of the language are focusing on
making the best web development language out there.
(even if it is already the best)

py

- Original Message -
From: Christopher CM Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


 Php'ers:

 These are great points that have been brought up (a kinda synopsis, since
we
 are repeating here :)

 synopsis
 1) some want direct marketing
 2) Some believe the status quo is enough
 3) all agreee php is useful as a web development tool/language
 4) some agree that it can/should be more (GTK/Command Line etc)

 This originally started as a call to php'ers to step up and market the
 language so that it can compete more vitally in a larger market.
 Both Rasmus and Zeev have stated that they believe they are doing just
that
 via conferences and Zend. Mr Lemos et al believe that more should be done.
A
 more constructive targeted aim at the .NET and Java based crowd. Several
 solutions/ideas have been suggested one of which is a poll/display of
 quality/imaginative etc php sites. Another suggested that php go the way
of
 BIND and APACHE and that the wait will pay off with the volume of  users
in
 10-12 years.

 /synopsis

 Good Day!
 --ccma


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP or my 2 cents

2001-08-31 Thread B. van Ouwerkerk


I think with everyone replying to The future of PHP e-mails and putting in
their two cents, we're eventually going to raise that $100,000 in no time.
g

Yeah.. not to mention the time it takes to read or just download those 
messages.

I stopped counting and started hitting the delete button.

Just wondering how long this tread will keep alive.. thought it would be 
dead by now.

It started as The future of PHP but seems to become a discussion about 
what is a suitable job for a PHP script.. how to do some marketing for 
PHP.. ISP's not nowing everything about PHP.. and many many other things..

I've got some great ideas for cheap but very effective marketing.. but I'm 
running out of time now.

Bye,


B.


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-31 Thread Richard Lynch

 looks bright.

The future's so bright, I need to wear shades.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bottom line I'm hearing:  The Dev team has no more hours to give, and is
focussing on what they believe is right.  If somebody wants to sink
time/money into this, go for it.

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP or my 2 cents

2001-08-30 Thread Matthew A. Schneider

Although Fred's comments appear rhetorical, the suggestion has some merit.
Anyone have a feel for how many PHP devotees are out there? How many people
subscribe to this list? Do these numbers make it feasible to ask for a $1-10
contribution? How about $0.02 from each of the 7 million domains running
PHP?

There, that was my 2 cents worth. Or was that a 2 bit opinion? (I'll leave
the next joke to the group)

Also, I'll be proactive. Send all monies to me ;)

Matthew A. Schneider

- Original Message -
From: Frederick L. Steinkopf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


 Manuel,
 Rather than whining about the future of PHP, why don't you be proactive
and
 take on the goal of raising the $100,000 for the project?
 Fred Steinkopf



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP or my 2 cents

2001-08-30 Thread CC Zona

In article 010001c1311e$d86ebb40$[EMAIL PROTECTED],
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthew A. Schneider) wrote:

  Rather than whining about the future of PHP, why don't you be proactive
  and take on the goal of raising the $100,000 for the project?

 Although Fred's comments appear rhetorical, the suggestion has some merit.
 Anyone have a feel for how many PHP devotees are out there? How many people
 subscribe to this list? Do these numbers make it feasible to ask for a $1-10
 contribution? How about $0.02 from each of the 7 million domains running
 PHP?

To continue this (speculative) train of thought:

Would it be feasible to collect some kind of contest entry fee, either 
instead of or in addition to donations toward the prize?  If maximum 
participation were the goal (and I'm not sure that it would/should be, but 
for the sake of argument...), it might be a way to get entrants intestered 
in recruiting more entrants by reminding them that more developers in the 
contest, the bigger the reward to be won by one of them...

As for collecting funds for such an endeavor, FWIW I  (and presumably 
others) would be more likely to give if it were through the PHP.net group 
or Zend than through any third-party.  At least then if the contest were to 
fall through, I'm confident that the money would still be well-spent on 
furthering PHP development/marketing.

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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP or my 2 cents

2001-08-30 Thread Navid Yar

I think with everyone replying to The future of PHP e-mails and putting in
their two cents, we're eventually going to raise that $100,000 in no time.
g

Navid

-Original Message-
From: CC Zona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 3:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP or my 2 cents


In article 010001c1311e$d86ebb40$[EMAIL PROTECTED],
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthew A. Schneider) wrote:

  Rather than whining about the future of PHP, why don't you be proactive
  and take on the goal of raising the $100,000 for the project?

 Although Fred's comments appear rhetorical, the suggestion has some merit.
 Anyone have a feel for how many PHP devotees are out there? How many
people
 subscribe to this list? Do these numbers make it feasible to ask for a
$1-10
 contribution? How about $0.02 from each of the 7 million domains running
 PHP?

To continue this (speculative) train of thought:

Would it be feasible to collect some kind of contest entry fee, either
instead of or in addition to donations toward the prize?  If maximum
participation were the goal (and I'm not sure that it would/should be, but
for the sake of argument...), it might be a way to get entrants intestered
in recruiting more entrants by reminding them that more developers in the
contest, the bigger the reward to be won by one of them...

As for collecting funds for such an endeavor, FWIW I  (and presumably
others) would be more likely to give if it were through the PHP.net group
or Zend than through any third-party.  At least then if the contest were to
fall through, I'm confident that the money would still be well-spent on
furthering PHP development/marketing.

--
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Richard Lynch

  Can small business live from e-commerce today?
 
  What is the relevance of your question?  Do businesses live from
  their telephone?  Whether they do or not, they need it in either case.

 AFAIK, it costs a lot more money to have any start and operate a
 e-commerce business than a telephone.

Actually...  If you are starting a *SMALL* e-commerce business, you can
probably start it up for about the same as a phone installation... :-)

Shared web-server:  $35 setup + $20/month (or less)
Registration: $10/year
CCNow or similar processing: very small setup fee, moderate cut of each
transaction.

Telephone setup, in Chicago at least, is quite expensive, and probably is
more than that.  At least, it was 15 years ago when I moved in :-)

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Richard Lynch

 (Even though I didn't understand quite how shared objects work. g )

Like, I only did it once, and it was GD, and about 80% of the time it puked
trying to display an image, but...

Basically, if you compile using --with-apxs in the first place, and then you
re-compile from source using that --with-apxs thingie again only you add
more --with-foobar options, you get these .so files in the libs directory
that you can just http://php.net/dl into your script rather than install the
whole new PHP binary.  More importantly, you could compile them on a
different machine (same hardware with all the same versions of everything)
and then put them onto a server that ain't got those toys.

(In my case it was about not altering the main PHP binary and making it
non-standard from the other 7 boxes for what was just a test run of
something I wanted to play with for a day...)

Or, at least, that's how my vague memory of stumbling through this once
goes...

Now if somebody more organized than me (most of you, I imagine) wants to try
that and turn it into a HowTo to add to the PHP site, that would be pretty
nifty :-)

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Richard Lynch

This has strayed off-topic a bit.  Unless you're into music and/or business
planning for e-commerce, you probably should hit delete now...

  How about this one, doing *EXTREMELY* well selling CDs online:
 
  http://CDBaby.com/
 
  Of course, that has almost nothing to do with his choice of PHP (the
  language he could understand the easiest) and everything to do with
  intelligent business decisions on the back-side.
 
  No VC.
  No we'll make money later.
  Just great service at a fair price.
 
  I'm sure there are others out there.
 
  *CAN* it be done?  Sure.
 
  Can the idiots who invested millions in companies with a business plan
that
  involved *NO* revenue model make it?  No.

 What is doing extremely well? Do you know that from facts or you have
 just been told?

Number 1 volume seller of CDs on the 'net?  Amazon.com
Number 2:  CDBaby.com

Reference:
http://musicians.about.com/library/sellcds/blcdbaby.htm
(Follow Back to Retailers Index to read about his few competitors that are
still around)

And is Amazon even making money yet?  Last I heard, they were going to lose
only a few million this year. :-^

I would say that being #2 behind Amazon that's spent a bazillion dollars
promoting themselves and has lost money year after year that amounts to more
than the GNP of small countries is pretty good, wouldn't you?

And he doesn't even accept major label music -- only indie.  So, like, how
does he get to be #2?  He works his ass off and has a savvy business plan
that's good for his vendors (the musicians), and fair to his customers.

Just in case that's not enough, here are some more reasons that I know it's
successful.

#1. He has grown the company slowly from him and a friend part-time to six
(6) full-time employees.  Wanna see a picture of them?  It's on the site or
the companion site http://cdbaby.ORG  (.ORG is for musicians
behind-the-scenes info)
Meanwhile, his competitors (now defunct) spent VC money to hire 120 people
to do the same job...  Hmmm.  VC to hire 120 people overnight, or grow
slowly to 6.  Which one was the good business plan?
#2. He's been around for several years, survived all the dot-bombs, and has
(I think) acquired the content/inventory of a former competitor or two and
cut a deal to sell CDs for a complementery web-site (http://garageband.com).
#3. His competitors have almost all folded or laid off 80% of their staff.
He's had no layoffs.
#4. He sells ~10,000 CDs per month (more near Xmas).  He gets $4 a CD.  You
do the math.
#5. I've done some work for him.
#6. Never met a dissatisfied vendor, and I'm in contact with hundreds of
them.
#6b. Most of his competitors have many, many dissatisfied vendors, and I'm
in contact with them. :-|  You can review archives from just about any
music-related mailing list, and look for CDBaby, Amazon, The Orchard,
and CDStreet and so on.  I'll tell you now which one is always recommended
by virtually everybody.
#7. He has a chart online from his accountant of what he sold.  Some doofus
tried to sue him for false advertising.  He sent his books to the judge,
and the case was thrown out.  So that chart showing his sales of 10K units a
month is almost-for-sure not fake, eh?...
#8. I'm a satisfied vendor and customer.
#9. He's routinely invited to speak at music conferences, so I'm not alone
in my assessment.
#10. You can estimate what he spends on bandwidth etc, and employees, and
work it all out.  He ain't wealthy (yet), but his business is healthy.
#11. Visit the site.  You'll figure out why he's successful.  There's no BS
or huge over-blown hype.  Just CDs for sale.  Hell, find a CD you like and
buy it.  You'll understand even better why it's successful :-)  Try mine
first:  http://cdbaby.com/rosner  http://cdbaby.com/jademaze
#12. One of the artists (Of A Revolution) that was listed on the cover of
Performing Songwriter a few months ago derived much of their success and
sales from his site.  Getting your band name listed on the cover of
Performing Songwriter is not trivial.  Getting it there without major label
support is phenomenol.
#13.  He *UNDERSTANDS* his vendors, because he got started by needing a site
to sell his CDs.  He's the *ONLY* one who passes on the contact info for the
purchaser to the artist.  His TCO to get started as a vendor is minimal
($35+ 5CDs).  The $35 covers him scanning the artwork and RealAudio encoding
the songs, cuz he knows not every musician can do that easily/correctly.
His forms to fill in to sell a CD are designed for anybody to figure out.

I actually could go on with a lot more little stuff, but I reckon that's
more than enough :-)

 If they are really doing so well because they have a business plan with
 a revenue model, why do they succeed when others that also have a
 business plan with revenue model don't?

Which dot-bomb had a business plan, with a revenue model, which did *NOT*
involve going into heavy debt and blowing huge piles of VC money for several
years in a market-share grab on the 

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Egan

On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:52:33 -0500, Richard Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

Which dot-bomb had a business plan, with a revenue model, which did *NOT*
involve going into heavy debt and blowing huge piles of VC money for several
years in a market-share grab on the Internet, where the barrier to change
brands is one (1) click

Internet market share is an illusion when you can change brands with a
few clicks.  The only way to keep Internet customers is to provide
good service and products at competitive prices, and continue doing so
year after year.

It's virtually impossible for big corporations to compete on that
playing field, because their overhead costs are too high.  The only
way they can sell at a competitive price is to lose money on every
sale, a dead-end tactic that only works until you burn through all
your investors' cash.

Businesses need profit to survive.  So why would any business be
willing to lose money on a sale?  To gain Internet market share which
is an illusion in the first place?  Obviously, that's a fundamental
mistake made by many large corporations trying to grab Internet market
share.

Small businesses, like CDBaby, are the future of this market.


Egan




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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Zeev Suraski

Manuel,

I started answering your letter point by point, but stopped, as it wouldn't 
have gotten us anywhere.

I'm sorry if sharing my (IMHO very realistic) estimate of the PHP world 
seemed like an insult to you or anybody else.  Not everything that is done 
in the PHP world is of good quality.  PHP and the various services around 
it are not magical, and are not free of flaws.  It would be scary if it 
was.  I basically said it out loud.  Do I appreciate each and every effort 
made to improve PHP and the community around it?  Definitely.  Is 
everything that's done perfect?  No.  Some of the efforts are young, and 
will mature.  Some are just not that good.  Many are great.  I'm sorry you 
fail to understand that this is a tricky business and not blackwhite, and 
try to show my points in a very negative light.  Talking in theoretical 
terms is much easier than trying to work with the real-world resources and 
context, and picking realistic routes.

As for the GUI business, I'll repeat what I answered to others on this 
list, and on other lists, in many occassions.
First off, Perl and Python are *NOT* successful GUI platforms.  They may be 
feature complete, they may be very easy to use and develop (I don't use 
either, so I don't know) but in practice, they're completely negligible in 
the GUI world.  I don't think anybody has a good reason to believe this is 
going to change in a revolutionary manner.  Now, does the fact that I think 
that hurts the developers of Perl's and Python's GUI bindings?  I sure as 
hell hope it doesn't, and it doesn't, if they're realistic people.
I don't see the efforts made in the PHP-GUI front as fundamentally 
different.  It's useful, it's cool, it should be developed and improved, 
and no, it will not take over the world.

About a central resource of PHP sites that has a voting system - I think 
that's a good idea.  You're quite welcome to implement it if you 
volunteer.  www.php.net will happily host it.

Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello Zeev,

Zeev Suraski wrote:
 
 Manuel,
 
 I started answering your letter point by point, but stopped, as it wouldn't
 have gotten us anywhere.
 
 I'm sorry if sharing my (IMHO very realistic) estimate of the PHP world
 seemed like an insult to you or anybody else.  Not everything that is done

You don't have to be sorry. It is your point of view. You don't have to
agree. I don't feel insulted. I don't take difference of points of view
personally, if they are just that.


 in the PHP world is of good quality.  PHP and the various services around
 it are not magical, and are not free of flaws.  It would be scary if it
 was.  I basically said it out loud.  Do I appreciate each and every effort
 made to improve PHP and the community around it?  Definitely.  Is
 everything that's done perfect?  No.  Some of the efforts are young, and
 will mature.  Some are just not that good.  Many are great.  I'm sorry you
 fail to understand that this is a tricky business and not blackwhite, and
 try to show my points in a very negative light.  Talking in theoretical
 terms is much easier than trying to work with the real-world resources and
 context, and picking realistic routes.

Whoever hears you may even believe that Microsoft products and
supporting sites are successful because they don't have flaws. Sorry,
but honestely this sounds like an excuse for not doing it.



 As for the GUI business, I'll repeat what I answered to others on this
 list, and on other lists, in many occassions.
 First off, Perl and Python are *NOT* successful GUI platforms.  They may be
 feature complete, they may be very easy to use and develop (I don't use
 either, so I don't know) but in practice, they're completely negligible in
 the GUI world.  I don't think anybody has a good reason to believe this is
 going to change in a revolutionary manner.  Now, does the fact that I think
 that hurts the developers of Perl's and Python's GUI bindings?  I sure as
 hell hope it doesn't, and it doesn't, if they're realistic people.
 I don't see the efforts made in the PHP-GUI front as fundamentally
 different.  It's useful, it's cool, it should be developed and improved,
 and no, it will not take over the world.

The problem is not PHP-GUI capabilities being able to compete with other
languages. The problem is that you seem to be willing to omit them when
you present PHP as if it is something you don't want PHP be known for.

 
 About a central resource of PHP sites that has a voting system - I think
 that's a good idea.  You're quite welcome to implement it if you
 volunteer.  www.php.net will happily host it.

My point to suggest that was to help you to make it work according to a
criteria that you would accept. In the end it would to favor your cause,
which is the PHP future. I can't justify any time spent on that because
I don't depend on PHP for my professional future. Currently, I even do
not even program for a living. I manage people in a company that pays me
for managing software development projects.

In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP. This is my most
important point: to make PHP a credible well known solution in all
markets that it could be used with advantage.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Cristopher Daniluk

Manuel,

This thread is long since dead. Your points are respectfully taken by all of
us, but I for one believe you are missing a fundamental point. That in mind,
I've prepared a list of ubiquitous tools in use today. These tools are not
backed by big marketing budgets or Microsoft or anything of the like. Some
are represented in trade shows. Some don't say a word. Some have done crazy
things like you have suggested we do, like contests. Some are old, some are
relatively new. The only common thread they have is their success. Some went
down a road similar to what you've suggested. Some have gone down long
roads, some short. Many of the names you will see here today enjoy the
backing of corporations who have built their existence around the survival
(and thriving) of a technology which they did not create and do not own.

Apache
Sendmail
BIND
Perl
HTML/WWW
Python
Linux
C++

I hope you will consider the point I'm making here and leave this thread to
the winds. And for what it's worth, in passing, the reason PHP-GTK is not
mentioned when presenting PHP is that it isn't relevant. You won't win
hearts by dazzling them with irrelevant features. PHP-GTK is a great
project, but the world is slowly being captivated by the power of its web
capabilities, not buttons.

The


Regards,


Cristopher Daniluk
President  CEO
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822
web: http://www.dsnet.net/


-Original Message-
From: Manuel Lemos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


Hello Zeev,

Zeev Suraski wrote:

 Manuel,

 I started answering your letter point by point, but stopped, as it
wouldn't
 have gotten us anywhere.

 I'm sorry if sharing my (IMHO very realistic) estimate of the PHP world
 seemed like an insult to you or anybody else.  Not everything that is done

You don't have to be sorry. It is your point of view. You don't have to
agree. I don't feel insulted. I don't take difference of points of view
personally, if they are just that.


 in the PHP world is of good quality.  PHP and the various services around
 it are not magical, and are not free of flaws.  It would be scary if it
 was.  I basically said it out loud.  Do I appreciate each and every effort
 made to improve PHP and the community around it?  Definitely.  Is
 everything that's done perfect?  No.  Some of the efforts are young, and
 will mature.  Some are just not that good.  Many are great.  I'm sorry you
 fail to understand that this is a tricky business and not blackwhite, and
 try to show my points in a very negative light.  Talking in theoretical
 terms is much easier than trying to work with the real-world resources and
 context, and picking realistic routes.

Whoever hears you may even believe that Microsoft products and
supporting sites are successful because they don't have flaws. Sorry,
but honestely this sounds like an excuse for not doing it.



 As for the GUI business, I'll repeat what I answered to others on this
 list, and on other lists, in many occassions.
 First off, Perl and Python are *NOT* successful GUI platforms.  They may
be
 feature complete, they may be very easy to use and develop (I don't use
 either, so I don't know) but in practice, they're completely negligible in
 the GUI world.  I don't think anybody has a good reason to believe this is
 going to change in a revolutionary manner.  Now, does the fact that I
think
 that hurts the developers of Perl's and Python's GUI bindings?  I sure as
 hell hope it doesn't, and it doesn't, if they're realistic people.
 I don't see the efforts made in the PHP-GUI front as fundamentally
 different.  It's useful, it's cool, it should be developed and improved,
 and no, it will not take over the world.

The problem is not PHP-GUI capabilities being able to compete with other
languages. The problem is that you seem to be willing to omit them when
you present PHP as if it is something you don't want PHP be known for.


 About a central resource of PHP sites that has a voting system - I think
 that's a good idea.  You're quite welcome to implement it if you
 volunteer.  www.php.net will happily host it.

My point to suggest that was to help you to make it work according to a
criteria that you would accept. In the end it would to favor your cause,
which is the PHP future. I can't justify any time spent on that because
I don't depend on PHP for my professional future. Currently, I even do
not even program for a living. I manage people in a company that pays me
for managing software development projects.

In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
that would help me to make a good case

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-30 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 01:40 31-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
Whoever hears you may even believe that Microsoft products and
supporting sites are successful because they don't have flaws. Sorry,
but honestely this sounds like an excuse for not doing it.

Microsoft chooses which sites it links from microsoft.com *very* carefully 
- a very small select number of sites gets connected to it, and usually 
only for specific purposes (e.g., a specific article).  If you draw a 
comparison to the PHP world, you actually proved my point.

The problem is not PHP-GUI capabilities being able to compete with other
languages. The problem is that you seem to be willing to omit them when
you present PHP as if it is something you don't want PHP be known for.

I actually mention PHP-GTK in my sessions.  I mention it as an anecdote, 
much like I mention some of the other interesting modules and projects in 
PHP (e.g., PEAR).  I'm really not sure why people think I'm trying to bury 
PHP-GTK.  Just because I don't see PHP-GTK as a main course of PHP, doesn't 
mean I don't think it's an important and useful project.

In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP.

In the US (and perhaps in the rest of America), that's relatively 
true.  That's not the case in Europe or the far east.  It has a lot to do 
with mentality and corporate culture.

  This is my most
important point: to make PHP a credible well known solution in all
markets that it could be used with advantage.

I don't think you'd find anybody who would argue with you about that.

Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Frederick L. Steinkopf

Manuel,
Rather than whining about the future of PHP, why don't you be proactive and
take on the goal of raising the $100,000 for the project?
Fred Steinkopf

- Original Message -
From: Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


  These guys resort to these marketing tricks to promote Python as hell,
  and the PHP people just sits and waits doing almost nothing in
  comparision to promote PHP as hard as they can even when they lives
  depend on the acceptance of PHP as a wide spread language!

 Manuel, please, give this tirade a rest.  Nobody associated with Python
 development was involved in this amazing marketing trick you are
 referring to.  Somebody just decided to do this on their own.  And now you
 are criticizing the PHP developers for not having the same foresight as
 the Python developers?

 It says so right in their FAQ
 (http://software-carpentry.codesourcery.com/faq.html)

 And in answer to some of the more virulent postings on Usenet and in
  other venues, neither Guido van Rossum nor anyone else associated with
  Python development was involved in setting up this project, choosing the
  language, or defining the terms of the competition. Guido was only asked
  to be a judge after the decision to use Python had been made. If we
  had decided to use Perl or Tcl, we would obviously have invited Larry
  Wall or John Ousterhout to join the panel.

 If somebody wants to put up $100,000 for a PHP software contest, perfect,
 great, we will be every bit as cooperative as the Python developers.

 -Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 05:21 29-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
If when you mean pro-active you mean that's intentional and is all part
of a plan,
then  we agree. If you acted somehow to promote PHP and got some
unexpected results
(good or bad) that is still marketing although not pro-active.

Regardless of this definition, I meant the former.  It was quite 
intentional, we're working towards publishing articles about PHP and trying 
to get analysts to cover it.

If you are going to descriminate sites based on subjective criteria,
like matters of taste or points of view that vary greatly from person to
person, that is bad because you will certainly leave out contributions
that could help greatly PHP and in the end yourself.

It would certainly would make you look arrogant if you get to be picky
as if including some sites and not others you would be doing somebody
else a favor when the promotion that PHP gets from the sites will always
benefit you direct or indirectly.

But that's the problem, and that's why I think it's not necessarily a good 
idea.  Some people may feel it's arrogant, but it doesn't change the fact 
that some sites may result in PHP's brand going in the opposite 
direction.  Because there's no objective criteria and no jurisdiction, we 
won't have ways to avoid this, at least not without causing some people to 
feel very bad.

If I were you I certainly would not rule out sites with content that
overlaps others. Why not accept all sites that provide PHP articles? One
site may not be as good or as complete as other today, but they may
improve over time enough to be technically better than others that you
picked before. What would you do then? Accept what you refused before
and then discard what you accepted before? Doesn't seem to be a good
idea.

I think that you're forgetting where this whole discussion started.  If the 
idea is to make everybody feel good about themselves (which is a viable 
objective on its own) and be as 'fair' as possible, then what you wrote in 
this paragraph and in the two paragraphs before it makes perfect 
sense.  But that's not the goal you were talking about.  The goal is to 
push PHP, to market it, and to give it a good image.  Unfortunately, doing 
the 'nice-to-everybody' thing ('developer-oriented') does not go hand in 
hand with doing the right thing from a marketing perspective 
('consumer-oriented').  They're not mutually exclusive, not at all, but 
they're definitely not identical directions.

Anyway, in a Web ring banner you only promote a site at each banner
view. I don't see the problem of rotating banners of overlapped content.

The way I see it is that if it's too loose, it's useless.  It won't give 
PHP any professional feel or anything.  If it's more tight, then we're 
going to have to ensure that the sites are sync'd in terms of avoiding 
duplicate content, that they're all of good quality, etc.  This is *very* 
difficult to do in a world which is almost completely based on volunteer 
work.  I, for one, don't think we can demand *anything* from PHP community 
site webmasters - whatever they do to help PHP is good, and they should get 
to decide how much and in what ways they're willing to contribute.


  Things like that are usually not that simple, or in other words, they're
  easier said than done.  If done sloppily, they can have a negative
  effect.  And doing them correctly requires substantial efforts.

You sound bureacratic. You should feel honoured by the extra promotion
that all the PHP content sites give you because your business depends on
PHP acceptance in the market. Why make it hard for sites that are
willing to help you in the end?

Because I'm trying to look at the goal and look how we can try to achieve 
it, and be as realistic as possible about our chances.  Using a screwdriver 
to hammer a nail doesn't work, and I think that thinking that this Web ring 
would do the job of marketing PHP is over-optimistic.
Honor has nothing to do with it, and I think it's a great thing that there 
are lots of PHP web sites and a strong community behind it.

I think it is fair enough to make some base rules like don't be too
lame (define too lame), but almost everybody should be accepted.

If we go that route, you can call it in many ways, but marketing is not one 
of them :)



I guess you just say that because you were simply not affected by the
major Internet layoffs that happened in the latest months, so you don't
seem to have a great idea how bad this has been for so many people.

Of course the Internet is not gone. It just happens that the number of
companies with business depending on it was drastically reduced. So,
there aren't so much employment and business opportinities as before.
That's what I mean.

I'm quite aware of the serious slow down, I'm in the hi tech industry as 
well, remember? :)  It doesn't change the way the Web's future looks as a 
medium.  There was serious hype that caused a big balloon of hot air, which 
blew up.  But the medium itself 

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Alexander Skwar

So sprach »Manuel Lemos« am 2001-08-28 um 23:21:54 -0300 :
 Man, give it some time! How long was it since Andrei released PHP-GTK?
 How old is PHP now?

Exactly.  And also Perl wasn't made to create GUI apps, was it?  But
look how many Perl GUI apps there are out there now.  Eg. all (? at
least a lot) of the Mandrake configuration tools are in Perl, or cscmail
was/is made in Perl.

Just because PHP-GTK might not be mature YET, does not mean that it will
never be.

Alexander Skwar
-- 
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

  These guys resort to these marketing tricks to promote Python as hell,
  and the PHP people just sits and waits doing almost nothing in
  comparision to promote PHP as hard as they can even when they lives
  depend on the acceptance of PHP as a wide spread language!
 
 Manuel, please, give this tirade a rest.  Nobody associated with Python
 development was involved in this amazing marketing trick you are
 referring to.  Somebody just decided to do this on their own.  And now you
 are criticizing the PHP developers for not having the same foresight as
 the Python developers?

Yes. I feel that it is a constructive criticism, like saying, there are
plenty of ways to market PHP, with or without money, but what you do in
comparision is very little to what Python people do. So, you need to do
more. I am not saying that what you do is wrong.


 
 It says so right in their FAQ
 (http://software-carpentry.codesourcery.com/faq.html)
 
 And in answer to some of the more virulent postings on Usenet and in
  other venues, neither Guido van Rossum nor anyone else associated with
  Python development was involved in setting up this project, choosing the
  language, or defining the terms of the competition. Guido was only asked
  to be a judge after the decision to use Python had been made. If we
  had decided to use Perl or Tcl, we would obviously have invited Larry
  Wall or John Ousterhout to join the panel.

What this says is something like if applied to PHP, what we are doing
was not Rasmus initiative, although he accepted to be a judge in the
contest. That doesn't matter, they are still committed to market Python
like hell. 

 
 If somebody wants to put up $100,000 for a PHP software contest, perfect,
 great, we will be every bit as cooperative as the Python developers.

Money doesn't come that easily. You have to go after it if you feel it
is needed. What won't help is staying there and do nothing, because I
think the money won't come to you from the sky. You need to find
sponsors. I'm sure it won't be hard if you really bother to look for
them.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Cristopher Daniluk

I don't understand when this thread became so focused on monetary needs. We
are talking about penetrating corporate markets, and all corporate markets
care about is time to market, cost of maintenance, and long term support.
Not that marketing is worthless, but if we build a better product, it will
be used whether we do some Houdini use-our-product marketing game or not.
The future of PHP will be determined by the dedication and sacrifice of the
developers associated with it. Every success is measured in sacrifice. In
the realm of Java and .NET it is primarily a monetary sacrifice - they could
have spent that money on something else, but elected to spend it on this
instead. Every member of the PHP team could have spent their time on
something else, but chose this. This continued dedication will yield just as
much success in the long run. The true reason that Java gets a huge boost
from marketing is that marketing creates the labor market of qualified
people by encouraging people to retrain based on a perceived market for the
technology. It is the perception that creates the market. Voodoo economics
at its best.

As I said before, PHP is already discussed in the corporate circles that
matter, and the recurring theme is getting qualified people to do it. Sure,
experienced Java or C or ASP (bleh) gurus could retrain easily and be able
to handle PHP with no trouble. Who cares? They're not there yet. That
affects time to market. When we look at pure numbers, there is a direct
correlation between the corporate growth of PHP and the labor market of PHP
developers. While we cannot create a labor market out of perceptual metrics,
we have, in my opinion, the strongest and most comprehensive web scripting
language on the planet, and that will make the future of PHP bright and
limitless. The never ending dedication of the hundreds of developers and the
thousands of people preaching its wonders will ultimately propel us to the
front page of every buzzword magazine in circulation. This will happen
whether we have silly games, spend a billion dollars on ad campaigns, build
trade show booths that look like space rockets, or give away door prizes for
making tricky code.

Manuel, I can only urge you to focus on reality instead of Utopia. We have a
better product and that is all we have. The good news? That's all we need.
Maybe a little patience and some free pizza too, but that's neither here nor
there. Economics says so.

Regards,


Cristopher Daniluk
President  CEO
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822
web: http://www.dsnet.net/


-Original Message-
From: Manuel Lemos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


Hello,

  These guys resort to these marketing tricks to promote Python as hell,
  and the PHP people just sits and waits doing almost nothing in
  comparision to promote PHP as hard as they can even when they lives
  depend on the acceptance of PHP as a wide spread language!

 Manuel, please, give this tirade a rest.  Nobody associated with Python
 development was involved in this amazing marketing trick you are
 referring to.  Somebody just decided to do this on their own.  And now you
 are criticizing the PHP developers for not having the same foresight as
 the Python developers?

Yes. I feel that it is a constructive criticism, like saying, there are
plenty of ways to market PHP, with or without money, but what you do in
comparision is very little to what Python people do. So, you need to do
more. I am not saying that what you do is wrong.



 It says so right in their FAQ
 (http://software-carpentry.codesourcery.com/faq.html)

 And in answer to some of the more virulent postings on Usenet and in
  other venues, neither Guido van Rossum nor anyone else associated with
  Python development was involved in setting up this project, choosing the
  language, or defining the terms of the competition. Guido was only asked
  to be a judge after the decision to use Python had been made. If we
  had decided to use Perl or Tcl, we would obviously have invited Larry
  Wall or John Ousterhout to join the panel.

What this says is something like if applied to PHP, what we are doing
was not Rasmus initiative, although he accepted to be a judge in the
contest. That doesn't matter, they are still committed to market Python
like hell.


 If somebody wants to put up $100,000 for a PHP software contest, perfect,
 great, we will be every bit as cooperative as the Python developers.

Money doesn't come that easily. You have to go after it if you feel it
is needed. What won't help is staying there and do nothing, because I
think the money won't come to you from the sky. You need to find
sponsors. I'm sure it won't be hard if you really bother to look for
them.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Frederick L. Steinkopf wrote:
 
 Manuel,
 Rather than whining about the future of PHP, why don't you be proactive and
 take on the goal of raising the $100,000 for the project?

Because I do not depend on the PHP future for my professional life. That
is a role for PHP core developers that only dedicate to PHP.

Anyway, if you followed the whole thread from the beginning, you would
noticed that I developed the PHP Classes repository. It is a site that
lets developers post their PHP components in the form of PHP classes.
Everytime a developer posts a new class, a notification message is sent
to the site subscribers. The site has now over 42.000 subscribers. Over
300 classes have been contributed by the about 200 authors.

This is a great place for developers get immediate exposure of their
work and for users to find some freely available ready to use components
for their PHP applications. I developed this site originally to
distribute my own PHP classes, but while I was at it I decided to make
it a place for other developers to distribute theirs. So, this helps PHP
being promoted by providing compensation to both the developers and the
users.

This was all planned ahead. The users are required to login to download.
That way I can account acurately the number of users that downloaded the
classes. This way I can compute acurate top download charts, creating a
sort of hall of fame for the most popular PHP Classes and the authors
that contributed them. I antecipated that this way I would be providing
recognition to PHP and all the authors that contributed because in the
end I would have real figures to show to those that doubt of PHP
acceptance.

How much is that worth if you had money to put up front to promote PHP
with a normal marketing campaign? Maybe more that $100.000. If I just
think of the work envolved in the development of the site for all these
two years, it would probably cost more.

I don't do more because I really can't justify putting more time because
these days my professional life does not revolve around PHP, not even
for the Web. Since I really can't do it, coming here expressing my
points on what should be done is much better than nothing.

People that know me, are aware that once in a while I bother to speak up
for the best of PHP, proposing new ways to go and warning about things
that are not being properly addressed. If you look back in the mailing
list archives you will notice that I am often fought by people that
refuse to agree with me, maybe because they are responsible for not
having done what I am proposing or for some reason they don't like to
give me the reason that what I say the right way to go, despite probably
some agree but don't want to admit it.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, as long as something gets done and the future
is brighter for PHP and all those that depend on it. So, history
demonstrated that despite things are not done exactly as I proposed,
something is done, which is better than nothing. I think this is being
proactive, because I am acting with the intention of causing some
progress. It does not cost me money directly, but the intention and the
good consequences are what matter.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

  one assumption you seem to have is the ongoing viability of php (if not
 the very livelihood of we the developers using php) is somehow a function
 of the number of folks who know what php is. that somehow the more folks
 know about php, the better php gets. it also seems that you feel 'the PHP
 people' are not putting forth enough effort to further php's acceptance and
 viability.
 
  from my point of view as a developer using php, recognition of php in the
 corporate world is not as important as how good php is. i prefer to see
 efforts focused on developing the best darn HTML-embedded scripting
 language this side of the railroad tracks. whether or not php gets talked
 about on the evening news doesn't really matter. what matters is whether
 php helps me as a programmer. i don't care how many folks recognize the
 power of php. i care about the power of php. the number of folks using php
 is a function of whether or not 'the PHP people' can continue to produce
 such rockin' code over the next few years. not the other way around.
 
  i imagine you have a unique perspective on the effort it takes to promote
 php. but, i'm guessing that 'the PHP people' probably do as well. i myself
 am unduly grateful for the effort that they put forth, not only in
 producing the rockin'st language anyone could have hoped for when learning
 to program, but in promoting php as well. when i saw php was featured at
 the open source convention in san jose, i knew things were moving along
 just fine. that's the kind of promotion i want to see. i believe 'the PHP
 people' should be allowed to promote php in a manner they are comfortable
 with. after all, it's their itch.
 
  ya know, making the best HTML-embedded scripting language seems a pretty
 noble goal to me.

If you read my messages in the thread from the beginning you can see
that basically the current problems of PHP in its acceptance are more
with the people view of PHP than about its technical abilities. It is a
known fact that PHP is very good for Web programming. The problem is
that not everybody that could use PHP knows or is so sure about it. That
is why PHP needs to be better marketed.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 15:19 29-08-01, Alexander Skwar wrote:
So sprach »Manuel Lemos« am 2001-08-28 um 23:21:54 -0300 :
  Man, give it some time! How long was it since Andrei released PHP-GTK?
  How old is PHP now?

Exactly.  And also Perl wasn't made to create GUI apps, was it?  But
look how many Perl GUI apps there are out there now.

I've yet to see one, which doesn't come to say that they don't exist (you 
named a couple) - but does come to say that Perl did not succeed at 
becoming a serious contended in the GUI market.

As I told Manuel, the issue isn't *time*, but *timing*.  If PHP's goal was 
to become a serious contended in the GUI app market (which it was not) - it 
long missed this opportunity.  GUI applications of PHP are cool, can be 
very useful, especially to people who already know PHP.  However, assuming 
that it would ever catch a significant share of the GUI market is naive, IMHO.

Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf

 If you read my messages in the thread from the beginning you can see
 that basically the current problems of PHP in its acceptance are more
 with the people view of PHP than about its technical abilities. It is a
 known fact that PHP is very good for Web programming. The problem is
 that not everybody that could use PHP knows or is so sure about it. That
 is why PHP needs to be better marketed.

Well, at least some of us are spending a whole lot of time getting in
front of people and showing them how useful PHP is.  For the month of
August I have seen my wife a total of 5 days.  In July I saw her about 9
days.  The rest of the time I was on the road and in front of people
showing them how cool PHP is or sometimes I was home and she was on the
road.  Just to give you an idea.  A list of recent talks and
presentations:

June:

 - Conference in Porto Alegre, Brazil
 - University in Lajeado, Brazil
 - Large government institution in Porto Alegre, Brazil
 - Linux User Group in Toronto, Canada
 - Linux Expo - Montreal, Canada
 - PHP User Group in Boston
 - SoftwareLivre conference in Montevideo, Uruguay

July:

 - Talk and PHP booth at LinuxTag, Stuttgart Germany
 - Tutorial and session at OSCON in San Diego
 - Seminar in Herndon, Virginia

August

 - Seminar in Pittsburgh
 - Seminar in Atlanta
 - PHP User Group meeting in Atlanta
 - Seminar in San Francisco
 - Seminar in Portland
 - Seminar in Austin
 - Seminar in Minneapolis
 - 6 hours of tutorials at LinuxWorld in San Francisco

And the next 3 months look just as busy.

The seminars were geared at semi-technical business managers and were held
in conjunction with Nusphere.  I also had an article in Linux Magazine
during this time.

And by the way, this is not my job.  I do not get paid for this, nor does
my future in any way depend on PHP.  PHP happens to be the most visible
thing I am involved in and people assume that my life therefore must
revolve around it.  That actually is not true.

If you don't think I and others involved in PHP development is doing
enough to promote PHP that is fine.  And suggestions are welcome.  But
telling us that we are sitting on our hands watching the world pass us by
without doing anything at all is rather insulting.  Especially given the
amount of time I have personally spent sitting on crummy airplanes in the
past year or two for the sole purpose of promoting PHP.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Ninety-Nine Ways To Die

I attended one of your conferences / training sessions, the Linux Conference in NYC, 
and I have to say it was excellent, and certainly motivational. Through that one day 
of your speech it motivated me enough to get off my bum and start using PHP in our 
environment for whatever we possibly could... and we have been pretty sucessful in the 
short time we've been implementing it. The ease of use, ease of learning, and overall 
excellent design of the language has made it a pleasure to use... And I recommend it 
to customers now, any one that is willing to listen to me blabber more than 2 minutes.

--Matthew

PS: The power of open source is not in the advertising... it's in the product, which 
makes it all the more worthwhile.


--

On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:03:21  
 Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
 If you read my messages in the thread from the beginning you can see
 that basically the current problems of PHP in its acceptance are more
 with the people view of PHP than about its technical abilities. It is a
 known fact that PHP is very good for Web programming. The problem is
 that not everybody that could use PHP knows or is so sure about it. That
 is why PHP needs to be better marketed.

Well, at least some of us are spending a whole lot of time getting in
front of people and showing them how useful PHP is.  For the month of
August I have seen my wife a total of 5 days.  In July I saw her about 9
days.  The rest of the time I was on the road and in front of people
showing them how cool PHP is or sometimes I was home and she was on the
road.  Just to give you an idea.  A list of recent talks and
presentations:

June:

 - Conference in Porto Alegre, Brazil
 - University in Lajeado, Brazil
 - Large government institution in Porto Alegre, Brazil
 - Linux User Group in Toronto, Canada
 - Linux Expo - Montreal, Canada
 - PHP User Group in Boston
 - SoftwareLivre conference in Montevideo, Uruguay

July:

 - Talk and PHP booth at LinuxTag, Stuttgart Germany
 - Tutorial and session at OSCON in San Diego
 - Seminar in Herndon, Virginia

August

 - Seminar in Pittsburgh
 - Seminar in Atlanta
 - PHP User Group meeting in Atlanta
 - Seminar in San Francisco
 - Seminar in Portland
 - Seminar in Austin
 - Seminar in Minneapolis
 - 6 hours of tutorials at LinuxWorld in San Francisco

And the next 3 months look just as busy.

The seminars were geared at semi-technical business managers and were held
in conjunction with Nusphere.  I also had an article in Linux Magazine
during this time.

And by the way, this is not my job.  I do not get paid for this, nor does
my future in any way depend on PHP.  PHP happens to be the most visible
thing I am involved in and people assume that my life therefore must
revolve around it.  That actually is not true.

If you don't think I and others involved in PHP development is doing
enough to promote PHP that is fine.  And suggestions are welcome.  But
telling us that we are sitting on our hands watching the world pass us by
without doing anything at all is rather insulting.  Especially given the
amount of time I have personally spent sitting on crummy airplanes in the
past year or two for the sole purpose of promoting PHP.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Jeff Lewis

Damn, I wish I had read that thre was this event in Toronto, I would have
liked to attend! :)

  - Linux User Group in Toronto, Canada

I agree, suggestion and constructive criticism are fine but lets not start
attacking the guys who have put in countless hours to make PHP what it is
today.  I'm sure they will take in suggestions and do as much as humanly
possible to keep everyone happy ;)

 telling us that we are sitting on our hands watching the world pass us by
 without doing anything at all is rather insulting.  Especially given the
 amount of time I have personally spent sitting on crummy airplanes in the
 past year or two for the sole purpose of promoting PHP.

 -Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Alexander Skwar

So sprach »Zeev Suraski« am 2001-08-29 um 19:43:15 +0300 :
 very useful, especially to people who already know PHP.  However, assuming 
 that it would ever catch a significant share of the GUI market is naive, 
 IMHO.

Well, my point was, that at the beginning of the Perl-GTK binding,
noone would have guessed that Perl EVER might be a useful GUI
programming language (at least I suppose so).

I'm also not saying that PHP has to be actively pushed in this
direction.  Not at all.  I'm quite with you that PHP should focus on
it's Web-abilities.

However, I don't think it's right to say that this will never ever
happen, like you do.  And I also do think, that it's counter-productive
from you to say something like this.  I mean, it would be okay (with
me), if you kinda ignored this.  But what's so bad about PHP-GTK that
you speak so strongly against it?  

Alexander Skwar
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello Zeev,

Zeev Suraski wrote:
 If you are going to descriminate sites based on subjective criteria,
 like matters of taste or points of view that vary greatly from person to
 person, that is bad because you will certainly leave out contributions
 that could help greatly PHP and in the end yourself.
 
 It would certainly would make you look arrogant if you get to be picky
 as if including some sites and not others you would be doing somebody
 else a favor when the promotion that PHP gets from the sites will always
 benefit you direct or indirectly.
 
 But that's the problem, and that's why I think it's not necessarily a good
 idea.  Some people may feel it's arrogant, but it doesn't change the fact
 that some sites may result in PHP's brand going in the opposite
 direction.  Because there's no objective criteria and no jurisdiction, we
 won't have ways to avoid this, at least not without causing some people to
 feel very bad.

So what you are going to do about it? Nothing? 

If you don't want to risk hurting people just accept as much sites as
you can with a minimum of requirements and along with the Web ring have
a vote facility that lets the user be the judge of the quality of the
sites and then periodically publish PHP content sites rankings by user
votes. I'm sure this will foster the continuous improvement of the
quality of the sites because every site maintainer with an ego will want
to look good in the rankings.

 
 If I were you I certainly would not rule out sites with content that
 overlaps others. Why not accept all sites that provide PHP articles? One
 site may not be as good or as complete as other today, but they may
 improve over time enough to be technically better than others that you
 picked before. What would you do then? Accept what you refused before
 and then discard what you accepted before? Doesn't seem to be a good
 idea.
 
 I think that you're forgetting where this whole discussion started.  If the
 idea is to make everybody feel good about themselves (which is a viable
 objective on its own) and be as 'fair' as possible, then what you wrote in
 this paragraph and in the two paragraphs before it makes perfect
 sense.  But that's not the goal you were talking about.  The goal is to
 push PHP, to market it, and to give it a good image.  Unfortunately, doing
 the 'nice-to-everybody' thing ('developer-oriented') does not go hand in
 hand with doing the right thing from a marketing perspective
 ('consumer-oriented').  They're not mutually exclusive, not at all, but
 they're definitely not identical directions.

Man, you are not getting my point. The idea to accept as much sites as
you can is to foster a competition between all the sites that can
provide any sort of content to the PHP developers giving a great sense
of support to the users, being either effective users or users in
potential that are evaluating the language and are in doubt about the
support they may get from the PHP community.

Anyway, addressing the potential of PHP promotion originated by PHP
content sites, is only part of needs to be done. You definitely need to
address the media in a way that they provide PHP more exposure.

Not only you need to foster technical article writing, but you also need
to give the media some food that they like, basically hot news. You
may not give much importance to that, but I thing at least part of the
qualified media would like to hear about hot new extensions that are
available at each release or are under development. This will provide
much page views to PHP in a medium that is not specific of PHP.

 
 Anyway, in a Web ring banner you only promote a site at each banner
 view. I don't see the problem of rotating banners of overlapped content.
 
 The way I see it is that if it's too loose, it's useless.  It won't give
 PHP any professional feel or anything.  If it's more tight, then we're
 going to have to ensure that the sites are sync'd in terms of avoiding
 duplicate content, that they're all of good quality, etc.  This is *very*
 difficult to do in a world which is almost completely based on volunteer
 work.  I, for one, don't think we can demand *anything* from PHP community
 site webmasters - whatever they do to help PHP is good, and they should get
 to decide how much and in what ways they're willing to contribute.

What I have written above addresses this challenge. Anyway, there is a
lot more that can be done. You just need to focus on ideas that promote
PHP, hopefully without spending much money, time or any other sort of
effort. In that sense what you need to do is to invest on viral ideas,
meaning ideas that spread by themselves automatically.

About this idea, I recommend this book, if you haven't yet read it:
Unleashing the Idea Virus by Seth Godin, former Yahoo marketing
director.

The book is about what is a viral idea and how to create one that will
succeed. The book is freely available in different electronic formats
from here. Give it a try, it is worthy.


Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 20:23 29-08-01, Alexander Skwar wrote:
However, I don't think it's right to say that this will never ever
happen, like you do.  And I also do think, that it's counter-productive
from you to say something like this.  I mean, it would be okay (with
me), if you kinda ignored this.  But what's so bad about PHP-GTK that
you speak so strongly against it?

I am *not* speaking against it, not strongly or or otherwise.  I'm really 
not :)
As a matter of fact, some parts in the Zend Engine 2 are going to address 
issues that Andrei (that wrote the PHP-GTK module).  I think that the 
ability to develop GUI apps using PHP is very cool, and I'm pretty sure 
that PHP developers who need to develop simple (as in control-based) GUI's 
are very likely to do it in PHP-GTK, which is good.

What I *am* saying is that GUI apps are not PHP's main strength, and thus, 
should not be its main focus.  If we try to push and market PHP, we should 
pick reasonable objectives - and pushing it as a platform is much more 
attainable than as a good-for-everything language.  This objective is quite 
ambitious on its own.

Zeev


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Dan Harrington


He said:

 PS: The power of open source is not in the advertising... it's in the product, which 
 makes it all the more worthwhile.

I'm just waiting to see a PHP billboard.  I'm telling you, wouldn't it be
a blast?  I'd drive the long way to work every day just to drive by it
and tip my hat.  Or maybe be sitting in a crowded train station waiting
for the next train and hear people talking about the latest version of PHP.

Or a TV commercial like Sony laptop's latest, with the airline pilots and
support crew saying SIR! THIS PLANE CAN NOT MOVE UNTIL YOU PUT THE PHP AWAY!


 -Original Message-
 From: Ninety-Nine Ways To Die [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 11:18 AM
 To: Manuel Lemos; Rasmus Lerdorf
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP
 
 
 I attended one of your conferences / training sessions, the Linux Conference in NYC, 
and 
 I have to say it was excellent, and certainly motivational. Through that one day of 
your 
 speech it motivated me enough to get off my bum and start using PHP in our 
environment 
 for whatever we possibly could... and we have been pretty sucessful in the short 
time 
 we've been implementing it. The ease of use, ease of learning, and overall excellent 
 design of the language has made it a pleasure to use... And I recommend it to 
customers 
 now, any one that is willing to listen to me blabber more than 2 minutes.
 
 --Matthew
 
 
 
 --
 
 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:03:21  
  Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
  If you read my messages in the thread from the beginning you can see
  that basically the current problems of PHP in its acceptance are more
  with the people view of PHP than about its technical abilities. It is a
  known fact that PHP is very good for Web programming. The problem is
  that not everybody that could use PHP knows or is so sure about it. That
  is why PHP needs to be better marketed.
 
 Well, at least some of us are spending a whole lot of time getting in
 front of people and showing them how useful PHP is.  For the month of
 August I have seen my wife a total of 5 days.  In July I saw her about 9
 days.  The rest of the time I was on the road and in front of people
 showing them how cool PHP is or sometimes I was home and she was on the
 road.  Just to give you an idea.  A list of recent talks and
 presentations:
 
 June:
 
  - Conference in Porto Alegre, Brazil
  - University in Lajeado, Brazil
  - Large government institution in Porto Alegre, Brazil
  - Linux User Group in Toronto, Canada
  - Linux Expo - Montreal, Canada
  - PHP User Group in Boston
  - SoftwareLivre conference in Montevideo, Uruguay
 
 July:
 
  - Talk and PHP booth at LinuxTag, Stuttgart Germany
  - Tutorial and session at OSCON in San Diego
  - Seminar in Herndon, Virginia
 
 August
 
  - Seminar in Pittsburgh
  - Seminar in Atlanta
  - PHP User Group meeting in Atlanta
  - Seminar in San Francisco
  - Seminar in Portland
  - Seminar in Austin
  - Seminar in Minneapolis
  - 6 hours of tutorials at LinuxWorld in San Francisco
 
 And the next 3 months look just as busy.
 
 The seminars were geared at semi-technical business managers and were held
 in conjunction with Nusphere.  I also had an article in Linux Magazine
 during this time.
 
 And by the way, this is not my job.  I do not get paid for this, nor does
 my future in any way depend on PHP.  PHP happens to be the most visible
 thing I am involved in and people assume that my life therefore must
 revolve around it.  That actually is not true.
 
 If you don't think I and others involved in PHP development is doing
 enough to promote PHP that is fine.  And suggestions are welcome.  But
 telling us that we are sitting on our hands watching the world pass us by
 without doing anything at all is rather insulting.  Especially given the
 amount of time I have personally spent sitting on crummy airplanes in the
 past year or two for the sole purpose of promoting PHP.
 
 -Rasmus
 
 
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
 
  If you read my messages in the thread from the beginning you can see
  that basically the current problems of PHP in its acceptance are more
  with the people view of PHP than about its technical abilities. It is a
  known fact that PHP is very good for Web programming. The problem is
  that not everybody that could use PHP knows or is so sure about it. That
  is why PHP needs to be better marketed.
 
 Well, at least some of us are spending a whole lot of time getting in
 front of people and showing them how useful PHP is.  For the month of
 August I have seen my wife a total of 5 days.  In July I saw her about 9
 days.  The rest of the time I was on the road and in front of people
 showing them how cool PHP is or sometimes I was home and she was on the
 road.  Just to give you an idea.  A list of recent talks and
 presentations:

Nobody was questioning your commitment to promote PHP, but that hardly
address the problem of making PHP a credible choice for development
before people that could be using it with advantage but hardly are using
it because they hardly know about it.

The talks that you give are for people that already know about PHP. The
people, in special the corporations, even don't know about PHP to be
bothered to attend. You can't just expect people to follow you where you
are if they even don't know PHP as a language with reputation,
especially in the corporate world dominated by Microsoft stuff. That is
what I telling you to address.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Alexander Skwar

So sprach »Zeev Suraski« am 2001-08-29 um 20:32:32 +0300 :
 What I *am* saying is that GUI apps are not PHP's main strength, and thus, 
 should not be its main focus.  If we try to push and market PHP, we should 
 pick reasonable objectives - and pushing it as a platform is much more 
 attainable than as a good-for-everything language.  This objective is quite 
 ambitious on its own.

Okay, then I'd like to appologize.  I misunderstood you.  In this case,
I agree to everything you said.

Alexander Skwar
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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Brian Tanner

Hey, you guys keep coming to Calgary , Alberta, Canada.

Stop by Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada!

Brian Tanner
Project Manager
Zaam Internet Solutions
Toll Free: 1-866-225-2675
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.zaam.com

-Original Message-
From: pierre-yves [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 29, 2001 11:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


Grrr !! same for me, I never knew you were in Montreal,
 - Linux Expo - Montreal, Canada

Now I see why the calandar is so useful on php.net !!

py
p.s. in june I was probably too busy at the jazz festival tho :)


- Original Message -
From: Jeff Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


 Damn, I wish I had read that thre was this event in Toronto, I would have
 liked to attend! :)

   - Linux User Group in Toronto, Canada

 I agree, suggestion and constructive criticism are fine but lets not start
 attacking the guys who have put in countless hours to make PHP what it is
 today.  I'm sure they will take in suggestions and do as much as humanly
 possible to keep everyone happy ;)

  telling us that we are sitting on our hands watching the world pass us
by
  without doing anything at all is rather insulting.  Especially given the
  amount of time I have personally spent sitting on crummy airplanes in
the
  past year or two for the sole purpose of promoting PHP.
 
  -Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf

 The talks that you give are for people that already know about PHP.

No they aren't.  As I said in my message, the seminar series I did were
specifically for people who knew nothing about PHP and it was presented
alongside other technologies.  But yes, the people would have to have had
some interest in web stuff or database stuff to have bothered to attend in
the first place.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Miles Thompson


Could we cool it down a little ... maybe let a day go by before hitting 
Send once more on this thread?

Attacking Rasmus and Zeev is counterproductive, and it's starting to sound 
pretty hostile. The whole PHP development team is doing a fantastic job. 
(Even though I didn't understand quite how shared objects work. g )

We're the other part of the team: implementers, developers and - yes - 
promoters. We're the ones which actually prove, not just that PHP works, 
but that it is effective, economical and productive. It's our 
responsibility to promote it and use it. We can do that by:
   - talking about our work and the tools we use to technical groups.
   - talking about our vision and the practical application of open source 
software to everyday business and scientific problems at meetings of 
Rotary, Chambers of Commerce, Kinsmen, Lions, etc..
   - by always emphasizing the BENEFITS of PHP

We're the ones on the ground, the evangelists. To reach business people we 
have to go and talk to them, expressing our goals in their language. 
Managers live by their ears, and are very responsive to what they hear, 
from sales reps, other managers at the same level, subordinates, general 
chat at association meetings, etc. They tend to not do a lot of reading, 
certainly they don't have time to browse a bunch of web sites. They are 
able to authorize pilot projects, just to see if something works or is as 
good as it claims to be.

We have to create some buzz. Ironically, we don't necessarily do that by 
promoting PHP explicitly, but by emphasizing results and benefits from the 
sites we develop. We then have opportunity to promote the tools used to 
achieve those results.

Regards - Miles Thompson

At 02:46 PM 8/29/01 -0300, you wrote:
Hello,

Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
 
   If you read my messages in the thread from the beginning you can see
   that basically the current problems of PHP in its acceptance are more
   with the people view of PHP than about its technical abilities. It is a
   known fact that PHP is very good for Web programming. The problem is
   that not everybody that could use PHP knows or is so sure about it. That
   is why PHP needs to be better marketed.
 
  Well, at least some of us are spending a whole lot of time getting in
  front of people and showing them how useful PHP is.  For the month of
  August I have seen my wife a total of 5 days.  In July I saw her about 9
  days.  The rest of the time I was on the road and in front of people
  showing them how cool PHP is or sometimes I was home and she was on the
  road.  Just to give you an idea.  A list of recent talks and
  presentations:

Nobody was questioning your commitment to promote PHP, but that hardly
address the problem of making PHP a credible choice for development
before people that could be using it with advantage but hardly are using
it because they hardly know about it.

The talks that you give are for people that already know about PHP. The
people, in special the corporations, even don't know about PHP to be
bothered to attend. You can't just expect people to follow you where you
are if they even don't know PHP as a language with reputation,
especially in the corporate world dominated by Microsoft stuff. That is
what I telling you to address.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-29 Thread Cristopher Daniluk

While I don't want to tear down Manuel Lemos or some of the good points he's
made, I think it would be helpful to hope that he's been to a PHP talk.
Likewise, he makes several pointed views on why it is important to follow
the outline he's set forth for a product to be successful. Some credence
could be added to these arguments if it were backed by either a clear
logical explanation, or some relevant reference to work experience and/or
education. Right now, I think a lot of us are stabbing in the air trying to
agree with everything you're saying.

I think you fail to understand the phenomenal success PHP has had in the
last 2-3 years. I see it in every aspect of reality. Netcraft shows booming
charts, the #php efnet channel has sweltered from a few dozen people at most
to over 165 as I write this email. The mailing lists are unmanageable
they're so high traffic. I can walk into a job, suggest PHP, and not be met
by a bunch of questioning What the hell is 'PHP' looks. I can go to the
bookstore and select from any one of probably 15 PHP books. I can go onto
monster.com, pop in PHP, and get a plethora of results--compared to none
about 16 months ago. To me, PHP will always be the project I watched grow
into a juggernaut in front of my eyes. I'm proud of Zeev, Andi, Rasmus, and
the rest of the team and all they've accomplished. I frequently regret not
being able to dedicate myself to the success of the project like they do. I
do not know what you define as success, but surely this has got to be it.
The best thing? The project has attained critical mass now. It's going to
keep growing and growing and growing no matter how poor of a job you think
everyone is doing. It may be able to grow a little faster if we do a dance
and spend a million bucks, but its going to grow sooner or later either way.

Just think, someday I'd like to think our children will be coding in PHP.

Regards,


Cristopher Daniluk
President  CEO
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822
web: http://www.dsnet.net/


-Original Message-
From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:10 PM
To: Manuel Lemos
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


 The talks that you give are for people that already know about PHP.

No they aren't.  As I said in my message, the seminar series I did were
specifically for people who knew nothing about PHP and it was presented
alongside other technologies.  But yes, the people would have to have had
some interest in web stuff or database stuff to have bothered to attend in
the first place.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-28 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello Zeev,

Zeev Suraski wrote:
 
 At 23:02 26-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
 I don't think we have the same understanding of what is marketing. For
 me, marketing is being proactive in terms of promoting something before
 the potential market. Seeing people advocating PHP or analysts covering
 PHP here and there is not proactive at all. It is a result of the
 evolution of PHP capabilities, but it was not something that was
 especifically planned.
 
 Well, that's not quite true.  The analysts that are beginning to show
 interest are a result of efforts being made in certain companies.  As for
 advocating, I specifically mentioned companies and not people, which is
 what makes it pro-active.  I think our definitions for marketing are quite
 similar :)

If when you mean pro-active you mean that's intentional and is all part
of a plan,
then  we agree. If you acted somehow to promote PHP and got some
unexpected results
(good or bad) that is still marketing although not pro-active.

 
   At any rate, suggestions will be welcome.  I've seen the Web Developer Ring
   you suggested, and I think it's worth thinking (the reason I'm not going
   wild with enthusiasm is that I think it also has drawbacks, not only
   advantages).
 
 I don't know what drawbacks do you see, but let's discuss it openly.
 
 Well, not all of the sites are of the same quality and enjoy the same
 maintenance level.  Such sites may have a good audience and may be a good
 service, but they won't necessarily do a good job at presenting PHP.  They
 may (will) also overlap in content, which would also not look very
 professional either.

If you are going to descriminate sites based on subjective criteria,
like matters of taste or points of view that vary greatly from person to
person, that is bad because you will certainly leave out contributions
that could help greatly PHP and in the end yourself.

It would certainly would make you look arrogant if you get to be picky
as if including some sites and not others you would be doing somebody
else a favor when the promotion that PHP gets from the sites will always
benefit you direct or indirectly.

If I were you I certainly would not rule out sites with content that
overlaps others. Why not accept all sites that provide PHP articles? One
site may not be as good or as complete as other today, but they may
improve over time enough to be technically better than others that you
picked before. What would you do then? Accept what you refused before
and then discard what you accepted before? Doesn't seem to be a good
idea.

Anyway, in a Web ring banner you only promote a site at each banner
view. I don't see the problem of rotating banners of overlapped content.


 Things like that are usually not that simple, or in other words, they're
 easier said than done.  If done sloppily, they can have a negative
 effect.  And doing them correctly requires substantial efforts.

You sound bureacratic. You should feel honoured by the extra promotion
that all the PHP content sites give you because your business depends on
PHP acceptance in the market. Why make it hard for sites that are
willing to help you in the end?

I think it is fair enough to make some base rules like don't be too
lame (define too lame), but almost everybody should be accepted.


 
 Ok, it is not fading out, but it is fading, meaning it is no longer the
 exciting thing that it seemed to be and was attracting some many people
 from everywhere.
 
 I disagree even with the toned-down version :)  I think that the Web as a
 medium is one of the most promising infrastructures around.  True, the hype
 is gone, but that's a good thing.  I don't think the hype moved anywhere
 else, it's just gone (for now :)

I guess you just say that because you were simply not affected by the
major Internet layoffs that happened in the latest months, so you don't
seem to have a great idea how bad this has been for so many people.

Of course the Internet is not gone. It just happens that the number of
companies with business depending on it was drastically reduced. So,
there aren't so much employment and business opportinities as before.
That's what I mean.

 
 It is not a matter of loosing that focus, but rather enlarge the focus
 of PHP that is adverstised for things that some people are already using
 it seriously.
 
 By definition of the word focus (well, almost), there's no real way to
 'enlarge' it without losing it.  We can play with words forever, though :)

Ok, I meant enlarging the focus area, but I agree, there's no point in
carrying on with playing with how each other expresses in English. :-)

 
 Anyway, lets just concentrate on the Web development focus. Web
 development is not just Web scripts that are served by the Web server.
 Web development is also, installing and maitaining applications and also
 run processes that run separately from the Web server.
 
 You know you can run PHP from the command line to do things like run
 database installation scripts or 

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-28 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Julio Nobrega Trabalhando wrote:
 
   Hi Manuel,
 
   Great post. I enjoyed the part where you said it would be a good idea to
 do some 'competition' with php programmers, sponsored by some company.

Actually, what I was suggested was not invented. It seems some body with
great interest to promote Python invented this Open Source Software
contest offering $100.000 in prizes. It is funny that they call it
Open Source software contest but the rules explicitly said that only
Python entries would be accepted. The contest was to develop software
development tools that would probably would cost that much if they
contracted qualified developers to write them on demand.

This way, not only they got the tools that they wanted all in Python,
developed by the best contenders, and even managed to promote Python as
if it is the big language of the century so that it would be the only
right choice for developing those tools! Yeah right! :-)

These guys resort to these marketing tricks to promote Python as hell,
and the PHP people just sits and waits doing almost nothing in
comparision to promote PHP as hard as they can even when they lives
depend on the acceptance of PHP as a wide spread language!

Look here to see the trick:

http://software-carpentry.codesourcery.com/contest-rules.html

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-28 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf

 These guys resort to these marketing tricks to promote Python as hell,
 and the PHP people just sits and waits doing almost nothing in
 comparision to promote PHP as hard as they can even when they lives
 depend on the acceptance of PHP as a wide spread language!

Manuel, please, give this tirade a rest.  Nobody associated with Python
development was involved in this amazing marketing trick you are
referring to.  Somebody just decided to do this on their own.  And now you
are criticizing the PHP developers for not having the same foresight as
the Python developers?

It says so right in their FAQ
(http://software-carpentry.codesourcery.com/faq.html)

And in answer to some of the more virulent postings on Usenet and in
 other venues, neither Guido van Rossum nor anyone else associated with
 Python development was involved in setting up this project, choosing the
 language, or defining the terms of the competition. Guido was only asked
 to be a judge after the decision to use Python had been made. If we
 had decided to use Perl or Tcl, we would obviously have invited Larry
 Wall or John Ousterhout to join the panel.

If somebody wants to put up $100,000 for a PHP software contest, perfect,
great, we will be every bit as cooperative as the Python developers.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-28 Thread mike cullerton

--On Tuesday, August 28, 2001 11:42 PM -0300 Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 These guys resort to these marketing tricks to promote Python as hell,
 and the PHP people just sits and waits doing almost nothing in
 comparision to promote PHP as hard as they can even when they lives
 depend on the acceptance of PHP as a wide spread language!

dear mr lemos,

 your ongoing participation in this thread has opened my eyes to views i 
had not considered before and caused me to revisit mine. however, the above 
is representative of where i think you and i disagree.

[please note that my thoughts here are really in response to the overall 
impression i received from reading all of your posts in this thread and i 
only include the above quote for my convenience. even though i'll mostly 
mention where you and i disagree, it doesn't mean i disagree with all that 
you say. indeed, i find your enthusiasm contagious and offer encouragement 
to you in your effort]

 one assumption you seem to have is the ongoing viability of php (if not 
the very livelihood of we the developers using php) is somehow a function 
of the number of folks who know what php is. that somehow the more folks 
know about php, the better php gets. it also seems that you feel 'the PHP 
people' are not putting forth enough effort to further php's acceptance and 
viability.

 from my point of view as a developer using php, recognition of php in the 
corporate world is not as important as how good php is. i prefer to see 
efforts focused on developing the best darn HTML-embedded scripting 
language this side of the railroad tracks. whether or not php gets talked 
about on the evening news doesn't really matter. what matters is whether 
php helps me as a programmer. i don't care how many folks recognize the 
power of php. i care about the power of php. the number of folks using php 
is a function of whether or not 'the PHP people' can continue to produce 
such rockin' code over the next few years. not the other way around.

 i imagine you have a unique perspective on the effort it takes to promote 
php. but, i'm guessing that 'the PHP people' probably do as well. i myself 
am unduly grateful for the effort that they put forth, not only in 
producing the rockin'st language anyone could have hoped for when learning 
to program, but in promoting php as well. when i saw php was featured at 
the open source convention in san jose, i knew things were moving along 
just fine. that's the kind of promotion i want to see. i believe 'the PHP 
people' should be allowed to promote php in a manner they are comfortable 
with. after all, it's their itch.

 ya know, making the best HTML-embedded scripting language seems a pretty 
noble goal to me.

 Regards,
 Manuel Lemos

have a good one,
mike

 -- mike cullerton

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-27 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 08:07 27-08-01, Robin Chen wrote:
This is very true.  I have a few ideas that I want to sell, but the only
way that I can do it with PHP is to give out the source, and the user is
expected to know how to install PHP and set up the script.  If I can
compile the PHP script, then I can sell the executables.  The users
would only have to copy the package into a directory and use it like a
cgi, and I won't have to worry about people looking into my codes.

Having executable takes care of 2 concerns I have if I want to sell a
solution.  First, with an executable, users don't have to install PHP on
their system to use my solutions.  Second, users cannot see my code.

Executables that don't require PHP to be installed on the target machine 
are unlikely to ever happen, because going down that route, you end up 
losing many technical features that PHP offers you (performance, and 
certain degrees of functionality).

Regarding source code hiding, you can use the Zend Encoder.  Pricing wise, 
the lowest you can get it for right now is $50/month, which may be too high 
for certain developers.

Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-27 Thread Alexander Skwar

So sprach »Zeev Suraski« am 2001-08-27 um 09:40:40 +0300 :
 Regarding source code hiding, you can use the Zend Encoder.  Pricing wise, 
 the lowest you can get it for right now is $50/month, which may be too high 
 for certain developers.

Uhm, really?  I mean, if you don't make $50/month, the developer doesn't
seem to be making a lot of money.  And for such micro-projects that such
a guy seems to be doing - why even care about hiding source code?

Alexander Skwar
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-27 Thread Julio Nobrega Trabalhando

  Hi Manuel,

  Great post. I enjoyed the part where you said it would be a good idea to
do some 'competition' with php programmers, sponsored by some company.

  For example, most times when I want a php script, either I go to
Hotscripts.com or Sourceforge.net.

  Sf.net, by rebound, makes me remind of VA Linux. It is a good example of
how to brand your name on the Open source community, by helping it.

  But back to the contests, I wish there was a large corporation that would
promote it between developers. Something like:

  1) We want to build a website for our B2B strategies.

  Then release the plan and specs for the whole world. Anyone can try to
build. Only one scripting language allowed, any database, or something
around these lines.. Later on, costs/time of
development/features/security/etc... would be considered, and a 'winner'
would be chosen.

  That would be hard to happen, since the folks at large corporations that
make these kind of decisions hire a 'team' based on various aspects,
specially what they heard that exists and recommendation of
friends/companies.

  Analisys of 'case-studies' is hardly done. They won't browse the web to
look for other solutions, either they will open the New York Times and read
'x-y-z did their site with (anything but php)'.

  So, what we need is to spread the word to the world that php was, and it
is, used on large sucessful projects. By gaining larger clients, media will
follow.

  But this opens a question, how to make the large corp see php (and of
course, the people who use it) as something worth?

  Basically, have another large corp to use it. How to get out of this loop?
This circle where something to happen it needs itself to happen?

  Maybe it is necessary to, contrary to what the community uncosciusly
believes, empower with resources only ONE 'thing', either a company or a
group of person.

  The common descentralization of power on open source might have to be
reviewed, but as always, carefully planned to produce results.

  At least, it is an idea ;-)
--

Julio Nobrega

A hora está chegando:
http://toca.sourceforge.net
Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
 Hello,

 Christopher Cm Allen wrote:
 
  
   I'm afraid that PHP is not yet very credible in that world. The truth
is
   there is not great marketing force behind PHP like there is Sun behind
   Java or Microsoft behind .Net
 
  Good point, and how does one go about marketing a language that is
  open-source?

 If you don't know it is because you are not very motivated to do it. So,
 the first step is to convince and motivate yourself that PHP needs to be
 marketed.

 As for what to do, instead of suggesting new ideas, I would rather
 recall some old ideas that always seemed to work well.

 For instance, provide PHP users compensation. It does not need to be
 financial compensation. It may be moral compensation as long as it is
 real compensation.

 For instance, if I am not mistaken, Guido Van Rossum, the Python
 creator, sponsored a contest to develop software development tools with
 cash prizes. Only a few won, but the contest attracted a lot of people
 and was even mentioned in prestiged software development magazines like
 Dr. Dobbs. This required some investment, but if you look around you
 will not have much trouble to find a sponsor.

 Another point is that they managed to get the media on their side. It
 seems that in the PHP community there is little effort to appeal to
 media. That is a major waste of oppiortunity because they can provide
 some much marketing for free.

 One free way to provide compensation to any PHP user is to promote their
 work. 2 years ago I started a repository of PHP Classes of objects that
 basically allow anybody to contribute regardless of the quality and
 utility that you may attribute to what is contributed.

 The point is that once users that anybody can have some fame to have his
 work exposed to a large PHP audience (over 40.000 subscribers), they
 want to contribute as well and the site grows thanks to the moral
 compensation that it offers to any PHP user.

 There are other class repositories, like the official PHP PEAR
 repository, but the scope is different because the contributions are not
 accepted arbitrarily, so you don't get as many contributors.

 Other than that, PHP resources sites like these should be officially
 linked altogether with things like Web rings. It would cause a much
 better impression to newcomers or ceptic people as it would make PHP
 more credible exposing the real level of support that the whole PHP
 community can provide. Unfortunately, the maintainers of PHP main site
 and Zend site do not seem to agree that it would be a good idea to
 promote other PHP resources sites with banners to pointing to them like
 what is done with Web rings.


 Ok, these are just a few ideas that would help PHP to be better
 marketed. They are not new and have already been discussed 

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-27 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 12:46 27-08-01, Alexander Skwar wrote:
So sprach »Zeev Suraski« am 2001-08-27 um 09:40:40 +0300 :
  Regarding source code hiding, you can use the Zend Encoder.  Pricing wise,
  the lowest you can get it for right now is $50/month, which may be too 
 high
  for certain developers.

Uhm, really?  I mean, if you don't make $50/month, the developer doesn't
seem to be making a lot of money.  And for such micro-projects that such
a guy seems to be doing - why even care about hiding source code?

I won't try to *convince* you that the pricing is too high :)

Zeev


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-26 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 05:36 26-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
The first problem is technical. You just keep developing PHP to satisfy
the user needs as soon as you perceive them and that's it.

I think we're doing that nicely, but it's quite true that meeting the 
technical needs is not enough.

The second problem is marketing. It doesn't matter for people that have
to make the decisions how much better PHP in fact is if people don't
hear about it. Even if they hear about it, it may not be enough if they
hear much more from the rest (Java, ASP.Net, C#, , whatever).

Here PHP looses bigtime. You may not want to believe me, but I am afraid
that unless PHP is better marketted, soon or later its market acceptance
will be weakened.

I think you're right here also, but only to a degree.  PHP has reached (or 
is quite close) to the critical mess it needs to penetrate the suite of 
'accepted solutions'.  As in, solutions which are covered by analysts and 
that exist within large organizations.  It's true that it took it some 5 
years or so to make this penetration (and it took .NET about -2 years), but 
that is the price you pay when you don't have gigantic marketing budgets to 
compete with.  Undoubtfully this is a problem, but the bottom line appears 
to be that we managed to overcome this, despite the lack of resources.

That's not my point. Some marketing is better than no marketing at all
which is what you do today. There are plenty of ways to do some
marketing on PHP that don't even cost money to you.

I don't think it's fair to say that there's no marketing today.  Well, 
forget fair, but I don't think it's accurate either :)  There are several 
good PHP sites, and there are a few companies advocating PHP as 
well.  Analysts are starting to cover PHP, and it's a fairly important 
landmark in PHP's penetration to the family of industry-adopted solutions.

At any rate, suggestions will be welcome.  I've seen the Web Developer Ring 
you suggested, and I think it's worth thinking (the reason I'm not going 
wild with enthusiasm is that I think it also has drawbacks, not only 
advantages).

oh, man Linux was a different story. Expecting a similar future for PHP
I'm afraid it may be wishful thinking. PHP is mostly focused on Web
development. Web market is fading out.

I agree with the first part of the paragraph, but completely disagree with 
the 2nd.  Web is not fading out, the .COM era is.  Web, as a medium, is 
here to stay, and on the long run, it's going to grow to be much larger 
than what it is today.

As for the similarities and dissimilarities of PHP and Linux, I think it's 
fair to say that it's pretty difficult to predict the way things will go 
with PHP in the enterprise, but I doubt it'll happen in a similar way to 
that of Linux.  Linux 'made it' when huge corporations like IBM started 
using it and advocating it, after smaller companies (like RedHat) managed 
to create enough hype to 'wake the giants'.  It's unlikely that such a 
giant will make the same choice with PHP, even if we just look at it from a 
statistical perspective.

Even if you can do non Web programming with PHP, most people are not
aware of that. You need to do some marketing to put in evidence that PHP
is as much capable for non-Web programming.

Given the fact that I don't see the Web going anywhere, I strongly 
disagree.  PHP's strength is in its focus to provide a good Web development 
framework.  Losing that focus would be a bad idea.
Projects like PHP-GTK are nice and for certain audiences they're also quite 
useful, but it's very wrong to assume that PHP's future lies in 
there.  There are too many languages in the world, including ones which are 
much more capable than PHP in the GUI programming area, and if we move the 
focus to this front, we're going to fight a lost battle.  In the Web front, 
on the other hand, we're doing quite well.

There you have another big problem that is there is no affordable way to
compile and generate executables from PHP programs. I know that
historically you never liked this ability into PHP programs, but that is
a vital need for people that will want to distribute their programs like
VB or Delphi programs.

If you mean native executables, then I have to disagree with you yet 
again...  I don't think native executables are the thing that's holding PHP 
back.  It's a direct deduction from my view that PHP's main course is the 
Web environment, where native executables simply do not make sense.
If you mean something else, I'll be happy to discuss this with you over 
personal email :)

Zeev


--
Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CTO   co-founder, Zend Technologies Ltd. http://www.zend.com/


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-26 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Zeev Suraski wrote:
 
 At 05:36 26-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
 The first problem is technical. You just keep developing PHP to satisfy
 the user needs as soon as you perceive them and that's it.
 
 I think we're doing that nicely, but it's quite true that meeting the
 technical needs is not enough.

Right.

 
 The second problem is marketing. It doesn't matter for people that have
 to make the decisions how much better PHP in fact is if people don't
 hear about it. Even if they hear about it, it may not be enough if they
 hear much more from the rest (Java, ASP.Net, C#, , whatever).
 
 Here PHP looses bigtime. You may not want to believe me, but I am afraid
 that unless PHP is better marketted, soon or later its market acceptance
 will be weakened.
 
 I think you're right here also, but only to a degree.  PHP has reached (or
 is quite close) to the critical mess it needs to penetrate the suite of
 'accepted solutions'.  As in, solutions which are covered by analysts and
 that exist within large organizations.  It's true that it took it some 5
 years or so to make this penetration (and it took .NET about -2 years), but
 that is the price you pay when you don't have gigantic marketing budgets to
 compete with.  Undoubtfully this is a problem, but the bottom line appears
 to be that we managed to overcome this, despite the lack of resources.

The merit of what was achieved without financial resources is not in
question. What is in question is what could and can be done even without
financial resources to make PHP be more accepted than it is today.


 That's not my point. Some marketing is better than no marketing at all
 which is what you do today. There are plenty of ways to do some
 marketing on PHP that don't even cost money to you.
 
 I don't think it's fair to say that there's no marketing today.  Well,
 forget fair, but I don't think it's accurate either :)  There are several
 good PHP sites, and there are a few companies advocating PHP as
 well.  Analysts are starting to cover PHP, and it's a fairly important
 landmark in PHP's penetration to the family of industry-adopted solutions.

I don't think we have the same understanding of what is marketing. For
me, marketing is being proactive in terms of promoting something before
the potential market. Seeing people advocating PHP or analysts covering
PHP here and there is not proactive at all. It is a result of the
evolution of PHP capabilities, but it was not something that was
especifically planned.

What I mean is there is a large potential market for PHP for which there
is no specific plan to address, not just in technical terms, but rather
in the message that that market is (not) getting about PHP suitability
for their needs.

You need to first watch the market and spot areas where people could be
using PHP but their are not, realize why they are not using PHP to
finally do something about it. As I said, it is not a technical problem,
but rather a people problem. 

 
 At any rate, suggestions will be welcome.  I've seen the Web Developer Ring
 you suggested, and I think it's worth thinking (the reason I'm not going
 wild with enthusiasm is that I think it also has drawbacks, not only
 advantages).

I don't know what drawbacks do you see, but let's discuss it openly.


 
 oh, man Linux was a different story. Expecting a similar future for PHP
 I'm afraid it may be wishful thinking. PHP is mostly focused on Web
 development. Web market is fading out.
 
 I agree with the first part of the paragraph, but completely disagree with
 the 2nd.  Web is not fading out, the .COM era is.  Web, as a medium, is
 here to stay, and on the long run, it's going to grow to be much larger
 than what it is today.

Ok, it is not fading out, but it is fading, meaning it is no longer the
exciting thing that it seemed to be and was attracting some many people
from everywhere.


 
 As for the similarities and dissimilarities of PHP and Linux, I think it's
 fair to say that it's pretty difficult to predict the way things will go
 with PHP in the enterprise, but I doubt it'll happen in a similar way to
 that of Linux.  Linux 'made it' when huge corporations like IBM started
 using it and advocating it, after smaller companies (like RedHat) managed
 to create enough hype to 'wake the giants'.  It's unlikely that such a
 giant will make the same choice with PHP, even if we just look at it from a
 statistical perspective.

Right, so be it, PHP will have to grow in the market without any giant
force behind it, at least for now. Let's consider that one extra
challenge for PHP future.

 
 Even if you can do non Web programming with PHP, most people are not
 aware of that. You need to do some marketing to put in evidence that PHP
 is as much capable for non-Web programming.
 
 Given the fact that I don't see the Web going anywhere, I strongly
 disagree.  PHP's strength is in its focus to provide a good Web development
 framework.  Losing that focus would be a bad idea.

It is 

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-26 Thread Zeev Suraski

At 23:02 26-08-01, Manuel Lemos wrote:
I don't think we have the same understanding of what is marketing. For
me, marketing is being proactive in terms of promoting something before
the potential market. Seeing people advocating PHP or analysts covering
PHP here and there is not proactive at all. It is a result of the
evolution of PHP capabilities, but it was not something that was
especifically planned.

Well, that's not quite true.  The analysts that are beginning to show 
interest are a result of efforts being made in certain companies.  As for 
advocating, I specifically mentioned companies and not people, which is 
what makes it pro-active.  I think our definitions for marketing are quite 
similar :)

  At any rate, suggestions will be welcome.  I've seen the Web Developer Ring
  you suggested, and I think it's worth thinking (the reason I'm not going
  wild with enthusiasm is that I think it also has drawbacks, not only
  advantages).

I don't know what drawbacks do you see, but let's discuss it openly.

Well, not all of the sites are of the same quality and enjoy the same 
maintenance level.  Such sites may have a good audience and may be a good 
service, but they won't necessarily do a good job at presenting PHP.  They 
may (will) also overlap in content, which would also not look very 
professional either.
Things like that are usually not that simple, or in other words, they're 
easier said than done.  If done sloppily, they can have a negative 
effect.  And doing them correctly requires substantial efforts.

Ok, it is not fading out, but it is fading, meaning it is no longer the
exciting thing that it seemed to be and was attracting some many people
from everywhere.

I disagree even with the toned-down version :)  I think that the Web as a 
medium is one of the most promising infrastructures around.  True, the hype 
is gone, but that's a good thing.  I don't think the hype moved anywhere 
else, it's just gone (for now :)

It is not a matter of loosing that focus, but rather enlarge the focus
of PHP that is adverstised for things that some people are already using
it seriously.

By definition of the word focus (well, almost), there's no real way to 
'enlarge' it without losing it.  We can play with words forever, though :)

Anyway, lets just concentrate on the Web development focus. Web
development is not just Web scripts that are served by the Web server.
Web development is also, installing and maitaining applications and also
run processes that run separately from the Web server.

You know you can run PHP from the command line to do things like run
database installation scripts or run cron scripts that execute periodic
tasks.

The truth is that most people are not aware of this. They think PHP can
only be run from the Web server to serve Web pages. I was suprised by
the number of people that was telling me that Perl is better for running
scripts from the command line. Duh?! Why? Because nobody told them
otherwise! This very wrong perception of the current PHP user base needs
urgent fixing! The fix needs not to be applied in PHP, but rather in PHP
users minds. PHP needs to be advertised as tool than can run scripts
from anywhere, like any other language. For starters, drop the
designation of PHP CGI version.

Could be.  The truth is that PHP *is* lacking in command line features if 
you compare it to Perl, because it was indeed never brought up to be a 
command line tool...

If people are already using PHP that way for serious purposes, why
neglect that it can be used that way? That only lets other languages
take over a space that PHP has already conquered.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but I've yet to see projects like PHP-GTK 
being used 'seriously'.  To make it clearer, I've yet to see an application 
which is actually written in PHP-GTK, and is being distributed or 
sold.  The day may come, but unlike the Web ring where we hold a huge 
chunk, I find it very hard to imagine seeing PHP taking a considerable 
chunk of the GUI market, ever.

The way I see, most people tend to only use one language at once. If
they see an alternative to PHP not only serves well for Web programming,
but also for non-Web programming, PHP will loose its user base there. It
is a matter of time until a lot of PHP people will start seeing it that
way.

It's really an issue of different opinions.  I think our focus should 
remain on the Web ring, because we can't enlarge it without losing it.  We 
can foster additional projects, such as PHP-GTK, improved command line 
features, etc., but the way I see it, if you want to define PHP in one 
sentence, the best qualifying one would still be 'A Server Side, HTML 
Embedded Scripting Language' (sorry Andrei ;).  It's true that it can be 
used in other ways, but that's the focus, and the rest are useful 'exceptions'.

No, I mean executables that may be just like VB executables that
basically contain PHP code compiled into Zend bytecodes or whatever is
enough for most people 

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-26 Thread Robin Chen

This is very true.  I have a few ideas that I want to sell, but the only
way that I can do it with PHP is to give out the source, and the user is
expected to know how to install PHP and set up the script.  If I can
compile the PHP script, then I can sell the executables.  The users
would only have to copy the package into a directory and use it like a
cgi, and I won't have to worry about people looking into my codes.

Having executable takes care of 2 concerns I have if I want to sell a
solution.  First, with an executable, users don't have to install PHP on
their system to use my solutions.  Second, users cannot see my code.

Robin

Manuel Lemos wrote:

 
 No, I mean executables that may be just like VB executables that
 basically contain PHP code compiled into Zend bytecodes or whatever is
 enough for most people be stopped from copy source code directly.
 
 A lot of people give up PHP because it does not provide affordable
 conditions to let them sell whole applications that others can't still
 their code, when they can just spend only US$100 or less in VB, Delphi,
 Java, Kylix, etc... suite and compile programs that they can distribute
 or sell to others without risking their business.
 
 There are a lot more other things to say on these subjects, but these
 should give you enough to think for a while. :-)
 
 Regards,
 Manuel Lemos
 
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-25 Thread Greg Beaver

As a small business owner (partner, actually),  I can address this question
below:

Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
 AFAIK, it costs a lot more money to have any start and operate a
 e-commerce business than a telephone. What is the motivation to spend
 that much money? Internet hype?

On our website, we use PHP/MySQL to serve up our complete schedule plus
juggle event requests from different kinds of people, maintain the look of
the site, and serve up audio clips.  There's also a large backend component,
including maintaining our contact lists (very important for a quartet), a
database of all music we know and composers, in order to generate a quick
program, our press kit, etc.  The PHP end has over 4000 lines of code and
MySQL has hundreds of tables.  We aren't involved in retail, but that may
change.

To start up the website for my string quartet, there were a few sunk costs.
The computer to develop on, the audio equipment to convert audio clips from
recordings to streaming content, and then there is the monthly fee for
hosting.

I already owned the computer, as I use it for other things like having a
computer in the house :).

total extra cost: $0

I bought the audio equipment in order to enable the quartet to master our
own CDs

total relevant cost: $0 (in fact, we saved over what it would cost to go to
a big studio)

The hosting fee is $10/month.
The registration fee for 2 domains (chiaraquartet.net/chiaraquartet.com) is
$70/year
internet access is free through the university we're in residence at.  cost:
$0

Total cost: $70+120=$190/year

Total cost for phone line: $30/month without long distance.

Total phone cost: $30*12 = $360/year

There you have it.  $360 is most definitely  $190.

Have we gotten any benefit off of the website?  After a year of hosting (and
not directly selling anything other than the quartet), several presenters
have approached us through the website to offer concerts that paid much more
than the cost of maintaining the website.  We've gotten the same benefit
from having a phone.

So, it is definitely worth it, even for a business completely unrelated to
technology or even retail sales.

Regards,
Greg Beaver
--
The Chiara String Quartet
http://www.chiaraquartet.net



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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-25 Thread hassan el forkani

hi
rasmus: PHP is not marketed the way Java and .NET is.  There are no 
multi-billion
dollar corporations behind PHP and asking us, and apparently me
personally, to make that happen is unrealistic;


true, but who can afford java and .net? oracle..., certainly not the small 
and medium size companies certainly not african companies certainly not 
south american companies...and i really belive that's where promotional 
efforts should go; technology awareness is still low there but the 
potential is huge and we africans are looking just for this: cheap and 
reliable technology, that we can learn from which is exactly what open 
source is about...

regards




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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-25 Thread Christopher CM Allen


Good Morning(CST USA here :))

 PHP is represented at every important technical conference right alongside
 Perl and Python.  When you hear someone talk about scripting languages,
 they will usually say Perl, Python and PHP.  I don't see any problem with
 the current state of PHP marketing in the technical community.

Is there any marketing done at various universitys? Beyond the the tech
market these are new recruits to the arena.
Has there ever been a poll done on where the people have picked up PHP? How
many people are exposed thru conferences-educational-facilities-book stores
etc?

Thanks,

CCMA


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-25 Thread Miles Thompson

This is an aside ...

At 02:08 AM 8/25/01 -0400, Cristopher Daniluk wrote:
After following this thread for a while, it seems like there is a lot of
discrepancy between what is success and what isn't for PHP. I do not
believe PHP will ever become the ubiquitous web language, if for no other
reason than because it isn't always the right choice for your web based
project.

Ubiquity comes from having a hammer, and treating everything like a nail. A 
person uses the tool he's comfortable with, and knows its quirks and 
shortcuts. I do not believe, despite periodic resurgence, that there will 
ever be one master language. Past candidates were ... Modula, ADA, 
Smalltalk  ... others? Remember the fifth generation computers?

The competent craftsman either uses the right tool, or knows how to quickly 
bodge something together with what is at hand. Same for programmers, of 
whatever sex.

PHP is already a strong option in many corporate environments.
Really from what I've seen lately, the only reason it loses out to Java, ASP
(uggh), or other similar options is that it is difficult to find a team of
qualified PHP developers. Even if you can get the project off the ground,
the continual maintenance is a problem.

I believe this does a great injustice to the many fine programmers who have 
mastered one or more languages, but have not yet encountered PHP. Anyone 
who has a sound working knowledge of  Java, ASP, Python or Perl, and is a 
competent programmer, would become productive very quickly in PHP. T'aint 
that difficult. Even a VB user may come to appreciate its brevity and 
conciseness. g

As for the maintenance issue, that relates more to design and judicious use 
of comments. It is very easy, particularly with PHP or ASP, to produce 
pages with a horrible, hard-to-follow commingling of straight HTML and 
scripting language, so that maintenance, for anyone, is very difficult. It 
is also easy to end up with obfuscated code in any of the main line, 
structured, languages.

Miles Thompson

Simply put, I think this means we
have great potential to have long term success, as far as penetrating the
corporate market. As employers start finding the qualified people out there,
and as people re-train/relearn, and as fresh meat comes out, the job market
will sustain our growth. I would say we don't need the multi-billion dollar
backing to be successful as well. Linux, as you particularly mentioned, is
shunned by a lot of suits, but it has grown - and that growth has sustained
itself over the last 10 years, more relevantly the last 4-5. It's starting
to get a little more attractive to suits as bigger and bigger and bigger
companies sponsor or use it. I envision PHP going down this road as well,
though I obviously don't expect the same grandeur that Linux has received.
We will achieve this by doing exactly what Rasmus said - developing a good
product. Though I must digress on the subject of technical conferences.
While they're valuable and by all means we should be there, I believe the
true value will come when people do our work for us - we need to prove to
the world that it is cool to use PHP, and they'll make sure all their
friends are cool too :)

Regards,


Cristopher Daniluk
President  CEO
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822
web: http://www.dsnet.net/


-Original Message-
From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 1:52 AM
To: Manuel Lemos
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


  So, it is very hard to convince the anybody to bet all the farm in PHP.
  You may have the technical arguments, but is not enough, I'm afraid.
 
  You in particular, may not need to convince others to bet on PHP, but it
  is nothing like that for most people that want to live from software
  development. They have to put up with work/business opportunities that
  the market offers to live from it. So, today, I'm afraid that you
  already still have an hard time to convince people to dedicate only to
  PHP, even those that know and believe PHP is that great.

PHP is represented at every important technical conference right alongside
Perl and Python.  When you hear someone talk about scripting languages,
they will usually say Perl, Python and PHP.  I don't see any problem with
the current state of PHP marketing in the technical community.

PHP is not marketed the way Java and .NET is.  There are no multi-billion
dollar corporations behind PHP and asking us, and apparently me
personally, to make that happen is unrealistic.  Like Linux 5 years ago,
PHP is adopted by the techies and somewhat shunned by the suits because
they haven't read about it in their latest advertisement-sponsored
magazine.

We can't possibly hope to compete with Sun and Microsoft when it comes to
suit-oriented marketing drivel.  What we can do is concentrate on what we
do best.  Writing a solid and very focused tool

RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-25 Thread Martin Wright

Hmmm.  Manuel what's that you're smoking?  Where can I get some?

M



-Original Message-
From: Manuel Lemos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 24 August 2001 20:30
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


Hello,

Egan wrote:
 
 On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:34:04 -0300, Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  Many small businesses would like to do e-commerce, but can't afford

  expensive consultants, expensive hardware, and expensive software 
  tools developed by huge corporations.
 
 e-commerce? You mean B2C? Can small business live from that? I'm 
 afraid not! Maybe I am wrong. :-)
 
 100 years ago you could easily do business without a telephone.  But 
 what percentage of businesses today operate without a telephone?
 
 A web presence with web commerce will become a utility like the 
 telephone.  Having it will be more important than measuring artificial

 distinctions between B2C vs. B2B.

Huh? That's a nice marketoid speech for you to talk Internet-ignorant
people to get into e-commerce, but what does that have to do with my
question?

Can small business live from e-commerce today?


 
  Look at all the large corporations bleeding money and cutting 
  staff. Mega-corporations are in decline, and their era is ending.  
  Long live the small business!
 
 What? Large business are being affected because the whole networking 
 business is in recession.
 
 Large corporations don't know you or care about you as an individual 
 customer.  You're just an account number to them.  The only thing they

 care about is the big sale to other big corporations.  But even 
 then, do they really care?  Not in my experience.
 
 The networking recession is just one symptom of their disease.

Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
investing in tech company stocks. Many Internet companies dried and
without cash from the investors many went bankrupt. That affected all
the small or big corporations that have grown and were dependent on the
networking market. I don't think this affected much non-technological
companies, big or small. So I don't think  your anti-big corporations
speech has much to do with this.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-25 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello Rasmus,

Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
 
  So, it is very hard to convince the anybody to bet all the farm in PHP.
  You may have the technical arguments, but is not enough, I'm afraid.
 
  You in particular, may not need to convince others to bet on PHP, but it
  is nothing like that for most people that want to live from software
  development. They have to put up with work/business opportunities that
  the market offers to live from it. So, today, I'm afraid that you
  already still have an hard time to convince people to dedicate only to
  PHP, even those that know and believe PHP is that great.
 
 PHP is represented at every important technical conference right alongside
 Perl and Python.  When you hear someone talk about scripting languages,
 they will usually say Perl, Python and PHP.  I don't see any problem with
 the current state of PHP marketing in the technical community.

I think that is not the largest part of the PHP community. Let me
explain: I believe the largest part of the community is made of those
that develop Web sites and applications for some one else and do it for
a living. Many of those don't always manage to make the technological
decisions, their bosses do.

There you have two problems: convince those bosses that PHP is still a
superior technical solution to solve their development needs as they
evolve, and then convince them that other languages/technologies that
have been also evolving are not yet as good as PHP, despite they have
been flooded of news from everywhere that they are much more advanced
and better for the developer needs.

The first problem is technical. You just keep developing PHP to satisfy
the user needs as soon as you perceive them and that's it.

The second problem is marketing. It doesn't matter for people that have
to make the decisions how much better PHP in fact is if people don't
hear about it. Even if they hear about it, it may not be enough if they
hear much more from the rest (Java, ASP.Net, C#, , whatever).

Here PHP looses bigtime. You may not want to believe me, but I am afraid
that unless PHP is better marketted, soon or later its market acceptance
will be weakened.

 
 PHP is not marketed the way Java and .NET is.  There are no multi-billion
 dollar corporations behind PHP and asking us, and apparently me

That's not my point. Some marketing is better than no marketing at all
which is what you do today. There are plenty of ways to do some
marketing on PHP that don't even cost money to you.


 personally, to make that happen is unrealistic.  Like Linux 5 years ago,
 PHP is adopted by the techies and somewhat shunned by the suits because
 they haven't read about it in their latest advertisement-sponsored
 magazine.

oh, man Linux was a different story. Expecting a similar future for PHP
I'm afraid it may be wishful thinking. PHP is mostly focused on Web
development. Web market is fading out.

Even if you can do non Web programming with PHP, most people are not
aware of that. You need to do some marketing to put in evidence that PHP
is as much capable for non-Web programming.

There you have another big problem that is there is no affordable way to
compile and generate executables from PHP programs. I know that
historically you never liked this ability into PHP programs, but that is
a vital need for people that will want to distribute their programs like
VB or Delphi programs.


 We can't possibly hope to compete with Sun and Microsoft when it comes to
 suit-oriented marketing drivel.  What we can do is concentrate on what we
 do best.  Writing a solid and very focused tool.  Building the grassroot
 community and being visible at all relevant technical conferences.  If we
 continue to do this, I see no reason for any dropoff in PHP popularity
 which leads directly to more and more corporate acceptance.

You believe in whatever you want, off course, but I think it is time to
adjust course. Assumming that the future of PHP is just a technical
matter, I'm affraid you are neglecting an important part of the
equation: the people. The needs and beliefs change through time.

I am try to show my current view of what people feel and need today that
I don't see addressed. You can see that and work on the changes if you
agree. I have more ideias if you care to work on that direction.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Christopher Cm Allen wrote:
 
 
  I'm afraid that PHP is not yet very credible in that world. The truth is
  there is not great marketing force behind PHP like there is Sun behind
  Java or Microsoft behind .Net
 
 Good point, and how does one go about marketing a language that is
 open-source?

If you don't know it is because you are not very motivated to do it. So,
the first step is to convince and motivate yourself that PHP needs to be
marketed.

As for what to do, instead of suggesting new ideas, I would rather
recall some old ideas that always seemed to work well.

For instance, provide PHP users compensation. It does not need to be
financial compensation. It may be moral compensation as long as it is
real compensation.

For instance, if I am not mistaken, Guido Van Rossum, the Python
creator, sponsored a contest to develop software development tools with
cash prizes. Only a few won, but the contest attracted a lot of people
and was even mentioned in prestiged software development magazines like
Dr. Dobbs. This required some investment, but if you look around you
will not have much trouble to find a sponsor.

Another point is that they managed to get the media on their side. It
seems that in the PHP community there is little effort to appeal to
media. That is a major waste of oppiortunity because they can provide
some much marketing for free.

One free way to provide compensation to any PHP user is to promote their
work. 2 years ago I started a repository of PHP Classes of objects that
basically allow anybody to contribute regardless of the quality and
utility that you may attribute to what is contributed.

The point is that once users that anybody can have some fame to have his
work exposed to a large PHP audience (over 40.000 subscribers), they
want to contribute as well and the site grows thanks to the moral
compensation that it offers to any PHP user.

There are other class repositories, like the official PHP PEAR
repository, but the scope is different because the contributions are not
accepted arbitrarily, so you don't get as many contributors.

Other than that, PHP resources sites like these should be officially
linked altogether with things like Web rings. It would cause a much
better impression to newcomers or ceptic people as it would make PHP
more credible exposing the real level of support that the whole PHP
community can provide. Unfortunately, the maintainers of PHP main site
and Zend site do not seem to agree that it would be a good idea to
promote other PHP resources sites with banners to pointing to them like
what is done with Web rings.


Ok, these are just a few ideas that would help PHP to be better
marketed. They are not new and have already been discussed before. It is
up to the people that have more active roles in the PHP community to
open their minds and pick them up. 


 I do it by not allowing FP like extensions on my server's. All of my custom
 apps are php or if need be I switch to C/perl.
 If I get pushed hard enough I will do c++ :)
 
 By your own words though , the  volume of users of a non-marketed php,
 compared to the users of  marketed Java et al. speaks for itself.
 Php holds its own..

But for how long?


 What if a group of developers/designers started marketing PHP?

Marketing does wonders. I should not need to to tell you that. One
problem seems to be some people in the PHP community have some kind of
aversion to the idea of that somebody can make money from free software.
That way you are ruling out people that can do a lot of good to the
growth of the PHP market. I think it is a matter of being more open
minded. The more opportunities you provide to others, the greater are
the chances that opportunities benefit your goals, in this case a a
wider acceptance of PHP making it more credible to people that basically
ignore it. 

ok, that's just me trying to be more constructive. :-)

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Egan wrote:
 
 On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:32:10 -0500, Christopher CM Allen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 hmmm, I might live in a smaller world than you but I find tons of  small to
 middle businesses that have no clue as to why or how things are done in
 applications(primarily web). Sure they know the buzz words of Java etc but
 when I come in and tell them I work with a certain tool set and that I can
 get it done for less $ and time they really don't care if I have a hammer or
 a mallet.
 
 Many small businesses would like to do e-commerce, but can't afford
 expensive consultants, expensive hardware, and expensive software
 tools developed by huge corporations.

e-commerce? You mean B2C? Can small business live from that? I'm afraid
not! Maybe I am wrong. :-)

 
 There is a vast market for web developers who use free software tools
 like Linux/Apache/PHP, and offer their services to small businesses at
 modest rates.
 
 Look at all the large corporations bleeding money and cutting staff.
 Mega-corporations are in decline, and their era is ending.  Long live
 the small business!

What? Large business are being affected because the whole networking
business is in recession. It was over-hyped for all these years because
of the Internet, so now everything is being brought down to the reality
because investors took the money from those companies. So, every other
dependent company was affected to some extent, large or small. I thought
this was clear to every body by now.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Egan

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:34:04 -0300, Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 
 Many small businesses would like to do e-commerce, but can't afford
 expensive consultants, expensive hardware, and expensive software
 tools developed by huge corporations.

e-commerce? You mean B2C? Can small business live from that? I'm afraid
not! Maybe I am wrong. :-)


100 years ago you could easily do business without a telephone.  But
what percentage of businesses today operate without a telephone?

A web presence with web commerce will become a utility like the
telephone.  Having it will be more important than measuring artificial
distinctions between B2C vs. B2B.

 
 Look at all the large corporations bleeding money and cutting staff.
 Mega-corporations are in decline, and their era is ending.  Long live
 the small business!

What? Large business are being affected because the whole networking
business is in recession.


Large corporations don't know you or care about you as an individual
customer.  You're just an account number to them.  The only thing they
care about is the big sale to other big corporations.  But even
then, do they really care?  Not in my experience.

The networking recession is just one symptom of their disease.

Why would anyone want to do business that way?  If I can find a small
business that sells the service or product I need, that's who gets my
business first.

If people ask how large my company is, I tell them We're large enough
to handle your business, and small enough to care.


Egan



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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Jeff Lewis

I actually had a talk with my boss today...

We discussed different technologies and why we chose them.  The reasons we
chose Java/JSP/J2EE etc:

1) Scalability (number 1 reason)
2) Different projects like EJB etc

I had been talking about PHP a lot and he says he likes it to but...

Jeff

 -Original Message-
 From: Egan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 2:53 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


 On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:34:04 -0300, Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  Many small businesses would like to do e-commerce, but can't afford
  expensive consultants, expensive hardware, and expensive software
  tools developed by huge corporations.
 
 e-commerce? You mean B2C? Can small business live from that? I'm afraid
 not! Maybe I am wrong. :-)


 100 years ago you could easily do business without a telephone.  But
 what percentage of businesses today operate without a telephone?

 A web presence with web commerce will become a utility like the
 telephone.  Having it will be more important than measuring artificial
 distinctions between B2C vs. B2B.


  Look at all the large corporations bleeding money and cutting staff.
  Mega-corporations are in decline, and their era is ending.  Long live
  the small business!
 
 What? Large business are being affected because the whole networking
 business is in recession.


 Large corporations don't know you or care about you as an individual
 customer.  You're just an account number to them.  The only thing they
 care about is the big sale to other big corporations.  But even
 then, do they really care?  Not in my experience.

 The networking recession is just one symptom of their disease.

 Why would anyone want to do business that way?  If I can find a small
 business that sells the service or product I need, that's who gets my
 business first.

 If people ask how large my company is, I tell them We're large enough
 to handle your business, and small enough to care.


 Egan



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Egan wrote:
 
 On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:34:04 -0300, Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  Many small businesses would like to do e-commerce, but can't afford
  expensive consultants, expensive hardware, and expensive software
  tools developed by huge corporations.
 
 e-commerce? You mean B2C? Can small business live from that? I'm afraid
 not! Maybe I am wrong. :-)
 
 100 years ago you could easily do business without a telephone.  But
 what percentage of businesses today operate without a telephone?
 
 A web presence with web commerce will become a utility like the
 telephone.  Having it will be more important than measuring artificial
 distinctions between B2C vs. B2B.

Huh? That's a nice marketoid speech for you to talk Internet-ignorant
people to get into e-commerce, but what does that have to do with my
question?

Can small business live from e-commerce today?


 
  Look at all the large corporations bleeding money and cutting staff.
  Mega-corporations are in decline, and their era is ending.  Long live
  the small business!
 
 What? Large business are being affected because the whole networking
 business is in recession.
 
 Large corporations don't know you or care about you as an individual
 customer.  You're just an account number to them.  The only thing they
 care about is the big sale to other big corporations.  But even
 then, do they really care?  Not in my experience.
 
 The networking recession is just one symptom of their disease.

Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
investing in tech company stocks. Many Internet companies dried and
without cash from the investors many went bankrupt. That affected all
the small or big corporations that have grown and were dependent on the
networking market. I don't think this affected much non-technological
companies, big or small. So I don't think  your anti-big corporations
speech has much to do with this.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Navid Yar

There are big players who have an eye on the open-source market right now,
IBM being the biggest contributor. HP recently released their own Linux
version on their desktop PCs and is marketing them as we speak. Microsoft is
planning on giving away just part of their source code in their future
products to software developers. Everyone has felt the heat on Open Source
technology, and everyone knows it is the way to go.

The only thing that is missing from most Open Source products, probably
excluding PHP, is user-friendliness. There are a lot of computer illiterate
people out there that have gotten used to the click and drag features that
make using an application so easy, but they never dream of going into a
command line and typing in something. Right now Linux is easy to use thanks
to the abundance of different GUIs out there, but there is no standard, like
Windows has. Also it is harder to set-up for newbies than Windows is (not
really, but for the newbie it's a whole different world). It is a new
concept that users must grab in order to make good use of it. There must be
a way that people can link MS-like features into Linux a bit more so that at
least it will make it easier for people to make that transition over to a
different OS and try it out. After it has the market share it needs, users
will have gotten used to Linux or BSD or whatever and we can do what MS
does, promote a bunch of Linux-specific features into the OS. By that time
they will have grabbed the concept of free so much that Windows would
sound ridiculously pricey (especially the licensing). MS can't afford to
give it's OS away for free, just like it could give away it's IE browser and
break Netscape. That's why Open Source is the first real challenge for MS in
15 years.

THEN follows the marketing, where everyone will be backing up Linux because
of it's popularity and low cost, compared to Windows. And we'll see Bill
Gates crawling on his knees and selling his Ferraris to pay his mortgage.
Wouldn't I love to see that, just kidding. Until Linux gets better at
certain things, I think I have no choice but to stick with Windows for now
(especially in the design area). Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

Navid

P.S. -- When I say Linux, I mean all Open Source products, including PHP.
Linux is just the driving force. And Christopher, keep up the promotion of
PHP, you have some great ideas. I want it to grow as much as you do. Thanks
:)


-Original Message-
From: Manuel Lemos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 12:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


Hello,

Christopher Cm Allen wrote:

 
  I'm afraid that PHP is not yet very credible in that world. The truth is
  there is not great marketing force behind PHP like there is Sun behind
  Java or Microsoft behind .Net

 Good point, and how does one go about marketing a language that is
 open-source?

If you don't know it is because you are not very motivated to do it. So,
the first step is to convince and motivate yourself that PHP needs to be
marketed.

As for what to do, instead of suggesting new ideas, I would rather
recall some old ideas that always seemed to work well.

For instance, provide PHP users compensation. It does not need to be
financial compensation. It may be moral compensation as long as it is
real compensation.

For instance, if I am not mistaken, Guido Van Rossum, the Python
creator, sponsored a contest to develop software development tools with
cash prizes. Only a few won, but the contest attracted a lot of people
and was even mentioned in prestiged software development magazines like
Dr. Dobbs. This required some investment, but if you look around you
will not have much trouble to find a sponsor.

Another point is that they managed to get the media on their side. It
seems that in the PHP community there is little effort to appeal to
media. That is a major waste of oppiortunity because they can provide
some much marketing for free.

One free way to provide compensation to any PHP user is to promote their
work. 2 years ago I started a repository of PHP Classes of objects that
basically allow anybody to contribute regardless of the quality and
utility that you may attribute to what is contributed.

The point is that once users that anybody can have some fame to have his
work exposed to a large PHP audience (over 40.000 subscribers), they
want to contribute as well and the site grows thanks to the moral
compensation that it offers to any PHP user.

There are other class repositories, like the official PHP PEAR
repository, but the scope is different because the contributions are not
accepted arbitrarily, so you don't get as many contributors.

Other than that, PHP resources sites like these should be officially
linked altogether with things like Web rings. It would cause a much
better impression to newcomers or ceptic people as it would make PHP
more credible exposing the real level of support that the whole PHP

Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Egan

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:30:04 -0300, Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 
Can small business live from e-commerce today?

What is the relevance of your question?  Do businesses live from
their telephone?  Whether they do or not, they need it in either case.


Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
investing in tech company stocks.


One mean judge all by himself, caused the NASDAQ crash, eh?

I am surely astounded to learn that!  Good day and goodbye!



Egan



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Sean C. McCarthy

Manuel Lemos wrote:
 
 Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
 started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
 practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
 investing in tech company stocks. Many Internet companies dried and
 without cash from the investors many went bankrupt. That affected all
 the small or big corporations that have grown and were dependent on the
 networking market. I don't think this affected much non-technological
 companies, big or small. So I don't think  your anti-big corporations
 speech has much to do with this.
 
 Regards,
 Manuel Lemos
 

No, recesion on the new economy started as the fact that the .com (or
dotcommers) companies did not develop with their market spectations.
Shareholders then started to not give any more credit to bussines
expectations and speculation stopped. Quarter after quarter with cash
looses, and even worse return on investement expectations, made the
shareholders move the money out of those companies and their confidence.
It is the way the dotcommers made bussines and SE speculation what
caused this problem.

Just as a point travelprice.com just announced that this is the first
quarter without losses before taxes. It just happened that they have
applied normal bussines strategies and bussines models.

Also the effect that this downturn is going through all the chain, from
transportation to food and goods. And BTW most companies that caused
this were startups not really big companies. Much more information on
this can be found on the Wall Street Journal.

Sean C. McCarthy
SCI, S.L. (www.sci-spain.com)

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Egan

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:40:47 -0500, Navid Yar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

Until Linux gets better at certain things, I think I have no choice but
to stick with Windows for now (especially in the design area).

True enough, for now.

Steam locomotives were an impressive technology, deeply entrenched
with 100 years or more of history.  They did not disappear from
railroads overnight.  But when the railroads realized it was cheaper
to operate diesel locomotives, the end of the steam era was just a
matter of time.


Egan



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Egan

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:54:33 +0100, Sean C. McCarthy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Also the effect that this downturn is going through all the chain, from
transportation to food and goods. And BTW most companies that caused
this were startups not really big companies. Much more information on
this can be found on the Wall Street Journal.

WSJ writers can believe whatever they like.

But I believe this:

Large corporations are like railroad steam locomotives whose era has
ended.  They may continue running for a while, but in time, many will
disappear like the steam locomotive did.


Egan



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Martín Marqués

On Vie 24 Ago 2001 16:50, Egan wrote:
 On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:30:04 -0300, Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 wrote:
 Can small business live from e-commerce today?

 What is the relevance of your question?  Do businesses live from
 their telephone?  Whether they do or not, they need it in either case.

 Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
 started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
 practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
 investing in tech company stocks.

 One mean judge all by himself, caused the NASDAQ crash, eh?

Even more: This person doesn't have the slightest idea of what he's saying. 
He knows nothing about the dot-com buissness, and why investment was heavilly 
done in that buissness, which was just vaporware.

DOT-COM is why NASDAQ crashed, not a mean-judge, who did the right thing.

Saludos... :-)

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Richard Lynch

 Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
 started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
 practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
 investing in tech company stocks.

This is the most warped view-point I have heard...

The NASDAQ crashed when investors finally figured out that all the dot-coms
they had sunk billions into never had *ANY* revenue at all, and no real plan
how to generate it, other than the IPO scam itself.

At a certain point, even Wall Street realizes that there has to be some
reality behind the numbers.

There was no question in my mind there would be a net-recession dot-bomb --
I'm surprised it took that long for the VCs to wise up.

Microsoft's problems had virtually nothing to do with the NASDAQ crash.

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Thomas Deliduka

Wait, you blame someone convicting microsoft for a recession? Give me a
break. Things were on the way out before it started.

Alan Greenspan was chasing the 'inflation' demon that didn't exist raising
interest rates when things were going great. It came back to bite him in the
arse with the collapse of the dot-coms.  Now he's cutting them even further
and we can barely break free.

On 8/24/2001 3:30 PM this was written:

 Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
 started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
 practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
 investing in tech company stocks. Many Internet companies dried and
 without cash from the investors many went bankrupt. That affected all
 the small or big corporations that have grown and were dependent on the
 networking market. I don't think this affected much non-technological
 companies, big or small. So I don't think  your anti-big corporations
 speech has much to do with this.

-- 

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IT Manager
 -
New Eve Media
The Solution To Your Internet Angst
http://www.neweve.com/



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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Mark Maggelet

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:25:08 -0400, Thomas Deliduka
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

Wait, you blame someone convicting microsoft for a recession? Give
me a break. Things were on the way out before it started.

Was that the cause? Not really, there were many causes and that was
just one of them.

Was that when it started? Yes, that's the way I remember it.



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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Dave

He also said he likes how Java is OOP and has great error handling.

sound more of a judgement on the staffs ability to program than the capability
of the language.  A great language can have crappy error handling if the
designed doesn't program it in well.

Dave


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Christopher CM Allen


 Large corporations are like railroad steam locomotives whose era has
 ended.  They may continue running for a while, but in time, many will
 disappear like the steam locomotive did.

hmm not according to Marx. ;p
Anyways,
back on topic, how to promote php and who is going to do it? Who is in a
position to offer a coding competition like Mr Lemos suggested?
Who has the $'s that is willing to support it?  Is this something that needs
to be run through the PHP GROUP?

--ccma


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Michael Kimsal



Jeff Lewis wrote:

I actually had a talk with my boss today...

We discussed different technologies and why we chose them.  The reasons we
chose Java/JSP/J2EE etc:

1) Scalability (number 1 reason)
2) Different projects like EJB etc

I had been talking about PHP a lot and he says he likes it to but...

Jeff

What specifically about scalability and Java is he thinking of?  I'm not 
saying at all
that large scaleable sites aren't run under Java.  But what does your 
company need
to do that Java can that PHP can't?  There may be some issues, but there 
may not.

Scaleability costs money.  Yes, perhaps Java can scale.  If I had a six 
figure budget, PHP
would 'scale' too - more hardware.  But how much are people willing to 
spend?




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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Jeff Lewis

I would't say that.  he says it's modular and easier to code in OOP.

Jeff

 -Original Message-
 From: Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:15 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Kimsal
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [PHP] The future of PHP
 
 
 He also said he likes how Java is OOP and has great error handling.
 
 sound more of a judgement on the staffs ability to program than 
 the capability
 of the language.  A great language can have crappy error handling if the
 designed doesn't program it in well.
 
 Dave
 
 
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Richard Lynch

 Can small business live from e-commerce today?

Define small.
Define e-commerce.

How about this one, doing *EXTREMELY* well selling CDs online:

http://CDBaby.com/

Of course, that has almost nothing to do with his choice of PHP (the
language he could understand the easiest) and everything to do with
intelligent business decisions on the back-side.

No VC.
No we'll make money later.
Just great service at a fair price.

I'm sure there are others out there.

*CAN* it be done?  Sure.

Can the idiots who invested millions in companies with a business plan that
involved *NO* revenue model make it?  No.

As far as the future of PHP is concerned, all I can say is:  Scoreboard
:-)

Does Netcraft or e-Soft show JSP surpassing PHP?  No.

Do you really think PHP will go stagnant at this point?  Try looking at the
CVS logs.

Are you going to convince some Java-kid that he's wrong?  No.

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Egan wrote:
 
 On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:30:04 -0300, Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 Can small business live from e-commerce today?
 
 What is the relevance of your question?  Do businesses live from
 their telephone?  Whether they do or not, they need it in either case.

AFAIK, it costs a lot more money to have any start and operate a
e-commerce business than a telephone. What is the motivation to spend
that much money? Internet hype?



 Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
 started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
 practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
 investing in tech company stocks.
 
 One mean judge all by himself, caused the NASDAQ crash, eh?
 
 I am surely astounded to learn that!  Good day and goodbye!

Maybe that is because I am not a native English speaker. Maybe if I
change the word caused by the word triggered in my sentence it will
be more accurate.

Anyway, other than that, I read the messages ahead and it sounds that
most people really forget the series of events that started NASDAQ
crash. Maybe these links will remind you what happen after April 3,
2000:

Bad news started here:
http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2000/04/03/technology/microsoft/

The day after:
http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2000/04/04/technology/special_techstocks/

If you were on vacation then and did not notice how did that happen,
there's one more reason to blame Microsoft! :-)

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Thomas Deliduka

Most of my stuff is mingled right with the HTML. Heh. I guess I haven't
advanced to the all-code-no-html formatting. :-)

Mainly it's like that because I work with a team of designers, They make the
shell of the site, I then have to fill in the code. I'm sure many of you
will say y'all do it the same way but don't mingle your code. I guess I have
to figure it out.

On 8/24/2001 6:37 PM this was written:

 PHP can be extremely sloppy or coded extremely modularly.  I think it's
 a shame that
 most tutorials on PHP (and ASP, from what I've experienced) show
 comingling of code
 and HTML - far more than we ever do in day-to-day PHP work.  People get the
 impression that that's the only way to do stuff, and it's not.  It's
 often the QUICKEST
 way for small projects (I needed a quick contact form yesterday and
 built one in a couple
 minutes with PHP.  I don't think it would have been that painless under
 Java.)
 But we use PHP on some very large projects too - it requires you to
 plan ahead -
 but that should be the basis for any project, regardless of technology.  :)

-- 

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IT Manager
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The Solution To Your Internet Angst
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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Michael Kimsal wrote:
 
 I've asked for help on this before, and will ask again - I've got a
 framework up at
 phpshowcase.com which allows people to post their own project details about
 PHP deployments,  large and small.  A growing information store there
 would be one
 avenue to help promote PHP.  So many times on this list people say 'I
 want a list of
 big PHP sites'.  Let's pool that information into one area.  Anyone else
 care to contribute
 their info?

If you read my previous message about marketing PHP, notice how I try to
highlight that you really need to motivate people to contribute.

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Manuel Lemos

Hello,

Richard Lynch wrote:
 
  Can small business live from e-commerce today?
 
 Define small.
 Define e-commerce.
 
 How about this one, doing *EXTREMELY* well selling CDs online:
 
 http://CDBaby.com/
 
 Of course, that has almost nothing to do with his choice of PHP (the
 language he could understand the easiest) and everything to do with
 intelligent business decisions on the back-side.
 
 No VC.
 No we'll make money later.
 Just great service at a fair price.
 
 I'm sure there are others out there.
 
 *CAN* it be done?  Sure.
 
 Can the idiots who invested millions in companies with a business plan that
 involved *NO* revenue model make it?  No.

What is doing extremely well? Do you know that from facts or you have
just been told?

If they are really doing so well because they have a business plan with
a revenue model, why do they succeed when others that also have a
business plan with revenue model don't?

Would their model work outside the US?


 As far as the future of PHP is concerned, all I can say is:  Scoreboard
 :-)
 
 Does Netcraft or e-Soft show JSP surpassing PHP?  No.
 
 Do you really think PHP will go stagnant at this point?  Try looking at the
 CVS logs.
 
 Are you going to convince some Java-kid that he's wrong?  No.

All I can say to you is that there was then, then there is now and
later we'll see.

Meaning, in the past PHP has grown its user base because it was advanced
for Web development compared to other languages, now other languages are
catching up, later we'll see if PHP will keep its popularity when there
is nobody marketing it assuring that PHP is a credible brand as
programming language.


Anyway, once in a while I bother to make (intentionally) constructive
criticisms to the way PHP development and its community are going.
Usually I get a some of nay -sayers, tipically in denial, trying to
contradict me. So, I am kind of used to it. Depite of that, it is
interesting that given some time I can see some positive reaction
towards what I say, although not admiting that I influenced their views. 

Never mind, as long as people end up listening and taking some positive
action, it was worth spending my very scarce free time. :-)

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Manuel Lemos

Richard Lynch wrote:
 
  Do you really believe that? As far as I can recall, this recession
  started when a mean judge convicted Microsoft for anti-trust
  practices. That caused NASDAQ crash that scared people away from
  investing in tech company stocks.
 
 This is the most warped view-point I have heard...
 
 The NASDAQ crashed when investors finally figured out that all the dot-coms
 they had sunk billions into never had *ANY* revenue at all, and no real plan
 how to generate it, other than the IPO scam itself.
 
 At a certain point, even Wall Street realizes that there has to be some
 reality behind the numbers.
 
 There was no question in my mind there would be a net-recession dot-bomb --
 I'm surprised it took that long for the VCs to wise up.

Exactly. :-)

 
 Microsoft's problems had virtually nothing to do with the NASDAQ crash.

You do know that Microsoft conviction started NASDAQ crash, don't you?
(see the links in my other message)

Of course, Microsoft did not cause it (unless you believe in the theory
of conspiracy ) :-)

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Dave

personally I would say the same about PHP...

I include a select collection of pages with functions that have been
preprogrammed...  interacting with other files, sites ,server programs,
databases... and so forth as necessary.

select the right function, enter variables...

the only real work done is in fine tuning or developing new master functions...

to each thier own

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Jeff Lewis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:22 PM
To: Dave; Michael Kimsal
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] The future of PHP


I would't say that.  he says it's modular and easier to code in OOP.

Jeff

 -Original Message-
 From: Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:15 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Kimsal
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [PHP] The future of PHP


 He also said he likes how Java is OOP and has great error handling.

 sound more of a judgement on the staffs ability to program than
 the capability
 of the language.  A great language can have crappy error handling if the
 designed doesn't program it in well.

 Dave


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Dave

PHP can be extremely sloppy or coded extremely modularly.  I think it's
a shame that
most tutorials on PHP (and ASP, from what I've experienced) show
comingling of code
and HTML - far more than we ever do in day-to-day PHP work.  People get the
impression that that's the only way to do stuff, and it's not.  It's
often the QUICKEST
way for small projects (I needed a quick contact form yesterday and
built one in a couple
minutes with PHP.  I don't think it would have been that painless under
Java.)


Often I have found though that those asking questions are limited in their
ability to understand the finer programming methods though...

you give an explanation that uses arrays and functions and end up getting a I
don't understand or why does that do that...   and I consider those two the
bare essentials for working smartly with PHP.

Dave


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf

 So, it is very hard to convince the anybody to bet all the farm in PHP.
 You may have the technical arguments, but is not enough, I'm afraid.

 You in particular, may not need to convince others to bet on PHP, but it
 is nothing like that for most people that want to live from software
 development. They have to put up with work/business opportunities that
 the market offers to live from it. So, today, I'm afraid that you
 already still have an hard time to convince people to dedicate only to
 PHP, even those that know and believe PHP is that great.

PHP is represented at every important technical conference right alongside
Perl and Python.  When you hear someone talk about scripting languages,
they will usually say Perl, Python and PHP.  I don't see any problem with
the current state of PHP marketing in the technical community.

PHP is not marketed the way Java and .NET is.  There are no multi-billion
dollar corporations behind PHP and asking us, and apparently me
personally, to make that happen is unrealistic.  Like Linux 5 years ago,
PHP is adopted by the techies and somewhat shunned by the suits because
they haven't read about it in their latest advertisement-sponsored
magazine.

We can't possibly hope to compete with Sun and Microsoft when it comes to
suit-oriented marketing drivel.  What we can do is concentrate on what we
do best.  Writing a solid and very focused tool.  Building the grassroot
community and being visible at all relevant technical conferences.  If we
continue to do this, I see no reason for any dropoff in PHP popularity
which leads directly to more and more corporate acceptance.

-Rasmus


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RE: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-24 Thread Cristopher Daniluk

After following this thread for a while, it seems like there is a lot of
discrepancy between what is success and what isn't for PHP. I do not
believe PHP will ever become the ubiquitous web language, if for no other
reason than because it isn't always the right choice for your web based
project. PHP is already a strong option in many corporate environments.
Really from what I've seen lately, the only reason it loses out to Java, ASP
(uggh), or other similar options is that it is difficult to find a team of
qualified PHP developers. Even if you can get the project off the ground,
the continual maintenance is a problem. Simply put, I think this means we
have great potential to have long term success, as far as penetrating the
corporate market. As employers start finding the qualified people out there,
and as people re-train/relearn, and as fresh meat comes out, the job market
will sustain our growth. I would say we don't need the multi-billion dollar
backing to be successful as well. Linux, as you particularly mentioned, is
shunned by a lot of suits, but it has grown - and that growth has sustained
itself over the last 10 years, more relevantly the last 4-5. It's starting
to get a little more attractive to suits as bigger and bigger and bigger
companies sponsor or use it. I envision PHP going down this road as well,
though I obviously don't expect the same grandeur that Linux has received.
We will achieve this by doing exactly what Rasmus said - developing a good
product. Though I must digress on the subject of technical conferences.
While they're valuable and by all means we should be there, I believe the
true value will come when people do our work for us - we need to prove to
the world that it is cool to use PHP, and they'll make sure all their
friends are cool too :)

Regards,


Cristopher Daniluk
President  CEO
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822
web: http://www.dsnet.net/


-Original Message-
From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 1:52 AM
To: Manuel Lemos
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


 So, it is very hard to convince the anybody to bet all the farm in PHP.
 You may have the technical arguments, but is not enough, I'm afraid.

 You in particular, may not need to convince others to bet on PHP, but it
 is nothing like that for most people that want to live from software
 development. They have to put up with work/business opportunities that
 the market offers to live from it. So, today, I'm afraid that you
 already still have an hard time to convince people to dedicate only to
 PHP, even those that know and believe PHP is that great.

PHP is represented at every important technical conference right alongside
Perl and Python.  When you hear someone talk about scripting languages,
they will usually say Perl, Python and PHP.  I don't see any problem with
the current state of PHP marketing in the technical community.

PHP is not marketed the way Java and .NET is.  There are no multi-billion
dollar corporations behind PHP and asking us, and apparently me
personally, to make that happen is unrealistic.  Like Linux 5 years ago,
PHP is adopted by the techies and somewhat shunned by the suits because
they haven't read about it in their latest advertisement-sponsored
magazine.

We can't possibly hope to compete with Sun and Microsoft when it comes to
suit-oriented marketing drivel.  What we can do is concentrate on what we
do best.  Writing a solid and very focused tool.  Building the grassroot
community and being visible at all relevant technical conferences.  If we
continue to do this, I see no reason for any dropoff in PHP popularity
which leads directly to more and more corporate acceptance.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

2001-08-23 Thread Kai Schaetzl

 JSP is the wave of the future


As was said two years ago about Java. Does anybody still know about 
Java? ;-)


Kai

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